Can Joyce actually do it? She’s such a softie, could she actually break someone’s heart? I love her with Dorothy, but Joe really didn’t deserve to be traded in for the new hotness.
I’m really hoping for an “I’m in love with Dorothy so I have to break up with you but I really don’t want to you’re so wonderful” and Joe going “We… Really don’t have to.”
I would have enjoyed at least a little more time with the Joe/Joyce ship. I thought it was adorable… but ultimately, this is Willis’ story to tell, not mine.
Oooo, radical viewpoint. Willis’ story, not a democratic noisy fandom shouting opposing things at the top of its voice.
You know, I think you may have something there… let the storyteller tell the story. If you hate it (aal or part) stop reading (all or part). I like it, it smacks of personal agency, responsibility for ones own enjoyment of fiction…. yeah, let’s have a paradigm shift!
Besides, we can still discuss stuff we do like.
Regardless, not all speculation on how things could be different is “I hate this and the comic should be changed to fit my whims!”. Actually, from what I’ve seen, very little of it is, whether the commenter likes the current proceedings or not… though I suppose there might have been exceptions in comments that got nuked before I read them.
We need to dig deeper… all of us are sock puppet accounts. This entire comments section is in fact a fiendishly intricate work of solipsistic performance art.
If what someone deserves is a sexy person, they don’t deserve it. That’s nothing against the someone, unless they are insisting they deserve a sexy person.
Joe deserves to have his friend not treat his heart so cavalierly. Sometimes that’s what happens when someone’s emotionally vulnerable (otherwise it wouldn’t be vulnerability), but they can deserve better than what happens to them.
I’ve never thought there’s any chance of Joyce breaking up with Joe. Joyce is incredibly self centered. She wants Joe and she wants Dorothy. She will not willingly give up either of them.
The odds of Joe in any way minding if Joyce has a girlfriend seem slim to none, especially since he went out of his way to be a jerk to Dorothy just to push her into this. So really the only person who’s likely to get hurt here is Dorothy. And maybe Walky.
Joe’s main function seems to the be stereotypical “cool awesome guy”, who’s only flaw is being a jerk to women, and his main character growth is for women to realize how wrong they all are for being annoyed at his being a jerk to them. I’m sure it won’t happen, but him managing to lose the woman he really wanted to another girl who he spent a lot of years treating like crap and who he directly pushed into this situation would be just wonderful ironic justice.
That last paragraph contains an interesting take, considering his “main character growth” appears to have actually been him realising he’s been a jerk to women and that his “no emotional connection” shtick isn’t reliable, trying to become a better person, and struggling with self-doubt over how much he’s really improved.
You lost me at paragraph 2. Joe won’t mind (ok on board with this, although it’s definitely not a certainty and it might take some time for him to come to terms with it) because he … was intentionally a jerk to Dorothy (when?) just to push her into … kissing Joyce??? what
I don’t know… maybe she’ll try to do that sitcom thing where someone tries to date two people in one evening, repeatedly making excuses to each one in order to slip away to the other*. Except with sex, somehow.
* Those trope sites call it Two-Timer Date, but I won’t link it because you might have stuff to do today.
Quite genuinely, I think there’s a possibility that Joe has already decided they’re IN a polyamorous relationship, and saw it as such way back when Joyce went on the drinking date with Dorothy.
That might be what he was getting at when he went to talk to Dorothy, to get her to see what was happening. Dorothy, of course, was so high strung that she had a full blown panic about it.
That’s not to say that he was super conscious of it, but he absolutely could tell Dorothy was in love with Joyce and he encouraged her to consider those feelings.
Seconded. Poly relationships do not obey the transitive property. I have a girlfriend and she has a wife, I am not in a relationship with my girlfriend’s wife.
You’re metamours, which is not really more of a relationship than the one they currently have as people who hang out with and to some level structure their lives around Joyce.
Yeah the dynamic of metamours really varies a lot. I think of it as being equivalent to “really good friends of people I’m really good friends with.” Sometimes those people are also your friends, sometimes they aren’t.
Ah, we are using the “all relationships are romantic” definition of relationship then, not the “you’re related to your relatives” one, and not the “the type of relationship you’re in is determined by how you interact with them, like friendship, or barman, or acquaintance” definition.
Not necessarily, but the specific phrase “in a relationship with” generally is coded as romantic… I have dear friends of 30+ years, we absolutely HAVE a relationship but i wouldn’t say we’re IN a relationship.
Obviously, yes. If we were using the other definition of relationship, then Joe wouldn’t have anything extra to lord over Dorothy because they clearly already have a relationship. Seeing as how they already interact with each other.
Oh Dorothy would HATE being in a relationship with Joe. Even if she’s not directly with Joe, they’re the two arms of a V style trio. Although with how Joe has been of late, he’d make a fantastic auspisce to her (or however the was spelt). They wouldn’t be a Mandy Sierra and Grace true triad though.
It would be ironic af if they DID become a true triad though lmao, I cannot even imagine.
My partner once described Dorothy’s role in a hypothetical Joe/Dorothy/Joyce coupling as “Dorothy trying to get a good grade in metamour in week 1, trying to kill Joe with her mind in week 2” and I really do think thats what was pushed me into receiving Dojojo more warmly. It’s just a very funny dynamic to think about!
At some point Dorothy makes organizing Joe’s life part of her project, because Dorothy Knows Best, and he shrugs it off. Oh, that’s why she’s trying to kill him with her mind.
Honestly, every time I think about how much of a disaster DoJoJo would likely be, I want it more. With the caveat that I don’t want it to be a harmful or unhappy relationship, simply… difficult. I don’t want Dorothy and Joe to be enemies, I want them to try to get along and be bad at it due to personality conflicts and their shared history, but keep trying because they both love Joyce, Joyce loves them both, and none of them understand that the sort of poly relationship they’re in doesn’t actually require the metamours to put in this much effort.
I used to want it but seeing how Joyce has talked about Joe earlier and how she’s treated this situation I’m less enthusiastic. I want to still believe but she’s demonstrated a lot of behavior that I personally, as a poly person, would see as enormous red flags.
I don’t think she means poorly or really doesn’t care, but to be in a poly relationship requires a whole lot of open communication and she’s uh, been struggling with that. I think she could grow and learn to be able to, I dunno if she can do it right this moment. We’ll see though.
A healthy poly relationship, yes. She hasn’t been a perfect monogamous partner, I’m not sure why she would need to be a perfect polyamorous partner either!
“I’m sorry! I have to leave you!”
“Why?”
“Because I love Dorothy and want to put my mouth on her!”
“Why not keep both of us and put your mouth on both of us? (one at a time) [for now])”
*Joyce mind go boom
What is the relationship of possessiveness to self-respect? I don’t think it’s a 1:1 ratio. Joe can respect his own choices without standing in the way of Joyce figuring herself out after a life in a high-demand religion that’s as close to mind control as it gets.
It isn’t about being possessive, it is about thinking you deserve to be treated well by people around you, so not putting up with people who treat you poorly.
Saying “Nooo! You Must stay with meee!” would be weird.
Saying “I am not going to pass over your decision to cheat on me” is having self-respect. Joe deserves better than Joyce.
All sorts of people have all sorts of opinions… some of them are just stupid opinions.
This isn’t about poly vs monogamy. Being poly isn’t in any way a sign of lacking self-respect.
Rather putting up with people who deceive you and betray your trust, and violate your shared expectations for the relationship is a sign that you don’t respect yourself enough.
But Joe? The guy with the serial philanderer dad? The guy who does not want to be his dad so much he’s tried 0% romantic commitment and now’s trying 100% romantic commitment? I can see Joyce’s actually cheating hitting a few of his buttons, the bad kind – you know?
When Joe was talking with Dorothy he specifically called his relationship with Joyce a “real relationship”, so it’s clear he would have viewed such things from himself as cheating.
But you’re still saying “Joe called his relationship with Joyce ‘a real relationship’, therefore it must be exclusive and monogamous”. That’s still implying that other relationship arrangements can’t be important or significant, and I do not think poly people would agree with you. Committed relationships don’t necessarily have to be monogamous.
Again: I agree that Joyce certainly thinks they’ve agreed to be exclusive and monogamous, and I agree that that’s almost certainly also where Joe’s at with it, but I think we can say that without saying “real relationships = monogamous and exclusive”? Especially when Joe didn’t actually say that, you’re just inferring it’s what he meant.
Didn’t you see the strip where they signed a monogamy contract with witnesses?
Alternate snark:
Yes, I’m sure the guy with lifelong trauma about infidelity so bad that it’s set the course of his entire pre-Joyce dating/relationship life is going to ABSOLUTELY split hairs about whether something was cheating or not.
If Joyce didn’t think they were, she wouldn’t be calling it cheating every time she talks about it.
They’ve had a couple of near-miss conversations around the topic, so TECHNICALLY SPEAKING they haven’t talked about it, but this comment section has litigated it to death. Please spare us lol.
yup. i think she’s into both of them in (at least close to) equal measures. it was Joe she was texting all of those nights so long ago when she needed support, after all.
Yeah but which lines? We talking “Superman: Red Son”, “Kingdom Come”, “Batman: Holy Terror”, or “Clark Kent, Last Son of Earth?” I gotta know where the lines are located before I can start reading between ’em. 🤔
Let’s see what movies were in the theaters when Joe was 8. unfriended, adult beginners, trainwreck, the perfect guy, sleeping with other people, our brand is crisis, the night before
Seems unlikely.
Figured out that Joyce has some feelings for Dorothy going on, sure. Figured out that she’s realized that and acted on it? That’s a lot more of a stretch.
If he HAS figured it out, then I think that’s a lot more in favor of potential polyamory because that was a very cheery greeting he gave Joyce. I assume “Hey😁” is an unusual way to treat someone who has gravely hurt you.
Joe has reached a part of his changing that he realizes that the change was for the good overall, that he has become a better person both for himself and others. Once you reach that part of Changing, it takes A LOT to turn back from it. He has been in this relationship for 2 weeks tops, this relationship crashing and burning would not realistically be enough to fuck over his want to become a better person then his father, something he wanted for YEARS but just now was able to make serious headway with.
This relationship has proven that he can be a good boyfriend, that he can be a good Man, regardless of the outcome, and others have seen this, hell he got Sarah to acknowledge him.
I think that regardless of what level of heartbreak he feels from this, he will come out of this better then before he started dating Joyce. Not because of Joyce’s efforts, but his own.
On the contrary, because it is so new, he might just go “Fuck it”.
I’m projecting, but if I were Joe in this situation, i’d be pissed and hurt. I wouldn’t DO anything of course, but if Joyce thinks that Joe will be able to be her friend after this, or want anything to do with her, shes going to be abruptly and sadly mistaken.
I also don’t like Joyce/Dorothy. Not only cause they cheated to get there but because Dorothy is clearly bouncing around like crazy and I dont know if shes capable of being a solid partner right now and thats what Joyce needs.
I see this going bad in so many ways. 1) Joyce breaks Joes heart but Dorothy chickens out and doesnt break up with Walky (Bonus points if Dorothy is not as successful at resisting Walky’s “powerful sexual kindness” 2) They do break up with each others respective partners but Dorothy continues to spiral and Joe cuts ties with Joyce to heal and Joyce realizes she made the wrong decision.
I’ve been trying to figure out who Walky might date next, because he is starting to run out of options in the established cast. Dorothy, Amber, and Lucy are all exes/soon to be exes, and I don’t think he should get back together with any of them even if they were single.
Jennifer is like a sister and seems interested in Alice. Ruth would literally kill him.
Carla and Charlie seem pretty exclusively interested in each other. Sarah’s into Tony and also seems to only like tall guys. Beyond that I also don’t think any of them would vibe with Walky.
There are not a lot of women in the cast that Walky could date after this, so unless he realizes he likes dudes, it seems like if he is going to date anyone else it is either going to be someone new… or maybe Roz?
Like, Roz isn’t a super obvious pairing, but I could actually see it happening. I could see him going through a hookup phase after Dorothy. It’s been established that he is hot and and relatively funny. He has also often had a preference for low stakes relationships, so he could absolutely spend some time after this just pursuing casual encounters.
We know that Roz is very comfortable with her sexuality and enjoys casual sex. If Walky starts just hooking up with people, it seems very possible she would hook up with him.
And when I think about it the relationship could actually work. Roz’s passionate activism could be motivating for Walky, while Walky might help Roz to remember the human.
To quote the film “Inception,” you mustn’t be afraid to dream a little bigger…
Joe, in his grief over this loss, decides to find purpose via a completely different route. He begins radicalizing into a leftist agitator the likes of which we cannot imagine. Subconsciously, his brain links protest -> losing Joyce, and so comes away with a half-cocked assumption that becoming more involved in resistance will prove he was a good boyfriend.
Of course his rational mind rejects this, but now that he has had his eyes open to the violence inherent in the system, he cannot walk away now. He becomes a resistance fighter, a man, a myth, a legend amongst the leftists not just of North America, but the entire world.
After a long and brutal campaign trying to shore up the defenses of the Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (aka. Rojava), he returns to what remains of the United States after receiving a tip from an old contact out of Las Vegas.
It turns out there has been a security breach at Area 51, and while at first Comrade Joe is like “why would i care about that” his old friend stops him, explaining that the truth of the black site has finally been revealed.
The aliens living within Area 51 are apparenlty from an advanced society from another world, one that has actually perfected an anarcho-socialist society of genuine sincere equity. When they crash landed in Roswell all those years ago, the government took them in, healed their wounds, only to learn their politics. Soon as that was realized, the McCarthyism kicked in.
The aliens have been held prisoner for decades by the forces of the government for fear that the knowledge they have, of how a world can function without fascism or even capitalism, might escape and change the face of the world forever.
Comrade Joe’s biggest, most epic mission is about to begin, a heist and rescue mission from a heavily fortified base. He has to call in a thousand favors and old friends from adventures past, telling them that most likely they’ll all die in the attempt. Even with this knowledge, his crack squad of resistance fighters sign up anyway.
If this mission succeeds, and Comrade Joe frees the socialist aliens from their prison, the aliens will share the necessary knowledge that humanity will need to finally transform us into a more peaceful, fair, and just society like theirs. This was not originally in the aliens’ agenda, but after decades imprisoned beneath the deserts of Nevada, they’re more than willing to upend and transform us into a peaceful society as a spiteful “fuck you” to the forces that kidnapped them.
Will Comrade Joe and his Joe-mmandos be able to free the aliens and thereby free humanity from its self-imposed chains? Or will the military, at the behest of Commander-in-Chief Dorothy Keener-Brown, stop him?
Not that President Keener is aware of all these dealings, she’s been kept in the dark (just like the pres in Independence Day), so the question becomes will she do the right thing when the crimes of Area 51 are revealed to her? Will she fulfill that promise she made to herself so long ago, to truly use her power for good, defying and upending the very system she swore to uphold for the betterment of humanity as a whole?
“I’m projecting, but if I were Joe in this situation, i’d be pissed and hurt. I wouldn’t DO anything of course, but if Joyce thinks that Joe will be able to be her friend after this, or want anything to do with her, shes going to be abruptly and sadly mistaken.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I think that would be a dick move after Joyce made a point of forgiving him and giving him a second chance from all his wrong doings.
Like break-up? sure, fine. Cut her out entirely because she is also a messy person capable of mistakes? Seems shitty idk.
I didn’t say anything about whether he was allowed to be hurt or not (he is) I said that cutting Joyce out for making a mistake would be shitty given what she stood by him through. I stand by that! You and can (and do) have different opinions on this.
I was trying to figure out what I disliked about this take, and the closest I can come is this:
Joe was emanating a cloud of relatively diffuse harm — it was absolutely harm, but the closest he came to deliberately targeting someone for pain was repeatingly hitting on people to piss them off.
Joyce’s actions are (at this point, anyway, post-mouth-on-weenus) directly harmful to a person she’s specifically cared about as a friend.
You raise a great point (especially in light of Joyce deliberately personalizing the harm Joe did as directed at herself), but I can imagine moral scales that weigh those two things above differently (in both directions, honestly).
Again in light of Joe not really realizing the scope of his own harmful actions until Joyce made those actions about specific harm to herself, I suspect Joe’s INITIAL reaction is going to be “What Joyce did to me is worse than what I did to the women of my dorm.”
Joe knows the women of his dorm don’t owe him friendship. Joe doesn’t owe Joyce friendship, like she didn’t hurt him. If she’s burning bridges, he is not obligated to pretend its still there.
