I looked it up because I was also confused. Thought it might be some character from some anime or video game, but it’s a person on Tweeter who seems to post something about transgender women very frequently.
So I’m not sure how Joyce’s facial expressions come across to anyone else but I’m getting major “is it gay if I have a crush on her” vibes from her here
There’s also a chance she’s checking out Carla’s chest to see if she can spot anything different, since it’s safe to say she’s got no knowledge of what magic HRT can do.
I’m getting “suddenly this person I think I know is way outside my experience and I don’t know how to behave.” Too many brain circuits have been switched to rebuilding conceptual frameworks. All emergency power diverted to shields.
Carla and Joyce don’t interact often but when they do Joyce is either, dodging the blame for defacing white boards with male genitalia, urging her to upgrade the spontaneous invention of shower shoes, hypnotizing Carla to reveal her life’s story with the power of charisma granting iguanas, or loudly proclaiming she isn’t off to masturbate. They don’t have normal interactions.
Carla also designed her shower shoes and helped her and Dorothy pass as older for the bar. I think she is probably a little charmed by Joyce to an extent, just, obviously aware she’s a weird one.
Yeah, especially given a past strip had her mention in a roundabout way to I think Dorothy or someone else that Carla’s boobs looked bigger. She’s noticed the boobs before, but moreso now.
As someone who is possibly on the spectrum and so isn’t very socially knowledgeable, when it is inappropriate to ask questions about someone’s situation or condition that could possibly be sensitive, like this situation? I know that witth the internet, you can do a lot of research online, but there is no guarantee that you will come across accurate information. I also personally like to get information from various different perspectives, so asking questions about what someone has personally experienced is interesting to me. I know that it can be very rude and tiring to the person in question though. Is it best to just straight up ask of they are open to questions?
I am the type of person who would be comfortable talking with someone out in the open about finding appropriate bra sizes and the difficulty and expense that can be involved. My brain just goes “We can talk about pockets sizes, so why can’t we talk about underwear sizing issues?”
I dunno, mang… I get a LOT of people asking me questions about my parts and it gets tiresome because it’s really none of their business.
…And I used to BE one of those people who would try to figure out what hormones a person was on or what their gender-marker assigned at birth might have been, when it was REALLY none of my business either. And I got VERY rightly called out on it, because I was being insensitive to people whose medical histories are really no business of anyone else’s and whose job is NOT to educate me NOR to answer every question I’ve ever had about sex and gender.
I’m not saying you would be as clumsy as I have been to others, nor as clumsy as others have been to me. You might be very sensitive. I just know in my own history those kinds of questions haven’t worked out particularly well.
I’ve just been very lucky to have had understanding people in my life. Understanding friends. Who were patient with me.
(to be clear, terms that were not original gender neutral which have been evolved into it. I know there are terms which are baseline neutral that started that way like “folks”)
I’m not talking about pronouns, sorry. I meant terms like “man, lads, guys, dude, bro, boys” all of which I’ve been called and told “Oh but gender neutral version” but if I walk into a room and say “Hey ladies” it’s never going to be perceived that way.
In the same vein as most advertised “androgynous” clothing options just being masculine clothing.
I really struggle not to use “guys” when coaching kids’ cricket (90% boys). On one memorable occasion I settled on “chaps”, which is substantially worse. Spent this summer using “gang”. Wish I could use “y’all” but, being English, I sound UTTERLY ridiculous when I say it
Honestly, I imagine this will be the case until femininity isn’t seen societally as inferior, weaker, or otherwise non-default. The reason “androgyny” leans masculine is because we accept homogenising into the male default far more as a society than we accept or reward moving toward femininity. I agree completely that more gender-neutral language as a whole would be super!
@Kelibath It’s also not helped by the messy or uncertain history of some of those terms.
“Man” started as just the word for “a person” and had prefixes attached for gender (among other things) then as English evolved through Middle English and into modern English the meaning became gendered. You have a similar evolution with “girl” which went from “a child” to “a female child” to diminutive of “a female person” (which has rightly had some serious blowback the last few decades).
“Boy”‘s roots are so mixed up in derogatory classist and racist elements I don’t even like applying it to male children. “Guys” is literally derived from a term for referring to the members of the Gunpowder Plot of November 5, 1605 and likely started as people referring to them as “Guy’s boys” though that is very unattested.
I mean i definitely use terms like gworl, the girls, sometimes she depending on the context gender neutrally. Not as liberally as like dude though (but I am deliberately working there. Everyone will be gworl – provided it doesn’t step on the same toes a bro or dude might)
My line of questioning probably would be more along the lines of how strictly you have to follow your medication time and along that vein. I am absolutely horrible at remembering to take something as simple as my allergy medicine on time. Honestly, I would probably get more onto a tangent about chirality issues in generic medications and insurance being a pain then ever really caring about what gender someone was. Probably didn’t help that I got a degree in biology and was surrounded by pre-meds. What their average lunchtime conversations cover is not the same as someone not in the biology field.
The really tricky bit is knowing when there’s enough trust to talk about rather personal issues. Supposing there is, one thing I would try is: instead of asking about the other’s personal issues, volunteer some of my own and see if it prompts reciprocal sharing. “Sorry I’m a little distracted — I forgot my allergy medicine…again. I wish I was better at remembering things like that.”
That would probably be almost exactly how I would phrase it. That and sometimes getting tired of having to remember to take the meds and why can’t it work the way I want it to without the meds. I’m allergic to grass and dust mainly, so not deadly but it can make me feel absolutely miserable.
The lunchtime comments would range from discussing about dissections performed in labs to infectious diseases and other topics. I could handle the fetal pig dissection but I didn’t take the vertebrate class due to the cat dissection (I have pet cats). I also wouldn’t be the type to joke about eating pork while dissecting a pig. I could understand the sea urchins jokes more because they were fresh and didn’t smell of formaldehyde and other preservatives. The plant labs were literally the best labs, as everyone turned into a mad scientist imagining the worst possible combination of traits for a plant monster and you got a lab on fruit.
It really just depends on who you are talking to, and your relationship to them. A lot of my friends can be pretty open about HRT, etc, but it probably helps that we’re friends and not just total randos to one another.
Its much better to ask people if they are open to questions, before interogating them. Because that is rude.
But its still not always appropriate because it puts ppl on the spot. If you dont have power over the person, which makes questioning someone inappropriate, its better to first play “Quroum testing ” by sharing something adjacent from yourself to test the reaction to the topic/ conversation. But you need to remember other ppl arent your library and do not act entitled to answers. This is esp important because some autistic ppl have a poor sense of personal boundaries on other people’s personal information. Or questioning ppl.
In regards to your 1st question, its inappropriate when you are a stranger or acquaintance.
However in this particular instance im yhe comic, the answer is basically “Never ” .
Its not your business you do not need to know.
Dont bring up “underwear sizes” issues with Trans ppl. Ever.
This itself is a good example of someone on the spectrum not understanding personal boundaries of personal information.
There is a huge difference between you volunteering that to a close friend and you interrogating a stranger ( maybe whos Trans) about their genitalia. Just Dont Ever. It solves all problems.
