I disagree that this and that are alike. One needs a cogent question to be able to form a cogent argument. “Why?”, without context, is not a cogent question, and the exam in question posed the question without context. So any amount of attempt to display a philosophical consideration that argues a position that answers the question should be sufficient to get a decent grade.
On the other hand, trying to convince someone to behave in a same sort of way on the same lack of reasoning is not a cogent argument.
That said, Joyce did a much better job at framing her argument in a cogent manner when she was speaking to Dina than she is here, as in, her argument was really based on “do you want to be with Becky? Were you happier with her than without her? Then why not choose to pursue that with her again?” rather than simply “because”. I can see why Joyce might conflate the two ideas, but they are not, in actuality, the same argument.
Not really sure if I should be sympathetic to Joyce’s argument here when my instinct is to call it childish and indulging in her worst habits of trying to force the way she thinks things ought to be on other people. But also Becky and Dina should get back together. So.
I mean, two things can be true:
– Joyce’s advice/help here is basically useless.
– Becky and Dina should work it out and get back together. Probably without Joyce’s help, since Joyce doesn’t really seem to have a great grasp on why other people do romantic things which is a necessary prerequisite to give decent advice.
Maybe this makes me a hater but I don’t think Becky and Dina should get back together. It’s not Joyce’s fault but there is a very real issue in their relationship that needs to be addressed. Becky needs to step up and do some work here and I think propping up them being a couple as mattering more than Dina’s own worth highlights their issue. I wanna see them back together but it shouldn’t be because of “because”. Whatever that even means.
It would be good because it would be an interesting development for their characters and it would mean the comic exists for a purpose other than serving comfort food via uncomplicated relationships.
I think it’s less an issue about Dina’s worth to Becky. With the hindsight of a few months of strips afterward we got more insight Becky’s issues. While it got sparked by the stuff with Joyce turning out to be bi, I think it’s mingled in, gordian-knot style, with her abandonment issues. Joyce turning out to be bi but rejecting Becky as a potential romantic partner then functions not simply as her still pining for Joyce, but instead it turns into a maelstrom of her abandonment issues with losing everyone and everything from her old life that was important to her.
Cut to the chase: It’s not that Dina has no worth to her in light of a loss of the Potential of Romantic Partner Joyce, it’s that Dina *does* have worth… but everything that was worthwhile in Becky’s life is underpinned with the implication that it’ll be taken from her, in one way or another. Thus Becky driving Dina away functions paradoxically: it’s something she fears deeply, but she’s convinced at a deep level it’s inevitable because she already keeps losing what’s important to her, *taken* away from her. (In this sense, when she and Joyce both thought Joyce was straight, that misconception served as a buffer: she couldn’t lose something that was “impossible” to have to begin with; painful but meaningful to the psychological mechanics at play). Thus, to keep a sense of control in her life, she pushes Dina away, to manage and control the damage that her fear and anxiety is telling her is inevitable instead of it being inflicted on her.
I found this very insightful, especially the Gordian reference. Becky seems to have constructed a very complicated knot to keep things contained, and that may be why Dina is so good for her. Dina is direct and uncluttered. Her love for Becky seems to bypass the knot and remove all the burden of past traumas. Hope Becky can find some healing and they can reconcile.
Dangit, Lanz. Now you’ve got me stuck on thinking that Becky’s Gordian Knot has Schrodinger’s Cat in it! Did she manage to keep her mother simultaneously alive and dead by knitting in a mother-faith-Joyce connection? Is this why she entered active mourning for her mom after Joyce came out?
.
What did my wife put in this coffee?
Doopyboop
Some of the mom mourning coming out could be related to Becky starting to believe there’s no heaven. Like, as grief filled Becky has been about her mom, she’s convinced herself she’ll see her mom again in heaven someday (even though technically if her religion is correct that is NOT the case but I get that Becky has mommy sized blinders on). Now that she’s losing her faith, she thinks her mom is gone forever and she’ll never, ever, ever, ever see or hear her mother again. And she’s only 18.
