Two strips after this one, a commenter joked about how George Bush hadn’t been president for a whole 4 years. Really puts into perspective how long this comic has been going.
Is it good or bad wriing when characters live rent free in reader’s heads even when they’re not appearing. Between the constant Joyce and Dorothy condemnation and the What-about-Joe-ism I don’t know.
Yeah, it’ll be real boring to get back to the romance after the riveting action of (checks strip) three panels of someone lying in bed looking at a phone.
A few weeks back I commented that all the late additions to Shortpacked had already surpassed their Walkyverse appearances over in DOA, but this proves me wrong.
I guess that makes this the de-facto hater thread then. Here I go, so you don’t feel lonely: I feel like there’s a bit of wasted space here. It’ll be fine when reading the comic through later, but as a daily update there’s not much to it.
The strip feels structured like there’s some kind of reveal but I feel like I’m missing it. Is it just that Angie’s on her phone for a long period of time? Is Asma supposedly doing dawn prayer off-panel?
Just going off vibes, Joyce is a cleric, Dorothy is a wizard, Sal is a fighter, Walky is a wild magic sorcerer, Amber/AG is a barbarian-paladin multiclass, Becky is a bard, and Dina is a Druid (specializes in wild shaping into dinosaurs specifically of course)
Joyce is a Spiritist/Loremaster
Amber is a Fury/Darkblade
Danny is a Chanter/Floralist
Sal is a Fury/Orator/Pilot
Malaya is a Wayfarer/Loremaster
Carla is a Tinkerer/Spiritist
Dorothy is a Gourmet/Orator
Mike is dead
Dina is a Rogue/Entropist
Billie is a Chimerist/Pilot
Lucy is a Dancer/Arcanist/Spiritist
Becky is a Merchant/Symbolist
Joyce is a paladin, recently respecced into the Oathbreaker subclass.
Amber/AG is 1000% the Vigilante class from Pathfinder 1e. It’s even got the “two personas, one for ordinary social interaction and one for fighting crime” feature.
I am weirdly uncomfortable with having seen Asma without her hijab.
Like, she’s a fictional character and *of course* she doesn’t wear it when sleeping so naturally in her room she’s not wearing it, but it feels like a lot more of a personal violation than, say, seeing Joyce in a bra.
(I am not saying the depiction was wrong, immoral, or anyone else should share or act on this discomfort, just putting it out for consideration)
It may depend on what sex you are and your upbringing. Women’s hair. Once upon a time it was ankles, such that even furniture items had their ‘feet’ covered.
Gender, yes, upbringing no. It’s not about prudery as such.
The thing that bugs me is knowing that Asma would object to a random man seeing her without her hijab; it feels like a major violation to me.
What I cannot readily reconcile is, what’s different about Asma-without-hijab that *feels* wrong, which doesn’t bother me about Joyce-without-shirt? Or even, hypothetically, Joyce topless – which isn’t shown but doesn’t bother me as a thing.
There’s a lot of cultural stuff to be considered; I think maybe part of it is that while I know a reasonable amount regarding Muslim culture – albeit not specifically Asma’s – it’s definitely something I consider foreign to me. White Midwestern American culture has plenty of hangups – but I know how to handle the exceptions and violations because it’s *my* culture.
It might be the fact that it isn’t necessarily a sexual thing (like it would be if you were to see Joyce in a bra) but instead something that is cultural, religious, and important to Asma that makes you feel more uncomfortable. Much like if you were to accidentally peek in on a private and intimate moment that’s not quite sexual. Like, say somebody is paying respects to a dead loved one and you walk in them. It’s an emotional thing you’ve walked in on without asking the person and so you feel discomfort and shame.
Like sexual things might be a bit more desensitized (this comic has had the women in their panties at points pretty much from the beginning I think) whereas seeing Asma without her hijab is a completely new thing to contend with. Also disclaimer cause like Hasufin, I’m not saying it is wrong or immoral to depict this, I’m not of that culture and do not feel comfortable making that call, I’m just spitballing reasons why this feels more ‘wrong’ than seeing undies.
If it bothers you that you have seen Asma’s hair when she wouldn’t want you to, but it doesn’t bother you that you have seen Joyce in a bra when she wouldn’t want you to, that suggests you are placing Asma’s concerns on a higher moral plane than Joyce’s. Why that would be I couldn’t tell you, as I do not think there is or should be a moral difference.
I agree! I feel fine for me personally because I’m a woman and have seen hijabi women’s hair before, but it makes me a little uncomfortable that everyone can see it. But she’s a fictional character! It should be fine!
Would love to hear Muslim traders weighing in on this. So far all the comments about it have pretty clearly come from well-meaning non-Muslim readers who don’t know what to feel but are pretty sure we should be feeling something.
(Also, I don’t think it’s true that Willis “couldn’t get a consensus” on BlueSky about depicting Asma without her hijab, I think the responses they got were pretty consistently “don’t ask BlueSky about this, ask yourself why you’re trying to depict a Muslim character when you know so little about Islam; don’t you have any friends you can ask? And if not, why is that?”
I sure hope the intervening time has been spent addressing at least the first issue and learning more independently and getting a sensitivity reader (since making new friends is hard on a deadline).)
yeah I can see how it’d be (at least in part) informed by disproportionate prompts from students who use AI to cheat on their history homework, go fucking figure 9-9
Oh, autocorrect and like grammarly are both messed up specifically because their stupid AI is trained to consider prevalence proof. If a misspelling is common enough, AI-influenced spellcheck will literally suggest misspellings now. It’s great. /s
My understanding is that Willis does have a sensitivity reader, and that the fact they held back the kiss strip from them is why it turned out the very unfortunate way that it did?
