Jesus shots!
Don’t mind me, I’m just trying to make up rules for a communion drinking game. Maybe we read the Old Testament, and everyone takes a drink every time someone says “begot”? (For the record, I”m a strict KJV man.)
Yeah Joyce, drink it alone, in empty room, make party for yourself. Nobody gonna bother you. Only you and soon to be empty jug of Juice, just like you.
I could be wrong, but somehow I don’t think it’s just the grape juice she misses. That just drinking the grape juice alone in a room by herself won’t bring that same experience. Or even just the good parts of it. Even just the serotonin response.
Just bc it’s not the same experience just buying a wedding cake alone instead of having a whole shindig doesn’t mean you can’t still get the wedding cake and eat it yourself
In regards to desired experiences like Churches and Weddings, I have a kind of theory. Really, it’s a question. Kind of.
HOW to these experiences satisfy the brain? Do you necessarily need the WHOLE experience? What parts of it are the ones that really satisfy? Is it possible to get those components elsewhere separately, or is it a gestalt kind of effect? Can some ingredients of that gestalt be substituted?
On the one hand, Joyce really needs a way to relax and not go to church. On the other hand, church might have been what was keeping her sane(or at least more sane.)
Eh, she clearly feared the divine retribution that would absolutely come for her for Being Christian Wrong and I’m certain church exacerbates that. Certainly the denominations that would give her the comfortable and familiar trappings of guitars and grape juice, because they also tend to have the Eternal Damnation.
That particular anxiety will eventually pass. Trauma-informed therapy would probably help it do so, but is apparently not available. Barring that, I recommend a weighted stuffed animal or something. Watch some videos of kids making slime, or cartoons. Go to a yarn store and touch the yarn.
Go to a yarn store, touch the yarn, and see if there are beginner’s knit or crochet classes. In my experience, the dedicated yarn stores will have classes and sometimes zoom groups or actual sit’n’knit sessions too. They’re not half-bad social hubs.
I am so glad someone explained to me the profanity filter on that word, otherwise I’d be very confused.
My local-est yarn store’s still a good drive and an annoying parking area away. Events were cancelled starting two years ago and haven’t started up again….
I think it’s less the church itself and more the structure going to do something every Sunday provided. Like how I always look forward to watching anime on Toonami Saturday nights.
My family has rituals – every Friday we get cheap takeout pizza and everyone looks forward to it all week. Every end of month we do a little fire and burn some paper and make s’mores and toast to the new month, and we celebrate the goddesses of Hyrule every quarter of the year. We left Christianity when my firstborn was a baby but he used to make us pray before meals because he likes rituals so we’ve made a bunch of our own.
That sounds wholesome and delightful. May your pizza and s’mores rituals be passed down, from generation to generation, with happy food family feelings.
Funny thing about cults: a big part of how they operate is by cultivating unstable attachment in their members. Unstable attachment is a dynamic where the source of a person’s distress is also their primary/only source of comfort from it. They instill the fear of Hell and Judgement Day in you, then tell you that as long as you stay faithful and do as your told, you’ll be alright, and then everyone sings a song and drinks some juice and you believe them because in that moment you feel comfortable and safe. It’s part of why it can be so hard to leave a cult, even when you recognize that it’s hurting you; if you leave, you lose the comfort that it provided, but the fear and shame and hurt linger.
Okay, so first of all, I should mention that I got my terminology a bit wrong. The term for this is “disorganized attachment”. I’m not sure where I got “unstable”. Second of all, no, it isn’t unique to cults; it’s also a marker of toxic/abusive relationships.
Even without the unstable attachment part, the positive social aspects of church services are designed to bring much of that experience. Just the getting together in groups and participating in songs and rituals builds attachment and bonding and for many people can get that serotonin response to kick in.
Driving the fear and distress like many cults do (or to a lesser extent throughout religion) makes it more intense, but that baseline can still provide the comfort.
God that would be hell though. Take your favorite two things and then pour them over each other.
“Ah, I see you like Fettuccini Alfredo and Chocolate.”
Is that the same thing as cinnamon twists or is there a different taco bell item I’m missing because I need ALL the deep fried pasta they have to offer me
Taco Bell Cinnamon Twists are an abomination and must be purged. Every single time I order their standard Inexpensive Food Box, it comes with those nastly little things and I have to substitute them out for some chips n’ cheese. They come out of the oven stale, I swear.
I first learned about hummus from a Sally Forth strip, kept that food description in memory for years, and eventually was reminded of it by Regular Show and decided to try some. Now it’s a fairly common snack food in my home, paired up with some pita chips and usually some OJ to drink. The acid reflux is well worth it.
When I was a kid/teen, every single time I missed a service for whatever reason there would be a voice nagging at me in the back of my head telling me God was gonna hold it against me on judgement day.
I didn’t even go to a church that taught that anybody went to Hell. Just Hell being mentioned in the Bible was enough for the paranoia to set in.
When I teach Hebrew School, all the pure-hearted little children have heard of Hell, and I get to cheerfully assure them that Hell is not a Jewish thing, nobody can ever send them to Hell, it’s not a real place. There is a lot of relief about that sometimes.
I mean, they get our own special religious trauma (about the many many people who keep trying to kill us), but at least it’s the actual world, and not something specifically made up to terrify them into compliance, so that’s something.
From one of the other sides: My Roman Catholic Sunday School Teacher spent a good 15 minutes countering a fellow student’s drunken aunt’s rant about “The Jews are all gonna Burn in Hell for putting Jesus on the Cross”, It was essentially:
1: Jesus being Crucified was part of The Plan To Establish The New Covenant. Why would He punish one of his Chosen Peoples for doing exactly what He wanted?
2: His Mercy is without boundary. Even if He was angry, Forgiveness is what He sent His Son to Earth to give.
3: The Jewish People are our Brothers in Faith, even if they practice their faith in a different way to our own, and therefore it is unchristian for us to condemn them for their part in Our Savior’s journey.
4: Hell IS a real place, but The Gates of Hell are barred until Revelations comes to pass. No Soul has passed through that portal of dread in nearly 2000 years.
5:Callie, I think you need to tell your parents what your aunt has been saying when she smells like daddy’s breath after communion while babysitting you.
Oh boy
Ad 1 if so why Judas are not saint, besides Romans put Jesus on cross 😉
Ad 2 forgivness is if they say sorry and embrace Jesus love, but true, God dont use ancesors sins rule anymore
Ad 3 its very hard to belive that. God make all that work with Jesus and then went oh ok you are ok not beliving in My Son, but by “every path is good” rule fair enough
Comment just for biblical study funsies i dont want Jews or anybody in hell
There are many roman catholic churches which are saying jews are going to burn in hell or go to limbo for not being catholics (not following his disciples), but I don’t know many that say Judas and all jews are the same…
Well I can’t argue bc I haven’t even read the bible. I heard it’s about some guy who invented aircraft sandals and then got fixed on rooks yelling bc nobodies buy a house at the country to get awaken by some punk volatile instead of traffic. Just saying what I hear catholic people say here (among them some fundies, opus dei style).
You can’t blame the Jews for killing Jesus, because we didn’t do it, historically.
Crucifixion has never been a Jewish practice, it would be against our own religious laws. Crucifixion was a Roman practice — those mighty imperialists who were actively in charge of us and killing us around this time.
So, Jews didn’t crucify people. Even if we did crucify anyone (which we didn’t), we literally were not in charge of who got death penalties when Jesus died.
The reason the gospels call us out is that Jesus and the Gospel writers considered themselves Jewish — when they say “the Jews did this!” they are saying “WE did this, we ourselves are the bad-guys in our story, we should repent!” The writers did not mean “Those people over there, with their wacky menorahs, they did this. Let’s get ’em!”
…Mainly, Jews would really rather not be drafted into Christian stories anymore. Writing your own new stories is fine, but y’know, you always give us the worst roles, so please leave us out of them.
Theoretically, the claim is not that the Jews did it themselves, but that they turned him over to the Romans to do. Specifically that certain influential Jews conspired with some Romans to get him arrested and then incited a crowd to demand he be crucified when the Roman governor wanted to let him go.
I’m not so sure on that motivation though, conflict between the proto-Christian Jesus movement and more traditional Jews grew quickly and not too much later on as the movement spread to gentiles it was political not to cast too much blame on Rome.
I know, but the argument that we manipulated Rome to do it still doesn’t make any sense.
Let’s say the proto-rabbis think Jesus is a heretic, and a threat to the Jewish community, ie, he’s gonna piss off God and God’ll totally smite us. (More specifically, God will allow the Romans to smite us.)
In the rabbis’ worldview, it makes no sense to get the Romans to brutally torture/kill the heretic. (Nor did they do that to any of the *other* doomsday heretics claiming to be the messiah during this time period!)
A) You’re maximizing your sin by causing another to sin for you.
