dumbing of age book 16: THIS IS BIPHOBIA!

Threeway


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Tags: danny, joe, sal

242 thoughts on “Threeway

  1. …why did I have a feeling this was gonna happen XD

    everybody bust out their bingo cards, buckets of popcorn and/or blast shields and brace yourselves for another Very Normal comments section!

    1. Joe really set himself up this whole arc lol

      1. Next up, Joe has a boating expedition on the Nile, which he angrily insists is only a river in Egypt.

        1. Joe is pretty okay with the whole situation, and Joyce doesn’t want to break up with him. If anyone is in denial it’s Dorothy.

    2. it’s nice danny is more upset on joe’s behalf tho i can imagine it’s more beef with dorothy and danny being confrontational

  2. I chuckled. That is all.

    1. Bwahahahaha, indeed. Comic is way behind the comments with this joke!

  3. alternately, Dumbing of Age Book 16: Making the Rest of Us Look Bad

    1. Damn, beat me to that exact comment lol

      1. Dumbing of Age Book 16: Yeah, Dorothy

  4. Mm. Not sure I like Danny being upset that his lifelong best friend was cheated on by his ex being just kind of played off as a joke, but maybe he’s storming off to yell at Dorothy. This was one of the big reactions I was looking forward to and I feel let down. I feel like Danny should be more concerned with how his friend was hurt than how it looks for bisexual people.

    1. This has been a recurring problem with this storyline for me as well. It feels like Willis really wants every/every other strip to end with a “gag”, but it doesn’t really fit the seemingly serious tone of what’s going on.

      Or perhaps it is more that *we* view it, that is to say, the whole situation, as something to be taken seriously, whereas the narrative doesn’t beyond the reactions of certain specific characters (Joe, Becky, Dina). I’m not sure.

      1. If you subscribe to the DoA patreon, you can view some of the early drafts of strips with commentary, even without going into a paid tier – I recall for the scene where Joyce and Dorothy finally kiss, Willis had a moment of being swept up by the momentum of what the characters would do (rather than the plans he had for the scene) and realized that rather than them kissing and going “hm! well! that’s not great” and going back to their boyfriends and forgetting about it… oops this is kinda symbolically a marriage proposal.

        So I think this storyline of Joyce and Dorothy actually getting together being somewhat pushed forward by spur-of-the-moment momentum kinda explains some of the pacing issues, maybe?

        1. Yes, that’s old news, but I’m more concerned with characterization than pacing here.

        2. I think it makes sense, Danny’s in his newly-out, “making atrocious bi puns” era of being bi, so that this is where his mind immediately jumps to is in-character, I feel.

      2. But this is what the comic IS: somewhere between a story and a gag at the end of the strip. The very frequency tells you that. And no, some joke are not going to land well with some people sometimes.
        I thought “Great Bores of Today” was hilarious until I found the one that was essentially me. It’s funny to me now to tell that story, tho! But the series was making fun of people, so what can one expect?
        So.
        If gag strips are distressing, why not go for comics that don’t do it? I’m here for the art and the laughs and now and then the lump in the throat.

        1. When there’s a throwaway gag at the end of a serious strip just because it’s the last panel and we need to hit quota, it feels out of place. It’s like having Klinger pop in while Hawkeye’s crying about the chicken/baby.

        2. This isn’t just “a throwaway gag at the end of serious strip” though. Danny’s whole reaction is about the biphobia. Panel 3 he’s talking about the harmful stereotype.

    2. Queer identity is kind of a big thing, I guess, especially among people who are only just discovering it. It’s not the best ever look for Danny but I’m willing to give him a pass especially since he’s been a good egg for a while.

      1. And it’s not like Danny hasn’t made it about him in horribly inappropriate moments in the past. It’s what tanked his budding relationship with Ethan, after all.

        1. Yeah, this is a blind spot that Danny has shown before, and he was definitely the cast member most “due” to do something ridiculously stupid and impulsive.

      2. A good egg, but slightly cracked.

        1. If this gag is really all we’re doing with him here, you could say it was over easy

        2. to make an omelet, ya gotta bust a couple of dos huevos, ammi right? XD

      3. Joe has made a lot of Danny’s vulnerable moments about him, or otherwise refused to be supportive, so I kind of see it as payback. Maybe it’s also just their dynamic.

    3. Well damn, my “Walky and Joe don’t actually have any real friends looking out for them” opinion keeps getting more proof by the day. A shame, really.

      1. It’s times like these one begins missing Mike

        1. man, if mike came back, that would make everything worth it ngl

        2. I want him to just walk back on screen with no explanation.

        3. I want him to just walk back on screen with no explanation.
           
          “Your mom, for a nickel. Next question?”

      2. i don’t think walkys rly that bothered by it tho i wonder if booster would rly judge dorothy for it

    4. If I were to give the benefit of the doubt here I’d say this is obviously a joke beat and that there’s plenty of potential and narrative room for Danny to return and be more supportive later. This will not be their last interaction and sometimes comedy can reframe the situation as not being as bad if jokes are being made.

    5. Dot:
      Yeah, lets go be angry at Dorothy. She just wanted, and only even acknowledged that because Joe spelled it out. Joyce made the opening bid, joyce made the running, Joyce married Dorothy when Dorothy was trying to have a heroic moment. Dorothy said repeatedly that they had to tell their boyfriends.

      1. Dorothy’s also the only one really feeling any guilt about any of it, while Joyce was actively throwing Joe under the bus and rewriting her history with Dorothy as the greatest and most heroic love story ever told.

      2. Dorothy is also the one who Danny knows in this situation, and he just had a conversation with her where he told her that it wasn’t ok to cheat just because she’s bi. Why is it unreasonable for Danny to snap at her in these circumstances? Danny is not omniscient! Danny doesn’t read the strip!

        1. Let’s = Let us, the readers. Or even you specifically. Not Danny.

    6. I read it as Danny being legit upset for Joe. But when Joe’s like ”Nah, I told her to”, Danny doesn’t know what to do with those feelings and redirects them into the second part of his reaction (which is frustration/dissapointment with Dorothy for her going against what he told her when they spoke about it).

      Hm. Additionally, maybe it’s just me, but; I feel having like reacting to having one’s upset feelings be shown to be based on a misunderstanding of a situation by doubling down on a joke, is a normal/common/natural reaction, isn’t it? D:

      1. But he’s already talking about it being a harmful stereotype before Joe says that.

        1. He’s still upset for his friend. It’s two things. Genuinely don’t understand how you people function. You are just as controlling as fundies. Everyone must always be perfect in every situation even though they are all dumb teens

      2. i agree with kim here, panel 2 danny doesnt know what to say, or what o be more upset about, and the way he stumbles over his words, are leadign me to feel that way. aloso it feels like he can tell joe isnt super upset and so isnt sure about how upset on his friends behalf so he hedges by pivoting/offering an off ramp with the harmful stereotype, and upon joe confirming that he pushed dorothy into joyces bed, danny goes for performative outrage about the part of this he genuinely has the right to be upset about (his friend upon discovering her latent sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, is advised that being bi is not a free pass to cheat,then goes and cheats) and aggrandises for the amusement of his friend.

        i worry that for some of those who were really eager for there to be more outrage, unfortunately set themselves up for guarenteed disapointment due to the serialized nature and comedic focus of the comic. as if this was even a single fullbook page style comic (marvel/dc style) where we’d get 3+times the story at a time, or a weekly where we got 7 strips at a time, we would be ingesting the story in larger clumps that may have helped with controlling their expectations regarding how and when and intensity of in world reactions to events. even if we were saying this strip was going for a more dunesbury style the nature of the daily strip drip story telling is going to cause us to over emphasize individual events.

