danny, sal, and joe together in a strip? what is this, september 10th

Hurricanic
Posted on February 3, 2026 by David M Willis

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Tags: danny, joe, sal

198 thoughts on “Hurricanic”

  1. Doctor_Who

    “Like a little bit” is actually the top of Sal’s scale.

    “Malaya” is the bottom.

    1. Dara

      P. sure Malaya would insist they’re not not the bottom.

      1. Rabid Rabbit

        But they have such a nice one!

  2. NGPZ

    I love you, Sal :,)

  3. Taffy

    Joe is now canonically demisexual and has never had sex.

    1. Doopyboop

      Now he gets to go to double heaven!

    2. Techhead

      Never had sex before Joyce*

      1. Taffy

        Nope, Joe’s never had sex with anyone. Even Joyce. Double heaven.

        1. Kazuma Shouri

          no I’m pretty sure demisexual means that even holding hands with Joyce counts as sex. I should know, I’m a greyace demiromantic, which would make me an expert on demisexuality, surely
          :P

  4. Sirksome

    Keeping it casual and non committed Sal x Danny. This is our new bedrock couple? We are so screwed.

    1. mindbleach

      Odds are, at some point, we get to find out if Sal is heteroflexible.

      1. GreyICE

        I think we’ve established that Sal is as straight as Becky is gay.

    2. Dot

      Admitting she kinda likes Danny is Sal’s way of saying she’s been daydreaming about putting a ring on it

      1. Tequila Mockingbird

        Now there is a mental image that made me happy as a clam to think about.

      2. Justin8448

        Sal’s smile when looking at the flowers on her desk that Danny bought for her gives her away entirely.

      3. butting

        Next Slipshine: Sal Puts a Ring on It.

        1. tim Rowledge

          Gotta be careful with those Ring cameras; too often feeds get to ICE.

    3. Steamweed

      They are committed to their non-commitment to each other.

      1. clif

        I just want to know what’s special about September 10.

        1. clif

          Oh, wait. That’s the day before 9-11.

          That’s not a good omen.

        2. Bright

          September 10th is the anniversary date of both DoA and Roomies starting

        3. Tan

          See for example: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/semestersgoingfine/

        4. M!a

          September 10th is commemorated worldwide as The Last Good Day.

  5. Nono

    I know we haven’t seen him interact with many people since it happened but it’s funny that Sal of all people is like the first or second person to give Joe condolences about his breakup.

    (I haven’t checked if Sarah gave any, though she was righteously angry on his behalf.)

    1. Armadillo

      Sarah and Joe did have a conversation which definitely counted. It was brief but Sarah was very nice.

    2. furubatsu

      Sarah gave her condolences/checked in on Joe and then the conversation went “please don’t let this undo your character development” “Don’t worry, it wont”

      1. Rimwalker55

        https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/twelvedays/
        Sarah was very supportive to Joe, but (oddly) also of Joyce.

  6. jeffepp

    What’s it going to take to get a threesome (or more) around here?

    1. Armadillo

      Safest bet would be a pov switch to that one throuple in the girl’s dorms.

    2. DashWallkick

      Technically, already happened with Mandy and the others.

  7. Ray Radlein

    wait does this mean tomorrow is 9/11? 😬

    1. Thing 2

      Can you explain that in words a non-USAvian would understand? Please?

      1. Gigafreak

        The alt text suggests that these three (Danny, Joe, Sal) would normally show up on September 10th.
        I’m guessing that’s the anniversary date for the first Roomies comic.

        1. eh, whatever

          No, it suggests they last showed up in the same strip together on Sep. 10th.

        2. IntangibleMatter

          Last time they were in the same strip together on September 10th was in 2022.

        3. Needfuldoer

          I didn’t realize there were so many insert strips!

        4. John Campbell

          This was the first actual Roomies! strip, which ran on September 10th, 1997. Willis has a tendency to observe that anniversary with riffs on it, like that 2022 25th anniversary strip that has Danny talking to his mom on the phone, with Sal being the one climbing out the window.

          (If you follow that link… don’t read backwards; it’s worse. Going forward gets better, eventually.)

        5. Thing 2

          Thanks everyone

  8. DiDi

    Aww, he wants something meaningful…

    If there’s anyone who didn’t deserve to be the one to to spark this change in him, it’s definitely Joyce Brown. Life’s just not fair.

    Meanwhile, Sal x Danny are still cute. But the bar is low enough to trip on at this point.

    1. Geno

      Nobody deserves to spark change in anyone. That’s a really weird thing to believe in. You don’t pick the people who matter to you, and honestly I think Joe is ultimately happier because of Joyce.

  9. IntangibleMatter

    Aww, Joe.

    Maybe you need to have some meaningless sex to help get over the breakup. That never goes wrong.

  10. Dot

    Gonna go ahead and bullet point my thoughts here:
    *Hope Danny learns soon that Joe got cheated on, because I do not buy for one second that he’d be this chill if he knew already
    * I sure hope Sal doesn’t yet know Walky got cheated on, because I don’t like that she’d be this chill about it if she knew!
    *Aw, they’re in looooooove
    *Good on Joe for keeping that character development and finally admitting out loud that he’s in love with Joyce. You can forgive a lot of someone you’re in love with. Maybe it’s not good for him to be forgiving this much.

    1. Grimey

      I agree with you but its possible that Danny and Sal learning about the cheating is going to come at the most inopportune time for Joyce and Dorothy.

      …Actually, who really knows besides Sara, Becky, and Billie? Because to this point Dorothy and Joyce seems like it was such a given to the cast, they must all be under the assumption it was all mutual breakups.

      1. Dot

        They kind of have to be, because otherwise this friend group is not acting at all like you’d expect a bunch of college kids to react to two members of said friend group cheating on their partners, both of whom are also in the friend group.

        1. Sirksome

          I think this is one of those situations where they’re respecting the boundaries of their friend’s business that is entirely the effected people’s choice to talk about and act on. There are definitely at least rumors floating because Raidah, Asma, and Alice have heard the gossip, and I don’t think it would be hard for Sal to figure it out if she hasn’t already, but the subject of relationships and cheating is sensitive and embarrassing so if you’re friends aren’t volunteering the information it can be the best and most supportive move to just tread water instead of shaking things up in someone’s defense.