It is a very real issue. But that alone isn’t worth scrapping the relationship over before they actually sit down and talk. Remember that for them it’s only been a day or two.
Sure it’s only been a day or two. This can be salvaged, but in that time Dina’s been going through her own things and feeling bad. Mostly because of Becky, dealing with the aftermath of the police raid, arguably Becky should’ve been there to support her, but Joe had to step up as a friend. I think Dina’s feelings get overlooked often because she’s not as skilled at expressing herself or articulating it, but we know she’s not been happy the entire time Becky’s been feeling bad about Joyce not wanting her. I don’t think that can get fixed in one conversation and definitely not because Dina should be selfish or because love conquer s all or whatever Joyce’s philosophy is.
Doopyboop
I can’t help but feel like saying Becky ‘arguably should have been there for Dina’ post raid is a double standard when Dina walking away from Becky was touted as ‘Dina doesn’t owe Becky anything’. And, you know, Dina does have the right to walk away because she’s feeling a type of way, but then why is it that Becky isn’t allowed to take time apart to work on her own shit? Dina doesn’t want Becky to come comfort her like that, otherwise she wouldn’t have been the one to walk away first. They both need their time apart and then to come together to talk when ready.
Sirksome
@Doopyboop My point wasn’t that Becky should’ve been there despite the breakup, my point is they shouldn’t have been split up like that to begin with. If their relationship was so strong Dina would not have walked out and Becky wouldn’t have let her and more than that Becky even told Leslie she doesn’t really regret what she said or at least that it was true. To me the responsibility is on Becky to fix this, if she even wants to fix this and only if she’s sure she’s in a mental space to work on valuing Dina the way Dina wants and deserves. Otherwise maybe it’s best they stay broken up even if them being a couple feels good.
——-
I brought up Dina’s feelings after the police raid only because they are often overlooked even by Becky. Becky tends to immediately assume the worst and default to not being good enough without ever actually asking Dina. Dina’s possible insecurities, doubts, or hurt emotions rarely even acknowledged in their dynamic, but we do see they exist. It’s a shame Becky wasn’t there for that.
Doopyboop
But see, aside from literally this joyce blow up, Becky has consistently put Dina first all the time. Especially her feelings. consistently. all the time. like. ever. It IS on Becky to fix, yeah, but let’s not rewrite history to pretend Becky never ever treated Dina like her priority.
Sirksome
It’s not rewriting history. I kind of agree with you actually. I thought they were in a good place, I thought the little cracks in their relationship were nothing to worry about because their foundation was so solid. Turns out that’s not reality though and that it’s easy to say someone is your priority when you’re in a good place. Maybe Becky didn’t even truly realize what Dina’s priorities really are. It actually re-contextualizes a lot of their moments together. Dina saying things like “I like when you’re possessive of me.”
Odo
I think they were a cute couple but also each other’s first serious relationship. They are both still young and have a fair bit of growing and learning to do.
There was a good basis for a relationship, but also they kind of just both went with the first person who seemed interested.
Much as I’d like to see Dina and Becky get back together, I think Joyce’s reasoning that she told Dina made no sense. And at this point I also wouldn’t mind too much if they stay broken up.
I had to look up the conversation Joyce had with Dina and it was literally “Becky makes you feel good so you should pursue what makes you feel good like I did, consequences be damned!” She at no point said that Becky and Dina were soul mates that belonged together, only that Dina should be selfish and seek out someone that gives HER pleasure.
It was very toxic reasoning, and Joyce’s romantic novel brain rewrote it to be more spiritual… which clashes with her recent atheist views.
I really like this one; I’m feeling more “old school DoA” vibes (which I suppose might sort of mean “slightly-misty-eyed-and-philosophical”) tonight than I have lately. Nice work on this one!
I figured since I’ve been critical of the last few chapters I should speak up when I like stuff too.
