Let’s be precise: Willis portrayed Dorothy as having that thought.
Granted, that doesn’t bode well for Dorothy being anything like normal about this relationship until she actually works through some shit with her therapist.
She was absolutely, completely correct about her feelings for Joyce being tangled up in her trauma from the kidnapping, which gives me doubts as to the shelf life of this relationship.
oh dang this just made me realize what my issue with the Dorothy/Joe/Joyce poly ending is. Dorothy’s inner psyche sees Joe as a threat that is on par with a literal kidnapper driving her away forever. Not exactly the easiest dynamic to navigate.
Unless we are talking about a completely different thing no comparison was made by anybody. Joe leaving with Joyce triggered a flashback because Dorothy has PTSD. As somebody with experience having flashbacks that doesn’t mean the thing that caused the flashback and the thing the flashback is about are being compared. Your traumatized brain is just connecting two (often very dissimilar) things and screaming at you “Oh gods, it’s happening again!”
we’re saying the same thing, i just paraphrased it. No Willis did not literally go “hello everyone, Joe sure is like that kidnapper huh”, but he did show that for Dorothy ‘Joyce leaving with Joe’ == ‘Joyce leaving in van’. Those things feel similar to her and within the confines of the narrative are just ‘Joyce is being taken away’. This is an intentional choice by Willis and not the actual ptsd response of a real person.
No, but it is supposed to be the representation of a PTSD response by the character and it’s a damn good and accurate one in my opinion as someone with PTSD. And continuing to frame it as a “comparison” between Joe and a kidnapper just gives Jay more ammo for what seems like a malicious and intentional misreading.
Right. But the comparison didn’t come from Willis. It came from Dorothy. Willis wasn’t comparing the two, they were showing how Dorothy’s issues are causing that comparison to happen For Her.
Authors write characters who are incorrect for whatever reason, and are not actually espousing those views or making similar comparisons.
Not only was that not Willis, I don’t even agree with those who say it was Dorothy[‘s conscious mind]. I think it was very narrowly and specifically Dorothy’s PTSD.
this also seems like a really odd take given that we’ve repeatedly been shown how Amber’s PTSD distorts things, so the idea that Dorothy’s is any more of a Pure Representation is…. very unlikely?
Is it a bit? Look all I’m saying is lately Sarah’s been acting out of character. Smiling, socializing, working out, liking Joe as a friend and equal?! And what’s it her business if Dorothy and Joyce are slutting it up, or that Jocelyne exists? When the shoe finally drops on Sarah then who will be laughing?! It won’t be a bit then!………But yeah it is a bit now.
(To extend the food metaphor, all the kissy-face stuff with J&D was like watching a dude select his charcoal and hardwoods and clean the grates which is all in theory necessary but doesn’t really activate my neurons to watch it happening, but THIS is the sizzle of that brisket hitting the smoker and the smell starts coming up)
Me too, it was nice to get a little peek at how important it was to Joyce and Dorothy, how strong their feelings are, and how unable they are to just keep apart for a few days. Now on with the show!!
They do have a friendship that while never devoid of judgment, seems to supersedes it and even be strengthened by their mutual ability to love each other despite and because of their differences. Joyce would likely be most comfortable talking to Sarah of all her close friends.
On the other had, Sarah is also basically a big sister or mother figure to Joyce. The disapproval must be crushing in away it would never be coming from Sal or Ruth. The nature of Sarah’s relationship to Joyce turns, “Joyce, as your friend, I don’t think you should be doing that” into “I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed.”
Which is also hilarious because not too long ago (in-universe) Sarah was trying to sabotage Joyce and Joe and one of the people she tried to get for it was Dorothy, specifically calling out her and Joyce having a weird thing going on. Alas, Dorothy wasn’t there to hear that bit.
Oh, poor Joyce. She COULD just say “Sarah, you are an important friend, but I’m figuring out some stuff I don’t want to talk about yet now” and not be having to make that goofy awkward face.
She won’t of course. She absolutely won’t. Because Joyce.
With all the discussion about Jorothy lately I’ve done a lot of thinking about why I don’t vibe with it. I don’t quite feel like I agree with the paladins or the sickos so I had to do some self analysis.
-Is it because of the cheating?
Honestly this element doesn’t bother me too much. Like I think cheating is bad but I’m not the kinda person who gets up in arms about it. It’s not like I of all people have a moral compass haha.
-Is it due to framing it around a “Bulmeria” protest?
I definitely don’t like that element and this entire arc would be better if they’d just left that part out.
-Is it because it enfangers one of my favorite couples, Joeyce
This may be the most likely. Joe and Joyce had single handedly become my favorite part of this comic in the past few years and so I feel like it’s getting dumpstered in favor of this couple. But I don’t think thats the whole story.
I’ve done some soul searching. Wondering if maybe it’s some subtle internalized homophobia or something that makes me hate this gay relationship. But then I started thinking about how much I like Joyce with other female characters and it finally hit me.
I. Don’t. Like. Dorothy.
And I don’t think I ever have.
Like even when she was dating Walky the first time I always felt like “really? Her?” But I just kinda let it slide. Looking back on it I was pretty dang happy when they broke up. And even happier when he got with Amber. I don’t even think I liked her with Danny for the very brief period of time *that* was happening.
Dorothy is like the exact kinda person I just don’t vibe with. She’s a fuddy duddy. A real fuss budget teachers pet type. The wettest blanket. I’m not crazy about how she treats Walky or Joyce and definitely not Danny. On top of that, she’s just not my type. I gravitate more to thicc girls (as you may have noticed) but I’m not the biggest fan of blondes. It could be because in the US a lotta people treat being blonde like some inherently attractive trait and it’s just…never appealed to me. And seeing it pushed kinda made me like blondes less. Which is kinda the other problem. Joyce and Dorothy are both blonde bespectacled white girls. They’re sooo visually similar it just hits me wrong. Almost feels like they’re related. They’re the most visually similar couple in the entire comic. Feels almost masturbatory. And with this new character breakdown she’s going through I just don’t really vibe with her.
Like when it comes to Joyce I like a lot of other potential sapphic ships for her.
-joyce and Liz
two former fundies going against their programming. Liz trying to lead Joyce to try new stuff only to need Joyce’s help to actually guide her through it when things get scary.
-Joyce and Jennifer
Joyce has already expressed explicit attraction to Billie and she’s actually done a lot to help Joyce out of her shell. I could see her going full bisexual sugar mama on Joyce.
-Joyce and Carla
Joyce and Carla actually have really good chemistry and Carla is actually quite civil with her. I don’t doubt carla’s sex repulsion would be fine with Joyce but maybe if there are moments she wants more? That’s good drama there.
-Joyce and Becky
It basically writes itself. The drama of Becky now having a fully committed love interest now having to wrestle with her childhood crush finally reciprocating her feelings after a lifetime of waiting. The sickos say they want drama. Now THAT is drama.
-Joyce and Sierra
They had one nice conversation. Therefore they should smooch.
I could go on. I think Joyce is actually a quite malleable character relationship wise. Would you believe there’s an alternate reality where she dates Walky? But when it comes from Dorothy I feel like it would be so much more fun watching her flounder with her feelings for Joyce while Joyce is content and happy with Joe for a while longer. I think THAT frustration is the most interested I’ve been with Dorothy as a character. To want someone who is taking, believing you’re not even the best for them but desiring them all the same. That hits me right here (points to where a human beings heart would be). But so far the cutesy stuff just hasn’t really interested me. I think in theory they’re cute but I just don’t vibe with Dorothy and that spoils it for me. Which makes all those previous issues seem so much worse.
So yeah.
Also sorry if you are similar to Dorothy. I dont mean to imply you shouldn’t date joyces. I just wouldn’t want to read a book about it.
For me, I feel like before the time skip Dorothy was written to be rather… boring, in a way. No offense meant, of course, it’s just that in a cast of very comical and interesting characters, you’re right that Dorothy’s role before the time skip was usually saying “don’t do that” to characters. Part of that is because whereas a lot of the characters have complicated upbringings and parental relationships that inform a lot of their personality and quirks, Dorothy’s parents were squeaky clean and perfect. Dorothy was perfect in turn.
The arc where she broke up with Walky was probably the first time that perfect facade broke, as Dorothy was trying to have her cake and eat it too with Walky (“We’re casual but also I love you”) and couldn’t balance that with her schoolwork. I do think Dorothy’s character has gotten a lot more interesting since the timeskip and I think it’s because the ‘burnt out gifted kid who is definitely undiagnosed neurodivergent with PTSD that’s flaring up’ vibe resonates with me. But I can completely understand if that means she still just doesn’t vibe with you. She still tries to bend herself backwards in ways that make even me roll my eyes a little, she’s definitely still got a way to go clearly!
Honestly, given her parents insistence that she doesn’t *have* to become president, and the only thing that matters is what makes her happy… I can’t help but wonder where Dorothy’s intense need for perfectionism comes from. If her parents weren’t the one to push her like this, who or what did?
I have a weird theory that she was the “gifted kid who had no social skills” type, where while she wasn’t ostracized per say, she wasn’t part of any group of friends.
I have this feeling she and Danny were neighbors, and they were friends due to that. just sort of fell into each other, and once puberty hit, they latched on because hormones.
She saw how easy it was for Joe and Danny to make friends, but how none of those friends really noticed her as anything but a hanger on. Leading to the start of the political dream “they’ll *have* to listen to me if I’m president! I’ll pick better options then belching the alphabet like that stupid Joe, who shouldn’t be popular at all!” and that just became her whole persona.
So she read a lot of books about politics, a lot of books about lots of things, but she’s only *ever* read books about stuff, she’s never actually DONE anything.
And then she starts college as a know nothing know it all but everyone *assumes* she’s a know it all. Because she’s more put together then the rest of the cast.
I could absolutely see that, because even though Joyce is the one who was homeschooled, not only do we know Becky was her besty growing up but Joyce had a bunch of other kids she’d hang out with and even a crush like Tristan. Meanwhile I think all we know from Dorothy’s backstory is Danny, and Joe as Danny’s plus one.
Her failure to relate to the others when she wanted to be an RA also made it clear that she’s really out of her depth when it comes to befriending others.
Maybe her parents are so calm and acceptiing, that she’s grown up with a wierd desire to either prove herself worthy of them, or just to something, anything, big enough to get a reaction from them?
Or something else entirely. I wonder if we will ever get any more background on it!
Praise is a trap. Especially as youngsters, we can develop a desperate need to not disappoint our adults, and it leads to all kinds of complications, not to mention a lifelong drive to seek approval even at our own expense or to keep from getting that praise in the first place by turning our lives into complex systems of avoidance by acting against our own self interests.
I can’t tell you what backstory Willis has in mind for her, but I went to school with a looot of Dorothy IRLs. For the ones I knew, it was usually a combo of presdisposition toward anxiety plus college prep grind culture. Some outwardly ‘nice’ seeming parents mean well, but are helicopter parents (anxiety runs in families.) Gifted kid burnout also a big one. You’ve always been praised as the perfect student, adults expect you to go to Yale and win a Nobel prize, and you’re terrified of failure because you’ve never experienced it before (hi, Walky.) Kids and their families were sold a lie that they could do anything, if they just did well enough in school. That’s the American Dream.
like she has an avatar that we see here all the time, and was present for like, one storyline and just disappeared,
Liz has some real potential as someone other than Joyce being the Christian Atheist to learn some real important lessons from interacting with Jews and Muslims in the strip alike, among other things
Liz is such a fun character and I get WHY she’s not recurring in the same way that Jocelyne hadn’t reappeared until JUST now, but she’s left such a strong impression on the characters in just her brief tenure I’d love to see her rejoin the cast for like…a week. (which for us would be years).
I respect this take so much of my frustration with paladins is them not admiting that disliking dorothy or even dorothy and joyce together is more of a factor than “morality” if its just “I don’t like this ships” you know what I respect that not all this “the sinners must be punished” thats been going on in the comics the last few days.
Agreed, I think a lot of people need to understand that they can just say “I don’t like this” and the conversation can be done, they don’t have to assemble the right dialogue tree to convince the jury why their stance is the objectively correct and morally right one and anyone who doesn’t agree is morally wrong.
There’s a significant difference between not liking a ship and seeing the ship as trying to rationalizing cheating. Like was said yesterday, we’re worried this will be presented as “Cheating was bad, BUT I found my soul mate because of it, so it all worked out for the best!”
I’d like to believe Willis is more skilled than that, but anxiety isn’t rational.
I understand that, I’d say my problem is like that one person who was arguing that if you break up with someone and then get into a relationship afterwards (or break up to start a new relationship) that that is a morally wrong thing to do and people shouldn’t date someone who would do that.
I will never understand watching literature through binoculars at a distance from the fourth wall, cynically brushing aside any involvement with the story. It’s fun to commit to literature, to go inside that world for a while.
If the literature in question isn’t up to the task I won’t bother with it in the first place.
(I’ve been reading DOA for many years)
Of course portraying bad actions does not constitute endorsement of those actions. Down that road lies censorship-minded ‘million mom’ busibodies
The more I think about it, the more I think that some of the people on the “I don’t like seeing art where bad actions are presented as okay, actually” bus might well be reacting to the world we live in now.
I don’t think, for example, that it’s unreasonable to think that there’s a point where fictional characters condoning awful actions IS a problem in literature — things like The Turner Diaries, Atlas Shrugged, etc, that is propagandizing an obviously harmful worldview.
I also don’t think it’s necessarily unreasonable, in the current era where we see things like “the youtube algorithm leading people from ‘zany gamer asshole’ videos to ‘actual nazi propaganda’ in as few as 3-4 steps”, for people to believe that there’s not really such a thing as “any random small channel/comic/media” anymore in terms of impact.
Unreasonable starts to creep in where we start conflating those two things with the idea that “college kids cheating and it eventually works out” is the same as, say, “actual right-wing propaganda”.
But I am not sure that it’s NECESSARILY a bright line so much as a big smear of on-the-surface reasonable propositions that can sometimes combine into something that looks like over-moralizing.
This is a great point and I think is a driving factor for some folks. I know my relationship to media has changed for similar reasons.
I’m not personally as bothered by the cheating arc. I’ve been in both Joyce’s and Joe’s positions, and neither feels great. Exploring the drama from multiple character perspectives is actually something I’m looking forward to, because art at its best helps us understand ourselves better. But I get why it might be hard for people not to see this arc and, aside from any personal trauma they might have, may also wonder if they’re being sold something darker as being acceptable.
Cheating is just not morally equivalant to nazis or abusive relationsips or murder or being a alcoholic or cannibalism or whatever people say to guilt people about the cheating. I personally don’t care about cheating in fiction I didn’t care in harley quinn season 3 and I don’t now. I think its personally reasonable to have a line where fictional actions go too far everone has that line. Its wrong in my opinion to force that line on others unless its like literal nazi being potrayed as good but currently such comparisons are disrespectful if anything.
That’s exactly what Big Z said: “Unreasonable starts to creep in where we start conflating those two things with the idea that “college kids cheating and it eventually works out” is the same as, say, “actual right-wing propaganda”.”
But that being a level where it becomes unreasonable doesn’t mean the idea doesn’t creep into social attitudes and influence the discourse.
I’m also not so sure that problems don’t start well before actual right wing propaganda. We critique things like representation in media or cis/heteronormative assumptions all the time.
Just responding here, I think this is a great take and worth thinking about. Plus it should be mentioned that even when a work explicitly says something like “don’t do bad guys things” there are people who somehow miss that completely. Like the goobers who claim Star Trek isn’t political, or that bastard (not saying his name because I don’t want to give him traffic) who named his company after Saruman’s seeing stone. Way to out yourself as the fucking villain, bruh.
Yeah I dislike the idea that Willis is “glorifying” cheating because some people are going to think willis is glorifying cheating regardless of how this plays out. Depiction is not endorsment but some people will see it that way just some people love homelander and thinks hes the hero or that walter white was the good guy. Because media literacy is so bad unless the villian goes “Hey kids this is bad don’t do it at home its seen as “glorifying” or endorsing bad actions.
Writing it off like that though is the opposite media literacy fallacy. That some people will misread it regardless doesn’t mean that any negative reading is a misreading. Obviously we don’t yet know how it will all play out, but the Kiss scene in particular was very clearly framed in a very positive, romantic fashion. It’s not bad media literacy to acknowledge that.
I have even less patience for arguments that we need to “think of the children” and make sure all media is appropriate for kids.
That argument is doing real damage to real people, not hypothetical damage, like the idea that someone might read The Turner Diaries and become radicalized*.
“Think of the children, aren’t you worried they might see that” is the argument that was used to first attack books for adults, actually, but also got age-appropriate literal children’s books banned just for “being about a kid with two mommies” or “being about a kid who’s Black”, because the censors in charge have decided that “””DEI””” is inappropriate for kids.
