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Eh, not always. One usually ends up there because one’s not meant to go any farther, so of course one’s stuck. But there are exceptions, which is why I was once pulled out of it by the other person.
What’s cringey about wanting to be friends before jumping into sex? Or not wanting to take advantage of post-breakup vulnerability?
Admittedly it’s probably mostly cover for being too shy and insecure to make the actual move, but even that isn’t the cringey part about the typical Nice Guy approach.
The cringy part is not wanting to be friends first. The cringe part is treating people as objects. What makes it complicated is that people are objects. It’s just not all that they are.
The ‘friend thing’ can backfire horribly. If someone spends enough time convincing themselves you’re ‘off the table’ because of your legitimate friendship, there’s the strong possibility that when you finally try to make ‘the moves’ they’ll be either disinterested or feel betrayed by the fact that you waited so long to make your intentions clear.
That said, I think Walky in particular lacks the bliviousness for it to apply. His thought process will go go ‘girl likes me-throw toy-do the sex’ without much room for anything more complex to cross his mind. His social interactions have a charming simplicity to them.
Was going to make this joke. ctrl+F’ed first. Not only am I not the first to make the joke, I am not even the first to comment that I am not the first to make the joke. I am shamed.
Lucy’s a good egg. (Obviously, supposing she’s not just being his friend because she thinks he’s cute, but she does seem to genuinely enjoy his company. I don’t think being friends with someone you are attracted to is in and of itself sketchy)
I was thinking Walky would end up talking Billie through some shit, but this isn’t playing out quite like I expected. Interesting, though. I do like that Lucy is being firm with her.
I mean, personally the “for now” is still concerning. Maybe it’s just my personal issues with people pretending to want my friendship when really they just wanted smooches or whatever, but that’s… still not an okay mindset?? It’s still better than “preying on him while he’s vulnerable” but it’s still not great, IMO???
(Even if I recognize that Lucy seems to be an overall sweet person whose heart isn’t in a bad place.)
But then, I also recognize that my opinion is coming from a place of Personal Issues. You can definitely be friends with someone you have a crush on, without being a bad person. It’s just the “for now” that I really don’t like.
I believe the ‘for now’ means she has no intentions of pursuing him while he is breaking up and sad, not that she’s not interested in actually being his friend. I don’t think she’s pretending, she just also wants to go out with him later on, when he’s not sad and vulnerable.
Yeah, Lucy generally knows what’s right, but she’s definitely letting her judgment be clouded by what she wants. “I’m not allowed to technically pursue him, but I’m obviously pursuing him.”
Yeah, but the part that makes the “nice guy” creepy is all the stuff that comes after that first bit.
It’s definitely a thing, but sometimes it seems that the counterreaction to it is almost as bad: If there’s any attraction at all and it’s not immediately openly acted on, regardless of circumstances, you’re an evil “Nice Guy”.
Yes that’s exactly what’s wrong with that xkcd: It establishes a pattern of the evil nice guy. In the comic we see the inner monologue of that evil nice guy, but in reals cases of “nice guys” we can’t mindread that inner monologue, so we just assume malice while the real reason might be completely different.
Like shyness or in Lucy’s case: Not wanting to act on him while he’s vulnerable and might potentially get hurt.
Oh, Lucy has good reasons for not moving on him, but the feeling of “I am grooming a friend for future romance” is still there. You don’t make friends “for now”. I think she’s making a somewhat poor decision, or at least a dicey one.
personally I’d say it’s not a bad idea to befriend someone you might want to smooch because of two things: in the course of the friendship you might find out something that makes them an incompatible romance partner but an ok friend (such as non matching sexuality preferences); and there’s the possibility you’ll get rejected romantically but you can still remain in a close platonic friendship with that person. Though the latter can also end catastrophically
I’ve had both happen to me, a friendship that might have led to romance stayed a strong platonic friendship to this day, but also a friendship that started out because I was interested in someone exploded in my face with this person accusing me of being smothering.
Oh, don’t get me wrong… I’m married to someone that I was friends with for 7 years before we started dating. Friendship –> romance is 100% valid! I can’t even claim that my spouse didn’t have smooshy feelings for me off and on for most of that time period. It’s just a combination of other bad experiences with people who weren’t nearly as decent, and maybe my own incapability to have feelings for anyone I haven’t known for like at least a year. ^_^’
really the comic was just describing building a normal relationship but putting a bad spin on it. Theirs definitely a bad mindset that can lead to a relationship like that being toxic, but the same can be said about any relationship. Really the terribleness comes from ragging on their current partner in hopes that they leave them for you. Otherwise being there for someone and developing a relationship where both parties feel like they can depend on the other isn’t a bad thing.
I do just want to clarify that the kind clarify that the kind of relationship in the comic is very bad and manipulative and that there are people like that in the real world. It just seems like its trying to paint all people who want to start slow with a friendship before moving into a relationship are playing these kinds of manipulative mind games.
Yeah, I took it that way, too. The last time people assumed she was up to something sneaky, it turned out to just be her trying to get info on Billie to maybe get her to go to her party, and not dirt on her like people thought it was.
