Joyce is doing this out of genuinely not knowing, but this really is the best way to deal with people like Mary. Feign ignorance of their innuendos and dog whistles and make them explain it.
Yes, but forcing them to explain themselves more plainly makes their arguments sound dumber and their hatred more visible to others. It also denies them the ability to hide behind “nicer” sounding euphemisms or “politeness”.
Plus, as demonstrated here, it’s just genuinely unsatisfying to them and requires more work on their part.
If you can make shittiness a chore to maintain around you, either through active hostility or this more subversive “I don’t get it” approach, you make the space around you an inhospitable environment for their hateful shit.
I forget who pointed it out but when someone says or does something racist and it’s not a joke you can go, “I don’t get it, can you explain?” and watch them struggle. I did that once to a coworker who said he, and I wish I was joking, “______-rigged” something, and no he did not say ‘jury.’
I… have no idea what could fill that blank other than jury, but given the context I’m assuming it was some slur that you don’t feel comfortable repeating?
…man white people really just love shoving that word wherever huh. German/finnish/Dutch chocolate, Brazil nuts, jerry rigging. Is nothing safe from being slurified?
I am fully willing to believe Mary is also racist on top of the other crap, but I don’t recall her ever being racist? Am I forgetting something, or are you just assuming she’s racist too?
This is what I do with a lot of stuff, actually, if I’m not entirely sure of what someone is saying, playing up the ignorance usually gets people to be more clear, and gets assholes or bigots to overplay their hands.
It would be pretty great if Ruttech went under due to investing in cryptocurrency and Carla has to learn how to live and get along among the non-billionaires. Well, great for making her stock with Booster go up at least.
Mary looking off into the distance when talking about “lying men” implies no, and that’s why she’s back to be actively malicious as opposed to “just” having a homophobic haunted house
Another weakness with Mary’s argument, besides it being invalid, is that Joe didn’t make any advances on Joyce, it was the other way around.
Joyce needs to make sure that Joe is ready to have sex. She’s his first relationship, and (from no personal experience) I imagine that it will be quite a different experience.
He did not, bit it’s not a totally unreasonable conclusion to reach based on what Mary presumably overheard.
That said Mary is still awful because, you know, the reasonable/decent thing to do upon REACHING that conclusion would be seeing if Joyce was actually okay or not and seeing if she needed some kind of help, rather than taking the opportunity to quote TERF rhetoric.
Yeah, Mary didn’t even pause to figure out what Joe and Joyce were actually arguing/talking about, which removes any power invoking it could have given her in this (shoddy) act of ambush bigotry.
Types like Mary are the less dangerous ones. They’re so fixated on the buzzwords and their closed-off mindsets that they’ll just slot whatever thing you care about into their sermon, mad-libs style, and it’ll be painfully obvious that they don’t care about you or your problems, they just want to preach.
The ones you have to watch out for are the ones who take the time to learn what you actually care about and what actually scares you, really worm their way into your trust, and *then* try to convince you you’re broken garbage without Fundie Jesus’s help or whatever. “Love bombing” is a subset of this one I think.
Mary is honestly one of the better evangelical types because her entire thought process comes down to “I’m right and that’s that” and she just kind of shouts her belief structure at you. She’s genuinely too stupid to actually know how to manipulate or coerce!
And yeah sure there was the Billie/Ruth thing but blackmail that practically drops itself in your lap isn’t hard to take advantage of.
Oof that´s quite what a dark empath does!
There´s also the destructive type such as Billie, who “sacrifices” herself for her “loved” ones.
Basically she normalized self censorship and self destruction so much that she expresses “love” through it. And the worse part is that she does it unknowingly. Only self reflection or therapy may unveil that.
I honestly kind of like that Mary is explaining “men and women should be in different spaces” after the dorms have been coed for probably decades and she’s been in college for months. She literally is just parroting whatever the last person she talked to said.
While that quote gets used a lot against gender critical and radical feminists, Beauvoir work isn’t much at odds with them. Beauvoir did most of her feminist work alongside radical feminists who at that point were the mainstream feminist branch. She viewed women’s oppression was rooted in femininity – both women’s inclinication to it and men’s treatment of it – and the solution was to transcend it individually and cuturally while requiring that differences of the sexes be validated, mutually recognised without using those differences to justify mistreatment, and treated the body as our lived situation and the experience of it as what makes us, us. These views line up with most gender critical and radical feminists, as even when the latter largely view women’s oppression as rooted in men’s mistreatment of girls’ and women’s biology, their solutions of an individual and cultural shifts particularly in institutions that incentivise and enforce gender and justify mistreatment on biology line up well.
Beauvoir work is far more at odds with now mainstream progressive, liberal, or other branches of feminism that view oppresion and solutions to it being around agency and choice. Her feminist ideals were not very big on that. Beauvoir has interesting writing and eventually became an advocate for women’s liberation, some of her feminist ideals are just as if not more horrific as Rowlings. She advocated for releasing child predators and the removal of age of consent laws, argued that no woman should be allowed the choice to raise her own children because too many woman would choose it, that everyone should ideally be bisexual & freely love regardless and then there are the accusations of grooming and abusing girls she had authority over.
The dozens of branches of feminism all have interesting writing and arguments of varying strengths on why things as they are and how to make things better. They also all have icons within them that were assholes, did horrible things and/or advocated for harmful things, all socio-political movements and ideologies have – that’s part of the problem with them or trying to lump them all together under any umbrella term.
Speaking as a post op person, they don’t count vaginas unless you were born with them. Get bottom surgery they hate you even more. I speak from 25 years of sad personal experience.
I think female spaces are usually the drapery section of Bed Bath and Beyond or basically any overly coordinated village in Animal Crossing. Or maybe that’s just autism again.
Independent bookstores with a bookbag rack. I mean, they’re welcoming female spaces, but based on my experiences going with my spouse they’re very much for the ladies, with dudelit as a “hey, I suppose there’s a market for some dudelit, too.”
I once went to the post office looking to return a bill that had been sent to my address by mistake. I handed it to the post woman at the counter and got curious so I asked her what they do with bills that get returned. She offered to show me and escorted me down the hall to a room. She opened the door and inside I was shocked to find a large pile of bills thrown in a pile 3 stories high. I was astounded and moved to step in and get a closer look before she stopped me and said that was against the rules. When I asked why she said it was an all “FEE-MAIL SPACE!” 😁
The animal crossing thing is just both, that’s girl autism. Also according to a Chris Fleming bit, Trader Joe’s and wherever they hide their meat snacks
On the one hand, Mary feels like a strawman of the hateful people out there. Not as much in degree of spite towards trans people, but more because of how stupidly and overtly she’s declaring things like that.
On the other hand, I think that “her boyfriend left her, causing her to go on an exaggerated TERF+Misandry arc” is 100% in fitting with how stupid she’s going about this.
Mary is totally a strawman, because because the things she says are too baldly the results of her fundamentalist thinking rather than what she thinks reality is.
That’s a weird sentence so I’ll try to illustrate with an example.
In this strip she says “they want to feed and heal people for free!”
It’s meant to be a ridiculous sentence, because of course this would be a good thing, why is she saying it like it’s a bad thing? We’re meant to find her absurd.
And in real life, fundamentalists do and say a lot of things that imply or outright state that giving people free healthcare/food/shelter is a bad thing. But the important distinction is that they always rationalize it in their minds by saying that it’s impossible, too expensive or that it will only teach people to be dependent on the state, that illegal immigrants will take advantage, etc. I will emphasize that the result of their logic is STILL saying that free healthcare is bad (which is something a reasonable person would not think), they are just able to do mental gymnastics to think their logic is both good and moral.
What makes Mary a strawman is that she’s a prop in the shape of a fundamentalist person for us to point and laugh at.
If she had a little bit more depth she would not be, because we would see the justifications she makes up in her head to say the most horrible things while still calling herself a good and kind paragon of morality.
But maybe that would make her too similar to Joyce (or how Joyce used to be), so we get this instead.
Sorry, but there really are people who talk just like Mary even about things like feeding and healing people. Heck, a US presidential candidate literally warned that his opponent would give people health care…like, that was the whole threat. Healing people.
Yeah, I mean, I can talk to an infinite number of Marys any time I want by telling twitter I’m transgender.
She is cartoonish in that you usually have to annoy them for several hours before they forget themselves and say what they mean as plainly as Mary does with the slightest provocation, and here where she gives up without going for twenty more strips saying “you know what I mean!” This is the fun cartoon version of an exact conversation I’ve had dozens of times, but Mary’s ides are certainly real.
yeah I’m not arguing people like Mary don’t exist, I’m saying they are usually more wary about saying they want children to die in cages as long as those children are the ethnicity they don’t like.
