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Roz: “WELL IDK WHAT THIS IS SO CLASS DISMISSED I GUESS”
Wonder what Dorothy’s reaction would be
Nothing much, she is busy writing thesis on her phone.
More likely frantically studying calculus. Which as I have learned is a terrible way to study calculus. The best way to study calculus is to do calculus. Even if the problems are deliberately stupidly convoluted.
Yup. That’s why her current grim determination is not only sad, it’s conraproductive as well.
Yeah had a friend who is an honor student and hit statistics in college (and partly thanks to a HS that had a poor math curriculum) was unprepared and spend a solid week cramming with friends (paid for with copious amounts of drink) to catch up and understand it. So yeah doesn’t seem that uncommon for even a smart student to hit a math subject like a brick wall to their progress.
Dorothy probably isn’t struggling with calculus. She’s not in that class, the one she’s struggling with is a different one.
Muffin effin heck yeah!
carla, marcie and sal aren’t even in this classroom
it occurs to me that this might be an allegory for a certain current U.S. president’s administration but idk???
It’s like Leslie planned this all along.
You mean, she planned this lesson for Roz?
Like, in a lesson plan?
You are what we call a smartass. (But I did chuckle at this comment.)
Okay, I recant my earlier statement:
I don’t think Roz will have any difficulties teaching a class on this subject. It’s one she knows a lot about.
She has personal experience and everything~!
The delay was the hovertext changing, wasn’t it.
What was the alt-text before then?
1) Changing the hovertext doesn’t delay the strip. Auto-update stops for no man.
2) The hovertext wasn’t changed.
3) I want pizza.
When you realize Willis loves pizza more than you love pizza: He somehow fits it into every conversation ever.
See, now I want pizza. I didn’t actually want pizza until someone mentioned pizza and now I want pizza.
Well, I just had pizza yesterday!
Have you ever kinda wanted something at the same times as kinda not wanting it because you just had it? Because that’s me right now.
I am more of a “I want it, but I shouldn’t have it because I just had it”. Like, I feel guilty.
And then I eat pizza anyway.
This is why you eat pizza before loading DoA
Maggie: “Hey hon. What are you doing?”
Willis: “Nothing much. But boy, nothing sure would be better if I had pizza.”
Careful with that syntax.
I know, I know! The package had the little fragile sticker on it! I’ll be carefull
*Maggie walks in to see Willis, sprawled out on the bed, in his undergarments, shoving an entire pizza into his mouth, empty boxes scattered across the floor*
Willis: “Honey, it’s not what it looks like. Okay, it’s exactly what it looks like.”
Maggie: “We need to get you to the hospital before you die of acute cholesterol poisoning.”
Willis: “I HAVE NO REGRETS”
You misspelled ‘regerts”. You should brush up on your tattoo-reading skills.
Dammit, now I want pizza. Haven’t had any in months.
Now I want tacos because of your name! Or maybe taquitos. Mmm…
Dammit, I’m also craving food
Food, glorious food ♪♬
ummm, hot crumpets and butter …
Someone somewhere totally put tacos on a pizza. It was ridiculous, but maybe you want that?
Oh, god. I’m so sorry. I didn’t know. Just know that you are surrounded by people who love you. You are strong and you can get through this.
Oh. It usually changes right on the minute for me, so I made assumptions.
And that in mind, WELLER PLAYED, WILLIS.
Go get pizza, you deserve pizza for this strip.
What kind of pizza? Cheese? Pepperoni? Meat-lovers’? Vegetarian? Supreme? Greek? Veegan? Hawaiian? S’mores?
mac & cheese
Wait. Mac and Cheese pizza is a thing?
Of course it’s a thing! Is there any topping you madmen won’t try to put on pizza?! Is nothing sacred anymore?!
Researchers have attempted the pizza-pizza, a pizza with many smaller pizzas scattered all over it, but they were sued by Little Ceasar’s before they could put their plans into action.
so it’s Ohio that is the keystone state
I found out it’s actually Pennsylvania… Sorry, i’m not American.
That sounds seriously good. Imagine rolling it too.
In the fabled city of London, you can get macaroni and cheese in a burger.
What’s the alt text now? I haven’t figured out how to read it on mobile Firefox yet…
To answer your question, it’s: “And then everyone in class laughs and leaves.” As for reading the alt text on firefox mobile, tap the empty space below the strip to either side of the navigation pane and the webpage will darken and the alt text will show up on top of it.
Delay? Compared with the perceived average, this strip is early.
Joyce is still surprised in first panel
That doesn’t look like surprise to me so much as a feeling that reality is crumbling. Even after all she’s been through, Joyce can’t immediately process an authority figure so completely blowing off responsibility.
That was masterfully done, and I love Leslie so much.
I’m not even sure I know what most of that means.
It basically means what everybody loves to accuse Roz of. People who want to collect ally points like brownie points and shouting over the people they claim to defend.
Well then I guess I should jusy parrot a “well played” comment and move on…..Let’s talk about whether Joyce will get extra credit for lending Becky out to confront a shameful politician.
It basically means what everybody loves to accuse Roz of.
I’m sitting this one out.
No you’re not.
Fine, I’ll crouch!
Crouching is weird, ontologically speaking. It’s both sitting and standing, and yet neither. Crouching is to posture as Nora Reed is to gender.
Just make sure you don’t fart when you’re crouching, least of all because I’m not sure what farting represents in this sitting-things-out metaphor.
The answer is obviously squatting. Like a true Slav.
They sits on their pantz and dance!
Hunker down, far better.
*grabs* Get back here you!
People outside a marginalized community – say, straight people – talking over people inside the community in such a way that the marginalized people don’t actually get to set the message. You know, that thing Roz does.
It also happens a lot in slash fandom. Where people claim to be LGBT allies by demanding their fave slash pairing to become canon. And then that’s pretty much the limit of their ally ship. They often tend to do it in such a way that they attack actual LGBT people, erase and/or ignore canonically LGBT characters (especially when those characters are poc), and generally do it in a way that is more about fetishization rather than wanting actual representation.
Caaaan we not?
Slash fandom has been found through every poll we’ve ever conducted to be mostly LGBTQIAPN+ people. The people most guilty of what you’re talking about are fourteen-year-olds, who, yeah, big surprise, are not always doing or saying the smartest stuff. They tend to grow out of it, and usually realize later on that they weren’t as straight and cis as they thought they were.
But boy am I tired, both as a ~slash fan~ and a queer woman myself, of having this friggin niche hobby and particularly a group of us almost completely made up of teens, treated as a major vector for oppression.
Yes, some girl made a total ass of herself over Viktor/Yuuri and what’s happening in Russia right now. On her actual blog she has apologized multiple times and knows now why what she said was so awful, but she is so incredibly obviously a kid, and her intentions were still good. (She was trying to use her fandom’s love of the ship to energize them towards protest. Awkward as hell yes but not malicious.)
Like, racism is a big problem in every community so of course it’s also a problem in the slash fandom, but the rest of this? No. And I say that as someone who was materially harmed by the lesbophobia in the fandom when I was coming of age; even with that, it was still the only space I had available for exploring what being not-straight meant at ALL, and the solution is not to burn it down or treat it like one of the major sources of LGBTQIAPN+ oppression and fetishization.
If we work on making society as a whole less pericisheterosexist (and misogynistic), I expect slash fandom will just much more obviously become queer fandom: young and old queer people telling our own stories, instead of always feeling the sometimes-subconscious need to couch those stories in terms of usually-white cis gay men. But the issues slash fandom has are being caused, for example, by larger problems with mainstream media; meanwhile, none of the problems in MSM are being caused by what is regarded as a weird and somewhat gross thing women do to get their rocks off.
It’s easy to target slash fandom because it’s small and weak and filled with marginalized people; it’s much easier prey than mainstream media, and some of the same problems exist in it!
But I would caution that targeting it is not only ultimately unhelpful but also kinda counterproductive.
The people most harshly and deeply impacted by the rhetoric that says slash fandom is a bunch of gross straight women with an oppression fantasy? Gay trans men, who are absolutely caught in the crossfire of the nastiest shit that is thrown at “straight women who dare to think they can ~identify~ with gay men”.
(If you haven’t seen people literally accuse “straight” “women” of pretending to be gay men, mocking presumed fake search for identity, then you’re lucky, but I’ve both seen it and heard testimony from trans men who were hurt by this.)
TL;DR: I don’t think slash fandom’s influence is big enough for it to be worth spending energy attacking. I also think a lot of this criticisms of it are unfair, and that the people hurt by the attacks are more worth protecting than the actual targets (mostly very young girls, since straight women tend to “grow out” of slash after a while) are worth attacking.
this is a good post.
the one about the problem of targeting slash i mean woops.
I’m actually primarily talking about sterek fandom.
I’m a slash fan myself, so believe me, I don’t have a problem with slash as a general rule. What I do have a problem with is people who ‘claim’ they’re all for LGBT representation, yet at the same time will do anything to ignore and/or erase actual canonically LGBT characters. I’m talking about the people who wanted to boycot an episode that featured a major scene between two LGBT characters(one of whom was a poc), because they weren’t getting their fave white boy pairing.
I’m talking about the kind of people who’d call actual LGBT people homophobic, because they don’t ship their ship. As in, some of these people literally called a lesbian I know, homophobic, because she refused to buy into their ship. (and she refused to do so, because canon gave no actual scenes of these characters interacting in a way other than despise from one side, and at best annoyance from the other char)
We’re talking about people who refused to even consider ships with way more subtext and basis in canon, and when you look at the ships most ignored by these people, the ‘funny’ bit is that those slash ships that they ignored, erased, and/or sidelined almost always involved characters of color, including the show’s actual Latino lead character.
and then there’s my issue, which is the erasure of close but platonic friendships in favor of “two hawt _____s? they must be smoochin’ and/or bangin’, or should be!”
sorry but unless ur a queer man you dont really get to say how harmful slash fandom is. that yuuri on ice thing is not the only instance of toxic slash fandom culture.
as a trans queer man, slash fandom culture has made me grow up feeling ashamed and dirty. it reduces me and my sexuality to a fetish for (admittedly mostly straight) women to consume.
tbh i’d much rather deal w “dont erase platonic relationships” than ppl who only pretend to support me bc they want to jack off to my love life
“through every poll we’ve ever conducted”
Wait, what? This is actually a topic of study?
By what flavor of ‘we’?
Yes. It is very easy to forget to remember to actually TALK to the marginalized group you want to help and ASK them what THEY would like to see happen. I think being a good ally means being there for them, but kind of in the wings keeping an eye on situations. If it’s appropriate for you to come out and say something, then do it, but just don’t be so overwhelming that you drown out their voices. Be mindful and really think before you do or say something so you don’t do more harm. I think many have good intentions, but just don’t know how to go about it.
You might have heard “Performative allyship” phrased as “virtue signaling” from certain corners of the internet that aren’t always favorable to social justice. It’s basically the idea of people make a big show of being an ally in order to gain some real or imagined benefit.
While right-wingers like to accuse *all* allies of being performative/virtue-signaling, especially straight ones who make a living off comics centered on LGBT issues (*cough*), the one example in the scene that everyone can agree upon is Dresden Codak’s Aaron Diaz.
Magnolia Porter (Monster Pulse) outlines Diaz’s issues here: http://magnoliapearl.tumblr.com/post/95746827414/an-open-letter-to-aaron-diaz
But the basic tl;dr is talking the talk while not walking the walk, and talking over (“de-amplifying”) marginalized voices.
I always knew there was a reason I didn’t like Diaz. I just thought it was that I grew overly attached to a character who then became a traitor for no discernible reason. But now I can retroactively change my own narrative to convince myself that I realized all along that he was a performative ally!
…I’m sure there’s something wrong with that, but I can’t be bothered to figure it out.
huh. shows what I (and my privilege) know: I’d never really figured Diaz was advocating for anything but casting off our inferior meatbodies and embracing the Amazing and Perfect Transhumanist Future with both arms all motile effectors.
Even without reading that letter, I’m aware of some low key shit Diaz has said that wasn’t so bad, but I’m not going to be surprised if this turns up some performative nonsense on his part.
But just to point something out here, the whole transhumanist thing, aside from being fairly badly evidenced as a series of predictions, is also ultimately classist in nearly every iteration, because it doesn’t really focus on the idea of getting, well, /everyone/ their transhuman enhancements (whatever form they might take). And that’s without nonsense like the Basilisk.
*Checks* Oh. Oh no. He did that nonsense where he said the fictional characters had agency to justify posting sexy shit. That shit is so fucking exhausting.
Honestly, if you’re a creator and you feel the need to justify posting sexy shit, then you’ve already hopelessly crossed your genres and need to start over.
Or, to expand on your point Lailah, it’s also literally only one step away from eugenics on the euphemism treadmill, and when you get that bunch of creeps talking, it shows. Even with the anarchists.
Not to mention, it was from TH communities that neoreaction was spawned – turns out, when you get a bunch of nerds talking about being the master race through machines and genes, old school master race ideas aren’t far behind.
And that’s before you get to my particular pet peeve, that bunch claiming us trans folks as mascots.
This. Or rather, I figured Dias was telling a science-fiction story, that like many of the better genre works produced by men, still takes time out to do ‘sexy’ mixed in with a genuine attempt to portray a fully developed character. In other words, I’d never read Kimiko as intending to be a feminist portrayal in the first place; if Diaz is really claiming that, he needs to go read Strong Female Protagonist. THAT series takes the notion seriously.
Heck, given recent, uh, changes and/or revelations, I’m not entirely sure the entity calling itself Kimiko Ross still is, or ever really was, “female” in any but a superficial sense.
But that’s another comic, and we’re getting way off-topic by talking about it here.
…shit, now I kind of want to catch myself up on Dresden Codak. Enby stuff is my jam. But knowing him it’s probably couched in his dogmatically-pseudoreligious brand of transhumanism in just the right way to still be dismissive of real nonbinary people.
Seconding the radness of Strong Female Protagonist.
(not least because Feral and Paladin are being kind of adorable right now)
I’m mostly enjoying the systematic destruction of Allison’s morality and sense of justice.
It’s always fascinating when Right Wingers try and claim this shit is unique to us. Not even infuriating, in this case. Just legitimately interesting. I mean also terrible, but not infuriating.
I remember Diaz’s response to this letter; jackass ground some pretty epic salt.
God I know. He’s basically the kingpin of virtue signalling.
I relish any opportunity to see that Mary Cagle comic get reposted.
Dammit I forgot to repost it.
Diaz draws good schlocky action comics with fine art. Judging from the references scattered through his works he thinks differently. The Magnolia Porter quote nails it:
“What I have a problem with is that your comic is not presented as a science fiction comic with a dash of sexy thrills, but rather as a feminist narrative in support of powerful independent women.”
Clearly he’s thought deeply about comics, art and read a lot of philosophy but he’s come up with something that wouldn’t look out of place on the DC roster of male-writers and insists it’s about female empowerment. Although less hilarious if you’re under the shade of his performance, it is rather funny.