He deliberately targeted Joyce. To “fix her with his penis”. He also deliberately targeted several women who had expressed that they were feeling harassed.
I understand that his harm doesn’t seem as directed and specific as Joyce’s do (to you) but they do to me. I would actually say I feel like Joe’s actions were much worse.
I would be REALLY disappointed in Joe if that’s his first reaction. Like grossed out by that attitude.
In all honesty, I expect his reaction to actually be a lot closer to “I listened to you and got better, and then you turn around and do this? What the hell?”
I’m pretty sure the only reason Dorothy’s been losing focus on who she wants to be is BECAUSE she wanted Joyce but couldn’t have her. I’m pretty sure a lot of things are snapping *very* clearly into focus for her now.
True. Joe has been a great boyfriend and having Joyce break up with him because she realized she was already in love with her best girlfriend is not the worst outcome. He did his best and but she’s gay. He didn’t fail her, she isn’t mad at him or disappointed in him. Most importantly, his worst fear that he would break her heart did not come true.
I mean she is definitely not gay. Like she’s not breaking up with him because she isn’t into dudes, she is very into dudes. “He did his best but she’s bi” doesn’t pack the same emotional healing, unfortunately.
I mean put it into context. He went through all the hard work of reforming, and met someone who he has genuine feelings for and they started a relationship together and he started to turn his life around for the better and made a concentrated effort to commit to being the better man. Only for in about a week’s time the girl who he devoted to stabs him in the back to get cozy with a girl who has made it quite clear that she did NOT approve of the relationship and holds him in little regard. Someone who has been on record of taking a lot of time to control the direction of your partner’s life. That’s a pretty big thing there and the shock could make him storm off and go back to his old ways just out of spite when his genuine efforts to change for the better is only rewarded with a slimy fat wad of phlegm shot right into his eye.
Dorothy understands that they’re all going through a confusing, traumatic, and emotionally fraught situation, and she isn’t judging mistakes, because it would be *incredibly hypocritical if she did.* That doesn’t mean she’s fine with it continuing to happen.
Well, admittedly I’m still an enthusiastic newbie to the whole thing… but one of my faves so far is the idea of “phonoaesthetics a term coined by Tolkien to represent how different sounds can, to one individual or another, be considered more beautiful/harmonious and others not-so-much. Obviously everyone’s aesthetics are different, and different sounds may mean different things to different folks…
But phonoaesthetics is part of Lord of the Rings. Tolkien designed the speech on the One Ring to be essentially, to him, the most unpleasant, cursed combination of sounds that sounded, to him, like the words of a cruel and vicious person. During the Council of Elrond, when Gandalf speaks out the One Ring poem in its native tongue, the book describes the Elves in the room as clasping their ears, almost crying out in pain. The idea that the animus behind words, as well as personal appreciation for sounds, could have affecting power on the ears to an almost magical degree…
For instance, some of the languages that Tolkien considered most beautiful were Finnish, Hebrew, Latin, and Welsh, though he definitely had a soft spot for Old English and its relatives. This is reflected in his choice of skeletons to base his languages on. Quenya (Old Elvish) has a lot in common with Finnish and a dash of Latin. Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, is based on Hebrew. Sindarin (Modern Elvish) has a lot in common with Welsh, though it is also derived from Quenya, there’s plenty of carry-over, though sometimes very subtle.
The Sindarin word balrog translates to something like “demon of might.” But it’s derived from the much older Quenya term valuraukar. As languages evolve, phonemes (the sounds present in a language) can shift over time. B often becomes V and vice versa because both of them are made with the front portion of the lips. P and F can also switch places (and in fact, the P to F shift noticed in the divide between Romance languages and Germanic languages is one of the biggest.
See here… what’s the Latin word for dad? Pater.
The English word? Father, which is derived from the older fæder.
Yet wildly, the Germanic branches and the Romance branches have a common ancestor, but went different paths as evinced by this single phoneme shift.
Okay, this isn’t so much philosophy of language as actually linguistics and etymology, but it’s all connected and all exciting to me!
repulsed, but that has nothing to do with dorothy. its just that walky is involved. ideally, there’d be a large hand covering that part of the scene, so that only dorothy is visible.
Joyce said she had sex with Dorothy. She told Joe. He didn’t seem bothered. They began sexual activity. Then she engaged in kissing with Dorothy. Then more sexual activity with Joe. Then more snuggling with Dorothy. If you are a Monogamy Paladin, that’s a lot of c-word, but presumably to both, because who is she supposedly monogamous with? Clearly she is not monogamous but may have leftover hangups that monogamy is “supposed” to happen (but then may wonder if that is true… and whether Joe did give her permission).
Might a good word for this confusion be a ‘clusterfuck’?
The one she was in a relationship with. The one she carefully pointed out that the “laundry” she did with Dorothy wasn’t cheating beacause it was before they got together. I don’t even see how anyone honestly reaches the “Joyce’s whole relationship with Joe was cheating on Dorothy” idea.
Oh no don’t do this conversation in their sexiest outfits yet. Huh, I may have a thing for plaid and stripped colored shirts. That is very weirdly specific.
Hey, it’s not exactly that. It’s … I don’t know, maybe because the shirts look nice and I guess they are collared and so, they remined me of good schools and skilled workers, and so maybe the wearers are smart, but the shirts also have lumberjack patterns so maybe their around someone who is outdoorsy and adventurous or in tune with the environment. Maybe they’re an ecologist. All the ecologists I’ve met have been kind, intelligent, big picture thinkers with a pinch of adventure in their lives – that’s attractive right?
Of course it is. I was merely teasing using playful internet vernacular. Everything you listed sounds like completely wholesome reasons to find a particular style attractive.
There’s a chance. I honestly don’t think Joyce has done enough yet for Joe to lose interest. That means the choice to end things could be her decision and she’s shown a remarkable capacity for greed lately.
I think Joyce has shown to be pretty greedy relationship wise. She’s very okay with pivoting between lovers and I think if given the opportunity to have more than one she would take it. To be clear I’m not saying being in a poly relationship is inherently greedy I think Joyce specifically is operating in a way where she’d be eager to have her cake and eat it too.
I think impulsive might be a better descriptor than greedy. A lot of her choices vis-a-vis relationships have been spur of the moment decisions to “follow her heart”, basically.
I think maybe once you can call it impulse but this is quickly forming a pattern. I don’t think Joyce propositioning Dorothy for shower sex was an impulse. We’ll see how she handles telling Joe though.
While there is a extremely small possibility that Joe would be up for it if it made Joyce happy, I highly doubt that Dorothy would be up for it in the long run. She has been very adamant about them both ending things with their partners before continuing in this relationship.
That might just be a… failure of imagination? I really don’t think the poly option has crossed her mind. And if it did, well… it seems likely she might reject it pretty quick, but maybe she might consider it.
I don’t think it would work for Dorothy either, she gets pretty possessive, and was having PTSD because Joyce went on a date with Joe. That’s why I want to see them try.
Yeah, underneath the sapphic cuteness, Joyce and Dorothy have been pretty toxic for the last 24 hours. I think they BOTH need somebody else to keep them honest if they want this to last in any way.
Honestly, this. However much I may joke about wanting messy poly stuff…
Dorothy’s a mess lately, and I doubt Joyce will push her to confront her issues. Besides, I don’t think Joyce’s feelings for Joe are limited to lust, and if Dorothy picks up on that, she might consider herself unacceptably selfish (by her own moral code) for having pushed Joyce to break up with him. Not claiming she’d be right to feel this way: like I said, she’s a mess.
Meanwhile, Joyce still loves Joe. How stable would DoJo be if she’s trying to bury unresolved feelings? Does Joyce even know how to bury her feelings in any way other than dusting off her old-style fundie repression?
On the other hand, if Joyce were to break up with Dorothy instead, Dorothy’d almost certainly end up spiraling even harder than she has been.
That’s not to say a poly relationship is the only solution… Joyce breaking up with Joe, then her relationship with Dorothy falling apart in a way that forces Dorothy to do some major introspection and come out of it healthier and, perhaps, ready for healthy love with Joyce? That could also work, and I’m sure there are other possibilities.
But maybe I’m overly pessimistic and, once the breakups are done, they’ll be able to address the other problems with their relationship. I’d be fine with that too…
Just… I’m hoping something changes, because right now, even the good aspects of DoJo feel tainted.
I think it would be more likely to go through if Dorothy could respect Joe enough to complete the conversation that he tried to initiate with her just a day or so ago. Perhaps hearing Sarah’s endorsement of Joe and finally letting go of her repression might free her up emotionally to consider making that change in attidute towards him.
As nice of a slipshine as that might make, i think it’s HIGHLY unlikely.
1) Joe probably knows how toxically volatile 3somes can be and probably dislikes the idea of a polycule, especially since hes navigating a relationship where he actually cares about the person 2) Joyce is not anywhere near mature enough or ready to manage the emotional and mental needs of two partners. Shes not even ready for one partner yet really 3) Dorothy doesnt seem like the kind of person to want to share. Additionally, Dorothy and Joe have never expressed any interest in each other even remotely AND if Danny found out that Dorothy and Joe were involved, it would just be fuckin weird.
I see a lot of comments here that seem to think that Joe and Dorothy would be in a relationship or need to be interested in each other and, while polycules can include that, it really isn’t necessary.
As Tequila Mocking bird says, Joyce can be the person that the both date, separtately, and all agree to this situation in a mature and consensual poly relationship. I think Joyce will need a crash course from Sierra and co., because in her present state she is clueless, but she is a fast and detarmined learner especially when it comes to fulfilling her passions it seems.
I’m not worried about Joyce, I’m worried about Dorothy in this scenario. Dorothy needs therapy, not a relationship, and definitely not a complicated web of relationships.
People who need therapy can have relationships, depending on what is going on with them. Dorothy could manage a relationship IF she gets the space and support she needs and takes the relationship carefully/tentatively… which she’s currently not doing any of, so yeah it’s looking bad!
That’s rather insulting to people in need of therapy and people in therapy. People don’t need to be completely fixed before they get into a relationship, a stable relationship can even be helpful. No one is owed a relationship, but the only people who get input on who should be in a relationship are the people in it.
She also, IIRC, canonically misleads her therapist specifically to avoid getting diagnosed with anything that might harm her potential political career.
Ah, yes, a “mature” agreement with lots of communication, to build a poly relationship where the hinge member (arguably the person whose communication skills are MOST important) is currently checks notes running around yelling with her hands over her ears and eyes closed in order to find the willpower to not just immediately sex Joe up instead of telling him the news that would even initiate the possibility of such a thing.
I don’t know what any of that has to do with “Joyce is nowhere near the maturity or headspace required to be the hinge of a poly triad with two other people who don’t like each other”, but you go off.
So I’m sure you didn’t mean to, but describing triads as “threesomes” and “toxically volatile” as well as saying Joe won’t be into poly because he’s “navigating a relationship where he actually cares about the person” is really shitty vibes.
It is possible to be poly. In a non-toxic triad. With people you genuinely care about.
to be clear, THIS group would definitely be toxic as hell, and probably aren’t going to be in a triad but just in a relationship where Joyce is the hinge
It occurs to me to wonder… of those of us hoping for poly, who’s hoping or expecting it not to be messy? Is there anyone?
Certainly not me. Though I do want it to have more good than bad, even if only by a narrow margin. I want it to succeed in such a complicated way that, years from now, they look back on it and wonder how they survived.
That last sentence encompasses all my desires for this ship. I also will have a good time if it doesn’t succeed, but I will enjoy it a LOT more if they drag a healthy relationship out of the mess kicking and screaming.
I’m sure SOMEONE wants a polycule that will be all sunshine and rainbows with no hurt feelings ever.
I think the more popular opinions are:
— “yes, give me that #MessyPoly” (some of the folks in this camp are just generally trash goblins, some are folks who think messy poly #rep would be nice: many of them, poly themselves, but by no means all)
— “no thank you, any #poly but this” (some of the folks in this camp just don’t want Joyce/Dorothy to happen at all for any number of reasons, some specifically don’t want Joe/Joyce/Dorothy for any number of reasons… and some are themselves poly folk who would LOVE more main character polyamory from DoA, but don’t want it Like This)
(Both camps have good folks in ’em who have every right to feel the way they do! The second camp is also unfortunately having to share their campground with some of the worst people who read this comic. I feel bad for all the sensible folks who keep having a “Worst Guy You Know Just Made a Good Point” time.)
(Also let’s be clear: if you’re just kinda grumpy, that last paragraph is not about you. It’s about the comments that get deleted for spewing misogyny and queerphobia. It’s about the “since when is Joyce gaaaaaay” whiners. If you’re just grumpy, you’re probably one of the folks I feel bad for. Being grumpy does not make you Worst Guy.)
yes, forgive me if I was over general. I mean these specific people/cartoon characters.
Polycules, triads, line families, etc are not toxic and can be extremely loving and welcoming. I am not personally mentally built for it, which I consider a personal feeling, but please dont think im disparaging the lifestyle for those who can do it.
I feel like attempted polycule that crashes and burns because Joyce is not prepared for that sort of relationship and Joe and Dorothy have not insubstantial amounts of bad blood that can’t be smoothed over because they both want to smooch the same girl would be my instinct for how to write this.
*Do* Joe and Dorothy have substantial amounts of bad blood?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel like a polycule is in the cards *at all*, but Dotty’s resentment and frustration with Joe lately has been about him having *Joyce*. And when he confronted her about it, he seemed nothing but sympathetic to her.
I think she comes out of this feeling *bad* for him, but I’m pretty sure any emnity she felt for him at this point has drained out entirely, and I don’t think he’s regarded her as anything but a friend for awhile now.
If there will be any bad blood going forward, it’ll probably be because of the cheating aspect of all this, but even with that, I feel like that’s more likely to be something he holds against *Joyce*. He knows full well that Dotty was going through an identity crisis through all this.
Lately, yes, but she spent years resenting having to put up with him while dating Danny.
Now, mind you, I think their last conversation was a turning point and that Dorothy could easily come to be Joe’s friend after it, but her negative feelings about him weren’t 100% Joyce-related.
As someone who avoid confrontation like a plague, it was my honest reaction out lot ready today’s strip. I’ve recently had a talk with my boyfriend about being poly and he’s never been happier to be with both of us. I just doubt it’s going to be as smoothly here, and i’m sad about it lol
I imagine it also doesn’t help that he’s dressed like the small town love interest guy from the hallmark movies that something something meaning of christmas
Independent of everything else… I hope one day to be described by someone as having a “powerful sexual kindness.” That sounds like the kinda dude I wanna be.
Having powerful sexual kindness got me into all sorts of scrapes when I was younger. Not that I regret the, you understand.
My father wanted me to have powerful sexual kindness. I wanted to be what he wanted me to be.
I don’t know that I’ve ever had those specific words used, but I HAVE been described as “the human incarnation of the campfire rule” which I thought was a pretty nice thing for a couple of former partners to say about me.
I assume it fell out of favor as a metaphor due to being coined by Dan Savage before his “man, that guy really is going for the misogynist gay man stereotype” phase, but it was in common use in my poly/ENM circles post-college.
Actually, given that origin, that’s probably why I’ve not heard it. I only discovered poly was a thing about a year or two ago, on account of meeting someone who is part of that community. My response to it is my usual to folks who are different than me, which is “it’s like pineapple on pizza. I’m not into it, but I’m not going to judge or hate those who do enjoy it.”
My friend is living proof that it can work for some people, and to that I say more power to ’em. 🙂
That honeslty sounds like the greatest compliment someone could ever give. I say hold up your head with pride to have been that positive a force in someone’s life.
I’m happy she’s at least gotten as far as a) telling him she needs to tell him something and b) indicating that she can’t be distracted by sexy stuff before she says it. Like it’s still gonna suck but she is going for it and has given enough information that if she stalls he can coax her to tell him (not that he should have to, but if it’s what it takes it’s what it takes)
You are almost certainly right about that. We sit now in the eye of the storm… let us brace for what is to come (or grab popcorn, whatever your druthers.)
Okay… hands down, that might be the most delightfully chaos goblin prediction I’ve read. I salute you, anon. This would be so funny I might bust a rib laughing were it to occur.
Phipps doesn’t think Willis is going to have Joyce break up with Dorothy. He just thinks whatever Willis DOES do is going to be even better than his own suggested twist.
Wondering how Joe, with his childhood baggage about cheating partners, thanks to his dad, is going to take having been cheated on.
