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She seems to be of an age to pick up early Jennifer Knapp. Melissa Etheridge is a good choice. Third Day has bangers on most albums – Black Crowes are a good equivalent. Newsboys can be equivalent to TMBG for some albums. Scarecrow and Tinmen equivalent would be a boy band. Audio Adrenaline leads to Collective Soul. Jars of Clay is pretty secular but Live is a good choice. DC Talk’s closest equivalent is probably Run DMC.
Still, some Christian music really is excellent, though. Newsboys Going Public album – Elle G (about suicide), Lights Out (about apocalyptic beliefs), Truth and Consequences (about sexism and premarital sex). Some of their later albums get odd, hence the TMBG comparison – Take Me To Your Leader the album especially.
“Take Me To Your Leader” got me into The Newsboys! Because the cover was whacky and stood out to me in the catalog.
Agree with your comparisons. Reminds me of a flowchart in my youth group room that went the opposite way – “like this secular band! Try this Christian band!”
Yeah, Joyce has no reason to find change difficult or to be unaware of how to go looking for non-religious music. Nothing in her upbringing, neurodivergence, or traumatic recent history would at all have an impact on changing something she clearly fixated on.
My comment wasn’t meant to trivialize Joyce’s struggle, just suggest the solution would be simple. This is a problem with many simple solutions. A lot of Joyce’s challenges have had common and mundane solutions to what seemed big at the time but were solved very conveniently.
I know tone is hard to convey into text. I’ll try harder next time to articulate my words to not be read in the worst possible light.
A few years ago, one of the local bus drivers would have his Christian pandora radio on and this song came up a few times…not exactly my cup of tea, but Steely Dan was a better poison.
True, though I don’t know if Joe is familiar with their older songs, which are the only ones I can confirm rule.
I assume the newer ones also rule, but who knows (besides Willis) if Joe is familiar with their earlier work.
Minutes to Midnight was the last really good album with Chester imo (my definition of good is “I liked 50%+ of the songs.”), but I really like the new album with their new singer. Nothing really wrong with the other albums after MTM, they’re just really not my cup of tea, not even the songs that blew up off of them.
Ummm maybe the Larry Norman songs I’ve heard haven’t been representative? But the web says it’s a Charlie Peacock song and I’m not especially motivated to go search out more…
I mean all of those are a lot more recent than DC Talk so *shrug* At this point in the sliding timescale she probably would have found them by listening to her parents’ old music (kind of like my experience with like Petra, Amy Grant etc.)
It’s kind of weird, afaik there haven’t really been any successors to the non-ccm christian music from when I was a kid, in like the late 2000s/early 2010s there was a big die-off and hardly anything other than praise and worship was left. I think maybe it got crushed between the stigma against listening to anything other than like hillsong 24/7 from some quarters and the stigma against christian music from others. I don’t think anything ever really replaced that but maybe it’s just because I’m not in that kind of crowd anymore (thank god). At the very least, there certainly hasn’t been anyone I can think of like anywhere near as popular as relient k, switchfoot, newsboys, anberlin etc. back in the day, and all of those were probably a step down from like the previous generations of popular christian artists.
Wider cultural die-off of Christian fundamentalist influence, surely. The satanic panic cratered, creationist bullshit was a niche losing ground to friggin’ Pokemon, and it only got easier for anyone to listen to anything for zero dollars.
Maybe, although christian fundie culture still seems pretty influential in like politics and stuff. Looking back though there does seem to be a trend of christian artists having less and less mainstream appeal and smaller and smaller audiences even within the christian demographic.
Until literally 2 months ago, I was only familiar with Relient K from the song “Be My Escape”, which received mainstream radio play and was not immediately obviously religious, and I always quite liked.
2 months ago it happened to come up in conversation with a friend who was raised evangelical, at which point I found out they’re in fact a Christian band. I asked said friend to point me to what he would consider their signature early work, which is how I wound up listening to “My Girlfriend”, and holy shit. I then had to explain that “Be My Escape” is distinctly not like that.
I still like “Be My Escape”, but I would definitely give that up if it meant I could erase their other songs from existence.
Relient k got progressively less preachy over their career, ‘Be my escape’ was from their 4th album by which they had hardly anything explicity christian (that was probably just about the most explicitly christian it got on that album). There were still traces of explicit christianity here and there on the odd song throughout their career but for the most part it remained a very minor theme only referenced sideways from about the third album on.
What I am saying is please don’t erase their other songs from existence they were my favourite band for all of my teens and my gateway into actual music and I am very nostalgic about them.
They still are, though much less prolific! And this may just be me, but I can’t think of Relient K without thinking of Five Iron Frenzy.
FIF came out the gate kicking ass, and they kick ass to this day. The opening track of their first album goes for the throat in its criticism of Manifest Destiny and Christian brutality toward Native American populations. And while their pronounced goofy side surfaces in songs about the joys of Canada, heavy-metal mullets, and nerd pride, they also punch up hard against conservative book bans, music-industry hypocrisy, gun violence, police brutality, the abuses of capitalism, and more. Their latest album, “Until This Shakes Apart,” is essentially a savage thirteen-track takedown of Evangelical Trumpism.
Nearly three decades of sharp-witted, high-integrity brass rock. Can’t recommend FIF enough.
God, Joe and Joyce’s dynamic can be so damn fun. I love that he’s so willing to razz her about some of this stuff, but it’s still clearly from a place of love.
My favorite is Bette Midler – From A Distance.
God is watching from a distance.
Kinda like how my mom would watch me and my sis when we swam in the pool as little little kids.
RIP Sis.
…I am so glad I didn’t grow up in a household that fetishized Christianity like that. I’m a Christian, I go to church, I’m happy with my faith and enjoy sharing it with people… THAT is weird though and I’m so glad I was never exposed to that nonsense as a child.