He blocked me on twitter for reasons. Meh, I’ll just keep ignoring him and read his comic – he has a good line and an eye for colour I’ll never have. I suspect I’m his niche audience anyway.
I do, but only because I have been a volunteer for HRC for years and years. And a Unitarian who has completed the Welcoming Congregation class.
Aww, Dotty. :'[
Well played indeed Leslie. Well played indeed
Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiittttt! I said it first!
I’m laughing so hard right now. Seriously, bravo sir.
The entire lecture is just Roz pointing at herself
Well played, indeed.
Now if only I know what any of that meant.
It’s when people pretend they care about marginalized people but actually shout over them and don’t make anything better. Basically, what Roz did when she lectured Joyce and shouted over Leslie about LGBT+ rights.
That was the class that Joyce credits with a level of introspection she hadn’t been forced into, that solidified the fact that she /likes/ Roz?
The very same.
Honestly, I’ve been both Joyce and Leslie in this equation. Allies who think they know best (and who claim the ‘A’ in LGBTA+ stands for Allies) are awful. An analogy I like is that Allies are supposed to be parents watching kids in a soccer game. They can cheer and support all they like, but nothing good’s going to come of them trying to snag the trophy with the kids, or coming onto the field for their child’s team.
Oh god the ‘A is for Allies’ people. Same kind of person makes a list of the top ten trans* webcomics and gives the #1 slot to a webcomic made by a cis person. Like I’m happy for you and all and it might be an amazing comic, but you’ve totally missed the whole reason a list like that is important to begin with.
For those who can’t tell, I’m totally subtweeting someone right now.
I have never seen that in the wild, but I’m glad I didn’t, because that is some horse shit and hearing that would have filled me with an urge to run up to the nearest living thing and kill it.
I get it a lot because I tend to wear my ace pride on my sleeve, so I get the deliberate assholes who claim that as an intentionally acephobic thing.
I’ve also seen the earnestly mistaken folks who genuinely did think that’s what the A stood for and were very embarrassed when I gently corrected them.
Friend of mine makes a convincing argument (IMO) for the importance of (actually good) allies, but I dunno if I’m qualified to reproduce or even summarize it.
From what I recall, the big one is providing cover, in two senses: one, standing between the vulnerable and those who’d throw bricks, words, or both, as Joyce is doing here; and two, giving those who aren’t ready to come out yet (or even consciously realize yet that they are) an excuse to hang around and talk with/listen to “those people”.
It’s not about whether allies are important, it’s about the kinds of voices that need to be uplifted most. If your allyship spends more energy on allies than it does on the marginalized — if it uses itself to lift up the allies — it’s not allyship, it’s opportunism.
Allies are important. I should know, being one myself. But they don’t need a spot in the acronym, for they aren’t a victim of systemic bias simply because of who they are.
Especially given that the A is for Aces.
*Bonks self* and Aros.
the A was originally for “ally” tho, exactly b/c closeted people needed a way to safely join things like GSAs. the addition of ace/aro is very recent.
What Grim said. (Kids these days, no institutional memory. :/ )
Then again, these things do change over time.
There’s a good chance I’m older than you! This shit was added well after I was in school for student groups -.-
I also kinda think it’s hogwash to put it in the group name, though, even given that as cover. Whether it’s in the name or not, you can fake that much.
Throw bricks. Just do it second (Or first, if asked for ass-covering reasons).
Shut up when dealing with an oppressed person (at least, on that axis, and be careful otherwise). At most, quote someone else’s directly germane words, and even that I’m worried about (Given what White People do when playing Necromancer with MLK Jr., among others.) Log Cabin Republican? Chill Girl? idc. Shut up, if you don’t share that oppression. I kinda accept that nominally, LGBTIAQ is supposed to mean something, but in practice it’s the worst political alliance in living memory so I really would be careful if it’s specifically about, like, bi people as a gay, or trans shit if you’re cis-, even if you’re queer in a different way. Either way, basically shut up.
But a good summary to my ears.
If white people are going to quote MLK, they should know this quote of his:
First I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate … who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.
I’m thinking of getting that as a bumper sticker.
Yup! (Good) allies serve critical roles and with things like queer and trans roles, there’s frequently a good number of egg mode folk who find themselves “inexplicably” drawn to allyship to start with (I’ve known so many folks and have been the person who’s spent a year or two angrily passionately defending the rights of a group they turned out to belong to).
If we’re marginalized we frequently can’t win our full humanity alone. Frequently only allies are allowed into certain spaces we are barred from and so good allies will use that extra social power for good while respecting the bullshittery of them being given that extra power in the first place.
Forgive my ignorance on the matter, but what do you mean by “egg mode”? Presently, my Google search is returning mostly Easter based results.
Folks who, given education and resources, would identify this way, and at the time, do not. A gender-questioning person who, if they understood more about presentations of gender, for instance, might identify as trans, enby, or literally anything but cis-.
Nobody is born knowing all of this, and the idea is a non-trivial number of allies are actually folks who will change their identification as a matter of learning.
Ah! So the idea is that these people would “come out of their shell”, as it were, if they only were aware it was an option?
I think it’s just that eggs are where babies come from, and babies are the new and young iteration of what you are. Like how Leslie was gushing over the Young Gay that is Becky. But that’s good too.
It’s also been used to mean folks who haven’t quite hatched yet i.e. haven’t realized their identity quite yet or that a particular identity applies to them.
OK… so I get “egg” now, but what’s enby… and possibly half the words Lailah used in the post above Pablo’s. Usually I don’t care about labels but I figure if I’m trying to get a job as a psych tech for pre-teens/teens I should prooooooooobably start learning labels. Where I grew up not only did we speak Spanish but nobody ever came out of the closet on anything so I know close to zero non-hetero words (in fact, only within the past month did someone teach me what “cis” meant, which I probably should’ve figured out on my own because I’ve taken chem courses).
enby is fairly common way of referring to non-binary. Cause nb -> enby, it’s how it sounds when you say it aloud.
I used it a fair bit before my fiancee proposed and would say that they were my enbyfriend instead of girlfriend or boyfriend as they are non-binary.
Dragon_Nataku, ‘enby’ is just the pronunciation of NB, short for Non-Binary. if you look up nonbinary with google, you should find lots of useful resources.
So nonbinary is… someone who doesn’t identify as one or the other gender? Or maybe both at once? I think that’s a thing? I know I could just Google this stuff but who knows what random incorrect stuff I’d find. I know you guys know your stuff so I trust you guys.
Dragon- Yup. It’s all the genders that are not just either exclusively man or exclusively woman. So it includes people who identify in a space in-between or outside of that binary, people who identify as a third gender, people who identify with no gender (agender), people who are genderfluid and move back and forth between genders on different days, people who identify as multiple genders simultaneously (bigender/pangender/polygender) or in a grey-area where they identify as a gender but not exclusively or all the time.
Basically it’s an umbrella term encompassing any gender besides the binary two (man and woman), hence the name. For most people, they identify as something within that umbrella and then form organizations with the larger umbrella. Kind of like someone may be bi or gay or ace and still be under the larger umbrella of queer and be thus connected to a larger queer community.
Thanks Cerberus, I really appreciate it. I mean, I know you teach for a living and all but I still appreciate you taking time out of your day to explain this stuff. <3
(btw, I don't think we've ever really interacted before, mostly cause I'm a lurker, but I've read some of your posts and I really admire the lengths you go to for your students. I wish the world had more teachers like you)
A trans webcomic means a comic about trans people that trans people think is accurate and inspiring. Of course it could be made by a cis person.
Is Willis’s pro gay comic not pro gay because he’s straight?
That’s not the point. It’s one thing to have a comic by cis person ON that list, but at the TOP? Does it really seem likely that a cis person did a better job of representing trans characters than actual trans artists?
‘cheer and support’ somewhat understates the importance of using privilege productively. Folks who have it need to bloody well use it for those who don’t. ESPECIALLY fucking now (in the states), since it’s only growing more physically dangerous.
Mind you, while *I* am 100% fine with literally anyone telling Joyce off in that class at that moment, if they were real, Roz should still shut the hell up. But I’m not going to get het up about that given that nobody else felt like saying what Joyce needed to hear (Even if it were in Leslie to /do/ that, it’s not her place to be /that/ fucking harsh with a student.)
And yes, none of /that/ also precludes that doing it for ‘points’ is dumb and shouldn’t be the case (I somewhat doubt Roz /was/, but that’s still not the point, I’ve seen plenty of folks sniffing out brownie points)
I’ve never understood that. Who gives out these points? What backs their value? Can they be redeemed for store credit, or can you only spend them on designated items?
they’re virtue points. you exchange them for smugness and feeling like a better person than whoever you’ve been yelling at most recently. often mistaken for anger points, where you spend anger points on something you’re very angry about in order to create more anger points
also the semi-official currency of tumblr.
i feel like it’s the semi-official currency of most comments sections tbh
Yeah, how about we not say the shit about yoofs that has been said of every single generation before us and that will continue being said after us. That’d be /super/.
There’s some very… interesting people who seem to be under the delusion that if they earn a “point” doing something good for a group, then that earns them a specific favor from that group. As if allyship or support was an initial payment for services to be rendered.
Which is actually the origin of the whole “brownie points” or “ally cookies” thing. Because it was in reference to folks doing one supportive thing and then getting entitled and demanding favors from folks or to be able to get away with other bigoted actions because of it or otherwise expecting something in exchange for their support.
Basically, conditional support isn’t.
Though I feel it gets overused these days and there’s danger in assuming all or even most forms of attempted support are disingenuous, especially as basically arguing that is a common tactic of the far right these days in order to make selfishness and hate seem like the only “honest” belief a dominant group member can have.
That all said, it can be really really frustrating to be rounded on by somebody because you lightly corrected them on something like a pronoun only to have them blow up at you and state that they are now removing their support for your humanity.
That’s like the craziest thing I ever heard.
Or some utopian future where people where fighting for petty Privileges like staying up late on school nights.
Is this how you think of LGBT people?
As children fighting for a nonconsequential game and allies are parents ? Did none of that strike you as condescending?
It’s almost exactly the opposite in every way. People are fighting for their lives. We need allies , as they are the majority ,to get on the field and fight side by side ,or we lose.
The other side isn’t filled with harmless kiddies, they are would be Nazis.
And if handing out Trophies and Ribbon s inspires allies to show up, then that’s what you do.
allies are incredibly important sustaining change, sure. but if people aren’t motivated by principle and instead only supporting the cause as long as they get trophies and ribbons, if they only hang around to help as long as they can get something from you, then they aren’t allies. they’re camp followers. sometimes useful but not who you’d trust with your back in a fight.
Straight folks should ally to the queer community because it’s the right thing to do. Not because a bi lady will reward them with a sexy threesome.
If you contend that the fight is incredibly serious, as you should, and are cognizant that there are indeed nazis and other paramilitaries, as are you are, you should probably recognize the need for actual motivation, because that’s what’ll get people who will, in fact, fight.
It’s two things but they often go together. The latter is essentially a non-marginalized person talking over someone who is marginalized (poor, black, gay, whatever.) The former is a person who proclaims being an ally with, but not part of, a marginalized group, but only does it to make themselves look good, often at the expense of the very people they’re supposedly allies with.
It’s more complicated than that but that’s basically the gist of it.
Not to mention someone can be a member of one marginalized group, but merely an ally to another, and in that case it may or may not be performative. Intersectionality. Ain’t it splendid?
To summarize what the others said…
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/curriculum/ sums it up in one comic.
*plays some Pink Floyd on the hacked Muzak*
I know you mean the whole ‘We don’t need no education’ style of thing, but my first thought was that I’ve got a bike, you can ride it if you’d like, it’s got a basket a bell that rings and things to make it look good. I’d give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it
Pink Floyd is the Beatles of good music.
I have no idea what this means!
It means that they’ve done quite a variety of music, not just the one or two songs they’re MOST well known for.
As for the “good music” part, I think they’re saying they find it difficult to like something without turning subjective judgements of other things into objective statements.
I’m saying the Beatles is the greatest band of all time but most of their songs aren’t actually good, and Pink Floyd is the greatest band of all time out of all of the bands that produce good music consistently.
People are calling Leslie awesome for this but all I’m seeing is her leaving Roz in this position with nothing but a “reason you suck” lecture as a lifeline. I mean on the one hand I do think Roz will gain something from this but how Leslie is going about this is really rubbing me the wrong way.
It is kind of a sick burn, but it’s almost definitely inappropriate.
@delicious taffy: there’s no almost about it.
You’re right. I have trouble committing, sometimes. It’s definitely inappropriate, sickness notwithstanding.
I’m assuming it’s just an awesome coincidence
It really better be?
I mean, she walked in with a lesson plan. It seems both weird and like a waste of time for her to take that and write something passive aggressive at Roz, especially when Roz hasn’t actively done much in any direction lately.
But idk it might work out okay. I thought Dorothy drinking with Billie was gonna be a thing and it wasn’t. Roz could learn a valuable lesson from all this but I still want to see Leslie get called out a bit when this is said and done.
And I don’t, because I happen to agree with Leslie on this that IMO Roz doesn’t really care about marginalized groups as much a she cares about getting what she wants. And her getting caled on it is delicious.
No, I’m Delicious.
I’m allegedly known by my grade as ‘The Robot.’ They even have the catchphrase; “Chris is a Robot!” So I taste a bit bland and metallic. Plus I break teeth
Well I believe Roz does genuinely care but sometimes she goes about things the wrong way. So I guess how good you’re gonna feel about what’s happening does depend genuinely on how “performative” you find Roz’s allyship. She’s definitely guilty of shouting over marginalized voices at times and she does need to work on that and learn when to step back but I do think she genuinely does give a shit about this shit.
And whether or not you believe Roz that doesn’t change the fact that Leslie left her fucking job and a student in a vulnerable position for a personal matter that could have been put on hold until later in the day and she does deserve to be called out on that.
I still don’t understand how this is a “vulnerable” position? How is it any different than calling on a student to answer a question they might not know the answer to, or making a student come up to the board to solve a math problem they might not understand how to solve? (I’m not defending Leslie here; it’s incredibly unprofessional and her doing this to anyone in a class I attended would net her a terrible teacher eval from me. I am seriously wanting to know how this puts Roz in a “vulnerable” position though?)
You don’t think leaving someone who has never taught before in a classroom full of their peers with no teacher present to shut things down if things get out of line is a vulnerable position? They’re not grad students. A year ago these kids were in high school. Would this have been an okay thing to do a year ago? I’m not saying this will happen but imagine that Roz has a mental illness (not saying she does but I am saying we don’t fucking know and neither does Leslie the kind of history of trauma a student could have that could make doing something like this a bad fucking idea) that could be potentially exacerbated by something like…for ex…public humiliation? Like say for example her being forced to essentially publicly perform when she is someone with an abrasive personality someone else might try to win cool points by taking down a peg? ANYTHING could happen. I’m not saying it will but it COULD and just the possibility of that means that Leslie should probably be there making sure things stay under control. However much Leslie may not be Roz’s biggest fan it is just as much her responsibility to protect her from being attacked as it was for her to protect Joyce back during the infamous “Shut up or sit down” scene and not only is she not there to do that she created the scenario for potential harm.
