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Isa, Meg
There's ghosts at your heels and fairy tale worlds ahead. What do you do? Jump down the rabbit hole!
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The Otherknown
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Chandra is a 12-year-old accidental time traveler with a reluctant new dad, who happens to be a member of a feared galactic crime syndicate.
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The legendary early-aughts webcomic that inspired a wave of webcomic creators.
Guilded Age
T Campbell, John Waltrip, Florence Machina
Welcome to the saga of the working-class adventurer! Enjoy the complete story with new annotations daily!
Dumbing of Age
David M Willis
Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
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not ‘gone’, but changed. His reference is deeper there-it doesn’t matter if heaven or hell exist, so much as whether one acts as one believes on the subject. There are a lot of faux Christians out there who parse and slice the word of god to suit their own narrow prejudices, but even before she started questioning, Joyce acted with a level of integrity most of the preachers and followers (including her own mother) didn’t. she was “REAL”-she actually practiced the golden rule and practiced what she would preach.
That’s a major difference from the stereotype, and from a lot of people who SAY they believe a thing, but don’t act on it. THey’re ‘fake’, but Joyce was ‘real’ in her deeds.
I would read a 1000-page comic of just Joyce and Joe making out while Amber is aggressively trying to ignore the fact that they’re inviting her to join in in their most seductive manners.
Amber shares a half-bath with Dorothy and Becky. Dorothy would absolutely vacate so Joyce could get to work, but I feel like Becky is a bit of a wild card here. 33% chance she has zero issues, 33% chance she says “Wait until marriage!” no matter what, and 34% chance “Joyce saying “I’m an atheist, God isn’t real, mind leaving the room so I can fuck my boyfriend.” gives Becky a catatonic Joyce-reaction-panel and they just push her out of the room.
Halfway through typing that last sentence, it occurred to me that they could just go to Joyce’s room (Sarah would absolutely bounce upon Joe’s arrival), but the thought of Becky getting a wide-eyed reaction needed to be birthed into the world, assuming Willis hasn’t already beaten me to the punch.
You know, like bumping two dolls together to imitate kissing.
That said, Joyce might actually find bondage quite relaxing. If she can let herself go and relax into it, anyway. A little shibari with no actual limb restraint might be a good place to start.
Yeah, honestly. I wish he’d get with the program already. Why can’t these fictional characters just realize they’re fake and stop playing it up like they were real? So tired of it smh my head.
He’s for sure playing the long game. And by “game” I mean that he’s clearly had real feelings for her since she started texting him in class, but he didn’t get in the way when she was testing the waters with Jacob, he just respected her boundries and looked put for her. Since, he’s worked on himself, something he continues to do so that he can better be there for her. I don’t think they’re getting together right now, but he’s absolutely gonna show her he can be husband material if it’s for her.
They likely are the long game, unless Willis has more twists for us and Joe is definitely interested, but that’s not at all what he’s doing. You’re ignoring his own hang-ups. He’s not trying to show he’s husband material, because he knows he’s not. He knows he’s just like his dad and he’d cheat on her and hurt her, which he couldn’t bear.
I definitely don’t think Joe is, like, actively trying to work his way up to asking her out. That seems a little too calculated for him and I think it would make their relationship come off as artificial, that Joe and Joyce’s bonding over the people they’re slowly becoming as hard as it is was so Joe could get up in that instead of it being about them bonding because they find that bond emotionally fulfilling and rewarding.
I don’t think Joe is outright consciously aware that he’s into Joyce, I think he’s significantly emotionally invested in her, but Joe as he is now would never admit to himself that he loves her because admitting he loves her means admitting that he could be like his dad, who loved his wife and then constantly cheated on her because he’s a wacky horny frat bro who just can’t help himself, and that’s all Joe will allow himself to be for fear of hurting someone he loves.
…and now that I bring Joe’s dad up, I wonder if his marriage to Amber’s mom will collapse riiiight around the same time Joe is making some nominal headway into shedding his own hangups.
I did struggle to balance the idea of a long game and authenticity. I absolutely don’t think of it as forced and him manipulating her, I just mean that whether he realizes it or not, he is willing to take his time with her. You do make a good point about his fears due to his father, but it’s clear he’s working on himself at his own pace.
Joe and Joyce were briefly married and you could make out through some of the covered text (and then later how he acted while married to Walky) that the idea of marriage as an institution really upset him.
+1
It doesn’t really need a distinctive verbal analogue since
a) the vast majority of fandom discussion is textual
b) we won’t be meeting up for discussions at conventions soon since
c) the world is still increasingly covered in death, and it appears ‘rona is doing her darndest to outpace our vaccines since “we” (as a species) are refusing vaccination.
Re: Brosenthal… Browsenthal maybe, but just brosenthal leaves me thinking of Joe and his ‘frat bros’ (c’ept ‘e don’t have ’em) so maybe like.. Danny and Jacob? Or even Joe and Dadjoe (rhymes-ish with dude-bro)
Because now she’s not being true to herself. She’s doing things she never wanted to do, just because she believes she’s fundamentally different now that she doesn’t believe in a higher power. Joe is saying she’s been a good person all along, and that was from her, not a higher power enforcing her morality.
Alright, who’s the asshole that called that they’d have a deeply personal conversation in Amber’s room while she was still there? I feel like we all owe you at least $5USD.
If you’re enough of a weirdo to DM me on Twitter (add one more “n” to the end of my name) I will send you $5. Maybe this was obvious, but I’m floored you predicted this so accurately.
I’m playing the meta line here and betting that someone will have a deeply personal conversation in this thread about betting on a deeply personal conversation. Come on, seven!
so, like they can bring up opinions they have that they know you don’t share ALL THE TIME (idk about your friends, but the goddists in general find that virtuous) but you cant verbalize disagreement without being “disrespectful”?
Like, Joyce lost her faith because how her faith was taught to her by her upbringing was harmful to her, but Becky’s right there with the exact same upbringing and constantly modifies her beliefs to accommodate accurate worldviews while still ardently maintaining her faith. No there’s no firmament and the universe isn’t 6000 years old, but the important stuff Becky still holds onto.
Meanwhile Joyce’s dad was a huge old fundie asshole and… radically altered his behaviour in the face of his daughter’s refusal to be cruel to Dorothy.
Jennifer’s nominally theistic, though it doesn’t come up much, same for Danny. That’s how religion manifests for them. God’s real, okay I guess, what’s for lunch?
Like yeah Becky’s dad was a huge fundie asshole, in a story where the main character grew up in a bad fundie environment, is there not supposed to be a huge fundie asshole at some point?
Keep in mind, in the older Walkyverse comics (what David Willis did before Dumbing of Age), Joyce’s upbringing wasn’t absurdly poisonous and consequently she kept her faith, and her regaining that faith was treated as a positive by herself and the narrative.
Yes – all of this. The comic’s primary narrative might be viewed through the lens of Joyce (and at this point, Joe), but there are other perspectives in play, and these provide other potential stances which widen our viewpoints.
