hobie brown voice: she was this gay the whole time
7

Transcript

Jocelyne: I'm JOCELYNE. Joyce's big sister.
Sarah: I'm Sarah. Joyce's... big sister.
Jocelyne: we can, um, both be her big sister
Sarah: As far as I can tell, you reclaimed the "big sister" role for ONE AFTERNOON, and she came back GAY AND UNFAITHFUL. and--and only one of those i have a problem with.
Jocelyne: Sarah, it's COLLEGE. Boyfriends COME AND GO. BELIEVE me.
Jocelyne: But you only get so many chances to snag a DOROTHY.
Sarah: So you ARE instrumental in this!

Big sisters
Posted on April 22, 2026 by David M Willis

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Tags: jocelyne, sarah

344 thoughts on “Big sisters”

  1. Astariel

    You tell her, Jocelyne!

    1. Pocky

      Jocelyne pulling rank here lol

      1. Deanatay

        Jocelyne IS the OLDER older sister, here. Elder big sister?

  2. shanunu

    Wait did all that really happen the same time Jocelyne came out to Joyce???

    1. Nono

      Not the same time, but it was the same week.

      If I remember right, Jocelyne came out to Joyce, then she had a talk with Dorothy where she told her about the planned protest that weekend.

  3. Dot

    Yeugh

    1. Needfuldoer

      Right? Jocelyne seemed to really like Joe before the protest.

      1. Amara

        She did like Joe! But she’s absolutely adoring a) how her sister isn’t actually as straight as she thought she had been and b) how Dorothy has won her over as well.

    2. Big Z

      Yeah, I’m not really sure where this line of thought from Joceylne comes from. Especially the arbitrary Dorothy love — if college romances come and go, what makes Dorothy especially different from the hordes of vaguely nerdy overachievers with mental health issues that seemingly have populated every college dorm since at least when *I* was in college and dated a few of ’em over the years.

      1. apocryphascribe

        Truthfully, there is no difference, but that’s only if you’re trying to think objectively about it. As queer people, we tend to value queer relationships over others in societies where doing that is a reaction to queerphobic narratives and forces. In Jocelyn’s specific case, it makes complete sense that she’s enamored with Dorothy, because of how much Joyce has changed as a result, especially in the sense that Joyce is also queer and accepting of her transness. She doesn’t have the context we have, and I doubt that even if she had it, she’d change her opinion, because ultimately this is her preferred outcome as well.

  4. Sirksome

    Yes. Yes! They must fight! The war for big sister supremacy is on!

    1. jeffepp

      You misspelled “flirt”.

      1. StarfighterVicki

        It would be hilarious if Sarah realized she’s bi, then made out with Jocelyne without breaking up with Tony first.

        1. Yotomoe

          This but with Raidah. Im all in on that ship.

        2. ElderlyMarxist

          thrilled by both sarah/jocelyne & sarah/raidah. ngl would be v curious about joyce’s reaction to sarah/jocelyne

        3. Mitzi B.

          https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/bonecity/

          One day Sarah and Raidah shall enter Bone City, and only one shall survive

  5. ZombieKyrik

    Even Jocelyne recognizes Dorothy’s hotness, or maybe it’s a genetic thing. That being said, I don’t know if Jocelyne would approve of Joyce’s “infidelity.”

    So let’s place bets, does Jocelyne being here make things easier, or harder for the DorothyXJoyce?

    1. ZombieKyrik

      I didn’t mean whether Jocelyne approves or not; I meant whether having her around is going to add to the Dorothy/Joyce drama by being on Joyce’s side.

    2. Cbwroses

      She knew about Joe and seemed to have no issue with the cheating that I can remember.
      At the very least, she’s only given positive vibes and no criticism of the cheating that I remember.
      But, to your question, I don’t see her presence making things harder, unless she runs into Joe and recognizes he’s not happy (or Walky or Becky, but I don’t think she even knows Walky and the cheating part is not Becky’s issue).

      1. Samantha

        To be honest the cheating is incredibly minor. It was a heat of the moment kiss and one also adrenaline crash fueled makeout. The entire unfortunate awkward affair lasted less than a day before she was caught and she was already planning to come clean. I’m pretty sure Joss sees it as basically a stupid college mistake. I’m she says as much in college boyfriends come and go but Dorothy is special. Remember Joss is seeing Dorothy as a useful smart and driven person throwing herself behind a good cause
        Joyce and Joe were together for a week and as much as I preferred them to Joyce and Dorothy I don’t think the cheating is some great horrible heinous unforgivable betrayal. I see Dorothy treatment of Wally worse.

        1. Victor Mortimer

          We still have time for the polycule to happen.

        2. Astariel

          If Joe doesn’t have closure, that’s his own fault. Joyce went to break up with him and he proposed a different relationship instead of just accepting that. It’s fine for him to do that, but then he can’t really complain if Joyce needs some time to thing about it. (And he hasn’t complained. He seems perfectly willing to give her the time she needs.)

        3. Jon

          Not wanting to hurt Joe’s feelings is “selfish”??

        4. Whirlakitty

          I pretty much agree with you here! I’m really..frustrated by people’s responses to Joyce “cheating” and I’m trying to calm down and come at it from a perspective of figuring out why people think this instead of just being angry about it.
          I feel like people think Joyce was not allowed to break up with Joe. That since they dated for a few days, Joe “owns” her and he can’t leave without her permission. That seems a pretty horrifying attitude to me, but also a very real one. And if Joyce is allowed to break up, then…she’s allowed to break up. She doesn’t need to consult him first. He’s certainly allowed to be hurt by it – being broken up with hurts, most people feel that way. But breaking up with someone is not, as other people have put it “treating them like shit”.
          The second take would be “Joyce is allowed to break up with Joe, but not to take action until he’s informed him”. Again, this comes across to me as needing his permission. And in my opinion, when you realize the person you loved but thought was impossible to be involved with not only IS a possibility, but is actively about to put herself in danger because of her unrequited love for you, yes, you damn well kiss her. Anyone with a heart should be able to get that.
          So the last one is “she didn’t tell him right away”. Good grief, the girl (who has already been traumatized by like four kidnapping/assaults) was just assaulted, nearly kidnapped, shot at, tear-gassed, and had her entire concept of her sexual identity and everything her fundamentalist upbringing told her flipped on its head. That’s a LOT to deal with. I’ve been and known people who’ve had traumatic situations that are a fraction as bad as what Joyce went through and had a hard time coping with things properly for days afterward. At that sort of point “oh, I should follow some unwritten rules of politeness and formality” is really NOT on your mind and I think its utterly unreasonable to expect it to be.

    3. Switchchris

      Her one chance to have that talk was taken away by Dina tossing her towards Becky lol, its not her fault she is busy. she isn’t scared to talk to him, she fully intended to, was on a role, but dina needed a new lab partner.

      1. thejeff

        There was no indication she was going to have that talk with Joe right there in class. It’s not like she’d started to introduce the topic before Dina interrupted her.

      2. Throwatron

        thejeff is totally right. Joe is perfectly willing to give Joyce all the time in the world to have that conversation, and deeply (too much tbh) cares about making her maximum comfortable with any situation they’re both in. He went out of his way to set it up so that He and Dina didn’t have to encounter Joyce and Becky while going to class; the only wrench in that plan was that Joyce also thought of doing that.

        I for one am just so confused as to how many people expect Joyce to immediately know how to cope with a situation that’s a complete paradigm shift of her understanding of her social world, and just neatly deal with it in an hour. I actually don’t think she’s unreasonable for taking time to have the conversation with Joe, until she actually knows the answer to that question he posed. He very much indicated to her that he’s willing to give her the time to consider it. We all know that his patience is just another form of martyrdom, and it’s normal to feel bad for him…but those are also his choices, which he is opting into, not things that Joyce is doing to him.

        Now, not being open about this possibility with Dorothy? That, I perfectly understand people being judgemental about. I don’t fully expect Joyce to know better about that, by default, but I also kind of think she does intuitively know better in this case, and is deliberately hiding it from Dorothy, more so than just not thinking it’s pertinent information to share.

        tl;dr it’s actually normal to need more than ten seconds to think about the answer to a very serious relationship question, especially when you’re the most sheltered young adult on the planet, with nearly zero social aptitudes.

    4. Throwatron

      I have to imagine that Jocelyn’s blind bias towards her sister will come to a head at some point in the future. I’m not saying that as a criticism of Jocelyn! I’m just saying, Mx Willis wouldn’t just set up a character foil this obvious, without it actually being destined to go somewhere.

  6. Bill Erak

    Sarah, let’s not kid ourselves, Joyce didn’t ‘come back’ gay. If anything, her current relationship with Dorothy is less gay than whatever the fuck they had going on before.

    1. Bill Erak

      Oh man people are gonna be so normal about Jocelyne not giving a shit about the impermanence of relationships. Maybe they should remember how she described her own college years.

      1. clif

        As is normal.

      2. DJTsurugi

        that is 100% what Bill said. ~<3

    2. Wilde

      They’re being normal! “New normal”

  7. Thag Simmons

    I feel like Jocelyne doesn’t know Dorothy well enough to make this judgement.

    1. Shepsquared

      What are you talking about? She can tell from her brief, minutes long, interactions with Joe & Joyce and with Dorothy & Joyce that they”re true soul mates, married under the inexplicably ineffective tear gas arch. And she can do this because… um… I got nothing.

    2. Sirksome

      I think having a bias towards chasing “true love” at the expense of anything else and dismissing the people you’ve hurt just might be a Brown family trait.

      1. anonymsly

        Specifically Carol’s trait, as I think about it.

    3. Versen

      Kinda getting “living vicariously through Joyce because I didn’t get to do this stuff in college” vibes.

      Careful Joyce, your sister might wanna snatch up your girlfriend, maybe Dorothy wants to have someone mommy them for a while since she’s oscillating between that and burning out.

    4. Yotomoe

      It feels nuts to me, namely cuz Dorothy is the exact kind of person I find incredibly EXHAUSTING to be around. If a relative of mine was dating a Dorothy I’d be hoping it was just a phase.

      1. HueSatLight

        I expect this to just be a phase too. But barring time skips it’s going to be a slog.

    5. Thag Simmons

      I can absolutely see why Jocelyne would be in the tank for Dorothy over Joe from the information she has. That’s all coherent enough.
       
      It’s just that last panel that hits a weird tone.

      1. Theozilla

        Yeah, like it isn’t surprising (and understandable) that someone who has a marginalized sexuality/gender would view another person’s self-discovery of their own marginalized sexual identity/orientation as being more important than any previous heterosexual relationship they might have been in. Like when you watch the film “Carol” are you the filmgoer really spending that much time invested in the husband who’s being cheated or are you more invested in the two lesbians who are trying to maintain a relationship in a heterosexist society.
        It just feels weird for us in this specific context because Joe wasn’t some nameless shmuck, and he and Joyce hadn’t been in some loveless sham relationship when Joyce went on her process of bisexuality awakening with Dorothy.

    6. anon

      becky knew she was trans before joyce did so maybe they texted each other a lot of becky told her a lot about dorothy?

    7. Treehawk

      Jocelyn’s first introduction to Dorothy was Dorothy declaring Joyce looks “so cute” while Joyce was wearing the worst outfit known to mankind, immediately followed up by Joyce defending Dorothy’s goodness in spite of her athiesm, all the way back in like 2013-ish? It’s not that Dorothy’s a magical bisexual powerhouse of hotness (although who am I to say she is not) — it’s that she’s been a fast and enduring friend to a Joyce who really needed that support, I think.

    8. Dot

      Why on earth was my comment here deleted

  8. ZombieKyrik

    Who is this directed at?

    1. IntangibleMatter

      Funnily enough my mom is bi, but she’s so progressive that she’s to the left of me in some ways, and I define myself as “far left”.

      This is specifically based off someone I knew in high school but also it’s partially made up for the sake of the example. But I have known a lot of queer people who are also just kinda fucking annoying for various reasons, though that’s likely just sampling bias because I know a lot of queer people.