Roz has been in this class from the start of the semester and has already shown that she has no hang-ups or insecurities or anxiety triggers related to public speaking, either in general or to hostile audience. If Leslie had just picked off a random student, sure, it would have been horrible, but Roz can handle herself and Leslie knows it.
And… really, what do you think people will do to her? Physically attack or what? Sure, she might be laughed out of the room, but like… this is Roz, not Amber. She’ll live to tell the story.
I mean, yeah, this is a very unproductive way to teach, and Leslie has absolutely blown off the lesson with barely a token gesture, and any vandalism or debauchery the kids might get up to will be totally on her, but I don’t think she’s hurting _Roz_ all that much here…
Roz has not shown any anxieties or triggers as far as we know. It is completely possible for people to suffer from anxiety and have past trauma and be very good at hiding it. I am not saying that Roz does have anxiety or trauma just that we can’t possible know that with absolute certainty and neither can Leslie. The semester is barely a month old yet (right?). I am also not saying that the class will rise up against her in some kind of angry mob fashion or even just be that dickish to her probably. Dorothy being there makes me feel a bit better about this because if no one else is going to be the responsible adult in this situation Dorothy will try (she shouldn’t HAVE to but she will) to come to Roz’s aid should things get too out of control. And so what if she has thick skin? So what if she’ll “get over it”? That doesn’t make mistreating her and potentially publicly humiliating her if she’s laughed out of the classroom somehow okay. Jesus. She’s a person and cruelty is still cruelty even if the person being hurt isn’t irrevocably damaged over it. (I can’t believe I have to point that out.) I’m done going back and forth about this the bottom line for me is that if this would not be an okay thing to do to Joyce or any other random student then it is not an okay thing to do to Roz. Roz isn’t in some separate category from every other student because she’s loud and rubs people the wrong way.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter how much this will actually end up hurting Roz when all is said and done. This situation simply should have never been allowed to play out the way that it has and sets a bad precedent. However people may feel about Roz she still deserves every bit of the same consideration and care afforded to every other student in this class and in this situation she simply wasn’t.
Also consider the fact that there are students in the class who potentially need much more help than Roz and need to be able to see Leslie as someone who they can trust to do what is in their best interest and they just witnessed this entire scene play out. They don’t know all the backstory we do. All they know is that their professor just walked out on class and left Roz there to handle her mess. They know have to consider the possibility this could happen to them and that’s not fair.
My head canon: Leslie is dealing from the bottom of the deck.
She had this special lesson plan prepared long ago, just waiting for the opportunity to use it.
(no, I am not a nice person — why do you ask?)
Also, I think this might mean that she’d prepared the notes for it in such a way that someone who isn’t her can use them with no preparation. Which would make this a much less irresponsible thing to do, even if it’s still… uh… irresponsible.
I expect she and Joyce are going to have a talk, no matter how well or badly the encounter with Robin goes.
Honestly the time for propriety has long since passed. Desperate times and all that.
Nobody’s actually forcing Roz to do the lecture. Class was over as soon as Leslie decided to leave. If Roz embarrasses herself it’s only because her own ego wouldn’t let her back down.
Granted, what Leslie’s doing isn’t the right way to go about it but this is a comedic webcomic and we need punchlines.
Leslie left her in this position, dared her to take charge, and left her with a lesson plan that is more or less her saying, “Fuck you.”
A nice lesson in humility and a stab to her ego. Roz did keep saying that she could teach this class herself.
I don’t think it’s that easy for Roz to just back down and walk away.
That’s kind of Roz’s whole problem, isn’t it? She cares way too much about reputation and ego.
Yeah, she’s 18.
Time to learn some valuable life lessons.
Yeah, don’t trust authority figures no matter how nice they pretend to be.
That is one of the most important lessons to learn in life.
That’s. Understating what a jackass Leslie is being if it were intentional. Sure, Roz can just leave. She possesses radical freedom, just like the other students. Walky can walk out now. He doesn’t need permission. Joe can be a colossal asshole and hit on everyone with his unit. Leslie could have actually cancelled class. etc.
But Roz was left with an actual expectation that she would do this. And somebody has to if there’s going to be a class. It’s not /just/ a matter of asinine pride.
I mean, I don’t believe for two seconds this is intentional. But it’s still a thing that’d be incredibly dickish on Leslie’s part if it were, and no amount of radical freedom on Roz’s part is going to change that.
Did you just compare leaving a classroom with no teacher to someone with a well-recorded history of being blurry on consent making unwanted sexual advances?
David Willis has made a comic for people like you.
No. Are you on drugs?
Technically caffeine is a drug.
4/20 is still ongoing in large swaths of the USA, so I had to be sure.
Hard to believe that before cannabis was discovered we had to go straight from April 19th to April 20th.
fuck I did it wrong and there’s no edit or delete feature, everything is terrible forever
I could make the joke I was going to make now, but the opportunity is ruined and I already made it to my roommate, I’ll just wait for next year.
You’re ascribing a lot of malice to a funny coincidence.
You’re not alone on that. I don’t think it’s intentionally malicious, but it’s still a really shitty thing for Leslie to have done and I’m fully expecting her to make an earnest apology later about it especially to Roz.
Not you, too. Iknow you idealize Roz because you need non-binary representation, but this is too far.
Roz is the bad guy in this situation. The onlybreason this note stung is that it is exactly what Roz has been doing. Leslie has as much reason to apologize to Roz as the people who out homophobic gay people.
This desire to defend Roz when she’s evil seems to me no different than the people trying to defend Mary, John, etc. She’s being shitty, and she needs to be called out. Leslie has every reason as a teacher to teach the lesson her class needs, and to leave it to Roz to read when she cancels class.
Apologizing to assholes for calling them out only leads to them thinking their behavior was justified and negates the message.
I do not get this need to defend assholes. If Roz is to become a good person, she NEEDS these slap downs.
You REALLY need to stop seeing everything in absolutes, and making condescending assumptions about why people hold opinions you disagree with.
You literally just explained to a teacher how teaching works, while questioning the motives of an LGBT person for her defense of someone had previously talked over a lesbian and made some mistakes as an ally. Maybe you should consider the possibility that her reasons for defending Roz might be valid?
Roz is not “the bad guy”, nor is she Mary. Her heart is in the right place, it’s just that her head isn’t always. And she’s Leslie’s STUDENT. “Slap downs” are not an appropriate or professional teaching method. The lesson Leslie prepared was what Roz needed, but dropping a class on a freshman with no time to prepare was not.
People with different standards of good vs evil than trlkly? Morality is subjective? That’s unpossible!
Leslie has always been a low-key fave of mine in her previous iteration, and it’s strips like this one that just reinforce why that is.
Well fucking played, indeed.
“Great masterminding skills!”
“I don’t know who that man is, but he speaks for us!”
“What intelligence Leslie must have!”
“Since there aren’t any lesson plans, you should dismiss us!”
“I don’t know who this man or this commenter is, but he speaks for us!”
It was great once I googled enough to understand it.
*dusts off the YOU JUST GOT SERVED thingy*
ROZ JUST GOT SEEEERRRVEEED.
The thingy should be a racket.
Ah ha! is that… the tennis?
Indeed. Or the badminton. All the rackets.
Dorothy looks genuinely distressed. I really feel for her, here. Also, that burn had to have been set up on purpose, right?
Unrelated, but I haven’t updated in a while, so it might be nice to. Things in general are going alright here. We’re looking at a new house for Mom to buy, so we don’t have to worry about bouncing between them anymore, and whenever she decides to move out-of-state, I’ll have a permanent address, so I’ll be able to stay. Her current boyfriend is not going to be coming with, and I don’t even think he’s aware we plan on leaving. This is fine by me, the condescending drunk can wallow in his well-earned solitude, for all I care. In more immediate news, my girlfriend is coming over tonight. She’s been at a party and had a few drinks, so the mood will most likely be nice and light. We’ve been spending more time together, lately, which has helped immensely. That’s the short of it.
Probably not, unless Leslie is an enormous asshole in a way I didn’t expect. But it was an important topic for Leslie to cover on its own merits.
Nice! See, everything has worked out Taffy! You just need to believe that everything happens for a reason. Good luck 👍
I’m glad folks like you have had more optimism than I have, or I’d have flipped out by now.
Thanks! One if my friends has a short temper and/or channels frustration into anger, so I get where you are coming from. Many people express anger in different ways. I express it through being icy and uncaring. He expresses it through rage and cussing
Rage is a very familiar outlet, and one I’ve historically fallen back on more than any other.
As long as you can channel it, you’ll be fine from here on
From Calvin and Hobbes: “The Dynamics of Interbeing and Monological Imperatives in Dick and Jane: A Study in Psychic Transrelational Gender Modes.”
On a serious note, the title for today’s lesson is dripping in Academic Speak (well, duh)– if not broken down into something more palatable that sort of thing goes right over people’s heads. It’s not… accessible. And kinda intimidating.
I’m wondering what Roz would do to make it more easily understood. I mean, besides pointing out the obvious.
I didn’t think the title was too academic, but that’s because I’m not just a social justice warrior, I’m a social justice hipster nerd. I’m pretty sure I get it from my mom.
Of course, nowadays it’s the other way around. I’m just glad that I’m on good terms with her and have managed to turn her into a force for progress, because she’s really good at it. It’s hard to believe that just four years ago she took the book of Leviticus seriously, yet now the only reason she would consider a church with a homophobic minister is that she hopes she can convert him (or at least his congregation).
They grow up so fast… 😏
this is inspiring
how did you even get there
I have absolutely no idea. I’ve just been thanking/blaming El Goonish Shive for the past couple years.
fuckin’ <a> tag, here
yeah no i don’t think i could ever get my mom to read that
she stopped watching arrested development because she figured out that portia derossi was gay
Oh I didn’t get her to read it. EGS is how I came around.
To this day I have no idea what did it for her, but I think it might have been existential shock at just how horrible Trump was.
At the very least, for someone whose job it is to know the discourse (such as anyone who would normally be reading the lesson plan) it’s informative enough for what it needs to be; I do agree that I wouldn’t put it on a flier. I mean, I would put it on a flier, but someone smarter than I would shoot that idea down and I’d probably listen to them.
it’s not immediately accessible, but the thing about jargon is that it’s perfectly clear to people who work within the field that a thing is what it is and isn’t what it isn’t. so like it makes perfect sense to both leslie and roz, but it would probably be presented as something more accessible to leslie’s students.
at the very least it’s easily google-able
Meanwhile, jargon in any field makes my brain BSOD ^T__T^
I trust you’re aware that both “BSOD” and that emoticon are non-transparent to the uninformed reader. 🙂
That emoticon, however, is 100% transparent, or at least translucent. Unlike this one 🙃
I think titles of lectures are often deliberately jargon-filled, with the purpose of then explaining the jargon? Like, the students aren’t expected to immediatley understand the title, explaining it is what the lecture is for.
And Roz actually gets points for not only parsing the title immediately, but also making the connection to herself :>
Poor Dorothy is going to stretch herself thin and it’s going to hurt.
And Roz, well, self-reflection is in order as you lecture.
Well, they always did say that the best way to make sure you’ve learned something is to do so well enough to be able to teach it.
It’s a good thing that this is a fictional universe, though.
Also! Will this finally be the class where people realize they can just, you know, walk straight out the door and nobody will stop them? :v
Possibly. Roz might even be first out the door.
I give her more credit than that.I think she’s going to give the entire lecture, learn a lesson about herself, and still point out what a dick move this entire thing was to Leslie. Because even if some good comes out of this and Roz’s heart grows three sizes or whatever how Leslie went about this was still a dick move.
A dick move well earned.
Maybe if Leslie and Roz were classmates or Roz was a fellow professor but nope, Leslie’s still an authority figure. There was a better way to go about this.
Difficult, since Leslie and Becky have already beaten her to it :p
Last time shots were fired in this comic, it ended in a car chase. Let’s hope the same happens here.
I still don’t like Roz personally, but I absolutely give her props for recognizing that this is something she’s been guilty of.
She has to be pretty well aware of what people think of her at this point.
Well, yeah. But it’s still proof that she tries (although often failing). Honestly, I think her main problem is that while she fights for non-judgement and acceptance, she’s still struggling to put that into practice. The only thing that’s different is the target of her scorn. And some of them certainly deserve it, but not most that we’ve seen so far. Joyce earns it for past transgressions, and when she learns from and renounces them, Roz tries to exclude her from “the real allies”. Leslie earns it for “sympathizing with the enemy”, and wanting to reach out to them (albeit in an unhealthy way, for unhealthy reasons with Robin). Honestly, if she could recognize that her judgmental attitude is a problem, and at least make the effort towards countering it like she does with her other flaws, I would immediately change my opinion of her. ‘Cause it’s one thing to preach tolerance. It’s a whole different beast to practice it.
i guess i feel like non-judgement and acceptance are all very well and good, but it’s fighting that makes the changes stick. and fighting isn’t always, y’know, heroic and peaceful. like, Rosa Parks wasn’t even the first black person to refuse to get up from her seat on a bus; she was just the most publicized, since she was a trained activist and she was easy to sympathize with. people don’t always embrace change until it’s unavoidable. i think Roz draws more from that tradition of activism. she’s a person drawn to getting things done.
the irony is that sometimes it actually is easier to get things done when you’re accepting and patient with people. but not always. sometimes people do need that quick kick-in-the-tush. when there’s a problem that needs to be fixed it needs to be fixed now, before more damage is done if at all possible. even if you can’t fix the whole problem you can at least fix part of the problem.
but like navigating that gap between what you can do and what you can’t do is…complicated. idk, i feel like i’ve grown disillusioned with a lot of the concept of tolerance, because sometimes it just seems like putting up with something you don’t approve of for the greater benefit. which…is all well and good as it goes…but sometimes you need better than that. like if you just tolerate gay people, that’s not good enough. it’s better than outright not-tolerating gay people, but it’s also not engaging with gay people as people, if that makes sense. it’s like having a pet peeve and not doing anything about it because you don’t want to hurt someone. actual acceptance of gayness involves not secretly disdaining it.
idk it kind of seems like acceptance of others involves acceptance of yourself, and your relation to others, which means owning how they make you feel so that you can be genuine in your acceptance and in your strategies around them. like: accepting that someone is a transphobic jerk is one thing. it’s your decision of what to do after that point that is either tolerant or intolerant. and intolerance, in some cases, is a perfectly fine response.
…this kind of turned into a ramble but ANYWHO i don’t think that Roz ever…really…preached tolerance. doesn’t sound like her. but yes her judgmental attitude is something that could be toned down, with practice, but i don’t think it’s altogether a bad thing to have? like. her judgmentalness comes from seeing stuff that she disagrees with. being able to disagree with stuff is not a bad thing in and of itself. it’s the actions she takes with that. i.e. maybe don’t talk over your marginalized teacher when she’s trying to have a teachable moment, i guess
idk she does do a lot of black and white thinking which…is not helpful
Honestly, for any movement you need both.
