Dumbing of Age Book Twelve

Dumbing of Age

A college webcomic by David Willis
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June 14, 2026

Work

by David M Willis on April 4, 2013 at 12:01 am
  • 02 - Guess Who's Coming to Galasso's
└ Tags: ethan, joyce

Discussion (461) ¬

[ Comments RSS ]
  1. Dan
    Dan
    April 4, 2013 at 12:02 am | #

    Yeah, figured.

    • Venapax
      Venapax
      April 4, 2013 at 12:51 am | #

      But still, goddammit.

      • Tucker
        Tucker
        April 4, 2013 at 2:41 am | #

        Agreed.

        • MrSmiley
          MrSmiley
          April 4, 2013 at 6:12 am | #

          didn’t forsee her calling it a blessing though. I had totally forgotten that she was having nightmares about wanting sex…
          which she now knows her boyfriend doesn’t want…
          so now she doesn’t have to worry about … getting what she wants…
          thats some silver lining.

          • Cooledd
            Cooledd
            April 4, 2013 at 2:50 pm | #

            She wants sex but she doesnt?… Paranoid much?…

            • begbert2
              begbert2
              April 4, 2013 at 3:22 pm | #

              She has outright stated that she has lusts and fears the lusts because the lusts she has show that she’s got evil in her because lust is an evil tempting her to do evil. But more that fearing the lusts she fears acting on the lusts because acting on the lusts in much more evil than merely lusting about the acts. So having a boy who will not act on lusts or lust to do the act and will act to prevent her acting on her lusts to an active degree frees her from concern about acting on her lusts. Which is what she wants.

              So no, not paranoid at all, as I trust the above made perfectly clear.

              • Deimir
                Deimir
                April 4, 2013 at 5:27 pm | #

                I…I think I actually followed all that. I’m now concerned for my sanity, but boy howdy do I feel smarter!

                • Saturnwonder
                  Saturnwonder
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:07 pm | #

                  Smarter then a squirrel on a Farris Wheel!!

    • Resne
      Resne
      April 4, 2013 at 3:34 am | #

      It’s really sweet… but misguided.

      • Evan
        Evan
        April 4, 2013 at 10:40 am | #

        I was thinking right around exactly the same thing. I had an “Aww, that’s sweet” coupled with “I don’t actually agree with this idea.”

    • Charles RB
      Charles RB
      April 4, 2013 at 7:41 am | #

      Yeahhhhhhhhhhh.

      She’s outright said she’s keeeping you as a boyfriend because being gay means she doesn’t have to worry about sex and telling you to resist being gay because it’s horrible STOP LOOKING HAPPY, ETHAN!

      • Kirt Dankmyer
        Kirt Dankmyer
        April 4, 2013 at 11:22 am | #

        So, bets on whether a hot guy pulls Ethan away first or a straight dude pulls Joyce away first? Or maybe it will disintegrate on its own?

        • SUGauthor
          SUGauthor
          April 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm | #

          I’m thinking either Amber pulls Ethan out or Sarah pulls Joyce out.

          • Noel Schornhorst
            Noel Schornhorst
            April 4, 2013 at 3:44 pm | #

            Just so long as someone pulls out, or else it’d get awfully awkward after awhile.

            …and messy.

          • Freemage
            Freemage
            April 4, 2013 at 3:45 pm | #

            I vote for them waking up one morning with Mike between them.

            • Splash of Brown
              Splash of Brown
              April 4, 2013 at 5:33 pm | #

              Seconded.

              • Ty Ty
                Ty Ty
                April 4, 2013 at 5:40 pm | #

                Tertiated.

                • Halvhir
                  Halvhir
                  April 9, 2013 at 7:14 am | #

                  Quadrangled.

        • Roborat
          Roborat
          April 5, 2013 at 3:32 pm | #

          They will break up their friendship when they both crush on the same guy. But this being Willis, that guy will be bi, and go out with both of them.

          • Yue Ryong
            Yue Ryong
            August 22, 2014 at 8:17 am | #

            …Oh boy. This… wow. Roomies looms larger than I thought.

  2. GoldStarz
    GoldStarz
    April 4, 2013 at 12:02 am | #

    Joyce, it’s time to take you reality pills!

    • Plasma Mongoose
      Plasma Mongoose
      April 4, 2013 at 12:06 am | #

      Sorry but she already overdosed on the blue pills.

      • GoldStarz
        GoldStarz
        April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

        I guess we’re passed a reality check up, then? Straight to the Emergency Room with her!

