I still feel like it’s just ‘he’s too involved with his own family to see his siblings,’ although I bet the parents don’t do much to encourage him to come around with his wife.
(Of course, regardless of if Joc really noticed, that could mean that too married=won’t come because parents don’t want his wife to come and fuck that)
I wanted to clarify, I feel like Jocelyn said it either believing ‘he’s too involved with his own family to see his siblings,’ was true, or wanting not to imply more than that due to her parents being there (‘mom wouldn’t let Christi come and John cares for his wife so he didn’t come either’ wouldn’t really go well in front of Carol, especially when trying to be the least-known favourite).
I definitely think that Carol and possibly Hank would frame it similarly but ruder (and more passive aggressive- ‘John doesn’t respect me or seem to care about our family very much anymore, so I guess he isn’t coming,’ or something of that sort.
I’m not convinced of that. I think Christi not being the right type of Christian to please the Browns is more likely. After all it seems unlikely John wouldn’t have sent some pictures of the wedding to his family.
In whatever way it could work out, the idea that ALL of the Brown kids are in some significant way living in ways which run counter to their strict fundamentalist upbringing would be _extremely_ satisfying.
I’ve also got a feeling that they got married in India because that’s where her family is from. Christianity a significant minority religion in India, and there is a surprising amount of LDS as well. I think his wife being LDS would blow the Brown’s minds even more than her being of Indian descent.
My bet is on the Syrian Christian sect of Kerala. Interesting mix of ancient Christian traditions with those of their Hindu neighbours= maximum Brown eyebrow-raising.
1001 🙂 Predominantly Roman Catholic (Latin Rite), Saint Thomas Christians (East Syrian Rite / West Syrian Rite) and various denominations of Protestants. Of that ethnically Predominant Kerala, Tamil Nadu, other parts of South India, Goa, Nagaland 90%, Mizoram 87%, Meghalaya 71%, Manipur 40%, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh.
I would find it especially amusing if Christi turns out to be a Nestorian Catholic, or evn better, a Nasrani. The confusion that would cause the Browns would be epic.
Oh, I think Christi will be Christian alright. “Her” name being Christian as well. “Mom and Dad, I’ll be marrying a Christian.” “We expected no less.” “Let me explain.”
He married someone _named_ Christian. John will have the biggest surprise of all to La Familia Brown, to be topped only when he turns to Jocelyn and says, “Oh, heck, sis, I knew before you did.” — That right there is called “guessing for maximum dramatic effect” with a side of “wishful thinking.” Then Becky says “heh” while Joyce’s brain melts (and re-forms.)
Sikh of both genders are encouraged to take some martial training though as with any faith in a modern context it is now more an exception than the norm to take it to any level of expertise.
A lot of Indian cuisine is generally all the spices. Also talking about Indian cuisine is like talking about European cuisine. The food from Goa is very different from that from Mumbai or Punjab.
The local Thai place just gave up and put their usual hot-hot seasoning blend in a big shaker on the table. “Sure, we can make all our stuff taste like American Chinese food. The Thai-ness is in the shaker.”
I recently found out my favorite Chinese place actually has six levels of spices for their food instead of just three for their customers, going from “Caucasian mild” all the way to “Asian extra spicy.”
Yeah, we’ve got one that goes “Coward Mild/Medium/Hot”, “White Mild?Medium/Hot”, and “Thai Mild/Medium/Hot”. My ex-husband, who prided himself on his ability to eat things that might as well have been chemical fires (yeah, basically things that were hot more than flavorful, just for the sake of the heat) couldn’t handle Thai Mild XD I stick to Coward Hot or White Mild, because I like things bland, but not utterly tasteless 😛
Yes, I know a fellow who loves spices like woah, and he asks people to “make it super spicy, no really, do it as though you were making it for yourself”. He is happiest when his eyes are streaming with tears and his sinuses are liquifying, and the kitchen staff is sneaking peeks at him around the corner to see that yes he’s really eating it.
Indian restaurants better have spices reduced. Friends of mine bought cook books while in India, and when they invited me to eat they mentioned they were using just a quarter of the amount of spices specified – and it was still very hot.
Eating hot dishes needs practice, better start low.
O went to my favourite Indian restaurant in Vancouver with my Mum (who is Indian-born British), and ordered a curry. I told them I’d like it really hot, that I ate curries regularly, and I’d like it hot enough to make me sweat. “Hot hot hot.”
When it came it was perfect (as usual, when I ordered it that way). Mum said, “That’s ‘hot hot hot?!'” I told her to look around. We were the only Caucasians in the place. If I told them to make it super hot then I would get what I actually wanted, which was about a medium, ha ha. They tone it down (a lot) for us blondes, lol.
There’s an Indian grocery near me with a little kitchen in the back where some years ago when I bought their Vindaloo the first time, I was cautioned like 3 times that it really wasn’t for white people. They were right. It was delicious, all sorts of complex flavors under the heat, but it was too hot for me. Right at the level that I could eat it and did because the rest of it tasted so good, but it was with plenty of milk and yogurt to cut the heat and still painful. Then I kept going back for more. 🙂
Sadly, they have a new cook and the food isn’t as good. Or as hot.
Some of the stag crowds like it as hot as possible. Hence some Manchester indian restaurants do a vindaloo or tindaloo. Curry mile in Manchester (I think) is an an interesting experience being a mile of curry houses.
I get hiccups from too much chilli powder in one dish.
When they ask how spicy I like things I say ‘I eat Sri Lankan level spicy ‘ and never have an issue getting my five alarm goodness (It works here because there’s a large Tamil diaspora and Sri Lanka is where vindaloo originates)
Once visited an Anglo college friend in Phoenix; joined him at a house painting thing at a friend of his. Friends friend was American Born Mexican, though his mom seemed not to speak any English. Mom and sisters made an amazing spread of food for all the guys who’d spent the day painting. Our host slathered the sauce on his tamale and dug in with gusti. My blond friend Dan copied. I put one drop on mine as a test. That drop burned thru my tongue. Dan bit into his and went Looney Tunes: grabbed every beer and soda on the table, one after another, and poured them into his poor mouth.
Have you tried gulab jamun or jalaybies? Both of them I find very flavourful desserts/sweets; but the little square things I agree with you on. They look amazing but there isn’t that much to them. I love following up a curry with nice warm gulab jamun, though (little warm dumpling things in syrup).
Bland or not. The spice palate doesn’t agree with everyone. I have been sneaking up on Indian cuisine from Vietnam and Thailand, but Thai curries are as far as I can go.
Something in white-people-Thai food makes my husband extremely ill. Something else in both that and Mexican food (or possibly the same thing) makes me sniffle disgustingly.
I guess we’re going to have to make do with European-savory if we want something non-bland. Still, there’s something to be said for thickly strewing your pot of pork, bacon, cabbage, onions, and tomatoes with three different kinds of savory herbs plus pepper, and thickening the broth with a roux that has sour cream and a bit of wine vinegar beaten into it.
Joyce just got caught up in an unexpected rush of SCIENTIFIC CURIOSITY and forgot that anesthetic is appreciated for surgery, so it was a little messy.
So I Googled “Christian Ice Cream” and all I got out of it were a bunch of really shitty/hilarious/kinda-clever puns. Cherry-ty or Ten CommandMints flavour anyone?
(When I lived in Japan for part of a summer, the best thing ever – okay one of several best things ever but gimmie a break – was the sesame seed soft serve at this shop upstairs in the train station. But it’s generally true that train station food in Japan is amazing.)
Yeah! She is definitely surprised and thrilled by this reaction. She’s never even heard of a positive response, least of all from Joyce’s family; she knew that being out would show her who the jerks were, but it never occurred to her that it would also show her who the shiny supporters were, too. Yay.
What if Joceline has been out to John for a while, but isn’t ready to to tell Joyce yet? For all they know, she’s as indoctrinated and closed-minded as their mother.
Also, there’s not a deceptive bone in Joyce’s body.
Part of being in the closet(and existing, in Jocelyn’s case) is calculating the risk. Guileless Joyce living at home with Carol and that secret is a fucking huge risk, even if she was the most accepting person on the planet.
I really don’t expect him to read this or take my criticism to heart. But I figured I’d state my opinion on what happened in the comments, since that’s what they’re there for. Also, did you imply that if Willis hadn’t made the nazi joke, or if Becky was punished for making it, I’d be the only one left reading? That’s… weird and damning for this entire fan base if true lol
I implied that if Willis liked punishment as much as you, even you probably wouldn’t be reading (because you don’t need him to be you, you already have a you).
In a way, characters are already abused plenty, just most of the times in ways that are shitty and sad, rather than being called out for things they deserved and are capable of growing past. So, Becky will be abused for pages upon pages for being gay, but never for the real, human errors she makes (which I talked about at length in yesterday’s comments).
I don’t want Becky and other characters to be punished because it makes me happy when these characters are sad. But when a character does something shitty or rude and an availability for a less black and white conflict comes up, I get frustrated when the opportunity isn’t taken.
So, when becky mentions nazis at high volume in a family restaurant, and the comic rewards her (indirectly) with a high five? Color me dissatisfied with the joke. (which is a shame, because the high five is really cute! but the last comic spoiled it for me)
The comic isn’t rewarding her with a high five for the joke. Life and story is not linear like that. Jocelyne is showing her some compassion by not holding the joke against her; he probably knows that’s her defense mechanism and that she’s feeling really vulnerable right now.
What you’re seeing is not an example of Becky getting rewarded for something, it’s an example of Jocelyne being forgiving and understanding. And let’s be real: a Hitler Youth joke is in extremely poor taste, but it’s also not the worst thing she could have done ever. So she doesn’t really need to experience extensive punishment . . . besides, there’s still likely to be tension for her with John and then with Joyce’s parents again and then also when she gets back to campus and finds out she’s being evicted and there’s likely to be a little drama with her and Dina thanks to Sarah’s big mouth soooooooo cut the kid some slack, willya? She IS just a kid and they say stupid, insensitive things.
Don’t think so. It was attached to someone else’s big rant about how they hated the joke. Apparently they were from a country that was invaded by nazis, and really didn’t like the common joke that is: blonde/blue eyed people are nazis. Since this person apparently looked that way.
He said something on his Twitter page about that person having been banned before. I checked his Twitter because it had looked to me like he was just trying to silence a (queer) dissenting voice. But apparently it wasn’t what was said but who said it.
Yeah, that was a person who in the previous weeks had been super obnoxious about Carla’s gender dysphoria, rooting for Mary, and was an ongoing jerk to other people in the comments. They escaped the spam filter by changing their IP, I put them back.
I get what you’re saying here, but to me this feels like it’s part of the pattern of Becky doing something rude or inconsiderate, but we cut her slack because she’s young/just came out. This one instance is just the most egregious, so I said something. That being said I really don’t like the age argument, since I’m only a year older than Becky is now but I realize why you wouldn’t do something like that. People younger than Becky know that too. It’s a reason, kind of, just like her being nervous is a reason, but I’m not really sure if it’s a worthwhile excuse.
Since you’re trying to spin this instance into proof of Becky the constant fuck up who says awful things (and far more in excess to Joyce, who regularly says super fucked up things), what’s the other sign of this?
Like, she said a joke that hurt readers to a group of non-jewish individuals who were not at all likely to be hurt in that way by her joke. What’s the other instances of her doing something unforgivably awful to the point that it perfectly makes sense not to extend her forgiveness for her age or to view her as a dangerous character to witness as a reader?
We’ve had this conversation before, I dont really think it needs to be rehashed all over again. I stated why I didn’t like Becky, in her behavior, how the comic treats her, and how the comments treats her. You disagreed. Thats basically the long and short of it. Becky made a nazi joke. Becky did other bad things. Becky is flawed, and I dont like her.
Yeah, but see, that was a conversation focusing mostly on things like, as you said yesterday, people not calling her out on “you can be obnoxious and inconsiderate, and got jealous/manipulative around your best friend because she found another girl to be platonic friends with.”
That’s not really “I can’t trust her because she makes things on the level of nazi jokes on the regular” level.
That’s a big leap. So I presumed I missed something regarding her making comments that were hurtful to the readers like that. Maybe I didn’t.
And if I didn’t, then I’ll admit to being a bit baffled by the intensity of your response seeing as how it would be just an angry response to the notion of reading teenagers who fuck up. And that seems unlikely considering you regularly read and enjoy a comic about teenagers fucking up.
So yeah. Confused and in need of some clarification.
Not to speak for Russ, but personally I find it completely undesirable to argue a point in long bursts of comments. Especially knowing either side won’t budge. It’s not fun to type all of it. It’s not fun to read all of it. And at the end of the day it’s obvious no one’s mind’ll be changed. People will just get tired and give up trying to convince the other. At least that’s true for myself.
In one of my other comments, I stated that this is somewhat in line with the other things she’s done “rude, obnoxious, manipulation ect” but also is a step above the norm. And, to be fair, my comments here weren’t intense, so much that I made a comment, and got a flood of replies, and replied to all of them in kind.
But, for where I stand, it’s not really “I can’t trust her because she makes things on the level of nazi jokes on the regular”, but more, “I have problems with this character, and the way the narrative and comments dont like to criticize her for these things, rather than attacking her for being gay. Her willingness to make a nazi joke, nervous or not, does not change my opinion of her, but certainly reinforces the misgivings I already have.”
and @zach, that makes much more sense, considering that what was said this time really wasn’t shitty or meant to attack people, but outrage over the joke. I didn’t know that they were banned previously, so this gives a lot of context.
@Yotome, yeah, you’re not wrong, this isn’t going to many places. None of them good anyway.
@Cerb, I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from now. Sorry if It’s hard to understand sometimes, I have trouble conveying exactly what I want to say on this board since the threads often get crossed and mixed up with one another. I’m glad we can agree to disagree, since a debate over a character or a joke is fine, but I have no desire to fight you as a person.
Hello 🙂
I don’t really have anything to add to the debate (basically I love Becky, but I agree with the points you made), but I wanted to say it was nice reading you on the last two pages. You and other people made very interesting points and you guys are part of what makes this comic great.
And now I’m gonna go back a few chapters to see if you pointed out something I may have missed. Thanks Russ, I look forward to read your other comments 😀
Oh thank you so much! I’m sorry that i come across so negatively about a character you like a lot, but i’m happy that you enjoyed what each of us had to say!
I dont care if this character is offended or not, I care that real people in the comments were pissed about this joke just being thrown out there, and in the next strip the character who made it was given a high five. It’s like the universe says Becky can do no wrong, and the comments agree!
Maybe. I think nazi’s were just a punchline we weren’t meant to think about too much in the last strip and that’s that, so I dont think them ignoring the comment out of politeness was really the intent.
No, it says the people she’s with are used to Becky and don’t need to make a big deal whenever she says something’s done. Becky’s not new to them, they’ve known her for like twenty years, this is old hat for them.
Not everyone freaks out over Nazi jokes. And even if they normally would Becky’s te kind of person you just expect dumb shit to come out of her mouth so you just ignore it and move on.
Which is why I don’t like Becky, but then if I say that people try to excuse it and call me oversensitive or homophobic for… not liking Becky. It’s a shame, because she’s been in some of the best strips and had some of the funniest jokes, but strips like the last one pull me right back out of it, and make me like her even less because there’s potential there.
I used to live with a German flatmate (in a big shared flat wih four people total) and telling nazi jokes when he was in the next room was one of our primary sources of entertainment…
Do bear in mind they come from a family capable of blaming “people like Dorothy” (atheists) for the Holocaust and claiming Hitler was maybe partly Jewish in that context.
I don’t think these characters are going to freak out over a Hitler joke on some kind of principle. They could have been offended since it was directed at them, but Jocelyne at least seems to have taken it as being about Becky’s fear of being among people who might well want to kill her for being who she is and responds by reassuring her.
The stuff about the Nazi joke would have a lot more weight if it were coming from someone who hasn’t admitted that they hate Becky. Someone who hasn’t jumped on her for the tiniest little thing, acting like she should be perfect while none of the other characters have to be perfect.
You kinda ruined it by hating on her for every tiny slight, so that, when she does something that’s at least arguably shitty, you don’t have anywhere to go.
And if you don’t want to start an argument about it, why did you post in the comments section at all? The point is to discuss things with other people.
The thing people ignore is that you choose who you like or don’t like. To choose to dislike Becky–not just see her as someone with flaws, but to actually dislike her–is something I find offensive. She is not evil. She is someone going through a hard time and trying to cope.
And this applies to everyone, not just people coming out. It pisses me off when people hate on Danny or Amber or Ruth (though I have a little more sympathy for who she was before) or Walky or anyone.
I don’t understand why good people would choose to dislike good people. I get why your gut may make you not like them, but then I would see it as your responsibility to try and understand them.
But, you don’t. You dislike them. You judge them as being bad. And that bothers me.
I’m sorry that it bothers you, I really am. Unfortunately, not everyone gets along, and sometimes people dislike each other. Even good people can dislike each other, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Real people sometimes dislike other real people for nothing at all sometimes, and that’s okay, because it’s impossible to like everyone.
That being said, i try not to dislike anyone in real life, because I dont have a full scope by which to analyze them, and real people aren’t really deserving of judgment anyway (barring criminals and the like).
Becky is not real. Becky is a character, and she’s one that I happen to dislike. it doesn’t make anything I say invalid or wrong, it gives me motivation to speak at all. I dont want to fight anyone! I’m all for a healthy discussion about characters, but when it gets nasty and personal is when I want to back out.
I realize that people like Becky exist. And, if I knew someone like her, I would try my best to be more understanding due to circumstances. But she’s not real, she’s a character that’s been crafted for us to look at and think about. And I dont like her as she stands. I’ve even made it a point to say that as the comic progresses my opinion may change depending on her arc, but that’s about it.
Becky is a character in a piece of fiction. I’m sorry if my opinion on her bothers you, but it’s really not your place to tell me how to feel about her.
And I’m sorry if I came off as telling you what to think or as hating on you.
If you’ll go back and read what I said, you’ll see I never tell you what to think. I tell you why I don’t think it makes any sense. I tell you that it bothers me. But I never say that you that you are required to stop. (I do, in another post, point out that the logic you use would mean you’d have to hate other characters. But that’s not the same thing. It’s just pointing out how you seem inconsistent.)
Sure, I would like you to stop–but is there anything wrong with that? You want Willis to stop “letting Becky off,” and for people in the comments to stop ignoring the bad things Becky does. Is that you telling them how to think and act?
And I know Becky is fictional. But, to discuss her as having motivations, actions, and other such things, we have to pretend she is real. That is the only context in which “I hate Becky” or “I dislike Becky” makes sense, since you use her actions as evidence. If we don’t pretend she is real, those are just things Willis wrote.
When you actually pulled back and made it about Willis, that was a whole lot better, and I very much appreciate it. I didn’t address any of that in my comment, since that’s not what I was talking about. But I guess I should have, so I didn’t come across as attacking you.
The part I addressed is that you still have to add that part about hating Becky, and I don’t get it. I don’t get why you won’t apply the same thing you said you’d do in real life to the character while you are pretending she is real. I don’t get why you choose to hate the character rather than try to understand her–especially when the comic is going out of its way to get you to understand her. It seems like you’re setting yourself up to constantly be frustrated.
As for your claims about real real life, I disagree. At least, I do when you equate dislike and hate, as you have in your comments. A good person may not particularly like another good person, but they don’t hate or actively dislike a good person. When that happens, one or both have done something wrong–and the good thing to do is to try and work it out, not hate. Even if you continue to disagree, you can respect each other.
And there’s no way it’s okay to dislike or hate someone for “no reason at all.” That’s where bigotry starts. I have no legitimate reason to dislike this black person, but I do. It’s not remotely hard to make “liking” someone the default, and it is what people should do. There’s a reason “love your neighbor as yourself” is touted as good even outside of Christianity.
You see, those are the fundamental beliefs that bother me. They are exactly what I see in you saying you hate Becky, and exactly what I disagree with. If you would not hate Becky if she were real, then I would argue you don’t actually believe those statements.
I guess where we fundamentally disagree is in you not applying what you would to a real Becky to a fictional Becky. Especially when the comic goes out of its way to help you understand her.
I kinda see the comic as being a way to let people know about the struggles of real life people. Being able to understand Becky means being able to understand people in real life. To hate her is to not understand them.
You’re right, there is a fundamental disconnect between what i think it is to dislike someone, and what you do, and maybe that’s where we’re coming up with this issue.
First though, I’d like to say that i never said i hated Becky. I said I dont want to hate Becky, which I said because I realize that after aaaaaalll of these comments it may seem that way. I did say that I dislike her, and that’s true.
i also want to point out what I said by “no reason at all” because that got muddled. In reality, when I said no reason, I meant things like “i talk to this person. They haven’t offended me, or down anything wrong, but their attitudes and personality make me not want to be around them” because sometimes people just don’t get along. Bigotry doesn’t start at no reason at all either, because bigotry has a reason: it’s disliking or hating someone for what they are, what they cannot control (gay, black, ect.)
So there’s a fundamental difference between “I dont like Paul because he’s sometimes talks for too long and I dont like long conversations” and “I dont like Paul because he’s Chinese”
Maybe though, by your logic these tw people would talk about why person A doesn’t like Paul, and Paul would give person A more space because they’re an introvert, and then they’d like each other. That’d be nice! But that’s not what always happens.
So, down do what it means to dislike and hate. I think you put more weight onto the word dislike than I do, which is where we get the most issues. To me, if you don’t like being around some people, then you don’t like them. And everyone has people that they don’t like to be around, which is a natural thing to want. It doesn’t mean you want them to be hurt, sad, or have misfortune (though if you’ve only read some of what I wrote it sounds like I enjoy having characters suffer, untrue!).
Hatred can be those things listed above, and it’s a more active form of dislike. So that’s what those words mean to me.
I understand that this probably hasn’t swayed you or anything, but hopefully you understand where I’m coming from a bit better now.
I kind of unironically love this exchange. There’s a lot of compassion here even though there are strong feelings. And yet there is a lot attempt to explain one’s self and try to understand the other. And just a lot of good points surrounding the inadequacies of language in places.
She says the high five is for the coming out rather than the joke, so it’s neither a support nor a condemnation for the joke.
Sadly, given that they’ve all been raised in a violently anti-semitic version of Christianity (hell, let us not forget their dad’s “Hitler was partially Jewish” bullshittery), I doubt they’d be tuned in to a jewish perspective of Holocaust jokes.
Does that make it all right for the readers who were hurt? No. And I’m sorry for the comic that that happened. But I don’t think these are the people to have that sort of thing on their radar.
I know the high five was for coming out, but the juxtaposition between what she said and what happens to her is jarring. But yeah, not even an embarrassed nudge from Joyce, our main character who definitely knows nazis are bad and screaming about them in public is wrong, and who’s had aversive reactions to Becky’s shenanigans for much less. It… looks bad. To me, that basically says that nazis were a throw away joke used for funzies, and that it doesn’t really matter enough to warrant people to think about it. That sucks.
Sadly, that was probably Willis’s intent. That it was just a throwaway gag about how white and threatening Becky, Joyce, and Willis’s hometown was. And a bit of a character moment of Becky up-playing the nervous inappropriateness because she’s freaking the fuck out.
I know that doesn’t make it better, especially for those who feel hurt by it.
Didn’t defend it in the first place. Defended Becky, not the joke, though admittedly I didn’t see it as a big deal at first until those who were jewish noted how they felt about it. Even called out someone who made an insensitive comment at someone who was hurt by the joke.
I still think Becky receives a disproportionate amount of shit and that her every fuckup is treated way worse than most other characters, but I fully acknowledge this particular joke had hurtful impact and that sucks.
On the other hand, Jocelyn did quickly and efficiently change the subject. Not wanting a confrontation doesn’t mean approving, even if it may be overly passive (also, acceptance of LGBT people by her siblings might have been more important to her than worrying about terrible jokes).
Also although it is a dumb and rude and offensive joke, it isn’t really that surprising to me that it was just a throw away and that a bunch of people didn’t notice. People make bad jokes and most of the time, no one notices or cares enough to confront it. Regarding Joyce, she has had a lot of other things to focus on, and was frantically texting when Becky was talking.
I get what you’re saying, but Jocelyn noticing the issue and quickly changing the subject isn’t exactly what’s being conveyed here, at least not to me. it feels more like an oversight than anything else.
Yeah, even I wouldn’t say certainly that she was definitely doing so, only that it could be, and even if unintentional,changing the subject probably stopped further discussion.
@Marie, @Russ: I can understand the arguments that Becky’s joke is being treated as a throw away or that Jocelyn — & John? — disapprove but won’t be trolled by it Yet without asserting that its the only plausible interpretation I still like to think that Jocelyn got Becky’s joke in the same way that I did, because I grew up with people who would, both Jewish and Not. And I did not see that the people upset by Becky broke down as Jews + Allies — Notwithstanding that it took me most of the day to realize how that joke was no joke to Sig, which gave me pause.
Becky was definitely being a jerk yesterday, in that she was saying loud, hurtful things to mask that she’s scared out of her wits so she preemptively treats John and Jocelyne as potential enemies. Becky, like all people in her age group, can be an asshole sometimes, and she’s not always going to get called out for it.
Jocelyne here is just trying to convey both that she’s proud of Becky for coming out, and that she doesn’t have to be scared of her and John. She’s welcome here and she can chill out.
I guess the problem with getting a scene where Becky is called out is that Becky primarily interacts with Joyce and Dina, who think the world of her, and the main recipient of Becky’s doucheness, Dorothy, is too prone to taking the high road with things and probably does think Becky’s situation justifies some of her behaviour, if she recognizes it at all. When Becky told Billie there was no such thing as bisexuality she pretty much instantly soured on her and hasn’t really changed that, Walky said he wanted to punch her in the face when she insulted Becky, and Danny called her obnoxious after she barged into Dorothy’s room during their intently private conversation, so it’s not like everybody thinks Becky is this perfect angelic child who can do no wrong. They’re just more willing to cut her some slack because she’s in a bad situation, and that’s not gonna last forever.
And when it ends, I’ll be happy to see Becky grow more as a person like the other problematic characters are forced to (re: most of the cast.)
I dont want to hate Becky, but until the time comes where the grace period ends (idk how long it’s been real time, but it feels like a LONG TIME) I’ll be bothered. Afterwards? Possibly much less bothered!
Then don’t. If you don’t want to hate her, then don’t. When you actively choose to do so–especially if you tell people about it (which means you aren’t trying to stop)–it becomes hard to believe that you don’t enjoy hating her.
I’m not cutting Becky any slack. I’m simply looking to see if she’s actively trying to hurt people. And she’s not. I therefore have no legitimate reason to hate her.
There’s a huge, huge, HUGE difference between finding what she says to be insensitive and hating her or even disliking her.
If we go this route, then you have to hate Joyce, Sal, Sarah, Amber, Walky, Danny, Ethan, etc. About the only sensitive person in the comic is Dorothy.
I have an uncle who just says what’s on his mind. And he’s not too bright. He’ll say things that bug the crap out of me. But I don’t hate him. He means well. And there’s not an ounce of hate in his whole body.
I note that you don’t seem to hate Willis, and yet he’s responsible for not only what Becky says, but how others in the comic react. Yet you are okay with just focusing on the specifics there, instead of hating on the person.
Hell, I’d argue that the joke is actually worse outside the comic than in it. In the comic, there’s no reason to think that there’s anyone present who would be particularly hurt. But the real world, there are people from whom the comparison is bad.
I’d actually cut you more slack for being mad at Willis than being so mad that you hate Becky.
Okay, no. No no no no nooooooooooo. Stop trying to control how I feel about a character because you disagree. I dont need to hate any of the other characters for any reason other than my own personal take on them, I dont need to hate Willis for a piece of work her created, and I dont need more slack.
I disagree with the choices he makes with Becky, and thus I dont like Becky. Willis is a real human being that makes a lot of other work that I do enjoy, so I read his comic. It doesn’t make him perfect or always right, (neither am I or anyone else, naturally) so there will be aspects, characters and strips that I dont like.
I’m sorry you disagree, and it’s clear that my opinion has upset you, but I am under no obligation to like any character or any person just because other people do.
@Cerberus: since this will post somewhere below, its Re the Anti-Semitism of the Brown Parents brand of Christianity, because I don’t know about that and that might interfere with my interpretations of whats going on here and I’m curious besides. EG #1 Carol/Joyce/Hank : Atheists Like Dorothy brought us Hitler / Dorothy is Jewish, Partly (Mischling? Nuremberg Laws Jewish?) / Hitler was “part Jewish” so she IS Hitler — I laughed at this as a mare’s nest of ignorance & confused thinking. But I’m gathering that it’s not something to laugh off?