  9. Nono

    Is… is this misogyny, somehow? I don’t know if this is Joycelyne going “men are boring, now WOMEN” or “most people are boring, now DOROTHY”

    1. aelfwine

      Surely you mean misandry, not misogyny?

      1. dinerkinetic

        Kinda both– idealizing women by putting them on some weird pedestal is probably as or more harmful than just kinda treating men as disposable

        1. aelfwine

          Misogyny means hatred of women, not everything “harmful”, not even everything sexist.

      2. Nono

        Yeah, I’d gotten the terms mixed up.

    2. geno

      I think as usual all of you need to touch grass. This entire comment section is terminally online, and overreacting to everything

    3. Cassie

      No; it’s not about the gender of Joyce’s partner so much as the ephemerality of college relationships in general. Jocelyne could’ve included girlfriends in her statement and I think she would have if Joyce’d had any girlfriends prior to Dorothy. Also, misogyny in this case would be something more like devaluing Joyce’s sexual/romantic relationships with women, or saying something like “you know how girls are at this age, give her a week and she’ll be on a new partner.”

      As for misandry, that’s not really a thing beyond the interpersonal level. By which I mean, there is no systemic oppression that is directed specifically at men solely due to them being men. Patriarchy is a hierarchy and there are men who are devalued for various reasons (many of which coincide with other axes of oppression) or because they do not perform masculinity to the standards demanded (including perpetuating misogyny by exploiting those lower on the hierarchy and regendering and degendering people), but this is not the same as being targeted by oppression. If misandry was real as a social force, we would see it apply to all men, the same way we see misogyny apply to all women, and that’s just not the case.

      1. thejeff

        Except that it’s not quite so generically dismissive, since she’s treating Dorothy as special. There’s no hint that she thinks that Dorothy will come and go as lightly as college boyfriends.

  10. Yotomoe

    Yeah naw. I don’t really understand why Jocelyne would say this. She barely knows EITHER of them.

    Granted I also don’t know why Sarah is saying what she’s saying. I don’t care for this interaction.

    1. Yumi

      My only thinking is that it’s not so much about who Dorothy is, but who Dorothy is *to Joyce.” Clearly someone extremely important to her.
      That said, the look in the last panel doesn’t seem like that’s what she meant; having been around both Joyce and Joe and Joyce and Dorothy, that would just be what makes the most sense for her to be basing her comments on.

      1. Cass

        Maybe Sarah remembered Jocelyne is in the background of the newspaper photo and thinks that if she were the one on big sister duty at that moment she would have yanked Joyce back by her collar until she went and broke up with Joe instead of smiling approvingly at them.

        1. Cassie

          I hope not; that’s a level of controlling that’s rather uncomfortable. Being a good big sister doesn’t mean forcing your sister to behave the way you like.

    2. Bash

      Dorothy made an effort to get to know her when she came to campus the first time. Then she made a point of checking in with her, and helping with her political goals. I know she can be overbearing sometimes but she’s genuinely a very caring person who tries to make time for people. Remember when Booster was being introduced and she was the only one to ask them about themselves?

    3. nadamás

      Why wouldn’t Sarah say this?

      1. Les

        Because she’s trying to usurp the role of ‘big sister’ from Joyce’s *actual* big sister? Implying that her position as roommate and friend is more solid than an actual family relationship is unsubtly transphobic. Sarah has not stopped being a knob since this interaction started.

        1. nadamás

          That’s not something that’s happening. Please stop hallucinating.

        2. Thing 2

          Or so *subtly* transphobic that almost nobody would read it that way!!!

    4. HueSatLight

      All of her knowledge of Joe is limited by what Joyce has told her, or how she’s acted towards Joe around her, and most of her knowledge of Dorothy is based on the same. That’s why Jocelyne is putting Dorothy on the volume 1 pedestal, and treating Joe as nothing special. Jocelyne doesn’t know Joe and Joyce have been good friends, or how much Dorothy’s been too busy for hanging out most of the time. It’s an understandable misunderstanding on her part.
      However, she’s being supportive of Joyce cavalierly disposing of Joe, how Sarah’s been disposed of. After Joyce laid a huge guilt trip on her to give Joe a second chance.

  11. Joy

    kjdlkjsdlkjf yeah

  12. Alongcameaspider

    I’m sure the comments will be very normal and calm today

    1. Taffy

      I’ll normal *your* calm

      1. Jon

        But can you calm their normal?

        1. Taffy

          I can’t calm in general, due to a chemical imbalance somewhere in my body, which causes me to be in a constant state of agitation, anxiety, and general restlessness. And besides, who am I to interfere with someone else’s normal in any way?

        2. clif

          Wow. I have to be debugging my software to reach that state.

    2. Jay

      Well considering all of mine got deleted lol

  13. Jay

    This was meant to be a reply

  14. Nono

    Oh yeah, I got my terms mixed up.

    But yeah, it’s not a GOOD look for Jocelyne, either way.

  15. Cassie

    Misandry isn’t real hope this helps.

    1. Jay

      See?

      Not even 5 minutes.

      1. Cassie

        Comprehension check: what’s the difference between “misandry isn’t real” and “men don’t deserve rights”?

        I’m case you’re struggling, the answer is that one is based in material analysis of the world as it exists and the way patriarchy in literally every society ever consistently incentivizes misogyny and rewards those who perpetuate it but punishes those who try to push back against misogyny while the other is reactionary whining that pops up to help perpetuate misogyny.

    2. ZombieKyrik

      Misandry is real; institutionalized misandry is fake, but misandry can exist. Does it happen as much as misogyny? No. Is misogyny often rewarded instead of punished? Yes. Misogyny has systemic power, and is far more damaging as a result, but that doesn’t mean misandry is a myth.

      tl;dr Misandry and misogyny are both real, but misogyny happens more, and is, unfortunately, supported by society, and has a baked in systemic power that misandry doesn’t have.

    3. dinerkinetic

      I think my issue with comments like this is that while misandry doesn’t hurt nearly as many people as mysoginy, that doesn’t make it more excusable? Like, nobody should be habitually shitting on a gender or a race or a sexuality; it doesn’t become harmless just because it’s *less* bad because it hurts people’s feelings but not their careers

  16. stePH

    I’m missing some context here?

  17. Shakes

    While Jocelyne didn’t get the fundiebrain conditioning quite as hard as Joyce I think there’s still a possibility of her holding the same hope for Magical True Love deep under her practised nonchalance, perhaps even mixed with a more recent bias for Gay Stuff.

  18. Bryy

    Yup, she’s a Brown.

  19. Stormtide Leviathan

    Jocelyn looks very sad to be sharing the big sister role

    1. Cassie

      I read it as more awkward, but being sad seems like a pretty reasonable reaction. Jocelyne grew up with Joyce and know how much she wanted an older sister, and then she comes out and gets to fill that role only to discover it’s already filled. I can’t imagine it’s made any easier by the person who filled it trying to argue that she has the better claim that Joyce’s actual sister

  20. Bryy

    Sometimes people are the most toxic when they are trying to be less.

  21. Sirksome

    It would be zealot if you want to call it that. Sarah specifically has an unseen history of being cheated on or having her boyfriends stolen so she is especially sensitive to cheating.

  22. flake

    unfortunately, due to the power imbalance, there is an inherent difference between “ugh, men are the worst” and “ugh, women are the worst”.
    that said tho, there’s some messed up sexism directed towards men and it’s in everyone’s best interest to be able to call it out and fix it. (for things as big as not seeing boys as possible victims, but also for justifying cheating because of a general distaste towards all men).

  23. dinerkinetic

    Hell, I’m a paladin, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love mess! I was worried the comic was going to celebrate the two of them getting together in a shitty way but hopeful it would at least shake up the status quo of the comic. That people are so immediately forgiving of their actions– hell, that people like Doroth “I need to do this protest for MYSELF even if it gets amber shot when everyone could just retreat” Keener– just really confuse me to no end

  24. Coatl

    t’s good to see that there are still people who haven’t forgotten that there was a betrayal involved.

  25. Shakes

    I always thought Joyce and Dorothy was the endgame for the comic, like walking hand in hand into the sunset final panel style, but I also thought they’d have to earn that revelation and so far it’s been a bit too magical feeling which also makes it hollow and… unearned?
    I dunno, something’s not felt right since the gay tag was pulled.

  26. AMagicalDuck

    Uh oh, the trans woman said something mildly controversial but not actually that bad. I see all the “I’m not transphobic but” folks have arrived to get irrationally angry

    1. Jon

      Deletion of even mildly critical comments? We clearly have not been reading the same comments page.

    2. Amós Batista

      “I spent all my energy in accepting you as a trans. Please, do not commit any kind of transgression or I’ll forget everything”

      1. Izzy

        You can in fact criticize a trans person without invalidating their gender, I say this as a trans person. We are not some children who need the teddy bear treatment, we can get criticized for opinions just like everyone else.

        1. Li

          No one in this thread actually said otherwise, so.

    3. Thing 2

      Where? I’m not seeing them.

  27. Mitzi B.

    It’s like the scholar said: Boys, they come and go like seasons.

    1. Mitzi B.

      However, I would not take Jocelyne’s advice on love affairs very seriously, for an important reason: she’s single.

  28. Allie_KO

    Man, I love Jocelyn. I love anyone who’s displaying a pretty normal reaction to a college relationship having some infidelity. Maybe not loving it but not giving a hoot, maybe liking who they chose more and not caring. Not caring because it’s college, and people make stupid choices and feel the need to defend them from being theirs. The rabid anger about it is bizarre to me. Like… I’ve been cheated on and tricked into being the other woman, and while both were awful, it’s not like I’m going to suddenly froth at the mouth at fictional cheating or someone else doing it, and demand we break out the Scarlet Letters because two neurotic freshman cheated in a relationship that’s measured in weeks. That’s a little intense, especially since these characters aren’t real, aren’t you the reader, and are part of a story already written years ago.

    1. anon

      yeah it might not be the best thing but you’d think college would be the ideal setting (within reason) to ‘make mistakes’ (not that dating dorothy is necessarily a mistake)

      1. Mitzi B.

        In real life, I’d call dating someone like Dorothy a mistake, but this is a comic and none of the characters are me, so it’s less likely to be a mistake

        1. deliverything

          Besides, it’d probably be a less interesting comic without characters making mistakes.

    2. Samantha

      Yeah I agree. For me the cheating isn’t right but it’s not a big deal really. It amounts to a heat of the moment adrenaline fueled kiss and then a wild manic make out a few minutes after they escaped arrest. They both pretty quickly agreed to address it and tell their partners. And they were caught literally within 24 hours.

      I fully agree with with Jocelyn. This is college boyfriends come and go stupid things happen

    3. Astariel

      100% agree. It’s good to get some actually perspective on this from a character who’s experienced enough to have that perspective.

  29. Nono

    Hrm. Seems like comments are already getting removed. Sounds like it’s going to be a very “normal” day then.

    1. Taffy

      Some of the removed comments so far have been completely innocuous, which is kinda funny.

      1. Icalasari

        Guess they are using auto mod to help and it’s tuned a little on the sensitive side

        1. Theozilla

          I was wondering what was going on.

        2. Yotomoe

          Yeah I genuinely doubt it’s an automod.

      2. Jay

        I have a few that I totally understand being removed.

        The one where I called out my disappointment in Jocelyne just being 100% a-ok with cheating was not one of them.

        1. eh, whatever

          It’s not like Jocelyne knows any details about that chain of events, you know.

    2. SaffronComic

      Honest to god, Willis should just delete the comment section and let us all go complain on Reddit or TikTok or whatever the kids are using nowadays where he can’t see us. It’d make his life a lot less stressful.

      1. Shepsquared

        I’m still in shock Willis reads the comments when Bluesky is clearly how he prefers to communicate to his audience.

      2. anon

        there have been past strips where comments are completely off so might depend on how controversial things get

      3. Taffy

        “Digital agents”, come on now.

  30. Allie_Ko

    They don’t deserve anything, they’re not real people.

  31. K

    Why are comments getting deleted? Dot and Yotomoe haven’t said anything offensive but their comments are now gone??

    1. K

      And Yotomoe’s reply to me got deleted just now…

      1. Yotomoe

        :P Yeah I definitely think it’s targeted. Whelp.