I grew up evangelical and generally a lot of the stuff I had was Christian Shit, including the video games, but music was not one of those things. No, my Christian Music Phase was entirely accidental: I got into midwest emo and post-hardcore circa 2005.
Oh hey it’s my childhood music. The cassette this was on was played on near repeat.
Also permissible was kool 105 the oldies station.
Otherwise in car trips it was forced memorization and recitation of bible verses. unless there was sports on the radio in which case mom listened to the sports at very very high volume.
The cassette (and later ‘pick a CD’) option was how I got to control the audio for the longest in a go and not have dramatic variance in things like the volume level as is standard when commercials exist.
damn i know nothing about fundies but it seems like catholicism and christianity had the a horrid co parenting arangment that left their kids traumatized
My wife enjoys some of Richard Rohr’s work and was telling me the other day about he considers the radical traditionalist catholics and fundamentalist evangelicals to be the same thing so I guess you’re pretty on the money there!
Her parents probably wouldn’t let her listen to Jewel because the name contains “Jew” and Carol is… I’m trying to think of a non-ableist word for what Carol is.
Ah, yes – DC Talk. When I worked at Barnes & Noble, I was shelving one of their books. Called Jesus Freaks, it was a modern day “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs,” telling uplifting tales of people who died horrific deaths for Jesus. Wheee.
Out of curiosity, I read part of it. One of the stories I read in it featured the harrowing moment-by-moment account of a Renaissance English woman dragged from her home, hauled through the streets by her neighbors, beaten, pelted with garbage and rocks, tortured, tried, and finally burnt alive.
The only part of her ordeal (other than the quite likely sxxual violation) they left out was the part where this poor martyr was KILLED BY OTHER CHRISTIANS FOR BEING THE WRONG FLAVOR OF CHRISTIAN.
I once read something by someone I usually agree with saying how ironic it was that the American Religious Right were descended from people fleeing religious persecution. And it’s, like, yes, kind of, but the history of Early Modern Britain is basically successive Christian groups taking the throne and oppessing some or all of the others. The pilgrims just didn’t want to wait for their next turn!
This seems to be something to do with True Believers in any movement. Reminds me of Orwell’s observation that, in the Spanish CIvil War, the various kinds of leftists hated each other more than they hated the Nationalists. (Maybe it was just the Communists vs. all other leftists, it’s too late in the day to check.)
C’mon Joe, hook Joyce up with some decent Dad Rock. Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC. Might need to explain that Judas Priest aren’t actually a Christian rock band though. And Joyce might flip out if you showed her the album cover of Holy Diver.
Not a Christian rock band, no, but Rob Halford is very open about his Christian faith. that an openly gay metalhead can still be deeply Christian too might be something Joyce could find comforting.
FUCK this unlocked a core memory. I can’t believe I still know all the words and that I never thought about what they said after breaking up with evangelicalism.. that uplifting chorus sure gets a horrific flavor when you connect it to the rest.
Is this like when I was a teen and my dad commented that most of Manic Street Preachers’ The Holy Bible is upbeat so long as you don’t pay attention to the lyrics?
Also I failed Gravatar Roulette because I removed a dot in my Gmail prefix bit and it then kept on not posting… I had Dina… But comments actually getting through moderation is also a good thing…
Third Eye Blind is 50-50 for “sounds depressing, is vaguely affirming” and “sounds pleasant, is deeply depressing.” The most positive track is “Motorcycle Drive-By” and it ends with a surprise.
Jump, Little Children is slightly more positive but downright obscure.
It’s been a while since I listened to some Beautiful South. Incredibly upbeat sounding songs about messy breakups and screaming rows.
Although I think my favourite “upbeat if you ignore the lyrics” song is “Happy Hour” by the Housemartins, which even has the word “happy” in its title. This is a lie, and the song is about why it’s a lie.
Maybe not, but Blind Guardian is a great gateway into metal, which I believe she can get behind, as it has some lore elements that can be studied in great detail.
Actually, fuck Joyce. I’m curious what’s on Joe’s playlist. What the fuck is this guy into, aside from vaginas? I know he’s played a couple of Mario-adjacent games, but I don’t recall any particular entertainment or hobby he’s expressed enjoyment for. He works out, fucks on occasion, hacked a game to make Mario spank his own ass, and that’s about it.
One of the recommended videos after I finished “In the light” was Leonard Cohen’s “You want it darker.” Speaking of songs with less than upbeat themes.
It’s unclear who the “you” in this song is, but it might be the God of Abraham. A dying old man at the time he wrote it, the Jewish Cohen would have a mature, perhaps cynical relationship to his god that Joyce could probably appreciate. Though our militant atheist might not be ready to appreciate ambiguity or nuance.
Leonard Cohen in his later albums has a fascinating relationship with God and religion in general. He’s one of my favorite artists because of that. Steer Your Way is probably my favorite of those sorts of songs of his.
The Second Amendment clearly states “A well-trained militant atheist, specifically and exclusively an atheist. If’st we so find yon Christian with a gun’st, thine jail fee shalt be in excess of $20”. Of course, when the Second Amendment was written, $20 was about half the Royal Treasury of England, equivalent to billions in today money.
That’s what gets to me: the dissonance between the melodies and the words. Very un-musical. We get three bars in and I’m thinking, “yup, I’m being manipulated again. Tune out.”
Remember that Sal suggested Hanson and didn’t even know the name of the song. Her tastes might be limited and basic, after she was shipped off. Though maybe basic is what Joyce needs right now.
Danny suggesting “WAP” to Joyce would would be the worst thing he ever did to Sarah.
