unless she loans me out

Transcript

Joe: This is PERFECT, actually. Now that "it" has been done, I no longer gotta worry that... that, you know... I'd-- I'd CHANGE you.
Joyce: Joe, I'm not DIFFERENT now. I'm not CHANGED.
Joyce: ...okay, that's a lie. It HAS. I AM transformed. But, like... the ADDENDS are new, but the SUM is the SAME. I'm STILL ME.
Joyce: Sex with Dorothy HAS changed me, but only by the "with DOROTHY" part. It wasn't the hanky panky. It was never that. You and I would be beautiful in a UNIQUE, UNREPLICATABLE way.
Joe: Would BE? Not would've BEEN?
Joyce: Just... just spitballing a grand, rhetorical maxim here. I am Dorothy's forever and ever and ever.

Addends
Posted on May 3, 2026 by David M Willis

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Tags: joe, joyce

159 thoughts on “Addends”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    The dumping stairs again, huh? Making this a habit?

  2. OttawaTom

    Well she has a very strong sense of infinities, without any real number theory taught to her.

    1. clif

      It seems she is sticking with the countable infinities.

  3. Sirksome

    I’m tentatively optimistic this will still end okay for both of them.

    1. Scribbles

      I must say I am loving the chaotic growth of Joyce, and while I have my own opinions on the relationship dynamics, I am also tentatively optimistic for them as well.

    2. Cbwroses

      Don’t trust tentative optimism

      1. clif

        Too late.

    3. Lysbeth

      Joyce dating them both eventually would be hilarious. Imagine the cattiness!

    4. Mravac Kid

      There was once upon a time thins thing called The Guild of Evil Cartoonists… don’t bother googling it, it’s impossible to find nowadays. :)

  4. Yumi

    Okay, but what if these become the undumping stairs and a polyam launch pad

    1. Thag Simmons

      Then things are gonna get real messy and I don’t think any of these dorks are going to have a good time

      1. MDP

        You don’t have to sell me on it any more, I’m already on board

      2. zee

        That’s exactly what I’m looking for here

    2. Li

      Right? I am so excited.
      .
      It helps if, like 99% of people who have so far said they hope this ends in polyamory, you’re absolutely on board for mess and heartbreak at least in the short to mid-term!
      .
      (I’d love to see them work through it and be happy together, but I’m fine with that taking years and years.)

      1. TrueVCU

        When you say “years and years”, theirs or ours?

        1. StevenT1711

          Years and years for us. Tomorrow afternoon for them

        2. DFWPestilence

          “Why not Both.”
          “Both. Both is good.”

        3. steamweed

          For them, rest of the semester. For us, until 2030.

        4. Li

          Por que no los dos.

        5. Leadsynth

          Willis has said that he had no intention of the comic running longer than freshman year. I wonder what’ll happen.

        6. Tan

          There’s roughly 6 months left in the in-universe academic year. Each day (not counting timeskips) takes roughly 3 real-world months. That’s potentially up to 45 real world years. I think it’s safe to say that anything Willis claims regarding the state of the comic more than a decade from now should be treated as a best-guess prediction, subject to change. (see, for example, “no one will die in Dumbing of Age”)

          .

          Also pretty sure the never getting past freshman year comment was made prior to (plans for) the big 3 month timeskip and therefore more a reflection of human life expectancy than a specific planned endpoint

        7. Li

          Like Tan said.
          .
          Also, if I were Willis, I would be so exhausted by how many people take a single flippant sentence from 15+ years ago as immutable truth. (Many such examples!)

      2. Everyl

        Yeah, that’s basically where I am, too. I want to see them happy and I’d love to see a *good* depiction of polyamory in media some time. DoA would be a great place for it!

        That being said, I understand that this is an ongoing dramedy webcomic that will run for an indefinite period. Nothing good will ever be easy and no relationship is “final” until the comic is no longer in production, which I’m hoping will not be any time soon. So I’m willing to sit back and watch the cast continue pursuing and screwing up their dreams until such time as Willis is in a position to write an epilogue.

        Hopefully a Soggy-free epilogue. That one’s already been used.

        1. clif

          It’s a basic rule of the universe. In total, sogginess always increases. Soggy always wins in the end.