        1. Jay

          100%.

          Shame, I was hoping to read some replies and see how others were feeling about….*this*

    2. Thing 2

      Maybe it isn’t deliberate, but some kind of glitch. Internet stuff is pretty glitchy!

  32. Insanenoodlyguy

    She’s the sister with integrity.

  33. Theozilla

    Huh, is there a reason why my earlier comment in a reply thread got removed? All I was expressing in it was sympathy for Jocelyne’s reaction, and comparing the sentiments to how a viewer engages with the film Carol, but also noting how Joe also wasn’t/isn’t a nameless schmuck character.

    1. clif

      If a comment is removed, all threads in reply to that comment are also removed.

  34. TrueSurvivor

    Yep, you got to take a chance to catch yourself a Dorothy. Untill of course, a shiny Dorothy comes along.

    1. Taffy

      The Shiny Clause doesn’t always apply, and Joyce grew up in a fundamentalist household. Her Nuzlocke rules unfortunately don’t allow her to swap out Dorothy for Shiny Dorothy.

      1. clif

        I choose to believe that Shiny Clause is Santa’s older brother.

    2. Ray Radlein

      I think Joe for Dorothy may have been a Lucky trade

  35. dinerkinetic

    I get being upset about snark, but isn’t criticism important for writing the webcomic? I don’t think I’ve ever been less than civil, but if audience reaction to something’s largely (as in, like half) negative, isn’t that something an author should keep in mind even if they want to stay committed to their original vision?

  36. Taffy

    What I don’t understand is why you think Willis is personally deleting all these comments, ya rube.

    1. Yotomoe

      I find it unlikely there’s any kind of automod that would let the comments pass through, stay up for a while and then delete them, and delete them with the kind of precision it seems to have been deleting them in. It’s either the site moderator deleting them, or the comments are getting mass reported by someone.

    2. Taffy

      Somebody doesn’t know about the Report Comment button and how it works.

  37. Zamperla

    Listen it’s good to have different perspectives and options from advice from older siblings. That way you can find new ways to make EVERYONE mad eventually.

    1. Taffy

      Some of us don’t even have older siblings, please be mindful of that.

      1. Thing 2

        Those of us with excess or ‘unwanted gift’ may be able to supply…

  38. Mitzi B.

    Never forget rule 0 of every social website: the site owner does what the site owner wants

  39. Wack'd

    Allow me to clear up some confusion.

    This place is, like, infamously a cesspit. Everyone agrees. People who are coming into this comic for the first time are getting put off. They’re getting your collective ass on Tumblr and Bluesky. If anyone here thought that was just gonna be allowed to stand, well. I’ve got some bad news.

    There’s some confusion about why comments are getting deleted. Here’s the criteria I’m using–yes, me. I’m your new mod. Hi! Did you guys like semester one Ruth? I did. I liked her a lot.

    – If your comment is just talking about how much you dislike a character, or just a big list of their flaws and misdeeds, it is getting DELETED.

    – If your comment is just complaining we’re following plotline A and not plotline B, or that plotline A is not going how you wanted, it is getting DELETED.

    – If your comment is a personal accusation that Willis personally endorses their character’s behavior, is using a character as a mouthpiece, hates their audience, or really anything, it is getting DELETED.

    – If your comment is a personal accusation or attack towards another commenter or group of commenters, it is getting DELETED. (Stuff like “oh the transphobes will get big mad about this” is fine, because if I do my job right those folks are not commenters anymore.)

    – If your comment is a personal attack towards me, uh, wow! Ballsy! I might leave those up just for posterhahahaha nope I do not in fact gotta hand it to you DELETED.

    – If your comment is complaining that criticism is not being taken, it is getting DELETED. But also, hey, guess what–Willis has been reading the same shit for a year now! Message received! If it falls into the established buckets they absolutely know about it. Sleep well, with your conscious clear.

    “But wait!” you ask, sad and confused. “What CAN we post, by this criteria!” Well, I’m sorry your world has become so petty and so small. Maybe try analyzing the text based on criteria beyond gut reactions, or starting a constructive dialogue.

    “Man, these rules suck,” you might think. “I don’t wanna post here anymore.” Cool! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!

    “But wait! I didn’t MEAN to insult anyone or cause random negativity! I merely meant–” Well then phrase your thoughts better. Maybe proofread.

    Anyway, that’s it! I hope you enjoyed your last day of this being a scathing fighty freeforall, because those days are done. Run off to Reddit if you can’t fucking handle it. Those guy’s’ll take anyone.

    Peace.

    1. Icalasari

      Ah, so it was a new mod, alright.
      I wish you luck because you are going to need it. Doesn’t matter if you or your actions wrong or right, you’re basically going to be where anger gets directed at for the next few days because people here laser focus hard, as you’ve seen.

      Imma retreat to bsky for a week or two meanwhile to avoid the commenter drama about to come.

      Again, good luck

      1. Wack'd

        just imagining you as the priest from blazing saddles going “well son…you’re on your own…”

        1. Rimwalker55

          A surprisingly apt reference. :-) And tomorrow the shop clerk will bust into your office shouting, “Sheriff, Mongo’s back in town!”

    2. jabbingQuirker

      o7 good luck modding. may your inbox be empty and your coffee full

    3. SaffronComic

      Message received.

    4. Taffy

      Well, at least I haven’t been banned.

      1. Morleuca

        If that happened, I would cry You are one of the reasons I still read the comments.

        1. Taffy

          An oddly troubling statement.

        2. zee

          Ngl I’d legit leave the comments, you’re too funny to lose. You’re like. The biggest highlight here

        3. Steamweed

          Taffy, I third Morleuca and zee. Yours is one of the half-dozen personalities I look for in the comments. :)

    5. Yotomoe

      Frustrating feeling. I’ve been commenting less because I just got tired of the negativity. But honestly with this new change I don’t really feel safe to comment here anymore at all. And it makes me not want to comment. That said it also feels gross to be bullied out of somewhere I’ve been for the past 10+ years. But if I cannot express myself freely I guess I’ll have to adjourn. Maybe I’ll pop in to post art from time to time.
      This comment will probably be deleted but farewell you guys.

      1. RexLatro

        Yeah…this feels like one of those nights you’re gonna see a huge shift in a community and an overall vibe change. If this is the atmosphere the new mod/Willis wants to set, then more power to them, I guess?

        1. Mitzi B.

          Right now it still feels the same (like a PvP enabled zone) but hopefully everyone will figure out a new equilibrium of mutual respect

        2. RexLatro

          At this point I’m less inclined to agree with a new equilibrium or things staying mostly the same. If we’re having long-time posters like Yotomoe stating they’re no longer comfortable posting while we have our new mod making “internet tough-guy circa 2004” posts (and then deleting them…and then undeleting them while deleting other posts asking where the new rules post went), I’m not really filled with as much optimism as you are. Maybe I’ll get deleted/modded for saying this, but while I’ve been more of a lurker than a prolific poster like others for the years I’ve enjoyed these comics, the fact that someone who felt comfortable making the post that we see above is now in a position of authority over this little community is deeply troubling, at least to me.

        3. Joy

          Yeah, the internet tough guy thing is worrying me. The idea that “attacking” (VAGUE language, even though it might seem specific) people that the mod disagrees with politically is fine, but not people the mod agrees with politically especially gives me pause. Like, I’m trans, so I don’t want transphobes in the comments section. But I’m getting the implication that defending yourself in an argument will get moderated depending on if this moderator personally disagrees with your opinion.

        4. Joy

          Are Black commenters going to have their comments disproportionately deleted since white people have a tendency to read AAVE as hostile online?

        5. Joy

          like please dont take that last part as an attack its just that some of my best friends are Black and its something they have to deal with all the time and like no one is immune to misinterpreting stuff that way like ive done that

      2. Joy

        I understand. I worry my comments will get deleted if I continue to question Willis’s political takes. My personal experience with strict moderation environments is being called misogynistic slurs by the mods, and I don’t move through life trying to harm people or anything. Like this is a comments section and not a discord server so I guess the sexual harassment part would have to be public if there is any, so I’m not as worried.

      3. Big Z

        Yeah, I’m feeling the same way. There are a lot of good ways to run a comment section, but “surprise new moderator who enumerates a bunch of new rules that get enforced even before their introduction post, and who also makes it clear that existing rules will be enforced capriciously” is not one of them.

        In particular, “(Stuff like “oh the transphobes will get big mad about this” is fine, because if I do my job right those folks are not commenters anymore.)” is one of those things that seems fine on its face, except for the fact that one of the persistent features of this comment section’s hostility is “If you disagree with me, you must obviously be transphobic/homophobic”.

        I wish Wack’d luck, moderating a commentariat is never easy even when it’s not fairly contentious, but the way they’re approaching this is very different from what I’ve seen be effective in other chat/forum contexts.

        1. Big Z

          Oh, hey, there’s an announcement post after the edit window closed. Imagine I edited all those cautious theys and awkward reuses of “Wack’d” into shes and hers and such.

      4. Sirksome

        Just wanted to say I think your contributions to the comment section have always been positive and sincere. Even if you disagreed with some of the developments they were never from a place of negativity. Also your artwork and occasional jokes were fun to engage with. Hope you’re still here to read this. Good luck, Yoto!

      5. Allen Alberti

        same. this is a bad idea.

      6. Fish

        I stopped commenting years ago because of some anti-plural commenters when Amber’s arc was going on. I’ve kept reading the comments because I’ve enjoyed the familiar faces, I just haven’t been able to tolerate the risk of a flame personally at me. I do hope you stick around; I like seeing your name pop up, even as just a parasocial thing. I see this as a mostly super positive space, but with the risk of random flame that might intensely hurt because of how usually nice most folks are. Maybe the changes will be good after they’ve settled in, and we’ll feel safer on the whole?

    6. Masha

      “There’s some confusion about why comments are getting deleted. Here’s the criteria I’m using–yes, me. I’m your new mod. Hi! Did you guys like semester one Ruth? I did. I liked her a lot.”

      Are you going to call people fatshame people and physically attack them? Because that’s what I remember about early Ruth.

      1. Mitzi B.

        Wack’d is going to enter a sexy lesbian suicide pact with a lucky commenter, more like it

        1. Wack'd

          the people i enter into sexy lesbian suicide pacts with are still not suicidal enough to post here

        2. clif

          The concept of defective sexy lesbian suicide pacts is not one I had previously considered.

      2. Joy

        omg she was an interesting character but she was like… abusive.

        1. Allie_KO

          She also isn’t a real person, so it doesn’t matter that she is. She’s entertaining because she does these things. I don’t think summary murder or fascism are cool, but you’d be hard pressed for me to say Darth Vader wasn’t a great character in the OT. Life is so much better when you stop trying to like characters like they’re real.

    7. Theozilla

      Can I ask why my comment got deleted then? Because as far I far as I can tell it didn’t violate any of those rules, I was just expressing sympathy towards characters and making a comparison towards a film.
      Or was it more deleted as a byproduct of it being a reply to a comment that had been deleted for violating the rules?

      1. Nono

        I think there are some entire comment chains that got deleted because the primary comment was.

        But there are some comments that seemed pretty innocent even of all the “rules” and got deleted too.

      2. Aura

        My guess is that last point, I remember reading the comment earlier and yeah that felt fine and on topic and relevant to me, so I’m guessing it just got removed as a byproduct when something higher up the chain did.

      3. Wack'd

        yeah i can’t find your comment in the deleted bin so it was probably just a causality of war, sorry

        1. Theozilla

          Oh well, thanks for the clarification though.

        2. Coatl

          So that’s why my comment was deleted too?
          Yes, I don’t like Doyce, but I only commented that at least some people remember that not everyone likes the ship, but I didn’t say anything offensive.

        3. Wack'd

          yeah. sorry, genuinely, to both of you.

        4. nadamás

          Might not be offensive but it’s just a dick move and unnecessary. Nobody needs to be told that, they are aware, BELIEVE me.

