Discussion (179) ¬
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Alejandra Caraballo @esqueer.net ⋅ 3h
David M Willis! @damnyouwillis.bsky.social ⋅ 8d
David M Willis! @damnyouwillis.bsky.social ⋅ 8d
Phil Lewis @phillewis.bsky.social ⋅ 1dDavid M Willis! @damnyouwillis.bsky.social ⋅ 8d
David M Willis! @damnyouwillis.bsky.social ⋅ 8d
Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg @theradr.bsky.social ⋅ 21d
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it me
Which part? Out of all of the things shown here, dissociating and fighting criminals would probably be the least worrisome.
…yes.
Nah. Coming out of a shell by swearing in the presence of your parent? No big thing. Normal, even. I’m not being sarcastic. Amber’s mom is clearly feeling in a bit of a tough spot in panel 4 – but in fact, Amber’s actions are pretty darn mild, and a good way to blow off steam.
I think it’s the post-traumatic depression implied by the line that Pablo is reacting to
same
yeah… I mean, the “it will catch up to me later” part. Not the disassociating and fighting criminals part part. Or the stabbing part. Apparently, my life is boring.
I can relate to the “it will catch up to me later” part and the dissociating part. I don’t fight crime or stab people. It might only be a matter of time for that last one, though.
*BAMF!*
Oops, I’ve misread it as “hit me”
I’m out ->[]
I respect Richard for trying
As much as one can respect Richard at least
More than Richard respects women.
Respect-ed, women, we can now add semi-honestly. Weather or not his change-of-outlook lasts, at the moment, he’s committed to it, and so his actions in the present can be distinguished from his actions of the past. We can all go back to giving him shit when it he inevitably does something to deserve it.
…I was wondering when it was gonna end.
86% of existential dread is experienced while staring at your bedroom ceiling.
Put a cute cat poster up there or something, it does wonders.
Good, but how do I cover it up for when I have company?
Asking for a friend.
If your company winds up staring at your bedroom ceiling, I think it’s safe to say that their visit already went pretty well.
My friend want to know if “Hang in there” is appropriate…reading material for their guest in such a situation.
Under those circumstances, maybe this would be more appropriate.
…First time in history anyone described that movie as “appropriate”, I’ll bet.
I had a poster of the Alien from A L I E N up there.
(There’s a longer story behind that!)
I stuck glow-in-the-dark stars over my bed in the shape of Cassiopeia. It’s no kitten picture, but it’s probably a little less work to explain, and I find it incredibly comforting to look up and see a familiar constellation.
Mind you, that it fends off existential dread isn’t specifically why I did it. I imagine if that was my intent, I would have used Orion.
Orion would be my choice too. There’s something weirdly reassuring about seeing the big guy up there at night.
He’s just so instantly recognizable. And he has a sword and shield and everything you need to fend off the doubts.
*finds those three stars in the sky* “Yep, there’s his pelvis.”
Those three not-quite-aligned stars was the second thing I learned in the night sky.
*ahem*
‘Sword’.
Riiiiight.
If your present company isn’t all, “Ooh! Cute cat poster!” then maybe you should still be looking for other company.
If they don’t read DoA, then just tell them, “I like cats.”
if they do read DoA, then you won’t have to explain.
Cover it up? What the Hell for? Consider: you’ve wooed your guest into your bed. During a break in the action, the friend looks up and sees a poster urging him or her to “Hang in there.” Seriously, isn’t this the message you want your friend to get?
Well, I was thinking 8f the proximity to her loft bed too. The ceiling is maybe 3 feet overhead, and a poster could be overpowering.
And I know what it’s like to have to not hit one’s head on the ceiling in such a space.
Approximately 19% of all made up statistics are accurate to within 4% of the true statistic.
I had a friend in primary school who had a picture of Antilope Canyon there, that looked like a rock giant pissing light. I find that really weird for a 8-9 year old, looking back.
You know, Dr Dick is a medical professional. Maybe he can refer Amber to a therapist.
They are at Indiana University. There is a first rate med school there. There should be plenty of therapists there as professors and researchers, as well as future ones as students. (Then again, …)
IU does have a staff of therapists. I got a pretty good one but I know several others who did not have positive experiences, so I guess it’s hit or miss. Still something she should give a shot though.