Not saying she’s up for sainthood or anything, but she’s seemed pretty straightforward so far.
I confess, have we ever seen a “Nice Girl” in fiction where they pretend to be a friend only to try to subvert the relationship to romance? We’ve got lots of dudes in it but I don’t think I ever saw the gender reverse.
I can’t think of one off the top of my head, even though I feel like I’ve seen it at least once or twice. I knew one IRL (who was also… like… the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a real-life yandere, so yikes on that one), but I’ve definitely seen a couple dozen Nice Guys compared to that one Nice Girl so *shrug*
I actually considered that as an avid watcher of the show, but really, she isn’t trying to form a friendship with Adrien in an attempt to date him… she’s just flat-out trying her best to be upfront with her crush on him and is terrible at expressing it. Along the way, they do end up becoming friends, but that wasn’t actually Marinette’s plan.
One thing I really liked about the most recent episode, “Stormy Weather 2,” is that she finally acknowledges that they’ve become good friends (even if she does think of it as “just friends” and wanting something “more”) and seems to decide that, putting her feelings aside, she truly does want to be a good friend to him because he needs and deserves that.
Sorry, you totally didn’t ask for a mini-essay but since I’d already considered the subject, I had to pop up again and ramble. ^-^
(Frankly, Chat Noir to Ladybug is closer to the Nice Guy trope than Marinette is to Adrien in their civilian lives. The writing can be a bit consistent, so I tell myself that his flirting and her playfully rebuffing him is just kinda their established and agreed-on dynamic by this point, since we HAVE seen them have a conversation where he says how much he genuinely values her friendship. Oops, I rambled again.)
It’s a common trope in anime/manga, but I don’t recall it in Western fiction. But then again I don’t read romance as a genre, tried a few and just couldn’t wrap my mind around it.
I don’t think she’s pretending to want friendship at all. If she didn’t like him enough to want to be friends, I doubt she’d be interested in a relationship with him
I mean, building a friendship with someone you’re interested in is probably one of the most healthy things to do if you’re potentially interested in a relationship. Be friends first.
Yeah, „gonna be his friend first“ got a facepalm here, too.
Becoming friends with someone because you hope for an eventual relationship upgrade tends to be a fast-track to resentment city. I mean, relationship‘s with crushes CAN work, but the hopee has to either let go of their hope-for-more or manage it well enough that it doesn‘t become painful for either of them.
But hey, it‘s dumbing of Age. And Lucy, like all the others, still has some growing up to do.
I think there is a really, really fine line here that ultimately comes down to something in Lucy’s heart that is impossible for anyone but her (and difficult even for herself) to truly know: If romance was off the table forever, would she still want the friendship, not as a consolation prize but as something she would value in its own right? If yes, then it’s probably fine, or at least can be fine though there are potential pitfalls to steer clear of. If no, she really needs to get right the hell out with all of that.
I think her point is more, that she would bring it up now, but he has just had a break up. She would rather be friends with him until he is in a better place/not in a place of vulnerability to say she is interested. And if he isn’t, they can just continue being friends.
So does anyone know what these ‘moves’ actually are? I ask because my friend basically had to trick my boyfriend and I into getting together three years ago.
My moves are trying to bond over like minded things, slowly flirting and apologizing and hoping I don’t overstep my boundaries. And then inevitably finding out that I’m not that girl’s type, she has a boyfriend, or they’re not looking for a relationship.
Needless to say I am very lonely.
Dunno, I usually let the friendship evolve and get closer and more intimate. If the other person is interested, a closer relationship is in their interest, too. And usually, an opportunity to speak about my feelings came up within two to six months. And that’s it.
Moves sounds way too complicated and difficult.
Last time I attempted to perform a “moves” it was having a couple of beers and discussing Babylon 5. A couple decades later we’re still married, so something worked…
That’s very understandable and very respectable….but Also a unnecessary waste of time considering doing the opposite seems to have worked on him before.
Then again considering how his recent today long relationship went he’s probably learn to take things a bit slower himself.
It ought to be eminently saveable, but neither Amber nor Walky seems likely to try. Walky can’t go back to Amber ready to talk about it until he talks to Sal first, and he won’t talk to Sal while he can not talk to Sal. Amber, meanwhile, has an entrenched habit of finding explanations for adverse events that are personal, persistent, and catastrophic, and therefore very poor resilience. She’s unlikely to come back for a second bite at the cherry.
Lucy, that’s a pretty, uh, not great thing to be doing. Treating friendship as just a stepping stone to a relationship is a pretty creeper thing to do.
I don’t know — sure, if you’re ONLY after whatever you think comes next, that isn’t great. (If you’re going to drop your new “friend” or be angry if they’re not interested in a relationship with you, that’s shit!)
But if you’re happy to be friends regardless of whether anything else happens (even though you hope for a romantic or sexual relationship), it’s a pretty normal way to get into a relationship, I think. As far as I am aware, many people do things as friends first before professing any romantic or sexual interest.
No, that is an organic method of establishing a romantic relationship over time. It never worked for me because of the “over time” part while I was growing up. Until I was a sophomore in HS the longest I remained in proximity to another unrelated human being was 9 months, with an average of 6 weeks.