    7. I mean joe is on screen right now visably not upset, why would danny be upset on his behalf when joe is telling him it’s not a big deal. There is an argument that danny getting angry on his behalf when he can’t would be an interesting place to take it, but the last strip already established that joe’s old friends are still pretty bad at handling a version of him that is emotionally open.

    8. Trying to shoe-horn a gag at every strip really undercuts… well, everything.

      This comic revolves around relationships and feelings, so why does everything have to be a bit?

    9. I don’t read it as a joke, because Danny seems genuinely upset (sparkle eyes) and Sal looks worried staring after him.

      Yeah, he’s having a strong reaction, but I don’t think it’s merely clownish, I think it’s showing how strong Danny feels about it (and we know that Dorothy came to Danny for advice and he said cheating is unacceptable then, too).

      It’s a matter of personal interpretation really whether you find the fact that Dorothy’s ex Danny (who told Dorothy not to cheat) is more upset than Joe (who encouraged Dorothy to go after his girlfriend), but as some also point out it can be very seriously questioned too as ‘Joe, are you being TOO much of an optimist and self-saboteur here – is Danny right?’

    10. We don’t really know at this point but I read this, at least potentially, as Danny choosing to make a joke out of it to mask how he is really feeling. Danny really tries to be a kind person and can be a bit conflict avoidant at times. He just found out that his ex cheated on her boyfriend with his best friends girlfriend. I wouldn’t be surprised if what is going through his head in panel 2 are a bunch of significantly angrier thoughts before settling on one that, while genuine is a bit more comedic and further removed from the actual problem here. He now gets to storm off in a huff without actually being mean.
      Yes, this is not the cathartic moment that many in this comment section is waiting for, but it makes sense.

  5. Well, I’m relieved that the preview panel of Danny storming out the room didn’t turn out to be him being mad at Sal about something.

  6. He’s going to find Ethan, right now, for reasons.

  7. Okay, pack it in everyone. Willis says we can’t criticize their favorite ship anymore. If you have any gripes about how Jorothy came to be you’re basically no different then Danny the Strawman over here.

    1. Obviously Mx. Willis has their thumb on the scale in favor of DoJo as a ship – which is their prerogative – but I think this is an uncharitable read of this strip.

      1. Who said it was a charity? I run a for-profit comment section thank you very much!

        1. I will never pay you even one (1) penny (cent) for this. You are a swindler and a fraud.

        2. Your first comment makes me think you have no sense of humor, and your second comment makes me think you do.

    2. R.I.P. good faith, we dont even know where Danny is going rn

    3. I think it’s mostly just a funny self-deprecating joke.

      1. I find it less funny when it is accompanied by Joe essentially taking responsibility for Dorothy’s decision to cheat.

        Like sure, Willis can write whatever story they want. But I think it is a bad move to have Joe be totally accepting of being cheated on, and to even think it was his fault.

        If Willis wanted to do an arc where Joe was totally accepting it would have been soooo easy to do that just by having Joyce talk to him first. Incredibly easy.

        So far it seems like the fact that Joyce cheated on Joe is entirely irrelevant to the plot. It effects basically nothing. And that feels fake. It feels like someone wanted to write in “cheating” for the drama but then didn’t want to actually deal with the fact that it would make the protagonists kind of shitty people… so they walked back any and all realistic consequences so the only people remotely upset are tertiary to the violation of trust.

        1. Yeah. Waiting to see where this goes next, but… yeah. :(

        2. … Joyce and Dorothy themselves said they realized they lost basically all their friends when they talked to Asma???

          for reals tho they had better been SERIOUS about bowling night! D:<

        3. I broadly am not enjoying the Doyce pairing or this story arc, and I don’t expect that to change.

          But Joe’s behaviour is obviously, clearly, delusional cope because the alternative is heartbreak. I have no idea how Willis is going to resolve that, but they are clearly doing something with it.

        4. I get where you’re coming from, though I will say that the recent interaction between Joe and Dina gave me the feeling that this is going to lead to more character development for Joe. This is basically a new flaw that he has picked up as a result of all the work he’s done to sort himself out emotionally; he’s overcorrected in his attempts to grow. He’s gone from being careless about his actions to focusing so much on holding himself accountable that he’s blaming himself even when he’s been wronged. Which has led to him enabling some shitty behavior. I’m remaining hopeful that this will be treated as yet another flaw that he needs to overcome on his path to maturity.

          … Though I think Willis has waited too damn long to show any sign of accountability for Joyce, so hope is dwindling fast on that front.

        5. Not being snotty here, but it has ‘effected’ (made happen) quite a lot of things, whereas I think you are more likely to mean ‘affected’ (caused change to). But please correct me if you did mean effected and you thing nothing has happened.

        6. Odo, I think you have a fundamental misconception. For Joe to think it was his fault he would have to believe that someone did something wrong.

        7. Joyce stole a balloon on Free Balloon day.

        8. I wish people would just accept that Joe is doing fine here. Of course what he has to go through hurts, but I admire what he’s trying to do and how he’s dealing with the situation. He isn’t bending over backwards, he has been preparing for this since before Dorothy herself was even willing to accept that she has feelings for Joyce.

        9. well said antsan! joe is good he is earning ang growingm and while he hurts, this isnt some greater sign of some crippling (in the future) self-esteem issue. joe is allowed to want what he wants, especially when he has thought through the consequences in the way he seems to me to have done. i get from the outside how to some it would see joe is making a rash decisions based on immiture feelings, but to me the entire time joe has come off to me as having thought this thrugh pretty damn well, and with understandings that what he is aiming for is a long shot, and nt something others me think highly of and decided HE still wants it, and that is important, it doesnt matter what any of us think of who he want to have in his life, just that he wants it has reflected o the consequnces and possibilities and decided that he still wants to persue it.

    4. pretty sure danny is doing this as a defense mechanism because he, as a character in the story, has emotional stakes in the current situation and is (poorly) attempting to make it seem bad in a way that isn’t revealing of his longstanding emotional baggage

    5. chances are this strip was written months before Willis ever even saw any of the criticism

      1. Making this all the funnier, if so?

    6. Uhhhh I’m not sure if Danny is actually intended to be particularly in the wrong here?

      1. Yeah, I just figured it was a call-back to the very last thing him and Dorothy talked about and he was slightly offended at her assuming he would engage in cheating behaviour because he was bi. Then what does Dorothy do shortly after talking to him and discovering she was bi…?

        1. Glad you mentioned that because I completely forgot that conversation. Dorothy really did just completely ignore what Danny told her. Which I suppose was obvious from how that conversation ended.