I hope he isn’t the one to do so; she’ll never want his advice. But yes, that has needed to happen for a long long time. I’m not sure whom she’d listen to.
I hadn’t thought of that, but now that you’ve mentioned it, I really hope he does. Some of this is from identifying too much with Amber’s parental issues and their negative effects on her, but… yeah, the longer you go without help about this stuff, the worse it gets sometimes. I really hope we’ll get to see her get help for it by the end of DoA, because she deserves to be happy and I feel like that could really help her in getting there.
Yeaahhhh, but not all medical professionals are great at this sort of thing. You’d like to think they’d be better than average, but even that I’m not sure about.
Yeah, he’s a bone doctor. I could refer Amber to a therapist as well as he can. Or I could if I existed in her fictional reality. Damn fourth wall.
Obligatory “yes, yes he is”
And Amber is a difficult case. A lot tougher than the difficulty transitioning to college that is the bread-and-butter of most university counseling. She likely needs a specialist, perhaps even someone with experience with DID, if she opens up enough for her initial therapist to figure out that’s what’s going on.
A what?
A “thera–” … that’s not a real word!
You want Amber to see ‘the rapist’?
Wouldn’t she just stab him?
I mean, I suppose it might be cathartic…
Sometimes you can feel your life do a cut away.
Aw, I really like supportive kvelling Stacey. ^^
She’s a good mom.
whoa. she said the D word. (although I think the correct spelling is “dissociate”, I get it wrong all the time too. so does my therapist.)
Both are correct actually!
well look at that, you’re right. dissociate is just shorter and a bit more common overall. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36416/dissociate-vs-disassociate
the annoying thing is, I remember reading that “dissociate” was correct last time I googled this, and I’ll never be sure whether the search results changed or my mind is fabricating details again. :/ I don’t like that it can do that now.
If it helps any, I remember it going along the lines of “‘dissociate’ is the right term, to the point where you will be marked wrong if you use ‘disassociate’ in an essay or on a test, even if your spellchecker says it’s the correct word” thing from school (I had a seminar in psychology as it relates to literature, with a heavy emphasis on the actual medical science, heh). Sooo… I’m going to cast a vote for the search results (and potentially the actual preferred usage) changing.
The results likely changed with time.
so…Amber and Joe might end up being brother and sister….that will be a new relationship for both of them.
“Disassociate” – she recognizes it, finally. Does this mean she’s getting some therapy?
Eh, I know a girl in high school who struggled a lot with anxiety and would talk to me about her experiences disassociating, but she wasn’t getting help at all. From this we know that she can label her experiences, but I don’t know that that translates to seeing a professional.
I’d bet she just did her own research online. The comic mentions when people are finally in therapy. (Iirc: Ruth just started and is chagrined to find it helpful, Billie is scheduled to begin soon, and Dorothy is checking in healthily after seeing AG stab a dude.)
(–er, after seeing Amber stab a dude. You know what I mean.)
Yeah, that’s my thinking too. As swell as it’d be if she were seeing a therapist, I don’t think her character’s there yet.
yup. let’s hope she finds some of the good resources that are actually helpful. (aaand now I’m imagining her finding this forum, lol)
Acknowledging a problem isn’t the same, close, or even necessarily peripherally related to fixing it.
It’s hard to start fixing a problem before you acknowledge it, though, so… progress?
I’m not even entirely sure that Amber acknowledged that it IS a problem. That it is, yes. That it is a problem…. not so much?
True, but acknowledging it is more than she’s ever done before, so I’m hoping it means she’s making progress. Be it on her own or with a therapist.
Going off the rails on a crazy chain.
I’ve listened to preachers, listened to foooools
All aboard! Hahahahaha!
It’s safe to say those mental wounds are definitely not healing.
I kind of relate to Amber right now, but in a bit of an inverse way– I’m currently in a good mood, but it’s still driven by apathy. So life’s pretty enjoyable right now, but I also know that this mood is going to end. And it’s gonna suck. <3
If it sucks it’s not apathy, it’s depression.