Well, it is a mare’s nest of ignorance, but it’s also a lot of the viewpoints of at least the brand of Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist Rapturist Chrsitianity I grew up surrounded by. Hitler was sold as someone who was half-Jewish and atheist and whose greatest negative affects were against Christians, or at least the negative affects most worth paying attention to.
This worldview had bizarre views of Jewish people and Israel. It was important to love Israel and support it, not out of love of Jewish people in it, but rather because Israel needs to expand its borders to meet “prophecy” and thus trigger the end of the world.
Once this happens, a set number of Jews will convert to Christianity thus becoming “perfected”, while the rest devolve into their “inherent natures” including their blood lust for murdering Christian babies and the like (the whole blood libel thing).
Additionally, a lot of the worldview is very entwined with “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” style conspiracy theories, leading to a weird state of affairs, where they cheer Israel’s leaders at the pulpit while simultaneously selling notions of a jewish-controlled media secretly paving the way for the Antichrist. And it’s the reason for the popularization of the words “liberal” or “international bankers” to serve as dog-whistles for Jewish (see all the conservative Christians complaining about the “liberal media” or cries about how “international bankers” are trying to make the country Marxist and whatnot).
Its’… not quite at the level of outright murder, but Joyce believes in the Rapture. A pretty commonly talked about, and JOYOUSLY talked about, part of the rapture, is the death of the JEws. Some token number (I think a million) are ‘prophesied’ to convert, and the rest will die under satan’s yoke then burn in hell for eternity, as they should (For any of a number of bullshit claims). It’s completely disrespectful, and their various brands of prophecy are why they donate heavily to the construction of a Third Temple (See, we can’t have the end times without one). AFAIK, the jewish people who are the targets of this tend to just politely ignore the real motives, but they’re perfectly well aware of them. It’s just that the end times is, you know, not happening.
But it /is/ still anti-semitic – it’s viewing the Jewish people as nothing but a vehicle for the end times, and ultimately viewing any who holds onto their religious heritage as worthy of death for that (To be fair, this is true of EVERYONE who isn’t the right form of Real, True, Christian, but also to be fair, that can also feed into existing discrimination besides that too). There is a long fucking history of especially Christians saying or believing this shit, and acting on it. They don’t have enough power, so evangelicals are RELATIVELY harmless compared to, yanno, the nazis, but that’s a high bar. They can still absolutely be titanic assholes.
Yeah, the Rapture stuff is completely fucked up. Though as you say, it also applies to all non-Christians, not just Jews. All the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and all the other smaller religions as well as the atheists and all of the other Christians who don’t quite qualify according to whoever’s talking about it.
The Jews do have a specific place in the theory though, which does point it more at them. This also lies behind a lot of evangelical support for Israel in general, not just the Third Temple. Israel needs to exist for the war that’s described in Revelations. Well that and they tend to hate Muslims more.
Of course, in a way, sudden nature of it and the effects on global politics aside, the Rapture really isn’t any worse than the more mainstream “Only Christians go to heaven, everyone else goes to hell and eternal torture.”
It’s all about being pro-Israel, but viewing actual jews like either covert secret enemies trying to “ruin” your country or as useful pawns who will either be converted or slaughtered when the Rapture comes.
The best part of it all? It isn’t anywhere in the Christian scriptures. The whole thing comes from a questionable translation of a single line in one of the epistles about Christians ‘meeting God in the air’ after death – and IIRC, the passage was not discussing the End Times, just the deaths of individuals, and used a lot of other allegorical language throughout.
There’s a line in Matthew that’s usually claimed as well. The doctrine only really dates to the 19th century as well, with some development in the 18th.
OTOH a lot of Christian theology is only loosely derived from the Bible. I’ve often wondered what you’d get if you could rerun the experiment – let Christianity develop again from its roots and see how different the results would be.
Kind of a thought experiment, since you couldn’t actually do it, but give the Bible to multiple different isolated groups with no prior knowledge of Christianity. Check back in a couple hundred years. See if there’s any resemblance to our current understanding or to each other.
I was never taught that version of the Rapture. Due to God’s covenant, (and God’s word can never be broken) Jesus will come back and the Jewish people will be saved. When they see him come back, they will embrace him.
Before this, they’ll have a hard life, hiding in caves and not taking the Mark. But it’s only seven years, and they’ll survive. And when they finally see their Messiah doing what their Messiah is supposed to do, they will accept Him.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking one version of the Rapture is the only one. Or even the more common one.
p. sure that being the centerpiece of Left Behind makes it the most common by default. This notwithstanding that there’s a lot of basically identical ones to it, from the perspective of people who don’t care about minor differences in order.
Also, fyi: The version you’re dictating is, in many ways, not really /better/. “Messiah” is a doctrine that was INVENTED by jewish people who set what orthodoxy would /be/. They know what it means better than you. Iesos failed the relevant definition of a messiah – he didn’t drive the Romans from Israel. They aren’t going to convert when they ‘finally see their messiah doing what the messiah was supposed to do’. They /already/ run Israel.
@Cerberus, @Rutee, @the jeff — is there a way to make an emoji for being utterly gob smacked? And is it known that the Brown’s and Becky come from this particular brand of FUBAR millieu?
I would have thought that folks should have “Christian pity” (is that it?) For those doomed for the sulfurous pit …. but I gather, notsomuch?
Seems kind of … mean? Hypocritical? Conspiratorial? To egg Israel on to Build the Third Temple if it’s just so they’ll end up in the pit.
I have long been confident that I don’t have a ticket for The Rapture (though I have read that Calvin said that God could save even me if God has chosen to do so), and I was attracted to this thing I read about whereby non-Rapture-worthy wretches sign up to take care of the dogs and cats of those who will ascend, because the pooches and cats have to remain because they don’t have souls, or something like that, even though I’ve known plenty of dogs and cats I’d rather spend eternity with over some of the people I’ve known.
I’m dribbling now because …
In theory, by doctrine, they should have pity for those so doomed. Said pity often turns into attempts to convert them. In the worst cases in the past, it’s turned to forced conversion – because beatings and torture are still better for the person involved if it saves them from Hell.
Even beyond that though, from their point of view it really will be a glorious day. The end of suffering and tribulation on earth. Sure, those not saved will be swept into Hell, but they’re going there anyway. Regrettable, but necessary for the greater good.
Me? I’m an atheist. If they’re right, whether the Rapture happens in my lifetime or not, I’m still going to Hell.
So, can’t make Eternal Paradise for The Few without Roasting the Many for Eternity. I’d ask why, but I suppose that the answer is “ineffability”? Maybe that’s a way of dealing with the problem of the Universe looking like it was designed by an x-path. My grandfather, after his experience as a rifleman in battles in which young men slaughtered each other by the tens of thousands AND coming back to his wfe and 3 young children and other family and friends massacred and his village destroyed said that he didn’t care if God existed or not: he figured not, but if God does exist AND allowed that kind of stuff, he didn’t want anything to do with G. I spose he failed The Test? Irony is that when he died I was still a kid and prayed every night for months that he was in Heaven with God and was Happy at last (no one’d taught me any prayers, I sort of made up my own from what I’d picked up on tv). I do still miss him. And, dang, I’ve made myself cry again….
not everyone feels the same way about nazi jokes as you do, sadly, which is why jocelyn isnt mad at becky and probably thought the joke was mildly funny even. in my country, nazi jokes are fun and if you dont think one of the jokes are fun you just ignore the joke. so, in this comic that is supposed to represent more or less real life, you want becky to trip and hit her head for making a joke that you personally didnt enjoy? everyone who ever does something that you think is wrong (even if it might not be) should be punished? thats a real scary way of thinking and ill stay away from you now
@skdk, actually, I asked where you are because I’m genuinely interested in a place/culture where Nazi jokes are apppr r cited or ignored, without any negative attitude. As to all those countries being pretty similar, a Norwegian guy once told me that Swedes are …hm; I’ll stop there for the sake of дружба народов.
You… clearly didn’t read everything i wrote, since someone else made a very similar point above and I talked about what I actually want out of Becky and the comic at large. It’s understandable, since there’s a lot to read and it’s all over this little thread-thing, but don’t try to paint me as some monster because you didn’t bother to understand my point.
It doesn’t feel very nice, does it? But it’s exactly what you do to Becky. You paint her as horrible because you don’t try to understand her.
The way you feel is the way I feel when I see people shitting on Becky. Granted, it’s vicarious, since I’m not Becky and Becky isn’t real. But it’s still the same feeling.
And I’m not alone. I can tell that at least Cerberus feels the same way. And I wouldn’t put it past the other people, either.
I’ve wanted to actually say this sort of thing before, but I hold off because I don’t actually hate you, and I’m not sure that making the point is worth it.
But now that someone else has said it, maybe you can get it.
If it’s just a comic, then he doesn’t have a right to be upset about the Nazi comment, now does he? But it’s not. It has something to do with the real world.
This type of apologia is just so stupid. We talk about these characters as if they are real. It’s the whole point of being able to discuss anything at all.
The whole topic is premised on the idea that we are pretending these are real people. You don’t get to say “It’s just cartoon” as a cop out. Because that could be used anywhere.
There is, perhaps, a crucial difference between a real person taking issue with something said by a cartoon character, and getting mad at a real person for not liking a cartoon character.
Um trlkly, please don’t do that, especially not on my behalf. Russ is not obligated to like Becky nor should he be attacked for that.
I do firmly believe that Becky is consistently given less slack than other similar characters, but that doesn’t mean everyone criticizing her behavior is going to be some asshole whining about $20 haircuts and “loud coming outs”.
I get the frustration. Believe me, I do, but don’t be a douche.
In case that isn’t clear: I don’t want to say that to you (PLURAL) because I don’t hate any of you, and thus the claim is untrue. But I’ve wanted to say it to make a point about how hurtful it is.
I’m not singling you out, and I don’t secretly think you or anyone are a horrible person. Hell, until you said that you regularly talk about hating Becky, I didn’t even know you did: I don’t go to any extra effort to remember names on forums.
I’ve replied to you in two other areas, so now we’re going to sound repetitious because of the time lapse and the way the comments are formatted. But yeah, my response to what you’re saying are above. Sorry if they sound aggressive, I’m trying my best not to fight you personally because I’m sure you’re very nice.
Yeah, Becky has gotten way more open-minded since rejecting a lot of how she was raised, but she was still probably raised with the “trans people molesting children in bathrooms” junk.
Also why the trans rights bill up here in the North was killed, after a clause was inserted that basically made the bill do the opposite of the intention (THANKS DONALD PLETT for values of “thanks” = “fuck you”). It would’ve prohibited trans people from using the bathroom associated with their gender and explicitly refused them protection from discrimination in bathrooms, same-gender housing, prisons, and gyms among a few other things. Y’know, the places the bill was written for because they’re the most dangerous for trans folk.
I read an article linked here, raged for a bit, and had mostly forgotten about it by now. I did notice the “privacy of bathrooms” excuse but assumed the implication was that a straight person might pretend to be trans just so they could go ogle people in the other gender’s room.
CONTENT WARNING: DEPICTIONS AND LINKS TO TRANSPHOBIA
Nope, implication was that “straight men” will “pretend to be trans women” in order to access good ol boys’s wives and daughters while they aren’t around to protect them. It’s part of an all-court demonization press.
I think the implication is that certain… people… think that trans people are actually cisgender people indulging in an elaborate ruse so they can ogle and/or assault folks in the “other” bathroom.
This, of course, is nonsense they came up with to justify treating trans folks like dirt. Which is pure asshattery.
A lot of people just can’t get their heads around the idea that other peoples’ minds are fundamentally different from theirs, not just like theirs with the dials on different settings.
Well, yeah, everyone knows that it’s just so hard to find pictures of naked people in this day and age…
But yeah, it’s a convenient demonization to justify targeting us as the next scapegoat group to hate for the anti-gay crowd to keep them from moving on. Basically a new target to obsess about for the Toedads and Carols of the world.
Question: do the malignantnutters believe that Trans people are all faking or that non-Trans will masquerade as Trans so that they can walk into bathrooms and then break down the doors to the stalls or … or … or…does not compute, eeally. Is there a good term for people who obsess over things like this?
Near as I can tell, that they’re all some weird kind of perverts and who knows what perverts will get up to.
Much like homosexuality is a perverted choice. A sin and a temptation to resist.
In the view of the people making these laws, trans people are all deluded liars who are an extreme form of “pervert” beyond even the “evils” of homosexuality. As such, all manner of perversion is welcome to these evil-doers. So, all of us are lying men just trying to get the access of the wrong bathroom and since there is no good reason for that in their eyes, it must be because we’re trying to access something in there, i.e. little girls. When we’re not doing that, we’re trying to trick straight men into “becoming gay”.
This is patently bullshit, but that’s what’s being sold at a national level.
And the worst part about it is that there’s a number of individuals who’ve served as gatekeepers for transitioning who’ve lent “scientific” credence for these worldviews, selling for instance a model of “transsexuality” that argues all trans people (i.e. all trans women, because trans men and non-binary get frequently treated as non-existent in these bigoted worldviews) are either “transsexuals” (i.e. femme gay men trying to escape homophobia and thus make it easier to have sex with straight men (because there’s not a staggering amount of trans women murdered every year out of straight fears of trans women sexually existing)) or “autogynephiles” (i.e. straight men who are just so obsessed with vaginas that they fetishize being women in order to act out their “sick fantasies” and “trick” poor assuming lesbians into sleeping with penises.
Hell, one of the “researchers” peddling that slop of shit has been extensively cited by the Family Research Council in a paean to state legislatures to pass more bathroom bills while also nearly getting nominated for a Lambda specifically on the merit of their “work regarding the trans community”.
The ignorance is deep and scary and forms the sort of stuff Jocelyne is scared of coming out to and that made Carla so snarky and separated from everyone else.
🙁
I am … having a hard time thinking of what to say other than “I have been EXTREMELY sheltered/privileged.”
(And maybe that if such people had an ounce of logic between them they’d realize that no one would CHOOSE to be Trans in a society cursed by the likes of them if that wasn’t just who/how they are — except that perhaps that sounds as if I mean that Trans folk would/should choose to be Notso if they could choose, which isn’t what I mean, notwithstanding that its not some kind of “lifestyle” choice anyway, because even if gender (or orientation) were a choice, how is it any of their business anyway?)
I’m hoping that they learned about trans people in a positive way while they were learning about bi people (depending if they were just looking at sexualities or if it was general LGBT exploration), so even if she doesn’t get it she’ll be like ‘okay, I know that’s a thing.’ (of course it will still probably be very painful if Becky gets it because Joyce still won’t)
Honestly, even with an Actual Lesbian(tm) teaching the course, I would be startled if they had much information on trans people. If they had information current to the last fifteen years I would have to blame the fact that this is fiction, because there’s no way in hell that would happen in real life.
Trans stuff beyond the very, very basics- and sometimes not even that- doesn’t tend to get disseminated as part of LGBT stuff. There’s not even much point getting into the reasons. You basically have to go explicitly looking for it.
The first time I ever heard of it in any significant capacity (beyond extremely shameful jokes)? That one time Linkara mentioned it in an opening credits gag.
That opening credit gag was literally the first time in my life I heard a joke by a cis man about trans issues that didn’t treat trans identity as the butt of the joke.
I’m aware (and I’m also very aware of the amount of LGB that are transphobic), but I meant because they were freely googling and probably came across various terms, as well as things like the phrase LGBT in general, and thusly looking up the basics on trans identities and at the very least getting that they are a real thing.
(also, because it may be one point of confusion, ‘they’ both here and in my original reply was supposed to be Becky and Dina, when they were learning on their own and discovered that ‘apparently liking both is a thing’)
Don’t ever eat shepherd’s pie, then. 😉 But seriously, maybe try mixing the peas in with the mashed potatoes (and whatever else’s on your plate) next time, even if only for a mouthful. “Dog’s dinner” (as my mum used to call it when we did that as kids) is awesome.
Cerberus, you seem to be the goto here for this type of info. Is there any circumstance where one could refer to Joycelyn as Joyce’s brother? Like a past tense thing?
My personal stance is no, as she was a girl back in the past, she just wasn’t fully aware yet. Most of the other trans people I’ve personally encountered do much the same.
OK, I did this a few days back, but it was very late and the new comic then came up, so everyone promptly started discussing that instead:
Cerberus, as the Emperor of the Internet, I stand in awe of you. You do not have reason to —you should in fact have several reasons -not- to— have to actively explain these issues to us over and over again. True, I do like to get my information from talking to other people instead of googling it (for one thing, learning by discussion means you retain the information better). And yes, I’m normally all for the principle of XKCD’s strip Ten Thousand. It is a good principle in general.
HOWEVER, I also realize that it is -not- your job to repeatedly having to educate us on transsexuality, asexuality, the differences between -sexual and -romantic, and other related issues. We are and should be capable of finding decent resources out there (my personal go-to is Robot Hugs), and I can only hope that most of come across as genuinely curious and ignorant (which in itself is not a bad thing, see above-linked XKCD), rather than already making judgements. You go above and beyond over and over and over.
And as such, it is my pleasure and honour as the Emperor of the Internet to appoint you as Ambassador of Understanding Humans. Either meaning works, so that makes you twice the ambassador.
With this post comes the Staff of Understanding, which forces everyone in a 30-foot radius to make a saving throw against their Wisdom score, with as +5 bonus. If they -make it, they will realize that hey, maybe it’s a good idea to acknowledge that we are all different, and that the one big sin is when we start thinking of and treating other people as things.
And if they fail it… Well, it’s also an indestructible +6 staff made of heavy oak.
Ah, damnit, not again. I’ve already done my Earth shift!
Emperor-
It’s okay. Like, I’m really glad you recognize it’s not my job to educate people on stuff like this, but I actually do enjoy it more times than not and I’m pretty used to being a lot of people’s first experiences with this kind of stuff.
And this community has been really chill about a lot of stuff and is usually not being all “weirdo, justify your humanity” about it, which is nice, but rather more like “hey, guy who studies Bio, can you help us with this Bio question” which is definitely happily novel. So, yeah.
It seemed like too open-ended a question for a search engine to give a proper, simple answer. Asking someone, whom from what I’ve read, is experience in dealing with these questions (for various reasons which I won’t state because I’m afraid I’ll just be chewing on shoe leather without realizing it) seem logical to me. Sorry if I’ve offended anyone.
Oh no, you’ve not offended anyone either. Trust me on that.
All of this was simply about giving proper credits and to acknowledge how Cerberus has always been so willing to answer honest questions like yours, and to teach us about these things in an open dialogue. As I said, people talking to each other is a great way of learning things after all. Especially when the things we are talking about are people.
My whole little over-the-top “ceremony” thing merely had this particular point: That Cerberus (and others too, such as ischemgeek) doing all of this is not something we should take for granted. We are extremely fortunate to have this little comment community here, where we ignorant people* can ask these questions, and where those with the knowledge feel safe enough to answer them like they do. That deserves the imperial equivalent of a high five, don’t you agree?
*To further clarify, I generally don’t use “ignorant” as an insult or synonym for “stupid”, but simply as saying “currently lacking knowledge about this particular subject”.
Sounds about right. I have difficulty enough with social cues is person where there’s more data to have, than just text online. Stupid Autism makes it hard enough on me, and with having a lack of info on interacting with anything that’s not white cis-straight male, I fear offending anyone due to said ignorance.
Okay, guys, seriously. We may need to tone down the Nazi stuff just a bit. I realize it’s all in good fun, but some people experienced real tragedy as a result of these events. My own great-grandfather was killed at Auschwitz…
And then there’s this: <a href=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU]Are we the baddies?
The key to joking about anything horrible is to aim at the villains, not the victims.
That is a distinct possibility, so if we accept that then we’ve got Jonathan who has married outside his religion; after less than six weeks exposure to the “wicked outside world” of IU Joyce herself has stood up to her parents over atheistic and lesbian friends; and while they do not yet know it, Joshua/Jocelyne is the sister Joyce never knew she had. Everything the parents have stood for and tried to install in their offspring has, to their way of thinking, been kicked aside.
He’ll turn out to be a member of some sect even Ross would think are dangerous extremists. The kind that are building a giant bunker in an isolated part of Nevada or the Rockies and stocking it with enough weapons to equip a Central American army.
My money is on “generally irreverent.” I know it’s a long shot, but they can’t all be spectacular disappointments, one of them’s gotta be just a general embarrassment.
There’s a pretty big Christian community in India, mostly concentrated in Kerala. The fact that John’s wife is named ‘Christi’ is an indicator that she’s Christian; if she was Hindu she’d likely have a Sanskrit name. Likewise, if she was Muslim her name would probably be of Arabic/Farsi/Turkish origin.
Yeah.. My Jewish aunt is named Tina, which derives from Christina. Sometimes people give their kids names without necessarily thinking through the implications.
She really hates it when people point that out, though.
I highly doubt that Joyce’s parents would still be on speaking terms with John if they hadn’t met his wife, and even more so if she wasn’t a Christian. For an evangelical Christian of the Brown persuasion, marrying outside of your faith is akin to losing it, which is worse than being gay. They probably aren’t happy that she isn’t white, and might be afraid of how charismatic she is, but if she’s anything like the Indian Christians I know they won’t have the slightest chance of claiming she isn’t Christian.
Thank you and najaru for the information, now I’m thinking that it might be because he’s letting Christi do something other than be a good love slave I mean housewife, ‘scuse that Freudian slip. If that comment about her having “another project coming up” is an indication of independent work and not pregnancy.
And here we get an indication that John may have some secrets of his own floating around. Joyce not meeting her sister in law might be because John is worried about his parents meeting her.
So does anyone else wonder if A) Christi might be Indian and if so, B) what exactly the Brown parents (and by parents I mean mom) might have made of that?
She could very well be both Christian and Indian, in which case Joyce’s parents may not have had a problem with it? IDK. There’s also a relatively large missionary presence in India, so it’s possible ‘Christi’ was doing that sort of work when they met – although the Christian missionaries in India are mostly Catholic.
My idea is that Christi is the Right Kind Of Christian but also of South Asian ancestry, and that the family stress is due to having to act like that’s a good thing, and that race doesn’t matter.
They might not have a problem with it, but they’d probably be obnoxious with trying way too hard to be accepting to the point that they just alienate her. Carol IS the mom who said, “You have a black friend! I can’t wait to tell everyone in the street that my daughter’s not racist!”
Is being annoyingly picky a symptom of being the youngest child? My youngest sister would also die in India, or outside of anywhere but a Friendly’s kids menu.
Maybe it’s less of picky being common for youngest siblings and more of older siblings being more encouraged to grow out of it.
I know that when I was a kid there were several moments when I felt like I was showing myself to be more mature than my younger brother by trying food he wouldn’t touch. Since the youngest siblings have no one to distinguish themselves from, they have less incentive to grow out of it.
That’s just my wild guess, though. Though now that I think about it I did notice that my brother became much less picky when he started dating. I think there may be something to the idea of expressing maturity through giving up picky eating.
Some people just can’t process spicy foods. I grew up in a family that found green bell-peppers and the flavorless kind of paprika to hot to handle. When I discovered hot-sauces, I’m not kidding, they left out newspaper clippings to warn me how I was going to go “tongue deaf” (never have properly functioning tastebuds) if I kept going. That’s right: A two-shakes of Cholula intervention.
my mom was not super imaginative when it came to spices in cooking (even chili, lol), so i grew up kind of leery of even taco bell levels of “hot” and “spicy.” it took a few accidents over the years (like once my friends went on a filiberto’s run, and at some stage in the ordering process my request for a large side of rice was misheard as a large sprite, so a friend gave me his extra arizona burrito and from that day on i’ve been a convert to the church of what i fondly call “dive mexican.” mmmmmm filiberto’s.) but i’ve grown to appreciate more than “the natural flavor” of food.
that being said, joyce wouldn’t necessarily starve in india, she’d just probably live off of naan and the plainest rice she could find.
I went out for a curry with a friend in college, in an exceedingly white-bread Canadian town, and when they asked how hot I wanted it, I explained that I didn’t know how they scaled it, but that I was used to eating curries and wanted one hot enough to make me sweat.
When it arrived, to my very great disappointment, if I tried very hard, I could juuuust taste that they’d used curry in the sauce. It was awful.
So I gave some to my friend to try, and she did the whole
OMG! HOT!!” thing, waving her hands around and bouncing in her seat, while I watched in bafflement. Ends up that her parents just didn’t use spices in their cooking. Like, at all. Like, when they made mashed potatoes, they boiled potatoes and mashed them. No butter. No cream. No pepper.
No SALT.
Laaaame. And a gross disservice to all the amazing food from so many different cultures we are lucky enough to have access to.
I’m not sure that it’s the spicy that’s a problem for her, it’s that things are mixed together. If it was all presented as neat little OCD-ish mounds on a plate…
I am the youngest of three, and was a very picky eater as a child. Which gives me problems to this day because of how my mother impressed upon me that at someone else’s house you either take what they offer or go hungry.
Not if they’re a military brat. Getting “exposed” to a variety of cultures and cuisines is part and parcel of growing up that way. I can now eat just about anything that doesn’t run away fast enough.
I’m a youngest child and I might die in India. Though my dad makes curry from a recipe book I bought from an Indian woman and I can handle that. Anyway, I’m mostly picky due to… Personal issues. A lot of textures of food make it hard to feel comfortable eating them (onions of a certain thickness, watermelon, most fruits actually), and I’m not that adventurous with spices usually. I’m getting better with some help from external forces.
I’m just kind of surprised that if John’s really *that* much older than Joyce that he’s only been married for a year. I bet that was a big source of contention between him and their parents. “When are you going to settle down and have some kids?”-type shit.
Yeah, if we assume he’s 26 or 27, since Mr. Brown mentioned John starting grade school 20 years ago, there might be some friction over him not having gotten married say 5 years ago, right after he graduated college.
I assumed he was in his thirties and that he had over a decade on Joyce. It would explain why Joyce was so uncertain about him, he would have been out of the house for most her life.
According to one of the Jocelyne Patreon bonus strips, John was in high school when Carol was pregnant with Joyce, so it’s probably at least a 15 year difference.
Then John has definitely gotten married at a age where his parents would have expected him to already been married for a decade and had several children.
Actually in India, the most popular type of ice-cream is kulfi, and kulfi is not soft at all, it is hard mainly because normal ice-cream ESPECIALLY soft-serve wouldn’t last 30 seconds under an Indian summer while kulfi can handle those same conditions pretty well.
I’m surprised they don’t already advertise kulfi as “The ice-cream that melts in your mouth not in your cone”.
most people in the comments section: OH BOY I CANT WAIT FOR JOCELYN TO COME OUT” “IM SO EXCITED” Me: WHO HAS JOYCE BEEN TEXTING THIS WHOLE TIME?????????
The family name was originally Von Braun but Doc’s father changed the name after the first world war…
You know, this recent arc makes me wonder why there are no transgendered Transformers — I mean seriously, this stuff writes itself! Get with it Hasbro!
Because then they might lose a chunk of ther fanbase as parents like Carol prohibit their kids from having anything to do with Transformers? There’s probably already some who do just because it starts with ‘trans.’
Depends on how you do it. Since they’re robots with swappable bodies you could have some switch genders temporarily, while waiting for an appropriate one to be built. The fatc that that would make the character trans would likely slip by a lot of people for a while.
Didn’t she fall in love-Lust when the host of the joined Trill was male and couldn’t deal it when the symbiant transferred to a female host, notwithstanding that the Symbiant-New-Host wanted to continue/pursue a relationship. … or so I’ve heard?
I’m reminded that there was a story years ago where they explained that Arcee was the only female Transformer ever because she had traumatic gender reassignment surgery to include the concept of gender into the species, whereupon she was driven mad and became a violent psychopath.
I’m guessing we don’t talk about that one anymore.
That last panel!! Oh no, my baby :c I suddenly understand the disarming Brown girls big blue eyes deal people have mentioned. I want to just hug Jocelyne forever and ever.
Also, Becky totally figured it out, right? For all we know she may not even know what being trans is, but she knows something’s up.
She knows allies are a thing but has yet to encounter an ally who celebrates your being out. And there’s a reason for it: Allies don’t do that, IME. They go all *flowery words* about how much they appreciate you trusting them and etc if they’re sentimental and supportive, or “Okay, cool. Want a cheeto?” if they’re not sentimental but are supportive, or kind of react like Joyce did if they’re homophobic but care about you and want to support you. And if they’ve never had an out queer friend but want to be supportive, expect to get treated like a walking museum of queer for a while.
