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You have to be at least three standard deviatons off from the mean. Between Nosferatu and Carmilla (she was scary to SOME people, I think) lies the dreaded unscary valley.
Maybe this will be good for the S.S. Joeyce. Joe can see that looks aren’t everything and maybe Joyce /could/ like him for being something more than being a McBeef. If Joe can see Sal seeing something in Danny like, maybe *maybe* he can extrapolate.
On that note, I haven’t seen any of the Slipshines, but I sure hope the characters in them were wise enough to brush their teeth and wash out their mouths before performing oral sex!
It’s a little more ambiguous than that because it’s implied Amber may have just given up at the end to let Sal kill her….which is all kinds of uncomfortable to think about for both of them.
Yeah, I’ll admit that I was originally rooting for “close boy+girl friendship, not romantic” when this whole thing started, because we don’t get a lot of that in American media.
It can still happen I think. Part of the reason the dynamic has worked so far is because they work well as friends. Even if it transfers over to something more romantic I don’t think we’ll lose that energy. The real problem is there aren’t really that many relationships to show in the comic so far. Most of the guys don’t hang out with the girls except for Walky. Joe’s totally sex obsessed so there’s not really much to work with for close platonic friendships.
Yeah I think it’s just that a lot of the main dynamics between characters have been romantic and Sal and Danny have been each other’s primary dynamic since the timeskip.
So you’ll see Joe/Dina talk about stuff in biology class, but Joe’s “main” relationships are with Danny and Joyce
Yeah I was pretty adamant it’d never happen. There’s no drama since they already get along so well, it’s like Danny getting rewarded for outgrowing his oldest white knight behaviour (where the hell did this come from?).
It’s times like these I remember I am not a professional writer for over two decades who intimately understands these character dynamics through being the one who made them.
sure, that’s how Joe might see it, but within this story Sal is a fleshed-out character with agency, not an empty hotness signifier.
…re-read the whole sal+danny tag just now, and i really don’t see how this relationship (which has been foreshadowed for a while) can be reduced to the sort of trope you describe. Danny has been a bit of a jerk at times but he’s been super decent towards Sal herself, except for a couple inappropriate comments about her physique early on. i don’t remember him being white-knightish to other characters, but he hasn’t had that attitude towards Sal.
this arc might be less for the benefit of Danny (who doesn’t seem especially unhappy with singlehood) and more for Sal’s. So far she’s the one whose story is getting some serious mileage out of this.
Danny at the start of the comic was a bit of a twerp about the women in his life. He never tried to pressure Dorothy into giving up on Yale so much as he acted the way he did because he had this big romantic fantasy as his Wife’s Husband and Dorothy was part of that, so eventually she’d realize for herself that Yale is stupid and love conquers all.
Then later he lies about why he didn’t want to sleep with Billie by saying “I didn’t want to take advantage of her!” like that’s just the default state (his actual reasoning was sensible of course, it’s that he used that specific lie) and then later when Dorothy came to ask about borrowing his shoes for Walky, Danny made it this weird test where Dorothy had to choose between the shoes or interviewing him about Amazi-Girl and he all but states he did it because he wanted to prove Dorothy would give up Walky for her ambitions.
Then he starts dating Amazi-Girl, and while we now recognize Amber and AG as plural at the time of writing she really was Amber in a mask, or a fantasy she created to cope with life, and Danny was all in on that until he finally realized Amber was genuinely suffering and it wasn’t just fun kinky superhero girlfriend time.
“White knight”, in that someone is trying to be extra special nice to girls so they’ll sleep with him, is the wrong term, but I meant it more that Danny in the first four-ish years of the comic exhibited a lot of self-absorbed and delusional thought processes regarding how he processed romantic relationships. He’d throw himself into them assuming it’d all work out and that any problem will be overcome as long as his fantasy narrative continues. Danny’s long since overcome this behaviour, the final punctuation is, I think, in how he and Ethan had a fight at the hospital where Danny would normally submit and instead he stood up for himself.
Which then gets me to Sal.
Danny from day one has approached Sal without any kind of expectation the way he did with Amber and probably Ethan too once he figured what that was about. He is uninterested in dating her, ergo by the time he was freed up for that he had already established a friendship with her based on mutually hanging out and being real at a pace they both appreciated, since neither of them really had that with someone else. Danny never came at her thinking about what they were supposed to be, and that’s what Sal needed in someone other than Marcie.
Tying this all up, and I went into a longer and more rambling take on this a while ago, but my initial perception of Danny and Sal hypothetically getting together was “Danny outgrew being a Nice Guy and now gets a girlfriend”, and I came to realize that thought process came from wanting to avoid the Nice Guy narrative so hard I was trying to say that a guy who used to kind of have those same thoughts growing up and becoming a better and more mature person and then dating someone after that character development was “rewarding him for not being a Nice Guy anymore”, and I’ve realized that was really stupid because I’m basically saying that Danny isn’t allowed to date girls anymore because otherwise that’s “a Nice Guy narrative.”
This is why I am not a professional writer, because I think dumb things.
I agree with this for the most part. Especially concerning Danny’s relationship with Dorothy which was probably him at his worst. Makes sense for the start of the comic since he hadn’t developed at all.
But I do have to say that shoe thing was totally unfair to him. Dorothy was asking for too much from her ex just because they were still technically friends. She chose to end that relationship and it’s hugely selfish to then expect favors from him to solve problems she created and advance her ambitions. Danny’s nice but there is such a thing as being too nice and helping her there was. Walky should have had two pairs of shoes.