B) If you really super want a heretic to stop preaching, you have way better options that are more your style. You can ostracise him and his teachings (like they eventually did with Elisha ben Abuya! Pretty successfully!). You might spread stories that he did something really sinful, like maybe he slept with a student (like the stories of Beruriah, who was way sassier than Jesus). Any rabbi worth his kosher salt *definitely* writes down a play-by-play of their debates with the heretic, exhaustively, with an ending that btw Elijah the Prophet showed up and totally said the rabbis were right. …This is the kind of thing the rabbis did near this time period.
Colluding with our oppressors to get the guy publically tortured and killed (guaranteeing that the community pays attention to him) doesn’t make the list. Even if the proto-Rabbis had that power, which they didn’t, it’s still the opposite of what they want.
Whereas, early Christians are smart, too! They realize they shouldn’t publicise a story about how their rulers are the bad guys. Don’t stand in Roman-ruled Judea and talk about how the Romans are the worst, or you will get very dead. This theory makes so much more sense.
So yeah, Joyce did not, in fact, ever ‘feel God’ and was aware of that fact on some level this whole time, and her emphasis on Biblical literalism was an attempt to cover up for not feeling the spiritual connection because she was terrified to admit that and terrified of the divine judgment from Doing Christianity Wrong!
And as we’ve seen, perhaps at least a little envious of Becky in that her faith appears to be genuine in spite of everything that by all rights could have shattered it.
But isn’t that how their church wanted it? The anxiety of doing it wrong, while everyone else must be real believers keeps you more obedient and makes them money. In other words, they wanted everyone to feel guilty. It’s a tactic in the catholic church (“catholic guilt” is a thing), where hell & confessing sins is also a thing, and I’m guessing it’s the same for American fundamental protestants.
Becky is the exception because she never Could be fully obedient to the church without going against her own nature (being a lesbian) and lost a parent to suicide (who should therefore be in hell). Instead of taking it out on herself, she broke with the church but not with the belief. I don’t expect her to become an atheist too, she’s supposed to give representation, but frankly it was never safe for her to become an atheist until later. When Joyce went through the same process of being made aware of a fundamental contradiction between her moral code and the church (Dorothy being a good person, Becky being gay) she was far away enough and safe enough to reject it all.
Joyce liked being in a community and belonging, yeah – I feel like she might be particularly missing that because she has no real community without it. She has friends, sure, but none of them like each other much or hang out together, and the closest she’s gotten to a community gathering lately is either ‘birthday party for Becky’s dead mom which was later thrown in et face as an example of how shitty she is’ or ‘mac and cheese with Becky and Dorothy while Becky acts passive-aggressively shitty’.
The Satanic Temple! It would be perfect for her, they’ve got activities like after school teaching outreach programs for kids and protesting government establishments of religion, they’ve got a few random rituals, and they’re really atheists.
He’s a (presumably) white male kid from a fundamentalist Christian community at a Christian college (it was stated by Toedad that Joyce was the only one from their church they allowed to go to a secular college)
I mean…Becky was a White Female kid from a fundamentalist Christian Community at a Christian college. Kinda rude to just throw people’s baseline description out like that would adequately determine what kinda person they are.
Of course, we now know per Ross that ‘best-socialized’ actually seems to have meant more like ‘most obedient’ and ‘least likely to break programming when exposed to the secular world.’
It’s one of those things that I’m pretty certain Joyce hasn’t told Becky, because how do you broach the subject of ‘btw before Amber’s dad killed your dad and we used the fight as an opportunity to flee, he told me the adults were all so proud of my obedience specifically and I’m not sure what to do with that fact’? Like, in the moment, Becky’s dad had just died and also Joyce was coming off getting kidnapped twice in one morning and having to jump out of a moving van, and then after time had passed suddenly it’s a Thing even assuming Joyce totally remembered and processed it that day due to the sheer cascade of trauma.
Like, it’s fucked up, I suspect it’s a major part of Joyce’s trauma, and it’s so damn hard to explain compared to the more straightforward ‘my dad tried to kidnap me twice and then he was murdered by his accomplice the second time.’
I think she’s mentioned him specifically as a reason why two church services in the same day. Because sometimes he wouldn’t be at the early one and it’s TRISTAN.
Oooof, one of the comments on that strip in particular aged like fine milk:
“of course! don’t you remember the Tristan arc? When Dina was kidnapped by Blaine and Toe Dad. Causing the main characters to team up with Tristan to rescue her! I can’t believe you’ve forgotten about that part!”
This was four years before the comic actually had Blaine and Ross team up to kidnap multiple characters, including Dina. And the following replies even talk about “time travel” and Willis using it to remove Tristan from that arc…but not removing the arc itself.
standing in the church? like, standing and sitting several times? in Catholic church you have to stand and sit several times? What about a chechen style Zikr?? https://youtu.be/AxSWVkPfVc8 🙂
Vinnie: Just because your father doesn’t kneel, you must remember he wasn’t brought up to kneel in church, but you were. Has it anything to do with Mary? I know that she is a Methodist.
Clarence Day: Oh, no, mother. Methodists kneel, Mary told me. They don’t get up and down so much, but they stay down longer.
I didn’t like synagogue either. Eventually my folks made a deal with me: I’d only go on alternating weeks, but when it was my time to go, I’d go without a fuss.
The few times my family went to church when I was a kid I found it extremely boring. I was glad when we stopped going the year before I started high school.
I kind of have a theory that due to Fundementalist Christianity’s “all or nothing” approach, for those who break free of it tend to have a very deep alienation from and disenchantment (at least) for religion in general.
I was allowed to read books in the seats, as long as they were Jewish books. This ranged from kids’ adaptations, to actual Torah translations, to poetry, to the Book Of Virtues (not actually Jewish), to The Cardinal’s Snuffbox (choose your own adventure), to Maus. It was a good ruling.
That was basically my experience as well. I could never make myself pay attention, and I felt tremendously guilty over it. I constantly worried that God would punish me for doodling Sonic the Hedgehog running through Green Hill Zone whenever I wasn’t in reading-random-pages mode.
(remember when we weren’t sick to death of green hill? good times)
I’ve only ever been to mass at weddings and funerals, so every time I mostly just kept an eye on what everybody else was doing so I wouldn’t look too out of place.
To be fair, the juice was my favorite part of church, too. I don’t know where they got it but it was the most delicious juice I have ever tasted and they only gave it out in like 2 oz glasses during Communion which was only a couple of times a year. Of course, as a kid I had know idea when those sermons where so every time we went to church I would be anxiously trying to figure out if this was one of the times we got to do Communion.
I wonder how much of panel 4 is Joyce projecting her current anxiety and uncertainty onto her memories, and how much of it is her realizing that baggage was there all along and she’s only now able to unpack it.
From what Willis has talked about in the past, and considering both that Dumbiverse!Joyce is especially based off of Willis’s own experiences, and that this is not the first time she’s expressed similar sentiments in-comic; I’d say the latter. It was there all along.
I know I made fun of her yesterday, but it’s more obvious now she has a lot to unpack from a life saturated with Christian expectations. What do you do when you get stuck in a social routine that snaps when those social bonds break? What routine in life is there to follow when literally nothing else seems…valid?
Ah, the ol’ “everyone else is having a strong connection except me” thing, when in reality everyone else is experiencing what you’re feeling. Glad I never felt that one (about my faith). Was speaking in tongues or having spasms after being shoved to the floor involved at Joyce’s church?
Uhmm… funny thing is… when i left the LDS church… my excuse for myself was that i didn’t have time for the services… you see, in Architectural school you had to do this scale models of building projects every week and by hand and it took a looooooot of time… like i only went for sleep 4 times a week for some time, really hard. Sundays were work days for the monday workshop presentation, etc. I was full of doubts already, but would not have left the church all by myself without the scapegoat of working on my school projects…. and after a few years I finally gathered the courage to go to the bishop and quit the church for good. I was a convert for 7 years, and an inactive member for another 4 years… And, yeah, i never blamed the church for anything then, i blamed myself for not being good material for exaltation, and so and so… It took me some more years to fully rebooting and becoming agnosthic again (as i was as a child, before being LSD member)… But i really dig Joyce and those feelings of belonging to a community outside your family (your disfunctional family…), the Church was my space away from home were i felt useful and goal oriented for all my teenage years, the sense of security and destiny was strong… but not strong enough to keep me inside…
huh! thanks for sharing.
so if your schedule was more of an excuse what would you say made you quit? do you think it was hanging around more secular people in architecture school?
uhmm… my country is nominally catholic, so was my family. But i did elementary and high school in a presbiterian school. I was very esceptic of the Bible and of any religious group, let alone LDS beliefs, up until the missionaries made us go down and pray together. The feelings!! the warm feelings got me into. And just like Joyce, at some point, the feelings were gone, no more voice of god, just myself inside my head. I was just following the motions. So the architecture school, were the church is not your whole life, was the first step out. But i cant deny that my girfriend, wich had a history of church activity and then shunning (because she liked Madonna a lot… and dressed like her), had a strong influence on quitting in an official manner. No more inactive member, please erase my name from the list, dear Bishop. 🙂
One way to relax is by practicing a discipline that clears the mind and releases the happy chemicals in your brain without requiring subscription to a dogma. Exercise, yoga, meditation/mindfulness practice, chanting (even just movie quotes you find meaningful), practicing a skill like drawing or sculpture, walking outside, folding laundry, cooking, building stuff, crafts, singing or playing music… just something simple and repetitive that absorbs your full concentration and takes your mind off your cares. There are so many ways to find inner peace without belief in a God or dogma. Even doing math problems can do it.
something about how specific this example is makes me think you’re a practitioner of movie-quotes chanting yourself? =) …want to share some of your favourites?