NGL – dctalk hit different when I realised I was trans… (context: I get the distinct impression that God was waiting for me on that hill of realisation, tapping his foot and looking at his watch, and said ‘took you long enough! Did I not drop enough hints or something?’ when I turned up.)
Because that would be incredibly rude when she’s asking him to listen to the songs she used to like, so he can get a feel for what she liked about them apart from the Jesus stuff?
I dunno if it’s my ADHD, but most of the time I hear the words to music as part of the music itself, mostly devoid of meaning. Same as hearing J-Pop with the occasional English lyric. Only having the lyrics in front of me makes the sounds into words with meaning for me. (I mean, other than Disney songs for example). For example, I was mortified when I looked at the lyrics for Blurred Lines.
So honestly, if I had heard this in my formative music memory years? Yep, I would have had it on repeat. This IS really cool, musically. I get it. It’s awesome.
She’s got to get into musicals. Maybe Steven Universe.
Affirmation by Savage Garden also comes to mind, too.
If you like the music but not the lyrics, try looking for parody versions. I’d personally never want to listen to Blurred Lines when I could listen to Word Crimes (by Weird Al), for example.
Speaking as someone who was very much in Joyce’s (and her sister’s) shoes here at one point…
Linkin Park actually was pretty useful.
Also Smashmouth.
And showtunes.
All of Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog’s songs
3 Doors Down
Steppenwolf
The Mamas and the Papas
Within Temptation
Ariana Grande
I know as an autistic AMAB enby, my experience coming out of religion won’t be the same as Joyce’s will be, but if we’re at all similar in any way, Joe better get ready to have to hear WAY TOO MUCH Rush and Steely Dan as Joyce hyper-focuses on new playlists.
Also, kind of need to observe how screwed up the lyrics to so many of the songs I used to love are. Keith Green songs were my JAM back in the day, but looking back on his lyrics, so many of them were basically: “I am a horrible worthless person, I am nothing without Jesus,” which is a pretty toxic message, regardless of how catchy a songwriter the dude was. A lot of that got obfuscated by how catchy a lot of those early-mid 90s CCM bands like DC Talk or PFR were during that explosion in the genre, but ultimately way too much of the messaging in ALL of those bands was just… awful when seen from outside of that environment now.
“Way too much Rush” is the only serving size. There’s no middle ground. It’s either “that Space Invaders song from Futurama?” or you can rattle off every track listing up through Roll The Bones.
Man, I was raised Evangelical (now an atheist) and my whole childhood all we were *allowed* to listen to was shit like DC Talk. And even that was a little questionable because it was too much like Rock and Roll.
I haven’t heard those tunes in over 20 years and it’s so bizarre to hear them now. What a journey.
Yeah, no one does self hate like Christian musicians. I found the Rock Band games helped me find what I like and didn’t like. But… I feel like that era came and went already. Sounds like Joyce would be into secular 80’s and 90’s music. So, give her some Pat Benatar, Sonic Youth, and Green Day, lead into Linkin Park and My Chemical Romance. Oooh, I would love to see Joyce in an emo phase!
Hopefully Joyce finds some new music she likes soon. I’m not even gonna try to recommend some because I never listened to much Christian rock or similar, so I don’t know what someone who only listened to that growing up might like. Also because my taste in music is extremely broad and I have trouble narrowing it down to a few favorites.
Joyce needs Ghost. *nodnodnod* Papa would sort her out. (Not quite sure how to ease her into it, though… ‘Cuz that’d be a bit of a sonic shift as well as a topical one. Maybe one of their covers.)
Too heavy for ‘ease her in’, I think. Though Popestar as a whole…yeah, I think I’d start there, just reordered so Missionary Man and Square Hammer come last. (SH is my favourite Ghost song, but I wouldn’t start Joyce there.)
I heard a lovely fan song about the cartoon pony character Fluttershy, and later learned it got play on Christian radio stations because people thought it was about Jesus.
Guess they missed the lyric; “almost as if you were actually real”
Huh, I never thought about how Kindness would be interpreted in the absence of context. I suppose Jesus is a lot like Fluttershy, except not as cute and more likely to start wars.
I strongly am offended on behalf of nonexistent people but also metal fans specifically who suggest that secular music can’t be as gritty, disturbed, or full of needless grimdark.
as someone who has a lot of trouble hearing lyrics, I actually really like this (until I look up the lyrics at which point I’m mildly horrified) (I have this problem a lot)
I say introduce her to some Australiana, courtesy of John Williamson. Old Man Emu, Bill The Cat, The Vasectomy Song, Diggers Of The Anzac, Rip Rip Woodchip… He’s got decades of great country.
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
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Joyce needs to discover Sisters of Mercy.
Rage against the Machine.
JOIN US.
They might be giants. Instant ear worms. And the lyrics are ultimately sad and depressing.
He ended up sad! He ended up sad! He ended up really really really sad!
Hey now, hey now, now, now
Sing this corrosion to me
She seems to be of an age to pick up early Jennifer Knapp. Melissa Etheridge is a good choice. Third Day has bangers on most albums – Black Crowes are a good equivalent. Newsboys can be equivalent to TMBG for some albums. Scarecrow and Tinmen equivalent would be a boy band. Audio Adrenaline leads to Collective Soul. Jars of Clay is pretty secular but Live is a good choice. DC Talk’s closest equivalent is probably Run DMC.
Still, some Christian music really is excellent, though. Newsboys Going Public album – Elle G (about suicide), Lights Out (about apocalyptic beliefs), Truth and Consequences (about sexism and premarital sex). Some of their later albums get odd, hence the TMBG comparison – Take Me To Your Leader the album especially.
“Take Me To Your Leader” got me into The Newsboys! Because the cover was whacky and stood out to me in the catalog.
Agree with your comparisons. Reminds me of a flowchart in my youth group room that went the opposite way – “like this secular band! Try this Christian band!”