“I know that can be very rude and tiring to the person ” is literally equivalent to you knowing NOT to do that, but doing it anyway, ignoring boundaries.
If you know it could be sensitive, than you already have 1 red flag not to do that.
Being socially knowledgeable means paying attention to that. Not ignoring that.
There is no magic answer anyone can tell you when its appropriate to interrogate ppl about sensitive topics. Its all context sensitive, and if you are bad at respecting boundaries, or respecting how well you know someone first. Or whether you have power over someone or consent, the answer is dont do it.
Do you not understand the difference between your bra questions to a cis person or trans person?
If they are not your friends this might seem like humblebragging.
So just a note here, I used to be worse than I am now, as I had thought that I could be comfortable with people living on my quarter of the floor (dorm in Canada) to talk about stuff like how to find a bra that fits. It was then that I learned that it wasn’t considered appropriate. I had personally thought at the time that it was a harmless question since I knew that many people have trouble finding and fitting themselves for the right size. These were people that I would meet in thr laundry room while doing laundry, or in the shared bathroom.
Other than tips for how to find clothes that I don’t want to burn into oblivion because they act like a torture device, I could care less about anybody’s genitalia. Commiserating with someone with a shared frustration over clothes would be something that I would be on board for.
It’s a good clue if they volunteer similar information to you. For example I had a colleague who just started to talk casually about the breast reduction she had done. That means they are comfortable around you to discuss.
Makes sense. I have had some friends of friends that were very open about breast reduction surgery. Appendectomy is another one that everyone seems to have a story on, even if it isn’t their own. Honestly, in most cases I would probably have change blindness working against me unless there was something very obvious. I do tend to ask more questions if someone has a big red mark from psoriasis or something, but that is more because it looks like it hurts and I am worried about them. It just doesn’t always come out that way, unfortunately. When it is something someone has dealt with, especiallyfor a while, they don’t normally want constant attention drawn to it. The human ego, on the other hand, tends to lead towards ‘I see a problem and only I can fix it’ and results in offering unwanted advice or help. As someone with a family member with a health problem where there really isn’t a known treatment, suggestions can sometimes be helpful. People normally mention their problem on their own when they want help or advice, though I know that can also be oversharing too. I probably should just let everyone else initiate the conversation and go from there, or stick to weather. Weather is normally inoffensive.
Honestly? I’d recommend talking to people about nearly anything else, so that if the subject does come up later on, and it does get awkward, at least you don’t end up being “that person who always asks me for my bra size”. I’d strongly suggest finding out your roomies’ hobbies and interests and sharing yours (with an eye to the cue for “okay, enough infodump now”), then asking them how that’s going, how classes are, being legitimately concerned for them if they share part of their personal lives. If they want to talk gender and peg you as a safe person to do that with, they’ll initiate. As missilentmurmur says, one way to do that is to talk about your own struggles, and either let them initiate or perform basic sympathy, just as they’re comfortable with. Another would be to check in on how they’re doing and if they’re experiencing any hardship when stuff like the recent alt right fash riots go down. Make sure you’re friendly enough by that point if you can.
A lot of what I am bringing up is from back when I was in undergrad, since that was the last time I was living in a very social situation. I am now over 10 years past that time period. To be frank, large group social situations are not my cup of tea due to all I have to remember to be polite and adequately sociable. It is quite stressful for me and I never feel like I handle it right whenever I do speak. It isn’t unusual for me to be very quiet in situations like that. It is why I prefer written chats online vs meeting anyone in person. The stakes aren’t as high if I make an absolute idiot of myself. Asking these questions online is a way for me to learn the boundaries and see if it is possible for me to stay within them when I have to take the time to write something out. People that comment under comics are some of the most friendly and helpful people that I have ever chatted with. It makes it easier to ask things about how to improve that would end up being too stressful to ask in person. I really do appreciate the help, even if I do feel like I am being burdensome.
Not wanting to detract from this discussion, but I have to ask: that cue for “okay, enough infodump now”… what is that cue?
One of the reasons I don’t talk to people much is that, once I’m committed to a conversation, I never even know when is too soon or too late to stop.
Fun thing is, it differs depending on the person! So it’s really hard to read! But personally I’d ask the other person about their interests, first, and see how much detail they go into. Then I’d try to vaguely match the depth and timescale they used, when they ask about mine in return. Things like seeing them get more fidgety or looking away more often partway through an explanation are a cue to me to wrap up fast with broad strokes. Or at least to break the flow of info with more follow-up questions to hand the conversation back to them instead, such as “do you like TOPIC, too?” or even “wanna watch / play it sometime and see what you think?”
Getting excited or nervous doesn’t help either. I also run into situations where I am having a fun conversation with one person but someone else gets upset at me later for one reason or another. One case was where I was talking to someone my age who was a blacksmith about swords and was accused of flirting with him later. My best guess is that they couldn’t believe that a girl was interested in swords and metallurgy, but I still don’t understand the issue even if I was flirting (I
wasn’t), since he wasn’t even in a relationship at the time.
As for looking away from the person as a cue that they are disinterested, I am absolutely horrible about getting distracted by something moving within my field of view. It isn’t that I am not listening, but that my brain is constantly dealing with “what’s that!?!” in the background. It is great for spotting things out in the field, but absolutely horrible for conversations. I do wish that my brain would just turn it down a notch sometimes. In any case, how distracted someone can be can really depend on the environment and the situation. A noisy and busy party is going to be a lot more distracting than a one on one in someone’s living room (provided there isn’t stuff like the tv playing). That is why I do the best one on one and the absolute worst at large parties, as one is easier to gauge the reactions than the other.
Gonna add on, what does the person know about you? Have you shown that you are accepting of trans people and posses at least Trans 101 levels of knowledge?
I might be open to talking about some of my experiences as a trans person to an acquaintance– not much about body stuff unless I’m in a specifically queer space, but bits of that and more other experiences. But that’s if I have reason to believe the person is well-intentioned and has put in some effort. I don’t want to open up to someone if they’re just going to cut me off to talk about how hard it is to get someone’s pronouns right.
I have accidentally called someone using a female pronoun online when I know that they use “they/them”. I always feel really bad afterwards, but it is more that in a rush my brain defaults to she/her for a feminine looking name rather than they/their. My brain has not yet learned that it is not the time to be a space cadet and forget important information like that while I am trying to respond to someone in a quickly moving chat. I do wonder if English had a gender neutral 3rd person pronoun (other than it, which is mainly for objects, ideas, etc) if it would be easier to not make a mistake.
What Yumi’s trying to say is that you need to keep signalling that you’re safe in subtle, quiet ways. Don’t overwhelm anyone or keep bringing up sensitive subjects. But also don’t just ignore it if you see someone else being transphobic. If you demonstrate legitimate goodwill and understanding it can go a long way. If you do misgender someone (especially “the better way” like this, not that there really is one) then apologise straight away, tell them you’ll do better. They’ll likely not ask more as the real proof of that is doing better. But if they do ask specifically why you’re struggling you can tell them you’re ND and your brain is firing on an extra cylinder in the wrong direction sometimes. (How it feels to me!) Still, finding ways to reinforce pronouns and names and facts is incredibly important for us, more than usual, for exactly that reason. If you find it hard in general but always manage for your trans friends, that itself shows care.