(and if you’re same gender with them and are coming out to them as non-straight they always always always assume you’re coming out to them because you have a crush on them and you get the pre-emptive, “Oh, well, I’m not gay but…” before the above reactions. And if you’re a woman and coming out as bi to a dude, odds are about 50/50 you’ll get propositioned for a threesome IME. Eeeven though bi =/= poly.)
What allies don’t ever do, even if they’re supportive, is go all *queer fist bump* with you (or in this case more like *queer high five*). They just don’t. Ever, IME. Every “straight” “cis” person I’ve ever come out to who reacted that way came out themself a year or two later.
I’ve had two good ally experiences and 4 really bad ones. Gay male
The two good ones: Straight best friend actually did go all fist bump after the initial point I was outed. Other straight friend is my reasonable political discussion guy for when my parents are being…. Shoutiest wins the argument.
Trigger warning I think? I’m new to that part of these deals
Four bad ones: Told I need to be castrated, told I don’t count as a man, told that they “don’t agree with it but didn’t have any lost respect for me,” and told that even though I’m gay, I can’t be raped by a woman, because if I’m gay I wouldn’t get it up no matter what.
@Ischemgeek: you might have just changed the universe by talking about this? Might now be commenters/readers who you’ve psyched up to try a fist bump/high five?
This was a very interesting thing to read. I have yet to experience someone outing themselves to me, but I thought that a nice, short, matter-of-factly positive acknowledgment would be the way to go if f.ex. one or both of my stepsons declare that they are gay, or is in fact my step-daughter, etc. I thought it would be best by reacting to it like the perfectly normal thing this is, the same way one reacts to being told that one likes cheetos*.
But I guess that this is… Well, I wouldn’t call it bad per se. But it still might feel like a risk to them to actually say something like that to me, and as such, probably deserves a more positive response, like a high five.
Now, they might initiate it in a completely matter-of-factly way to begin with. Like, “Hey dad, I like boys, what’s for dinner?”, but even then, it might very well be a faked matter-of-factness hiding a nervousness beneath. So yeah, a high five is probably the best option.
*On a side note, one thing I miss in USA are good cheezy puffs. Because apparently nobody gave USA the memo that you can use other cheese flavours than cheddar for cheezy puff-style snacks. And cheddar sucks.
Actually, I genuinely don’t mind the “Oh, cool. Want a cheeto?” type of reaction. More my point was that straight ppl don’t understand the urge to celebrate coming out the way queer people do. 🙂
Question: is someone an “Ally” to someone who was a friend before the Outcoming and [just?] continue in that relationship? Well, like Joyce & Becky, I suppose. And Ethan? Is Joyce their Ally as well as their friend or is ally a more impersonal, group level relationship?
Ally, like goodness (and for that matter, adulting ) in general, isn’t really something you can claim that you are. It’s rather something you -do-, and that you have to keep on doing. (As an aside, if more people remembered that goodness isn’t something you are, I think things would be slightly better)
And as such, I think it’s safe to assume that you will probably do different ally actions depending on who you’re supporting. A friend can probably expect a more personal level of allying than acquaintances and strangers.
For a hypothetical DoA example: While Joyce might now allow an acquaintance lesbian sleep on the floor of her dorm room, only Becky gets to stay in the bed with her.
The beat panel makes me think Becky is reading the mood from Jocelyne enough to figure out that she’s hiding something, but she’s probably making the same mistake as Ethan did.
Maybe Becky is surmising that “Josh” is gay, hence the support. Taking it on face value that Josh is Joyce’s brother, since she has known “him” for years.
She was new to the concept of ‘Bi”, so trans is just not a thing to her, yet.
I had it hiccup on me. I came from today’s posting of It’s Walky, and the alt-text from there (the comic’s title) was here. I was so confused. I had to search the code to figure out why Willis was referencing Sal.
This happened to me the other day and it’s been boggling my brain. Thanks for the explanation! For a couple minutes I was hovering around looking for the SECRET ALT TEXT I JUST SAW IT I SWEAR.
Yay Jocelyne! Yay Becky, this might be the first time someone congratulated her for coming out, how sweet! Aaand poor Jocelyne again. Oh Joyce…one day you’ll learn about your sister.
Also, how interesting… He got married in India? Hm…
Jocelyn getting Becky to high-five her may be my single most favorite moment ever in this comic that isn’t violence-against-assholes based. And John and his wedding in India! Wonder if his wife is Indian?
And Joyce’s last remark OMG and Jocelyn is right there. SO MUCH GOOD STUFF.
They’re like portals into a realm beyond.
Ơ̡̮̯͚̩͙̟͙ͯ̎̔̔͋ͩ̃̊r̭̳ͧ͞ ͦͧͬ͏͓̞̟̲̦͔à̢̜̮̳̝̥̩̠̓ͤ̑̕͜ ̮̳͆̓̍ͯ̄͋̈́b̼̼̦̫̺̭̂ͧ̐̾̆̈̊ļ̷̸̬͖̝̖̅ͫä̴̫̤͑̀ͮ́͘n̛̯̻̳͓̽̋ͨ̓ͩ̉̊͑̕k̬͇͔͕ͥ͒̾͊̍̅ͨ̊̀ ͚̳̹̟̻͈̰̈̾͛ͣ̄̂̚v̦̖̗͔̮̜̿̈̑ͤ̊̍ͪ͋ͨo̖͋͒͛͘į̡̛̙̝̹͇͖̫̂͒͗͋̓̊d̻͉̖̯͍ͮ̓͋̐͛ͩ͛̄ͯ̀͠.̘͎͊͒̇͠
I’m thinking that was intentional, because so many other terms get used here without backlash that I don’t think Willis would feel the need (I mean, that could change, but for now…) Also, I’ve seen that acronym in a few different places now, and as an ally who enjoys playing Scrabble, I love the thought that went into it.
What TheGrammarLegionary said. I don’t use it a lot, but it has a couple more letters than LGBT, and also I like the idea of human sexuality being represented by a warm and cozy tote where everyone’s accepted no matter who they are and how they identify.
I’m guessing that Christi is either not Christian, not white, or something else that John feels compelled to hide from his family. Maybe she’s openly bisexual?
Congratulations, Joyce! You’ve got what you’ve always wanted!
Christian, but mixed race with Indian ancestry? That would put her firmy in Carol’s “acceptable but still says insensitive/thoughtless things about her” zone.
Probably, down the road, he shouldn’t let Joyce know that Jocelyn told him before she told Joyce?
And, now that i think about it, how did Jocelyn know that Ethan wouldnt spill the beans, accidentally or intentionally?
Jocelyn knew Erhan wouldn’t spill the beans because Ethan was re-closeting himself to date Joyce, and was therefore already good at keeping secrets. Particularly ones of that nature.
Which also makes me wonder… will Becky accidentally out Jocelyn? I have a feeling Jocelyn might come out to Becky soon, as a show of solidarity. But Becky’s lack of awareness due to her background combined with her tendency to blurt out the first thing that comes into her mind make me think she’s in a very good position to spill the beans.
Re Ethan, yes, I can see that. And Jocelyn has probably gotten pretty good at reading people. Perhaps she won’t come out to Becky before she’s ready to come out.
Yeah. Even Joyce had to take time to get used to it and fully support. To just have someone out of the blue be all, hell yeah, coming out, rock on, and have that be a Brown? It’s stunned the sass right out of her.
It’s not just that Joyce didn’t, I don’t think even the more liberal or also-queer kids gave her it, probably because they’re used to being out and less-dramatic coming outs and don’t necessarily see the significance of Becky (or, they didn’t learn until after the car chase and ‘congrats on coming out! was overshadowed).
Jocelyn seems great. I’m getting the idea that her parents (and perhaps Joyce, seeing as she lived at home and under their influence still) are the only ones in the family who know the least about her.
I dunno, John introduced her as “Josh” earlier, so I could definitely see her friends knowing all about her, but not her family. Hell, that’s usually the way it plays out with trans kids I’ve mentored. They usually spend a good chunk of time out to everyone at school and in their friend circle before taking the family plunge.
True, I didn’t really catch that (or more likely, forgot). I could argue that John didn’t want to out her aloud and by himself, or slipped up (shitty but possible, especially if it’s new to him as well, also could be related to not outing, and meant not to use a name at all), but I mean, I don’t know that any more than I know that it’s unintentional (although I still hope it’s one of the ‘he knows’ options).
Either way, I still feel like John knows more than their parents do, even if that’s less than everything.
Josh is a pretty common nickname for names like Jocelyne (or Joyce), if fact my great aunts nickname was josh, so it might also be a way for John to at least partially respect his sister w/o outing her if he does in fact know she’s trans
Seconding. There’s 0 weird about John not outing Jocelyne out loud to their family on the phone. Even if this was intended to be a coming out conversation (as im very much hoping) it’s still something Jocelyne has the dibs to say herself
I’ve also had a few situations where someone was out to me as trans but not out in general so in private they wanted me to refer to them as correct gender and name but in public they wanted to be deadnamed and misgendered so as not to be outed.
Probably the one and only situation where I would ever deliberately misgender a trans person.
Yep. It’s why at my school we have 2 separate procedures for trans kids. What they prefer to be called internally at the school including pronouns and what they feel safe being called in communications home with the parents.
Mm, this is where I am, except ‘in public’ is more ‘in front of family or friends who don’t know’ (since idgaf about strangers or barely acquaintances). And connecting more to the comic, I plan to come out to a friend next time I see him, and I definitely wouldn’t want an exchange leading up to it like:
“Yep, [MyName] is coming to, we’ll meet you at-”
“Did you just call your spouse someone else’s name??” [in DOA, “your spouse” would be “our brother”]
It would either mean getting outed in an uncomfortable and impersonal way or really awkwardly trying to claim otherwise.
Panel 1: John’s not even responding to Becky… that’s interesting. Could mean that Joyce comes first, could mean that his initial hesitation wasn’t as bad as Joyce interpreted it, could mean that he doesn’t even want to deal with her and is partially ignoring her. Curious to see more of him to see where he stands in general.
Panel 2: This is huge.
Like, no joke, Jocelyne is taking a major risk here openly supporting Becky and also full on celebrating her coming out. Hell, she is the first person period who has full-on celebrated her coming out besides her. Plenty who have accepted her and she has been grateful for everyone, but none seeing it as a moment worthy of specific praise.
Sure, she’s taken the opportunity while John’s back is turned and she’s whispering it, but it also means that Jocelyne’s longer hair and slightly femme outfit are indeed part and parcel of her building up her confidence to come out.
And it also means that Jocelyne might actually be taking strength from Becky’s coming out to take more risks with family and test the waters more. After all, if her sister can be so rabidly in support of one LGBT “family” member in defiance of the rest of the family, maybe she can be so for a second.
And it makes me so bloody excited to see if this really will be the dinner she comes out to Joyce at.
Panel 3: Speaking of huge, Becky’s face of amazement here is so utterly evocative. I mean, she’s literally stunned by Jocelyne’s celebration of her. She clearly expected no one in Joyce’s family to do more than just passively tolerate her existence, so to see someone be all “hell yeah” to her is just more than she can process and has fully broken through the terror grin she’s been upkeeping since they stole the car.
This means the world to her and that’s something she’s desperately needed from the last family she feels she has left and hopefully the start of a closer relationship between the two of them.
Panel 4: There you go, Becky, it’s rude to leave a girl hanging on a high five. 😀
Panel 5: Hmm, wife is clearly working and John is far enough away for it to be a day trip out. Maybe John is as separated from the family’s morality as the rest of them.
Panel 6 Part 1: Hmm, wedding in India. So either Christi is Indian or they do missionary work together. Though the fact that they married over there suggests the latter. And family wasn’t invited. Or at least the Joyce part wasn’t. I want to know so much more about John from these little tidbits. Also, heh, respecting his sister’s culinary limitations like a true big bro.
Panel 6, Part 2: If Christi is not white, that could also be a thing. Don’t know if Joyce’s sect is as racist as the one I grew up surrounded by, but if it is, marrying outside your “kind” is seen as akin to committing race treason. So if that’s the case, that could be a reason for John to prioritize not bringing his wife out to see the family.
Panel 6, Part 3: Oh man, that Jocelyne face. Hearing her sister lament that she’s always wanted a sister, enough to risk going to a land without soft-serve, must conjure so much for her. Excitement and hope that Joyce will be able to accept who she is without rejecting her. Pain at the fact that she can’t tell Joyce that she does have a sister. Mulling over whether Joyce has grown enough to fully trust.
It’s just such a powerful character moment and there’s not even any dialogue on her part.
You know, I was thinking that Christi might actually be a “Christian” or something like that (which is to say, a dude), but in the morning I’m wondering whether or not she might just practice a different religion.
One of my friends is evangelical, and she used to have some pretty conservative views on that front. And just look at how their parents treated Dorothy’s family.
Panel 6: Extended family is big in India. If Christi is Indian, even 2nd generation Indian-American, going home for the wedding is a real possibility. One friend of mine did. If it was missionary work, I’d suspect it was just him and he met her over there.
As for racism, even if they’re not to the race traitor level, the elder Browns aren’t exactly comfortable with diversity. As others have said, as long as she was Christian (and an acceptable kind of Christian at that) they’d make the effort, but it would be awkward and embarrassing. At best.
So Jocelyne heard EXACTLY what Joyce said about Becky there. She has a lot of reason to hope here. Obviously homosexual and trans aren’t the same thing, so there might be some education period (unless Leslie’s class has already gone into it in significant depth), but. Jocelyne has a lot of reason to hope about Joyce.
…And I’ve just given myself a sad thinking about the counterargument that she has just as much reason to not hope just because people in general, especially from this kind of community. :/ *reaches into the comic and hugs Jocelyne*
*also hugs Cerberus because I’ve looked forward to your comments on Jocelyne-related and Carla-related strips*
That’s super true. I forgot about the speaker phone. So yeah, she has a lot of reason to hope that Joyce will be the family member to fully support her, even if the rest of the family doesn’t.
Oh man oh man oh man. What if there’s something “freaky” about the wife? At least, “freaky” in “Momma Brown” terms, because something tells me “Poppa Brown” might be more open if he were given the space to expand his horizons by a certain narrow-viewed wife.
Yeah, Jocelyne came out as a trans lady to Ethan during Family Weekend. None of her family knows yet (as far as we know), though, so Joyce is in for a happy surprise!
Yeah, it’s not explicitly stated, just Jocelyn saying they’re not gay, but seemingly not totally brushing off Ethan’s attraction to her, since I think they picked up on it, and the email being for a Jocelyn Brown, not Josh. they didn’t outright say anything to Ethan, but it’s inferred.
Tbf it was possible to miss if you don’t read the comments, she came out by way of (iirc) handing him a card for her blog that listed her name as Jocelyne, not Joshua.
I’m hoping it will end with Jocelyne leaning on Joyce so she’ll have to hold him up, and Joyce saying “You’re my -sister- now, you’re supposed to help me fight against our evil brothers!”, And Jocelyne being all “I think the evidence disagrees.”
I love how Becky just stares at Jocelyne for a second, all like, “Is there subtext?” then just throws it out the window for a grin and a high five. Dang right indeed, Becky.
I think it’s straight disbelief. Like, okay, not dreaming, not being taken back as a joke… wait, double check that I’m not naked in a bed with Joyce, okay, definitely not dreaming, oh hell yeah, this is awesome!
I LOVE how Becky went into this with ALL the guns blazing, starting up with a Hitler joke and no doubt working herself up to cracks about school shootings or imprisoned fathers, and then got completely derailed by Jocelyne accepting her.
“OK, listen up you fundies. I know you are almost family and given what my father did to me I want to make perfectly clear that I am a LESBIAN and if you don’t…”
“Awesome, high five.”
“…if you… if you don’t… Wait? What?”
I don’t think we’ve seen her as completely nonplussed as in panel three since Dina kissed her. But since it is Becky, it just took her a moment to bounce back and realize that maybe, just maybe these Browns are OK.
Yeah, it’s kinda super cute. Especially since she probably went in guns blazing and running ahead to see the family entirely because she knew that they upset Joyce and damnitt, she promised that she’d be the lightning rod supporting Joyce, not the other way around and she wasn’t going to let them hurt Joyce again about her when she could take the brunt.
Yeah, I dunno. It’s probably my own bias since I grew up in Fundie-ville and had a number of friends who had to crawl out of that mess of toxic worldviews, but I have a major softspot for people raised in toxic shit who nonetheless put forward the hard work to grow and recognize their fuckups and try to be better people.
Most characters in this comic get a lot of flack – and I’m guilty of it too, sometimes – for being young, hormonal, ignorant and/or misinformed, and making decisions that we – from our privileged position of being semi-omniscent (we can only see what we’re shown, but we see much more than anyone character does), better informed and experienced and nominally more mature and wise – disapprove of. Especially, IMO, when they remind us shamefully of our own past selves and bad decisions at their age.
No, they really don’t know any better. That’s what they’re learning, as we watch. The learning is painful and frustrating for both participants and audience, sometimes. But they, at least, have the excuse that they’re still young, and expected and allowed to be and act stupid and immature. Most of us… do not.
Jocelyn is so damn pretty, and glad she has Becky’s back, too. I am not sure if Becky picked up on anything, or if she just happy that another Brown was supporting her outright and without hesitation. Joyce came around, of course, Mr. Brown seems to be trying, and Mrs. Brown’s a douchecanoe.
I dunno if it’s intentional or if it’s just because of your ever-evolving art style but it kinda looks like Jocelyne’s been on HRT since last she showed up?
Someone up below talked about a special Indian dessert, mentioning that soft serve wouldn’t last 30 seconds in the heat of the Indian summer (not to be confused with American Indian summers… I mean, the “Indian summer” phenomena happening in USA.) A word search would quickly take you to that point.
I’m getting the impression that it is a Brown tradition to go off and do or be something far beyond the lifestyle and culture of La Porte. Furthermore, one wonders if, for some reason, John doesn’t feel comfortable bringing Cristi too close to his family.
Meanwhile, Joyce has made Jocelyn feel guilty and doesn’t know it!
Jocelyn did say their parents like her most because they know the LEAST about her, so yeah, John probably either has avoided bringing Cristi by Judgmentville, USA, or she hasn’t wanted to be around.
Yes on the first, no on the second. Quite contrary to “taking it well” the knowledge that transsexuals are a thing that exist on top of lesbians and atheists before that will be the last step that finally causes Joyce to implode, ripping a tear in the fabric of space and causing DoA-verse to merge with Walkyverse. This is definitely what Willis has been building up to all this time.
Aaaah, I wonder if the jordan situation his parent’s don’t like is that he married a non-christian. His parents keep mentioning him like he’s done SOMETHING that’s completely against their ethos.
I keep thinking that he’s just ‘alternative’ – like a goth or something, with dyed hair, tattoos, piercings, and open disrespect for his parents’ lifestyle and rules. Of course, I guess it could be something actually bad, like he’s a violent drug addict who commits armed robberies. I don’t really remember what’s been said about him so far, beyond the fact that he’s apparently gone down what his parents consider a terrible path.
I could see that, though I’ve been mentally assuming that Jordan is essentially the Willis stand-in, i.e. the kid who drifted away from faith and who gets into arguments with his mom about gay marriage and school shootings and who makes his living as an Internet Pornlord.
I’m not so sure about that, mainly because Joyce is already the Willis stand-in. Her character is pretty auto-biographic as it is, and f.ex. the whole “I would die for you” phone conversation was based on how his own mom would keep saying exactly those words.
And I think even Joyce once said something like “Jordan is too Jordan” as to why she doesn’t speak much with him, and while I can’t remember exactly when, I’m pretty sure it was way after she’d grown to realize that atheists are perfectly normal people after all.
I did right in giving you a slartibeasthood, Button.
Of course, that renders my entire second paragraph moot. I mean, I could speculate about how Jocelyne is probably more open to someone who’s drifted away from faith, etc.; but it’s really no way to really -know- that at this point.
I’m beginning to think that Carol disapproves her children being anything other than a living photocopy of her and Hank in appearance and behaviour. If they fail to do this that’s a mortal sin and she insists that they are cut off completely.
Because it’s impossible for them to do this, the Browns are steadily losing their kids one-by-one. Eventually, I think the point will come where Hank will say “Carol, no matter what you think, I still want my children” and a divorce might follow.
She’s like a slightly less radical version of Toedad. Slightly, because she probably wouldn’t take up a gun against her kid.
But what she does share with toedad is this: She doesn’t truly love her children. What she loves is being a Good Mother, as per her own views of what a Good Mother should be. Having children is her way of serving the Lord the way she was taught she is supposed to serve him. It’s the -ideal- that matters, not the well-being of the actual people involved.
I just realized we’re brewing up a Marvel Civil War type situation, with Joyce, Jocelyn, and Mr Brown on one side, and Mrs Brown and John on the other.
“Hmm, you know, just let us meet up in a big city in India, as long as there’s an US fast food brand I think I can survive”.
(to be honest, I’m not sure a lot of tourist do any better on that front 🙂
—
I think John basically ignored Becky after her rude remark.
I guess that even before Becky turned out to be a dangerous lesbian the older brothers learnt to occasionally tune out that hyperactive, readheaded babble that followed their little sister around.
Of course, one could argue that – rude, stupid comment notwithstanding – an “OMG, Becky, I’m so glad to see you. Sorry about all that shooty-shooty-stuff” would not be amiss, but given that Jocelyne takes care of that right now it’s not a inappropriate for John to focus on Joyce instead.
Given that John started back in the phone call by trying to get Joyce to ditch Becky (where?) for lunch, I’m not sure it’s just because of the Hitler joke or even the “hyperactive, redheaded babble”.
Maybe I’m cynical, but this strip was too happy. We’re about to get pain.
India has a few branches of MacDonalds, though the menu is…. just a little different. You won’t find even an ounce of beef there. And now I’m desperate to try a McSpicy Paneer. http://www.mcdonaldsindia.com/products.html
I literally did a happy “Eeee!” and clapped my hands over Jocelyn finding the nerve to congratulate Becky on coming out.
In a homophobic family? That’s a huge risk.
In a homophobic family while queer yourself? That’s a freaking risk the size of a moon.*
*Possibly more so in my case because I have a bad habit of losing my brain-to-mouth filter when I’m emotional and then I blurt out shit that, while true, isn’t necessarily something I want aired at that time and definitely not in that manner.
I know. She may have waited until John and Joyce were distracted, but this was still an incredibly risky and brave move on her part and that can’t be emphasized enough.
I think Jocelyne might be getting real fucking close to her “fuck it, I’m coming out” point, especially after how rough Family Weekend was and how often she needed to run away to keep from “saying something she could never take back” there.
John seems quite open . Else , Jocelyn wouldn’t do that congratulation thing in this context. I wonder if his wife is of another religión, or maybe atheist, maybe a transexual is toó far of a stretch for this comic . I want those brothers and sisters to unite, break the rules! Besides, I want to know what really happened to Jordán.
She was quite clearly responding to a question at the top of panel 3 in the last comic, so a conversation was clearly going on, we were just seeing only one side of it. I expect the other half will appear in a later comic.
Only thing she could eat in India, where she could have gone to the wedding to meet her sister-in-law. Of course, that’s not why she hasn’t met her since they’ve been back.
– Soft serve is a food that Joyce can eat.
– Soft serve is (presumably) available in India
– Joyce can survive in India by eating soft serve (and not Indian food, which has stuff in it).
– By surviving in India, Joyce can meet Christi, who is her sister in law.
– Implied: John is a poop-face who doesn’t bring Christi and visit Joyce in Indiana so they can spend awesome sister-time together, but instead take her to India where they have Indian food and Joyce will have to live on soft serve just to meet her sister.
– Not implied because Joyce doesn’t know it: YOUR SISTER IS SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, JOYCE, AND YOU ARE BREAKING HER HEAAAAART
Joyce has, as far as she knows, three brothers, and has always wanted to have a sister.
So her sister-in-law, John’s wife Christi, would be this ‘sister’ for her, but the two haven’t met yet.
John and Christi married about a year ago, in India, and Joyce wasn’t present for the wedding. One of the reasons, or at least the excuse they used, was that Joyce being a very picky eater, she would have nothing to eat there.
She’s now saying she would be willing to eat only soft serve while in India (the only thing she guesses would be present and she would be willing to eat), just so she could see this “new sister” she got.
That high five is such a great moment, and you can see how much it means to Becky to have someone from the world she used to know say “Hey! You’re great just the way you are! You have nothing to be ashamed about.”
With Jocelyne, there’s no equivocation, guilt or hostility, just a wholehearted supportive affirmation, because she gets it, and knows how brave Becky’s been.
FWIW, we don’t know what story Carol has told her other children and, thus, what they think happened that day at IU. John may be understandably nervous about being around the predatory deviant who got Ross arrested with her lies after he intervened and stopped her from seducing Joyce.
It’s subtle, but there’s also the alt-text and the fact the tag immediately changed from “Joshua” to “Jocelyne” and David Willis’s multiple confirmations in the comments and his twitter and tumblr.
I can’t tell you the strip number (but you can search the tags), but it was waaaaay back when parents day (or whatever you call it) at campus, during her interactions with Ethan.
On yesterday’s nazi joke: Willis made a post about it, here: https://tmblr.co/Z9FhQx24CSG6y For those who were disturbed by it, maybe it will help assuage your feelings. Or maybe not – where I’m from our Hitler jokes are about Hitler, not about comparing people to Hitler, but for me that joke was just horrible and in poor taste, not actually disturbing. Still, couldn’t hurt the read (I hope).
Also, I propose we henceforth refer to this meeting as the “lunch where we Jocelyne is gutpunched over and over again,” because right now we’re two for two.
Wow! That all makes a lot of sense and does a really good job of owning up the reader impact of the joke.
Also, woo, I got confirmation of the theory that Becky ups the “wacky” factor to 11 when she’s scared and is thus most likely to slip into the inappropriateness she was raised in in those moments. As well, as the theory that this is something she is growing out of as she learns which jokes are and aren’t appropriate (a common refrain for any teenager being exposed to the larger world). That’s a pretty cool bonus.
Though, I would love to hear from people who were hurt by the joke yesterday on whether or not they feel Willis’s post addresses their experiences adequately (not that they owe anyone that one way or another).
I imagine one of the most frustrating things for an artist is having to explain your art, so I appreciate that he decided to do so.
I felt okay with the strip because I think I got it. Becky’s just being loud and obnoxious because that’s how she deals with her fear. Characters can be dicks sometimes.
Not to deny how people felt, of course. They’re totally entitled to that and nobody should try and take that away from them. There’s been and will be sequences that I find hurtful where other people don’t, and I think that any work of art that tries to tackle important issues will on occasion cause that reaction in people.
I don’t think that’s the point – I felt, if not okay, at least not personally offended by the joke, but then again, I, like Joyce, “would be okay” (except for my atheism, but religious beliefs are easy enough to fake), nor am I ever told “hey, you look like a nazi.”
I expect it’d be more gutwrenching if you’re regularly told “hey, by virtue of how your genes turned out, you’re just like those guys who killed a shitload of people who were just going about their daily lives,” ESPECIALLY if you happen to be one of those people (we had at least two jews with blonde hair and blue eyes yesterday commenting how terrible it was for them because they get those exact type of comments in real life).
For me, it was just like Mary’s “I’m taking you to the boys wing where you belong” to Carla – it offends me in the basis of terribleness, but I’m not nor was I ever actually endangered by any of it, but at least back then no-one was in the comments defending Mary (the thinnest of silver linings, I have found it).
TL; DR: I can see why people would have a legitimate reason to feel bad about yesterday’s strip, and it’s therefore not my place to say what will or will not smooth those feelings over (even though my original post could come off otherwise, now that I read it a second time, so eurgh).
Oh there were people defending Mary’s comment back then and there’s been a steady stream of people intentionally minimizing the comment to hate on Carla for reacting to it. A number have been banned, but not all of them.
But it wasn’t something where the narrative was also saying it wasn’t that big of a deal, so I definitely feel for folks like Sig on that one and extend all the *hugs* I can.
“If you think she was a shithead, well, you’re right.” Good. It’s *not* a phase-state where she can’t be a shithead because she checks the right demographic boxes.
It’s still about 6 paragraphs of “what you real-life people have to understand to accomodate this puppet I draw”, to 2 on ‘this is what I’ve come to understand about people (like some people find Nazi Germany offensive,and don’t always accept “But I’m not offended…” as a final word on things- who knew?)” But it’s something, at least.
I think a lot of it is the cultural differences he referred to. Which I’m pretty sure isn’t just anti-Semitism or the tolerance of it.