They at least pay lip service to the idea that children should be protected, it’s just that THOSE children should have known better than to have parents that entered a country without documentation, dontcha know
the way Mary attempted to recruit Joyce is definitely typical of a young adult reactionary
the only discrepancy here which would be incorrectly labeled “straw-man”, is that she’s doing this in-person and in public for the sake of something which can work well in a webcomic format,
where-as IRL the alt-right movement and their recruitment process is primarily internet-based
Mary pretty much has always been anthropomorphized 4chan
Mary feels cartoonish and reductive, but I don’t really know if a version of this story that took more time to flesh out a realistic portrayal of the rhetoric of reactionary bigotry would be better.
Of this story? No, it would not be better. The only way that would work is if we were doing a weird Earth-2 Chick Tract where Mary is a Satanic figure tempting Joyce into alt-rightism with feminist-sounding pablum, and that’s really not the kind of comic this is and honestly I don’t think anyone really cares enough to see it. Certainly not with Joyce, who’s always been a Good character.
Okay you know I am actually kind of curious, you keep mentioning “That isn’t the kind of comic this is” in relation to your hypotheticals about Mary and I don’t really what exactly does that mean? What kind of comic it isn’t?
Replying here because the other thread collapsed, but I’m from Chile! I didn’t know there were more Latinos among the Commentariat, this is super cool :DDD
I said that DoA is not a Chick Tract, which is a type of comic that was semi-popular (or at least infamous) in the late 90s. Which I don’t think anyone would dispute? It’s much better written, for one, and is a melodrama comic with bouts of zaniness mostly focused in well-written mostly good characters being mildly assholish and learning and growing and dumbing of age and all that.
And I asked if you were English to imply you were mad about a joke about English people I made earlier but honestly I just don’t care any more and don’t want to have an argument.
I don’t find it very pleasant either but it’s a flaw of mine that I argue back when I disagree with something even when it would better for my mental health to just dismiss it.
I feel like we’re both a bit calmer now than we were yesterday, so let me try to put this to bed so we can move on with our lives:
Mary is a uniquely dangerous villain because she’s omnipresent in the dorm and committed to causing harm for its own sake, and she’s also a clownish buffoon so incompetent that her homophobic haunted house is a make-out spot for lesbians. I feel like this makes her the worst of both worlds, clownish enough that she’s hard to take seriously as a villain, but too evil for her appearances to be much fun, which makes her uniquely frustrating because a storyline will often gesture in one direction and I always like the gesture more than where we end up getting (as opposed to, say, Toedad, who had exactly one story in him and then died).
So this time it opened with Mary trying to manipulate Joyce into transphobia and I was like “Oh! Mary is a manipulator villain now and a commentary on how alt-right people recruit and Joyce is going to find it persuasive but eventually realize she’s being conned” and got kind of invested in that idea, even though in retrospect it didn’t make sense. I would’ve enjoyed that storyline.
The last Mary storyline was Becky and Dina finding her homophobic haunted house funny and charming, with Mary being a full-on clown, and I really liked THAT idea too, and I wrote my little mental fanfic of Mary following Becky around trying to be homophobic but being so inept that Becky and Dina actively enjoyed Mary’s presence and they had this weird kismesis relationship where they’re friends in this extremely bizarre and silly way until eventually Mary finally lands an actual hit and they have a falling out and Mary feels awful for about two panels before deciding it was all the gays fault and she’ll get them next time Batman and maybe she can be more serious next time if that’s what Willis wants.
Either of those versions of Mary would be preferable to me over one who’s a bit of both and the two sides never quite gel tonally. She can be Azula or she can be homophobic Doofenshmirtz but I’d prefer she pick a lane and commit to it for at least a storyline.
Due mostly if not entirely to me being a snarky asshole yesterday because I was mad my fanfiction was fake yet again, this has turned into some weird fight that persisted long after both of us have gone to bed and woken up and aren’t feeling super emotional about a dramedy comic for teenagers any more. It’s 3:30am my time now and I’m going to go to bed again soon and presumably this is the last appearance of Mary for the rest of the year if not longer so it’ll be be done and she won’t be able to hurt me any more.
I read (well, three quarters!) of your comment, and I don’t necessarily agree that Mary’s rhetoric *has* been casually dismissed. Joyce of course has had every reason to sympathise with a host of people different to herself by now, and also likes and prefers Carla to Mary just on personal grounds (both posture, but Mary kicks people when down, Carla makes them shower shoes). However the seeds she insinuated which Joyce felt “sounded good, except coming from you” might cause Joyce anxiety and stress while she works through them, possibly in a way that accidentally sends up the wrong flags to others. That’s a lot more realistic of a Joyce reaction – unfortunately, because personally I’d be happier just seeing her growth pay off in showing Carla loyalty and care.
Yeah you are right I absolutely not going to read all of that
And even if I did even it’s very unlikely I would start agreeing with you. It has been a regrettable endeavor for everyone involved.
Okay never mind it wasn’t as long as I thought. And yes as predicted I don’t agree with you still, I think Mary works just fine as she is written, I think you put too much though into it. And I wasn’t really angry with you, I mostly found some of the argument you made to be weird and/or nonsensical and generally frustrating (I was pretty sure you were trolling, but I don’t think a troll who write so much).
I reported my own comment for being long and boring.
Oh, come on! I read the whole thing. The issue is clear: your creativity is in overdrive. Use it to write an actual novel, or a webcomic or whatever; it’s clear that you can.
As someone who seldom comments and even more seldom comes back to see replies… I understand writing a novel then feeling ashamed, but you should not! I don’t know if I *agree* necessarily, but I find your thoughts interesting. 🙂
This post inspired me to look up “pablum vs pabulum.” Some sources say they mean two different things, while others say “pabulum” is the British spelling of “pablum.” So that wasn’t much help, and I’m never going to think about it again.
I’m afraid she is really not much of an exaggeration. People like her really are THAT level of weird and lacking in self awareness of how deranged they sound to normal people.
I’m going to out myself as old enough to have read the Roomies Mary storylines, but I wonder if we aren’t seeing a more nuanced/updated version of what happened there.
As the guy who’s been weirdly annoying about Mary lately, her being a complete one-dimensional obsessive is exactly how all terfs act in real life, with basically no exceptions. Making hating other people your whole identity tends to, well, make it your whole identity, and for some reason this is even more true of terfs than it is of other kinds of bigots, or really even other kinds of transphobes (I mean, it’s true of transphobes of course, but somehow even more true of terf-flavored ones).
If anything, Mary isn’t one-dimensional *enough*, compared to real-life Terfs, as terfism is kind of the event horizon of the timecube black hole that is claiming Jews are literally lizard people who control everything (See: Willis’ contemporary in 2000s webcomics, Tatsuya Ishida of Sinfest fame, which has somehow gone past transphobia to some kind of surrealist Super Transphobe God Super Transphobe. Or don’t, Sinfest is awful).
Like, if Mary were real then she’d be about six months away from claiming gravity is a myth and Jews literally have magic powers. She’s at the point where she’s literally irredeemable.
Just skim Timecube (a relic of an older internet!) and imagine there were a lot of blatantly racist depictions of Jews that were literally lizards and also playing cards for some reason and also stereotypes that were homophobic at one point but drifted off into being zombies or something. It’s at *that* point now, where it’s so disconnected from reality it’s no longer coherent at all.
If there’s any value in reading it, it’s in watching how a boomer’s mind slowly disintegrated from toxic exposure to British people
Nah, stonestoss at least have some degree of subtlety and coherency in his awfulness. Sinfest is basically just stream of consciousness nazi beainrot. (In case anyone didn’t know, yeah the author has gonna full nazi, like, think the Holocaust didn’t happen, Aryans are superior and Jews are the source of all the evil in the world levels of nazi)
In case anyone actually needed any proof that Joyce and Mary are indeed extremely different and always have been, I think the first two panels provides. Joyce is a delight just being all ‘this isn’t a female only space though…?’ while Mary spews TERF talking points.
Oh my god I saw your profile pic and suddenly everything clicked for me. It’s all Jason’s fault for living in Ruth’s room for a bit. This is what happens when alt-right conservatives are exposed to the natural radiation of English people. I don’t know why, but it’s what happens *every time* a right-winger and a brit get too close. Glinner, JK Rowling, it’s what happened to Tatsuya Ishida, too, he got on UK politics forums and went mad.