Also for a long time Danny wasn’t aware AG and Amber were the same person and even when he found out neither of them were fully aware of the disassociation aspect and frankly Amber just kind of made the rules up as she went along and expected Danny to get it instead of explaining it *Not that she really could*
hey it’s cool, i love it that people here take this story so seriously and i appreciate the effort you went to. i admit i don’t remember a lot of the early stories, so i only have vague memories of those events you describe, so, no notes.
one extra thought i’ve had in the meantime (while buying groceries) is that under this framing, Danny must be getting “more” out of dating Sal than she out of dating him. social capital, sure, but beyond that (pretty hollow) value, it’s not at all clear who in this story is a catch for whom. Danny’s a pretty awesome person, i think. at least from what we’ve seen of him lately.
anyway, i hadn’t realized you were shaking your head at your past self, your original post makes more sense now lol ^^
also also you’re a bit hard on yourself, being a thoughtful and insightful reader (which you are) who sometimes gets something wrong (and readily admits it) doesn’t make you a bad writer? i don’t know that you are a writer, mind. well, aside from all the thoughtful and insightful comments
The difference is that most of those commenters do realize that opposite gender relationships can be non-sexual… they just don’t WANT it to be in that case.
(Actually I’m guessing most of the JoJo shippers would be more interested in the romance and relationship than the sex, but that’s how it ties into this thread, so.)
Sure, but when Danny’s story ends with “… and then she kissed me.” I don’t blame Joe for running with that. My apologies to anyone who wants to do more platonic kissing.
I really wish multishipping and the understanding of ‘I don’t expect or even necessarily want this to be canon, but I like playing with this dynamic’ were more common. Sometimes there’s a relationship you don’t think would actually work, but has one particular aspect that’s really fun to think about and work with. Sometimes the relationship is clearly a trainwreck, but is a really compelling trainwreck that’s fun to explore. Sometimes you just think it’d be hot and/or funny to pair these two characters up.
(For an example of the first: Sal/Carla obviously isn’t gonna work. Sal is too straight, and Sal seems to want sex in her romantic relationships where Carla’s a sex-repulsed ace. Totally incompatible orientations. At the same time, while ‘what would Linda think’ shouldn’t be the only factor in a Sal or Walky ship, there’s something I really enjoy about Sal introducing her girlfriend to the parents and them having to deal with all the unexamined biases and the fact that Carla’s every bit as rebellious and uninterested in what authority figures think of her as Sal, but is also a tech heiress whose social clout FAR eclipses the Walkertons. I enjoy Sal and Carla’s dynamic in general, but that particular aspect is what I’d write a fic about because Carla would DESTROY Linda.)
I don’t write nearly fast enough to commit to anything, but with my longstanding interest in this series it seems more likely than not to happen EVENTUALLY.
Well yeah he’s not oblivious now, Sal made a move.
Sal kissing him on the cheek suddenly made him realize he was talking to the absurdly hot motorcycle girl who used to beat people up on the reg with Amazi-Girl.
Maybe. Or maybe he’s been at least partly aware for awhile, but too frightened into denial to address it. He wasn’t showing it right after the kiss, so not showing it before doesn’t mean he was oblivious then.
Sal’s afraid of affectionate gestures that turn out to be fronts for manipulation, except Danny’s in full Deer in Headlights mode and can’t really make any kind of gesture so all she has to do is sufficiently bully him to get used to the whole “being open and affectionate around someone” thing.
And then I went to Willis’s Twitter to see if we were finally free of the Screaming Jesus Bondage Face 9CL thread and the ‘gay people just haven’t met the right Straight Love Interest yet!’ storyline that has been running the last THREE MONTHS, happy Pride. (Yes, bisexuals exist. No, that word has not been uttered, or any sentiment like it, at any point in the last three months. Go see the thread for yourself if you think it deserves the benefit of the doubt.)
Is there a trope name for willful ignorance towards a intense love interest so we can use this strip as a page image on TV tropes. Right now Danny is reminding me of Fred from the mystery interview incorporated version of Scooby-Doo or that resident evil chrisposting meme version of Chris Redfield always friend zoning all his romantic interests.
Yeah but the whole point of Danny and Sal’s interactions last chapter was that Danny actually was completely as straightforward and honest as he appeared, and his stated intent was in making her feel better. By the end Sal understood that his persistent kindness towards her wasn’t a front for emotional blackmail and that Sal attempting to reject that kindness by making it into a transaction or just flat out refusing the flowers wasn’t going to make Danny turn on her.
I definitely think he could have had a crush on her while doing so, but their little storyline last chapter was really clear that Danny’s current actions were entirely motivated by his stated intent to make her happy since he had noticed she was upset without her bike.
My read on Danny’s actions there was 1) Crush definitely EXISTS and was a partial motive (between the bike and the immediate follow-up flowers, there was A Lot, and Danny usually reserves these Big Dramatic Gestures that tend to be overwhelming for people he likes romantically,) but 2) The gifts were sort of a ‘hey, I’m interested in you, but if you’re not, no big deal, and you can take the gifts without me reading it as romantic if you’d like’ gesture. Putting his interest out there, but not expecting anything in return.
Which is growth from how he handled the big dramatic gesture with Dorothy, while still giving room for tension in this relationship as it potentially turns romantic because Sal’s trauma and defense mechanisms aren’t going away just because it’s Danny. He’s going to have to stay conscious of how his romcom tendencies can come off as too big not to have a catch (and make sure he DOESN’T unconsciously have a catch there,) she’s going to have to choose to trust him that they don’t. Plus the inevitable Linda Issue. But they can also have their very sweet dynamic together that they’ve had hanging out platonically, because that doesn’t have to change even if they’re banging.
I think Danny’s actions last chapter and Danny having a crush on Sal are two things, because I really think the point of last chapter was that Danny was completely sincere and honest with zero hidden intention. If he was into her but treated it as “I’m just being nice!” then that’s a level of dishonesty that I think cuts into Sal’s trust in him. Not that it’s wrong for Danny to have a crush on her and also want to do right by her as a friend, but that I think Sal herself would perceive it as emotional manipulation.
Which is to say that while Danny could definitely have had a crush on her and that motivated him to do what he did, I don’t think there was any expectation out of it, since romantic expectations were a defining feature of him for the last decade. “Putting it out there”, I think, is something if Danny wanted to do at that point, he would have said so.