“I am one with the force and the force is with me.” I chanted this in a whisper as I held my grandmother’s hand while she died.
Recently, a friend called me from his deathbed. I didn’t chant with him but I sang that line over and over when he passed.
I also like, “Just do it.” from the Nike commercial.
Or the Mr. Rogers song, “You’ve got to do it, do it, do it, and when you’re through, you can know who did it, ’cause you did it, you did it, you did it!”
The Mr. Rogers song, “What do you do with the mad that you feel?” brings me a lot of solace.
But my real jam is the sea chanties, like “The Wellerman”. A good repetitive work song will chase those naughty blues away!
wow, well thanks for sharing <3
i love that you finds words of comfort anywhere. you sound like you're always willing to make words your own if you find that they resonate. i've never had the responsibility of accompanying someone while they passed, so i have no idea what words i might turn to in the moment. but i'm sure we all have our private mental scrapbooks of meaningful words. i can think of some songs that would feel appropriate maybe, but i suppose i'll see how i feel if and when the occasion arises.
Oops! Looks like I used too many URLs and wound up “Awaiting moderation” again. Here, I’ll repost without the websites:
Thanks so much for your kind and sweet words, milu. It’s so nice to hear from a friendly voice.
A very dear old friend (who I had a little spark with back when we were younger) is now dying of cancer. He’s antireligious but also says, “I have a personal relationship with the deity I don’t believe in.” So I’m working on putting together a little playlist of passing songs.
Here are a few:
Rich Mullins, “Elijah”
Leave her Johnny (The Longest Johns Community Choir)
Have you seen the Ghost of John? (chorus round)
Johnny Cash, “Ain’t no Grave can Hold my Body Down”
“Poor Wayfaring Stranger” / (“I’ve gone across the Rio Grande”)
Johnny Cash, “Hurt”
Billie Holiday, “Gloomy Sunday”
Louis Armstrong, “Saint James Infirmary”
“Nothing Compares 2 U” (Prince, Chris Cornell, Sinead OConnor…)
Trout Fishing In America, “Close Your Eyes”
Those are just the ones that come to mind right now.
What do you say, folks, any suggestions? Mix tapes are such an 80s thing, but it’s good to be old school when celebrating a friend’s life.
In a couple more weeks you’ll start following the money and decide it’s about nothing more than collecting 10% from everyone, and then you’ll be REALLY messed up.
(Disclaimer: Of course it’s about more than that — a lot of the people collecting 10% are genuine believers who think they’re really doing good with their preaching — but making connections like that and bitterly going all-in on them beyond what’s justified is the sort of thing that the disillusionment process prompts.)
Being a comic character is a mixed bag: people know you’re freaking out before even reading the content of your words when they see a wall of text. Whether that’s a benefit or not probably depends on who you’re talking to.
God, Joyce, have you tried not being raised in a fundie cult? Jeez, get over yourself, with your difficulties that stem from no longer existing in what you were taught to believe was the default and only acceptable state of being. It’s not like long-term exposure to any given environment from birth would have had some sort of effect on your brain or personality and the sudden jarring removal from that environment might be causing some dissonance in your life, holy fuck.
Why can’t you be like all the normal people and just numb yourself from the day you exit the womb, casually ignoring and dismissing any and all stimuli so that you effectively grow up in a purgatorial vacuum, devoid of any discernable personality outside of talking down to others for “allowing” things to affect them in even the slightest of ways? Kids these fuckin’ days, I swear.
Okay, I’m a huge fan of sarcastically paraphrasing opinions I disagree with, as readers of these comments know, but … nobody’s saying that? Like, at all?
Constantly misrepresenting Joyce’s anger and trauma as her just being a new edgy reddit atheist who’s being mean to woobie Christians was the main event for the entire course of the Faith-Off.
I don’t need other people to be saying it, because I’m not arguing with anybody or throwing shade at them. I’m making my own comment, independent of any existing arguments, because I don’t read those arguments anymore for the sake of my own mental health. If anyone happens to feel particularly called out by my unaffiliated remark in this case, that’s not especially my problem.
I literally thought you were tearing apart a mod-deleted comment.
It kinda sounds like you have a voice inside of you saying that Joyce sucks, and/or that you suck in some similar way. If so, that sounds… not fun. Does it help to argue with it?
Oh, was there a comment deleted? Lol no, I was just goin’ off for shits and giggles, not in any specific direction. For the record, though, I do all my inner-voice arguing out loud. Social Distancing and isolation do things to a person.
See, this is why living on the West Coast is best. You sleep in to 10am, and then in the Fall and Winter months Football’s on! And other sports other times of the year too!
I managed to skip literally all of the church thing due to the fact that the original Transformers aired here on Sunday mornings when I was a kid, and lol at the prospect of religion competing with giant shape-changing robots.
Damn. i wish she would sit down and TALK about it with someone she trusts. Perhaps Sarah if she wants to be patient that is. does the college have a support group for people who left their faith behind or something like that?
I mean, she talks a lot of shit about him, but she is already talking to someone she trusts right here. Naturally, he’s not like her first pick, but he’s definitely in the inner circle, so to speak.
That said, yeah, she ought to open up about some of this stuff with others. I get the impression some of Walky’s mockery of Christianity might be coming with personal experience, given his past acting gig and that I thiiink Sal’s Christian. Still, I don’t get the impression the Walkertons were ever big churchgoers, so his perspective on this is going to probably be pretty limited.
Yeah, I see both of them as raised nominally Christian, but without a lot of emphasis on it. Like many Americans.
I’m not sure if either of them have really stated their current religion. I get the feeling Walky’s atheist, but I don’t remember an explicit statement. Pretty sure Sal hasn’t made one.
I think there was at least one strip fairly early on where he mentioned the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I think Joyce asked him about church or something to prompt it.
Sal hasn’t mentioned it, no, though I suspect at bare minimum she’s not that fond of Catholicism after her time at school.
Oh, I’m sure. I could just swear she’s said something before that sort of hinted at a spiritual side, whereas Walky might be atheist, or might just find making fun of “fundies” hilarious. Which, granted, it is, but still.
Given that Joyce is supposed to be somewhat autobiographal for Willis (I’m unsure of the extent to which artistic license was taken or some events are either downplayed/exaggerated for comic narrative purposes.) It may be worth asking him but from my experience most colleges to equipped to handle what is essentially some naturally de-programming themselves from a cult system and all that entails. Hell, they’re barely able to handle people who struggle with more normal trauma.
I always love a good Joyce and Walky conversation. It’s kind of funny how their dynamic has evolved over time. There’s this silly antagonism, but we do also see that they are still friends underneath that. Also, occasional notes of attraction from both parties that they are quick to want to disregard.
wait… no one made a masturbation joke yet? …for real?
OK then,
Joyce! ask Sarah how she “relaxes” on Sunday mornings! Of course if you’ve never tried you might need to go back to her several times and ask for advice. A process known as “Trial and Sarah”.
I wonder if Joyce could not turned from christianity if her comunity weren’t a bigotry one, or at least, people in her church were real and sincere people.
No, not like that. I was thinking about today strip and a moment in my life, when I got involved with Buddhist people from a community in my city. I’m getting along with their. So I’m getting myself thinking about groups,
if I stay in a group for their values or how they treat me…
If it’s something you treasure and makes you a better person, yes? Buddhist, Jewish, Jedi, or otherwise. Some people find something deeply special and good in their faiths.
I mean, if Joyce’s church and upbringing were completely different then she might not have turned away from it, but then she’d be a completely different character on a completely different journey and this would be a completely different comic.
so…I’m getting “on paper I had a supportive community, but actually I was just forced to get up early and crammed into a building with people I don’t really like to do some tedious rituals until I got a treat that justified the whole thing for me.” Sounds like an accurate summation of the basic church going experience for a teen
Everything about Joyce’s church seems to suggest they said a lot about God, good, love, and happiness but reinforced constantly hate, exclusion, and control.
I thought of the best way to make Joyce relax. She needs to invest in some “self hanky-panky” and buy herself a toy or two. Of course she has to be willing to goto an “adult” store and not chicken out.