A quick apology because I didn’t proof-read that, Yumi, I’m sorry, I think you were absolutely perfect in what you wrote and it wouldn’t be my place to amend it anyway. I just felt that Kimi didn’t quite understand the inferences you made. They replied immediately about pronouns to you, when AFAIK you were saying “it takes demonstrating basic awareness” including knowing not to complain or over-apologise after you do mess up pronouns (and yes, they gotta learn that somewhere, but ideally from the internet or closer trans friends rather than new people who don’t trust them yet!). The most important part I saw for them to understand is instead to give ppl “reason to believe the person is well-intentioned and has put in some effort”.
Never ask anyone anything. If they volunteer information in any way, refuse it. Stop listening. It’s none of your business, even if they’re okay with you knowing. You will be punished and they will hate you for learning. You’re supposed to Just Know™, otherwise you’re a creep. Don’t look it up online either, because if someone posted about it, you’re being parasocial by reading it and they were probably coerced into sharing to begin with. Don’t encourage that kind of mistreatment. You wanna be a good ally, you keep your eyes and ears to yourself.
Yeah, no. I can’t tell to what degree this is comedy, or sarcasm, and to what it’s bitterness; but it’s not helping Kimi, that’s for sure. And I believe we were debating a few pages ago whether Mary was even dropping TERF rhetoric to begin with, so I’m hopeful my own experience and friendships are relevant here. It’s possible to learn by inference, and pick up things from context or research them later, YES, even for autistic and other ND people. Friends who do trust you and who you’ve stuck by through their own self-revelations are more likely to call you in than call you out, but the main thing to remember is, you’re talking to people about specifically what they’re oppressed in society for. If you don’t share that oppression then you gotta be delicate. If you don’t know being delicate, depending on how close a friend you’re speaking with, either leave it be unless they bring it up (a good idea in any case to not constantly trigger somebody), or outright apologise for and say that you’re struggling with how best to be supportive and please give pointers. Definitely don’t ignore what’s shared with you directly – that’s the easiest, most helpful advice you’ll get.
It is, though. If you were replying to a jokey thread the entire way through, I’m situationally aware enough to have rolled my eyes and carried on! As it was I did say I didn’t know exactly how to take the comment.. but mistakes happen, sorry this irked.
I mean, I agree… I just think that when a self-described ND person posts under a comic about being supportive to trans people, asking how to be more supportive to and less awkward around trans people, posting weird sarcastic train of thought stuff isn’t necessarily a great idea. They just said they don’t read cues well, let’s not accidentally misinform them or make them unwelcome.
(I’ve no idea if Taffy was doing that deliberately, and definitely not suggesting anybody else is, just saying, maybe they’re posting here in lieu of doing the exact thing we’re all worried Joyce might still do next strip)
Joyce has come far just since her last encounter with a new type of queer person. Or maybe she’s just decided to be anxious about making her anxieties other people’s problems.
The really suave option, what I’ve determined after thinking about it for 32 hours since the end of yesterday’s strip, would be going “Carla, hey, Mary was gossiping about you, in case you want to throw a pie in her face or something.”
This leaves it up to Carla if she wants to involve herself in what she would correctly estimate the topic to be, and shifts the blame to Mary for any gross ideas Joyce might have recieved. (And really that is Mary’s fault for talking about a person behind their back.)
Do you have a relationship with this person outside of asking them invasive personal questions because if you don’t you shouldn’t ask them invasive personal questions. If you do you don’t need the internet’s advice, you just need to understand the relationship that you are in with them.
Yup. Something she’s done in the past, to an extent, given one of the past strips where I think she mentioned something to Dorothy about noticing Carla had “gotten bigger” and Dorothy assuming it was about the skates, and not probably Joyce noticing HRT changes or the like.
It *really* hasn’t helped Joyce for Mary to constantly talk about penises, when that’s the last thing she really needs to know or wonder about on anyone bar a potential sex partner. Not to mention Carla’s family were rich and supportive. I’m fairly sure the university roomed her in the girls’ dorm because she passed whatever gatekeeping they have around reassignment surgery.
Have we? It’s super possible that I forgot, but to my knowledge the confirmed trans characters are Malaya (nonbinary), Booster (nonbinary), and Carla (trans woman). I don’t think there’s a nonbinary dorm, so I don’t know that they could be transitioning out of their AGAB dorms (yet).
If I forgot a trans character please lemme know, I want to unforget them!
Yep! It was Zaph I was primarily thinking of, forgot his name! But I’m not sure whether Booster actually preferred the male wing or whether it’s just where they wound up due to bureaucracy. (The way they mentioned “rooming with the wrong amniotic sac” mildly hinted to me that they’d be comfortable in either.)
I think that’s referring to some more serious laws than just college rooming decisions, though obviously knowing the Ruttens had such lawyers at their disposal might have influenced the school to cooperate.
The elevator strip also implies the case was some time ago, when Carla was smaller
You can’t beat intrusive (or at least anxiety-inducing, recurring) thoughts by thinking “I SHOULDN’T”. Usually explained with a “OK NOW WHATEVER IT TAKES? DON’T THINK OF A PINK ELEPHANT ON PARADE! KINDA DRUNK TOO? HOLY SHIT IT’S LAUGHING??”
i may have added some sensorial/emotional texture to the original saying, but most people would’ve gotten at least a reaction, and thought of it however briefly. (The trick to STOP being stuck in it is to jangle the keys of something equally shiny and distracting far away from that original disruptive thought.)
I don’t think Joyce means to be non-accepting, or rude. She’s just #Stuck considering something she never had before. But I trust in her positive development as a character!
Carla showing up right as Mary does the reveal about her probably also doesn’t help with the panic and the brain short circuiting. Not saying that she would react better given a day’s grace to process the new unexpected information, but it might have been more of a fighting chance.
I didn’t get into it yesterday, but I’ve really despised Joyce for a long long time in this comic (not a whole lot to get into it, fundies rub me the wrong way), yesterday was the first time she did a thing that cracked that shell for me a bit and yes I know some will be like “she has been accepting of Becky” but I counter with Becky is her friend, and she did struggle with it still, Carla she JUST found out is trans and is making an effort (a flawed one if this page is any tell, but an effort) ~<3
She’s not a fundie though, she’s someone who was raised in that because children don’t have a choice about their environment and within months of being on her own has completely left that religion.
This isn’t to say you can’t dislike Joyce or anything, but she’s not someone who has routinely practiced that kind of nonsense as a personal choice of her own. She wasn’t exposed to anything outside of it until recently.
Also, she found out Booster is trans and was immediately accepting of them (again, if a bit flawed and weird about terminology at first) but her first reaction was “I have questions that I will not make your problem” (paraphrased).
Ignorance is also a thing she could be dealing with too. It is hard to look up more information about a problem you didn’t even know existed. It is easy to assume that everyone’s situation is just like you if you have never experienced something different (as in everyone is being homeschooled in the same culture and environment). If you were always brought up that the colors were red, orange, yellow, green, purple, black and white, how would you know to look up information about blue or brown?