Trust me amber, I’m currently going through a series of ups ands downs with feelings that have very similar ‘no fucks given’ in between moments. It always catches up with you, your inner shame and guilt is never done eating away at your insides sometimes you’re just to numb to feel it or it’s preparing the next course.
At night I wake up with the sheets soakin’ wet
And a freight train runnin’ through the middle of my head–Bruce Springsteen
Sometimes it’s like someone took a knife, baby, edgy and dull
And cut a six-inch valley through the middle of Ry’s skull…
[Insert phoned-in running gag here.]
When I wake up with the sheets soaking wet, I’m typically too embarrassed to want to sing about it.
Thanks for sharing.
Amber being open about dissociating, owning up to herself (relatively) without shame or self-castigation, and referencing her time as Amazigirl seems like…a reasonable next step in the healing process??
Hmm. I guess time will tell. It does tend to catch up with one in the short term, though, of course.
yeah… I think stacy’s right about it being healthy, even if she’s only right by accident. Amber’s at least got the guts to face her issues – she just probably doesn’t have any of the relevant skills for healing them yet. :/
I don’t think she’s admitting to being AG. As the readers, we know what she’s talking about, but from the perspective of the adults, she’s talking about Ryan and, much earlier, Sal.
“Amber, they might be giants.”
(god I always forget how tall joe is)
(also I hope I wasn’t the only one startled by the upcoming faz is great storyline)
And what are we going to do unless they are?
Me: “Faz is great? Willis wouldn’t do that, whatever could passchendale be talking about?”
Me, 2 seconds later: ” AAAAAaaaAaaAAAholyshitohgodnotfaz”
Me: Wow, this storyline’s going to end in 11 days? Wonder what Willis has planned next.
Me, two minutes later: AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
aaaand now it’s time for the Anxiety Hangover. fuck I hate those.
(but hey, I think I might *maybe* be over the worst of my antidepressant withdrawal? unless I jinx it now. I’m glad mine’s at least *planned* and intententional.)
Amber need some parental guidance. Unfortunately, she’s in the wrong comic for that sort of thing.
I mean, we know there’s going to be trouble when Joe is the most grounded, level headed person in a storyline
HELL yeah new edgy Amber….oh.
Just needs more fiber in her diet.
…I’m with Stacy. I THINK it’s healthy. I think…
I wouldn’t say it’s actually healthy.
It’s one small step closer to healthy though.
But I’m really happy about Stacy being able to be proud of Amber – and to be able to brag about it. They are worth it.
It’s nice to see that Amber’s aware of some of her issues, but she still should see a therapist.
So this.
emotional waves can be hard to surf through and one slip means you are stuck under the water.
Well, with enough practice (and very good luck) it’s sometimes possible to recover. Never exactly easy, though, afaik, and that sort of mental surfing burns spoons like crazy.
Take some time to think of just
Flexibility, love and trust…
Boy, do I miss that show. –Hey, did you know that new episodes were released today, but only on the CN app? I didn’t until just now!!
seriously? omg. I heard nov. 20th was the official date, but, my only legal access is through Google so fuck knows when they’ll update. I might have to bring a usb stick to my friend’s house, I bet they already downloaded it
amber stop being relatable
(jk don’t stop, i like seeing my own issues being shown in the comic, it makes me feel not so alone)
Cue anxiety attack in 3… 2…
I think that Amber is in the middle of an anxiety attack in the final panel. I don’t know how functional (if at all) she’ll be tomorrow!
The news today trumps the dressing room peeper. We need a ban on pedophiles. No more!
Just in case no one saw the puns…
The news today Trump’s the dressing room peeper. We need a Bannon pedophiles. No Moore!
I was trying to figure out if you meant “trumps” or “Trump is”, but I didn’t consider the possibility of intentional puns. Probably because the subject is so icky I try to avoid thinking about it longer than necessary.
Although somehow I spent way too much of my shower time wondering how many pumpkins this Halloween had trump faces. Or Hitler faces. And whether it would be amusing to combine guy Fawkes day with rememberance day and burn a Nazi.
Rememberance day seems a hell of a lot more important this year.