        2. Oh well done. You folks who have an actual infactual intact memory!

        3. Thing 2 Willis made it a rule to not insult or be passive aggressive to other commenters just so you know

        4. Dorothy did not completely ignore what Danny told her, she tried very hard to deny her feelings, not give in to Joyce’s temptation, and avoid cheating on her boyfriend. She specifically said that they couldn’t be together because they were in relationships: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/being-confused/

          She tried to abide by the guidelines of ethical behaviour given to her by Danny and did not succeed. That’s not ignoring, it is listening and agreeing, then making an effort and it coming up short.

        5. Nadamas: ??? That is a very convoluted take on what I said! If you want to think I was being passive aggressive or insulting, I can’t stop you, but I assure everyone I meant it exactly as written. Well done. Meaning: I am impressed and give praise. I do *not* have a good memory and am constantly amazed (and grateful) that others do, and share insights with those of us who don’t!
          Just so you know.

        6. It’s not really convoluted at all, it literally basically said you are impressed that they have basic recollection i have hard time believing you were being sincere with that comment.

      2. He’s partially right but he’s focused on the wrong things. It wasn’t okay for Joyce and Dorothy to cheat, and unfortunately it does play into harmful stereotypes, but that doesn’t mean its biphobia.

        1. Yeah, the “making the rest of us look bad” part makes sense, but it being biphobia is weird.

        2. I’m honestly not sure if he’s saying that Dorothy & Joyce cheating is biphopia, or Joe encouraging Dorothy to cheat is biphobia. Not that it really makes much sense either way. I think it’s mostly a callback to his joke about ‘bangst.’

    7. I think it’s hilarious we assume Danny making the argument renders it invalid.

      :D

      1. It has something to do with the fact that it is immediately undercut by Joe.

        The reason why cheating is bad is because it is a violation of trust. Then we have Joe, the victim of the cheating, saying “It’s all good. Actually it was my decision” which undermines the entire basis for the cheating being bad in the first place. Instead of having harm we just have the theoretical potential for harm.

        So Danny is saying something perfectly reasonable, but the universe is conspiring to excuse Joyce and Dorothy anyway.

        1. In my humble opinion, there is nothing to excuse, and I’m not the only one. So, really, universe, or just some people?

        2. But it *was* Joe’s decision to talk to Dorothy and help her see what she really wanted. Joe want’s Joyce to be happy and he knows Dorothy makes her happy. He’s not taking responsibility for the “cheating” but neither is he upset by it. He still has hopes for a continuing relationship with Joyce, which may or may not be realistic. But either way he wants Joyce to be happy.

          This may not be a position that you can accept or think is healthy, but it is a coherent position.

    8. Come on now, that doesn’t seem like a fair read.

  8. Joe has a point. He did basically tell Dotty to do it.

    1. He definitely pushed Dorothy to get her shit figured out. I don’t think he really anticipated this exact sequence of events, and him trying to act like he did is him coping.

      1. Maybe you should try believing Joe when he says, explicitly and repeatedly, that he was deliberately trying to get Joyce Dorothy. He’s said in the past that he believes that wingman is the highest calling. (I can’t find the strip right now; it’s not the one called “Wingman”, though that’s also relevant.) He’s just being wingman for his girlfriend, like a good Joe.

        1. Yes, again, as I specifically said, he was trying to get Dorothy to figure her shit out, and probably expected that he might have to share Joyce with her – he told Joyce as much, by way of saying that he wanted her to have what she wanted. Did he expect they’d just go off and kiss before actually having a conversation? Did he expect Joyce would cheat on him in that way? I think that’s a lot less clear!

        2. I mean… I’m certainly open to the possibility. I even think it might be a probability at this point. I just think it would be bad writing to do it that way.

          Coping is much more interesting. It gives the cheating actual stakes because it would mean Joe was actually harmed by it. It gives something for the narrative to unravel. How will Joe realize that he’s hurt? What will happen when he does?

          Instead we have a whole lot of nothing.

        3. I don’t want Joe to have succeeded at being a wingman. Joe being a garbage wingman is an important character trait that should be preserved.

        4. Meh. I don’t know if I buy that. I respect Joe’s sentiment but in the moment it reads more like he was being supportive because they both like the same person and that Joyce is a great person worth loving. Not saying “Hey you should go steal my girlfriend.”
          ——
          https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/suggestion/

          ——-

          Also I just hate it because it robs a ton of agency and consequence from one of the comics biggest moments. Over a decade of build up to Joyce and Dorothy but really it was Joe with the last minute push that made it happen. I’d prefer it be cope.

        5. If he was actually trying to hook them up then it’s weird that he didn’t talk to Joyce about it. If he was encouraging Dorothy to make a move, he should tell Joyce that it’s not cheating for her to get with Dorothy.

        6. @Sirksome: Thank you, yes, I would also prefer it to be cope.

          I would also accept “Joe was trying to get Joyce to make a choice due to his own insecurities about deserving someone like her, and when she didn’t do so and cheated instead, he invented the ‘well we could be poly, I’m cool with that, I was totally open to it the whole time’ line rather than face up to the fact that the lady he was improving himself for dropped him like he didn’t even exist when the opportunity arose.”

        7. As usual, I think Big Z has the reads on this one.

          This is Joe convincing himself that he’s fine, because he has no right to have somebody as perfect as Joyce. Easier for him to be OK with it than to admit that Joyce hurt him the same with his father hurt his mother.

        8. john i agree wth you 99% the inly part of this to me that supports the others read on this is the (bonus)strip with danny asking joe why he is staring at the door like a lost puppy, which to me implied more that joe expected joyce to come to talk tohim again more than that he didnt expect them to hook up right away. and i see how that can read that the rest is an act, but the rest of his actions and the words he has said sream at me in BIG NEON LETTERS that joe is fully aware of what he was doing

        9. I am genuinely baffled by this. Joe has said explicitly and repeatedly that he wanted Joyce to be able to smooch and do “other things” with Dorothy the way both girls clearly wanted to. Joe has said in these last couple strips that he deliberately and actively encouraged Dorothy to go after Joyce, and we saw him on-panel doing so. Joe has also told Joyce that she doesn’t need to break up with him, and he clearly doesn’t want her to break up with him.

          So where exactly is the problem with Joyce kissing Dorothy without breaking up with Joe first? Should she have broken up with Joe first? Joe didn’t and doesn’t want her to! Should she have not kissed Dorothy? Joe wanted her to! Should the three of them get together and have an actual conversation about this? Well, yeah, but Joe’s the last person in the cast who’s going to be upset over Joyce going, “Yeah, put a pin in that, I’ve got to go fuck my girlfriend.” So why do you keep insisting that not only Joe but every person they know needs to be Big Mad about this?

        10. It’s really simple: I reject your main premise.

          I don’t believe Joe’s words, I do NOT think this was his preferred endgame, and I think the whole thing is cope because he’s trying to hold onto any scrap of anything rather than admit he lost Joyce because Joyce is, in fact, a flighty romance-obsessed twit sometimes who had the misfortune to realize she was bi AFTER she had spent a lot of effort growing a friendship and then relationship with him.

          I don’t think he necessarily has to be Big Mad, although I continue to think he’d have an absolute right to given he handed them the opportunity to NOT cheat on him on a silver platter. But I don’t think he’s as accepting of this set of outcomes as he wants to pretend he is.

