The Dumbing of Age Book 15 Kickstarter is in that fun meanderingly slow crawl between $45K and $50K, so, hey, remember last week when we unlocked the DAPPER DINA magnet? Fun times!
Joe: So I guess you didn't have a space in your heart for me to keep occupying, after all. y'know, next to dorothy's.
Joyce: I-- I do!
Joyce: It's just... I mean, you dedicate your mind, body, and soul to ONE person, and if you're lucky, you get to live the rest of your life with that one person. You're not supposed to come home every day to TWO people who... HATE each other.
Joe: I don't hate Dorothy.
Joyce: You two do NOT GET ALONG.
Joyce: And she would NOT like the idea of me dating both of you, believe me.
Joe: "She wouldn't--" ...you haven't told her we haven't broken up yet, have you.
Joyce: I BROKE UP WITH YOU! MOSTLY! I typed it in at you and pressed enter! but, like, i guess that LITTLE WHEEL is still spinning, like on a computer.
199 thoughts on “Occupying”
NGPZ
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
…
… Dina is gonna be PISSED
TrueSurvivor
Could you explain. I think I am missing something. Also how have you been?
NGPZ
i have but few spoons to tell you I’ve been objectively TERRIBLE
sneezing and coughing RELENTLESSLY for a week straight now, barely any sleep, back ache-ing, endless snot, hacking mucus out of my lungs it feels like
so I went in to check it out today
good news is, it ain’t COVID or flu
bad news is, it’s bronchitis, and imma need saline nasal spray and a rescue inhaler,
MUST remember to mouth wash and brush after each impromptu use of the latter
FUN FUN FUN @~@
TrueSurvivor
Jesus Christ, you can’t just catch a break this year can you? I am so sorry. I hope you feel better soon.
Intragalactic
I hope you feel better soon!
Astariel
I’m surprised that Joe didn’t see them as broken up, given some of the things he said to Sarah and Danny.
Also, that’s really beautifully put by Joyce in the first bubble of panel 2. I hope she gets that (with Dorothy).
Dot
It’s a lovely image, but in this context it’s also centering monogamous relationships as normative, which isn’t great.
AlexanderHammil
I’m not sure it’s all that lovely an image, even. It’s very much in line with Joyce’s other unreconstructed fundie beliefs, and something that, if this strip actually ever got beyond the first year of college, she would probably unpack at some point. Joyce’s fixation on a one singular love that fixes everything and renders all other relationships moot or irrelevant has been a consistent character trait since Roomies, and while she’s expressing it a lot more pleasantly here than she was in 1999 or whenever, it’s still a received belief that isn’t held up by either her experience or that of… i think literally anyone she knows.
Dot
It reveals a lot of her biases about how relationships and the world are supposed to work, but on a fundamental level I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with wanting to build a home with your partner. I want that too.
Grimey
I think Joe is more bothered that Dorothy hasn’t been informed about…ANY OF THIS conversation. He assumed Joyce was keeping things above board with Dorothy. He suspected they were broken up but Joyce kept putting the conversation off in the face of the revelation that he’d be open to both of them dating Joyce. I assume in his mind, Joyce had paused the convo to talk it over with Dorothy.
geno
Nah Joe pretty explicitly tells Danny they aren’t broken up which is part of Danny is upset
Alongcameaspider
I mean to be fair y’all weren’t exactly actively together since the kiss (minus one very enthusiastic thanking for a gift)
They were paused at least
Leorale
Ross and Rachel were on a break!!
zombie
joyyyyyce you are so poly please figure this out about yourself and let it happen
anon
don’t think joyce is against being poly but she’s still on the assumption her two partners hate each other, even if poly couples where there are some in the group that don’t get along i’d assume it’d still be most ppl picking those who’d get along versus, I have two partners but they both hate each other so i alternate days ispend with them/they keep their distnace
steamweed
Joyce, what’s it gonna take for you to release your delusion that they hate each other?
Do Dorothy and Joe gotta kiss in front of you or what?
deliverything
Well, it’s worth a try.