I was referring to her attitude and comments in the early years of the comic, where she definitely displayed a lot of that “God is good” and “different is bad” mentality, I’m super glad she’s moving away from it, but it was there. ~<3
Oh for sure, I mean that’s been Joyce’s character arc from the beginning. That stuff was intended to be abrasive and off-putting; other characters commented as much. It seems odd to me to comment on it as a primary reason for “despising” a character when the thing you dislike about them is something you were 100% not meant to enjoy in the first place? If that makes sense? But I do get it, that stuff is obnoxious and it sounds like this is a deep-seated personal pet peeve. I’m glad Joyce is reaching a level where she doesn’t bother you as much as before.
OH she’s definitely a fundie, just one in a prolonged de-conversion process.
Thats the whole comic.
This has taken a decade plus out comic but incomic is supper compressed to a very narrow time slice. Joyce is experiencing years of social deconversion in months.
Plus she made Jesus her hyperfocus so its extra hard for her to tease out what viewpoints where from herself or background. Dorothy has been trying to coax her not to become a fundie Atheist.
Correct. In the about section of the comic Willis states that Joyce is supposed to be at least at least semi-autobiographical to his own journey out of fundie-land.
But Joyce has had a Good Heart from the beginning. Yes Becky cracked it, but so did her Fundie community. and Dorothy. and Ryan “the Preachers son”.
She immediately backtracked on Ethan and Got him to come out.
I think Trans ppl werent on her radar as existing until her Mother accused her. Joyce says stupid awful things unknowingly, and then learns feels guilty and backtracks. Thats the main comic.
People do grow from their relationships and personal interactions ( or some of us do ). Some ppl dont need that ( but still absorb tons of unconscious bias) and some ppl dont even benefit from meeting diverse ppl.
The skates are a neat choice for Carla, because they both emphasize her height, making it more likely someone will notice and maybe question, but also provide a built in excuse if someone does.
Sure, but it’s not that simple. She likes people focusing on her for the weird annoying things she does, not for being trans.
That’s why “She’s so tall, but that’s just the skates” works to deflect from “She’s so tall, must be because she’s trans.”
I think Carla gets that this is going to be a learning curve for Joyce. Not all of us are prepared to bask in the glory that is the best character of all time, Carla.
Yup. And I suspect (wishful thinking maybe) that Carla and Joyce are going to be a lot friendlier together soon. Carla doesn’t have any real friends that I know of and Joyce is someone that is going well out of her way to look past surface stuff and prejudices.
He probably has. But that would be a totally different story with different characters. And one of the main strengths of this comic are the character’s various personalities and the interactions with each other.
I will say this. When we vote for the bonus comic Carla is possibly the most popular choice.
I gotta say, “turned on by the thought of girldick” was not in the list of outcomes I thought this exchange might go, but from what I know of Joyce and seeing the way and direction she’s looking, that’s my interpretation of this page, hands down
Loading ...
BUSINESS AS USUAL
Everything is fine! Nothing is the matter!
We’re fine. We’re all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
Who is this? What’s your operator number?
*ZAP* Boring conversation anyway.
Honestly this might be a minor improvement.
I was about to say, this sort of confused adoration seems right up Carla’s alley.
Joyce please get this out of your system quickly
Carla is correct (AS USUAL)
Joyce: “I have a boyfriend, I have a boyfriend, I wonder what…, I have a boyfriend…”
yeah thats how i was seeing it toooo
joyce logic “wow shes pretty and I’m alllowed to think that now becasue its straight of me”
is it internally concistant? of course not. does it fit the patterns she used to thinking in? of course.
I mean yeah, Joyce seems to be acting basically as well as she could.
Alt-text: In full and reluctant fairness to Mary, it already had anxiety.
Now it has *more*!
Joyce uses anxiety more. It’s super effective.
. . . yeah, that’s normal Joyce, just slightly more self-aware that she’s feeling awkward.
This is the start of Joyce’s chaser arc. At the end of it she signs up for twitter and is widely known as “Halimede”.
joyce could never hope to match the prose of our dear friend halimede
i dunno, im imagining halimede denying being the ding dong bandit and it seems pretty in character
OK, I’ll be “that guy”. Who’s Halimede?
I looked it up because I was also confused. Thought it might be some character from some anime or video game, but it’s a person on Tweeter who seems to post something about transgender women very frequently.
@HalimedeMF, parodish twitter account of a lesbian chaser. based on a video game character, although that bit i’m less clear on.
So I’m not sure how Joyce’s facial expressions come across to anyone else but I’m getting major “is it gay if I have a crush on her” vibes from her here
I think Joyce is trying very, very, very hard not to try to stare at Carla’s pants looking for signs of male anatomy.
There’s also a chance she’s checking out Carla’s chest to see if she can spot anything different, since it’s safe to say she’s got no knowledge of what magic HRT can do.
Ah yes, the “magic” of getting a fat face and breasts that disappear in anything but the tightest possible tshirt
You and I have very different experiences with HRT.
ymmv.
ytmv
😍🤣
I love my cute fat face!
Or getting a good gander at her chest; she mentioned to Dorothy once that Carla looked “bigger” lately. So she’s probably thinking about boob jobs
(probably HRT, not that Joyce would know the difference)
Carla’s *tight* pants.
And she’s rockin’ those tight pants.
But can she even dance in those pants
She can skate in those pants. Who cares about dancing.
Roller disco.
At least they’re not ridiculous stripéd pants. Then she’d have to play in a band, just to be safe.
Not staring at her pants by staring at her boobs instead?
I’m getting “suddenly this person I think I know is way outside my experience and I don’t know how to behave.” Too many brain circuits have been switched to rebuilding conceptual frameworks. All emergency power diverted to shields.
To be fair alt text, Joyce already has a lot of anxieties. One more doesn’t stand out that much. (As Carla helpfully illustrates)
Carla and Joyce don’t interact often but when they do Joyce is either, dodging the blame for defacing white boards with male genitalia, urging her to upgrade the spontaneous invention of shower shoes, hypnotizing Carla to reveal her life’s story with the power of charisma granting iguanas, or loudly proclaiming she isn’t off to masturbate. They don’t have normal interactions.
xD true!
Carla also designed her shower shoes and helped her and Dorothy pass as older for the bar. I think she is probably a little charmed by Joyce to an extent, just, obviously aware she’s a weird one.
Joyce being weird probably makes Carla *more* charmed by her, knowing Carla.
“Jugs, it appears that my presence flusters you. This is appropriate. Please carry on with your flusteredness.”
The power of charisma grants iguanas? Awesome. I want some!
…oh. The power of charisma–granting iguanas. i has a sad
Also, I expected a hyphen in boldface to come out wider, not longer. 🙁
It’s visible. We see it. 👍🏼🧸
Considering I don’t have any charisma but might obtain an iguana, that’s good news.
Yes. Where does one get a charisma-granting iguana.
(Move along. No need to look at the avatar. Grin.)
Last panel is gold: Exasperated Joyce and Disgruntled Carla are the peakest faces Willis has created.
I honestly life for face we couldn’t think possible
When I saw Asher blush I never saved a pic as fast as this lol
I agree. The artwork in this page is phenomenally good.