Li’s comment: On the other hand, is it reasonable to ask your Muslim friend to speak for all Muslims? Asking on social media allows people to respond only if they want to, but runs the risk of a biased response, and certainly less of the ‘meh, whatever’ type response.
As for depicting a Muslim character, well, if the ‘dominant’ culture doesn’t who does? Was there not criticism for lack of this type of diversity? Is it not informative that not wearing it among women or in the family/at home is usual?
In fact, given the *lack* of response from Muslim readers, either they don’t feel safe responding (our fault), or they don’t feel particularly strongly, or a 3rd thing that I haven’t thought of.
Whitebred folk tend to be weird on the matter precisely because of how often Muslims are just “other” to them, this apparent hesitation and fear of offense being the start and end of their anti-racist praxis per-say is a tell tale sign on how little they’ve actually socialized with Muslims, if at all.
I met Lur (who’s Hijabi) here in the comments, and she had this to say on the matter:
“In the age of internet, living somewhere with a predominantly white Christian population is no excuse for not having non-white or Muslim (or other belief systems) friends.
If you still somehow have no Muslim friends? (Muslim/non-white/etc., i’m just sticking to the main matter)
Then usually what that says about you is that you probably haven’t made an effort to be a safe person for them.
Like there’s a LOT of people on the internet, odds that you haven’t engaged with any of them are rare, if you haven’t made any Muslim friends over the internet, well… that means that either you are subconsciously avoiding them, or they are consciously avoiding you.”
Yup, just checked my list of people to contact in the event of my death, and there are just nine names on it. And if I’m honest, I’m only in regular contact with about half of them. Ironically, that’s mostly the ones I haven’t ever met face to face. (The rest, I went to college with.)
There used to be a couple more, but they’re dead now. Happens as you get older.
yeah as an autistic person who has trouble socializing, I GET that there’s a difference between not having a lot of POC friends, and just not having a lot of friends in GENERAL
heck I actually asked Willis about how difficult it was to actually socialize with Muslims within his own neighborhood b/c of the caveats of living in a red state, etc
turns out, the school he sends his kids to is 20% Muslim students, and even recognizes Eid as an official holiday — but he says he doesn’t really talk to people or get out much
and like, VALID
and like
for the time being, for Willis to write a story that accounts for blindspots like this is something he just can’t do *completely* on his own without the help of a sensitivity reader or otherwise — and that’s OKAY
I have long accepted that socially progressive causes will ALWAYS be at this natural disadvantage to conservative ones, in that
it will ALWAYS take a relatively big amount of time and effort to be factually and morally right for the sake of better informed public/people, better decisions and policy for a more fair and equitable society to happen
by contrast, it will always take a relatively small amount of time and effort to remain wrong, but be satiated with quippy rhetoric and thought-terminating clichés which allow one to feel “informed enough” and absolve their guilt regardless of what is actually true and we need to understand for a better society
I mean, I’ve got Arabic neighbors – I think they’re probably Muslim, but can’t say for sure – but even if I weren’t autistic, it’d be hard to make friends with them, because they barely speak English and I don’t speak their language at all.
I’m kind of friendly with the Sikh gentleman down the street, but in practice that mostly means we nod at one another when encountering one another in public.
Y’know, I don’t actually know the religious affiliation of just about anyone on my Internet friends lists, so I can’t say if I have any specifically Muslim friends or not. I’m basically indifferent to religion and didn’t realize I was supposed to be keeping track of other people’s unprompted.
Yeah, I only know the religions of a few of my friends, and they tend to be the sort who bring it up unprompted (not evangelizing but because it’s also part of their culture heavily and impacts plans, etc)
Well I live in an actual Muslim country where Islam is the state religion (well ‘religion of the federation” as per the constitution) and while I’m not Muslim my comment is that there’s what is tolerated by people in real life and what is tolerated in media that may draw the attention of religious authority on the grounds of moral policing and making examples of artists and creators to enforce a atmosphere of self censorship.
Hi Muslim commenter here! Mainly haven’t commented because I am not hijabi and did not grow up wearing a hijab, and so anything I would say about the topic would only come from a slightly more informed place of conjecture. The only meaningful bit of 2¢ I can give is that contextually there is nothing happening in the last strip that would frame Asma not having her hijab on as anything but naturalistic. It is as neutral as neutral goes (waking up in the morning to get ready), versus a hypothetical version of that same strip where the subtext frames Asma as trapped/stuck/etc. because of her hijab (and on a wider whole, her Muslim Identity).
But also straight up I am trying to comment less whenever like, any kind of dialogue happens in the comments (I.e is this specific depiction of a muslim character doing [x] written by someone who isn’t muslim proper/acceptable/problematical/etc.) simply because I very much do not want to do that! It is exhausting!
Putting aside the fact that I am one person whose relationship to my own religion + religious identity do not and should not be the objective standard of “the Muslim-American perspective”, there is a level of emotional labor that happens when your ability to inform a well meaning but ignorant majority is *expected* more than it is welcomed. I do not want to expend myself spending time on this impossible task, especially when the negative tension in the comments section in relation to it’s Muslim characters has unsafe enough at times that actively spending more than 2 minutes commenting on anything would have been at the detriment of my own mental health.