Smallmoon
crack theory: This ends with Joe scooping Joyce up, carrying her to Dorothy, and proposing the provisional polycule with Joyce as the hinge to Dorothy to rip the BAND-AID™ brand adhesive bandage off, one way or another. Dorothy shocks Joe by not only agreeing to being metamours, but being open to putting the third leg on the triangle, if only because Joyce is turning a fascinating shade of red and that’s giving Dorothy feelings that seem worth exploring.
Victor Mortimer
Please don’t do that.
It’s a bandaid. The word has been genericized, it applies to ALL bits of adhesive flexible material with a bit of gauze now, no matter what some evil multinational corporation wants. And they are a truly horrible company: https://newrepublic.com/article/194726/johnson-and-johnson-investigation-crimes-health-care-system
But yeah, maybe Joe really does need to force the issue. Let’s get this polycule started!
Thag Simmons
Ah, there we go. Let’s get messy with it
Elf grrl
Hahaha.. Yes. Yesss!!
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Joyce blames everything on Shub-Internet eating the packets!
Dot
TOTAL SICKO VICTORY 87% LOADED
Dot
Gotta love:
* Joyce making sweeping declarations regarding Dorothy’s feelings without actually consulting her
* Joyce making lovely romantic statements that also belie deep seated biases about the world which she refuses to interrogate
* Joyce immediately falling apart when she receives the slightest pushback on her presuppositions
–
This one’s got it all!
AK
We’re hitting all the classics.
zee
The holy Joyce trinity. Growth incoming
redcaela
MESSNADOOOOOO
Needfuldoer
She always has to tell herself grandiose stories as a backdrop for her feelings.
apocryphascribe
FINALLY, WE’RE WINNING ONCE AGAIN
bwooom
SMILING SO WIDE. I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS TO BE TALKED ABOUTTTT. joyce’s previously seen fascination with polyamory running up against what she doesn’t yet realize are ingrained christian beliefs (“you dedicate your mind body and soul to ONE person”) is so fun also. she’s been so happy to change for the better she got really caught up in it and doesn’t see what’s still there. “no no no that’s not a christianity thing that’s just what’s ABSOLUTELY TRUE about the world!!!” ect
Meadow
YESSSSSSSS MESS TIME
TrueVCU
Somewhere, Amber is tingling and she does not know why
JA
Get the popcorn, boys and girls and NBs.
NGPZ
🍿🥤🌭🥨
let’s all go down to the lobby,
and get ourselves some snax,
somethin somethin i forget the rest
clif
The version I recall specifies treats.
Let’s all go to the lobby and get ourselves a treat
There are delicious things to eat
The popcorn can’t be beat
The sparkling drinks
are just dandy
The chocolate bars ‘nd nut candy,
So –
Let’s all go to the lobby and get ourselves a treat
clif
And now I’m hungry.
Li
And There It Is.
Li
“there what is, Li?” Well, a few things:
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– Joyce, not for the first time, is saying very clearly here that she DOES very much want to date both Joe and Dorothy. She’s just very sure that that Isn’t Allowed, so she’s been struggling to let herself even fully process Joe’s offer.
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— Alas for some readers, Joyce has now also confirmed that she would agree with the “they haven’t actually broken up, Joe is owed a conversation” half of the argument that’s been going on in the comment section.
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— Joe has now also underscored for us, helpfully, that Joyce having delayed the breakup and asked Joe to give her time to come back and finish that conversation might be an issue for Dorothy, since Dorothy is currently under the impression that Joyce had ended things unambiguously. (And I love that he has semi-angry eyebrows over it: I think for several reasons, Joe might actually view this arguable-deception of Dorothy more uncharitably than he viewed the impulsive kiss and subsequent eighteen ish hours of not telling him about it.) (One of those reasons is that I don’t think Joe values himself all that highly as a person, but an argument could be made that this lie of omission to Dorothy has been a more conscious choice and has lasted for a longer time — even though imho both of them are rooted in Joyce’s reluctantance to hurt people she loves.)