Joyce is never beating the allegations.
Truuuue
Yep, that’s about what I expected. Awkward, but well-meaning.
She is now wondering what Carla’s real hair color is.
Dumbing of Age, Book 17: The Level of Awkwardness I Expect from You
Carla: You’re still staring at them!
Joyce: I could crawl up into them and be safe and warm forever.
The more things change…
Yeah, especially given a past strip had her mention in a roundabout way to I think Dorothy or someone else that Carla’s boobs looked bigger. She’s noticed the boobs before, but moreso now.
It literally never occurred me until this comment that when she said “bigger” about Carla in that strip she meant her boobs
The fuck you mean “it got anxiety” this Joyce already had it.
She’s so…TALL
As someone who is possibly on the spectrum and so isn’t very socially knowledgeable, when it is inappropriate to ask questions about someone’s situation or condition that could possibly be sensitive, like this situation? I know that witth the internet, you can do a lot of research online, but there is no guarantee that you will come across accurate information. I also personally like to get information from various different perspectives, so asking questions about what someone has personally experienced is interesting to me. I know that it can be very rude and tiring to the person in question though. Is it best to just straight up ask of they are open to questions?
I am the type of person who would be comfortable talking with someone out in the open about finding appropriate bra sizes and the difficulty and expense that can be involved. My brain just goes “We can talk about pockets sizes, so why can’t we talk about underwear sizing issues?”
I dunno, mang… I get a LOT of people asking me questions about my parts and it gets tiresome because it’s really none of their business.
…And I used to BE one of those people who would try to figure out what hormones a person was on or what their gender-marker assigned at birth might have been, when it was REALLY none of my business either. And I got VERY rightly called out on it, because I was being insensitive to people whose medical histories are really no business of anyone else’s and whose job is NOT to educate me NOR to answer every question I’ve ever had about sex and gender.
I’m not saying you would be as clumsy as I have been to others, nor as clumsy as others have been to me. You might be very sensitive. I just know in my own history those kinds of questions haven’t worked out particularly well.
I’ve just been very lucky to have had understanding people in my life. Understanding friends. Who were patient with me.
(And I mean “mang” in the most gender-neutral of ways, of course!)
(I non-ironically like mang as a neutral or neutral-ish thing now)
It’s not terrible. I would love for there to be “gender neutral” terms that didn’t come from masculine terms as origin, but that’s a pipe dream sadly.
(to be clear, terms that were not original gender neutral which have been evolved into it. I know there are terms which are baseline neutral that started that way like “folks”)
Do “ze/zir” have a masculine origin? I have heard of those terms before as an alternative to they/them in the singular.
I’m not talking about pronouns, sorry. I meant terms like “man, lads, guys, dude, bro, boys” all of which I’ve been called and told “Oh but gender neutral version” but if I walk into a room and say “Hey ladies” it’s never going to be perceived that way.
In the same vein as most advertised “androgynous” clothing options just being masculine clothing.
I really struggle not to use “guys” when coaching kids’ cricket (90% boys). On one memorable occasion I settled on “chaps”, which is substantially worse. Spent this summer using “gang”. Wish I could use “y’all” but, being English, I sound UTTERLY ridiculous when I say it
Honestly, I imagine this will be the case until femininity isn’t seen societally as inferior, weaker, or otherwise non-default. The reason “androgyny” leans masculine is because we accept homogenising into the male default far more as a society than we accept or reward moving toward femininity. I agree completely that more gender-neutral language as a whole would be super!
@Kelibath It’s also not helped by the messy or uncertain history of some of those terms.
“Man” started as just the word for “a person” and had prefixes attached for gender (among other things) then as English evolved through Middle English and into modern English the meaning became gendered. You have a similar evolution with “girl” which went from “a child” to “a female child” to diminutive of “a female person” (which has rightly had some serious blowback the last few decades).
“Boy”‘s roots are so mixed up in derogatory classist and racist elements I don’t even like applying it to male children. “Guys” is literally derived from a term for referring to the members of the Gunpowder Plot of November 5, 1605 and likely started as people referring to them as “Guy’s boys” though that is very unattested.
I mean i definitely use terms like gworl, the girls, sometimes she depending on the context gender neutrally. Not as liberally as like dude though (but I am deliberately working there. Everyone will be gworl – provided it doesn’t step on the same toes a bro or dude might)
Sometimes I just use animal names – so far nobody has objected to “Here come my crows!” It’s nice to be involved in a murder.
🍅🍅🍅🍅
My line of questioning probably would be more along the lines of how strictly you have to follow your medication time and along that vein. I am absolutely horrible at remembering to take something as simple as my allergy medicine on time. Honestly, I would probably get more onto a tangent about chirality issues in generic medications and insurance being a pain then ever really caring about what gender someone was. Probably didn’t help that I got a degree in biology and was surrounded by pre-meds. What their average lunchtime conversations cover is not the same as someone not in the biology field.
The really tricky bit is knowing when there’s enough trust to talk about rather personal issues. Supposing there is, one thing I would try is: instead of asking about the other’s personal issues, volunteer some of my own and see if it prompts reciprocal sharing. “Sorry I’m a little distracted — I forgot my allergy medicine…again. I wish I was better at remembering things like that.”
Those lunchtime conversations sound interesting.
That would probably be almost exactly how I would phrase it. That and sometimes getting tired of having to remember to take the meds and why can’t it work the way I want it to without the meds. I’m allergic to grass and dust mainly, so not deadly but it can make me feel absolutely miserable.
The lunchtime comments would range from discussing about dissections performed in labs to infectious diseases and other topics. I could handle the fetal pig dissection but I didn’t take the vertebrate class due to the cat dissection (I have pet cats). I also wouldn’t be the type to joke about eating pork while dissecting a pig. I could understand the sea urchins jokes more because they were fresh and didn’t smell of formaldehyde and other preservatives. The plant labs were literally the best labs, as everyone turned into a mad scientist imagining the worst possible combination of traits for a plant monster and you got a lab on fruit.
It really just depends on who you are talking to, and your relationship to them. A lot of my friends can be pretty open about HRT, etc, but it probably helps that we’re friends and not just total randos to one another.
Its much better to ask people if they are open to questions, before interogating them. Because that is rude.
But its still not always appropriate because it puts ppl on the spot. If you dont have power over the person, which makes questioning someone inappropriate, its better to first play “Quroum testing ” by sharing something adjacent from yourself to test the reaction to the topic/ conversation. But you need to remember other ppl arent your library and do not act entitled to answers. This is esp important because some autistic ppl have a poor sense of personal boundaries on other people’s personal information. Or questioning ppl.
In regards to your 1st question, its inappropriate when you are a stranger or acquaintance.
However in this particular instance im yhe comic, the answer is basically “Never ” .
Its not your business you do not need to know.
Dont bring up “underwear sizes” issues with Trans ppl. Ever.
This itself is a good example of someone on the spectrum not understanding personal boundaries of personal information.
There is a huge difference between you volunteering that to a close friend and you interrogating a stranger ( maybe whos Trans) about their genitalia. Just Dont Ever. It solves all problems.