My boyfriend had a trick or treater dressed as a Nazi. He was like 12 and it was a crappy costume so we’re hoping it was a 12 year old who was either trying to be edgy and snuck it on without his parents knowing or he doesn’t know much about Nazis and so doesn’t understand.
Years ago there was a controversy where Hetalia cosplayers dressed as nazis–I’ve never touched the series so idk if that’s canon or just kids on the internet being edgy, but that’s another option.
Nazis filtered through Japanese perspective. Those people seem to have a somewhat hazy understanding of what Nazis did… then again considering their Unit 731…
Or, maybe Dracula wasn’t evil enough and he wanted to dress as a real monster..
heh. I had my own little anxiety-hangover over this comment and what level of stupid it was and what kind of explosion of outrage would happen… and there wasn’t any.
I still feel like I don’t know nearly enough about what rememberance day means to various people beyond the basic literal stuff. war is bad, nazis are worse, lots of people died for us to have peace/freedom/etc…
my brain feels like it’s full for now, though. and I still haven’t figured out if there’s something important I wanted to do today. actually I think the more important thing was to not stress about whether I’m forgetting things, but, what if I’m forgetting something?
*facepalm*
Noooooo! Her invincibility shirt wore off! Amber is vulnerable again!
Yeah, that’s what happens and, of course, it had to happen on a Sunday night so poor Amber will go into the next week with little or no sleep!
When I disassociate, I just watch in helpless terror as my body continues doing what it normally would, wondering who’s controlling it and when they will strike. Some people just get all the nice psychoses.
Oh…oh Stace, you definitely try. You just…don’t really understand psychology.
Willis, put “Sometimes I disassociate and fight criminals” on a shirt and I will buy it.
Funnily enough Batman would probably wear “Sometimes I disassociate and attend parties as a rich playboy”
“Your civilian identity is the real mask.” — Batman to Tim Drake.
“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. – Wayne Gretsky” – Michael Scott
whered amber get that shirt? its awesome
Tchoo Tchoo mofo
Out of curiosity, what’s dissociation or disassociation? I’ve searched it up and the sites I found are too full of psychology jargon for me to understand.
I’m no psychologist, but based on what I read in the past I think disassociation refers to a frame of mind where a person believes that they’re not really responsible for their actions. They might believe they have an addiction or a compulsion where one doesn’t actually exist, that the victims of their abuse (in abusive relationships) were “asking for it” because they displeased them or made mistakes or they’re “just trying to correct them”. In rarer cases, they might develop a split personality or believe that some external force (like a possessing spirit, a werewolf side, or G-men) are what compels them do these actions.
Amber’s case being obviously the rarer split personality version.
oh dear, Zaxares, I think I know what website you got that really twisted definition from. it is very very wrong (which is extra awful because the site had some great resources for other things iirc)
anyways… what it *actually* is… is a desperate survival skill that can really mess up your brain in a variety of ways. Valerie’s explanation is a good one for the underlying “what’s happening” when it’s first triggered. as for diagnoses, there’s DID and OSDD (where your mind divides to the point you develop multiple “personalities” and/or memory barriers, and thanks to the memory issues it can take a long time to discover unless the time loss is the blatant “waking up elsewhere” type), BPD (which has a bunch of other unfortunate symptoms like impulsivity and anger issues but does include some dissociative things), Dissociative/Derealization disorder (which, iirc, involves persistent feelings of derealization or depersonalization without the memory ), and probably others I’m not aware of. (CPTSD might have dissociative elements? or maybe it’s just comorbidity, or that I was reading about them at the same time)
There’s a lot of research that still needs to be done, and a lot of shitty stereotypes from hollywood, so it’s really hard to make definitive claims on a lot of details, but it is a thing that happens to people, and not a choice (although sometimes people can learn tricks for bringing a specific alter to the ‘front’; some of mine respond to songs).
of course, as with pretty much any invisible illness, some manipulative shithead can try and *pretend* to have it for evil reasons, and occasionally there’ll be someone who both legitimately has it and is also a complete asshole. people can really suck. :/
Disassociation, from what I’ve gathered, is when a person (generally one who has been through trauma) more-or-less leaves their body in times of stress. For example, a person who’s been abused as a child might disassociate around their parents in an attempt to avoid being hurt, because “they” are not the ones their parents will abuse.