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 2:57 am | #

          This girl needs 20 cc’s of reality, stat?

      • Valdrax
        Valdrax
        April 4, 2013 at 12:19 am | #

        Is that why she’s having uncomfortable tingly feelings that she wishes she could stop?

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 2:58 am | #

          No, that’s because she just had a stroke.

          • Jordan
            Jordan
            April 4, 2013 at 12:33 pm | #

            [Insert masturbation joke here]

    • Skull025
      Skull025
      April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

      Perscribing two reality pills and half a history textbook for the headache.

    • HK-A6A7
      HK-A6A7
      April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

      But reality is boring!
      Madness and crazy ideas are way more interesting than that dull reality.

      • Zach
        Zach
        April 4, 2013 at 12:49 am | #

        Science (and hedonism) say otherwise.

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 2:59 am | #

          No, they’re still more interesting. Doesn’t mean she’ll be happier, though.

          • Li
            Li
            April 4, 2013 at 7:43 pm | #

            No way, man. Science is SO much more interesting.

            • HK-A6A7
              HK-A6A7
              April 4, 2013 at 9:05 pm | #

              But science takes too much time to become interesting.
              If you want to make bombs and blow things up into oblivion for fun, I’m afraid you have to learn… Maths (Along with a whole bunch of other stuff, like Chemistry).

              This is why I prefer madness: Is INSTANT!

              • Li
                Li
                April 4, 2013 at 9:13 pm | #

                Bah, who cares about bombs.

                I spent every single day in my Astronomy 101 and 102 classes on the edge of my seat, gripped by the intense majesty of the universe.

                (is that an HK-47 reference, or just a coincidence) (I haven’t played The Old Republic, just the two KotORs)

                • HK-A6A7
                  HK-A6A7
                  April 4, 2013 at 10:31 pm | #

                  Coincidence? Nah, he is my fav character in both KotOR games.
                  Reason I decided to modify the initials of my name to look like an unit from the series of the best robot on the SW universe.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 5, 2013 at 9:46 am | #

                  Aw yeah. <3

    • Wack'd
      Wack'd
      April 4, 2013 at 12:09 am | #

      Eh, she’d probably just hid ’em under her tongue until the nurses looked away.

  3. Lone Wolf
    Lone Wolf
    April 4, 2013 at 12:03 am | #

    … this will end in tears, I just know it.

    • Rognik
      Rognik
      April 4, 2013 at 3:00 am | #

      All the best things do.

    • Sparks
      Sparks
      April 4, 2013 at 2:11 pm | #

      On the plus side, since this isn’t the SEMME-verse, at least it will ONLY end in tears and not a swathe of destruction through the downtown area.

  4. Audiophillie
    Audiophillie
    April 4, 2013 at 12:03 am | #

    See? It’s not such a bad relationship to support.

    • Heavensrun
      Heavensrun
      April 4, 2013 at 12:07 am | #

      I am assuming that’s sarcasm.

      • Audiophillie
        Audiophillie
        April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

        Nope, actually, it isn’t. If she wants to ignore the fact that she’s gay, and he doesn’t mind being with her, and they make each other happy, who’s to say their relationship is bad? Everyone’s idea of love is different.

        • MM
          MM
          April 4, 2013 at 12:11 am | #

          She doesn’t just want to ignore that he’s gay. She wants to “guide” him. And in the meantime, she wants to avoid coming to terms with her own sexuality and what happened at the party. There are certainly worse relationships out there, but overall, this is not a good thing.

          • Audiophillie
            Audiophillie
            April 4, 2013 at 12:14 am | #

            I can agree that it may not be ideal… But what makes a couple happy is their own business. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, I don’t see the issue in it.

            • David
              David
              April 4, 2013 at 12:19 am | #

              Because this will more than likely result in them hurting each other. There is a lot of denial on both sides here, and when that fades and other, more honest emotions come to light, it can only end badly. What happens when Joyce becomes comfortable with her sexuality and want’s to be with Ethan, or vica versa with Ethan and he wants to be with someone else?

              • Audiophillie
                Audiophillie
                April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

                Well then they’ll realize that they made a stupid- albeit happy mistake- grow all the wiser for it, and make better decisions next time. I never said it might not work out- I just said it’s worth the benefit of the doubt.

                • Shobo
                  Shobo
                  April 4, 2013 at 1:26 am | #

                  I agree. They obviously know that this isn’t their ideal relationship. But if it works for both of them, and they aren’t vindictive, I don’t see an issue.