More importantly, he was just hanging out with a new friend and now it’s time to head back to the dorm. Billie doesn’t seem in any immediate danger even though she’s drunk so he really doesn’t have any reason to stay!
Sure, but I also think he reads the room and realizes that Lucy has a thing for him and that something complicated is going on between Lucy and Billie. Not a bad time to bug out.
I’m kinda with Billie. Walky runs through girls pretty fast so it’s better to strike while the iron is hot. She’s gonna show up tomorrow and he’ll be in bed with Malaya.
I don’t know about Walky going through girls fast, him and Dorothy had a pretty lengthy relationship. If anything his relationship is the kind that Lucy is trying to avoid, that being one built out of emotional vulnerability and doomed to fall apart at the slightest adversity.
OTOH, there hasn’t been enough time to see that “Walky runs through girls pretty fast” either. (I think Walky and Dorothy is still the longest running relationship? Started well before any of the other still going contenders.)
That also implies that it’s due to his own actions rather than external things causing the breakup – Dorothy’s overwork and Amber’s history with Sal. Assuming the Amber thing is actually over, which is still on hold pending Walky talking to Sal.
I think Rachel (not other-Rachel) is in a relationship with someone from their hall as well, but I forget who. And sometimes Sierra(?) joined in. It’s been a while but I remember we got a Joyce-face out of it. I don’t think we know when that started but there’s a good chance it predates Walky/Dorothy and is still stable.
Oh yeah, that was it. I remembered there was some “rac” combination in the name and my mind jumped to Rachel instead of Grace. You’re absolutely right.
Anyway, Mandy/Grace (whether with or without Sierra) predates Walky/Dotty to my understanding.
Yeah, that’s a bizarre side effect of comic time passing so slowly — Dorothy’s and Walky’s relationship seemed really long, but can’t have been more than 4 weeks or so in comic time?
That’s not even considered lenghty by high school standards.
Courtesy of the Walkypedia contributors and maintainers:
The toy-throw was on Aug. 30, their first date/make-out was Sept. 5, and their final break-up was Oct. 12. So depending on what you count as a start, 5-1/2 to 6 weeks.
I’m like Lucy in that I don’t really know how to “perform a moves” either, though I usually end up developing feelings for someone after I’ve been friends with them for a while, rather than before befriending them.
I’m wondering if Billie will try to explain ‘moves’ to Lucy; Lucy will remark that she’s uncomfortable acting ‘slutty’ and this quite shocks Billie who had never before considered that there may be objections to that sort of behaviour.
That’s very much a ‘point of view’ question. The answer, in my point of view, very much depends on how open the sexual ‘come on’ is (and it is a unisex standard; I don’t approve of it in men either).
Billie almost slept with Danny for paying her a compliment so you could consider that Billie’s suggested ones probably would be. And as we have seen from these last couple of strips, she doesn’t consider that Lucy may not be as interested in sex as she is and may not see it as a priority.
Lucy does not perform a Moves. I think she’s lonely in Forest. And I think she maybe has feelings for Walky. Were they there before Billy suggested it? I also think she’s conflicted. She wants to do the right thing. But she wants something else. And she isn’t crafty enough to manipulate Walky into a relationship. There are some similarities with Joyce’s situation with her feelings for Jacob.
No, a Nice Guy would pounce while he’s vulnerable. Just befriending someone you like to get close to them is pretty normal. Plus, I doubt she’d throw a tantrum if she got rejected
So, did Lucy just admit to “White Knighting” Walky? She just said she wanted to be friends with Walky, so that she can get into his pants, later on. That sounds like a working definition of “White Knight”, to me.
“White Knighting” is specifically protecting or defending someone so they’ll be grateful and reward you with sex. There’s none of that here.
Even the more general become friends while thinking about something more isn’t inherently wrong. It depends on how it’s approached and how they react if it doesn’t turn into romance.
Except it’s not. She hasn’t swept to his rescue unasked with the intent of making him feel that he’s obliged to be grateful, which is what “White Knighting” means. You have it confused with “Nice Guy Syndrome”.
Also, since both are based in the unequal power dynamics of patriarchal society, I’m not sure women can do either of them. If it seems unfair that women can’t be accused of this stuff, I strongly recommend smashing the patriarchy.
Also, what she actually said was that she wants to be friends because he needs a friend, and for that reason, she’s putting the getting into his pants thing — which she has no idea how to achieve anyway — on hold.
I dunno. I don’t think Lucy’s approach is perfect, but it’s not awful or excessively selfish or anything like that either. Trying to be friends first is definitely undercut by her already deciding for sure she wants to try dating, but she’s pretty clearly taking his feelings into account and I think that says a lot of good things.
Also it might be for the best if Billie doesn’t realize what a great foil Lucy makes for her. Might get a little too meta.
I really like the understated truth of Billie’s drunken realization “You and I are very different people.” Works on almost every level.
However, Lucy wouldn’t get far in a serious relationship with Walky, unless he dealt with his racist mom. Not ruling it out, just saying that ship is fraught with family drama.