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— oh yeah, and then there’s also the bit where Joyce actually suggests out loud with her mouth that Dorothy and Joe “hate each other”, and Joe pushes back on that. Now, admittedly, the comment section’s assertion has mostly been “Dorothy hates Joe”, but it’s still nice to have the idea raised and argued against.
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(I think Dorothy has had a range of opinions on Joe over the years since she first met him as Danny’s friend, but I remain firmly in the camp of “her resentment of him has, for a while now, been inextricably tied up in her deeply repressed jealousy over Joyce, and I think her outburst at him after he confronted her about her feelings was something even she would call unfair now, and that that conversation put them on the path to finally being actual friends someday, rather than just Dorothy kind of putting up with him because he’s important to someone she loves”.
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And like, I COULD be completely off base but we genuinely have not had any indication since that argument that Dorothy hates Joe.
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If anything, I think she might have been more likely to agree to this arrangement immediately out of possibly misplaced guilt over what happened here, if Joyce had mentioned it earlier. Now, I think Joyce’s delay in mentioning it is at LEAST gonna be an undercurrent to their conversation.)
Cbwroses
I enjoyed this analysis 🧐
Li
Hee, aw thanks.
Elf grrl
Coming back not even 20 minutes later to post this wonderful analysis is true dedication, Li. Thank u
Li
That’s my secret, Elf grrl. I’m always analyzing.
.
(But ff thank you!)
Needfuldoer
Dorothy hates Old Joe, so she’s not receptive to the idea that New Joe isn’t just more of the same. (Old Joe was always a front.)
Li
See, I don’t even think this is true (that she hates Old Joe). I think Dorothy has CLAIMED to have always hated Old Joe, but if you go back to see their earliest interactions…
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I’m reversing a little here because thejeff made this point to me months ago, more or less, and I argued with them. And I think it’s still possible that Early Joe and Dorothy interactions came from a place of not having yet fully settled on what their history was…
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But, now that we’re HERE, and Joe has raised this point in the text, I am definitely more inclined to think, maybe Dorothy found Joe a little annoying but still considered him at least a friendly acquaintance before… Joyce.
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And I mean that kind of in multiple senses of the word: that Ryan’s attack on Joyce probably made Dorothy reexamine what you’re calling Old Joe, and that she could have easily recategorized his behavior from “exasperating” to “genuinely harmful”.
.
Like, Old Joe never shut up about his list: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/boyspizzaretreat/ and I think Dorothy reacted to it at some point in the early rin of the comic with the therefore-expected full lack of surprise, but it was probably pretty easy to dismiss as “boys being boys” prior to Ryan, and especially prior to Ryan apparently using the descriptions of girls on it to find Joyce’s dorm building.
.
But, of course, then there are Dorothy’s developing feelings for Joyce, which she was in the aforementioned deep denial about, and which she so far seems to have dealt with by trying to alchemize it into Normal Mom Friend Protectiveness.
.
(Like, for all the joking and irritable-not-joking around this topic that we’ve had in the comments, I do think there was a noticeable uptick, post-timeskip, in Dorothy trying to adopt that role with Joyce, even culminating in her angry “Joyce is NOT ‘mine’!” to Jennifer when Jennifer was encroaching on the “Mom Friend” territory.
.
Unfortunately, this was pretty quickly followed by “Joyce is probably autistic” becoming text, so if Willis meant us to notice that Dorothy was Mom Friending harder than usual, I bet they were NOT anticipating how many of us would connect it to Joyce’s functionally-a-diagnosis. Oops!)
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So, we get from Point A, where Dorothy tried to present herself as “your friend, Dorothy” in order to interview Joe, to Point B, where she waited until Joyce was out of earshot before very darkly telling him to “find different prey”.
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Or, in other words: I don’t even know that I think Dorothy HAS always hated “Old Joe”.
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Addendum: but also, to address your parenthetical — I mean, it matters for Joe Character Analysis if we think that “Old Joe” was always a front, but it’s not really something he or we should be expecting other characters to take as a mitigating factor in whether or not they consider that behavior unacceptable.
.