It’s the argument that’s being used to push online IDs in the UK right now, which was allegedly meant to keep kids from using porn sites**, but is also being used to block their access to Wikipedia while they try to pressure Wikipedia to alter its articles that are (accurately) critical of, like, the Tories.
Like, this is not a slippery slope argument, it is pattern recognition.
* The Turner Diaries cannot radicalize anyone. It’s extremely unpersuasive. It’s gross, but not dangerous. People claiming it “turned” them racist are just lying, they were very much already racist before they read it. Ditto Atlas Shrugged.
The “YouTube / TikTok algorithm funneled me from gaming content to Nazis” problem is real, but it’s also not happening in a vacuum. Kids who fall down that rabbit hole need more support at home, they need to be taught critical thinking (and explained to that letting “””AI””” do their homework is a terrible, self-defeating thing to do), etc. The problem isn’t so much the YouTube channels existing, although Google and Facebook deliberately stepping back and letting “””alt-right””” content flourish in clear violation of their own TOS and hate speech law should also be addressed — but it’s not that the ideas have some sort of evil magic power. This isn’t the One Ring, tempting people. It’s more complicated and deeper.
The gamers to antifeminist to general anti-social justice YouTube to “””alt right””” to mask-off Nazis pipeline is not causing structural societal problems, it’s reflecting them. Destroy the mirror if you want, but it would be a better use of our time to educate our kids, and pay more attention to both local and federal politics (like who’s running for school boards) in the future.
** honestly I don’t think we should leave unquestioned the idea that seeing porn is automatically traumatizing for kids, especially when by “kids” we also mean teenagers. America is very puritanical about sex, and England doesn’t seem any better. It’s still extremely telling that they keep characterizing this as “protecting kids from porn”, and really what they’re doing is preventing kids from being able to access, just as one example, suicide prevention resources.
I have unironically seen people say that gay characters existing in shows aimed at ADULTS is pedophilia or will lead to pedophilia. These arguments about should “media portray bad things” is as old as time and the puritanical side has always pushed for censorship. It happened with the Hayes Code it Happened with the Comic Code Authority after Seduction of the Innocent was published. I am a adult even if this strip was “glorifying cheating” I am intelligent enough to know cheating is wrong and I would never do it in real life.
Also an internet gesture of support Yoto. 😞 Taking it one day at a time here but this is definitely the worst timeline.
ALSO: I feel the need to add, I KNOW my feelings about “think of the kids” being used as a cudgel against ^^^^ all of that risk bleeding through these conversations, and I swear I am doing my best not to lash out at folks who just don’t like seeing what they feel is a rosy, positive portrayal of cheating, because I know people do have legit reasons for feeling that way.
I apologize for any point where I’ve failed and it’s bled through anyway. I think the proposals are misguided, but I don’t think anyone in this comment section is in any way intentionally mimicking this dangerous rhetoric.
“I don’t want to read stories where that happens” is completely fine! “I want to talk about the ways in which I think this story is portraying cheating positively” is also completely fine.
“I don’t think stories where that happens should exist” is where I feel the need to push back. And I’m really trying to be gentle in that pushback. I really don’t want anyone to feel like I’m accusing them specifically of setting up book bans, and I am definitely not assuming malicious intent from anyone.
But yeah. The current climate is affecting all of us, for sure. It’s making some of us want more restrictions on media — and it’s making others of us ever more wary about what happens when media is restricted.
Another factor in the “gamer to Nazi” pipeline is that teenagers have a real genuine emotional need for dumb edgy counterculture.
It’s just part of adolescence! Pushing boundaries! Offending old people! Dead baby jokes and the like are literally an important developmental stage.
My generation needed its South Park. And some people never grow out of that, sure, but everyone needs something like it at some point.
And Gen Z and Gen Alpha really aren’t being allowed their version of it — because of the loss of third spaces. No one has a MySpace or a Livejournal to share their stupid seventeen-year-old bullshit with just a few friends anonymously, it’s all happening in public, on TikTok or Instagram or Twitter, where adults react with predictable horror and moralizing.
Except, of course, for the alt-right folks, who are all too happy to use “gosh you can’t joke about anything anymore, can you? Come hang out with me, I’ll let you use all the words that make other adults cringe!” as recruitment.
So that’s another thing we need to fix. Better home environments, better critical thinking skills, and spaces where teenagers can be stupid edgy assholes without receiving immediate adult judgment for it. That’s gonna mean the restoration of anonymous spaces, not more ID Verification, and also undoing all of the hostile architecture our real-world public spaces are currently rife with.
More benches, more public bathrooms, no more anti-loitering laws that punish teenagers and unhoused people while doing literally nothing for crime.
Mmm, I kinda feel like we’re on flip sides of a very similar point — stuff from The Turner Diaries to Atlas Shrugged to PragerU all DO suck and are generally unpersuasive, and can only be effective propaganda in a media and social environment where people are kinda pre-programmed to buy into their ideas. My own personal position is much, much closer to “destroy the pipeline” rather than “destroy the mirror”, if that makes sense — people (including teens) who are well read, well-informed, and have been mostly exposed to pro-social ideas as opposed to anti-social ones are not going to have much of a problem with any radically harmful works, or really any works at all aside from the normal and highly individualized developmental appropriateness.
I am, however, also rather sympathetic to the Popper argument of tolerance not being a suicide pact, and as such I also UNDERSTAND the argument that we should be able to morally judge fiction with harmful ideas, and that is not the same as when the Nazi side morally judges fiction with non-harmful ideas that they don’t like.
I’m also coming at it from a very tired place of knowing that the nazi jerks will use “think of the CHIIIIILDREN” arguments to hurt people and ban perfectly harmless representation of ordinary people regardless of what arguments the rest of us do or don’t use to prevent nazi and other harmful ideas from creeping into the mainstream, and as arguments about hypocrisy and fairness do not work on them I am sometimes inclined to just burn their books back rather than take any kind of high road.
Also, there’s a difference between “don’t put restrictions on what can be portrayed in fiction” and “tolerate Nazis”, or “give Nazis a platform to share their ideas”.
If you let Nazis into your bar, it becomes a Nazi bar.
But Nazis aren’t an idea being portrayed in fiction, they are people who do violence to others. It’s not difficult to say “no Nazis on YouTube”, and again them being on the platform is in violation of already existing ToS that isn’t being enforced. We don’t need new, additional rules that are nominally to prevent Nazis from being allowed on YouTube, but in practice just get LGBTQ+ content hidden, blocked, and banned.
I’m just anti-censorship in general. Even if I think some things are bad and shouldn’t be seen, hiding them only exacerbates the harm they can do. You have to be able to talk about these things so we can publicly discuss WHY these things are harmful or bad. Or even why they ARE NOT harmful or bad. Censorship is the weapon of fascism. Ignorance is a virus.
And, of course, censorship is not a scalpel, it is a sledgehammer. As we’ve seen IRL over and over and over and over (and over), attempts to ban “racist content” (for example) don’t just hit The Turner Diaries, they hit Huckleberry Finn. Attempts to ban “incest” and “rape”? Well, congratulations, you just blocked a lot of really important material — sex education, crisis hotlines, forums for survivors.
And again I cannot stress that I’m not making a slippery slope argument or catastrophizing — I’m talking about the real effects attempts to ban these topics have really had! “Strikethrough”, as it’s called, was when LiveJournal deleted and purged hundreds if not thousands of journals and communities, and communities specifically for survivors of rape and incest were among those that not only got purged but never came back.
Trying to burn Nazi books has just historically never worked out, not even once.
Like Yoto said, this is a tool of fascism. It’s not a tool we’ve ever successfully used against fascist, and we should probably stop trying.
@Li And then we have the issue where someone starts banging on about what “should be allowed” to portray in a webcomic or in somebodies fanfic and people will say “Well it’s just fandom. That’s not going to effect public discourse.”
As if the fact that you saw them complaining about a webcomic or a fanfic keeps them off your kids school board, out of your town hall meeting, or off the FCC. If someone advocates for something to be censored one place they aren’t going to stop there when given the opportunity to help censor it somewhere else.
@Proxiehunter: There ARE people who only try to control what folks put in fanfic, because fanfic authors are bullyable in a way that major film studios aren’t… but.
Maybe it’s just me but I think the stakes are low enough here that you can tell a love story with cheating involved without condoning it overall. I got some heat for apparently justifying cheating for saying this but I’ll say it again.
Joyce and Joe aren’t married. Walky and Dorothy aren’t married. The relationships are weeks old or weeks newly rekindled. Walky/Lucy might have even lasted longer.
So yeah this cheating has happened, but I don’t think it will be the end of the world. I think part of growing up is realizing sometimes relationships are messy and you have room to make mistakes on your path to growing up and yes even finding love in life.
No cheating has happened. Neither relationship had a monogamy agreement. No agreement, no cheating. And assuming monogamy is the default is just silly. Dorothy and Walky didn’t even have a hint of an agreement, Joe might have assumed, but there wasn’t one there either.
As far as I’m concerned, the real sickos are the people who assume monogamy is the default relationship status.
So weird that the author says he’s writing a cheating arc, all the characters involved are treating as at least bad, if not explicitly cheating, but Vic here knows better and everyone else is a sicko.
Sure, but that’s obviously only because Willis is a sicko with a warped view of human nature, probably from his fundamentalist upbringing. Otherwise, he (and all his characters) would realize that cheating is only possible with a formal monogamy agreement.
Also, it’s really easy to say “cheating is bad” and really annoying to have to write “Yes, but really I just think Dorothy and Joyce are bad together and here is why” whenever I feel like expressing disappointment with a development.
I will say, to the top comment, I never considered Joyce and Billie but I absolutely would devour that ship. That would be terrible in so many ways, but also just so much more fun to read lol.
It might not be what you mean, but this reaction in what is largely a relationship drama story seems really odd to me. It feels like “Don’t care about this because none of these relationships actually matter.” In which case, like half the point of the comic goes away.
They’re supposed to be important. They’re important to the characters.
I’m sure there are people who are saying something like that and meaning it exactly that way (for example, some people don’t care about Joe at all), but I do think mooooostly when folks say “chill out, it’s just a comic,” they’re not talking about caring about what happens to the characters in a comic strip we all enjoy, they’re talking about the few folks who have explicitly said they’re applying a 1:1 real-life judgment of their fellow commenters.
Or the few folks who have indicated they’re experiencing a LOT of psychological distress over what’s happening, which is different from just caring about the characters.
It would be neat like, overall, if internet comments all came with a little “readers added context” box, explaining exactly what a given person is reacting to, because without that, we are all kind of guessing.
Doopyboop, yeah! Thing is, these are all just personal opinions. and, as such, are neither right nor wrong, they are just what a person thinks. So, absolutely there is no dialogue tree to convince a jury!
Just express personal opinion, as a personal opinion, once only, if you (anyone) wants to.
Shorter comments section!
But how can you claim to be a paladin if punishing the sinners isn’t a core part of your motivations!?
Jokes aside, I want to state for the record that morality is pretty much the biggest reason for my dissatisfaction with the direction things have taken recently. Like, do I like the relationship between Joe and Joyce more than Dorothy and Joyce? Absolutely, I think Joe and Joyce were great together. But I genuinely think I’d be perfectly fine with Dorothy and Joyce if the relationship didn’t start with both the cheating and all the other ways everything about that protest was just completely messed up. Makes the whole thing feel like it’s getting off to a really toxic start and I don’t enjoy reading that.
One of Dorothy’s flaws is she thinks she knows other people better than they know themselves. If someone says they don’t like cheating storylines, don’t pretend you know they secretly just don’t like Dorothy.
I can’t speak for anyone but whenever I saw the moral outrage posts I felt “that’s not quite right” for me. Like it’s part of it, sure but like. I can get over reprehensible behavior. I love both Mike AND Amber and boy of them say and DO some of the most reprehensible shit in the comic and it doesn’t bother me at all. Malaya flatly sucks and I LOVE her and Marcie.
Like it seems they sometimes are assholes about stuff, but more in a “you are not acting from a place of virtue” type way.
For example buying Walky a pair of pajama jeans. On one hand, non-virtuous intent because he was trying to sabotage Walky/Dorothy. On the other hand it was something Walky wanted and enjoyed. Mike’s action wasn’t tricking them into having a conflict, rather he was enabling Walky to be who Walky wanted to be.
It seem’s in a way his style of assholery was more about getting people to face uncomfortable truths.
It’s funny cuz I was talking with some friends that Dorothy/Joyce is one of those Arcs that would be WAY more fun with Mike alive.
“Wow. So you and Brown finally hooking up. Poor Walky. First his girlfriend dumps him and now his new one is cheating on him. Guy can’t catch a break. But I guess the Lucy thing isn’t your fault. Oh wait. Weren’t you the one who told him to date her? Dang, you must really have it out for him.”
Same. Just think of how proud he would be of Joyce that she could hurt Joe so much better than he could by punching. And how glad Joyce would be to hear him say that.
The most reprehensible thing Mike did? In my opinion that was manipulating a teenager into catfishing their admittedly horrible math teacher so she would get fired, then dumping the guy, refusing to even be his friend.
But some people might prefer him blackmailing Blaine into spending more time with his daughter not realizing what a truly awful person Blaine was and that spending more time with him was bad actually. That likely being the catalyst that resulted in the infamous gas station incident that has gifted Amber with permanent trauma and a disassociated identity. But Amazi-Girl kinda cool so maybe it evened that out.
Like even Mike realized being an asshole to people to help them was more likely hurting them and also making him have something in common with Blaine.
For most people here yes I do cheating trauma and projecting there own issues is another but this moral grandstanding is just annoying and unlikely to change anyones mind.
I dunno, it’s been my experience as a paladin (who doesn’t like the cheating) that people ALSO get mad at me when I express my opinion that “Actually, Joyrothy is a boring-ass couple because Dorothy has all the interest and appeal of wet toast.” and “That strip where Joe and Joyce were leaving on their date and Dorothy is having visions of Joyce getting kidnapped essentially proves to me that Dorothy is nowhere near approaching this relationship in a healthy manner.”
I’m not sure anyone though Dorothy was approaching the relationship in a healthy manner. I don’t recall hearing it claimed. Doesn’t prevent the the relationship from being the right one.
I don’t “admit it”, because it isn’t true. I like Dorothy, and I like Joyce/Dorothy. I would be going awww with the rest of y’all if it weren’t for the cheating.
Fair enough maybe understand that people going aww is not a moral failing on their part. People can either seperate the relationship from the cheating itself or maybe the romance is more important than the cheating or maybe they like myself don’t really care. This is not a reflection of their morality in real life. I am tired of being accused of being a “cheating apologist” when I too have cheating trauma and think its a horrible thing to do in real life.
Wow, I love all of this. Except maybe the idea that people who look similar shouldn’t date, although I agree with you that they do look very similar. In some of Willis’ pencil sketches that were supposedly of Joyce, it looked like Dorothy to me.
Probably my favorite part is that watching Dorothy struggle with unrequited feelings would have been way more interesting. Honestly before Willis pulled the trigger here it was much more interesting to me. I would have liked to see that arc for Dorothy.
Yeah that one’s less of an objective complaint and more of a personal “I don’t personally like this aesthetically.” And honestly it’s probably being exacerbated for my own very subjective preference against blondes.
To be fair while maybe not the full reason you dislike Dorothy she has been acting fairly unlikable this season. Her world view was shattered and she’s basically been spiraling, tantruming, acting selfishly and performative, and she was ultimately rewarded for it. (Even though I don’t really like framing Joyce as a reward). So not liking the relationship does feel valid. They’re both behaving badly and I think the mess of their new relationship will be what they have to suffer through if this actually wants to work as a romance.
I’m glad you said this because it’s been driving me a bit crazy. Dorothy’s crashout legit nearly got people killed. Joyce got grabbed for sticking around because Dorothy was being an idiot, and we just saw the final consequences of Amazigirl’s interference in that debacle. I’m not actually saying Dorothy is responsible for that, of course, but still there was a level of stupid and crazy at play there that should really have some negative consequences.
This is a really interesting comment because I disagree with so much of it — I like Dorothy, I liked Amber and Danny together, Dorothy and Walky are probably one of my favorite couples in the comic, and while I understood why Walky and Amber liked each other, they really annoyed me as a couple — but yet there’s two things you said here that really hit the nail on the head in terms of describing my thoughts about this storyline.
The first is about how much you loved Joyce and Joe together. I’m also sad we’re seemingly jumping ship on that relationship — or at least inalterably complicating or altering it — before we really get to see it played out to its full potential. I’ve loved Joyce and Joe together since It’s Walky! I was rooting for them.