The joke was intended to be obnoxious, but not nearly so far beyond the pale as some people took it. Which I think explains a lot of the clash yesterday. Just how common such things are in your local culture.
Nazi jokes are far from always in bad taste in my experience, as long as the they’re not approving of the Nazi jokes, which they usually aren’t. If that wasn’t the case, I wouldn’t be allowed to enjoy a lot of Jewish humor as was discussed at length yesterday.
Comparing people to Nazis is always insulting and almost always too far over the top, which is where I placed yesterday’s strip. Becky going overboard as she does at times, but not some kind of threat/attack on Jews by her or Willis.
Obviously, mileage varies on that. 🙂
Thank you for the link! While this doesn’t immediately make things okay, it at leasts makes it clear that the comic will acknowledge the joke, and any other behavior that may trigger the criticism to come out. This means that Becky may get an arc where she realizes that some of her behavior hurt people, and can shift the self-loathing she has for her sexuality and presence into a constructive drive for self-improvement. This would be rad.
Does it automatically make the joke justified? I’m unsure, since the comic hasn’t actually acknowledged it yet. Moreover there are other people who I can’t speak for that may never find bringing up nazis in this particular comic as justifiable, at least not in this way, and may consider this to be a mistake through and through. Or they may feel something else! In any case, this post was good to see. While I’m still holding my breath for the pay off, at least I can read the rest of the arc without constantly thinking back to how fucked up and unexplained the last strip was.
(I replied to myself, so I hope this ends up in the right place in the comments)
Don’t thank me. Thank the guy who went to the trouble of asking the question, and Willis for taking the time to answer it, probably while feeding a baby with one hand and wiping vomit with the other (I guess he typed with his nose?) – I’m sure if he took the time to answer every criticism of the comic, he wouldn’t have time for anything else, including making more comic.
Me? I just ctrl+c/ctrl-v’d the whole thing, and I didn’t even go to the trouble of taking my finger off of ctrl in between to do it.
I grew up in what would now might be termed a “white-bread” community.
As kids in the playground we used to sing “Hitler has only got one ball, the other is in the Albert Hall.”
So, yeah. I agree with Willis on the common currency of Hitler jokes in homogenous white communities.
I also think it’s in line with Becky’s psychology at this point.
Also, rather brave of Willis as it opens him up to genuine complaints from non-Americans but also, as we saw from the banned person, non-genuine snarkiness from trolls.
Wow. This site truly is Educational for me.
A) Willis confirmed what slowly dawned on me from comments, namely, that I was misinterpreting Becky’s entrance because I am clueless about this milieu and projected my own onto it.
B) Willis himself learned something I slowly realized but should have realized sooner — I had clues — namely, what Sig was saying … and I seem to have missed someone else who said the same.
C) Im not half so clever as I sometimes think that I am.
D) keep at the mindfulness practices, including those aimed at the impulsiveness, because I am still posting impulsive comments….
E) There are many commenters here who I learn from reading–including some who engage in disputation with each other, rationally, respectfully, with goodwill.
This family is fascinating. As a guy who grew up in a ‘white’ community in Canada, not experiencing much racism or overt religious conflict, I’m blown away that these types of attitudes and family dysfunction exist. More and more I am realizing how naive I have been. I have to say though, Nazi jokes are always in bad taste. Comparing someone to Hitler at anytime, anywhere, is just pathetic. The interwebs are just so full of stupid “you’re like Hitler” comparisons that there’s no reasonable way to take it seriously. Anyone who makes a Hitler comparison is just like Hitler.
The Hitler Youth Group doesn’t get mentioned as much in media as, say, the Nazi party or the SS does.
My dad (who is German, obviously) was ten when WWII broke out, and grew up in Nazi Germany. He was a member of the Hitler Youth, because, he says, *everyone* who was a kid in Germany at the time was a member; joining was not optional. However, he describes it as basically being “like Boy Scouts, but with guns.”
I mentioned this to a fellow student who was really interested in WWII at school when I found out, and he was all, like, “Holy shit! Your Dad’s a Nazi!” Which of course is completely wrong; our family never supported the Nazis (not that you can find many people, post-War, who will admit that they did) and had a very hard time of it during and following the war. He has all sorts of interesting stories from the time, some funny, some pretty tragic. Took me about ten years to get the whole story of how he broke his nose, piece by piece, a new piece every few years. The rest of this post isn’t very nice.
He broke his nose because he was riding his bike and hit a pole.
He didn’t see the pole because it was dark.
It was dark because of the blackouts.
He hit the pole because he was going too fast for not being able to see.
He was going too fast because the air raid sirens were going off and he was trying to get to safety before the bombs started dropping.
When he hit the pole in the dark it knocked him off his bike, and saved his life, because the next block over, there was a line of people at a bus stop, and a bomb landed right on them, killing them all. If he hadn’t hit the pole (breaking his nose, and causing him to snore like a chainsaw until he finally got it fixed about fifteen years ago) he would have been biking past when it fell and he would have been killed as well.
So. And there’s the story of how he was passing a subway station after an air raid one day (might have been the same one, not sure) which had had a bomb hit it directly, killing a lot of people, and they were roping in all the passers-by to help dig the bodies (and parts of bodies, a lot of limbs, apparently) out of the wreckage. He was about ten. They grabbed him too anyways.
So he got to spend the rest of the day helping to dig pieces of his dead neighbours out of the rubble; but Deadpool might scar my kids for life. *eyeroll*
Here’s a funnier one to make up for the above post.
Food was extremely scarce during the war, to the point that my Dad and his dad were out scavenging just to be able to eat. They had to steal food to live, and they had to not tell my grandmother it was stolen (when it was) or she would have refused to eaten it, and starved, because the supply lines were down and no food was coming into the city.
So when the neighbourhood realized that a pile of earth outside a nearby government building was actually a buried pile of potatoes, you can imagine the frenzy. My Dad and his dad each grabbed armfuls of potatoes, as did everyone else; but then, on the way back, they decided this was too slow, and so they stole a wheel barrow from a nearby government shed and loaded it up. As they were loading it for a second time (having run the first load home) the police finally showed up.
“These aren’t your potatoes,” they told the crowd. “You can’t take them.”
“Oh, we didn’t realize,” everyone said.
“You have to bring all the potatoes you already took back,” said the police. “You guys!” (to my dad and grandpa) “How many loads did you take?”
“Oh,” said Grandpa, “This is our first load. We just got here.”
“Well, fine. Put it back.”
“Okay. –But what about our wheelbarrow?”
“Fine, you can keep your wheelbarrow.”
And so they got a bunch of potatoes and a wheelbarrow, ha ha.
–Aaand having said that, I realize that telling stories about my Dad’s life in Nazi Germany could absolutely hurt people, given the context of the conversation here over the past day or so. >< I'm an idiot and I apologize; I just thought it might be interesting to hear a couple stories from someone who actually was in the HYG. #NotAllGermans, I guess? *facepalm*
Not sure how much my word is worth, but I appreciated it. Often we dehumanize German citizens for WW2, even to this day, and I feel it important to talk about them as well.
Adding in my voice here, as a Norwegian (i.e. one of the countries that got invaded by Germany):
I do not think you crossed a line. Your father is basically just as much a victim of the Nazis as f.ex. my grandparents were, and then some. Sure, the stories were a bit on the dark side, but as Spencer said, they do a great job of getting across the point that he was just a normal kid. A normal kid in a world gone fucking mad.
Jocelyne’s face is similar to the face I wear when my sister keeps talking about how stupid a plot point in a book is and I want to tell her it will all make sense when she reads the next book, but if I do that there will be SPOILERS, so I just have to just sit there quietly and listen to her complain about how ANNOYING a character is, and I can’t tell her the character has a good reason to be annoying.
Only in this case it’s Jocelyn’s identity instead of a book, and if she comes out then people might do way worse than yell at her for spoilers. So she clearly has it worse than I do.
I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that Jocelyne will find some kinship with Becky and while she might come out during this scebe, if she doesnt, she may come out to Becky before anyone else.
Okay, I didn’t read through every comment so I don’t know if anyone raised it yet, but the comic makes vague references to John’s family, is it possible that the reason his wife is staying away is step-kids? I could totally imagine the Brown parents being upset that their oldest son married a woman who already had kids.
Honestly, there are so many things the Brown parents can be upset about that’s we’re pretty much just wild guessing on how to win the “how will the Browns be horrible people THIS time” at this point.
For instance, it’s entirely possible that their upsetness could be if Christi is an Indian girl, which means the Browns would upset over brown people, and that just make me giggle inside.
Yes, I’m a horrible person, and no, I make no apologies for it.
India could just be short-hand for “someplace far away that would entail a lot of travelling time and has rich, spicy food which is why you couldn’t eat decently there and we can’t visit with any regularity.” On the other, that DOES really roll off the tongue, so what would be the point?
Honestly, when I first heard India I thought “long-term mission trip”- not sure if their kind of evangelicals do that, but some of my extended relatives do stuff like leave for South America for a year and a half and some of them wind up going back and having vacations or weddings and things there. (This is not nearly as worldly or unprivileged as it might sound, but.)
The idea that she’s Indian or South Asian or suchlike is a good Occam’s Razor idea, though.
The hovertext entirely predicted my own thoughts – and Jocelyne’s expression is utterly priceless.
Willis, you masterful fiend, I cannot wait to see what happens next, which probably means we’ll be cutting back to Carla or Billie tomorrow. I predict a DYW! in my future.
Since Jocelyne is only their favourite child because they still think she is a he I was wondering what was “wrong” with her siblings in the eyes of the Browns. If I’m reading the situation right they don’t like that their son married a woman of colour.
Why would anybody have a problem with India foot? The meat is mainly chicken, it’s rich in spices, their heat is a low mild at hottest… I don’t see the problem.
Speaking as a person who was as picky as Joyce up through most of high school… for someone like Joyce, “rich in spices” is a definite no-no, the fact that there is ANY heat at all is a deal-breaker, and if the chicken comes in a strange foreign soup/sauce, it’s untouchable. Also, rice is weird and unappetizing. She would probably just have to eat naan.
My mum, while British, was born in India and so we ate a lot of curries growing up. I thought I was pretty used to them, and I know they were a lot hotter than what Indian restaurants are willing to serve little ol’ blonde me. 😀
But one day, while visiting my Gran in London, we went to an Indian restaurant there. They asked how hot I wanted it and I asked for medium but my Gran strongly advised mild, because they didn’t tone them down for Caucasians.
It was so delicious. And so hot I had to scrape the sauce off the meat to be able to eat it. Soooooo good but my mouth just couldn’t take it. 😀
Having said that, I’ve never ever been served a curry that hot in Canada, even when I’ve asked for it to be very hot, so.
Of course it depends on the Caucausians. If you’re more South Western US and you grew up living on chile and hot sauce, you might give the Indians a run for their money. 🙂
Or you could be a freak like me, who grew up eating fairly bland New England food but started loving hot food when exposed to it in my college years. Sadly these days, though I still love it I have to tone it down a little. My stomach is no longer the cast iron it used to be. 🙁
The final panel, Jocelyne’s face and Joyce’s sister reference and the blue eyes. Other commenters have praised the combination already, but once more won’t hurt. Thank you, Mr. Willis. Wonderful.
I mean…this is Becky we’re talking about, if she’d figured out Joc was trans, or ‘figured out’ that ‘he’ was gay, do you think she’d have not immediately shouted ‘holy crap, you’re (trans)/(gay, too)!?!’
One of my nephews is anti spicy and his big brother is spicier the better. It made the punishment for foul mouthiness rather easy for my sister. The kid who hates spice was given an square inch of jalapeño to eat, instead of soap because he likes eating soap.
Odd fact: The fundamentalist Christians in my area have a good 1/3rd as Indian as Christian missionaries in my area often go over there, convert, often get married, and move back.
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So by “too married” the subtext was “and on the opposite side of the world”?
HIGHEST FIVES FOR BEST BROWN
well played
I still feel like it’s just ‘he’s too involved with his own family to see his siblings,’ although I bet the parents don’t do much to encourage him to come around with his wife.
(Of course, regardless of if Joc really noticed, that could mean that too married=won’t come because parents don’t want his wife to come and fuck that)
I wanted to clarify, I feel like Jocelyn said it either believing ‘he’s too involved with his own family to see his siblings,’ was true, or wanting not to imply more than that due to her parents being there (‘mom wouldn’t let Christi come and John cares for his wife so he didn’t come either’ wouldn’t really go well in front of Carol, especially when trying to be the least-known favourite).
I definitely think that Carol and possibly Hank would frame it similarly but ruder (and more passive aggressive- ‘John doesn’t respect me or seem to care about our family very much anymore, so I guess he isn’t coming,’ or something of that sort.
Boy, is SHE in for a surprise…
“I wanted a sister my whole life” OOOOOH JOYCE YOU HAVE NO IDEA!! *grabs popcorn* ok “joshua” lets GET IN ON
HEYOOO
Joyce wanted a cis-ter.
Well, she’s gonna just have to accept Jocelyne, ’cause it’s quite clear that “Christi” doesn’t actually exist…
Is that the next step after “Canadian Girlfriend”? “Married in India”?
Ohhh….I wish you could meet my girlfriend,
My girlfriend who lives in India.
It beats “Morgan Fairchild” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4
I’m not convinced of that. I think Christi not being the right type of Christian to please the Browns is more likely. After all it seems unlikely John wouldn’t have sent some pictures of the wedding to his family.
Or her not being Christian at all.
Taking all bets here!
Christi is
A) Imaginary
2) Not Christian
III) Wrong Kind of Christian (maybe even, wait for it… Catholic!)
iv) Too non-white.
In whatever way it could work out, the idea that ALL of the Brown kids are in some significant way living in ways which run counter to their strict fundamentalist upbringing would be _extremely_ satisfying.
Your numbering is hurting my brain.
Voting wrong kind of christian. Like, Presbyterian or Lutheran or something.
@Dean: Oh the irony!
– actually a guy?
I’ve also got a feeling that they got married in India because that’s where her family is from. Christianity a significant minority religion in India, and there is a surprising amount of LDS as well. I think his wife being LDS would blow the Brown’s minds even more than her being of Indian descent.
My bet is on the Syrian Christian sect of Kerala. Interesting mix of ancient Christian traditions with those of their Hindu neighbours= maximum Brown eyebrow-raising.
1001 🙂 Predominantly Roman Catholic (Latin Rite), Saint Thomas Christians (East Syrian Rite / West Syrian Rite) and various denominations of Protestants. Of that ethnically Predominant Kerala, Tamil Nadu, other parts of South India, Goa, Nagaland 90%, Mizoram 87%, Meghalaya 71%, Manipur 40%, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh.
I would find it especially amusing if Christi turns out to be a Nestorian Catholic, or evn better, a Nasrani. The confusion that would cause the Browns would be epic.
Oh, I think Christi will be Christian alright. “Her” name being Christian as well. “Mom and Dad, I’ll be marrying a Christian.” “We expected no less.” “Let me explain.”
He married someone _named_ Christian. John will have the biggest surprise of all to La Familia Brown, to be topped only when he turns to Jocelyn and says, “Oh, heck, sis, I knew before you did.” — That right there is called “guessing for maximum dramatic effect” with a side of “wishful thinking.” Then Becky says “heh” while Joyce’s brain melts (and re-forms.)
Or worse (to the Brown’s POV), she’s Hindu.
That’s probably still better than Catholic in their eyes.
Well India was under British rule for a while so maybe she’s Anglican Protestant? And she likes Cricket!
Wrong kind of Christian, yeah, like Hindu or Sunni!
Hell she could even be a dirty Jain. [/s]
Or a Sikh! 😀 Do Sikh women get training with the tulwar and the chakram? Because that’d be totes awesome. Best girlfriend/wife ever, hands down.
Sikh of both genders are encouraged to take some martial training though as with any faith in a modern context it is now more an exception than the norm to take it to any level of expertise.
Or… or… A Baha’i!
Joyce said she hadn’t met her, not that she’d never seen her. I assumed they were just doing missionary work together.
Yeah, that’s what I assumed too!
Probably Eastern Orthodox. But yeah, I was guessing she’s not wore.
I am amused that at least one of her school mates knows, yet she doesn’t.
I doubt Becky has worked out Jocelyne’s specific secret, but she knows that this person has a similar situation.
That one schoolmate would be Ethan, not Becky.
I like to think indian food would have awakened Joyce to the joys of mixing foods and many spices.
And then killed her immediately thereafter.
Joyce’s first encounter with curry would be a thing to behold.
May Jeebus help her if someone tricks her into eating a ghost pepper.
With the jalapeño jar trick?
I saw that episode. She got hiccups, and in the end gave them to Chiyo-Chan.
Hopefully it’ll turn up in the years to come, even if only in the bonus strips.
Or vindaloo.
I understood that reference.
TRUE FACTS: There’s a new Indian restaurant in Tysons Corner advertising its food as “Indian food EVERYONE will love!”
haven’t tried it but must have a “super bland” option
More liek super bland errything.
Like Indian restaurants don’t reduce the spiciness for their non-Indian customers.
Depends on the kind of spiciness. I am all about flavor, but I’m not into heat for the sake of heat.
A lot of Indian cuisine is generally all the spices. Also talking about Indian cuisine is like talking about European cuisine. The food from Goa is very different from that from Mumbai or Punjab.
But you probably know that already.
Each family has it’s own curries – although the nearer you get to a big city center, the more homogenised it will be.
I’ve taken to saying “I like it medium spicy but like medium for a white person” and they laugh at me and they always make it perfect.
The local Thai place just gave up and put their usual hot-hot seasoning blend in a big shaker on the table. “Sure, we can make all our stuff taste like American Chinese food. The Thai-ness is in the shaker.”
I recently found out my favorite Chinese place actually has six levels of spices for their food instead of just three for their customers, going from “Caucasian mild” all the way to “Asian extra spicy.”
Dial it up to 11 for Sydney Scoville.
Only 11? Try 11,000.
the MightyHalo(tm) define your petty numbers! try dialling up to ‘GUSTATOMIC APOCALYPSE SAUCE!’ and then we can start talking.
look for a comedy skit called ‘Hot and Saucey’.
They have sauces called ‘CLINICALLY INSANE CLYDE’S COLON CORROSION’ and ‘TEMPORAL PATRICIDE’.
Isn’t that not much hotter than a jalapeño?
boy are you low, she asked if one meal was “about 3,000,000?”
And then requested a garnish of PURE CAPSAICIN. Holy crap.
And she asked for a drop of pure capsaicin for garnish.
Yeah, we’ve got one that goes “Coward Mild/Medium/Hot”, “White Mild?Medium/Hot”, and “Thai Mild/Medium/Hot”. My ex-husband, who prided himself on his ability to eat things that might as well have been chemical fires (yeah, basically things that were hot more than flavorful, just for the sake of the heat) couldn’t handle Thai Mild XD I stick to Coward Hot or White Mild, because I like things bland, but not utterly tasteless 😛
In New Mexico we referred to it as “gringo hot”
(which was probably rude). A few restaurants had warnings at the tables for tourists (in Santa Fe).
I like to tell restaurants, “I have had Thai food IN THAILAND. Yes, actually spicy.”
Yes, I know a fellow who loves spices like woah, and he asks people to “make it super spicy, no really, do it as though you were making it for yourself”. He is happiest when his eyes are streaming with tears and his sinuses are liquifying, and the kitchen staff is sneaking peeks at him around the corner to see that yes he’s really eating it.
Indian restaurants better have spices reduced. Friends of mine bought cook books while in India, and when they invited me to eat they mentioned they were using just a quarter of the amount of spices specified – and it was still very hot.
Eating hot dishes needs practice, better start low.
O went to my favourite Indian restaurant in Vancouver with my Mum (who is Indian-born British), and ordered a curry. I told them I’d like it really hot, that I ate curries regularly, and I’d like it hot enough to make me sweat. “Hot hot hot.”
When it came it was perfect (as usual, when I ordered it that way). Mum said, “That’s ‘hot hot hot?!'” I told her to look around. We were the only Caucasians in the place. If I told them to make it super hot then I would get what I actually wanted, which was about a medium, ha ha. They tone it down (a lot) for us blondes, lol.
There’s an Indian grocery near me with a little kitchen in the back where some years ago when I bought their Vindaloo the first time, I was cautioned like 3 times that it really wasn’t for white people. They were right. It was delicious, all sorts of complex flavors under the heat, but it was too hot for me. Right at the level that I could eat it and did because the rest of it tasted so good, but it was with plenty of milk and yogurt to cut the heat and still painful. Then I kept going back for more. 🙂
Sadly, they have a new cook and the food isn’t as good. Or as hot.
Some of the stag crowds like it as hot as possible. Hence some Manchester indian restaurants do a vindaloo or tindaloo. Curry mile in Manchester (I think) is an an interesting experience being a mile of curry houses.
I get hiccups from too much chilli powder in one dish.
When they ask how spicy I like things I say ‘I eat Sri Lankan level spicy ‘ and never have an issue getting my five alarm goodness (It works here because there’s a large Tamil diaspora and Sri Lanka is where vindaloo originates)
I am gleeful/creeped out to find another local on here
I’m gonna be real; my family is Mexican and Mexican spicy is a different scale than Indian spicy
And by that you mean higher or lower?
Once visited an Anglo college friend in Phoenix; joined him at a house painting thing at a friend of his. Friends friend was American Born Mexican, though his mom seemed not to speak any English. Mom and sisters made an amazing spread of food for all the guys who’d spent the day painting. Our host slathered the sauce on his tamale and dug in with gusti. My blond friend Dan copied. I put one drop on mine as a test. That drop burned thru my tongue. Dan bit into his and went Looney Tunes: grabbed every beer and soda on the table, one after another, and poured them into his poor mouth.
It’s weird, because Indian food can be super spicy, but then Indian desserts taste so bland
Have you tried gulab jamun or jalaybies? Both of them I find very flavourful desserts/sweets; but the little square things I agree with you on. They look amazing but there isn’t that much to them. I love following up a curry with nice warm gulab jamun, though (little warm dumpling things in syrup).
Is that the American Tandoor? Not going to try it either. Indian is the one cuisine that I haven’t picked up a taste for.
I feel like the point of Indian is the spice, even though I don’t dig spice
Hey! Ana Chronistic! I live right over in The Broadlands! Coffee?
we actually live a half-hour away and hit Tysons whenever we really need to GTFO =p
for instance, at 7:45p on a Saturday for some reason
Bland or not. The spice palate doesn’t agree with everyone. I have been sneaking up on Indian cuisine from Vietnam and Thailand, but Thai curries are as far as I can go.
Something in white-people-Thai food makes my husband extremely ill. Something else in both that and Mexican food (or possibly the same thing) makes me sniffle disgustingly.
I guess we’re going to have to make do with European-savory if we want something non-bland. Still, there’s something to be said for thickly strewing your pot of pork, bacon, cabbage, onions, and tomatoes with three different kinds of savory herbs plus pepper, and thickening the broth with a roux that has sour cream and a bit of wine vinegar beaten into it.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap dizzly dawg! Jocelyne looks so nervous.
Wow Joyce is more picky at what she eats than me! and i dont eat hamburgers!😆
Picky?? Joyce is the girl who dissected tacos.
Why? D:
She hates it when different foods touch each other which suggests that salads and pizzas are not her thing.
I was just making a joke based on my username.
thx for explaining. i was focussing on “why is he wearing a paper bag”. i’m sorry to hear the answer is DISSECTION SCARS :C
Joyce just got caught up in an unexpected rush of SCIENTIFIC CURIOSITY and forgot that anesthetic is appreciated for surgery, so it was a little messy.
Tacos got sewn back together wrong. 🙁
It’s okay, Gir still loves you.
Okay, if Jocelyne doesn’t come out at this restaurant, I might cry.
There had better be hugging.
interrupted by becky declaring she’s still not into it.
You just want the next book title, admit it.
So Jocelyne makes this big announcement at the table, and while the others are soaking in the info, Joyce suddenly blurts out:
“Oh yeah? Well *I’m* a Pastafarian!”
*shocked silence*
“I, uh, I… converted.”
I’d buy pescetarian before Pastafarian
They have Sacred Cow Soft Serve, I hear. Good enough for the Gods, good enough for Joyce, I’d think.
*plays Van Halen’s “Ice Cream Man” on the jukebox*
As opposed to Master P’s “Mr. Ice Cream Man.”
Is that like the Black Cow shakes they used to have at Arby’s back in the day?
Her parents wouldn’t let her eat it because it’s heathen soft serve. 😛
So I Googled “Christian Ice Cream” and all I got out of it were a bunch of really shitty/hilarious/kinda-clever puns. Cherry-ty or Ten CommandMints flavour anyone?
And the word for the day is Kulfi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulfi
mmmm… Kulfi!
I would like to try the trad flavors, please.
…rose flavored? Fuck yeah!
I prefer violet flavoured stuff, but…rose flavoured ice cream would be awesome…
Rose flavored gelato is my favorite thing of all the things, ever. Especially with pink sugar sprinkles on top.
I got kulfi all over my kufi, which sucks since I spilled kefir on my keffiyeh yesterday….
Well. I need that in my mouth now.
(When I lived in Japan for part of a summer, the best thing ever – okay one of several best things ever but gimmie a break – was the sesame seed soft serve at this shop upstairs in the train station. But it’s generally true that train station food in Japan is amazing.)
Aww, I think Becky really needed that. Not just support, but praise for coming out. Yay, Jocelyne!
She’ll probably feel comfortable enough to tone the joking attitude down a bit, now that she’s gotten immediate support instead of hostility.
Yeah! She is definitely surprised and thrilled by this reaction. She’s never even heard of a positive response, least of all from Joyce’s family; she knew that being out would show her who the jerks were, but it never occurred to her that it would also show her who the shiny supporters were, too. Yay.
Becky might also be incorrectly suspecting that Jocelyn is a gay dude (she seems to get that a lot).
I’m not sure Becky knows the trans* community exists. We’ll find out!
i was about to say… it looks like Becky is trying to cast Gaydar in that one panel.
I think that’s pure shock. She’s braced for a fight or for grudging tolerance for Joyce’s sake at best and get’s an enthusiastic high-five instead.
She’ll start wondering why later, but the processing hasn’t caught up to that yet.
I hereby declare thejeff to be right, because that’s what I thought too, and I’m always right. 😉
What if Joceline has been out to John for a while, but isn’t ready to to tell Joyce yet? For all they know, she’s as indoctrinated and closed-minded as their mother.
I AM IN FAVOR OF
Also, there’s not a deceptive bone in Joyce’s body.
Part of being in the closet(and existing, in Jocelyn’s case) is calculating the risk. Guileless Joyce living at home with Carol and that secret is a fucking huge risk, even if she was the most accepting person on the planet.
That’s a really cool idea.
Jocelyne has totally no idea how to take that.
Someone asked for Long haired Becky and Short haired Joyce.
http://i.imgur.com/FRBX5Fn.png
That actually kinda suits Joyce. But no haircut will ever be Beckier than Becky’s current haircut.
Maybe a poofier version of what she has?
my life is now complete😆
Nice drawing.
🙂
This drawing delivers maximum Becky.
Becky’s reminding me of someone from something else, there, but I can’t figure who…
She kinda looks like Amethyst to me.
Oh my gosh.
Much frill, very flooph.
Lookie at that, Joyce is Rad!!!
And then Carol exploded.
Sweet ^^
Awesome
There is no “wife” duh
There is no Christi, only Zuul!
Maybe there’re two husbands. And they’re married to each other.
If that’s the case, it’s highly unlikely that they got married in India.
Maybe he’s trans?
*Jocelyne shitting in despair in the background*
also high five directly after the nazi thing makes this… somehow worse to me
Yeah, it’s like the characters are less moralistic than the readership or something.
It’s also like one person writes every character, and it didn’t have to go there
Well, I guess he could take your advice, and have your readership, or not, and keep the readership he has (including you!).
I really don’t expect him to read this or take my criticism to heart. But I figured I’d state my opinion on what happened in the comments, since that’s what they’re there for. Also, did you imply that if Willis hadn’t made the nazi joke, or if Becky was punished for making it, I’d be the only one left reading? That’s… weird and damning for this entire fan base if true lol
I implied that if Willis liked punishment as much as you, even you probably wouldn’t be reading (because you don’t need him to be you, you already have a you).
I do already have a me! But, in seriousness:
In a way, characters are already abused plenty, just most of the times in ways that are shitty and sad, rather than being called out for things they deserved and are capable of growing past. So, Becky will be abused for pages upon pages for being gay, but never for the real, human errors she makes (which I talked about at length in yesterday’s comments).