Nah. We need some good old fashioned misery porn. Not only will Dina not get back together with Becky, she’ll end up with Joe and be happier with him than she was with Becky. Joyce and Dorothy will look on in concern, convinced that they’re to blame for Becky’s agony so they’ll offer up a threesome to try to comfort her. This will backfire in some way.
–
Well, that’s all I have at the moment. Anyone else want to contribute to the scenario? Don’t be afraid to punch people right in the feelings.
Danny and Walky wind up accidentally kissing due to some cliched sitcom hijinks, which is spotted by Sal and Amber, who angrily dump them both and swear off relationships for the foreseeable future?
Because I love you both and you were happy together, and I want you to be happy. and for some mysterious reason maybe them BEING together and cute and liking them being together meant a lot to deeeeeeeeeeeply closeted Joyce.
Don’t mean she gets what she wants, but like. Wanting possibly not logical and possibly not Fully Emotionally Healthily THought Out things is wildly normal, let alone when you’re like. 18.
“It was meant to be because it just was” is also one of the things she’s telling herself to excuse the way she cheated on Joe with Dorothy. How convenient!
Turns out an undersocialized queer neurodivergent girl who was the only member of her family to be homeschooled and was led to believe she was only being sent to college to get an elementary ed degree and find a husband, to produce a fresh batch of kids she would then homeschool herself…
…is gonna have some bumps in the road on the way to behaving like a normal person who lives in the world on the world’s terms.
Just for fun I looked back at the last strip with Dina in it. She is sleeping with the dinosaur bed again.
Maybe Joyce’ advice had more effect than we think.
I’m really hoping Dina calls Joyce out on her basically ordering Dina to take Becky back and “just be selfish for once in her life,” when Joyce’s selfishness was put on full display right in front of her, opting to kick the much needed relationship talk with Joe down the line and then still publicly claim that Dorothy is her one true love. I just remember her sour look when Joe calls Joyce “perfect” after Joyce left the room. Dina’s gonna get NASTY if Joyce tries shoving her and Becky back together when they aren’t ready.
63 thoughts on “Because”
IntangibleMatter
Not as compelling as “She got you a dinosaur bed and you love dinosaurs.”
Not that that’s a good reason, but it’s still more convincing and less magical thinking.
Joyce needs to learn her audience better.
NGPZ
no fuckin way Joyce!
ya really think Dina gonna do that???
you STUPID STINKY D:<
NGPZ
[insert dis track here, I got PT to do (-_-)]
smh
Tessea
Becky and Dina not being together makes the entire world seem broken, so I sympathize with Joyce, here.
Thag Simmons
I don’t know if it works like that Joyce.
Sirksome
I think we’re about to learn not to trust “because”.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Is this like the teacher who just gave an essay questions “Why?” and gave “A”s to “Because!” and “Why Not?”
Psychie
I disagree that this and that are alike. One needs a cogent question to be able to form a cogent argument. “Why?”, without context, is not a cogent question, and the exam in question posed the question without context. So any amount of attempt to display a philosophical consideration that argues a position that answers the question should be sufficient to get a decent grade.
On the other hand, trying to convince someone to behave in a same sort of way on the same lack of reasoning is not a cogent argument.
That said, Joyce did a much better job at framing her argument in a cogent manner when she was speaking to Dina than she is here, as in, her argument was really based on “do you want to be with Becky? Were you happier with her than without her? Then why not choose to pursue that with her again?” rather than simply “because”. I can see why Joyce might conflate the two ideas, but they are not, in actuality, the same argument.
Astariel
Didn’t Joyce tell Dina she should be selfish? That’s not quite as bad as how it’s coming across here. She did forget the dinosaur fact, though.
Jerna
She should have said to act with integrity, no regrets.
Dot
Not really sure if I should be sympathetic to Joyce’s argument here when my instinct is to call it childish and indulging in her worst habits of trying to force the way she thinks things ought to be on other people. But also Becky and Dina should get back together. So.