Yeah like, I think it’s important for these discussions to note that Joyce’s story isn’t The Dark Truth Behind Christianity And Indeed All Religions, Joyce’s story is a deeply personal one about someone who was raised in a poisonous version of what should enrich her life, and consequently she rebels against it once exposed to the world around her.
How exactly does religion enrich one’s life? Do you think there are other ways to satisfy the need for such enrichment without religion of supernatural belief of any kind?
For instance, humanist assemblies are living proof that fellowship isn’t the exclusive province of religion. So there’s one.
Oh cool let me be direct then: I’m not gonna get into a discussion on the necessity of theology and the personal relationship someone can have with their faith in the dumbingofage.com comments section, and certainly not in response to an unprompted take like “How exactly does religion enrich one’s life? Do you think there are other ways to satisfy the need for such enrichment without religion of supernatural belief of any kind?”
I don’t need to justify the existence of religion to you.
I’m just concerned that some of the needs that people strive to have met in being part of a church or ideological community, may really be more like conditioned needs than natural human needs.
It’s all good @Wagstaff, I wasn’t refering to your assertions as you were quite willing to continue what seemed an interesting discussion. Others were not willing to continue and support theirs. I think you’ve raised an interesting point, and frankly am interested in what you would argue are conditioned vs natural needs of such communities. Being an effective critic wouldn’t likely be my strength here however, as I suspect we’d be largely in agreement.
How, if Becky and Joyce have the same upbringing, and incredibly similar experiences, Joyce losing her faith is the fault of, “how her faith was taught to her,” and yet this didn’t result in the same for Becky. They were in the same church and home school classes.
This brings to mind my only real problem with atheism. We don’t have any sort of broadly available, open-door, morally supportive, community centers. And I get why (organized moral idealistic centres breed othering and judgement). But the positive aspects of being in a community church (seemingly surprise help during ordeals, like food deliveries after a baby arrives) feel absent.
I know there are some organizations out there seeking to get this ball rolling, they just don’t yet have the reach of the dozens of churches, mosques, temples etc… that are in my (relatively small) city.
The obvious answer is to start, find or join something, which I’m (excuses). …. goes back to bed.
I get where you’re coming from, but the whole point of atheism is to unmoor yourself from the entire construct of organized religion. While this has its good points, it DOES mean that you lose the community organization that is part and parcel with the big organized religions.
My parents took us to church as children, and enrolled us in their youth group, but looking back, they were never big believers themselves. I think they did it mostly for the community aspects, they wanted me and my sib to have that sense of community growing up, and were willing to accept the religious indoctrination that went with it.
It’s an interesting perspective, but I disagree that atheism has a ‘point’ at all. It’s a (specifically) aspiritual perspective. That may bring with it the desire to disengage from a particular organization (like a toxic religious house) but an atheist outlook doesn’t inherently lead to a desire to disengage from a social/cultural collective. I can’t see (or not see) gods and spirits. However, I can absolutely see communities and their effects, and there do seem to be some positive things associated with community churches and even larger religions that would probably benefit society as a whole if more broadly shared. (not the fanaticism and spirits stuff, but the idea of community)
An example of such was already given, but for a larger structure yet personal example: a catholic friend of mine had a vehicle breakdown in Montreal, but he’s from California. Knowing no-one in the city, he was broke and had nowhere to stay. As a catholic he was able to walk into a church and they helped him out, fed him, let him sleep the night and saw him on his way when his pay finally came in and he could pay the mechanic.
While absolutely an anti-fan of the catholic church, the organization enabled a member to be protected in a time of need. The idea of being able to do this or participate in a humanist organization like this to have somewhere to give, and be a part of community is what seems lacking. Which you already agreed with and apparently I just felt like rambling more. Thanks for hearing me earlier. It’s appreciated.
But just one thing. Atheists and agnostics can still be spiritual, which just entails knowing your values and acting on them, without believing in the supernatural.
Sorry if this sounds more like a pet peeve, but I think a better descriptor in place of “aspiritual” would be “non-supernatural”. Actually, the very definition of being a philosophical Naturalist is not believing in anything supernatural!
Oh, that makes more sense. But not the opposite definition though. The point is that acting on your values, being spiritual, has nothing to do with your position on the supernatural.
Gee, I sure hope the next major lingua franca to develop after English in the next 500 years will be a lot less confusing and stupidly thrown together.
We had them. Free thought movements was quite big at a time.
We also a “cult of reason” once.
And you might even consider trade unions centers in Pelloutier/Pouget versions as an agnostic version of it.
Yeah if the basis of your relationship with your “friends” was based entirely on you both being Christian and at a church, chances are they were never your “friends” to begin with.
@Demoted Oblivious, regarding the fact that secular organizations like humanist assemblies “don’t have the reach of dozens of churches, etc.”, it really doesn’t help that those organizations don’t have the same nigh unquestionable tax exemptions that religions do.
@Deanatay, if you have to accept indoctrination to be part of a community, it’s not really a community, is it?
Any group that routinely excludes people for disagreement will eventually be left with a pool of uncritical, compliant followers. That’s not the same as uniting a community.To unite means to eliminate divisions. Eliminating people, as many, many Abrahamic sects have done and still do, only proves their INABILITY to unite their communities.
@khn0, “cult of reason” ought to be an oxymoron, don’t you think?
Oh, absolutely no argument from me on that. Although as non-profits they still likely benefit from some exemptions, it’s not nearly as broad as churches for sure.
My complaint isn’t with secular organizations, but the lack of their availability, which is not their fault. (social barriers etc)
Also, even the idea of such a thing is very young, since some of the core/earliest tenets of free-thinking is somewhat antithetical to organizing in a coherent fashion around humanism or compassion without turning into ideological centers.
” Morality is not distinctively Christian, any more than it is Mohammedan. Morality is human, it belongs to no ism, and does not depend for a foundation upon the supernatural, or upon any book, or upon any creed.
NGL it’s tough reading as a Christian to have a modern-day college comic repeatedly insist matter-of-fact “God isn’t real!” when the main character started off as a Christian (albeit a thoroughly sheltered, homeschooled, massively misled Christian never encouraged toward critical thinking at all). There are plenty of areas of the faith that aren’t evangelical fundamentalism. But the comic itself is nuanced, fun, meaningful, and I now unironically care for and would protect several characters, even if I wasn’t warned up-front for quite a while that it was semi-autobiographical and written by someone who is no longer in the same faith as before. In other words, I hope at least some of your friends would be able to appreciate it! But certainly give them an up-front perspective/content note first.
Rereading my reply and I feel I should adjust it because the impression that I’m unhappy with or judge Willis’ work for this approach was unintentional. It’s fine, it just feels saddening and jarring to me. I really appreciate the inclusion of characters like Becky who are broadening their horizons from earlier understandings as well as Joyce who seems to be rejecting and rebuilding her worldview more totally. Becky if anything is closer to my own experience (and my upbringing was only /mildly/ conservative!) – although maybe with less of the snark defence mechanism in play, but hey, still. It depends on whether your friends are the sort who were encouraged towards critical thinking at the same time as perceiving what we see in the world through the lens of faith and vice versa – or if they’ve literally been told that any contrasting opinions are the devil’s work and to shun and hide away from them. I do hope they appreciate it if you show it to them though! And I have to say, cool rebel teen Joyce is basically me at uni, so, thanks for that, RNG <3
1. I feel like Joe would get sidetracked by the Hawaiian shirts thing and be confused by the implication that Hawaiian shirts aren’t stylish
2. Wait, Hawaiian shirts aren’t stylish? Since when?
I think Joe and Hawaiian shirts are a multiversal constant. Who ends up with who may change, superpowers may change, aliens existing or being a kids show may change, but Joe will always wear at least one Hawaiian shirt.