    8. Aura

      Just want to say I appreciate the effort and wish you success decreasing the toxicity levels

    9. Satin Fantasy

      you know what, i’ve never commented before, for obvious reasons, but let me pop in here to say THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. o7 i’m sure many longtime readers who just avoid the comments entirely won’t see your comment at all, so i wanted to thank you on our behalf. keep doing awesome work!!!

    10. Taffy

      The reddit mods aren’t in the room with us right now.

    11. Seralyna

      thank god, this place was a nightmare. good luck

    12. Bill Erak

      you must not have gone to the DoA reddit at all cuz oh boy if this place was negative, that’s just a kelvin to our celsius, iygwim

      1. Taffy

        At least nobody on this site ever doxxed me and sent a cop to my home, even if I’m sure at least one regular would love to.

      2. eskimolos

        I do indeed gwym, I visited there once and noped out entirely. I thought the QC Reddit was bad, oooof.

    13. Bash

      I approve of this wholeheartedly. Those kinds of comments were EXHAUSTING.

    14. darkoneko

      wow that sure is a way to introduce yourself lol.
      Welcome, and good luck I guess.

    15. DiDi

      Was there ever a mod before?
      Or are you like… the first official one?

      1. Wack'd

        To my knowledge, this is the first time in sixteen years this site has had a moderator besides Willis.

    16. Wack'd

      laughing my ass off that people saw this vanish and thought “oh, guess it was a troll or a vandal”, and not “oh, folks must’ve reported this comment eleven times”

      which, in fairness–how did folks even manage eleven reports, comments automatically get yanked after three

      1. RexLatro

        Well, to be fair to those people it’s pretty confusing to have a site that has up until now been unmodded for *years* and then have a long list of rules posted deep in the comments by someone unfamiliar to the community with no official post, only to have this post vanish and then reappear?

        1. clif

          Well, given it’s hostile tone, I thought it was something that Willis should take a look at, so I hit report. Then I replied with a wall of text considerably longer than the one below and since it was gone at the point I finished, the system refused to take it and all my brilliant words disappeared.

        2. Throwatron

          I’ve made it a lifelong habit to ctrl+A -> ctrl+C anything I’m about to post online that’s longer than a paragraph. It’s a really helpful habit for avoiding frustration!

        3. PilkScientist

          The site hasn’t been unmodded, it’s just been Willis quietly doing the mod work without saying anything the whole time. This worked for banning outright hate speech and such, but moderating for “reducing community rankness” takes a lot more involvement than one person and a slur filter can handle. Also not for nothing, but Wack’d has been in Willis’s comments for decades now, just not so much lately on account of The Way Things Have Been.

        4. John Campbell

          If you’re not familiar with Wack’d, you haven’t been part of the community for long enough. Check the tags on this It’s Walky! strip. Compare gravatar.

      2. Bwitty03

        I’m surprised theres nothing stopping people from getting moderator comments automatically removed

        1. Wack'd

          if you’re surprised you can imagine how i felt

        2. Jay

          This new site is truly held together by super glue and duct tape and I’d have it no other way

      3. eh, whatever

        comments automatically get yanked after three
         
        …I’m… pretty sure that was supposed to be secret in order to prevent abuse. We’ve been told a few times over the years that there is a number above which comments get yanked, but never what it is.

        1. David M Willis

          Nah, that’s the wrong number, don’t worry. 3 is the number of links that a post can have before getting flagged as potential spam. The report number is higher and different.

        2. eh, whatever

          Ah, thank you very much!

    17. clif

      “This place is, like, infamously a cesspit. Everyone agrees.”

      Factually incorrect. In particular, I don’t agree. I’ve found the comment section to be largely a friendly place and I value the friends I’ve made here. I’ve learned a lot, both from people I agreed with and people I disagreed with. Diversity of opinion is a good thing, and while people coming back to make exactly the same point day after day makes me want to wallop them with a rolled up newspaper, this remains a special place. I hope you aren’t going to destroy it. The unfriendly and unwelcoming tone of your rules, more than their content, doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.

      1. Wack'd

        yeah i’ll address the tone thing, if it’s gonna keep coming up, why not. it’s a fair point

        look. my initial plan was to just say nothing and hope folks get the message–after a year of the same “fair” criticism, it is no longer fair, criticism, or welcome. folks would spot a trend in the data and change their posting habits accordingly. what happened instead was an atmosphere of confusion and paranoia. reasonably so! and i left those posts up so people wouldn’t think they were going crazy. (to rex’s point that i deleted posts about this being some sort of outside force or false flag: well, that also creates confusion and paranoia, and also blatantly contradicts the fact that i got the post out of moderation hell.)

        so, i decided to introduce myself. and i’ve been around the block enough times to know that there’s no RIGHT way to say “hey, i’m the guy who’s gonna be deleting your posts, howzit goin.” too soft and people ignore you or accuse you of passive aggression, too harsh and people burn the place down just to spite you. being regarded as a 2004-era forum tryhard seemed like the least bad option. like, at least it’s fun to point and laugh at that guy.

        anyway. folks are saying that this is a nice place, but there’s also folks saying that they were previously scared off the comments or content to lurk because of the way things were run around here. i want this place to be, like. “nicer” is gonna invite the hugboxxing accusations. but i want it to be more interesting, y’know? i know a lot of fans of this comic who are genuinely intelligent. some of them even post here for some reason! not many, but still. i want this comment section to be a place that rewards new and novel thoughts, even negative ones. and more than that i want this to be a place where two parties of conflicting commenters don’t gotta make up derisive nicknames for each other. maybe i don’t want this place to be “nice”, but i do want it to be “chill.” it’s just a comic! hang out! chat! don’t just parrot catchphrases and make everyone miserable.

        see, now i sound like a cool substitute teacher. maybe that’s better than what i had going before, i dunno. i’ve only had this job, like, two days. i’ll figure out what the right balance is. but your lack of confidence is noted, and i’ll definitely be working on how i approach all this.

        1. Shepsquared

          You should have gotten Willis to announce that there was a new moderator and new rules in the announcement box. Anyone could’ve posted and claimed credit for a post being removed, and random comments don’t come across as official.

        2. Wack'd

          willis is running a kickstarter right now! “oh there’s a new moderator” didn’t feel like it rated. and having them roll out the red carpet for me would definitely make me look like a douche.

          that said, you’re right that nothing about this seems terribly professional at face value. another thing to work on for the future.

        3. Masha

          It instantly reminded me of one of Trump’s Law and Order speeches but about a webcomic comment section which was extremely funny but probably not for the intended reasons.

        4. Lumino

          If you’re sincere on trying to do better, allow me to offer a single bit of advice.

          Moderators are supposed to Moderate, not escalate issues.

          “Moderate refers to views, behavior, or quantities that avoid extremes, extravagance, or excessive intensity, maintaining a balanced or middle-of-the-road position. It implies temperance, reasonableness, and often represents a “middle ground” in political, social, or physical contexts.”

          Posting the new rules is fine, but posting them in antagonistic ways is only going to create more backlash and ultimately make things worse. Sure, it’s fun to swing new power around, but it’s ultimately self-defeating.

          If you want a stable relationship in the comments, establish rules and then hold everybody to them, especially yourself. If you’re about to post a comment that YOU would delete if somebody else posted it, then you should think twice before doing so.

        5. eh, whatever

          my initial plan was to just say nothing and hope folks get the message–[…] folks would spot a trend in the data and change their posting habits accordingly. what happened instead was an atmosphere of confusion and paranoia. reasonably so!
           
          Reasonably indeed. I really don’t mean to pile on after the fact, but I think it should be spelled out: if you don’t outright tell people what you want, many of them will guess wrong. Communicating in hints never works for long enough. (This includes, but isn’t limited to, passive aggression.)

        6. Andrusi

          Lumino, you’re mixing homonyms.

      2. RedCat

        Me, I got called a sexual predator when I didn’t think Dorothy telling Joyce that she was going to teach her how to masturbate was a big deal. Which was why I wasn’t around for like a year. And honestly, some of the commenters can still get really and innarpropriately mean.
        TBH the mod’s first comment is not giving me huge hope that this will change, but I guess we’ll see.

      3. Yumi

        I used to have a really positive experience/view of the comment section here, but that’s definitely changed. I don’t know exactly when, though I do associate it with some regular commenters I liked no longer posting here– but that could have been because of the growing hostility. If the moderation helps move the comment section back in the direction of how it was before, that’d be cool. Too early to tell what will happen, though.

    18. nadamás

      I gladly get my comments deleted forever if it means reading the comments makes me want to hit my head against a wall less often!

      1. Dandi Andi

        Amen

      2. Li

        This is where I am, too, alas.
        .
        I’ve had really productive conversations with some of the folks who are loudest about not liking the direction the comic is undeniably going, but in that same time a LOT of readers have been driven away from the comment section here by the overwhelming negativity.
        .
        And the comment section has gotten a lot quieter over time, but not because it’s gotten more positive — MOSTLY because the “hater” contingent had kind of, well, won? And, having won, didn’t have as many people to argue with, and therefore, over time, have had less and less to actually say about the comic that wasn’t just repeating themselves, and… yeah.
        .
        I want to draw a distinction here, too, because the people who have stopped commenting have NOT unanimously been “positive” commenters, but there is a big difference between a comment section losing someone who recognized that they weren’t enjoying the story anymore and left, and that same comment section losing people specifically because they found the experience of reading or participating in that comment section to be uniquely miserable.
        .
        Moderation can only hope to fix one of those problems!

        1. nadamás

          They “won” in the sense a lot of negative people in the internet “win”: By being so exhausting to talk to that people just stop bothering and go somewhere else. It’s winning by default because nobody have the energy to compete anymore.

      3. Throwatron

        lately you keep stealing my brain cell! that’s my thought, I’m sure of it!

        1. nadamás

          Shh it’s fine, go rest those delicious braincells.

        2. Throwatron

          But I only have the oneeeeeeeee!

    19. Ornathe

      Best of luck! I know not everyone’s going to feel all that optimistic about it, but given how much it sometimes stresses me out to read the comments, I’m happy to see some additional moderation on here. I’m sure it’ll lighten Willis’ load considerably as well. Personally, I’m not too bothered by whether or not a few of my comments might get deleted by a stricter mod – I’ll just trust that if they do, it’s because I put my foot in my mouth somewhere, in which case I’d rather have someone moderate it away anyway, since I do get a little stuck in my head about things like that. Having a comment section with a welcoming and enjoyable atmosphere is more important. I’m sure it’ll be a bit of an adjustment period in here, but hopefully it’s a change for the better that makes people feel more comfortable in here in the end.

    20. Chocolatepot

      Speaking as one of the notorious mean mods of r/AskHistorians: NICE. I’m not a regular commenter here, I just check out the comment section when the comic’s been particularly likely to have inspired a flurry of responses analyzing Which Character Is Grossly Unforgivable Today, and … yeah, it merits pruning.

      I think sometimes people forget that you’re not guaranteed the ability to discuss every perceived and subjective flaw with a creator’s work and personality in that creator’s actual space.

    21. Leaf

      I haven’t been commenting because I didn’t want my name associated with whatever the hell has been going on in the comments section, so I for one welcome our new Ruth overlord.

    22. Jay

      Sounds good. I was already commenting less but this will simply help me not be a toxic little bongo.

      I don’t blame Willis either, you’re right this could be a p heated place sometimes, I’ll admit my own guilt in making it such. As a writer I can only imagine how grating it must be to consistently come to your own comment section to be shit on.

      However I also take back nothing and everything I said still stands. But I’m a loser nobody so who cares what I gotta say.

      Glad to have you here Wack’d!

      Welcome to our pit. I hope you’re able to make Willis experience a more pleasant one.

      (inb4. No, I’m not leaving. I know when to shut up and just be more positive)

    23. Mr D

      I get the feeling that tomorrow (And probably for a few weeks from now on!) you should re-post the rules as one of first (if not THE first) comment on every comic. They probably could use some more elaborating, I guess?
      On top of Willis maybe adding rules to the “Read before posting”, or making an actual announcement.
      The comment section is, after all, a pretty big part of the strip,

      1. Mr D

        (Apparently the Edit button doesn’t exist anymore??)
        Oh hey Willis already made a post about it.