        2. Miroku2235

          Heck, most adult friend groups wouldn’t take the act of two of their number cheating on another two of their number so passively. Most of these characters are seemingly just shrugging their shoulders and going “Being faithful to your partner? Sounds dumb”

        3. Thing 2

          Is this a USA thing? I’m perpetually puzzled as to why anyone calls this cheating at all, let alone repeatedly and expecting anger.

        4. yak

          What do you call it when you have sex with a person without prior consent from your monogamous partner, Thing 2?

        5. rowan

          For some reason the website won’t let me reply to yak, or anyone past here in the comment nesting. I’m with Thing 2, they didn’t fuck until having broken up with their respective partners. They did kiss before the breakups but I think expecting the friend group to be big mad at them on their friends behalf is disproportionate. Show extra sympathy and understanding to the jilted Joe and walk, sure, but it’s really not like an affair

        6. thejeff

          @Thing 2: Mostly we call it cheating because the comic itself does. Every time any of the characters talk about, it’s in terms of cheating. Not a single person finding out what happened has said anything like “That was just kissing and you broke up the next day. That doesn’t count.” That would be a valid take, but it hasn’t come up.

          Willis has described this as a cheating arc. This all might be partly because of their being uncomfortable with cheating stories, leading to a lower standard for what counts.

        7. zee

          @Thing 2 bruh what are you, French?

        8. Big Z

          @Thing 2: A lot of it does ride on the technicalities and letter-of-the-law stuff. YMMV (and it obviously does), but it’s been the lived experience of a lot of folks that getting even anywhere close to something that can be described as “cheating” (even, yes, something as weaksauce as “kissing a new partner while still technically ‘dating’ your previous partners without breaking up first, even if the previous relationships were short”) is a huge red flag for a couple of reasons.
          –
          One, it’s still fundamentally dishonest. If there’s ANY expectation of monogamous behavior, and many of us have argued that in their cultural context there WAS/IS, then stepping out on that is at least arguably cheating.
          –
          Two, in this modern world of STIs and risk factors, “hooking up with someone else without telling your other partners” is IMHO fundamentally unethical — to abuse a hypothetical, if Dorothy happened to have a barely-noticable cold sore during the protest kiss, suddenly Joe’s unknowingly at risk for genital herpes after the blanket/weenus interaction!

        9. dLileh

          Imho, this friends group is exactly behaving as expected if two of their members cheated!

          Relationships are a very personal thing. Even if they are very good friends that share intimate details, they will allways miss information about what actually happened and how the cheaters and the cheated feel about the whole thing. Could be that the involved persons don’t want others to make a big fuss out of it. Could be, that the involved don’t want to risk splitting the friends group. Could be, that the ex-couple agreed on being just a fling (so nothing serious). … I could think of a couple more reasons.

          It would be insolent to interefer in the relationships of other people in any case.

        10. Dot

          It’s not unreasonable if we assume everyone here is a mature adult, but they aren’t! They’re kids! Hormonal young adults who should be having bigger reactions.

        11. Big Z

          @dLileh – who says anything about interfering in the relationships of other people? If I discover that someone’s a cheater, I’m not likely to continue to trust them, because by definition cheating involves dishonesty.
          –
          THEY can manage their relationships however they like, but if they do so in an unethical way I’m going to treat them like an unethical person.

        12. dLileh

          @ Big Z: Well, you do you. I would not treat somebody that cheated in a relationship any different in day to day life. Why would I bother how that person behaves in a relationship, if I don’t plan having one with them? I’m way more pissed at people cheating at work or in life in general …

          I would probably think a bit longer if I wanted to start a relationship with them, but it’s not a complete “no definately not!” for me. In a real life setting it’s not as simple as “The cheater is bad and the cheated is a poor victim.” There are reasons why cheating happens. Just to name a few:

          – Was it a one time thing, that happened because the relationship was already crumbling and fell apart later? -> Take care of the relationship. Talk about the needs and love languages of both of you.

          – Is it notorious? -> Some people can’t be monogamous. Don’t try to have a closed relationship with them. Either find an honest way how to be with them or don’t date them.

          Don’t get me wrong, I think, that cheating in a relationship is clearly wrong and should be prevented. (Also, I personally never cheated. So this is not me trying to justify anything) I’m a big fan of honesty. And I think that decades of romcoms put a destructively wrong idea of relationships into our minds.

          Also, I personally would not count Joyce kissing Dorothy at the demo cheating (I know the comic does, and that’s alright.). It kind of happened in the moment. If she afterwards continues to kiss Dorothy without telling Joe, then I would consider it cheating. But Joe knows about it, so there is no dishonesty here. The only problem I see, is that Dorothy doesn’t know about the limbo-state of Joyces relationship with Joe, so there is some dishonesty towards her.

        13. Thing 2

          Zee: Mais non.
          The Jeff: So we are required to follow that convention?
          Yak: That depends on several things, like Was Walky actually a “Partner”?; has monogamy been established in either case?; why is monogamy assumed if not discussed, as opposed to assuming open?; did anyone ‘have sex’ before talking to previous partner?; does kissing count as ‘having sex’?
          I, personally, would not call what happened “cheating”, even if the comic does.

      2. furubatsu

        I’m pretty sure Sal is aware that the timeline of Joyce and Dorothy getting together overlaps with Walky being with Dorothy and Sal’s general reaction was “You’ll be in another girls pants by the end of the day dude” (basically she’s not mad on Walky’s behalf because she didn’t think he was serious about Dorothy this time around because he basically got with her a day after he broke up with Lucy like, an in-universe week and a half ago).

        1. Astariel

          Even less than that. Dorothy & Walky got back together on Tuesday, and Dorothy & Joyce kissed Saturday of the same week.

    2. Nyzer

      Ugh, I hate how the Report Comment button is a one-click thing. Tried to scroll up and reported this one without wanting to.

      1. clif

        That’s okay. I’ll report this one to make up for it.

      2. zee

        Feels a lot easier to accidentally hit now. Luckily one random report doesn’t matter, only matters when a bunch of people report one comment

      3. Thag Simmons

        It’s legitimately fine. There’s a report threshold, it’s not going to get flagged unless there’s multiple reports

    3. yak

      It seems pretty unrealistic that they wouldn’t know. It’s literally front page news.

      1. Anna

        It’s front page news that Joyce & Dorothy kissed at the protest. Whether Joyce & Dorothy broke up with their partners before or after the protest-kiss is not something covered by the newspaper.

    4. Rimwalker55

      [Dot] Bullet point 2: Sal knew before anybody in the dorm except AG https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/take-stock/ and I’m guessing Dan knew shortly after Sal dropped wounded AG off at her room.