You need the rabble-rousers in the streets taking the risks and making people understand that this shit is real and is hurting real people and that the status quo is responsible for it. The Marsha P Johnsons and Sylvia Riveras throwing bricks at the cops. The antifa pushing back against the nazis. The strikers fighting to protect the workers.
And you need the folks who can be kindly kindly and talk gently and sympathetically to the folks on the fence, bringing tales of our lives and trying to reach them with kindness.
And the reason for that is it really depends on what gets through to people. Some will not quite get what’s so upsetting about their actions until they have their noses rubbed in it a bit and they’ve been exploded at by someone they’ve hurt. Some need someone who will step them through with patience. And it’s hard to guess sometimes at first.
I’ve thrown good time after bad trying to reach folks operating in bad faith who saw my patience and kindness as a weakness to try and exploit absorbing a lot of abuse in the process. I’ve blown up at folks and had to apologize later for it.
I think Roz is more the rabble-rouser and in times like these that’s super necessary as we’re moving more and more into a time where things are really really bad and just trying to talk things out is not going to work.
sometimes you need to punch a nazi and sometimes you need to be aunt frannie with rainbow cookies but at all times you need to push
honestly like. a lot of people are just not going to get it until you make them get it because it’s inconvenient to try and get it. or, like, because fully getting it means changing a ton of mental habits. or this, that and the other thing. but mostly people aren’t going to get it until they choose to get it, but they don’t get to choose to get it until they get the opportunity.
…idk i’ve tried the education route but so much of that is just. having the information at your disposal. and picking logic holes in what someone is saying is a lot easier than coming up with facts that can be disputed with opinions. :/
You have a point about not standing up for what you believe in. Not fighting in the face of injustice. But there’s a difference between “Your actions are hurting other people and you need to stop, or I will make you.” judgements, and “Your actions make you irredeemable, and your livelihood and wellbeing should be sabotaged for them.” It’s the difference between fighting for justice, and fighting for revenge. And sometimes they do intersect, but if we want justice in the world, at least one of our priorities should be to fight without malicious intent. Not that we can always do that, but it’s something we should strive for. Roz is frequently malicious in her machinations, even if her cause is just, and she needs to learn that’s not a good thing, and should at least, be mitigated and/or re-channeled. Roz is angry, and she fights, but she doesn’t turn her rage into something positive. She’s flailing and kicking and screaming, and often this hits the very people she’s fighting for. Tolerance is not being a pansy-pushover, unwilling to stand. It’s understanding that the human experience is so wildly variable that no two people will ever agree on everything, and defending the right to variability and peaceful coexistence.
I guess the impression I’ve gotten of Roz is that this is how she knows how to play the game – Robin’s politicking is what she knows of politics and that style is most social interactions. That kind of judgementalness is what I’d call black-and-white thinking: either you’re with us or against us, either you’re right or you’re wrong, no in-between. It’s not…necessarily…that she intends malice, she just sees that kind of mud-racking and name-calling as part of the game. Like with Dorothy just before this class – she played for political talking points without realizing that she could accomplish her aims by making a genuine connection.
idk i feel like the only time when Roz has tried to actively destroy somebody’s reputation it’s been Robin. who is – her sister, and someone who votes for destructive policies, and someone who in-comic puts what benefits her personally over the common good. but Roz did that by torpedo-ing her own reputation. i think i’m going to need you to be more specific on how she’s been malicious b/c it’s been ages since i’ve reread this comic and i don’t have the kind of time necessary to reread it, haha. but i do agree that she doesn’t turn her rage into something positive, and that she does often hurt the people around her with her actions. I just don’t think she’s intentionally doing that most of the time.
That is a definition of tolerance I could definitely work with!!
I will concede that the majority of her behavior is due to familiarity with it. It’s the world she came from; what she knows, and how she was taught the world works. But she’s only just starting to realize that her “us/them”, and “holier-than-thou” attitudes are not only detrimental to her causes, but make her kind of an ass. Like, no Roz, being “crusty around the edges” doesn’t make you approach-ably relatable; it just makes you crusty. And maliciousness isn’t always deliberate. As often as not, it takes more conscious effort to not let one’s personal pain bleed into their sense of justice, and dip into vengeance territory. (Amber/AG is a more overt example of this.) And, you know, I’m absolutely ready to forgive her behavior if/when she finishes the realization part of her ark and moves to attempting to improve herself. Her straightforward determination, cunning, and tendency for blunt language are already powerful tools. I can easily see her becoming a stalwart fighter in the battle for equality, but right now, she’s just a belligerent one, and that helps no one.
mmm. I guess I always thought of malice as something premeditated! Like, intent was the defining movement of that emotion. A lot of people can do things that have bad consequences for others, but not realize what those bad consequences are. Not caring about those consequences is something different, more..apathetic. I wouldn’t call Joyce malicious for her homophobic actions earlier in the comic, because those actions were coming out of ignorance. Doesn’t make them any less harmful, it’s just…a different place.
…idk I guess I feel like just being willing to be a fighter in the battle for equality is enough? being genuinely willing to do those things is where everybody has to start, even if they refine their tactics over time to be more effective. you don’t have to be perfect at it in order to make a difference.
That’s a great way of putting it… I need to save that quote… 🙂
source it “zoelogical, a nerd on the internet, xoxo”
…well played, Leslie. It’s a pity we’re not getting to see how class would have gone, properly taught, though. Maybe once Leslie stops being a pod person and gets her life back together, we can see this one play out for real?
Because seriously, that is one thing young, relatively inexperienced people who are just getting into social justice tend to fall into. Myself included, at Roz’s age. In an axis where you are a privileged ally, your place is to 1.) amplify the voices of the oppressed rather than your own, and 2.) take the battle where it’s dangerous or ineffective for the actual oppressed parties to go.
Use your privilege as a shield for those who don’t have it.
Could you give an example of proper ally-ship? As someone currently questioning a few things myself, I’m not sure where I fit in that regard or how I might go about being an ally to the folks I know.
Protip: Buying and talking about works made by marginalized people is uplifting and financially supporting said marginalized people, so you can game the system by reading indie comics and binge-watching Steven Universe.
I mean, going to protests, calling your representatives, and helping with relevant crowdfunding efforts are more effective, but you could also spend that time ordering a print copy of The Not So Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal.
I should do that, actually. I never finished that.
Or I could write my Spanish essay and/or study for my engineering test *checks clock* today.
Where’s a good place to watch Steven Universe? I know of a few sites that have it, but I’ve recently become aware of their shady nature.
Youtube. Daily Motion.
Pretty sure watching Steven Universe on either of those is shady.
If you’re looking for it online, I generally assume places like Youtube or Daily Motion don’t fall under a personal definition of shady.
There’s shady as in “I’m going to get viruses” and there’s shady as in “the creators of this content will in no way benefit from my experiencing their work this way”, and while there is overlap they’re not quite the same.
Also, if you pirate Steven Universe it doesn’t count as activism.
Both of those are true. I tend to assume by shady, people mean the former.
I believe CN on demand also has SU. Dunno about netflix or any of those. Youtube sometimes lets you buy the right to see whole episodes and I believe proceeds of that goes to creators.
Well, there’s the official Cartoon Network site if you have cable.
Other than that, if you’re not paying money, it’s probably shady.
I wish crunchyroll had it 🙁 they’re the only ones who’ll take my Canadian money afaik.
Sadly, Steven Universe is not technically an anime, although it might as well be.
I’m probably not the best person to answer this question, so hopefully later Cerb or someone else will be along to give you a better one. However, allyship summed up the best way I know how:
1.) Allyship means realizing you are not the focus here.
2.) You are here to support the people who are oppressed on this axis, depending on your strengths. If you’re a public speaker, speechify it up. If you’re an excellent debater, go out and debate the bigots. If you’re a scary biker type or a boxer or other muscley type, physically protect people from harm (say, at rallies and stuff). Like, you don’t have to put your life on the line or anything, but recognize that you are in a place of relative power and use it accordingly.
3.) Go and talk to the other people who are privileged in the same way you are. Make them be like you. (Say, my gamer boyfriend calling out misogyny in male nerd spaces, for example.)
That last sentence stands out. I’m definitely a gamer in several definitions of the term, and I’m frequently on dedicated gaming forums. There’s all kinds of privilege-related shenanigans going on in places like those, so that seems like a natural starting point.
I would add one thing I would add between 2 & 3 (though this is advice I read at some point, not my own)
2½) Listen to people less privileged than yourself. Follow them on social media. Seek out their stories, and their perspectives directly. Learn how things are different for them, the things they have to put up with, the insensitive questions they get asked, etc
Yup, this. But also, here’s the thing about allyship.
Allies are so so necessary and we do appreciate you, we do.
But, there’s a lot of cultural narrative that makes it easy for allies to believe that they should matter more than the people they are helping and so one key part of allyship is humility. Basically, making sure to actively listen to marginalized people, ask them what you can do to help a specific cause, seek out works by marginalized authors on subjects that interest you or things you have questions about, and be open to making mistakes.
Like, that last one is key. If you are an ally, you probably will at some point trip on your privilege and accidentally step on someone’s toes and how you respond to that is key especially to how much a community will trust you and your allyship.
Like, I’m not going to dictate your emotional response to any situation, but a mistake a lot of would-be allies make is they get called out on a behavior and then they get upset about that and double-down or go off on the person calling them out and using their ally cred as a weapon to shut them down. So good allyship, in my opinion, listens earnestly to critiques from marginalized members about one’s behavior and seeks to fix that.
Because an ally who openly owns when they mess up and actually does work to make sure they don’t mess up in that way again becomes the type of ally people get really really happy about and trust more and more (see Willis for a great example).
And finally, as Shiro says, allies have so so much power for good. But that needs to be tempered in the right directions. Like, if you as an ally sees an intracommunity disagreement between members of a community, resist the urge to add your 2 cents and instead go into the spaces we can’t, talk to the people who will not listen to us, signal boost our stories and experiences to those that need to hear us.
There are a lot of people who will refuse to listen to a marginalized person that will genuinely consider the words of an ally. So use that power we don’t have, in spaces you feel safe to do so (because well, being an ally is sometimes dangerous. People who hate X group also tend to hate “traitors” from their group supporting X group).
But yeah, if I was to center one thing, it’d be the humility and willingness to own fuckups thing. It really is the difference between “I trust you” and “I don’t” for a lot of marginalized folks. Because we’ve had some really bad experiences with folks who come in with a chip on their shoulder and a refusal to listen to even the mildest criticism.
Oh, also, P.S. give marginalized people space to be frustrated and scared. Like, someone who just suffered cis violence ranting about cis people is not actually attacking you personally, they are just expressing frustration. Leave them their space to do so and don’t take it personally cause it very very likely isn’t about you, but rather the types of shitheads you also hate.
All of this is why I’ve been so forgiving of Roz, because I see a lot of people claim she’s not up for owning her mistakes and I argue she is.
And there are mistakes. I kind of woke up last night (I wish this was a metaphor but no, I literally fell asleep and then woke up with this thought in my head) with the realization that, no, I haven’t been nearly critical enough of the way Roz is willing to brag about her sister ‘getting outed’ when at best that should be a necessary evil. I understand why she’s happy, especially since vindication is a very personal factor here and everything Robin’s put her through. But I also understand why people are jumping on her for bragging (and I still don’t buy she did it for the RA thing, because her floormates did criticize instead of celebrating her here–if mostly for wrong reasons), because “this I will gladly take” is really overextending what’s appropriate and so is the sentiment of ‘I’ve just swung an election in their favor.’
I mean there’s mistakes and then there’s proudly boasting at your sister’s forced outing because you hope all the little queer sheep will get in line behind you.
Oh wait that is what you are saying.
I am become error.
Minder, I feel like the two of us have been like, growing together, we’ve been on such a journey together. I do that too, wake myself up by overthinking.
I would suppose that it would be to consider the priorities and goals held by those you are trying to help, rather than using their situation to further one’s own agenda. For example, earlier in the strip when Roz was criticizing Joyce for in the past being ignorant about and supporting the conservative Christian anti-lgbtq agenda, while literally talking over and ignoring Leslie and her opinion, someone who actually was in every way one of the victims Roz was supposedly standing up for.
That’s how not to do it.
So, focus-wise, is it better to do ally things in a passive, case-by-case manner, or to make it an active goal by seeking out situations? The former seems more helpful overall, as the former would likely play into certain…negative traits.
You don’t really need to seek it very hard. It’s everywhere.
Seeking it out could mean that you listen a little harder when people are talking, so that you can call them on saying something uncool and educate them to know better.
Seeking it out could mean going into a profession that directly works to support marginalized people.
Seeking it out could mean, when you’re choosing a subway car, pick the one with the lone at-risk person, so that in case she gets hassled, you can already be there for her.
There are lots of ways to be a good ally!
One is how Joyce did yesterday — she saw that her Becky was going into a situation that was especially dangerous because Becky is a lesbian and Robin’s terrible, so she came along to protect Becky, emotionally and even physically if necessary. She’s basically throwing herself on the figurative grenade, which she can do because, as a straight person, she is far less vulnerable in this situation, it won’t hurt her as much, she’ll totally take the hit for Becky.
Another way is to help direct others to listen to marginalized people’s perspectives. The classic example is you’re like, “Yes, just as Leslie said, ((Leslie’s good point)). Can you expand on that, Leslie?”
Yesssssss, Joyce was being a very good ally there. She’s come so far.
Also, listening to the actually marginalized people’s instructions on what allies can do to help support them. They’ve been living this a long time, they know what they need, they’re the experts, here! Ask what assistance they would like, and do that stuff.
Solid advice. My only question is, what should I do if the marginalised person in question has some questionable views and personal conduct, themselves, and is actively aiming to make things difficult for others? I’ve encountered this quite recently, and wound up stumped.
What’s the situation?
One example would be the comments on yesterday’s strip. I lost my temper with a certain other user, but this was before I became aware of certain aspects of their identity. The behavior and incivility itself was what I reacted to, but now I feel odd about it.
Well, as long as you pause before you hit send and don’t phrase your criticism in a way that attacks their identity, you should be good. Having a marginalized identity isn’t a get-out-of-jail-free card for slip-ups. Do try to be calm, though, as often people with marginalized identities take MORE flak, or at least proportionally more, than non-marginalized folk.
Honestly (dw, water under the bridge, i tuned out after the third or so swear) in a situation like that it might be best to distance yourself. As someone in an allyship position, you can and should distance yourself from the situation if you feel your temper starting to swell. Which like, is a therapy technique some people spend a lot of time learning, I’m in therapy for it, it’s fine, allyship is hard, but if you’re serious about it you wanna make sure you don’t cross the line from being an ally to being an antagonist, which is very easy to do.