Admittedly, hard to say unless it comes up. The way they’d been talking about the flowers before he bought them suggests to me the romantic element was something on his mind and that Sal picked up on (because flowers, being a traditionally romantic gesture,) but I could see the bike being genuinely a friend thing (or at least, intended as a friend thing but he does have a crush.)
That said, I also WANT a degree of character drama where they haven’t worked through all their insecurities before entering a romantic relationship, because there’s plenty of genuinely interesting storylines from trying to navigate a relationship when trauma’s in the way. (And not nearly enough stories about ‘lasting trauma does not go away because love, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have a functional relationship even with the trauma causing problems.’) Sal’s still going to be insecure about if her partner’s manipulating her no matter what, because Linda, so I’d see ‘recognizing Danny had potential romantic intent but still totally accepted a no’ as a better sign than ‘Danny had no romantic intent whatsoever’ there. (And either way, Danny’s still making big enough moves that he’s going to have to be careful because Sal will still have that issue. Danny’s romcom thing is also one of those characterization pieces I expect he’ll have to keep in check longterm, just in general, because it’s become a problem with EVERY romantic relationship he’s floated, including Ethan just pre-timeskip. He was too caught up in the ‘I’m gonna confess’ to keep in mind ‘Ethan is REALLY traumatized by this and does deeply care about/is maybe in love with his and Amber’s shitty friend, I should tread carefully there even if I don’t like Mike.’)
I always thought “willful ignorance” was just a saying for people in such deep denial that they just convince themselves of not knowing to the point where they seem oblivious.
Oh yeah, not trying to jump down your throat saying this since I know exactly what you’re actually saying, but “friend zone” is a pretty loaded term given its origins as essentially a way for dudes to whine that girls don’t like them back for being So Nice.
I reiterate that I know you mean it as simply as “Person A likes Person B, but Person B doesn’t like them back”, I just wanted to point this out since using it casually can get conflated with its roots.
You know I just thought about how happy Linda would be at the thought of Sal dating a white boy and I kind of hate how quickly I thought of that but also now it kind of ruins Sal x Danny just a little bit.
If this gets serious I think a lot of the drama’s gonna be based in how other people treat Sal for opening up to the dorky ukelele guy, and how that betrays the image everyone just decided she had to follow.
Sal dating someone her parents approve of is the main course.
Y…you mean Linda, right? The idea of Sal being shitty to Danny because he’s bi is wildly out of character, but Linda…I mean, I think she’d probably couch it in passive-aggressive faux acceptance, rather than outright homophobia, but yeah.
Linda looks down on the Wilcoxes for not being as well off as she is.
The Wilcoxes berate Danny for getting involved with “people like them”.
Linda takes offense and starts arguing with them.
The argument escalates into one of those cartoon fight dust clouds.
Charles, on the sidelines, almost hints that he might congratulate Sal and Danny, but at just the right moment Linda pops out of the dust cloud, grabs him by the wrist, and drags him in.
I think Linda can think of plenty of reasons to disapprove of Danny:
1. Unmotivated. He was totally planning on being First Husband and had no personal ambitions beyond “keep Dorothy” at the start of the school year; he’s been finding himself a bit more but I don’t think Linda will see any of that.
2. She’ll either believe that being bi means he’s closeted gay, or super-promiscuous. Or both. I could see her telling Sal not to come crying to her when he gives her AIDS in the heat of an argument (despite things like Prep, and monogamy, and that juat being an utterly vile thing to think, let alone say).
3. The ukelele. Either Sal is going for a wannabe musician? He’s probably a drug-addled loser. Or Sal is going out with somebody with such poor taste he thinks the ukelele is a good instrument to take up playing? Well, he likes Sal so of course he’s a moron with no sense of taste.
4. No backbone. Despite Charles being cardboard, I can see her despising Danny for being a pushover. (I kinda suspect she despises Charles and he in part doesn’t stick up for Sal because time Linda spends berating her is time she isn’t spending berating him…)
5. When they break up, Walky will need to date Sal, and he’s Linda’s precious golden child and she wants better for him His friends: Joe is Amber’s stepbrother, and Amber is facing a court case for assault and her father kidnapped Walky. Clearly Danny hangs out with dangerous individuals.
Nothing Sal does will ever be good enough for Linda. If she dated Jason, he’d be too Black. Although she’d probably say that given the time he spends building his muscles, his going into Law is probably to get him out of the trouble he’ll get himself into being a general thug. Think of a person, she will find something wrong with them. If nothing else if they want to have a serious relationship with Sal she will believe their judgement is seriously flawed.
The only way I’d find Linda approving of Sal’s boyfriend remotely plausible is if it becomes a horrible racist interplay while also meeting Lucy. Even then, I wouldn’t bet one way or the other.
So between Danny dannying it up and Joe trying his best to Joe it up to avoid feels and Sal being too chicken for doors… I think this is the beginning of a very Danny relationship
Alright I will accept the hat as part of your new look or whatever, Danny, but Jesus, if you aren’t going to a formal event why are you putting on a damn necktie?
I mean, he’s allowed to wear whatever he wants the same way I’m technically allowed to wear a tuxedo to the gym but that doesn’t stop it from being a bizarre fashion choice for a young man who is (presumably) just going to class today and not a job or anything that requires a tie.
This is genuinely sweet; we all occasionally meet someone and the biggest barrier to doing anything is knowing that they are totally out of your league (at least in our own minds)!
Walky’s description should be “Sal’s absurdly hot twin brother” as a result.
Because, you know, circular definitions are a thing that I find hilarious.
I may be the only one, tho.
I can’t stop thinking that Danny’s new hat fits him much better than his old one. It’s really a part of a great style now! Joe’s reaction is pretty adorable and he’s finally able to point out how Danny knows what’s going on and is afraid of it. I just hope this will lead Joe to be a great wingman for Danny and not a source of terrible advice.