          As for “everyone else”, I think both the set of “people who don’t know Joe is claiming he orchestrated this, and just see these two dorks cheating” AND “people who think Joe is coping and not actually happy about this” have every right to be Big Mad, or at least every right to “interact less with the known cheaters, as is sensible when you find out someone has poor impulse control and bad ethical decisionmaking.”

    2. “This was my plan all along” I say, after biting my hand to hold back the tears

      1. “I’m fine.”
        : )
        “You’re… fine.”
        “I’m fine.” -_-

    3. “But when are Dorothy and Joyce gonna do it?!”
      “‘Do it’? Danny, I’m not a republic serial villain, do you seriously think I’d be alone masterstroking if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? She did Dorothy thirty-five minutes ago”

      1. Also, twenty-five minutes ago. And fifteen. As for five minutes ago? Well, Danny, I think you know the answer to that.

      2. Thank you for this post, I laughed.

  9. I don’t get how it’s biphobia from the perspective of Danny

    1. It’s biphobia from Danny in the same way the Dorothy/Joyce kiss at the protest was problematic: Metatextually.

      But also Danny and Dorothy had a conversation (maaaan I hope the multi-character tagging is fixed soon, so I can find it) where Dorothy raised the possibility that being bisexual might lead to cheating and Danny got kind of mad at it. That’s why he wasn’t complaining about biphobia that Joyce cheated, it’s Dorothy specifically doing it right after their conversation that’s setting him off.

      1. But that’s Dorothy not being moral, not Dorothy being biphobic? Ah or is it that basically the biphobia is Dorothy assuming he’s a cheater because he’s bi, but I still don’t see how this has any relevance to what’s happening now

        1. It kind of doesn’t which I think is part of the joke of this strip. The relevancy only really being Danny warning of the biphobic cheating stereotype and Dorothy reinforcing that.

        2. Exactly what Sirksome said. Danny doesn’t immediately have a good explanation to externalize for his complex feelings on what has occurred, since neither Sal nor Joe are privy to his prior conversation with Dorothy, so he blurts out the closest thing he can think of for why he’s so mad at Dorothy right now, even if it doesn’t make much sense. Classic set-up for a non-sequitur punchline,

        3. That’s why it’s “metatextual”. Having a bisexual character treat is a biphobic thing to “write” but not a biphobic thing to do. But doing it does reinforce negative stereotypes. It would be like if I called it racist for a black guy to mug me. (for context I am black).

        4. “This is reinforcing stereotypes about bisexual people!” Is a bit clunky as a punchline and Danny saying the first words that enter his head regardless of accuracy or intent is an established trait of his anyway.

      2. Seconded on the multi-tag search thingy.

      3. Fortunately, that was basically the last time Danny showed up, so it was still at the top of his tags:
        https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/comfortingbodycontact/

      4. No, I think Danny is /bisexual/,
        not /metatexual/…

        /jk. ;-)

    2. It’s a callback to earlier in the comic before the timeskip, I think there was at least one or two occasions where Danny was coming to grips with being bi. The joke was that any time he experienced an inconvenience it was ‘biphobia’ because he was being inconvenienced and he’s bi. Example: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/bangst/

    3. I think it’s possible that he’s reacting to Joe saying he encouraged Dorothy to cheat and complaining that Joe was being biphobic by doing that.

  10. Imagine waking up one day and reading the author stare right into your eyes and say, “you’re Danny. Danny is who you are.”

    1. Even if that were true, I can’t grasp how that’s a bad thing? About right now in the narrative, Danny is one of the only characters it isn’t embarrassing to be compared to?

      1. Well, that’s not universal to all readers, is it? You might think that. Others might read Superglucose’s comment and think, Fuck yeah, fancy being called a ‘Danny’!

  11. Can’t believe you’d personally encourage those harmful stereotypes, Joe. This is why people hate bisexuals, it’s entirely your fault. Smh my head.

  12. “Wait! Is that…is that DANNY’S MUSIC PLAYING?!?”

    “BAWH GAWD IT’S DANNY COMING TO THE RING WITH A MUCH NEEDED STEEL CHAIR OF DRAMA!”

  13. Danny shouts, “ THIS IS BIPHOBIA!” Kicks Joe into pit.

    1. “This Whole Thing Smacks Of Biphobia,” i holler as I fling the communal Nintendo Switch and turn the Day of Midterms into the Day of Shit.” – Dumbiverse dril, maybe

  14. Don’t trust biphobia.

  15. I wonder what Willis was thinking watching comments complaining about Joyce and Dorothy playing in to harmful stereotypes knowing full well this strip was in the pipeline

    1. Also the commenting experience is still not good on mobile, it’s still sending me to an error page every time I comment

      Edit: ok it didnt for this, this is also the first time I’ve seen the edit button

      1. The commenting experience isn’t great on desktop either. Very much a work in progress.

      2. I only read and comment on desktop, and it’s the same for me.

      3. i just want to return to the days when websites were designed to fill width when viewing on desktop, the comments being compressed to a vertical line of text when replying would probably be fixxed lickety split. would also be nice if 90% of websites didnt have 30-50% unused negative space

  16. So I am not really happy with Danny’s commentary being played as a joke here. I do feel uncomfortable about how many of the bisexual women, specifically, in this comic have been portrayed as “unfaithful” in one way or another. Of course there are going to be messy college relationships, and of course characters should not be immune to making such mistakes just because they’re bi. But like… Joyce and Dorothy came out by cheating, Ruth outright told Jennifer that she would ditch her boyfriend if Jennifer asked, and Jennifer while dating Ruth made at least one remark about, IIRC, not attending a party because there would be no boys to fuck her.
    +
    On the other hand, the most prominent bisexual male characters, to my memory, are Danny (who spoke out against the idea of bisexuals cheating by the nature of being bisexual) and Asher (who lean into Ethan’s first kiss for a moment, but who broke it off and immediately told his girlfriend about it). Please correct me if I’m missing something!
    +
    Please note, this is extremely personal to me. I am a bi woman. I am a bi woman who has been abused because of the stereotype that bi women, especially, are “faithless.” I was not allowed to see my female friends due to this perception.
    +
    And I KNOW that Willis genuinely is not trying to portray bisexuals in a harmful manner. I know they are bisexual themselves. But I don’t think that makes my discomfort with what’s happened thus far entirely invalid, either?
    +
    I am not a hater and I am not trying to start a bunch of discourse. Please don’t engage with me if you want to fight or snip. I just wanted to get this off my chest, because it’s something that bothers me and I know it was not at all the author’s intention.

    1. Joyce and Dorothy, 100% they got together after cheating on their boyfriends I agree with you there. However, I feel your other examples with Billie and Ruth aren’t actually examples of being unfaithful bisexuals. Ruth saying she would dump her boyfriend for Billie is… just that. Her saying she would break up to get back with her ex. I don’t view that as her being unfaithful, she and Jason are in a very casual relationship not something majorly committed. As for Billie, maybe this is me giving her the benefit of the doubt here but I remember her walking back that statement after Ruth points out herself and from my interpretation, it’s less “Billie wants to cheat on Ruth” and more “Billie is used to casual makeouts with guys and forgot she was dating Ruth for a moment”. After all, her date with Ruth WAS her first ever actual date. I understand your concerns, especially as far as Joyce and Dorothy go, I just wanted to clear the air a bit because I don’t think Ruth, Jennifer, or Sierra (another bi/pan female character) lean into the cheating bisexual relationship stigma. I’m a bi-ace afab myself so I get it.