But the larger point for me is about how interesting you found Dorothy floundering with her feelings for Joyce while Joyce is content and happy with Joe. I agree, that was a great dynamic and was doing wonders for Dorothy’s character. But it also drives home for me that most of this story was told from Dorothy’s POV. And I REALLY feel like we’re missing Joyce’s perspective in return. I suppose intellectually there was a lot of set-up for Joyce before the actual kiss — with the Paramore and her asking Dorothy for sex-prep and such — but I really felt like I watched Dorothy GRAPPLE with her bisexuality whereas Joyce just kind of embraced it in a way that didn’t feel as satisfying.
And the way that both Dorothy and Joyce just immediately assumed that because they like each other and kissed once that of COURSE they need to be a couple and everything will work out perfectly grinds my gears. Now don’t get me wrong. I think we’re going to see this latter idea come crashing down around them, and I’m sure we’ll see Joyce have to reckon what it means for her to be queer soon enough. But the narrative weight of this story has not felt equal.
I want to preface this by saying that I’m a full fledged homosexual: but there’s this trope I hate that pops up a lot in young adult fiction where a gay or queer character has a crush on a seemingly straight character, and at the end of the story it turns out that the straight character is actually bi and they get together and everything’s great (the Love, Simon sequel is the first story that jumps to mind for me that I remember doing this and feeling frustrated by it). I feel like it shouldn’t bother me. I like gay relationships! I think they’re great! I’d rather see them in stories than straight ones! But every time the trope happens it feels convenient and like wish-fulfillment and it just absolutely grinds my gears, especially because the story is almost always told though one character’s perspective because the other’s sexuality has to remain a surprise or ambitious. The Joyce and Dorothy story reminds me a LOT of this particular kind of trope.
I like the characters, I like the idea of the relationship, I genuinely even like a LOT of the details of this storyline, especially when it came to Dorothy slowly unraveling her sexuality, but the execution has just felt off to me.
-“But it also drives home for me that most of this story was told from Dorothy’s POV. And I REALLY feel like we’re missing Joyce’s perspective in return.”
Wow I hadn’t even really put it into words but you’re exactly RIGHT. Dorothy’s perspective is our main perspective and it kinda felt like Joyce suddenly met in the middle. Which might be why it felt so sudden for a lot of people. Joyce, who freaks about every minor change in her life, fully reciprocated Dorothy’s feelings with no internal conflicts or struggle. And it’s not that she may not have experienced that. But why didn’t we SEE that? I would have LOVED an arc where both are going back and forth proccessing their feelings, neither wanting to make the first move cuz they’re too worried they’re looking too much into the other’s feelings. A real lesbian sheep moment. God, I want that so bad now.
Also that 5th paragraph reminds me so much of what little I’ve seen of “13 Reasons Why” haha.
> I would have LOVED an arc where both are going back and forth proccessing their feelings, neither wanting to make the first move cuz they’re too worried they’re looking too much into the other’s feelings
I mean there’s an argument that that arc exists and is the entire comic.
There’s an argument for that and it’s true in a sense, but we saw Dorothy become aware of it and struggle a bit with accepting it. Up until the scene in bed before her date with Joe, there was no sign that Joyce was consciously processing it at all. And even then it wasn’t clear.
I think it was dependent on how much you were willing to read between the lines. And of course what you read between the line (or at least what I read between the lines) isn’t always there.
I think maybe you’ve forgotten all of Joyce’s development until now. She fully reciprocated Dorothy’s feeling because she was already in love with her. Possibly from day 1.
This cute conversation dismissed as just women being more emotionally open is just being in love with Dorothy already. She basically just needed someone to say sex with her would probably be cool right? And she received a double whammy on the same day by the two best queer disasters that have already majorly skewed how Joyce views relationships with women.
The strip after that one is probably better but you can see the gears turning in her head. Then of course there’s the GOAT who further corrupts Joyce with basically every conversation they have.
So you sat she reciprocated too quickly with no struggle but I say one of Joyce’s major character arcs for the entire story has been coming to terms with her love for Dorothy and women in general and how to express that.
Plus she’s still with Joe. Don’t think they’re not struggling this is just a honeymoon phase since they’re both high on knowing that being together is even an option they both want.
There are other examples like their bar date, Joyce being irrationally jealous of Walky, Becky skewing what normal skinship is, Joyce having obvious crushes on basically any girl that doesn’t immediately fall into her “sister” folder. (Poor Becky😭) I also have some theories on how Joyce really views romance but I’ll save those for later. I just disagree that Joyce should’ve struggled with this. She’s basically been waiting for Dorothy to kiss her since freshman family weekend. She just didn’t know it.
Yeah. None of this is actually the concept that I want, sorry if that was confusing.
Writing-wise this is like…more foreshadowing than the concept I’m speaking of. It’s less Joyce “wrestling” with the idea and more planting seeds for the audience that Joyce may like Dorothy more than she lets on. I’m saying I want an arc where both fully recognize their feelings for each other but now don’t know if the other reciprocates and therefore hijinks ensue.
There have been plenty of signs that Joyce was bi, from the very beginning of the comic. We saw plenty of Joyce struggling with the basic concept of being sexually attracted at all. Including very recently in the Joe arc. Despite of course it always been very clear that she was sexually attracted to guys.
We’ve seen no hint of her either struggling with or accepting the idea she was actually bi. Not even awareness that it was a thing she might be.
I guess I’m confused a bit by what you’re talking about. To me most of the comic has been Joyce struggling and fighting against her bisexuality. Very early in the story we were getting strips like this
To me it feels like we’ve done that already. Many times. Joyce isn’t really struggling with her sexuality anymore because her religion was the primary source of her anxiety to begin with.
Also to address Yoto. I just think we’re too far along to ever get that kind of mutual apprehension from Joyce and Dorothy. You have to go back and takeaway the kiss (which I know a lot of people don’t even like how that went down) but it’s a cat’s outta the bag situation now. And I don’t think Joyce is the one to be shy about it. That’s Dorothy’s thing. I really think Joyce likes the chase if we really want to get into it. If you look at how she acted around Jacob or even Joe, she goes after what she wants.
What you’re talking about is not what I’m talking about.
I would’ve liked Joyce to
Realize, explicitly (not implicitly) that she likes Dorothy. I want her to internally think about how that’ll change their friendship dynamic, What this means for her attraction in general. And whether or not Dorothy is gay as well. Joyce presumably has TERRIBLE gaydar and clocking whether or not Dorothy is as into her as she is into Dorothy would’ve been fun. As it stands, Dorothy is the only person we see personally have that exact reaction while Joyce is only reactive to Dorothy’s personal understandings. Every post you’ve posted is like a buildup to the big kiss. That’s not what I want. I want fumbling. I want her to be dipping a toe and pulling back when the water is cold. I want “haha just kidding… unless”
Also yeah, we’ve definitely gone too far. That’s why I don’t like it. We went too far too fast and it basically killed a lotta the fun I might’ve gotten with the will they/won’t they. And so far the They Are is on only barely holding my attention and most of that is just “how’s Joyce gonna explain her way outta this pickle”. Because as I said, I don’t really care for dorothy and so I gain less enjoyment from the “cuteness” than I do the drama.
I suppose intellectually there was a lot of set-up for Joyce before the actual kiss — with the Paramore and her asking Dorothy for sex-prep and such — but I really felt like I watched Dorothy GRAPPLE with her bisexuality whereas Joyce just kind of embraced it in a way that didn’t feel as satisfying.
And the way that both Dorothy and Joyce just immediately assumed that because they like each other and kissed once that of COURSE they need to be a couple and everything will work out perfectly grinds my gears.
Yes!!!
Joyce just suddenly being OK with all this feels even weirder because the Paramore thing was promptly revealed as bait for us: Dorothy meant it that way, but Joyce didn’t process the lyrics until several strips later, and then she said Joe is her “only exception”. Dorothy, meanwhile, tried to convince herself that none of this was real because trauma apparently pretends to change your sexual and romantic orientation but also doesn’t really…?!?
And speaking of orientations… Joyce is in love with Dorothy, but we still haven’t seen any evidence she finds her sexy, have we? Doing laundry together means you don’t have to engage with each other’s body shape at all, not even with what their genitals are like. Meanwhile, Joyce has all the hots for Joe, and she said yonks ago “if I didn’t have to deal with anything below the neck” about… I think it was Dorothy. That seems to contradict “i could crawl up into them and be safe and warm forever”, but that sounds more romantic than sexual at me even though it was said while staring at Billie’s boobs. So that’s a loose end. It’s probably all resolved somewhere in the buffer…
Y’know, if we’re really lucky, this setup with Sarah will result in some actual explanations from Joyce about her perspective and decisionmaking as she tries to justify things.
@Pivitor: The “jumping ship” on JoJo bothers me as well. It really felt like we were just getting into their relationship and there was a lot more that could be done with it.
Especially since Willis revealed that he did speed up the DoJo plot. There was originally supposed to be more JoJo first.
THIS. Like who knows. Maybe we will have a long period of JoJo with secret cheating. Maybe Poly will happen. Counting Chickens before they hatch and so on. But yeah if we get DoJo by sacrificing Jojo it’ll be one of the worst trade deals I’ve ever been privy to.
Even if it was an inevitable part of the long term plan, we lose a lot of JoJo stuff that was being set up. I could be wrong about this, but I also suspect that if this had been the original plan, JoJo itself would have played out differently, probably to work more in before it blew up.
Poly is possible. Even long secret cheating is possible, though I think more than a few days is really unlikely. Either way, it’s still a huge derail from what was being built up for JoJo.
I agree as someone in the she ra fandom I hate the idea of the “crazy lesbian” the one that had a crush on a girl and as such is doomed to die. I saw that show subverted that trope that the character was not doomed or punished was a good thing. Then I saw so many people be like “this character should of died or be punished” Like do you not understand the optics of that? Similarly straight best friends that seem like they are in love is a trope in media we see constantly and a lot of shows queer bait as a result. So many people are like I wish dorothy agonized in a one sided crush or I wish they would have just stay friends with homoerotic subtext. There are hundreds and thousands of shows and movies that do just that go watch naruto or something.
I respect folks who were really attached to Joe/Joyce and are sad at the possibility of it blowing up forever (I’m still pulling for poly), but there were a surprising number of people who really seemed to think it was not only likely but would be better storytelling if Dorothy’s feelings were unrequited.
Please consider “a surprising number of people” italicized and bolded and underlined, because that’s what I meant: not, no one should feel that way, but that I was surprised by the popularity of it, especially given Willis’s readerbase.
Something worth considering is that unrequited love is just a very popular way to write romantic tension. Unrequited love is a major feature of PEANUTS of all things. I think of it less as a “infant want these gay girls to date” and more “I relate way more to living someone who doesn’t love me back.” Or even just that struggle of not KNOWING if the other person likes me back.
Mm, I’m sure that’s why at least some folks felt (or still feel) that way!
For me personally, I couldn’t imagine we were about to do Becky Pt 2. It would’ve been SO similar to that first storyline, and some folks specifically wanted it to play out in the exact same way, down to Dorothy kissing Joyce without warning and getting rejected for it.
And I just didn’t see why that would be interesting for Willis to write, never mind any other factors.
I also know I saw some of it coming specifically from folks who dislike Dorothy and just kind of want bad things to happen to her, but I don’t think that’s got anything to do with it being two girls — at least not directly, heh; statistically Dorothy would be more popular with readers if she weren’t a girl.
(Which isn’t me saying anyone has to feel guilty for not liking her! Just, broadly speaking, “default” characters get a lot more grace from all of us, whatever the default might be in your specific society. Everyone else gets scrutinized more, by everyone, for a whole host of complicated factors.)
Now, some of them may be hoping unrequited love will make them like Dorothy more, but I think the vast majority of folks just didn’t want Joe and Joyce to break up, or cheating to happen, or both.
I disagree about Dorothy, of course, I like her and think she’s very interesting, but there’s nothing wrong with not liking or finding her relatable. 🙂
I think you put it rather well. Funnily enough, I kinda liked Dorothy’s character before the timeskip; for whatever reason I always vibe with goody-two shoes characters who are not sanctimonious about it (we can compare and contrast with Roz).
There was even something interesting going on with her development when it came to her bad grades and her failure to get into Yale.
But the stupid kidnapping arc and her characterization after the time skip made her a lot less endearing and relatable (at least to me). If her characterization was going to focus on her alleged trauma and disillusionment, then during the kidnapping arc she should have tried acting like a leader and FAILED. As it is, she did as well as anyone in her position could have. If her character arc was headed towards disenchantment with the whole idea of being president and an identity crisis, she should have tried to do something leader-like and then completely botched it.
But the way the events unfolded are because Blaine is a lunatic and Ross is an idiot, not because of anything she did.
To wrap up this long tangent: I agree with you, Dorothy is possibly the biggest factor that makes this ship hard to take.
I mean trauma doesn’t really care if you did “everything you could” or whatever, it dtill going to fuck you up. And i don’t get how that example about doing something “leader like” relates to anything, her disillusionment with being president isn’t that she wouldn’t be a good leader, it’s that presidents, historically speaking, do some pretty awful shit even if they tried to do positive change.
I share some of your feelings about Dorothy, but have some differences as well. Like, I really liked her and Walky the first go around because their strips together were generally when I liked Dorothy most. In general, I didn’t like her– but also different, she’d totally be someone I would have hung with around this age. I just didn’t enjoy her character.
Until the pining! She really got me with the pining. The yearning. The ache. Actually, there’s been some stuff outside of that post-timeskip for me, but that had been a lot of getting me interested in her character.
(Also, Joyce and Dorothy don’t hit that similar visually to me, but… I have had that feeling with thinking people (mostly people who have the same shade of blond hair) look related enough that seeing them be romantic feels weird. This is not a rational judgment, I know! But I get you there.)
I don’t like that Dorothy seems to see Joyce as this fragile thing that has to be protected at all costs. Her relationship with Joyce always seemed more parental than partnership. She has a lot of “here, let me do this for you” moments with Joyce. She doubled down on this after the time skip, because Joyce became the center of her trauma after the big kidnapping. (Remember her flashing back to Blaine’s van driving away when Joyce was walking off for her date with Joe?) And don’t even get me started on the bit with the dryers; that was exploitative at best, predatory at worst.
Meanwhile, Joyce’s characterization has been bent into a silly straw to make Jorothy happen. Suddenly Joyce is okay with cheating, when the idea flustered her when he found out about their dryer ride? Dorothy tells her to her face that she’s entitled to her affections now so she must immediately break up with Joe, and she goes along with that?
It’s not going to be pretty if Joyce gets annoyed by her overbearing tendencies again. (Assuming we ever see any conflict between them.)
Dorothy’s still got PTSD from the kidnapping, and she’s racked with guilt because Joyce became the primary victim after her escape plan fell apart. Some piece of her feels like it’s her fault Joyce got taken away in that van, so keeping her cozy and warm under her wing forever is the solution to keeping her safe soothing that guilt.
Just to note: I don’t think Joyce actually is okay with cheating; she’s just burying it with New Relationship Energy. Whenever she remembers it’s a thing that’s happening, she feels guilty about it until she gets distracted by being a horny idiot.
Evidence of both of my arguments here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/clocked-2/
Joyce and Billie would be so fun haha, with Billie’s stereotypical popular it girl personality and Joyce being a dork.
Re:people who look similar, in a relationship. Lots of same-sex couples look like each other; some even do it on purpose (getting the same haircut, etc).
Also, personally I don’t like Joyce while Dorothy is (currently?) one of my favorites which I think is an interesting juxtaposition to your preferences! Dorothy shot up my rankings ever since she turned angsty.
yeah i’m pretty much with you. I just think they’re a kinda milquetoast boring couple, but they aren’t *bad*. No shade to the shippers I’m just a humble Hater trying to make my living.
Anyway the REAL crackship is Joyce/Ruth. I will not elaborate.
I’ll even go so far as to say that they COULD be interesting, as soon as the rose colored glasses come off and they actually have to seriously grapple with Dorothy’s current set of issues on top of what the friend group is going to think about all this.
Like, We still make references to Bugs Bunny. Dude is almost a hundred years old.
The gif about him sawing off florida is from 1949!! I’ve seen it in use every week for years.
As you said, classics are classic because they stand the test of time.
NGPZ’s reference, I’m fairly certain, is a reference to an early episode of Spongebob Squarepants. It’s a line from Mr. Krabs in reference to… either anchovies or maybe some scheme of his arch-rival Plankton. It’s been like 20 years since I’ve seen the episode so I don’t know. That quote just imprinted itself on my brain in isolation.