                • Just for kix
                  Just for kix
                  April 4, 2013 at 2:20 am | #

                  Wow, you make it sound too easy like someone can just say, “Oh well, I should have made a better decision, too bad. I will just take the next train.”

                • Audiophillie
                  Audiophillie
                  April 4, 2013 at 2:33 am | #

                  Well, to be fair, that’s kind of what you have to do. Mull over what you did wrong and pick yourself back up. If you spend too long regretting something, you won’t learn as much from it. I have personal experience in that department; things are always much clearer if you don’t spend time beating yourself up for your mistakes.

                • Rognik
                  Rognik
                  April 4, 2013 at 3:06 am | #

                  There are some circumstances you can’t anticipate, and there are some you can. Now that Joyce knows that Ethan is gay, she SHOULD try to find a straight boyfriend. Trying to “help” him will not end with the desired result, and either frustrate them both or end in them being miserable and wasting time they could have spend finding proper partners.

                  This isn’t buying the wrong salad dressing or forgetting to set the alarm. Their relationship is a bad idea. Doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy watching it, but supporting it is not a wise idea.

                • Knight
                  Knight
                  April 4, 2013 at 5:39 am | #

                  I can feel a large amount of “Joyce can ‘fix’ Ethan’s heathen ways with her love and make a perfect husband out of him because he won’t try to defile her pristine body in any way” coming from this…it’s cute in some ways and FRUSTRATING in others. Stock character Joyce is so hard to root for here. I miss Anti-Joyce at moments like this.

                • begbert2
                  begbert2
                  April 4, 2013 at 11:00 am | #

                  “They obviously know that this isn’t their ideal relationship.”

                  Joyce thinks he’s perfect. He’s somebody for her to change any way she likes, and she can use him like a non-sexual blow-up doll to kiss and hug and caress and whatever she wants to do at her own pace.

                  Clearly this is all a good thing, and a prefect premise to base a relationship on.

                • GivenGood
                  GivenGood
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:34 am | #

                  Nah…. Joyce would be vindictive and judgmental in either case and both cases would push her deeper into that fear of sex, and both cases will probably break Ethan’s heart the moment he realizes that all that “acceptance” she was giving him, was just misguided hate for herself and his sexuality, hidden under oceans of denial and her good Christian ideal of “helping” sinners.

                  All in all, it’s a wildly bad, unhelpful idea. Ethan is looking for acceptance, and he’s getting it now, he’s convinced there is no acceptance in being gay and doing gay things, and he’s realized that there is no acceptance in lying about who he is, but he has not realized that there is no acceptance for those who don’t accept themselves. And the moment that Joyce shows her true colors, he will come to the incorrect conclusion that there is NO ACCEPTANCE FOR HIM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

                  Be prepared for an “Ethan attempts Suicide” arc in the future Everybody.

            • Joe
              Joe
              April 4, 2013 at 12:21 am | #

              But it is hurting them. Both of them have issues with their sexuality that they need to deal with, and this is giving them both an excuse to stuff their problems away and pretend they don’t exist.

              • Rognik
                Rognik
                April 4, 2013 at 3:08 am | #

                To be fair, that’s not hurting them, but it’s not letting them prosper or grow as people. It’s… escapism, I guess? It’s not harmful, but it is destructive, if that makes any sense.

                • miyto
                  miyto
                  April 4, 2013 at 1:01 pm | #

                  I would think this escape will:
                  -be temporary (in the end all things are)
                  –hurt at it’s ending
                  –stall for time until:
                  –> the two of them are mature enough to notice the problem
                  —?if they don’t ever notice the problem, they Will Not Grow nor see the need to from this.
                  — When they notice they will hopefully grown enough to live and learn
                  —> It Will still~ Hurt.

            • Zach
              Zach
              April 4, 2013 at 12:29 am | #

              As non sociopaths it is our busyness to warn those close to us that they are hurting themselves and descurage people from hurting others. It is not my right to make you do anything. It IS my right to express my opinion.

            • Wooskie
              Wooskie
              April 4, 2013 at 1:01 am | #

              yeahh, in real life i would buy that, but from the standpoint of someone reading a piece of fiction, we can tell that this will almost definitely end poorly. not to speak on behalf of Willis’ work, but this entire relationship is pretty clearly being set up to make a point about religion & sexuality (& to make jokes).