There are situations where different people in a marginalised group you’re trying to advocate for will be in serious disagreement with each other, and in that case you have to have a REALLY good grasp on the issues before you go analysing all available views and coming to your own conclusions, or else limit yourself to advocacy for the people within that group who you are closest to. I personally err towards the latter because the first one’s really easy to mess up.
The biggest thing I think is to have the humility to admit to yourself that not every situation is one you have the ability to contribute to in a positive way, and that’s okay.
Don’t contradict them to their face about their oppression, but feel free to disregard obvious bullshit (ex. a lady claiming women don’t get oppressed because sexism is over)
I’m guessing that works both ways. Don’t tell an oppressed person they’re not oppressed, and don’t insist someone is more oppressed than they are.
Pretty much. Like, if they insist OTHER people aren’t oppressed about something (ex. a black person who has never been followed around in a store insists this is not a thing that happens to other black people) you can say ‘I know of people that has happened to, but I’m glad it’s never happened to you.’ Basically – don’t insist they’ve experienced things they haven’t and don’t insist they haven’t experienced things they have, but that doesn’t mean you have to let them speak for everyone.
you call them out on their shit.
some folks will tell you you shouldn’t do that, that it’s an “intracommunity issue” and I think in some select instances it is, but like, if a gay person’s spouting homophobic bullshit, them being gay doesn’t change anything. they’re still being homophobic.
(I definitely often fall into identity politics but here I can 100% say it’s bullshit)
Oh! And call your representatives! Lots!
Get other people to call too if you can. ^^
Most marginalized groups need our sheer numbers. They have totally written lists of things to say, so that we can all call at once and get their priorities heard. (If anyone has a link to such a list handy, I’d be grateful.)
5calls and itstimetofight (on weebly) have good reading lists for anyone interested in doing that.
You smell something burning?
As someone who is not a fan of social justice period.
That lesson plan just screams how awful social justice is.
Why are you even here
Too many words?
If you’re not a fan of social justice, then boy howdy did you pick the wrong webcomic. You do realize the central theme of the comic is Joyce Brown slowly becoming aware of her own prejudices and awakening the social justice warrior within herself as she completes her metamorphosis into internet pornlord, right?
ngl I’m just here to point and laugh at this comment
as someone who is not a fan of Anti social justice people, this post screams of how awful anti social justice is.
Whoa, same avatar and everything.
And now I’m depressed because it’s probably not an act, just a perfect avatar fit.
*bows* I live to serve.
I almost thought it was the same person! Clone?
I’m not only the good clone of this specific poster, but also the good clone of the character in my avatar.
All too true
Do you prefer social injustice? Are you sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or plutocratic? Or did I miss one?
Anti-Semitic, full of ageism, able-ist, biphobic, xenophobic, generally dickish…
They could also be ablist.
You joke but to many of the people who complain about social justice do actively prefer injustice.
I think only Batman villains are supposed to be opposed to justice.
Hell even some Batman villains work from a twisted sense of justice. So….congrats to the OP for being more one dimensional then a comic book villain I guess.
Even though he can be considered a villain, Punisher works for the justice of killing other murderers, including thee one that killed his wife. Pretty much Punisher is like DC writing a Marvel storyline. But he also has humanity and a sense of justice in him. Some people just do the wrong things for the right reasons. Anger… Hate… Revenge…
honey, you got a big storm coming
Wait. Wait, guys, don’t feed the troll. We all already know the rest of us are cool people, we needn’t brag about it.
There is no evidence that “don’t feed the troll” is sound advice.
That’s only because everyone always feeds the troll. Insufficient data!
It is for a particular kind of troll. People just make the mistake of expecting every bully or troll to operate the same way
Feed the trolls until they burst.
But, someone is WRONG! ON THE INTERNET!!
I’m curious as to what you thought was going to happen here.
…avatar checks out?
I’m a skeptic of the notion of social justice, as opposed to plain old actual justice for actual people… but what you might be missing here is that this punchline isn’t about social justice.
It’s about Roz falling face first on her own petard.
The lesson plan describes EXACTLY what Roz keeps doing — putting on an act of being a supporter and advocate for people who’ve been treated unjustly, for her own gain, and repeatedly talking over them and shouting them down in the process. Roz pretends to be an “ally” to people who’ve had a hard time being heard, because it gets her what she wants and because it makes her feel good about herself — but all she ends up doing is making it harder for the actual people to be actually heard and get actual justice.
There’s just a bit of academic/postmodernist obscurantism in the phrasing, but that’s what it describes.
“plain old actual justice for actual people”
I need to point out that “social justice”, which is basically “society treating everyone fairly”, and is something which benefits those who currently are NOT treated fairly now. Such as women, the LGBT+ community, religious and ethnic minorities.
Last time I checked, they were real people too.
Yes. They are people — human beings. With all the same inherent human rights and civil rights as American citizens as everyone else.
When they’re denied those rights, there should be consequences directed at the individuals who deny them those rights.
When crimes are committed against them as individuals, they should get exactly the same justice as any other individual against whom the same crime at been committed.
That is, equal justice for all of us.
Dude, enough with the #alllivesmatter bullshit.
Aren’t you precious.
Look, let me explain to you something that you would know if you did a simple Google search: Hate crimes are treated as more-extreme crimes because the EFFECTS of them are more severe. When a marginalized person is specifically targeted for violence, it harms more than that person and the people they know. It harms every person in that group, reminding them that they are not safe because of how they were born. It is terrorism in addition to the act of crime itself. It is punished more because it IS more. Violent act itself + terrorism = hate crime. The simplest math. And batting your eyelashes, snarking “aren’t we allll equal, we should punish equally” in response to that is being a turd.
Don’t be a turd.
Even ignoring how hate crimes affect entire communities, not just individuals, there’s the simple reality that they are not currently getting the same justice, they aren’t getting the same protections or opportunities as those in the majority
This is the core issue the social justice movement seeks to address. The status quo does not actually provide justice for all, even by your own narrow definition of justice.
What planet are you from? Because here on Earth, and in the USA, Motivation has _always_ been a factor in justice. Taht’s why we have degrees of negligence, recklessness, and malice. And trying to terrorize a group is a confounding motivation. Accidentally running over someone with a car is not as bad as intentionally murdering someone with a car. Intentionally murdering someone with a car is less bad than intentionally murdering someone with a car to terrify those like the victim.
But they don’t. And that’s the systemic racism. (or whatever bigotry targets that particular marginalized group.)
Nor is it always a crime or a violation of a right. It is for example, legal in many places to fire people because they are gay. Or not rent to or sell houses to, because they are gay. No crime. No legal right. A huge handicap in trying to live your life.
There are laws against those things for race (and gender and religion), but they’re hard to enforce unless people are dumb enough to say that’s why they’re doing it. Which does happen. Otherwise, you need to dig into things like patterns of hiring and firing to see if the data shows bias. It simply can’t be handled on an individual basis.
There are a lot of studies showing this kind of discrimination is actually very common and often unintentional – people actually judge the work or resume or whatever of a person from a marginalized group more harshly.
Our subconsciouses are screwed up and run far more of our lives than we like to think.
Took me a few minutes to figure out what that meant. Yeah, Roz just got served.
Well, at least Roz rolls with the punches. I think she will manage a half-decent class if the other students let her, but she would do much better given some prep time.
If Leslie ever offers to give Roz an actual fair shake, she’d rock a class about safe sex and harmful gendered myths about sexuality (ex. the hymen is supposed to break, sex is supposed to hurt the first time, men are wired to be creepy and rapey because they NEED sex, everyone wants or experiences sexual or romantic attraction, etc.)
And free condoms for everyone!!!
I REALLY hope Leslie give her that chance, regardless of how this turns out. That’s the least she can do.
Well, the least she could do is nothing, but I presume you mean morally.
Riley and Walky: GROSS. WE WANT CEREALS INSTEAD.
Roz: The many flavors of cereals are a metaphor for sexual preferenc…
Walky: …I could listen some more.
Roz: RILEY YOU ARE RUINING MY METAPHOR.
Riley: I DON’T *LIKE* YOUR GROSS METAPHOR. I DON’T *CARE* ABOUT GROSS THINGS.
Roz: RILEY. THAT IS WHAT THIS CLASS WAS LITERALLY ABOUT, I TOLD YOU THIS LIKE 12 TIMES, WHY DID YOU COME WITH ME?
Riley: Because otherwise I have to spend my time being Robin’s cuddly sympathy vote!
Roz: Oh shit, yeah, I’ve been there, I gotcha sis, here, have my phone and my earbuds, I’ve got some Ultra Car episodes on there somewhere, you like Ultra Car and Cheerios are in my bag
Riley: Ooooh. *gets cereal and watches her UC episodes*
Walky: “…Can I…?”
Walky: “ADULTHOOD SUCKS!!!!”
Roz: YOU’RE GETTING GRADED ON THIS SHIT, NOT RILEY. IF YOU WANNA SCREW AROUND, DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE AND WEAR A CONDOM.
Eh, Walky’s not a fan of UC, anyway… he’s a D&MM ‘purist’.
I’m totally headcanoning Riley seeing UC and identifying super strongly because it turns out she’s aro ace.
“See, you gross posters were not applicable after all *sticks out tongue*”
“Actually, I have a poster about that to, wanna see?”
“N… yes, actually.”
*Carla skates by*
“I like the cut of your jib, ragamuffin. I have some things to teach you…”
*presents Riley with a poster in ace/aro spectrum colours with two images side to side: One is a heart, the other is two people on a bed, both of them have a huge no sign over them. The text just reads ‘Not for every one. Protect the ace/aro spectrums*
….I wish I could draw so I could actually make that a real poster.
Definitely! Maybe that will be the apology for fucking her over here.
I’m picturing something like this:
Leslie: Hey, Roz, do you mind giving a guess lecture in like 2 weeks?
Leslie: Maybe when you see the topic?
Roz: Oh god oh god, what is it this ti – OOH, THAT’S SAFE SEX DAY, OKAY, YOU GOT A DEAL!
Leslie: You have to cover harmful gendered sex myths, common misinformation, and basic protection for various genital combos.
Roz: ….I’ve written that like five times in various different presentations, I will be right back, I have information to synthesize.
*guest, not guess.
Awww! : )
*blub* I want this comic to be canon so so much!
That what this SHOULD have been. Hopefully it is what it will be when the dust have settled.
Ahem… Not all of us BBCC
That’s why it was under ‘harmful myths about sex’. Definitely agree not everybody experiences it.
Let’s be fair here. Leslie’s original plan was most likely to be in the room and make Roz stew then take back the class and discuss the topic at hand. However she was then suddenly offered a potential out to her house guest situation that happened to have a time limit, at which point rational thought went out the window because Robin was involved.
That said, now that she’s left Roz dangling in the wind over something that could have waited until later (say when Becky got off work) she is in a position where Roz is indeed owed a fair shake to teach a subject she does know well with enough prep time to do it well enough to make up to the rest of the class the lost session here as well.
Leslie being present would only make throwing a student up to teach without prep or notice or consent and setting them up to fail marginally less dickish imo.
If she wants to test Roz’s teaching ability, a fair shake is the best way to actually do that. Like, a normal teaching day – two weeks to work on a lesson plan and letting her take it from there. Not a situation even full on teachers would find stressful, dickish, or nightmarish or worst case scenario (as a few actual teachers have said they would both in yesterday’s comments and on Patreon).
I’m not trying to say it isn’t poor methodology on Leslie’s part, but that I suspect her intent was too give Roz just enough to actually stop and think about things she’s said and done and hopefully do so before saying and/or doing similar things going forward.
I could definitely have used a class like that while in college. I’m still unwilling to have sex because I’m sorta afraid that I’m going to turn out to be a sex-addict rapist because I’m a guy. It’s not my biggest personal issue, but it has interfered with my ability to have a romantic relationship. So, yeah. Still trying to get over that.
You are not doomed to be a sex addict rapist.
Gah… toxic myths of masculine sexuality strike again.
I’d hazard a guess that your reaction to those ideas is a good sign that you’re not going to turn into some sort of faux-obligate rape-monster.
The sorts of “men” who eagerly embrace those myths are the ones to watch out for.
I won’t pretend to know what brought that thought process about, but I will say that I wish you didn’t hold yourself to such a harmful standard.
Initially a very socially conservative Catholic schooling (which did a 180 when I attended a Jesuit high school which was super liberal Catholicism) and an emotionally abusive self-loathing father who may have been bipolar, definitely had issues with his own father. Also, a very loving mother who was raised by her grandmother and ended up having very puritan views on premarital sex as a result. No idea how those two got along for nearly twenty years.
And that’s fucked up, but that’s not on you. You aren’t some rampaging sex monster who needs to be caged. You’re not going to hurt anybody, no matter what your bullshit fears try to tell you.
Leslie, you monster. You wonderful, wonderful monster.
The thing I’m getting from this arc is that people apparently expect a hell of a lot more maturity and self awareness out of a fucking teenager than a 30 year old college professor and are also way more forgiving of obvious horrible decisions. But maybe it’s just a likability thing.
You know, I’ve been checking some older strips that have both Leslie and roz on them and you seem really willing to forgive all of Roz’s shit and Call Leslie on hers.
Odd double standard.
Don’t know what gives you the impression I’m willing to forgive all of Roz’s shit. If you really went back over all of my comments you would know I’ve said more than once Roz does have shit to learn. But I’m more judgmental of Leslie because she’s an adult in a position of authority and Roz is a freshman in college and is still learning and she’s supposed to be learning from Leslie. Of course I’d have higher expectations for Leslie. How is that an odd double standard?
Because Roz seems to be in more of a position of privilege, maybe. Leslie’s been a bit kicked in the ass by life and is trying to help others, even if she is misled at times. Roz on the other hand seems like she has had a fairly cushy past and existence even though she rebels against it.
While I am deeply sympathetic towards Leslie’s past that past does not change the fact of their current power dynamic. She’s still the authority in the Leslie/Roz dynamic and she needs to use that authority more wisely. You also have to consider that while Roz’s backstory may seem relatively “cushy” from an outside perspective we don’t actually know what her home life was like at all. It’s not really fair to assume that her young age and relative privilege has come with no real challenges at all. Also taking into account just how much more of the real world Leslie has experienced and just how much Roz hasn’t as a freshman I think expecting the same level of maturity and empathy from her as Leslie is asking a lot. She may be a legal adult but she iis still a child. She is still learning. Fuck your brain doesn’t even finish developing until you’re what, 25?I am not saying that her young age excuses every bad decision. I’m way less forgiving of Mary because her bad behavior almost lead to someone’s suicide and was so long term and calculated. With Roz though I think she genuinely means well and is not completely aware of how she comes off. I think she is starting to become more and more aware of that though.
I also think that some people are so sympathetic towards everything Leslie has endured they’re willing to bend over backwards and justify obvious bad judgment and irresponsibility on Leslie’s part. I think it is completely okay to like Leslie as a person but liking her as a person and knowing this is not her being her best self should not mean bending over backwards to make obvious bad decisions on her part that we would never be okay with someone (for ex Jason) doing being okay because we like Leslie and Leslie’s the one doing it and Leslie has had some bad shit happen to her so it has to be okay because it’s Leslie. No, that’s not how this should work.