Or if you’d rather go for a specialty online store, Adam & Eve has treated me ‘n Ms. Taffy pretty good. Mails right to the house, discreet packaging, the works. Got this little purple vibe that really does the job, with all these little special rhythms and strength settings.
i’m sorry if i offended, that was very spontaneous and not very tactful probably, i just legitimately had a belly laugh and i wanted to express my gratitude for that <3
i mean i think they might have, but it’s just the way they said it. If you mentioned a Ms or Mr Wellerman, without further context i’d assume you were talking about your partner. But listen, maybe i’m wrong and you’ll have the last laugh =)
Oh, the toy’s name is probably on the packaging but I threw that away. To answer more directly, I most certainly do have a partner. 8.5 years into the relationship, I’m feelin’ fairly confident sayin’ so. She purty.
What about at a pharmacy? When I’ve seen them at Target and Kroger and such here, they’re in the pharmacy area. And then, of course, CVS, Rite Aid, etc. They’re often pretty basic ones but they exist. Also, because of this discussion, I was checking vibrator availability at CVS, and apparently if you want to buy a bullet vibrator, you’re limited to six at a time. The more you know!
lol! yeah that sounds super random.
no not even in pharmacies, i mean maybe there’s a pharmacy out there stocking vibrators but it’s definitely not common. which is a shame, i mean it’s obviously relevant to sexual health.
All she needs is a driver. Someone who’s chill enough to help a gal go buy a vibe. And possibly manic/embarrassing enough to distract from the awkwardness of actually purchasing one.
Robin should drive Joyce to Indianapolis to buy toys.
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Good news! You can get a whole-ass jug of grape juice ALL FOR YOURSELF.
I feel like I now need to see this Tristan if only to assure myself he isn’t the Yu-Gi-Oh! model
He sounds about as useful as Yu-Gi-Oh’s Tristan.
Tristan was absolutely key to the success of the team in Season 1. He may not be a duelist, but he’s still an important character.
Yeah! Tristan punched all the right people in duelist Kingdom.
[Tristan singing “Lean on Me”]
I wouldn’t drink any juice with a Tristan, especially if you got lectured on Mark.
i don’t want a jug, i want a tray full of tiny little plastic cups of grape juice, and i want to drink them all in sequence all by myself
So doing shots. Love it! 😆
Jesus shots!
Don’t mind me, I’m just trying to make up rules for a communion drinking game. Maybe we read the Old Testament, and everyone takes a drink every time someone says “begot”? (For the record, I”m a strict KJV man.)
Your comic brings so many people joy, but your avatar always looks so sad. Why is that?
Sad? I dunno, kinda looks blankish to me, but yet I suck at reading faces so yeah.
Actually kinda reminds me of Rufus from Deponia
What that link didn’t work lemme try again
His grav used to have a cheerful grin and a thumbs-up, but that was in the Before Times.
pff so true
It’s true! The hat’s also even newer, as is the longer hair and less-shaven look. 😛
i think he’s glaring, more angry than sad. but idk
After the little plastic cups then you can get your fill of the tiny cubes of Wonder Bread …
Nope gotta be crackers, didn’t you read yesterday’s comic.
singleplayer communion
Shots! Shots! Shots!
… Actually though plastic shot glasses hold an ounce I think. Communion cups are what, a teaspoon?
It wouldn’t be as psychologically satisfying in a shot glass.
… *Goes to see how much communion cups cost*
Aren’t they just the little 3oz mouthwash cups?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Everyday-Disposable-Plastic-Cups-White-3-oz-100-count/12167406
Why settle for a cheap nock-off when you can have the real thing. https://celebrationcup.com/collections/prefilled-holy-communion
Are you fucking with me, you can get communion in coffee creamer packs?
Somebody should be selling a look-alike with jello/ vodka shots in them.
Nobody’s stopping you.
(By the way is DoA following 2021’s calendar now? A couple of us were debating it the other day and we couldn’t reach a consensus.)
Ah, so like the cups they’d use for Kiddush in the congregational reception after morning Shabbat services at my synagogue
We’d have goodies from a kosher bakery afterwards though, so that was the part I’d look forward to more so than the swig of Kedem the preceded it
Magical blood power hour!
It just isn’t the same without the Jesus in it…
Then you do it with our true Lord and Savior, Lightning McQueen!!
Yeah Joyce, drink it alone, in empty room, make party for yourself. Nobody gonna bother you. Only you and soon to be empty jug of Juice, just like you.
I could be wrong, but somehow I don’t think it’s just the grape juice she misses. That just drinking the grape juice alone in a room by herself won’t bring that same experience. Or even just the good parts of it. Even just the serotonin response.
Just bc it’s not the same experience just buying a wedding cake alone instead of having a whole shindig doesn’t mean you can’t still get the wedding cake and eat it yourself
In regards to desired experiences like Churches and Weddings, I have a kind of theory. Really, it’s a question. Kind of.
HOW to these experiences satisfy the brain? Do you necessarily need the WHOLE experience? What parts of it are the ones that really satisfy? Is it possible to get those components elsewhere separately, or is it a gestalt kind of effect? Can some ingredients of that gestalt be substituted?
Joyce keep on looking back, oh no.
Any more and she’d be one that’ll be turned into salt.
Then again, it’s the dogma that’s problematic, not sorely the people.
Joyce is pretty salty these days anyway.
Hopefully it’s part of the healing process.
The salt makes her thirsty for juice.
On the one hand, Joyce really needs a way to relax and not go to church. On the other hand, church might have been what was keeping her sane(or at least more sane.)
Eh, she clearly feared the divine retribution that would absolutely come for her for Being Christian Wrong and I’m certain church exacerbates that. Certainly the denominations that would give her the comfortable and familiar trappings of guitars and grape juice, because they also tend to have the Eternal Damnation.
That particular anxiety will eventually pass. Trauma-informed therapy would probably help it do so, but is apparently not available. Barring that, I recommend a weighted stuffed animal or something. Watch some videos of kids making slime, or cartoons. Go to a yarn store and touch the yarn.
Go to a yarn store, touch the yarn, and see if there are beginner’s knit or crochet classes. In my experience, the dedicated yarn stores will have classes and sometimes zoom groups or actual sit’n’knit sessions too. They’re not half-bad social hubs.
I miss my local yarn store’s stitch and bongo gatherings.
I am so glad someone explained to me the profanity filter on that word, otherwise I’d be very confused.
My local-est yarn store’s still a good drive and an annoying parking area away. Events were cancelled starting two years ago and haven’t started up again….
I think it’s less the church itself and more the structure going to do something every Sunday provided. Like how I always look forward to watching anime on Toonami Saturday nights.
Fuck yeah bruh! Now that’s what I call a ritual worth keeping!!! 😆
Admittedly Toonami’s been critical in maintaining my sanity these days. :3
Yep yep. Me and my buddies do a toonami podcast that is bad and also currently the site we upload them to is down.
That’s too bad, I would love to listen to it someday!
Also, Edward is the best! 😁
My family has rituals – every Friday we get cheap takeout pizza and everyone looks forward to it all week. Every end of month we do a little fire and burn some paper and make s’mores and toast to the new month, and we celebrate the goddesses of Hyrule every quarter of the year. We left Christianity when my firstborn was a baby but he used to make us pray before meals because he likes rituals so we’ve made a bunch of our own.
That sounds wholesome and delightful. May your pizza and s’mores rituals be passed down, from generation to generation, with happy food family feelings.
Funny thing about cults: a big part of how they operate is by cultivating unstable attachment in their members. Unstable attachment is a dynamic where the source of a person’s distress is also their primary/only source of comfort from it. They instill the fear of Hell and Judgement Day in you, then tell you that as long as you stay faithful and do as your told, you’ll be alright, and then everyone sings a song and drinks some juice and you believe them because in that moment you feel comfortable and safe. It’s part of why it can be so hard to leave a cult, even when you recognize that it’s hurting you; if you leave, you lose the comfort that it provided, but the fear and shame and hurt linger.
Nice theory. Is it only used in cults?
Okay, so first of all, I should mention that I got my terminology a bit wrong. The term for this is “disorganized attachment”. I’m not sure where I got “unstable”. Second of all, no, it isn’t unique to cults; it’s also a marker of toxic/abusive relationships.
That’s a very good point.
Even without the unstable attachment part, the positive social aspects of church services are designed to bring much of that experience. Just the getting together in groups and participating in songs and rituals builds attachment and bonding and for many people can get that serotonin response to kick in.
Driving the fear and distress like many cults do (or to a lesser extent throughout religion) makes it more intense, but that baseline can still provide the comfort.
Sounds like employer/employee relationships.
UBI for the win!
Maybe she can join the Lions or something.
Basically how I felt too, except it was around ALL humans, not just the churchy ones.
Satan: Welcome to Hell, Joyce Brown! Good news, we have Kraft Mac n’ Cheese and grape juice down here too!