So being the Lucy fan that I am it seems to me that Lucy is being a kind and decent person and that the only negative that could be brought up is about the moves coming later even though that’s probably how most people think but dont normally verbalize.
She likes him (for the life of me I cant see why but that’s her call) so shes going to be supportive to help him and then when hes over it or in a better place she’s going to move on him (I can see her putting on a Hermione Granger school uniform, grabbing a wand and waving it at Walky saying Expecto Erecto or something)
There’s nothing wrong with that at all except that I can easily see Walky thinking of Lucy as a friend only
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 11d
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Lucy has learned Friend Zone!
Lucy is getting assertive.
What’s this? Lucy is evolving…
I am about as good at performing a moves as Lucy is, but…
Isn’t the Friend Zone a place from which one cannot escape? Like being inside the Schwartzschild radius of a black hole?
Eh, not always. One usually ends up there because one’s not meant to go any farther, so of course one’s stuck. But there are exceptions, which is why I was once pulled out of it by the other person.
In this analogy, you are the Hawking Radiation!
Physics jokes are not as good as math jokes. Close though.
Very clever. In this analogy, you are Hawking himself.
And it’s about as cringey as the typical guy version.
What’s cringey about wanting to be friends before jumping into sex? Or not wanting to take advantage of post-breakup vulnerability?
Admittedly it’s probably mostly cover for being too shy and insecure to make the actual move, but even that isn’t the cringey part about the typical Nice Guy approach.
The cringy part is not wanting to be friends first. The cringe part is treating people as objects. What makes it complicated is that people are objects. It’s just not all that they are.
My understanding is the cringy part is when you see friendship as a stepping stone towards a romantic relationship and not an end in itself.
The ‘friend thing’ can backfire horribly. If someone spends enough time convincing themselves you’re ‘off the table’ because of your legitimate friendship, there’s the strong possibility that when you finally try to make ‘the moves’ they’ll be either disinterested or feel betrayed by the fact that you waited so long to make your intentions clear.
That said, I think Walky in particular lacks the bliviousness for it to apply. His thought process will go go ‘girl likes me-throw toy-do the sex’ without much room for anything more complex to cross his mind. His social interactions have a charming simplicity to them.
I wouldn’t say that’s accurate. There’s no guarantee that they’re friends yet.
Also, “clit blocking”, unintentional as it was, from a drunken Billie.
Clam jamming is another good term.
No… Billie… just… stop…
Billie is a fixer!
and she is looking for a distraction
Exactly an alpha bongo project is exactly what she wants to keep her mind of things
I’ve run the numbers for you, Lucy.
* Wacky hijink/misunderstanding due to taking advice from dubious sources such as Billie and/or Joyce: 20% chance of success.
* Tell Walky you like him and ask him out: 50%
* Tell Walky you like him and ask him out for some McNuggets: 85%.
* Throw box of McNuggets at his head: 100%.
confusedmathlady.jpeg
The math checks out.
Yeah, I’d say that was frighteningly accurate.
Lucy Performs a Moves
Coming to a Slipshine near you.
Ahhhh, you beat me to it!
And for a first time, it’s: up up down down left right left right select fart oh no
Sounds a lot like the French Mistake.
Throw out your hands, stick out your tush
Hands on your hips, give ’em a push…
Lucy performs a “mo- F***!
NOBODY THINKS OF YOUR RETROACTIVELY STOLEN JOKE IS FUNNY, SPORKY!
(Tips imaginary hat)
I’m waiting eagerly for that one!
Ah the joke we all wanted to make
Lucy Busts a move.
Oh my god yes.
Was going to make this joke. ctrl+F’ed first. Not only am I not the first to make the joke, I am not even the first to comment that I am not the first to make the joke. I am shamed.
I was also going to say that but you beat me too it, oh darn I am sad.
I also came here to say someone beat me to being the first to say someone beat me to that comment… but someone beat me to it. :-/
Lo! I am beaten
Dangit, someone already said it.
Dumbing of Age Book 9: Mey Malky
You know what’s crazy? I didn’t even notice it was Mey Malky until you pointed it out.
I read these things aloud to myself because I’m insane and I didn’t notice it
I
DoA Book 9: The Moves Come Later, After I Figure Out How To Perform A “Moves”!
*plays the Robert Palmer version of “I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On” on the hacked Muzak*
This is the reason I can never listen to that song with a straight face.
Lucy’s a good egg. (Obviously, supposing she’s not just being his friend because she thinks he’s cute, but she does seem to genuinely enjoy his company. I don’t think being friends with someone you are attracted to is in and of itself sketchy)
I was thinking Walky would end up talking Billie through some shit, but this isn’t playing out quite like I expected. Interesting, though. I do like that Lucy is being firm with her.
ah yes, our good buddy Mavid Malkerton
Secret identity of the Muke of Mingley.
Mmmm.
I mean, personally the “for now” is still concerning. Maybe it’s just my personal issues with people pretending to want my friendship when really they just wanted smooches or whatever, but that’s… still not an okay mindset?? It’s still better than “preying on him while he’s vulnerable” but it’s still not great, IMO???