I don’t want Becky and other characters to be punished because it makes me happy when these characters are sad. But when a character does something shitty or rude and an availability for a less black and white conflict comes up, I get frustrated when the opportunity isn’t taken.
So, when becky mentions nazis at high volume in a family restaurant, and the comic rewards her (indirectly) with a high five? Color me dissatisfied with the joke. (which is a shame, because the high five is really cute! but the last comic spoiled it for me)
But yes, Willis is not me and I am not Willis, so naturally I’m not going to like or approve of his work 100% of the time. This is one of those times.
The comic isn’t rewarding her with a high five for the joke. Life and story is not linear like that. Jocelyne is showing her some compassion by not holding the joke against her; he probably knows that’s her defense mechanism and that she’s feeling really vulnerable right now.
What you’re seeing is not an example of Becky getting rewarded for something, it’s an example of Jocelyne being forgiving and understanding. And let’s be real: a Hitler Youth joke is in extremely poor taste, but it’s also not the worst thing she could have done ever. So she doesn’t really need to experience extensive punishment . . . besides, there’s still likely to be tension for her with John and then with Joyce’s parents again and then also when she gets back to campus and finds out she’s being evicted and there’s likely to be a little drama with her and Dina thanks to Sarah’s big mouth soooooooo cut the kid some slack, willya? She IS just a kid and they say stupid, insensitive things.
He reads all. Never know when an asshole’s gonna crop up and need redacting.
True! I had some of my stuff deleted yesterday for talking about the same issue.
Wow, you must have said some fucked up shit for that to happen.
Don’t think so. It was attached to someone else’s big rant about how they hated the joke. Apparently they were from a country that was invaded by nazis, and really didn’t like the common joke that is: blonde/blue eyed people are nazis. Since this person apparently looked that way.
He said something on his Twitter page about that person having been banned before. I checked his Twitter because it had looked to me like he was just trying to silence a (queer) dissenting voice. But apparently it wasn’t what was said but who said it.
Yeah, that was a person who in the previous weeks had been super obnoxious about Carla’s gender dysphoria, rooting for Mary, and was an ongoing jerk to other people in the comments. They escaped the spam filter by changing their IP, I put them back.
That makes a lot of sense.
^^ she, I meant she for Jocelyne. Pronouns, I know them.
I get what you’re saying here, but to me this feels like it’s part of the pattern of Becky doing something rude or inconsiderate, but we cut her slack because she’s young/just came out. This one instance is just the most egregious, so I said something. That being said I really don’t like the age argument, since I’m only a year older than Becky is now but I realize why you wouldn’t do something like that. People younger than Becky know that too. It’s a reason, kind of, just like her being nervous is a reason, but I’m not really sure if it’s a worthwhile excuse.
Um, question.
Since you’re trying to spin this instance into proof of Becky the constant fuck up who says awful things (and far more in excess to Joyce, who regularly says super fucked up things), what’s the other sign of this?
Like, she said a joke that hurt readers to a group of non-jewish individuals who were not at all likely to be hurt in that way by her joke. What’s the other instances of her doing something unforgivably awful to the point that it perfectly makes sense not to extend her forgiveness for her age or to view her as a dangerous character to witness as a reader?
Please. Elaborate.
We’ve had this conversation before, I dont really think it needs to be rehashed all over again. I stated why I didn’t like Becky, in her behavior, how the comic treats her, and how the comments treats her. You disagreed. Thats basically the long and short of it. Becky made a nazi joke. Becky did other bad things. Becky is flawed, and I dont like her.
Yeah, but see, that was a conversation focusing mostly on things like, as you said yesterday, people not calling her out on “you can be obnoxious and inconsiderate, and got jealous/manipulative around your best friend because she found another girl to be platonic friends with.”
That’s not really “I can’t trust her because she makes things on the level of nazi jokes on the regular” level.
That’s a big leap. So I presumed I missed something regarding her making comments that were hurtful to the readers like that. Maybe I didn’t.
And if I didn’t, then I’ll admit to being a bit baffled by the intensity of your response seeing as how it would be just an angry response to the notion of reading teenagers who fuck up. And that seems unlikely considering you regularly read and enjoy a comic about teenagers fucking up.
So yeah. Confused and in need of some clarification.
Not to speak for Russ, but personally I find it completely undesirable to argue a point in long bursts of comments. Especially knowing either side won’t budge. It’s not fun to type all of it. It’s not fun to read all of it. And at the end of the day it’s obvious no one’s mind’ll be changed. People will just get tired and give up trying to convince the other. At least that’s true for myself.
In one of my other comments, I stated that this is somewhat in line with the other things she’s done “rude, obnoxious, manipulation ect” but also is a step above the norm. And, to be fair, my comments here weren’t intense, so much that I made a comment, and got a flood of replies, and replied to all of them in kind.
But, for where I stand, it’s not really “I can’t trust her because she makes things on the level of nazi jokes on the regular”, but more, “I have problems with this character, and the way the narrative and comments dont like to criticize her for these things, rather than attacking her for being gay. Her willingness to make a nazi joke, nervous or not, does not change my opinion of her, but certainly reinforces the misgivings I already have.”
Yotomoe-
That’s fair. I apologize
Russ-
Thank you so much. I really was confused and that helped clarify things greatly.
and @zach, that makes much more sense, considering that what was said this time really wasn’t shitty or meant to attack people, but outrage over the joke. I didn’t know that they were banned previously, so this gives a lot of context.
@Yotome, yeah, you’re not wrong, this isn’t going to many places. None of them good anyway.
@Cerb, I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from now. Sorry if It’s hard to understand sometimes, I have trouble conveying exactly what I want to say on this board since the threads often get crossed and mixed up with one another. I’m glad we can agree to disagree, since a debate over a character or a joke is fine, but I have no desire to fight you as a person.
Ditto.
@Yotomoe, I read your posts with interest, including the discussions with others, like yesterday’s. AND I’m glad that I finally discovered your art!
*Blush*
Hello 🙂
I don’t really have anything to add to the debate (basically I love Becky, but I agree with the points you made), but I wanted to say it was nice reading you on the last two pages. You and other people made very interesting points and you guys are part of what makes this comic great.
And now I’m gonna go back a few chapters to see if you pointed out something I may have missed. Thanks Russ, I look forward to read your other comments 😀
Oh thank you so much! I’m sorry that i come across so negatively about a character you like a lot, but i’m happy that you enjoyed what each of us had to say!
If she’s just offered Becky a high five, I doubt she’s taking it that personally.
I dont care if this character is offended or not, I care that real people in the comments were pissed about this joke just being thrown out there, and in the next strip the character who made it was given a high five. It’s like the universe says Becky can do no wrong, and the comments agree!
Seems like John and Jocelyne just took the high road and ignored the comment. Good for them, in a way.
Maybe. I think nazi’s were just a punchline we weren’t meant to think about too much in the last strip and that’s that, so I dont think them ignoring the comment out of politeness was really the intent.
No, it says the people she’s with are used to Becky and don’t need to make a big deal whenever she says something’s done. Becky’s not new to them, they’ve known her for like twenty years, this is old hat for them.
So then no on in-universe sees an issue with that kind of behavior, since it’s old hat and no one gives a shit. That still doesn’t really look good
Not everyone freaks out over Nazi jokes. And even if they normally would Becky’s te kind of person you just expect dumb shit to come out of her mouth so you just ignore it and move on.
Which is why I don’t like Becky, but then if I say that people try to excuse it and call me oversensitive or homophobic for… not liking Becky. It’s a shame, because she’s been in some of the best strips and had some of the funniest jokes, but strips like the last one pull me right back out of it, and make me like her even less because there’s potential there.
I used to live with a German flatmate (in a big shared flat wih four people total) and telling nazi jokes when he was in the next room was one of our primary sources of entertainment…
Do bear in mind they come from a family capable of blaming “people like Dorothy” (atheists) for the Holocaust and claiming Hitler was maybe partly Jewish in that context.
I don’t think these characters are going to freak out over a Hitler joke on some kind of principle. They could have been offended since it was directed at them, but Jocelyne at least seems to have taken it as being about Becky’s fear of being among people who might well want to kill her for being who she is and responds by reassuring her.
The stuff about the Nazi joke would have a lot more weight if it were coming from someone who hasn’t admitted that they hate Becky. Someone who hasn’t jumped on her for the tiniest little thing, acting like she should be perfect while none of the other characters have to be perfect.
You kinda ruined it by hating on her for every tiny slight, so that, when she does something that’s at least arguably shitty, you don’t have anywhere to go.
And if you don’t want to start an argument about it, why did you post in the comments section at all? The point is to discuss things with other people.
The thing people ignore is that you choose who you like or don’t like. To choose to dislike Becky–not just see her as someone with flaws, but to actually dislike her–is something I find offensive. She is not evil. She is someone going through a hard time and trying to cope.
And this applies to everyone, not just people coming out. It pisses me off when people hate on Danny or Amber or Ruth (though I have a little more sympathy for who she was before) or Walky or anyone.
I don’t understand why good people would choose to dislike good people. I get why your gut may make you not like them, but then I would see it as your responsibility to try and understand them.
But, you don’t. You dislike them. You judge them as being bad. And that bothers me.
I’m sorry that it bothers you, I really am. Unfortunately, not everyone gets along, and sometimes people dislike each other. Even good people can dislike each other, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Real people sometimes dislike other real people for nothing at all sometimes, and that’s okay, because it’s impossible to like everyone.
That being said, i try not to dislike anyone in real life, because I dont have a full scope by which to analyze them, and real people aren’t really deserving of judgment anyway (barring criminals and the like).
Becky is not real. Becky is a character, and she’s one that I happen to dislike. it doesn’t make anything I say invalid or wrong, it gives me motivation to speak at all. I dont want to fight anyone! I’m all for a healthy discussion about characters, but when it gets nasty and personal is when I want to back out.
I realize that people like Becky exist. And, if I knew someone like her, I would try my best to be more understanding due to circumstances. But she’s not real, she’s a character that’s been crafted for us to look at and think about. And I dont like her as she stands. I’ve even made it a point to say that as the comic progresses my opinion may change depending on her arc, but that’s about it.
Becky is a character in a piece of fiction. I’m sorry if my opinion on her bothers you, but it’s really not your place to tell me how to feel about her.
And I’m sorry if I came off as telling you what to think or as hating on you.
If you’ll go back and read what I said, you’ll see I never tell you what to think. I tell you why I don’t think it makes any sense. I tell you that it bothers me. But I never say that you that you are required to stop. (I do, in another post, point out that the logic you use would mean you’d have to hate other characters. But that’s not the same thing. It’s just pointing out how you seem inconsistent.)
Sure, I would like you to stop–but is there anything wrong with that? You want Willis to stop “letting Becky off,” and for people in the comments to stop ignoring the bad things Becky does. Is that you telling them how to think and act?
And I know Becky is fictional. But, to discuss her as having motivations, actions, and other such things, we have to pretend she is real. That is the only context in which “I hate Becky” or “I dislike Becky” makes sense, since you use her actions as evidence. If we don’t pretend she is real, those are just things Willis wrote.
When you actually pulled back and made it about Willis, that was a whole lot better, and I very much appreciate it. I didn’t address any of that in my comment, since that’s not what I was talking about. But I guess I should have, so I didn’t come across as attacking you.
The part I addressed is that you still have to add that part about hating Becky, and I don’t get it. I don’t get why you won’t apply the same thing you said you’d do in real life to the character while you are pretending she is real. I don’t get why you choose to hate the character rather than try to understand her–especially when the comic is going out of its way to get you to understand her. It seems like you’re setting yourself up to constantly be frustrated.
As for your claims about real real life, I disagree. At least, I do when you equate dislike and hate, as you have in your comments. A good person may not particularly like another good person, but they don’t hate or actively dislike a good person. When that happens, one or both have done something wrong–and the good thing to do is to try and work it out, not hate. Even if you continue to disagree, you can respect each other.
And there’s no way it’s okay to dislike or hate someone for “no reason at all.” That’s where bigotry starts. I have no legitimate reason to dislike this black person, but I do. It’s not remotely hard to make “liking” someone the default, and it is what people should do. There’s a reason “love your neighbor as yourself” is touted as good even outside of Christianity.
You see, those are the fundamental beliefs that bother me. They are exactly what I see in you saying you hate Becky, and exactly what I disagree with. If you would not hate Becky if she were real, then I would argue you don’t actually believe those statements.
I guess where we fundamentally disagree is in you not applying what you would to a real Becky to a fictional Becky. Especially when the comic goes out of its way to help you understand her.
I kinda see the comic as being a way to let people know about the struggles of real life people. Being able to understand Becky means being able to understand people in real life. To hate her is to not understand them.
You’re right, there is a fundamental disconnect between what i think it is to dislike someone, and what you do, and maybe that’s where we’re coming up with this issue.
First though, I’d like to say that i never said i hated Becky. I said I dont want to hate Becky, which I said because I realize that after aaaaaalll of these comments it may seem that way. I did say that I dislike her, and that’s true.
i also want to point out what I said by “no reason at all” because that got muddled. In reality, when I said no reason, I meant things like “i talk to this person. They haven’t offended me, or down anything wrong, but their attitudes and personality make me not want to be around them” because sometimes people just don’t get along. Bigotry doesn’t start at no reason at all either, because bigotry has a reason: it’s disliking or hating someone for what they are, what they cannot control (gay, black, ect.)
So there’s a fundamental difference between “I dont like Paul because he’s sometimes talks for too long and I dont like long conversations” and “I dont like Paul because he’s Chinese”
Maybe though, by your logic these tw people would talk about why person A doesn’t like Paul, and Paul would give person A more space because they’re an introvert, and then they’d like each other. That’d be nice! But that’s not what always happens.
So, down do what it means to dislike and hate. I think you put more weight onto the word dislike than I do, which is where we get the most issues. To me, if you don’t like being around some people, then you don’t like them. And everyone has people that they don’t like to be around, which is a natural thing to want. It doesn’t mean you want them to be hurt, sad, or have misfortune (though if you’ve only read some of what I wrote it sounds like I enjoy having characters suffer, untrue!).
Hatred can be those things listed above, and it’s a more active form of dislike. So that’s what those words mean to me.
I understand that this probably hasn’t swayed you or anything, but hopefully you understand where I’m coming from a bit better now.
I kind of unironically love this exchange. There’s a lot of compassion here even though there are strong feelings. And yet there is a lot attempt to explain one’s self and try to understand the other. And just a lot of good points surrounding the inadequacies of language in places.
It just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
I don’t usually do this, but I did call Jocelyn being into Becky’s joke and being on Becky’s side. Is there no chance that you’ll reconsider?
Probably not?
I think that I understand that better now having read your further comments.
She says the high five is for the coming out rather than the joke, so it’s neither a support nor a condemnation for the joke.
Sadly, given that they’ve all been raised in a violently anti-semitic version of Christianity (hell, let us not forget their dad’s “Hitler was partially Jewish” bullshittery), I doubt they’d be tuned in to a jewish perspective of Holocaust jokes.
Does that make it all right for the readers who were hurt? No. And I’m sorry for the comic that that happened. But I don’t think these are the people to have that sort of thing on their radar.
I know the high five was for coming out, but the juxtaposition between what she said and what happens to her is jarring. But yeah, not even an embarrassed nudge from Joyce, our main character who definitely knows nazis are bad and screaming about them in public is wrong, and who’s had aversive reactions to Becky’s shenanigans for much less. It… looks bad. To me, that basically says that nazis were a throw away joke used for funzies, and that it doesn’t really matter enough to warrant people to think about it. That sucks.
Sadly, that was probably Willis’s intent. That it was just a throwaway gag about how white and threatening Becky, Joyce, and Willis’s hometown was. And a bit of a character moment of Becky up-playing the nervous inappropriateness because she’s freaking the fuck out.
I know that doesn’t make it better, especially for those who feel hurt by it.
It doesn’t, but Im glad you acknowledge that it was shitty, rather than continuously defending it. Thank you.
Didn’t defend it in the first place. Defended Becky, not the joke, though admittedly I didn’t see it as a big deal at first until those who were jewish noted how they felt about it. Even called out someone who made an insensitive comment at someone who was hurt by the joke.
I still think Becky receives a disproportionate amount of shit and that her every fuckup is treated way worse than most other characters, but I fully acknowledge this particular joke had hurtful impact and that sucks.
On the other hand, Jocelyn did quickly and efficiently change the subject. Not wanting a confrontation doesn’t mean approving, even if it may be overly passive (also, acceptance of LGBT people by her siblings might have been more important to her than worrying about terrible jokes).
Also although it is a dumb and rude and offensive joke, it isn’t really that surprising to me that it was just a throw away and that a bunch of people didn’t notice. People make bad jokes and most of the time, no one notices or cares enough to confront it. Regarding Joyce, she has had a lot of other things to focus on, and was frantically texting when Becky was talking.
Also, totally agree with Cerb about it showing just how white and threatening the town is
I get what you’re saying, but Jocelyn noticing the issue and quickly changing the subject isn’t exactly what’s being conveyed here, at least not to me. it feels more like an oversight than anything else.
Yeah, even I wouldn’t say certainly that she was definitely doing so, only that it could be, and even if unintentional,changing the subject probably stopped further discussion.
@Marie, @Russ: I can understand the arguments that Becky’s joke is being treated as a throw away or that Jocelyn — & John? — disapprove but won’t be trolled by it Yet without asserting that its the only plausible interpretation I still like to think that Jocelyn got Becky’s joke in the same way that I did, because I grew up with people who would, both Jewish and Not. And I did not see that the people upset by Becky broke down as Jews + Allies — Notwithstanding that it took me most of the day to realize how that joke was no joke to Sig, which gave me pause.
Becky was definitely being a jerk yesterday, in that she was saying loud, hurtful things to mask that she’s scared out of her wits so she preemptively treats John and Jocelyne as potential enemies. Becky, like all people in her age group, can be an asshole sometimes, and she’s not always going to get called out for it.
Jocelyne here is just trying to convey both that she’s proud of Becky for coming out, and that she doesn’t have to be scared of her and John. She’s welcome here and she can chill out.
I guess the problem with getting a scene where Becky is called out is that Becky primarily interacts with Joyce and Dina, who think the world of her, and the main recipient of Becky’s doucheness, Dorothy, is too prone to taking the high road with things and probably does think Becky’s situation justifies some of her behaviour, if she recognizes it at all. When Becky told Billie there was no such thing as bisexuality she pretty much instantly soured on her and hasn’t really changed that, Walky said he wanted to punch her in the face when she insulted Becky, and Danny called her obnoxious after she barged into Dorothy’s room during their intently private conversation, so it’s not like everybody thinks Becky is this perfect angelic child who can do no wrong. They’re just more willing to cut her some slack because she’s in a bad situation, and that’s not gonna last forever.
*Walky wanted to punch Becky in the face when she insulted Dorothy.
And when it ends, I’ll be happy to see Becky grow more as a person like the other problematic characters are forced to (re: most of the cast.)
I dont want to hate Becky, but until the time comes where the grace period ends (idk how long it’s been real time, but it feels like a LONG TIME) I’ll be bothered. Afterwards? Possibly much less bothered!
Then don’t. If you don’t want to hate her, then don’t. When you actively choose to do so–especially if you tell people about it (which means you aren’t trying to stop)–it becomes hard to believe that you don’t enjoy hating her.
I’m not cutting Becky any slack. I’m simply looking to see if she’s actively trying to hurt people. And she’s not. I therefore have no legitimate reason to hate her.
There’s a huge, huge, HUGE difference between finding what she says to be insensitive and hating her or even disliking her.
If we go this route, then you have to hate Joyce, Sal, Sarah, Amber, Walky, Danny, Ethan, etc. About the only sensitive person in the comic is Dorothy.
I have an uncle who just says what’s on his mind. And he’s not too bright. He’ll say things that bug the crap out of me. But I don’t hate him. He means well. And there’s not an ounce of hate in his whole body.
I note that you don’t seem to hate Willis, and yet he’s responsible for not only what Becky says, but how others in the comic react. Yet you are okay with just focusing on the specifics there, instead of hating on the person.
Hell, I’d argue that the joke is actually worse outside the comic than in it. In the comic, there’s no reason to think that there’s anyone present who would be particularly hurt. But the real world, there are people from whom the comparison is bad.
I’d actually cut you more slack for being mad at Willis than being so mad that you hate Becky.
Okay, no. No no no no nooooooooooo. Stop trying to control how I feel about a character because you disagree. I dont need to hate any of the other characters for any reason other than my own personal take on them, I dont need to hate Willis for a piece of work her created, and I dont need more slack.
I disagree with the choices he makes with Becky, and thus I dont like Becky. Willis is a real human being that makes a lot of other work that I do enjoy, so I read his comic. It doesn’t make him perfect or always right, (neither am I or anyone else, naturally) so there will be aspects, characters and strips that I dont like.
I’m sorry you disagree, and it’s clear that my opinion has upset you, but I am under no obligation to like any character or any person just because other people do.
@Cerberus: since this will post somewhere below, its Re the Anti-Semitism of the Brown Parents brand of Christianity, because I don’t know about that and that might interfere with my interpretations of whats going on here and I’m curious besides. EG #1 Carol/Joyce/Hank : Atheists Like Dorothy brought us Hitler / Dorothy is Jewish, Partly (Mischling? Nuremberg Laws Jewish?) / Hitler was “part Jewish” so she IS Hitler — I laughed at this as a mare’s nest of ignorance & confused thinking. But I’m gathering that it’s not something to laugh off?
Well, it is a mare’s nest of ignorance, but it’s also a lot of the viewpoints of at least the brand of Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist Rapturist Chrsitianity I grew up surrounded by. Hitler was sold as someone who was half-Jewish and atheist and whose greatest negative affects were against Christians, or at least the negative affects most worth paying attention to.
This worldview had bizarre views of Jewish people and Israel. It was important to love Israel and support it, not out of love of Jewish people in it, but rather because Israel needs to expand its borders to meet “prophecy” and thus trigger the end of the world.
Once this happens, a set number of Jews will convert to Christianity thus becoming “perfected”, while the rest devolve into their “inherent natures” including their blood lust for murdering Christian babies and the like (the whole blood libel thing).
Additionally, a lot of the worldview is very entwined with “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” style conspiracy theories, leading to a weird state of affairs, where they cheer Israel’s leaders at the pulpit while simultaneously selling notions of a jewish-controlled media secretly paving the way for the Antichrist. And it’s the reason for the popularization of the words “liberal” or “international bankers” to serve as dog-whistles for Jewish (see all the conservative Christians complaining about the “liberal media” or cries about how “international bankers” are trying to make the country Marxist and whatnot).
These are both some good readings on the subject and Fred Clark of Slacktivist has written a lot on the subject:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2013/05/10/nra-chaim-is-one-of-my-jewish-characters/
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9405/antisemitism.html
Its’… not quite at the level of outright murder, but Joyce believes in the Rapture. A pretty commonly talked about, and JOYOUSLY talked about, part of the rapture, is the death of the JEws. Some token number (I think a million) are ‘prophesied’ to convert, and the rest will die under satan’s yoke then burn in hell for eternity, as they should (For any of a number of bullshit claims). It’s completely disrespectful, and their various brands of prophecy are why they donate heavily to the construction of a Third Temple (See, we can’t have the end times without one). AFAIK, the jewish people who are the targets of this tend to just politely ignore the real motives, but they’re perfectly well aware of them. It’s just that the end times is, you know, not happening.
But it /is/ still anti-semitic – it’s viewing the Jewish people as nothing but a vehicle for the end times, and ultimately viewing any who holds onto their religious heritage as worthy of death for that (To be fair, this is true of EVERYONE who isn’t the right form of Real, True, Christian, but also to be fair, that can also feed into existing discrimination besides that too). There is a long fucking history of especially Christians saying or believing this shit, and acting on it. They don’t have enough power, so evangelicals are RELATIVELY harmless compared to, yanno, the nazis, but that’s a high bar. They can still absolutely be titanic assholes.
Yeah, the Rapture stuff is completely fucked up. Though as you say, it also applies to all non-Christians, not just Jews. All the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and all the other smaller religions as well as the atheists and all of the other Christians who don’t quite qualify according to whoever’s talking about it.
The Jews do have a specific place in the theory though, which does point it more at them. This also lies behind a lot of evangelical support for Israel in general, not just the Third Temple. Israel needs to exist for the war that’s described in Revelations. Well that and they tend to hate Muslims more.
Of course, in a way, sudden nature of it and the effects on global politics aside, the Rapture really isn’t any worse than the more mainstream “Only Christians go to heaven, everyone else goes to hell and eternal torture.”
Yup, all of these.
It’s all about being pro-Israel, but viewing actual jews like either covert secret enemies trying to “ruin” your country or as useful pawns who will either be converted or slaughtered when the Rapture comes.
OTOH, while they certainly base some evil policies on this, I can’t get upset about the Rapture theology itself. It’s too silly.
The best part of it all? It isn’t anywhere in the Christian scriptures. The whole thing comes from a questionable translation of a single line in one of the epistles about Christians ‘meeting God in the air’ after death – and IIRC, the passage was not discussing the End Times, just the deaths of individuals, and used a lot of other allegorical language throughout.
There’s a line in Matthew that’s usually claimed as well. The doctrine only really dates to the 19th century as well, with some development in the 18th.
OTOH a lot of Christian theology is only loosely derived from the Bible. I’ve often wondered what you’d get if you could rerun the experiment – let Christianity develop again from its roots and see how different the results would be.
Kind of a thought experiment, since you couldn’t actually do it, but give the Bible to multiple different isolated groups with no prior knowledge of Christianity. Check back in a couple hundred years. See if there’s any resemblance to our current understanding or to each other.
I was never taught that version of the Rapture. Due to God’s covenant, (and God’s word can never be broken) Jesus will come back and the Jewish people will be saved. When they see him come back, they will embrace him.
Before this, they’ll have a hard life, hiding in caves and not taking the Mark. But it’s only seven years, and they’ll survive. And when they finally see their Messiah doing what their Messiah is supposed to do, they will accept Him.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking one version of the Rapture is the only one. Or even the more common one.
p. sure that being the centerpiece of Left Behind makes it the most common by default. This notwithstanding that there’s a lot of basically identical ones to it, from the perspective of people who don’t care about minor differences in order.
Also, fyi: The version you’re dictating is, in many ways, not really /better/. “Messiah” is a doctrine that was INVENTED by jewish people who set what orthodoxy would /be/. They know what it means better than you. Iesos failed the relevant definition of a messiah – he didn’t drive the Romans from Israel. They aren’t going to convert when they ‘finally see their messiah doing what the messiah was supposed to do’. They /already/ run Israel.
@Cerberus, @Rutee, @the jeff — is there a way to make an emoji for being utterly gob smacked? And is it known that the Brown’s and Becky come from this particular brand of FUBAR millieu?
I would have thought that folks should have “Christian pity” (is that it?) For those doomed for the sulfurous pit …. but I gather, notsomuch?
Seems kind of … mean? Hypocritical? Conspiratorial? To egg Israel on to Build the Third Temple if it’s just so they’ll end up in the pit.
I have long been confident that I don’t have a ticket for The Rapture (though I have read that Calvin said that God could save even me if God has chosen to do so), and I was attracted to this thing I read about whereby non-Rapture-worthy wretches sign up to take care of the dogs and cats of those who will ascend, because the pooches and cats have to remain because they don’t have souls, or something like that, even though I’ve known plenty of dogs and cats I’d rather spend eternity with over some of the people I’ve known.
I’m dribbling now because …
In theory, by doctrine, they should have pity for those so doomed. Said pity often turns into attempts to convert them. In the worst cases in the past, it’s turned to forced conversion – because beatings and torture are still better for the person involved if it saves them from Hell.
Even beyond that though, from their point of view it really will be a glorious day. The end of suffering and tribulation on earth. Sure, those not saved will be swept into Hell, but they’re going there anyway. Regrettable, but necessary for the greater good.
Me? I’m an atheist. If they’re right, whether the Rapture happens in my lifetime or not, I’m still going to Hell.
So, can’t make Eternal Paradise for The Few without Roasting the Many for Eternity. I’d ask why, but I suppose that the answer is “ineffability”? Maybe that’s a way of dealing with the problem of the Universe looking like it was designed by an x-path. My grandfather, after his experience as a rifleman in battles in which young men slaughtered each other by the tens of thousands AND coming back to his wfe and 3 young children and other family and friends massacred and his village destroyed said that he didn’t care if God existed or not: he figured not, but if God does exist AND allowed that kind of stuff, he didn’t want anything to do with G. I spose he failed The Test? Irony is that when he died I was still a kid and prayed every night for months that he was in Heaven with God and was Happy at last (no one’d taught me any prayers, I sort of made up my own from what I’d picked up on tv). I do still miss him. And, dang, I’ve made myself cry again….