Literally the first episode. It *is* anchovies, plankton has nothing to do with it. Spongebob comes back from shopping for a hydrodynamic spatula with port and starboard attachments and turbo drive and prepares burgers for all the anchovies, saving Squidward and Mr. Krabs and proving he’s the best fry cook in bikini bottom .
My freshman year of college, 2007, I was mad at Nickelodeon for delaying/messing with the final season of Avatar: The Last Airbender. I looked at the schedule for a random week of Nick programming and they had 24 hours of Spongebob and a half hour of Avatar.
Idk, maybe she would have learned to lie, because of survival instinct. That’s true of my experience. Although, she would not be the person she is today, if she had done that throughout out her childhood/adolescence.
True, had she realized younger, the entire trajectory of her life’s story would have played out differently. She’d still be “Joyce” but not the “Joyce” we know.
I suppose that depends on which religion. Toe Dad’s sure. Not all religions have a Hell or equivalent thereof though and not all that do conceive of it as being underground.
A quick google search tells me that Naraka is neither a place you are sent after being judged by a divine being nor permanent, which are both pretty strong distinguishing features when looking for something equivalent to Christian hell.
Much of this comic is about recovering-fundie issues. Like Joyce has tried to dispose of God, and I’m wondering whether she, and indeed many readers, have thought about the implication of no Gods on the concept of morality. Humans generally have one, whether they think it comes from a God or not. But it might simply be a social construct, as some posters have hinted. A kind of agreement to disapprove of things that screw up the smooth running of society. How aware is Joyce of screwing up the smooth running of society? She knows it happens, but has she yet clocked that: Just because she can now throw away all the religious rules because there is no God, it doesn’t mean there are no consequences? She is lying because she is concerned that something is “wrong”, has she worked out that lying isn’t “wrong”, it just has consequences?
Something i find interesting is how one of the reasons some dislike this development is because they liked Joe and Joyce relationship. Because i also really enjoyed their relationship a whole lot, i was waiting for it to happen for a while, and yet i cannot relate to that felling. I enjoyed Joeyce and now i also enjoying jorothy just as much, snd the two fellings don’t contradict or supersede each other, they just exist at the same time. (The cheating aspect doesn’t factor in because i don’t care). I wonder if it’s me being weird about it.
Eh, you like what you like, that’s not really “weird”.
As far as I can tell, there are basically three bits to this to have opinions about — “Joeyce”, “Jorothy”, and “how the various characters transitioned between those two states”. If your opinions are, respectively, “like, like, and don’t mind”, honestly I’d guess that’s one of the more common sets of viewpoints.
I’m pretty resigned to my own setup of “like”, “boring”, and “for fuck’s sake, you two” being relatively uncommon.
People asking me a lot of questions already answered by my “My non-romantic partner and I are both incredibly straight” t-shirt that’s presently crumpled up next to the bed my mutually straight partner and I share.
It’s odd, whenever a comic featuring Joyce or Dorothy or Jorothy what-have-you comes up now, I have a really hard time finding anything to say about it? Like this whole development has taken characters I really liked and made them feel very ‘other’ to me. Let me explain before it starts sounding worse than it actually is.
The best way I can describe it is they no longer feel like they are ‘for’ me. They aren’t technically different aside from being bi, but I’ve always stuck to my guns that this story line felt very out of character for Joyce particularly. I can buy Dorothy being a disaster, she has been for YEARS now. Joyce though, she is SEASONED at learning new things about herself now and has been handling those developments with more grace and emotional intelligence each time. So why would she suddenly choose the most selfdestructive way of going about it, right now, with what seems like only a short few months of buildup? (which is NOT long by this comic’s standards.)
Why would Joyce suddenly reset her own character development for someone who would not want that for her to begin with, romantically or not?
It really seems the reason it feels that way to me at least is because there is a major shift in how the characters are written, and they aren’t really aimed at the same audience anymore. I think that’s fine? I’m not a fan of it, but I don’t have any right to be telling any author what they can or can’t do with their characters. That DOES mean however I am going to have to accept that these characters aren’t for me anymore and I am either going to have to move on from the comic, or find other things to like about it.
I am choosing to just enjoy the other things about the comic I like with a bit more enthusiasm. I might not like Jorothy, but they aren’t for me anymore, and that is fine. Maybe a bit sad after so many years reading, but it is going to be okay.
I dunno about joyce being seasoned at learning new things about herself, we’re like four (five?) months into college
she’s gone through some major changes for sure but that doesn’t make her more resilient to overrecating to new stuff necessarily
kind of a pattern with her in some ways tbh
I would argue that Joyce has dealt with this more grace and emotional intelligence that many expected. That’s why we didn’t get a major Joyce freakout about realizing that she’s bi and in love with Dorothy. It’s why she didn’t hesitate in acting on that love at the protest.
And if you really think that Joyrothy has had only months of buildup despite the many demonstrations that its roots go back to the very beginnings of the comic that people have posted, I don’t know what to tell you.
I’d actually argue they retroactively became less of a gag and more serious foreshadowing after the fact, but it doesn’t matter since it is now. I mean I’m not blind.
In hindsight, since the comic is drawn a year in advance, it at least has that much forethought put into it. Can’t imagine having something I worked on a year ago making people upset at me today. It’d be such a strange feeling to parse.
Maybe it’s been with more grace and emotional intelligence, but it’s hard to tell since we’ve gotten very little insight into what she’s actually thinking about it.
I feel kinda similarly I guess. I found some aspects of Joyce and Dorothy relatable in past story arcs, but this current story arc with the cheating has made me really dislike them and I find them hard to relate to now. I’m trying to enjoy other aspects of the comic with other characters for the time being, because right now I really can’t enjoy this story arc focused on Joyce and Dorothy until they at least talk with their boyfriends about things and we see how that goes.
This isn’t a comment on your take, or a dig at you, but I just think it’s very funny and ironic that you said “I have a really hard time finding anything to say about it” and then you said a BUNCH of stuff about it. Paragraphs of stuff.
I didn’t comment on it but loved the ear nibble, hope we get more stuff that gives us a sense of Joyce’s perspective
Much as this arc has been a great Dorothy arc I do wish we felt more of Joyce’s side
Where’s her head at when it comes to relationships and morals. Cause yea it’s obvious “she desires Dorothy” but I’d like to see her inferiority shown more
With Dorothy I know how she got here, the good and the bad of where he heads at makes sense. Joyce is too much of a mystery
I’m not struggling with her being bi cause everyone outside of Becky reads as potentially any sexuality to me, but her relationship with Joe was such a big deal and we’ve basically been given two strips where her feelings on the matter have been explored
So far all my analysis on her state of mind feels more like me making big guesses rather than going with what’s in front of me
And not to repeat myself from a week ago but Dorothy and Walky is not the relationship that has much dramatic tension for me, it’s just continuing to happen aimlessly
Joyce and Joe is the couple that’s had buildup, Joyce cheating on Joe matters cause of how it’s been presented, so it feels weird that we’re not being let in on her feelings
I want to feel conflicted with the cute moments, but while enjoyable aren’t in much of a conversation with a big part of Joyce’s storyline
I sort of agree with your second point about Joyce’s feelings, but also sorta not. She is all surface feelings, passionately exploring these new feeling for her best friend. But remember her first attempt at forming a break-up speech for Joe, “I like who I am when I’m with you. You make me feel like the most important person in the world.” Poor girl has some serious conflicts to reconcile
See, you see those lines as indicating that what she feels for Joe is deeper, but for me those lines are the opposite. They’re not about Joe at all. They’re entirely about her, and she basically said: “I like that you love me.”
Like, it’s subtle, but. It’s something I’ve learned to be very mindful of when I’m trying to compliment my friends, for example.
“You take such good care of me” is a fine compliment, but it feels better to the other person to say things like, “You’re so funny! You’re such an amazing artist! You’re so smart! I love your info dumps, I love talking to you about Star Trek! It’s so great when we get to hang out.”
The first is appreciating things they do for you; the second is appreciating their intrinsic qualities as people.
And because Joyce is a fictional character whose dialogue is all written, I doubt it’s an accident that the compliments she tried to give Joe there were strictly of the first type.
Then again Willis might just not view that way. We all have different ways to express pur affection for others and what might make it seen less deep to you might not for them.
I’ve got to say, the one thing Joyce “Warm and safe forever” Brown has never read to me as is straight. I assumed she was so deep in de Nile that she she needed to worry about crocodiles.
In my town, Wendy’s is known for having the second-lowest standard of cleanliness out of all the fast food places, after Burger King. Taco Bell is kinda sticky in the lobby, but the kitchen seems honestly like the cleanest of the bunch. Hardee’s and Sonic are both in a state of “cluttered but not gross”, while Dairy Queen and McDonald’s need shut down permanently.
Which is all to say, Wendy’s sucks because they don’t fucking clean anything.
Wendy’s also sucks because they used to offer pretty good random limited-time chicken sandwiches, and then they decided that it was going to be only Ghost Pepper Ranch forever, and if there are two things I don’t want with my fast food lunch, it’s “ranch dressing” and “too spicy”.
Meanwhile, I’m over here with my popcorn and my overactive imagination, absolutely loving this story arc for the drama and the imagined enjoyment of the sexy times.
You just KNOW they got down and dirty after Joyce dropped that whisper in her ear. I feel bad for Joe, but I also wanna see how this plays out.
so like
becky is gonna notice dorothy’s not in their room
walky’s also gonna notice maybe? since she was upset before he might be checking in
joe is enthusiastic enough to check in and walk joyce to class early also
potential explosion soon?
I find Joyces incredible devotion to the idea that Maybe. This Time. She will be better at lying. Unlike me, a normal autistic person who just devoted a lot of time in high school to drama classes and improv and unlocked the terrible skill of ‘you can literally just say whatever in the same tone as anything else’.
…However I also was not raised christian, so recognize this probably helped.
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Going well so far! I think she’s buying it!
Joycy’s so bad at lying, she’s SUPERBAD!
I’m honestly curious how long we can edge this.
Until it cums i assume.
Exception was both yesterday and four months ago, so strap in.
Three months ago.
Time got confusing for a moment there.
couple months ago Joyce was cracking under the pressure of Christian shame, now she’s way more afraid of disappointing Sarah lol
God isn’t real. Sarah, on the other hand…
…has a baseball bat.
“in” or “on”?
Oh thanks for reminding me Willis compared Joe to a literal kidnapper
Let’s be precise: Willis portrayed Dorothy as having that thought.
Granted, that doesn’t bode well for Dorothy being anything like normal about this relationship until she actually works through some shit with her therapist.
She was absolutely, completely correct about her feelings for Joyce being tangled up in her trauma from the kidnapping, which gives me doubts as to the shelf life of this relationship.
oh dang this just made me realize what my issue with the Dorothy/Joe/Joyce poly ending is. Dorothy’s inner psyche sees Joe as a threat that is on par with a literal kidnapper driving her away forever. Not exactly the easiest dynamic to navigate.
I’ll take “Thing Willis didn’t do.” for $500 Alex.
Accept my $1.00 per year bribe to bring Mike back.
Character opinions =/= artist or author opinions. That’s… a pretty crucially important point when reading and engaging with any form of media.
in their defense, the actual comparison did come from Willis. Jay never said it was Willis’ opinion.
Unless we are talking about a completely different thing no comparison was made by anybody. Joe leaving with Joyce triggered a flashback because Dorothy has PTSD. As somebody with experience having flashbacks that doesn’t mean the thing that caused the flashback and the thing the flashback is about are being compared. Your traumatized brain is just connecting two (often very dissimilar) things and screaming at you “Oh gods, it’s happening again!”
we’re saying the same thing, i just paraphrased it. No Willis did not literally go “hello everyone, Joe sure is like that kidnapper huh”, but he did show that for Dorothy ‘Joyce leaving with Joe’ == ‘Joyce leaving in van’. Those things feel similar to her and within the confines of the narrative are just ‘Joyce is being taken away’. This is an intentional choice by Willis and not the actual ptsd response of a real person.
No, but it is supposed to be the representation of a PTSD response by the character and it’s a damn good and accurate one in my opinion as someone with PTSD. And continuing to frame it as a “comparison” between Joe and a kidnapper just gives Jay more ammo for what seems like a malicious and intentional misreading.
Right. But the comparison didn’t come from Willis. It came from Dorothy. Willis wasn’t comparing the two, they were showing how Dorothy’s issues are causing that comparison to happen For Her.
Authors write characters who are incorrect for whatever reason, and are not actually espousing those views or making similar comparisons.
Goodness.
Not only was that not Willis, I don’t even agree with those who say it was Dorothy[‘s conscious mind]. I think it was very narrowly and specifically Dorothy’s PTSD.
this also seems like a really odd take given that we’ve repeatedly been shown how Amber’s PTSD distorts things, so the idea that Dorothy’s is any more of a Pure Representation is…. very unlikely?
It was basically an intrusive thought, and it absolutely was not a judgment on Joe from Dorothy or Willis.
Or strap on…
I think she bought it.
“Sure, I suppose, in the sense that it’s POSSIBLE that Schroedinger’s Cat is perfectly fine. But I see no evidence of it.”
There’s a very lewd pun about the “opening the [i]box[/i]” in there somewhere, but I got nothing.
Live pussy
I am in awe. That was flawless. If I could shake your hand or buy you a round of your preferred alcoholic beverage, I would.
Guess we can’t trust Sarah either. Shame.
What do you mean?
Sirksom is doing a running bit about not trusting characters 🙂 different one each day.
Is it a bit? Look all I’m saying is lately Sarah’s been acting out of character. Smiling, socializing, working out, liking Joe as a friend and equal?! And what’s it her business if Dorothy and Joyce are slutting it up, or that Jocelyne exists? When the shoe finally drops on Sarah then who will be laughing?! It won’t be a bit then!………But yeah it is a bit now.
There’s only one rational explanation: she’s been bodysnatched.
It makes sense. Amazi-Girl is out of commission, so she couldn’t spoil a snatch.
(Obscure reference to this)
Given the portmanteau of their handle, I’ve found it best to just skip past such contributions.
That’s a decidedly orthogonal take. Who doesn’t want some sirk now and then.
It’s a bit too soon for that.
We’ve just barely hit the confrontation stage. Sarah is trying to give Joyce a chance to come clean.
What happens after that is yet to be seen.
Can ‘a bit’ be too soon?
A bit can only be a bit too soon.
Well, it could also be a bit too late….
I’ll byte. What’re you talking about?
We’d tell you, but it’s too soon.
“Joyce, what did you do?”
“Dorothy! I mean, nothing!”
“Why? Do you think I should?”
In just seven days…
Oooo, at least oldies can get that ref
I strenuously object to the term “oldies”! And I’ve been cautioned by my doctor about doing anything strenuously, so you know I’m serious!
Planet Schmanet Janet!
Promise you won’t tell Brad?
I thought it was the real thing!
…I’m going to make you a man?
I love Rocky Horror references, but only once in a while xD
I think Sarah is being awfully patient here
She now she will dig her grave on her own.
Yes. Patient, and awful.
And your avatar demonstrates exactly how proud of herself Sarah is for being who she is, of which I fully approve.
Sarah, you’re the best. You’re the best at being the worst, and the world needs your worst, because it’s the best. So keep doing your worst!
Bold strategy.
“Let’s see if it pays off!”
CALL HER OUT CALL HER OUT CALL HER OUT
Oh she’s clearly already out. She’s 10+ ft out, but has pulled the closet door off its hinges and brought it with her.
“Dammit, Joyce! You’re making me put on my EVEN SNARKIER FACE!”
Possible, but… unlikely, given the immediate evidence.
saving that first panel as a reaction image
beautiful, no notes
See, this is what I was talking about when I wanted to get on with the drama. It’s slow-burn drama and it’s delicious and filling.
(To extend the food metaphor, all the kissy-face stuff with J&D was like watching a dude select his charcoal and hardwoods and clean the grates which is all in theory necessary but doesn’t really activate my neurons to watch it happening, but THIS is the sizzle of that brisket hitting the smoker and the smell starts coming up)
Yes. You get me.
You are of course welcome to that opinion but I enjoyed every bit of it and hope to also see more throughout!
I just personally couldn’t really connect with it before, somehow… but now we’re getting to the part I was waiting for.
Just happy folks are enjoying it, hope we all get as much of what we can get as is feasible.
Me too, it was nice to get a little peek at how important it was to Joyce and Dorothy, how strong their feelings are, and how unable they are to just keep apart for a few days. Now on with the show!!
This exactly.
Interesting. I’m exactly the opposite. I just want to get through all the drama and back to the kissing.
I’m not even particularly tolerant of the kissing when it’s my ship, let alone the one currently sinking my ship.
I love the taste of Jalapenos but a little bit goes a long way.