Joyce: Oh, thank goodness!
(Satan, cackling, pours the grape juice over the macaroni.)
Joyce: NOOOOOOOO!
-Ruth appear and beats up Satan with his own fémurs-
“Ow – OW! I’m sorry dear, I didn’t mean to use your last box of Kraft Dinner! I was torturing this mort-OW! I’ll buy more tomorrow!”
It’s not the happiest relationship, but Ruth will do what she’s gotta to get the Leafs a championship.
Come on, Jason might be a supervillain’s son but he ain’t Satan!
God that would be hell though. Take your favorite two things and then pour them over each other.
“Ah, I see you like Fettuccini Alfredo and Chocolate.”
I take it then you’re not so fond of Fondue.
Not on my pasta I’m not!
Is pasta still pasta if it’s deep-fried and covered in cinnamon and sugar?
You’ve forced me to post this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evUWersr7pc
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
But deep-fried pasta covered in cinnamon is already a thing. They’re called the Mini Churros from Taco Bell.
Is that the same thing as cinnamon twists or is there a different taco bell item I’m missing because I need ALL the deep fried pasta they have to offer me
Yeah that’s what they’re called. I think.
Taco Bell Cinnamon Twists are an abomination and must be purged. Every single time I order their standard Inexpensive Food Box, it comes with those nastly little things and I have to substitute them out for some chips n’ cheese. They come out of the oven stale, I swear.
Is there any food that won’t go with either ketchup or chocolate?
Ramen noodles. My brother used to make the noodles and then drown them in ketchup and those cheap Parmesan granules. It was awful.
Was your brother a smoker or otherwise orally compromised?
Sounds like Max Tate had a cousin he never talked about.
Hummus.
I first learned about hummus from a Sally Forth strip, kept that food description in memory for years, and eventually was reminded of it by Regular Show and decided to try some. Now it’s a fairly common snack food in my home, paired up with some pita chips and usually some OJ to drink. The acid reflux is well worth it.
oh my god! i haven’t had hummus in forever! it’s been at LEAST two entire weeks!
*frantically runs to the pantry to, uh, soak the chickpeas*
cheese fondue
foie gras
shiitakes
anything with a subtle taste but already bitter
I this actually made me laugh. I really needed that after the way today went. Thank you.
Hope you’re feeling better.
When I was a kid/teen, every single time I missed a service for whatever reason there would be a voice nagging at me in the back of my head telling me God was gonna hold it against me on judgement day.
I didn’t even go to a church that taught that anybody went to Hell. Just Hell being mentioned in the Bible was enough for the paranoia to set in.
(Rolling the Grav Roulette, let’s see who I get)
Not so much missing a service as doing anything my fucked-up anxiety brain deemed ‘wrong,’ but same. Also the cultural awareness of Hell as a concept.
There’s a reason why I don’t handle belief in any deity less ironic than Anoia, Goddess of Things That Get Stuck In Kitchen Drawers.
When I teach Hebrew School, all the pure-hearted little children have heard of Hell, and I get to cheerfully assure them that Hell is not a Jewish thing, nobody can ever send them to Hell, it’s not a real place. There is a lot of relief about that sometimes.
I’m sure. Seriously, American cultural Christianity is fucked up.
I mean, they get our own special religious trauma (about the many many people who keep trying to kill us), but at least it’s the actual world, and not something specifically made up to terrify them into compliance, so that’s something.
From one of the other sides: My Roman Catholic Sunday School Teacher spent a good 15 minutes countering a fellow student’s drunken aunt’s rant about “The Jews are all gonna Burn in Hell for putting Jesus on the Cross”, It was essentially:
1: Jesus being Crucified was part of The Plan To Establish The New Covenant. Why would He punish one of his Chosen Peoples for doing exactly what He wanted?
2: His Mercy is without boundary. Even if He was angry, Forgiveness is what He sent His Son to Earth to give.
3: The Jewish People are our Brothers in Faith, even if they practice their faith in a different way to our own, and therefore it is unchristian for us to condemn them for their part in Our Savior’s journey.
4: Hell IS a real place, but The Gates of Hell are barred until Revelations comes to pass. No Soul has passed through that portal of dread in nearly 2000 years.
5:Callie, I think you need to tell your parents what your aunt has been saying when she smells like daddy’s breath after communion while babysitting you.
Oh boy
Ad 1 if so why Judas are not saint, besides Romans put Jesus on cross 😉
Ad 2 forgivness is if they say sorry and embrace Jesus love, but true, God dont use ancesors sins rule anymore
Ad 3 its very hard to belive that. God make all that work with Jesus and then went oh ok you are ok not beliving in My Son, but by “every path is good” rule fair enough
Comment just for biblical study funsies i dont want Jews or anybody in hell
There are many roman catholic churches which are saying jews are going to burn in hell or go to limbo for not being catholics (not following his disciples), but I don’t know many that say Judas and all jews are the same…
I refer to point 1 Khyrin if killing Jesus was Gods plan and you cant blame Jews for that you cant also blame Judas
Well I can’t argue bc I haven’t even read the bible. I heard it’s about some guy who invented aircraft sandals and then got fixed on rooks yelling bc nobodies buy a house at the country to get awaken by some punk volatile instead of traffic. Just saying what I hear catholic people say here (among them some fundies, opus dei style).
You can’t blame the Jews for killing Jesus, because we didn’t do it, historically.
Crucifixion has never been a Jewish practice, it would be against our own religious laws. Crucifixion was a Roman practice — those mighty imperialists who were actively in charge of us and killing us around this time.
So, Jews didn’t crucify people. Even if we did crucify anyone (which we didn’t), we literally were not in charge of who got death penalties when Jesus died.
The reason the gospels call us out is that Jesus and the Gospel writers considered themselves Jewish — when they say “the Jews did this!” they are saying “WE did this, we ourselves are the bad-guys in our story, we should repent!” The writers did not mean “Those people over there, with their wacky menorahs, they did this. Let’s get ’em!”
…Mainly, Jews would really rather not be drafted into Christian stories anymore. Writing your own new stories is fine, but y’know, you always give us the worst roles, so please leave us out of them.
Theoretically, the claim is not that the Jews did it themselves, but that they turned him over to the Romans to do. Specifically that certain influential Jews conspired with some Romans to get him arrested and then incited a crowd to demand he be crucified when the Roman governor wanted to let him go.
I’m not so sure on that motivation though, conflict between the proto-Christian Jesus movement and more traditional Jews grew quickly and not too much later on as the movement spread to gentiles it was political not to cast too much blame on Rome.
I know, but the argument that we manipulated Rome to do it still doesn’t make any sense.
Let’s say the proto-rabbis think Jesus is a heretic, and a threat to the Jewish community, ie, he’s gonna piss off God and God’ll totally smite us. (More specifically, God will allow the Romans to smite us.)
In the rabbis’ worldview, it makes no sense to get the Romans to brutally torture/kill the heretic. (Nor did they do that to any of the *other* doomsday heretics claiming to be the messiah during this time period!)
A) You’re maximizing your sin by causing another to sin for you.
B) If you really super want a heretic to stop preaching, you have way better options that are more your style. You can ostracise him and his teachings (like they eventually did with Elisha ben Abuya! Pretty successfully!). You might spread stories that he did something really sinful, like maybe he slept with a student (like the stories of Beruriah, who was way sassier than Jesus). Any rabbi worth his kosher salt *definitely* writes down a play-by-play of their debates with the heretic, exhaustively, with an ending that btw Elijah the Prophet showed up and totally said the rabbis were right. …This is the kind of thing the rabbis did near this time period.
Colluding with our oppressors to get the guy publically tortured and killed (guaranteeing that the community pays attention to him) doesn’t make the list. Even if the proto-Rabbis had that power, which they didn’t, it’s still the opposite of what they want.
Whereas, early Christians are smart, too! They realize they shouldn’t publicise a story about how their rulers are the bad guys. Don’t stand in Roman-ruled Judea and talk about how the Romans are the worst, or you will get very dead. This theory makes so much more sense.
Sheesh, did I ever write a late-night wall of text.
Tl;dr: Jews didn’t cause Rome to do it, either. Really, really wasn’t our style. Early Christians just knew way better than to talk smack about Rome.
Are you trying to make sense out of religion (or to have a religion make sense)? I never managed this one..
So yeah, Joyce did not, in fact, ever ‘feel God’ and was aware of that fact on some level this whole time, and her emphasis on Biblical literalism was an attempt to cover up for not feeling the spiritual connection because she was terrified to admit that and terrified of the divine judgment from Doing Christianity Wrong!
And as we’ve seen, perhaps at least a little envious of Becky in that her faith appears to be genuine in spite of everything that by all rights could have shattered it.