Type O Negative in general and “Christian Woman” in particular.
Joyce singing “Fudge you, I won’t do what you tell me” has been a wish for so long that thae got to the point she’d sing the proper lyrics now.
it is, strictly speaking, a banger
*gives it a listen*
A bop, sure, but no banger.
The tune is upbeat, but that’s as far as it goes.
oh gods
will this be joyce’s emo or goth era?
I am thinking Danny will introduce Joyce to the Monkey Master videos set to Linkin Park.
Because Danny is way too young for Dragonball Z ones now.
Idk Kai reruns were probably still playing on Nick toons when he was s kid
yee, can confirm, was one of those kids who watched DBZ Kai religiously ^^
obligatory Long Live Akira Toriyama o7
I can only hope.
Bauhaus, Siouxie and the Banshees, Depeche Mode, The Cure, The Cult, and top it all of with the ironically named Christian Death
Huh. Maybe Joyce should look into Death Metal.
How much do we have to pay Willis to do Goth Joyce?
If Joyce has been internalizing these lyrics I think we’ve been witnessing her goth era this whole time.
Bah. Doom Guy music all the way.
I mean its still pro Christian but whatever.
Dio – Holy Diver then. Perfect album for Joyce.
ID basically ripped off Stand Up and Shout for the E1M1 music in the original Doom, setting the tone for the series to this day.
showing joyce alters of madness and watching it shift her brain chemistry
No no no. Acid Bath and Queens of the Stone Age. Those lyrics are macabre.
Everybody always goes straight to that. Maybe start her off with a better genre, like hair metal.
Even MY upbringing wasn’t quite as self-harm inducing.
Just get spotify and listen to any recent top 40 playlist. This isn’t hard.
Yeah, Joyce has no reason to find change difficult or to be unaware of how to go looking for non-religious music. Nothing in her upbringing, neurodivergence, or traumatic recent history would at all have an impact on changing something she clearly fixated on.
It’s not that hard!
My comment wasn’t meant to trivialize Joyce’s struggle, just suggest the solution would be simple. This is a problem with many simple solutions. A lot of Joyce’s challenges have had common and mundane solutions to what seemed big at the time but were solved very conveniently.
I know tone is hard to convey into text. I’ll try harder next time to articulate my words to not be read in the worst possible light.
*notices Johnny Rotten and Alice Cooper looking at one another and nodding*
This…is a memory unlocked.
A few years ago, one of the local bus drivers would have his Christian pandora radio on and this song came up a few times…not exactly my cup of tea, but Steely Dan was a better poison.
Why was Steely Dan on the Christian pandora station?
Nothin’ but blues and Elvis
And somebody else’s favorite song
Well Joe, you should know that it starts with one.
One thing? I don’t know why.
It doesn’t even matter how hard you try
To get these lyrics started and totally failed
LINKIN PARK RULESSSSS!!!!
True, though I don’t know if Joe is familiar with their older songs, which are the only ones I can confirm rule.
I assume the newer ones also rule, but who knows (besides Willis) if Joe is familiar with their earlier work.
Obligatory “Dan knew about Linkin Park before it was cool” strip:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/longtimecoming/
Technically, that’s Ethan recognizing the lyrics, not Danny.
I can confirm that pretty much everything they did up until Chester’s death is fire.
Minutes to Midnight was the last really good album with Chester imo (my definition of good is “I liked 50%+ of the songs.”), but I really like the new album with their new singer. Nothing really wrong with the other albums after MTM, they’re just really not my cup of tea, not even the songs that blew up off of them.
Eh, they dropped off after Meteora.
Can’t beat the first two albums. (MTM and ATS has its moments, though.) Let’s pretend From Zero doesn’t exist.
Oh wow, I really like some of the songs on From Zero. Definitely not as good as Hybrid Theory and Meteora, but so few things are.
That’ll be easy, cuz this is the first time I’ve heard of that album at all.
Completely secular AMEN!
But that doesn’t deny that Joe’s placement of them in the metric isn’t spot on.
Am I the only only one reminded of that one song from the Lion King?
Oh yeah, Numb.
…I mean I knew Joyce’s favorite music was gonna be fucked up, but wow.
I’m sure it’s fine if you don’t pay any attention to the lyrics, or don’t understand the English language.
Ahh yes, the Larry Norman cover. All his songs were like this.
Ummm maybe the Larry Norman songs I’ve heard haven’t been representative? But the web says it’s a Charlie Peacock song and I’m not especially motivated to go search out more…
Larry Norman is very cool. I respect these kind of christians
On a scale of 1 to 10, how into Relient K was Joyce?
Actually, do the Christian kids still listen to Relient K? Skillet? Newsboys?
I mean surely still the Newsboys.
I mean all of those are a lot more recent than DC Talk so *shrug* At this point in the sliding timescale she probably would have found them by listening to her parents’ old music (kind of like my experience with like Petra, Amy Grant etc.)
It’s kind of weird, afaik there haven’t really been any successors to the non-ccm christian music from when I was a kid, in like the late 2000s/early 2010s there was a big die-off and hardly anything other than praise and worship was left. I think maybe it got crushed between the stigma against listening to anything other than like hillsong 24/7 from some quarters and the stigma against christian music from others. I don’t think anything ever really replaced that but maybe it’s just because I’m not in that kind of crowd anymore (thank god). At the very least, there certainly hasn’t been anyone I can think of like anywhere near as popular as relient k, switchfoot, newsboys, anberlin etc. back in the day, and all of those were probably a step down from like the previous generations of popular christian artists.