          Or maybe that was entropy. Doesn’t matter, the principle is the same.

    3. Needfuldoer

      I don’t think Dorothy’s ready for that.

      1. Sirksome

        I do think Dorothy gets overlooked in these polyamory discussions. Joyce has not mentioned poly to her even once and Dorothy showing signs of jealousy was a catalyst that started the route to her and Joyce dating. That and adding Joe’s not very great history with Dorothy and I think this idea is maybe counting chickens before they hatch. I don’t know how she gets to a place she’s okay sharing Joyce right now. That seems slightly out of character for Dorothy without some work. If anyone remembers moments Dorothy hinted at being okay with polyamory please inform me.

        1. Yumi

          Personally, my long stated hope for how a poly angle develops is pretty much exactly that– Joe is on board, Joyce gets on board, Dorothy? Not so much on board. But if there’s a choice between being with Dorothy or being in a non-monogamous without Dorothy, Joyce would choose Dorothy. But if Dorothy felt her choices were poly relationship with Joyce where Joyce is also dating Joe or no relationship with Joyce, she might also choose Joyce. It also might be something that impacts their relationship going forward, even if they talk about it now and decide they want to be in a monogamous relationship.
          I would love to get to some main character poly, but I find the idea of the whole messy exploration of relationship dynamics to be really exciting, too.

        2. thejeff

          I don’t think she really gets overlooked so much as people are still arguing that Joyce has rejected the idea. Only if Joyce admits she’s interested does the question of how to bring it up to Dorothy and whether she’ll be okay with it come up.

        3. Needfuldoer

          Prediction: Joyce still wants to be with Joe, so she says she wants to be with both of them. She’s too afraid to tell Dorothy about it so she keeps her continued relationship with Joe a secret, and she’s also too afraid to tell Joe that Dorothy isn’t on board so she dodges that question every time it comes up. Joe and Dorothy find out the truth, and Dorothy crashout is back on the menu. Dorothy berates Joyce for cheating on her while Joe’s just standing there like ಠ_ಠ

        4. Astariel

          I think that Dorothy might agree to poly, but not because she’s actually comfortable with it. It would be due to a combination of guilt over cheating and her ongoing desire to be less of a moderate, like how one of her motivations for doing laundry with Joyce was to show Roz she could be sex-positive.

  5. Dot

    Yessss… hahaha… YES!!!!!

    1. Rosicrucian

      The mess is here.

      It is already breaching containment.

      1. steamweed

        Amber is getting her way. Her machinations are fruitioning to coming.

  6. QueenofSodor

    Panel 2 Joyce is trulya woman of culture.

  7. IntangibleMatter

    Re: Alt text
    “Loans me out” implies alienation of ownership from use and creates a private property dynamic which stratifies class relationship to Joyce access. Because of this, I posit an alternate framework through which I am not loaned but are instead redistributed to the agrarian masses for communal seeding and maintenance.

    (Yes this is from a Tumblr post that I couldn’t find but it’s what it reminded me of)

    1. clif

      Was this combined with the violent dismantling of the existing class structure, as your access was taken from landlords, local bullies, and elite groups without compensation, with the explicit goal of shifting your intimate moments to agricultural producers’ cooperatives and later massive “people’s communes” to maximize resource management and the benefits of your labors?

      1. clif

        Asking for a friend.

  8. Grimey

    Freudian slip but don’t worry, it’ll just be the tip.

  9. Bill Erak

    The dumping stairs forever strike again…

  10. Astariel

    I really like this self-confidence and self-awareness in Joyce. It’s a good look for her.

  11. Wack'd

    y’all have no idea how hard it was for me to keep my lips zipped through a thousand “well i guess this is all the closure we’re getting” comments yesterday

    1. Li

      I for one am proud of you.

    2. SunflowerBanjo

      Is this “more closure” to you?? I genuinely don’t see how this leaves us in a more thoughts-and-feelings-all-hashed-out position than the last strip did. What additional closure are we getting here?

      1. clif

        We now know that there is hope for Joe if he can only convince Dorothy to loan her out.

      2. Li

        Bit of a strange reaction to Wack’d’s comment?
        .
        The point is that yesterday was NOT closure, because it was not the end. Nor is this likely to be the end.