I don’t think I would have worded things as directly as NGZP has, (although I do think if you aren’t Muslim you have a responsibility to show that are safe to be around, bare minimum), but broadly I do encourage that you develop a sense of active curiosity to answer these questions by yourself, instead of staying in a state of self-aware ignorance. Ad hoc just talk to us! Treat us like people you *could* end up being friends with, instead of this nebulous other, but short of that I encourage people to engage with Muslim/SWANA media and writing more, both the academic and the pop culture stuff. Take a minute and listen, to our words, our music, our comments on funny webcomics about silly teens. It is easy to stay ignorant about Muslim/SWANA culture and issues because there is little social punishment in the west for doing so, which is why the best thing you can do is reject that impulse. This is all I will say for now, short of any continued conversations about this comment.
Also just wanna make this clear, this is not a callout towards anyone on this thread! These are thoughts that I’ve been having as the wider conversation around how this comic writes its Muslim characters (and how the readers react to those conversations) continues to persist.
Hey, thank you for writing all this out even when you were inclined not to. I think it’s great that you’ve been protecting and preserving your mental health in general, and I hope it’s helping lots.
sorry to hear this place is so taxing on your mental health, taking a break from here is MORE than valid
glad you were able to offer this perspective regardless,
re: “there is a level of emotional labor that happens when your ability to inform a well meaning but ignorant majority is *expected* more than it is welcomed”
this is literally part of what I was talking about (well, what Lur told me) earlier,
to treat a person of color like they’re supposed to be some kind of walking history museum or something for the sake of convenience or something
Nymph + NGPZ thank you both. Trust that the impulse to ignore my boundaries and get into internet fights was there, but shoutout to my friends for helping me through when the private griping was getting a little too into self destructive territory. It also helps that I’ve fully embraced the fact that I could and should save my hot takes for my tumblr, where any fights that could hypothetically happen is at least on my turf.
Hey, I’m sorry, my comment very much was not meant to be calling on Muslim readers to sound off. It’s just been a couple of days of what really seems to be just clueless non-Muslims pondering out loud amongst ourselves about whether or not this was wrong.
Looking up information is ALSO good. Folks who know Muslim opinions on these matters sharing what they know is also good! It definitely isn’t anyone’s responsibility to answer.
I should have phrased my comment differently. I was in a rush, but that’s no excuse, no one made me rush but me.
Hey Li, just know that yr good! Like I said I didn’t intend to have my comment be a callout as much as it is a reaction to the kinds of conversations that happen in here now that the Muslim DOA cast is getting some more spotlight.
If anything I appreciated that your first response was to take note that making any kind of definitive statement about the cultural expectations of an infamously misrepresented and misunderstood demographic based off vibes would be sketch.
Thank you. Both for speaking up and for the kind words.
Just, yeah, I absolutely did phrase the first bit badly ❤️
I’ve always appreciated your comments but also fully respect the… exhaustion part. I hope your time spent taking a step back is good for you, that you’re able to recharge (for your own sake!!! not for ours!!!), and most of all that you stay safe out there. May we all stay safe out there these days, heh.
Also I feel more able to speak up about Jewish issues bc I’ve done some research and some listening and have wound up with a bunch of Jewish mutuals. Obviously high time I step up efforts to research and listen to Muslim folks. YouTube is an easy place to start!
Oh I do not pay any attention to what YouTube recommends and I’ve got my watch history turned off to make it harder for them >> but I figure it’ll be easy to find a list of recommended creators on Tumblr and then from there find people to watch & follow on BlueSky & stuff.
I try to refer to literature and movies as much as I can, simply because trying to find videos on Youtube about this kind of thing can be SO vast and overwhelming, but I can at least recommend TWO YouTube videos off the top of my head that I think rule lmfao.
We Are Lady Parts & We Are Shattering Stereotypes by Yhara Zayd (EXCELLENT video by an excellent film essayist, would absolutely recommend her channel on the whole)
Orientalism: Desert Level Music vs Actual Middle-Eastern Music by Farya Faraji
Big disclaimer though; I do NOT recommend Farya Faraji’s Orientalism Part Two, both because I haven’t seen it all the way through (and thus cannot vouch for it the same way I can for part 1) and because the first part is too “I’m not like those other overly sensitive blue hair pronoun woke Arabs online I’m rational” shit going on in the first 12+ minutes for me to want to finish it, but goes to show the strength of part 1 that I’m still recommending that people check that original video out lol.
Oh, thank you! Going to tumblr was expressly to avoid asking you for more labor today but I super appreciate it. 🫂 And I promise it wouldn’t just be YouTube 🙂
Neither I nor anyone on BlueSky that I saw said anything about using your Muslim friends as free beta readers, Thing2. Willis not having any Muslim friends is a separate but dovetailing issue. Having diverse friends just naturally expands the types of stories one wants to tell.
All I’m saying is, people might be less eager to call Dojoycerothy boring if you wrote a storyline about them committing some kind of felony together, like a little small murder or two. I’m not telling you how to do your job, though.
I’m sorry that the last few weeks/months of discourse have been so frustrating for you, and I’d like the opportunity to say that in spite of the often sharp criticism I’ve made towards some of your storytelling decisions with regards to Dororthy/Joyce and the circumstances surrounding their kiss, I have immense respect for you as a creative and a cartoonist. I’ve been following your work since I was in middle school – and apologies for making you feel old there – and you have had an outsized influence on my own creative pursuits. Something I don’t think critics of the last few storylines have said enough is that I love your work, and any criticisms I make come from the place of that love.