I’m glad Danny isn’t that oblivious and he’s figured out that Sal is into him. For me, I’d like to hope a girl giving me a gift and kissing me would be enough for me to realize she’s into me, but I feel like there’s a very good chance I’d still not figure it out I’d assume she’s just being friendly or something.
An inferior version of this strip would’ve had Joe say “Nooo, this can’t happen, I’M the one the hotties go for,” and cue existential crisis. But Joe’s never been like that. Maybe he treats sexual interactions as a game, but at least the game is not a zero-sum one.
I think they’re mostly fine choices, just a lot to wear all at once.
That said, nobody really wants to wear a tie and they’re disease sponges that don’t get laundered enough. They always come off a try-hard affectation or an obligation for a job in my eyes.
I absolutely hate ties, they have no actual purpose as clothing, and I would be very happy if they fell out of fashion. The only time I wear them is when I have to, such as part of my uniform (military), or at a formal event.
Ah, so he would have made his move and not even pretended this was a friendship if the girl in question was uglier? Wow. Tight race these days between Danny and Walky for who’s the most misogynist piece of shit in the strip.
Men become “better people” by parasitizing women’s lives and minds.
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HOTNESS = SCARINESS, didn’t you know
What about ugliness being equal to scariness? Because if I’m stuck being ugly then I should at least be scary.
You have to be at least three standard deviatons off from the mean. Between Nosferatu and Carmilla (she was scary to SOME people, I think) lies the dreaded unscary valley.
True. But you also have to allow for the fact that humans can adopt to almost anything.
I feel like you probably meant adapt, though your word choice is weirdly accurate as well?
Rented fingers.
Maybe this will be good for the S.S. Joeyce. Joe can see that looks aren’t everything and maybe Joyce /could/ like him for being something more than being a McBeef. If Joe can see Sal seeing something in Danny like, maybe *maybe* he can extrapolate.
…
maybe
Danny’s opinion of Sal.
Yeah, basically.
Besides Sal, what other characters here do you think would be able to perform Death by Snu Snu?
I’m not convinced Dina wouldn’t take her dinosaur thing a little too far and incorporate a lot of biting.
Which is, y’know, kinky fun if done right, but human bites can be quite dangerous if not done with care, our mouths are gross.
On that note, I haven’t seen any of the Slipshines, but I sure hope the characters in them were wise enough to brush their teeth and wash out their mouths before performing oral sex!
Amazi-Girl, and probably Amber.
Also, y’know, you’ve seen her kick the crap out of a superhero.
Wasn’t that kind of a draw?
Not really
It’s a little more ambiguous than that because it’s implied Amber may have just given up at the end to let Sal kill her….which is all kinds of uncomfortable to think about for both of them.
Here’s the strip that implies it in a rather dark conversation between Ruth and Amber.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/02-but-the-sun-still-shines/communityservice/
It doesn’t count if the hero let her do it.
It doesn’t become a draw just because you took a dive
No, it becomes an illegitimate underground fight that doesn’t count for measuring purposes.
Why would MegaloBox lie to us?
Danny has made solid points I approve of! But also Sal is totally into him and he’s been doing a good job of playing it cool.
Yeah, I’ll admit that I was originally rooting for “close boy+girl friendship, not romantic” when this whole thing started, because we don’t get a lot of that in American media.
It can still happen I think. Part of the reason the dynamic has worked so far is because they work well as friends. Even if it transfers over to something more romantic I don’t think we’ll lose that energy. The real problem is there aren’t really that many relationships to show in the comic so far. Most of the guys don’t hang out with the girls except for Walky. Joe’s totally sex obsessed so there’s not really much to work with for close platonic friendships.
Yeah I think it’s just that a lot of the main dynamics between characters have been romantic and Sal and Danny have been each other’s primary dynamic since the timeskip.
So you’ll see Joe/Dina talk about stuff in biology class, but Joe’s “main” relationships are with Danny and Joyce
We don’t, no.
But I never really thought that’s where this was going.
Yeah I was pretty adamant it’d never happen. There’s no drama since they already get along so well, it’s like Danny getting rewarded for outgrowing his oldest white knight behaviour (where the hell did this come from?).
It’s times like these I remember I am not a professional writer for over two decades who intimately understands these character dynamics through being the one who made them.
hm! interesting point! i don’t see it.
sure, that’s how Joe might see it, but within this story Sal is a fleshed-out character with agency, not an empty hotness signifier.
…re-read the whole sal+danny tag just now, and i really don’t see how this relationship (which has been foreshadowed for a while) can be reduced to the sort of trope you describe. Danny has been a bit of a jerk at times but he’s been super decent towards Sal herself, except for a couple inappropriate comments about her physique early on. i don’t remember him being white-knightish to other characters, but he hasn’t had that attitude towards Sal.
this arc might be less for the benefit of Danny (who doesn’t seem especially unhappy with singlehood) and more for Sal’s. So far she’s the one whose story is getting some serious mileage out of this.
that was unclear
*i don’t remember him being white-knightish to other characters, but having checked just now, he for sure hasn’t had that attitude towards Sal.
Well, I didn’t say it was right.
Danny at the start of the comic was a bit of a twerp about the women in his life. He never tried to pressure Dorothy into giving up on Yale so much as he acted the way he did because he had this big romantic fantasy as his Wife’s Husband and Dorothy was part of that, so eventually she’d realize for herself that Yale is stupid and love conquers all.
Then later he lies about why he didn’t want to sleep with Billie by saying “I didn’t want to take advantage of her!” like that’s just the default state (his actual reasoning was sensible of course, it’s that he used that specific lie) and then later when Dorothy came to ask about borrowing his shoes for Walky, Danny made it this weird test where Dorothy had to choose between the shoes or interviewing him about Amazi-Girl and he all but states he did it because he wanted to prove Dorothy would give up Walky for her ambitions.