        1. Wack'd

          yeah, this

    3. zee

      I knew for a fact yesterday wasn’t the end (and not just because of the blurred Patreon preview). Nothing about yesterday read as final, or even really break up words to me

    4. RedCat

      I’ll say it today if it gets us more.

    5. Meadow

      Don’t you know? Every single comic page is the last, and if it isn’t a satisfying conclusion to the story it must be an issue of the writing

  12. AK

    We are playing the hierarchical polyamory game! I mean. We aren’t yet, but like. It would be crazy at this point if we didn’t. I look forward to the negotiation of that. Complicated thing to negotiate. Less complicated if everyone knows where they stand in the hierarchy and is cool with it, which. At least the first part of that will be true. But I am genuinely curious how Dorothy reacts to this situation. And also how Walky does. And also how everyone involved navigates the relevant conversations because they will be many and weird. Excited for the weird.

  13. Icalasari

    Thank you Joyce for cutting that path off
    …Though it does mean less in universe drama and thus less popcorn :<

    1. Rosicrucian

      She hasn’t cut it off quite so thoroughly as she thinks she has.

      1. clif

        She specifically disclaims “would have been” in favor of a grand rhetorical maxim.

        1. eh, whatever

          She’s disclaiming “yes” in favor of “I didn’t say anything”, not in favor of “no”.

        2. clif

          Technically, she is disclaiming both in favor of “I didn’t say anything.” Which is certainly not cutting things off.

  14. Sirksome

    Only 3 “and evers”…..pffft. It won’t last.

  15. jjazz

    Watching teens stumble through growing up is so poignant but this is a rewarding moment. This is honest conversation. No matter where I stand on the particulars, I love this.

  16. Mitzi B.

    DUMP HIM ALREADY!

    1. Thag Simmons

      This might be the ideal outcome. Make it clean and quick and relatively painless. The part of me that wants good things for these characters is rooting for that.

      But of course there is also the part of me that’s rooting for things to get fucked up forever

      1. Mitzi B.

        The funniest ending would be Dorothy showing up to yell “SHE’S MINE NOW, I WIN YOU LOSE!” and yoinking Joyce offscreen.

        1. Sarah Lea

          Upvote. ALL the upvotes.

    2. Folus

      Counterpoint: Joe could stand to take a lesson from Dina and just keep walking.

      He’s kinda the one putting himself in these situations (figuratively speaking..). If he didn’t want to be strung along, he could draw the line himself.

      (which is such a bizarre sentence to say, since Willis is the one putting him in these situations.. and is also the one drawing the lines)

      1. Thing 2

        Counter counter point: He could do whatever the fuck he likes, and that might be exactly what he is currently doing.

        1. thejeff

          Sure, but “whatever he likes” might not be what’s good for him. Might be unhealthy and driven by his own self-loathing. He might be happier walking away than tying himself to being second place for Joyce.

        2. Sirksome

          @thejeff I’d actually be fine with this Joe second place poly hierarchy potential dynamic as long as he’s also free to date others. No saying that’s what he wants but he should at least have that opportunity and frankly so should Dorothy.

        3. thejeff

          To be honest, I’m fine with the poly thing if Joyce is actually into it. I’m uncomfortable with Joe’s motives, since I think they’re rooted in his own lack of self worth. I think he’s seeing himself as deservingly less important to Joyce because of his past issues. “He doesn’t get to be jealous”.
          That’s not a good start to a poly attempt.
          I don’t think dating others plays into it.

        4. Sirksome

          @thejeff The thing is I agree with you. I just don’t think Joe’s self worth issues are solved with Joyce. If this conversation is proving anything it’s that she doesn’t recognize how poorly he thinks of himself. That his fears of “changing” her are actually him believing he corrupts or ruins people. I think Joyce is so in her own world of self discovery that she doesn’t see what eats at Joe and I think Joe can only validate himself outside of his relationship with Joyce. That’s why I’d want him dating other people or even just hanging with other people as friends like Sarah or Dina who do recognize his feelings better. Just saying dating other people was a little reductive of me though.