“I know that can be very rude and tiring to the person ” is literally equivalent to you knowing NOT to do that, but doing it anyway, ignoring boundaries.
If you know it could be sensitive, than you already have 1 red flag not to do that.
Being socially knowledgeable means paying attention to that. Not ignoring that.
There is no magic answer anyone can tell you when its appropriate to interrogate ppl about sensitive topics. Its all context sensitive, and if you are bad at respecting boundaries, or respecting how well you know someone first. Or whether you have power over someone or consent, the answer is dont do it.
Do you not understand the difference between your bra questions to a cis person or trans person?
If they are not your friends this might seem like humblebragging.
So just a note here, I used to be worse than I am now, as I had thought that I could be comfortable with people living on my quarter of the floor (dorm in Canada) to talk about stuff like how to find a bra that fits. It was then that I learned that it wasn’t considered appropriate. I had personally thought at the time that it was a harmless question since I knew that many people have trouble finding and fitting themselves for the right size. These were people that I would meet in thr laundry room while doing laundry, or in the shared bathroom.
Other than tips for how to find clothes that I don’t want to burn into oblivion because they act like a torture device, I could care less about anybody’s genitalia. Commiserating with someone with a shared frustration over clothes would be something that I would be on board for.
There you go again, assuming the worst of everyone as a starting point.
The whole issue of “ask cultures” vs. “guess cultures” also comes in.
It’s a good clue if they volunteer similar information to you. For example I had a colleague who just started to talk casually about the breast reduction she had done. That means they are comfortable around you to discuss.
Makes sense. I have had some friends of friends that were very open about breast reduction surgery. Appendectomy is another one that everyone seems to have a story on, even if it isn’t their own. Honestly, in most cases I would probably have change blindness working against me unless there was something very obvious. I do tend to ask more questions if someone has a big red mark from psoriasis or something, but that is more because it looks like it hurts and I am worried about them. It just doesn’t always come out that way, unfortunately. When it is something someone has dealt with, especiallyfor a while, they don’t normally want constant attention drawn to it. The human ego, on the other hand, tends to lead towards ‘I see a problem and only I can fix it’ and results in offering unwanted advice or help. As someone with a family member with a health problem where there really isn’t a known treatment, suggestions can sometimes be helpful. People normally mention their problem on their own when they want help or advice, though I know that can also be oversharing too. I probably should just let everyone else initiate the conversation and go from there, or stick to weather. Weather is normally inoffensive.
Honestly? I’d recommend talking to people about nearly anything else, so that if the subject does come up later on, and it does get awkward, at least you don’t end up being “that person who always asks me for my bra size”. I’d strongly suggest finding out your roomies’ hobbies and interests and sharing yours (with an eye to the cue for “okay, enough infodump now”), then asking them how that’s going, how classes are, being legitimately concerned for them if they share part of their personal lives. If they want to talk gender and peg you as a safe person to do that with, they’ll initiate. As missilentmurmur says, one way to do that is to talk about your own struggles, and either let them initiate or perform basic sympathy, just as they’re comfortable with. Another would be to check in on how they’re doing and if they’re experiencing any hardship when stuff like the recent alt right fash riots go down. Make sure you’re friendly enough by that point if you can.
A lot of what I am bringing up is from back when I was in undergrad, since that was the last time I was living in a very social situation. I am now over 10 years past that time period. To be frank, large group social situations are not my cup of tea due to all I have to remember to be polite and adequately sociable. It is quite stressful for me and I never feel like I handle it right whenever I do speak. It isn’t unusual for me to be very quiet in situations like that. It is why I prefer written chats online vs meeting anyone in person. The stakes aren’t as high if I make an absolute idiot of myself. Asking these questions online is a way for me to learn the boundaries and see if it is possible for me to stay within them when I have to take the time to write something out. People that comment under comics are some of the most friendly and helpful people that I have ever chatted with. It makes it easier to ask things about how to improve that would end up being too stressful to ask in person. I really do appreciate the help, even if I do feel like I am being burdensome.
Not wanting to detract from this discussion, but I have to ask: that cue for “okay, enough infodump now”… what is that cue?
One of the reasons I don’t talk to people much is that, once I’m committed to a conversation, I never even know when is too soon or too late to stop.
Fun thing is, it differs depending on the person! So it’s really hard to read! But personally I’d ask the other person about their interests, first, and see how much detail they go into. Then I’d try to vaguely match the depth and timescale they used, when they ask about mine in return. Things like seeing them get more fidgety or looking away more often partway through an explanation are a cue to me to wrap up fast with broad strokes. Or at least to break the flow of info with more follow-up questions to hand the conversation back to them instead, such as “do you like TOPIC, too?” or even “wanna watch / play it sometime and see what you think?”
Getting excited or nervous doesn’t help either. I also run into situations where I am having a fun conversation with one person but someone else gets upset at me later for one reason or another. One case was where I was talking to someone my age who was a blacksmith about swords and was accused of flirting with him later. My best guess is that they couldn’t believe that a girl was interested in swords and metallurgy, but I still don’t understand the issue even if I was flirting (I
wasn’t), since he wasn’t even in a relationship at the time.
As for looking away from the person as a cue that they are disinterested, I am absolutely horrible about getting distracted by something moving within my field of view. It isn’t that I am not listening, but that my brain is constantly dealing with “what’s that!?!” in the background. It is great for spotting things out in the field, but absolutely horrible for conversations. I do wish that my brain would just turn it down a notch sometimes. In any case, how distracted someone can be can really depend on the environment and the situation. A noisy and busy party is going to be a lot more distracting than a one on one in someone’s living room (provided there isn’t stuff like the tv playing). That is why I do the best one on one and the absolute worst at large parties, as one is easier to gauge the reactions than the other.
Gonna add on, what does the person know about you? Have you shown that you are accepting of trans people and posses at least Trans 101 levels of knowledge?
I might be open to talking about some of my experiences as a trans person to an acquaintance– not much about body stuff unless I’m in a specifically queer space, but bits of that and more other experiences. But that’s if I have reason to believe the person is well-intentioned and has put in some effort. I don’t want to open up to someone if they’re just going to cut me off to talk about how hard it is to get someone’s pronouns right.
I have accidentally called someone using a female pronoun online when I know that they use “they/them”. I always feel really bad afterwards, but it is more that in a rush my brain defaults to she/her for a feminine looking name rather than they/their. My brain has not yet learned that it is not the time to be a space cadet and forget important information like that while I am trying to respond to someone in a quickly moving chat. I do wonder if English had a gender neutral 3rd person pronoun (other than it, which is mainly for objects, ideas, etc) if it would be easier to not make a mistake.
What Yumi’s trying to say is that you need to keep signalling that you’re safe in subtle, quiet ways. Don’t overwhelm anyone or keep bringing up sensitive subjects. But also don’t just ignore it if you see someone else being transphobic. If you demonstrate legitimate goodwill and understanding it can go a long way. If you do misgender someone (especially “the better way” like this, not that there really is one) then apologise straight away, tell them you’ll do better. They’ll likely not ask more as the real proof of that is doing better. But if they do ask specifically why you’re struggling you can tell them you’re ND and your brain is firing on an extra cylinder in the wrong direction sometimes. (How it feels to me!) Still, finding ways to reinforce pronouns and names and facts is incredibly important for us, more than usual, for exactly that reason. If you find it hard in general but always manage for your trans friends, that itself shows care.