In some cases, it can cause you to even sort of forget your own name. I had that happen a few times as a kid/teenager. It’s a weird subconscious thing where you’re doing -such- a good job at being “out” of your body that your own name sounds wrong sometimes.
So basically it’s a type of survival tactic.
Does it then cause people to experience things differently when they disassociate or do they still feel whatever’s happening to their body?
My understanding is that they sort of do, but they feel like they’re watching it happen from a distance, as if it were happening to someone else. You can see how this might be a coping mechanism for someone who is powerless to prevent whatever abuse is going on.
that describes something like depersonalization or… I forget the word for when an alter is aware like that but not in control, personally I call it the “peanut gallery”
it’s also possible for alters to completely lose awareness of the outside world – most DID-ish people I’ve heard from say it’s like they fell asleep, some say they have an inner ‘world’ alters can retreat to and do things there.
And then there are in-between experiences, like when an alter has a patchy partial memory of what happened, or gets a summary of it from another alter (which is very useful if you need to know what happened to protect yourself but need to not have any of the actual memories because they’re too traumatic).
…and then there’s derealization, which is really trippy – it feels like you’re not real, which… I don’t know if I can explain any better than that, really, because it’s such an odd sensation. I got a heavy dose of it when I discovered that earplugs amplify sound inside the mouth – at a dentist appointment. Back when sound was still a lot of pain (hence wearing the earplugs in the first place). I wish I’d realised that taking them out would be a lesser pain and stopped the dentist to do that, but I just kept retreating and waiting for it to be over. :/ I was kinda floaty-light afterwards, like walking through a dream, and my thinking was foggy and confused, and I’m a bit disappointed that nobody noticed anything was wrong even when I told the secretary “I don’t feel real”. I just kinda sat there for a while until it was time to go sit at the bus stop instead. I’m glad I was still functional enough to do all the right things to get me home, because I had very little idea of whether I was doing things right until it wore off.
huh. maybe that’s the source of my strange behaviour when I’ve been injured too. there was one time I crashed my bike (into… nothing?) on a campus street and insisted on sitting down right where the bike had fallen for like a minute, and the other cyclists had to just go around me (luckily there weren’t many cars there). … or maybe that was shock. there are so many weird ways brains can malfunction.
This explanation is correct Zaxares’. It’s a form of mentally checking out that ranges all the way from daydreaming through feeling like you’re witnessing events from outside your body through full amnesia.
*Valerie’s explanation is correct, *not Zaxares’.
It is a thing that varies between people, but I think it’s pretty much a temporary inability to regard some things as real, to a very varying degree depending on how bad the dissociation is. In my experience it’s less that “things feel fake” and more that “i can’t think about certain things in enough regard to consider them part of my reality, including thinking of them as fake”. Sometimes it happens to such an intense degree that it affects internal aspects of our self instead of just external reality and we pretty much become someone else, like Amazi-Girl.
It can be different across the board, but generally, Valerie’s explanation is correct. Due to a whole Very Tragic Backstory, when I get stressed, I have Three Versions that might respond. One is extremely disassociative, in that I somehow manage to put my anxiety behind a door and can be super-competent and calm. I usually remember this, but it feels like I’m watching another person in my memories. Two is I have an attack or come close to it and become very hyperaware and very stressed. This is completely me, I usually have full memories.
Third is the easiest actually. Sometimes I just plain don’t form memories. I’ll be one place and snap back to somewhere completely different, hours later. I’ve been told I seem somewhat zombie-like during these phases. Thankfully, I’m close enough with the people in my life I can usually just say “The last thing I remember it was 5am, what’s happened?” and someone will usually explain. (No, I don’t have any serious brain damage or a tumor. They’ve checked more than once. It was very unpleasant.) My brain just goes “Welp, this looks unpleasant, time to go on sleep mode”.
But again, the experiences vary from person to person, depending on their individual experiences, traumas, and mental issues.
I think of #1 as my Emergency Backup Personality
“Please state the nature of the mental emergency!”