The containment thread emerged as an effort to turn down the temperature of the comment section by isolating the kevtching to a single space, and I apologize if the effect of that has become a source of stress for you. Out of respect for you and your work, I’m perfectly happy to cut it out to save you that stress. I will say that I don’t approve of the people who have used it to insult you personally, or to crow endlessly about how they’re just about to quit the strip, any day now, they swear, or especially who use it as cover for actual factual bigotry, but I get how it can all blend together for someone who has to moderate all this.
I hope you’re able to have a more pleasant day, and that the upcoming holidays are relaxing and enjoyable for you. You more than deserve it.
I’ll second that, honestly. I’m not going to be as good at saying it as Dot, but ultimately I’m here because Willis has been a quality source of entertainment for twenty years!
Honestly, I can name exactly two webcomics I’ve commented on when I’ve been disappointed by a turn, and in both cases they’re the ones I bought the books for and followed from the start. Might not count for much, but I don’t much feel like it’s worth the bother to complain about things that haven’t set a high bar to begin with.
as much as you can screw up sometimes I still love the hell out of your comic! 🥺
Like bruh ya made a Dina plush. It’s not like I can stay mad at you forever 😭🦖
Re: hater thread, maybe hiring a mod or two for the comments to take the load off wouldn’t be such a bad idea? Just a thought, like at this point there’s no way this kind of job can be done by a single author anymore
I do think some of it is a direct consequence of us convincing ourselves “oh, Willis doesn’t have time to comment as much these days, they’re probably also not reading as much, so whatever I say here, it’s not like I’m saying it where they can hear me”.
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New breakout character Angie I’m sure!
Hi Angie
Took me a minute to remember her.
Man, 15 years into this comic and Willis still has OCs to mine from the previous ‘verse.
There’s still some characters to pull. Duncan, Guns, Manny…
Duncan showed up once, a long time ago
Actually kind of surprised he only made the one appearance
Two strips after this one, a commenter joked about how George Bush hadn’t been president for a whole 4 years. Really puts into perspective how long this comic has been going.
Why did my back start hurting all of a sudden
(haha i’m kidding. it’s been hurting for the last 20 years at least)
Actually, what happened to Plasma Mongoose? Daily commenter for years and years and years – *poof* gone.
That is the way of the internet. Here today; gone tomorrow.
Hopefully well and off living their best life or some such.
Guns on the other hand will show up when hell freezes over
If then. I seem to recall Willis saying that Guns would *never* appear in DoA.
Singular Cat, Ninja Rick (I know Willis refuse do reimplement him), Sensible Computer, …
I forgot Angie was a character in the other Willis comic universe. Though to be fair, she only appeared in a few strips.
I don’t remember her from SP, and I have to rectify that. Bonus points for freckles!
Cool points for the leftover soup gravitar
Angie is a mood, sadly
Angie: being an energy absorbing slime monster. Just a theory.
Willis I consider the fact we’ve only just met Angie and not have had a 3 arc 4 chapter saga following her journey of self discipline
A great insult
I wonder what her personality is like.
Blunt. Subdued. Moderately Treacherous.
Sorry buddy we’ve got to get back to Joyce and Dorothy making kissy faces so this will be all you’re getting for 6 months.
Whatever.
Sorry I’m a hater now.
That’s your problem, not mine.
It’s not a problem unless you make it a problem.
This is such a weird thread.
Is it good or bad wriing when characters live rent free in reader’s heads even when they’re not appearing. Between the constant Joyce and Dorothy condemnation and the What-about-Joe-ism I don’t know.
Shakes is trying to make it Taffy’s problem, and now so are you.
Yeah, it’ll be real boring to get back to the romance after the riveting action of (checks strip) three panels of someone lying in bed looking at a phone.
It’s relatable.
that can’t be good for your eyes
Self-discipline can’t be good for your eyes
(don’t trust self-discipline)
You’re thinking of self-abuse.
It’ll make you go blind!
It’s even worse for your neck!
…which was?
osmosis works too, can’t sit on a desk all day
She’s only had strips of history and only one appearance technically, but sometimes you gotta put in the work and get to em early…….Don’t trust Angie.
Look her villainy in the other comic was pretty mild and honestly not even fully unjustified.
And yet she was the most effective member of the Axis of Something.
Really, if Malaya were my roommate, I’d probably turn to supervillainy too.
The people yearn for Angie’s training montage.
I am a people who yearns
It’s just the first three panels of today’s strip on repeat.
So, Amber with slightly better emotional regulation?
A few weeks back I commented that all the late additions to Shortpacked had already surpassed their Walkyverse appearances over in DOA, but this proves me wrong.
I love the tension break we’re getting.
Another strip where Joyce fails to burst into the room to talk to Joe.
How dare
Joe isn’t even in this room.
Joe mama
Damn, got ’em.
Are you sure?
What are you, a cop? What’s with all these questions?
Hey, you’re the one making definitive statements.
I guess that makes this the de-facto hater thread then. Here I go, so you don’t feel lonely: I feel like there’s a bit of wasted space here. It’ll be fine when reading the comic through later, but as a daily update there’s not much to it.
Is anything changing in the first three panels?
The strip feels structured like there’s some kind of reveal but I feel like I’m missing it. Is it just that Angie’s on her phone for a long period of time? Is Asma supposedly doing dawn prayer off-panel?
Appreciate any insights.