(Even if I recognize that Lucy seems to be an overall sweet person whose heart isn’t in a bad place.)
But then, I also recognize that my opinion is coming from a place of Personal Issues. You can definitely be friends with someone you have a crush on, without being a bad person. It’s just the “for now” that I really don’t like.
*”for a while,” not “for now,” but it means the same thing. Haha, my bad
I believe the ‘for now’ means she has no intentions of pursuing him while he is breaking up and sad, not that she’s not interested in actually being his friend. I don’t think she’s pretending, she just also wants to go out with him later on, when he’s not sad and vulnerable.
Yeah, Lucy generally knows what’s right, but she’s definitely letting her judgment be clouded by what she wants. “I’m not allowed to technically pursue him, but I’m obviously pursuing him.”
It’s not exactly the same thing, but, y’know, xkcd did a comic about this.
https://xkcd.com/513/
How the heck have I never seen this before? This is spot-on! (Not re: Lucy, but re: the specific brand of people I was thinking of.)
Yeah, but the part that makes the “nice guy” creepy is all the stuff that comes after that first bit.
It’s definitely a thing, but sometimes it seems that the counterreaction to it is almost as bad: If there’s any attraction at all and it’s not immediately openly acted on, regardless of circumstances, you’re an evil “Nice Guy”.
Yes that’s exactly what’s wrong with that xkcd: It establishes a pattern of the evil nice guy. In the comic we see the inner monologue of that evil nice guy, but in reals cases of “nice guys” we can’t mindread that inner monologue, so we just assume malice while the real reason might be completely different.
Like shyness or in Lucy’s case: Not wanting to act on him while he’s vulnerable and might potentially get hurt.
A nuance spotting in the wild on the internet! This is rare indeed!
Oh, Lucy has good reasons for not moving on him, but the feeling of “I am grooming a friend for future romance” is still there. You don’t make friends “for now”. I think she’s making a somewhat poor decision, or at least a dicey one.
personally I’d say it’s not a bad idea to befriend someone you might want to smooch because of two things: in the course of the friendship you might find out something that makes them an incompatible romance partner but an ok friend (such as non matching sexuality preferences); and there’s the possibility you’ll get rejected romantically but you can still remain in a close platonic friendship with that person. Though the latter can also end catastrophically
I’ve had both happen to me, a friendship that might have led to romance stayed a strong platonic friendship to this day, but also a friendship that started out because I was interested in someone exploded in my face with this person accusing me of being smothering.
Oh, don’t get me wrong… I’m married to someone that I was friends with for 7 years before we started dating. Friendship –> romance is 100% valid! I can’t even claim that my spouse didn’t have smooshy feelings for me off and on for most of that time period. It’s just a combination of other bad experiences with people who weren’t nearly as decent, and maybe my own incapability to have feelings for anyone I haven’t known for like at least a year. ^_^’
really the comic was just describing building a normal relationship but putting a bad spin on it. Theirs definitely a bad mindset that can lead to a relationship like that being toxic, but the same can be said about any relationship. Really the terribleness comes from ragging on their current partner in hopes that they leave them for you. Otherwise being there for someone and developing a relationship where both parties feel like they can depend on the other isn’t a bad thing.
I do just want to clarify that the kind clarify that the kind of relationship in the comic is very bad and manipulative and that there are people like that in the real world. It just seems like its trying to paint all people who want to start slow with a friendship before moving into a relationship are playing these kinds of manipulative mind games.
I think she means that she’s only seeking friendship now and might attempt an upgrade later on but the friendship will still be genuine.
Yeah, I took it that way, too. The last time people assumed she was up to something sneaky, it turned out to just be her trying to get info on Billie to maybe get her to go to her party, and not dirt on her like people thought it was.
Not saying she’s up for sainthood or anything, but she’s seemed pretty straightforward so far.
I confess, have we ever seen a “Nice Girl” in fiction where they pretend to be a friend only to try to subvert the relationship to romance? We’ve got lots of dudes in it but I don’t think I ever saw the gender reverse.
I can’t think of one off the top of my head, even though I feel like I’ve seen it at least once or twice. I knew one IRL (who was also… like… the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a real-life yandere, so yikes on that one), but I’ve definitely seen a couple dozen Nice Guys compared to that one Nice Girl so *shrug*
I think Marenette from Miraculous Ladybug might count.
I actually considered that as an avid watcher of the show, but really, she isn’t trying to form a friendship with Adrien in an attempt to date him… she’s just flat-out trying her best to be upfront with her crush on him and is terrible at expressing it. Along the way, they do end up becoming friends, but that wasn’t actually Marinette’s plan.
One thing I really liked about the most recent episode, “Stormy Weather 2,” is that she finally acknowledges that they’ve become good friends (even if she does think of it as “just friends” and wanting something “more”) and seems to decide that, putting her feelings aside, she truly does want to be a good friend to him because he needs and deserves that.