It’s a lot more pleasant than the “go along to get along” emergency personality that makes me gullible as fuck and happy to help people take advantage of me. :/
I’m glad I don’t get #3 (although someone keeps closing this window lately, wtf, that’s the kind of minor thing it’s almost normal to not remember except that it keeps happening! several times already today, and normally it’s hard to talk myself into closing tabs at all!)
…actually, in my internetting today I came across something saying there’s a type of seizure that looks like what you described for #3. but I guess that’s why they ran all those tests on you.
I don’t think “personality” was quite the right word for what I was thinking of there… maybe “persona”. it’s still mostly the same me, just with different responses. not like how some people have drastically different alters with their own preferences and opinions and so on.
then again, they have different opinions and preferences on how to manage a situation and what’s Not Okay, so maybe it’s only a difference of degree?
I relate so much to this.
so… does Amber went to therapy at some point? or the jargon is just her selfstudy of internet psychology? self-therapy? does it works at all?
As far as we know, no therapy. I’d assume internet research.
I think I remember her saying something about how after the incident at the gas station, her mom wanted to send her to therapy, but her dad said no and signed her up for self-defense classes instead. She may have seen a therapist sometime since then, anyway, but I sort of doubt it.
“I stab people who piss me off, just so you know,” is going to be my new introductory line.
Speaking of something that should be on a t-shirt.
Wonder if Joe will pick up on the “I disassociate and right crime” line and figure out she’s (…was? Guess we’ll see) Amazi-girl.
Fight crime*
I’ve got to stop posting comments in my kindle.
Comments aren’t kindling?
I don’t even remotely understand why, but the autocorrect on Kindle tablets doesn’t seem to understand how English works. It keeps changing correctly spelled words–words it acknowledges as correctly spelled!–to different but similar words, like the time I inadvertently told my friend I’d forgotten she had a “good allergy.” That wasn’t a typo, that was the Kindle keyboard not recognizing that I had indeed intended to type “food”
hmm. my first kindle arrived with a german dictionary because I’d once bought something off amazon.de
then again, “good” is still english, so it sounds like it’s either completely nuts, or is doing the insanely-overzealous-pattern-matching thing that my Android keyboard once had a phase of. it was like it got overtrained and needed to be told “no” a lot until it settled down again.
Crime is a wrong that needs righted…
is this confirmation of DID Amber theory? I know Willis has mentioned trying to decide whether or not to confirm it; weighing bad vs needed rep. I think this is the first mention of dissociation in the comic, so it might be a confirmation?
Well, it definitely means -Amber- is onboard with the DID Amber theory. Whether or not it’s canon… depends on how much you trust Amber’s self-diagnosis
okay okay yeah it pretty much means it’s canon but we’ve also already had a conversation between alters and Amber talking to Danny about getting along with Amazi-girl better lately so if that wasn’t a confirmation…
tfw it catches up to you
I’d like to comment on something not directly related to today’s strip, but very relevant to Willis’ general messaging on sex and relationships. The episode of the TV show “The Orville” I watched last night (Spoilers coming) postulated an aphrodisiac that made people develop an emotional attachment to and engage in intense sex with the person they got it from (by skin contact), even if this was someone they normally would never consider having sex with. I suspect the writers and producers feel they were being progressive because they show a previously heterosexual male having sex with another male, and being OK with this afterwards. The person who is the source of the drug says, IIRC, “The only consequence is . . . people have a lot of great sex . . . and in a few days it wears off”. Consequence-free sex is an adolescent fantasy, and a myth. But what really upsets me is the complete failure to understand the most basic concept of consent. This drug makes people a willing – enthusiastic – participant in sexual activity they wouldn’t otherwise consider, and supposedly all they feel afterwards is mild embarrassment. Apologies to gay readers for reminding them that a lot of people think gay sex is gross, but if such a drug existed, its use would traumatise those whose homophobia was forcibly overridden, when it wore off. Homophobia is irrational, but it exists, and is common. Our society does recognise – grudgingly – that inebriated consent is not genuine consent, and that having sex with an inebriated person is rape. The TV episode depicted three people having sex under the influence of the drug. IMO, all three were raped, though complicated in one case because the other person was not aware of the influence of the drug, and believed the consent was genuine. The real culprit was the source of the drug, but he showed no remorse, nor even awareness that he had done anything wrong. The point of the show seemed to be that if you are induced to WANT the sex, and to enjoy it, there is no harm done. That you might afterwards feel violated seems not to have occurred to the writers/producers.