              • Tynam
                Tynam
                April 4, 2013 at 5:54 am | #

                Nope, wouldn’t buy that in real life. If I considered myself a friend to either of them; I’d be (tactfully) screaming warnings at this point.

                Denial + more denial does not lead anywhere happy, in fiction or in life.

            • Charles RB
              Charles RB
              April 4, 2013 at 7:45 am | #

              It is going to hurt them. He’s now in a relationship where he’s got “temptations” to “resist” instead of learning to deal with, and she’s got a fake boyfriend she dates so she doesn’t have to worry about sex or excessive making-out. It’s such a bad romance that Lady Gaga is retroactively going to name that song Ethan-Joyce.

              • GivenGood
                GivenGood
                April 5, 2013 at 12:41 am | #

                GA GA OH LA LA
                ROMA OH LA LA
                GA GA OH LA LA
                ETHAN JOYCE MESS

                Take all of my brain cancer.

          • FlyingFish
            FlyingFish
            April 4, 2013 at 11:07 am | #

            This COULD successfully morph into a Jamie/Erin situation (see Girls with Slingshots), where the two love and are in love despite total lack of sex.

            But then again, this is Willis we’re talking about, and he shows no mercy to relationships.

            • kagato23
              kagato23
              April 4, 2013 at 11:36 am | #

              Jamie and Erin are honest with each other and have parameters in their relationship that allow them to both have their needs met.

              Joyce wants to change everything Ethan is and Ethan just wants to live the lie. Besides, the root of Joyce’s problem is that she does in fact want sex. And Ethan… well she’s not the one he wants for that. Inevitably, the present situation would devolve from that alone.

            • Gordon
              Gordon
              April 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm | #

              Erin and Jamie’s relationship isn’t just a horse of a different color. It’s a zebra.

              Erin is asexual. Jamie is not. They fulfill each other’s emotional needs, and have an open relationship so that Jamie’s sexual needs, that Erin is unable to fulfill, can be met. They communicate their desires and understand and respect each other’s sexuality. It’s unorthodox by society’s (ludicrous) standards, but it’s completely healthy.

              Ethan is gay. Joyce is straight. They are both unwilling to accept their sexualities and are actively denying them. Even worse, they are using each other to suppress their sexual desires. They have a relationship that is now about Joyce encouraging Ethan to actively suppress his homosexuality, and Joyce feeling safe because she knows Ethan will never want to have sex with her. It’s a relationship based in suppressing something they fear. It’s as far away from healthy as you can get, without involving actual intended abuse.

        • Stranger
          Stranger
          April 4, 2013 at 6:40 am | #

          Dude, its not love, its a combination of delusion and denial. Shes terrified of sex, and he’s a self loathing gay guy, the relationship is abouit them not having to deal with their issues, not love.

      • Audiophillie
        Audiophillie
        April 4, 2013 at 12:09 am | #

        Nope, actually, it isn’t. If she wants to ignore the fact that he’s gay, and he doesn’t mind being with her, and they make each other happy, who’s to say their relationship is bad? Everyone’s idea of love is different.

        • Matt Boyd
          Matt Boyd
          April 4, 2013 at 12:15 am | #

          Judging by today’s mouseover text, the author.

          • nexev
            nexev
            April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

            What makes you say it doesn’t just mean they will all get cancer.

            • Regalli
              Regalli
              April 4, 2013 at 12:35 am | #

              I think Funky Winkerbean does that enough for every other comic, ever.

              • Raoullefere
                Raoullefere
                April 4, 2013 at 1:21 am | #

                I don’t think Willis has it in him to plumb the depths the Funkyverse trolls on a regular basis. Or perhaps I simply desperately hope that’s true. One Funky Winkerbean is too much as-is, and yet, we also have Crankshaft.

          • Foxhack
            Foxhack
            April 4, 2013 at 1:21 am | #

            THESE COMICS HAVE MOUSEOVER TEXT?!

            • Dudeface
              Dudeface
              April 4, 2013 at 1:43 am | #

              don’t worry, it’s a fairly recent development.

            • Noel Schornhorst
              Noel Schornhorst
              April 4, 2013 at 4:08 pm | #

              I didn’t know that either! I had to backtrack for the bonus jokes! It’s well worth it! 😀

          • nitpicker
            nitpicker
            April 4, 2013 at 6:02 am | #

            Yes, but the author comes from a childhood background of extreme judgmentalism, where one takes their own view of the world as the one true one and anyone who acts in opposition to it is obviously in the wrong. That world view may of changed, but the overall habit doesn’t show any signs of waning.