I think it’s only fair for me to chime in and say, “Yeah, now Willis has explicitly stated what she felt.”
but im really smart and cool for calling it right
right
But isn’t that how their church wanted it? The anxiety of doing it wrong, while everyone else must be real believers keeps you more obedient and makes them money. In other words, they wanted everyone to feel guilty. It’s a tactic in the catholic church (“catholic guilt” is a thing), where hell & confessing sins is also a thing, and I’m guessing it’s the same for American fundamental protestants.
Becky is the exception because she never Could be fully obedient to the church without going against her own nature (being a lesbian) and lost a parent to suicide (who should therefore be in hell). Instead of taking it out on herself, she broke with the church but not with the belief. I don’t expect her to become an atheist too, she’s supposed to give representation, but frankly it was never safe for her to become an atheist until later. When Joyce went through the same process of being made aware of a fundamental contradiction between her moral code and the church (Dorothy being a good person, Becky being gay) she was far away enough and safe enough to reject it all.
You know I bet it’s strangely cathartic for her to finally admit to someone that she never enjoyed going to church
maybe it will… a bit later
Sounds like she genuinely enjoyed the social aspects, and until recently she told herself she enjoyed the other parts too.
Joyce liked being in a community and belonging, yeah – I feel like she might be particularly missing that because she has no real community without it. She has friends, sure, but none of them like each other much or hang out together, and the closest she’s gotten to a community gathering lately is either ‘birthday party for Becky’s dead mom which was later thrown in et face as an example of how shitty she is’ or ‘mac and cheese with Becky and Dorothy while Becky acts passive-aggressively shitty’.
Joyce needs to join a club or something, I swear.
> Joyce needs to join a club or something, I swear.
Oh, there might be some atheists or rationalists or secular humanist club around…
Ya mean like an eSports team?
I kind of dread to think what. A college atheist club is like.
I’m not sure why it’d be any worse than college christian club, or a christian college.
It could be significantly better than a Christian college club and still be dreadful. Christian clubs set a very high bar for cringe (at best).
The Satanic Temple! It would be perfect for her, they’ve got activities like after school teaching outreach programs for kids and protesting government establishments of religion, they’ve got a few random rituals, and they’re really atheists.
There might even be a Unitarian Universalist church – all the community and none of the dogma…
That’s basically what the Lions Club is.
I’m pretty sure they feed you to some actual lions if you bring up religion at one of their eye exam outreach events.
Welch’s Squelches That Thirst!
Try Welch’s new flavor: Grapeture! So good, you’ll ascend!
My old eyes are getting blurry. I read “Try Welch’s new flavor: Grapeturd!”
So what I’m hearing is Joyce liked Tristan.
But she very clearly stated that she doesn’t even like Tristan! Just like she doesn’t like Walky!
So now I wonder what Tristan’s college life is like
He’s a (presumably) white male kid from a fundamentalist Christian community at a Christian college (it was stated by Toedad that Joyce was the only one from their church they allowed to go to a secular college)
I’d rather not find out
I mean…Becky was a White Female kid from a fundamentalist Christian Community at a Christian college. Kinda rude to just throw people’s baseline description out like that would adequately determine what kinda person they are.
Cosigned.
Notarized!
Authenticated!
Filed!
Recorded!
Spindled!
Laminated!
It was also stated by Joyce back when she met Sarah. Apparently she’s the most well adjusted of the whole group.
Of course, we now know per Ross that ‘best-socialized’ actually seems to have meant more like ‘most obedient’ and ‘least likely to break programming when exposed to the secular world.’
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/03-when-it-crumbles/renewal/
Well that was successful. They should’ve tried buying her a car and sending her on an all expense paid mission in India. worked for her brother.
I love how “well adjusted” definitely meant “most likely not to stray from our teachings”.
It’s one of those things that I’m pretty certain Joyce hasn’t told Becky, because how do you broach the subject of ‘btw before Amber’s dad killed your dad and we used the fight as an opportunity to flee, he told me the adults were all so proud of my obedience specifically and I’m not sure what to do with that fact’? Like, in the moment, Becky’s dad had just died and also Joyce was coming off getting kidnapped twice in one morning and having to jump out of a moving van, and then after time had passed suddenly it’s a Thing even assuming Joyce totally remembered and processed it that day due to the sheer cascade of trauma.
Like, it’s fucked up, I suspect it’s a major part of Joyce’s trauma, and it’s so damn hard to explain compared to the more straightforward ‘my dad tried to kidnap me twice and then he was murdered by his accomplice the second time.’
Was Tristan homeschooled? We only know she went to church with him, not that they were in the same HS group.
Not sure I’m happy to learn the existence of Christian colleges.
“I don’t even like Tristan”, is it ?
“Please, notice me Tristan Senpai!!”
I think she’s mentioned him specifically as a reason why two church services in the same day. Because sometimes he wouldn’t be at the early one and it’s TRISTAN.
Has Tristan been mentioned before?
She mentionned before that she especially went to both services because he was there or something
Yeah, there was some mention back during the visit home arc, I think?
He’s a boy from their congregation who Joyce is too repressed to admit she found attractive, is I think our consistent takeaway.
This one at least tracks with typical adolescent behavior.
Here’s a mention I found.
There’s another one earlier in that arc, too.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/help-2/
Oooof, one of the comments on that strip in particular aged like fine milk:
“of course! don’t you remember the Tristan arc? When Dina was kidnapped by Blaine and Toe Dad. Causing the main characters to team up with Tristan to rescue her! I can’t believe you’ve forgotten about that part!”
This was four years before the comic actually had Blaine and Ross team up to kidnap multiple characters, including Dina. And the following replies even talk about “time travel” and Willis using it to remove Tristan from that arc…but not removing the arc itself.
SpooOooOky.
yeah, in a similar context to this. A boy at her church Joyce had a crush on
I never liked church. It was boring as shit and they asked me to stand too long. Don’t force me to stand if you want me to enjoy your ritual.
standing in the church? like, standing and sitting several times? in Catholic church you have to stand and sit several times? What about a chechen style Zikr?? https://youtu.be/AxSWVkPfVc8 🙂
Vinnie: Why didn’t you kneel in the church today?
Clarence Day: I… I just couldn’t.
Vinnie: Just because your father doesn’t kneel, you must remember he wasn’t brought up to kneel in church, but you were. Has it anything to do with Mary? I know that she is a Methodist.
Clarence Day: Oh, no, mother. Methodists kneel, Mary told me. They don’t get up and down so much, but they stay down longer.
https://www.moviemistakes.com/film13250/quotes
I saw this dancing this week, doing my research about religion and I find Zikr so much awesome.
We had to stand too long and kneel way too long.
I didn’t like synagogue either. Eventually my folks made a deal with me: I’d only go on alternating weeks, but when it was my time to go, I’d go without a fuss.
(I was a rabbi’s kid. My fusses must’ve been pretty intense to achieve a 50/50 bargain. Good job, kid-me.)
My littlest kid likes church. “It’s a place to poo” he says. He wears diapers.
awwwww ^^
I forgot to add it was either during churches visits or when his mother chants some concert there. We are non-denominational atheists.
The few times my family went to church when I was a kid I found it extremely boring. I was glad when we stopped going the year before I started high school.
Oh boy. Yup. The withdrawals have begun.
Wait, how many strips in a row has Walky interacted with Joyce without teasing her? This is a genuine caring reaction from him.
Every moment he’s standing there in his underwear is teasing her.
Screw Tristan? right there in the church? Pretty out there Joyce, but I support it.
Right on the altar! Finally, that thing is getting PROPERLY consecrated.
I kind of have a theory that due to Fundementalist Christianity’s “all or nothing” approach, for those who break free of it tend to have a very deep alienation from and disenchantment (at least) for religion in general.
Also applies to ex-Catholics and ex-Greek Orthodox I’ve known.
Me, I just read random pages of the pew Bible and doodled on the church bulletin until it was time to go home.
I enjoyed looking through the hymnals. Nothing like the liturgical order to pass time during the sermon.
I was allowed to read books in the seats, as long as they were Jewish books. This ranged from kids’ adaptations, to actual Torah translations, to poetry, to the Book Of Virtues (not actually Jewish), to The Cardinal’s Snuffbox (choose your own adventure), to Maus. It was a good ruling.
That was basically my experience as well. I could never make myself pay attention, and I felt tremendously guilty over it. I constantly worried that God would punish me for doodling Sonic the Hedgehog running through Green Hill Zone whenever I wasn’t in reading-random-pages mode.
(remember when we weren’t sick to death of green hill? good times)
I’ve only ever been to mass at weddings and funerals, so every time I mostly just kept an eye on what everybody else was doing so I wouldn’t look too out of place.
To be fair, the juice was my favorite part of church, too. I don’t know where they got it but it was the most delicious juice I have ever tasted and they only gave it out in like 2 oz glasses during Communion which was only a couple of times a year. Of course, as a kid I had know idea when those sermons where so every time we went to church I would be anxiously trying to figure out if this was one of the times we got to do Communion.