Then he starts dating Amazi-Girl, and while we now recognize Amber and AG as plural at the time of writing she really was Amber in a mask, or a fantasy she created to cope with life, and Danny was all in on that until he finally realized Amber was genuinely suffering and it wasn’t just fun kinky superhero girlfriend time.
“White knight”, in that someone is trying to be extra special nice to girls so they’ll sleep with him, is the wrong term, but I meant it more that Danny in the first four-ish years of the comic exhibited a lot of self-absorbed and delusional thought processes regarding how he processed romantic relationships. He’d throw himself into them assuming it’d all work out and that any problem will be overcome as long as his fantasy narrative continues. Danny’s long since overcome this behaviour, the final punctuation is, I think, in how he and Ethan had a fight at the hospital where Danny would normally submit and instead he stood up for himself.
Which then gets me to Sal.
Danny from day one has approached Sal without any kind of expectation the way he did with Amber and probably Ethan too once he figured what that was about. He is uninterested in dating her, ergo by the time he was freed up for that he had already established a friendship with her based on mutually hanging out and being real at a pace they both appreciated, since neither of them really had that with someone else. Danny never came at her thinking about what they were supposed to be, and that’s what Sal needed in someone other than Marcie.
Tying this all up, and I went into a longer and more rambling take on this a while ago, but my initial perception of Danny and Sal hypothetically getting together was “Danny outgrew being a Nice Guy and now gets a girlfriend”, and I came to realize that thought process came from wanting to avoid the Nice Guy narrative so hard I was trying to say that a guy who used to kind of have those same thoughts growing up and becoming a better and more mature person and then dating someone after that character development was “rewarding him for not being a Nice Guy anymore”, and I’ve realized that was really stupid because I’m basically saying that Danny isn’t allowed to date girls anymore because otherwise that’s “a Nice Guy narrative.”
This is why I am not a professional writer, because I think dumb things.
I agree with this for the most part. Especially concerning Danny’s relationship with Dorothy which was probably him at his worst. Makes sense for the start of the comic since he hadn’t developed at all.
But I do have to say that shoe thing was totally unfair to him. Dorothy was asking for too much from her ex just because they were still technically friends. She chose to end that relationship and it’s hugely selfish to then expect favors from him to solve problems she created and advance her ambitions. Danny’s nice but there is such a thing as being too nice and helping her there was. Walky should have had two pairs of shoes.
Also for a long time Danny wasn’t aware AG and Amber were the same person and even when he found out neither of them were fully aware of the disassociation aspect and frankly Amber just kind of made the rules up as she went along and expected Danny to get it instead of explaining it *Not that she really could*
Oh gosh I did not think that would be that rambling
hey it’s cool, i love it that people here take this story so seriously and i appreciate the effort you went to. i admit i don’t remember a lot of the early stories, so i only have vague memories of those events you describe, so, no notes.
one extra thought i’ve had in the meantime (while buying groceries) is that under this framing, Danny must be getting “more” out of dating Sal than she out of dating him. social capital, sure, but beyond that (pretty hollow) value, it’s not at all clear who in this story is a catch for whom. Danny’s a pretty awesome person, i think. at least from what we’ve seen of him lately.
anyway, i hadn’t realized you were shaking your head at your past self, your original post makes more sense now lol ^^
also also you’re a bit hard on yourself, being a thoughtful and insightful reader (which you are) who sometimes gets something wrong (and readily admits it) doesn’t make you a bad writer? i don’t know that you are a writer, mind. well, aside from all the thoughtful and insightful comments
that being said, i do agree that this comic fails to improve the overall media landscape wrt opposite-gender friendships!
i have spoken.
Where Sal is concerned, I feel that it is far too early to rule out the possibility of drama.
We’ve gotten that with Ethan but he hasn’t been around in a while.
Yeeeep that sounds like Danny
He’s doing so much better at realizing what’s going on, though!
It’s a Hat of +3 Perception
Sal actually checks the gear’s stats beforehand
Not like she’d admit it if asked
To be fair, that was freshman moi as well. Just less self-awareness.
Honestly, he’s more perceptive and aware than I expected. Kudos.
It’ll be ok Danny. Sal doesn’t bite you know…
I mean, she could if you asked her to.
Bitey Sal? Yotomoe, you know what to do.
As someone who finds Sal very hot, I would be ecstatic if Yotomoe did more sexy Sal pieces.
Danny Logic is sound logic.
Also, panel 4 Danny is cutest Danny ever to grace this comic.
Ah Danny, the normal college freshman character.
Joe needs to learn that opposite-gender relationships can be non-sexual.
And that people can be into other people and it not be about having sex.
And yet half this comment section is furiously shipping Joe and Joyce.
I’m working on the other half.
They too will see the light.
The difference is that most of those commenters do realize that opposite gender relationships can be non-sexual… they just don’t WANT it to be in that case.
(Actually I’m guessing most of the JoJo shippers would be more interested in the romance and relationship than the sex, but that’s how it ties into this thread, so.)
I mean the sex would be interesting too, with Joyce’s hangups and all. Wonder if she’ll ever let slip that she watched his sex tape
Also, learnt that sex isn’t the boy rubbing his thingy against the girl’s belly button from his sex tape…
Not this one, though.
Sure, but when Danny’s story ends with “… and then she kissed me.” I don’t blame Joe for running with that. My apologies to anyone who wants to do more platonic kissing.
I think platonic kissing just got thrown under la bise.
Take two Internets. You probably earned them.
i think Reltzik has an silly amount of internets by now, we should switch to giving them cake emojis or something
Nooo! I still need 12,000 more internets to complete my beowulf cluster of internets!
…. I was going to call it the interinternet.