Joyce isn’t even fighting back. She seems like she intends to, but she has to figure out what the heck Mary is even trying to say first because her argument is baffling. She’s just asking for clarification and that has already defeated Mary.
Carla is openly trans though. To the extent that her parents are famous rich people and their trans daughter Carla is like, public knowledge. Pretty sure Joyce is the only one who doesn’t know.
Statistically someone else would have to be oblivious too right? How famous is Carla supposed to be? Sure it was news but it’s not recent news. Is Carla like a celebrity? I feel like it’s a fact you’d at least have to look up like if you were someone with an unjustified hate boner like Mary. Carla just expects people to already know because she’s out and proud, but it doesn’t mean Joyce was that big an exception does it?
I’m pretty sure they said Carla was on the cover of some magazine and also was the catalyst for some trans rights court case/law in Indiana. So it was probably pretty big news within the last 10 years, and would almost definitely come up if you looked up her name anywhere.
There is no outing Carla, if Carla was anymore out she’d have two drones flying over her head carrying a “Awesome Trans-girl here” billboard, it would probably have flashing lights too.
For all Carla’s focus on how great Carla is, it’s been very rare that she’s brought up being trans – and generally only obliquely at that. She doesn’t act like she expects everyone to know, just that everyone might.
“Not sure who’s more annoying, the actively hateful person trying to ruin lives and spouting garbage or the self-centered person just living her authentic life and hurting absolutely no one.”
Yeah when you really think about it, Carla is one of the characters that has done the least things wrong besides being a bit annoying on purpose. I think people focus too much of they fell if she was a real person they had to interact with rather that just enjoy a funny character. (It’s not like having a cartoonishly huge ego for comedic effect is a rare character trait anyway)
And she and Rachel explicitly called out in one of her first appearances that she’s trying to come off as an asshole, but isn’t very good at it so they keep forgetting.
Godddd she continues giving me more TERF Vibes than Classic Fash Vibes. The former are fascists too of course, and the latter are chameleonic enough to pick up their lingo, AND YET.
Idk fam, she’s pinging in that specific zone of my anger radar like crazy.
Anyway, thank you Joyce for getting her to fuck off.
Sorry this is unrelated but the thread above kind of reached its limit (partially because of me not knowing when to shut up) and I wanted to ask if you live her in Argentina or one of the neighboring countries?
sdjgslkj I saw that message first, I’m sorry! Replied over there but I can repeat again, no prob ;33 I’m from Chile. It’s always exciting to meet people from all over the world in the comments sections of the comics I follow, but DOA is my oldest haunt, and I’m so so delighted there’s more of us LatAm sibs in here /o/~
since we have no confirmation on whether Mary became a feminist (just a very shitty one) since we last her or she just borrowed talking points from the worst of them, I’ll focus on something else: it’s very horrible of her to bring up Ryan to Joyce, but maybe she doesn’t know that Ryan nearly drugged and raped Joyce.
She DOES know that Ryan threatened Joyce and Dorothy with a knife though, so she still sucks (on that regard, as well as many others) even if she’s ignorant of the party date rape
“Considering everything you’ve been through this year so far” (a couple of days ago) sounds pretty ominous tbh. But honestly, having been stalked and threatened is bad enough on its own – just throwing it at Joyce’s face to make a point shows Mary truly dgaf about women.
And notice how Mary completely ignored Joyce directly referencing the kidnappers while at the same time implying that “evil men” infiltrated her faith.
There is not a goddamn chance that Mary is a feminist.
This is just how Transphobes talk about things, even dudes who demonstrably hate women will talk about ‘men invading female spaces’ because that’s the rhetoric that justifies their position.
Oh my god I had someone arguing in one of the tans subs that we shouldn’t use this because it makes light of something serious and will make people not take the danger as seriously as it warrants. I didn’t have to spoons left that day to argue that our best weapon is making fun of them for their ridiculous stance and to keep pointing out tht they aren’t feminists by any stretch. Sometimes baby trans are a bit excitable.
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists are still feminists, they are just terrible at it. If you say they are not, you’re getting into a No true Scotsman fallacy and might fall into thinking that feminism as a philosophy or political activism is incapable of causing such harm, because the ones causing harm are not “true” feminists.
It’s very similar to saying liberals or leftists cannot be antisemitic, because antisemitism goes against what their ideals preach. “This person is leftist therefore they cannot be racist/antisemitic” is a false conclusion because it’s based on assumptions that do not apply tovery leftist.
Similarly “this person is feminist therefore they are not transphobic” is also a false conclusion.
Again, there are a handful of radical feminists who are trans exclusive. The vast majority of people currently using the label TERF aren’t actually feminists, radical or otherwise. Nor because it’s impossible to be both feminist and transphobic, which would be a No True Scotsman kind of thing, but because they’re just not feminists. The only “women’s right” they’re concerned with is the right to exclude trans women and they’ll happily work with the most patriarchal right wingers to achieve that goal.
I would like to think that since this was a conversation in a public hallway (as far as college goes) Carla was just listening and as she stated in a previous strip. Drawing enjoyment from the fact her mere existence has Mary dying inside everytime she remembers Carla exists.
Which of course, Carla does at every possible moment to everyone because she is great and we, of course, are bugs.
Come on Mary, what ARE female spaces? What is this common thread you’re grasping for? Is it a physical space where you’re entitled to decide who belongs, that includes the outdoors where it’s fair to exclude pretty much nobody but murderous criminals, i.e. Ryan “Druggo McStabs” Sinclair? Cause I want to hear the argument about why there’s something gendered about this place. Or is it some kind of ideological “space”? Is your gender an ideology where only people who share your ideas and never challenge them are welcome to speak? This could become hilarious if you didn’t have to be so vague about everything.
Okay goodbye Mary “You know what I mean!” Bradford
I’m confident her lawyer has explained to her Imane Khelif and the Republic of Algeria have those records. Not to mention to her followers giving any suggestion of changing her mind is the biggest crime she could commit. Just a desperate act of a coward frightened beyond all reason, I guess.
Supremely stupid move on her part. As others have said, those records are already in the possession of Imane Khelif, the Republic of Algeria, and anybody else who felt like screengrabbing them, deleting them now seems like basically an admission that yes, she knows what she did and yes she knew it was illegal. Whoopsy!
Joyce: “Carla, you’re a transgender???”
Carla: “What the fuck, no?? I’m the transgender. The original, you might say.”
*Joyce looks awestruck and vanishes like the TARDIS*
An overlap in how they express themselves, but consider their motivations. Carla is demanding and offputting in a quite deliberate way cause she needs nobody around who she can’t be sure will love her at her worst, while Faz likes to talk about how great he is because he really wants people to believe him to maybe let him believe it himself.
I can’t decide if Mary is an entirely too on-the-nose depiction of a transphobe with zero subtlety what Willis is annoyed about lately, or if this is just a great way of showing what an empty, venal, insecure little bongo Mary is inside.
Like yeah sure this is closer to a terminally online atheist terf, but also Mary is *so* desperate for approval and attention and control over her peers that it’s pretty in character that she’d one day just decide “actually I care about this now” and the total absence of consistency is entirely the point.
Besides, as many people have said, if she really did split up with Peter then she’s going to want to rebrand herself as some kind of Champion of Women. And not even her own actions during the Ryan events will come up in her mind, because obviously she did the right thing, of course.
She was with Peter both before and after the kidnapping. And I doubt the kidnapping matter very little to her and her outlook.
She’s a transphobic bigot, she’s using the current transphobic bigot talking points. She wasn’t using these exact talking points during “That Perfect Girl” was written in 2015, and Willis’ magic salmon that let them see the future only project their mind 3 years forward.
I don’t know where people are getting anything about a change in her life.
I’d say it’s more of a defense mechanism. If she acts bombastic enough, it deflects away from her being trans, and the constant dissection under a microscope by those around her.
I think part of the problem with satirizing the Far Right (who seem to be the entirety of the Right these days–and probably earlier) is that they really are every bit as “weird” as Mary and isn’t that weird?
Of course! Good ‘ol calm, quick-to-adapt, not-at-all-still-adjusting-to-the-idea Joyce, who absolutely isn’t currently experiencing Carla coming up silently behind her and shouting at her. In fact, coming off of a jumpscare is probably the BEST way for Joyce to show Carla just how completely normal she can be.
Willis needs to learn a thing or two from movie theaters and start charging for popcorn. He’d make a killing.
no. alt text says and beat frames imply that Carla only heard what Joyce said in the last panel. https://www.dumbingofage.com/butter/
This reads to me, that Carla thinks Joyce knows and is cool about it, and making a joke at her mom’s expense in an intentionally relevant manner.