  17. cryoverkiltmilk

    Using the location tag for violence I see

  18. Li

    Peepin’ at that alt text.
    .
    Poly stocks on the rise… 👀

  19. Rosicrucian

    We’d certainly had hints before, but this strip definitely confirms that Joyce has taken her previous destined MRS degree in which she meets the man of her dreams and is properly wifed up with her fated soulmate and just… transferred all that to Dorothy.

    Which makes sense. It was a load bearing part of her “Roomies!” characterization that took her a long time to shed in that universe.

    Joe is probably one of the few people who can talk frankly with her on this front, considering he’s the one who helped her through her parents’ divorce, as soon as Joyce was able to articulate that her parents could divorce.

    1. Corey C.

      Dorothy checked off every box in Joyce’s Romance Novel brain. On paper it’s the PERFECT romance, and she’s retroactively altered her memories so there’s been no other person in the history of the planet that she’s EVER had eyes for.

      On paper there is no one else… but in practice, when Joe’s around…

      This gets a lot more complicated than it should, especially compared to how simple it was to get Dorothy to break up with Walky full stop, no regrets.

      1. Tech

        Don’t forget there’s also Tristain (first crush she deeply regrets after finding out where he ended up) and Jacob (other guy she had amazing chemistry with, then fake dated for a half-hour and fucked up *his* lovelife)

        1. Corey C.

          There’s also Ethan, whom she tried to “convert” into being straight.

          But I bet if you ask Joyce about those boys she’ll deny ever liking them at all as her one and only has been Dorothy since the day she was born,

  20. Pocky

    CLOSER TO THE POLY SHIP WE ARE

    1. Bryy

      I feel like the other shoe is not telling Dotty.

      1. thejeff

        Closer to cheating on Dorothy with Joe we are.

      2. Li

        Well, yes! But this is still a step in the direction.

  21. Newlland(Henryvolt)

    Nothing is set in stone and no one should ever get their hopes up ever, those are the things I’ve definitely learned around here.

    1. Theozilla

      Yeah, I still very uncertain. I just hope the next strip isn’t cutting away to a new scene.

  22. Palin

    Really can’t tell if it’s an “eyes closed hands spread” in the last pannel… Or a “hands spread tiny panic eyes looking away” because I could cotton both out of Joyce

    1. palmsmith

      I *think* it’s an expression of “yeah idk about that – I didn’t phrase it like that on purpose – but please understand the one priority I am very very clear on which I think is extremely cute & which I am thus sharing in a slightly silly tone of voice”. The line in her right eye (on your left) is way too long to give the impression of panic eyes by being a pupil, in my opinion.

  23. Theozilla

    I am still genuinely confused if that last panel meant to be closure (i.e. is Joyce shooting down Joe’s previous poly/ethical non-monogamy offer) or not? Because the previous panel’s Freudian slip combined with the alt-text commentary is making me really unsure on the whole. Either way, I really hope tomorrow’s strip isn’t cutting away to a new scene.

    1. Corey C.

      I think consciously Joyce is finally dumping Joe once and for all but subconsciously she wants Joe just as much as she wants Dorothy. I’m kind of expecting Dotty to swoop in and guide Joyce away from Joe, making her choice crystal clear, but Joyce is looking… well, not miserable, but wistful.

      1. Ornathe

        I think wistful is definitely the right word here. She’s trying to close things off, but being with Dorothy doesn’t mean she didn’t also very much like being with Joe, and I think she’s struggling with the breakup not being something as emotionally clean-cut as “we’re over because I don’t want to date you anymore”. It’s not that she doesn’t necessarily want to, it’s that she’s choosing someone else over him despite not feeling negatively about him in any way. I understand her waffling really well, honestly, even though it’d obvioulsy be better for them if she was able to sort those feelings out faster. She’s still very wistful about the fact that she realises she’d also probably be some version of happy if she was with Joe, just not a version she’s willing to choose over being with Dorothy, and I don’t think the poly option is really an option to her, maybe because she knows Dorothy would likely not want that at all. She’s allowed to have complicated feelings about ending a pretty nice relationship for another one, even if it’s for one that feels even more right for her.

  24. Reltzik

    So… she’s Dorothy’s forever… but….
    ….
    mrrrph

    Okay, I was trying to wordplay her former religion-indoctrinated fears by turning poly into a silly communism metaphor and it’s not working.