They definitely can be. Though Sal is also definitely into Danny, and I’m pretty sure Joyce and Joe would both make a good couple.
danny is going to have a good day
I feel like Panel 4 is calling out people who get on other peoples’ asses about their ships
I am so angry about people turning everything into ships. Characters share a single conversation and the fans go “OH THEY FAWKING”
I really wish multishipping and the understanding of ‘I don’t expect or even necessarily want this to be canon, but I like playing with this dynamic’ were more common. Sometimes there’s a relationship you don’t think would actually work, but has one particular aspect that’s really fun to think about and work with. Sometimes the relationship is clearly a trainwreck, but is a really compelling trainwreck that’s fun to explore. Sometimes you just think it’d be hot and/or funny to pair these two characters up.
(For an example of the first: Sal/Carla obviously isn’t gonna work. Sal is too straight, and Sal seems to want sex in her romantic relationships where Carla’s a sex-repulsed ace. Totally incompatible orientations. At the same time, while ‘what would Linda think’ shouldn’t be the only factor in a Sal or Walky ship, there’s something I really enjoy about Sal introducing her girlfriend to the parents and them having to deal with all the unexamined biases and the fact that Carla’s every bit as rebellious and uninterested in what authority figures think of her as Sal, but is also a tech heiress whose social clout FAR eclipses the Walkertons. I enjoy Sal and Carla’s dynamic in general, but that particular aspect is what I’d write a fic about because Carla would DESTROY Linda.)
ooh, please write it =)
I don’t write nearly fast enough to commit to anything, but with my longstanding interest in this series it seems more likely than not to happen EVENTUALLY.
=D
Hypothetically, this would happen on ao3?
If a fic ever happens, the comments section will know.
Exactly. Not every ship is ‘I want it to be canon’. Sometimes it’s just ‘ahahahaha, no, not for canon, but for hypotheticals sake, what could happen?’
if so, i feel like the complaint is somewhat weakened by Joe instantly calling BS and Danny agreeing.
GET OVER IT AND GET OUT THERE OR SO HELP ME I’LL BREAK THROUGH THE FOURTH WALL AND THROW YOU OUT YOUR WINDOW MYSELF.
The Salvatar* makes this better.
*(didn’t he fight the Flash)?
I thought he was the guy who painted those melty clocks
“I’ve never had reason to say this Danny but LET ME LIVE VICARIOUSLY THROUGH YOU! DO IT FOR ME!”
Frightened into denial is a lot more believable than being THAT oblivious.
For a minute there I was going to punch a hole through my screen.
Well yeah he’s not oblivious now, Sal made a move.
Sal kissing him on the cheek suddenly made him realize he was talking to the absurdly hot motorcycle girl who used to beat people up on the reg with Amazi-Girl.
Maybe. Or maybe he’s been at least partly aware for awhile, but too frightened into denial to address it. He wasn’t showing it right after the kiss, so not showing it before doesn’t mean he was oblivious then.
Listen, Joe, I might believe in everything I’m saying but that doesn’t mean i can’t also utilize it as a
COPING MECHANISM
Oh Danny, you precious little idiot. Good luck kiddo.
has danny gained… self-awareness?
FUCK’S SAKE EVERYBODY PANIC
Sal bought him a hat than grants +2 Wisdom.
He can finally roll an Insight check with a +0 bonus!
There it is, There it is he’s blowing it already. For fuck sakes Danny this better be the one where you don’t Dan it all up again
It’s a pretty good gig tbh
Sal’s afraid of affectionate gestures that turn out to be fronts for manipulation, except Danny’s in full Deer in Headlights mode and can’t really make any kind of gesture so all she has to do is sufficiently bully him to get used to the whole “being open and affectionate around someone” thing.
Well Danny loves getting dominated after all: http://www.itswalky.com/comic/bossy/
Those last two panels are just delightful on every level.
And then I went to Willis’s Twitter to see if we were finally free of the Screaming Jesus Bondage Face 9CL thread and the ‘gay people just haven’t met the right Straight Love Interest yet!’ storyline that has been running the last THREE MONTHS, happy Pride. (Yes, bisexuals exist. No, that word has not been uttered, or any sentiment like it, at any point in the last three months. Go see the thread for yourself if you think it deserves the benefit of the doubt.)
We are not.
Still, those last two panels soothe me.
i want to get off mr. legs’s wild ride
I’m not on Twitter, and I don’t read LEGSLEGSLEGSLOVECRAFTIANMOUTHLEGS the comic, but I salute Willis for his sacrifice in keeping up on it for us.
o7
Indeed. Truly, the filter of Willis Dismay is what keeps the all-consuming terror from taking hold in us all.
me, a person not in the US who has no idea how many people actually read this ridiculous comic: it’s a pretty funny thread tho
Oh, it’s a great thread and newspaper comics are dying. I’m just dismayed by the strip itself.
yep. yep yep yep
I can’t imagine it has a large readership, because despite everything my brain still believes in a just and sensible world
I haven’t related more to Danny than I do in this moment.
Same here, though this moment is exceedingly rare in my experiences. Wishing him and Sal nothing but the best though!
If that ain’t a mood from Danny I don’t know what is
Is there a trope name for willful ignorance towards a intense love interest so we can use this strip as a page image on TV tropes. Right now Danny is reminding me of Fred from the mystery interview incorporated version of Scooby-Doo or that resident evil chrisposting meme version of Chris Redfield always friend zoning all his romantic interests.
He’s not actually oblivious, though. He’s just terrified of the implications and consequences.
I think he means that Danny knows Sal is interested but he himself is too shy and panicked to say how he himself feels.
Buying her a bicycle was… a lot, though?
Yeah but the whole point of Danny and Sal’s interactions last chapter was that Danny actually was completely as straightforward and honest as he appeared, and his stated intent was in making her feel better. By the end Sal understood that his persistent kindness towards her wasn’t a front for emotional blackmail and that Sal attempting to reject that kindness by making it into a transaction or just flat out refusing the flowers wasn’t going to make Danny turn on her.