Anyway, it’s kinda ironic: Joe, known as the horny playboy, has been the loyal one throughout their (admittedly short!) time together. Meanwhile Joyce, known as the upright, upstanding moral compass, is the cheater.
Is it icky on Joyce’s part? Yes. Do I feel sorry for Joe? Very much so. Do I still enjoy the delicious drama of it all? Absolutely!
Affectionate is a pretty good read, but I also think that it’s not gonna be a “blame Dorothy for corruption” thing but a “Look, I pointed out to Joyce that she should do what she wants, that was an OBVIOUS hint for her to choose Dorothy if that’s what she actually wanted and let me down gently”.
That’s definitely one of those “dumbing of age, not smarting of age” things — I don’t think there’s any specific reason he SHOULD know better, especially if he assumes Joyce will fill him in on what he needs to know (as many 18-yr-olds of any type will do about their first real serious partners)
I just figured it was something he should have picked up from spending 18 years with an autistic mother. Unless she was much better at picking up hints than I and many other autistic people are I’d think he’d have 18 years of observed data on the subject. Especially considering the other knowledge on the subject he’s pulled out since finding out about Joyce.
The thing there is that Dorothy says “knowingly”, but it was not “knowingly”, Joe has just made her realise this is possible, just this minute. Yes, that is creating a crisis, but her logic is incorrect, she is not ‘c-wording’, she is unaware of her own ‘into’ness.
Ehhhh… I think to some degree people are still responsible for their own obliviousness. She still chose to send Joyce a “titty pic”.
It has to do with honesty, including self-honesty. Dorothy was rationalizing her behavior as something else because she didn’t want to be honest with herself. But if you are intentionally maintaining “ignorance” you can’t absolve yourself of your actions.
I don’t think anyone sees Joyce as a “moral compass”. I think she’s probably generally seen as someone who is slowly getting interesting/nice after starting out as uptight and very humourless, and rather unkind.
I think he holds himself to a higher standard than he does others, like many people do. He would have a very hard time forgiving himself if he cheated, but it doesn’t mean he would be all that hurt if he can see Joyce really care (and hopefully, is sorry, under the denial).
I expect Joyce to honestly tell him “I love you”, and then explain the situation. The way we as spectators can easily doubt it makes it a powerful build-up, and she wouldn’t lie in such a situation.
I feel similarly to you, except I’m not enjoying the drama as much as you I guess. I just want Joyce and Dorothy to talk with their boyfriends and break up with them already.
I think Joe wouldn’t stand for that. First I don’t expect him to be fine with having a relationship with Joyce after this (maybe I’m wrong but I hope not). Second I don’t think he would ever be a knowing party to cheating.
And it would ruin everything he loves about Joyce. If she was intentionally cheating on Dotty with him, how is that the sweet, kindhearted girl he fell in love with? It’d be some seriously toxic stuff. There’s no way.
If Joyce has to do this just to speak to the guy…
I question her sudden lesbianism…
After all, what has she done, apart from a li’l kissing?
The realities of sex might be a bit different…
I don’t get people who talk about them being lesbian in this context. I’m assuming that’s what you meant, sorry if it’s not.
Joyce is sexually attracted to guys like Joe, that’s hard to deny. She is romantically attracted to Dorothy, at the very least. And after learning she had “lesbian sex with Joe”, she doesn’t seem to have a problem with doing the same with Dorothy.
She could be heterosexual and homoromantic, or she could just be Bi in both ways.
Also just yesterday someone was saying that allies need to be better about hitting that report button. Bi erasure is really one of those things the report button needs to be used for more often.
I’m not sure what the threshold for posts vanishing until Willis looks them over is, but it feels like a post with this many replies should have hit it before I saw it this evening.
On Buffy, Willow went from being in love with two guys to being in love with a woman and identifying as a lesbian without anyone bringing up the possibility of her being bi. To be fair, they probably couldn’t have gotten away with having a non-evil bisexual main character on network TV in 2000, considering the pushback they got for having a lesbian. Joss had to threaten to walk off the show just to get the network to air one kiss between Willow and her girlfriend.
Yeah I still remember a lot of “Hey, we exist” posts back then and recently Asshole Whedon said if he made the show today Willow would gave been bi, and I call him Asshole Whedon for how he treated the actors and actresses…especially Charisma Carpenter.
“be fair, they probably couldn’t have gotten away with having a non-evil bisexual main character on network TV in 2000”
This isn’t true, but it IS complicated. “Bisexual characters must be evil” was never a mandate anywhere, and there’s a reason why TV Tropes has a Sweeps Week Lesbian Kiss entry: the characters on that list are not all lesbians, they’re usually characters who had been portrayed as straight before the kiss and would continue to have relationships with men after it.
It’s less that these characters had to be evil to kiss another woman, and more that they weren’t supposed to start identifying specifically as bi afterwards, even if they clearly were and always had been. (See: Jadzia Dax, Deep Space Nine.)
Also, the propensity for bi characters to be evil… post-Hayes Code, that wasn’t a literal mandate anywhere, just… humans being prejudiced. There’s a lot of overlap between “campy villain” and “queer-coded character”, and culturally it’s been kind of a team effort to get to this point. Ursula, for example, was lovingly modeled after a famous drag queen, Divine. But I kind of doubt anyone was specifically trying to queer-code Scar or Jafar or Gaston.
(Heck, I think Gaston was probably supposed to be anti-queer-coded: he leads a mob explicitly to fear and hate anything “different”, and he’s very macho. It’s just that he hits that machismo so hard that it becomes camp again!)
Anyway, if you listen to the commentary track for the episode where Willow chooses Tara, which I don’t recommend because it’s infuriating lol*, I think it’s pretty clear that Willow wasn’t made bi because Whedon and Marti Noxon didn’t think bisexuality was a real thing. Which wasn’t really an uncommon attitude in the 1990s, and is still how some people view it today.
(The general idea seems to be that most women who claim to be bisexual are really straight and just “doing it for attention”, and most men who claim to be bisexual are really gay and just “in denial”. Since Willow’s attraction to women was supposed to be both real and not for attention, I don’t think it ever crossed Whedon’s mind to have her self-identify as bi.)
* There are a lot of jokes. Some jokes specifically directed at Seth Green, who’s also present, about what he must have done wrong as a boyfriend to “turn” Willow gay. Lots of that fun 2000s-era “ironic” bigotry going on. I don’t think there’s a single moment in the commentary where any of them actually treat the material seriously, or like something that might have been important to anybody growing up in the era, and I just do not recommend anyone listen to it. Even if you already hate Whedon and are looking for a fix, it’s just noxious.
Bonus trivia: Whedon had always planned for either Xander or Willow to come out, and he’d always planned for it to be as gay — if you rewatch the first three seasons, you can find breadcrumbs for both of them, and it became part of Xander’s characterization, so he’s still dropping breadcrumbs late in the series. (The specific way in which Xander expresses envy of Angel by calling him very attractive continues with Riley and Spike, at least.)
Let’s not erase lesbians in our rush to protect bi women?
Identity is complicated and, above all else, personal. If Willow were a real person, that real person could still identify as a lesbian rather than a bisexual for any number of perfectly legitimate reasons.
Some women wind up feeling like they’re only technically bisexual: like their attraction to women is so much stronger, or like for any number of reasons they’re just never going to want to actually act on attraction to men. Others wind up feeling like they were never really attracted to men at all, but coercive heteronormativity had them convinced otherwise. Still other women do genuinely wind up feeling like they USED TO BE straight and now they’re gay. And finally? Sometimes you just vibe more with one term than you do with another.
Also? “Lesbian” very much used to mean “women who are attracted to women”, not “women who aren’t attracted to men”, and the movement to push out and other bisexual women was pretty recent! There’s much more shared history than there is separate history, and people for whom the separation is important are never going to stop feuding over historical figures like Sappho.
I am giving Whedon 0 credit for knowing any of the above, he wrote an authentic lesbian character by accident, but it’s still true. Willow belongs to all of us.
I loved this. And Willow becoming a lesbian despite having dated guys was actually INSANELY important to baby-me. I loved that show, and Willow was the first girl I saw kiss another girl and I swear to god it was like someone threw a torch into me and lit me all up from the inside.
I’m sorry there wasn’t bi-rep until later, I’m sorry so much of it STILL SUCKS but lesbians weren’t exactly flush with rep at the time either, and there’s no need to drag one side down just to push your side up (agreeing with Li).
But double underline the fact that lesbian doesn’t mean “isn’t attracted to men” it means “women (and others who identify with this label) who are attracted to women (either exclusively or not)”
Source: am a nonbinary lesbian who is occasionally attracted to men, and literally no one will ever stop me calling myself a lesbian because they decided to pick a narrow definition that doesn’t include me.
Willis’s most capitalist move now would be for Joyce to turn around, say ‘I have something i need to get off my chest.’ and then announce the Slipshine.
‘Les BI’ girls, Joyce ‘an’ Dorothy. There ya go. A bit of French, clearly Bi, and all the letters that make up Lesbian, in the right order, albeit interrupted.
I would say that evidence strongly suggests that Joyce does not want an exclusive relationship with either Joe or Dorothy. The way Joyce has been acting suggests she wants to have a romantic relationship with Joe and Dorothy but societal pressure and lingering remnants of the way she was raised have her trying to force herself into exclusivity she’s been taught she should want instead of talking to everyone involved and seeing if she can get what she actually wants which is dating Dorothy and Joe.
She *wants* them both, she can’t *have* them both unless they are *both* interested in an open or poly relationship, and if that were her goal, she would have already talked to Dorothy about it. In fact you can generally assume it would’ve been the *first* think she did. Dorothy would not be operating under the assumption that they are “breaking up with” their boyfriends, she would have been talking about how to approach the issue instead. She wasn’t, which means Joyce hasn’t talked to her about a poly relationship, which means if Joyce *wants* one, she’s going about it in the worst possible way.
Wait, polycule group as in “people who want the DoJoJo polycule to be canon” or “people who are in a polycule?” I kinda want to know because those fruit snacks sounds delicious right about now.
That’s fine by me! I’ve never liked my sweets with peanut butter in them. Something about mixing salty and sugary is unpleasant to my palate… but more for the rest of y’all! I shall enjoy my delicious Ally gummies and cheer my peanut-butter loving homies on.
[to the old Meow Mix jingle]
Bi bi bi bi
Bi bi bi bi
Bi bi bi bi, bi bi bi bi
The thing is she’s young, completely inexperienced, and coming out (grin) of a completely repressed background. Of course she is a mess, of course she’s going to handle it badly, she has no idea what she’s doing.
Y’know, I was pondering making a “joke” post where I claimed to unironically want everything I (as an OG “relationship paladin”) have been accused of hoping for in the last couple of months, and I couldn’t bring myself to do because all of that stuff is whack even in jest.
Okay, here we go. Joe, I am begging you to be cool about this. Also of the boyfriends I feel like Joe would be the most likely to be OK with polyamory so let’s hope that this might actually work out.
Honestly in his case he might be like “Yeah I kind of expected this to happen.”. He is very aware of Dotty’s feelings for Joyce and probably vice versa. He will NOT let Dotty live it down however, it will material for jokes for years to come.
“Where would I find Miss Righteous? Right in my girlfriend’s bed!”
I hope, for drama/honesty’s sake, that he’s… not okay with it, even if he isn’t surprised. “I joked about it, and hoped you’d be honest with yourself, but it still hurts that it happened.”
If he goes into a poly relationship just so his brain doesn’t have to accept the fact that he was cheated on? That’s the worst.
Look, I get wanting to see all the ships sail. But there is *no* indication that there’s any notion of polyamory here. Poly relationships aren’t for everyone, and Joyce and Dotty both are behaving like they intend to break up with their boyfriends. They want and *expect* exclusivity from each other. They haven’t been talking about how they’re going to pitch a quople or a polycule or whatever to their boyfriends, they’ve been talking about *breaking up with them.*
And if Walky and/or Joe pitches the open relationship at this point, it’s going to seem like bargaining, trying to hold on to a relationship that’s ending. Even if the girls agreed to it, that’s not a balanced starting place. And it would feel *especially* unfair because Joyce has *already* broken his trust *and* led him on.
This isn’t going poly. Joyce needs to let Joe move on to better things. Probably Rachel.
Out of the four people involved here Walky is the only one who has actually proposed a poly relationship in the past. He passed it off as a joke, but he’s known for hiding things he’s serious about as jokes.
Joyce absolutely does not want to break up with Joe.
Dorothy doesn’t really want to break up with Walky so much as she doesn’t want to really have been with him in the first place, but it was an easy and uncomplicated way to get her buttons pressed in a way she likes so whatever it worked out.
Also I’d be really curious how many of the people going “what there’s no indication this could go poly” are the kind of people who also say “I’m just build for monogamy” because like… how do you think people find out they’re poly in this specific culture?
Except Dotty said it *to Joyce*, and Joyce did not contradict her or open a discussion at that point, which is what someone would do if they were even entertaining this possibility. And *Joyce* is the one that referred to the blowie as “cheating” on Dorothy.
The evidence here is clearly showing that both Joyce and Dotty are thinking of this new thing between them as an exclusive relationship that necessitates ending their relationships with other people.
Teeeechnically only if everyone is assuming exclusivity from the start.
Which they are.
But it’s hypothetically possible to get a bunch of people who all, by sheer coincidence, are not cheating on anyone because they all for whatever reason aren’t assuming monogamy and also are just really terrible at communication.
Not really. Asher isn’t cheating. He’s fully moved on. He just didn’t tell Jennifer he was dumping her, because she wasn’t giving him any basic respect, so why should she expect any in return?
No, he’s not, but his conversation didn’t happen before his kiss, either, even if he ended up not being cheating on account of Jennifer didn’t give a shit about their relationship.
I mean, I’m not ok with cheating. This was pretty unambiguously not cheating. Well, except technically for that first couple of seconds before he pushed Ethan away, but blaming Asher for not reacting immediately seems unreasonable to me.
Just to add: that “not ok with cheating” bit may seem to conflict with my wishing for messy poly involving Joyce, Joe, Dorothy and whoever else they can drag in. The distinction is primarily founded in the following two facts:
1: others have already discussed the cheating extensively, so my doing so would be redundant.
2: I’m a trash goblin who craves mess.
Pedantic addition:
3: I’m aroace and have a decidedly superficial understanding of cheating that mostly amounts to “if you think you have to hide it from your partner, something’s probably badly wrong”.
To paraphrase Elan (after he figured out both illusions and sarcasm): “I mean, it’s not as if knowing that we need to lie about it to your boyfriend is a good indication that it may be the wrong idea.”
Well yeah, it’s right on the knife edge of an edge case, largely because it’s clear from panel 1 that Asher’s FIRST reaction was “lean in”, even if his second-panel reaction was “no, I am not single”.
I’ve been in relationships where that would have been considered “cheating”, on the grounds of “you didn’t push him away IMMEDIATELY and respond with a ‘what the actual fuck’ or similar”.
honestly it doesn’t even have to be any kind of official thruple/quad thing. It can just be an open relationship where you can date and/or have sex with other people. there’s lots of right ways to do it as long as everyone is on the same page. it does take a LOT of communication, though. A polyam friend of mine calls it “dating on expert mode”
Actually… as I and others have noted, if they form a polycule, it’ll probably go badly; Dorothy almost certainly isn’t remotely ready for it, and Joyce will probably completely misunderstand how poly relationships work (then get extremely upset at how badly she’s messing up). So, arguably, this might work out as unintentional punishment for the cheating.
Where I to travel 10 years back in time and tell myself Joyce, the lesbian, left wing liberal, trans ally, atheist, is going to break the heart of respectful, deconstructed, insecure, kind, Sara’s role model, freaking Joe… I’d probably answer myself “huh, so DoA is done and this is a new AU? Are there transformers in this one? Boy am I glad that my country doesn’t have a gay hating nutjob president and probably never ever will (Argentina)”
To be fair, I struggle to think where character development would’ve taken the characters otherwise lol (unless it was a negative arc, but I feel like 10 years ago it was clear we weren’t getting that on a large scale thing for at least Joyce and Joe.)
It won’t happen but Joyce would benefit greatly from accepting polyamory into her heart, I think everyone involved could handle it after some learning pains
Joyce had really, really hope that Joe’s coming from an open mindset. Because if he’s going to be hurt by what comes next, this entire thing now where she’s all focusing on how hard this is for her isn’t so great.
Then again, if that’s the case, it’s not like it’s going to get any better, so whatever, say what’s on your mind.
How long is the comic buffer, by the way?