          • Ronnie
            Ronnie
            April 4, 2013 at 4:31 pm | #

            And that is why we have Death of the Author theory! 8D

            /finds the whole pair too cute to nix offhand.

        • Audiophillie
          Audiophillie
          April 4, 2013 at 12:19 am | #

          Yes well, the author also refuses to draw more fanart of my OTP, DannyxSoda Bottle, so I in turn refuse to acknowledge his opinions. Because David obviously doesn’t know what true romance is. It’s dye, carbonated water, and high fructose cornsyrup packed into a plastic bottle.

          • MM
            MM
            April 4, 2013 at 12:22 am | #

            That doesn’t sound like the impression I’ve gotten of Willis from his comics.

          • GivenGood
            GivenGood
            April 5, 2013 at 12:45 am | #

            This is the most sensible thing you’ve said in this thread so far.

            By orders of Magnitude.

        • Regalli
          Regalli
          April 4, 2013 at 12:33 am | #

          Two things. First, Joyce is going to want to have sex with him eventually, we’ve seen that with the dream sequence, and Ethan will not be able to satisfy that. We basically saw how this potentially ends up in the Heyo!verse in Shortpacked with Ethan and Amber. “Threesome?” “Yes, please.” They do both desire sex, so ultimately there’s gonna be some tension there.

          Second, they may be friends, but they’re not in this just for love. Ethan started this so he could essentially get back in the closet. Joyce is happy about this because it means he won’t try to rape her. They’re basically using this relationship as a way to avoid issues they don’t want to deal with. Joyce is going to need to confront the fact that she DOES want to have sex despite thinking it’s immoral, and that she HAS gone through some trauma recently that may not get better until she talks to someone about it. Ethan is going to need to confront the fact that yes, he is gay, and he can’t change that. And as long as he stays with Joyce, it’s going to keep them both from finding relationships that they find fully fulfilling.

          • KKoro
            KKoro
            April 4, 2013 at 1:33 am | #

            Just a question but…what if they DID confront those issues and end up deciding they still just don’t want to have sex despite desiring it? Is it really that wrong to choose not to let your physical desires control you?

            • Tibbsasaurus
              Tibbsasaurus
              April 4, 2013 at 1:50 am | #

              Surely desiring something is the same as wanting it?

              What’s the difference?

              • Rognik
                Rognik
                April 4, 2013 at 3:15 am | #

                Desiring something is what your base instincts tell you. Wanting something is what your conscious mind decides. (at least as far as KKoro seems to be defining them) It’s in part the crux of the Catholic faith.

            • Rognik
              Rognik
              April 4, 2013 at 3:17 am | #

              From what I’ve heard, they will both be miserable in the long term if they continue to deny their basic urges for too long. To a degree, it might not be wrong to deny some baser instincts, but in this case, I think they’ll both just torture themselves for no real gain.

            • Li
              Li
              April 4, 2013 at 11:08 am | #

              But wanting to be with people of the correct gender (for your orientation) is not actually a “base desire” and should not have to be resisted. That you think being openly gay is the same thing as “letting your physical desires control you” also smacks of the over sexualization of gay people.

              E.g., a little boy can be straight and no one will assume that means he has sexual desires. He can just be a boy with a crush. A little boy CANNOT by the same token be gay; he can’t have a harmless six-year-old crush on another boy, it MUST be sexual, and therefore teaching kids that gay folks exist MUST be telling them all the details of anal sex.

          • Audiophillie
            Audiophillie
            April 4, 2013 at 2:27 am | #

            Joyce does want to have sex with Ethan, and I’m sure she knows it, somewhere deep inside that odd little brain of hers. That doesn’t necessarily mean she can’t resist the urges. In fact, it might even make her happier to resist the urges and not have sex with him, and then, once again, who can chastise her for that? This works out for Ethan, because, like you said, he doesn’t want her that way.

            But I have to disagree with you on the point that he’s doing this just to “get back into the closet”. Who’s to say this isn’t a Leslie/Robin situation? Ethan could be entirely gay- with an exception. Besides, he’s not doing this entirely to get back in the closet- he genuinely likes Joyce, and wants to see her happy. That’s why he made the decision to hide his sexuality in the first place.

            Joyce likes him for more reasons other than the fact that he’s guaranteed to not rape her- He puts up with her overly-religious self, to list the biggest reason. Which, in my opinion, would be very hard to come by in any person in the first place.