Lumino
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
Dwampre Scorrigank
Why?
Needfuldoer
Because!
Bash
I think the narrative makes it pretty clear that we SHOULDN’T be sympathetic to Joyce’s argument. She’s clearly not as good at advice as she thinks.
Big Z
I mean, two things can be true:
– Joyce’s advice/help here is basically useless.
– Becky and Dina should work it out and get back together. Probably without Joyce’s help, since Joyce doesn’t really seem to have a great grasp on why other people do romantic things which is a necessary prerequisite to give decent advice.
RassilonTDavros
Becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause the Muzak’s hacked, it plays a sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong
Bill Erak
I mean, I wouldn’t be so uncharitable. What you told Dina is that she should pursue what made her happy. At the very least THEY NEED TO TALK.
Shakes
“Pursure what makes you happy” means Dina will become the world’s first dinosaur hunter.
Dwampre Scorrigank
What? There’ve been dinosaur hunters for over 200 million years, probably!
Sirksome
Maybe this makes me a hater but I don’t think Becky and Dina should get back together. It’s not Joyce’s fault but there is a very real issue in their relationship that needs to be addressed. Becky needs to step up and do some work here and I think propping up them being a couple as mattering more than Dina’s own worth highlights their issue. I wanna see them back together but it shouldn’t be because of “because”. Whatever that even means.
Cameron Stone
It would be good because it would be an interesting development for their characters and it would mean the comic exists for a purpose other than serving comfort food via uncomplicated relationships.
Lanz
I think it’s less an issue about Dina’s worth to Becky. With the hindsight of a few months of strips afterward we got more insight Becky’s issues. While it got sparked by the stuff with Joyce turning out to be bi, I think it’s mingled in, gordian-knot style, with her abandonment issues. Joyce turning out to be bi but rejecting Becky as a potential romantic partner then functions not simply as her still pining for Joyce, but instead it turns into a maelstrom of her abandonment issues with losing everyone and everything from her old life that was important to her.
Cut to the chase: It’s not that Dina has no worth to her in light of a loss of the Potential of Romantic Partner Joyce, it’s that Dina *does* have worth… but everything that was worthwhile in Becky’s life is underpinned with the implication that it’ll be taken from her, in one way or another. Thus Becky driving Dina away functions paradoxically: it’s something she fears deeply, but she’s convinced at a deep level it’s inevitable because she already keeps losing what’s important to her, *taken* away from her. (In this sense, when she and Joyce both thought Joyce was straight, that misconception served as a buffer: she couldn’t lose something that was “impossible” to have to begin with; painful but meaningful to the psychological mechanics at play). Thus, to keep a sense of control in her life, she pushes Dina away, to manage and control the damage that her fear and anxiety is telling her is inevitable instead of it being inflicted on her.
TrueSurvivor
That was very insightful and, I believe, an excellent analysis.
Rimwalker55
I found this very insightful, especially the Gordian reference. Becky seems to have constructed a very complicated knot to keep things contained, and that may be why Dina is so good for her. Dina is direct and uncluttered. Her love for Becky seems to bypass the knot and remove all the burden of past traumas. Hope Becky can find some healing and they can reconcile.
Rimwalker55
Dangit, Lanz. Now you’ve got me stuck on thinking that Becky’s Gordian Knot has Schrodinger’s Cat in it! Did she manage to keep her mother simultaneously alive and dead by knitting in a mother-faith-Joyce connection? Is this why she entered active mourning for her mom after Joyce came out?
.
What did my wife put in this coffee?
Doopyboop
Some of the mom mourning coming out could be related to Becky starting to believe there’s no heaven. Like, as grief filled Becky has been about her mom, she’s convinced herself she’ll see her mom again in heaven someday (even though technically if her religion is correct that is NOT the case but I get that Becky has mommy sized blinders on). Now that she’s losing her faith, she thinks her mom is gone forever and she’ll never, ever, ever, ever see or hear her mother again. And she’s only 18.