Trying to figure out if the point of view suddenly includes the TV, if we’re going to see Danny’s Switch’s most recent metamorphosis.
Switch 2 was announced back in January, so unless Willis is more than six months ahead, it should have already changed.
They’re more than six months ahead. They were a full year ahead recently, and stated some intention to rework the story they had to feature Asma more prominently sooner (since she otherwise wouldn’t have shown up again for about a year). We haven’t heard more than that, so it’s unclear if the recent updates to buffer watch were Willis altering it on purpose or the buffer’s code not being able to handle being more than a year ahead.
Either way, this is what it currently says:
BUFFER WATCH
Comics are currently drawn and uploaded through:
November 16, 2025
Where are folks getting the idea that Dorothy is possessive from?
There are a fair few problems with Potential Polycule (none of which stop me from hoping for it), but I keep seeing this one stated like it’s textual fact, and I would love to know where that’s coming from.
Textually, it’s pretty clear that Dorothy 1) really, really wants Joyce, 2) is jealous of Joe for getting Joyce earlier on (see link above), and 3) is viscerally horrified by the thought of losing Joyce to Joe (see the trauma flashback when they leave on their date, etc).
I don’t think it’s necessarily out of line to read that in aggregate as “possessive”, although that reading itself also kinda has to allow that Dorothy probably wouldn’t use that word.
Oh, I remember that, but I put it in the same category as below.
Dorothy was already upset when she went to confront Jennifer there, because Jennifer had called her a bad friend, poking the same sore spot as Roz earlier; people who either don’t know Joyce at all because they’re not her friends, or who had recently removed themselves from Joyce’s friend-group, judging Dorothy for not handling a given situation as well as they assume they would have.
(Roz’s poking of this particular bear goes directly back to when Joyce melted down in Gender Studies 101 about the oppression LGBTQIA+ people face, and Roz was rubbing her nose in it, and Dorothy tried to intervene: Roz snapped at her that it was her fault Joyce hadn’t had this revelation earlier.)
And I think that, when Dorothy felt like she had NO claim on Joyce at all, that was upsetting in a way that it wouldn’t necessarily be if she felt like Joyce was as much hers as anyone’s.
I agree with most of that, but I also think the key point is “losing Joyce”. She wouldn’t be losing Joyce in this situation.
(I’m also personally curious to see Dorothy interact with Joe in the future. I want to know how much of her recent antipathy was just jealousy she was struggling to process. She’s SAID she resented being in his orbit while she was dating Danny, but she seemed more exasperated when they interacted post-breakup than like someone who had really built up a lot of resentment.
It’s also been 15 years, so it’s possible that Willis decided to later recontextualize that exasperation into more serious distaste that Dorothy was just masking…
…but it’s also possible that the intensity of her dislike for Joe more recently was absolutely her brain being kind of on fire from feeling jealousy and struggling to rationalize it into something else, like sincere concern for Joyce’s safety…
…which then combined very BADLY with all of her latent legitimate concern for Joyce’s safety and metastasized into the PTSD flash we saw!)
I think it is likely more accurate that she is viscerally terrified by the thought of losing Joyce period, which is an unstated reason for not leaving for Yale that I’m not sure she entirely realized was so major a factor.
I just feel like… we haven’t yet seen “Dorothy who’s now sure of what she herself is feeling AND confident that Joyce returns her feelings” be put in a position to be jealous or possessive. Except for the non-reaction she had when Joyce told her she gave Joe oral, but that could be a one-off.
Also, I was trying to think of what music should be playing over this scene and now I have to make a shittyflute cover of “The Hardest Thing” by 98 Degrees, to match what’s going on in Joyce’s brain.
tbf i DON’T think joe will be all “let’s be poly!” I think he was truly changing his perspectives and priorities. joe my sweet boy !! (i will drink his tear tho)
I agree, he values women more as people and is interested in relationships!
That doesn’t have anything to do with not being okay with a polycule, though, and his reasons for potentially not being okay with it are also unrelated.
Moreso monogamy is the societal standard. That doesn’t mean it’s any more natural than any other relationship formation. Plenty of folks would be poly if were more socially acceptable and they knew what it was.
If it weren’t for her ingrained assumption of monogamy, I’m pretty sure Joyce would be naturally inclined toward poly, given her clearly non-monogamous affections.
That’s unclear. Some more people almost certainly would be.
But there’s deep evolutionary roots to this stuff. It’s not just our societal standard. Examples of societies without such standards are rare at best. It’s very widespread and goes back as far as we can trace in similar form at least. Pair bonding often with elite males supporting a small number of females. It’s what we see and it’s also the pattern most common among primates with roughly our degree of sexual dimorphism.
Maybe! Hard to be sure when the societal stigma is so strong that we can’t trust self-reported data on the subject. But not really relevant to whether or not Joe “truly changing his perspective and priorities” === “being unwilling to try polyamory”.
I’m picturing it more like:
Joyce reluctantly breaks up with Joe.
Joe is clearly upset, but accepts her decision.
Joyce immediately apologises upon seeing how unhappy he is and says she wishes there were a way she could be with both Joe and Dorothy.
Sierra pokes her head in and gives Joyce a quick summary of how poly relationships work (which Joyce retains only a superficial understanding of, mostly that she can have both Dorothy and Joe at once).
At this point, all i want is Joyce cloning herself. Joe deserves a Joyce and Dorothy deserves a Joyce, but i don’t think Joyce OR Dorothy OR Joe is ready for polyamory.
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Can Joyce actually do it? She’s such a softie, could she actually break someone’s heart? I love her with Dorothy, but Joe really didn’t deserve to be traded in for the new hotness.
I think she’ll be able to get enough out that there’s no going back.
What the new status quo looks like, who knows.
I’m really hoping for an “I’m in love with Dorothy so I have to break up with you but I really don’t want to you’re so wonderful” and Joe going “We… Really don’t have to.”
yesss ot3 let’s go
And then Joe gives Joyce some Archie comics so she’ll obsess over it being a thing she can do, then they’ll al take a trip to Montreal.
I understood that reference
To be FAIR, Dotty is the old hotness.
Joe was, and IS, the new hotness.
They are hotnesses of approximately equal age.
Age-wise yes, time frame in boning Joyce? Debatable!
Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey Joyce-boning chronology.
The end of virginity is but a rinse cycle away.
I would have enjoyed at least a little more time with the Joe/Joyce ship. I thought it was adorable… but ultimately, this is Willis’ story to tell, not mine.
Oooo, radical viewpoint. Willis’ story, not a democratic noisy fandom shouting opposing things at the top of its voice.
You know, I think you may have something there… let the storyteller tell the story. If you hate it (aal or part) stop reading (all or part). I like it, it smacks of personal agency, responsibility for ones own enjoyment of fiction…. yeah, let’s have a paradigm shift!
Sounds fake.
I second the honorable Thing 2’s proposal for a paradigm shift.
Errr, I dunno. Put the story power into the hands of the person who thinks of it, writes it, publishes it? That’s…crazy talk, y’know?
*gasp!* Someone’s making sense in an internet comment section! That has to be either completely illegal or one of the signs the world is ending!
*looks around at the world* Could honestly go either way.
If you hate it, there’s always Ao3 (you probably gotta write that alternate storyline yourself tho; so like, good luck wit that I guess…)
the “if you have an impression that’s not mine, you should leave the comments” take is too common.
Yeah. I’m watching everybody fall all over themselves to act like this is some brilliant take, when it’s nothing more than “Praise it or leave”.
Like, seriously?
I don’t think that’s what Thing 2 was saying at all, and it’s nowhere in the same galaxy as what I was attempting to say.
“If you don’t like this single aspect of a story you otherwise love, you should shut up, **** off, and stop reading”
Yeah thanks but no, turns out YOU don’t get to decide what other people do either.
Besides, we can still discuss stuff we do like.
Regardless, not all speculation on how things could be different is “I hate this and the comic should be changed to fit my whims!”. Actually, from what I’ve seen, very little of it is, whether the commenter likes the current proceedings or not… though I suppose there might have been exceptions in comments that got nuked before I read them.
hahaha, is right up there with the theory that Taffy is actually Willis’ sock puppet account /j
We need to dig deeper… all of us are sock puppet accounts. This entire comments section is in fact a fiendishly intricate work of solipsistic performance art.
If what someone deserves is a sexy person, they don’t deserve it. That’s nothing against the someone, unless they are insisting they deserve a sexy person.
Joe deserves to have his friend not treat his heart so cavalierly. Sometimes that’s what happens when someone’s emotionally vulnerable (otherwise it wouldn’t be vulnerability), but they can deserve better than what happens to them.
I think she’ll be able to get out, “Ibreakupwithyou,” but if he asks why, she’ll jump out the window.
I’ve never thought there’s any chance of Joyce breaking up with Joe. Joyce is incredibly self centered. She wants Joe and she wants Dorothy. She will not willingly give up either of them.
The odds of Joe in any way minding if Joyce has a girlfriend seem slim to none, especially since he went out of his way to be a jerk to Dorothy just to push her into this. So really the only person who’s likely to get hurt here is Dorothy. And maybe Walky.
Joe’s main function seems to the be stereotypical “cool awesome guy”, who’s only flaw is being a jerk to women, and his main character growth is for women to realize how wrong they all are for being annoyed at his being a jerk to them. I’m sure it won’t happen, but him managing to lose the woman he really wanted to another girl who he spent a lot of years treating like crap and who he directly pushed into this situation would be just wonderful ironic justice.
I’m not entirely sure we’re reading the same comic.
That last paragraph contains an interesting take, considering his “main character growth” appears to have actually been him realising he’s been a jerk to women and that his “no emotional connection” shtick isn’t reliable, trying to become a better person, and struggling with self-doubt over how much he’s really improved.
You lost me at paragraph 2. Joe won’t mind (ok on board with this, although it’s definitely not a certainty and it might take some time for him to come to terms with it) because he … was intentionally a jerk to Dorothy (when?) just to push her into … kissing Joyce??? what
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
Im guessing 3 more pages before a it suggests she tells him before it changes focus to someone else
But does she put her mouth on his wenis again before or after?
In other words… correction: 3 pages and a Slipshine.
Not gonna lie, I’m pretty sure the collective emotional disturbance put out by the next slipeshine being Joyce and Joe would put Alderaan to shame.
YES… HA HA HA… YES!
next slipshine joyce rides a weenus
I don’t know… maybe she’ll try to do that sitcom thing where someone tries to date two people in one evening, repeatedly making excuses to each one in order to slip away to the other*. Except with sex, somehow.
* Those trope sites call it Two-Timer Date, but I won’t link it because you might have stuff to do today.
Is she riding it to the mall? The park? The next town over?
He puts his mouth on her wagina. Her mind goes boom. Two days pass before she’s aware again.
The proper term is Vahoga.
I thought that was a guy from Dragonball
Vahoga, no!
Vahoga YES!!
It’s canonically “capoodle” as per Becky.
Yes, yes…become conflicted. Let’s peel this back layer by layer.
Likeab onion that is similar to an ogre, put pelling an ogre would be considerably more gruesome. I assume.
Now I’m just imagining like, Farquaad (or maybe Prince Charming) in some ludicrously chonky armor, in his worst Batman impression.
“Tell me, ogre… do you bleed?”
Peel back layer after stinky layer until you’re left with nothing but tears?
well, you also have a peeled onion. So probably some good ingredients
…FUTURE president, Joyce.
Dorothy’s already the president of Joyce’s heart. Then again, so is Joe. It’s a duumvirate. Or maybe dumbvirate.
Yes! YES! NO BACKING OUT! SHE’S ALREADY SAID SHE HAS SOMETHING TO SAY TO HIM!!!!!! CAN SHE JUST GET THE WORDS OUT?!?!?!?! CAN SHE!?!?!?!?!!!???!!?
I don’t know stop yelling you scarring the hoes. (Me i am the hoes)
GET SCARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joyce is scarring the Joe’s.
No, it’s Amazi-girl who got scarred, try to keep up with the side stories.
*sitting in a corner still quietly rooting for a polycule*
Quite genuinely, I think there’s a possibility that Joe has already decided they’re IN a polyamorous relationship, and saw it as such way back when Joyce went on the drinking date with Dorothy.
That might be what he was getting at when he went to talk to Dorothy, to get her to see what was happening. Dorothy, of course, was so high strung that she had a full blown panic about it.
That’s not to say that he was super conscious of it, but he absolutely could tell Dorothy was in love with Joyce and he encouraged her to consider those feelings.
I know the odds are not in our favor… but I hope you’re right. That would be so sweet.
Jeff, that’s what I want to see. But I’m not at all sure that’s what I saw.
But something *was* odd about Joe’s conversation with Dorothy. Maybe???
We’re approaching an inflection point and much depends on Joe’s instant reaction.
Plus he gets to lord it over Dorothy that she’s technically in a relationship with him. Drive her right up the wall.
nooooo that’s not how poly workkkks
Seconded. Poly relationships do not obey the transitive property. I have a girlfriend and she has a wife, I am not in a relationship with my girlfriend’s wife.
What your girlfriends wife does affects you, and vice versa. You are in a secondary relationship.
You’re metamours, which is not really more of a relationship than the one they currently have as people who hang out with and to some level structure their lives around Joyce.
But it would be formalized.
Yeah the dynamic of metamours really varies a lot. I think of it as being equivalent to “really good friends of people I’m really good friends with.” Sometimes those people are also your friends, sometimes they aren’t.
Ah, we are using the “all relationships are romantic” definition of relationship then, not the “you’re related to your relatives” one, and not the “the type of relationship you’re in is determined by how you interact with them, like friendship, or barman, or acquaintance” definition.
Not necessarily, but the specific phrase “in a relationship with” generally is coded as romantic… I have dear friends of 30+ years, we absolutely HAVE a relationship but i wouldn’t say we’re IN a relationship.
Obviously, yes. If we were using the other definition of relationship, then Joe wouldn’t have anything extra to lord over Dorothy because they clearly already have a relationship. Seeing as how they already interact with each other.
I did say technically.
They’re not together, but they’re part of the same polycule.
Oh Dorothy would HATE being in a relationship with Joe. Even if she’s not directly with Joe, they’re the two arms of a V style trio. Although with how Joe has been of late, he’d make a fantastic auspisce to her (or however the was spelt). They wouldn’t be a Mandy Sierra and Grace true triad though.
It would be ironic af if they DID become a true triad though lmao, I cannot even imagine.
Dorothy and Joe as metamours is something I want SO BAD.
My partner once described Dorothy’s role in a hypothetical Joe/Dorothy/Joyce coupling as “Dorothy trying to get a good grade in metamour in week 1, trying to kill Joe with her mind in week 2” and I really do think thats what was pushed me into receiving Dojojo more warmly. It’s just a very funny dynamic to think about!
“Dojojo” is a pretty great name, though
At some point Dorothy makes organizing Joe’s life part of her project, because Dorothy Knows Best, and he shrugs it off. Oh, that’s why she’s trying to kill him with her mind.
Honestly, every time I think about how much of a disaster DoJoJo would likely be, I want it more. With the caveat that I don’t want it to be a harmful or unhappy relationship, simply… difficult. I don’t want Dorothy and Joe to be enemies, I want them to try to get along and be bad at it due to personality conflicts and their shared history, but keep trying because they both love Joyce, Joyce loves them both, and none of them understand that the sort of poly relationship they’re in doesn’t actually require the metamours to put in this much effort.
this would be so funny
Yeah I think things at least could have been headed this way.
someone please post a link, i want to reread all of that
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/howyoudoing/
Wow, this makes me hate the cheating plotline and the Joyce-Dorothy ship more. Dotty getting rewarded for truly shitty behaviour.
It’s almost like someone loving and being attracted to you isn’t a reward!
Thing is, it’a a story. I’m pretty sure you also understood what I meant, despite loose language.
That happens a LOT here.
I know it’s a story. But in stories for adults, sometimes the results of character actions are more nuanced than “punishment” or “reward”.
This would be so incredibly funny. And would track with Dorothy and Joyce somehow being the last people to realize that they have A Thing.
I used to want it but seeing how Joyce has talked about Joe earlier and how she’s treated this situation I’m less enthusiastic. I want to still believe but she’s demonstrated a lot of behavior that I personally, as a poly person, would see as enormous red flags.
I don’t think she means poorly or really doesn’t care, but to be in a poly relationship requires a whole lot of open communication and she’s uh, been struggling with that. I think she could grow and learn to be able to, I dunno if she can do it right this moment. We’ll see though.