Chipotle is more understated, but I have yet to get too much.
Dammit (Janet!) just tell her!
“When we made it, did you hear a bell ring?”
It meant an angle got her wings.
the only think going through my mind rn is,
😳 I’ll be in my bunk…
‘Cause Dorothy’s in Joyce’s.
She’s got a name! I call her Vera.
Thank you Vera Much.
I fear for Sarah’s spine if she has to suspiciously tilt her head back for a few more rounds of this.
She’s gonna end up looking like Reverse Michael Jackson in Smooth Criminal.
Boa Hancock?
Ah, Dorothy’s version of Joe’s ‘oh god, I’m into that.’ Silently suffering under the covers.
Honestly out of everyone Joyce could be having this conversation with first, Sarah’s probably the LEAST awkward option for her?
They do have a friendship that while never devoid of judgment, seems to supersedes it and even be strengthened by their mutual ability to love each other despite and because of their differences. Joyce would likely be most comfortable talking to Sarah of all her close friends.
On the other had, Sarah is also basically a big sister or mother figure to Joyce. The disapproval must be crushing in away it would never be coming from Sal or Ruth. The nature of Sarah’s relationship to Joyce turns, “Joyce, as your friend, I don’t think you should be doing that” into “I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed.”
Which is also hilarious because not too long ago (in-universe) Sarah was trying to sabotage Joyce and Joe and one of the people she tried to get for it was Dorothy, specifically calling out her and Joyce having a weird thing going on. Alas, Dorothy wasn’t there to hear that bit.
Sarah could respond to this ANY WAY AT ALL.
Joyce is giving it her (not so) straight.
Oh, poor Joyce. She COULD just say “Sarah, you are an important friend, but I’m figuring out some stuff I don’t want to talk about yet now” and not be having to make that goofy awkward face.
She won’t of course. She absolutely won’t. Because Joyce.
oh god. sarah. sarah save me. save me sarah.
With all the discussion about Jorothy lately I’ve done a lot of thinking about why I don’t vibe with it. I don’t quite feel like I agree with the paladins or the sickos so I had to do some self analysis.
-Is it because of the cheating?
Honestly this element doesn’t bother me too much. Like I think cheating is bad but I’m not the kinda person who gets up in arms about it. It’s not like I of all people have a moral compass haha.
-Is it due to framing it around a “Bulmeria” protest?
I definitely don’t like that element and this entire arc would be better if they’d just left that part out.
-Is it because it enfangers one of my favorite couples, Joeyce
This may be the most likely. Joe and Joyce had single handedly become my favorite part of this comic in the past few years and so I feel like it’s getting dumpstered in favor of this couple. But I don’t think thats the whole story.
I’ve done some soul searching. Wondering if maybe it’s some subtle internalized homophobia or something that makes me hate this gay relationship. But then I started thinking about how much I like Joyce with other female characters and it finally hit me.
I. Don’t. Like. Dorothy.
And I don’t think I ever have.
Like even when she was dating Walky the first time I always felt like “really? Her?” But I just kinda let it slide. Looking back on it I was pretty dang happy when they broke up. And even happier when he got with Amber. I don’t even think I liked her with Danny for the very brief period of time *that* was happening.
Dorothy is like the exact kinda person I just don’t vibe with. She’s a fuddy duddy. A real fuss budget teachers pet type. The wettest blanket. I’m not crazy about how she treats Walky or Joyce and definitely not Danny. On top of that, she’s just not my type. I gravitate more to thicc girls (as you may have noticed) but I’m not the biggest fan of blondes. It could be because in the US a lotta people treat being blonde like some inherently attractive trait and it’s just…never appealed to me. And seeing it pushed kinda made me like blondes less. Which is kinda the other problem. Joyce and Dorothy are both blonde bespectacled white girls. They’re sooo visually similar it just hits me wrong. Almost feels like they’re related. They’re the most visually similar couple in the entire comic. Feels almost masturbatory. And with this new character breakdown she’s going through I just don’t really vibe with her.
Like when it comes to Joyce I like a lot of other potential sapphic ships for her.
-joyce and Liz
two former fundies going against their programming. Liz trying to lead Joyce to try new stuff only to need Joyce’s help to actually guide her through it when things get scary.
-Joyce and Jennifer
Joyce has already expressed explicit attraction to Billie and she’s actually done a lot to help Joyce out of her shell. I could see her going full bisexual sugar mama on Joyce.
-Joyce and Carla
Joyce and Carla actually have really good chemistry and Carla is actually quite civil with her. I don’t doubt carla’s sex repulsion would be fine with Joyce but maybe if there are moments she wants more? That’s good drama there.
-Joyce and Becky
It basically writes itself. The drama of Becky now having a fully committed love interest now having to wrestle with her childhood crush finally reciprocating her feelings after a lifetime of waiting. The sickos say they want drama. Now THAT is drama.
-Joyce and Sierra
They had one nice conversation. Therefore they should smooch.
I could go on. I think Joyce is actually a quite malleable character relationship wise. Would you believe there’s an alternate reality where she dates Walky? But when it comes from Dorothy I feel like it would be so much more fun watching her flounder with her feelings for Joyce while Joyce is content and happy with Joe for a while longer. I think THAT frustration is the most interested I’ve been with Dorothy as a character. To want someone who is taking, believing you’re not even the best for them but desiring them all the same. That hits me right here (points to where a human beings heart would be). But so far the cutesy stuff just hasn’t really interested me. I think in theory they’re cute but I just don’t vibe with Dorothy and that spoils it for me. Which makes all those previous issues seem so much worse.
So yeah.
Also sorry if you are similar to Dorothy. I dont mean to imply you shouldn’t date joyces. I just wouldn’t want to read a book about it.
For me, I feel like before the time skip Dorothy was written to be rather… boring, in a way. No offense meant, of course, it’s just that in a cast of very comical and interesting characters, you’re right that Dorothy’s role before the time skip was usually saying “don’t do that” to characters. Part of that is because whereas a lot of the characters have complicated upbringings and parental relationships that inform a lot of their personality and quirks, Dorothy’s parents were squeaky clean and perfect. Dorothy was perfect in turn.
The arc where she broke up with Walky was probably the first time that perfect facade broke, as Dorothy was trying to have her cake and eat it too with Walky (“We’re casual but also I love you”) and couldn’t balance that with her schoolwork. I do think Dorothy’s character has gotten a lot more interesting since the timeskip and I think it’s because the ‘burnt out gifted kid who is definitely undiagnosed neurodivergent with PTSD that’s flaring up’ vibe resonates with me. But I can completely understand if that means she still just doesn’t vibe with you. She still tries to bend herself backwards in ways that make even me roll my eyes a little, she’s definitely still got a way to go clearly!
Honestly, given her parents insistence that she doesn’t *have* to become president, and the only thing that matters is what makes her happy… I can’t help but wonder where Dorothy’s intense need for perfectionism comes from. If her parents weren’t the one to push her like this, who or what did?
I wonder if it may be school-related, like a teacher took her under their wing but then also put a lot of expectations on her to live up to.
I have a weird theory that she was the “gifted kid who had no social skills” type, where while she wasn’t ostracized per say, she wasn’t part of any group of friends.
I have this feeling she and Danny were neighbors, and they were friends due to that. just sort of fell into each other, and once puberty hit, they latched on because hormones.
She saw how easy it was for Joe and Danny to make friends, but how none of those friends really noticed her as anything but a hanger on. Leading to the start of the political dream “they’ll *have* to listen to me if I’m president! I’ll pick better options then belching the alphabet like that stupid Joe, who shouldn’t be popular at all!” and that just became her whole persona.
So she read a lot of books about politics, a lot of books about lots of things, but she’s only *ever* read books about stuff, she’s never actually DONE anything.
And then she starts college as a know nothing know it all but everyone *assumes* she’s a know it all. Because she’s more put together then the rest of the cast.
I could absolutely see that, because even though Joyce is the one who was homeschooled, not only do we know Becky was her besty growing up but Joyce had a bunch of other kids she’d hang out with and even a crush like Tristan. Meanwhile I think all we know from Dorothy’s backstory is Danny, and Joe as Danny’s plus one.
Her failure to relate to the others when she wanted to be an RA also made it clear that she’s really out of her depth when it comes to befriending others.
Maybe her parents are so calm and acceptiing, that she’s grown up with a wierd desire to either prove herself worthy of them, or just to something, anything, big enough to get a reaction from them?
Or something else entirely. I wonder if we will ever get any more background on it!
I also am a burnt out perfectionist former gifted kid with chill parents! Where did it come from? I have no idea!
Praise is a trap. Especially as youngsters, we can develop a desperate need to not disappoint our adults, and it leads to all kinds of complications, not to mention a lifelong drive to seek approval even at our own expense or to keep from getting that praise in the first place by turning our lives into complex systems of avoidance by acting against our own self interests.
I can’t tell you what backstory Willis has in mind for her, but I went to school with a looot of Dorothy IRLs. For the ones I knew, it was usually a combo of presdisposition toward anxiety plus college prep grind culture. Some outwardly ‘nice’ seeming parents mean well, but are helicopter parents (anxiety runs in families.) Gifted kid burnout also a big one. You’ve always been praised as the perfect student, adults expect you to go to Yale and win a Nobel prize, and you’re terrified of failure because you’ve never experienced it before (hi, Walky.) Kids and their families were sold a lie that they could do anything, if they just did well enough in school. That’s the American Dream.
Tequila Mockingbird – OCD adjacent is a cruel taskmaster.
Truer words never spoken.
Liz and Joyce has some potential
like
I really wish Liz would come back somehow, whether or not she gets together with Joyce
like she has an avatar that we see here all the time, and was present for like, one storyline and just disappeared,
Liz has some real potential as someone other than Joyce being the Christian Atheist to learn some real important lessons from interacting with Jews and Muslims in the strip alike, among other things
I forget which school Liz is at, but I wonder if it has a culinary program…
because Joe/Liz could be a nice set up.
I think in some ways Sarah’s brain would (hilariously) break if she and Joyce literally became sisters (in-law.)
Liz is such a fun character and I get WHY she’s not recurring in the same way that Jocelyne hadn’t reappeared until JUST now, but she’s left such a strong impression on the characters in just her brief tenure I’d love to see her rejoin the cast for like…a week. (which for us would be years).
right???
#FreeLizFromBallState
tee hee hee. Ball State.
I respect this take so much of my frustration with paladins is them not admiting that disliking dorothy or even dorothy and joyce together is more of a factor than “morality” if its just “I don’t like this ships” you know what I respect that not all this “the sinners must be punished” thats been going on in the comics the last few days.
Agreed, I think a lot of people need to understand that they can just say “I don’t like this” and the conversation can be done, they don’t have to assemble the right dialogue tree to convince the jury why their stance is the objectively correct and morally right one and anyone who doesn’t agree is morally wrong.
There’s a significant difference between not liking a ship and seeing the ship as trying to rationalizing cheating. Like was said yesterday, we’re worried this will be presented as “Cheating was bad, BUT I found my soul mate because of it, so it all worked out for the best!”
I’d like to believe Willis is more skilled than that, but anxiety isn’t rational.
I understand that, I’d say my problem is like that one person who was arguing that if you break up with someone and then get into a relationship afterwards (or break up to start a new relationship) that that is a morally wrong thing to do and people shouldn’t date someone who would do that.
You know what? If it was that, it would be perfectly okay. This is just a random wedcomic on the internet it doesn’t need to have perfect morals.
“This just some random webcomic, it doesn’t matter” is kind of a bleak way to defend art you enjoy
I don’t care
neat
I will never understand watching literature through binoculars at a distance from the fourth wall, cynically brushing aside any involvement with the story. It’s fun to commit to literature, to go inside that world for a while.
If the literature in question isn’t up to the task I won’t bother with it in the first place.
(I’ve been reading DOA for many years)
Of course portraying bad actions does not constitute endorsement of those actions. Down that road lies censorship-minded ‘million mom’ busibodies
The more I think about it, the more I think that some of the people on the “I don’t like seeing art where bad actions are presented as okay, actually” bus might well be reacting to the world we live in now.
I don’t think, for example, that it’s unreasonable to think that there’s a point where fictional characters condoning awful actions IS a problem in literature — things like The Turner Diaries, Atlas Shrugged, etc, that is propagandizing an obviously harmful worldview.
I also don’t think it’s necessarily unreasonable, in the current era where we see things like “the youtube algorithm leading people from ‘zany gamer asshole’ videos to ‘actual nazi propaganda’ in as few as 3-4 steps”, for people to believe that there’s not really such a thing as “any random small channel/comic/media” anymore in terms of impact.
Unreasonable starts to creep in where we start conflating those two things with the idea that “college kids cheating and it eventually works out” is the same as, say, “actual right-wing propaganda”.
But I am not sure that it’s NECESSARILY a bright line so much as a big smear of on-the-surface reasonable propositions that can sometimes combine into something that looks like over-moralizing.
This is a great point and I think is a driving factor for some folks. I know my relationship to media has changed for similar reasons.
I’m not personally as bothered by the cheating arc. I’ve been in both Joyce’s and Joe’s positions, and neither feels great. Exploring the drama from multiple character perspectives is actually something I’m looking forward to, because art at its best helps us understand ourselves better. But I get why it might be hard for people not to see this arc and, aside from any personal trauma they might have, may also wonder if they’re being sold something darker as being acceptable.
Cheating is just not morally equivalant to nazis or abusive relationsips or murder or being a alcoholic or cannibalism or whatever people say to guilt people about the cheating. I personally don’t care about cheating in fiction I didn’t care in harley quinn season 3 and I don’t now. I think its personally reasonable to have a line where fictional actions go too far everone has that line. Its wrong in my opinion to force that line on others unless its like literal nazi being potrayed as good but currently such comparisons are disrespectful if anything.
That’s exactly what Big Z said: “Unreasonable starts to creep in where we start conflating those two things with the idea that “college kids cheating and it eventually works out” is the same as, say, “actual right-wing propaganda”.”
But that being a level where it becomes unreasonable doesn’t mean the idea doesn’t creep into social attitudes and influence the discourse.
I’m also not so sure that problems don’t start well before actual right wing propaganda. We critique things like representation in media or cis/heteronormative assumptions all the time.
Just responding here, I think this is a great take and worth thinking about. Plus it should be mentioned that even when a work explicitly says something like “don’t do bad guys things” there are people who somehow miss that completely. Like the goobers who claim Star Trek isn’t political, or that bastard (not saying his name because I don’t want to give him traffic) who named his company after Saruman’s seeing stone. Way to out yourself as the fucking villain, bruh.
Yeah I dislike the idea that Willis is “glorifying” cheating because some people are going to think willis is glorifying cheating regardless of how this plays out. Depiction is not endorsment but some people will see it that way just some people love homelander and thinks hes the hero or that walter white was the good guy. Because media literacy is so bad unless the villian goes “Hey kids this is bad don’t do it at home its seen as “glorifying” or endorsing bad actions.
Writing it off like that though is the opposite media literacy fallacy. That some people will misread it regardless doesn’t mean that any negative reading is a misreading. Obviously we don’t yet know how it will all play out, but the Kiss scene in particular was very clearly framed in a very positive, romantic fashion. It’s not bad media literacy to acknowledge that.
My relationship to media has changed, too.
I have even less patience for arguments that we need to “think of the children” and make sure all media is appropriate for kids.
That argument is doing real damage to real people, not hypothetical damage, like the idea that someone might read The Turner Diaries and become radicalized*.
“Think of the children, aren’t you worried they might see that” is the argument that was used to first attack books for adults, actually, but also got age-appropriate literal children’s books banned just for “being about a kid with two mommies” or “being about a kid who’s Black”, because the censors in charge have decided that “””DEI””” is inappropriate for kids.
It’s the argument that’s being used to push online IDs in the UK right now, which was allegedly meant to keep kids from using porn sites**, but is also being used to block their access to Wikipedia while they try to pressure Wikipedia to alter its articles that are (accurately) critical of, like, the Tories.
Like, this is not a slippery slope argument, it is pattern recognition.
* The Turner Diaries cannot radicalize anyone. It’s extremely unpersuasive. It’s gross, but not dangerous. People claiming it “turned” them racist are just lying, they were very much already racist before they read it. Ditto Atlas Shrugged.
The “YouTube / TikTok algorithm funneled me from gaming content to Nazis” problem is real, but it’s also not happening in a vacuum. Kids who fall down that rabbit hole need more support at home, they need to be taught critical thinking (and explained to that letting “””AI””” do their homework is a terrible, self-defeating thing to do), etc. The problem isn’t so much the YouTube channels existing, although Google and Facebook deliberately stepping back and letting “””alt-right””” content flourish in clear violation of their own TOS and hate speech law should also be addressed — but it’s not that the ideas have some sort of evil magic power. This isn’t the One Ring, tempting people. It’s more complicated and deeper.