I will be ineffectually furious if we get to the end of this storyline and no overt romantic interactions/overtures occur, but they really should leave Amber’s room first.
My really good friend Katherine passed away from complications of COVID at the end of November last year. She was real. She existed. Now she doesn’t exist any more.
I infer Joe (and Dad?) is a non-believing but somewhat culturally practicing Jew. Probably doesn’t keep kosher, cares enough to teach Amber about Hanukkah.
He said he’s not an atheist, but he’s clearly not super-religious, either. Heaven and hell just aren’t really Jewish concepts the way Christians envision them.
Well if I’m not mistaken, in Judaism, or at least Orthodox Judaism, being unaligned with the will of Yahweh is the ultimate punishment in and of itself.
In addition, there’s actually a passage in the Hebrew Bible that denies the existence of any life or consciousness beyond death:
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.”
That’s one interpretation of the afterlife in Judaism; like many things, there are multiple potential answers but most of us agree we can’t really know what happens after we die.
Also, we don’t use Yahweh as a name for God. The vowels for God’s name have been lost and it’s considered very blasphemous to mispronounce it, so we use epitaphs and euphemisms instead (e.g. Hashem, Adonai).
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it considered blasphemous to pronounce it correctly for over two millenia?
To my knowledge, some prints of the Hebrew Bible even have it written backward so as to ensure that not even the most absent-minded believer would accidentally pronounce it.
What exactly do you mean by “the life to come”? Is that necessarily an afterlife or just a way of referring to the new period of the Kingdom of Israel?
Also, it is instructive to note that translated passages in the Old Testament that mention “soul” actually translate that word from the Hebrew nephesh, which literally translates to “breath of being”, and is used in that text to refer to any living creature. Judaism really didn’t develop anything close to the Christian concept of the “soul” until they came into contact with the Greeks and their concept of psyche (as well as Zoroastrians and their beliefs) after the 6th century B.C.E.
Joe is doing really well here but he probably doesn’t realise how close he is to idealising Joyce, to putting her on a pedestal and attributing standards to her that she can’t possibly live up to
I think he’s doing the exact opposite of idealizing her, and while “one day she’ll be perfect and you’ll wish you got on that” definitely sounds like idealizing, I think it’s more admiration of who she is than idealizing a vision of her that doesn’t exist.
He’s telling her right now that all her Wacky Fundie Girl Quirks were part of her and don’t need to get brushed aside with the dissolution of her faith. Joyce’s religious identity is gone, but the rest of her doesn’t have to go with it.
Nah if he were putting her on a pedestal then they wouldn’t have had that conversation earlier where it hits Joyce that she’s just a monkey.
Joe cracks a joke, and then instead of either pulling a Dorothy by lionizing and trying to calm her panic or indulging in her catastrophizing, he lets it happen and shares his thoughts.
It’s sailing so hard that somehow Joe and Joyce in the original Walkyverse might actually be getting together.
Actually, with that in mind, it’d be pretty intense of Willis to run Joe and Joyce together full through marriage and divorce, only to get her together with Walky when they’re adults. :taps chin contemplatively:
[Reminder to those needing it that DoA ties to the original ending of Walkyverse wherein Joyce and Walky question “would we have gotten together under different circumstances”].
It’s not that Joyce isn’t real any more, it’s that NONE of this is real. Joyce worked so hard on her Julia Gray comic strip that she inceptioned herself into it. She’s now nothing more than a self-insert.
My Joeyce shipping heart is loving this but I bet I’m gonna have said heart stomped cruelty in one of the next couple of strips, if not *the* next one ;-;
Guhhhhh I am so excited we are finally getting serious Joe character development, and that that development is pointing in the direction of Joyce x Joe, since she’s been a level of honest with him that she hasn’t shared with anyone else, and he’s taking it seriously and trying to be a caring friend about it. A really big deal. AHHHH
I find it interesting that no one seems to see the possibility that Joe and Joyce could be really loyal friends, and not romantically involved. Or maybe it just ‘cause I ship Joyce and Sarah. :p
It’s possible, sure, but it doesn’t feel like what’s been built towards, and I don’t think we’re ever really been given an indication of Sarah as having any sapphic tendencies, but I mean, it’s possible I am forgetting something. I kinda read them as more like siblings, though, big and little sis.
Sarah sees Joyce as a little sister to take care of. Obviously that could change over time, but we’ve been given no indication Sarah sees Joyce as anything but an annoying puppy that she now has to take care of.
Awww. Sad puppies eyes… for Joe and Joyce… So sweet (♡) and so sad. Joe can’t stand anymore to see how Joyce is more and more sad and angry and finally they are talking about it. But it’s still to soon for Joyce for calm down. This will probably end with one of them go away and both of them more sad. A beautiful drama, who Amber will probably ignore. I just hope Amber will not ignore it and will speak with one of them about it. Especially with Joe.
In this moment, a sudden glow shines from the door, growing into the entire room. So, throuugh the light, a figure comes out walking, a male blond figure, dressing a black shirt.
It’s Mike.
Soon, he extend his hands to Joyce, as he is inviting:
Joe always had a good heart. We can see this in his long-standing friendship with Danny. It’s just that due to his role models growing up he never really knew how to (or that he HAD to) form equally beneficial and understanding relationships with women beyond mutual sexual gratification.
I’ve shipped Joyce and Joe since the beginning because they both bring out the best in each other. But I teared up a little at this one.
Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE VIDEO ADS WITH NO “X”?? I’m trying to type a comment here, and a video is taking up 3/4 of my screen every 15 seconds. This used to not be a thing.
Damnit Joe, I swear after we show you some media depicting positive platonic male-female relationships, we’re gonna make a half-decent person outta you!
Joe showing Joyce that just because there isn’t a big man in a book telling her right from wrong doesn’t mean she personally doesn’t know right from wrong. She always knew deep down under all the conditioning. And I think deep down she knows Joe is a good person too, or else she wouldn’t confide in him like she does.
Also what are the chances amber heard any of that and thus knows Joyce is an atheist now, or do ya think she went straight back to whatever game she’s playing
THIS is the cost of telling someone their whole life: “You don’t matter, you can’t be moral just to be a good person. Any good thing you’ve ever done is because of God.”
I’m so thick, I just got this. He’s telling her that person, who did believe in God, and Heaven, and Hell, existed (and mattered), and the fact that she’s a different person doesn’t make her past self less important. I knew the past tense mattered, but couldn’t quite wrap my mind around it.