Not “supposedly”, Asma is indeed doing her prayers. That was her prayer mat yesterday.
yeah, and momentarily she gonna be facing the window
lol sorry I didn’t mean it to mean like “allegedly” or anything. Just more like “we’re meant to assume it”
Yes, Angie’s expression changes slightly, as does the position of the arm holding up the phone and the sheets around her elbow.
The minor changes actually show that she is phone-zoned the fuck out more effectively than simply copy-pasting the identical panel three times would.
Space is time in comics.
She’s praying half in the panel. That’s what the headscarf is for.
Love the lighting! Looking forward to more of these two.
Just for the sake of it, what rpg classes you think each main cast character would have?
Just going off vibes, Joyce is a cleric, Dorothy is a wizard, Sal is a fighter, Walky is a wild magic sorcerer, Amber/AG is a barbarian-paladin multiclass, Becky is a bard, and Dina is a Druid (specializes in wild shaping into dinosaurs specifically of course)
Roz for Sorcerer. (Not main cast exactly but too appropriate with Dorothy as a Wizard.)
Ooof, paladin/barbarian? That’s some big MAD. I don’t think anyone has the stats to pull it off and the classes get in each other’s way pretty hard.
Amber gets in her own way pretty hard, so that fits.
Yeah, I was trying to think of a multiclass that’d work but realized it fit better if it didn’t actually? Though I’m sure someone has tried.
Joyce is a Spiritist/Loremaster
Amber is a Fury/Darkblade
Danny is a Chanter/Floralist
Sal is a Fury/Orator/Pilot
Malaya is a Wayfarer/Loremaster
Carla is a Tinkerer/Spiritist
Dorothy is a Gourmet/Orator
Mike is dead
Dina is a Rogue/Entropist
Billie is a Chimerist/Pilot
Lucy is a Dancer/Arcanist/Spiritist
Becky is a Merchant/Symbolist
Elaboration will not occur.
Could you at least say where these come from, i am not familiar
They’re characters from Dumbing of Age.
The classes come from Fabula Ultima.
Thanks for the actual not smart ass answer
Joyce is a paladin, recently respecced into the Oathbreaker subclass.
Amber/AG is 1000% the Vigilante class from Pathfinder 1e. It’s even got the “two personas, one for ordinary social interaction and one for fighting crime” feature.
She might be a monk too, she has a Very hands-on approach when it comes to evil doers.
I’d argue she’s the barbarian. Every fighting kind of thing she’s done has been fueled by pure anger.
Very good point. A cute Chaotic Good Barbarian XD
I remember when I would stay I used to stay up all night on my phone.
Now I can proudly say I only do that once in a while. I value my sleep very much.
If I could absorb self-discipline my life would be at a minimum 37% better than it is
as long as i wake up tomorrow with a level of motivation i have never once displayed in my life, i’m pretty sure i can turn things around!
If I can wake up with that level of motivation, I might as well put it off until next week. With that much motivation, that’ll be plenty of time.
I mean, it works for plants…
stay back or you might get schlorped
I am weirdly uncomfortable with having seen Asma without her hijab.
Like, she’s a fictional character and *of course* she doesn’t wear it when sleeping so naturally in her room she’s not wearing it, but it feels like a lot more of a personal violation than, say, seeing Joyce in a bra.
(I am not saying the depiction was wrong, immoral, or anyone else should share or act on this discomfort, just putting it out for consideration)
It may depend on what sex you are and your upbringing. Women’s hair. Once upon a time it was ankles, such that even furniture items had their ‘feet’ covered.
Gender, yes, upbringing no. It’s not about prudery as such.
The thing that bugs me is knowing that Asma would object to a random man seeing her without her hijab; it feels like a major violation to me.
What I cannot readily reconcile is, what’s different about Asma-without-hijab that *feels* wrong, which doesn’t bother me about Joyce-without-shirt? Or even, hypothetically, Joyce topless – which isn’t shown but doesn’t bother me as a thing.
There’s a lot of cultural stuff to be considered; I think maybe part of it is that while I know a reasonable amount regarding Muslim culture – albeit not specifically Asma’s – it’s definitely something I consider foreign to me. White Midwestern American culture has plenty of hangups – but I know how to handle the exceptions and violations because it’s *my* culture.
It might be the fact that it isn’t necessarily a sexual thing (like it would be if you were to see Joyce in a bra) but instead something that is cultural, religious, and important to Asma that makes you feel more uncomfortable. Much like if you were to accidentally peek in on a private and intimate moment that’s not quite sexual. Like, say somebody is paying respects to a dead loved one and you walk in them. It’s an emotional thing you’ve walked in on without asking the person and so you feel discomfort and shame.
Like sexual things might be a bit more desensitized (this comic has had the women in their panties at points pretty much from the beginning I think) whereas seeing Asma without her hijab is a completely new thing to contend with. Also disclaimer cause like Hasufin, I’m not saying it is wrong or immoral to depict this, I’m not of that culture and do not feel comfortable making that call, I’m just spitballing reasons why this feels more ‘wrong’ than seeing undies.
I mean a couple of people have been sexualizing it in the comments, like the “more naked than any Slipshine” take from yesterday.
wow, that’s gross
Get U.S. whitebred folk to act normal when a Muslim is on screen
challenge level: impossible (-_-)
If it bothers you that you have seen Asma’s hair when she wouldn’t want you to, but it doesn’t bother you that you have seen Joyce in a bra when she wouldn’t want you to, that suggests you are placing Asma’s concerns on a higher moral plane than Joyce’s. Why that would be I couldn’t tell you, as I do not think there is or should be a moral difference.