Sorry, you totally didn’t ask for a mini-essay but since I’d already considered the subject, I had to pop up again and ramble. ^-^
(Frankly, Chat Noir to Ladybug is closer to the Nice Guy trope than Marinette is to Adrien in their civilian lives. The writing can be a bit consistent, so I tell myself that his flirting and her playfully rebuffing him is just kinda their established and agreed-on dynamic by this point, since we HAVE seen them have a conversation where he says how much he genuinely values her friendship. Oops, I rambled again.)
*inconsistent, not consistent. Lol, that’s the opposite of what I meant.
It’s a common trope in anime/manga, but I don’t recall it in Western fiction. But then again I don’t read romance as a genre, tried a few and just couldn’t wrap my mind around it.
Joyce did that to Jason in this very comic!
I don’t think she’s pretending to want friendship at all. If she didn’t like him enough to want to be friends, I doubt she’d be interested in a relationship with him
I mean, building a friendship with someone you’re interested in is probably one of the most healthy things to do if you’re potentially interested in a relationship. Be friends first.
Yeah, „gonna be his friend first“ got a facepalm here, too.
Becoming friends with someone because you hope for an eventual relationship upgrade tends to be a fast-track to resentment city. I mean, relationship‘s with crushes CAN work, but the hopee has to either let go of their hope-for-more or manage it well enough that it doesn‘t become painful for either of them.
But hey, it‘s dumbing of Age. And Lucy, like all the others, still has some growing up to do.
I think there is a really, really fine line here that ultimately comes down to something in Lucy’s heart that is impossible for anyone but her (and difficult even for herself) to truly know: If romance was off the table forever, would she still want the friendship, not as a consolation prize but as something she would value in its own right? If yes, then it’s probably fine, or at least can be fine though there are potential pitfalls to steer clear of. If no, she really needs to get right the hell out with all of that.
I think her point is more, that she would bring it up now, but he has just had a break up. She would rather be friends with him until he is in a better place/not in a place of vulnerability to say she is interested. And if he isn’t, they can just continue being friends.
That’s how I read it, too. Not nefarious at all.
Mey Malky, mow moo mooing?
You perform a “move” with your “crotch”.
I thought it was the hips.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FaintWarmIslandcanary-size_restricted.gif
The Spouse notes that “select fart” is NEVER the correct option.
On the other hand, it’s Walky. His Twitter is like 90% tweets hash-tagged “#stool”.
Choose now: fart or death?
So does anyone know what these ‘moves’ actually are? I ask because my friend basically had to trick my boyfriend and I into getting together three years ago.
You whip off your pants and holler “Come and get it!”
You put on a wizard movie and do that thing with the sorting hat except all answers are “my pants.”
You put on your robe and wizard hat.
My moves are trying to bond over like minded things, slowly flirting and apologizing and hoping I don’t overstep my boundaries. And then inevitably finding out that I’m not that girl’s type, she has a boyfriend, or they’re not looking for a relationship.
Needless to say I am very lonely.
Well, it’s just a jump to the left.
You freak out internally, tell them you are interested, then immediately drop dead so you don’t have to hear their response.
You throw a toy at their head.
That is a Walky-specific “move”.
If it doesn’t work by the time you get to the pelvic thrust, it will drive you insane.
This was supposed to be a response to MatthewTheLucky.
Dunno, I usually let the friendship evolve and get closer and more intimate. If the other person is interested, a closer relationship is in their interest, too. And usually, an opportunity to speak about my feelings came up within two to six months. And that’s it.
Moves sounds way too complicated and difficult.
Yes, this.
Solid relationship advice. No ‘moves’ needed.
Last time I attempted to perform a “moves” it was having a couple of beers and discussing Babylon 5. A couple decades later we’re still married, so something worked…
I have looked up these ‘moves’ on a thing called the ‘internet’. It seems to go something like this:
– First, you perform a ‘flirts’. If they like your ‘flirts’, move to step 2.
– Try a ‘hugs’. If they try a ‘gropes’, perform a ‘dumped’. Otherwise, move to step 3.
– Try a ‘kisses’. If they try a ‘gropes’, perform a ‘dumped’. Otherwise, move to step 4.
– Quest complete! Item Awards:
– 2 Stimpaks
– 2 Rad-Away
– 3 Canned Dog Food
– 12 Condom
– Plan: Relationship
Actions Unlocked:
– Gropes
– Snuggles
– Makeouts
you forgot a step. Are gropes welcome, if yes, perform a “respond favourably”, if no, perform a “dumped”.
If Woody had gone straight to the police…..
Ah, shuddup!
Woody Woodpecker or the guy from Toy Story?
That’s very understandable and very respectable….but Also a unnecessary waste of time considering doing the opposite seems to have worked on him before.
Then again considering how his recent today long relationship went he’s probably learn to take things a bit slower himself.
Mandatory: I love Lucy but wish she wasn’t being shipped with Walky.
Mind you, I hope she keeps her screentime even if she doesn’t work out.
Same, she’s a cute sweetheart and deserves tons of screen time, but also this is doomed to crash and burn and I don’t want her to cry.
The best move is to use the mouth.
To communicate honestly and tell people what you want and feel.
Billie to Lucy: “You and I are very different.”
Billie to the 3 Fangirls: When I see something I want, yeah, I take it.