      1. Doopyboop, thank you for this reply. I’ve suspected that my discomfort has been colored by my experiences into perhaps being overblown, and I knew it was entirely possible I was perceiving Jennifer and Ruth with a bit too much sensitivity. So I really do appreciate you presenting another point of view and clearing the air there, and especially for just saying you understand where I’m coming from. Thank you, sincerely.

        1. Of course! One bi person to another, I 100% get the concern. Too many instances of people insisting I need to ‘pick a side’ and such. I can’t say I completely approve of how Joyce and Dorothy got together and it is only because there’s other bi characters that haven’t cheated that keeps me from writing the whole comic off. It’s also just a frightfully common thing in media too so I getcha.

        2. Just wanna add that in the country I’m in, the ONLY place I have EVER heard this is from the comments in this comic. I am often puzzled by what may be just USA things! Also bi.

        3. I’m in the American South so as you can imagine, I’ve heard a lot of not very nice things. The most common sentiments are that bi people are confused, can’t be monogamous, prone to cheating… and it gets messy. When a bi person is with an opposite gender partner (such as Danny with Sal) it is often that the bi person is accused of ‘not being a real bi’, with some hostility if they attend pride with that opposite gender partner.

        4. Lord, yes. I had to have the most uncomfortable 101-level sit-down conversation in the world with my mom when she became aware that my nesting partner is bi/pan. “Doesn’t that mean they’ll cheat/be promiscuous?” No. “Will they be happy with just you?” Yes.

          Granted, mom grudgingly accepted all of this before we were married, and we had our 20th anniversary last year, so guess I was right after all.

        5. ouch that hurts to hear! i hope all of you get to places where you are accepted and loved as you are, for who you are, and with who you love! i cannot understand why anyone would be upset by another persons happiness.

    2. I would note that the subject matter here is awkward college relationships. If anything this cast is shockingly faithful, even Dorothy + Joyce is about as clean as you can get while still being cheating.

      1. That’s fair. I understand.

  17. go, danny! for great justice!

    1. Move every Joe!

      1. You know what you doing.
         
        Move Joe.

  18. Thank you Danny.

    Finally. Someone reasonable

  19. Ah… so that’s how we’re doing this.

    Well, Dorothy *did* ask Danny for his opinion about whether discovering you were bisexual meant cheating was inevitable. More or less. So I do imagine he’s got some thoughts about that since he did already tell her that this would make her a bad person…

    Hm… this is gonna be more towards Dorothy though which means Joyce will continue to coast for a while longer. So that dulls the shine a little bit.

  20. Here’s the thing. Joe didn’t give Dorothy permission to go smooch Joyce. I even went back and reread that moment. He just told her to stop being weird about denying it, and that he empathized with her.

    And even if he did? Dorothy isn’t the person he should have been talking to about giving someone permission to cheat on their partner. Joyce wouldn’t have known Joe was weirdly okay with it, and Dorothy sure as hell didn’t tell her.

    And Danny is perfectly valid in being mad at Dorothy, given when she talked to him about being bisexual she just automatically assumed cheating on their partners was something bisexual people did. Then, when Danny told her that no, that’s something only a scumbag would do, she went ahead and did it anyway.

    1. My read on it is Joe is a bit in denial about the whole situation, as we’ve seen with him being hopeful that Joyce is coming back/they’re “not broken up”. He’s shown to think the worst about himself already, so maybe he’s doing this as a way of blaming himself instead of Joyce for how the situation went down? It could also tie in to his fear of becoming like his father but winding up more like his mother

  21. Crying and screaming and puking up seawater and shitting myself in the Denny’s and turning all my DVDs upside-down because Danny Wilcox has a speech bubble over him that contains the word “biphobia” and that means Mx.David Willis, Ph. D personally entered my home and snapped my aunt Melissa in half.

    1. rip to your aunt melissa, she always had the right opinions about which things were moral, and which things weren’t. now that she’s gone, i will never again know if anything a character does is morally wrong, ever again

    2. If Willis snapped MY Aunt Melissa in half, I would cheer because she is a hyuge bongo.

    3. Superglue?

      1. Don’t waste the superglue on Taffy’s Aunt Melissa when we need it to repair Mike.

    4. erm, think you could get me a Grand Slam on your way out? :9

      1. I would, but they have flamethrowers.

  22. Danny not knowing the new HOT couple of campus, one that was outed on the front page of a newspaper, is so Danny. rofl

    1. Dorothy stole the newspapers in their hall, so it’s reasonable that he wouldn’t know.
      He’s also not really in the friend group – he’s more Sal’s plus 1, as he only hangs with her and Joe, and sees Amber in class – and Sal hasn’t expressed much interest in the situation, so I don’t think they’re talking about it much.

    2. Why would Danny, or any of these college students with smart phones, ever read a physical paper? On the other hand, I fully believe that Danny didn’t find out about the kiss from social media, but seemingly no one else did.

  23. Breach of trust: eg “betrayal of the exclusivity and faithfulness expected in a committed partnership” Whoa. Expected? Was exclusivity and faithfulness expected? By Joe?
    Whoa. Committed? Had Dorothy made a commitment to Walky? Joyce possibly had, at least more so, at least implicitly, at least in her own mind.
    “entails sexual intimacy” Well, define sexual intimacy. I have been married by law twice for a total of 34 years. I have kissed people who were not my partner. Kissing is sexual intimacy?

    1. Don’t confuse us with logic.

    2. Like all of these are my thoughts (except my two marriages only lasted 15 years collectively, one is still ongoing anyway…), and the time I kissed people not my partner was with my partner’s full knowledge and consent.

      Kissing is such a simple thing, I don’t really consider it sexual intimacy. But it does entail like, other feelings? I do not like to kiss people when casual with them, so I guess to me kissing represents romantic intimacy, so in that sense I may guess why people get upset about their kissing. But I don’t see kissing as cheating any more than having those feelings in the first place is. I think that’s a bizarre level of supposed ownership over a person that doesn’t make sense on just about any level except theological.

    3. Yes, of course? Both Joe and Joyce immediately went ‘you/I cheated on me/Joe’. Even if we didn’t see them talk about it on screen, it should have been obvious from Joyce’s attitude to everything and Joe’s background with his dad being a serial cheater that they’d default to monogamy.

    4. I’m so fuckin sick of this argument dawg. The comic called it cheating. It is in universe considered cheating. The author considers it cheating out of universe. No one gives a fuck if it meets your personal definition of cheating because that shit is completely irrelevant to the story being told

      1. I’m sick of it too, but until literally anybody at all in universe is upset specifically because it was cheating, people are going to keep making that argument because to be quite honest, this is the most inoffensive, nonthreatening, toothless cheating ever. Sarah was *barely* mad about it at best and she’s the only one who’s expressed any discontent, it’s not threatening any relationships, it’s completely irrelevant to the character tension that *is* present currently, and even Dorothy’s assessment of “we might lose friends” so far has been completely inaccurate, considering how quickly she was able to mend the bridge between her and Becky (yet another conflict disconnected from the cheating entirely).
        ~~
        I hate it, I really do, but until any of that changes, the people who make that argument will be more empowered and have more evidence to do so, because “they said there was cheating” alone is not enough to prove otherwise – it is, in fact, the only proof we have that cheating occurred, considering how completely perfunctory it is to the current story ongoings.