My apologies for venting at length about this, but it frustrates me to the point I want to scream.
As an addendum, additional apology for focusing on the homosexual rape out of the three depicted. The other two were nominally heterosexual, but every bit as wrong. I was trying not to go on too long, but I think I overdid it.
Haven’t seen it, but yeah, that’s creepy as hell. And doesn’t sound as if it was played that way by the show.
That’s like saying that rape is worse when it happens to men. I don’t see how any PARTICULAR attention is owed to the male rape victim, he gets to be slut shamed now like the women did. Equality…yay? If it traumatized him, he should probably ask himself why that aspect of it traumatized him so much. The issue would really be him questioning his sexuality from then on because this rape was also the best sex he’s ever had. How terribly confusing.
The guy who didn’t know he had drugs on him did not rape anyone because there was no abuse on his end. There was no person forcing themselves on the victim, they were not subjugated or used. It’s the difference between ‘my husband die!’ and ‘you murdered my husband!’
The other two could definitely be rape. If I slip coke or heroin into your drink without you knowing, and you ask to sleep with me, that’s what, sexual assault and poisoning? I’m not sure the sex is the focus any more, but something bad is happening.
The storyline sounds mega-creepy but unfortunately is not uncommon in SF/Fantasy-contexts,
How, in real life, would you see the situation where someone unawares that the other person was on consent-enforcing drugs had sex with them. Shouldn’t that be rated as double rape on the part of the person who provided the drug?
Because, is there anything more creepy than having genuine reason to think your partner consented and then find out they weren’t able to not consent and would never have slept with you if they had had the real
option to say no?
It’s the kind of story that can be done well, intending to raise those creepy concerns, or done poorly to excuse them.
Spider Robinson does it… moderately well, in that it is creepy as fuck and the villain does get caught/killed in the end (I forget which). and the protagonists decide the kindest thing to do with the victims is erase their memories of the whole incident. I can’t remember whether that included the protagonists who were also victims.
oh, and just to throw in some more creepiness… I have had the experience of not knowing I wanted to say no until after the fact, and yeah it’s messed up and those feelings are very complicated. I’m glad I discovered DID resources that helped me have a serious talk with myselves about consent and I’m a lot more careful now that I understand that there’s more than one ‘voice’ I need to consult before consenting to things. :/
Which Spider Robinson was that? I don’t remember it. One of the Callahan tales? Or something else?
I liked Spider, but it’s been a long time since I read anything of his.
it sounds like it was probably Callahan’s Lady.
I’ll concede that the way I wrote my original comment sounded as if I think homosexual rape is worse than heterosexual rape. For the record, I do not.
The case where the male genuinely believed there was consent, but the female’s consent was drug-induced and thus invalid is complex. He had no criminal intent and thus was not committing rape. She did not consent and was therefore raped. This sounds contradictory – and is the sort of conundrum lawyers love – but my belief is that the perpetrator is the guy spreading the drug around. He KNEW what it does to people, but refused to acknowledge that there was anything wrong about what he was doing. This refusal to accept responsibility was supported in the episode in that he was allowed to leave without even criticism, let alone punishment. I see this as promoting an immature attitude to sex in which consent is unimportant, which is why I was so upset.
I mean, as far as ‘does rape need there to be a rapist participating in the act’ goes, imagine two people being forced to have sex at gunpoint by a third person. In this scenario, both participants experience rape and the perpetrator does not participate in the act itself. Pretty clear-cut.
So yeah, a scenario where one person is being raped and the other is innocently clueless and not a rapist kind of makes sense.
That solidly re-affirms my decision to not watch that show. Ugh.