Now I’m thinking about Semler’s song TobyMac (about trying to make a mixtape for her girlfriend when she only knows christian artists)
Wider cultural die-off of Christian fundamentalist influence, surely. The satanic panic cratered, creationist bullshit was a niche losing ground to friggin’ Pokemon, and it only got easier for anyone to listen to anything for zero dollars.
Maybe, although christian fundie culture still seems pretty influential in like politics and stuff. Looking back though there does seem to be a trend of christian artists having less and less mainstream appeal and smaller and smaller audiences even within the christian demographic.
Until literally 2 months ago, I was only familiar with Relient K from the song “Be My Escape”, which received mainstream radio play and was not immediately obviously religious, and I always quite liked.
2 months ago it happened to come up in conversation with a friend who was raised evangelical, at which point I found out they’re in fact a Christian band. I asked said friend to point me to what he would consider their signature early work, which is how I wound up listening to “My Girlfriend”, and holy shit. I then had to explain that “Be My Escape” is distinctly not like that.
I still like “Be My Escape”, but I would definitely give that up if it meant I could erase their other songs from existence.
Relient k got progressively less preachy over their career, ‘Be my escape’ was from their 4th album by which they had hardly anything explicity christian (that was probably just about the most explicitly christian it got on that album). There were still traces of explicit christianity here and there on the odd song throughout their career but for the most part it remained a very minor theme only referenced sideways from about the third album on.
What I am saying is please don’t erase their other songs from existence they were my favourite band for all of my teens and my gateway into actual music and I am very nostalgic about them.
I thought that was a Chrysler.
They were named after one of the band member’s Plymouth Reliant K. The misspelling is a very 2000s band way of trying to avoid copyright trouble.
Oh man, Relient K was great.
They still are, though much less prolific! And this may just be me, but I can’t think of Relient K without thinking of Five Iron Frenzy.
FIF came out the gate kicking ass, and they kick ass to this day. The opening track of their first album goes for the throat in its criticism of Manifest Destiny and Christian brutality toward Native American populations. And while their pronounced goofy side surfaces in songs about the joys of Canada, heavy-metal mullets, and nerd pride, they also punch up hard against conservative book bans, music-industry hypocrisy, gun violence, police brutality, the abuses of capitalism, and more. Their latest album, “Until This Shakes Apart,” is essentially a savage thirteen-track takedown of Evangelical Trumpism.
Nearly three decades of sharp-witted, high-integrity brass rock. Can’t recommend FIF enough.
I really love that last album ^^
They were good, they were good, they were really really really good. Even if they’ve been dead or dying for like 2 decades at this point
God, Joe and Joyce’s dynamic can be so damn fun. I love that he’s so willing to razz her about some of this stuff, but it’s still clearly from a place of love.
I vote for Joyce getting into Black Sabbath.
My favorite is Bette Midler – From A Distance.
God is watching from a distance.
Kinda like how my mom would watch me and my sis when we swam in the pool as little little kids.
RIP Sis.
Holy shit???
Jesus Christ, what a fuckin’ way to end that.
…I am so glad I didn’t grow up in a household that fetishized Christianity like that. I’m a Christian, I go to church, I’m happy with my faith and enjoy sharing it with people… THAT is weird though and I’m so glad I was never exposed to that nonsense as a child.
I grew up evangelical and generally a lot of the stuff I had was Christian Shit, including the video games, but music was not one of those things. No, my Christian Music Phase was entirely accidental: I got into midwest emo and post-hardcore circa 2005.
Yeah, I like my church music to be hymns and my upbeat music to be worldly, I guess.
+1
It seems to be an apotheosis of Paul’s self-disgust. What Randall Garrett called a “typical satanic exaggeration of a virtue.”
Fourth panel = nice awkward Joyce Face
Oh hey it’s my childhood music. The cassette this was on was played on near repeat.
Also permissible was kool 105 the oldies station.
Otherwise in car trips it was forced memorization and recitation of bible verses. unless there was sports on the radio in which case mom listened to the sports at very very high volume.
The cassette (and later ‘pick a CD’) option was how I got to control the audio for the longest in a go and not have dramatic variance in things like the volume level as is standard when commercials exist.
damn i know nothing about fundies but it seems like catholicism and christianity had the a horrid co parenting arangment that left their kids traumatized
My wife enjoys some of Richard Rohr’s work and was telling me the other day about he considers the radical traditionalist catholics and fundamentalist evangelicals to be the same thing so I guess you’re pretty on the money there!
Do you think that Catholics aren’t Christians? Because that right there is rather an extreme opinion that pretty much only the hardcore fundies hold.
Not exactly. I had a girlfriend that was super Catholic,
And she used “Christians” with a sneer to mean Protestants.
I had to tell her she was one.
Joe is wearing Dina’s t-shirt
No, he’s not.
if I buy a shirt of the rack it doesn’t mean everyone else that buys the same shirt is wearing “my” shirt lol
Unless, of course, you call dibs.
It doesn’t? I have some apologies to make.
Does she have any Jewel on there, though?
Her parents probably wouldn’t let her listen to Jewel because the name contains “Jew” and Carol is… I’m trying to think of a non-ableist word for what Carol is.
Asshole.
Well jeez, sorry.
You funny person! Do “Who’s On First” next!
I am. I’m on first. I’m also on second, third, home, and the secret fifth base underneath the field.
I am the base and the ball, the pitch and the catch, the stadium and the stands. – Taffy 23:13
Twenty One Pilots, anyone?
Ah, yes – DC Talk. When I worked at Barnes & Noble, I was shelving one of their books. Called Jesus Freaks, it was a modern day “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs,” telling uplifting tales of people who died horrific deaths for Jesus. Wheee.
Out of curiosity, I read part of it. One of the stories I read in it featured the harrowing moment-by-moment account of a Renaissance English woman dragged from her home, hauled through the streets by her neighbors, beaten, pelted with garbage and rocks, tortured, tried, and finally burnt alive.