So you agree that it would be a dumb thing to do, and therefor possible.
Of Note: To be in a healthy polyamorous relationship requires a lot of open communication etc.
They can absolutely start as an unhealthy mess and either figure it out or break up later. GIMME MESSY POLYYYYY.
We’ve had a lot of messy drama in this webcomic, but not this type. We’re due!
(To clarify in case anyone misinterprets: yes, it’s David Willis’s webcomic and the story goes as he chooses. I’m just a commenter being unoriginal.)
I think an open relationship might be more likely than poly, IF Joyce and Dorothy learn how to use their words!
Yeah. Open. Not poly (I mean maybe poly, but probably not). Open would be a fuck site easier to manage.
And that’s exactly the problem. Open would be easier to manage and far more sensible. Where’s the fun in that?
I think a key part of a poly relationship is to communicate BEFORE you do something
A healthy poly relationship, yes. She hasn’t been a perfect monogamous partner, I’m not sure why she would need to be a perfect polyamorous partner either!
well, in any relationship that would be best in most situations
“I’m sorry! I have to leave you!”
“Why?”
“Because I love Dorothy and want to put my mouth on her!”
“Why not keep both of us and put your mouth on both of us? (one at a time) [for now])”
*Joyce mind go boom
A dialogue in which Joe has zero self-respect.
Which he very notably does have supremely low self image and self respect of late. It might not be healthy but it’s so easy to imagine, no?
What is the relationship of possessiveness to self-respect? I don’t think it’s a 1:1 ratio. Joe can respect his own choices without standing in the way of Joyce figuring herself out after a life in a high-demand religion that’s as close to mind control as it gets.
It isn’t about being possessive, it is about thinking you deserve to be treated well by people around you, so not putting up with people who treat you poorly.
Saying “Nooo! You Must stay with meee!” would be weird.
Saying “I am not going to pass over your decision to cheat on me” is having self-respect. Joe deserves better than Joyce.
Quite a few poly people might disagree with your subjective analysis.
All sorts of people have all sorts of opinions… some of them are just stupid opinions.
This isn’t about poly vs monogamy. Being poly isn’t in any way a sign of lacking self-respect.
Rather putting up with people who deceive you and betray your trust, and violate your shared expectations for the relationship is a sign that you don’t respect yourself enough.
“I’ve got a gay thing going with Dorothy!”
“Yeah.”
“And that has implications for our relationship!”
“Why start now?”
My thoughts exactly. He already knows they are gay for each other. But clearly Joyce is also totally into him as well.
Joyce is clearly into it, yes.
But Joe? The guy with the serial philanderer dad? The guy who does not want to be his dad so much he’s tried 0% romantic commitment and now’s trying 100% romantic commitment? I can see Joyce’s actually cheating hitting a few of his buttons, the bad kind – you know?
Whether he will be hurt depends entirely on whether he considers it cheating. Did either of them say they’re exclusive or monogamous?
Oh we are not doing this again.
We will never not be doing this.
until seen in the digital ink of the strip just to shut us up
When Joe was talking with Dorothy he specifically called his relationship with Joyce a “real relationship”, so it’s clear he would have viewed such things from himself as cheating.
Seems likely the cloth would cut both ways.
I think it’s possible to say “yes the characters clearly consider it to be cheating” without implying that only monogamous relationships are “real”.
I was referring to Joe’s previous flings as not being ‘real’, nothing to do with monogamy. Specifically in reference to this comic.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/assureyou/
But you’re still saying “Joe called his relationship with Joyce ‘a real relationship’, therefore it must be exclusive and monogamous”. That’s still implying that other relationship arrangements can’t be important or significant, and I do not think poly people would agree with you. Committed relationships don’t necessarily have to be monogamous.
Again: I agree that Joyce certainly thinks they’ve agreed to be exclusive and monogamous, and I agree that that’s almost certainly also where Joe’s at with it, but I think we can say that without saying “real relationships = monogamous and exclusive”? Especially when Joe didn’t actually say that, you’re just inferring it’s what he meant.
Snark:
Didn’t you see the strip where they signed a monogamy contract with witnesses?
Alternate snark:
Yes, I’m sure the guy with lifelong trauma about infidelity so bad that it’s set the course of his entire pre-Joyce dating/relationship life is going to ABSOLUTELY split hairs about whether something was cheating or not.
If Joyce didn’t think they were, she wouldn’t be calling it cheating every time she talks about it.
They’ve had a couple of near-miss conversations around the topic, so TECHNICALLY SPEAKING they haven’t talked about it, but this comment section has litigated it to death. Please spare us lol.
yes. when Joyce said emphatically that she’d been faithful.
yup. i think she’s into both of them in (at least close to) equal measures. it was Joe she was texting all of those nights so long ago when she needed support, after all.
I hope she actually tells him this time. He deserves to know what Joyce has been doing with Dorothy. And hopefully this doesn’t hurt Joe too much.
Joe’s not wearing his typical palette. He’s wearing the Batman poster palette.
Well, he is about to have a dark night.
He he
#Angryupvote
He just finishe watching Zoro with his dad and step mom, and now they’re in Crime alley.
man i cant believe dorothy literally killed joe’s parents
Which edition of Elseworlds was that again?
You have to read between the lines.
Sometime the lines are extra skinny.
Yeah but which lines? We talking “Superman: Red Son”, “Kingdom Come”, “Batman: Holy Terror”, or “Clark Kent, Last Son of Earth?” I gotta know where the lines are located before I can start reading between ’em. 🤔
Let’s see what movies were in the theaters when Joe was 8. unfriended, adult beginners, trainwreck, the perfect guy, sleeping with other people, our brand is crisis, the night before
This is Danny, nailing his rolls for Disguise Self.
Well they’re off to a great start! XD
Don’t trust intoxicating man stink.
Powerful Sexual Kindness. The new fragrance from DOA’r
I’m in!
Great idea! Here, have some private equity investment!
Joyce, I really think you want both Joe and Dorothy
The question is will she be able to eat her cake and have it to?
But who will be the cake? iykyk
Unibomber syntax spotted
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point
Careful with your wording – that’s how they caught the Unabomber!
To be fair, “they” didn’t catch him, his brother did!
So the moral is, if you’re going to be bombing people, you should start with your brother.
I read that as “Umabomber” and was like “Who is bombing horse girls?”
What did Thurman ever do to them? :O
Can she have her beefcake and eat her Dorothy/
Yes!
Don’t rule out the possibility that Joe’s already figured it out.
Juss sayin
I think I lot of people go further than just not ruling it out! Joe and Walky both.
Seems unlikely.
Figured out that Joyce has some feelings for Dorothy going on, sure. Figured out that she’s realized that and acted on it? That’s a lot more of a stretch.
If he HAS figured it out, then I think that’s a lot more in favor of potential polyamory because that was a very cheery greeting he gave Joyce. I assume “Hey😁” is an unusual way to treat someone who has gravely hurt you.
I’m just really hoping Joe doesn’t come out of this worse. He’s had a lot of change & deserves to keep that going.
Joe has reached a part of his changing that he realizes that the change was for the good overall, that he has become a better person both for himself and others. Once you reach that part of Changing, it takes A LOT to turn back from it. He has been in this relationship for 2 weeks tops, this relationship crashing and burning would not realistically be enough to fuck over his want to become a better person then his father, something he wanted for YEARS but just now was able to make serious headway with.
This relationship has proven that he can be a good boyfriend, that he can be a good Man, regardless of the outcome, and others have seen this, hell he got Sarah to acknowledge him.
I think that regardless of what level of heartbreak he feels from this, he will come out of this better then before he started dating Joyce. Not because of Joyce’s efforts, but his own.
On the contrary, because it is so new, he might just go “Fuck it”.
I’m projecting, but if I were Joe in this situation, i’d be pissed and hurt. I wouldn’t DO anything of course, but if Joyce thinks that Joe will be able to be her friend after this, or want anything to do with her, shes going to be abruptly and sadly mistaken.
I also don’t like Joyce/Dorothy. Not only cause they cheated to get there but because Dorothy is clearly bouncing around like crazy and I dont know if shes capable of being a solid partner right now and thats what Joyce needs.
I see this going bad in so many ways. 1) Joyce breaks Joes heart but Dorothy chickens out and doesnt break up with Walky (Bonus points if Dorothy is not as successful at resisting Walky’s “powerful sexual kindness” 2) They do break up with each others respective partners but Dorothy continues to spiral and Joe cuts ties with Joyce to heal and Joyce realizes she made the wrong decision.
or im just a doomer.
If your going to be a doomer, you got to do it right.
Joe snaps, goes postal and kills Dorothy. Her death brings Joyce and Walky, the two people who loved her, together.
I’ve been trying to figure out who Walky might date next, because he is starting to run out of options in the established cast. Dorothy, Amber, and Lucy are all exes/soon to be exes, and I don’t think he should get back together with any of them even if they were single.
Jennifer is like a sister and seems interested in Alice. Ruth would literally kill him.
Carla and Charlie seem pretty exclusively interested in each other. Sarah’s into Tony and also seems to only like tall guys. Beyond that I also don’t think any of them would vibe with Walky.
There are not a lot of women in the cast that Walky could date after this, so unless he realizes he likes dudes, it seems like if he is going to date anyone else it is either going to be someone new… or maybe Roz?
Like, Roz isn’t a super obvious pairing, but I could actually see it happening. I could see him going through a hookup phase after Dorothy. It’s been established that he is hot and and relatively funny. He has also often had a preference for low stakes relationships, so he could absolutely spend some time after this just pursuing casual encounters.
We know that Roz is very comfortable with her sexuality and enjoys casual sex. If Walky starts just hooking up with people, it seems very possible she would hook up with him.
And when I think about it the relationship could actually work. Roz’s passionate activism could be motivating for Walky, while Walky might help Roz to remember the human.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/thumpasprunging/
and the next strip.
To quote the film “Inception,” you mustn’t be afraid to dream a little bigger…
Joe, in his grief over this loss, decides to find purpose via a completely different route. He begins radicalizing into a leftist agitator the likes of which we cannot imagine. Subconsciously, his brain links protest -> losing Joyce, and so comes away with a half-cocked assumption that becoming more involved in resistance will prove he was a good boyfriend.
Of course his rational mind rejects this, but now that he has had his eyes open to the violence inherent in the system, he cannot walk away now. He becomes a resistance fighter, a man, a myth, a legend amongst the leftists not just of North America, but the entire world.
After a long and brutal campaign trying to shore up the defenses of the Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (aka. Rojava), he returns to what remains of the United States after receiving a tip from an old contact out of Las Vegas.
It turns out there has been a security breach at Area 51, and while at first Comrade Joe is like “why would i care about that” his old friend stops him, explaining that the truth of the black site has finally been revealed.
The aliens living within Area 51 are apparenlty from an advanced society from another world, one that has actually perfected an anarcho-socialist society of genuine sincere equity. When they crash landed in Roswell all those years ago, the government took them in, healed their wounds, only to learn their politics. Soon as that was realized, the McCarthyism kicked in.
The aliens have been held prisoner for decades by the forces of the government for fear that the knowledge they have, of how a world can function without fascism or even capitalism, might escape and change the face of the world forever.
Comrade Joe’s biggest, most epic mission is about to begin, a heist and rescue mission from a heavily fortified base. He has to call in a thousand favors and old friends from adventures past, telling them that most likely they’ll all die in the attempt. Even with this knowledge, his crack squad of resistance fighters sign up anyway.
If this mission succeeds, and Comrade Joe frees the socialist aliens from their prison, the aliens will share the necessary knowledge that humanity will need to finally transform us into a more peaceful, fair, and just society like theirs. This was not originally in the aliens’ agenda, but after decades imprisoned beneath the deserts of Nevada, they’re more than willing to upend and transform us into a peaceful society as a spiteful “fuck you” to the forces that kidnapped them.
Will Comrade Joe and his Joe-mmandos be able to free the aliens and thereby free humanity from its self-imposed chains? Or will the military, at the behest of Commander-in-Chief Dorothy Keener-Brown, stop him?
Not that President Keener is aware of all these dealings, she’s been kept in the dark (just like the pres in Independence Day), so the question becomes will she do the right thing when the crimes of Area 51 are revealed to her? Will she fulfill that promise she made to herself so long ago, to truly use her power for good, defying and upending the very system she swore to uphold for the betterment of humanity as a whole?
PS. In case you’re curious… Rojava is a real place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria
Dorothy definitely needs to be single, in therapy, and surrounded by friends.
“I’m projecting, but if I were Joe in this situation, i’d be pissed and hurt. I wouldn’t DO anything of course, but if Joyce thinks that Joe will be able to be her friend after this, or want anything to do with her, shes going to be abruptly and sadly mistaken.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I think that would be a dick move after Joyce made a point of forgiving him and giving him a second chance from all his wrong doings.
Like break-up? sure, fine. Cut her out entirely because she is also a messy person capable of mistakes? Seems shitty idk.
some people can’t will themselves not to be hurt, and that doesn’t make them shitty.
I didn’t say anything about whether he was allowed to be hurt or not (he is) I said that cutting Joyce out for making a mistake would be shitty given what she stood by him through. I stand by that! You and can (and do) have different opinions on this.
You and I can* oopsie a word.
I was trying to figure out what I disliked about this take, and the closest I can come is this:
Joe was emanating a cloud of relatively diffuse harm — it was absolutely harm, but the closest he came to deliberately targeting someone for pain was repeatingly hitting on people to piss them off.
Joyce’s actions are (at this point, anyway, post-mouth-on-weenus) directly harmful to a person she’s specifically cared about as a friend.
You raise a great point (especially in light of Joyce deliberately personalizing the harm Joe did as directed at herself), but I can imagine moral scales that weigh those two things above differently (in both directions, honestly).
Again in light of Joe not really realizing the scope of his own harmful actions until Joyce made those actions about specific harm to herself, I suspect Joe’s INITIAL reaction is going to be “What Joyce did to me is worse than what I did to the women of my dorm.”
(I am going off memory, mind, rather than re-reading back to Joe’s actual malfeasance)
Joe knows the women of his dorm don’t owe him friendship. Joe doesn’t owe Joyce friendship, like she didn’t hurt him. If she’s burning bridges, he is not obligated to pretend its still there.
He deliberately targeted Joyce. To “fix her with his penis”. He also deliberately targeted several women who had expressed that they were feeling harassed.
I understand that his harm doesn’t seem as directed and specific as Joyce’s do (to you) but they do to me. I would actually say I feel like Joe’s actions were much worse.
I would be REALLY disappointed in Joe if that’s his first reaction. Like grossed out by that attitude.
In all honesty, I expect his reaction to actually be a lot closer to “I listened to you and got better, and then you turn around and do this? What the hell?”
I’m pretty sure the only reason Dorothy’s been losing focus on who she wants to be is BECAUSE she wanted Joyce but couldn’t have her. I’m pretty sure a lot of things are snapping *very* clearly into focus for her now.
True. Joe has been a great boyfriend and having Joyce break up with him because she realized she was already in love with her best girlfriend is not the worst outcome. He did his best and but she’s gay. He didn’t fail her, she isn’t mad at him or disappointed in him. Most importantly, his worst fear that he would break her heart did not come true.
I mean she is definitely not gay. Like she’s not breaking up with him because she isn’t into dudes, she is very into dudes. “He did his best but she’s bi” doesn’t pack the same emotional healing, unfortunately.
I mean put it into context. He went through all the hard work of reforming, and met someone who he has genuine feelings for and they started a relationship together and he started to turn his life around for the better and made a concentrated effort to commit to being the better man. Only for in about a week’s time the girl who he devoted to stabs him in the back to get cozy with a girl who has made it quite clear that she did NOT approve of the relationship and holds him in little regard. Someone who has been on record of taking a lot of time to control the direction of your partner’s life. That’s a pretty big thing there and the shock could make him storm off and go back to his old ways just out of spite when his genuine efforts to change for the better is only rewarded with a slimy fat wad of phlegm shot right into his eye.
I legit feel bad for Joe
Same. He’s been so good lately and he doesn’t deserve this.
Are you sad because she’s cheating on Joe? Because for the “justice”, she clearly will cheat on Dorothy. With Joe.
Yeah, giving Joe the BJ was also a dick move to Dorothy too
Ha!
Literally a dick move. She moved his dick, with her tongue.
Then kissed Dotty again.
Even with my cartoonish dislike of Dorothy, even *I* think that’s undeserved.
Dorothy didn’t seem to mind one bit.