        1. I don’t think Willis really wanted to commit to a cheating storyline tbh (forgive me for getting parasocial for a sec). Their wife pointed out they’d never done one, it seems like it just wasn’t a natural inkling. Could be checking off a box bc thes are college fuck ups, could be experimenting with something new and a little out of the comfort zone. And granted according to some Patreon commentary it was good enough to make Maggie (feels weird referring to her so casually but just calling her their wife feels misogynistic…) feel some type of way when Joyce gave Joe head. Tho that was quickly overrided by spite towards the weird misogynistic puritans that were somehow in the audience.
          I’m digressing, point is this doesn’t feel like a plot that wanted to commit whole heatedly to being about cheating and what can happen. So they made out a few times but broke up with their boyfriends (sorta) before having sex which most people consider way worse cheating. And Joe is totally okay with it on the surface (boys clearly covering up some pain inside and it does feel in character for how much he idolizes Joyce), and walky’s Walky so he’s gonna joke and sarcasm through the pain until it fades into the background and he gets a next girlfriend. This is a cheating storyline for the sake of saying there was a cheating storyline, but it doesn’t really want to be about cheating. That’s why everyone who’s mad is mad for literally every other possible reason

        2. @zee,

          honestly? 💯

          it was a good idea on paper, but executed in a way such that it caused more problems than it solved 😔

    5. I think trying to relitigate whether this is cheating and parsing things this fine is a weird decision to make.

    6. I’m just going to say this — coming from a perspective of someone who came from a not-quite-Joyce level religious background-to-state university-to-atheist path growing up in the US, and now having an older teenager navigating the current state of play regarding dating and romance among the youths in the US…

      … frankly, your perspectives on this sound as strange and off-kilter to me as you seem to feel about the perspectives coming from the portion of the commentariat that thinks things like “it’s obviously cheating”. There’s a point where I feel like we could stop trying to re-litigate the “is this REALLY cheating tho” question every time and just accept that there are a LOT of different perspectives out there, but it is the perspectives of the characters in the story that matters to the way the characters in the story are acting.

      1. The problem with that is that the characters and the comic in general seem to be torn on it too. Everyone in comic treats it as cheating and cheating is bad, but at the same time, it’s just not a big deal. Just another breakup.
        Except here where it still doesn’t seem to be a big deal personally, just in the making bisexuals look bad way.

    7. Thanks for engaging with this, people! I’m not in the business of making assumptions about USA people in general or the USA people on here in particular, but I do end up with thoughts that I want to explore. Engaging in good faith is great and helps me learn and broaden my outlook. However, I am less keen on people being dismissive. For the record, when i put things in quotes, I am quoting, not expressing my own opinion. When I put question marks, I’m asking, not expressing my own opinion.
      Big Z: re-litigating – if you count the number of people expressing the ‘this *is* cheating’ view vs the ones who think it is not or is mild, I think you might see that actually the relitigating goes the other way (almost as if this is like a vote and once you have a president, everyone has to agree with him!).
      Zee: I feel that you are verging on being rude. First you characterise me as being French for asking about a looser view, which seems to me a bit of “nationalityism” ?I must be French cos French people are sexually incontinent??? And now nobody gives a shit? You mean that you don’t? Well, fair enough but it seems impolite to say it. And are all those who take a milder view supposed to shut up and not comment?

      1. I reiterate: As far as I’m concerned, the people who meaningfully get to define whether something was cheating or not are the people in the relationship where it happened. Dorothy and Joyce have both called it cheating, and as such I don’t really feel like there’s anything to discuss. Even Joe here doesn’t say “it wasn’t cheating”, he says “I told Dorothy to do it [to Walky, to be clear]”.

        1. So we believe what Joe/Joyce/ whoever says when we want to, but at other times it’s OK to disbelieve what Joe (etc.) says because we have decided that he is fooling himself, coping or whatever? I think you (Big Z) have very definite ideas about what you think is going on in Joe’s head, which is fine and good and OK to discuss, but you are not necessarily correct, being neither Joe nor Willis. I don’t have opinions about what is going on in Joe’s head, but I’m happy to discuss logic. I don’t think that you thinking you are right supercedes my right to comment, or to have a different view, or to have no view!

        2. Oh, you have the right to comment whatever you want. But continuing to argue that it’s not cheating is silly, and I will continue to point that out.

      2. I joked that you’re French bc French people cheat so much theyade paternity tests illegal and inserted a whole oc into arthurian legend just to fuck king Arthur’s wife. So it’s a kinda apathetic attitude to cheating. I wasn’t calling you…. sexually incontinent? I don’t think you’re saying what you think you’re saying, sexual incontinence is accidentally peeing during or after sex

        Idrgaf if I’m being rude tbh but I do understand that comparing someone to the French is one of the most insulting things you can do, so I apologize for that.

  24. I’m glad Danny is upset about the cheating, but it seems odd to me that he’s more bothered by the idea that Dorothy and Joyce are contributing to the harmful stereotype of bi people as cheaters than the fact that Joyce cheated on Joe. I know Danny had a conversation with Dorothy about bisexuality and cheating earlier, but Joe is Danny’s long-time friend from years before they went to college. He should care more about how this has hurt Joe.

    1. Perhaps Danny has known Joe well enough and long enough to believe that he actually means what he is saying. And so he is concentrating on what he finds important.

    2. Poor Danny. You are glad he is upset! Even Joyce and Dorothy aren’t “glad” that people are upset.

  25. Look I don’t care if they’re cheap, please use some cover to prevent dust and damage when transporting your instrument.

    1. But then someone might not immediately recognize that he’s a ukulele guy

    2. Its possible stuff like that doesnt IMMEDIATELY occur to Danny given how he screwed up his budding relationship with Ethan.

    3. Sounds like that could be a good ad for condoms.

  26. I mean aside from the “This is Biphobia” gag line, I agree with Danny and if that makes me wrong, then baby, I don’t want to be right.

  27. No Danny, this is bi representation. More disaster bis making terrible impulsive relationship decisions, please and thank you.

  28. “Being fine with it” and “It being something I set up” are very different things. I can buy the 1st somewhat but the second explicitly isn’t true. He told Dorothy to be honest about her attraction, sure but he didn’t say “I am fine with you fucking my girlfriend.” or talk to Joyce about Poly until after she did what she fully believed was a huge breach of trust. It’s all about intent. If someone intends to betray me but does it in a way that doesn’t bother me, I still have to keep in mind that they were fully willing to breach that trust. At the very least it shows a lack of respect.

  29. Knowing that Joyce’s last decision was to demand Dorothy come to bed, in the middle of the day, where do we think Danny is storming off to in a rage right now?