The only part of her ordeal (other than the quite likely sxxual violation) they left out was the part where this poor martyr was KILLED BY OTHER CHRISTIANS FOR BEING THE WRONG FLAVOR OF CHRISTIAN.
That detail is kind of important, tho…
Well, people aren’t going to martyr THEMSELVES!
“Heretic Pride” has a weird backstory.
That sound you hear from somewhere is the Devil ROTFL.
One of the Crusades was a dominant Christian group declaring “holy” war on a minority Christian group.
I once read something by someone I usually agree with saying how ironic it was that the American Religious Right were descended from people fleeing religious persecution. And it’s, like, yes, kind of, but the history of Early Modern Britain is basically successive Christian groups taking the throne and oppessing some or all of the others. The pilgrims just didn’t want to wait for their next turn!
For much of history, there was no one Christians hated more than people who believed slightly different things about Jesus than them.
This seems to be something to do with True Believers in any movement. Reminds me of Orwell’s observation that, in the Spanish CIvil War, the various kinds of leftists hated each other more than they hated the Nationalists. (Maybe it was just the Communists vs. all other leftists, it’s too late in the day to check.)
C’mon Joe, hook Joyce up with some decent Dad Rock. Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC. Might need to explain that Judas Priest aren’t actually a Christian rock band though. And Joyce might flip out if you showed her the album cover of Holy Diver.
Not a Christian rock band, no, but Rob Halford is very open about his Christian faith. that an openly gay metalhead can still be deeply Christian too might be something Joyce could find comforting.
You know, I remember that song, and it really doesn’t feel that intensely self-deprecating… Like…. Musically. Haha what a thought.
FUCK this unlocked a core memory. I can’t believe I still know all the words and that I never thought about what they said after breaking up with evangelicalism.. that uplifting chorus sure gets a horrific flavor when you connect it to the rest.
Hey, whoah, is there a second Laura?
*queues up “Waiting for the End” on Joyce’s Spotify playlist*
Wait till Joyce discovers Joy Division.
I think you are onto something, get her hooked on baby metal.
this is supposed to be a reply to Tim
Give her some Japanese or Korean music. When you can’t understand the lyrics you’re less hung up on them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ihwFkVAhU
Totally upbeat chorus!
“OK, so upbeat, self-flagellating, secular, have you listened to Olivia Rodrigo?”
Suddenly I’m catching strays I did nothing to earn lmao.
Wait, how long has Joe had that “Dig It” shirt we first saw Dina wearing?
Don’t remember. Since before the time skip.
Here’s Joe with it from years ago:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/exploits/
Also, here’s Amber and Dina talking about the shirt: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/digit/
That’d be twelve years then
I have no relationship at all with Christian music but I gave this one a listen and you know what, I get it Joyce. It’s a banger.
(Listens to the actual song) you know I think we could bridge her off onto Gorillaz if you snuck up on her with DARE.
I wonder how Joyce would react to a gigantic severed head singing in a Liverpool accent.
(sorry) Manchester accent. Liverpool and Manchester do NOT get on well with each other, despite their similarities. Like angry siblings in many ways.
Ah yes, thank you. I knew it was one of those.
It’s rated G she’ll be fiiiine
Probably better than she’d get along with Severed Heads. Or maybe not, since Tom Ellard seems to be an agnostic or atheist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrUfIIcK33A
Is this like when I was a teen and my dad commented that most of Manic Street Preachers’ The Holy Bible is upbeat so long as you don’t pay attention to the lyrics?
Also I failed Gravatar Roulette because I removed a dot in my Gmail prefix bit and it then kept on not posting… I had Dina… But comments actually getting through moderation is also a good thing…
Not sure if I missed a “verify” email?
But I was really pleased I got Dina!
(Does anybody actually do this systematically? Or is random capitalisations the way to go?)
Also I love how supportive Joe is.
And am disturbed that this is apparently a real song that people recognise
And other than the fact I slept most of yesterday haven’t gone to sleep yet “tonight” and it’s gone 7 AM here…
I’m not going to get Dina back, am I?
And have no idea what combination I used to get any of the other people I’ve had to date
Is Daisy upset or horny? I thought upset but she’s blushing?
She can be both!
Third Eye Blind is 50-50 for “sounds depressing, is vaguely affirming” and “sounds pleasant, is deeply depressing.” The most positive track is “Motorcycle Drive-By” and it ends with a surprise.
Jump, Little Children is slightly more positive but downright obscure.
Sounds about right for Manic Street Preachers, to be honest. Especially if you know about what happened to their vocalist.
It’s been a while since I listened to some Beautiful South. Incredibly upbeat sounding songs about messy breakups and screaming rows.
Although I think my favourite “upbeat if you ignore the lyrics” song is “Happy Hour” by the Housemartins, which even has the word “happy” in its title. This is a lie, and the song is about why it’s a lie.
I nominate Weird Al’s Christmas at Ground Zero but he’s got a lot of songs like that.
Joe should get Joyce to listen to the Guilty Gear Strive soundtrack.
Cue the Joyce fighting game tournament arc.
I want Joyce to listen to Big Blast Sonic for 18 hours uninterrupted.
My suggestion for Power Metal still stands
A shame she wouldn’t be down for “Another Holy War.”
Maybe not, but Blind Guardian is a great gateway into metal, which I believe she can get behind, as it has some lore elements that can be studied in great detail.
Joyce listening to Lovebites, hmm….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCMZK59dfkg
The funniest answer, for a similar level of edginess, would be Frankenstein Girls Will Seem Strangely Sexy.
… honestly though, her on-the-spectrum ass might get super into 90s Prodigy.