Eh, I personally think it’s a pretty good world when, assuming somewhat good faith on the part of readers of this comic, we can dislike Carla because of her personality while not giving a hoot that she’s trans.
I actually forgot Dorothy had a front row seat to that, no wonder she's as messed up as she is right now (not that all the rest of what happened to her wasn't bad enough).
Random spec for how this could go for Carla’s story– Carla might become more saliently aware that not everyone around her knows she’s trans, and you know who that might include? Charlie, who was more aware than was that they’re dating, but overall not the most mentally present person in the cast. For the record, I think Charlie would be totally onboard whether she already knows that Carla’s trans or not, but her relationship with Charlie is where we see Carla’s vulnerabilities coming out, so she might get worried about it.
Yeah, like presumably Charlie’s okay with trans people, considering her sibling. I doubt Booster would have a good relationship with her if she wasn’t a good ally. But still, who knows how much Carla is aware of that
I wonder if Carla will accept the realization that, while Mary is trying to be transphobic about it, she’s also fully validating Carla by using her correct pronouns, as sufficient worship-based payment?
Mary is, thankfully, really bad at this and working on the wrong target. Its kind of beautiful. Like shes trying to use a sledgehammer on a pinata and is instead using a whiffle ball bat on a mailbox. And she’s missing the mailbox.
Loading ...
“I DEMAND DEFERENCE”
I’m so tired that I initially saw “I demand deference” as “I demand defiance.”
Which does still make sense since she is definitely a rebel.
I saw it as “I demand difference.” I don’t know what that would’ve meant.
She would want difference because it would make her unique; as a goddess should be.
Deference to Carla, defiance in all other matters
Now I need a tee-shirt with “I demand defiance!” on it.
Thats a Paradox right there lol. If they do what you want they wouldn’t be Defying you, but if they defy you they would be doing what you want.
No!
I mean it basically means the same thing.
JOYCE used OBLIVIOUS!
It’s super effective!
MARY used REPETITION. It doesn’t work well at all.
Joyce is oblivious because this makes no sense otherwise.
Joyce hit Mary’s WEAK SPOT for MASSIVE DAMAGE.
“Mary is GIANT ENEMY CRAB” confirmed.
Sadly, giant enemy crabs have lousy treasure drops. Not worth the grind.
Maybe the real treasure is the gaslighting and lies we’ve gained along the way?
i dunno, the giant enemy crab in Parasite Eve was protecting some choice weapons
Joyce is doing this out of genuinely not knowing, but this really is the best way to deal with people like Mary. Feign ignorance of their innuendos and dog whistles and make them explain it.
The only downside of that is mary has no shame and wouldn’t really excuse any racism/transphobia as opposed to just ‘doubling down’ on hate
Yes, but forcing them to explain themselves more plainly makes their arguments sound dumber and their hatred more visible to others. It also denies them the ability to hide behind “nicer” sounding euphemisms or “politeness”.
Plus, as demonstrated here, it’s just genuinely unsatisfying to them and requires more work on their part.
If you can make shittiness a chore to maintain around you, either through active hostility or this more subversive “I don’t get it” approach, you make the space around you an inhospitable environment for their hateful shit.
“Nobody can take a joke anymore! I’m jus’ sayin’!”
“What was so funny about saying ‘[horrible thing]’?”
The smoke coming out of their ears when they have to explain their jOkE is priceless.
I forget who pointed it out but when someone says or does something racist and it’s not a joke you can go, “I don’t get it, can you explain?” and watch them struggle. I did that once to a coworker who said he, and I wish I was joking, “______-rigged” something, and no he did not say ‘jury.’
I have met exactly 3 people who had so little shame they would have gleefully explained that comment and relished every second of said shamelessness
I… have no idea what could fill that blank other than jury, but given the context I’m assuming it was some slur that you don’t feel comfortable repeating?
It was the N word.
correct.
…man white people really just love shoving that word wherever huh. German/finnish/Dutch chocolate, Brazil nuts, jerry rigging. Is nothing safe from being slurified?
I am fully willing to believe Mary is also racist on top of the other crap, but I don’t recall her ever being racist? Am I forgetting something, or are you just assuming she’s racist too?
Since the time-skip Walky has done us the favor of pointing out that Mary is in fact a reactionary kind of racist:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/operating-2/
This is what I do with a lot of stuff, actually, if I’m not entirely sure of what someone is saying, playing up the ignorance usually gets people to be more clear, and gets assholes or bigots to overplay their hands.
Carla shows up and saves the day; how can we show her our thanks?
She accepts cash, RutCoin, UltraCar fanart, and pledges of eternal fealty.
RutCoin: How DogeCoins procreate.
ZOMGZ inflation!!!
It would be pretty great if Ruttech went under due to investing in cryptocurrency and Carla has to learn how to live and get along among the non-billionaires. Well, great for making her stock with Booster go up at least.
Your daily worships will suffice.
Hold on, lemme go back and grab the lyrics to that worship music Walky liked so much.
Mary: STOP OPPRESSING ME WITH YOUR LOGIC
It’s like kriptonite to her kind!
What about the ground she skates on?
Lol, that *would* be a great response to Carla here: “I don’t think I’ve ever seen you walk?”
haha i was gonna say that too 😀
takes personal spaces to a whole new level.
Since Carla skates everywhere, her actually *walking* on the ground is a rare event worthy of worship.
Congrats to Joyce on making Mary fuck off by sheer force of obliviousness.
There’s a reason, “I don’t understand. Can you explain that to me?” is a recommended tactic against the type
Because no. She cannot.
Most sadly, it won’t last. Mary will return. Those types of hatred are too persistent.
“I AM A DELIGHT.”
This put a smile on my face.
I find it pleasing that Mary seems to have no allies in her hate crusade.
Possibly (sadly) unrealistic, but hopeful.
well, fellow churchgoers might be hopefully they are’t all dorm students either
I feel a little bad for pointing this out, but Mary has a boyfriend and there are probably more where he came from.
Are Peter Paul and Mary still together?
Mary looking off into the distance when talking about “lying men” implies no, and that’s why she’s back to be actively malicious as opposed to “just” having a homophobic haunted house
My money’s on no
Apparently Mary died in 2009, but Peter and Paul are still occasionally performing.
Another weakness with Mary’s argument, besides it being invalid, is that Joe didn’t make any advances on Joyce, it was the other way around.
Joyce needs to make sure that Joe is ready to have sex. She’s his first relationship, and (from no personal experience) I imagine that it will be quite a different experience.
He did not, bit it’s not a totally unreasonable conclusion to reach based on what Mary presumably overheard.
That said Mary is still awful because, you know, the reasonable/decent thing to do upon REACHING that conclusion would be seeing if Joyce was actually okay or not and seeing if she needed some kind of help, rather than taking the opportunity to quote TERF rhetoric.
Yeah, Mary didn’t even pause to figure out what Joe and Joyce were actually arguing/talking about, which removes any power invoking it could have given her in this (shoddy) act of ambush bigotry.
Types like Mary are the less dangerous ones. They’re so fixated on the buzzwords and their closed-off mindsets that they’ll just slot whatever thing you care about into their sermon, mad-libs style, and it’ll be painfully obvious that they don’t care about you or your problems, they just want to preach.
The ones you have to watch out for are the ones who take the time to learn what you actually care about and what actually scares you, really worm their way into your trust, and *then* try to convince you you’re broken garbage without Fundie Jesus’s help or whatever. “Love bombing” is a subset of this one I think.
Mary is honestly one of the better evangelical types because her entire thought process comes down to “I’m right and that’s that” and she just kind of shouts her belief structure at you. She’s genuinely too stupid to actually know how to manipulate or coerce!
And yeah sure there was the Billie/Ruth thing but blackmail that practically drops itself in your lap isn’t hard to take advantage of.
Oof that´s quite what a dark empath does!
There´s also the destructive type such as Billie, who “sacrifices” herself for her “loved” ones.
Basically she normalized self censorship and self destruction so much that she expresses “love” through it. And the worse part is that she does it unknowingly. Only self reflection or therapy may unveil that.
Dumbing of Age Book 15: Female Spaces Are…Vaginas?
“Female spaces are vaginas” really is a perfect distillation of what TERF rhetoric sounds like.
I got implied radfem lesbian vibes from Marys first antiHet crusading.
If Mary didn’t mean to imply that men and women don’t belong together she shouldn’t have dog whistled it
I honestly kind of like that Mary is explaining “men and women should be in different spaces” after the dorms have been coed for probably decades and she’s been in college for months. She literally is just parroting whatever the last person she talked to said.