    1. Why, to have that threeway with Dorothy and Joyce instead of Joe, of course!!

  30. 🤓🫴🦋Dorothy and Joyce cheating on their partners

    Is this biphobia?

  31. Talk yo shit king 😤
    Fuckin knew this is what the preview panel was gonna be lol

  32. Danny. My dude. My guy.

    I honestly think my long-term feelings on this storyline are going to be entirely driven by where things end up landing on the scale from “Joe is putting up a brave front, eventually comes to terms with the feelings of rejection and victimization he gets from how Joyce treated him, was his friend through a huge period of growth for both of them, and then instantly dropped him” or “Joe is okay, actually, no bad anything, big thumbs up”.

    Yes, yes, I’m letting Mx. Willis cook, but the smells from the kitchen currently smell more like the latter of my two options, and I can’t tell if that’s just the way the pacing is falling or what’s actually happening.

    1. This is close to the way I see it. Admittedly the way Willis built up Joe+Joyce has left me thinking (wishing?) that, one day, Joyce realizes that she still graves to be smooshed by him, something Dotty cannot give her.
      Not holding my breath and enjoying the story anyway.

    2. Yeah that’s basically where my head has been at the last few weeks. Is Joe coping or is he serious? I very, very much hope it’s just cope.

      1. Chat is this cope or is this /gen? Bc if ts is /gen imma lowkirkenuinely have a whole crashout

    3. someone the other day stated quite well something that i think need repeating here.

      willis had not actually intended for joyrothy to happpen this quickly or way but when drawing the strips he realized this moment was much bigger and more meaningful than initially planned along with the desire to do better by the muslim characters, led to a bunch of rewrites and extra strips, which is why some are finding the pacing wierd and the story to be less of what they are used to

      1. We’ve had a tiny number of strips featuring Muslim characters in relation to strips featuring Joyce+Dorothy “being cute”/doing nothing/avoiding conversations.

        The pacing problems are not because Willis decided to add in some Muslim representation

      2. Personally, I think this is barking up the wrong tree, in that I think Odo is correct and to the extent that there are pacing issues those issues are mostly driven by the fact that Mx. Willis enjoys drawing Doyce and finds them to be cute, and so there are a lot of strips that are arguably “just” Doyce being cute compared to other couples in their get-together phase.

    4. How about if Joe is just coping, but the cope leads to an actual attempt at a poly relationship? Which is kind of my take, though I’ve been very bad at predicting where this arc is going. How well the poly thing works is yet another question.

      1. Certainly plausible — I’m deliberately not trying to predict what is going to happen, merely observe what I observe.

    5. Yea if this turns into a “cheating is fine actually they just kissed no one cares” and ends up turning into a poly relationship I will just drop the comic. Im going to let it all play out first though and see what happens, I dont think thats what they would write but well see.

  33. i very much want that joe/joyce conversation scene !! my poor boy needs closure

  34. *sicko voice* danny you and ethan should cheat on sal and asher respectively and hook up crazy style

    1. that would be hilarious, i don’t care that danny torpedoed any chance of being friends with ethan. this would be delicious!

  35. I think everything else I’m thinking with this strip had already been said.
    .
    But I wonder if Danny is remembering the missed opportunity with Ethan way back when he had his own bi-awakening and having complicated feelings about that on top of his anger at Dorothy.
    (don’t come at me, I’m bi too)

  36. also…i think it was the reverse. they cheated and then realized they were bi

    1. Maybe for Joyce. Still not really sure when she admitted it to herself.
      But Dorothy was definitely aware of it after Joe talked to her about sending Joyce lewds. Unless you’re counting that as cheating.

  37. A phobia is an unreasoning fear, not just something you don’t like.

    1. phobia is also now used as a root for a lot of forms of bigotry. “Homophobia” “Islamophobia” “Transphobia”. Conceptually this seems rooted in the idea that these forms of bigotry stem from “fear of the unknown” or “fear of people who are different”. That subconciously there is some sort of fear at work that motivates the bigotry.

      I think that’s probably false, but the terms exist and are widely used. It doesn’t matter whether their latin roots no longer make sense. “Nice” comes from latin meaning “ignorant” which is interesting etymologically, but means nothing when it comes to defining the word in modern english.

      Words mean what people accept them to mean/what they communicate. Biphobia communicates discrimination or predjudice towards Bisexuality/Bisexual people. It doesn’t mean a phobia in the traditional sense.

      1. When Homophobia was coined in the late 60s it referred to heterosexual men’s fear of being thought to be homosexual. So it kind of made sense and I think that’s still a large part of it. Usage has definitely broadened to more general prejudice, based in fear or not. As well as leading to other terms like Islamophobia as parallels.
        And it’s never been about being an actual phobia in the clinical sense.

    2. Being wary of bi people because you don’t understand that being attracted to men and women doesn’t mean you’re a sexual monsoon is, in fact, an unreasoning fear.

      1. Well, that does it — I’m describing myself as a “sexual monsoon” from now on.

        1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          “Sexual Monsoon” sounds like a way Faz might describe himself…

          Like that line about chewing tobacco in “Predator.”

  38. Danny, a few notes;
    1. You can only get so indignant about violations of bisexual contract law before your very straight girlfriend starts hearing you say, “Watch out, bongo. I’ve got OPTIONS!”

    2. Really? Dorothy going bi is your stomp off button? If you’re about pull a Becky, as in sublimated obsession, on Sal the only question will be the number of buckets that are needed to scrape up your remains.

    1. 1. I don’t know how Sal would get that impression since the indignation Danny feels is towards the act of Dorothy fulfilling the “bisexual cheating” trope. If anything his indignation reaffirms that he thinks highly of being a loyal partner.
      2. He is mad because Dorothy asked him about cheating and then went and did it. He already knew she was bisexual BECAUSE they discussed this exact thing.

      1. Good points, and I always like to give a person the benefit of doubt.

        1. What is a “bisexual cheating” trope? What makes it different from any other cheating?

        2. It’s more of a stereotype than a trope, but the idea is that bisexuals are disproportionately assumed to be cheating scumbags who’ll fuck anything with a pulse.

        3. It is something in fiction and other popular portrayals of bisexual people that, since they are attracted to a broader spectrum of people, they are prone to infidelity. It’s less a trope and more of a harmful stereotype, particularly if you’re a straight person dating a bi person and always on the lookout for cheating because you’re insecure.

        4. In other words, Danny is correct. It is biphobia.

        5. Its based in both media’s representation and people’s biases towards bisexual people. Namely there’s a rhetoric that bisexual people are less likely to be faithful due to being bisexual. Usually implicitly or overtly depicted by bisexual characters cheating or being very promiscuous in media. Hence “bisexual cheating”.

  39. You know what’s a harmful stereotype? The idea that Relationship = Exclusivity. Or that Commitment = Exclusivity.

    Maybe, just maybe, Joyce, Joe, and Dorothy are all totally fine with Joyce casually dating Joe while in a relationship with Dorothy. And then it would not be “cheating.” (I’m not saying that’s what the characters are necessarily GOING to do, but they CAN go about it ethically if everyone involved is on board. Danny doesn’t get a say about that.)

    1. I would posit that of the core cast, only Joe has any experience with non-exclusive dating.

      1. I don’t think Joe does.
        He has experience with non-exclusive casual hookups, but he has no experience with dating, exclusive or otherwise.