I just remember that my dad was a deacon who served the juice and wafers every Lord’s Supper and made us pick up all the cups after service.
I wonder how much of panel 4 is Joyce projecting her current anxiety and uncertainty onto her memories, and how much of it is her realizing that baggage was there all along and she’s only now able to unpack it.
From what Willis has talked about in the past, and considering both that Dumbiverse!Joyce is especially based off of Willis’s own experiences, and that this is not the first time she’s expressed similar sentiments in-comic; I’d say the latter. It was there all along.
Unpacking baggage… processing anxiety. It’s interesting how it works like that.
No matter how carefully you pack your anxiety, it always comes out a little too wrinkled from getting smooshed at the bottom of the bag.
It’s always been there, yeah. During the Rich Mullins dream sequence she started to realize she never actually heard God when she prayed.
I want to see what tristan looks like now.
I agree. It might be underwhelming since he’s not a character, but he’s part of the lore, so it could be interesting.
I like to think he looks like Edward Cullen.
Same.
Oh geez, Joyce.
I know I made fun of her yesterday, but it’s more obvious now she has a lot to unpack from a life saturated with Christian expectations. What do you do when you get stuck in a social routine that snaps when those social bonds break? What routine in life is there to follow when literally nothing else seems…valid?
Did anyone predict Walky would be the first to begin to grasp how all encompassing religion was and how traumatic it was to be in it and to leave it?
Where were you when Walky was better at this than Dorothy?
Ah, the ol’ “everyone else is having a strong connection except me” thing, when in reality everyone else is experiencing what you’re feeling. Glad I never felt that one (about my faith). Was speaking in tongues or having spasms after being shoved to the floor involved at Joyce’s church?
We know they did the laying on of hands thing, but I think that other stuff would be a bridge too far for Hank.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeittogod/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/quarters/
Uhmm… funny thing is… when i left the LDS church… my excuse for myself was that i didn’t have time for the services… you see, in Architectural school you had to do this scale models of building projects every week and by hand and it took a looooooot of time… like i only went for sleep 4 times a week for some time, really hard. Sundays were work days for the monday workshop presentation, etc. I was full of doubts already, but would not have left the church all by myself without the scapegoat of working on my school projects…. and after a few years I finally gathered the courage to go to the bishop and quit the church for good. I was a convert for 7 years, and an inactive member for another 4 years… And, yeah, i never blamed the church for anything then, i blamed myself for not being good material for exaltation, and so and so… It took me some more years to fully rebooting and becoming agnosthic again (as i was as a child, before being LSD member)… But i really dig Joyce and those feelings of belonging to a community outside your family (your disfunctional family…), the Church was my space away from home were i felt useful and goal oriented for all my teenage years, the sense of security and destiny was strong… but not strong enough to keep me inside…
huh! thanks for sharing.
so if your schedule was more of an excuse what would you say made you quit? do you think it was hanging around more secular people in architecture school?
uhmm… my country is nominally catholic, so was my family. But i did elementary and high school in a presbiterian school. I was very esceptic of the Bible and of any religious group, let alone LDS beliefs, up until the missionaries made us go down and pray together. The feelings!! the warm feelings got me into. And just like Joyce, at some point, the feelings were gone, no more voice of god, just myself inside my head. I was just following the motions. So the architecture school, were the church is not your whole life, was the first step out. But i cant deny that my girfriend, wich had a history of church activity and then shunning (because she liked Madonna a lot… and dressed like her), had a strong influence on quitting in an official manner. No more inactive member, please erase my name from the list, dear Bishop. 🙂
haha i’m sure Madonna would be honoured to hear that =)
So add that to the list of potential de-radicalization triggers:
* architecture school
* Madonna
Religious imposter syndrome sure sounds super fun
Like standard imposter syndrome but it’s morally wrong and you’re going to hell
omg
No, yeah, it’s great. Truly. I recommend it!
Try having imposter syndrome for being human 😖
I’ve got enough going on, but I appreciate the offer.
Have you read anything by Temple Grandin? She basically has that, but makes it work for her. She said she feels like an anthropologist from Mars.
Temple Grandin. Oh. Hai PTSD trigger.
One way to relax is by practicing a discipline that clears the mind and releases the happy chemicals in your brain without requiring subscription to a dogma. Exercise, yoga, meditation/mindfulness practice, chanting (even just movie quotes you find meaningful), practicing a skill like drawing or sculpture, walking outside, folding laundry, cooking, building stuff, crafts, singing or playing music… just something simple and repetitive that absorbs your full concentration and takes your mind off your cares. There are so many ways to find inner peace without belief in a God or dogma. Even doing math problems can do it.
Maaaattttthhhh…… 🤤
something about how specific this example is makes me think you’re a practitioner of movie-quotes chanting yourself? =) …want to share some of your favourites?
“I am one with the force and the force is with me.” I chanted this in a whisper as I held my grandmother’s hand while she died.
Recently, a friend called me from his deathbed. I didn’t chant with him but I sang that line over and over when he passed.
From Star Wars.
Or, “Don’t worry yourself over Humpty’s big spill. He’s just gone where the rest of the Universe will.” -from SMBC comics.
Thanks for asking, milu! 🙂
I also like, “Just do it.” from the Nike commercial.
Or the Mr. Rogers song, “You’ve got to do it, do it, do it, and when you’re through, you can know who did it, ’cause you did it, you did it, you did it!”
The Mr. Rogers song, “What do you do with the mad that you feel?” brings me a lot of solace.
But my real jam is the sea chanties, like “The Wellerman”. A good repetitive work song will chase those naughty blues away!
wow, well thanks for sharing <3
i love that you finds words of comfort anywhere. you sound like you're always willing to make words your own if you find that they resonate. i've never had the responsibility of accompanying someone while they passed, so i have no idea what words i might turn to in the moment. but i'm sure we all have our private mental scrapbooks of meaningful words. i can think of some songs that would feel appropriate maybe, but i suppose i'll see how i feel if and when the occasion arises.
Oops! Looks like I used too many URLs and wound up “Awaiting moderation” again. Here, I’ll repost without the websites:
Thanks so much for your kind and sweet words, milu. It’s so nice to hear from a friendly voice.
A very dear old friend (who I had a little spark with back when we were younger) is now dying of cancer. He’s antireligious but also says, “I have a personal relationship with the deity I don’t believe in.” So I’m working on putting together a little playlist of passing songs.
Here are a few:
Rich Mullins, “Elijah”
Leave her Johnny (The Longest Johns Community Choir)
Have you seen the Ghost of John? (chorus round)
Johnny Cash, “Ain’t no Grave can Hold my Body Down”
“Poor Wayfaring Stranger” / (“I’ve gone across the Rio Grande”)
Johnny Cash, “Hurt”
Billie Holiday, “Gloomy Sunday”
Louis Armstrong, “Saint James Infirmary”
“Nothing Compares 2 U” (Prince, Chris Cornell, Sinead OConnor…)
Trout Fishing In America, “Close Your Eyes”
Those are just the ones that come to mind right now.
What do you say, folks, any suggestions? Mix tapes are such an 80s thing, but it’s good to be old school when celebrating a friend’s life.
One day when the tongueing is done we’ll take our leave and goooooooo!
Joyce has always had that nagging little doubt in the back of her mind, hasn’t she…
Has Tristan been mentioned in the Walkyverse, or is he new from Dumbiverse?
You were right, alt-text. Screw Tristan!
Joyce certainly wanted to.
In public??
You got to get that serotonin level rush somehow.
It’s called exhibitionism and it’s in the Constitution. Seventh amendment, specifically.
Don’t worry Joyce. This isn’t that bad.
In a couple more weeks you’ll start following the money and decide it’s about nothing more than collecting 10% from everyone, and then you’ll be REALLY messed up.
(Disclaimer: Of course it’s about more than that — a lot of the people collecting 10% are genuine believers who think they’re really doing good with their preaching — but making connections like that and bitterly going all-in on them beyond what’s justified is the sort of thing that the disillusionment process prompts.)
Being a comic character is a mixed bag: people know you’re freaking out before even reading the content of your words when they see a wall of text. Whether that’s a benefit or not probably depends on who you’re talking to.
God, Joyce, have you tried not being raised in a fundie cult? Jeez, get over yourself, with your difficulties that stem from no longer existing in what you were taught to believe was the default and only acceptable state of being. It’s not like long-term exposure to any given environment from birth would have had some sort of effect on your brain or personality and the sudden jarring removal from that environment might be causing some dissonance in your life, holy fuck.
Why can’t you be like all the normal people and just numb yourself from the day you exit the womb, casually ignoring and dismissing any and all stimuli so that you effectively grow up in a purgatorial vacuum, devoid of any discernable personality outside of talking down to others for “allowing” things to affect them in even the slightest of ways? Kids these fuckin’ days, I swear.