When Lucy sees something she wants, yeah, she…
… goes and writes some smutty Harry Potter-related fanfic about it. AND NEVER POSTS IT.
Hermione’s crush on Ernie MacMillan goes much too far.
Captain Falcon:
“Show yer Moves!”
He just had two breakups in a week, which makes it okay again.
Second breakup is not a done deal. Yet.
It ought to be eminently saveable, but neither Amber nor Walky seems likely to try. Walky can’t go back to Amber ready to talk about it until he talks to Sal first, and he won’t talk to Sal while he can not talk to Sal. Amber, meanwhile, has an entrenched habit of finding explanations for adverse events that are personal, persistent, and catastrophic, and therefore very poor resilience. She’s unlikely to come back for a second bite at the cherry.
I’ll bet he talks to Sal tomorrow, if not tonight.
(In comic tomorrow, which gives everyone plenty of time to forget I said this.
Lucy’s got it BAD. The tragedy is she has no idea what to do about it.
Zoe: Sir, I’d like you to take the helm, please. I need this man to tear all my clothes off.
Wash: Work, work, work.
Lucy, that’s a pretty, uh, not great thing to be doing. Treating friendship as just a stepping stone to a relationship is a pretty creeper thing to do.
I don’t know — sure, if you’re ONLY after whatever you think comes next, that isn’t great. (If you’re going to drop your new “friend” or be angry if they’re not interested in a relationship with you, that’s shit!)
But if you’re happy to be friends regardless of whether anything else happens (even though you hope for a romantic or sexual relationship), it’s a pretty normal way to get into a relationship, I think. As far as I am aware, many people do things as friends first before professing any romantic or sexual interest.
No, that is an organic method of establishing a romantic relationship over time. It never worked for me because of the “over time” part while I was growing up. Until I was a sophomore in HS the longest I remained in proximity to another unrelated human being was 9 months, with an average of 6 weeks.
I love how Billie thinks everything is going by the script… until she finds out Lucy has a completely different script.
I also love how Walky bugs out the first sign of drama. He learnt his lesson after garbage roof.
More importantly, he was just hanging out with a new friend and now it’s time to head back to the dorm. Billie doesn’t seem in any immediate danger even though she’s drunk so he really doesn’t have any reason to stay!
Sure, but I also think he reads the room and realizes that Lucy has a thing for him and that something complicated is going on between Lucy and Billie. Not a bad time to bug out.
I love character development! Even if it’s as minuscule as showing an emotion that isn’t enthusiasm
I like her square face
Next aprils fools slipshine: “Lucy Performs a Moves”.
My thought exactly
Well… It’s almost what I was hoping for. If nothing else, doing the right thing for bad reasons is better than just doing the wrong thing
I’m kinda with Billie. Walky runs through girls pretty fast so it’s better to strike while the iron is hot. She’s gonna show up tomorrow and he’ll be in bed with Malaya.
I don’t know about Walky going through girls fast, him and Dorothy had a pretty lengthy relationship. If anything his relationship is the kind that Lucy is trying to avoid, that being one built out of emotional vulnerability and doomed to fall apart at the slightest adversity.
This comic isn’t long enough for someone to be in a lengthy relationship that started after it did.
OTOH, there hasn’t been enough time to see that “Walky runs through girls pretty fast” either. (I think Walky and Dorothy is still the longest running relationship? Started well before any of the other still going contenders.)
That also implies that it’s due to his own actions rather than external things causing the breakup – Dorothy’s overwork and Amber’s history with Sal. Assuming the Amber thing is actually over, which is still on hold pending Walky talking to Sal.
I think Rachel (not other-Rachel) is in a relationship with someone from their hall as well, but I forget who. And sometimes Sierra(?) joined in. It’s been a while but I remember we got a Joyce-face out of it. I don’t think we know when that started but there’s a good chance it predates Walky/Dorothy and is still stable.
I thought that was Mandy and Grace?
Yeah, Mandy/Grace/Sierra.
That’s true. Mandy/Grace seems older. I think Sierra was a later addition.
Grace and Mandy are roommates and a couple. Sierra sometimes makes out with Grace and sometimes with Mandy, with the consent of all concerned. We do not know if all three ever make out with each other simultaneously.
Rachel is often seen in the corridors with Grace and/or Mandy, but unless there’s a patreon strip we don’t know who (or if) she makes out with.
Oh yeah, that was it. I remembered there was some “rac” combination in the name and my mind jumped to Rachel instead of Grace. You’re absolutely right.
Anyway, Mandy/Grace (whether with or without Sierra) predates Walky/Dotty to my understanding.
Yeah, that’s a bizarre side effect of comic time passing so slowly — Dorothy’s and Walky’s relationship seemed really long, but can’t have been more than 4 weeks or so in comic time?
That’s not even considered lenghty by high school standards.
Jeez, and it feels like they were together for a year almost. 4 weeks really puts it into perspective.
But also, damn Walky. He turns around and smacks into ladies wanting to date him every five seconds it seems.
It’s that delicious caramel color.
Sculpted caramel, isn’t it?
About six weeks or so. Six and a half?