    1. Rimwalker55

      Maybe Joe can change his name to “Man of Steel” like Stalin?
      He’ll have my vote (so to speak).

      1. eh, whatever

        99.89% of your vote!

  25. Steamweed

    If the loaning out doesn’t happen (either here, or Slipshine, or Other Patreon, or Other Other Patreon), then the riots will commence.

    1. clif

      I’m still rioting over Mike’s death.

      1. clif

        Or alleged death, as the case may be.

  26. Corey C.

    Ugghhh… the last panel finally made it clear that Joyce and Joe are donezo, but that hover text… WHYYY does it insinuate that Joyce is leaving the option of a hookup open? Dotty is HYPER protective over Joyce! She’d NEVER let Joe have her.

    Joe should just suck it up, say “Understood. I hope you two are happy together always,” and then leave Joyce for good instead of desperately try to find a hope spot when there is none.

    1. zee

      Because nothing is donezo yet~~~

    2. eh, whatever

      the last panel finally made it clear
       
      No.
       
      You’re overinterpreting what people actually say.

      1. Corey C.

        “I am Dorothy’s forever and ever and ever and ever” sounds like a clear message to me that she made her choice and Joe isn’t it. I don’t see how that statement could be interpreted any other way.

        1. thejeff

          Only if a choice is required. She’s definitely not giving up Dorothy. That’s been clear since before Joe made his poly offer.

        2. Li

          I think you are confusing what Joe “should” do with what you, personally, want Joe to do, and your own top-level comment admits that the alt text is extremely suggestive, so yeah, people are taking it to suggest stuff.

        3. Li

          Like, DO you really not see how Joyce’s statement could be interpreted any other way, or are you just extremely reluctant to consider that maybe the reason “why” the alt text says otherwise, and indeed why poly was raised as a possibility at all months ago, is because the strip is going to have Joyce and Joe and Dorothy try a thing here.
          .
          The alt text literally exists to help clarify that Joyce’s “definitive” declaration hinges on assumptions she is making about, as thejeff put it, NEEDING to make a choice. The door is still open because it’s possible she won’t have to choose and will be able to have two partners.
          .
          I know you don’t like that idea — you’ve made it extremely clear — but it is still what the author is trying to tell you.

        4. clif

          Li, after first completely agreeing with what you’ve said, I fell compelled to point out that the function of the alt-text is usually humorous commentary on the strip and the fact that Willis is joking with us about the possibility makes it somewhat less likely that that’s the direction the story is actually going.

        5. Li

          @clif: I mean, it’s not always hinting at future story developments, but nor is it always just a joke! And in this case it definitely underlines an important aspect of Joyce’s “definitive” statement.
          .
          Which is that Joyce considering herself Dorothy’s “forever and ever” is only incompatible with her and Joe still having a future here if Dorothy doesn’t consent to share.
          .
          And this is also at least the third time that Joyce has said something that indicates she still wants to be with Joe, and at least the second time that she’s followed that up with a somewhat awkward “but obviously I can’t do that”. Crucially: can’t, not doesn’t want to.
          .
          (The other time that immediately springs to mind is, of course, this: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/dateboth/ )
          .
          ETA: far be it for me to not acknowledge that some folks seem very certain that “Dorothy won’t consent to share” is a forehone conclusion, but I disagree with their certainty. Dorothy’s “possessiveness” so far has seemed entirely rooted in her denial and her former regretful certainty that she and Joyce could never be together. We’ve yet to actually see whether or not she will be possessive now that she has the reassurance of Joyce’s romantic affection. Personally, I think it’ll be a bit fraught, but entirely overcomeable. Most importantly: we don’t know anything yet, except that it would be really weird at this point for Willis not to explore polyamory within the main cast, now that they’ve dropped all these breadcrumbs. Chekov’s polyamory, if you will.

        6. Li

          Further edit: I see my mistake, I said “literally”, heh. I was definitely being somewhat hyperbolic, but everything I said about “why” today’s alt text says what it says is because Corey C’s top-comment asked why the alt text “insinuates that Joyce is leaving the option open”.
          .
          And the answer to that question is definitely: “because, in this case, Willis wanted that insinuation to be made.” Which is also why Joe didn’t “just suck it up” and “leave Joyce for good”.
          .
          IDK, it just felt, reading Corey C’s comments, like they were treating those things as mistakes rather than deliberate choices being made by the author, albeit choices they don’t like.