            Thus, this means their relationship isn’t solely to avoid troublesome issues at all- it’s to try and make each other happy and to make it work.

            Joyce doesn’t need to confront diddly-squat about her sexual desires if she doesn’t consciously want to have sex anyways. On the same point, I agree that she should talk to someone about the whole party scenario- but that’s not exactly necessary either. People can move on from things by themselves, it’s not impossible.

            Ethan has already confronted his sexuality; in front of a whole town, apparently. I don’t think he’s trying to change himself to be straight, though- it’s more like he’s trying to ignore it to make someone he cares about happy. Or, like I said earlier, it could very well be a Leslie/Robin scenario, all over again. Granted, that didn’t exactly end well… But it was happy while it lasted. And that’s what I’d expect out of this.

            As long as he stays with Joyce, they’ll both have to work decently hard to keep the relationship where they want it. It’ll be rough, and it has a high chance of not working out… But it also has a slight chance of being exactly what they both need. And I think that’s enough chance to let it run its course without booing it every time it appears on-screen.

            • Greenygal
              Greenygal
              April 4, 2013 at 3:19 am | #

              Besides, he’s not doing this entirely to get back in the closet- he genuinely likes Joyce, and wants to see her happy. That’s why he made the decision to hide his sexuality in the first place.

              Uh…no, he wants to hide his sexuality because it’s making him unhappy. He made this point pretty clearly for several strips before Joyce wandered by and provided him with an opportunity. And you notice how his explanation to Amber did not feature Joyce at all. I’m not saying he doesn’t like her, he clearly does, but he wants to be straight for his sake, not hers.

              I also think that when the author goes to the trouble of putting up a news post to emphasize that a character is really-truly-yes-I-mean-it gay, the odds of that character being attracted to a member of the opposite sex are exactly zero.

              • Charles RB
                Charles RB
                April 4, 2013 at 7:50 am | #

                “Uh…no, he wants to hide his sexuality because it’s making him unhappy.”

                Exactly. He made that clear, and Joyce is going to help him. He’s going backwards

              • Audiophillie
                Audiophillie
                April 4, 2013 at 7:04 pm | #

                My argument for “he hid his sexuality from Joyce because he likes her rather than because it was making him unhappy” comes from this strip.
                http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/choice-2/
                Ethan made the choice to stay with Joyce, and if Amber hadn’t forced him to come out, he probably never would have said anything.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 8:41 pm | #

                  We all agree that Ethan probably wouldn’t have told Joyce he was gay if not for Amber’s intervention, but that really, really, REALLY doesn’t in any way make him less obviously unhappy with his sexuality.

                  In the very strip you are linking to, Joyce says “Choices can be forever, but desires are transient,” and Ethan says, “I sure hope so.”

                  He isn’t talking about wanting to be with Joyce forever, he’s talking about how much he wants his gay feelings to go away and leave him alone.

                  Let’s look at some more strips, reverse-chronological order:

                  1. “I wish I could just ignore the stuff going on in my pants, shut it up and lock it away forever.”
                  2. “You, my best friend, stopped hanging out with me because my being gay had exhausted you.”
                  3. “We’ve all got worries, right?” (The strained look on his face is because he’s talking about himself and his sexuality, in code. He does this a lot. I think he misses a lot of the things Joyce is saying because he’s so busy thinking about himself. Good way to be in a relationship, btw.) (Also thinking about his sexuality here.)
                  4. “I wish I had [your confidence], especially with the year I’ve been having.”
                  5. “It hasn’t really come up yet. Look, if there’s a manual, please direct me to it.”
                  6. “Y-yeah, I’m not afraid of dying alone and unloved either.” (Extra relevant, so bold!)
                  7. “I guess when you really think about it, history is full of gay men pretending they’re straight, and otherwise leading very important lives! You’re right, if only I had to do it all over again, I’d just keep my frigging mouth shut.” (Notice that he decides to go out with Joyce immediately after this. It is patently obvious that he made the decision to be in the closet first, and THEN picked her to go out with, not the other way around.)
                  8.
                  “I guess I am a little depressed, Mike. It’s just slowly hitting me that finding another Jewish nerd like myself was already hard enough… but now I have to find a gay Jewish nerd to spend my life with. The circumstances of my brain are marginalizing me out of easy happiness.”
                  9.
                  Just from being gay, I’ve lost so many things, like my girlfriend and the esteem of my parents and the likelihood of getting married and having children, and you know what? I’m not losing this friggin chicken sandwich, too.”
                  10. Again, Amber, I’m sorry I ruined our prom night by being gay.”