Courtesy of the Walkypedia contributors and maintainers:
The toy-throw was on Aug. 30, their first date/make-out was Sept. 5, and their final break-up was Oct. 12. So depending on what you count as a start, 5-1/2 to 6 weeks.
Lucy standing up to Billie is a thing of beauty.
I’m like Lucy in that I don’t really know how to “perform a moves” either, though I usually end up developing feelings for someone after I’ve been friends with them for a while, rather than before befriending them.
That’s a cheat not a move. QCF + Punch is a move.
Come to think of it…isn’t that the self-destruct cheat code from Gradius 3?
It’s the Konami Code.
Yeah, but doesn’t the code instantly destroy your ship if you put it in slightly wrong?
I’m wondering if Billie will try to explain ‘moves’ to Lucy; Lucy will remark that she’s uncomfortable acting ‘slutty’ and this quite shocks Billie who had never before considered that there may be objections to that sort of behaviour.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by either of those quoted words. Is it considered slutty for a girl to openly hit on a guy she’s interested in?
That’s very much a ‘point of view’ question. The answer, in my point of view, very much depends on how open the sexual ‘come on’ is (and it is a unisex standard; I don’t approve of it in men either).
Billie almost slept with Danny for paying her a compliment so you could consider that Billie’s suggested ones probably would be. And as we have seen from these last couple of strips, she doesn’t consider that Lucy may not be as interested in sex as she is and may not see it as a priority.
Lucy does not perform a Moves. I think she’s lonely in Forest. And I think she maybe has feelings for Walky. Were they there before Billy suggested it? I also think she’s conflicted. She wants to do the right thing. But she wants something else. And she isn’t crafty enough to manipulate Walky into a relationship. There are some similarities with Joyce’s situation with her feelings for Jacob.
No Lucy! Thats the path of the “nice guy” don’t go down it!
No, a Nice Guy would pounce while he’s vulnerable. Just befriending someone you like to get close to them is pretty normal. Plus, I doubt she’d throw a tantrum if she got rejected
By definition, nerds are born without moves.
Future Slipshine title: Lucy performs a ‘Moves’.
So, did Lucy just admit to “White Knighting” Walky? She just said she wanted to be friends with Walky, so that she can get into his pants, later on. That sounds like a working definition of “White Knight”, to me.
No. Pretty much not at all.
“White Knighting” is specifically protecting or defending someone so they’ll be grateful and reward you with sex. There’s none of that here.
Even the more general become friends while thinking about something more isn’t inherently wrong. It depends on how it’s approached and how they react if it doesn’t turn into romance.
Apologies for the overlap — I spent too long making sure I was saying what I wanted to be saying…
Except it’s not. She hasn’t swept to his rescue unasked with the intent of making him feel that he’s obliged to be grateful, which is what “White Knighting” means. You have it confused with “Nice Guy Syndrome”.
Also, since both are based in the unequal power dynamics of patriarchal society, I’m not sure women can do either of them. If it seems unfair that women can’t be accused of this stuff, I strongly recommend smashing the patriarchy.
Also, what she actually said was that she wants to be friends because he needs a friend, and for that reason, she’s putting the getting into his pants thing — which she has no idea how to achieve anyway — on hold.
“I strongly recommend smashing the patriarchy” is some good, all-purpose advice.
I love it when someone says a plural
I dunno. I don’t think Lucy’s approach is perfect, but it’s not awful or excessively selfish or anything like that either. Trying to be friends first is definitely undercut by her already deciding for sure she wants to try dating, but she’s pretty clearly taking his feelings into account and I think that says a lot of good things.
Also it might be for the best if Billie doesn’t realize what a great foil Lucy makes for her. Might get a little too meta.
Technically, Walky just had TWO breakups…
Although Lucy only knows about the first one…
No, she knows about them both. If she didn’t, I don’t think she’d be even vaguely considering making moves.
There was supposed to be a link there:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/02-but-the-sun-still-shines/octobersurprised/
Right, I had forgotten that she did know about Amber.
I really like the understated truth of Billie’s drunken realization “You and I are very different people.” Works on almost every level.
However, Lucy wouldn’t get far in a serious relationship with Walky, unless he dealt with his racist mom. Not ruling it out, just saying that ship is fraught with family drama.
So being the Lucy fan that I am it seems to me that Lucy is being a kind and decent person and that the only negative that could be brought up is about the moves coming later even though that’s probably how most people think but dont normally verbalize.
She likes him (for the life of me I cant see why but that’s her call) so shes going to be supportive to help him and then when hes over it or in a better place she’s going to move on him (I can see her putting on a Hermione Granger school uniform, grabbing a wand and waving it at Walky saying Expecto Erecto or something)
There’s nothing wrong with that at all except that I can easily see Walky thinking of Lucy as a friend only
Mr. Willis, this is one of your best hovertexts yet.
That is all.
You know you’re seriously drunk when the bubbles are orbiting around your head.
Newsflash, Lucy: While you’re trying to be nice and wait until he’s in a better situation, he will get a new girlfriend before you can say “rebound”.
He can only do that so many times before he runs out.