    2. Why on Earth are we relitigating this when many of the people you mentioned by name have in fact used the word cheating to describe what happened.

      And as a person who has been non-monogamous for two decades, if you go into a relationship in the United States in this century with any assumption other than “most people think all dating relationships are monogamous by default” you are going to have a bad time. Frankly, I’d argue it’s more harmful to not acknowledge that.

      1. I can only speak for me, but I imagine that it’s because the word “cheating” covers a lot of territory. It accurately describes both this situation, a pair of teenagers made an impulsive decision during a moment of extreme emotional tension and came clean to their partners the next day; and also Joe’s Dad, someone willfully and deliberately carrying on an affair behind their partner’s back with complete indifference to their feelings. To me, those things are substantially different. But it often feels like many people in the comment section would treat them like they are not.

        1. Very good point, and purely based on implication, “cheating” definitely seems more a better description of the latter than the former.

        2. Can’t argue there. There are certainly degrees of cheating, and degrees of appropriate or possible responses. I’ve more or less always been in the camp of “back in my college days, we wouldn’t have trusted these two with much until they rebuilt that trust — by definition, cheating of any kind is an ethical breach that indicates that you are willing to put your pleasure above your commitments”. It matters if it’s premeditated or in the heat of the moment, it matters if that commitment is “we’ve used the words boyfriend/girlfriend but not explicitly discussed monogamy” or “we’ve been married with kids for decades”, but those are IMHO fundamentally differences of degree, not of kind.

          The nasty sticking point for me is Joyce’s first interaction with Joe after the kiss, which pushes at least Joyce’s behavior over the line from “impulse, immediately corrected” to “kept the deception going longer than necessary, including sexual contact”.

    3. That’s a conversation that needs to happen BEFORE you go off and do whatever you want. The idea that poly people are good to go and do whatever with whoever without discussing it with their partner beforehand is ALSO a harmful stereotype! Way more harmful than the shit you’re talking about in fact!

    4. That’s not a “stereotype,” it’s a “social expectation.” They mean different things!

    5. I wouldn’t describe that as a stereotype so much as a norm. Not a particularly bad one either — an assumption of non-exclusivity would probably lead to no less strife than an assumption of exclusivity, and treating every new relationship like it’s a contract negotiation would be the worst outcome of all.
      Of course, in this case Joe doesn’t really consider himself cheated on. But does Walky? He just saw it coming.

      1. also, I don’t mean to say that it’s good to adhere to norms or that norms are neutral (I think that’s rare) or that they should be ‘enforced’ somehow. Just, people are going to assume you’re going to follow norms, so in some circumstances it’s good to inform people when you’re not.

    6. Hey as a poly person Im going to have to tell you that you in fact need to discuss with your partner what they are and not ok with still. Poly comes in all shapes and sizes. Theres also open relationships but you STILL need to communicate that its an open relationship and what your partner is comfortable with. Suddenly springing on your partner that its going to be a poly relationship or coercing them into one when its been mono the whole time is a harmful sterotype and used primarily by people who want to cheat without consequences, not poly people
      Monogamy is the norm. Dont go into relationships assuming your partner is going to be ok with non monogamy, talk to your partners about your relationship at the start people.

  40. I know this is a little late, but does anyone know how get a profile picture next to your comment or to some people only have those because they did it before the site change over? Also why doesn’t it want to save info despite checking the box? I assume some of this is down to still-in-development website.

    1. It’s still keyed to Gravatar. If you register a Gravatar account to the same e-mail you use here, it’ll show up.

    2. Here is how I did it. Go to:

      https://gravatar.com/

      and create a free account associated with the email you use here.

      Upload your the avatar photo you want to use. Save and such, That should be it. I did it years ago and it has worked ever since. It did not change with the New Order DoA website.

      You may have to fiddle with the picture size and aspect ratio get what you want.

      In the Good Old Days DYW had a thing that gave you a random DoA avatar based on your email, but that was lost in the change to The New Order. Just a sign of the degenerate age we live in.

      Note that when you change your avatar picture, it changes for all the comments you ever made from that email, all the way back. Which is one of the reasons comments talking about avatars in the past may not make sense.

  41. Willis, I saw your post about being in the emergency room. 🥺

    Between this and being orphaned recently and the way the world is rn, life aint been easy on you.
    I say this with love, if you really need to, maybe just take a break from writing the comic for a while?
    The buffer is there for a reason, and if stress really is impacting the quality of your work, you owe it to yourself to take some weeks off to recharge, and come back to it with a fresh set of eyes and hopefully lower cortisol levels. 🙏🏽

    1. I’m recalling from past stressful events in their life, Willis feels weird if they’re not keeping up with their buffer.

      People cope all sorts of ways, and quite a few of us are wired differently.

    2. I hope everything works out DW. Take some time off and do some self care. Play with some Legos…or some transformers. Just get some rest.

  42. y’all it’s clear he’s diegetically trying to keep it light and be funny to avoid his complicated feelings about this involving HIS OWN EX

  43. Just for the hell of it, I took another shot at Google’s GEMINI A.I. toy and asked for a rendering of Dorothy as a photorealistic human. It cracks me up to see how far off the mark that algorithm is. Well today it missed by a mile again, and instead of an image it gave me this description:

    “It looks like my image generation tool is having a bit of a moment. If Dorothy stepped out of David Willis’s art style and into the real world, Dorothy would be a striking presence—tall (around 5’10” or 6’0″) with the powerful, broad-shouldered build of a competitive swimmer.”

    Really? Six feet? At that height, she could go toe-to-toe with Carla. Someday this thing will get it right, but until then, GEMINI’s mistakes are uproarious and are only getting goofier.

    1. It’s generally frowned upon to put other people’s art into the plagiarism slop machine.

  44. Boy Joe sure did. Everything short of turning to camera and going ‘I WANT THIS TO HAPPEN, EVEN IF ITS GOING TO END UP HURTING ME’, in fact.

    Danny remains a goober. (fond)

  45. I appreciate that someone is at least calling it cheating. I may have missed it, but it’s sure felt like everyone has skipped over how Dorothy/Joyce didn’t actually break up their boyfriends *first*.

    Which, now that I think about it, with how things went down with Joyce and Jacob, it’s getting increasingly hard for Joyce to beat the homewrecker hussy allegations.

  46. I still don’t understand. There are a number of people on this chat that know what the characters think better than the characters do themselves. Some know more about what Willis thinks, means, intends than apparently Willis does. Heck, there are people here who know more about me than I do. And, what’s more, some of these people (so we are getting into a small proportion here) appear to know for a fact that they are right.
    What I want to know is, how come I don’t know all this stuff? And how come I have so much uncertainty? I’m not alone, I guess cos other people suggest things as possibilities, and even play ‘called it’. Is there a Patreon tier where you know what Willis is thinking? Is there a Patreon tier where you know better than Willis what Willis is thinking?
    ?j (albeit slightly passive aggressive one, may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb)

  47. Aw man – 8 years ago, I’d have gathered my torches and pitchforks and raged along with Danny.
    Now?
    My bitterness is such that I just roll my eyes and go “ugh – here we go again”.

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