Rimwalker55
Good points
Tessea
It is a very real issue. But that alone isn’t worth scrapping the relationship over before they actually sit down and talk. Remember that for them it’s only been a day or two.
Sirksome
Sure it’s only been a day or two. This can be salvaged, but in that time Dina’s been going through her own things and feeling bad. Mostly because of Becky, dealing with the aftermath of the police raid, arguably Becky should’ve been there to support her, but Joe had to step up as a friend. I think Dina’s feelings get overlooked often because she’s not as skilled at expressing herself or articulating it, but we know she’s not been happy the entire time Becky’s been feeling bad about Joyce not wanting her. I don’t think that can get fixed in one conversation and definitely not because Dina should be selfish or because love conquer s all or whatever Joyce’s philosophy is.
Doopyboop
I can’t help but feel like saying Becky ‘arguably should have been there for Dina’ post raid is a double standard when Dina walking away from Becky was touted as ‘Dina doesn’t owe Becky anything’. And, you know, Dina does have the right to walk away because she’s feeling a type of way, but then why is it that Becky isn’t allowed to take time apart to work on her own shit? Dina doesn’t want Becky to come comfort her like that, otherwise she wouldn’t have been the one to walk away first. They both need their time apart and then to come together to talk when ready.
Sirksome
@Doopyboop My point wasn’t that Becky should’ve been there despite the breakup, my point is they shouldn’t have been split up like that to begin with. If their relationship was so strong Dina would not have walked out and Becky wouldn’t have let her and more than that Becky even told Leslie she doesn’t really regret what she said or at least that it was true. To me the responsibility is on Becky to fix this, if she even wants to fix this and only if she’s sure she’s in a mental space to work on valuing Dina the way Dina wants and deserves. Otherwise maybe it’s best they stay broken up even if them being a couple feels good.
——-
I brought up Dina’s feelings after the police raid only because they are often overlooked even by Becky. Becky tends to immediately assume the worst and default to not being good enough without ever actually asking Dina. Dina’s possible insecurities, doubts, or hurt emotions rarely even acknowledged in their dynamic, but we do see they exist. It’s a shame Becky wasn’t there for that.
Doopyboop
But see, aside from literally this joyce blow up, Becky has consistently put Dina first all the time. Especially her feelings. consistently. all the time. like. ever. It IS on Becky to fix, yeah, but let’s not rewrite history to pretend Becky never ever treated Dina like her priority.
Sirksome
It’s not rewriting history. I kind of agree with you actually. I thought they were in a good place, I thought the little cracks in their relationship were nothing to worry about because their foundation was so solid. Turns out that’s not reality though and that it’s easy to say someone is your priority when you’re in a good place. Maybe Becky didn’t even truly realize what Dina’s priorities really are. It actually re-contextualizes a lot of their moments together. Dina saying things like “I like when you’re possessive of me.”
Odo
I think they were a cute couple but also each other’s first serious relationship. They are both still young and have a fair bit of growing and learning to do.
There was a good basis for a relationship, but also they kind of just both went with the first person who seemed interested.
Nono
“I can’t have ANOTHER couple I loved as people* get divorced!”
*feelings about Carol presently are unclear
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Because, because, because, because, because
Because of the wonderful things she does!
Amós Batista
Instead, Dina would double down her cetifism and self-respect.
Adam Black
What is cetifism ?
Rosicrucian
Cetifism deez pendularly suspended hard-shelled seed pods.
Kyulen
Much as I’d like to see Dina and Becky get back together, I think Joyce’s reasoning that she told Dina made no sense. And at this point I also wouldn’t mind too much if they stay broken up.
Corey C.
I had to look up the conversation Joyce had with Dina and it was literally “Becky makes you feel good so you should pursue what makes you feel good like I did, consequences be damned!” She at no point said that Becky and Dina were soul mates that belonged together, only that Dina should be selfish and seek out someone that gives HER pleasure.