Conspiring with a student was a bad idea even if their end goal was a noble one because it further blurred the boundaries of their relationship and made it seem like they’re on an even playing field, when they’re not. Leaving Roz like this and dragging Becky off like she is is just a bad decision plan and simple. It doesn’t matter what Roz may have done to “deserve it”. It’s an irresponsible decision. Leslie is in charge of that classroom and anything that happens while she’s there and when she willingly decides to walk out on it without making sure the person left responsible is actually responsible enough for the job and someone that will be listened to. And I am insulted on Leslie’s behalf that so many people are calling Roz this heartless master manipulator who conned Leslie into making bad choices. Roz does not have that much power over Leslie. Leslie’s choices are her choices and she is responsible for them. She was responsible for agreeing to work with Roz. She was responsible for agreeing to go out with Robin. She was NOT responsible for Robin’s batshit behavior afterwards but she is responsible for dragging Becky into her personal drama when what Becky really needs is a responsible adult in her life and she IS responsible for putting Roz in a vulnerable and potentially embarrassing position by abandoning her job in the middle of the day when she had the option not to.
Tell you what, you get stuck putting up with an abusive representative who denies your personhood crashing in your house due to media presence and anti-performative sexuality, then let me know how rationally and charitably you deal with the person who in your mind is most likely to be the mastermind.
Only, she wasn’t, really. She at several points asked Leslie if she wanted to do it and if this is what Leslie wanted, and Leslie agreed and actively pursued Robin until she saw Robin being toxic in her classroom. And then Roz went: “Well, this plan is over, sucks for me,” and walked off without pressuring her. And then Leslie went out of her way to drink with Robin and talk to her, and then Robin flipped and went stalker.
So really, Leslie was a willing participant in all of this and if she’s blaming Roz for it, she’s still being shitty? The point still stands: one of these people is an older adult in a position of power and the other is a student?
Leslie was a willing participant in this up until Robin forced herself into her house, and she has reason to believe that Roz had something to do with the media presence in that bar.
And I’m not saying Leslie made a good decision by any stretch of the imagination. I’m simply saying that given how mentally taxed she is, it’s understandable she made a bad one.
Pretty sure Leslie has no such reason to think that. The viewer has some limited reason to think that, but it’s still kind of a stretch.
She has at LEAST some reason to think that (after all, Roz definitely had means and opportunity, and it’s not inconceivable that she would do something like that). We as comic viewers know she probably didn’t, but Leslie has a very different perspective than we.
I’m not saying that’s definitely what Leslie thinks. I’m saying that if I were Leslie that’s what I would suspect.
No. It’s not sufficient that ‘in the wider universe, this is possible’. Many things are possible. Leslie has no actual reason to suspect Roz. What viewers are using to make that conclusion /is/ a thing, but it’s a thing Leslie didn’t see, that almost certainly did get back to her.
Except that the last interaction Roz saw between Leslie and Robin was Leslie kicking Robin out of the class. As far as Roz knew, the plan had failed. She definitely wasn’t there to see Robin invite Leslie out for drinks. She wouldn’t have known that they were going out, let alone where to. Roz might have expected their rendezvous to be seen by the press, but she would have no more reason to expect that than Leslie and certainly couldn’t have orchestrated it at that point.
It doesn’t matter what Roz saw. What matters is what Leslie could plausibly think Roz might have — you know what I give up.
But leslie _can’t_ plausibly think Roz might have set her up. There _isn’t anything that makes that plausible_. That’s the point.
It’s not /entirely/ true Roz didn’t pressure her. She did mention some fo the shit she was putting up with for the plan, and ask once for her to continue it. It was light, but it was still, well, kinda bad.
I’ve been looking through the Leslie+Roz tags and I can’t find any examples of Roz checking to make sure Leslie was still ok with the plan. The closest I can find is Roz asking if she was still “wrangling [her] congresswoman sister here so [she] can make goo goo eyes at her?” after Leslie admonished her to behave. The “this plan is over” moment was Roz complaining about the free helicopter rides she gave up to make the meeting happen.
“Am I still doing this” is kind of checking to make sure the plan is still on. It’s not asking her thrice and checking things super hard, but it’s very much actually confirming whether or not she wants to proceed.
Except it was preceded by “OK, so we’re no longer friendly.” I read the context as applying pressure. Not “Are you still ok with this?”, but rather “You’re mad at me, but remember that I’m doing you a favor.”
It seemed more like “We’re no longer friendly. Is this plan still on?”
It was never – ever – just a way to get leslie laid. It was not just a ‘favor’ for leslie. There was an actual goal. That goal was to teach Robin empathy for queer people by helping her realize she’s into girls too. That Leslie might get Lucky was fine and all, (and helped convince Leslie herself of it), but I really doubt that’s how Roz ever saw it – if it was, she would probably have abandoned it, because a favor from her professor in a class she was 100% confident she could pass while sleeping with her eyes tied behind her back and her hands closed, is worthless. You accrue those kinds of favors in classes you’re not confident in. And even then, it’s really rare to go through the pain that Roz evidently did for this (at least, not without a convoluted and well established reason that Passing the Class is Important. I’m sure this has happened in a movie.)
I don’t mean to suggest that Roz saw this as a favor to Leslie, but that she was couching it to Leslie that way to ensure that Leslie would participate. The way she phrased it as “so you can make goo goo eyes at her” presents it as a favor, or at least presents what Leslie hopes to gain for herself rather than the objective of the plan as a whole.
To me it felt like Roz was saying “You stand to lose something by chastising me.”
I just can’t see it that way, given that they trade snaps (granted, after). I saw it more as just a genuine question. “Do you still want to be in cahoots with me, friend or not, or are we off?” And that’s still kind of an important question.
I can respect that. I’m a bit more cynical about Roz’s motives, but I can certainly see how reading her arc in a way that affords her a bit more latitude is valid.
To be clear, I don’t think Roz is an awful person. I think she is a fundamentally good person with honorable intentions who makes decisions that end up hurting others. Most of the main cast are that way (with a few notable exceptions *cough* Mike *cough*).
I’d say it’s very unclear what Roz’s actual goal here was. Definitely involved her personal troubles with Robin more than anything. Certainly not a favor to Leslie – even though she made it seem like that at times.
A teenager who perpetually *puts herself in the position* of being a super outspoken activist and ally. Nobody expects this stuff of Dina or Billie or Amber or Sal, because they don’t carry themselves like big signs saying I’M THE KIND OF PERSON YOU GO TO FOR THIS KIND OF PROBLEM.
Being a good ally is easy.
Poor Dorothy 🙁
Now she will have some time of “NO PLAY AT ALL”, but hopefully she will find a bit of a balance. TELL WALKY AND JOYCE, DOROTHY!!!!
All I can think happening here is that she’ll do her best to twist things around so she can try and convince the class that what she does isn’t performative for its own sake, but to draw attention to the issue, and not herself.
Meanwhile the class is going to poke a few holes in her logic until she becomes upset.
Then probably a soft spoken or rage induced comment from one of the characters who are being quiet through most of this, my money’s on Dorothy, is going to shut her up for a few seconds. Which will lead to a scene transition away to what happens AFTER the whole Robin thing, and when we come back, class will be over.
Leslie you magnificent bastard…
At the start of today you had:
1> an unwanted house guest
2> a student who was highly dismissive of your work, saw you as an acceptable casualty in achieving her goals and was instrumental in placing that unwanted guest in your house. However unintentional that last part was she did still gloat about it
3> a PR nightmare
4> a non-student you wanted to meet and to help
Since arriving at work you have:
A> printed a lot of material to help the girl in 4 above and a fairly simple lesson plan for the day (more on that plan later)
B> arrived in class apparently in PR spin mode only to drop instead right into pushing 4 which provided a nice distraction from 3
C> jumped 4 into a play to remove 1 while still also doing 4
D> used all that as a means to dump teaching the class on 2, which is, at this point, both a clear punishment for her role in 1 and a learning point for her about the need to sometimes accept responsibility, in both senses here, even if you don’t wish to and
E> made the lesson plan you left her with a clear ironic signal of her need to accept the problems with the type of “victory” she achieved through sacrificing you
I now begin to wonder if your mother’s maiden name was Xanatos…
Thanks to anyone who read all that, it kinda contains comments I wanted to make the last few days but didn’t due to dealing with the aftereffects of a nice bout of food poisoning. It’s always so much time and typing to say what I want to on here compared to, for example, IW!, yet also so much meatspace stuff to do that eats my time to type and edit it and then the embrace of Morpheus.
food? poisoning? Eww… Hope you’re feeling better now.
Nope, this was shitty. If it’s wrong of Roz to shout at Joyce in frustration for being slow to learn about her gross homophobia because this is a classroom ‘safe environment’ and “we comment on the issues, not each other,” it’s also wrong for Leslie to make a passive aggressive petty-ass move leaving Roz in charge of the class with no training, no time to plan, and a lesson that’s an unsubtle ‘fuck you.’
Fucking thank you. I 100% accept that Leslie had a duty to stop Roz when she did that class. Leslie /does/. She has an actual fucking job, and that job specifically is to help prevent incredibly personal conflict from erupting in class time.
But the thing is, the /exact thing that means she has a duty to stop Roz means she isn’t supposed to take petty vengeance/. I mean, she’s /not/, I think, because I’m like 99.99999~% positive that every part of this is the sort of hilarious accident that wacky hijinx are the stuff of, but people really aren’t seeing that at all.
Even if the lesson plan is a coincident her snide as fuck challenge in yesterday’s strip sure as hell was intentional.
Unequivocally. And unequivocally dickish, but also funny in a wacky hijinx sense.
I mean really, what I’m learning so far is that this college clearly is badly run
It’s like Hogwarts! I know there must be consistently good teachers somewhere if I squint!
It’s kind of a fascinating unintentional message of your alma mater isn’t it?
Have you seen some of Willis’s posts about Indiana? I’m not entirely sure the message is “unintentional”…
Willis seems to be on good terms with his alma mater. It’s La Porte he doesn’t seem so keen on.
I think the idea that this is somehow a traumatizing or important moment ascribes more importance to a 1st year college class than any should ever be treated with.
Unlikely to be traumatic for Roz.
I’d more describe it as unprofessional, short-sighted, petty, dickish…
I mean, my first year of college, I couldn’t find my class and arrived late and already wrapped up in anxiety because of lateness. My professor told me in front of the class that by arriving late I’d proven that I wasn’t suited to the work ethic of the college and should rethink my enrollment. Compounded with my own abuse-related anxiety, my at the time severe depression, and the still-present stress rush from not being able to find the class, I excused myself mid-class and had a panic attack in the restrooms.
People who knew me at the time described me as seeming competent, composed, and together. Suffice to say, with depression killing my executive function and anxiety killing everything else, I dropped out of college. I haven’t gone back. That first day of class is one of my clearest memories.
I’m not saying that this strip is like that or that Roz is anything like me. This certainly won’t be traumatizing for Roz. But for fuck’s sake, traumatizing events don’t have to seem traumatizing to anyone else. I’m sure some people would have considered that professor a dick and moved on with their life, but to me, that statement was traumatizing. And it happened in a first year college class! Being dismissive isn’t really helpful.
oh my god what a horrible teacher.
like. i was telling myself that bullshit when i got a D in my statistics class…i can’t even imagine what i would have done if i’d had an actual teacher tell me something like that. i’m so sorry you had to go through that
Come one, come all and see the giant tire fire! No other tire fire is quite so tall and precarious!
Panel 1: Oh Leslie… Oh Leslie.
Like I feel I gave my sympathies for what I feel is driving her decision here as well as why this decision is so so bad and harmful and upsetting from my point of view as a teacher, but it bears repeating.
Yes, she’s dealing with a major stressor and is probably not in a fit state to teach and is heavily tempted to flee and get things taken care of now. But, that’s what class cancellations are for.
And college kids are used to class cancellations. Shit comes up, you come to class to see a note on the door, you go home. And I’ve had professors cancel in the middle of class before. To be fair that’s because they had to run out of the class to vomit, but still, it’s not unprecedented.
And it’s good that she’s not throwing Roz fully to the lions here in that she is leaving her with a lesson plan and theoretically the materials for today’s activity.
But this is still an awful fuckup on Leslie’s part and deeply deeply unprofessional and disrespectful to her students. Like, I love Leslie to death and I think her morality has been shown repeatedly and that she’s going to see exactly how fucked up this is when she’s not in a panic state and make very earnest apologies and attempts to make amends, but this?
No. You don’t do this.
And I say this as someone who was put in a very Roz position when I was younger. My AP Bio teacher had a mid-life crisis and so frequently left class to go creep on college girls with his sportscar. So, I ended up having to step up whenever he had one of his “episodes” and try and cover the remaining material as best I could.
It sucked. So yeah, very very disappointed in Leslie right now. Bad teacher! No tenure!
Panels 2-3: These panels actually make me feel a little better about Dorothy. Because she’s clearly recognizing that she’s spreading herself thin and that her extra-curricular activities to “look good” are impairing her actual studies. Which, yeah, that’s a thing. Like, it’s easy to get over-committed to things and then find yourself stretched and Dorothy has been pushing herself to the limits taking in more and more extracurricular activities and trying to look for whatever edge she can on top of trying to support her loved ones emotionally and materially and on top of what she’s stated is a “heavy classload”.
And I like this, because the priorities she is making are good ones so far. Yeah, she’s pulling back from her friends a bit, but I doubt she’s going to fully abandon them, just not be constantly trying to give support and assuming she’s the only support network. And dropping her newspaper writing a bit is probably a good call as is being grateful for not getting the RA position.
And she’s even being way less brusque to Walky here, explaining her reasoning to a degree. So yeah, I think she’s rebalancing and she’s going to be okay. So yay!
I like that Walky is paying attention to his girlfriend’s needs here despite the incredible distraction going on. He definitely knows something’s up now.
That too. A+ boyfriending by him!
I forgot, how many extra-curriculars is Dorothy doing? I know there’s the newspaper and I think doing volunteer work at either a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter. And then I think she’s doing a couple others (given her aspirations I would assume she’s on some form of speech and debate team or something of the sort). Because that is a lot. I was barely able to balance one extra-curricular alongside my classes, and not very well at that (as past comments will show I had a lot of issues during college).
Yup. It’s just so unprofessional, especially given the multiple just-as-easy-solutions that would have allowed Leslie to skip class without putting Roz on the spot. Again, simplest of them would have been to just ASK Roz if she was OK with the class and spend five minutes to talk her through the material.
Heh, you are painting us quite a colorful picture of your teachers. 🙂
Dorothy is still in “No play” mode, which does not make for very effective learning. She need to pace herself better and cut down on some things, but cramming EVERYTHING into EVERY MINUTE is not the answer. Hopefully she will calm down a bit once the bad news settles.