      1. thejeff

        As Anna said above, Sal knew they were being more gay than usual, but not when they broke up with their partners. Why would she assume cheating rather than a breakup?

        1. Rimwalker55

          She knew they were now a couple and Walky was with Dorothy and Joe was with Joe. Doesn’t take a law degree.

        2. Rimwalker55

          oops, Joe with Joyce. Missed it before the timer ran out.

        3. thejeff

          But why assume cheating then breakup, rather than breakup then getting together?
          I think most people would expect Dorothy at least to do things by the book.

    5. Rosicrucian

      While I agree that the degree of deference Joe is giving Joyce is only going to lead to more pain, I think another thing that is factoring in here is Joe has done more than a little unpacking of what led to his initial promiscuity. He’s finally on the other side of some real bad headspace, and he’s liked who he’s becoming. He’s probably pretty wary of backsliding.

    6. apocryphascribe

      I think I’m giving up on the cheating meaning anything, personally. If that changes later I get to be pleasantly surprised, and if it doesn’t, I don’t have my expectations wrapped up in what by all accounts ought to be a bigger part of the drama atm.

  11. Brendan of 6

    Sal I think Joe knows that loving someone isn’t a requirement for banging em

  12. Cattleprod

    Oh no, trying to see strips with multiple characters together using + doesn’t work anymore.

    1. Cattleprod

      (And on the topic of technical things… I can’t figure out any way to give myself an avatar here, and a lot of the time posting leads me to ‘page not found’ even if the post is there when I check.)

      1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

        Here is how I did it. Go to:

        https://gravatar.com/

        and create a free account associated with the email you use here.

        Upload your the avatar photo you want to use. Save and such, That should be it. I did it years ago and it has worked ever since. It did not change with the New Order DoA website.

        You may have to fiddle with the picture size and aspect ratio get what you want.

        In the Good Old Days DYW had a thing that gave you a random DoA avatar based on your email, but that was lost in the change to The New Order. Just a sign of the degenerate age we live in.

        Yeah, I usually get the error page when I hit “Post Comment” but the comment does go through. Sometimes you don’t get the error page and can edit the comment for 10 minutes. But in my experience, even they it doesn’t save your nickname and email even if you checked the box.

        Edit: I didn’t get that error on this comment, but did on my earlier one.

        Note that when you change your avatar picture, it changes for all the comments you ever made from that email, all the way back. Which is one of the reasons comments talking about avatars in the past may not make sense.

        1. Cattleprod

          Thanks. I had been relying on the generic avatars on the old site so I never even bothered to check on getting a custom one before.

        2. Treehawk

          Thank you! Avatar acquired!!
          edit: And now it’s gone again… lol

  13. Ray Radlein

    The greatest trick the Devil ever played remains the check box that says “Remember my name and email address on this website”

    (The second-greatest trick was a 720 reverse goofy-footed nose grind)

    1. Tequila Mockingbird

      Oh man, that cracked me up. Have an internet. You’ve earned it, citizen.

  14. CT Phipps

    Sal is as confused as I suspect most people on the floor will be that Joe’s change wasn’t performative.

  15. Newlland(Henryvolt)

    No amount of physical intimacy satisfies the need for emotional intimacy. Besides if I were Joe I’d take a hiatus from the dating/one night stand game myself.

  16. darkoneko

    Ah’ll kill you

  17. Slartibeast Button, BIA

    Now he’s a believer…

  18. StarfighterVicki

    Phew. I was pretty sure he wouldn’t go back to his old ways, but it’s nice to have it confirmed. I hope he finds someone.

    Actually, I hope he gets over Joyce. Those aren’t exactly the same thing. (Psst. Becky. Dina. Sort things out!)

  19. RassilonTDavros

    Was tempted to make a parody comment accusing Sal of being a homicidal maniac based on a willful misinterpretation of her obvious joke in the last panel, but at least two people are probably going to post those comments completely un-ironically at this rate so nah.
    ———
    Good strip, it cute

  20. Lingo

    September 10th? More like GROUNDHOG DAY amirite amirite–[checks calendar]–oh shit i’m not rite actually

  21. KM

    It’s ok Sal you can huff “it’s not like I love you or anything, baka” ,we won’t judge you trying to keep an even tsun to dere ratio

  22. Mr. Random

    He’s such a goober.
    I have this sincere memory of everyone hating on him pretty harshly back at the start of the strip.
    I think it wasn’t so much that he wasn’t a goober then, but just that he didn’t have confidence in his goober-ness.

    1. thejeff

      Nah, he was a creep back then. Let the man have his character growth. He had a whole character arc and everything.

    2. Astariel

      Are you talking about Joe or Danny?

  23. Kyulen

    I’m glad Joe is no longer trying to sleep around with every girl he sees because I think that wasn’t good, but I really hope he realizes soon that he deserves better than someone who cheated on him like Joyce. I’m assuming Sal is lying about her feelings for Danny in the last panel. And I kinda wish Sal cared as much about how Doyce cheating on their ex-boyfriends has hurt her brother Walky as she seems to care about how it hurt Joe. She seemed to not care all that much the last time we saw Sal and Walky in the same strip.

    1. Thing 2

      Is there something wrong with enjoying casual sex>

      1. Newlland(Henryvolt)

        You can’t fuck all your problems away damn it.

        1. Thing 2

          That isn’t what I asked. Is there anything wrong with enjoying casual sex with others who are also enjoying it? f Joe no longer wants that, fine. I was referring to the suggestion that the the way he was when he was enjoying it was not good. Why not?

        2. Yotomoe

          Very interesting question.
          See there’s an interesting hangup when it comes to sex in western circles. We want to have sexual liberation. Free the stigma. But these same progressive circles also pushback on stuff that seems chauvanistic or overly sexualized. It is very hard to circle the square that is what level of sex is good or bad. I think inherently, regardless of what we believe to be right we have been socialized to find sex inherently a BIG DEAL. We try to downplay it but it never stops being a BIG DEAL. So even when we don’t slut shame a lotta people still find people who just hook up with people with no deeper emotional connection to be objectifying jerks.
          This isn’t something I believe, just something I’ve oberved.

        3. KM

          Thanks Yotomoe you articulated issue that so well.

        4. Taffy

          No, you can’t fuck all your problems away, Henryvolt. That’s your lack of skill and creativity, not somebody else’s. Projecting like that is such an ugly way to behave.