Anyway, maybe I do lack the necessary cultural capital to interpret a Hitler Youth joke — challenge? — in Brownville.
not everyone feels the same way about nazi jokes as you do, sadly, which is why jocelyn isnt mad at becky and probably thought the joke was mildly funny even. in my country, nazi jokes are fun and if you dont think one of the jokes are fun you just ignore the joke. so, in this comic that is supposed to represent more or less real life, you want becky to trip and hit her head for making a joke that you personally didnt enjoy? everyone who ever does something that you think is wrong (even if it might not be) should be punished? thats a real scary way of thinking and ill stay away from you now
@skdk, I wonder, what country is yours? I’m in the USA.
im too sensitive about stuff like this i know, but ill just say northern europe. all those countries are pretty similar anyway
@skdk, actually, I asked where you are because I’m genuinely interested in a place/culture where Nazi jokes are apppr r cited or ignored, without any negative attitude. As to all those countries being pretty similar, a Norwegian guy once told me that Swedes are …hm; I’ll stop there for the sake of дружба народов.
You… clearly didn’t read everything i wrote, since someone else made a very similar point above and I talked about what I actually want out of Becky and the comic at large. It’s understandable, since there’s a lot to read and it’s all over this little thread-thing, but don’t try to paint me as some monster because you didn’t bother to understand my point.
It doesn’t feel very nice, does it? But it’s exactly what you do to Becky. You paint her as horrible because you don’t try to understand her.
The way you feel is the way I feel when I see people shitting on Becky. Granted, it’s vicarious, since I’m not Becky and Becky isn’t real. But it’s still the same feeling.
And I’m not alone. I can tell that at least Cerberus feels the same way. And I wouldn’t put it past the other people, either.
I’ve wanted to actually say this sort of thing before, but I hold off because I don’t actually hate you, and I’m not sure that making the point is worth it.
But now that someone else has said it, maybe you can get it.
Becky is a cartoon character.
Russ is an actual person. He is allowed to dislike Becky the cartoon character.
Stop.
No. He’s not. Hate is wrong. If you can hate someone for certain actions in a comic, you will hate them in the real world, too.
I loathe this type of apologia.
If it’s just a comic, then he doesn’t have a right to be upset about the Nazi comment, now does he? But it’s not. It has something to do with the real world.
This type of apologia is just so stupid. We talk about these characters as if they are real. It’s the whole point of being able to discuss anything at all.
The whole topic is premised on the idea that we are pretending these are real people. You don’t get to say “It’s just cartoon” as a cop out. Because that could be used anywhere.
There is, perhaps, a crucial difference between a real person taking issue with something said by a cartoon character, and getting mad at a real person for not liking a cartoon character.
You assumed my gender. You’re right, but you shouldn’t do that in case you’re wrong.
Um trlkly, please don’t do that, especially not on my behalf. Russ is not obligated to like Becky nor should he be attacked for that.
I do firmly believe that Becky is consistently given less slack than other similar characters, but that doesn’t mean everyone criticizing her behavior is going to be some asshole whining about $20 haircuts and “loud coming outs”.
I get the frustration. Believe me, I do, but don’t be a douche.
In case that isn’t clear: I don’t want to say that to you (PLURAL) because I don’t hate any of you, and thus the claim is untrue. But I’ve wanted to say it to make a point about how hurtful it is.
I’m not singling you out, and I don’t secretly think you or anyone are a horrible person. Hell, until you said that you regularly talk about hating Becky, I didn’t even know you did: I don’t go to any extra effort to remember names on forums.
I’ve replied to you in two other areas, so now we’re going to sound repetitious because of the time lapse and the way the comments are formatted. But yeah, my response to what you’re saying are above. Sorry if they sound aggressive, I’m trying my best not to fight you personally because I’m sure you’re very nice.
Damnit Joc, Now we can never eat here again.
Panel 3, do you think Becky is just surprised that a Brown would praise her decision, or does she suspect?
I’d say no.
Think she’s just surprised and happy to be met with a bit of support. Good to know it’s not just her and Joyce against all of La Porte Indiana.
I think the beat panel showing Becky thinking for a second indicates she suspects something, but she’s probably making the same mistake as Ethan did.
Unfortunately Becky’s ideas about trans people are probably based on the kind of nasty stuff floating around these days.
Yeah, Becky has gotten way more open-minded since rejecting a lot of how she was raised, but she was still probably raised with the “trans people molesting children in bathrooms” junk.
…what? That’s a stereotype?
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
That was quite literally the justification the governor of North Carolina gave for why House Bill 2 needed to be passed and signed so urgently.
If it’s not the main stereotype about us, it will be by the time this comic finishes getting through this weekend.
Also why the trans rights bill up here in the North was killed, after a clause was inserted that basically made the bill do the opposite of the intention (THANKS DONALD PLETT for values of “thanks” = “fuck you”). It would’ve prohibited trans people from using the bathroom associated with their gender and explicitly refused them protection from discrimination in bathrooms, same-gender housing, prisons, and gyms among a few other things. Y’know, the places the bill was written for because they’re the most dangerous for trans folk.
Haven’t you been paying attention to what’s going on in NC and TN?
I read an article linked here, raged for a bit, and had mostly forgotten about it by now. I did notice the “privacy of bathrooms” excuse but assumed the implication was that a straight person might pretend to be trans just so they could go ogle people in the other gender’s room.
CONTENT WARNING: DEPICTIONS AND LINKS TO TRANSPHOBIA
Nope, implication was that “straight men” will “pretend to be trans women” in order to access good ol boys’s wives and daughters while they aren’t around to protect them. It’s part of an all-court demonization press.
Hell, the attack ads for these sorts of bills are not at all subtle about the implication they make about trans women:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/10/19/hero_trans_bathroom_battle_campaign_for_houston_ad_is_most_transphobic_yet.html
Which really really sucks and is really really scary. Especially since I have trans friends in NC who are directly affected by laws like HB2.
I think the implication is that certain… people… think that trans people are actually cisgender people indulging in an elaborate ruse so they can ogle and/or assault folks in the “other” bathroom.
This, of course, is nonsense they came up with to justify treating trans folks like dirt. Which is pure asshattery.
A lot of people just can’t get their heads around the idea that other peoples’ minds are fundamentally different from theirs, not just like theirs with the dials on different settings.
NP-
Well, yeah, everyone knows that it’s just so hard to find pictures of naked people in this day and age…
But yeah, it’s a convenient demonization to justify targeting us as the next scapegoat group to hate for the anti-gay crowd to keep them from moving on. Basically a new target to obsess about for the Toedads and Carols of the world.
Question: do the malignantnutters believe that Trans people are all faking or that non-Trans will masquerade as Trans so that they can walk into bathrooms and then break down the doors to the stalls or … or … or…does not compute, eeally. Is there a good term for people who obsess over things like this?
Near as I can tell, that they’re all some weird kind of perverts and who knows what perverts will get up to.
Much like homosexuality is a perverted choice. A sin and a temptation to resist.
Content Warning: So much transphobia
fogel-
Yes.
In the view of the people making these laws, trans people are all deluded liars who are an extreme form of “pervert” beyond even the “evils” of homosexuality. As such, all manner of perversion is welcome to these evil-doers. So, all of us are lying men just trying to get the access of the wrong bathroom and since there is no good reason for that in their eyes, it must be because we’re trying to access something in there, i.e. little girls. When we’re not doing that, we’re trying to trick straight men into “becoming gay”.
This is patently bullshit, but that’s what’s being sold at a national level.
And the worst part about it is that there’s a number of individuals who’ve served as gatekeepers for transitioning who’ve lent “scientific” credence for these worldviews, selling for instance a model of “transsexuality” that argues all trans people (i.e. all trans women, because trans men and non-binary get frequently treated as non-existent in these bigoted worldviews) are either “transsexuals” (i.e. femme gay men trying to escape homophobia and thus make it easier to have sex with straight men (because there’s not a staggering amount of trans women murdered every year out of straight fears of trans women sexually existing)) or “autogynephiles” (i.e. straight men who are just so obsessed with vaginas that they fetishize being women in order to act out their “sick fantasies” and “trick” poor assuming lesbians into sleeping with penises.
Hell, one of the “researchers” peddling that slop of shit has been extensively cited by the Family Research Council in a paean to state legislatures to pass more bathroom bills while also nearly getting nominated for a Lambda specifically on the merit of their “work regarding the trans community”.
The ignorance is deep and scary and forms the sort of stuff Jocelyne is scared of coming out to and that made Carla so snarky and separated from everyone else.
🙁
I am … having a hard time thinking of what to say other than “I have been EXTREMELY sheltered/privileged.”
(And maybe that if such people had an ounce of logic between them they’d realize that no one would CHOOSE to be Trans in a society cursed by the likes of them if that wasn’t just who/how they are — except that perhaps that sounds as if I mean that Trans folk would/should choose to be Notso if they could choose, which isn’t what I mean, notwithstanding that its not some kind of “lifestyle” choice anyway, because even if gender (or orientation) were a choice, how is it any of their business anyway?)
I’m hoping that they learned about trans people in a positive way while they were learning about bi people (depending if they were just looking at sexualities or if it was general LGBT exploration), so even if she doesn’t get it she’ll be like ‘okay, I know that’s a thing.’ (of course it will still probably be very painful if Becky gets it because Joyce still won’t)
I think Joyce learned a fair amount about LGBT stuff when looking for information on Ethan and Becky’s behalves.
Honestly, even with an Actual Lesbian(tm) teaching the course, I would be startled if they had much information on trans people. If they had information current to the last fifteen years I would have to blame the fact that this is fiction, because there’s no way in hell that would happen in real life.
Trans stuff beyond the very, very basics- and sometimes not even that- doesn’t tend to get disseminated as part of LGBT stuff. There’s not even much point getting into the reasons. You basically have to go explicitly looking for it.
Yeah, the T is super ignored.
The first time I ever heard of it in any significant capacity (beyond extremely shameful jokes)? That one time Linkara mentioned it in an opening credits gag.
That opening credit gag was literally the first time in my life I heard a joke by a cis man about trans issues that didn’t treat trans identity as the butt of the joke.
I’m aware (and I’m also very aware of the amount of LGB that are transphobic), but I meant because they were freely googling and probably came across various terms, as well as things like the phrase LGBT in general, and thusly looking up the basics on trans identities and at the very least getting that they are a real thing.
(also, because it may be one point of confusion, ‘they’ both here and in my original reply was supposed to be Becky and Dina, when they were learning on their own and discovered that ‘apparently liking both is a thing’)
(@NSE, this was)
Ahh, okay. Yeah, they might or might not, hopefully they found some good info if this is gonna lead where we’re all hoping it might…
The longer Joyce isn’t dating Walky is the longer she’ll face the prospect of needing her mom to cook for her her whole life! 😉
And Jocelyne’s brain just short-circuited.
So I guess she’s not fond of indian food. After all, not many people can handle their spicy food.
She’s just a picky eater in general.
She dissects her tacos before eating them because she doesn’t like it when foods mix.
…so maybe it’s the complex sauces she can’t handle. Dabbing all the masala off your goat is time-consuming. Wait, goat?!
Joyce is notoriously picky. Her friends at IU are all amazed but her siblings would be well aware of just how picky she is.
Joyce is so picky she uses a butter knife to keep her peas and mashed potatoes separated.
But does she make a point all of one food before starting the next?
I don’t remember her doing that, but she did disassemble a taco.
I assumed brumagem made that part up for comedy, but… Ick, yoy people let the peas and taters mix? Blech!
Don’t ever eat shepherd’s pie, then. 😉 But seriously, maybe try mixing the peas in with the mashed potatoes (and whatever else’s on your plate) next time, even if only for a mouthful. “Dog’s dinner” (as my mum used to call it when we did that as kids) is awesome.
(Actually I am like 80% sure I’ve seen Joyce do exactly this in-comic)
I did it as a child to try to mask the taste and texture of peas.
Seriously. Peas are the worst.
Yes.
Well, no, cheese is, but peas are the second worst.
You are a crazy person. You’re supposed to mix potatoes and peas to give the potatoes flavour. (And make the peas easier to eat.)
Speaking of Indian food: Potato & pea samosas.
Damn it. Am I going to have to order takeout tonight?
Well, sure. How else would you keep them separated? You could build a little barrier with the carrots, I suppose…
But then the potato gets on the carrots! D: D: D:
Mix ALL the foods! ALL of them, promiscuously (can I say that?)!!
Oh thank God, at least her brothers seem cool.
*Siblings. Forgot who Jocelyne was for a ‘sec. Apologies.
We’ve only met one of her brothers.
Her other brother is a serial killer/ terrorist.
Cerberus, you seem to be the goto here for this type of info. Is there any circumstance where one could refer to Joycelyn as Joyce’s brother? Like a past tense thing?
My personal stance is no, as she was a girl back in the past, she just wasn’t fully aware yet. Most of the other trans people I’ve personally encountered do much the same.
OK, I did this a few days back, but it was very late and the new comic then came up, so everyone promptly started discussing that instead:
Cerberus, as the Emperor of the Internet, I stand in awe of you. You do not have reason to —you should in fact have several reasons -not- to— have to actively explain these issues to us over and over again. True, I do like to get my information from talking to other people instead of googling it (for one thing, learning by discussion means you retain the information better). And yes, I’m normally all for the principle of XKCD’s strip Ten Thousand. It is a good principle in general.
HOWEVER, I also realize that it is -not- your job to repeatedly having to educate us on transsexuality, asexuality, the differences between -sexual and -romantic, and other related issues. We are and should be capable of finding decent resources out there (my personal go-to is Robot Hugs), and I can only hope that most of come across as genuinely curious and ignorant (which in itself is not a bad thing, see above-linked XKCD), rather than already making judgements. You go above and beyond over and over and over.
And as such, it is my pleasure and honour as the Emperor of the Internet to appoint you as Ambassador of Understanding Humans. Either meaning works, so that makes you twice the ambassador.
With this post comes the Staff of Understanding, which forces everyone in a 30-foot radius to make a saving throw against their Wisdom score, with as +5 bonus. If they -make it, they will realize that hey, maybe it’s a good idea to acknowledge that we are all different, and that the one big sin is when we start thinking of and treating other people as things.
And if they fail it… Well, it’s also an indestructible +6 staff made of heavy oak.
Aaand of course the linking would fail. Let’s try again!
Cerberus, it’s a trick! Don’t accept the office of Ambassador of Understanding Humans!
They’ll send you to Earth!
Pfffft. Earth is a made up place – it’s WAY too silly to exist in real life.
“Mostly harmless.”
Ah, damnit, not again. I’ve already done my Earth shift!
Emperor-
It’s okay. Like, I’m really glad you recognize it’s not my job to educate people on stuff like this, but I actually do enjoy it more times than not and I’m pretty used to being a lot of people’s first experiences with this kind of stuff.
And this community has been really chill about a lot of stuff and is usually not being all “weirdo, justify your humanity” about it, which is nice, but rather more like “hey, guy who studies Bio, can you help us with this Bio question” which is definitely happily novel. So, yeah.
not the freak, but the local expert?
Local -ambassador- now. By imperial decree.
It seemed like too open-ended a question for a search engine to give a proper, simple answer. Asking someone, whom from what I’ve read, is experience in dealing with these questions (for various reasons which I won’t state because I’m afraid I’ll just be chewing on shoe leather without realizing it) seem logical to me. Sorry if I’ve offended anyone.
Oh no, you’ve not offended anyone either. Trust me on that.
All of this was simply about giving proper credits and to acknowledge how Cerberus has always been so willing to answer honest questions like yours, and to teach us about these things in an open dialogue. As I said, people talking to each other is a great way of learning things after all. Especially when the things we are talking about are people.
My whole little over-the-top “ceremony” thing merely had this particular point: That Cerberus (and others too, such as ischemgeek) doing all of this is not something we should take for granted. We are extremely fortunate to have this little comment community here, where we ignorant people* can ask these questions, and where those with the knowledge feel safe enough to answer them like they do. That deserves the imperial equivalent of a high five, don’t you agree?
*To further clarify, I generally don’t use “ignorant” as an insult or synonym for “stupid”, but simply as saying “currently lacking knowledge about this particular subject”.
Sounds about right. I have difficulty enough with social cues is person where there’s more data to have, than just text online. Stupid Autism makes it hard enough on me, and with having a lack of info on interacting with anything that’s not white cis-straight male, I fear offending anyone due to said ignorance.
I’m autistic, too.
You should see my social rules flow charts.
(Yes, I have flow charts for it).
I believe it. I’m a mess if I don’t get enough sleep. People who can get by on less than 9 hours of sleep are lucky.
Hmm. Still a little suspicious of John, but so far he’s doing ok.
One Carol is enough for Joyce, let’s hope he doesn’t act like his mother.
So John’s gay, Jocelyn’s trans, Becky’s gay… Joyce is the only one at the table who isn’t queer. Nice.
So how do you figure John is gay?
I mean he did just add an “i” to Christ. I’m assuming it’s the Christian version of a Canadian girlfriend.
Or another way of spelling “Christy” a moderately common girl’s name.
Well yeah, but my explanation was funnier. =D
It’s actually spelled “Chris T.”.
John got married in India.
“An Indian Wedding” is an anagram for “Did A Winning Dean”.
Ergo John is secretly actually married to a guy named Dean, but it’s okay because he’s a winner.
He’s banging Big Boss?
No, Dean Winchester.
Nah, Anthony McHenry.
I think Rusty would object.
Ehhh, I’m getting bi vibes from her.
So do Sal and Dorothy.
Joyce is giving out vibes? And no one told ME!?
And a free marimba with every order.
Ssssssh, she thinks it’s a curling iron
wow i did nazi that coming
Not thiSS again…
Anne frankly, I think joking about this is in poor taste.
… Heil just see myself out.
I’ll call you an Uber, man.
“What is 7+2”?
“Eight?”
“Nein!!”
If we’re making nazi jokes now, here is the funniest one I know: http://youtu.be/_Jk9633YgKU
Warning: nazi jokes
Okay, guys, seriously. We may need to tone down the Nazi stuff just a bit. I realize it’s all in good fun, but some people experienced real tragedy as a result of these events. My own great-grandfather was killed at Auschwitz…
Got drunk and fell out of the guard tower.
Funniest one I’ve heard:
Hitler wasn’t all bad. He did kill Hitler.
And then there’s this: <a href=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU]Are we the baddies?
The key to joking about anything horrible is to aim at the villains, not the victims.
Dang you people, you made me lol repeatedly!
John is… surprisingly okay so far? I know a bunch of people were afraid he’d turn out to be all bad and stuff, but… man I hope he’s an okay dude. 🙁
I’m becoming increasingly secure in my faith that he’s a good dude.
That makes me nervous.
Yeah, not a blink about the Hitler joke, the Lesbian shout OR his “brother’s” support of said Lesbian.
Cookie for John!
[sound of my heart breaking]
[sound of it breaking again for the last panel]
Something tells me Christi isn’t Christian and that might be why John isn’t the favorite.
That is a distinct possibility, so if we accept that then we’ve got Jonathan who has married outside his religion; after less than six weeks exposure to the “wicked outside world” of IU Joyce herself has stood up to her parents over atheistic and lesbian friends; and while they do not yet know it, Joshua/Jocelyne is the sister Joyce never knew she had. Everything the parents have stood for and tried to install in their offspring has, to their way of thinking, been kicked aside.
Man, I wonder what Jordan has in store.
He’ll turn out to be a member of some sect even Ross would think are dangerous extremists. The kind that are building a giant bunker in an isolated part of Nevada or the Rockies and stocking it with enough weapons to equip a Central American army.
“Hey, want some kool aid?”
Too soon.
Also, it was actually flavor-aid; cultists are cheap bastards.
I’m holding out for “awesome rebel biker”, which would therefore have some influence on Joyce’s fascination with Sal and her motorcycle.
Interesting thought: Sal and Jordan know each other, Jordan being her biker guru.
“Salster? What are you doing here?”
“Dammit, Ah keep tellin’ you not to call me that!”
My money is on “generally irreverent.” I know it’s a long shot, but they can’t all be spectacular disappointments, one of them’s gotta be just a general embarrassment.
My money’s on either socialist or convert to another religion. Maybe male stripper.
Turns out she’s not just Christi. She’s Christ herself. The 2nd coming changed a whole lot of things!
But she’s still short, brown, and very angry.
Historical Christi?
There’s a pretty big Christian community in India, mostly concentrated in Kerala. The fact that John’s wife is named ‘Christi’ is an indicator that she’s Christian; if she was Hindu she’d likely have a Sanskrit name. Likewise, if she was Muslim her name would probably be of Arabic/Farsi/Turkish origin.
Should add ‘possible’ indicator, since Christi could be a nickname for all we know 😛
Or Christi could be an American or Canadian of Indian descent, and her parents gave her a Western sounding name.
Yeah.. My Jewish aunt is named Tina, which derives from Christina. Sometimes people give their kids names without necessarily thinking through the implications.
She really hates it when people point that out, though.
THIS.
I highly doubt that Joyce’s parents would still be on speaking terms with John if they hadn’t met his wife, and even more so if she wasn’t a Christian. For an evangelical Christian of the Brown persuasion, marrying outside of your faith is akin to losing it, which is worse than being gay. They probably aren’t happy that she isn’t white, and might be afraid of how charismatic she is, but if she’s anything like the Indian Christians I know they won’t have the slightest chance of claiming she isn’t Christian.
Thank you and najaru for the information, now I’m thinking that it might be because he’s letting Christi do something other than be a good
love slaveI mean housewife, ‘scuse that Freudian slip. If that comment about her having “another project coming up” is an indication of independent work and not pregnancy.Honestly a little surprised I launched a thread.
And here we get an indication that John may have some secrets of his own floating around. Joyce not meeting her sister in law might be because John is worried about his parents meeting her.
So does anyone else wonder if A) Christi might be Indian and if so, B) what exactly the Brown parents (and by parents I mean mom) might have made of that?
She could very well be both Christian and Indian, in which case Joyce’s parents may not have had a problem with it? IDK. There’s also a relatively large missionary presence in India, so it’s possible ‘Christi’ was doing that sort of work when they met – although the Christian missionaries in India are mostly Catholic.
My idea is that Christi is the Right Kind Of Christian but also of South Asian ancestry, and that the family stress is due to having to act like that’s a good thing, and that race doesn’t matter.
They might not have a problem with it, but they’d probably be obnoxious with trying way too hard to be accepting to the point that they just alienate her. Carol IS the mom who said, “You have a black friend! I can’t wait to tell everyone in the street that my daughter’s not racist!”
Is being annoyingly picky a symptom of being the youngest child? My youngest sister would also die in India, or outside of anywhere but a Friendly’s kids menu.
Maybe it’s less of picky being common for youngest siblings and more of older siblings being more encouraged to grow out of it.
I know that when I was a kid there were several moments when I felt like I was showing myself to be more mature than my younger brother by trying food he wouldn’t touch. Since the youngest siblings have no one to distinguish themselves from, they have less incentive to grow out of it.
That’s just my wild guess, though. Though now that I think about it I did notice that my brother became much less picky when he started dating. I think there may be something to the idea of expressing maturity through giving up picky eating.
Some people just can’t process spicy foods. I grew up in a family that found green bell-peppers and the flavorless kind of paprika to hot to handle. When I discovered hot-sauces, I’m not kidding, they left out newspaper clippings to warn me how I was going to go “tongue deaf” (never have properly functioning tastebuds) if I kept going. That’s right: A two-shakes of Cholula intervention.
(My life is frequently ridiculous.)
my mom was not super imaginative when it came to spices in cooking (even chili, lol), so i grew up kind of leery of even taco bell levels of “hot” and “spicy.” it took a few accidents over the years (like once my friends went on a filiberto’s run, and at some stage in the ordering process my request for a large side of rice was misheard as a large sprite, so a friend gave me his extra arizona burrito and from that day on i’ve been a convert to the church of what i fondly call “dive mexican.” mmmmmm filiberto’s.) but i’ve grown to appreciate more than “the natural flavor” of food.
that being said, joyce wouldn’t necessarily starve in india, she’d just probably live off of naan and the plainest rice she could find.
I went out for a curry with a friend in college, in an exceedingly white-bread Canadian town, and when they asked how hot I wanted it, I explained that I didn’t know how they scaled it, but that I was used to eating curries and wanted one hot enough to make me sweat.
When it arrived, to my very great disappointment, if I tried very hard, I could juuuust taste that they’d used curry in the sauce. It was awful.
So I gave some to my friend to try, and she did the whole
OMG! HOT!!” thing, waving her hands around and bouncing in her seat, while I watched in bafflement. Ends up that her parents just didn’t use spices in their cooking. Like, at all. Like, when they made mashed potatoes, they boiled potatoes and mashed them. No butter. No cream. No pepper.
No SALT.
Laaaame. And a gross disservice to all the amazing food from so many different cultures we are lucky enough to have access to.
I’m not sure that it’s the spicy that’s a problem for her, it’s that things are mixed together. If it was all presented as neat little OCD-ish mounds on a plate…
I’m the oldest of three, and am very picky but not like Joyce. Noone else in the family is picky at all, with most not drawing the line until okra.
I am the youngest of three, and was a very picky eater as a child. Which gives me problems to this day because of how my mother impressed upon me that at someone else’s house you either take what they offer or go hungry.
Not if they’re a military brat. Getting “exposed” to a variety of cultures and cuisines is part and parcel of growing up that way. I can now eat just about anything that doesn’t run away fast enough.
I’m the youngest and would also die in India, but less because I am picky (which I am) and more because I’m allergic to peppers.
I’m a youngest child and I might die in India. Though my dad makes curry from a recipe book I bought from an Indian woman and I can handle that. Anyway, I’m mostly picky due to… Personal issues. A lot of textures of food make it hard to feel comfortable eating them (onions of a certain thickness, watermelon, most fruits actually), and I’m not that adventurous with spices usually. I’m getting better with some help from external forces.
JOCELYNE
INCOMING PAIN TRAIN WOO WOO!
Guys I had developed two separate theories for who Joyce was texting yesterday (I was out of town)
1. Mary knocked out Dorothy and tied her up in the closet and is currently posing as her, Joyce is texting Mary, but thinks she’s texting Dorothy
2. Joyce is texting her Walkyverse counterpart. I mean Walkyverse Joyce would make an awesome mentor for Dumbiverse Joyce.
Let’s find a middle ground between the two; she’s texting Anti-Joyce!
That’s why we only see her texts – there ARE only her texts. Dun-dun-DUUUUUUUNNN….
Joyce is texting Harvey, her invisible rabbit friend. He’s in Canada, that’s why we’ve never met him
I’m just kind of surprised that if John’s really *that* much older than Joyce that he’s only been married for a year. I bet that was a big source of contention between him and their parents. “When are you going to settle down and have some kids?”-type shit.
Yeah, if we assume he’s 26 or 27, since Mr. Brown mentioned John starting grade school 20 years ago, there might be some friction over him not having gotten married say 5 years ago, right after he graduated college.
I assumed he was in his thirties and that he had over a decade on Joyce. It would explain why Joyce was so uncertain about him, he would have been out of the house for most her life.
According to one of the Jocelyne Patreon bonus strips, John was in high school when Carol was pregnant with Joyce, so it’s probably at least a 15 year difference.
Then John has definitely gotten married at a age where his parents would have expected him to already been married for a decade and had several children.
Hence why Jocelyne is the favorite.
Or maybe gotten remarried. Divorce is probably a way to fall out of Carol Brown’s good graces.
Yeah, the thought came to mind last night that John had previously been married, but it didn’t work.
So that would make him about 33?
Do we know the age breakdown of the two middle children? I bet Joyce is the outlier by a wide margin.
Jocelyne doesn’t strike me as that much older and she seemed pretty young in that Patreon strip. I think Jonathon is the outlier.
IIRC, Jordan is between Jocelyne & Joyce?
Yes, the order is John, Joc, Jordan, Joyce.
Boy, girl, boy, girl.
Actually in India, the most popular type of ice-cream is kulfi, and kulfi is not soft at all, it is hard mainly because normal ice-cream ESPECIALLY soft-serve wouldn’t last 30 seconds under an Indian summer while kulfi can handle those same conditions pretty well.