                  Yeah, I just don’t know where anyone is getting this idea that Ethan is upset about his sexuality and wants to stop being gay from. Totally out of left field, clearly.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 8:43 pm | #

                  We all agree that Ethan probably wouldn’t have told Joyce he was gay if not for Amber’s intervention, but that really, really, REALLY doesn’t in any way make him less obviously unhappy with his sexuality.

                  In the very strip you are linking to, Joyce says “Choices can be forever, but desires are transient,” and Ethan says, “I sure hope so.”

                  He isn’t talking about wanting to be with Joyce forever, he’s talking about how much he wants his gay feelings to go away and leave him alone.

                  Let’s look at some more strips, reverse-chronological order:

                  1. “I wish I could just ignore the stuff going on in my pants, shut it up and lock it away forever.”
                  2. “You, my best friend, stopped hanging out with me because my being gay had exhausted you.”
                  3. “We’ve all got worries, right?” (The strained look on his face is because he’s talking about himself and his sexuality, in code. He does this a lot. I think he misses a lot of the things Joyce is saying because he’s so busy thinking about himself. Good way to be in a relationship, btw.) (Also thinking about his sexuality here.)
                  4. “I wish I had [your confidence], especially with the year I’ve been having.”
                  5. “It hasn’t really come up yet. Look, if there’s a manual, please direct me to it.”
                  6. “Y-yeah, I’m not afraid of dying alone and unloved either.” (Extra relevant, so bold!)
                  7. “I guess when you really think about it, history is full of gay men pretending they’re straight, and otherwise leading very important lives! You’re right, if only I had to do it all over again, I’d just keep my frigging mouth shut.” (Notice that he decides to go out with Joyce immediately after this. It is patently obvious that he made the decision to be in the closet first, and THEN picked her to go out with, not the other way around.)
                  8. “I guess I am a little depressed, Mike. It’s just slowly hitting me that finding another Jewish nerd like myself was already hard enough… but now I have to find a gay Jewish nerd to spend my life with. The circumstances of my brain are marginalizing me out of easy happiness.”
                  9. Just from being gay, I’ve lost so many things, like my girlfriend and the esteem of my parents and the likelihood of getting married and having children, and you know what? I’m not losing this friggin chicken sandwich, too.”
                  10. Again, Amber, I’m sorry I ruined our prom night by being gay.”

                  Yeah, I just don’t know where anyone is getting this idea that Ethan is upset about his sexuality and wants to stop being gay from. Totally out of left field, clearly.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 8:43 pm | #

                  (The second one of those has working links for ALL the comments! Willis, could you please delete the first one? Thanks!)

            • Rognik
              Rognik
              April 4, 2013 at 3:24 am | #

              I want to dispute your arguments, I really do, but I don’t have the patience to read this entire thing this late at night, and a quick read doesn’t cause anything to jump out. Plus, I’ve seen others try to explain why this is bad both yesterday and today, with no luck. So, I’m just going to say that you’re wrong, but I can’t explain why right now.

              • Audiophillie
                Audiophillie
                April 4, 2013 at 7:06 pm | #

                I guess I’d be perfectly willing to hear your opinion when you’re more awake?

            • Li
              Li
              April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am | #

              Kind of weird that you think Leslie/Robin “didn’t end well”. They had a rough breakup, but they’re back together now.

              Then again, much of the rest of this is also weird, for the reasons others have already pointed out.

              • Audiophillie
                Audiophillie
                April 4, 2013 at 6:53 pm | #

                Ah, forgive me, I haven’t been keeping up with Shortpacked. My laptop bust down one summer, and I couldn’t read it… Care to explain what else is weird?

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 8:45 pm | #

                  Points that other people have already addressed, but once my comment up above shows up, you will have ten different links to the comics where Ethan has made reference to his unhappiness with being gay. Hopefully they will prove more enlightening than the arguments everyone else is having with you.

        • Athena
          Athena
          April 4, 2013 at 2:31 am | #

          But it isn’t love. It’s joint lying. She’s helping Ethan lie to everyone on campus even though he struggled to deal with his sexuality at home, and Ethan’s helping her lie to herself and make her believe that she’s loving him as God would and guiding him to a better, not-gay Ethan.