        5. dLileh

          You also can’t coffee your problems away, but you can still enjoy a hot cup. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        6. Jon

          @Newlland – Not with that attitude, you can’t!

      2. KM

        TBF in the context of Joe, this can’t be taken in isolation without his earlier attitude that also produced the “do list”.

      3. thejeff

        There’s nothing wrong with casual sex. There was plenty wrong with the way Old Joe was when he was enjoying it. He only interacted with women as sex objects. The whole list thing.
        There was a whole arc about how that was bad.

        1. Sirksome

          Exactly. I actually think if Joe went back to casual hookups now he would probably be considered a good partner for that. Safe and respectful without you feeling used or degraded for it. The problem before was always his mindset not the actual practice of casual hookups.

        2. Big Z

          Well, as long as we account for the fact that if Joe went back to casual hookups after this, he’d have to be extra careful to make sure he was still otherwise showcasing a clean break from his previous attitudes, lest people worry he’s backsliding.

    2. Daibhid C

      Really? Her reaction to Walky seemed basically the same. “That sucks, but also you can have sex with someone else now.” In fact, it was arguably phrased less objectionably, because she said he’d get a new girlfriend, not that he’d start sleeping around.

      I continue to be baffled that “Kissed Dorothy in a moment of extreme emotion, realised she was in love with Dorothy, spent ages considering the best way to tell Joe, told Joe, Joe accepted this, then Dorothy and Joyce had sex for the first time” constitutes cheating. Am I misremembering something?

      1. Bill Erak

        It’s baby’s first cheating. As unobjectionable as you can make cheating.
        People still treat it as though they’d murdered their grandmas.

        1. Astariel

          Yeah, it’s a pretty minor solecism in the grand scheme of things.

      2. thejeff

        Well you skipped the “gave Joe a blowjob, then went to sleep with Dorothy” part in the middle before actually telling him, but basically that’s right.
        Thing is though that they all call it cheating. Joyce and Dorothy think of it that way. Joe called it cheating. Those like Sal here who don’t seem too bothered by it, probably just don’t know the actual sequence. No one’s come out and said “You only kissed and then broke up the next day. Not a big deal.”
        The narrative and the characters are treating it as cheating. Which is why readers are.

        1. RexLatro

          Also forgetting the “went to sleep with Dorothy while using the very thoughtful gift Joe gave her” along with “told Joe (after putting it off long enough for Joe to actually find out via FRONT PAGE NEWS before actually hearing it from Joyce)”
          –
          Like, I’m honestly confused how people rejecting this as cheating think how this would go down in a real life relationship? If there was a partner I was romantically involved with and I told them I kissed someone else that people had teased me about having an intense emotional friendship with for years “in an intense emotional moment”, then slept with them after giving my partner a blow job, and only told them about my actions *after* having my actions exposed by another source…how would that not be perceived as cheating? How else would I expect a conversation with them to go down?

        2. thejeff

          It’s still about as minimal as cheating gets. I’d really expect it to hit more like a bad breakup than like cheating.

      3. Dot

        Everyone involved calls it cheating, so it’s cheating. Why do we keep having this conversation?

        1. apocryphascribe

          We keep having this conversation for the same reason you, me, and others are still waiting for the other shoe to drop, which is that “none of the characters (including the parties cheated on) are acting like it’s a big deal, so why are you treating it like one?” The fact that it has been named cheating in universe by multiple characters is besides the point; we can call it that, but until there’s actually observable shifts in the comic that are direct knock-on effects unique to the cheating, saying it doesn’t matter (or even that it wasn’t cheating at all) actually has MORE evidence in favor of it than any other arguments. As much as I hate that reality.

        2. HueSatLight

          Cheating storyline, but contrived in such a way it can be read so that there’s no cheating and the cheaters are still perfect angels. The contrivance of Joe setting Dorothy up to make a move in Joyce doesn’t make it right. It’s another bad move. Joe went from good communication to “I’m going to set up Joyce cheating on me, as a ploy for poly.” He wasn’t a master manipulator, but he nudged Dorothy with the intent of getting them to cheat.
          It was like as soon as Walky was no longer a foil for bad communication vs good, Joe and Joyce stopped being good at talking to each other. That’s part of why I think it feels contrived and rushed.
          But Dorothy and Joyce both cheated, I don’t know why there’s still denial about it. Obviously there are a few people acting like it’s the equivalent to murder, mostly getting caught in pre-moderation. But that’s far from universal, so people should stop bandying that about like a instant-win button when it doesn’t apply.

        3. Daibhid C

          Joe went from good communication to “I’m going to set up Joyce cheating on me, as a ploy for poly.”

          So after several replies that had me thinking “That is a valid point I hadn’t considered,” I get to this and am finally convinced that I am somehow reading a completely different strip that happens to feature characters with the same names.

        4. HueSatLight

          Who do you think it was who nudged Dorothy in her direction in the first place?

      4. Stormtide Leviathan

        And to be fair to Sal on the Walky thing. From her perspective, she knew he was with Lucy, he showed up to lunch with Amber saying *they* were dating, seemingly got back together with lucy only to break up, got back together with dorothy, and now got broken up with by her. In the span of like, a week. I would also give my sibling shit for that lol

  24. Bill Erak

    When they crash its gonna fuck sal up

    1. yak

      what are they gonna crash in to?

  25. Muttski

    Good man, Joe. Glad to see he’s committed to still being a better person even after everything that’s happened.

    1. Throwatron

      That’s not a moral commitment he’s making at all. He just finally isn’t lying to himself about what he actually wants. Not being interested in casual sex doesn’t make you a “better person,” it makes you not interested in casual sex. In contrast, being interested in casual sex, doesn’t have a morally negative connotation, and doesn’t make somebody a “worse person.”

      1. embe13

        as others have said it is not the casual sex joe is being a better man about, it is the commitment to no longer objectifying women

  26. SaffronComic

    Everyone shut up about Joyrothy drama, we have a major situation here: A friend asked me if Joe and Sal had many interactions, so I went to “https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic-tag/sal+joe” to check. On the old site, that would show me all strips tagged with both Sal and Joe, and was an extremely useful way to refresh myself on ongoing storylines. However, on the new site it just gets confused and shows no results!