Me if I ever see Tony Hawk: Hey you’re Tony Hawk the famous skateboarder. That’s right I recognise you. Won’t be able to get any content out of this will you, you piece of shit
How to read all 28 issues of my Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane run on Marvel Unlimited:
1: The first four issues were published as the miniseries "Mary Jane."
www.marvel.com/comics/serie...
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 3d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 3d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 12d
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BUT NOT ANYMORE
wait no
Just a mirage. See? I can put my hand through you and everything.
Joyce was a ghost the whole time? What a twist!
Maybe Joe can tell they’re cartoons.
Nah he’s just recognizing that Joyce has changed and as such her past self is gone. In a sense anyways.
not ‘gone’, but changed. His reference is deeper there-it doesn’t matter if heaven or hell exist, so much as whether one acts as one believes on the subject. There are a lot of faux Christians out there who parse and slice the word of god to suit their own narrow prejudices, but even before she started questioning, Joyce acted with a level of integrity most of the preachers and followers (including her own mother) didn’t. she was “REAL”-she actually practiced the golden rule and practiced what she would preach.
That’s a major difference from the stereotype, and from a lot of people who SAY they believe a thing, but don’t act on it. THey’re ‘fake’, but Joyce was ‘real’ in her deeds.
see the difference?
It seems like you may have…the Sixth Sense! xD
MAKE OUT NOW
I am 100% here for that.
If only because Amber’s still right there, and she would have to aggressively ignore it.
well, that too. but Joyce and Joe having A Moment.
Never underestimate Amber.
Bold of you to assume she’s not writing slashfic of them as they speak
*already wrote reams of slashfic of them during the timeskip*
Joe and Joyce would not be slash.
Well, not before she gender-swaps one of them, at any rate.
I kinda feel like I’m talking to myself, here.
And yes! (who will write it for us?)
I would read a 1000 page comic of just Joyce and Joe making out while Amber aggressively tries to ignore it. ~<3
I would read a 1000-page comic of just Joyce and Joe making out while Amber is aggressively trying to ignore the fact that they’re inviting her to join in in their most seductive manners.
Amber shares a half-bath with Dorothy and Becky. Dorothy would absolutely vacate so Joyce could get to work, but I feel like Becky is a bit of a wild card here. 33% chance she has zero issues, 33% chance she says “Wait until marriage!” no matter what, and 34% chance “Joyce saying “I’m an atheist, God isn’t real, mind leaving the room so I can fuck my boyfriend.” gives Becky a catatonic Joyce-reaction-panel and they just push her out of the room.
Halfway through typing that last sentence, it occurred to me that they could just go to Joyce’s room (Sarah would absolutely bounce upon Joe’s arrival), but the thought of Becky getting a wide-eyed reaction needed to be birthed into the world, assuming Willis hasn’t already beaten me to the punch.
Oh my god, Becky doing a Joyce eye-pop reaction would be absolutely fantastic, holy shit
How would that even work, given she has the dot eyes? Would that cause her to spontaneously generate visible sclera for a frame?
Sometimes they do. I think Walky popped them when they saw the Hymmel episode he was in.
OH, FUCK, THAT’S A JOE LINE. God, these callbacks would make Stan Lee weep. Took me a second read to get it.
Would you mind telling me what strip it is? I have no idea what this is referring to lol
I approve this sentiment.
**gets their magnets off the fridge and awkwardly taps them together**
I misread that first as a typo of “tapes them together” and thought, ‘it’s a bit early for bondage, no?’… oh, right… ‘taps’
You know, like bumping two dolls together to imitate kissing.
That said, Joyce might actually find bondage quite relaxing. If she can let herself go and relax into it, anyway. A little shibari with no actual limb restraint might be a good place to start.
Honestly? I hope not now. Joyce is still emotionally raw from losing her religion.
If this pairing is going to happen, I’d prefer it to be when Joyce is more emotionally stable.
And y,know, Joe has some issues too, I guess.
I just want them to hug, a lot. I think they should hug until they feel safe and stable again. Might be a few weeks but I’m here for it.
A few weeks there time. A year or so our time lol
3¾ – 5 years. We got two months in a decade, pre-skip. Post skip time still seems plenty slow, if not slower.
It’s like the everlasting gobstopper of webcomics!
I mean “real” in this context is relative as she’s actually a fictional character as well as you Joe.
Yeah, honestly. I wish he’d get with the program already. Why can’t these fictional characters just realize they’re fake and stop playing it up like they were real? So tired of it smh my head.
What? and blaspheme against The Lord Willis?
I just love how much they’ve developed since the start, y’all
They’re getting Married. Calling it.
He’s for sure playing the long game. And by “game” I mean that he’s clearly had real feelings for her since she started texting him in class, but he didn’t get in the way when she was testing the waters with Jacob, he just respected her boundries and looked put for her. Since, he’s worked on himself, something he continues to do so that he can better be there for her. I don’t think they’re getting together right now, but he’s absolutely gonna show her he can be husband material if it’s for her.
And I thought I was optimistic.
They likely are the long game, unless Willis has more twists for us and Joe is definitely interested, but that’s not at all what he’s doing. You’re ignoring his own hang-ups. He’s not trying to show he’s husband material, because he knows he’s not. He knows he’s just like his dad and he’d cheat on her and hurt her, which he couldn’t bear.
I definitely don’t think Joe is, like, actively trying to work his way up to asking her out. That seems a little too calculated for him and I think it would make their relationship come off as artificial, that Joe and Joyce’s bonding over the people they’re slowly becoming as hard as it is was so Joe could get up in that instead of it being about them bonding because they find that bond emotionally fulfilling and rewarding.
I don’t think Joe is outright consciously aware that he’s into Joyce, I think he’s significantly emotionally invested in her, but Joe as he is now would never admit to himself that he loves her because admitting he loves her means admitting that he could be like his dad, who loved his wife and then constantly cheated on her because he’s a wacky horny frat bro who just can’t help himself, and that’s all Joe will allow himself to be for fear of hurting someone he loves.
…and now that I bring Joe’s dad up, I wonder if his marriage to Amber’s mom will collapse riiiight around the same time Joe is making some nominal headway into shedding his own hangups.
I did struggle to balance the idea of a long game and authenticity. I absolutely don’t think of it as forced and him manipulating her, I just mean that whether he realizes it or not, he is willing to take his time with her. You do make a good point about his fears due to his father, but it’s clear he’s working on himself at his own pace.
Of course they’re getting married. And then Jacob reenters the picture.
And declares his love for Joe.
Joe who?
don’t think it don’t say it don’t think it don’t say it
Hm! Ship. . . Shipping Mode. . .Activating!
Joe uses. . . emotional depth and honesty? It’s. . .Super Effective?
The problem is, combining their first names in almost any manner just gives you either “Joyce” or “Joyce” but spelled wrong.
We need to use their last names. Brosenthal?
JoJo
I’ve pushed this for years now.
Their relationship would be a bizarre adventure, I’ll give you that.
Especially if a mad man like me made a mysterious arrow from an equally mysterious meteorite.
Fuck, Brosenthal is incredible, but Spencer also has it. Their child will inevitably go by “Jojo Brosenthal” and they’re the protagonist of Part 9.