“on ne nait pas femme; on le devient”- simone de beauvoir, that dummy
“show me your c***!”- feminist icon jk rowling
While that quote gets used a lot against gender critical and radical feminists, Beauvoir work isn’t much at odds with them. Beauvoir did most of her feminist work alongside radical feminists who at that point were the mainstream feminist branch. She viewed women’s oppression was rooted in femininity – both women’s inclinication to it and men’s treatment of it – and the solution was to transcend it individually and cuturally while requiring that differences of the sexes be validated, mutually recognised without using those differences to justify mistreatment, and treated the body as our lived situation and the experience of it as what makes us, us. These views line up with most gender critical and radical feminists, as even when the latter largely view women’s oppression as rooted in men’s mistreatment of girls’ and women’s biology, their solutions of an individual and cultural shifts particularly in institutions that incentivise and enforce gender and justify mistreatment on biology line up well.
Beauvoir work is far more at odds with now mainstream progressive, liberal, or other branches of feminism that view oppresion and solutions to it being around agency and choice. Her feminist ideals were not very big on that. Beauvoir has interesting writing and eventually became an advocate for women’s liberation, some of her feminist ideals are just as if not more horrific as Rowlings. She advocated for releasing child predators and the removal of age of consent laws, argued that no woman should be allowed the choice to raise her own children because too many woman would choose it, that everyone should ideally be bisexual & freely love regardless and then there are the accusations of grooming and abusing girls she had authority over.
The dozens of branches of feminism all have interesting writing and arguments of varying strengths on why things as they are and how to make things better. They also all have icons within them that were assholes, did horrible things and/or advocated for harmful things, all socio-political movements and ideologies have – that’s part of the problem with them or trying to lump them all together under any umbrella term.
Speaking as a post op person, they don’t count vaginas unless you were born with them. Get bottom surgery they hate you even more. I speak from 25 years of sad personal experience.
I dunno, it’s a shared ground.
Book 15: You Should Worship the Ground I Walk On
I think female spaces are usually the drapery section of Bed Bath and Beyond or basically any overly coordinated village in Animal Crossing. Or maybe that’s just autism again.
Independent bookstores with a bookbag rack. I mean, they’re welcoming female spaces, but based on my experiences going with my spouse they’re very much for the ladies, with dudelit as a “hey, I suppose there’s a market for some dudelit, too.”
Independent bookstores with bookbag rack and in-house coffee shop. (unless there’s a coffee shop right next door)
Nah, that’s just sexism.
Tough crowd. I’ll try again
I once went to the post office looking to return a bill that had been sent to my address by mistake. I handed it to the post woman at the counter and got curious so I asked her what they do with bills that get returned. She offered to show me and escorted me down the hall to a room. She opened the door and inside I was shocked to find a large pile of bills thrown in a pile 3 stories high. I was astounded and moved to step in and get a closer look before she stopped me and said that was against the rules. When I asked why she said it was an all “FEE-MAIL SPACE!” 😁
That better and less unintentionally sexist?
I think I screwed up the punchline again actually….darn.
No, this one works, the pun just isn’t any good. 🙂
The animal crossing thing is just both, that’s girl autism. Also according to a Chris Fleming bit, Trader Joe’s and wherever they hide their meat snacks
Haaaaaa, eat shit Mary.
And go Carla!
On the one hand, Mary feels like a strawman of the hateful people out there. Not as much in degree of spite towards trans people, but more because of how stupidly and overtly she’s declaring things like that.
On the other hand, I think that “her boyfriend left her, causing her to go on an exaggerated TERF+Misandry arc” is 100% in fitting with how stupid she’s going about this.
She is in no way a strawman, there is an unfortunate number of people just like Mary out there.
Mary is totally a strawman, because because the things she says are too baldly the results of her fundamentalist thinking rather than what she thinks reality is.
That’s a weird sentence so I’ll try to illustrate with an example.
In this strip she says “they want to feed and heal people for free!”
It’s meant to be a ridiculous sentence, because of course this would be a good thing, why is she saying it like it’s a bad thing? We’re meant to find her absurd.
And in real life, fundamentalists do and say a lot of things that imply or outright state that giving people free healthcare/food/shelter is a bad thing. But the important distinction is that they always rationalize it in their minds by saying that it’s impossible, too expensive or that it will only teach people to be dependent on the state, that illegal immigrants will take advantage, etc. I will emphasize that the result of their logic is STILL saying that free healthcare is bad (which is something a reasonable person would not think), they are just able to do mental gymnastics to think their logic is both good and moral.
What makes Mary a strawman is that she’s a prop in the shape of a fundamentalist person for us to point and laugh at.
If she had a little bit more depth she would not be, because we would see the justifications she makes up in her head to say the most horrible things while still calling herself a good and kind paragon of morality.
But maybe that would make her too similar to Joyce (or how Joyce used to be), so we get this instead.
Sorry, but there really are people who talk just like Mary even about things like feeding and healing people. Heck, a US presidential candidate literally warned that his opponent would give people health care…like, that was the whole threat. Healing people.
Yeah, I mean, I can talk to an infinite number of Marys any time I want by telling twitter I’m transgender.
She is cartoonish in that you usually have to annoy them for several hours before they forget themselves and say what they mean as plainly as Mary does with the slightest provocation, and here where she gives up without going for twenty more strips saying “you know what I mean!” This is the fun cartoon version of an exact conversation I’ve had dozens of times, but Mary’s ides are certainly real.
Every so often you find one who says the quiet part loud right from the start…. like the one who’s witty comeback was “but I AM racist.”
yeah I’m not arguing people like Mary don’t exist, I’m saying they are usually more wary about saying they want children to die in cages as long as those children are the ethnicity they don’t like.
They at least pay lip service to the idea that children should be protected, it’s just that THOSE children should have known better than to have parents that entered a country without documentation, dontcha know
Not necessarily, but I’m so happy for you that you haven’t met blatantly Mary like people in your life, because they are truly insufferable.
Yet her TERF arguments are right out of the Lesbian seperatist community.
the way Mary attempted to recruit Joyce is definitely typical of a young adult reactionary
the only discrepancy here which would be incorrectly labeled “straw-man”, is that she’s doing this in-person and in public for the sake of something which can work well in a webcomic format,
where-as IRL the alt-right movement and their recruitment process is primarily internet-based
Mary pretty much has always been anthropomorphized 4chan
Mary feels cartoonish and reductive, but I don’t really know if a version of this story that took more time to flesh out a realistic portrayal of the rhetoric of reactionary bigotry would be better.
realistic might be the wrong word.
Of this story? No, it would not be better. The only way that would work is if we were doing a weird Earth-2 Chick Tract where Mary is a Satanic figure tempting Joyce into alt-rightism with feminist-sounding pablum, and that’s really not the kind of comic this is and honestly I don’t think anyone really cares enough to see it. Certainly not with Joyce, who’s always been a Good character.
You know I am starting to think that exact scenario is a sort of fantasy for you considering how often you mention it.
Okay you know I am actually kind of curious, you keep mentioning “That isn’t the kind of comic this is” in relation to your hypotheticals about Mary and I don’t really what exactly does that mean? What kind of comic it isn’t?
Are you English?
No?? I’m Argentinian.
OMG A NEIGHBOR
Weeena!
Oh, in what way? Do you live here or around one of our bordering countries?
Replying here because the other thread collapsed, but I’m from Chile! I didn’t know there were more Latinos among the Commentariat, this is super cool :DDD
This is a WEIRD fucking question to ask out of left field.
Oh my god, Karen. You can’t just ask someone [if] they’re [English].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract
I said that DoA is not a Chick Tract, which is a type of comic that was semi-popular (or at least infamous) in the late 90s. Which I don’t think anyone would dispute? It’s much better written, for one, and is a melodrama comic with bouts of zaniness mostly focused in well-written mostly good characters being mildly assholish and learning and growing and dumbing of age and all that.
And I asked if you were English to imply you were mad about a joke about English people I made earlier but honestly I just don’t care any more and don’t want to have an argument.
I don’t find it very pleasant either but it’s a flaw of mine that I argue back when I disagree with something even when it would better for my mental health to just dismiss it.
I feel like we’re both a bit calmer now than we were yesterday, so let me try to put this to bed so we can move on with our lives:
Mary is a uniquely dangerous villain because she’s omnipresent in the dorm and committed to causing harm for its own sake, and she’s also a clownish buffoon so incompetent that her homophobic haunted house is a make-out spot for lesbians. I feel like this makes her the worst of both worlds, clownish enough that she’s hard to take seriously as a villain, but too evil for her appearances to be much fun, which makes her uniquely frustrating because a storyline will often gesture in one direction and I always like the gesture more than where we end up getting (as opposed to, say, Toedad, who had exactly one story in him and then died).