    Dumbing of Age used to have the best archive of all major webcomics (the out-of-the-box ComicPress default no one else ever used for some reason) but now a fairly major piece of functionality is gone :(

    1. Yotomoe

      Yeah I’ve known that for a week or two and I’m hoping Willis is working on fixing this aspect of the website. But I’m also sure rebuilding the entire website from scratch was quite the undertaking so returning all the functionality it once had is gonna be an uphill battle. I kinda would love to make a list of all the features that we think it’d be helpful to bring back, or even add in some instances.

      1. David M Willis

        A coding fix for this was attempted late last night/early this morning, but it wrecked things, so it’s been removed again and another attempt will be made soon.

        1. Yotomoe

          Ah good. Thanks for keeping us posted. I’m sure it’ll be a slow process so we’ll all just have to be patient while you do your thing. Take your time.

        2. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          Thank you.

        3. SaffronComic

          Thanks!

          If you do fix it, and you think it’s a fix that can be done on other sites and not just yours, can you let us know the fix for our own sites?

        4. Thag Simmons

          Glad to know it’s being worked on, sorry it’s been such a pain to get done, no pressure to get it done quick.

        5. clif

          Highly appreciated. Not as much as for the comic you understand, but appreciated anyway. Thanks!

        6. NGPZ

          thanks for clarifying, yeah im sure it’s gonna take a lot of coffee and energy drink (and patience) on behalf of the coders to get this done

          // please oh my fucking god let this be the last fucking hack to get this to work

        7. StClair

          Thank you for keeping us informed and best of luck with your ongoing effort(s) to make it work.

    2. Hof1991

      Missing the “remember my name and email” but enjoying the much smaller comment section that it brings. Good example of a nudge that brought noticeable change.

  27. HueSatLight

    Panel 5 is Sal suggesting Joe have sex with Danny, I’m like 80% sure.

    1. dLileh

      I’m rooting for it! But I like Sal and Danny having a longterm thing. Maybe the sex can be prenegotiated with everyone?

  28. Yotomoe

    I really really enjoy Joe’s character and development at this point. Honestly I worry a bit that he’s gonna be sacrificed as a character to make Dorothy and Joyce seem like the superior couple but at least thus far he still remains consistently really sweet. I don’t even know if I want him to find someone new but I just want him to keep this sweetness.

    1. Amós Batista

      I think Joe is superior to Joyce and Dorothy right now, but I don’t know if that’s true or the lack of desire he’s getting now is a bad thing.

  29. Thing 2

    In NZ, He’d say Yeah, Nah

  30. Zamperla

    I really like how much Danny kinda ‘Gets’ Sal and is genuinely touched by her sentiments the way that she feels them. I also like that Sal, natch, aint exactly gonna be hung up on Needing t Be Emotionally Invested In A Lay.

    Also good f’ Joe. Feels like he’s moving forward still.

    1. Dot

      Danny’s extremely secure in their relationship and implicitly understands and accepts the way Sal chooses to display affection in the context of how she tries to put up an aloof front, and that’s why they’re gonna go the distance

      1. embe13

        or at the very least last until a natural end point and not end due issues that would be resolved with 15 minute of genuine conversation (ine of my biggest pet peeves in romantic storytelling: relationship drama that any solid relationship would handle with easy communication being presented as world shattering. https://mangadex.org/title/392d3348-8276-48a9-a6b0-308e48eace42/akuyaku-reijoutachi-wa-yuruganai thankfully there are writers whoknow how to handle it

  31. Astariel

    It’s nice to see that Joe’s character development hasn’t been reset by the breakup like a lot of folks were worried about.

    I wonder if this is the first time he’s called Sal by her name rather than “Walky’s ridiculously hot twin.”

  32. Nymphie

    Sal, please, pull out your hair from under the backpack, you’re gonna damage it each time you move your head T_T

    Maybe its different when you have curls like that since it’ll give you some movement range, but i know with my straight/wavy hair that would also pull each time I’d turn my head to look somewhere

  33. BorkBorkBork

    Thank goodness that Sal was there to explain casual sex to Joe.

  34. ADLegend21

    New DoA book title: Ah’ll Kill ya

  35. Adept

    Joe needs a new hobby.

  36. Jerna

    What is this all of a sudden, Roomies? Is Joe going to act with integrity, no regrets?

  37. Dandi_Andi

    My problem with Joe will forever be that when he says things like this, I don’t believe him. Joe gave every woman on campus a very good reason to feel unsafe riding an elevator with him and I just can’t bring myself to feel good about him declaring that he’s changed and expecting to walk away from those consequences while the women of IU still have to live with the fear of him. And that goes for the guy who enabled his shitty behavior for years, too.

    1. Dot

      I think this is absolutely a fair attitude to have about a man in real life who does this sort of thing, and less so to say about a fictional character. The thing is that we *know* Joe has genuinely changed for the better because we follow him and get a glimpse into his inferiority that we never could in real life.

      1. Dandi_Andi

        I assume most people here who express anger at Joyce’s infidelity do so because they recognize the humanity in these characters. Otherwise, who cares that Joe got cheated on? He isn’t real. These stories are compelling to me precisely because they invoke my empathy. And in the case of Joe’s story, my empathy is entirely with the women he hurt. And not only has he done nothing to try to mend that harm, he doesn’t seem to actually understand exactly what it was that he did to hurt them. Both his argument with Rachel in the gym and this conversation seem to imply that he thinks the problem was with wanting casual sex rather than the dehumanising way he treated them. And that all hits way too close to home for me to be able to ever feel good about him or Danny.

        1. clif

          @Dandi_Andi “or Danny” — Where did that come from?

        2. Dandi_Andi

          @Cliff
          Enabling Joe’s worst behavior for years. Making it clear to Rachel that he has absolutely no intention of pressing him to change.

        3. nadamás

          I don’t really get what exactly he could do to “mend” any harm besides not talking to those women which he is already doing. He doesn’t really goes out of his way to interact with girls outside of his friend group anymore.

        4. embe13

          i do not remember the exactstrips but i do remember joe acknowledging the objectification issue as well, and his actions and behavior since the semester start would suggest he is aware of why how he behaved before was wrong. danny’s enabling hasnot really been adressed and i can agree with a bit if ick factor there. though i do feel it is a bit harsh on joe to say he has done nothing to address the objectification problem of his past behavior

        5. Thag Simmons

          Agreed @Nadamás, with harm there comes a point when there isn’t anything more productive to be done and once you’ve hit that point doing more is more likely going to make things worse.