  27. palmsmith

    Joyce independently discovered a very important polyamory maxim, which is that every relationship is unique bc of who it’s with! Loving this for her – she’s Dorothy’s forever and ever and ever, and the only ways that “ruins” or “cheapens” her really nice supportive relationship w Joe are:
    1) steric hindrances – u can’t perfectly multiplex your time for two significant others, so there’s always Changes in the shape of both relationships as a result of them overlapping in time
    2) girlypop needs to learn the social skills of “people aren’t automatically privy to your feelings and will thus make their own assumptions about yr intentions if you don’t talk shit out w them” and “even tho people are entitled to their own feelings for which you are not *ultimately* responsible, shit does work out better for everyone if you put *some* proactive effort into communication & compromise & guessing how your phrasing of present & past statements might be received”

  28. anon

    well, at least they’re finally having a convo.

    and rip qc

    1. Thing 2

      I thought it was cos we were having nationwide internet outages in NZ, but turned out to be worse that that for QC. Looking forward to the resurrection!

  29. Ruby/AGV

    “So you’re telling me there’s a chance”

  30. redcaela

    However this ends, it’s giving hilarious and dramatic slowburn. So… circle back in 1-6 years? Joyce is a centimetre nearer to the ‘apolycalypse’ ship than she was a day ago, but she’s not all the way there yet.

    This dynamic is still so cute. I’m greedy and just want both.

  31. David Welbourn

    Premature re-Joeyce-ing.

  32. Zamperla

    Honestly that’s a lovely way tor joyce to put it. It woulda been different with Joe, because he’s different. But that’s all.

    As for whats next…. well. one way or another, they’ll stay important to each other. I like that.

    1. The Queer Agenda [frog memes]

      They’re talking, and it’s nice. I like that for them, too. Whatever they end up being to each other, I hope they can still have this sort of intimacy.

  33. Thing 2

    It’s windy out there. And the winds of change are blowing. And things are being blown all whichways. But they are both still there. Nice metaphors. Where are the petit-fours?

    1. Miri

      And it’s doing awesome things to Joyce’s hair!

  34. Owlmirror

    Joe is in a superposition state of dumped and undumped. The relationship is in a superposition of dead and alive.
     
    Joyce will either box him out or box him in. . .
     
    The wave function will collapse if Joyce opens . . .

    1. Rimwalker55

      It should be pointed out that under particle/wave duality the rays can pass two through two openings simultaneously, but I’m afraid of getting Wack’d.

      (blindfold and cigarette, please.)

    2. clif

      It is a very strange religious belief that the wave function somehow supernaturally collapses, when all that is actually happening is that the state of the observer is becoming entangled with the state of the Joyce.

      1. Owlmirror

        That’s what she said . . .
        Also:
        https://dresdencodak.com/2006/02/13/trouble-in-memphis/

  35. zee

    Haha! Fuckin knew there was nothing final about yesterday’s strip! Fuck a true breakup, chekovs poly rears its ugly head again!!! Forget your watsonian reasoning, it wouldn’t be brought up if it were to be totally irrelevant

    1. clif

      I’ll take my Jekyllian mess please, so don’t try to Hyde it.

  36. Dare

    I love it! Now also bring in Walky and the polycalypse can commence!

    1. clif

      But at this stage, can you bring in Walky without also bringing in Amber?

  37. Segnosaur

    Here is a question I find interesting…

    Why isn’t Joe walking Dina back? They came to class together. They worked together as lab partners (after Dina dud her swap). They seem to be returning to the dorm at ghe same time. You figurd they would have walked back together.

    Did Joe approach Joyce to walk back together and talk? Did Joyce approach Joe? Had Dina already left by then?

    1. Rimwalker55

      I think Dina and Becky are having an angry conversation. The conversation started with the Swap Yoink. That is, Dina is angry but wants Becky to speak. Her hand is on the door, but she doesn’t go through. Becky wants to speak but has a real problem starting with the “I’m sorry” she needs to say. They may not be successful this time but I have hopes.
      Joe and Joyce are just hanging back a little in a more productive chat.