Actually, fuck Joyce. I’m curious what’s on Joe’s playlist. What the fuck is this guy into, aside from vaginas? I know he’s played a couple of Mario-adjacent games, but I don’t recall any particular entertainment or hobby he’s expressed enjoyment for. He works out, fucks on occasion, hacked a game to make Mario spank his own ass, and that’s about it.
Yeah, I agree, let’s get more depth on Joe. I want to know his vibes.
Unironically collects Herb Albert on vinyl – in a secret crawlspace, behind a box labeled “goat incest.”
But the Shania Twain is right there on his phone.
Why’s he got a box of Undertale porn?
Give her the phone Joe! Give her the phone!
One of the recommended videos after I finished “In the light” was Leonard Cohen’s “You want it darker.” Speaking of songs with less than upbeat themes.
It’s unclear who the “you” in this song is, but it might be the God of Abraham. A dying old man at the time he wrote it, the Jewish Cohen would have a mature, perhaps cynical relationship to his god that Joyce could probably appreciate. Though our militant atheist might not be ready to appreciate ambiguity or nuance.
Leonard Cohen in his later albums has a fascinating relationship with God and religion in general. He’s one of my favorite artists because of that. Steer Your Way is probably my favorite of those sorts of songs of his.
As a not so militant atheist, I love Leonard Cohen. Partly for that “mature, perhaps cynical relationship to his god”.
Not exactly the upbeat rock music/bop/bangers Joyce is looking for though.
“Dark night of the soul.”
Also a halfway decent Danger Mouse album.
mIlItAnT aThEiSt. where’s her gun?
The Second Amendment clearly states “A well-trained militant atheist, specifically and exclusively an atheist. If’st we so find yon Christian with a gun’st, thine jail fee shalt be in excess of $20”. Of course, when the Second Amendment was written, $20 was about half the Royal Treasury of England, equivalent to billions in today money.
I’ve said it before, introduce Joyce to heavy metal, she’ll be right at home. Maybe power metal if she wants something uplifting.
Throw on “Jesus Freak” if you wanna stick with DCtalk. Or older Jars of Clay if you wanna go a bit more “edgier.”
Honestly a lot of good to decent 2000’s CCM has a level of upbeatness without being full on “I LURV MAH JESUS” sounding.
I was just thinking of Jars of Clay this morning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNGLU_VsePg
Downpour on my soul
I’m splashing in the ocean, I’m losing control
Dark sky all around
Can’t feel my feet touching the ground
Listen Joyce, i have a good non-christian song for you. Look, here’s the outro line:
‘When i became the sun, i shone light into the man’s heart.’
See, it sounds Christian, but it’s not Christian. Give it a listen.
Next karaoke session, a less-than-sober Joyce puts her whole ass into “Cigarro.”
This song unfortunately rocks. Willis, you might be the instrument of my conversion, be careful.
That’s what gets to me: the dissonance between the melodies and the words. Very un-musical. We get three bars in and I’m thinking, “yup, I’m being manipulated again. Tune out.”
Sounds like a short sidestep over to Evanescence might be in the cards for her.
I think more and more that Joyce needs Sal’s advices about music. She probably knows both folk and rock very well.
Remember that Sal suggested Hanson and didn’t even know the name of the song. Her tastes might be limited and basic, after she was shipped off. Though maybe basic is what Joyce needs right now.
Danny suggesting “WAP” to Joyce would would be the worst thing he ever did to Sarah.
NGL – dctalk hit different when I realised I was trans… (context: I get the distinct impression that God was waiting for me on that hill of realisation, tapping his foot and looking at his watch, and said ‘took you long enough! Did I not drop enough hints or something?’ when I turned up.)
He probably does that a lot. He must be getting tired of it.
Feels like it should be illegal to have kids listen to that sort of song.
let’s face it, even if it were made illegal here, such law would be no more than Lei para Ingles Ver
Joyce needs some of in her life.
HTML you duplicitous bastard. Whatever, it worked. It was supposed to highlight “my favorite band” lol.
Joe, c’mon: Cultural exchange; and she left christianity.
Instead, why didn’t you show her some jewish rock/metal?
Because that would be incredibly rude when she’s asking him to listen to the songs she used to like, so he can get a feel for what she liked about them apart from the Jesus stuff?
Interesting. This comment section has become a deep well of bands I’ve never heard of.
I dunno if it’s my ADHD, but most of the time I hear the words to music as part of the music itself, mostly devoid of meaning. Same as hearing J-Pop with the occasional English lyric. Only having the lyrics in front of me makes the sounds into words with meaning for me. (I mean, other than Disney songs for example). For example, I was mortified when I looked at the lyrics for Blurred Lines.
So honestly, if I had heard this in my formative music memory years? Yep, I would have had it on repeat. This IS really cool, musically. I get it. It’s awesome.
She’s got to get into musicals. Maybe Steven Universe.
Affirmation by Savage Garden also comes to mind, too.
If you like the music but not the lyrics, try looking for parody versions. I’d personally never want to listen to Blurred Lines when I could listen to Word Crimes (by Weird Al), for example.
Now I wonder if Joyce would like I Love Rocky Road.
Speaking as someone who was very much in Joyce’s (and her sister’s) shoes here at one point…
Linkin Park actually was pretty useful.
Also Smashmouth.
And showtunes.
All of Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog’s songs
3 Doors Down
Steppenwolf
The Mamas and the Papas
Within Temptation
Ariana Grande
All helpful
I know as an autistic AMAB enby, my experience coming out of religion won’t be the same as Joyce’s will be, but if we’re at all similar in any way, Joe better get ready to have to hear WAY TOO MUCH Rush and Steely Dan as Joyce hyper-focuses on new playlists.