I think it’s because most people are pretty desensitized to nudity/underwear and especially in this comic strip are desensitized to such subjects.
I agree! I feel fine for me personally because I’m a woman and have seen hijabi women’s hair before, but it makes me a little uncomfortable that everyone can see it. But she’s a fictional character! It should be fine!
Fictional character. Just like god.
I’m not bothered at all.
Would love to hear Muslim traders weighing in on this. So far all the comments about it have pretty clearly come from well-meaning non-Muslim readers who don’t know what to feel but are pretty sure we should be feeling something.
(Also, I don’t think it’s true that Willis “couldn’t get a consensus” on BlueSky about depicting Asma without her hijab, I think the responses they got were pretty consistently “don’t ask BlueSky about this, ask yourself why you’re trying to depict a Muslim character when you know so little about Islam; don’t you have any friends you can ask? And if not, why is that?”
I sure hope the intervening time has been spent addressing at least the first issue and learning more independently and getting a sensitivity reader (since making new friends is hard on a deadline).)
*readers not traders. Autocorrect is so much worse now, thanks AI lol
yeah I can see how it’d be (at least in part) informed by disproportionate prompts from students who use AI to cheat on their history homework, go fucking figure 9-9
Oh, autocorrect and like grammarly are both messed up specifically because their stupid AI is trained to consider prevalence proof. If a misspelling is common enough, AI-influenced spellcheck will literally suggest misspellings now. It’s great. /s
My understanding is that Willis does have a sensitivity reader, and that the fact they held back the kiss strip from them is why it turned out the very unfortunate way that it did?
Yes, but I meant a sensitivity reader specifically for this sort of thing. Not all readers are gonna know all arenas.
Li’s comment: On the other hand, is it reasonable to ask your Muslim friend to speak for all Muslims? Asking on social media allows people to respond only if they want to, but runs the risk of a biased response, and certainly less of the ‘meh, whatever’ type response.
As for depicting a Muslim character, well, if the ‘dominant’ culture doesn’t who does? Was there not criticism for lack of this type of diversity? Is it not informative that not wearing it among women or in the family/at home is usual?
In fact, given the *lack* of response from Muslim readers, either they don’t feel safe responding (our fault), or they don’t feel particularly strongly, or a 3rd thing that I haven’t thought of.
Look, imma just say it.
Whitebred folk tend to be weird on the matter precisely because of how often Muslims are just “other” to them, this apparent hesitation and fear of offense being the start and end of their anti-racist praxis per-say is a tell tale sign on how little they’ve actually socialized with Muslims, if at all.
I met Lur (who’s Hijabi) here in the comments, and she had this to say on the matter:
“In the age of internet, living somewhere with a predominantly white Christian population is no excuse for not having non-white or Muslim (or other belief systems) friends.
If you still somehow have no Muslim friends? (Muslim/non-white/etc., i’m just sticking to the main matter)
Then usually what that says about you is that you probably haven’t made an effort to be a safe person for them.
Like there’s a LOT of people on the internet, odds that you haven’t engaged with any of them are rare, if you haven’t made any Muslim friends over the internet, well… that means that either you are subconsciously avoiding them, or they are consciously avoiding you.”
… or you could be like me, and the number of friends you have – on the Internet or otherwise – are countable on two or possibly one hand(s).
I don’t get out much.
Yup, just checked my list of people to contact in the event of my death, and there are just nine names on it. And if I’m honest, I’m only in regular contact with about half of them. Ironically, that’s mostly the ones I haven’t ever met face to face. (The rest, I went to college with.)
There used to be a couple more, but they’re dead now. Happens as you get older.
yeah as an autistic person who has trouble socializing, I GET that there’s a difference between not having a lot of POC friends, and just not having a lot of friends in GENERAL
heck I actually asked Willis about how difficult it was to actually socialize with Muslims within his own neighborhood b/c of the caveats of living in a red state, etc
turns out, the school he sends his kids to is 20% Muslim students, and even recognizes Eid as an official holiday — but he says he doesn’t really talk to people or get out much
and like, VALID
and like
for the time being, for Willis to write a story that accounts for blindspots like this is something he just can’t do *completely* on his own without the help of a sensitivity reader or otherwise — and that’s OKAY
I have long accepted that socially progressive causes will ALWAYS be at this natural disadvantage to conservative ones, in that
it will ALWAYS take a relatively big amount of time and effort to be factually and morally right for the sake of better informed public/people, better decisions and policy for a more fair and equitable society to happen
by contrast, it will always take a relatively small amount of time and effort to remain wrong, but be satiated with quippy rhetoric and thought-terminating clichés which allow one to feel “informed enough” and absolve their guilt regardless of what is actually true and we need to understand for a better society
I mean, I’ve got Arabic neighbors – I think they’re probably Muslim, but can’t say for sure – but even if I weren’t autistic, it’d be hard to make friends with them, because they barely speak English and I don’t speak their language at all.
I’m kind of friendly with the Sikh gentleman down the street, but in practice that mostly means we nod at one another when encountering one another in public.
Y’know, I don’t actually know the religious affiliation of just about anyone on my Internet friends lists, so I can’t say if I have any specifically Muslim friends or not. I’m basically indifferent to religion and didn’t realize I was supposed to be keeping track of other people’s unprompted.
Yeah, I only know the religions of a few of my friends, and they tend to be the sort who bring it up unprompted (not evangelizing but because it’s also part of their culture heavily and impacts plans, etc)
Thank you for passing it along.