Dorothy understands that they’re all going through a confusing, traumatic, and emotionally fraught situation, and she isn’t judging mistakes, because it would be *incredibly hypocritical if she did.* That doesn’t mean she’s fine with it continuing to happen.
I am not fine with that, but ok, here we go.
a BJ is always either a dick move or a mouth move i think
fuck
No, I don’t think a BJ counts as a fuck.
Oh, that very much depends on technique.
Are we starting the Bill Clinton debate again?
Joyce did not have sex with that man!
Depends on what the definition of the word “is” is.
Forget debate, you just took this into the realm of philosophy of language. May Wittgenstein have mercy on us all. 😆
I am, sadly, almost verbatim quoting Clinton from the time. He said “meaning” instead of definition so I slightly misremembered it.
Oh… I did not realize that. I was just all excited because I think philosophy of language is fascinating.
Please continue to be excited! Hit me with your fave language philosophy!
Well, admittedly I’m still an enthusiastic newbie to the whole thing… but one of my faves so far is the idea of “phonoaesthetics a term coined by Tolkien to represent how different sounds can, to one individual or another, be considered more beautiful/harmonious and others not-so-much. Obviously everyone’s aesthetics are different, and different sounds may mean different things to different folks…
But phonoaesthetics is part of Lord of the Rings. Tolkien designed the speech on the One Ring to be essentially, to him, the most unpleasant, cursed combination of sounds that sounded, to him, like the words of a cruel and vicious person. During the Council of Elrond, when Gandalf speaks out the One Ring poem in its native tongue, the book describes the Elves in the room as clasping their ears, almost crying out in pain. The idea that the animus behind words, as well as personal appreciation for sounds, could have affecting power on the ears to an almost magical degree…
For instance, some of the languages that Tolkien considered most beautiful were Finnish, Hebrew, Latin, and Welsh, though he definitely had a soft spot for Old English and its relatives. This is reflected in his choice of skeletons to base his languages on. Quenya (Old Elvish) has a lot in common with Finnish and a dash of Latin. Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, is based on Hebrew. Sindarin (Modern Elvish) has a lot in common with Welsh, though it is also derived from Quenya, there’s plenty of carry-over, though sometimes very subtle.
The Sindarin word balrog translates to something like “demon of might.” But it’s derived from the much older Quenya term valuraukar. As languages evolve, phonemes (the sounds present in a language) can shift over time. B often becomes V and vice versa because both of them are made with the front portion of the lips. P and F can also switch places (and in fact, the P to F shift noticed in the divide between Romance languages and Germanic languages is one of the biggest.
See here… what’s the Latin word for dad? Pater.
The English word? Father, which is derived from the older fæder.
Yet wildly, the Germanic branches and the Romance branches have a common ancestor, but went different paths as evinced by this single phoneme shift.
Okay, this isn’t so much philosophy of language as actually linguistics and etymology, but it’s all connected and all exciting to me!
OFF: I’m just happy that I’ve found some Tolkien’s nerds like Tequila Mockingbird.
How do you think Joyce would handle it if she found out that while breaking up with Walky, Dorothy gave him “one for the road” as well?
repulsed, but that has nothing to do with dorothy. its just that walky is involved. ideally, there’d be a large hand covering that part of the scene, so that only dorothy is visible.
Joyce said she had sex with Dorothy. She told Joe. He didn’t seem bothered. They began sexual activity. Then she engaged in kissing with Dorothy. Then more sexual activity with Joe. Then more snuggling with Dorothy. If you are a Monogamy Paladin, that’s a lot of c-word, but presumably to both, because who is she supposedly monogamous with? Clearly she is not monogamous but may have leftover hangups that monogamy is “supposed” to happen (but then may wonder if that is true… and whether Joe did give her permission).
Might a good word for this confusion be a ‘clusterfuck’?
“Clusterfucking of Age” is the alternative title to the comic.
“who is she supposedly monogamous with?”
The one she was in a relationship with. The one she carefully pointed out that the “laundry” she did with Dorothy wasn’t cheating beacause it was before they got together. I don’t even see how anyone honestly reaches the “Joyce’s whole relationship with Joe was cheating on Dorothy” idea.
Dorothy has stated that she does not consider things Joyce does with Joe cheating on her until Joe and Joyce have broken up. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/clocked-2/
What are the chances Joe just farted and this is how Joyce discovers she’s into that?
not how I expected her to murder her face with his tush.
Oh no don’t do this conversation in their sexiest outfits yet. Huh, I may have a thing for plaid and stripped colored shirts. That is very weirdly specific.
It’s okay we don’t kinkshame here.
We do kinkaskwhy though
ACHIEVEMENT GET: NEW FETISH UNLOCKED!
Hey, it’s not exactly that. It’s … I don’t know, maybe because the shirts look nice and I guess they are collared and so, they remined me of good schools and skilled workers, and so maybe the wearers are smart, but the shirts also have lumberjack patterns so maybe their around someone who is outdoorsy and adventurous or in tune with the environment. Maybe they’re an ecologist. All the ecologists I’ve met have been kind, intelligent, big picture thinkers with a pinch of adventure in their lives – that’s attractive right?
Of course it is. I was merely teasing using playful internet vernacular. Everything you listed sounds like completely wholesome reasons to find a particular style attractive.
I predict a comic soon that will generate a comments section with 3000 replies.
Oh, you’re making a conservative estimate. I expect the site to crash. Pay that money for tomorrow’s comic, folks.
The question is how many of them are going to be from user names we’ve never seen before.
I doubt that will pass Joyce and Dorothy kissing
I understand that it’s unlikely but I’m rooting for Joyce having a boyfriend AND a girlfriend
I really wish it would happen to… but boy do I not see that happening. I mean, unless Willis throws us an absolute fucking curveball.
*too
maybe save the fucking curveballs for Slipshine, this could be just a regular curveball
You know what? Fair enough. 😄
You are going to get thrown out of the baseball game.
There’s a chance. I honestly don’t think Joyce has done enough yet for Joe to lose interest. That means the choice to end things could be her decision and she’s shown a remarkable capacity for greed lately.
Can I ask what you mean by that last bit?
I think Joyce has shown to be pretty greedy relationship wise. She’s very okay with pivoting between lovers and I think if given the opportunity to have more than one she would take it. To be clear I’m not saying being in a poly relationship is inherently greedy I think Joyce specifically is operating in a way where she’d be eager to have her cake and eat it too.
Joyce has never been super good about respecting other people’s relationship autonomy.
I think impulsive might be a better descriptor than greedy. A lot of her choices vis-a-vis relationships have been spur of the moment decisions to “follow her heart”, basically.
I think maybe once you can call it impulse but this is quickly forming a pattern. I don’t think Joyce propositioning Dorothy for shower sex was an impulse. We’ll see how she handles telling Joe though.
While there is a extremely small possibility that Joe would be up for it if it made Joyce happy, I highly doubt that Dorothy would be up for it in the long run. She has been very adamant about them both ending things with their partners before continuing in this relationship.
That might just be a… failure of imagination? I really don’t think the poly option has crossed her mind. And if it did, well… it seems likely she might reject it pretty quick, but maybe she might consider it.
I don’t think it would work for Dorothy either, she gets pretty possessive, and was having PTSD because Joyce went on a date with Joe. That’s why I want to see them try.
Specificly because of the possessiveness, sharing Joyce’s affections would be good for Dorothy. Her possessive need for control is not healthy.
Yeah, underneath the sapphic cuteness, Joyce and Dorothy have been pretty toxic for the last 24 hours. I think they BOTH need somebody else to keep them honest if they want this to last in any way.
It’s bad enough that I’m unable to find any of this cute.
Honestly, this. However much I may joke about wanting messy poly stuff…
Dorothy’s a mess lately, and I doubt Joyce will push her to confront her issues. Besides, I don’t think Joyce’s feelings for Joe are limited to lust, and if Dorothy picks up on that, she might consider herself unacceptably selfish (by her own moral code) for having pushed Joyce to break up with him. Not claiming she’d be right to feel this way: like I said, she’s a mess.
Meanwhile, Joyce still loves Joe. How stable would DoJo be if she’s trying to bury unresolved feelings? Does Joyce even know how to bury her feelings in any way other than dusting off her old-style fundie repression?
On the other hand, if Joyce were to break up with Dorothy instead, Dorothy’d almost certainly end up spiraling even harder than she has been.
That’s not to say a poly relationship is the only solution… Joyce breaking up with Joe, then her relationship with Dorothy falling apart in a way that forces Dorothy to do some major introspection and come out of it healthier and, perhaps, ready for healthy love with Joyce? That could also work, and I’m sure there are other possibilities.
But maybe I’m overly pessimistic and, once the breakups are done, they’ll be able to address the other problems with their relationship. I’d be fine with that too…
Just… I’m hoping something changes, because right now, even the good aspects of DoJo feel tainted.
I think it would be more likely to go through if Dorothy could respect Joe enough to complete the conversation that he tried to initiate with her just a day or so ago. Perhaps hearing Sarah’s endorsement of Joe and finally letting go of her repression might free her up emotionally to consider making that change in attidute towards him.
As nice of a slipshine as that might make, i think it’s HIGHLY unlikely.
1) Joe probably knows how toxically volatile 3somes can be and probably dislikes the idea of a polycule, especially since hes navigating a relationship where he actually cares about the person 2) Joyce is not anywhere near mature enough or ready to manage the emotional and mental needs of two partners. Shes not even ready for one partner yet really 3) Dorothy doesnt seem like the kind of person to want to share. Additionally, Dorothy and Joe have never expressed any interest in each other even remotely AND if Danny found out that Dorothy and Joe were involved, it would just be fuckin weird.
Joyce could just be the hinge, though that still runs into the problem you brought up in point 2.
I see a lot of comments here that seem to think that Joe and Dorothy would be in a relationship or need to be interested in each other and, while polycules can include that, it really isn’t necessary.
As Tequila Mocking bird says, Joyce can be the person that the both date, separtately, and all agree to this situation in a mature and consensual poly relationship. I think Joyce will need a crash course from Sierra and co., because in her present state she is clueless, but she is a fast and detarmined learner especially when it comes to fulfilling her passions it seems.
This last sentence is the part that makes me think the polycule still has a shot.
I’m not worried about Joyce, I’m worried about Dorothy in this scenario. Dorothy needs therapy, not a relationship, and definitely not a complicated web of relationships.
Very much this. Dorothy is behaving really badly as of late. She needs help, and a long, hard look in the mirror. Who are you really, Ms Keener?
People who need therapy can have relationships, depending on what is going on with them. Dorothy could manage a relationship IF she gets the space and support she needs and takes the relationship carefully/tentatively… which she’s currently not doing any of, so yeah it’s looking bad!
That’s rather insulting to people in need of therapy and people in therapy. People don’t need to be completely fixed before they get into a relationship, a stable relationship can even be helpful. No one is owed a relationship, but the only people who get input on who should be in a relationship are the people in it.
she canonically goes to therapy, so… you know, good news on that front?
She also, IIRC, canonically misleads her therapist specifically to avoid getting diagnosed with anything that might harm her potential political career.
Now that she’s not planning on having a political career anymore, I wonder how her next session’s going to go.
As a poly person myself…
Ah, yes, a “mature” agreement with lots of communication, to build a poly relationship where the hinge member (arguably the person whose communication skills are MOST important) is currently checks notes running around yelling with her hands over her ears and eyes closed in order to find the willpower to not just immediately sex Joe up instead of telling him the news that would even initiate the possibility of such a thing.
Much communicate. Very mature.
ok but presumably you’re not 18 living away from home for the first time and also navigating the fact that it turns out you’re gay
I don’t know what any of that has to do with “Joyce is nowhere near the maturity or headspace required to be the hinge of a poly triad with two other people who don’t like each other”, but you go off.
So I’m sure you didn’t mean to, but describing triads as “threesomes” and “toxically volatile” as well as saying Joe won’t be into poly because he’s “navigating a relationship where he actually cares about the person” is really shitty vibes.
It is possible to be poly. In a non-toxic triad. With people you genuinely care about.
to be clear, THIS group would definitely be toxic as hell, and probably aren’t going to be in a triad but just in a relationship where Joyce is the hinge
It would be a mess, and I want it so much.
It occurs to me to wonder… of those of us hoping for poly, who’s hoping or expecting it not to be messy? Is there anyone?
Certainly not me. Though I do want it to have more good than bad, even if only by a narrow margin. I want it to succeed in such a complicated way that, years from now, they look back on it and wonder how they survived.
That last sentence encompasses all my desires for this ship. I also will have a good time if it doesn’t succeed, but I will enjoy it a LOT more if they drag a healthy relationship out of the mess kicking and screaming.
…eventually and after a LOT of struggle and badness.
I’m sure SOMEONE wants a polycule that will be all sunshine and rainbows with no hurt feelings ever.
I think the more popular opinions are:
— “yes, give me that #MessyPoly” (some of the folks in this camp are just generally trash goblins, some are folks who think messy poly #rep would be nice: many of them, poly themselves, but by no means all)
— “no thank you, any #poly but this” (some of the folks in this camp just don’t want Joyce/Dorothy to happen at all for any number of reasons, some specifically don’t want Joe/Joyce/Dorothy for any number of reasons… and some are themselves poly folk who would LOVE more main character polyamory from DoA, but don’t want it Like This)
(Both camps have good folks in ’em who have every right to feel the way they do! The second camp is also unfortunately having to share their campground with some of the worst people who read this comic. I feel bad for all the sensible folks who keep having a “Worst Guy You Know Just Made a Good Point” time.)
(Also let’s be clear: if you’re just kinda grumpy, that last paragraph is not about you. It’s about the comments that get deleted for spewing misogyny and queerphobia. It’s about the “since when is Joyce gaaaaaay” whiners. If you’re just grumpy, you’re probably one of the folks I feel bad for. Being grumpy does not make you Worst Guy.)
yes, forgive me if I was over general. I mean these specific people/cartoon characters.
Polycules, triads, line families, etc are not toxic and can be extremely loving and welcoming. I am not personally mentally built for it, which I consider a personal feeling, but please dont think im disparaging the lifestyle for those who can do it.
I feel like attempted polycule that crashes and burns because Joyce is not prepared for that sort of relationship and Joe and Dorothy have not insubstantial amounts of bad blood that can’t be smoothed over because they both want to smooch the same girl would be my instinct for how to write this.
*Do* Joe and Dorothy have substantial amounts of bad blood?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel like a polycule is in the cards *at all*, but Dotty’s resentment and frustration with Joe lately has been about him having *Joyce*. And when he confronted her about it, he seemed nothing but sympathetic to her.
I think she comes out of this feeling *bad* for him, but I’m pretty sure any emnity she felt for him at this point has drained out entirely, and I don’t think he’s regarded her as anything but a friend for awhile now.
If there will be any bad blood going forward, it’ll probably be because of the cheating aspect of all this, but even with that, I feel like that’s more likely to be something he holds against *Joyce*. He knows full well that Dotty was going through an identity crisis through all this.
Lately, yes, but she spent years resenting having to put up with him while dating Danny.
Now, mind you, I think their last conversation was a turning point and that Dorothy could easily come to be Joe’s friend after it, but her negative feelings about him weren’t 100% Joyce-related.
They knew each other in high school. Dorothy went through puberty with a commentary track by pre-reform Joe.
Oh no
That was supposed to be a reply why is it not
It works well as a comment on its own, on this and many other strips.
Ooooooh yeeeees.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh yeah!
Ooooh my!
As someone who avoid confrontation like a plague, it was my honest reaction out lot ready today’s strip. I’ve recently had a talk with my boyfriend about being poly and he’s never been happier to be with both of us. I just doubt it’s going to be as smoothly here, and i’m sad about it lol
*Grass Skirt Chase plays on hacked muzak*
I imagine it also doesn’t help that he’s dressed like the small town love interest guy from the hallmark movies that something something meaning of christmas
Perhaps there’s a future career path for Joe in acting!
Independent of everything else… I hope one day to be described by someone as having a “powerful sexual kindness.” That sounds like the kinda dude I wanna be.
Boy, that Tequila Mockingbird has a powerful sexual kindness.
See how easy that was?
Goofiness aside, it’s an admirable goal. Hope you earn it.
Having powerful sexual kindness got me into all sorts of scrapes when I was younger. Not that I regret the, you understand.
My father wanted me to have powerful sexual kindness. I wanted to be what he wanted me to be.
I don’t know that I’ve ever had those specific words used, but I HAVE been described as “the human incarnation of the campfire rule” which I thought was a pretty nice thing for a couple of former partners to say about me.
campsite* rule, that is.