That’s the Part where Kakyoin laid an egg, right?
For years, you say? I don’t think Joe’s the kind of person who endorses a deep commitment.
Ever since…. that time they pretended to be married in Gender Studies class?
Wasn’t that Dorothy/Joyce (cue Becky’s internal screaming) and Walky/Joe?
Joe and Joyce were briefly married and you could make out through some of the covered text (and then later how he acted while married to Walky) that the idea of marriage as an institution really upset him.
Rosenbrosen
My favorite is still Joeyce.
+1
It doesn’t really need a distinctive verbal analogue since
a) the vast majority of fandom discussion is textual
b) we won’t be meeting up for discussions at conventions soon since
c) the world is still increasingly covered in death, and it appears ‘rona is doing her darndest to outpace our vaccines since “we” (as a species) are refusing vaccination.
Re: Brosenthal… Browsenthal maybe, but just brosenthal leaves me thinking of Joe and his ‘frat bros’ (c’ept ‘e don’t have ’em) so maybe like.. Danny and Jacob? Or even Joe and Dadjoe (rhymes-ish with dude-bro)
No.
“Joy”.
Holy shit, it’s happening.
I’ve been reading DoA for 6-7 years now and I don’t think I’ve ever hoped for a plot development like this.
Wait for it.
…and we cut to a different plotline with no return to or mention of this one for five years
Oh shit.
Joe? Why are you using the past tense?
Because she’s not real anymore, as the camera pans back to Amber wondering why Joe is talking to himself in her room.
Because now she’s not being true to herself. She’s doing things she never wanted to do, just because she believes she’s fundamentally different now that she doesn’t believe in a higher power. Joe is saying she’s been a good person all along, and that was from her, not a higher power enforcing her morality.
He’s using the past tense to say that the person she was at that time was real.
And a 10.
Don’t ask silly questions when you can clearly see the gun in Panel 5.
Alright, who’s the asshole that called that they’d have a deeply personal conversation in Amber’s room while she was still there? I feel like we all owe you at least $5USD.
It wasn’t me but I am both an asshole and want five dollars, so I’ll take it.
You rang?
If you’re enough of a weirdo to DM me on Twitter (add one more “n” to the end of my name) I will send you $5. Maybe this was obvious, but I’m floored you predicted this so accurately.
I was going to object on the accuracy front, but five bucks is five bucks. Go for it!
Did you?
They included link and everything.
It seems RC is waiting for confirmation from S that they sent RTD 5$
Nothing in my Twitter inbox. I don’t think I have random messages blocked.
I’m playing the meta line here and betting that someone will have a deeply personal conversation in this thread about betting on a deeply personal conversation. Come on, seven!
… oh my gods.
Man, this comic just gets harder and harder to recommend to my Christian friends
Crises of faith do happen, as do conversations to this effect when they’re had by two atheists, one of whom is newly minted.
Joe isn’t an atheist. He said as much. He just doesn’t do a lot of formal observance.
Yeah, but all my Christian friends would believe it’s somehow an attack on their religion
Sounds like your Christian friends are hard to recommend to generally, huh.
Not really. They’re just real sensitive about their religion
Not in a satanic panic kinda way though, right?
Only in a “they get upset if I suggest their God isn’t real” kind of way.
so, like they can bring up opinions they have that they know you don’t share ALL THE TIME (idk about your friends, but the goddists in general find that virtuous) but you cant verbalize disagreement without being “disrespectful”?
seems fair
@misanthropope, you have no idea….
It sounds like @misanthropope has exactly the right idea.
I mean, it’s not really about them, I guess?
Like, Joyce lost her faith because how her faith was taught to her by her upbringing was harmful to her, but Becky’s right there with the exact same upbringing and constantly modifies her beliefs to accommodate accurate worldviews while still ardently maintaining her faith. No there’s no firmament and the universe isn’t 6000 years old, but the important stuff Becky still holds onto.
Meanwhile Joyce’s dad was a huge old fundie asshole and… radically altered his behaviour in the face of his daughter’s refusal to be cruel to Dorothy.
Jennifer’s nominally theistic, though it doesn’t come up much, same for Danny. That’s how religion manifests for them. God’s real, okay I guess, what’s for lunch?
Like yeah Becky’s dad was a huge fundie asshole, in a story where the main character grew up in a bad fundie environment, is there not supposed to be a huge fundie asshole at some point?
Keep in mind, in the older Walkyverse comics (what David Willis did before Dumbing of Age), Joyce’s upbringing wasn’t absurdly poisonous and consequently she kept her faith, and her regaining that faith was treated as a positive by herself and the narrative.
Yes – all of this. The comic’s primary narrative might be viewed through the lens of Joyce (and at this point, Joe), but there are other perspectives in play, and these provide other potential stances which widen our viewpoints.
Yeah like, I think it’s important for these discussions to note that Joyce’s story isn’t The Dark Truth Behind Christianity And Indeed All Religions, Joyce’s story is a deeply personal one about someone who was raised in a poisonous version of what should enrich her life, and consequently she rebels against it once exposed to the world around her.
How exactly does religion enrich one’s life? Do you think there are other ways to satisfy the need for such enrichment without religion of supernatural belief of any kind?
For instance, humanist assemblies are living proof that fellowship isn’t the exclusive province of religion. So there’s one.
r/atheism is over yonder, my dude
I’m not too familiar with that idiom, at least in this context.
Oh cool let me be direct then: I’m not gonna get into a discussion on the necessity of theology and the personal relationship someone can have with their faith in the dumbingofage.com comments section, and certainly not in response to an unprompted take like “How exactly does religion enrich one’s life? Do you think there are other ways to satisfy the need for such enrichment without religion of supernatural belief of any kind?”
I don’t need to justify the existence of religion to you.
That’s just fine. I’m only curious on what kinds of important purposes you think it serves in peoples’ lives, that’s all.
Note that I would still be open to others besides you sharing what they think.
My prompt was really a response to your comment, “raised in a poisonous version of what should enrich her life”.
For those interested in these discussions, sometimes with people willing to support implied assertions:
reddit/r/atheism
Sorry if that assertion was out of line.
I’m just concerned that some of the needs that people strive to have met in being part of a church or ideological community, may really be more like conditioned needs than natural human needs.
It’s all good @Wagstaff, I wasn’t refering to your assertions as you were quite willing to continue what seemed an interesting discussion. Others were not willing to continue and support theirs. I think you’ve raised an interesting point, and frankly am interested in what you would argue are conditioned vs natural needs of such communities. Being an effective critic wouldn’t likely be my strength here however, as I suspect we’d be largely in agreement.
How, if Becky and Joyce have the same upbringing, and incredibly similar experiences, Joyce losing her faith is the fault of, “how her faith was taught to her,” and yet this didn’t result in the same for Becky. They were in the same church and home school classes.
Hey, some Christians think this comic is great!
I got this problem anymore: as I turn myself a non-believer, I figure out 95% in my church are not my “friend”.