The gamers to antifeminist to general anti-social justice YouTube to “””alt right””” to mask-off Nazis pipeline is not causing structural societal problems, it’s reflecting them. Destroy the mirror if you want, but it would be a better use of our time to educate our kids, and pay more attention to both local and federal politics (like who’s running for school boards) in the future.
** honestly I don’t think we should leave unquestioned the idea that seeing porn is automatically traumatizing for kids, especially when by “kids” we also mean teenagers. America is very puritanical about sex, and England doesn’t seem any better. It’s still extremely telling that they keep characterizing this as “protecting kids from porn”, and really what they’re doing is preventing kids from being able to access, just as one example, suicide prevention resources.
Just replying to say THIS to this. THIS to all of this and I truly hate being alive right now.
I have unironically seen people say that gay characters existing in shows aimed at ADULTS is pedophilia or will lead to pedophilia. These arguments about should “media portray bad things” is as old as time and the puritanical side has always pushed for censorship. It happened with the Hayes Code it Happened with the Comic Code Authority after Seduction of the Innocent was published. I am a adult even if this strip was “glorifying cheating” I am intelligent enough to know cheating is wrong and I would never do it in real life.
Thanks, both of you.
Also an internet gesture of support Yoto. 😞 Taking it one day at a time here but this is definitely the worst timeline.
ALSO: I feel the need to add, I KNOW my feelings about “think of the kids” being used as a cudgel against ^^^^ all of that risk bleeding through these conversations, and I swear I am doing my best not to lash out at folks who just don’t like seeing what they feel is a rosy, positive portrayal of cheating, because I know people do have legit reasons for feeling that way.
I apologize for any point where I’ve failed and it’s bled through anyway. I think the proposals are misguided, but I don’t think anyone in this comment section is in any way intentionally mimicking this dangerous rhetoric.
“I don’t want to read stories where that happens” is completely fine! “I want to talk about the ways in which I think this story is portraying cheating positively” is also completely fine.
“I don’t think stories where that happens should exist” is where I feel the need to push back. And I’m really trying to be gentle in that pushback. I really don’t want anyone to feel like I’m accusing them specifically of setting up book bans, and I am definitely not assuming malicious intent from anyone.
But yeah. The current climate is affecting all of us, for sure. It’s making some of us want more restrictions on media — and it’s making others of us ever more wary about what happens when media is restricted.
RELATED ADDENDUM:
Another factor in the “gamer to Nazi” pipeline is that teenagers have a real genuine emotional need for dumb edgy counterculture.
It’s just part of adolescence! Pushing boundaries! Offending old people! Dead baby jokes and the like are literally an important developmental stage.
My generation needed its South Park. And some people never grow out of that, sure, but everyone needs something like it at some point.
And Gen Z and Gen Alpha really aren’t being allowed their version of it — because of the loss of third spaces. No one has a MySpace or a Livejournal to share their stupid seventeen-year-old bullshit with just a few friends anonymously, it’s all happening in public, on TikTok or Instagram or Twitter, where adults react with predictable horror and moralizing.
Except, of course, for the alt-right folks, who are all too happy to use “gosh you can’t joke about anything anymore, can you? Come hang out with me, I’ll let you use all the words that make other adults cringe!” as recruitment.
So that’s another thing we need to fix. Better home environments, better critical thinking skills, and spaces where teenagers can be stupid edgy assholes without receiving immediate adult judgment for it. That’s gonna mean the restoration of anonymous spaces, not more ID Verification, and also undoing all of the hostile architecture our real-world public spaces are currently rife with.
More benches, more public bathrooms, no more anti-loitering laws that punish teenagers and unhoused people while doing literally nothing for crime.
Mmm, I kinda feel like we’re on flip sides of a very similar point — stuff from The Turner Diaries to Atlas Shrugged to PragerU all DO suck and are generally unpersuasive, and can only be effective propaganda in a media and social environment where people are kinda pre-programmed to buy into their ideas. My own personal position is much, much closer to “destroy the pipeline” rather than “destroy the mirror”, if that makes sense — people (including teens) who are well read, well-informed, and have been mostly exposed to pro-social ideas as opposed to anti-social ones are not going to have much of a problem with any radically harmful works, or really any works at all aside from the normal and highly individualized developmental appropriateness.
I am, however, also rather sympathetic to the Popper argument of tolerance not being a suicide pact, and as such I also UNDERSTAND the argument that we should be able to morally judge fiction with harmful ideas, and that is not the same as when the Nazi side morally judges fiction with non-harmful ideas that they don’t like.
I’m also coming at it from a very tired place of knowing that the nazi jerks will use “think of the CHIIIIILDREN” arguments to hurt people and ban perfectly harmless representation of ordinary people regardless of what arguments the rest of us do or don’t use to prevent nazi and other harmful ideas from creeping into the mainstream, and as arguments about hypocrisy and fairness do not work on them I am sometimes inclined to just burn their books back rather than take any kind of high road.
They’re already burning our books.
I don’t want to legitimize that.
Also, there’s a difference between “don’t put restrictions on what can be portrayed in fiction” and “tolerate Nazis”, or “give Nazis a platform to share their ideas”.
If you let Nazis into your bar, it becomes a Nazi bar.
But Nazis aren’t an idea being portrayed in fiction, they are people who do violence to others. It’s not difficult to say “no Nazis on YouTube”, and again them being on the platform is in violation of already existing ToS that isn’t being enforced. We don’t need new, additional rules that are nominally to prevent Nazis from being allowed on YouTube, but in practice just get LGBTQ+ content hidden, blocked, and banned.
I’m just anti-censorship in general. Even if I think some things are bad and shouldn’t be seen, hiding them only exacerbates the harm they can do. You have to be able to talk about these things so we can publicly discuss WHY these things are harmful or bad. Or even why they ARE NOT harmful or bad. Censorship is the weapon of fascism. Ignorance is a virus.
Also that, honestly.
And, of course, censorship is not a scalpel, it is a sledgehammer. As we’ve seen IRL over and over and over and over (and over), attempts to ban “racist content” (for example) don’t just hit The Turner Diaries, they hit Huckleberry Finn. Attempts to ban “incest” and “rape”? Well, congratulations, you just blocked a lot of really important material — sex education, crisis hotlines, forums for survivors.
And again I cannot stress that I’m not making a slippery slope argument or catastrophizing — I’m talking about the real effects attempts to ban these topics have really had! “Strikethrough”, as it’s called, was when LiveJournal deleted and purged hundreds if not thousands of journals and communities, and communities specifically for survivors of rape and incest were among those that not only got purged but never came back.
Trying to burn Nazi books has just historically never worked out, not even once.
Like Yoto said, this is a tool of fascism. It’s not a tool we’ve ever successfully used against fascist, and we should probably stop trying.
@Li And then we have the issue where someone starts banging on about what “should be allowed” to portray in a webcomic or in somebodies fanfic and people will say “Well it’s just fandom. That’s not going to effect public discourse.”
As if the fact that you saw them complaining about a webcomic or a fanfic keeps them off your kids school board, out of your town hall meeting, or off the FCC. If someone advocates for something to be censored one place they aren’t going to stop there when given the opportunity to help censor it somewhere else.
@Proxiehunter: There ARE people who only try to control what folks put in fanfic, because fanfic authors are bullyable in a way that major film studios aren’t… but.
Yeah, basically.
Some of you are worried about that, not all of you, heh.
Maybe it’s just me but I think the stakes are low enough here that you can tell a love story with cheating involved without condoning it overall. I got some heat for apparently justifying cheating for saying this but I’ll say it again.
Joyce and Joe aren’t married. Walky and Dorothy aren’t married. The relationships are weeks old or weeks newly rekindled. Walky/Lucy might have even lasted longer.
So yeah this cheating has happened, but I don’t think it will be the end of the world. I think part of growing up is realizing sometimes relationships are messy and you have room to make mistakes on your path to growing up and yes even finding love in life.
Shoo, not being reasonable in the comments! Only outrage!
Gonna have to disagree.
No cheating has happened. Neither relationship had a monogamy agreement. No agreement, no cheating. And assuming monogamy is the default is just silly. Dorothy and Walky didn’t even have a hint of an agreement, Joe might have assumed, but there wasn’t one there either.
As far as I’m concerned, the real sickos are the people who assume monogamy is the default relationship status.
So weird that the author says he’s writing a cheating arc, all the characters involved are treating as at least bad, if not explicitly cheating, but Vic here knows better and everyone else is a sicko.
brother’s perceiving a whole reality
As a poly person, I’m kinda weirded out by the argument that the vast majority of humans in the developed world are sickos.
You should really re-evaluate your view of the comic. It’s clearly being portrayed as cheating.
Sure, but that’s obviously only because Willis is a sicko with a warped view of human nature, probably from his fundamentalist upbringing. Otherwise, he (and all his characters) would realize that cheating is only possible with a formal monogamy agreement.
[snark, if it wasn’t obvious]
yeah like I too have cheating trauma involving parents but a two week relationship is not at all equivalent to a marriage.
Also, it’s really easy to say “cheating is bad” and really annoying to have to write “Yes, but really I just think Dorothy and Joyce are bad together and here is why” whenever I feel like expressing disappointment with a development.
I will say, to the top comment, I never considered Joyce and Billie but I absolutely would devour that ship. That would be terrible in so many ways, but also just so much more fun to read lol.
And where is the problem here? They are all 18/19 year olds with relationships that haven’t even existed a month. Just chill out yall
It might not be what you mean, but this reaction in what is largely a relationship drama story seems really odd to me. It feels like “Don’t care about this because none of these relationships actually matter.” In which case, like half the point of the comic goes away.
They’re supposed to be important. They’re important to the characters.
No its don’t attack other people over a fictional strip and use it to attack there character in real life.
I’m sure there are people who are saying something like that and meaning it exactly that way (for example, some people don’t care about Joe at all), but I do think mooooostly when folks say “chill out, it’s just a comic,” they’re not talking about caring about what happens to the characters in a comic strip we all enjoy, they’re talking about the few folks who have explicitly said they’re applying a 1:1 real-life judgment of their fellow commenters.
Or the few folks who have indicated they’re experiencing a LOT of psychological distress over what’s happening, which is different from just caring about the characters.
It would be neat like, overall, if internet comments all came with a little “readers added context” box, explaining exactly what a given person is reacting to, because without that, we are all kind of guessing.
Doopyboop, yeah! Thing is, these are all just personal opinions. and, as such, are neither right nor wrong, they are just what a person thinks. So, absolutely there is no dialogue tree to convince a jury!
Just express personal opinion, as a personal opinion, once only, if you (anyone) wants to.
Shorter comments section!
But how can you claim to be a paladin if punishing the sinners isn’t a core part of your motivations!?
Jokes aside, I want to state for the record that morality is pretty much the biggest reason for my dissatisfaction with the direction things have taken recently. Like, do I like the relationship between Joe and Joyce more than Dorothy and Joyce? Absolutely, I think Joe and Joyce were great together. But I genuinely think I’d be perfectly fine with Dorothy and Joyce if the relationship didn’t start with both the cheating and all the other ways everything about that protest was just completely messed up. Makes the whole thing feel like it’s getting off to a really toxic start and I don’t enjoy reading that.
One of Dorothy’s flaws is she thinks she knows other people better than they know themselves. If someone says they don’t like cheating storylines, don’t pretend you know they secretly just don’t like Dorothy.
I can’t speak for anyone but whenever I saw the moral outrage posts I felt “that’s not quite right” for me. Like it’s part of it, sure but like. I can get over reprehensible behavior. I love both Mike AND Amber and boy of them say and DO some of the most reprehensible shit in the comic and it doesn’t bother me at all. Malaya flatly sucks and I LOVE her and Marcie.
What is the most reprehensible thing Mike did?
Like it seems they sometimes are assholes about stuff, but more in a “you are not acting from a place of virtue” type way.
For example buying Walky a pair of pajama jeans. On one hand, non-virtuous intent because he was trying to sabotage Walky/Dorothy. On the other hand it was something Walky wanted and enjoyed. Mike’s action wasn’t tricking them into having a conflict, rather he was enabling Walky to be who Walky wanted to be.
It seem’s in a way his style of assholery was more about getting people to face uncomfortable truths.
And lowkey I’ll always love him for “Hail Satan!”
It’s funny cuz I was talking with some friends that Dorothy/Joyce is one of those Arcs that would be WAY more fun with Mike alive.
“Wow. So you and Brown finally hooking up. Poor Walky. First his girlfriend dumps him and now his new one is cheating on him. Guy can’t catch a break. But I guess the Lucy thing isn’t your fault. Oh wait. Weren’t you the one who told him to date her? Dang, you must really have it out for him.”
Dang, now I’m sad again that Mike’s dead
Same. Just think of how proud he would be of Joyce that she could hurt Joe so much better than he could by punching. And how glad Joyce would be to hear him say that.
You broke that man in a way I could never manage. Congrats Joyce. You’ve out-Miked me.
To quote Mike himself: “I’ve been poking Amber’s bear for five friggin’ years. She’s multiple time-bombs. Just wind her up and point her dadwards.”
The most reprehensible thing Mike did? In my opinion that was manipulating a teenager into catfishing their admittedly horrible math teacher so she would get fired, then dumping the guy, refusing to even be his friend.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/arrangement/
But some people might prefer him blackmailing Blaine into spending more time with his daughter not realizing what a truly awful person Blaine was and that spending more time with him was bad actually. That likely being the catalyst that resulted in the infamous gas station incident that has gifted Amber with permanent trauma and a disassociated identity. But Amazi-Girl kinda cool so maybe it evened that out.
Like even Mike realized being an asshole to people to help them was more likely hurting them and also making him have something in common with Blaine.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/02-to-remind-you-of-my-love/toughlove/
I was entertained by Mike too. He could’ve had a great redemption arc if he hadn’t died.
Do you seriously think the only reason someone might dislike the cheating is because they don’t like the pairing / one of the characters in it.
For most people here yes I do cheating trauma and projecting there own issues is another but this moral grandstanding is just annoying and unlikely to change anyones mind.
As opposed to calling people liars, which nobody ever finds annoying or unpersuasive.
I dunno, it’s been my experience as a paladin (who doesn’t like the cheating) that people ALSO get mad at me when I express my opinion that “Actually, Joyrothy is a boring-ass couple because Dorothy has all the interest and appeal of wet toast.” and “That strip where Joe and Joyce were leaving on their date and Dorothy is having visions of Joyce getting kidnapped essentially proves to me that Dorothy is nowhere near approaching this relationship in a healthy manner.”
I’m not sure anyone though Dorothy was approaching the relationship in a healthy manner. I don’t recall hearing it claimed. Doesn’t prevent the the relationship from being the right one.
I don’t “admit it”, because it isn’t true. I like Dorothy, and I like Joyce/Dorothy. I would be going awww with the rest of y’all if it weren’t for the cheating.
Fair enough maybe understand that people going aww is not a moral failing on their part. People can either seperate the relationship from the cheating itself or maybe the romance is more important than the cheating or maybe they like myself don’t really care. This is not a reflection of their morality in real life. I am tired of being accused of being a “cheating apologist” when I too have cheating trauma and think its a horrible thing to do in real life.
I think “the romance is more important to them than the cheating” is exactly the thing.
The cheating is “bad” but not a dealbreaker for liking the action.
Wow, I love all of this. Except maybe the idea that people who look similar shouldn’t date, although I agree with you that they do look very similar. In some of Willis’ pencil sketches that were supposedly of Joyce, it looked like Dorothy to me.
Probably my favorite part is that watching Dorothy struggle with unrequited feelings would have been way more interesting. Honestly before Willis pulled the trigger here it was much more interesting to me. I would have liked to see that arc for Dorothy.
Yeah that one’s less of an objective complaint and more of a personal “I don’t personally like this aesthetically.” And honestly it’s probably being exacerbated for my own very subjective preference against blondes.
To be fair while maybe not the full reason you dislike Dorothy she has been acting fairly unlikable this season. Her world view was shattered and she’s basically been spiraling, tantruming, acting selfishly and performative, and she was ultimately rewarded for it. (Even though I don’t really like framing Joyce as a reward). So not liking the relationship does feel valid. They’re both behaving badly and I think the mess of their new relationship will be what they have to suffer through if this actually wants to work as a romance.
I’m glad you said this because it’s been driving me a bit crazy. Dorothy’s crashout legit nearly got people killed. Joyce got grabbed for sticking around because Dorothy was being an idiot, and we just saw the final consequences of Amazigirl’s interference in that debacle. I’m not actually saying Dorothy is responsible for that, of course, but still there was a level of stupid and crazy at play there that should really have some negative consequences.