Okay, I’m a huge fan of sarcastically paraphrasing opinions I disagree with, as readers of these comments know, but … nobody’s saying that? Like, at all?
Constantly misrepresenting Joyce’s anger and trauma as her just being a new edgy reddit atheist who’s being mean to woobie Christians was the main event for the entire course of the Faith-Off.
I don’t need other people to be saying it, because I’m not arguing with anybody or throwing shade at them. I’m making my own comment, independent of any existing arguments, because I don’t read those arguments anymore for the sake of my own mental health. If anyone happens to feel particularly called out by my unaffiliated remark in this case, that’s not especially my problem.
Or to be curt: So what?
I literally thought you were tearing apart a mod-deleted comment.
It kinda sounds like you have a voice inside of you saying that Joyce sucks, and/or that you suck in some similar way. If so, that sounds… not fun. Does it help to argue with it?
Oh, was there a comment deleted? Lol no, I was just goin’ off for shits and giggles, not in any specific direction. For the record, though, I do all my inner-voice arguing out loud. Social Distancing and isolation do things to a person.
Dang, Joyce needs a hug or something.
Nobody has hugged this kid in ages and she’s going to wither away.
Come to our church for Tristan, stay for the creepy guilt.
See, this is why living on the West Coast is best. You sleep in to 10am, and then in the Fall and Winter months Football’s on! And other sports other times of the year too!
…lot of triggers in the strip today, huh?
Joyce…. that’s terrible! She really needs to learn how to relax!!
An hour in one of those sensory deprivation float tanks would do her a lot of good.
I managed to skip literally all of the church thing due to the fact that the original Transformers aired here on Sunday mornings when I was a kid, and lol at the prospect of religion competing with giant shape-changing robots.
Damn. i wish she would sit down and TALK about it with someone she trusts. Perhaps Sarah if she wants to be patient that is. does the college have a support group for people who left their faith behind or something like that?
I mean, she talks a lot of shit about him, but she is already talking to someone she trusts right here. Naturally, he’s not like her first pick, but he’s definitely in the inner circle, so to speak.
That said, yeah, she ought to open up about some of this stuff with others. I get the impression some of Walky’s mockery of Christianity might be coming with personal experience, given his past acting gig and that I thiiink Sal’s Christian. Still, I don’t get the impression the Walkertons were ever big churchgoers, so his perspective on this is going to probably be pretty limited.
Yeah, I see both of them as raised nominally Christian, but without a lot of emphasis on it. Like many Americans.
I’m not sure if either of them have really stated their current religion. I get the feeling Walky’s atheist, but I don’t remember an explicit statement. Pretty sure Sal hasn’t made one.
I think there was at least one strip fairly early on where he mentioned the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I think Joyce asked him about church or something to prompt it.
Sal hasn’t mentioned it, no, though I suspect at bare minimum she’s not that fond of Catholicism after her time at school.
Oh, I’m sure. I could just swear she’s said something before that sort of hinted at a spiritual side, whereas Walky might be atheist, or might just find making fun of “fundies” hilarious. Which, granted, it is, but still.
Yes, Walky is atheist in all continuities even the ones where Joyce is still a Christian/Cheesus.
Given that Joyce is supposed to be somewhat autobiographal for Willis (I’m unsure of the extent to which artistic license was taken or some events are either downplayed/exaggerated for comic narrative purposes.) It may be worth asking him but from my experience most colleges to equipped to handle what is essentially some naturally de-programming themselves from a cult system and all that entails. Hell, they’re barely able to handle people who struggle with more normal trauma.
I always love a good Joyce and Walky conversation. It’s kind of funny how their dynamic has evolved over time. There’s this silly antagonism, but we do also see that they are still friends underneath that. Also, occasional notes of attraction from both parties that they are quick to want to disregard.
wait… no one made a masturbation joke yet? …for real?
OK then,
Joyce! ask Sarah how she “relaxes” on Sunday mornings! Of course if you’ve never tried you might need to go back to her several times and ask for advice. A process known as “Trial and Sarah”.
That would be a plot twist alright.
Ok, this has been hinted at a few times in comments, but I’m gonna start my own thing on this:
Joyce REALLY needs to learn to masturbate.
At the very least, it’s something to do on Sunday mornings.
I mean, it’s been talked about pretty explicitly in the comic, not just hinted at in the comics.
I’m gonna have to agree with Walky. Joyce needs to find herself a hobby or something to replace going to church on Sunday mornings.
Also, “Forget A New Way to Relax. You Need A Way to Relax.” sounds like a good book title.
god, I feel so sorry for people raised like that, and I’m speaking as a lapsed catlick
I know what you mean. I used to be an updog.
oooh i know what that means, having minored in Sugondese.
I’m far too clever to fall for these traps, so I’ll just casually drink this lovely wormdo I’ve got here.
I wonder if Joyce could not turned from christianity if her comunity weren’t a bigotry one, or at least, people in her church were real and sincere people.
You say that like escaping christianity (and religion in general) is somehow a bad thing.
No, not like that. I was thinking about today strip and a moment in my life, when I got involved with Buddhist people from a community in my city. I’m getting along with their. So I’m getting myself thinking about groups,
if I stay in a group for their values or how they treat me…
@Victory
If it’s something you treasure and makes you a better person, yes? Buddhist, Jewish, Jedi, or otherwise. Some people find something deeply special and good in their faiths.
I mean, if Joyce’s church and upbringing were completely different then she might not have turned away from it, but then she’d be a completely different character on a completely different journey and this would be a completely different comic.
Yeah that’s just It’s Walky!
Joyce started practicing again once she got her memories back, her parents were funny sex weirdos, and she and Walky don’t really fuss about it.
My impression is that Joyce apparently was always about the ritual and community but never about God.
Didn’t Tristan end up become the Fifth Doctor?
It doesn’t have to be Tristan, cause f*ck you Tristan (not literally), but yeah, screwing?
That’s a new way to relax, Joyce.
so…I’m getting “on paper I had a supportive community, but actually I was just forced to get up early and crammed into a building with people I don’t really like to do some tedious rituals until I got a treat that justified the whole thing for me.” Sounds like an accurate summation of the basic church going experience for a teen
The “on paper I had a supportive community” part is also making me think of Dorothy and Becky now.
Everything about Joyce’s church seems to suggest they said a lot about God, good, love, and happiness but reinforced constantly hate, exclusion, and control.
I thought of the best way to make Joyce relax. She needs to invest in some “self hanky-panky” and buy herself a toy or two. Of course she has to be willing to goto an “adult” store and not chicken out.
Or she could just go to the nearest washing machine.
I mean. Amazon. They also often have vibrators in stores with health sections, near where the condoms are.
Or if you’d rather go for a specialty online store, Adam & Eve has treated me ‘n Ms. Taffy pretty good. Mails right to the house, discreet packaging, the works. Got this little purple vibe that really does the job, with all these little special rhythms and strength settings.
You gave it a name? Not that there’s anything wrong with that — I usually just call it my octagon.
oh my god you can be so hilarious sometimes XD
i’m pretty sure Taffy was referring to their partner!
i’m sorry if i offended, that was very spontaneous and not very tactful probably, i just legitimately had a belly laugh and i wanted to express my gratitude for that <3
Eh it’s alright, glad you had a good laugh 😃
Kinda lost tho. Did Taffy ever mention they had a partner?
i mean i think they might have, but it’s just the way they said it. If you mentioned a Ms or Mr Wellerman, without further context i’d assume you were talking about your partner. But listen, maybe i’m wrong and you’ll have the last laugh =)
Oh, the toy’s name is probably on the packaging but I threw that away. To answer more directly, I most certainly do have a partner. 8.5 years into the relationship, I’m feelin’ fairly confident sayin’ so. She purty.
That’s sweet! Also thanks for clearing up that litte misunderstanding we had there 😅
whoa i don’t think i’ve ever seen a vibrator in a french supermarket. o america, land of wonders.
What about at a pharmacy? When I’ve seen them at Target and Kroger and such here, they’re in the pharmacy area. And then, of course, CVS, Rite Aid, etc. They’re often pretty basic ones but they exist. Also, because of this discussion, I was checking vibrator availability at CVS, and apparently if you want to buy a bullet vibrator, you’re limited to six at a time. The more you know!
😶 Why………?
I mean why only six at a time? Is there like some Egg Vibrator Dragon they don’t want you to summon? 🤪
lol! yeah that sounds super random.
no not even in pharmacies, i mean maybe there’s a pharmacy out there stocking vibrators but it’s definitely not common. which is a shame, i mean it’s obviously relevant to sexual health.
Thank you, now I need to go bother the good people at the nearest CVS about this policy.
If they have Meijer in Indiana, she’s all set
All she needs is a driver. Someone who’s chill enough to help a gal go buy a vibe. And possibly manic/embarrassing enough to distract from the awkwardness of actually purchasing one.
Robin should drive Joyce to Indianapolis to buy toys.