I was reading that like “Campfire rule? What, don’t get too close or you’ll get burned? That doesn’t seem very nice…”
Is that leaving things better than you found them?
Yup. As good a rule for relationships as it is for wilderness travel.
Thank you, I wasn’t able to look that up at the time I read it, but I have literally never heard of “the campsite rule.”
I assume it fell out of favor as a metaphor due to being coined by Dan Savage before his “man, that guy really is going for the misogynist gay man stereotype” phase, but it was in common use in my poly/ENM circles post-college.
Actually, given that origin, that’s probably why I’ve not heard it. I only discovered poly was a thing about a year or two ago, on account of meeting someone who is part of that community. My response to it is my usual to folks who are different than me, which is “it’s like pineapple on pizza. I’m not into it, but I’m not going to judge or hate those who do enjoy it.”
My friend is living proof that it can work for some people, and to that I say more power to ’em. 🙂
someone once told me I have “sexy empathy” and I straight up had no idea what they meant until this strip, thank u Willis
That honeslty sounds like the greatest compliment someone could ever give. I say hold up your head with pride to have been that positive a force in someone’s life.
Well shes shown a stunning lack of self control the last few in universe days. Lets just see how bad this trainwreck gets
“and then she unhinged her jaw and swallowed joe whole, it was crazy”
This made me actually lol, or …scol (snort-chuckle out loud).
Joe’s gonna be destroyed. Train wreck inbound.
I’m happy she’s at least gotten as far as a) telling him she needs to tell him something and b) indicating that she can’t be distracted by sexy stuff before she says it. Like it’s still gonna suck but she is going for it and has given enough information that if she stalls he can coax her to tell him (not that he should have to, but if it’s what it takes it’s what it takes)
tomorrow is going to be *amazing*
maximum sicko mode will be activated
You are almost certainly right about that. We sit now in the eye of the storm… let us brace for what is to come (or grab popcorn, whatever your druthers.)
“I’m breaking up with Dorothy!”
Okay… hands down, that might be the most delightfully chaos goblin prediction I’ve read. I salute you, anon. This would be so funny I might bust a rib laughing were it to occur.
Thank you! But I’m sure Willis’ answer will be even better!
Unless his one-true-pairing blog post was a misdirect, then sadly I don’t think so.
Phipps doesn’t think Willis is going to have Joyce break up with Dorothy. He just thinks whatever Willis DOES do is going to be even better than his own suggested twist.
Yes, I see maximum messTM.
I wonder if the odor is Brut, or Axe or my personal favorite Old Spice Original?
I toldja, it’s Powerful Sexual Kindness! ™
(yes the exclamation point is part of the name)
Now I find myself wondering what kind of scents one would put in a fragrance with that name…
I dunno, but it’s probably made by Imaginary Authors
Ylang ylang
If you haven’t done a ylang ylang infused oil massage with a lover*… I recommend.
Of course, barring scent sensitivities or other contraindications.
*Can include self.
Always a fascinating time when I learn something new. Never heard of ylang-ylang.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cananga_odorata
Look at your hand. It’s that monogamy you wanted. Back to me. Back to your hand. The monogamy is now polygamy.
Bravo. A dozen internet to thee. Absolutely made my morning reading this.
I kinda clocked Joe as 100% a dude who is paying a lot more money than he probably needs to in order to smell 95% similar to Old Spice Original.
I do think Joyce also just likes his musk. She talked about it right after they worked out together.
Lovers tend to smell nice in a complicated way. Pheromones, I suspect, so not exactly a scent either.
I mean yes, Joe literally said “welcome to pheromones” in response.
You know how we’ve been building up to coitus? Turns out I’ve been ready to boink Dorothy’s lights out for years!
“Which is impressive since I haven’t even known her a full year. THAT’S HOW POWERFUL SAPPHIC LOVE IS.”
Frankly, after watching She-Ra, I’m fully willing to believe it totally is that powerful. 🤪
The alt text is amazing, fff.
The president told you to kill him, huh? A Munchruggian Candidate?
I’ll see myself out.
Wondering how Joe, with his childhood baggage about cheating partners, thanks to his dad, is going to take having been cheated on.
Anyway, it’s kinda ironic: Joe, known as the horny playboy, has been the loyal one throughout their (admittedly short!) time together. Meanwhile Joyce, known as the upright, upstanding moral compass, is the cheater.
Is it icky on Joyce’s part? Yes. Do I feel sorry for Joe? Very much so. Do I still enjoy the delicious drama of it all? Absolutely!
he’s at least told dorothy it’d make her worse than him: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/assureyou/
Huh, I forgot about that. Good chance Joe blames Dorothy for corrupting Joyce
I dunno, that all seemed pretty affectionate to me.
+1
Affectionate is a pretty good read, but I also think that it’s not gonna be a “blame Dorothy for corruption” thing but a “Look, I pointed out to Joyce that she should do what she wants, that was an OBVIOUS hint for her to choose Dorothy if that’s what she actually wanted and let me down gently”.
Joe should know better than to drop hints to an autistic person.
That’s definitely one of those “dumbing of age, not smarting of age” things — I don’t think there’s any specific reason he SHOULD know better, especially if he assumes Joyce will fill him in on what he needs to know (as many 18-yr-olds of any type will do about their first real serious partners)
I just figured it was something he should have picked up from spending 18 years with an autistic mother. Unless she was much better at picking up hints than I and many other autistic people are I’d think he’d have 18 years of observed data on the subject. Especially considering the other knowledge on the subject he’s pulled out since finding out about Joyce.
The thing there is that Dorothy says “knowingly”, but it was not “knowingly”, Joe has just made her realise this is possible, just this minute. Yes, that is creating a crisis, but her logic is incorrect, she is not ‘c-wording’, she is unaware of her own ‘into’ness.
Ehhhh… I think to some degree people are still responsible for their own obliviousness. She still chose to send Joyce a “titty pic”.
It has to do with honesty, including self-honesty. Dorothy was rationalizing her behavior as something else because she didn’t want to be honest with herself. But if you are intentionally maintaining “ignorance” you can’t absolve yourself of your actions.
Even if you absolve Dorothy of everything up to that point as “unknowing”, she knows now, so that wouldn’t apply to the actual kissing.
I don’t think anyone sees Joyce as a “moral compass”. I think she’s probably generally seen as someone who is slowly getting interesting/nice after starting out as uptight and very humourless, and rather unkind.
Yeah, and Joe kind of implies that’s how he sees it too in this strip:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/situation/
I think he holds himself to a higher standard than he does others, like many people do. He would have a very hard time forgiving himself if he cheated, but it doesn’t mean he would be all that hurt if he can see Joyce really care (and hopefully, is sorry, under the denial).
I expect Joyce to honestly tell him “I love you”, and then explain the situation. The way we as spectators can easily doubt it makes it a powerful build-up, and she wouldn’t lie in such a situation.
Unkind? I would say kindness has been Joyce’s most defining trait since the very beginning of the comic.
I feel similarly to you, except I’m not enjoying the drama as much as you I guess. I just want Joyce and Dorothy to talk with their boyfriends and break up with them already.
I mean, then surely this exact strip is what you wanted? She’s opened the conversation, it’s coming!
She hasn’t actually told him anything yet. I’m waiting to see if she does or if she chickens out again.
My fingers are crossed for you then!!
:(((((
Joe’s wee sad face in the penultimate panel is killing me
Joe can already tell something’s up
Absolutely nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan, and I unreservedly endorse it.
Ha ha .. I can’t wait.. till Joyce cheats on Dorothy with Joe. (Again)
She clearly can’t resist him.
Willis is loving this. Knowing he’s setting up an inversion. Let’s see who’s against cheating now
I think Joe wouldn’t stand for that. First I don’t expect him to be fine with having a relationship with Joyce after this (maybe I’m wrong but I hope not). Second I don’t think he would ever be a knowing party to cheating.
And it would ruin everything he loves about Joyce. If she was intentionally cheating on Dotty with him, how is that the sweet, kindhearted girl he fell in love with? It’d be some seriously toxic stuff. There’s no way.
Oh no and he’s looking really REALLY good today too
I wanted to say I hope she doesn’t fumble the breakup too much, but (as other commenters have said) the comic isn’t called Smarting of Age.
Apropos of nothing, I haven’t seen Ana comment in a long while.
He smells like freshly baked bread.
what kind?
french bread?
San Francisco sour dough?
banana bread?
challah bread?
Joe swears by Schwebel’s.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/absurdly/
Oh boy, not a great start here.
The alt-text is just…perfect!
Red background panel incoming in the next 5 strips [unlocks the bunker]
…I think I own that shirt.
May just need to take a long break from this comic soon.
That’s totally fair. I hope it helps!
Re: title text
I don’t think Dorothy ever would tell you to do that, also I think she’s not on the whole “president” train anymore
Ok, I don’t think the ”Joyce is a lesbian now” theory holds water.
I’ve had sieves that held more water than that ever did.
Nice
If Joyce has to do this just to speak to the guy…
I question her sudden lesbianism…
After all, what has she done, apart from a li’l kissing?
The realities of sex might be a bit different…
Ach, what do *I* know…?
I don’t get people who talk about them being lesbian in this context. I’m assuming that’s what you meant, sorry if it’s not.
Joyce is sexually attracted to guys like Joe, that’s hard to deny. She is romantically attracted to Dorothy, at the very least. And after learning she had “lesbian sex with Joe”, she doesn’t seem to have a problem with doing the same with Dorothy.
She could be heterosexual and homoromantic, or she could just be Bi in both ways.
I also don’t get people who talk about this being sudden when Joyce has been attracted to Dorothy since damn near the start of the comic.
Also just yesterday someone was saying that allies need to be better about hitting that report button. Bi erasure is really one of those things the report button needs to be used for more often.
I’m not sure what the threshold for posts vanishing until Willis looks them over is, but it feels like a post with this many replies should have hit it before I saw it this evening.
This is so bizarre to read. What about _the entirety_ of this comic makes you think it’ll be that binary.
people are bi
What lesbianism? She’s bi.
(…-romantic at least.)
She’s not a lesbian.
People can be bisexual. Which is what Joyce seems to be, along with Dorothy and a bunch of other characters in the comic.
I think she is Bi. I think both she and Dotty are bi. This comic is written by Willis not Whedon.
What is the Whedon reference?
On Buffy, Willow went from being in love with two guys to being in love with a woman and identifying as a lesbian without anyone bringing up the possibility of her being bi. To be fair, they probably couldn’t have gotten away with having a non-evil bisexual main character on network TV in 2000, considering the pushback they got for having a lesbian. Joss had to threaten to walk off the show just to get the network to air one kiss between Willow and her girlfriend.
Yeah I still remember a lot of “Hey, we exist” posts back then and recently Asshole Whedon said if he made the show today Willow would gave been bi, and I call him Asshole Whedon for how he treated the actors and actresses…especially Charisma Carpenter.
“be fair, they probably couldn’t have gotten away with having a non-evil bisexual main character on network TV in 2000”
This isn’t true, but it IS complicated. “Bisexual characters must be evil” was never a mandate anywhere, and there’s a reason why TV Tropes has a Sweeps Week Lesbian Kiss entry: the characters on that list are not all lesbians, they’re usually characters who had been portrayed as straight before the kiss and would continue to have relationships with men after it.
It’s less that these characters had to be evil to kiss another woman, and more that they weren’t supposed to start identifying specifically as bi afterwards, even if they clearly were and always had been. (See: Jadzia Dax, Deep Space Nine.)
Also, the propensity for bi characters to be evil… post-Hayes Code, that wasn’t a literal mandate anywhere, just… humans being prejudiced. There’s a lot of overlap between “campy villain” and “queer-coded character”, and culturally it’s been kind of a team effort to get to this point. Ursula, for example, was lovingly modeled after a famous drag queen, Divine. But I kind of doubt anyone was specifically trying to queer-code Scar or Jafar or Gaston.
(Heck, I think Gaston was probably supposed to be anti-queer-coded: he leads a mob explicitly to fear and hate anything “different”, and he’s very macho. It’s just that he hits that machismo so hard that it becomes camp again!)
Anyway, if you listen to the commentary track for the episode where Willow chooses Tara, which I don’t recommend because it’s infuriating lol*, I think it’s pretty clear that Willow wasn’t made bi because Whedon and Marti Noxon didn’t think bisexuality was a real thing. Which wasn’t really an uncommon attitude in the 1990s, and is still how some people view it today.
(The general idea seems to be that most women who claim to be bisexual are really straight and just “doing it for attention”, and most men who claim to be bisexual are really gay and just “in denial”. Since Willow’s attraction to women was supposed to be both real and not for attention, I don’t think it ever crossed Whedon’s mind to have her self-identify as bi.)
* There are a lot of jokes. Some jokes specifically directed at Seth Green, who’s also present, about what he must have done wrong as a boyfriend to “turn” Willow gay. Lots of that fun 2000s-era “ironic” bigotry going on. I don’t think there’s a single moment in the commentary where any of them actually treat the material seriously, or like something that might have been important to anybody growing up in the era, and I just do not recommend anyone listen to it. Even if you already hate Whedon and are looking for a fix, it’s just noxious.
Bonus trivia: Whedon had always planned for either Xander or Willow to come out, and he’d always planned for it to be as gay — if you rewatch the first three seasons, you can find breadcrumbs for both of them, and it became part of Xander’s characterization, so he’s still dropping breadcrumbs late in the series. (The specific way in which Xander expresses envy of Angel by calling him very attractive continues with Riley and Spike, at least.)
But also:
Let’s not erase lesbians in our rush to protect bi women?
Identity is complicated and, above all else, personal. If Willow were a real person, that real person could still identify as a lesbian rather than a bisexual for any number of perfectly legitimate reasons.
Some women wind up feeling like they’re only technically bisexual: like their attraction to women is so much stronger, or like for any number of reasons they’re just never going to want to actually act on attraction to men. Others wind up feeling like they were never really attracted to men at all, but coercive heteronormativity had them convinced otherwise. Still other women do genuinely wind up feeling like they USED TO BE straight and now they’re gay. And finally? Sometimes you just vibe more with one term than you do with another.
Also? “Lesbian” very much used to mean “women who are attracted to women”, not “women who aren’t attracted to men”, and the movement to push out and other bisexual women was pretty recent! There’s much more shared history than there is separate history, and people for whom the separation is important are never going to stop feuding over historical figures like Sappho.
I am giving Whedon 0 credit for knowing any of the above, he wrote an authentic lesbian character by accident, but it’s still true. Willow belongs to all of us.
Just so you know, i appreciated your essay.
Hah, thanks.
I loved this. And Willow becoming a lesbian despite having dated guys was actually INSANELY important to baby-me. I loved that show, and Willow was the first girl I saw kiss another girl and I swear to god it was like someone threw a torch into me and lit me all up from the inside.
I’m sorry there wasn’t bi-rep until later, I’m sorry so much of it STILL SUCKS but lesbians weren’t exactly flush with rep at the time either, and there’s no need to drag one side down just to push your side up (agreeing with Li).
But double underline the fact that lesbian doesn’t mean “isn’t attracted to men” it means “women (and others who identify with this label) who are attracted to women (either exclusively or not)”
Source: am a nonbinary lesbian who is occasionally attracted to men, and literally no one will ever stop me calling myself a lesbian because they decided to pick a narrow definition that doesn’t include me.
(cept me: sometimes I use other labels as they fit on the day)
All of this. ❤️
I float between bi and gay, and at this point I usually just say queer, but like. All of this!
Nothing from what you just said.
“sudden”
lmao okay💕
I won’t bang the “she’s bi” drum because enough people have done that, I think you probably get the point. But she is.
Joyce is aware that her sexual desire lacks object permanence and is attempting to defeat it by blocking out Joe from her senses.
this is going well
I’m fairly certain she’s going to manage to tell him. But I think it’s 50-50 whether or not she fucks him first.
Joe will be so confused
Split the difference, she’ll tell him while he’s fucking her.
Ok, that might mess me up, if I were Joe
*Might?!?*
*Imagine* the comments
“…so, do we keep going, or…?”
Willis’s most capitalist move now would be for Joyce to turn around, say ‘I have something i need to get off my chest.’ and then announce the Slipshine.
‘Les BI’ girls, Joyce ‘an’ Dorothy. There ya go. A bit of French, clearly Bi, and all the letters that make up Lesbian, in the right order, albeit interrupted.