    24. Li

      Heh. Good luck.
      .
      It is very funny to me personally to see a few folks laying claim to longevity in this comment section also react to you like you’re a new person. It’s been a while since you’ve commented on DoA specifically, sure, but Willis still regularly refers to you by name when talking about the strip both here and on BlueSky…
      .
      (Note: I’m not saying anyone is ?? lying about how long they’ve been reading Willis’s comics, only that it adds a funny dimension to any comment that might have been veering into “I was here first” territory or otherwise only just refraining from telling Wack’d to get off their metaphorical lawns. ONE of us has been around the block so many times that Willis regularly asks her to confirm a fact about their own continuity, and it’s not you or me, hah.)

      1. Wack'd

        yeah i mean–i am absolutely one of those people who stopped posting because of what this place became

    25. zee

      Huh. Think I just had low-key trauma flashbacks to a discord group I joined back in the pandemic full of non black POC who had clearly never met a black person before. With this kinda doberman watchdog kinda moderation vibe. And like you could tell they were trying to be super woke but also went behind my back to say that my opinions on the n word were “under developed” and showed a lack of education or some shit like that- mind you I’m a black woman, who went to a Caribbean university, taking multiple classes that analyzed the legacy of slavery and colonialism. And then they treated me like a rabid chimpanzee when I got rightfully angry at that and other micro/macro aggressions.
      .
      Anyway not saying any of that is gonna be the case here, just. Realizing in real time that I guess this tone is kind of a trigger for me and I have an inherent distrust of people who use it, esp ig if they’re non black/I don’t know they’re black. A me problem for sure I’m just rambling about irrelevant shit like usual. Just. Combined with some of the legitimate triggering shit from the storyline and moreso the comments. Yeah this is gonna take a minute to adjust to and get comfortable again. And maybe people prefer that idk, I know I have a tendency to bongo and moan, tis my nature, complaining is the only way I know how to bond with people. And I oughta work on that. But yeah. This is. Interesting.

      1. NGPZ

        hey, hey, this coming from a place of MORE than valid concern.
        @Joy themselves said above they’ve had similar experiences, heck I’ve found myself walking on eggshells before in some primarily white discord servers for this shit, to the point to which I just didn’t feel comfortable showing myself there anymore

        no mod is free of racial bias, it’s important to get this kinda stuff out in the open lest POC here find ourselves disproportionately silenced on account of our vernacular makin (mostly white) folk here “”uncomfortable”” 👀

        signed, your Friendly Neighborhood Jewish Anarchist

        1. zee

          I guess i hope wack’d takes all this into consideration? Joys comments especially they were really well thought out points. I’m sure she’s a fine person and all but. I don’t know her from Adam. And Willis is also as white as the day is long. So there’s a lot of room for racial blind spots there that could have splashback on us. Guess now’s a perfect test tho, Sarah’s on screen and being grumpy about the white girls, which is like catnip for the racist readers. Guess we’ll be seeing how good our new mod is at spotting those guys

      2. apocryphascribe

        Agreed on all counts. I was already taking a step back, and while I am happy to see a moderator stepping up, the tone is definitely taking me back to having similar experiences in my university days. Regardless, I’m wishing her the best of luck wrangling this comment section into shape.

    26. Thag Simmons

      Well these comments have certainly needed a moderator. Managing communities sucks at the best of times, let alone when that community is dedicated to discussing your life’s work.
      &nsbp;
      I don’t love the uncertainty. I’m not sure what the penalties for breaking the new rules are, and I don’t have a great sense of what the boundaries are, which means posting’s going to feel like a bit of a minefield until things get settled.

    27. Dwampre Scorrigank

      Thanks for taking up this torch! Hope this change works out well.
       
      As a long-time (decade) reader/short-time commenter who avoided joining for years due in part to social anxiety, I am looking forward to this hopefully being a less stressful place to conversate. There are other things to talk about than judging characters and the author and other commenters, and I hope breaking those collective habits will make it easier for us to take up those other discussions. I will continue to do my part by making terrible puns asa I think of them.
       
      Would it be possible to get the report button on last-level comments? Seems it would make things easier to mod.

    28. B J O’Shea

      I for one welcome our new mods!

    29. Fart Captor

      🫡

    30. Dragon

      > (Stuff like “oh the transphobes will get big mad about this” is fine, because if I do my job right those folks are not commenters anymore.)
      Honestly, I’d prefer if those get deleted too. That kind of comment is just as shallow and obnoxious as a lot of the stuff today and tomorrow’s rules seem to be targeted to curtail, and carving that one out specifically feels… shallow and crass. If it’s “fine” because that group of commenters are already gone, it also doesn’t need to be commented on.
      Obviously it’s fine to moderate with an ideological bent, but at least *try* to be equal in how it’s enforced — it shouldn’t be that hard for the good guys to keep the moral high ground. (As someone on the left, it’s been a continual bugbear of mine how much more time and energy is spent directing hate at acceptable targets rather than actually doing anything *positive*.)

      1. NGPZ

        “(As someone on the left, it’s been a continual bugbear of mine how much more time and energy is spent directing hate at acceptable targets rather than actually doing anything *positive*.)”

        RIGHT?!?!?!?!?! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

        I reckon the mess our country is in has gotten as bad as it has in no small part because of over-indulgence in — and I say this with LOVE — the White Liberal Fantasy of “putting people in their place” 😑

        if I really need to say it out loud — it sends an AWFUL message when we spend more time screaming at bigots and trying to get them back than actually trying to win back their minority targets

        1. Dwampre Scorrigank

          My thoughts are complicated but I basically cosign this, and the parent comment as well.

    31. Seashells

      First of all, thank you, this was desperately needed and I have often avoided the comments and even taken breaks from the comic a number of times because of the repetitive toxicity in the comments. I have often also found myself wondering how in the world Willis deals with this sort of thing because I would be so stressed so, much sympathy for having to navigate that situation for so long.

      Second, while I know you already read and took to heart the feedback people offered, I wanted to offer a couple tiny nuggets of advice if it’s helpful at all? I was a mod on a forum for about a decade that also went through a pretty nasty toxic period so…
      1. Just, hang in there because it can get rough. And no matter WHAT you do there will be people upset about it. I found the best approach was just to admit I was learning on the job &trying my best, and remain open to feedback when it seemed constructive (which is exactly what you did already *thumbsups*). It’s often a thankless job so make sure to find a way to get a mental break from it/find some positivity to immerse yourself in for a bit of it’s getting to be to much.

      2. Not always but often I’ve seen communities start to emulate the tone of the mods if they’re active commenters. (Otherwise the tone just tends to shift to the loudest/most active commenters.) I know you’re trying out different tonal approaches and I don’t know if you’ve settled on one yet but my rec (which, please feel free to ignore, I am certainly no universal expert) is to use the sort of tone you’re hoping to see others use in the comments and hopefully that will help a little in encouraging the overall tonal shift you’re aiming for.

      And lastly, I wish you good luck! I don’t comment in here much these days (just sometimes catch up every now and then) but I can already see a change from skimming more recent comment sections, looking like the discussion is shifting towards something healthier and enjoyable again.

      1. Seashells

        (Also I apologize yet again for the lack of paragraph breaks in my reply! It was working last night…I think. dunno what hapoened)…

  40. Suet

    a big-off, then?
     
    “boyfriends come and go”

  41. Spira

    I feel like Sarah is overdue for a crash out and I’m getting the sense we’re about to see it happen

    1. Taffy

      I’d love to see at least one character go ballistic in the near future. Somebody needs to have a field day with a rocket launcher, and if Dina isn’t gonna do it, Sarah may as well.

      1. Mitzi B.

        Dina did a wrestling throw on Joyce just a few strips ago, was that not enough?

        1. Taffy

          No, and I believe if you look in the comments of that strip, you’ll find me saying Dina didn’t go far enough. Until and unless a rocket launcher is involved, no rampage will sate my desire as a long-time reader.

  42. Tilly

    I’m not shocked that this is an opinion that Jocelyn has.

    Like, from her perspective, Dorothy is a significant reason why she now has a younger sister who accepts her whole-heartedly, and she knows Dorothy was there for Joyce during the highs and lows of the last 15+ years of this series, being patient and understanding, when she couldn’t be there for her.

    Obviously the way they got together wasn’t ideal, and I’m not saying that Jocelyn’s perspective is uncritically correct, but I understand why she’d gloss over the cheating – she doesn’t *really* know Joe or Walky at all, but she knows her gayby sister has never been in a better place.

    1. jabbingQuirker

      I’d say that Becky coming out also had a strong hand to play in that but Dorothy (as well as many others) also did a lot of work in helping de-program Joyce

  43. Mitzi B.

    Watching the comment count go up and down on this strip, like waves on the shore

  44. Shepsquared

    “College boyfriends come and go. But college girlfriends? Slap a ring on them in the first week and you’re done.”

    1. Taffy

      I was here.

  45. Maddie B

    I only very occasionally dip into the comments, but I’m glad to see there’s a new sheriff in town.

    Anyway… As glad as I am that Sarah has Joe’s back in these trying times, I do hope she realizes that Joyce and Dorothy’s feelings towards one another had to be let out of the bottle.

  46. Corey C.

    Somehow I think Jocelyn is primarily responsible for Joyce’s Romance Novel Brain. The way she so casually dismissed Joe and every other guy Joyce liked in favor of Dorothy being the perfect soul mate, it’s like she EXPECTED Joyce to rewrite her personal history so she was in love with Dotty the first time she saw her.

    As for Jocelyn’s reaction to Sarah calling herself Joyce’s “other big sister”… Anyone see “Love Hurts?” I’m reminded of the scene where the protagonist’s brother (also the Big Bad of the movie) has a conversation with the protag’s boss, whom he loves like a brother. The boss deeply cares about the protagonist, even when the brother tells him about all the murders the protag did before being hired. The brother finally tells the boss that he respects their relationship, and wishes he had such a kind hearted boss… and then kills the boss for DARING to call the protagonist “brother.” Let’s hope Jocelyn doesn’t invite Sarah to drinks…

  47. Taffy

    In light of the new moderation rules (which I assume will be elaborated on and located conveniently in the “Read before Posting” section of the website), I promise never to teleport through anyone’s screen and murder them with any form of bladed/blunt/chemical weapon, firearm, poison, dangerous psychic power, automobile, cement, booby trap, electronic device, sorcery, wizardry, witchcraft, or any other method.

    1. clif

      Don’t make promises you can’t keep.

    2. yak

      This is outrageous! A violation of your basic rIghts!

    3. Throwatron

      I think this is a bridge too far. You are the only one I trust to kill with impunity.

  48. Holly

    If I recall, Jocelyne and Joe got on pretty well. It would therefore be hilarious if, after saying this, the two of them did end up together (and additionally ironic if, in the spirit of rivals, Sarah objects to the pairing then later realises it is because she is jealous. Then finds out about her little sister and Joe.)

    Or at least it’d be nice and dramatic! What I am saying is, I’ve got my popcorn ready, this plotline has potential for great drama.

    1. Taffy

      Didn’t Joe say some stuff about Jocelyne that could be reasonably interpreted as transphobic? I’m not gonna bother hunting for the strip, but it was shortly after she came out to Joyce. I feel like Carla came up during that conversation as well. Joe may have some more growing to do before he tries dating Jocelyne.

      1. Mitzi B.

        I know Joe was weird about Carla, but I dunno that he had anything bad to say about Jocelyne.

        Anyhow if Joe takes a shot at Jocelyne I’m crossing the fourth wall and breaking them up myself. Horrible couple. No good.

      2. Dwampre Scorrigank

        I think you’re thinking of the conversation that starts here between Joe and Joyce

      3. clif

        I don’t think so. I’ve been known to miss stuff, but nothing comes to mind.

      4. thejeff

        Yeah, it was awkward as hell. He kind of avoided crossing any red lines, but it was all red flags.

      5. Jay

        No.

        As with all things related to Joyce, Joe was pretty immediately accepting and even defensive for Jocelyne

        1. thejeff

          Reread that conversation Dwampre linked above.
          It starts with Joe saying “I’m not gonna be fucking mean” and gets worse from there.