So this time it opened with Mary trying to manipulate Joyce into transphobia and I was like “Oh! Mary is a manipulator villain now and a commentary on how alt-right people recruit and Joyce is going to find it persuasive but eventually realize she’s being conned” and got kind of invested in that idea, even though in retrospect it didn’t make sense. I would’ve enjoyed that storyline.
The last Mary storyline was Becky and Dina finding her homophobic haunted house funny and charming, with Mary being a full-on clown, and I really liked THAT idea too, and I wrote my little mental fanfic of Mary following Becky around trying to be homophobic but being so inept that Becky and Dina actively enjoyed Mary’s presence and they had this weird kismesis relationship where they’re friends in this extremely bizarre and silly way until eventually Mary finally lands an actual hit and they have a falling out and Mary feels awful for about two panels before deciding it was all the gays fault and she’ll get them next time Batman and maybe she can be more serious next time if that’s what Willis wants.
Either of those versions of Mary would be preferable to me over one who’s a bit of both and the two sides never quite gel tonally. She can be Azula or she can be homophobic Doofenshmirtz but I’d prefer she pick a lane and commit to it for at least a storyline.
Due mostly if not entirely to me being a snarky asshole yesterday because I was mad my fanfiction was fake yet again, this has turned into some weird fight that persisted long after both of us have gone to bed and woken up and aren’t feeling super emotional about a dramedy comic for teenagers any more. It’s 3:30am my time now and I’m going to go to bed again soon and presumably this is the last appearance of Mary for the rest of the year if not longer so it’ll be be done and she won’t be able to hurt me any more.
Oh my fucking god that’s a goddamn novel no one’s going to read that I should have used it to store my embarrassing secrets.
I reported my own comment for being long and boring.
I read (well, three quarters!) of your comment, and I don’t necessarily agree that Mary’s rhetoric *has* been casually dismissed. Joyce of course has had every reason to sympathise with a host of people different to herself by now, and also likes and prefers Carla to Mary just on personal grounds (both posture, but Mary kicks people when down, Carla makes them shower shoes). However the seeds she insinuated which Joyce felt “sounded good, except coming from you” might cause Joyce anxiety and stress while she works through them, possibly in a way that accidentally sends up the wrong flags to others. That’s a lot more realistic of a Joyce reaction – unfortunately, because personally I’d be happier just seeing her growth pay off in showing Carla loyalty and care.
Yeah you are right I absolutely not going to read all of that
And even if I did even it’s very unlikely I would start agreeing with you. It has been a regrettable endeavor for everyone involved.
Okay never mind it wasn’t as long as I thought. And yes as predicted I don’t agree with you still, I think Mary works just fine as she is written, I think you put too much though into it. And I wasn’t really angry with you, I mostly found some of the argument you made to be weird and/or nonsensical and generally frustrating (I was pretty sure you were trolling, but I don’t think a troll who write so much).
Oh, come on! I read the whole thing. The issue is clear: your creativity is in overdrive. Use it to write an actual novel, or a webcomic or whatever; it’s clear that you can.
I read it, and my initial reaction was “‘write the stories you want to read’.”
(My second reaction was to prepend “be like Amber” but, uh, maybe not.)
Willis is personally making fun of me for this post on Bluesky now, which is deserved and a sign that I should pack it in and leave
you’re definitely not who i’m talking about on bluesky unless you’re in the spam folder now and your name is creggars
Which Bluesky post do is about you?… This is about Which kind of Slipshine you want?
https://bsky.app/profile/damnyouwillis.bsky.social/post/3l2a76dpz5s2q
I think it’s this one.
It’s strange because Willis’ initial post was so very not what’s going on here that I’m not sure how ESM interpreted to be about themself.
🤔
As someone who seldom comments and even more seldom comes back to see replies… I understand writing a novel then feeling ashamed, but you should not! I don’t know if I *agree* necessarily, but I find your thoughts interesting. 🙂
This post inspired me to look up “pablum vs pabulum.” Some sources say they mean two different things, while others say “pabulum” is the British spelling of “pablum.” So that wasn’t much help, and I’m never going to think about it again.
Pabulum is Classical Latin. Pablum is a barbarism. ^_^
Yes, people like Mary are cartoonish and reductive.
I’m afraid she is really not much of an exaggeration. People like her really are THAT level of weird and lacking in self awareness of how deranged they sound to normal people.
I like it when she’s simply a vehicle to bridge between arcs and nothing more. There’s already enough people like her in my day to day life.
If she was tech savvy i’m sure versions of her would have like 50k subscribers on YT
or even like someone being trans and still being anti trans on laws/wanting to make it harder for ppl to transition
“more because of how stupidly and overtly she’s declaring things”
Have you heard of J K Rowling?
Yes, unfortunately. On the positive side there is a massive amount of well written LGBT+ friendly Harry Potter fan fiction on fanfiction dot net.
And also Ao3 and elsewhere.
Which still benefits her, because it shows companies considering doing business with her that interest in her works outweighs the harm she does.
I promise there are real-life transphobes exactly like Mary. Many are even worse.
Mostly because they have a lot more money or are actual politicians that have say over laws.
I’m going to out myself as old enough to have read the Roomies Mary storylines, but I wonder if we aren’t seeing a more nuanced/updated version of what happened there.
What happened in Roomies, IIRC, is that Mary had an abortion and there was a brief fakeout that she’d gone non-evil as a result.
You can’t really do that in DoA, because there’s no way for Mary to have gotten an abortion because women don’t have rights in Indiana any more.
See also: “other genocides shouldn’t be compared to this one.”
These people really do exist and really are that awful.
I mean, Rowling is pretty much exactly like this if not worse.
As the guy who’s been weirdly annoying about Mary lately, her being a complete one-dimensional obsessive is exactly how all terfs act in real life, with basically no exceptions. Making hating other people your whole identity tends to, well, make it your whole identity, and for some reason this is even more true of terfs than it is of other kinds of bigots, or really even other kinds of transphobes (I mean, it’s true of transphobes of course, but somehow even more true of terf-flavored ones).
If anything, Mary isn’t one-dimensional *enough*, compared to real-life Terfs, as terfism is kind of the event horizon of the timecube black hole that is claiming Jews are literally lizard people who control everything (See: Willis’ contemporary in 2000s webcomics, Tatsuya Ishida of Sinfest fame, which has somehow gone past transphobia to some kind of surrealist Super Transphobe God Super Transphobe. Or don’t, Sinfest is awful).
Like, if Mary were real then she’d be about six months away from claiming gravity is a myth and Jews literally have magic powers. She’s at the point where she’s literally irredeemable.
I wish there were a way to see just how far Sinfest has gone without actually seeing just how far Sinfest has gone.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030219072854/http://timecube.com/
Just skim Timecube (a relic of an older internet!) and imagine there were a lot of blatantly racist depictions of Jews that were literally lizards and also playing cards for some reason and also stereotypes that were homophobic at one point but drifted off into being zombies or something. It’s at *that* point now, where it’s so disconnected from reality it’s no longer coherent at all.
If there’s any value in reading it, it’s in watching how a boomer’s mind slowly disintegrated from toxic exposure to British people
…um.
Are British people lizards with magic powers…?
Sssssss! Not so loud!
i mean “shhhhh.”
Sinfest is literally now just Highbrow Stonetoss.
Nah, stonestoss at least have some degree of subtlety and coherency in his awfulness. Sinfest is basically just stream of consciousness nazi beainrot. (In case anyone didn’t know, yeah the author has gonna full nazi, like, think the Holocaust didn’t happen, Aryans are superior and Jews are the source of all the evil in the world levels of nazi)
Like, he’s apparently doing a Alice spoof called “Down the Rabbi Hole”
Yeah I been reading (through the subreddit that is entirely dedicated to mock him and reminiscence to when it was actually good).
Been on twitter lately? There’s quite a few of them like her on there
She’s not a straw man she’s just a Twitter user that stepped outside
Carla is Carla, and nothing can change the Carlaness of Carla
Could Carla make a Carla that was so Carla that even Carla couldn’t Carla it?
It’s her life’s mission, to wake up every day, and do just that.
How much Carla could a Carla Carla if a Carla could Carla Carla?
Carla could Carla Carla Carla’s when Carla could Carla Carla. (No “if” about it.)
She is Carlest, eternal essence of Carlas.