The guy who makes gross sexual comments about people’s bodies all the time because he likes making them uncomfortable sucks, but the guy who does it because he’s just insecure in his own masculinity… also sucks. That second guy is making just as many other people miserable, and he still needs to cut it out. The Freudian Excuse only takes you so far.
Neptune
I love how messy this is!
anon
at least ther’es no murdersuicide pact yet 8D;
clif
Yes, it does seem incomplete somehow.
Icalasari
Give Walky and Amber time to fill the void that Billie and Ruth left behind
Vaishino
The girl told him to his face she was breaking up with him and she can’t date two people, if he’s shocked that she considered them broken up, that’s on him.
That said, the powers of the dumping stairs are strong, Joe’s gonna get dumped a second time from the same relationship here.
clif
Don’t trust the breaking up stairs.
Or the dumping stairs.
Or the stairs formally known as the dumping stairs.
thejeff
He’s not shocked she thinks she broke up with him. He’s shocked she hasn’t told Dorothy that she hasn’t. Which she then confirms in the last panel with the “mostly”.
eh, whatever
The girl told him to his face she was breaking up with him and she can’t date two people
And then he asked back, and she ran away. That means the conversation is still ongoing. There’s nothing to be surprised about here.
Astariel
Exactly. She dumped him before and she confirms it in the last panel here.
StarryMoon
“I broke up with you! Mostly!” isn’t a 100% breakup. Completely breaking up with someone is kinda needed to to completely breakup with someone.
clif
The wheel may still be turning, but she still hit return.
Li
I mean there’s no literal return button, is the thing. In the metaphor, the wheel is spinning because her computer or phone or whatever is still in the process of “sending” the message.
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As in Joe hasn’t received it yet.
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Because the words haven’t actually made their way out of her mouth yet.
zee
She literally confirms that she doesn’t see herself as having fully broken up with him, she’s being defensive about it because she feels bad about it
thejeff
The denial has been really strong here this whole scene, starting with the first strip and people saying “Well they’ve talked now, it’s over, stop mentioning poly.”
mads_in_zero
I’ve been thinking for a while now that Joyce would hypothetically be okay with dating multiple people, in a sort of I-want-a-solution-that-makes-everyone-happy kinda way, and that Joe might even be down, but that Dorothy wouldn’t be, and this particular triad wouldn’t work.
I failed to anticipate this crashing into Joyce’s fundamentalist upbringing leading her to devise a sort of “booking two dinners at the same fancy restaurant on the same night” kind of classic zany two-timing scheme.
Look out, Joyce! I know nobody’s explained polyamory to you but you need healthy communication between all parties! Oh no!
Dot
Notably, just declaring “Dorothy wouldn’t be okay with this” without asking Dorothy if she’s okay with this is not healthy communication.
mads_in_zero
I do suspect she’s right in this instance, but yeah… she should really ask.
Heck, even I might be surprised at her answer.
Rakeesh
It’s bad communication between Dorothy and Joyce, and it’s also offloading the guilt and onus of the breakup onto Dorothy’s (supposed) preference.
Theozilla
Oh yes, the other shoe is finally finally starting to drop. I know not much time has passed in the in-universe narrative but this has definitely been one of the more agonizing things to wait on in real-time.
I do like the way Joyce is describing how she still hasn’t really totally broken up with Joe yet, classic Joyce. I do wonder if this will prompt her to formalize and finiish it (the break-up) now or if she will feel obligated to bring up Joe’s proposal to Dorothy because some small part of her still isn’t willing to let go of Joe yet/finds the proposal appealing?
Reltzik
And the little wheel is going to keep on spinning, because your latency is terrible. That’s why you’re on the dumb ping stairs.
Wack'd
well i’m gonna go turn off the comments. nothing’s gonna beat this
Jeff K!
Hey, Wack’d, I’m sorry about the report. That button is right where I need to scroll on my phone, please ignore any reports from me.
Wack'd
don’t sweat it. who files a report is not information i receive
David Chenot
+1 Internets!
Thing 2
Have an internet!
Andrusi