          Joe apologizing, not doing it again and avoiding the people who don’t want to associate with him is absolutely the way he should handle an incident like this. I don’t see any way for Joe (or Danny) to pro-actively “mend the harm” that wouldn’t just be re-opening the wound for the sake of their ego.

      2. RonWF

        Feel unsafe?

        Where in the entire canon of this webcomic has Joe ever been accused of forcing a women to do something she didn’t want to do?

        1. Dandi_Andi

          Breathtaking ignorance. That or a complete failure of empathy. Did you read the part where Rachel explained that, after a confirmed rapist was caught outside of her residence hall, the list felt like a treasure map for any other would-be Ryans? Or when Joyce explained to him that the way he wrote about the women on his list was the way Ryan saw her when he attacked her? Yes. Keeping a list of all the women on campus ranked by how much you want to fuck them is going to make women around you feel unsafe.

        2. Thag Simmons

          Even if we assume no girl perceived a big assertive stranger who didn’t respect their space as a potential threat, which is a stupid assumption to make for reasons I shouldn’t have to explain, Joyce very directly says that Joe’s behaviour made her feel like she was never safe

        3. Rogue 7

          @Thag

          I think in the case of the strip you linked, there’s room for more complexity. Joe’s actions caused Joyce to feel unsafe, but she herself didn’t feel threatened by him. His behavior reminded her that there were others out there who did make her feel threatened.

          It’s a bit of writing I’ll always credit as being exceptionally well-done, because it so effectively threads a needle of behavior that is harmful and damaging, but not irredeemably so. It’s like, the perfect place for a “horndog redemption arc” to start.

          So, to be honest, I think that saying “Women would, canonically, feel unsafe riding with Joe alone in an elevator because of his past behavior” assumes facts that are not in evidence. I can’t recall any of the characters in this strip feeling unsafe because Joe is there.

          It’s not an unreasonable assumption to make, being clear. Joe’s a big guy who was known to be hyperfixated on sex. He throws up a lot of red flags. But it *is* still something that I don’t think has been canonically expressed in the strip, and ultimately I think that helps to keep Joe from being someone more readers *would* find irredeemable.

        4. Dandi_Andi

          @Rogue7

          1. Joyce also has the benefit of knowing Joe personally while most of the women on his list do not.

          2. Even if the fear is of riding in an elevator alone with men generally and not Joe specifically, that’s not better. Is say that’s worse because now you can’t just avoid Joe to feel safe. You have to avoid men which is a lot harder.

          3. Willis not directly addressing the way his actions specifically hurt other women on campus doesn’t make me assume it isn’t true. Otherwise, well, Joe and Walky don’t seem terribly torn up about the cheating, therefore it must canonically not be a big deal and we should all just drop it already.

        5. Rogue 7

          1. Sure, but that’s kind of irrelevant to my point. Thag posted the link as evidence that Joe’s behavior caused a woman (Joyce) to feel threatened. And my point is that she did not feel threatened by Joe himself but by how what he did contributed to rape culture.
          2. I’m not really sure what to do with this one. That Joe’s actions might have caused one or more women on the IU campus to distrust all men is, again, something I don’t think we have evidence of. It’s certainly a valid idea- what he did certainly *could* cause that sort of harm- but I don’t think we actually see that the “do list” did cause that harm.
          3. You’re not actually going to like my response to this lmao- I actually think that the intended audience reaction is for us as readers to pretty much take the cheating in stride and move on. That I dislike this idea is my primary problem with the plot right now.

          Making assumptions about what happens “offscreen” happens a great deal in media consumption, and it’s not wrong to do so if said assumptions make for a more enjoyable story or further our understanding of the plot, setting, and characters. But it’s important to remember that assumptions are not text. They can’t be used as evidence in discussions like these, because again reasonable folks can make different assumptions. I think this is where you get a lot of the “this person is reading an entirely different comic” nonsense, it’s about people being incredulous that others have made different assumptions about things.

        6. thejeff

          That needle being threaded so effectively is why half the commentariat thinks Old Joe was just a harmless horndog who was good on consent and anyone who has a problem with him is just slut-shaming or something.

          And we saw that discourse every time a character didn’t automatically trust he’d changed – with Dorothy and Sarah and Rachel especially.

        7. Thag Simmons

          @Rogue 7 Joyce knows Joe better than basically any other woman on campus besides Dorothy and Amber. She considers him a friend she can trust, and his behaviour was still upsetting and hurtful to her. It’s going to be worse for strangers.

          Part of the point of it was that you can’t be a “just joking” misogynist. The things you say matter and hurt people regardless of how much you might want them to just be shallow posturing

    2. Sirksome

      I think this actually sets Joe up for good stories in the future. It’s up to him to actually prove that he’s a changed man now and up to his next partner to decide if he’s worthy of their trust despite his reputation. Most women still don’t trust him, he’ll actually have a lot of work to do if he ever gets interest from another woman.

      1. Dandi_Andi

        Sure, I believe we could have some interesting storytelling there. I think both Sarah and Rachel are well positioned to facilitate an arc for Joe centered on actually doing the work of rebuilding trust. I’m not at all invested in Tony as a character yet, so I wouldn’t mind sidelining his and Sarah’s relationship for Joe/Sarah. And since Sarah has already chosen to give Joe another chance for Joyce’s sake, that could work. Rachel’s ongoing distrust of Joe’s could also work as it would force their story to focus on what it actually takes to rebuild trust with the people you’ve hurt. And that’s what i think it would take to actually get me invested in Joe again; a story about actually rebuilding trust.

        But what would that even look like? I don’t know. I think there are things you can’t ever come back from. As things stand, every time a woman sees him waiting for the elevator and decides to take the stairs instead, his past behavior is continuing to do new harm. Sometimes, the best you can do is go be a better person somewhere else. I won’t rule out a path for Joe here at IU, i just can’t imagine what it would actually be.

        1. Yotomoe

          I think at a certain point you can’t stop people from hating you. The only options are to keep living your life as best as you can or…y’know…Stop living. I don’t really know what else Joe could do at this juncture to atone other than change.

        2. Dandi_Andi

          @Yotomoe
          As i said, he could go be a better person someplace else. He can recognize the harm he did here and find a new community with whom he doesn’t have this history and then commit to not fucking up again.