        2. Yotomoe

          I feel like that conversation is fine. Joe’s a bit defensive and jokey, sure. But he’s also kinda suddenly being told “I expected you to be transphobic”.

        3. Li

          What @thejeff said.
          .
          Now, I think Joe can come back from that! But it was not a perfect response, it was just a very polite to Jocelyne’s face because he’s not a monster response. Which is pretty consistent with Joe’s whole deal: he has always known he didn’t want to be a bad guy! His definition of “bad guy”, though, is often too broad to be as useful as it could be.

        4. Cassie

          @thejeff I did reread that. Joe was crass, as expected from Joe in general, but it was generally in response to a line of questioning from Joyce that’s kinda weird tbh. Like “wait why wasn’t Carla on your ‘do list’ are you a secret transphobe” to someone who was just kind and accepting towards your sister is. A Choice.

          As for “I’m not gonna be mean” I don’t see the issue there? For one thing it’s in response to “thanks for being accepting, i didn’t know what to expect from you,” which is a subtle accusation of transphobia, and for another I’ve known plenty of people who are lovely and supportive and kind who, if you said “thanks for being that way” to them, would awkwardly shrug it off with “well i’m not gonna be an ass, y’know?”

          Honestly the worst thing that could be said of Joe is that he didn’t know who Carla is, and I’m not entirely surprised given that they’ve only appeared in the same strip like 3 times.

        5. Dandi Andi

          @Cassie Read it again.
          .
          1) Joe just complimented Joyce on handling it well, so it’s not out of pocket for Joyce to resound similarly.
          2) Joe had a list of *every woman on campus* ranked according to their fuckability. The *only* exclusion was the one out and proud trans woman. That would make me wary as well.
          3) Joe then proceeded to not even know who Carla was. Given his specific history, that feels like an admission that if he didn’t see her as fuckable, he didn’t see her at all.
          4) I get what you mean about “I want going to be mean”, but it isn’t terribly reassuring in this case. When my mother thanks me for helping her with chores that she struggles with, I usually respond “Want gonna say no. You raised me better.” But we might also imagine the same deflection coming from Hank. He clearly doesn’t *actually* approve of Joyce dating Dorothy, but he wasn’t going to stick a gun in her face about it. There’s a wide gap between “actually sees and respects trans women as women” and “won’t harass my girlfriend’s sister about her genitals.”

        6. Yumi

          *If* we believe that Joe didn’t know who Carla was, which I personally don’t. He was hard in deflecting at that point, and I think that was just another deflection. It seems like he had everyone else in that hall on there, and Carla’s not exactly subtle.

        7. Jay

          In relation to Carla not being on the “Do-List.” Call ME transphobic but I don’t understand what’s offensive about going “I would rather not bone trans people, but I respect them in all other aspects.”
          –
          I can also see that being something someone wouldn’t want to admit when talking about their girlfriends newly discovered trans sister which could lead to a dude stumbling over himself trying to make excuses.
          –
          That’s all I have to say on that matter.

        8. Cassie

          @Dandi Andi:

          1. Complimenting Joe on handling it well is one thing. Expecting him to be transphobic when he’s given no indications of why he would be is another. And the whole “he complimented her first and expected her to struggle” thing would be unfair given that Joyce noted that she’s basically been cool with the transes, hip, lit, and woke-pilled (her words, as you may recall) for approximately 24 hours when Jocelyne came out (again, her admission). He has every reason to believe she would struggle; she’s been unlearning a lifetime of hateful rhetoric and has had some major stumbles along the way. Joe’s been a misogynistic dick, but generally chill about queer people.

          2. IU Bloomington has a current enrollment of over 48,000 students. Assuming half are women, that’s 24,000 women for Joe to rate. Joe did not have a ranking of every woman on campus because that’s quite literally not possible or reasonable for him to do, and there’s no way that Carla is the only trans woman who is out and proud. You may as well call the whole group transmisogynistic for only knowing one trans woman, and that would be patently ridiculous.

          3. This argument doesn’t even make sense. He doesn’t know who Carla even is but he somehow knows she’s trans and sees her as a man? She transitioned as a teenager in high school. Do you realize how effective that is at avoiding the various gendered markers that make a trans woman clocky? I don’t think there’s any way he even knows she’s trans; my guess is that he’s literally seen her a handful of times at most, and those after he started changing his ways. Remember, even Joyce didn’t know Carla is trans until the day before Jocelyne came out, and Joyce’s mom bought 30 copies of the magazines with Carla’s coming out to destroy them; you’d think she would’ve heard about it from her mom or something and instead she somehow still remained ignorant.

          4. Well, when Joe belongs to and is active in a conservative religious group that actively preaches against queer people, I’ll worry about “I’m not gonna be mean” meaning “I want to be though.” There’s no reason to read anything of the sort from his reactions to Jocelyne.

          I don’t think there’s anything substantial in there that could reasonably paint Joe as transphobic. Even the way he handles Joyce’s immediate thought of “I need to be performative in my contrition when i mess up” shows a great deal of respect towards trans people, because I don’t know a single one who’s comfortable with people making a show out of it like “i messed up and am the worst person ever.” It just feels like there’s a lot of digging into an accusation Joyce made based on spurious evidence at best and that honestly feels a bit like projection on Joyce’s part.

        9. Cassie

          @Jay

          “Call ME transphobic but I don’t understand what’s offensive about going ‘I would rather not bone trans people, but I respect them in all other aspects.'”

          I’m assuming this comes from a place of honest ignorance, so I’m not gonna call you transphobic, but I’d also recommend you consider if it’s really a good idea to start with “call me transphobic” as if you don’t particularly care if you are or not. Like. You just said that to a trans girl, mate; maybe don’t say things that are likely to put the people you’re talking to on alert from the outset?

          To answer your implied question, it’s generally tied to the person saying it believing that trans people are not the gender we say we are. Some people, partiularly TERFs, will use “genital preference” as a way to say it, which usually boils down to “I see you only as your genitals” and that’s just gross no matter who it’s said to. Others, usually men due to the way manhood is tied to sexuality in patriarchal societal views, will worry that being attracted to a trans person of their preferred gender changes their sexuality (for instance “fellas, is it gay to fuck a trans woman?”).

          I’m not saying that a person has to be attracted to any individual trans person, for the record; you can find someone unattractive for other reasons regardless of cis/trans status. But the statement that trans people are the gender we say we are (“trans women are women and trans men are men”) can’t really be reconciled with excluding trans people as a group from your dating pool. If that’s a thing someone finds themself doing it’s something they may want to examine.

        10. Yumi

          The Do-List wasn’t a list of every woman Joe wanted to have sex with. It was a list of every woman he interacted with (or in some cases, maybe just saw) and *how much* he wanted to have sex with them. It included women he gave low “scores” to.

        11. Cassie

          Why do the genitals matter if the gender matches what you’re attracted to? Sex doesn’t have to involve both people’s genitals. We’re not even discussing a specific trans person that you may or may not be attracted to, either. We’re just talking trans people as a class. Your values are apparently that you can exclude this class based on genitals only. You are saying it is acceptable to reduce people to their genitals for the purpose of deciding if you want to fuck them or not. What you have said is transphobic, and a person that says and believes things that are transphobic is transphobic, regardless what they say and believe about their values as a whole.

          Likewise, calling a trans woman “a MTF” is just. No. Don’t do that. MTF may descrbie the direction in which I am transitioning but calling me, or any trans woman (including imaginary rhetorical ones) that is akin to calling women “females.”

          I think this is gonna be my last comment on this matter; at this point I’m just uncomfortable speaking to you in general.

        12. Jay

          Also I didn’t know you were trans in that particular way, shit that sounds bad too but idk any better way to word this one. I was just using it as an example because, well….the obvious

        13. Yotomoe

          Its a hard subject to broach. I do not think sexual attraction is something people can just turn off and on or change. Thats what I’ve always believed, its why I’ve always pushed back on the rhetoric that being gay is not a choice. But now the concept of a binary has been eroded and its hard to navigate your preferences without sounding like you are denying a person their identity. Joe’s line about “bestowing womanhood with his boner” is super crass but like…I get it. My attraction to a person is not a confirmation or rejection of their gender anymore than my lack of attraction to someone is. There are like hundreds of things that are both green lights and red lights in a potential partner and while some things may matter less for some people it could potentially be a deal breaker for others. And its hard to balance your allyship and your lizard brain so its usually better to just not bring it up.

        14. Mitzi B.

          “call me transphobic but-” yeah, I’ll call you that. Every other time someone outright states they’re not attracted to a class of people, it’s a form of prejudice against that class of people.

        15. Yotomoe

          *why I pushed back on the rhetoric that being gay is a choice
          Shit thats what I get for typing this out at work.

        16. Dandi Andi

          @Cassie
          I am not trying to convince you that Joe is definitely a transphobe. The question was about if the things he said could reasonably be seen as transphobic. So let’s keep that in perspective first.
          .
          As for Joyce bringing it up, it really is just a normal human conversation. “I’m glad you took that so well.” “Yeah. You, too.” it’s perfectly normal even without any further context. As for her specific concern about Joe, the simple fact that they had never discussed it before was reason enough. People can always surprise you. I’ve got uncles whose funerals I won’t go to because they surprised me. But Joyce DID have a specific cause for concern in the Do List.
          .
          Yes yes. I know I said campus when I should have said hall. I’ll flagellate myself for it later. But it doesn’t change the argument. Characters commented at time that it appeared to be all of the women in their hall. The list was expansive and comprehensive enough that Carla’s absence was noteworthy.
          .
          I don’t need to be told how early transition impacts results. Every fucking mirror is a blunt reminder of what puberty did to me. But that doesn’t mean Joe couldn’t know that she’s trans. Even if he couldn’t spot it himself, it wouldn’t be beyond the pale to assume he saw her, rated her, and Danny or a workout buddy or even Mary was near enough and recognized her and told him. It’s easy to imagine. “Check out the red head on skates! Easy 9.” “Oh, that’s Carla Rutten, the trans woman from the news. I heard she was going here.” And that’s that. He doesn’t put her on the list, doesn’t bother to remember her name or to ever think about her again. It is not at all far fetched. But I can even cede the point because the alternative is worse. Worse is that he does know who Carla is but doesn’t want to have to explain why she isn’t on the list.
          .
          And you don’t need to be affiliated with a hate group to have shitty opinions about trans people. And people can always surprise you. If you’re concerned that someone might harbor homophobic views, saying “Well, I wasn’t going to be mean to her” is not explicit reassurance that they don’t. So, if you were someone who saw Carla’s omission from the list as being a cause for concern, then this statement does not help because it also happens to be how you spin “I don’t hate trans people, I just think they should stay out of athletics.”

        17. Cassie

          @Dandi Andi
          I dunno. Nothing you’ve said is impossible or even implausible, but I don’t really read it that way, even after flipping through the comments on those strips. Maybe I’m reading it wrong; maybe not. Unless Willis pops up to say for sure, I don’t think there’s a definitive answer.

        18. Li

          @Cassie: Willis has actually come into the comments to explicitly clarify that Joe’s list was not just a list of women he’s attracted to and that leaving Carla off the list WAS about her being trans, so.
          .
          @Jay and Yotomoe: please relax, nobody wants either of you to date anyone you don’t wanna date. The problem comes solely from cis people who are nominally attracted to women or men, and then go, “but NOT if that [woman/man] is trans, because gross, that’s ACTUALLY a [man/woman].”
          .
          Which is absurd, because nobody is attracted to every single person of a given gender, so you wouldn’t think transphobes would feel the need to so loudly make their presumed lack of attraction to trans folks into anybody else’s problem. And Yet.

      6. yak

        Joe didn’t consider Carla a possible target of his misogynistic do-list gaze.

        I think probably what happened is he only considered someone a candidate for the list if P.I.V. sex is possible, and he also didn’t really think about it. His responses in the conversation indicate that he still doesn’t really want to think about it. He’s very neutral through the whole thing.

        So yeah he does need growing up before dating a trans woman. OTOH Jocelyn seems like the type to go “I could fix him!”