Carla was there listening to most of that conversation, the moment you mention her name just strong enough emotion and she’s there in a flash.
Carla wasn’t anywhere, she just appeared there when he name was called. Like, in-universe, that’s what happened. Carla, like Darkseid, Is.
*her name, fuck.
How do I edit posts.
No freakin way. You’re trapped in Word space. You can never go back to Cube space again.
I’m choosing to read that typo as “The Name”.
so true carla
In case anyone actually needed any proof that Joyce and Mary are indeed extremely different and always have been, I think the first two panels provides. Joyce is a delight just being all ‘this isn’t a female only space though…?’ while Mary spews TERF talking points.
Even at the very beginning, Joyce has never been hateful
Yup. That’s why I said they’ve always been different. It’s pretty much only Roz and Joyce herself who ever thought Mary and Joyce were equivalent.
great ending/punchline lol. Mary needs more pies in her face.
Knowing Carla she got like a pie gun with an aiming scope and everything ^^
since a pie tin is metal, absolutely nothing completely rules out the possibility of Carla making a pie railgun
Mary is such a weird person.
And an unfortunately pretty common type these days.
Oh my god I saw your profile pic and suddenly everything clicked for me. It’s all Jason’s fault for living in Ruth’s room for a bit. This is what happens when alt-right conservatives are exposed to the natural radiation of English people. I don’t know why, but it’s what happens *every time* a right-winger and a brit get too close. Glinner, JK Rowling, it’s what happened to Tatsuya Ishida, too, he got on UK politics forums and went mad.
Joyce isn’t even fighting back. She seems like she intends to, but she has to figure out what the heck Mary is even trying to say first because her argument is baffling. She’s just asking for clarification and that has already defeated Mary.
It really show how incredibly weak TERF arguments are to the most basic form of scrutiny.
Nah, I think she knows Mary is lost cause as far as arguing with her goes. Joyce is just trying her best to not absorb anything that Mary says.
Great responses, Joyce 😀
Always good to see Mary upset and put in her place
Okay crisis semi-avoided
Lmao. Mary just outed Carla, the person who just showed up. There’s still plenty of opportunity for crisis right here.
Carla is openly trans though. To the extent that her parents are famous rich people and their trans daughter Carla is like, public knowledge. Pretty sure Joyce is the only one who doesn’t know.
Statistically someone else would have to be oblivious too right? How famous is Carla supposed to be? Sure it was news but it’s not recent news. Is Carla like a celebrity? I feel like it’s a fact you’d at least have to look up like if you were someone with an unjustified hate boner like Mary. Carla just expects people to already know because she’s out and proud, but it doesn’t mean Joyce was that big an exception does it?
I’m pretty sure they said Carla was on the cover of some magazine and also was the catalyst for some trans rights court case/law in Indiana. So it was probably pretty big news within the last 10 years, and would almost definitely come up if you looked up her name anywhere.
I would guess probably slightly less well known for being trans then say… Elliot Page?
Probably much less.
Maybe at about the same level as Musk’s daughter – except without the refresher of her feuding with him online.
The crisis is that Joyce will be weird to Carla.
There is no outing Carla, if Carla was anymore out she’d have two drones flying over her head carrying a “Awesome Trans-girl here” billboard, it would probably have flashing lights too.
For all Carla’s focus on how great Carla is, it’s been very rare that she’s brought up being trans – and generally only obliquely at that. She doesn’t act like she expects everyone to know, just that everyone might.
Oh good, Carla’s here… I’m not sure who’s more annoying, her or Mary.
Mary. Like, by several orders of magnitude.
Mary. Not even a question. Carla’s obnoxious, but Mary is Pure Poison.
“Not sure who’s more annoying, the actively hateful person trying to ruin lives and spouting garbage or the self-centered person just living her authentic life and hurting absolutely no one.”
That’s going to be a YIKES from me.
Yeah when you really think about it, Carla is one of the characters that has done the least things wrong besides being a bit annoying on purpose. I think people focus too much of they fell if she was a real person they had to interact with rather that just enjoy a funny character. (It’s not like having a cartoonishly huge ego for comedic effect is a rare character trait anyway)
And she and Rachel explicitly called out in one of her first appearances that she’s trying to come off as an asshole, but isn’t very good at it so they keep forgetting.
Are you fucking serious?
Like are you actually fucking serious with this bullshit?
Finally, Joyce asks the screaming obvious question….
None of this makes sense without Lesbian Separatist vibes from Mary. Mary said it twice
Tune in tomorrow, folks! In which Joyce will Danny it up.
To be clear, my lack of faith isn’t with Joyce but with her social skills.
Ah, relying on Joyce’s social skills and subtlety! What could possibly go wrong!
Carla you don’t walk, you just skate everywhere. And when you aren’t skating you levitate, which is why you always seem so tall.
I’m pretty sure Joyce’s deepest desire is for Joe to intrude in her female space.
I’m pretty sure she’s just kind of excited about it but has other things going on in her life tbh.
Well she says fuck now, she’s got that goin on.
Godddd she continues giving me more TERF Vibes than Classic Fash Vibes. The former are fascists too of course, and the latter are chameleonic enough to pick up their lingo, AND YET.
Idk fam, she’s pinging in that specific zone of my anger radar like crazy.
Anyway, thank you Joyce for getting her to fuck off.
Maybe Mary’s been managing some partial character development offscreen that allowed her to become feminist enough to enter TERF territory?
Maybe she’s been developing this way because her roommate is Roz and this stuff sets Roz OFF?
Oh, dude.
You might be RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Oh nooooo O.O
(That has to be a total tire fire and I need to see it.)
Sorry this is unrelated but the thread above kind of reached its limit (partially because of me not knowing when to shut up) and I wanted to ask if you live her in Argentina or one of the neighboring countries?
sdjgslkj I saw that message first, I’m sorry! Replied over there but I can repeat again, no prob ;33 I’m from Chile. It’s always exciting to meet people from all over the world in the comments sections of the comics I follow, but DOA is my oldest haunt, and I’m so so delighted there’s more of us LatAm sibs in here /o/~
CARLA IS GREAT AND I AM A BUG!
🐛🪲🦗WE ARE BUGS🐛🪲🦗
While I’m no theist if we *did* have to have a god I’d much rather Carla over whatever Mary believes in.
since we have no confirmation on whether Mary became a feminist (just a very shitty one) since we last her or she just borrowed talking points from the worst of them, I’ll focus on something else: it’s very horrible of her to bring up Ryan to Joyce, but maybe she doesn’t know that Ryan nearly drugged and raped Joyce.
She DOES know that Ryan threatened Joyce and Dorothy with a knife though, so she still sucks (on that regard, as well as many others) even if she’s ignorant of the party date rape
“Considering everything you’ve been through this year so far” (a couple of days ago) sounds pretty ominous tbh. But honestly, having been stalked and threatened is bad enough on its own – just throwing it at Joyce’s face to make a point shows Mary truly dgaf about women.
Joyce also got kidnapped by two men, Toe Dad and Blaine.
And notice how Mary completely ignored Joyce directly referencing the kidnappers while at the same time implying that “evil men” infiltrated her faith.
There is not a goddamn chance that Mary is a feminist.
This is just how Transphobes talk about things, even dudes who demonstrably hate women will talk about ‘men invading female spaces’ because that’s the rhetoric that justifies their position.
I like the acronym someone posted the other day for her:
Feminism
Appropriating
Reactionary
Transphobe
Oh my god I had someone arguing in one of the tans subs that we shouldn’t use this because it makes light of something serious and will make people not take the danger as seriously as it warrants. I didn’t have to spoons left that day to argue that our best weapon is making fun of them for their ridiculous stance and to keep pointing out tht they aren’t feminists by any stretch. Sometimes baby trans are a bit excitable.
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists are still feminists, they are just terrible at it. If you say they are not, you’re getting into a No true Scotsman fallacy and might fall into thinking that feminism as a philosophy or political activism is incapable of causing such harm, because the ones causing harm are not “true” feminists.
It’s very similar to saying liberals or leftists cannot be antisemitic, because antisemitism goes against what their ideals preach. “This person is leftist therefore they cannot be racist/antisemitic” is a false conclusion because it’s based on assumptions that do not apply tovery leftist.
Similarly “this person is feminist therefore they are not transphobic” is also a false conclusion.
Again, there are a handful of radical feminists who are trans exclusive. The vast majority of people currently using the label TERF aren’t actually feminists, radical or otherwise. Nor because it’s impossible to be both feminist and transphobic, which would be a No True Scotsman kind of thing, but because they’re just not feminists. The only “women’s right” they’re concerned with is the right to exclude trans women and they’ll happily work with the most patriarchal right wingers to achieve that goal.