Also, kind of need to observe how screwed up the lyrics to so many of the songs I used to love are. Keith Green songs were my JAM back in the day, but looking back on his lyrics, so many of them were basically: “I am a horrible worthless person, I am nothing without Jesus,” which is a pretty toxic message, regardless of how catchy a songwriter the dude was. A lot of that got obfuscated by how catchy a lot of those early-mid 90s CCM bands like DC Talk or PFR were during that explosion in the genre, but ultimately way too much of the messaging in ALL of those bands was just… awful when seen from outside of that environment now.
“Way too much Rush” is the only serving size. There’s no middle ground. It’s either “that Space Invaders song from Futurama?” or you can rattle off every track listing up through Roll The Bones.
Man, I was raised Evangelical (now an atheist) and my whole childhood all we were *allowed* to listen to was shit like DC Talk. And even that was a little questionable because it was too much like Rock and Roll.
I haven’t heard those tunes in over 20 years and it’s so bizarre to hear them now. What a journey.
She needs to listen to every other Taylor Swift album.
Oh my goodness. TobyMac, your Calvinism is showing. You might wanna… no, yeah ok, you do you. :blush:
Those lyrics are metal as heck. \m/
That’s just the pre-chorus, wait for it
Just put on some Pearl Jam
Yeah, no one does self hate like Christian musicians. I found the Rock Band games helped me find what I like and didn’t like. But… I feel like that era came and went already. Sounds like Joyce would be into secular 80’s and 90’s music. So, give her some Pat Benatar, Sonic Youth, and Green Day, lead into Linkin Park and My Chemical Romance. Oooh, I would love to see Joyce in an emo phase!
Rockband games helped my now 50 year old ass a lot as well. Also I realised I can actually sing, depite what my primary school teacher said.
I may be dumb, but I’m not a dweeb…
Hopefully Joyce finds some new music she likes soon. I’m not even gonna try to recommend some because I never listened to much Christian rock or similar, so I don’t know what someone who only listened to that growing up might like. Also because my taste in music is extremely broad and I have trouble narrowing it down to a few favorites.
Is Joe about to discover that Dorothy is sending Joyce boob pics?
I don’t think Joe would be in anyway surprised by Dottie sending titty pics to Joyce.
He’d be surprised they were properly in frame and the picture wasn’t blurry though.
I would hope Joe wouldn’t open Joyce’s texts without her permission.
Type O Negative in general and the song “Christian Woman” in paricular.
Joyce needs Ghost. *nodnodnod* Papa would sort her out. (Not quite sure how to ease her into it, though… ‘Cuz that’d be a bit of a sonic shift as well as a topical one. Maybe one of their covers.)
Square Hammer?
Too heavy for ‘ease her in’, I think. Though Popestar as a whole…yeah, I think I’d start there, just reordered so Missionary Man and Square Hammer come last. (SH is my favourite Ghost song, but I wouldn’t start Joyce there.)
Misheard Lyrics:
Every attempt on my half-assed fail
to bring this sickness under control
Ok, DC Talk’s cover of “Lean On Me” is pretty good, though.
Well, if that ain’t the appropriate gravatar.
I heard a lovely fan song about the cartoon pony character Fluttershy, and later learned it got play on Christian radio stations because people thought it was about Jesus.
Guess they missed the lyric; “almost as if you were actually real”
A cursory search turned up nothing. What is this?
I found a cover of it https://youtu.be/8hWCWuEbBn0?si=1P3l1iDpwZpPkOC4
To be fair that sounds EXACTLY like Christian rock.
You mean “Christian rock sounds like THAT.” The sound is the candy coating to get you to swallow what lies within.
Huh, I never thought about how Kindness would be interpreted in the absence of context. I suppose Jesus is a lot like Fluttershy, except not as cute and more likely to start wars.
By the way, the original is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn3caYBZLyc
Fluttershy has started many a war.
Her adorable yellow hides a heart of pure evil.
Yeah, that’s upbeat if you don’t listen to the words, I wouldn’t call it a bop though
You can seek to be in the light if you want; I’ll be over here seeking to be a beautiful salad bowl.
I know! She can start her new listening with The Decemberists “Mariner’s Revenge Song”…it’s like Johah and the Whale…
We are two mariners
Our ships’ sole survivors
In this belly of a whale
..but maybe not the bop she was looking for.
those lyrics are horrifying I’m going back to my evil death metal
I strongly am offended on behalf of nonexistent people but also metal fans specifically who suggest that secular music can’t be as gritty, disturbed, or full of needless grimdark.
Shame on you.
Ah, yes. There’s a reason Skillet made it on my “vampire emo” playlist, even if that’s not what they intended.
not me dancing to Amy MacDonald’s Poison Prince
as someone who has a lot of trouble hearing lyrics, I actually really like this (until I look up the lyrics at which point I’m mildly horrified) (I have this problem a lot)
yeah throughout my life I never really expected any mainstream music to have easily discernable lyrics
not sure if that’s down to my being autistic or if that just the norm XD
This track was a core component of my “I’m depressed because I’m not praying hard enough” years
Canonically, Nightwing/Dick Grayson is also a fan of DC Talk. And Jars of Clay, if I recall correctly.
Well, at least, pre-New 52.
Listen to literally anything by Metric. For reference, they wrote the song “Black Sheep” that Brie Larson sings in Scott Pilgrim Vs The World.
Waves seemed pretty upbeat.
I’m recovering from a half-century of depression, and I agree with Joe on this one. Those lyrics would bring anyone down.
I say introduce her to some Australiana, courtesy of John Williamson. Old Man Emu, Bill The Cat, The Vasectomy Song, Diggers Of The Anzac, Rip Rip Woodchip… He’s got decades of great country.
I wonder what Joyce would make of “A Quick One While He’s Away” by The Who, given that it’s a completely secular song about sin and forgiveness…