I’m surprised they don’t already advertise kulfi as “The ice-cream that melts in your mouth not in your cone”.
We have way better desserts than kulfi, too 😛 and none of them are spicy
In Mumbai, chocolate is a liquid at room temperature. I first encountered malai kulfi there, which is something I would happily live on.
“It’s not like I wanted a sister my whole life or anything.”
If you listen carefully, you can hear Jocelyne heart cracking in the background. Oof.
Either that, or she just saw the Brown parents walk in and is nervously tracking their approach.
Either way, ow.
‘Party of four.’ This is a kids’ only party.
That’s no guarantee the old timers won’t crash the party.
“Maybe Joyce isn’t a clone of mom after all..”
most people in the comments section: OH BOY I CANT WAIT FOR JOCELYN TO COME OUT” “IM SO EXCITED” Me: WHO HAS JOYCE BEEN TEXTING THIS WHOLE TIME?????????
I assumed Dorothy.
For a totally unexpected evil twist — she is texting ToeDad — but, no, my money is on Dina.
I was guessing Dorothy, or Sarah. Bizarro outside-track bet: Joe.
Joyce did start a text conversation with Joe shortly before leaving.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/sorry-3/
Could be they just kept talking.
Good memory!
I am in love with this page!!!
It will only break your heart.
Indian food and hidden sisters. Sounds like the title of a Mom episode.
The family name was originally Von Braun but Doc’s father changed the name after the first world war…
You know, this recent arc makes me wonder why there are no transgendered Transformers — I mean seriously, this stuff writes itself! Get with it Hasbro!
Because then they might lose a chunk of ther fanbase as parents like Carol prohibit their kids from having anything to do with Transformers? There’s probably already some who do just because it starts with ‘trans.’
Depends on how you do it. Since they’re robots with swappable bodies you could have some switch genders temporarily, while waiting for an appropriate one to be built. The fatc that that would make the character trans would likely slip by a lot of people for a while.
That reminds me of a great Next Generation episode. One with Dr. Crusher and another one of Dax’s people.
I was always sorry when Dr. Crusher didn’t continue on with the new host, and never really understood it. But then, I’m sort of pan, so.
Didn’t she fall in love-Lust when the host of the joined Trill was male and couldn’t deal it when the symbiant transferred to a female host, notwithstanding that the Symbiant-New-Host wanted to continue/pursue a relationship. … or so I’ve heard?
There was one recently. The story was…not exactly a shining beacon of inclusion.
Luckily MTMTE is better in this regard. Same with the Ask Vector Prime column-feature-thing on Facebook.
I’m reminded that there was a story years ago where they explained that Arcee was the only female Transformer ever because she had traumatic gender reassignment surgery to include the concept of gender into the species, whereupon she was driven mad and became a violent psychopath.
I’m guessing we don’t talk about that one anymore.
There IS a transgender Transformer. And she’s my fault.
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Howlback
“fault” seems like the wrong word there.
That last panel!! Oh no, my baby :c I suddenly understand the disarming Brown girls big blue eyes deal people have mentioned. I want to just hug Jocelyne forever and ever.
Also, Becky totally figured it out, right? For all we know she may not even know what being trans is, but she knows something’s up.
Well, I mean, Becky is new to this but she should know supportive non-queer people (read: allies) are a thing.
(Also I know Jocyline is trans I forgot to mention that)
She knows allies are a thing but has yet to encounter an ally who celebrates your being out. And there’s a reason for it: Allies don’t do that, IME. They go all *flowery words* about how much they appreciate you trusting them and etc if they’re sentimental and supportive, or “Okay, cool. Want a cheeto?” if they’re not sentimental but are supportive, or kind of react like Joyce did if they’re homophobic but care about you and want to support you. And if they’ve never had an out queer friend but want to be supportive, expect to get treated like a walking museum of queer for a while.
(and if you’re same gender with them and are coming out to them as non-straight they always always always assume you’re coming out to them because you have a crush on them and you get the pre-emptive, “Oh, well, I’m not gay but…” before the above reactions. And if you’re a woman and coming out as bi to a dude, odds are about 50/50 you’ll get propositioned for a threesome IME. Eeeven though bi =/= poly.)
What allies don’t ever do, even if they’re supportive, is go all *queer fist bump* with you (or in this case more like *queer high five*). They just don’t. Ever, IME. Every “straight” “cis” person I’ve ever come out to who reacted that way came out themself a year or two later.
Sadly, all of this.
I wanted to say something along the lines of “not all allies!” then remembered I’m pan so my past “ally” experiences probably don’t count. XD
I’ve had two good ally experiences and 4 really bad ones. Gay male
The two good ones: Straight best friend actually did go all fist bump after the initial point I was outed. Other straight friend is my reasonable political discussion guy for when my parents are being…. Shoutiest wins the argument.
Trigger warning I think? I’m new to that part of these deals
Four bad ones: Told I need to be castrated, told I don’t count as a man, told that they “don’t agree with it but didn’t have any lost respect for me,” and told that even though I’m gay, I can’t be raped by a woman, because if I’m gay I wouldn’t get it up no matter what.
I suppose the 4 are not actually allies and I’m just having trouble with sorting out my memories about the incidents
@Ischemgeek: you might have just changed the universe by talking about this? Might now be commenters/readers who you’ve psyched up to try a fist bump/high five?
That would be cool. 😀
This was a very interesting thing to read. I have yet to experience someone outing themselves to me, but I thought that a nice, short, matter-of-factly positive acknowledgment would be the way to go if f.ex. one or both of my stepsons declare that they are gay, or is in fact my step-daughter, etc. I thought it would be best by reacting to it like the perfectly normal thing this is, the same way one reacts to being told that one likes cheetos*.
But I guess that this is… Well, I wouldn’t call it bad per se. But it still might feel like a risk to them to actually say something like that to me, and as such, probably deserves a more positive response, like a high five.
Now, they might initiate it in a completely matter-of-factly way to begin with. Like, “Hey dad, I like boys, what’s for dinner?”, but even then, it might very well be a faked matter-of-factness hiding a nervousness beneath. So yeah, a high five is probably the best option.
*On a side note, one thing I miss in USA are good cheezy puffs. Because apparently nobody gave USA the memo that you can use other cheese flavours than cheddar for cheezy puff-style snacks. And cheddar sucks.
Actually, I genuinely don’t mind the “Oh, cool. Want a cheeto?” type of reaction. More my point was that straight ppl don’t understand the urge to celebrate coming out the way queer people do. 🙂
Question: is someone an “Ally” to someone who was a friend before the Outcoming and [just?] continue in that relationship? Well, like Joyce & Becky, I suppose. And Ethan? Is Joyce their Ally as well as their friend or is ally a more impersonal, group level relationship?
My personal opinion on this:
Ally, like goodness (and for that matter, adulting ) in general, isn’t really something you can claim that you are. It’s rather something you -do-, and that you have to keep on doing. (As an aside, if more people remembered that goodness isn’t something you are, I think things would be slightly better)
And as such, I think it’s safe to assume that you will probably do different ally actions depending on who you’re supporting. A friend can probably expect a more personal level of allying than acquaintances and strangers.
For a hypothetical DoA example: While Joyce might now allow an acquaintance lesbian sleep on the floor of her dorm room, only Becky gets to stay in the bed with her.
Re doing vs being: yes. Re ally:friend, what you said is a clear and an interesting interpretation to think about.
The beat panel makes me think Becky is reading the mood from Jocelyne enough to figure out that she’s hiding something, but she’s probably making the same mistake as Ethan did.
Maybe Becky is surmising that “Josh” is gay, hence the support. Taking it on face value that Josh is Joyce’s brother, since she has known “him” for years.
She was new to the concept of ‘Bi”, so trans is just not a thing to her, yet.
Yeah, it totally felt like a queer girl solidarity high-five 🙂
I know! 😀 Eeee, love this page so much!
Me too <33
Ahhh, the thrill of realizing at least two of the people at the table don’t vilify you!
SPOILER: John’s wife doesn’t actually exist.
I see what you did there, alt text.
I had it hiccup on me. I came from today’s posting of It’s Walky, and the alt-text from there (the comic’s title) was here. I was so confused. I had to search the code to figure out why Willis was referencing Sal.
This happened to me the other day and it’s been boggling my brain. Thanks for the explanation! For a couple minutes I was hovering around looking for the SECRET ALT TEXT I JUST SAW IT I SWEAR.
FINALLY
Yay Jocelyne! Yay Becky, this might be the first time someone congratulated her for coming out, how sweet! Aaand poor Jocelyne again. Oh Joyce…one day you’ll learn about your sister.
Also, how interesting… He got married in India? Hm…
It seems that this little meeting is going to be a debut of sorts…interesting…
Wow this update is just full of revelations!!
Jocelyn getting Becky to high-five her may be my single most favorite moment ever in this comic that isn’t violence-against-assholes based. And John and his wedding in India! Wonder if his wife is Indian?
And Joyce’s last remark OMG and Jocelyn is right there. SO MUCH GOOD STUFF.
#EVERYTHINGISHAPPENINGSOMUCH
I know this much: Indian weddings are what the word “awesome” was designed to cover.
Dumbing of Triangle: DAY 14
http://imgur.com/AzTrTKG
Two weeks. It’s been two weeks since our boys in two piece suits edited those strips out of… What was I going with here? Oh yeah!
Old strips still being ported: http://imgur.com/a/7FHYX
This works here more then anywhere else. Triangle smiles should be a Brown family trait.
They’re like portals into a realm beyond.
Ơ̡̮̯͚̩͙̟͙ͯ̎̔̔͋ͩ̃̊r̭̳ͧ͞ ͦͧͬ͏͓̞̟̲̦͔à̢̜̮̳̝̥̩̠̓ͤ̑̕͜ ̮̳͆̓̍ͯ̄͋̈́b̼̼̦̫̺̭̂ͧ̐̾̆̈̊ļ̷̸̬͖̝̖̅ͫä̴̫̤͑̀ͮ́͘n̛̯̻̳͓̽̋ͨ̓ͩ̉̊͑̕k̬͇͔͕ͥ͒̾͊̍̅ͨ̊̀ ͚̳̹̟̻͈̰̈̾͛ͣ̄̂̚v̦̖̗͔̮̜̿̈̑ͤ̊̍ͪ͋ͨo̖͋͒͛͘į̡̛̙̝̹͇͖̫̂͒͗͋̓̊d̻͉̖̯͍ͮ̓͋̐͛ͩ͛̄ͯ̀͠.̘͎͊͒̇͠
You’ve wanted a sister your whole life, Joyce? Well…
Hooray!
So what happens if all of Joyce’s siblings turn out to be QUILTBAG? Will her mother’s head explode?
She’s seen later breaking Toedad out of prison, because “Satan has stolen my family”.
So, did you type that on purpose, or is that a new filter?
I’m thinking that was intentional, because so many other terms get used here without backlash that I don’t think Willis would feel the need (I mean, that could change, but for now…) Also, I’ve seen that acronym in a few different places now, and as an ally who enjoys playing Scrabble, I love the thought that went into it.
What TheGrammarLegionary said. I don’t use it a lot, but it has a couple more letters than LGBT, and also I like the idea of human sexuality being represented by a warm and cozy tote where everyone’s accepted no matter who they are and how they identify.
it’s a lovely idea, isn’t it?
One of the multiple reasons I like this site so much: I learn words new to me.
I’m guessing that Christi is either not Christian, not white, or something else that John feels compelled to hide from his family. Maybe she’s openly bisexual?
Congratulations, Joyce! You’ve got what you’ve always wanted!
Christian, but mixed race with Indian ancestry? That would put her firmy in Carol’s “acceptable but still says insensitive/thoughtless things about her” zone.
my vote is ‘a guy’
Jocelyne: *screaming internally*
Me as a reader: *also screaming internally*
The universe: *is just filled with so much internal screaming*
All of this!
Technically, for the universe, all screaming is internal.
Ok to be fair Joyce isn’t aware of Jocelyn is she ?
No one is. (except Ethan)
Probably, down the road, he shouldn’t let Joyce know that Jocelyn told him before she told Joyce?
And, now that i think about it, how did Jocelyn know that Ethan wouldnt spill the beans, accidentally or intentionally?
Jocelyn knew Erhan wouldn’t spill the beans because Ethan was re-closeting himself to date Joyce, and was therefore already good at keeping secrets. Particularly ones of that nature.
Which also makes me wonder… will Becky accidentally out Jocelyn? I have a feeling Jocelyn might come out to Becky soon, as a show of solidarity. But Becky’s lack of awareness due to her background combined with her tendency to blurt out the first thing that comes into her mind make me think she’s in a very good position to spill the beans.
Re Ethan, yes, I can see that. And Jocelyn has probably gotten pretty good at reading people. Perhaps she won’t come out to Becky before she’s ready to come out.
John might be actually?
Not at all, it’s why this bit is so deliciously dramatic.
Although I’m hoping Joyce repeatedly asking for a sister is some subconscious realization on her part. =P
Still holding out that all of Joyce’s siblings have sexual orientations or gender identities that prevent them from giving her parents grandchildren.
Oh my gosh; this strip has so many awesomes. It has ALL the awesomes!
I just realized that this is the 10th strip in a row to have a trans character in it. There’s an actual streak going on right now.
I love Becky’s face. Clearly no one has said that to her, even at IU, and she especially didn’t expect it from one of the Browns.
Yeah. Even Joyce had to take time to get used to it and fully support. To just have someone out of the blue be all, hell yeah, coming out, rock on, and have that be a Brown? It’s stunned the sass right out of her.
It’s not just that Joyce didn’t, I don’t think even the more liberal or also-queer kids gave her it, probably because they’re used to being out and less-dramatic coming outs and don’t necessarily see the significance of Becky (or, they didn’t learn until after the car chase and ‘congrats on coming out! was overshadowed).
Jocelyn seems great. I’m getting the idea that her parents (and perhaps Joyce, seeing as she lived at home and under their influence still) are the only ones in the family who know the least about her.
I dunno, John introduced her as “Josh” earlier, so I could definitely see her friends knowing all about her, but not her family. Hell, that’s usually the way it plays out with trans kids I’ve mentored. They usually spend a good chunk of time out to everyone at school and in their friend circle before taking the family plunge.
True, I didn’t really catch that (or more likely, forgot). I could argue that John didn’t want to out her aloud and by himself, or slipped up (shitty but possible, especially if it’s new to him as well, also could be related to not outing, and meant not to use a name at all), but I mean, I don’t know that any more than I know that it’s unintentional (although I still hope it’s one of the ‘he knows’ options).
Either way, I still feel like John knows more than their parents do, even if that’s less than everything.
Could be. I suppose we won’t know for sure until later.
Josh is a pretty common nickname for names like Jocelyne (or Joyce), if fact my great aunts nickname was josh, so it might also be a way for John to at least partially respect his sister w/o outing her if he does in fact know she’s trans
Seconding. There’s 0 weird about John not outing Jocelyne out loud to their family on the phone. Even if this was intended to be a coming out conversation (as im very much hoping) it’s still something Jocelyne has the dibs to say herself
I’ve also had a few situations where someone was out to me as trans but not out in general so in private they wanted me to refer to them as correct gender and name but in public they wanted to be deadnamed and misgendered so as not to be outed.
Probably the one and only situation where I would ever deliberately misgender a trans person.
Yep. It’s why at my school we have 2 separate procedures for trans kids. What they prefer to be called internally at the school including pronouns and what they feel safe being called in communications home with the parents.
Mm, this is where I am, except ‘in public’ is more ‘in front of family or friends who don’t know’ (since idgaf about strangers or barely acquaintances). And connecting more to the comic, I plan to come out to a friend next time I see him, and I definitely wouldn’t want an exchange leading up to it like:
“Yep, [MyName] is coming to, we’ll meet you at-”
“Did you just call your spouse someone else’s name??” [in DOA, “your spouse” would be “our brother”]
It would either mean getting outed in an uncomfortable and impersonal way or really awkwardly trying to claim otherwise.
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: John’s not even responding to Becky… that’s interesting. Could mean that Joyce comes first, could mean that his initial hesitation wasn’t as bad as Joyce interpreted it, could mean that he doesn’t even want to deal with her and is partially ignoring her. Curious to see more of him to see where he stands in general.
Panel 2: This is huge.
Like, no joke, Jocelyne is taking a major risk here openly supporting Becky and also full on celebrating her coming out. Hell, she is the first person period who has full-on celebrated her coming out besides her. Plenty who have accepted her and she has been grateful for everyone, but none seeing it as a moment worthy of specific praise.
Sure, she’s taken the opportunity while John’s back is turned and she’s whispering it, but it also means that Jocelyne’s longer hair and slightly femme outfit are indeed part and parcel of her building up her confidence to come out.
And it also means that Jocelyne might actually be taking strength from Becky’s coming out to take more risks with family and test the waters more. After all, if her sister can be so rabidly in support of one LGBT “family” member in defiance of the rest of the family, maybe she can be so for a second.
And it makes me so bloody excited to see if this really will be the dinner she comes out to Joyce at.
Panel 3: Speaking of huge, Becky’s face of amazement here is so utterly evocative. I mean, she’s literally stunned by Jocelyne’s celebration of her. She clearly expected no one in Joyce’s family to do more than just passively tolerate her existence, so to see someone be all “hell yeah” to her is just more than she can process and has fully broken through the terror grin she’s been upkeeping since they stole the car.
This means the world to her and that’s something she’s desperately needed from the last family she feels she has left and hopefully the start of a closer relationship between the two of them.
Panel 4: There you go, Becky, it’s rude to leave a girl hanging on a high five. 😀
Panel 5: Hmm, wife is clearly working and John is far enough away for it to be a day trip out. Maybe John is as separated from the family’s morality as the rest of them.
Panel 6 Part 1: Hmm, wedding in India. So either Christi is Indian or they do missionary work together. Though the fact that they married over there suggests the latter. And family wasn’t invited. Or at least the Joyce part wasn’t. I want to know so much more about John from these little tidbits. Also, heh, respecting his sister’s culinary limitations like a true big bro.
Panel 6, Part 2: If Christi is not white, that could also be a thing. Don’t know if Joyce’s sect is as racist as the one I grew up surrounded by, but if it is, marrying outside your “kind” is seen as akin to committing race treason. So if that’s the case, that could be a reason for John to prioritize not bringing his wife out to see the family.
Panel 6, Part 3: Oh man, that Jocelyne face. Hearing her sister lament that she’s always wanted a sister, enough to risk going to a land without soft-serve, must conjure so much for her. Excitement and hope that Joyce will be able to accept who she is without rejecting her. Pain at the fact that she can’t tell Joyce that she does have a sister. Mulling over whether Joyce has grown enough to fully trust.
It’s just such a powerful character moment and there’s not even any dialogue on her part.
That panel 3 Becky…. Wow
you know, it occurs to me that jocelyne might be a potential link to non-terrible lgbt youth support networks.
You know, I was thinking that Christi might actually be a “Christian” or something like that (which is to say, a dude), but in the morning I’m wondering whether or not she might just practice a different religion.
One of my friends is evangelical, and she used to have some pretty conservative views on that front. And just look at how their parents treated Dorothy’s family.
Panel 6: Extended family is big in India. If Christi is Indian, even 2nd generation Indian-American, going home for the wedding is a real possibility. One friend of mine did. If it was missionary work, I’d suspect it was just him and he met her over there.
As for racism, even if they’re not to the race traitor level, the elder Browns aren’t exactly comfortable with diversity. As others have said, as long as she was Christian (and an acceptable kind of Christian at that) they’d make the effort, but it would be awkward and embarrassing. At best.
Regarding panel 6 part 3: It’s worth remembering that Joyce was on speaker on John & Jocelyne’s end in http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/john-brown/
So Jocelyne heard EXACTLY what Joyce said about Becky there. She has a lot of reason to hope here. Obviously homosexual and trans aren’t the same thing, so there might be some education period (unless Leslie’s class has already gone into it in significant depth), but. Jocelyne has a lot of reason to hope about Joyce.
…And I’ve just given myself a sad thinking about the counterargument that she has just as much reason to not hope just because people in general, especially from this kind of community. :/ *reaches into the comic and hugs Jocelyne*
*also hugs Cerberus because I’ve looked forward to your comments on Jocelyne-related and Carla-related strips*
That’s super true. I forgot about the speaker phone. So yeah, she has a lot of reason to hope that Joyce will be the family member to fully support her, even if the rest of the family doesn’t.
Eeee, so excited and nervous!
Also, ah hell yeah, Jocelyne and Becky super ex-fundie queer team up!
Aww, Jocelyne’s face.
Oh man oh man oh man. What if there’s something “freaky” about the wife? At least, “freaky” in “Momma Brown” terms, because something tells me “Poppa Brown” might be more open if he were given the space to expand his horizons by a certain narrow-viewed wife.
Oh boy Joyce. I mean, oh girl, Joyce.
Wait Jocelyn did ni miss something huge?
Yeah, Jocelyne came out as a trans lady to Ethan during Family Weekend. None of her family knows yet (as far as we know), though, so Joyce is in for a happy surprise!
Woah really how did I miss that? So Josh is a transgirl named jocelyn? So wilx let me go re-read
Yeah, it’s not explicitly stated, just Jocelyn saying they’re not gay, but seemingly not totally brushing off Ethan’s attraction to her, since I think they picked up on it, and the email being for a Jocelyn Brown, not Josh. they didn’t outright say anything to Ethan, but it’s inferred.
I’m pretty sure it’s word of god as well, but that doesn’t necessarily count since it’s not in comic
(Doesn’t count as something one would notice, that is)
Tbf it was possible to miss if you don’t read the comments, she came out by way of (iirc) handing him a card for her blog that listed her name as Jocelyne, not Joshua.
Texted him a link, actually, so it didn’t arrive until after she’d left.
Fair, I wasn’t at all sure about the card part and it felt a little old-fashioned, haha. Texting makes much more sense.
Joyce, your sister has been waiting her whole life for you to meet her.
And I think it might be coming soooon. Eeeeeee.
I’m hoping it will end with Jocelyne leaning on Joyce so she’ll have to hold him up, and Joyce saying “You’re my -sister- now, you’re supposed to help me fight against our evil brothers!”, And Jocelyne being all “I think the evidence disagrees.”
“Joyce, I am your father … I mean sister, dang it!”
I love how Becky just stares at Jocelyne for a second, all like, “Is there subtext?” then just throws it out the window for a grin and a high five. Dang right indeed, Becky.
I think it’s straight disbelief. Like, okay, not dreaming, not being taken back as a joke… wait, double check that I’m not naked in a bed with Joyce, okay, definitely not dreaming, oh hell yeah, this is awesome!
So is Christi also Indian and her religious beliefs lean towards the more common religions found in that area?
…Hey, if you guys get to throw out crazy ideas that might end up true, I don’t see why I can’t, baseless or not. >__>
This is not a baseless idea. I am thinking this too.
I LOVE how Becky went into this with ALL the guns blazing, starting up with a Hitler joke and no doubt working herself up to cracks about school shootings or imprisoned fathers, and then got completely derailed by Jocelyne accepting her.
“OK, listen up you fundies. I know you are almost family and given what my father did to me I want to make perfectly clear that I am a LESBIAN and if you don’t…”
“Awesome, high five.”
“…if you… if you don’t… Wait? What?”
I don’t think we’ve seen her as completely nonplussed as in panel three since Dina kissed her. But since it is Becky, it just took her a moment to bounce back and realize that maybe, just maybe these Browns are OK.
YOU GO Jocelyne!!!
Yeah, it’s kinda super cute. Especially since she probably went in guns blazing and running ahead to see the family entirely because she knew that they upset Joyce and damnitt, she promised that she’d be the lightning rod supporting Joyce, not the other way around and she wasn’t going to let them hurt Joyce again about her when she could take the brunt.
It’s adorably misguided.
“adorably misguided” is a pretty good tagline for both Joyce and Becky most of the time.
Yeah, I dunno. It’s probably my own bias since I grew up in Fundie-ville and had a number of friends who had to crawl out of that mess of toxic worldviews, but I have a major softspot for people raised in toxic shit who nonetheless put forward the hard work to grow and recognize their fuckups and try to be better people.
It just makes me want to cheer them on.
Most characters in this comic get a lot of flack – and I’m guilty of it too, sometimes – for being young, hormonal, ignorant and/or misinformed, and making decisions that we – from our privileged position of being semi-omniscent (we can only see what we’re shown, but we see much more than anyone character does), better informed and experienced and nominally more mature and wise – disapprove of. Especially, IMO, when they remind us shamefully of our own past selves and bad decisions at their age.
No, they really don’t know any better. That’s what they’re learning, as we watch. The learning is painful and frustrating for both participants and audience, sometimes. But they, at least, have the excuse that they’re still young, and expected and allowed to be and act stupid and immature. Most of us… do not.
@Bagge: yes! That is just what Becky’s double-take says!
JOCELYNS FAAAAAAAAAACCCEEEEEE
Jocelyn is so damn pretty, and glad she has Becky’s back, too. I am not sure if Becky picked up on anything, or if she just happy that another Brown was supporting her outright and without hesitation. Joyce came around, of course, Mr. Brown seems to be trying, and Mrs. Brown’s a douchecanoe.
There is a McDonald’s in India: https://twitter.com/mcdonaldsindia?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
I dunno if it’s intentional or if it’s just because of your ever-evolving art style but it kinda looks like Jocelyne’s been on HRT since last she showed up?
Can we also talk about how VERY VERY CLEAR it is made in the last panel of the previous strip that Jocelyn and Becky are dressed almost identically?
It’s subtle but awesome!
My theory is that Becky was staying in Jocelyne’s old room and borrowed the cool shirt she found hidden in the back of the closet.
Unlike last time she did that, this one doesn’t have blood on it.
Yet.
I’ve had good money on that for a while.
That’s the most adorable alt text ever created.
Actually, this brings up a really, really important question.
Do they have soft serve in India? Asking for a friend.
Someone up below talked about a special Indian dessert, mentioning that soft serve wouldn’t last 30 seconds in the heat of the Indian summer (not to be confused with American Indian summers… I mean, the “Indian summer” phenomena happening in USA.) A word search would quickly take you to that point.
if jocelyne does not come out to all of them imma be /so grump/
http://i.imgur.com/aoSXg0W.png
This killed me. Im dead now
That which is dead can never die.
I’m double dead. i double died
And with strange aeons, even Death may die.
It’s her curse
“Hey, Billie, want to hang out? I just got my SS uniform back from the dry cleaners!”
“I’m sure you did Nazi that coming”
oh god…
+1
She suffers from Godwinite aiguë now.
Wunderschön und Fantastisch!!
AND, in case you didn’t know, Der Führer was a better painter than Churchill, too.
He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon, Two Coats!
Link fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6llaZefJDc
DUM DUM DUM!
I’m getting the impression that it is a Brown tradition to go off and do or be something far beyond the lifestyle and culture of La Porte. Furthermore, one wonders if, for some reason, John doesn’t feel comfortable bringing Cristi too close to his family.
Meanwhile, Joyce has made Jocelyn feel guilty and doesn’t know it!
Jocelyn did say their parents like her most because they know the LEAST about her, so yeah, John probably either has avoided bringing Cristi by Judgmentville, USA, or she hasn’t wanted to be around.
That was my first thought to “wow, he ran as far as India to get away from here”
Well, doesn’t beat that state which makes people enroll as astronauts to get away from.
might i offer you some joyce in these troubled times? http://sayahomu.tumblr.com/post/141942623309/quit-lookin-at-me-with-them-big-ol-eyes
Awwwwwwwwwwwww. THERE’S the Joyce Dorothy and Sarah desperately wants to have back.
Sorry, the perfect girl is… well, you know the rest.
She will look like that at Becky and Dina when they reunite at the end of the weekend.
Like a bridge over troubled waters …
PLEASE SAY JOCELYN’S COMING OUT. PLEASE SAY JOYCE TAKES IT WELL. YOU HAVE A SISTER JOYCE PLEASE ACCEPT HER AND CELEBRATE
Yes on the first, no on the second. Quite contrary to “taking it well” the knowledge that transsexuals are a thing that exist on top of lesbians and atheists before that will be the last step that finally causes Joyce to implode, ripping a tear in the fabric of space and causing DoA-verse to merge with Walkyverse. This is definitely what Willis has been building up to all this time.
That would only happen if Willis really hates all of his readers and wish to send them into eternal rage.
Aaaah, I wonder if the jordan situation his parent’s don’t like is that he married a non-christian. His parents keep mentioning him like he’s done SOMETHING that’s completely against their ethos.