I would like to think that since this was a conversation in a public hallway (as far as college goes) Carla was just listening and as she stated in a previous strip. Drawing enjoyment from the fact her mere existence has Mary dying inside everytime she remembers Carla exists.
Which of course, Carla does at every possible moment to everyone because she is great and we, of course, are bugs.
Can I love Joyce more?
….yes I can. 🙂
Come on Mary, what ARE female spaces? What is this common thread you’re grasping for? Is it a physical space where you’re entitled to decide who belongs, that includes the outdoors where it’s fair to exclude pretty much nobody but murderous criminals, i.e. Ryan “Druggo McStabs” Sinclair? Cause I want to hear the argument about why there’s something gendered about this place. Or is it some kind of ideological “space”? Is your gender an ideology where only people who share your ideas and never challenge them are welcome to speak? This could become hilarious if you didn’t have to be so vague about everything.
Okay goodbye Mary “You know what I mean!” Bradford
Meanwhile, after not tweeting for two weeks, JK Rowling has started deleting tweets. great timing with this storyline eh.
Does she actually think no-one has sold records of every piece of filth she’s ever uttered online?
People pay money for that?
I dont know where that came from? Like I can’t even figure out what word I was using
Solid?
has old records
I’m confident her lawyer has explained to her Imane Khelif and the Republic of Algeria have those records. Not to mention to her followers giving any suggestion of changing her mind is the biggest crime she could commit. Just a desperate act of a coward frightened beyond all reason, I guess.
Voldemort is on the run, I love to see it.
Supremely stupid move on her part. As others have said, those records are already in the possession of Imane Khelif, the Republic of Algeria, and anybody else who felt like screengrabbing them, deleting them now seems like basically an admission that yes, she knows what she did and yes she knew it was illegal. Whoopsy!
Joyce: “Carla, you’re a transgender???”
Carla: “What the fuck, no?? I’m the transgender. The original, you might say.”
*Joyce looks awestruck and vanishes like the TARDIS*
She disappears in a puff of having-questions-for-Dorothy.
There is a non-zero overlap between Carla and Faz that I am just now starting to notice.
Though Carla actually can back it up with… Well her everything
They are in fact both human beings. That’s significant overlap right there.
An overlap in how they express themselves, but consider their motivations. Carla is demanding and offputting in a quite deliberate way cause she needs nobody around who she can’t be sure will love her at her worst, while Faz likes to talk about how great he is because he really wants people to believe him to maybe let him believe it himself.
Bye, Mary. Hope it’s at least another two full years, real time, before you have a speaking appearance again.
Go bother Mary, Carla. At least then you can both be annoying for our amusement XD
I’m already amused with Carla, though. She rocks.
I can’t decide if Mary is an entirely too on-the-nose depiction of a transphobe with zero subtlety what Willis is annoyed about lately, or if this is just a great way of showing what an empty, venal, insecure little bongo Mary is inside.
Like yeah sure this is closer to a terminally online atheist terf, but also Mary is *so* desperate for approval and attention and control over her peers that it’s pretty in character that she’d one day just decide “actually I care about this now” and the total absence of consistency is entirely the point.
Besides, as many people have said, if she really did split up with Peter then she’s going to want to rebrand herself as some kind of Champion of Women. And not even her own actions during the Ryan events will come up in her mind, because obviously she did the right thing, of course.
Por qué no los dos?
Everyone thinks something happened with Peter, when I think it is very clear that the kidnapping caused her to double down on her faith.
Peter came after the kidnapping, so it’s possible.
She was with Peter both before and after the kidnapping. And I doubt the kidnapping matter very little to her and her outlook.
She’s a transphobic bigot, she’s using the current transphobic bigot talking points. She wasn’t using these exact talking points during “That Perfect Girl” was written in 2015, and Willis’ magic salmon that let them see the future only project their mind 3 years forward.
I don’t know where people are getting anything about a change in her life.
Joyce consistently dunking on Mary with very simple comebacks is always fun
ladies and gents, the best girl has arrived on the scene as the worst one walks off. ~<3
Yup. Carla is awesome.
And I get the impression that her “look at and worship me, I’m awesome” attitude is largely an act that she’s doing for the fun of it.
I think it’s an over the top reaction to growing up trans in a media spotlight.
I’d say it’s more of a defense mechanism. If she acts bombastic enough, it deflects away from her being trans, and the constant dissection under a microscope by those around her.
as someone who grew up trans, you’re probably all right. ~<3
I think part of the problem with satirizing the Far Right (who seem to be the entirety of the Right these days–and probably earlier) is that they really are every bit as “weird” as Mary and isn’t that weird?
“Carla, I was just talking with Mary.”
“OH! I see; yeah, I get it. Be right back; I have to get some tinkertoys and a coconut meringue pie.”
You tell ger Carla! 😉
*her
I did not even see that typo
well start by actually walking on it rather than roller-ing in the hallways.
Excellent! An opportunity for Joyce to show how cool and normal she can be around Carla now.
Of course! Good ‘ol calm, quick-to-adapt, not-at-all-still-adjusting-to-the-idea Joyce, who absolutely isn’t currently experiencing Carla coming up silently behind her and shouting at her. In fact, coming off of a jumpscare is probably the BEST way for Joyce to show Carla just how completely normal she can be.
Willis needs to learn a thing or two from movie theaters and start charging for popcorn. He’d make a killing.
That “You know what I mean” is doing a lot of work. Then again, it always does.
Mary has expressed multiple times that she thinks everyone thinks the same as her.
Nothing makes me happier than Joyce dunking on Mary.
Ok I laughed out loud at the punch line.
So Carla knew that Joyce didn’t know?
no. alt text says and beat frames imply that Carla only heard what Joyce said in the last panel.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/butter/
This reads to me, that Carla thinks Joyce knows and is cool about it, and making a joke at her mom’s expense in an intentionally relevant manner.
…yup, still don’t like Carla.
I’ll make a note.
Wow you are so brave.
Writing this in response to a strip where someone is making overt transphobic comments is a CHOICE.
Eh, I personally think it’s a pretty good world when, assuming somewhat good faith on the part of readers of this comic, we can dislike Carla because of her personality while not giving a hoot that she’s trans.
well Carla maybe she would if you ever walked anywhere
i love mary’s sheer ineffectiveness
Who is the one disemboweled guy. I am out of the loop
It’s Ryan (guy who roofied Joyce at a party in the hopes of raping her):
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/unfinished/ <–his disembowling moment continued on next page.
I actually forgot Dorothy had a front row seat to that, no wonder she's as messed up as she is right now (not that all the rest of what happened to her wasn't bad enough).
Yeah I don’t know if we knew how bad it was. Did he die? It seems like there would have been a lot more fallout if so.
I’m surprised Mary isn’t saying that Ryan was misunderstood and in need of support.
I think she’s socially aware enough to avoid saying that openly
Sadly that puts her above Carol.
Joyce is just parrying all Mary stabs. Mary’s so low level, she’s losing with Joyce’s dumbness.
Random spec for how this could go for Carla’s story– Carla might become more saliently aware that not everyone around her knows she’s trans, and you know who that might include? Charlie, who was more aware than was that they’re dating, but overall not the most mentally present person in the cast. For the record, I think Charlie would be totally onboard whether she already knows that Carla’s trans or not, but her relationship with Charlie is where we see Carla’s vulnerabilities coming out, so she might get worried about it.
Yeah, like presumably Charlie’s okay with trans people, considering her sibling. I doubt Booster would have a good relationship with her if she wasn’t a good ally. But still, who knows how much Carla is aware of that
I wonder if Carla will accept the realization that, while Mary is trying to be transphobic about it, she’s also fully validating Carla by using her correct pronouns, as sufficient worship-based payment?
“I see! You actually love me but you are tsundere about it!”
It’s a good thing Carla skates rather than walks. That just means there’s no ground to worship.
If I have not said yet, I repeat:
I absolutely loved when Carla said to Mary “the worst thing I could do to you is exist”.
Mary is, thankfully, really bad at this and working on the wrong target. Its kind of beautiful. Like shes trying to use a sledgehammer on a pinata and is instead using a whiffle ball bat on a mailbox. And she’s missing the mailbox.
I still pray to the god of webcomics (technically Willis, I guess) that he smiteth her.
i don’t condone violence, but i’m so fed up with this TERF bullshit, so i’m wanting Ruth to take her femurs. Stand up against bullshit.