Well I live in an actual Muslim country where Islam is the state religion (well ‘religion of the federation” as per the constitution) and while I’m not Muslim my comment is that there’s what is tolerated by people in real life and what is tolerated in media that may draw the attention of religious authority on the grounds of moral policing and making examples of artists and creators to enforce a atmosphere of self censorship.
Hi Muslim commenter here! Mainly haven’t commented because I am not hijabi and did not grow up wearing a hijab, and so anything I would say about the topic would only come from a slightly more informed place of conjecture. The only meaningful bit of 2¢ I can give is that contextually there is nothing happening in the last strip that would frame Asma not having her hijab on as anything but naturalistic. It is as neutral as neutral goes (waking up in the morning to get ready), versus a hypothetical version of that same strip where the subtext frames Asma as trapped/stuck/etc. because of her hijab (and on a wider whole, her Muslim Identity).
But also straight up I am trying to comment less whenever like, any kind of dialogue happens in the comments (I.e is this specific depiction of a muslim character doing [x] written by someone who isn’t muslim proper/acceptable/problematical/etc.) simply because I very much do not want to do that! It is exhausting!
Putting aside the fact that I am one person whose relationship to my own religion + religious identity do not and should not be the objective standard of “the Muslim-American perspective”, there is a level of emotional labor that happens when your ability to inform a well meaning but ignorant majority is *expected* more than it is welcomed. I do not want to expend myself spending time on this impossible task, especially when the negative tension in the comments section in relation to it’s Muslim characters has unsafe enough at times that actively spending more than 2 minutes commenting on anything would have been at the detriment of my own mental health.
I don’t think I would have worded things as directly as NGZP has, (although I do think if you aren’t Muslim you have a responsibility to show that are safe to be around, bare minimum), but broadly I do encourage that you develop a sense of active curiosity to answer these questions by yourself, instead of staying in a state of self-aware ignorance. Ad hoc just talk to us! Treat us like people you *could* end up being friends with, instead of this nebulous other, but short of that I encourage people to engage with Muslim/SWANA media and writing more, both the academic and the pop culture stuff. Take a minute and listen, to our words, our music, our comments on funny webcomics about silly teens. It is easy to stay ignorant about Muslim/SWANA culture and issues because there is little social punishment in the west for doing so, which is why the best thing you can do is reject that impulse. This is all I will say for now, short of any continued conversations about this comment.
Also just wanna make this clear, this is not a callout towards anyone on this thread! These are thoughts that I’ve been having as the wider conversation around how this comic writes its Muslim characters (and how the readers react to those conversations) continues to persist.
Hey, thank you for writing all this out even when you were inclined not to. I think it’s great that you’ve been protecting and preserving your mental health in general, and I hope it’s helping lots.
sorry to hear this place is so taxing on your mental health, taking a break from here is MORE than valid
glad you were able to offer this perspective regardless,
re: “there is a level of emotional labor that happens when your ability to inform a well meaning but ignorant majority is *expected* more than it is welcomed”
this is literally part of what I was talking about (well, what Lur told me) earlier,
to treat a person of color like they’re supposed to be some kind of walking history museum or something for the sake of convenience or something
is still racism, period
Nymph + NGPZ thank you both. Trust that the impulse to ignore my boundaries and get into internet fights was there, but shoutout to my friends for helping me through when the private griping was getting a little too into self destructive territory. It also helps that I’ve fully embraced the fact that I could and should save my hot takes for my tumblr, where any fights that could hypothetically happen is at least on my turf.
Hey, I’m sorry, my comment very much was not meant to be calling on Muslim readers to sound off. It’s just been a couple of days of what really seems to be just clueless non-Muslims pondering out loud amongst ourselves about whether or not this was wrong.
Looking up information is ALSO good. Folks who know Muslim opinions on these matters sharing what they know is also good! It definitely isn’t anyone’s responsibility to answer.
I should have phrased my comment differently. I was in a rush, but that’s no excuse, no one made me rush but me.
Hey Li, just know that yr good! Like I said I didn’t intend to have my comment be a callout as much as it is a reaction to the kinds of conversations that happen in here now that the Muslim DOA cast is getting some more spotlight.
If anything I appreciated that your first response was to take note that making any kind of definitive statement about the cultural expectations of an infamously misrepresented and misunderstood demographic based off vibes would be sketch.
Thank you. Both for speaking up and for the kind words.
Just, yeah, I absolutely did phrase the first bit badly ❤️
I’ve always appreciated your comments but also fully respect the… exhaustion part. I hope your time spent taking a step back is good for you, that you’re able to recharge (for your own sake!!! not for ours!!!), and most of all that you stay safe out there. May we all stay safe out there these days, heh.
Also I feel more able to speak up about Jewish issues bc I’ve done some research and some listening and have wound up with a bunch of Jewish mutuals. Obviously high time I step up efforts to research and listen to Muslim folks. YouTube is an easy place to start!
Hava Nagila! ^-^
also, re:YouTube, I’d personally skip that site, as of recent their algorithm has basically been, “oops, all provocative clickbait”. not fun :/
Oh I do not pay any attention to what YouTube recommends and I’ve got my watch history turned off to make it harder for them >> but I figure it’ll be easy to find a list of recommended creators on Tumblr and then from there find people to watch & follow on BlueSky & stuff.
I try to refer to literature and movies as much as I can, simply because trying to find videos on Youtube about this kind of thing can be SO vast and overwhelming, but I can at least recommend TWO YouTube videos off the top of my head that I think rule lmfao.