This is a really interesting comment because I disagree with so much of it — I like Dorothy, I liked Amber and Danny together, Dorothy and Walky are probably one of my favorite couples in the comic, and while I understood why Walky and Amber liked each other, they really annoyed me as a couple — but yet there’s two things you said here that really hit the nail on the head in terms of describing my thoughts about this storyline.
The first is about how much you loved Joyce and Joe together. I’m also sad we’re seemingly jumping ship on that relationship — or at least inalterably complicating or altering it — before we really get to see it played out to its full potential. I’ve loved Joyce and Joe together since It’s Walky! I was rooting for them.
But the larger point for me is about how interesting you found Dorothy floundering with her feelings for Joyce while Joyce is content and happy with Joe. I agree, that was a great dynamic and was doing wonders for Dorothy’s character. But it also drives home for me that most of this story was told from Dorothy’s POV. And I REALLY feel like we’re missing Joyce’s perspective in return. I suppose intellectually there was a lot of set-up for Joyce before the actual kiss — with the Paramore and her asking Dorothy for sex-prep and such — but I really felt like I watched Dorothy GRAPPLE with her bisexuality whereas Joyce just kind of embraced it in a way that didn’t feel as satisfying.
And the way that both Dorothy and Joyce just immediately assumed that because they like each other and kissed once that of COURSE they need to be a couple and everything will work out perfectly grinds my gears. Now don’t get me wrong. I think we’re going to see this latter idea come crashing down around them, and I’m sure we’ll see Joyce have to reckon what it means for her to be queer soon enough. But the narrative weight of this story has not felt equal.
I want to preface this by saying that I’m a full fledged homosexual: but there’s this trope I hate that pops up a lot in young adult fiction where a gay or queer character has a crush on a seemingly straight character, and at the end of the story it turns out that the straight character is actually bi and they get together and everything’s great (the Love, Simon sequel is the first story that jumps to mind for me that I remember doing this and feeling frustrated by it). I feel like it shouldn’t bother me. I like gay relationships! I think they’re great! I’d rather see them in stories than straight ones! But every time the trope happens it feels convenient and like wish-fulfillment and it just absolutely grinds my gears, especially because the story is almost always told though one character’s perspective because the other’s sexuality has to remain a surprise or ambitious. The Joyce and Dorothy story reminds me a LOT of this particular kind of trope.
I like the characters, I like the idea of the relationship, I genuinely even like a LOT of the details of this storyline, especially when it came to Dorothy slowly unraveling her sexuality, but the execution has just felt off to me.
-“But it also drives home for me that most of this story was told from Dorothy’s POV. And I REALLY feel like we’re missing Joyce’s perspective in return.”
Wow I hadn’t even really put it into words but you’re exactly RIGHT. Dorothy’s perspective is our main perspective and it kinda felt like Joyce suddenly met in the middle. Which might be why it felt so sudden for a lot of people. Joyce, who freaks about every minor change in her life, fully reciprocated Dorothy’s feelings with no internal conflicts or struggle. And it’s not that she may not have experienced that. But why didn’t we SEE that? I would have LOVED an arc where both are going back and forth proccessing their feelings, neither wanting to make the first move cuz they’re too worried they’re looking too much into the other’s feelings. A real lesbian sheep moment. God, I want that so bad now.
Also that 5th paragraph reminds me so much of what little I’ve seen of “13 Reasons Why” haha.
> I would have LOVED an arc where both are going back and forth proccessing their feelings, neither wanting to make the first move cuz they’re too worried they’re looking too much into the other’s feelings
I mean there’s an argument that that arc exists and is the entire comic.
There’s an argument for that and it’s true in a sense, but we saw Dorothy become aware of it and struggle a bit with accepting it. Up until the scene in bed before her date with Joe, there was no sign that Joyce was consciously processing it at all. And even then it wasn’t clear.
The key here is consciously.
I think it was dependent on how much you were willing to read between the lines. And of course what you read between the line (or at least what I read between the lines) isn’t always there.
I think maybe you’ve forgotten all of Joyce’s development until now. She fully reciprocated Dorothy’s feeling because she was already in love with her. Possibly from day 1.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/04-for-me-it-was-tuesday/iloveyous/
This cute conversation dismissed as just women being more emotionally open is just being in love with Dorothy already. She basically just needed someone to say sex with her would probably be cool right? And she received a double whammy on the same day by the two best queer disasters that have already majorly skewed how Joyce views relationships with women.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/fingering/
The strip after that one is probably better but you can see the gears turning in her head. Then of course there’s the GOAT who further corrupts Joyce with basically every conversation they have.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/nobigdeal/
So you sat she reciprocated too quickly with no struggle but I say one of Joyce’s major character arcs for the entire story has been coming to terms with her love for Dorothy and women in general and how to express that.
Plus she’s still with Joe. Don’t think they’re not struggling this is just a honeymoon phase since they’re both high on knowing that being together is even an option they both want.
There are other examples like their bar date, Joyce being irrationally jealous of Walky, Becky skewing what normal skinship is, Joyce having obvious crushes on basically any girl that doesn’t immediately fall into her “sister” folder. (Poor Becky😭) I also have some theories on how Joyce really views romance but I’ll save those for later. I just disagree that Joyce should’ve struggled with this. She’s basically been waiting for Dorothy to kiss her since freshman family weekend. She just didn’t know it.
Yeah. None of this is actually the concept that I want, sorry if that was confusing.
Writing-wise this is like…more foreshadowing than the concept I’m speaking of. It’s less Joyce “wrestling” with the idea and more planting seeds for the audience that Joyce may like Dorothy more than she lets on. I’m saying I want an arc where both fully recognize their feelings for each other but now don’t know if the other reciprocates and therefore hijinks ensue.
Yeah, very much this.
There have been plenty of signs that Joyce was bi, from the very beginning of the comic. We saw plenty of Joyce struggling with the basic concept of being sexually attracted at all. Including very recently in the Joe arc. Despite of course it always been very clear that she was sexually attracted to guys.
We’ve seen no hint of her either struggling with or accepting the idea she was actually bi. Not even awareness that it was a thing she might be.
I guess I’m confused a bit by what you’re talking about. To me most of the comic has been Joyce struggling and fighting against her bisexuality. Very early in the story we were getting strips like this
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/endupgay/
To me it feels like we’ve done that already. Many times. Joyce isn’t really struggling with her sexuality anymore because her religion was the primary source of her anxiety to begin with.
Also to address Yoto. I just think we’re too far along to ever get that kind of mutual apprehension from Joyce and Dorothy. You have to go back and takeaway the kiss (which I know a lot of people don’t even like how that went down) but it’s a cat’s outta the bag situation now. And I don’t think Joyce is the one to be shy about it. That’s Dorothy’s thing. I really think Joyce likes the chase if we really want to get into it. If you look at how she acted around Jacob or even Joe, she goes after what she wants.
What you’re talking about is not what I’m talking about.
I would’ve liked Joyce to
Realize, explicitly (not implicitly) that she likes Dorothy. I want her to internally think about how that’ll change their friendship dynamic, What this means for her attraction in general. And whether or not Dorothy is gay as well. Joyce presumably has TERRIBLE gaydar and clocking whether or not Dorothy is as into her as she is into Dorothy would’ve been fun. As it stands, Dorothy is the only person we see personally have that exact reaction while Joyce is only reactive to Dorothy’s personal understandings. Every post you’ve posted is like a buildup to the big kiss. That’s not what I want. I want fumbling. I want her to be dipping a toe and pulling back when the water is cold. I want “haha just kidding… unless”
Also yeah, we’ve definitely gone too far. That’s why I don’t like it. We went too far too fast and it basically killed a lotta the fun I might’ve gotten with the will they/won’t they. And so far the They Are is on only barely holding my attention and most of that is just “how’s Joyce gonna explain her way outta this pickle”. Because as I said, I don’t really care for dorothy and so I gain less enjoyment from the “cuteness” than I do the drama.
Yes!!!
Joyce just suddenly being OK with all this feels even weirder because the Paramore thing was promptly revealed as bait for us: Dorothy meant it that way, but Joyce didn’t process the lyrics until several strips later, and then she said Joe is her “only exception”. Dorothy, meanwhile, tried to convince herself that none of this was real because trauma apparently pretends to change your sexual and romantic orientation but also doesn’t really…?!?
And speaking of orientations… Joyce is in love with Dorothy, but we still haven’t seen any evidence she finds her sexy, have we? Doing laundry together means you don’t have to engage with each other’s body shape at all, not even with what their genitals are like. Meanwhile, Joyce has all the hots for Joe, and she said yonks ago “if I didn’t have to deal with anything below the neck” about… I think it was Dorothy. That seems to contradict “i could crawl up into them and be safe and warm forever”, but that sounds more romantic than sexual at me even though it was said while staring at Billie’s boobs. So that’s a loose end. It’s probably all resolved somewhere in the buffer…
“… that sounds more romantic than sexual at me”
But look at Joyce’s reactions in the following strip.
Y’know, if we’re really lucky, this setup with Sarah will result in some actual explanations from Joyce about her perspective and decisionmaking as she tries to justify things.
@Pivitor: The “jumping ship” on JoJo bothers me as well. It really felt like we were just getting into their relationship and there was a lot more that could be done with it.
Especially since Willis revealed that he did speed up the DoJo plot. There was originally supposed to be more JoJo first.
You speak my mind here as well.
THIS. Like who knows. Maybe we will have a long period of JoJo with secret cheating. Maybe Poly will happen. Counting Chickens before they hatch and so on. But yeah if we get DoJo by sacrificing Jojo it’ll be one of the worst trade deals I’ve ever been privy to.
Even if it was an inevitable part of the long term plan, we lose a lot of JoJo stuff that was being set up. I could be wrong about this, but I also suspect that if this had been the original plan, JoJo itself would have played out differently, probably to work more in before it blew up.
Poly is possible. Even long secret cheating is possible, though I think more than a few days is really unlikely. Either way, it’s still a huge derail from what was being built up for JoJo.
I agree as someone in the she ra fandom I hate the idea of the “crazy lesbian” the one that had a crush on a girl and as such is doomed to die. I saw that show subverted that trope that the character was not doomed or punished was a good thing. Then I saw so many people be like “this character should of died or be punished” Like do you not understand the optics of that? Similarly straight best friends that seem like they are in love is a trope in media we see constantly and a lot of shows queer bait as a result. So many people are like I wish dorothy agonized in a one sided crush or I wish they would have just stay friends with homoerotic subtext. There are hundreds and thousands of shows and movies that do just that go watch naruto or something.
Yes, this exactly.
Honestly, this.
I respect folks who were really attached to Joe/Joyce and are sad at the possibility of it blowing up forever (I’m still pulling for poly), but there were a surprising number of people who really seemed to think it was not only likely but would be better storytelling if Dorothy’s feelings were unrequited.
DISCLAIMER:
Please consider “a surprising number of people” italicized and bolded and underlined, because that’s what I meant: not, no one should feel that way, but that I was surprised by the popularity of it, especially given Willis’s readerbase.
Something worth considering is that unrequited love is just a very popular way to write romantic tension. Unrequited love is a major feature of PEANUTS of all things. I think of it less as a “infant want these gay girls to date” and more “I relate way more to living someone who doesn’t love me back.” Or even just that struggle of not KNOWING if the other person likes me back.
Mm, I’m sure that’s why at least some folks felt (or still feel) that way!
For me personally, I couldn’t imagine we were about to do Becky Pt 2. It would’ve been SO similar to that first storyline, and some folks specifically wanted it to play out in the exact same way, down to Dorothy kissing Joyce without warning and getting rejected for it.
And I just didn’t see why that would be interesting for Willis to write, never mind any other factors.
I also know I saw some of it coming specifically from folks who dislike Dorothy and just kind of want bad things to happen to her, but I don’t think that’s got anything to do with it being two girls — at least not directly, heh; statistically Dorothy would be more popular with readers if she weren’t a girl.
(Which isn’t me saying anyone has to feel guilty for not liking her! Just, broadly speaking, “default” characters get a lot more grace from all of us, whatever the default might be in your specific society. Everyone else gets scrutinized more, by everyone, for a whole host of complicated factors.)
Now, some of them may be hoping unrequited love will make them like Dorothy more, but I think the vast majority of folks just didn’t want Joe and Joyce to break up, or cheating to happen, or both.
Also appreciate and respect this take!
I disagree about Dorothy, of course, I like her and think she’s very interesting, but there’s nothing wrong with not liking or finding her relatable. 🙂
I think you put it rather well. Funnily enough, I kinda liked Dorothy’s character before the timeskip; for whatever reason I always vibe with goody-two shoes characters who are not sanctimonious about it (we can compare and contrast with Roz).
There was even something interesting going on with her development when it came to her bad grades and her failure to get into Yale.
But the stupid kidnapping arc and her characterization after the time skip made her a lot less endearing and relatable (at least to me). If her characterization was going to focus on her alleged trauma and disillusionment, then during the kidnapping arc she should have tried acting like a leader and FAILED. As it is, she did as well as anyone in her position could have. If her character arc was headed towards disenchantment with the whole idea of being president and an identity crisis, she should have tried to do something leader-like and then completely botched it.
But the way the events unfolded are because Blaine is a lunatic and Ross is an idiot, not because of anything she did.
To wrap up this long tangent: I agree with you, Dorothy is possibly the biggest factor that makes this ship hard to take.
I mean trauma doesn’t really care if you did “everything you could” or whatever, it dtill going to fuck you up. And i don’t get how that example about doing something “leader like” relates to anything, her disillusionment with being president isn’t that she wouldn’t be a good leader, it’s that presidents, historically speaking, do some pretty awful shit even if they tried to do positive change.
Joyce and Billie would have done numbers for me. EHEM. I’ll be over here.
I share some of your feelings about Dorothy, but have some differences as well. Like, I really liked her and Walky the first go around because their strips together were generally when I liked Dorothy most. In general, I didn’t like her– but also different, she’d totally be someone I would have hung with around this age. I just didn’t enjoy her character.
Until the pining! She really got me with the pining. The yearning. The ache. Actually, there’s been some stuff outside of that post-timeskip for me, but that had been a lot of getting me interested in her character.
(Also, Joyce and Dorothy don’t hit that similar visually to me, but… I have had that feeling with thinking people (mostly people who have the same shade of blond hair) look related enough that seeing them be romantic feels weird. This is not a rational judgment, I know! But I get you there.)
I don’t like that Dorothy seems to see Joyce as this fragile thing that has to be protected at all costs. Her relationship with Joyce always seemed more parental than partnership. She has a lot of “here, let me do this for you” moments with Joyce. She doubled down on this after the time skip, because Joyce became the center of her trauma after the big kidnapping. (Remember her flashing back to Blaine’s van driving away when Joyce was walking off for her date with Joe?) And don’t even get me started on the bit with the dryers; that was exploitative at best, predatory at worst.
Meanwhile, Joyce’s characterization has been bent into a silly straw to make Jorothy happen. Suddenly Joyce is okay with cheating, when the idea flustered her when he found out about their dryer ride? Dorothy tells her to her face that she’s entitled to her affections now so she must immediately break up with Joe, and she goes along with that?
It’s not going to be pretty if Joyce gets annoyed by her overbearing tendencies again. (Assuming we ever see any conflict between them.)
Dorothy’s still got PTSD from the kidnapping, and she’s racked with guilt because Joyce became the primary victim after her escape plan fell apart. Some piece of her feels like it’s her fault Joyce got taken away in that van, so keeping her cozy and warm under her wing forever is the solution to
keeping her safesoothing that guilt.Just to note: I don’t think Joyce actually is okay with cheating; she’s just burying it with New Relationship Energy. Whenever she remembers it’s a thing that’s happening, she feels guilty about it until she gets distracted by being a horny idiot.
Evidence of both of my arguments here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/clocked-2/
Joyce and Billie would be so fun haha, with Billie’s stereotypical popular it girl personality and Joyce being a dork.
Re:people who look similar, in a relationship. Lots of same-sex couples look like each other; some even do it on purpose (getting the same haircut, etc).
Also, personally I don’t like Joyce while Dorothy is (currently?) one of my favorites which I think is an interesting juxtaposition to your preferences! Dorothy shot up my rankings ever since she turned angsty.
yeah i’m pretty much with you. I just think they’re a kinda milquetoast boring couple, but they aren’t *bad*. No shade to the shippers I’m just a humble Hater trying to make my living.
Anyway the REAL crackship is Joyce/Ruth. I will not elaborate.
I’ll even go so far as to say that they COULD be interesting, as soon as the rose colored glasses come off and they actually have to seriously grapple with Dorothy’s current set of issues on top of what the friend group is going to think about all this.