Well, that was meant to be attached to the JoeCovenant discussion, sorry.
Is it really that powerful? that blinding?
this is what happens when you don’t code JoyceBot properly, Doris
Do it, Joyce! BREAK HIS HEART! CRUSH HIS BONES! FLAY HIS– okay, that might be a little extreme, but definitely break up with him.
Why though?
Because she’s in love with someone else and wants to be in and is wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with that person.
I would say that evidence strongly suggests that Joyce does not want an exclusive relationship with either Joe or Dorothy. The way Joyce has been acting suggests she wants to have a romantic relationship with Joe and Dorothy but societal pressure and lingering remnants of the way she was raised have her trying to force herself into exclusivity she’s been taught she should want instead of talking to everyone involved and seeing if she can get what she actually wants which is dating Dorothy and Joe.
Sometimes you have to choose between two things that you want.
Sure looks like she wants them both.
She *wants* them both, she can’t *have* them both unless they are *both* interested in an open or poly relationship, and if that were her goal, she would have already talked to Dorothy about it. In fact you can generally assume it would’ve been the *first* think she did. Dorothy would not be operating under the assumption that they are “breaking up with” their boyfriends, she would have been talking about how to approach the issue instead. She wasn’t, which means Joyce hasn’t talked to her about a poly relationship, which means if Joyce *wants* one, she’s going about it in the worst possible way.
Im making a bag of popcorn, anyone want some?
My prediction, polycule. Joyce will be dating both Joe and Dotty.
Welcome to the polycule group, there are fruit snacks.
Wait, polycule group as in “people who want the DoJoJo polycule to be canon” or “people who are in a polycule?” I kinda want to know because those fruit snacks sounds delicious right about now.
“People who want the DoJoJo+ polycule to be canon”
For “people who are in a polycule” they get the little peanut butter cookies with hershey’s kisses on top.
That’s fine by me! I’ve never liked my sweets with peanut butter in them. Something about mixing salty and sugary is unpleasant to my palate… but more for the rest of y’all! I shall enjoy my delicious Ally gummies and cheer my peanut-butter loving homies on.
[to the old Meow Mix jingle]
Bi bi bi bi
Bi bi bi bi
Bi bi bi bi, bi bi bi bi
The thing is she’s young, completely inexperienced, and coming out (grin) of a completely repressed background. Of course she is a mess, of course she’s going to handle it badly, she has no idea what she’s doing.
*free-associates to the Mug root beer commercial*
“Why aren’t you singing along, Big Z?”
“I’ve forgotten the words!”
I mean, she’s literally on a university level course on the topic. It’s not like she just emerged from a barrel.
There’s a huge difference between theoretical discussion, and practical knowledge from experience.
Aside from which she’s in the middle of (unless the class ended over the time skip) a 101 course. The barrel has barely been popped open.
Y’know, I was pondering making a “joke” post where I claimed to unironically want everything I (as an OG “relationship paladin”) have been accused of hoping for in the last couple of months, and I couldn’t bring myself to do because all of that stuff is whack even in jest.
Okay, here we go. Joe, I am begging you to be cool about this. Also of the boyfriends I feel like Joe would be the most likely to be OK with polyamory so let’s hope that this might actually work out.
Honestly in his case he might be like “Yeah I kind of expected this to happen.”. He is very aware of Dotty’s feelings for Joyce and probably vice versa. He will NOT let Dotty live it down however, it will material for jokes for years to come.
“Where would I find Miss Righteous? Right in my girlfriend’s bed!”
I hope, for drama/honesty’s sake, that he’s… not okay with it, even if he isn’t surprised. “I joked about it, and hoped you’d be honest with yourself, but it still hurts that it happened.”
If he goes into a poly relationship just so his brain doesn’t have to accept the fact that he was cheated on? That’s the worst.
Look, I get wanting to see all the ships sail. But there is *no* indication that there’s any notion of polyamory here. Poly relationships aren’t for everyone, and Joyce and Dotty both are behaving like they intend to break up with their boyfriends. They want and *expect* exclusivity from each other. They haven’t been talking about how they’re going to pitch a quople or a polycule or whatever to their boyfriends, they’ve been talking about *breaking up with them.*
And if Walky and/or Joe pitches the open relationship at this point, it’s going to seem like bargaining, trying to hold on to a relationship that’s ending. Even if the girls agreed to it, that’s not a balanced starting place. And it would feel *especially* unfair because Joyce has *already* broken his trust *and* led him on.
This isn’t going poly. Joyce needs to let Joe move on to better things. Probably Rachel.
Out of the four people involved here Walky is the only one who has actually proposed a poly relationship in the past. He passed it off as a joke, but he’s known for hiding things he’s serious about as jokes.
Dorothy has been talking about breaking up with boyfriends. I have yet to see Joyce say it.
Joyce absolutely does not want to break up with Joe.
Dorothy doesn’t really want to break up with Walky so much as she doesn’t want to really have been with him in the first place, but it was an easy and uncomplicated way to get her buttons pressed in a way she likes so whatever it worked out.
Also I’d be really curious how many of the people going “what there’s no indication this could go poly” are the kind of people who also say “I’m just build for monogamy” because like… how do you think people find out they’re poly in this specific culture?
Except Dotty said it *to Joyce*, and Joyce did not contradict her or open a discussion at that point, which is what someone would do if they were even entertaining this possibility. And *Joyce* is the one that referred to the blowie as “cheating” on Dorothy.
The evidence here is clearly showing that both Joyce and Dotty are thinking of this new thing between them as an exclusive relationship that necessitates ending their relationships with other people.
You know, it’s not cheating if both of their boyfriends are OK with being part of a thruple/quadruple.
It is, if you haven’t actually talked it out. Not unfixable however, I agree.
Teeeechnically only if everyone is assuming exclusivity from the start.
Which they are.
But it’s hypothetically possible to get a bunch of people who all, by sheer coincidence, are not cheating on anyone because they all for whatever reason aren’t assuming monogamy and also are just really terrible at communication.
not just assuming. Joyce has told Joe they are.
That conversation has to happen BEFORE the cheating.
Deeply ironic gravatar sighted.
Not really. Asher isn’t cheating. He’s fully moved on. He just didn’t tell Jennifer he was dumping her, because she wasn’t giving him any basic respect, so why should she expect any in return?
Nothing to dump her from, she said he wasn’t her boyfriend, which imo frees him up to do whatever he wants.
No, he’s not, but his conversation didn’t happen before his kiss, either, even if he ended up not being cheating on account of Jennifer didn’t give a shit about their relationship.
The kiss was initiated by Ethan and was directly followed by this strip: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/incredibly/
They didn’t meet again until after https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/stockmarket/ in which, when Asher suggested he might be her boyfriend, she dismissively rejected his statement (in an ambiguous way, but making it clear that, even if she did consider him her boyfriend, she didn’t feel strongly about it).
I mean, I’m not ok with cheating. This was pretty unambiguously not cheating. Well, except technically for that first couple of seconds before he pushed Ethan away, but blaming Asher for not reacting immediately seems unreasonable to me.
Just to add: that “not ok with cheating” bit may seem to conflict with my wishing for messy poly involving Joyce, Joe, Dorothy and whoever else they can drag in. The distinction is primarily founded in the following two facts:
1: others have already discussed the cheating extensively, so my doing so would be redundant.
2: I’m a trash goblin who craves mess.
Pedantic addition:
3: I’m aroace and have a decidedly superficial understanding of cheating that mostly amounts to “if you think you have to hide it from your partner, something’s probably badly wrong”.
To paraphrase Elan (after he figured out both illusions and sarcasm): “I mean, it’s not as if knowing that we need to lie about it to your boyfriend is a good indication that it may be the wrong idea.”
Well yeah, it’s right on the knife edge of an edge case, largely because it’s clear from panel 1 that Asher’s FIRST reaction was “lean in”, even if his second-panel reaction was “no, I am not single”.
I’ve been in relationships where that would have been considered “cheating”, on the grounds of “you didn’t push him away IMMEDIATELY and respond with a ‘what the actual fuck’ or similar”.
honestly it doesn’t even have to be any kind of official thruple/quad thing. It can just be an open relationship where you can date and/or have sex with other people. there’s lots of right ways to do it as long as everyone is on the same page. it does take a LOT of communication, though. A polyam friend of mine calls it “dating on expert mode”
I really hope they don’t end up a polycule because it’s possible and I don’t want Joyce to be rewarded for this behavior
Actually… as I and others have noted, if they form a polycule, it’ll probably go badly; Dorothy almost certainly isn’t remotely ready for it, and Joyce will probably completely misunderstand how poly relationships work (then get extremely upset at how badly she’s messing up). So, arguably, this might work out as unintentional punishment for the cheating.
This hurts my soul
Perverse Sexual Lust… meet Powerful Sexual Kindness!
They’re like the dark side and the light side of the force
Where I to travel 10 years back in time and tell myself Joyce, the lesbian, left wing liberal, trans ally, atheist, is going to break the heart of respectful, deconstructed, insecure, kind, Sara’s role model, freaking Joe… I’d probably answer myself “huh, so DoA is done and this is a new AU? Are there transformers in this one? Boy am I glad that my country doesn’t have a gay hating nutjob president and probably never ever will (Argentina)”
Slso argentinian here, i fell you so hard.
Joyce isn’t a lesbian.
To be fair, I struggle to think where character development would’ve taken the characters otherwise lol (unless it was a negative arc, but I feel like 10 years ago it was clear we weren’t getting that on a large scale thing for at least Joyce and Joe.)
I mean the breakup is sudden and hard to predict, but still lol
Every time bi-erasure happens in the comments I should get 1$ USD
You did it! You found an ethical way to get rich!
I would support you in this, but I just don’t have that much money on me right now.
It won’t happen but Joyce would benefit greatly from accepting polyamory into her heart, I think everyone involved could handle it after some learning pains
Joyce had really, really hope that Joe’s coming from an open mindset. Because if he’s going to be hurt by what comes next, this entire thing now where she’s all focusing on how hard this is for her isn’t so great.
Then again, if that’s the case, it’s not like it’s going to get any better, so whatever, say what’s on your mind.
How long is the comic buffer, by the way?
Trying to figure out if the point of view suddenly includes the TV, if we’re going to see Danny’s Switch’s most recent metamorphosis.
Switch 2 was announced back in January, so unless Willis is more than six months ahead, it should have already changed.
They’re more than six months ahead. They were a full year ahead recently, and stated some intention to rework the story they had to feature Asma more prominently sooner (since she otherwise wouldn’t have shown up again for about a year). We haven’t heard more than that, so it’s unclear if the recent updates to buffer watch were Willis altering it on purpose or the buffer’s code not being able to handle being more than a year ahead.
Either way, this is what it currently says:
BUFFER WATCH
Comics are currently drawn and uploaded through:
November 16, 2025
(It’s on this page. Search for “buffer watch”.)
*they’ve been more than six months ahead until recently
Posing a question:
Where are folks getting the idea that Dorothy is possessive from?
There are a fair few problems with Potential Polycule (none of which stop me from hoping for it), but I keep seeing this one stated like it’s textual fact, and I would love to know where that’s coming from.
I expect it’s an extrapolation from strips like https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/suggestion/
Textually, it’s pretty clear that Dorothy 1) really, really wants Joyce, 2) is jealous of Joe for getting Joyce earlier on (see link above), and 3) is viscerally horrified by the thought of losing Joyce to Joe (see the trauma flashback when they leave on their date, etc).
I don’t think it’s necessarily out of line to read that in aggregate as “possessive”, although that reading itself also kinda has to allow that Dorothy probably wouldn’t use that word.
She also bit Billie’s head off when she tried to help Joyce during the birth control incident.
I forgot about that one, too.
Oh, I remember that, but I put it in the same category as below.
Dorothy was already upset when she went to confront Jennifer there, because Jennifer had called her a bad friend, poking the same sore spot as Roz earlier; people who either don’t know Joyce at all because they’re not her friends, or who had recently removed themselves from Joyce’s friend-group, judging Dorothy for not handling a given situation as well as they assume they would have.
(Roz’s poking of this particular bear goes directly back to when Joyce melted down in Gender Studies 101 about the oppression LGBTQIA+ people face, and Roz was rubbing her nose in it, and Dorothy tried to intervene: Roz snapped at her that it was her fault Joyce hadn’t had this revelation earlier.)
But Dorothy didn’t bite off Jennifer’s head until Jennifer sarcastically said “I get it, I get it, Joyce is yours.”
And I think that, when Dorothy felt like she had NO claim on Joyce at all, that was upsetting in a way that it wouldn’t necessarily be if she felt like Joyce was as much hers as anyone’s.
I agree with most of that, but I also think the key point is “losing Joyce”. She wouldn’t be losing Joyce in this situation.
(I’m also personally curious to see Dorothy interact with Joe in the future. I want to know how much of her recent antipathy was just jealousy she was struggling to process. She’s SAID she resented being in his orbit while she was dating Danny, but she seemed more exasperated when they interacted post-breakup than like someone who had really built up a lot of resentment.
It’s also been 15 years, so it’s possible that Willis decided to later recontextualize that exasperation into more serious distaste that Dorothy was just masking…
…but it’s also possible that the intensity of her dislike for Joe more recently was absolutely her brain being kind of on fire from feeling jealousy and struggling to rationalize it into something else, like sincere concern for Joyce’s safety…
…which then combined very BADLY with all of her latent legitimate concern for Joyce’s safety and metastasized into the PTSD flash we saw!)
I think it is likely more accurate that she is viscerally terrified by the thought of losing Joyce period, which is an unstated reason for not leaving for Yale that I’m not sure she entirely realized was so major a factor.
I agree with this.
I just feel like… we haven’t yet seen “Dorothy who’s now sure of what she herself is feeling AND confident that Joyce returns her feelings” be put in a position to be jealous or possessive. Except for the non-reaction she had when Joyce told her she gave Joe oral, but that could be a one-off.
Also, I was trying to think of what music should be playing over this scene and now I have to make a shittyflute cover of “The Hardest Thing” by 98 Degrees, to match what’s going on in Joyce’s brain.
tbf i DON’T think joe will be all “let’s be poly!” I think he was truly changing his perspectives and priorities. joe my sweet boy !! (i will drink his tear tho)
I agree, he values women more as people and is interested in relationships!
That doesn’t have anything to do with not being okay with a polycule, though, and his reasons for potentially not being okay with it are also unrelated.
I think most people are monogamous
Moreso monogamy is the societal standard. That doesn’t mean it’s any more natural than any other relationship formation. Plenty of folks would be poly if were more socially acceptable and they knew what it was.
If it weren’t for her ingrained assumption of monogamy, I’m pretty sure Joyce would be naturally inclined toward poly, given her clearly non-monogamous affections.
Wouldn’t stop her being bad at it, though.
That’s okay, too, because Joyce is going to be bad at relationships no matter what. 😉
That’s unclear. Some more people almost certainly would be.
But there’s deep evolutionary roots to this stuff. It’s not just our societal standard. Examples of societies without such standards are rare at best. It’s very widespread and goes back as far as we can trace in similar form at least. Pair bonding often with elite males supporting a small number of females. It’s what we see and it’s also the pattern most common among primates with roughly our degree of sexual dimorphism.
Maybe! Hard to be sure when the societal stigma is so strong that we can’t trust self-reported data on the subject. But not really relevant to whether or not Joe “truly changing his perspective and priorities” === “being unwilling to try polyamory”.
I’m picturing it more like:
Joyce reluctantly breaks up with Joe.
Joe is clearly upset, but accepts her decision.
Joyce immediately apologises upon seeing how unhappy he is and says she wishes there were a way she could be with both Joe and Dorothy.
Sierra pokes her head in and gives Joyce a quick summary of how poly relationships work (which Joyce retains only a superficial understanding of, mostly that she can have both Dorothy and Joe at once).
Why Sierra? Aside from her having been in a poly relationship, I just want her to show up more. Besides, I have an excuse for her being there: she was looking for a sock.
At this point, all i want is Joyce cloning herself. Joe deserves a Joyce and Dorothy deserves a Joyce, but i don’t think Joyce OR Dorothy OR Joe is ready for polyamory.
Pretty careless of Joe to open the door without looking through the little peephole to see who it is first
Joyce definitely has a knock.
Why?
Where?
When?
What?
How?
~15 Minutes to the next Commentgeddon.
Oh, you guys have no idea.
Oh I love the sound of that… I can hardly wait.
Well, this is already giving me secondhand anxiety indigestion so i guess it’s a bit too real