I mentioned above that given her mental state after what’s happened recently, it’s understandable that she would not make the best of choices, but yeah, despite that particular mitigating factor it’s still a shitty thing to do. Entertaining, but shitty.
Yeah, the no play side is worrying, but the scaling back in general is encouraging.
And yeah… my days in school were… “fun”. Probably a big part of why I take teaching so seriously and why I work so hard to be the exact opposite of what I had growing up.
Also YES! There are so many better solutions and yeah, one of them would be asking her if she was comfortable, taking her outside with the lesson plan, explaining that you’re in a bind with her sister and you could really use this favor even though you know how inappropriate it is to even ask, asking her what she would feel comfortable with. Like, it’s still worse than just canceling the class, but it would be a fair sight better than… this.
My initial read was that the thing Dorothy didn’t have time for was Joyce, which would obviously be a severe over-correction, but if she just means the newspaper, then I think you’re right, and she’s just being more realistic about her limitations
I’m pretty sure she means the newspaper, but I think also she means not believing that Joyce is fragile and needs her there as moral support 24/7. Like, yeah, there are times Joyce will need her friend and I fully believe Dorothy will be there for them, but Joyce also knows her friend is busy and has other stuff going on and has respected that consistently in the past.
And this? Yeah, it’s going to be a complete trainwreck, but Joyce isn’t actually going to be much at risk in it and doesn’t necessarily need moral support at this moment.
So… Um… What if Robin’s interns are sent to retrieve her? :/
Those would be some VERY unlucky bros
-toasts marshmallows on the tirefire, filling them with yummy carcinogens-
I think Dorothy could stand to talk to Billie again or Sal. Someone who can give her some perspective and ‘One C isn’t the end of the world, you’ll be fine’ chat she needs.
Ecch, as somebody who pressures myself heavily, those kinds of conversations only added “and nobody understands that this is important” to my troubles. Dorothy doesn’t need somebody to tell her to set her sights lower. She’s not gonna.
Yeah, I read that now – I was thinking more like “Dorothy, I get this matters to you, but it’s okay, you can still do awesome with one C. This doesn’t automatically mean you’re going to fuck up everything you do, you’ll be okay.” but I did not write that well.
Based on what Dorothy just said, I get this feeling we’re going to eventually see her burnout & burnout HARD. She’s going to end up pushing herself to the breaking point, but not realize it until it’s too late, or refuse to admit it to herself.
I was actually expecting her to get the RA position so she could drop the plates she’s spinning hilariously (and tragically, but also hilariously.) The thought legitimately hadn’t occured to me she could just fuck up in a course. Only Walky has grades! (Not remotely true, but hey)
I figured getting the RA position would cause the burnout to happen more quickly, but I have always kind of guessed that is where her story could go. She puts so much on herself that it will eventually catch up to her at some point.
Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting. This is going to be a very…unique day for everyone involved.
Leslie, you clever bastage.
That’s sad if that’s all Roz is, though. I thought she wasn’t just “performing” that much.
She’s genuine about what she believes, but she is also performing. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Some people, both pro- and anti-Leslie, seem to think that this is some amazing pre-planned event. That Leslie is behind the scenes thinking “Oh yes, this will be the day that I skip out on class and hoist Roz up by her own petard, bwah-ha-ha-ha!”
A much simpler possibility is that, because of the DoA time dilation, the events of are recent to the students there, and the lesson has come up organically, i.e. Leslie thought “Okay, we’ll have to talk about this, won’t we? How about next week?” (To us it has been over two years; to them, perhaps two weeks.) And the fact of the confluence of Robin/Roz/Becky just manages to make this amusingly poignant.
Then again, maybe Leslie is The Devil because she’s throwing Roz into the deep end of the pool with twenty-pound weights attached to her ankles. Will she ever get over the trauma of learning that teaching a class takes some skill and preparation?
It could go either way, really.
And helping me to try to get my point across is bad formatting and the inability to edit or delete my post. Grr.
Honestly, it would be easier if the HTML parser on these comments were pedantic about closing tags; that way someone couldn’t make the (easy) mistake you made and would be forced to consider the actual formatting. There are people who like the machine’s ability to fix broken code into something valid by (I can only assume) naïvely closing all open tags at the end of the input stream. However, that will never be something that anyone wants to do, ever. It’s like type safety in programming languages. Sure, you could work in a language that can treat all types of variables as identical, but when would you ever want that?
But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
tl;dr fuck Matlab and the proprietary virtual machine it rode in on
Panel 4: Roz, you are a goddamn trooper. Like, after Leslie called her out and especially the way she called her out and how nervous we saw the idea make her, for her to just step up and give it a college go with what genuinely seems like humility and attempted grace?
That deserves mad props! Also, good teacher segueing! That’s actually a pretty hard skill to pick up, so again, mad props for nailing it.
Panels 5-6: … Okay, I’m going to have a few reactions to this.
1) Holy fucking shit, Leslie, ice fucking cold. Like, yeah, that’s definitely a lesson already pretty heavily tailored in response to Roz’s recent actions, but to know that and then essentially dare Roz to teach it herself? Damn.
Especially because it also makes her teaching into the object lesson itself. Here she is talking about the performative allyship and the removal of people’s actual life experiences while the two lesbians (that we know about) bail off away from everything. She’s literally been made into a metaphor on the topic that was already kinda throwing shade on her to begin with.
2) And because of 1, this feels a bit like revenge and frankly… frankly, I don’t think there is ever an acceptable time for a teacher to “get revenge” on a student. Yes, I imagine Leslie has some bad blood for Roz over how the Robin thing went down as well as Roz’s role in the epically disastrous queer identities class, but that’s not even remotely an excuse for doing anything even remotely retaliatory towards a student.
Like, yes, this is probably just me, but this is one of those things that deeply upset me. I’ve had teachers who liked to “get revenge”. I’ve been targeted by one or two. But even if I hadn’t, I think I would have a heavy aversion to this, simply because that sort of bullying shit from a teacher has no place in a school.
Like, kids are kids and very much fuckups, but that’s why it’s on teachers to roll with the punches and re-establish classroom management and mete appropriate discipline without making things personal.
Like, I’ve had kids in my classes sometimes pull things that deeply upset me. One very deliberately tried to hurt me just to see how I would react. I feel genuinely sick at the thought of ever mistreating them in response to that. Like, my own reaction was to calmly explain why what they did was hurtful to people of larger communities.
So for Leslie, a character I greatly admire and whose teaching scenes I greatly enjoy to pull a stunt like this? It really doesn’t sit right. I mean, I know she’ll eventually make this better, but right now, I don’t feel good.
3) I already see the “big words equals bad and iz dumb because humanities no supposed to use big words” crowd are starting to seep in, but this topic is actually an important one.
Like, how folks show allyship is important. Especially as oftentimes, allies are in a position where they have spent a life-time absorbing messages that their voice and their opinions are more valuable than the group who they want to show allyship to and are also in a position where they are assumed to know more about any topic than the marginalized person but actively know less because they don’t have personal experience.
As such, that earnest desire to do good can get really really ugly or harmful at times. Like, we’ve all probably seen that ally who tries to correct people with an identity “on behalf” of other people with that identity. Or the ally who gets really upset when you mention that something they said was problematic and threatens to withdraw their support for your humanity.
Or the ally who finds themselves talking over the folks with the marginalized identities. Or the “ally” who keeps falling for bigoted articles and thinking they’re insightful when they are actually incredibly hateful and harmful. Or the ally who only seems to listen to other allies on an issue and not the folks they are trying to ally with. Or the “ally” who is straight up a predator hoping to come off as “one of the good ones” because they fetishize our identity in some way and is hoping to bone us (chasers. That’s all I’m going to say).
And there’s a societal problem that feeds into it, because dominant group folks only ever want to hear about a marginalized group from other dominant group members.
For example, there’s a flood of awful articles about trans people written by cis people for a cis person audience. And all the writers of these awful articles would be quick to claim they are not transphobic, while also centering the life experiences of cis people and their ignorant fears of what being trans means.
This especially happens a lot in articles about trans kids where actual trans kids are rarely interviewed, but nervous parents of trans kids are frequently sought out to write articles about their fears, ambivalence, or outright rejection of their kid’s trans status. And that leads to real harm against trans kids by the target audience of nervous cis parents identifying strongly with that at the expense of their own children’s lived experiences, because that speaks more directly to their assumptions and fears.
And when weaponized in society it can get even worse. There’s a reason that every racist group states they are not racist. That every sexist group states they are not sexist. That every transphobic group states they are not transphobic, while at the same time preaching hate. Because, there’s a strong cultural reward in posing oneself as someone super sympathetic to a hated marginalized community, but just pushed to the edge by them asking for rights too fast/critiquing bigoted individuals/asking for rights period and so troubled by how the “slippery slope” we’re now on. And there are no end of papers willing to scoop you up and give you a platform for that type of disingenuous bile.
And since no one ever seems to hear from the marginalized people themselves. From actual black people, actual trans people, actual disabled people. Well, it means that the inaccurate dominant group idea of those groups gets centered and treated as the truth. And so everyone just ends up “knowing” that trans people are cis men in skirts trying to harm your children, that black people are “naturally criminals”, that disabled people are just faking for huge amounts of disability money.
And it makes me sad. Because this is a topic that deserves genuine respect from a teacher with a lot of lived experience dealing with this shit and instead it’s being wasted on a bit of shade against a person (I’m still suspicious that Roz is eggmode non-binary, which would make this an extra layer of fucked up) who really doesn’t deserve that amount of shade (like, yeah, she’s fucked up in key ways and does tend to view herself as Super Ally, savior of the groups she’s allied to, but still she’s an 18-year-old kid who’s lived through years of the shit that’s reducing Leslie to a wreck after one day).
It’s a wasted opportunity for a lesson that’s going to be super necessary for all the students in her class.
As a teacher, there are some things you can just never have with your students. Revenge is one of them.
“But what if…”
No, not even then. Never means never.
Bull shit. You still have the right to act like a human being. Making up a bullshit rule that keeps you from doing the right thing.
Seriously, It’s very fucking clear that all this is because you guys like Roz. You attacked me for pointing out Roz was bad before. And Cerberus has this idea that Roz is non-binary, and thus supports her regardless of her being a bad person.
Both of you are doing evil by defending someone who is doing evil.
And, since you can’t defend Roz directly, you make up excuses to attack Leslie, who the comic has made clear did the right thing. Look at the response.
Seriously, this is the reason why a lot of people don’t join the cause properly. They see people doing this, contradicting what is supposed to be Right and Wrong. They’ll defend the horrible peson.
Roz is the bad guy who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. Leslie is the good guy who did the right thing in calling her out.
Making up this bullshit is no better than when people defended Mary by saying Carla was horrible.
Acting like a human being and being a petty fuck when you’re the teacher are two different things.
Having a lecture on this topic? Fine. Doing the completely unprofessional thing by ducking out of the classroom, not cancelling class, not seeking someone qualified to teach and throwing a student up to teach with no warning, prep, or consent?
That is unprofessional as shit and yeah, it deserves to be called out too.This just in: Roz can be an asshole and Leslie can still be wrong.
Bull. I have serious issues with Roz (and I’m getting even more suspicious of her after her comment at the start of this sequence) and I think Leslie screwed up bigtime.
I like Leslie a lot (I’m pretty sure Cerberus does too, from what she’s said), but I think she’s screwing up badly here – both by dumping the class on Roz (especially as payback or an object lesson) and by involving Becky (and Joyce) in her trouble with Robin. She’s not showing herself well here.
Damn, I didn’t even think about that last point. Because of this, Roz may just end up never properly learning the most important lesson she should take away from this class.
Leslie is off her game today. Must be that whole “a congresswoman who actively works to deny my rights is currently crashing in my house uninvited and also I still kinda have a crush on them” thing.
Yup. I fully believe that Leslie at 100% does not make this error. This is a fuck up. A bad one at that. But this is also a fuck up fueled by desperation, fear, general awfulness, and having one’s complete routine disrupted.
Which is also the same reason I’m way less harsh on Roz’s fuck ups than most as well as Ruth’s more modern fuck ups (her early bullying is still pretty shit). People under extreme stress are not always able to show you their best side.
Eh, also, the best way to learn something through and through is to teach it. From Roz’s tone (and previous . . . everything), she knows plenty about this issue intellectually. This is a chance for her to dig in and really get it out – she falls victim to it too, everyone does. I’m sure she’s had men talk over her about feminism.
Sure this might not be Best Teacher Ever award, but it’s not the worst thing.
idk it doesn’t have to be The Worst Thing to be a Deeply Screwed Up Thing
“I’m still suspicious that Roz is eggmode non-binary”
I Googled, but stil feel no wiser. Cerberus, if you don’t mind my asking:
1) What is an eggmode non-binary?
2) Why are you suspicious?
I believe that “eggmode non-binary” means that Roz doesn’t fit into the “either or” model of American gender identity (gender is a social construct based partially on the biological sex one is assigned at birth), but has yet to realize this. Part of the suspicion comes from the fact that a) Roz has not asserted her gender identity and b) there have been times were Roz has not acted entirely like a cis-woman. I happen to think Roz might be gender fluid, as in there are times when being male would feel more comfortable and times when being female feels more comfortable. At least this is my (admittedly probably flawed) understanding of non-binary and gender fluid individuals.
This. Eggmode means they haven’t figured out their identity yet, non-binary means they identify as something other than exclusively male or exclusively female.
And my suspicions are mostly piqued by the seemingly personal investment she gets with queer issues that feels more than just simple allyship, the fact that a lot of her androgynous styles are pretty common among non-binary folks I’ve known including some of my students, and a few other choice moments.
I dunno, my transceiver is lightly spinning for her, but that could just be powered by vain hope.
Well, fnark. This is going to be all kinds of trouble.
For Roz, I mean. Definitely not talking about myself, nope, not at all.
I mean, she’s an 18-year-old college freshman, not a 48 year old, uhm, something. Whatever.
Pardon me, but I need to go hide some more.
*hugs* I support you! And I believe that it doesn’t matter what age you find your authentic self.
I just hope I do some day.
Hell, I just hope I actually have an authentic self to find. I’m not at all convinced that I do.
To clarify, I have, over the past fifteen years, had a growing sense that I am non-binary, but I have had a lot of difficulty addressing the topic, if only because other, related-but-not-really relevant psychological problems were even more pressing, primarily severe chronic depression.
I was well on my way to healing eight years ago when circumstances led me to move in with my father, who had just moved to Hell, I’m sorry, I mean Georgia (him going to Hell, or whatever else he found after death if anything, came later). This was a Bad Thing, because while he was a well-intentioned and loving as a person like him was capable of, he also very likely checked off three out of the four main Cluster B personality disorders (he wasn’t quite ASPD, but it wasn’t easy to tell – Cluster B types generally won’t go into therapy except on a court order, if then, and rarely take it seriously if they do).
I was set back by at least 20 years practically from the moment I stepped into the landing ramp at Hartsfield-Jackson.