  38. Anna

    Why are the options here “what we would be” or “what we would’ve been”? Joe & Joyce already had sex, by more or less any definition of sex that’s broader than “a penis must go into a vagina” (i.e. any definition of sex that also includes Joyce & Dorothy’s activities). So why is nobody talking about “what we were”?

    1. zee

      They both had specific hangups around piv sex. Joyce didn’t even register the hand stuff as sex until after the fact. So the feelings around that are still important. Besides, a lot of peoples unexamined ideas of what counts as sex is “phallus entering coochie/ass”. And these two did not spend their time examining what they think sex is until Becky slapped Joyce over the head with a lesbian reminder. Everything else is like, idk foreplay or something else to most people. I don’t even think Joe realizes that they have in fact had sex.

      1. Li

        I think before this strip you could’ve argued that MAYBE Joe realized they’d had sex, but his first panel dialogue really confirms that he still doesn’t think they did, imho?
        .
        He’s basically saying that he was nervous about being The One to “Take” Her Virginity, and at least claiming to be somewhat relieved that Dorothy “did it” instead.
        .
        Which! I am awarding myself a little piece of a cookie because months ago I know I commented to the effect that I thought Joe might be a bit relieved, on some level, if Dorothy “got there” first.
        .
        (I am under no illusions at all about this relief being, like, healthy. There is a very direct line between first-panel Joe’s dialogue here and his somewhat disastrous night with Liz. “I almost ruined myself forever,” she said. https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/ruined/ And Joe was afraid of winding up back there, but without the “almost”.)
        .
        But… yeah. None of this would work at all (to the limited extent that it does!) if Joe had spent this whole time thinking he and Joyce had already had sex.
        .
        TL;DR: I agree completely, and ALSO: a bunch of rambling about why I’m sure Joe doesn’t think what he and Joyce did “counts” either.

        1. Yumi

          And it’s interesting because what does he think that she and Dorothy did that “counts” while what Joyce and Joe did doesn’t “count”? Despite not being religious and not consciously buying into purity culture, it’s interesting (and realistic, imo) how Joe has still internalized these messages of not only that sex can “ruin” or fundamentally change someone, but also what specific sex acts can do so.

        2. thejeff

          For the same reasons that Joyce did and I don’t think those, while unexamined, were really as simple as PiV counts as sex and nothing else does.
          Joyce definitioned herself into thinking that laundry with Dorothy counted, but then when she actually had sex with Dorothy it was clear that was a whole other level.

        3. Yumi

          I’d also love to see some challenge to the idea that it even has to matter which was “first.” Within a short period of time, Joyce had interactions with both Joe and Dorothy that significantly contributed to the early development of her experience of sexuality. “First” doesn’t have to be most significant; “most significant” might not have even happened yet.

        4. Li

          @thejeff: I just wanna take this opportunity to reiterate something I said ages ago probably not even to you, but which I stand by:
          .
          I think it was important for Joyce that laundry room “counted” because it meant that she was already past a huge mental hurdle (and no longer a virgin).
          .
          Once she and Dorothy had a, well, slipshine, it stopped being an argument worth having for Joyce, because now she and Dorothy had DEFINITELY had sex, so whether or not the first time was in the laundry room became more of a quibble and less of an emotional-weight-bearing pillar.
          .
          @Yumi: agreed, it would be great to see that get some examination, both the note about Joe’s mental definitions and the note about Joyce learning to let go of the idea that the First Time must necessarily also be the Most Significant, or the one with her One True Love….. or the idea that she can only have one of those.

        5. thejeff

          @Li: I do agree it was important the laundry room counted for getting past the mental hurdle, but I think her post definitive sex attitude was different enough that it wasn’t just that she didn’t have to make the argument that it did count anymore, but that it was emotionally different – more significant, if not Most Significant.

    2. thejeff

      Even with Joyce’s revelation that by her new definition she’d had sex with and that she’d already had sex with Dorothy (doing laundry), she still thinks of the night with Dorothy as the first time that really transformed her into a sex-haver. The first going all the way, even if it didn’t involve a penis in a vagina.
      But really, she’s talking about “would be” not “were” because she hasn’t completely put that in the past.

    3. clif

      Because “what we were” implies past tense?