A quick apology because I didn’t proof-read that, Yumi, I’m sorry, I think you were absolutely perfect in what you wrote and it wouldn’t be my place to amend it anyway. I just felt that Kimi didn’t quite understand the inferences you made. They replied immediately about pronouns to you, when AFAIK you were saying “it takes demonstrating basic awareness” including knowing not to complain or over-apologise after you do mess up pronouns (and yes, they gotta learn that somewhere, but ideally from the internet or closer trans friends rather than new people who don’t trust them yet!). The most important part I saw for them to understand is instead to give ppl “reason to believe the person is well-intentioned and has put in some effort”.
Never ask anyone anything. If they volunteer information in any way, refuse it. Stop listening. It’s none of your business, even if they’re okay with you knowing. You will be punished and they will hate you for learning. You’re supposed to Just Know™, otherwise you’re a creep. Don’t look it up online either, because if someone posted about it, you’re being parasocial by reading it and they were probably coerced into sharing to begin with. Don’t encourage that kind of mistreatment. You wanna be a good ally, you keep your eyes and ears to yourself.
Or maybe none of that is true, idk.
Yeah, no. I can’t tell to what degree this is comedy, or sarcasm, and to what it’s bitterness; but it’s not helping Kimi, that’s for sure. And I believe we were debating a few pages ago whether Mary was even dropping TERF rhetoric to begin with, so I’m hopeful my own experience and friendships are relevant here. It’s possible to learn by inference, and pick up things from context or research them later, YES, even for autistic and other ND people. Friends who do trust you and who you’ve stuck by through their own self-revelations are more likely to call you in than call you out, but the main thing to remember is, you’re talking to people about specifically what they’re oppressed in society for. If you don’t share that oppression then you gotta be delicate. If you don’t know being delicate, depending on how close a friend you’re speaking with, either leave it be unless they bring it up (a good idea in any case to not constantly trigger somebody), or outright apologise for and say that you’re struggling with how best to be supportive and please give pointers. Definitely don’t ignore what’s shared with you directly – that’s the easiest, most helpful advice you’ll get.
“but it’s not helping Kimi, that’s for sure”
tbh I don’t think they were trying to.
Tfw u say some weird shit & ppl try 2 interpret it as advice
I mean. To be fair to Kelibath, you were replying to someone specifically requesting advice.
That hardly seems relevant. 👀
It is, though. If you were replying to a jokey thread the entire way through, I’m situationally aware enough to have rolled my eyes and carried on! As it was I did say I didn’t know exactly how to take the comment.. but mistakes happen, sorry this irked.
Thanks ^^’
I mean, I agree… I just think that when a self-described ND person posts under a comic about being supportive to trans people, asking how to be more supportive to and less awkward around trans people, posting weird sarcastic train of thought stuff isn’t necessarily a great idea. They just said they don’t read cues well, let’s not accidentally misinform them or make them unwelcome.
(I’ve no idea if Taffy was doing that deliberately, and definitely not suggesting anybody else is, just saying, maybe they’re posting here in lieu of doing the exact thing we’re all worried Joyce might still do next strip)
One solution is to blurt out how you have many questions but you realize they’re probably inappropriate and you’re too anxious to think clearly and you’ll just take what you’re being told at face value and research stuff for yourself later.
Joyce has come far just since her last encounter with a new type of queer person. Or maybe she’s just decided to be anxious about making her anxieties other people’s problems.
The really suave option, what I’ve determined after thinking about it for 32 hours since the end of yesterday’s strip, would be going “Carla, hey, Mary was gossiping about you, in case you want to throw a pie in her face or something.”
This leaves it up to Carla if she wants to involve herself in what she would correctly estimate the topic to be, and shifts the blame to Mary for any gross ideas Joyce might have recieved. (And really that is Mary’s fault for talking about a person behind their back.)
Do you have a relationship with this person outside of asking them invasive personal questions because if you don’t you shouldn’t ask them invasive personal questions. If you do you don’t need the internet’s advice, you just need to understand the relationship that you are in with them.
If you have general questions, go to a question-answer space where people volunteer their time to answer questions!
I know there used to be a facebook trans education group but it broke up. Right now the only group I know about is https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/
Thanks. That is some helpful information to know and look through.
This! Bruno and Lavender have fantastic advice.
Plays “Anxiety (Get Nervous)” on hacked Muzak.
Is Joyce checking out her rack?
Ayup.
Yup. Something she’s done in the past, to an extent, given one of the past strips where I think she mentioned something to Dorothy about noticing Carla had “gotten bigger” and Dorothy assuming it was about the skates, and not probably Joyce noticing HRT changes or the like.
“my eyes are up here”
“Oh, I know that, but they aren’t what I’m looking at.”
I actually laughed out loud at that one. Yes, I can see Joyce saying that.
Yup. And a very nice rack it is.
I would criticize Joyce for staring at Carla’s crotch, but I guess that’s the only way to read the speech bubble.
Looks to me more like boobs-level, not crotch-level.
It *really* hasn’t helped Joyce for Mary to constantly talk about penises, when that’s the last thing she really needs to know or wonder about on anyone bar a potential sex partner. Not to mention Carla’s family were rich and supportive. I’m fairly sure the university roomed her in the girls’ dorm because she passed whatever gatekeeping they have around reassignment surgery.
(Not that they shouldn’t have anyway! But we’ve seen students in AGAB dorms who are clearly transitioning out of them.)
Have we? It’s super possible that I forgot, but to my knowledge the confirmed trans characters are Malaya (nonbinary), Booster (nonbinary), and Carla (trans woman). I don’t think there’s a nonbinary dorm, so I don’t know that they could be transitioning out of their AGAB dorms (yet).
If I forgot a trans character please lemme know, I want to unforget them!
There’s a transmasc character named Zaph in Jennifer and Lucy’s hall.
Oh neat! I didn’t remember him but I’ve peeked back in the tags and he for sure counts for what Kelibath was saying, ty so much!
Yep! It was Zaph I was primarily thinking of, forgot his name! But I’m not sure whether Booster actually preferred the male wing or whether it’s just where they wound up due to bureaucracy. (The way they mentioned “rooming with the wrong amniotic sac” mildly hinted to me that they’d be comfortable in either.)
I read these as the university roomed her in the girls wing because of lawyers.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/laws/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/ding/
I think that’s referring to some more serious laws than just college rooming decisions, though obviously knowing the Ruttens had such lawyers at their disposal might have influenced the school to cooperate.
The elevator strip also implies the case was some time ago, when Carla was smaller
I think she’s making a sincere effort NOT to stare at her crotch, and its on her mind because of the prior conversation with dorothy.
But
its resulted in her looking straight across at her chest, which brings to mind similar questions she has.