        3. Big Z

          Honestly, I’m not convinced that he’d need to move to grow into being accepted.
          –
          I recognize these are not MY college days, but Back In My Day it was often the case that “freshman year” was when a LOT of guys decided to change course, especially at the big state schools where a lot of folks who started out being raised in a frankly misogynistic environment (which we know Joe was!) end up going. I mean, hell, I went from being the guy who sent secret admirer letters (I was fuckin’ cringe even when I was a proto-incel) to being invited along (by some of the ladies on my floor, who knew about my inability to treat women as normal people in my first semester — thanks to Jen in particular, wherever you ended up) and eventually a valuable member of the gay-straight alliance (this alone probably dates me) and Take Back the Night organizations by junior year.
          –
          Frankly, some of that is going to also likely run on comic time. The gang and the campus are likely to forgive Joe faster than the average college kids for the same reason that no one’s likely to go nuclear about the cheating duo — if everyone reacted mostly realistically, we wouldn’t have a main cast anymore.

        4. Dandi_Andi

          @Big Z
          I’m not sure that he *has* to leave either, but that is always an option. I do think Sarah and Rachel could facilitate an arc for Joe where he actually rebuilds trust with the people he’s hurt, i just don’t know what that would have to look like for me.

          I’m glad you had a trusting, supportive group of friends to help you through the process of growing. I don’t think any body can truly say they don’t have any growing left to do, especially not teenagers. I certainly did. I was desperate to perform masculinity because i was deep in denial about my own gender feelings at the time. While I’m very grateful for the friends who stayed with me and have me space to be kind of a problem, I also have to recognize that I burnt a lot of bridges and most of them are going to stay burnt. Because the tricky thing about change is that promises of change are easy to make but hard to falsify until someone else gets hurt. And “I think if you as a hole first and a person second at all” invites the kind of harm that it’s just not reasonable to expect people to take a risk on.

    3. dLileh

      He was an ass, but I don’t think there was a reason to be afraid of him. He wanted to get into your pants and brag about it afterwards -> Not cool!
      But he always exepted “no” for an answer.
      So he was an idiot, but not a dangerous person.

      1. Thag Simmons

        As audience members for whom Joe is a PoV character, we know this. The girls Joe was interacting with very much did not.

      2. thejeff

        And he only sort of “always accepted no as an answer”. We know he had to be yelled at to get him to stop trying to hit on people sometimes. And that he’d come back and try again even after being turned down hard.
        We never saw him interact with anyone who wasn’t willing to make the necessary scene about it.
        Part of the problem with Old Joe is that we never really got to see him at work on anyone who didn’t shut him down hard from the start. We never saw him succeed.

  38. zee

    Hehehe, they’re so perfect together :)

  39. Rimwalker55

    Totally raises my admiration for Joe continuing his growth arc. Sounds like Sal enjoys sailing on Da Nile though. :-D

  40. Big Z

    First off, still loving that Sal’s love language is “anything but a love language, please, I’m aloof and independent and tuff” and that Danny seems to fully understand that.

    Second, kinda related — does it seem like Sal’s basically had this response to both Joe and Walky? “Relationships/sex ain’t shit, go out and get another one.” I think it says more about the image Sal wants to present than it does about her actual feelings on the matter, frankly.

    1. Rimwalker55

      Total agree

    2. apocryphascribe

      Malaya said it best, Sal tries to act cool. She’s just *really* good at the act (and also, she is naturally cool by default), so it’s harder to suss out, but this is 100% an image thing she’s doing here.

    3. Mr.Morningstar

      Sal, seems to treat relationships more casually in general. i think she runs by any hurt feelings by just jumping to another one or finding someone hot to do the hanky panky with because its easier than admitting she actually liked the guy and now its over.

      Plus, yunno her myriad of trust issues and putting on this serious facade of trying to be really cool, (and she is pretty cool) and aloof even when she’s feeling the exact opposite.

      She’s allergic to genuine conversations about her emotions.

    4. Doopyboop

      I think the main reason for that thought process is the men she’s talking to. Joe spent the first semester sleeping with as many women as he could, with Joyce as the only time he’s actually tried for a relationship, hence Sal assuming he’d go back to his usual after. And with Walky, even putting aside his relationship stuff from the last semester, if we consider the past week from Sal’s eyes? Her brother went from dating Lucy, to pretending to break up with Lucy and pretending to date his ex, Amber, then back to Lucy only to break up, then getting back with his OTHER ex only for THEM to break up. I can see where she’d assume he’d just go right back to Amber or something after all that dosy-doing.

    5. embe13

      sal has reasonable issues with archtylpal “relationships” (like her parents with her dads enabling of their moms racism for the sake/blindness of “loveand happyness”) that makes it make sense to me that she would consider relationships to be easily replaceable. and we already know she understanding towards casual sex (anyone remember her sleeping with a certain ta?)

  41. Stormtide Leviathan

    Joe certainly needs more emotional intimacy in his life but I’m not sure this rejection of casual sex is great for him either (at least in the long term. in the short term i could see it being more what he needs). It feels more like rejecting everything about his old self cause he doesn’t like who he was. I feel like he’d do well having both, a partner or partners he can be emotionally intimate with and casual sex with other people. And I certainly don’t think the implication that growth for him must look like moving past casual sex to stable monogamy would be great, though I also think Willis realizes that and that isn’t necessarily what they’re doing. And I do think still-into-casual-sex-but-far-less-misogynistic-about-it Joe would be a fun direction to take him. (Especially still dealing with the consequences of who he was; ie, a lot of people aren’t gonna like him off the bat, for very good reasons, but there’s clearly still people like Malaya who don’t care, and others who might see that he’s changed a bit. )

    1. Dot

      I think this is a valid critique but I also think it’s fine for Joe’s growth to have taken him to a place where he’s decided that casual, uncommitted sex no longer has appeal to him. That’s also a valid way to be.

  42. bliss

    Casual sex is obsolete! At least with other people. Once you drag other people into sex or even if they jump in willingly then a lot of invisible matters come into play. All you can know about is the surface
    of the partners but mental/emotional and physical matters come into play.
    Sex should be deliberate and careful of the other parties(if any) involved.

    1. Big Z

      Hard disagree.

  43. Mr.Morningstar

    This feels directed at everyone who was convinced he’d go bacck to his old ways after the fallout.

    But it would be weird to do all that character developement to just do a full 360 back to the starting point without anything interesting to add to it.

  44. Mr.Morningstar

    As an aside whenever I click the “Save my name etc. etc.” in the comments box it just… Doesn’t do that? Is that just a me issue or what?