It was very toxic reasoning, and Joyce’s romantic novel brain rewrote it to be more spiritual… which clashes with her recent atheist views.
Lee
I really like this one; I’m feeling more “old school DoA” vibes (which I suppose might sort of mean “slightly-misty-eyed-and-philosophical”) tonight than I have lately. Nice work on this one!
I figured since I’ve been critical of the last few chapters I should speak up when I like stuff too.
Elf grrl
Oh, so we are going to biology class. Good. I’d be sad if things happened off panel.
Bryy
You know who aren’t going to biology class? Joyce and Joe.
I’ll let myself out.
Shogo
Nah. We need some good old fashioned misery porn. Not only will Dina not get back together with Becky, she’ll end up with Joe and be happier with him than she was with Becky. Joyce and Dorothy will look on in concern, convinced that they’re to blame for Becky’s agony so they’ll offer up a threesome to try to comfort her. This will backfire in some way.
–
Well, that’s all I have at the moment. Anyone else want to contribute to the scenario? Don’t be afraid to punch people right in the feelings.
Zaxares
Danny and Walky wind up accidentally kissing due to some cliched sitcom hijinks, which is spotted by Sal and Amber, who angrily dump them both and swear off relationships for the foreseeable future?
Thing 2
The shadows are purple today.
clif
It’s been that kind of day.
…
Oh, wait. You meant in the strip.
Zamperla
Because I love you both and you were happy together, and I want you to be happy. and for some mysterious reason maybe them BEING together and cute and liking them being together meant a lot to deeeeeeeeeeeply closeted Joyce.
Don’t mean she gets what she wants, but like. Wanting possibly not logical and possibly not Fully Emotionally Healthily THought Out things is wildly normal, let alone when you’re like. 18.
Bryy
Joyce what the fuck.
Also I’m super interested in Joyce’s actual thinking here because this sounds like SUPER backsliding.
Needfuldoer
“It was meant to be because it just was” is also one of the things she’s telling herself to excuse the way she cheated on Joe with Dorothy. How convenient!
Bryy
I’m just so disappointed.
darkoneko
oh. oh no
yak
Accidental report
Anyway I agree with all of this and also, I think Willis was already setting that up (maybe unintentionally) in recent strips.
yak
OK this was meant to be a reply to Zaxares above but the comment system is unusable on my phone sorry
Steamweed
Golly gosh darn, if everyone just followed the Hallmark Movie Channel’s romance protocols, everything sure would be a lot simpler.
Taffy
Joyce hasn’t noticed the block of C4 Becky slapped onto her back.
Rosicrucian
Turns out an undersocialized queer neurodivergent girl who was the only member of her family to be homeschooled and was led to believe she was only being sent to college to get an elementary ed degree and find a husband, to produce a fresh batch of kids she would then homeschool herself…
…is gonna have some bumps in the road on the way to behaving like a normal person who lives in the world on the world’s terms.
Weird, right?
CT Phipps
No one should ever act like a normal person. Normal people are horrifying.
The Addams Family was the first group I encountered who felt like I shouldn’t be scared of them. :)
yak
Maybe this is what she is thinking, but it’s not what she told Dina.
Rimwalker55
Just for fun I looked back at the last strip with Dina in it. She is sleeping with the dinosaur bed again.
Maybe Joyce’ advice had more effect than we think.
Corey C.
I’m really hoping Dina calls Joyce out on her basically ordering Dina to take Becky back and “just be selfish for once in her life,” when Joyce’s selfishness was put on full display right in front of her, opting to kick the much needed relationship talk with Joe down the line and then still publicly claim that Dorothy is her one true love. I just remember her sour look when Joe calls Joyce “perfect” after Joyce left the room. Dina’s gonna get NASTY if Joyce tries shoving her and Becky back together when they aren’t ready.
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