In addition to all of that, I was already suspecting that my ‘correct’ general demeanor and presentation would eventually be predominantly feminine, which was pretty much out of the question while he still lived – not because he would disapprove, quite the contrary (though he made it clear from my childhood on that approval wasn’t in the cards, anyway). He was all too enthusiastic to see me step into a female role – because it fit his own rather pathological views of gender roles, and specifically about sexual dominance and submissiveness. He had me pegged as a ‘sub’ from the start, and… well, let’s just say that if he’d raised any children who were biologically female, it would have gone very badly. The fact that he was forcing his sexuality in everyone’s face (leading my brother and sister-in-law to cut him off from my nieces on more than one occasion), and that he was clearly grooming me to be a submissive for one of his domme or gay male dom friends (he was pretty damn straight himself, so he wasn’t going to touch me directly as long as I was physically male) just added to the creepiness.
Just to clarify two matters: first, I am pansexual myself, having had partners who were g-male, g-female, transmale, transfemale, and intersexed. Why gender was so much harder for me to address than sexual orientation isn’t clear, but I gather that this is anything but unusual for trans and non-binary folk.
Second, when I say he was forcing his sexuality on others, it goes well beyond just being open and honest. It was not about honesty, despite his claims; it was about control and dominance in both sexual and non-sexual contexts. He did it primarily to put people off-balance, and deliberately offended people (including my brother) with it.
Oh, and did I mention that he was running an adult toy store, with a strong focus on BDSM gear? And that he roped me into working on it? Yeah. I mean, it is one thing to build a website and help with shipping, which was awkward but not too bad, but he would go to swingers and BSDM parties with a load of gear to be sold, and would have me help with the sales.
Why is this a problem? Simple: he would demonstrate to toys on potential clients. Right in front of his eldest child, the one for whom he was the namesake. And would expect me to do the same in front of him. Yikes.
*giant hugs offered* That’s awful. Those types of creepers in the BDSM community are a threat to everyone and I’m sorry that you got a lot of the worst of it.
And I’m glad that you are free of him and are able to regain a space to emotionally recover from his awfulness.
I firmly believe you will find your true self and I fully support your explorations to see that and fully affirm your non-binaryness.
You are an amazing person and did not deserve all the shit you had to deal with while he was still alive. Your life is your own now and I fully support you in claiming it!
Damn it, posted too soon. I should qualify all of this by saying that it was from 2009 to 2014, at which time I was in my early to mid forties. Still, he never acknowledged my discomfort with it, and brushed it off when I mentioned it, because it was part of the mind games he was playing with me, and everyone else around him.
I should also mention that he was still trying to run the store in 2015, the year he died, but he was too ill to continue. I had spent most of a year in my own apartment in 2014, but lost my job early in 2015 and moved back in April, just two weeks before he died. He died of a massive heart attack minutes after returning home from a hospital stay, while I distracted by a phone call – I was out of the room for less than a minute, and when I stepped back he was already dead. Despite all, it was very painful to know he was gone.
Personally, based on what she has said and how she interacts with her sister, I’ve always assumed one of the big reasons she is an “ally” is because it is the opposite of her sister’s position. It feels like most of her actions and personality are reactions to her familial environment.
There’s certainly truth in that, but I also think it’s as an outgrowth of her real focus, which isn’t so much as ally to the LGBT community, but as an sex-positive advocate – safe sex, reproductive rights and all that. A position in which she isn’t an ally, but as a woman a member of the marginalized group.
The LGBTQ stuff gets more attention here, and she definitely sees herself as an ally, but it’s not what she really cares about.
Cerberus & Rukduk, thanks for the enlightening answers.
I admit I asked because I wondered if there was such a thing as ‘toxic feminity’. I heard about ‘toxic masculinity’ in these very comments – very enlightening, and so prevalent in my old school you couldn’t even suggest (for eg) that Brad Pitt was better looking than Steve Buscemi without getting thoroughly ostracised.
It just seemed to me that female characters were getting their sexuality questioned far more than the male ones – I recall Sal getting flagged this way, for telling Marcie that Malaya shouldn’t find her physically unattractive. Can’t Sal be straight and still acknowledge Marcie is fit, without getting her sexuality questioned? And here I felt like Roz and Riley were being flagged rather in the same way..?
Quite possible I’m missing telltales or just ignorant – a lot of commentators here inhabit worlds I’d never even heard of (I don’t think I’d even heard the term cis before) so I have learnt a lot of these comments. Aaand I’ve just realised that time-lag means I’m a day late to reply anyway. Heh.
It’s never too late for an education.
It’s a pet theory of Cerberus based on flimsy evidence. It obscures her ability to look at things objectively. Roz is, as far as we know, fully cishet, and definitely believes she is.
It is why she can defend someone who has been shown in comic to be a complete asshole. She’s just confused about her own sexuality.
Other people defend her based on saying they used to be an asshole like her. But they neglect that the only way they became not such an asshole is that someone called them on their bullshit.
Instead, they want to come up with any excuse to blame Leslie. It is, as I said, the same tactic used in the election, where people had to find reasons to blame Hillary any time someone pointed out a problem with Trump.
No, these people aren’t as bad as Trump supporters, as Roz isn’t as bad as Trump by a long shot. But it’s still the same thing.
And until people stop doing this, this place is not a safespace, but a war zone against this type of Irrational bullshit where you defend the characters you like.
Just like when we have to defend Becky or Carla. Just like they have to figure out ways that Carla or Becky are the real bad guys.
“Roz did something awful. Yay Leslie for calling her out!” “Nuh, uh. Leslie is the bad guy. She’s older. She should know better.”
It’s all bullshit. Roz is the one who did wrong. Leslie is correcting that. Everyone who likes Roz has to make excuses.
Cerberus has criticized Roz for her bad behavior and praised Leslie for calling it out. You’re dismissing her because you think she can’t be objective about Roz while in the same breath complaining that she’s criticizing Leslie, who she just as much reason to identify with.
You are unironically pulling the exact kind of shit you’re so insistent Roz should be condemned for without mercy. You clearly loathe Roz and that’s fine, but this is not a good look, and I think you’re better than this.
The entire first page of approved comments on my dash is trikly arguing at people that they’re doing LBGT wrong.
…people really make optimism a challenge sometimes -_-
In fairness, Leslie didn’t come in thinking “time to get vengeance!”, she came in thinking “time to talk about an important subject that is topical given Roz’s recent behaviour”, and wound up spur of the moment leaving. It’s still bad to both put Roz on the spot (since that itself is kind of motivated by revenge) and while not premeditated she still knowingly made Roz teach that subject, but I think her motives were less bad than it looks at the outset.
Oh very much so, if she had planned this from the beginning I’d be genuinely re-evaluating Leslie’s character, but it being more of a spur of the moment decision makes it more “no, what are you doing, you are going to hate yourself when the connotation fully hits you”.
“And when weaponized in society it can get even worse. There’s a reason that every racist group states they are not racist. That every sexist group states they are not sexist. That every transphobic group states they are not transphobic, while at the same time preaching hate. Because, there’s a strong cultural reward in posing oneself as someone super sympathetic to a hated marginalized community, but just pushed to the edge by them asking for rights too fast/critiquing bigoted individuals/asking for rights period and so troubled by how the “slippery slope” we’re now on. And there are no end of papers willing to scoop you up and give you a platform for that type of disingenuous bile. ”
And not that it’s anything like the worst part, but it also makes it very hard to be genuinely not *-ist or *-phobic, but also skeptical in a public way that specific ideas of causality are accurate, or that specific tactics or solutions are productive. When real actual bigots are saying “I’m not a bigot!”, it’s very easy for people who aren’t bigots to be called bigots the instant they express skepticism towards specific claims made by others who are in theory on their side and simply disagree about the details.
Frankly, I’m always tempted to call bullshit whenever people say they’re not *ist* or *phobic*. Were you raised on this planet? Then yeah, you probably are. There’s so much subtler stuff it’s almost impossible not to have internalized some of it. Yes, even if you’re part of the group being shit on.
OWNED. I have waited so long for that shit to come back to her and it is delicious.
It’s certainly harsh to call her out by having her teach the class on a whim, but it’s more elegant than yelling at someone in front of others, like Roz did. Plus, she’ll learn something she really needs to understand.
Yeah, it’s ethically dubious in real life, but this is meant to be absurd, and also happens to be deeply satisfying.
the most elegant: mariah carey in sunglasses and a fur stole, “i don’t know her”, “i can’t read suddenly”, “i don’t know”
what would even be the most mariah carey response to this situation. probably the exact same thing leslie just pulled
Was the alt-text meant to be canon?
I really worry for Dorothy right now. I’m concerned that she’s going to burn herself out because she can’t accept being anything less than perfect. In some ways, it’s the same problem that Walky has with the difference that she has even less emotional flexibility to handle the possibility of failure because the expectation of perfection is her own and self-reinforced, not due to pressure from her family.
Yeah… I think that Leslie was planning on spending the lesson chastising Roz in an indirect and passive-aggressive manner. It’s pretty clear who Leslie blames for this whole mess!
i wonder how many of the “sick burn” comments are performative acts themselves: now’s a chance to show that I get it and know this fancy word!
Of course, i’m doing it too. Because it’s fun 🙂
That’s actually, and perhaps unironically, an interesting question. I don’t think it’s the case with Roz, but I have definitely seen people be ritually disavowed who, deserving or not, the ritual clearly starts to become more a matter of performance – not out of ‘virtue signalling’, but so the speaker can reassure (to themselves) that they have nothing to worry about, they’re not like X.
Okay yea Roz really deserved this lesson. I am going to school right now and there are people I wish would have to learn this. Would even be more fun to watch them through it.
Roz often does seem like she fakes caring about what she is fighting for (Likely to stand out from Robin) because of how often she shouts over and ignores the voice and uses the people she is “Fighting” for. Her work does seem performative and not from a place of genuinely wanting to help people.
College campuses have had an excess of people like Roz since at least when I went to college in the early 90s.
I think Roz wants to help, she just also wants to be known for helping.
Which, ironically enough, means there’s a lesson in the Bible for her: Jesus’s talk about how, if you do the right thing only to look good, then that’s the only reward you’ll get.
Granted, it’s a lesson a lot of Christians also miss.
I know what “performative allyship” is, but is “de-amplifying” a real term? Because it sounds like a complicated way to say something that could be said much simpler.
This is college – The use of $50 semi-made-up compound words and phrases is sort of SOP!
It could definitely be said with simpler words, but I’m not actually convinced it could be said with fewer words. Plus, when she was writing the lesson plan, she only needed to make it simple enough for her audience i.e. the only person who (she thought) would actually be reading it instead of hearing it as a lesson plan i.e. her. “The de-amplifying of” is, if nothing else, faster and shorter than “The reduction and silencing of the voices of”
Welcome to the world of postmodernist academia and the “joy” of obscurantism, in particular the social sciences. Never say “silencing” or “drowning out” or “shouting down”, when you can use terms of art like “de-amplifying”.
Look into the Sokal affair when you get a chance.
Okay, to be fair, I would avoid the terms “silencing” “drowning out” and “shouting down” as well, speaking as someone who is very easily embarrassed and sensitive to that particular need of many audience members. I try to avoid buzzwords in general for that reason, when SJ people talk too much like each other it’s too easy to make fun of, and that’s a right-wing tactic that’s widely practiced and it works.
Plus, I think “de-amplifying” is genuinely more accurate and descriptive. They make sense to you because you’re a part of a subculture that uses them, but if you look at their literal meanings as someone who’s not enmeshed in that culture, they require much more explaination.
It’s also worth noting how most of those other terms all sound clearly accusatory, while “de-amplify” sounds clinically descriptive, making it less likely to cause people who are guilty of it to immediately tune out
A lot of people seem to view being called out for something like that as equivalent to being burnt at the stake, like people want to immediately cast them out forever because of it, when in fact people just want them to stop doing that, and then everyone can move on.
It sucks being called out on your mistakes, especially when you wrap so much of your identity in being a good ally.
I was actually thinking about people being over sensitive about this kind of criticism and get really defensive when called out, but Leslie trying not to be too hard on Roz in particular would also make sense
De-amplifying isn’t obscurantism. It has a very obvious meaning. You take the word “amplifying,” which we know means “making stronger” and add “de-” in front of it to mean you’re undoing that.
So, to de-amplify queer voices clearly means you are trying to reduce the amplification of queer voices. You’re not making their voices louder.
I mean, I’d never actually heard the term before, but it was immediately clear what it meant.
If anyone did have trouble understanding it (Joe for one), I’m sure Leslie planned on explaining it. That’s what a lesson topic is. We have the words, now let’s explain what it actually means.
Ehh. It’s a rarely-used term, but easy enough to figure out. Amplify–to make louder. Prefix de–opposite. De-amplify–to make less loud. It gets the point across rather elegantly, I think.
This is somewhat a response to a few of the discussions about allies, about their role, their importance or relative non-importance, whether they belong in the acronym, and so forth, but I’m not putting it as a response to any of those posts because it’s aside the actual points of those discussions, and thus best placed that way: aside.
In a perfect world, Allies would also cover everyone. Every lesbian would be the ally of gay men and vice versa, every homosexual person would be the ally of bisexuals and asexuals, every cisgendered LGBA would be the ally of our transgendered and nonbinary brothers and sisters and other siblings… In that sense, I believe it’s important to remember being an ally in addition to any other label on the letter-rainbow spectrum. That’s my thought on the matter, anyway.
Gee Dorothy, if only you had a huge time commitment in your life that is doing nothing for you that could be dropped easily. One that can’t commit to anything productive or useful and literally spent the last few strips trying to walk out on something he should be attending. IF. ONLY. THAT. EXISTED.
I am SO glad I’m not the only one thinking this…
This attitude has always kind of bothered me, to be honest, because think for a second how it would sound if their genders were reversed.
I would say the same thing. If a person is dragging the other half of the relationship down, drop them.
I am sorta hoping they do break up. I feel like at this point they’re hamstringing each other’s development. They’re too safe.
Granted my other reasoning is a tad more selfish than most.
Yeah, definitely her best move here is to get rid of a major source of relaxation, stress relief and joy because it takes up some of her time.
Wait, YOU don’t work better and more efficiently when you’re stressed out of your mind? That can’t be right. I mean, thousands of abusive, exploitative employers the world over can’t be wrong.
The detriments that Walky brings far outweigh the benefits he brings. Hell, half of what he brings to the relationship could be replaced with a vibrator.
“I have so much to do today, I’ll need to spend another hour on my knees” –Martin Luther.
He was talking about prayer, but I think the same principle applies.
So, when did Walky kick your dog? I don’t remember that strip
I mean, they just don’t like Walky/Dorothy. It’s fine not to like a ship.
That IS okay, but their description of Walky is particularly harsh. N
There’s no mention at all of the dynamic between them, just “Walky sucks”
Probably when he was wearing Danny’s shoes, which is why Danny gets so much flak.
“Okay… so we’re doin’ this…”