This brings to mind my only real problem with atheism. We don’t have any sort of broadly available, open-door, morally supportive, community centers. And I get why (organized moral idealistic centres breed othering and judgement). But the positive aspects of being in a community church (seemingly surprise help during ordeals, like food deliveries after a baby arrives) feel absent.
I know there are some organizations out there seeking to get this ball rolling, they just don’t yet have the reach of the dozens of churches, mosques, temples etc… that are in my (relatively small) city.
The obvious answer is to start, find or join something, which I’m (excuses). …. goes back to bed.
I get where you’re coming from, but the whole point of atheism is to unmoor yourself from the entire construct of organized religion. While this has its good points, it DOES mean that you lose the community organization that is part and parcel with the big organized religions.
My parents took us to church as children, and enrolled us in their youth group, but looking back, they were never big believers themselves. I think they did it mostly for the community aspects, they wanted me and my sib to have that sense of community growing up, and were willing to accept the religious indoctrination that went with it.
It’s an interesting perspective, but I disagree that atheism has a ‘point’ at all. It’s a (specifically) aspiritual perspective. That may bring with it the desire to disengage from a particular organization (like a toxic religious house) but an atheist outlook doesn’t inherently lead to a desire to disengage from a social/cultural collective. I can’t see (or not see) gods and spirits. However, I can absolutely see communities and their effects, and there do seem to be some positive things associated with community churches and even larger religions that would probably benefit society as a whole if more broadly shared. (not the fanaticism and spirits stuff, but the idea of community)
An example of such was already given, but for a larger structure yet personal example: a catholic friend of mine had a vehicle breakdown in Montreal, but he’s from California. Knowing no-one in the city, he was broke and had nowhere to stay. As a catholic he was able to walk into a church and they helped him out, fed him, let him sleep the night and saw him on his way when his pay finally came in and he could pay the mechanic.
While absolutely an anti-fan of the catholic church, the organization enabled a member to be protected in a time of need. The idea of being able to do this or participate in a humanist organization like this to have somewhere to give, and be a part of community is what seems lacking. Which you already agreed with and apparently I just felt like rambling more. Thanks for hearing me earlier. It’s appreciated.
Very well put Demo!!!
But just one thing. Atheists and agnostics can still be spiritual, which just entails knowing your values and acting on them, without believing in the supernatural.
Sorry if this sounds more like a pet peeve, but I think a better descriptor in place of “aspiritual” would be “non-supernatural”. Actually, the very definition of being a philosophical Naturalist is not believing in anything supernatural!
Interesting definition of spiritual. Almost opposite how most people I know tend to use it.
Wait, you mean people you know use it to mean being ignorant of your own values and NOT acting on them?
No, not that weird interpretation. More about the supernatural element.
Oh, that makes more sense. But not the opposite definition though. The point is that acting on your values, being spiritual, has nothing to do with your position on the supernatural.
Gee, I sure hope the next major lingua franca to develop after English in the next 500 years will be a lot less confusing and stupidly thrown together.
Yes, I wasn’t sure where your definition of “spiritual” stopped in your post. For many people, “spiritual” is explicitly linked to the supernatural.
If you meant that part separate from the definition of spiritual, then the definition isn’t almost opposite, just pretty different.
We had them. Free thought movements was quite big at a time.
We also a “cult of reason” once.
And you might even consider trade unions centers in Pelloutier/Pouget versions as an agnostic version of it.
I’m gonna think about these questions. Thanks.
Yeah if the basis of your relationship with your “friends” was based entirely on you both being Christian and at a church, chances are they were never your “friends” to begin with.
Real homies stick with ya even if ya lose faith.
Oh, yeah, I got few friends, and they are my besties.
Peharps I found more friends here.
Yes, you have found them.
If you’d like, you’ve got a friend in me.
@Demoted Oblivious, regarding the fact that secular organizations like humanist assemblies “don’t have the reach of dozens of churches, etc.”, it really doesn’t help that those organizations don’t have the same nigh unquestionable tax exemptions that religions do.
@Deanatay, if you have to accept indoctrination to be part of a community, it’s not really a community, is it?
Any group that routinely excludes people for disagreement will eventually be left with a pool of uncritical, compliant followers. That’s not the same as uniting a community.To unite means to eliminate divisions. Eliminating people, as many, many Abrahamic sects have done and still do, only proves their INABILITY to unite their communities.
@khn0, “cult of reason” ought to be an oxymoron, don’t you think?
Oh, absolutely no argument from me on that. Although as non-profits they still likely benefit from some exemptions, it’s not nearly as broad as churches for sure.
My complaint isn’t with secular organizations, but the lack of their availability, which is not their fault. (social barriers etc)
Also, even the idea of such a thing is very young, since some of the core/earliest tenets of free-thinking is somewhat antithetical to organizing in a coherent fashion around humanism or compassion without turning into ideological centers.
That is very true.
” Morality is not distinctively Christian, any more than it is Mohammedan. Morality is human, it belongs to no ism, and does not depend for a foundation upon the supernatural, or upon any book, or upon any creed.
Morality itself is a foundation. “
– Robert G. Ingersol
That’s a new one for my book of quotes. Thanks Wags!
NGL it’s tough reading as a Christian to have a modern-day college comic repeatedly insist matter-of-fact “God isn’t real!” when the main character started off as a Christian (albeit a thoroughly sheltered, homeschooled, massively misled Christian never encouraged toward critical thinking at all). There are plenty of areas of the faith that aren’t evangelical fundamentalism. But the comic itself is nuanced, fun, meaningful, and I now unironically care for and would protect several characters, even if I wasn’t warned up-front for quite a while that it was semi-autobiographical and written by someone who is no longer in the same faith as before. In other words, I hope at least some of your friends would be able to appreciate it! But certainly give them an up-front perspective/content note first.
Rereading my reply and I feel I should adjust it because the impression that I’m unhappy with or judge Willis’ work for this approach was unintentional. It’s fine, it just feels saddening and jarring to me. I really appreciate the inclusion of characters like Becky who are broadening their horizons from earlier understandings as well as Joyce who seems to be rejecting and rebuilding her worldview more totally. Becky if anything is closer to my own experience (and my upbringing was only /mildly/ conservative!) – although maybe with less of the snark defence mechanism in play, but hey, still. It depends on whether your friends are the sort who were encouraged towards critical thinking at the same time as perceiving what we see in the world through the lens of faith and vice versa – or if they’ve literally been told that any contrasting opinions are the devil’s work and to shun and hide away from them. I do hope they appreciate it if you show it to them though! And I have to say, cool rebel teen Joyce is basically me at uni, so, thanks for that, RNG <3
*plays “The Unicorn and Princess Rainbow” by Steven Burns on Voxola PR-76*
Hats off to Joe.
Slow. fucking. Clap.
oof, right in the feels
Joyce: but what if I don’t exist? What if I’m just the creation of a Transformers addict who thinks Hawaiian shirts are stylish? What then?
Joe: then Hell does exist and we are in it.
1. I feel like Joe would get sidetracked by the Hawaiian shirts thing and be confused by the implication that Hawaiian shirts aren’t stylish
2. Wait, Hawaiian shirts aren’t stylish? Since when?
I think Joe and Hawaiian shirts are a multiversal constant. Who ends up with who may change, superpowers may change, aliens existing or being a kids show may change, but Joe will always wear at least one Hawaiian shirt.