I definitely think he could have had a crush on her while doing so, but their little storyline last chapter was really clear that Danny’s current actions were entirely motivated by his stated intent to make her happy since he had noticed she was upset without her bike.
My read on Danny’s actions there was 1) Crush definitely EXISTS and was a partial motive (between the bike and the immediate follow-up flowers, there was A Lot, and Danny usually reserves these Big Dramatic Gestures that tend to be overwhelming for people he likes romantically,) but 2) The gifts were sort of a ‘hey, I’m interested in you, but if you’re not, no big deal, and you can take the gifts without me reading it as romantic if you’d like’ gesture. Putting his interest out there, but not expecting anything in return.
Which is growth from how he handled the big dramatic gesture with Dorothy, while still giving room for tension in this relationship as it potentially turns romantic because Sal’s trauma and defense mechanisms aren’t going away just because it’s Danny. He’s going to have to stay conscious of how his romcom tendencies can come off as too big not to have a catch (and make sure he DOESN’T unconsciously have a catch there,) she’s going to have to choose to trust him that they don’t. Plus the inevitable Linda Issue. But they can also have their very sweet dynamic together that they’ve had hanging out platonically, because that doesn’t have to change even if they’re banging.
I dunno, I’m not sure I read it that way myself.
I think Danny’s actions last chapter and Danny having a crush on Sal are two things, because I really think the point of last chapter was that Danny was completely sincere and honest with zero hidden intention. If he was into her but treated it as “I’m just being nice!” then that’s a level of dishonesty that I think cuts into Sal’s trust in him. Not that it’s wrong for Danny to have a crush on her and also want to do right by her as a friend, but that I think Sal herself would perceive it as emotional manipulation.
Which is to say that while Danny could definitely have had a crush on her and that motivated him to do what he did, I don’t think there was any expectation out of it, since romantic expectations were a defining feature of him for the last decade. “Putting it out there”, I think, is something if Danny wanted to do at that point, he would have said so.
Admittedly, hard to say unless it comes up. The way they’d been talking about the flowers before he bought them suggests to me the romantic element was something on his mind and that Sal picked up on (because flowers, being a traditionally romantic gesture,) but I could see the bike being genuinely a friend thing (or at least, intended as a friend thing but he does have a crush.)
That said, I also WANT a degree of character drama where they haven’t worked through all their insecurities before entering a romantic relationship, because there’s plenty of genuinely interesting storylines from trying to navigate a relationship when trauma’s in the way. (And not nearly enough stories about ‘lasting trauma does not go away because love, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have a functional relationship even with the trauma causing problems.’) Sal’s still going to be insecure about if her partner’s manipulating her no matter what, because Linda, so I’d see ‘recognizing Danny had potential romantic intent but still totally accepted a no’ as a better sign than ‘Danny had no romantic intent whatsoever’ there. (And either way, Danny’s still making big enough moves that he’s going to have to be careful because Sal will still have that issue. Danny’s romcom thing is also one of those characterization pieces I expect he’ll have to keep in check longterm, just in general, because it’s become a problem with EVERY romantic relationship he’s floated, including Ethan just pre-timeskip. He was too caught up in the ‘I’m gonna confess’ to keep in mind ‘Ethan is REALLY traumatized by this and does deeply care about/is maybe in love with his and Amber’s shitty friend, I should tread carefully there even if I don’t like Mike.’)
I always thought “willful ignorance” was just a saying for people in such deep denial that they just convince themselves of not knowing to the point where they seem oblivious.
Oh yeah, not trying to jump down your throat saying this since I know exactly what you’re actually saying, but “friend zone” is a pretty loaded term given its origins as essentially a way for dudes to whine that girls don’t like them back for being So Nice.
I reiterate that I know you mean it as simply as “Person A likes Person B, but Person B doesn’t like them back”, I just wanted to point this out since using it casually can get conflated with its roots.
You know I just thought about how happy Linda would be at the thought of Sal dating a white boy and I kind of hate how quickly I thought of that but also now it kind of ruins Sal x Danny just a little bit.
Yyyyyeeeeepppp.
If this gets serious I think a lot of the drama’s gonna be based in how other people treat Sal for opening up to the dorky ukelele guy, and how that betrays the image everyone just decided she had to follow.
Sal dating someone her parents approve of is the main course.
Yeah, though she’s also probably going to be shitty to him because I get the impression the Walkertons are considerably better off than the Wilcoxes.
Or as soon as she finds out that he’s bi
Y…you mean Linda, right? The idea of Sal being shitty to Danny because he’s bi is wildly out of character, but Linda…I mean, I think she’d probably couch it in passive-aggressive faux acceptance, rather than outright homophobia, but yeah.
Linda looks down on the Wilcoxes for not being as well off as she is.
The Wilcoxes berate Danny for getting involved with “people like them”.
Linda takes offense and starts arguing with them.
The argument escalates into one of those cartoon fight dust clouds.
Charles, on the sidelines, almost hints that he might congratulate Sal and Danny, but at just the right moment Linda pops out of the dust cloud, grabs him by the wrist, and drags him in.
I think Linda can think of plenty of reasons to disapprove of Danny:
1. Unmotivated. He was totally planning on being First Husband and had no personal ambitions beyond “keep Dorothy” at the start of the school year; he’s been finding himself a bit more but I don’t think Linda will see any of that.
2. She’ll either believe that being bi means he’s closeted gay, or super-promiscuous. Or both. I could see her telling Sal not to come crying to her when he gives her AIDS in the heat of an argument (despite things like Prep, and monogamy, and that juat being an utterly vile thing to think, let alone say).
3. The ukelele. Either Sal is going for a wannabe musician? He’s probably a drug-addled loser. Or Sal is going out with somebody with such poor taste he thinks the ukelele is a good instrument to take up playing? Well, he likes Sal so of course he’s a moron with no sense of taste.
4. No backbone. Despite Charles being cardboard, I can see her despising Danny for being a pushover. (I kinda suspect she despises Charles and he in part doesn’t stick up for Sal because time Linda spends berating her is time she isn’t spending berating him…)
5.