  45. Rogue 7

    Danny was kind of my last hope for someone to be upset with Joyce & Dorothy over how they’ve treated others since they hooked up.
    The big issue is the cheating, and I’ll get to that, but I also want to mention being absolutely horrible roommates to Sarah- not only getting it on while she’s in the room with them (whether or not they were full-on fucking or just making out or whatever doesn’t really matter, honestly. Anything past first base shouldn’t really be cool when there’s another person trying to sleep there) but that the “move in” conversation didn’t include her at all.
    But yeah, the cheating and treatment of Joe & Walky is really the big one. If DoJo had been single when they hooked up, I personally would still have some minor complaints but the big ones wouldn’t be there. Because, and while I only speak for myself I think there are other folks who would agree, the main issue comes down to this:

    A lot of people expected that some negative feelings towards our two protagonists might develop as a result of their actions having hurt people. Dina, Becky, Joe, and Walky were all hurt by DoJo getting together- Joe & Walky directly, while Becky & Dina were more “caught in the crossfire” in that DoJo hooking up dredged up some very complicated feels on Becky’s part. But none of those people are at all upset with DoJo. Becky was happy to circle back to her performative enmity with Dorothy with the understanding that the two are deeply connected underneath it. Dina, while perhaps not necessarily *accepting* Joyce’s advice, is still listening to her. Joe is still patiently waiting for Joyce to talk to him again. He seems to have calmly accepted that Joyce will never prioritize his feelings the way she does Dorothy’s. And Walky has done a bit of self-reflection and told Joyce that she was being a dink only for the conversation to immediately move on and never return to the topic.
    Danny & Sal, the best friend and sister of those cheated on, on top of Danny being Dorothy’s ex, haven’t given any sort of indication that they think DoJo did anything wrong. Sure, they’re sympathetic to Walky & Joe over relationships ending, but that’s it.

    We’ve seen the pain that DoJo getting together caused. Joe has *definitely* been emotionally kicked in the balls, Walky retreated into nuggies, and the Becky/Dina fallout is ongoing. That’s a good amount of “consequences” for those of us who care about such things. But we haven’t seen, and I don’t think we’re going to see, any of that pain blow back onto Joyce or Dorothy. So far, the closest they’ve come to that was when Sarah ineffectually defended Joe for a couple of strips.

    That’s my big issue.

    1. Dandi_Andi

      Joyce and Dorothy did not hurt Becky and Dina. BECKY hurt Becky and Dina. Having a crush on someone does not give you the right to dictate who they date or how they express their feelings. Becky’s failure to handle her feelings in a healthy way, no matter how understandable that is, is NOT Joyce or Dorothy’s fault.

      1. Big Z

        I’m pretty sure that’s what Rogue7 was trying to convey — DoJo didn’t do anything other than create a situation where Becky had complex feelings that are her own responsibility
        –
        Which still wouldn’t make it out of character for Becky to have a grudge with one or both of DoJo about it, mind you, it doesn’t have to be RIGHT for someone to feel a feeling.

      2. Rogue 7

        What Big Z said.

        The sentence “We’ve seen the pain that DoJo getting together caused.” was very particularly crafted that way- it means that the act, rather than any of the people, caused the hurt.

        But I would put fort the idea that “teenagers who are hurt oftentimes have a lot of trouble separating the act from the actor” is a pretty reasonable one. And both Becky and Dina near-instantly separated them.

        1. Dandi_Andi

          “Dina, Becky, Joe, and Walky were all hurt by DoJo getting together”

          This is what inspired my response. If that’s not what you meant, then I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. But i stand by my position that Dina and Becky were hurt by Becky’s failure to process her emotions in a healthy way and that listing them as people who were hurt by Joyce and Becky getting together is at least a little disingenuous.

        2. Rogue 7

          Again, please note the specific word choice- “By Dorothy & Joyce getting together”. The action, not the people involved.

        3. Dandi_Andi

          And again, that is not what hurt them.

    2. yak

      I think Sarah is definitely the one who is the most incensed, she just hasn’t blown up on them yet. She did offer the most direct criticism they’ve gotten so far, though.

      I don’t really think Joe or Walky *should* get mad. Joe’s holding out hope when he probably shouldn’t, but I wouldn’t be getting pissed on his behalf if he were my friend. It’s surprising that Walky is apparently choosing to stay friends with them but again I don’t think I’d be pissed on his behalf.

      I guess I expected the friend group to quietly shrink over this but it hasn’t.

      1. apocryphascribe

        I want Walky to get legitimately upset for reasons other than the cheating because tbh it’s small potatoes for him. His relationship with Dorothy was already on the rocks for several reasons, not the least of which was her giving him the runaround wrt Lucy and that whole ordeal (which, by the way, is VERY RECENT in universe, like maybe a week before now?). I don’t even need him to direct those feelings AT Dorothy. Hell, she doesn’t need to be involved at all! Same goes for Joe wrt Joyce. Just looking for more interiority and conflict and “dumbing” beyond them taking it on the chin and keeping it pushing.

  46. Rimwalker55

    Many people expressed concern about Walky’s emotional damage thru Joyce/Dorothy, so it might help to review how his convalescence is progressing

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/rescinded/
    https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/whatinheck/

  47. Rosicrucian

    Oh for crying out loud, Joe did not set up Dorothy so Joyce would cheat on him and he could make a play for a poly relationship.

    Joe has known Danny and Dorothy longer than he’s known the rest of the cast. Even though he and Dorothy were antagonistic when they were younger, he was able to spot what Dorothy was going through even though Dorothy wasn’t quite ready to process it yet. That’s the level of familiarity they’re at, and he was at a point in his life where he doesn’t feel antagonistic toward her and he didn’t want her to have to process some difficult feelings alone.

    The idea that cheating means permission to steer things in a certain direction is pretty damaged reasoning.

    At this point, I’m not even really sure Joe has considered what a poly relationship would really entail, and what work would be needed, even if all parties agreed. It might not be 100% desperation move, but it is him trying to figure out how to keep Joyce in his life because he liked where things were headed.

    1. HueSatLight

      When someone says a character did something wrong, that doesn’t mean they said the character did the equivalent of murder, so no need to cry out loud. Joe tried to figure out a way that he could keep her in his life, nudged Dorothy in that direction, which is how he himself described it, but without talking to Joyce about it first. Even when the opportunity presented itself, when Joyce insisted she’d been faithful and wouldn’t do anything with Dorothy while she was with Joe.

  48. superglucose

    I genuinely love Sal and Danny. They’re super cute together and they make each other better.

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