So it’s like Space Dandy but for a specific piece of wardrobe? Keen.
Oh, no. Joe is making sense.
Oh come on. Even Patrick Star has the right idea on one occasion.
I would probably be impressed if I had any idea who Patrick Star was.
He was the third drummer for the Beatles. Kids these days…
Beatles. I’ve heard of Beatles. A famous band back in the ’50s, right?
No, Beatles are the insects that can lift 700 times their own weight.
They were a boy band that didn’t even get onto iTunes. Here is a review of their music.
Sorry, Delicious Taffy, you are confused. That was Patrick Starr, with two r’s. A common mistake.
Oh shit, you’re right. Thanks, stranger! I was thinking of the guitarist for Korn.
Wait, really?
If I asked you if mayonnaise was an instrument would you just be confused or would you answer me honestly?
Patrick Star (and friend).
+1 Thank you. I love it.
He does that sometimes.
And you were real… In bed!
*chanting* Kiss! Kiss! Kiss!
I will be ineffectually furious if we get to the end of this storyline and no overt romantic interactions/overtures occur, but they really should leave Amber’s room first.
Nah, it’ll give her better fuel for her
pornographyliterature if she sees it.Once a hand goes under a shirt, then it’s time to leave.
Has no-one shared with you the term
“cliterature”
?
they’re wearing the same colors. what does it mean…
Hmm….. surely that CANNOT be a mere coincidence on behalf of Willis.
It’s called “limited pallette.” It’s a thing artists do.
Were there any other times Willis did this? To such a degree with characters?
I never noticed, but he uses a limited palette pretty much all the time. And not the only comic artist that does.
Asking Willis about limited pallete in his comic right now might just reveal whether or not we CAN ship JoJo. With some deductive reasoning, that is.Damn you, Willis, right in the feels.
My really good friend Katherine passed away from complications of COVID at the end of November last year. She was real. She existed. Now she doesn’t exist any more.
WHAM! ….. right in the feels indeed.
I’m really sorry. I didn’t know her, but now I know about her. And that’s good.
I’m sorry for your loss.
She still lives in my memories, and the memories of the people who knew her. And when you get right down to it, isn’t that about all we can ask for?
So therefore, in the Dumbiverse, so long as people remember him, Mike is not dead either.
Of course, that goes both ways. Somewhere out there in the Dumbiverse Blaine and Toedad still exist too.
Sure that denigrating Dumbiverse dad duo still exist too. And no doubt they’ll survive ten centuries hence — stuffed with cotton and hung in a museum.
That way, future generations can learn how NOT to have their unfortunate attitudes.
That’s awful – I’m so sorry for your loss.
I’m so sorry for your loss, but thank you for sharing her with us.
Panel 6 & 7 together gives me so much life right now.
They’re pretty perfect.
WERE?!
What does Joe know that the rest of us don’t?!
Joyce died over the timeskip, but her ghost can’t let go.
I fucking TOLD Y’ALL
I infer Joe (and Dad?) is a non-believing but somewhat culturally practicing Jew. Probably doesn’t keep kosher, cares enough to teach Amber about Hanukkah.
You’re correct, I believe.
He said he’s not an atheist, but he’s clearly not super-religious, either. Heaven and hell just aren’t really Jewish concepts the way Christians envision them.
Well if I’m not mistaken, in Judaism, or at least Orthodox Judaism, being unaligned with the will of Yahweh is the ultimate punishment in and of itself.
In addition, there’s actually a passage in the Hebrew Bible that denies the existence of any life or consciousness beyond death:
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.”
— Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Leningrad Codex
Leningrad, eh? Awfully Russian-soundin’, ain’t it? Best toss that one out to be safe, patriot.
Some scholars think mentions of God were interpolated into Ecclesiastes just to get it in the Bible.
There are reasons Christians, on the whole, don’t seem to be fond of Ecclesiastes.
That’s one interpretation of the afterlife in Judaism; like many things, there are multiple potential answers but most of us agree we can’t really know what happens after we die.
Also, we don’t use Yahweh as a name for God. The vowels for God’s name have been lost and it’s considered very blasphemous to mispronounce it, so we use epitaphs and euphemisms instead (e.g. Hashem, Adonai).
Very interesting!
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it considered blasphemous to pronounce it correctly for over two millenia?
To my knowledge, some prints of the Hebrew Bible even have it written backward so as to ensure that not even the most absent-minded believer would accidentally pronounce it.
But there’s also a Talmudic passage about how a short list of people, including apikorsim (Epicureans) will have no place in the life to come.
Judaism isn’t as *into* the afterlife but the idea is there. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/afterlife
What exactly do you mean by “the life to come”? Is that necessarily an afterlife or just a way of referring to the new period of the Kingdom of Israel?
Also, it is instructive to note that translated passages in the Old Testament that mention “soul” actually translate that word from the Hebrew nephesh, which literally translates to “breath of being”, and is used in that text to refer to any living creature. Judaism really didn’t develop anything close to the Christian concept of the “soul” until they came into contact with the Greeks and their concept of psyche (as well as Zoroastrians and their beliefs) after the 6th century B.C.E.
Hnnnnngh, feelings.
This is more or less what I expected. And yet I am still gobsmacked he’s come right out and said it.
So how long until these 2 admit they have feelings for each other?
Joyce, honey, no. You can do so much better.
Remember, you hired Mike punch Joe once upon a time.
Do you remember anything else about her back then? They definitely both have a lot they probably look back on and wince.
That sounds more like a “Joe, you can do better” argument, honestly.
They can both do better. Dorothy isn’t at Yale yet.
Yeah and she wasn’t in the right to do so.
Joe is doing really well here but he probably doesn’t realise how close he is to idealising Joyce, to putting her on a pedestal and attributing standards to her that she can’t possibly live up to
If he hasn’t already
I think he’s doing the exact opposite of idealizing her, and while “one day she’ll be perfect and you’ll wish you got on that” definitely sounds like idealizing, I think it’s more admiration of who she is than idealizing a vision of her that doesn’t exist.
He’s telling her right now that all her Wacky Fundie Girl Quirks were part of her and don’t need to get brushed aside with the dissolution of her faith. Joyce’s religious identity is gone, but the rest of her doesn’t have to go with it.
Well I hope you’re right because if they’re to succeed as a couple then putting Joyce on pedestal is certainly not the way to go about it
Nah if he were putting her on a pedestal then they wouldn’t have had that conversation earlier where it hits Joyce that she’s just a monkey.
Joe cracks a joke, and then instead of either pulling a Dorothy by lionizing and trying to calm her panic or indulging in her catastrophizing, he lets it happen and shares his thoughts.
Joe doesn’t need to idolize nor idealize Joyce; however, he may need to put her on a pedastal. so. they. can.
KISS
C’mon you two, KISS! I wanna have two of my ships set sail in the same week!
Ship may be leaving port, repeat, SHIP MAY BE LEAVING PORT
AW
AWWWWWW
AYE FUCKIN’ DOUBLE YOO
*buy tickets for the cruise*
This ship is setting sail.