When they break up, Walky will need to date Sal, and he’s Linda’s precious golden child and she wants better for himHis friends: Joe is Amber’s stepbrother, and Amber is facing a court case for assault and her father kidnapped Walky. Clearly Danny hangs out with dangerous individuals.Nothing Sal does will ever be good enough for Linda. If she dated Jason, he’d be too Black. Although she’d probably say that given the time he spends building his muscles, his going into Law is probably to get him out of the trouble he’ll get himself into being a general thug. Think of a person, she will find something wrong with them. If nothing else if they want to have a serious relationship with Sal she will believe their judgement is seriously flawed.
She’s a horrible person.
I know you mean Jacob, but Linda probably wouldn’t approve of Jason either.
Nothing Sal does will ever be good enough for Linda. Sal is the scapegoat in her narcissistic world.
The only way I’d find Linda approving of Sal’s boyfriend remotely plausible is if it becomes a horrible racist interplay while also meeting Lucy. Even then, I wouldn’t bet one way or the other.
What’s worse is that when Sal realizes her mom approves, it’ll probably ruin it in-universe, too.
Imagine how bad Sal/Tony would go here
I feel you, Danny.
Ditto
Maybe he really is dead after all.
Joe speaks for all of us and sometimes thats how you have to speak to someone, especially Danny
Oh hai 18-year-old me, I didn’t see you there.
No, that’s 30-mumble year old me…
Face it, tiger…
(Or whatever other animal is “proportional” to you)Sal want the D.
The “D” in this case referring to Danny.
EXACTLY!
(and I’m missing a “S” in “wants”)
Honesty is the best policy. Mostly.
This is one of the funniest Danny and Joe interactions in quite some time.
4th to 5th panels: What the flip-oh thank the gods Danny’s not that dumb.
Also welcome back, Dapper Danny.
I was about to be very mad at him until I saw the last panel, and now all I can think is “yeah that’s fair”.
So between Danny dannying it up and Joe trying his best to Joe it up to avoid feels and Sal being too chicken for doors… I think this is the beginning of a very Danny relationship
Alright I will accept the hat as part of your new look or whatever, Danny, but Jesus, if you aren’t going to a formal event why are you putting on a damn necktie?
Is Danny not allowed to wear a necktie just because he wants to?
I mean, he’s allowed to wear whatever he wants the same way I’m technically allowed to wear a tuxedo to the gym but that doesn’t stop it from being a bizarre fashion choice for a young man who is (presumably) just going to class today and not a job or anything that requires a tie.
In the back of his mind, he’s just being ready for his own funeral?
maybe he has some sort of fantasy in mind where Sal grabs him by the tie to kiss him?
maybe Willis has that sort of fantasy in mind?
It’s fashion bro
This is genuinely sweet; we all occasionally meet someone and the biggest barrier to doing anything is knowing that they are totally out of your league (at least in our own minds)!
From now on, Sal’s description in the Cast page should be just “Walky’s absurdly hot twin sister”.
“… who likes musical hat-wearing geeks.”
…or not? i find it kind of demeaning
Walky’s description should be “Sal’s absurdly hot twin brother” as a result.
Because, you know, circular definitions are a thing that I find hilarious.
I may be the only one, tho.
That’s not particularly circular. It reduces them both to their physical appearance, but those descriptions are accurate and not confusing.
it’s circular because in order to have one defined, you must know the other, which is defined by the first
I can’t stop thinking that Danny’s new hat fits him much better than his old one. It’s really a part of a great style now! Joe’s reaction is pretty adorable and he’s finally able to point out how Danny knows what’s going on and is afraid of it. I just hope this will lead Joe to be a great wingman for Danny and not a source of terrible advice.
Why not both?
A great wingman that gives a lot of terrible advice? Like suggesting an absurd courtship dance? Interesting…
a wingman whose advice is really for the birds?
Danny, you must fulfill your destiny. Go be Sal’s new motorcycle.
*eyebrows waggle*
I’m glad Danny isn’t that oblivious and he’s figured out that Sal is into him. For me, I’d like to hope a girl giving me a gift and kissing me would be enough for me to realize she’s into me, but I feel like there’s a very good chance I’d still not figure it out I’d assume she’s just being friendly or something.
Danny is clearing the “must jump this high to not be oblivious” bar recently established by Walky.
This feels like this shouldn’t be an accomplishment, but for Danny, I think it’s an accomplishment.
I suspect he’s been aware for awhile but the “frightened out of my mind” part was keeping him from openly acknowledging it.
An inferior version of this strip would’ve had Joe say “Nooo, this can’t happen, I’M the one the hotties go for,” and cue existential crisis. But Joe’s never been like that. Maybe he treats sexual interactions as a game, but at least the game is not a zero-sum one.
Oh good, he does know.
I read panel 3 in South Park Kyle’s Mom’s voice.
Should I be concerned that Danny’s outfit of vest, tie, and hat is something I would wear?
I think they’re mostly fine choices, just a lot to wear all at once.
That said, nobody really wants to wear a tie and they’re disease sponges that don’t get laundered enough. They always come off a try-hard affectation or an obligation for a job in my eyes.
I absolutely hate ties, they have no actual purpose as clothing, and I would be very happy if they fell out of fashion. The only time I wear them is when I have to, such as part of my uniform (military), or at a formal event.
True, but then, more true.
pithy.
Heh, this reminds me a lot of my boyfriend right before we started dating. I love these two so hard
Danny is the embodiment of “well mark me down as scared AND aroused” lmaoooo
Isn’t scaroused an actual thing?
Ah, so he would have made his move and not even pretended this was a friendship if the girl in question was uglier? Wow. Tight race these days between Danny and Walky for who’s the most misogynist piece of shit in the strip.
Men become “better people” by parasitizing women’s lives and minds.