We Are Lady Parts & We Are Shattering Stereotypes by Yhara Zayd (EXCELLENT video by an excellent film essayist, would absolutely recommend her channel on the whole)
Orientalism: Desert Level Music vs Actual Middle-Eastern Music by Farya Faraji
Big disclaimer though; I do NOT recommend Farya Faraji’s Orientalism Part Two, both because I haven’t seen it all the way through (and thus cannot vouch for it the same way I can for part 1) and because the first part is too “I’m not like those other overly sensitive blue hair pronoun woke Arabs online I’m rational” shit going on in the first 12+ minutes for me to want to finish it, but goes to show the strength of part 1 that I’m still recommending that people check that original video out lol.
Oh, thank you! Going to tumblr was expressly to avoid asking you for more labor today but I super appreciate it. 🫂 And I promise it wouldn’t just be YouTube 🙂
Neither I nor anyone on BlueSky that I saw said anything about using your Muslim friends as free beta readers, Thing2. Willis not having any Muslim friends is a separate but dovetailing issue. Having diverse friends just naturally expands the types of stories one wants to tell.
I know one of you did it. Don’t do it again.
Did what?
The one who did it knows what it was. I’m not gonna put up with it.
Look, I said I’m SORRY I ate your gravatar, okay? You don’t need to make it a public issue.
I’m running out of them. You think these things grow on trees?
…wait, shit, I literally did think that.
I just want to know one thing…
did it at least taste good?
It wasn’t me, and that’s the only important thing.
Angie seems pretty chill so far. I like her.
I don’t want to study. I just want to put the book under my pillow at night and absorb the wisdom.
Comment section has been quiet the last couple days… TOO quiet…
DOROTHY/JOYCE PAGE TOMORROW!!!
Well, fuck.
I’d take another big ol’ dollop of this absolutely nothing over seeing those two horny idiots again.
Frankly these two pages of basically nothing have moved the plot/story further ahead than most of the Doyce strips.
jesus christ
i can’t believe my job now is unreporting threads of this stuff every single morning of people saying this stuff to me, forever
just a new part of my morning routine
because apparently i have absolutely no self respect, maybe some sort of humiliation kink, i dunno
All I’m saying is, people might be less eager to call Dojoycerothy boring if you wrote a storyline about them committing some kind of felony together, like a little small murder or two. I’m not telling you how to do your job, though.
Honestly if they suddenly went Thelma and Louise I’d suddenly be their number one fan
I’m sorry that the last few weeks/months of discourse have been so frustrating for you, and I’d like the opportunity to say that in spite of the often sharp criticism I’ve made towards some of your storytelling decisions with regards to Dororthy/Joyce and the circumstances surrounding their kiss, I have immense respect for you as a creative and a cartoonist. I’ve been following your work since I was in middle school – and apologies for making you feel old there – and you have had an outsized influence on my own creative pursuits. Something I don’t think critics of the last few storylines have said enough is that I love your work, and any criticisms I make come from the place of that love.
The containment thread emerged as an effort to turn down the temperature of the comment section by isolating the kevtching to a single space, and I apologize if the effect of that has become a source of stress for you. Out of respect for you and your work, I’m perfectly happy to cut it out to save you that stress. I will say that I don’t approve of the people who have used it to insult you personally, or to crow endlessly about how they’re just about to quit the strip, any day now, they swear, or especially who use it as cover for actual factual bigotry, but I get how it can all blend together for someone who has to moderate all this.
I hope you’re able to have a more pleasant day, and that the upcoming holidays are relaxing and enjoyable for you. You more than deserve it.
I’ll second that, honestly. I’m not going to be as good at saying it as Dot, but ultimately I’m here because Willis has been a quality source of entertainment for twenty years!
Honestly, I can name exactly two webcomics I’ve commented on when I’ve been disappointed by a turn, and in both cases they’re the ones I bought the books for and followed from the start. Might not count for much, but I don’t much feel like it’s worth the bother to complain about things that haven’t set a high bar to begin with.
Got to admire an artist that not only still has a comment section but actually interacts with it. Don’t listen to us, we’re all quite insane.
heck, Willis really only keeps this place around because he needs an easy way to let people know if he’s being tonedeaf in his comic
if he were any other webcomic author, he would have burned also this place to the ground for obvious reasons
Sí, really sorry ya have to put up with this now.
as much as you can screw up sometimes I still love the hell out of your comic! 🥺
Like bruh ya made a Dina plush. It’s not like I can stay mad at you forever 😭🦖
Re: hater thread, maybe hiring a mod or two for the comments to take the load off wouldn’t be such a bad idea? Just a thought, like at this point there’s no way this kind of job can be done by a single author anymore
I do think some of it is a direct consequence of us convincing ourselves “oh, Willis doesn’t have time to comment as much these days, they’re probably also not reading as much, so whatever I say here, it’s not like I’m saying it where they can hear me”.
shh, no spoilers 😁
oh no
angie is me and i am her
yay, new char²
I like these two, they seem to have a chill roommate dynamic.
You can say that again.
Comment so nice it posted twice
I like these two, they seem to have a chill roommate dynamic.
Angie… Oh No… She is Cute, Adorable even
Don’t know if I’d go that far, but she’s definitely relatable.
apropos of nothing, I used the panels of her last strip to make an animated GIF hehehe ^^
https://bsky.app/profile/ngpz.bsky.social/post/3m5xpjvq27c2o