It’s sailing so hard that somehow Joe and Joyce in the original Walkyverse might actually be getting together.
Actually, with that in mind, it’d be pretty intense of Willis to run Joe and Joyce together full through marriage and divorce, only to get her together with Walky when they’re adults. :taps chin contemplatively:
[Reminder to those needing it that DoA ties to the original ending of Walkyverse wherein Joyce and Walky question “would we have gotten together under different circumstances”].
Damn Joyce, head down and looking up with those big, blue eyes would melt anyones heart
Now we just need Jacob to walk in….
Yeeeeeeeeees. Gooooooooood. Let the love flow through you.
Let’s get it on!
Wow! That’s profound.
So, in all Joe’s quest of avoiding feels is not super effective.
People are good at lying to themselves, but not very good at not feeling. They are pesty old feelings and I cannot shut them off.
Anti-depressants are pretty good at muting them. Not perfectly, but enough that you don’t care to succeed or fail at anything and just kind of exist.
It’s not that Joyce isn’t real any more, it’s that NONE of this is real. Joyce worked so hard on her Julia Gray comic strip that she inceptioned herself into it. She’s now nothing more than a self-insert.
All-Star Dumbing of Age by Grant Morrison
Oh, tender, beefy, yet oversexed Joseph. Your Jewish background actually makes this strip even more palpable and genuine in a humanistic way.
I keep checking each frame to see if the beard is growing.
Joe: Unless you’re a Tibetan Buddhist in which case you don’t exist but Heaven and Hell exist because you think they do.
Joyce: AH!
Joe: Oh right, you’re not ready for World Religion 101.
“… And I loved you for your sweetness and light!”
My Joeyce shipping heart is loving this but I bet I’m gonna have said heart stomped cruelty in one of the next couple of strips, if not *the* next one ;-;
A home is not built by the laying of a single brick, but by laying many bricks over a long time.
and lots of pipe.
XD
Bravo!
Guhhhhh I am so excited we are finally getting serious Joe character development, and that that development is pointing in the direction of Joyce x Joe, since she’s been a level of honest with him that she hasn’t shared with anyone else, and he’s taking it seriously and trying to be a caring friend about it. A really big deal. AHHHH
Oooo their outfits fit. Colors-wise!
I find it interesting that no one seems to see the possibility that Joe and Joyce could be really loyal friends, and not romantically involved. Or maybe it just ‘cause I ship Joyce and Sarah. :p
It’s possible, sure, but it doesn’t feel like what’s been built towards, and I don’t think we’re ever really been given an indication of Sarah as having any sapphic tendencies, but I mean, it’s possible I am forgetting something. I kinda read them as more like siblings, though, big and little sis.
Definitely sisters.
Yes, finally someone spoke about it.
That’s what happened in the other universe.
They almost boned there too, and did in HAII’s universe.
I mean the fact that Joe is very clearly in love with her doesn’t help
Sarah sees Joyce as a little sister to take care of. Obviously that could change over time, but we’ve been given no indication Sarah sees Joyce as anything but an annoying puppy that she now has to take care of.
Awww. Sad puppies eyes… for Joe and Joyce… So sweet (♡) and so sad. Joe can’t stand anymore to see how Joyce is more and more sad and angry and finally they are talking about it. But it’s still to soon for Joyce for calm down. This will probably end with one of them go away and both of them more sad. A beautiful drama, who Amber will probably ignore. I just hope Amber will not ignore it and will speak with one of them about it. Especially with Joe.
when the fuck did JOE become this fucking real.
He can get surprisingly intense about Joyce stuff.
My shipping of these two has intensified.
Somehow i never saw the connection between these two
I might be a bit blind
In this moment, a sudden glow shines from the door, growing into the entire room. So, throuugh the light, a figure comes out walking, a male blond figure, dressing a black shirt.
It’s Mike.
Soon, he extend his hands to Joyce, as he is inviting:
– C’mon, Joyce, it’s time to go.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
That alt-text tho, perfect comedic timing.
NOW KISS
(Points). That’s me in the corner! That’s me in the. Spot. Light.
Losing my religion!
Then Mike shows up and reveals he faked his death.
Joe: WHAT, WHY!?
Mike: Just to interrupt moments like this.
Or Hallucination Mike shows up to interrupt which causes Amber to interrupt accidentally.
Having seen the glimpses of Joe’s real character behind the fuckboy smarm. I am fully behind him being the one to truly help Joyce through this.
Joe always had a good heart. We can see this in his long-standing friendship with Danny. It’s just that due to his role models growing up he never really knew how to (or that he HAD to) form equally beneficial and understanding relationships with women beyond mutual sexual gratification.
He also gets upset when Danny doesn’t share his values around sex. A good heart but under several layers of smarm.
I think Joe will need as much help with his issues as Joyce does. He thinks he’s incapable of having a real relationship.
Amber “I’m still here, you know ?”
I’ve shipped Joyce and Joe since the beginning because they both bring out the best in each other. But I teared up a little at this one.
Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE VIDEO ADS WITH NO “X”?? I’m trying to type a comment here, and a video is taking up 3/4 of my screen every 15 seconds. This used to not be a thing.
I cleared my browser data (cookies, history, etc) and that seems to have taken care of the massive video pop up for now.
You must be on mobile.
Tell your browser to load the ‘desktop version’ of the site. There’s no difference except the giant video doesn’t pop up.
Damn. Joe is going to make such a good husband when he grows up y’all.
Damnit Joe, I swear after we show you some media depicting positive platonic male-female relationships, we’re gonna make a half-decent person outta you!
Oh man. Do you have some recommendations?
Hunchback of Notre Dame, to start with…
Oh……oh damn…Joe…don’t give me hope like that you human you.
Now kith
Joe showing Joyce that just because there isn’t a big man in a book telling her right from wrong doesn’t mean she personally doesn’t know right from wrong. She always knew deep down under all the conditioning. And I think deep down she knows Joe is a good person too, or else she wouldn’t confide in him like she does.
Also what are the chances amber heard any of that and thus knows Joyce is an atheist now, or do ya think she went straight back to whatever game she’s playing
Look, Praetorium isn’t gonna queue itself. Joyce and Joe’s weird conversation can wait.
THIS is the cost of telling someone their whole life: “You don’t matter, you can’t be moral just to be a good person. Any good thing you’ve ever done is because of God.”
She is in such pain.
That was always one of more quiet-but-horrifying things growing up in a church. I’m glad that Dorothy had the chance to call that out last semester.
I’m so thick, I just got this. He’s telling her that person, who did believe in God, and Heaven, and Hell, existed (and mattered), and the fact that she’s a different person doesn’t make her past self less important. I knew the past tense mattered, but couldn’t quite wrap my mind around it.
Thank you. You and AntJ I think have the right of it. Contemplating Joe’s choice has filled my day.
Is it weird to ship Joyce and Joe? Because I’m definitely shipping Joyce and Joe
It’s never been more right.
Can’t believe Joyce wasn’t real this whole time
NOW KISS!!!!11ONE