  39. Jay

    Only took nearly a year but we’ve made it!

  40. Mr D

    Shortpacked seems to be down.

  41. Alan in DC

    …or at least til sophomore year….

  42. jflb96

    *Play Lawrence Fishburne being extremely correct over the hacked muzak*

    Never thought I’d be this envious of Mike, but here we are

  43. thumb

    Well, I guess all of Joyce’s absolute declarations have panned out so far. Not a single one has been proven false.
    NOT A SINGLE ONE!

  44. Poppakatt

    The Polycule ™ is forming!

  45. JWK

    Breakup foreshadowed.

  46. Stephen Nedland

    Yes! Let that Joe/Joyce/Dorothy polyamorous ship sail!

    1. Steamweed

      The main is hoisted! Hoisting jib next, cap’n!

  47. Tarkara

    If this DOESNT becomes poly then this conversation is really mean to Joe (unintentionally)

  48. Double

    POLYAMORY’S BACK ON THE MENU, LADS!

  49. Bo

    by jove we need to start feeding her ethical polyamory books STAT does anyone have a spare copy of Polysecure???

    1. Nep

      Multiple, e-book or physical book?
      Why don’t I just chuck it at her head, Walky-style.

    2. Holly

      Sierra probably does, I am waiting for Joyce to run into that polycule long enough to chat (and by ‘I am waiting’, I mean, I am not really waiting, but it would be cool)

    3. ProfNekko

      the problem with the polycule route is kinda centered around Dorothy. She already has a low opinion of Joe even if she is tolerant of him given the current circumstances, but even then her having to share Joyce or even further participate with Joe would bother her greatly. Additionally she has an issue with wanting to stay in control of situations and making plans for everything. A polycule takes away some level of her control of the situation and even if she didn’t overtly call against it she would still be very stressed out over it. And as we see here Joyce is the kind who doesn’t like being forced to choose and wants to have her cake and eat it too so it’s going to be very difficult for her to just drop Joe as we see here.

  50. LurkerInTheWires

    Joyce “belonging” to Dorothy could be non-exclusive, like cats’ claims of ownership. An area belongs to this cat, but also to that cat; each claims complete and non-exclusive ownership. Any claiming ownership may flop around, hunt, explore, and so on freely. They might beef occasionally, but the territory still “belongs” to all cats involved.

    So, as the PolyAm Party campaigns for, she’d belong to Dorothy forever, but also to Joe as long as Joe wishes.

  51. Nep

    [starts up the polycule chant again]

    My Reasons:
    1) I’m polyamorous and I want more representation, especially representation that starts with making a bunch of awful choices that weren’t meant to hurt people but did anyway especially if they can address and work through those choices and find something good anyway.
    2) Look at this beautiful relationship, look how Joe and Joyce have grown together. They will continue to grow together as friends and that’s enough, that’s glorious, but I still want to see that romantic relationship.
    3) It would hurt Dorothy in the soul to share a loved one with Joe (especially after having to split Danny with Joe) and I want it. I need it. I need her eye to twitch and for her to suffer. It will be HILARIOUS. And then I want her to grow.

  52. DashWallkick

    Everyone who said “Joyce is trying to have her cake and eat it too” take a lap, you were right. She’s trying to keep Dorothy as her one and only true love and also Joe is the best thing that ever happened to her and she’s hoping if she just doesn’t break up with either of them maybe we can thread this needle.

  53. Dorjojoe

    MY NAME IS HAPPENING

    1. Li

      the prophecy!!

  54. wakeangel2001

    Hey, IVF is expensive, but sleeping with your college friend is free
    I’ll see myself out…

  55. Donutholebandit

    Wow, Joyce is really good at math, hey? She’s referencing the kind of numbers you’d need a REALLY big calculator for.

  56. Dandi Andi

    There are a million ways to say no, but only yes means yes.

  57. General Tekno

    So was the Beast Machines reference deliberate?

  58. JuanokuG4

    Why does she keep alluding to a throuple? It’s not gonna happen

  59. Genius of Love

    polycule. POLYCULE. ***POLYCULE***

  60. Ty34er

    I don’t think Joyce is going to end up staying with Dorothy. She’s somehow going to kiss Becky again.

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