        1. Mitzi B.

          Bestowing Womanhood With My Boner: A Dumbing of Age Pornographique

        2. Sirksome

          I think anyone calling out Joe for his past behavior with his creepy list and being even more creepy for being transphobic is totally valid. Part of growing as a person is owning up to your past mistakes. That being said I think he also deserves the same chance anyone has to actually develop his thoughts and opinions and I think because he’s young and dumb like most of the cast he never actually did develop any real thoughts on his treatment of trans woman. Honestly neither did Joyce which is why she was also fairly cringe when she learned of Carla even if it was in a supportive and over correct way. I think that conversation where Joyce confronted him about Carla’s problematic exclusion from his list and that she was worried he might not be cool around her sister was possibly the first time he ever thought of any of that. Him basically putting his foot in his mouth is understandable and if it’s a red flag that’s fair but I think he deserves the chance to actually form a thought too. Grow as a person.

        3. thejeff

          He definitely deserves the chance to grow and I’d really like to see that topic revisited with him. Because I’d actually like to see him grow.

          But as is so often the case with Joe, many commenters wind up defending Joe as he is and waving away all the red flags.

        4. Whirlakitty

          Can’t seem to reply to a comment which is already a reply I guess?
          I’m trying to reply to Sirksome and “Part of growing as a person is owning up to your past mistakes”.
          Joe hasn’t remotely done that yet. I don’t think he’s begun to realize how much his list may have hurt people. Aside from Penny losing her job WE don’t even know what the results of been, and he sure hasn’t bothered to care about that. He was condescendingly arrogant to Rachel without even pausing to think that maybe the list incident severely hurt one of her friends – IRL, a list like that “going viral” could easily lead to someone getting bullied out of school or to self-harm.
          When he decided his girlfriend and her best friend were in love with each other and hiding their feelings, instead of trying to talk to Joyce about it, he went to Dorothy (who did NOT like him) and proceed to bully and be condescending to her (seeing a pattern here) in an attempt to convince her to go confront choice, probably in hopes of being in a polycue.
          And then when Joyce has been assaulted, shot at, tear-gassed and kissed a girl, Joe doesn’t even bother to address the first three despite that being a bunch of pretty awful stuff to go through. He just acts smug about knowing she “cheated” when he literally tried to make that happen.

        5. Dwampre Scorrigank

          accidental report, my bad. I guess it warrants asking, do you still only see reports if they’re a certain threshold now that you’re actively modding?
           
          @whirlakitty: comments only go four levels deep now.
           
          I agree that Joe is growing and deserves that chance (and I look forward to watching the ups and downs of said growth), but anyone would be smart to be cautious about trusting former-future-zuckerberg just a few months after he stopped the list. With an audience-eye-view we see more trustworthiness than Rachel, for example, yet it’s still not like he’s perfect (pretty sure if he was he’d have to leave the comic for Dumbed of Age) and it’s still only been a short while since he decided to start working on himself, so any backsliding is possible.

  49. Pintsize

    I’m glad Jocelyn is around to mellow Sarah out a little

  50. Liara

    Maybe finally this comment section will now be a place worth commenting under again

  51. Bwitty03

    huh, do nondeleted comments under deleted ones still cound towards the comments count displayed at the top?

  52. GUIGUI

    No, Amber was instrumental in this. Jocelyne was more of a catalyst.

  53. Rimwalker55

    Sarah still very much a Friend of Joe. :-)
    Jocelyne seems to be living vicariously through Joyce a little. What is it about the Brown girls that makes them want to “bag a Dorothy”?

    1. Mitzi B.

      They like their skinny white chicks, I dunno

  54. Zaxares

    Now that I think about it, didn’t she also try (and succeed!) to break Jacob and Raidah up so he could hook up with Sarah, only to wind up falling for him herself? Now, Raidah’s a real piece of work, but that still doesn’t justify doing something immoral, even more so since it was just for a selfish reason (either Joyce’s or Sarah’s) in the end.

    I do like Joyce and I think she does have good intentions at heart, but you know what they say about good intentions and roads… She still has a LOT to learn.

    1. Newlland(Henryvolt)

      I look back on it and I think about how she had him for a day and she ruined it.

    2. Shepsquared

      Yeah, I was really hoping we’d explore that when she hooked up with Dorothy and kind of repeated all the same stuff, but there’s been zero self reflection and zero will from other characters to point it out. Jacob said nothing, Joe said nothing,m Sarah didn’t bring it up…

      1. Sarah Lea

        I’m just honestly confused that this many people expect even relatively casual friends (say, Jacob toward Joyce) to just spout off their opinions on others actions (positive or negative) at all, let alone seem to expect them to lecture/police them.
        –
        In my college experience, I knew only two people, max, who amongst the three of us would be that bold/open to each other that way.
        –
        The people you walk to class with (and/or roommates with) rarely knew enough about the details and nuance of your life to pop off informatively, and if someone tried anyway, they rarely remained a walking friend.

      2. deliverything

        While Raidah wasn’t mentioned, it feels obligatory to link to http://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/hushesandmumbles/

  55. Jerna

    Sarah: “So you’re the one making Joyce gay!!”
    Jocelyne: “Yes, and with the powers vested in me, I made you gay as well.”
    Sarah: “Damn, wanna make out?” :D
    Jocelyne: “Hell yeah!!” :D

  56. thejeff

    One of the things that irks me a little bit about the argument in this strip is that “college girlfriends come and go as well”, but Jocelyne (and Willis?) are treating “snag a Dorothy” as something more somehow.
    She’s still just a college romance. She was a friend first, but that doesn’t mean it’s True Love.

  57. Sajuuk-Khar

    I think people are missing the point.

    The point is that all the Brown children want to fuck Dorothy. Joyce is fucking Dorothy, Jocelyne wants to fuck Dorothy, Jordan will want to fuck Dorothy, and John is (I believe strongly) married to a bizarro-tradwife clone of Dorothy.

    1. Mitzi B.

      At this point *I* wanna fuck Dorothy, see what all the fuss is about

      1. Sajuuk-Khar

        It’s gotta be either the glasses and freckles or a tongue so dexterous she puts Venom and Monkey D. Luffy to shame.

        1. Skychrono

          Oh god my eyes.

        2. thejeff

          Sadly, she probably lacks Robin’s magic fingers.

  58. nadamás

    She isn’t even here???

    1. zee

      That last line was a little. Irking. The glaze is having the opposite of the intended effect, like when you’re being told to like something you don’t care for. It is in fact making dotty less likable by proxie

      1. nadamás

        That’s dumb.

      2. Skychrono

        I agree, and I would think it was intentional (that, say, Jocelyn had a crush on Dorothy or something equally dramatic) if we had been given any signs that pointed to that.
        I wouldn’t say I hate Dorothy, but the glazing does make me think less of her from a meta perspective. Similar to people calling something well-liked “underrated,” the forced shifting of the bar creates an Uncanny Valley effect.

      3. zee

        Look twin, if I already don’t like maroon 5 and they keep playing the same damn maroon 5 song on the only radio station I otherwise like I’m gonna start finding them more annoying than I did before. Human nature is dumb idk what to tell ya

      4. Whirlakitty

        You’re taking it that way and not as “Joyce and Jocelyn seem to have an awful lot in common, maybe they have same ‘type’ as well?”
        I notice she didn’t exactly not notice Ethan as well when they first met…she’s since said she thought she was ace before and has now a flood of attraction. Wouldn’t be surprised if she was into him too now.

  59. nadamás

    First, please stop with the paladin vs sicko shit it stopped being cute a while ago.
    Second if you going to do at least use it correctly, the “relationship paladins” is the side that is against Joyce and Dorothy for cheating, the “sickos” are the ones you are referring to here.

  60. esoteric pastry

    Really cool to see a moderator step up! This place has been unapproachable for months.

    Was wondering if the tags & transcript could go under the navigation buttons so the buttons have a consistent position on page load?

  61. eh, whatever

    I still there’s a lot of… complexity regarding this issue to come in the comic over the next few months. Or years.

  62. apocryphascribe

    Just commenting to say: it’s about time we got a comment moderator, and I’m glad Joyce (aka the correct option) is winning the poll. Showers don’t count unless I’m being melted alive like Doom from Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

  63. Spaceman Spiff

    Welcome, Wack’d! only partially familiar with you from Willis reposts but you seem all right. This place is undermoderated and even if there is a messy period of transition I think we’ll move in the right direction

  64. Arianod

    Sarah is very emphatically Not Amused.

  65. Rimwalker55

    No, not delete worthy at all. You make very valid points. At this point in their story Joe and Joyce don’t fully realize each other’s value. Joe could not be what he is now without Joyce, just as Joyce could not be where she is now without Joe. Their story still projects into the future and could be a very beautiful thing even if they don’t become forever partners (but I have unrealistic hopes).
    There may be some foreshadowing in the Incelerator scene. Joe says “I’m finally here when this stuff happens to you …” to Joyce and rushes to defend her. He’s got the right instincts, and I don’t think he’ll be written out.

  66. Skychrono

    You’re correct, for what it’s worth. Either this is intentional drama (hopefully), where characters do Less Good things that lead to More Drama and then Resolutions and Revelations, and not something done half-assed. Since I’ve been reading Willis for decades, I’m going to keep reading believing that it’s the former instead of the latter. He used to do that with Aliens, now he’s doing it with Relationships. That’s fine.
    But that doesn’t mean that any of the strips on the way to the revelations feel good. Strips like this feel bad. But again – the goal of a daily strip isn’t that EVERYthing feels good, it’s that there is something funny or notable everyday and eventually it feels good as a collection.

    And people should NOT need to feel like they need to pray that they aren’t struck down after their posts.

  67. Rectilinear Propagation

    I really hope Sarah describes this conversation to someone else later because Sarah responding to Jocelyne saying, “We can both be her big sister”, with, “Joyce ended up cheating on your watch!”, is hilarious. I want someone to point out how goofy that is in universe.

    Comment moderation! Excellent news.

    I know that there are people who are going to complain about moderation no matter what, but I’m still a little surprised at some of the responses considering:
    – This is Willis’ web site, not social media. There really shouldn’t have ever been an expectation that everyone can say anything.
    – The rules are only asking people to stop bashing the comic, stop bashing the author, and stop being a bigot. This is incredibly reasonable. More importantly, these are not new rules.

    1. RexLatro

      I feel that (at least from what I’ve read from others and posted myself) the main issue isn’t so much the expectation that there are now rules and that they are to be followed, but rather the delivery of the news of a new mod and the fairly antagonistic manner in which this was delivered. While I understand that there may be the impulse to establish themselves strongly in what they feel to be a hostile space (at least in how they described the current forum), the fact that someone with the power to effectively shut down and delete conversations while others cannot and that this person feels comfortable doing so for a variety of highly subjective reasons (again, at least going off what they posted last night) is pretty uncool. Definitely feels less Ruth, and more like…Sydney Yus?

      1. Throwatron

        I think this is kinda the crux of it. I get people being immediately concerned that Wack’d came on with a hard-nosed tone about moderating, because nobody likes a power-tripping moderator in any space. But, we need to be honest…this comment section has come to deserve that sort of engagement. None of us still commenting are being very meek towards each other, when communication breaks down. The response is very much in line with the timbre of the community at this point.

        1. RexLatro

          Personally, I think the main issue is the huge divide that was created in this fandom going back to the whole “Paladin/Sicko” labels being placed (at least in my mind felt encouraged at the very beginning) on those who had differing views on the current storyline. It pretty much split the fandom into two camps with both feeling like the other side isn’t listening to their opinions or feeling heard while more passionate/extreme elements from both further stirring the pot. I’ve hovered between the Reddit and here over this period and seeing two vastly differing takes on the same comic has been surprising. I also feel that bringing in a mod in a space that has never really *been* moderated before with such a…strong introduction is just going to further this divide. Like, I get that there has been a lot of strong talk and people who have different tolerance levels for discussion have felt put out. At the same time it seems that people who feel they have legitimate frustrations with the current storyline, characters acting out of character for themselves, people of colour venting frustrations about how its the characters of colour being given negative roles/traits in the story, trans and bi people feeling hurt by what they view as negative representation, by bringing in a moderator who claims to use Ruth as a role model sounds like to me an effort to limit conversation to one particular point of view

  68. Zamperla

    I for one think these comments should be ruled with a damn iron fist. People here suck, badly. The other day I saw someone ask why it was ‘okay for willis to be snarky but WE get DELETED’, on Willis’ webcomic, under willis’ webcomic, on the website willis runs.

    also sometimes its just stone cold racist and homophobic in here but like. from exciting new directions.