I keep thinking that he’s just ‘alternative’ – like a goth or something, with dyed hair, tattoos, piercings, and open disrespect for his parents’ lifestyle and rules. Of course, I guess it could be something actually bad, like he’s a violent drug addict who commits armed robberies. I don’t really remember what’s been said about him so far, beyond the fact that he’s apparently gone down what his parents consider a terrible path.
Really, the dyed hair would be enough. Ruins the whole Batman-esque nesting dolls thing they’ve got going on.
I actually got this exact impression too. Have been thinking of Jordan as ‘the goth one’ for a while XD
I could see that, though I’ve been mentally assuming that Jordan is essentially the Willis stand-in, i.e. the kid who drifted away from faith and who gets into arguments with his mom about gay marriage and school shootings and who makes his living as an Internet Pornlord.
I’m not so sure about that, mainly because Joyce is already the Willis stand-in. Her character is pretty auto-biographic as it is, and f.ex. the whole “I would die for you” phone conversation was based on how his own mom would keep saying exactly those words.
And I think even Joyce once said something like “Jordan is too Jordan” as to why she doesn’t speak much with him, and while I can’t remember exactly when, I’m pretty sure it was way after she’d grown to realize that atheists are perfectly normal people after all.
“Jordan is too Jordan” was Jocelyne’s line to the smitten Ethan back on family day
I did right in giving you a slartibeasthood, Button.
Of course, that renders my entire second paragraph moot. I mean, I could speculate about how Jocelyne is probably more open to someone who’s drifted away from faith, etc.; but it’s really no way to really -know- that at this point.
I’m beginning to think that Carol disapproves her children being anything other than a living photocopy of her and Hank in appearance and behaviour. If they fail to do this that’s a mortal sin and she insists that they are cut off completely.
Because it’s impossible for them to do this, the Browns are steadily losing their kids one-by-one. Eventually, I think the point will come where Hank will say “Carol, no matter what you think, I still want my children” and a divorce might follow.
She’s like a slightly less radical version of Toedad. Slightly, because she probably wouldn’t take up a gun against her kid.
But what she does share with toedad is this: She doesn’t truly love her children. What she loves is being a Good Mother, as per her own views of what a Good Mother should be. Having children is her way of serving the Lord the way she was taught she is supposed to serve him. It’s the -ideal- that matters, not the well-being of the actual people involved.
Appearances are more important than realities.
I just realized we’re brewing up a Marvel Civil War type situation, with Joyce, Jocelyn, and Mr Brown on one side, and Mrs Brown and John on the other.
[revisiting the scene immediately after becky’s new haircut]
joyce: “….becky…?”
becky: “who the hell is becky? (it’s me! i the hell am becky! :D)”
Looking forward, I’m not quite sure Mrs Brown approves John’s choice of partner. I’ll leave the reason to your imagination.
I’m thinking more Carol on one side and all the kids on the other, with Hank in the middle trying to hold things together.
Jocelyn is being too cute. >.<
Ow, poor Jocelyne, I can’t even begin to imagine all the things that little comment must have made her feel.
ahhhh my god that face aahhh
That sisters thing has got to be a painful thing to hear.
Jocelyn wishes so much that she could tell Joyce that she HAS a sister but she can’t and this is causing me physical pain
Also the fact that my icon is Carla is awesome and I wish that would never change
oh, that part’s pretty easy. Save the pic, then upload as permanent avatar on your Disqus account. (uh, and create one if you haven’t. )
Gravatar, not Disqus. Although Disqus can automatically grab Gravatars, I don’t think there’s an option to do the other direction.
Jocelyne’s face. Faces. Oy.
I would have loved to see becky do a “ahh right in the feels” reaction to that last comment.
“Hmm, you know, just let us meet up in a big city in India, as long as there’s an US fast food brand I think I can survive”.
(to be honest, I’m not sure a lot of tourist do any better on that front 🙂
—
I think John basically ignored Becky after her rude remark.
I guess that even before Becky turned out to be a dangerous lesbian the older brothers learnt to occasionally tune out that hyperactive, readheaded babble that followed their little sister around.
Of course, one could argue that – rude, stupid comment notwithstanding – an “OMG, Becky, I’m so glad to see you. Sorry about all that shooty-shooty-stuff” would not be amiss, but given that Jocelyne takes care of that right now it’s not a inappropriate for John to focus on Joyce instead.
What rude comment? The one about Hitler youth?
Yes.
Given that John started back in the phone call by trying to get Joyce to ditch Becky (where?) for lunch, I’m not sure it’s just because of the Hitler joke or even the “hyperactive, redheaded babble”.
Maybe I’m cynical, but this strip was too happy. We’re about to get pain.
India has a few branches of MacDonalds, though the menu is…. just a little different. You won’t find even an ounce of beef there. And now I’m desperate to try a McSpicy Paneer. http://www.mcdonaldsindia.com/products.html
India/Indiana
I want some Native America Indian characters to add to the mix as well 🙂
I literally did a happy “Eeee!” and clapped my hands over Jocelyn finding the nerve to congratulate Becky on coming out.
In a homophobic family? That’s a huge risk.
In a homophobic family while queer yourself? That’s a freaking risk the size of a moon.*
*Possibly more so in my case because I have a bad habit of losing my brain-to-mouth filter when I’m emotional and then I blurt out shit that, while true, isn’t necessarily something I want aired at that time and definitely not in that manner.
If you find a good after-market filter please let me know about it because I need one also.
I know. She may have waited until John and Joyce were distracted, but this was still an incredibly risky and brave move on her part and that can’t be emphasized enough.
I think Jocelyne might be getting real fucking close to her “fuck it, I’m coming out” point, especially after how rough Family Weekend was and how often she needed to run away to keep from “saying something she could never take back” there.
It’s simultaneously awesome and terrifying.
omg jocelyns sad face ;-;
“but.. im a sister..” ;-;-;
*nervous laughter from Jocelyn*
“So, Christi, wanna meet my family?”
“Is your sister still closeted?”
“…okay, that’s a no then.”
“Damn right.”
Either that or there’s no Christi and John is gay.
naybe hes married to jesus christ and christi is a cute nickname
Or Christi does exist but Christi is a guy.
Or an amab enbie.
Enbie?
Phonetic spelling “NB”, the abbreviated form of “non-binary”, as in “non-binary gender identity”. I assume.
oh also jocelyn looks sooo much like she was soooo offended by becky yesterday wow can you see hpw upset she is oh my god
ok ill stop now
John seems quite open . Else , Jocelyn wouldn’t do that congratulation thing in this context. I wonder if his wife is of another religión, or maybe atheist, maybe a transexual is toó far of a stretch for this comic . I want those brothers and sisters to unite, break the rules! Besides, I want to know what really happened to Jordán.
i think joyce was texting dorothy but dorothy wasnt answering at all
She was quite clearly responding to a question at the top of panel 3 in the last comic, so a conversation was clearly going on, we were just seeing only one side of it. I expect the other half will appear in a later comic.
i see it more as her venting and not writing all that grammatically correct because shes chatting and venting out her feelings and thoughts
wait… I’m confused, what does soft serve have to do with wanting to have a sister?
Only thing she could eat in India, where she could have gone to the wedding to meet her sister-in-law. Of course, that’s not why she hasn’t met her since they’ve been back.
ohh, yeah that makes a lot of sense. Joyce having a new sister in law somehow completely went over my head, lol.
– Soft serve is a food that Joyce can eat.
– Soft serve is (presumably) available in India
– Joyce can survive in India by eating soft serve (and not Indian food, which has stuff in it).
– By surviving in India, Joyce can meet Christi, who is her sister in law.
– Implied: John is a poop-face who doesn’t bring Christi and visit Joyce in Indiana so they can spend awesome sister-time together, but instead take her to India where they have Indian food and Joyce will have to live on soft serve just to meet her sister.
– Not implied because Joyce doesn’t know it: YOUR SISTER IS SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, JOYCE, AND YOU ARE BREAKING HER HEAAAAART
Joyce has, as far as she knows, three brothers, and has always wanted to have a sister.
So her sister-in-law, John’s wife Christi, would be this ‘sister’ for her, but the two haven’t met yet.
John and Christi married about a year ago, in India, and Joyce wasn’t present for the wedding. One of the reasons, or at least the excuse they used, was that Joyce being a very picky eater, she would have nothing to eat there.
She’s now saying she would be willing to eat only soft serve while in India (the only thing she guesses would be present and she would be willing to eat), just so she could see this “new sister” she got.
Which reminds us just how intensely Joyce values family.
“I WILL EAT SOFT SERVE FOR A SISTER!!!”
(which reminds me off: “I’M EATING ALL THE SUSHI FOR YOUUUUUUU, BECKY”)
But would you eat a Klondike Bar for a sister?
But what if the sister wants the soft-serve herself?
Sister fight!
Is having a sister one of those things that only sounds good if you don’t?
I’m starting to ship Becky and Joyclyn (if she’s a lesbian.)
*Jocelyn – I can’t spell.
It doesn’t help that the standard Firefox English dictionary doesn’t recognise ‘Jocelyn’ as a word.
Try “Jocelyne”.
Jocelyne told Ethan she’s not gay.
That high five is such a great moment, and you can see how much it means to Becky to have someone from the world she used to know say “Hey! You’re great just the way you are! You have nothing to be ashamed about.”
With Jocelyne, there’s no equivocation, guilt or hostility, just a wholehearted supportive affirmation, because she gets it, and knows how brave Becky’s been.
FWIW, we don’t know what story Carol has told her other children and, thus, what they think happened that day at IU. John may be understandably nervous about being around the predatory deviant who got Ross arrested with her lies after he intervened and stopped her from seducing Joyce.
Somebody help me – when did we find out about Jocelyn?
We found out about Jocelyne here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/writer/
It’s subtle, but there’s also the alt-text and the fact the tag immediately changed from “Joshua” to “Jocelyne” and David Willis’s multiple confirmations in the comments and his twitter and tumblr.
Speaking of which, what does the middle J in JocelyneJBrown stand for?
We don’t know. It wasn’t revealed yet.
Jesus?
Maybe the same as the J in Rocket J Squirrel and Bulwinkle J Moose … and Wally J Cat (who was a good creature, rest his soul).
Thanks! I always read on mobile so I miss the alt text
On mobile devices, if you tap the blank space on either side of the navigation arrows below the strip, it’ll pop up the hovertext.
It works on my Fire, at least.
Omg thank you!!
I can’t tell you the strip number (but you can search the tags), but it was waaaaay back when parents day (or whatever you call it) at campus, during her interactions with Ethan.
Are we going to find out all of Joyce’s siblings are secretly gay or trans?
Poor Jocelyne 🙁 That’s got to hurt bad, especially since Becky is out. I really hope she’s okay.
On yesterday’s nazi joke: Willis made a post about it, here: https://tmblr.co/Z9FhQx24CSG6y For those who were disturbed by it, maybe it will help assuage your feelings. Or maybe not – where I’m from our Hitler jokes are about Hitler, not about comparing people to Hitler, but for me that joke was just horrible and in poor taste, not actually disturbing. Still, couldn’t hurt the read (I hope).
Also, I propose we henceforth refer to this meeting as the “lunch where we Jocelyne is gutpunched over and over again,” because right now we’re two for two.
Wow! That all makes a lot of sense and does a really good job of owning up the reader impact of the joke.
Also, woo, I got confirmation of the theory that Becky ups the “wacky” factor to 11 when she’s scared and is thus most likely to slip into the inappropriateness she was raised in in those moments. As well, as the theory that this is something she is growing out of as she learns which jokes are and aren’t appropriate (a common refrain for any teenager being exposed to the larger world). That’s a pretty cool bonus.
Though, I would love to hear from people who were hurt by the joke yesterday on whether or not they feel Willis’s post addresses their experiences adequately (not that they owe anyone that one way or another).
I imagine one of the most frustrating things for an artist is having to explain your art, so I appreciate that he decided to do so.
I felt okay with the strip because I think I got it. Becky’s just being loud and obnoxious because that’s how she deals with her fear. Characters can be dicks sometimes.
Not to deny how people felt, of course. They’re totally entitled to that and nobody should try and take that away from them. There’s been and will be sequences that I find hurtful where other people don’t, and I think that any work of art that tries to tackle important issues will on occasion cause that reaction in people.
I don’t think that’s the point – I felt, if not okay, at least not personally offended by the joke, but then again, I, like Joyce, “would be okay” (except for my atheism, but religious beliefs are easy enough to fake), nor am I ever told “hey, you look like a nazi.”
I expect it’d be more gutwrenching if you’re regularly told “hey, by virtue of how your genes turned out, you’re just like those guys who killed a shitload of people who were just going about their daily lives,” ESPECIALLY if you happen to be one of those people (we had at least two jews with blonde hair and blue eyes yesterday commenting how terrible it was for them because they get those exact type of comments in real life).
For me, it was just like Mary’s “I’m taking you to the boys wing where you belong” to Carla – it offends me in the basis of terribleness, but I’m not nor was I ever actually endangered by any of it, but at least back then no-one was in the comments defending Mary (the thinnest of silver linings, I have found it).
TL; DR: I can see why people would have a legitimate reason to feel bad about yesterday’s strip, and it’s therefore not my place to say what will or will not smooth those feelings over (even though my original post could come off otherwise, now that I read it a second time, so eurgh).
Oh there were people defending Mary’s comment back then and there’s been a steady stream of people intentionally minimizing the comment to hate on Carla for reacting to it. A number have been banned, but not all of them.
But it wasn’t something where the narrative was also saying it wasn’t that big of a deal, so I definitely feel for folks like Sig on that one and extend all the *hugs* I can.
I missed THOSE defenders (I promis to aim better next time).
There really is no shit so stupid that some people won’t type it, is there?
“If you think she was a shithead, well, you’re right.” Good. It’s *not* a phase-state where she can’t be a shithead because she checks the right demographic boxes.
It’s still about 6 paragraphs of “what you real-life people have to understand to accomodate this puppet I draw”, to 2 on ‘this is what I’ve come to understand about people (like some people find Nazi Germany offensive,and don’t always accept “But I’m not offended…” as a final word on things- who knew?)” But it’s something, at least.
That sucks. I’m sorry for that. *appropriate gesture of support*
I think a lot of it is the cultural differences he referred to. Which I’m pretty sure isn’t just anti-Semitism or the tolerance of it.
The joke was intended to be obnoxious, but not nearly so far beyond the pale as some people took it. Which I think explains a lot of the clash yesterday. Just how common such things are in your local culture.
Nazi jokes are far from always in bad taste in my experience, as long as the they’re not approving of the Nazi jokes, which they usually aren’t. If that wasn’t the case, I wouldn’t be allowed to enjoy a lot of Jewish humor as was discussed at length yesterday.
Comparing people to Nazis is always insulting and almost always too far over the top, which is where I placed yesterday’s strip. Becky going overboard as she does at times, but not some kind of threat/attack on Jews by her or Willis.
Obviously, mileage varies on that. 🙂
Thank you for the link.
Thank you for the link! While this doesn’t immediately make things okay, it at leasts makes it clear that the comic will acknowledge the joke, and any other behavior that may trigger the criticism to come out. This means that Becky may get an arc where she realizes that some of her behavior hurt people, and can shift the self-loathing she has for her sexuality and presence into a constructive drive for self-improvement. This would be rad.
Does it automatically make the joke justified? I’m unsure, since the comic hasn’t actually acknowledged it yet. Moreover there are other people who I can’t speak for that may never find bringing up nazis in this particular comic as justifiable, at least not in this way, and may consider this to be a mistake through and through. Or they may feel something else! In any case, this post was good to see. While I’m still holding my breath for the pay off, at least I can read the rest of the arc without constantly thinking back to how fucked up and unexplained the last strip was.
(I replied to myself, so I hope this ends up in the right place in the comments)
Don’t thank me. Thank the guy who went to the trouble of asking the question, and Willis for taking the time to answer it, probably while feeding a baby with one hand and wiping vomit with the other (I guess he typed with his nose?) – I’m sure if he took the time to answer every criticism of the comic, he wouldn’t have time for anything else, including making more comic.
Me? I just ctrl+c/ctrl-v’d the whole thing, and I didn’t even go to the trouble of taking my finger off of ctrl in between to do it.
I grew up in what would now might be termed a “white-bread” community.
As kids in the playground we used to sing “Hitler has only got one ball, the other is in the Albert Hall.”
So, yeah. I agree with Willis on the common currency of Hitler jokes in homogenous white communities.
I also think it’s in line with Becky’s psychology at this point.
Also, rather brave of Willis as it opens him up to genuine complaints from non-Americans but also, as we saw from the banned person, non-genuine snarkiness from trolls.
Wow. This site truly is Educational for me.
A) Willis confirmed what slowly dawned on me from comments, namely, that I was misinterpreting Becky’s entrance because I am clueless about this milieu and projected my own onto it.
B) Willis himself learned something I slowly realized but should have realized sooner — I had clues — namely, what Sig was saying … and I seem to have missed someone else who said the same.
C) Im not half so clever as I sometimes think that I am.
D) keep at the mindfulness practices, including those aimed at the impulsiveness, because I am still posting impulsive comments….
E) There are many commenters here who I learn from reading–including some who engage in disputation with each other, rationally, respectfully, with goodwill.
This family is fascinating. As a guy who grew up in a ‘white’ community in Canada, not experiencing much racism or overt religious conflict, I’m blown away that these types of attitudes and family dysfunction exist. More and more I am realizing how naive I have been. I have to say though, Nazi jokes are always in bad taste. Comparing someone to Hitler at anytime, anywhere, is just pathetic. The interwebs are just so full of stupid “you’re like Hitler” comparisons that there’s no reasonable way to take it seriously. Anyone who makes a Hitler comparison is just like Hitler.
I sense sarcasm in that last line.
The Hitler Youth Group doesn’t get mentioned as much in media as, say, the Nazi party or the SS does.
My dad (who is German, obviously) was ten when WWII broke out, and grew up in Nazi Germany. He was a member of the Hitler Youth, because, he says, *everyone* who was a kid in Germany at the time was a member; joining was not optional. However, he describes it as basically being “like Boy Scouts, but with guns.”
I mentioned this to a fellow student who was really interested in WWII at school when I found out, and he was all, like, “Holy shit! Your Dad’s a Nazi!” Which of course is completely wrong; our family never supported the Nazis (not that you can find many people, post-War, who will admit that they did) and had a very hard time of it during and following the war. He has all sorts of interesting stories from the time, some funny, some pretty tragic. Took me about ten years to get the whole story of how he broke his nose, piece by piece, a new piece every few years. The rest of this post isn’t very nice.
He broke his nose because he was riding his bike and hit a pole.
He didn’t see the pole because it was dark.
It was dark because of the blackouts.
He hit the pole because he was going too fast for not being able to see.
He was going too fast because the air raid sirens were going off and he was trying to get to safety before the bombs started dropping.
When he hit the pole in the dark it knocked him off his bike, and saved his life, because the next block over, there was a line of people at a bus stop, and a bomb landed right on them, killing them all. If he hadn’t hit the pole (breaking his nose, and causing him to snore like a chainsaw until he finally got it fixed about fifteen years ago) he would have been biking past when it fell and he would have been killed as well.
So. And there’s the story of how he was passing a subway station after an air raid one day (might have been the same one, not sure) which had had a bomb hit it directly, killing a lot of people, and they were roping in all the passers-by to help dig the bodies (and parts of bodies, a lot of limbs, apparently) out of the wreckage. He was about ten. They grabbed him too anyways.
So he got to spend the rest of the day helping to dig pieces of his dead neighbours out of the rubble; but Deadpool might scar my kids for life. *eyeroll*
Here’s a funnier one to make up for the above post.
Food was extremely scarce during the war, to the point that my Dad and his dad were out scavenging just to be able to eat. They had to steal food to live, and they had to not tell my grandmother it was stolen (when it was) or she would have refused to eaten it, and starved, because the supply lines were down and no food was coming into the city.
So when the neighbourhood realized that a pile of earth outside a nearby government building was actually a buried pile of potatoes, you can imagine the frenzy. My Dad and his dad each grabbed armfuls of potatoes, as did everyone else; but then, on the way back, they decided this was too slow, and so they stole a wheel barrow from a nearby government shed and loaded it up. As they were loading it for a second time (having run the first load home) the police finally showed up.
“These aren’t your potatoes,” they told the crowd. “You can’t take them.”
“Oh, we didn’t realize,” everyone said.
“You have to bring all the potatoes you already took back,” said the police. “You guys!” (to my dad and grandpa) “How many loads did you take?”
“Oh,” said Grandpa, “This is our first load. We just got here.”
“Well, fine. Put it back.”
“Okay. –But what about our wheelbarrow?”
“Fine, you can keep your wheelbarrow.”
And so they got a bunch of potatoes and a wheelbarrow, ha ha.
–Aaand having said that, I realize that telling stories about my Dad’s life in Nazi Germany could absolutely hurt people, given the context of the conversation here over the past day or so. >< I'm an idiot and I apologize; I just thought it might be interesting to hear a couple stories from someone who actually was in the HYG. #NotAllGermans, I guess? *facepalm*
Not sure how much my word is worth, but I appreciated it. Often we dehumanize German citizens for WW2, even to this day, and I feel it important to talk about them as well.
Maybe I’m just thick, but I’m also totally failing to see how those stories could be hurtful.
They’re interesting and useful for understanding that period in time. Annnnd maybe also the German side of my extended family.
Adding in my voice here, as a Norwegian (i.e. one of the countries that got invaded by Germany):
I do not think you crossed a line. Your father is basically just as much a victim of the Nazis as f.ex. my grandparents were, and then some. Sure, the stories were a bit on the dark side, but as Spencer said, they do a great job of getting across the point that he was just a normal kid. A normal kid in a world gone fucking mad.
What Spencer, JQuire, and Emperor Norton said.
Joyce tastes in food remind me of my brother’s. Both like to eat the same thing over and over, are picky eaters, and refuse to try new foods.
okay but Jocelyne in that last panel like SAME. i know that feel
i forgot to read this last night but i just got so excited over everything happening in this i started hitting my chair
jocelyne is so cute as always, i am so weak for her, also please let john be gay
Jocelyne’s face is similar to the face I wear when my sister keeps talking about how stupid a plot point in a book is and I want to tell her it will all make sense when she reads the next book, but if I do that there will be SPOILERS, so I just have to just sit there quietly and listen to her complain about how ANNOYING a character is, and I can’t tell her the character has a good reason to be annoying.
Only in this case it’s Jocelyn’s identity instead of a book, and if she comes out then people might do way worse than yell at her for spoilers. So she clearly has it worse than I do.
I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that Jocelyne will find some kinship with Becky and while she might come out during this scebe, if she doesnt, she may come out to Becky before anyone else.
Queer kids gotta stick together!
I actually had to read the comments to recognize that the wedding was in India, and not, in fact, in Indiana. My brain is weird sometimes.
You’re not the only one.
I think this may be one of my favorite strips of the whole site.
Okay, I didn’t read through every comment so I don’t know if anyone raised it yet, but the comic makes vague references to John’s family, is it possible that the reason his wife is staying away is step-kids? I could totally imagine the Brown parents being upset that their oldest son married a woman who already had kids.
Honestly, there are so many things the Brown parents can be upset about that’s we’re pretty much just wild guessing on how to win the “how will the Browns be horrible people THIS time” at this point.
For instance, it’s entirely possible that their upsetness could be if Christi is an Indian girl, which means the Browns would upset over brown people, and that just make me giggle inside.
Yes, I’m a horrible person, and no, I make no apologies for it.
I suspect that’s the most likely case or at least what we’re supposed to think. There’s no real point in mentioning India unless it’s relevant.
India could just be short-hand for “someplace far away that would entail a lot of travelling time and has rich, spicy food which is why you couldn’t eat decently there and we can’t visit with any regularity.” On the other, that DOES really roll off the tongue, so what would be the point?
It could be just the set up for the joke and an excuse for Joyce not to have met her, but Willis usually does more than that.
Chekov’s India?
Honestly, when I first heard India I thought “long-term mission trip”- not sure if their kind of evangelicals do that, but some of my extended relatives do stuff like leave for South America for a year and a half and some of them wind up going back and having vacations or weddings and things there. (This is not nearly as worldly or unprivileged as it might sound, but.)
The idea that she’s Indian or South Asian or suchlike is a good Occam’s Razor idea, though.
The hovertext entirely predicted my own thoughts – and Jocelyne’s expression is utterly priceless.
Willis, you masterful fiend, I cannot wait to see what happens next, which probably means we’ll be cutting back to Carla or Billie tomorrow. I predict a DYW! in my future.
Christi can be: non-Christian, non-white, male, wrong kind of Christian, liberal, not-American…
Come to think about it, are there *any* people besides the Brown family (as far as she thinks) that would fit Carol’s standards?
Mary?
Next slipshine: Mary/Carol, the “we hate(everyone else)fuck none of us have been waiting for!”
Since Jocelyne is only their favourite child because they still think she is a he I was wondering what was “wrong” with her siblings in the eyes of the Browns. If I’m reading the situation right they don’t like that their son married a woman of colour.
Why would anybody have a problem with India foot? The meat is mainly chicken, it’s rich in spices, their heat is a low mild at hottest… I don’t see the problem.
Speaking as a person who was as picky as Joyce up through most of high school… for someone like Joyce, “rich in spices” is a definite no-no, the fact that there is ANY heat at all is a deal-breaker, and if the chicken comes in a strange foreign soup/sauce, it’s untouchable. Also, rice is weird and unappetizing. She would probably just have to eat naan.
(I love Indian food now.)
“Low mild at hottest”. Ha ha nope. 😀
My mum, while British, was born in India and so we ate a lot of curries growing up. I thought I was pretty used to them, and I know they were a lot hotter than what Indian restaurants are willing to serve little ol’ blonde me. 😀
But one day, while visiting my Gran in London, we went to an Indian restaurant there. They asked how hot I wanted it and I asked for medium but my Gran strongly advised mild, because they didn’t tone them down for Caucasians.
It was so delicious. And so hot I had to scrape the sauce off the meat to be able to eat it. Soooooo good but my mouth just couldn’t take it. 😀
Having said that, I’ve never ever been served a curry that hot in Canada, even when I’ve asked for it to be very hot, so.
Of course it depends on the Caucausians. If you’re more South Western US and you grew up living on chile and hot sauce, you might give the Indians a run for their money. 🙂
Or you could be a freak like me, who grew up eating fairly bland New England food but started loving hot food when exposed to it in my college years. Sadly these days, though I still love it I have to tone it down a little. My stomach is no longer the cast iron it used to be. 🙁
Guys, I just love Jocelyn and Becky interacting.
It is pretty dang great.
The final panel, Jocelyne’s face and Joyce’s sister reference and the blue eyes. Other commenters have praised the combination already, but once more won’t hurt. Thank you, Mr. Willis. Wonderful.
With the amount of people commenting on what will happen next, I feel like I should be taking bets.
*SQUEEEEEE* Jocelyne is so cute in the last panel! “I MUST TELL HER! NAO!”
I wonder if Becky’s thinking “Ooooooh, ‘he’ is a she” or “Ooooooh, he’s gay too”.
She’s probably just thinking ‘holyshit, what, immediate, enthusiastic acceptance?’
I mean…this is Becky we’re talking about, if she’d figured out Joc was trans, or ‘figured out’ that ‘he’ was gay, do you think she’d have not immediately shouted ‘holy crap, you’re (trans)/(gay, too)!?!’
I really think you’re underestimating Becky there. The girl survived this culture. She can obviously keep her mouth shut about certain things.
Aw man, that went from a funny talk about Indian food to drama I had to skip because it made me start feeling sick 😛
I’m going to withhold my opinion in hopes of not encouraging such argument (though some people were nice! That’s good!)
But on spicy food! I’m Chinese and my brother and cousins are crazy about spicy. I’m like a “foreigner mild” and he’s like a “native medium”.
One of my nephews is anti spicy and his big brother is spicier the better. It made the punishment for foul mouthiness rather easy for my sister. The kid who hates spice was given an square inch of jalapeño to eat, instead of soap because he likes eating soap.
But what if the other kid already snuck into the pantry and ate it?
Anyone else getting the sense that Christi might actually be Chris(topher) T.?
jocelyne’s face in the last panel is just like “i…….i’ll be yr sister”
Odd fact: The fundamentalist Christians in my area have a good 1/3rd as Indian as Christian missionaries in my area often go over there, convert, often get married, and move back.
Jocelyne is so cute 🙂
Don’t expect Becky to immediately understand transgender stuff. Remember, she refused to believe that bisexuality was really a thing at first.