I’d direct you to the TNG episode “The Child” where Troy is impregnated by a non-corporeal space entity with its self. And the ENT Episode “Unexpected” where Trip is told by an Alien that what they’re doing is “a game” and it ends with HIM getting being pregnant. The first was played for Drama the latter was played for comedy. Then on Voyager we find out that Vulcans can spread Pon’Farr to non-vulcans via mind melds.
Yeah The Orville has simply continued a long dark star trek tradition.
I trust the intentions of the people behind TNG, never watched Enterprise and only watched the first couple seasons of Voyager. Plus I was already not a fan of Seth McFarlane or his attitude towards women in general, so hitting that particular gross milestone so early on does not help any.
I don’t care if other people watch it, but I am perfectly happy to be judgemental as fuck and continue not watching it.
aw fuck, I’m not looking forward to that episode. maybe I should skip it
I actually had an experience where someone tried to manipulate me into things the first time I tried MDMA, and although I talked him down to something that wasn’t personally a big deal to me, when I figured out what he’d been *trying* to do later, well, I spent the rest of the night at the harm-reduction tent. (yay safe spaces!) The part that bothered me the most was that I couldn’t remember enough to identify him, so he was probably preying on others afterwards :/ … then again, maybe the other people in his campsite did something about it, I think they noticed something was up afterwards; actually they might have been the ones to suggest I visit the harm-reduction tent.
I’m relieved you got out of that situation safely. From some of your earlier comments, it seems you have had an . . . eventful . . . life. But here you are, able to talk about what happened. I say, good for you.
As for watching the show, there is no violence, no overt coercion. But the drug erases people’s free will, and for me, that IS coercion. The people making the show don’t seem to get that.
I sincerely hope that no-one ever discovers or invents a real aphrodisiac. I have no doubt it would be abused in the way depicted in this TV show, and that a lot of the people doing that would not understand that what they were doing was wrong, just as depicted.
heh, yeah – thankfully there have been plenty of *good* events too. my early/mid 20’s were, overall, pretty damn awesome.
And if the people making the show had understood that, they could do something worthwhile with it. Still creepy, but presented as such.
Yes. In addition to being outraged, I’m disappointed by the missed opportunity.
Honestly it sounds like the person supplying the drug is arguing its not rape if you enjoyed it, combined with believing that raping by means of mind altering drugs is okay as long as they consent while in the altered mindset even if they never agreed to take those drugs in the first place.
No realizing that they were mind controlled would likely be scarring even if not combined with sex.
see, oh, pretty much the entire run of Jessica Jones.
Exactly. That handled the whole basic premise oh so horrifically well.
*Plays Sympathy For The Devil on the in-car stereo*
I find Amber’s phrasing interesting here. “I disassociate and fight criminals”- has she stopped thinking of Amazi-Girl as a separate person?
Not necessarily – remember she’s now stabbed both Ryan and Sal while being Amber.
I’d guess it’s a terminology confusion: there is “I, the persently active alter named Amber” and there is “I, a system containing two alters in one body, also named Amber”. English isn’t exactly made to accomodate dissociative pronoun situations, and the ‘normal’ way to say it is with the ‘I’, so…
Off topic:
I have just finished reading “Sovereign”, April Daniels’ sequel to Dreadnought”. It’s every bit as wonderful as the first book.
A treat for readers of all ages and genders.
Back on topic: I’m going to quote a bit from “Sovereign”.
“Open battle is the most honest relationship you can have with somebody. They want to do something bad. I want to stop them. Whoever is stronger gets what they want. So far, I’m always the one who wins. The bad guys keep getting surprised by that. They know I’m Dreadnought, of course, and they know I’m strong. But I don’t think any of them ever expected that I could reach down into me and pull out the kind of rage that I hit them with.
They see the cute little blond girl and think I don’t have it in me to hurt them. Very quickly they learn better. When I’m in a really good fight, the anger explodes out of me. The battle joy takes me, and it’s the best feeling in the world.”
Amber understands that all too well. And it scares her.
And with that you’ve got my attention *gets ebook*
See, Stacy, the problem here is that you also think being around Richard for any length of time is a good idea. It is not.
Angsteportation powers, activate!
god i struggle to read these sections. Amber acts so much like my abusive ex it literally makes me nauseous