You can’t beat intrusive (or at least anxiety-inducing, recurring) thoughts by thinking “I SHOULDN’T”. Usually explained with a “OK NOW WHATEVER IT TAKES? DON’T THINK OF A PINK ELEPHANT ON PARADE! KINDA DRUNK TOO? HOLY SHIT IT’S LAUGHING??”
i may have added some sensorial/emotional texture to the original saying, but most people would’ve gotten at least a reaction, and thought of it however briefly. (The trick to STOP being stuck in it is to jangle the keys of something equally shiny and distracting far away from that original disruptive thought.)
I don’t think Joyce means to be non-accepting, or rude. She’s just #Stuck considering something she never had before. But I trust in her positive development as a character!
Carla showing up right as Mary does the reveal about her probably also doesn’t help with the panic and the brain short circuiting. Not saying that she would react better given a day’s grace to process the new unexpected information, but it might have been more of a fighting chance.
Quick Joyce, go ask Dorothy for guidance.
At least this isn’t titled “secret weanus?”
someone’s gonna need a minute. Or ten. in that shower
Curiousity, thy name is Joyce.
Bless her heart, she is trying.
Not the blatant boob-stare @_@
I didn’t get into it yesterday, but I’ve really despised Joyce for a long long time in this comic (not a whole lot to get into it, fundies rub me the wrong way), yesterday was the first time she did a thing that cracked that shell for me a bit and yes I know some will be like “she has been accepting of Becky” but I counter with Becky is her friend, and she did struggle with it still, Carla she JUST found out is trans and is making an effort (a flawed one if this page is any tell, but an effort) ~<3
She’s not a fundie though, she’s someone who was raised in that because children don’t have a choice about their environment and within months of being on her own has completely left that religion.
This isn’t to say you can’t dislike Joyce or anything, but she’s not someone who has routinely practiced that kind of nonsense as a personal choice of her own. She wasn’t exposed to anything outside of it until recently.
Also, she found out Booster is trans and was immediately accepting of them (again, if a bit flawed and weird about terminology at first) but her first reaction was “I have questions that I will not make your problem” (paraphrased).
Ignorance is also a thing she could be dealing with too. It is hard to look up more information about a problem you didn’t even know existed. It is easy to assume that everyone’s situation is just like you if you have never experienced something different (as in everyone is being homeschooled in the same culture and environment). If you were always brought up that the colors were red, orange, yellow, green, purple, black and white, how would you know to look up information about blue or brown?
For sure.
I was referring to her attitude and comments in the early years of the comic, where she definitely displayed a lot of that “God is good” and “different is bad” mentality, I’m super glad she’s moving away from it, but it was there. ~<3
Oh for sure, I mean that’s been Joyce’s character arc from the beginning. That stuff was intended to be abrasive and off-putting; other characters commented as much. It seems odd to me to comment on it as a primary reason for “despising” a character when the thing you dislike about them is something you were 100% not meant to enjoy in the first place? If that makes sense? But I do get it, that stuff is obnoxious and it sounds like this is a deep-seated personal pet peeve. I’m glad Joyce is reaching a level where she doesn’t bother you as much as before.
OH she’s definitely a fundie, just one in a prolonged de-conversion process.
Thats the whole comic.
This has taken a decade plus out comic but incomic is supper compressed to a very narrow time slice. Joyce is experiencing years of social deconversion in months.
Plus she made Jesus her hyperfocus so its extra hard for her to tease out what viewpoints where from herself or background. Dorothy has been trying to coax her not to become a fundie Atheist.
Willis was raised fundie, I believe. So I always assumed Joyce and her history was a self-insert.
Correct. In the about section of the comic Willis states that Joyce is supposed to be at least at least semi-autobiographical to his own journey out of fundie-land.
every Willis comic seems to have a main self-insert. ( sometimes Multiple. )
Danny-roomies
Walky-walky ( David the guy who became the Cheese)
shortpacked – Ethan . ( and willis as himself in cons)
Joyce – DOA. also Amber social anxiety, and everyones love of Robots
You are allowed your feelings.
But Joyce has had a Good Heart from the beginning. Yes Becky cracked it, but so did her Fundie community. and Dorothy. and Ryan “the Preachers son”.
She immediately backtracked on Ethan and Got him to come out.
I think Trans ppl werent on her radar as existing until her Mother accused her. Joyce says stupid awful things unknowingly, and then learns feels guilty and backtracks. Thats the main comic.
People do grow from their relationships and personal interactions ( or some of us do ). Some ppl dont need that ( but still absorb tons of unconscious bias) and some ppl dont even benefit from meeting diverse ppl.
Dunno what you mean, Carla, Joyce is smooth like butter.
You’re doing okay, Joyce. Stay on brand.
… Wholesome…?
This is like the “with sunglasses no one can tell what you’re looking at” meme without the sunglasses >.<
I never noticed how tall Carla is until she stood next to Joyce.
How much do her rollerskates add to her height?
Hmm, good point.
Enough to obfuscate her real height.
Couple inches, tops. Wheels ain’t that big.
Depending on the type of wheels it’s somewhere between 2.5 and 6 inches (including the wheels and the rig holding them in place)
dont deny her Wheels, she’ll come in wheeling on stilts.
Enough, but she’s tall without them.
The skates are a neat choice for Carla, because they both emphasize her height, making it more likely someone will notice and maybe question, but also provide a built in excuse if someone does.
I mean, she does like being the center of attention, so that’s a good way of doing it.
Sure, but it’s not that simple. She likes people focusing on her for the weird annoying things she does, not for being trans.
That’s why “She’s so tall, but that’s just the skates” works to deflect from “She’s so tall, must be because she’s trans.”
Mayhaps but I’m 99% convinced she mainly wears the skates so she can be like a car, she already had em in Shortpacked.
Yes, Joyce, Carla is very pretty.
And sadly she is already taken.
Unless!
another red thread for the cork board poly chart
I think Carla gets that this is going to be a learning curve for Joyce. Not all of us are prepared to bask in the glory that is the best character of all time, Carla.
I think Carla has no idea what’s up here and came in on the end of the conversation.
Hope so, but she’s got a look in her eyes that suggests she’s been down this road before…
Its been a learning curve for the readership too. I remember when willis had to lock comments twice in a row over ppl being Mary to Carla
Yup. And I suspect (wishful thinking maybe) that Carla and Joyce are going to be a lot friendlier together soon. Carla doesn’t have any real friends that I know of and Joyce is someone that is going well out of her way to look past surface stuff and prejudices.
tbf she was staring at carla’s boobs before she knew, this isn’t much of a change
i think a Carla comic would be awesome. her childhood at Rutech parents, her enigineering skills, her court case. Some of her Freshman Year.
( I would be very surprised if Willis Never thought about this ! )
He probably has. But that would be a totally different story with different characters. And one of the main strengths of this comic are the character’s various personalities and the interactions with each other.
I will say this. When we vote for the bonus comic Carla is possibly the most popular choice.
I gotta say, “turned on by the thought of girldick” was not in the list of outcomes I thought this exchange might go, but from what I know of Joyce and seeing the way and direction she’s looking, that’s my interpretation of this page, hands down
For all we know Carla may not even have one?
Either way, it’s not her business what down there unless Carla wants to disclose (which she probably doesn’t)
She tall
This is one of the best pages ever in this comic. I hope Joyce and Carla interact a lot more in the future.