    1. Shepsquared

      It’s a valid question to ask – just like a streamer’s chat will reflect how the streamer acts and what they allow so too does this comment section reflect Willis. From the Shortpacked strips that call out Transformers authors by name to the 9 Chickweed Lane criticisms that get posted to Bluesky and show up here on the sidebar, people respond to Willis the same way Willis responds to other creators.

      1. mare

        There’s a big difference between critiquing a work on your social media account and doing so for months on end on the author’s own site where they moderate the comments and have to read whatever you post. Completely fair of Willis to want this out of their house.

  69. zee

    Well Im feeling low-key like….noooot great. Unsafe feels a little too much like putting the blame on other people which i dont wanna do. But, yeah. Imma probably peace out for the most part until I get a better handle on my emotions wrt this. Vibe.
    Uhhhh in other news I’m flying out to see my boyfriend (yourcousinjay) in a week! I tend to mention my major life events on here so, it’d feel weird not to this time. I’m excited for that. Went through the whole visa process by myself like a big girl, it was rad (and stressful,,,,,). First transatlantic flight, first flight longer than 3 hours. Advice would be appreciated even tho I feel like I’ve spent the past 2 months eating up all the info I could find

    1. apocryphascribe

      Congratz on getting the chance to go visit! My partner lives in Canada and me in the US, so it’s not exactly the same (and I hope someone who has actually flown transatlantic can give you something more substantial), but I’ve flown up there enough times to have learned a thing or two:

      – Have a plan if you’re sensitive to air pressure changes. The last time I flew to Canada, the worst thing was dealing with the headaches that came from sudden air pressure shifts. Chewing gum helps, as moving the muscles connecting your jaw to your ears helps take some of the pressure out of your head.
      – Go to the bathroom right before you get on the flight.
      – Be patient, but watch your luggage like a hawk. Maybe even take a picture of any tags they put on it to keep track, just in case they end up losing it.
      – If you’re not the type to pack a meal for layover, save up for expensive airport food. They charge at a premium and if you’re not budgeting for it in the trip expenses, it can sneak up on you.

      That’s about all I got. Apologies if this all sounds basic as hell!

  70. Cbwroses

    While it is not the overwhelming majority’s experience (I’m in the majority), serious relationships that go the distance can and do start in college (and high school), and I feel it’s kind of flippant to just say things like “boyfriends come and go” or even “relationships come and go”.
    It’s like telling Jake “It’s Chinatown”.
    But if Joyce and Dorothy go the distance, it won’t be because they’re both women and it won’t be because one of them is Dorothy.
    It will be because they put the time in to make the relationship work and last.
    And that could have been the case with Joyce and Joe, until it wasn’t.
    It can be the case with Sal and Danny, unless and until it isn’t.
    The same with Jacob and Lucy, and so on.
    College relationships coming and going is a proof of concept deal (I assume I’m using the phrase correctly, but you get what I’m trying to say).
    Annnnnd now I feel like I’m giving a “not all men” vibe, which makes me want to delete this and hide my head in the sand.
    But I’m not, because despite it not being my experience, I don’t feel like serious long term college relationships are as rare as the unicorn deal Booster mentioned in a strip weeks ago (I don’t fully understand the term, but it’s clearly supposed to be hard to find so it works as a comparison).

  71. RedComet

    Ah the 2 different styles of Big Sistering

    I love Joe but also think Jocelyn isn’t out of character for this. Why should she care about a week-long college boyfriend however nice when her little sis is clearly head over heels with this new girl in a way she never was with Joe? I imagine it’s also great to have a fellow queer in the family after having to be closeted so hard in *that* particular bunch.

    Sarah on the other hand knows Joe well at this point and is living in the same room as the drama (and is generally more of a stickler for rules).

    tbh I might be rooting for a return of Joe/Sarah now. I like that she’s defending Joe in addition to keeping Joyce honest. She knows his history, and seems to have moved past it just like Joyce. And she isn’t as fickle. She’d break things off cleanly with Mike first. It’s clear she’s not 100% comfortable in the relationship, even if she’s happy most of the time.

  72. beth

    I love both of these girls.

  73. Trying my best

    I’m a little surprised Jocelyne is so taken with Dorothy. In universe she’s always struck me as the uncharismatic and nerdy type that parents might love, but that wouldn’t leave such an impression on younger peers. Socially she’s always been kind of a… loser?
    +
    I realize Jocelyne has seen Dorothy pursuing activism the last couple of days, but, uh, she also saw her crash out at the protest, so. I would think she’d regard Dorothy as a huge mess of a kid.

    1. Superglucose

      Dorothy turned Jocelyn’s sister gay, of course Jocelyn loves her!

  74. Rosicrucian

    Jocelyne ships Joyce and Dorothy because she feels like Dorothy is a good influence on Joyce, who was already her favorite sibling. Particularly, she got to see how being around Dorothy helped Joyce become the only Brown sibling she felt safe enough to come out to. It’s not that weird, and sure she’s probably a little biased because this means she has a queer sibling she can confide in. We don’t know Jordan’s deal, but it doesn’t seem like Jordan is in contact with Jocelyne.

  75. AlexanderHammil

    Oh, thank god, a dedicated moderator. I stopped even looking at the comments section ages ago because of how toxic they’d gotten, here’s hoping things settle the hell down

  76. Buli-Buli

    Don’t worry Sarah. You have more than earned that “big sister” title.

  77. ElderlyMarxist

    kind of harsh to blame jocelyne for this

  78. Throwatron

    I thought about making two different posts, but I wasn’t really sure where or how to place them, so I think I’ll just make one post here with two completely separate thoughts in it, and hope that somehow works out.

    The first thought is as simple as, it’s really funny how much this strip scans almost one-to-one with the strip where Dorothy blows up at Jennifer over Jennifer leaping in to fix one tiny thing for Joyce, taking all the credit, and then bouncing right after. Dorothy and Sarah, both in the position of “where do you get off? This is the work I do every day!” Jennifer and Jocelyn, having a substantially more detached perspective, and in concert with that, not really having all the information about the thing they’re being so casual about. I’m curious to see where this conversation goes from here, and if it matches up with how the previous conversation went, or if it diverges from that pattern of Dorothy realizing she was mostly in the wrong to blow up about it.

    The other thing, which I now realize is more related than I initially thought, is that it feels like people are being very judgemental about the way Sarah views her responsibility towards her younger sisters, and I don’t think the underlying criticism is wrong, but I think the perspective from which it’s being presented, is extremely harsh, given what we know about Sarah’s relationship with her other sister.

    We have heard near-zero about Sarah’s parents, and seen nothing, for the entire run-time of the strip. Sarah always has been extremely focused on what her responsibilities are, first, and allows every other part of her life to fall to the wayside, secondary to those responsibilities. It stands to reason that this was an existing pattern of behavior for Sarah, long before she was ever in college. Then, when her little sister from childhood is in crisis, we see her completely side-step any communication with their parents, and she goes straight to Sarah, and immediately intrudes upon her life, at the barest impulse – and Sarah more or less immediately capitulates to fixing her sister’s situation, and practically speaking, parenting her. Once again, it stands to reason, that this is the norm for them, in their relationship prior to the comic.

    I get the strong impression that both of Sarah’s parents (or one, if there is only one) committed a great deal of their time towards their careers, and a lot less time towards parenting their two kids, in any direct way. Sarah’s deliberate and rigid focus on academics over her own personal needs, especially in her freshman year, could easily be the result of emulating the model of success that she saw in her family. So, I do get the strong impression, then, that Sarah is coming heavily from the perspective that preventing your younger siblings from doing anything wrong, or disruptive to adult routines, is a baseline expectation of what it means to be a big sister. She’s like a surrogate parent to her little sister by blood, and she immediately took on way more responsibility over Joyce than any reasonable observer would have expected of her, very early on after them ending up living together.

    I’m not saying Sarah is wrong or right, but what I’m saying is, it’s not shocking for her and Jocelyn not to see eye-to-eye about what their responsibilities as siblings are. Jocelyn comes from under the thumb of an insanely controlling matriarch figure, whose level of restriction over her family was fundamentally abusive, and it thus makes perfect sense for her to heavily emphasize Joyce’s responsibility over her own choices, without trying to counsel or control her. Sarah, at least seemingly, is coming from a background where her sisterly responsibilities strayed well beyond the boundaries of sisterhood, and into that of surrogate parenthood. She’s used to being forced to act as the moral center of her younger sister, and preventing her from disturbing their otherwise-neglectful family’s routine.

    I was (unsurprisingly, I assume) an only child, so I’m not the greatest authority on these sorts of dynamics; there are major gaps in my subjective understanding about how siblings feel about one another. But, I don’t think that it’s fair to paint Sarah as being gross or controlling, for caring about the moral center of either of her obviously-impulsive little sisters; paint her as being over-reaching, sure! But I think that would best be understood within the context, that this is precisely the kind of sister she may have been raised to be, and that we do not yet know what the consequences would have been like in her household, if she wasn’t acting way above her station in sisterly relationships, and being given parent-like responsibilities.

    1. Mitzi B.

      I think this is a pretty good analysis of Sarah’s attitude towards being a sister, and why it’s clashing with Jocylene’s.

      1. David

        Excellent transactional analysis of the characters!!!
        All of the characters are so nuanced as to allow such depth, that´s why I love Dumbing of Age.

        I totally agree with your view. Also, Sarah is suffering some personal crisis as she was forced to realize her relationship break up with her sister was pointing how SHE CAN´T BE A MOTHERLY FIGURE to anyone, not even herself right now.
        She was mirroring some obsolete social programming and has to relearn everything.
        Jocelyn very existence is a social disruption, being trans. Yet she seems happier and more balanced than Sarah.
        Therefore Sarah sees Jocelyn like a family rival (about Joyce), a social uncertainty (for sex roles), a model (for personal satisfaction) AT THE SAME TIME!

        So the very existence of Jocelyn challenges Sarah to accept a whole new reality. Sarah criticizing Joyce´s actions is just projection of Sarah´s own desires.

        Hope she learns and doesn´t fall back to past fears…

    2. Dwampre Scorrigank

      Interesting thoughts! Haven’t really processed them yet but I do know Sarah’s parents are divorced. And Liz is, I believe, her half-sister (I assume half but could be step unless I missed something). It’s probably also worth noting that Sarah has cheating trauma from Liz.

      1. Throwatron

        I don’t know how y’all can remember this many details with such accuracy, but boy is it helpful to have them pointed out XD

        1. Dwampre Scorrigank

          Haha it’s either webcomic trivia or embarrassing moments from my past! More seriously, i relearned half of this while digging through the archives to confirm the divorce thing which I was unsure of.

    3. Whirlakitty

      That’s a really thoughtful and I think good analysis of things. Thank your for sharing it! Now I do wonder how much Sara is seeing Joyce as being like her real sister and needing to protect her from her own poor judgement.

  79. Iris

    Big fan of this strip in particular, Joss is so sillies.

  80. Freezer

    I’d actually forgotten that Sarah was very much Not Okay with the Dorothy/Joyce hook-up.

  81. rainbow-flyer

    Sarah makes a good point in the worst possible way. I still think this convo can be saved!

  82. Allie_KO

    It’s kind of telling how fast the tone went from “you’re not going to change this place” to “you’re so mean and I am too fragile for rules and probably racist(?)” From people Mad About Moderation. Bluster and outrage turns into crocodile tears turns into a tantrum, pretty much every time a toxic space gets addressed.

  83. EmCaCo

    I did not expect these two to ever interact but I’m really interested to see how a conversation goes!

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