Dorothy off-panel desperately fighting the urge to defend Joyce’s lying skills citing lying with her all night as evidence.
Joyce’s fifth panel expression say “Crap, even I don’t buy that.”
“I am Mike [horrified face] Ker. Zi. Kew. Ski?”
“I am Mike [horrified face] Ker. Zi. Kew. Ski?”
Meep
did you hear that?
do you SMELL that?
the certain smelly smell
the certain smelly smell that smells,
smelly.
This fell like a reference I don’t get
Spongebob Squarepants. I’ll spare you the details, mostly because the show is very old now and should probably be put to rest.
hey now, RECENT spongebob has gotten stale but like
I will always love classic Spongebob from before season 7
RIP Stephen Hillenburg T-T
“Very old now.”
Excuse me while I find a hole to crawl into and die.
,it be easy with old you are
The Classics live forever, or at least allow you to riff on them for a LOT longer than the ephemera of the moment.
Like, We still make references to Bugs Bunny. Dude is almost a hundred years old.
The gif about him sawing off florida is from 1949!! I’ve seen it in use every week for years.
As you said, classics are classic because they stand the test of time.
NGPZ’s reference, I’m fairly certain, is a reference to an early episode of Spongebob Squarepants. It’s a line from Mr. Krabs in reference to… either anchovies or maybe some scheme of his arch-rival Plankton. It’s been like 20 years since I’ve seen the episode so I don’t know. That quote just imprinted itself on my brain in isolation.
Literally the first episode. It *is* anchovies, plankton has nothing to do with it. Spongebob comes back from shopping for a hydrodynamic spatula with port and starboard attachments and turbo drive and prepares burgers for all the anchovies, saving Squidward and Mr. Krabs and proving he’s the best fry cook in bikini bottom .
Okay, see… I had a feeling that was the episode, but I wasn’t 100% certain. Like I said, been a long, long, long time since I watched Spongebob.
Oh same, it’s just burned into my brain.
My freshman year of college, 2007, I was mad at Nickelodeon for delaying/messing with the final season of Avatar: The Last Airbender. I looked at the schedule for a random week of Nick programming and they had 24 hours of Spongebob and a half hour of Avatar.
Sarah’s facial expressions in this one are EVERYTHING XD
Man, it is a good thing Joyce didn’t know she was queer until now. Can you imagine she trying to stay in the closet around her mother or her church?
Wow… that’s actually a simultaneously heartbreaking and horrifying thought. They probably would have sent her off to conversion “therapy.”
Yeah. And no way they would have allowed her into a liberal college if they had sniffed a whiff of gay on her.
They definitely would have pulled her out of IU and made her go to Anderson, and then she would’ve had more in common with Becky.
I don’t know about conversation therapy exactly, but we’ll see, I think, if that’s what Carol advocates for Jocelyne 🙁
It would have gone very, very poorly.
Idk, maybe she would have learned to lie, because of survival instinct. That’s true of my experience. Although, she would not be the person she is today, if she had done that throughout out her childhood/adolescence.
True, had she realized younger, the entire trajectory of her life’s story would have played out differently. She’d still be “Joyce” but not the “Joyce” we know.
But it Did happen to Becky to an extent.
Dorothy tries to sneak out the window and falls off the side of the building because she’s not Sal.
Maybe she could borrow Joyce’s jetpack vest.
A lot of characters can successfully sneak out of upper floor windows in this comic, but Dorothy doesn’t strike me as one of them.
I doubt Dorothy would even try the window. She’d try to sneak out through the door and get immediately spotted by everyone nearby.
“Dorothy, what are you doing here!?” – Joyce says, Dropkicking her to cover her tracks
Evidence not found.
The first thing to do to persuade someone that you’re telling the truth: emphasize your improved lying abilities.
Works every time. Failproof. What could possibly go wrong.
Funnily enough, that was rather convincing.
For Joyce.
…
That bar is below Blaine.
So, the bar’s about 7 feet below the surface of the earth?
At least.
Or, if you’re religious, considerably further down.
I suppose that depends on which religion. Toe Dad’s sure. Not all religions have a Hell or equivalent thereof though and not all that do conceive of it as being underground.
Plus, some religions, like some versions of Buddhism, which have multiple versions of a “bad place/punishment” afterlife.
A quick google search tells me that Naraka is neither a place you are sent after being judged by a divine being nor permanent, which are both pretty strong distinguishing features when looking for something equivalent to Christian hell.
But Hell isn’t permanent either, you just have to wait until the end of eternity. Totally different.
Unfortunately for Joyce, I do not think she is buying it. Just a hunch, can’t be sure.
This is why I love Sarah. She is perpetually done with your and everyone else’s bullshit.
Ah yes Joyce, the thing you ALWAYS say “Happy STRAIGHT morning” Sarah will never suspect anything. This is a good brain plan.
sarah is being SUCH A GOOD FRIEND right now!! yes joyce u need to be challenged about this!! yeah boi
Dorothy is busy under the covers, chewing through the wall to escape
“Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.”
Sarah is not taking anybody’s bullshit today. Not that she usually does, but especially today.
My partner, reacting to Joyce in today’s comic: “dumbass…”
Me: “Love, this comic is called ‘Dumbing of Age’, not ‘Dumbing of Ass’…”
“Dumbassing of Age”
The disapproving glare slowly creeps up her face…
By Monday’s strip it will have moved up, over and down the back of her head
judgemental sarah is judgemental
Don’t know why but Sarah’s expression in Panel 4 is my favorite one in this strip
Much of this comic is about recovering-fundie issues. Like Joyce has tried to dispose of God, and I’m wondering whether she, and indeed many readers, have thought about the implication of no Gods on the concept of morality. Humans generally have one, whether they think it comes from a God or not. But it might simply be a social construct, as some posters have hinted. A kind of agreement to disapprove of things that screw up the smooth running of society. How aware is Joyce of screwing up the smooth running of society? She knows it happens, but has she yet clocked that: Just because she can now throw away all the religious rules because there is no God, it doesn’t mean there are no consequences? She is lying because she is concerned that something is “wrong”, has she worked out that lying isn’t “wrong”, it just has consequences?
Something i find interesting is how one of the reasons some dislike this development is because they liked Joe and Joyce relationship. Because i also really enjoyed their relationship a whole lot, i was waiting for it to happen for a while, and yet i cannot relate to that felling. I enjoyed Joeyce and now i also enjoying jorothy just as much, snd the two fellings don’t contradict or supersede each other, they just exist at the same time. (The cheating aspect doesn’t factor in because i don’t care). I wonder if it’s me being weird about it.
Eh, you like what you like, that’s not really “weird”.
As far as I can tell, there are basically three bits to this to have opinions about — “Joeyce”, “Jorothy”, and “how the various characters transitioned between those two states”. If your opinions are, respectively, “like, like, and don’t mind”, honestly I’d guess that’s one of the more common sets of viewpoints.
I’m pretty resigned to my own setup of “like”, “boring”, and “for fuck’s sake, you two” being relatively uncommon.
“MAYBE I’M GOOD AT LYING NOW, YOU DON’T KNOW”
When they come, do they come clean?
I mean i guess if you put some kind of plastic sheet it would be pretty clean
People asking me a lot of questions already answered by my “My non-romantic partner and I are both incredibly straight” t-shirt that’s presently crumpled up next to the bed my mutually straight partner and I share.
Good joke
And it doesn’t mean anything that my mutually straight partner has her t-shirt on inside out, it was like that when we went to bed.
Together. Entwined in each others arms but in a totally straight way.
Sarah deathglare of disapproval.
or not, lmao
“I might be better at lying now!” she lied.
badly
That last panel
“Pathetic, Little sister of Mine.”
Yeah Sarah! Take no bullshit!! Take down that Joyce! *Sarah lifts Joyce and throws her down like in a wrestling match*
Man, I love Sarah
She’s probably the perfect antidote to the pink cotton-cloud of a fresh affair.
Anakin from The Phantom Menace: “It’s working!! It’s working!!!”
Your logic is powerful, Joyce. Sarah is clearly doubting herself now. You’ve got her right where you want her. #eviljoyce
I can’t believe this whole strip is taking place in bisexual lighting. Talk about “show, don’t tell”.
It’s odd, whenever a comic featuring Joyce or Dorothy or Jorothy what-have-you comes up now, I have a really hard time finding anything to say about it? Like this whole development has taken characters I really liked and made them feel very ‘other’ to me. Let me explain before it starts sounding worse than it actually is.
The best way I can describe it is they no longer feel like they are ‘for’ me. They aren’t technically different aside from being bi, but I’ve always stuck to my guns that this story line felt very out of character for Joyce particularly. I can buy Dorothy being a disaster, she has been for YEARS now. Joyce though, she is SEASONED at learning new things about herself now and has been handling those developments with more grace and emotional intelligence each time. So why would she suddenly choose the most selfdestructive way of going about it, right now, with what seems like only a short few months of buildup? (which is NOT long by this comic’s standards.)
Why would Joyce suddenly reset her own character development for someone who would not want that for her to begin with, romantically or not?
It really seems the reason it feels that way to me at least is because there is a major shift in how the characters are written, and they aren’t really aimed at the same audience anymore. I think that’s fine? I’m not a fan of it, but I don’t have any right to be telling any author what they can or can’t do with their characters. That DOES mean however I am going to have to accept that these characters aren’t for me anymore and I am either going to have to move on from the comic, or find other things to like about it.
I am choosing to just enjoy the other things about the comic I like with a bit more enthusiasm. I might not like Jorothy, but they aren’t for me anymore, and that is fine. Maybe a bit sad after so many years reading, but it is going to be okay.
I dunno about joyce being seasoned at learning new things about herself, we’re like four (five?) months into college
she’s gone through some major changes for sure but that doesn’t make her more resilient to overrecating to new stuff necessarily
kind of a pattern with her in some ways tbh
I would argue that Joyce has dealt with this more grace and emotional intelligence that many expected. That’s why we didn’t get a major Joyce freakout about realizing that she’s bi and in love with Dorothy. It’s why she didn’t hesitate in acting on that love at the protest.
And if you really think that Joyrothy has had only months of buildup despite the many demonstrations that its roots go back to the very beginnings of the comic that people have posted, I don’t know what to tell you.
I’d actually argue they retroactively became less of a gag and more serious foreshadowing after the fact, but it doesn’t matter since it is now. I mean I’m not blind.
In hindsight, since the comic is drawn a year in advance, it at least has that much forethought put into it. Can’t imagine having something I worked on a year ago making people upset at me today. It’d be such a strange feeling to parse.
Maybe it’s been with more grace and emotional intelligence, but it’s hard to tell since we’ve gotten very little insight into what she’s actually thinking about it.
I feel kinda similarly I guess. I found some aspects of Joyce and Dorothy relatable in past story arcs, but this current story arc with the cheating has made me really dislike them and I find them hard to relate to now. I’m trying to enjoy other aspects of the comic with other characters for the time being, because right now I really can’t enjoy this story arc focused on Joyce and Dorothy until they at least talk with their boyfriends about things and we see how that goes.
This isn’t a comment on your take, or a dig at you, but I just think it’s very funny and ironic that you said “I have a really hard time finding anything to say about it” and then you said a BUNCH of stuff about it. Paragraphs of stuff.
Rolling a 1 on self awareness
She’s gonna be so good at cross-examining witnesses one day.
Sarah reminds me of The Residence, where the detective just stares at people until they stop lying and start telling the truth.
I didn’t comment on it but loved the ear nibble, hope we get more stuff that gives us a sense of Joyce’s perspective
Much as this arc has been a great Dorothy arc I do wish we felt more of Joyce’s side
Where’s her head at when it comes to relationships and morals. Cause yea it’s obvious “she desires Dorothy” but I’d like to see her inferiority shown more
All of this!
It’s my one lingering issue with it all
With Dorothy I know how she got here, the good and the bad of where he heads at makes sense. Joyce is too much of a mystery
I’m not struggling with her being bi cause everyone outside of Becky reads as potentially any sexuality to me, but her relationship with Joe was such a big deal and we’ve basically been given two strips where her feelings on the matter have been explored
So far all my analysis on her state of mind feels more like me making big guesses rather than going with what’s in front of me
And not to repeat myself from a week ago but Dorothy and Walky is not the relationship that has much dramatic tension for me, it’s just continuing to happen aimlessly
Joyce and Joe is the couple that’s had buildup, Joyce cheating on Joe matters cause of how it’s been presented, so it feels weird that we’re not being let in on her feelings
I want to feel conflicted with the cute moments, but while enjoyable aren’t in much of a conversation with a big part of Joyce’s storyline
I sort of agree with your second point about Joyce’s feelings, but also sorta not. She is all surface feelings, passionately exploring these new feeling for her best friend. But remember her first attempt at forming a break-up speech for Joe, “I like who I am when I’m with you. You make me feel like the most important person in the world.” Poor girl has some serious conflicts to reconcile
I honestly don’t know what to name Joyce’s specific feeling
Your read of it being more surface with Dorothy works but also I’m not sure if that’s what the story is intending
It’s an angle that certainly makes sense with her trajectory of rejecting her previous culture and all associated beliefs
You’re right. I have preferences, and the story arc could go almost anywheres from here.
See, you see those lines as indicating that what she feels for Joe is deeper, but for me those lines are the opposite. They’re not about Joe at all. They’re entirely about her, and she basically said: “I like that you love me.”
I agree. they are Joyce’s feelings. Maybe not ‘deeper’ but ‘deep’.
What I mean is: they’re not really about Joe.
Loving the way someone else’s affection makes us feel isn’t the same thing as loving them as a person.
Like, it’s subtle, but. It’s something I’ve learned to be very mindful of when I’m trying to compliment my friends, for example.
“You take such good care of me” is a fine compliment, but it feels better to the other person to say things like, “You’re so funny! You’re such an amazing artist! You’re so smart! I love your info dumps, I love talking to you about Star Trek! It’s so great when we get to hang out.”
The first is appreciating things they do for you; the second is appreciating their intrinsic qualities as people.
And because Joyce is a fictional character whose dialogue is all written, I doubt it’s an accident that the compliments she tried to give Joe there were strictly of the first type.
Then again Willis might just not view that way. We all have different ways to express pur affection for others and what might make it seen less deep to you might not for them.
I’ve got to say, the one thing Joyce “Warm and safe forever” Brown has never read to me as is straight. I assumed she was so deep in de Nile that she she needed to worry about crocodiles.
Ear nibble? Wait. What?
Where did I miss that?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-16/01-not-so-smooth-criminals/teensy/
Sarah is working on her, “mom stare”; Joyce doesn’t stand a chance.
oh hey they’re matching clothes
quick, joyce, yell “twinsies” and try to run out the door but mess it up somehow
Holy horsenuts … everybody is WAY overanalyzing this.
They’re 18, maybe 19, and away from home. They’re curious and acting on impulsive lust.
Now back to the strip.
what can I say?
it’s as though over-analysis is often an incidental form of recreation for some of us, myself included XD
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Your mom is a Wendy’s
I’m going to go have Wendy’s for a nickle.
Your mom IS Wendy. Tell her to make less shitty burgers.
In my town, Wendy’s is known for having the second-lowest standard of cleanliness out of all the fast food places, after Burger King. Taco Bell is kinda sticky in the lobby, but the kitchen seems honestly like the cleanest of the bunch. Hardee’s and Sonic are both in a state of “cluttered but not gross”, while Dairy Queen and McDonald’s need shut down permanently.
Which is all to say, Wendy’s sucks because they don’t fucking clean anything.
Wendy’s also sucks because they used to offer pretty good random limited-time chicken sandwiches, and then they decided that it was going to be only Ghost Pepper Ranch forever, and if there are two things I don’t want with my fast food lunch, it’s “ranch dressing” and “too spicy”.
Meanwhile, I’m over here with my popcorn and my overactive imagination, absolutely loving this story arc for the drama and the imagined enjoyment of the sexy times.
You just KNOW they got down and dirty after Joyce dropped that whisper in her ear. I feel bad for Joe, but I also wanna see how this plays out.
so like
becky is gonna notice dorothy’s not in their room
walky’s also gonna notice maybe? since she was upset before he might be checking in
joe is enthusiastic enough to check in and walk joyce to class early also
potential explosion soon?
I find Joyces incredible devotion to the idea that Maybe. This Time. She will be better at lying. Unlike me, a normal autistic person who just devoted a lot of time in high school to drama classes and improv and unlocked the terrible skill of ‘you can literally just say whatever in the same tone as anything else’.
…However I also was not raised christian, so recognize this probably helped.
I tipped my head slightly further back and lifted my eyebrows, just like that, reading what Joyce said.