          Honestly, I think Joyce is being selfish. Instead of learning how to draw the line in a mature relationship, she’s staying with Ethan SOLELY because she feels safe.

          • Audiophillie
            Audiophillie
            April 4, 2013 at 2:44 am | #

            Nobody on campus needs to know that Ethan’s gay. It’s not exactly vital information… Also, you can’t say for sure yet that Ethan doesn’t actually love Joyce. Like I’ve said before, it has every chance of being a Leslie/Robin situation.

            Also,she never said she was going to guide him away from his sexuality; she said she was going to guide him away from his temptations, and she’s doing the same to herself. It may sound like almost the same thing, but the difference is that she’s “doing unto him as she would have done unto herself”. Golden rule.

            Besides, safety isn’t her sole reasoning. She actually likes the guy.

            • begbert2
              begbert2
              April 4, 2013 at 3:31 pm | #

              “going to guide him away from his temptations” means “cure teh gay”. Period.

            • Li
              Li
              April 4, 2013 at 8:47 pm | #

              It’s not going to be a Leslie/Robin situation. Otherwise Willis wouldn’t have said “Ethan is gay, gay, gay gay gay gay gay,” like he has.

              You’ll notice that he never made that statement for Robin.

              (And for the record, Leslie is NOT Robin’s one and only exception. We know for a fact that she was at least sexually attracted to Amber, too.)

              • Li
                Li
                April 4, 2013 at 8:48 pm | #

                *that statement for Robin = “Robin is straight.”

          • WonderRabbit
            WonderRabbit
            April 4, 2013 at 3:09 am | #

            And he’s staying with her solely so no one will know he’s gay.
            They’re both being selfish here.

        • Heavensrun
          Heavensrun
          April 4, 2013 at 8:38 am | #

          If you have a medical problem, you have two options. Ignore it and hope it goes away, or treat it, one way or another. Psychological problems are, it is increasingly apparent, a type of medical problem. They can be treated chemically, or with therapy, but treating is better than ignoring, in any case. If they both had open wounds, and they both decided it’d be better to just leave them as is and hope they heal on their own, and that makes them happy (now) who’s to say it’s not a good idea? I am. I’m here to say it’s a bad idea. An astonishingly bad idea.

          • Audiophillie
            Audiophillie
            April 4, 2013 at 6:57 pm | #

            That’s kind of a false analogy… Open wounds are pretty different from psychological problems, even in a metaphorical sense. But I see your point. I just want to see if anyone agrees that their relationship is worth a little hope of working out in the end, as small of a chance as it might have of that outcome.

            • alextvalencic
              alextvalencic
              April 4, 2013 at 10:41 pm | #

              FWIW, I know a married couple in which the husband is gay and the wife is straight. They have three daughters and are actually quite happy in their relationship. Yeah, they have challenges, but they genuinely love one another, although in a different way that a straight-straight couple may. Their decision to get married was based in large part on the fact that a) they did have a love for one another and b) they both wanted to marry and have children through natural childbirth. You can read their story on his blog here.

              So yeah, I can see Ethan and Joyce ending up in a happy, healthy relationship that works for them and who the heck cares what other people think?

        • Marcos Dantas
          Marcos Dantas
          April 4, 2013 at 9:16 am | #

          That is not love, that is friendship.
          They aren’t a “couple”. They are friends pretending to have more romantic feelings to each other, at best.

          • NinjaMaid
            NinjaMaid
            April 17, 2013 at 4:59 am | #

            Not necessarily, Romance =/= Sexual. Ethan could be Bi-romantic.

    • Jake
      Jake
      April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

      This will go wonderfully…up until Mike suggests a threesome.

  5. SUGauthor
    SUGauthor
    April 4, 2013 at 12:03 am | #

    I agree with the hovertext

    • Doctor_Who
      Doctor_Who
      April 4, 2013 at 12:13 am | #

      Seconded.

    • jiynx
      jiynx
      April 4, 2013 at 12:20 am | #

      i’m just amused that so far it’s living up to my prediction.

      • HK-A6A7
        HK-A6A7
        April 4, 2013 at 12:40 am | #

        Those aren’t predictions, you knew it was going to happen because you’ve already seen it!
        I’m sure you are a future person, that came from the future.

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 3:27 am | #

          Please, none of that science fiction mumbo-jumbo. Jiynx is obviously psychic, able to see the future and then report back as a “prediction”.

          Quick, tell us what happens in tomorrow’s comic! Stop hogging it all for yourself!

  6. Wonder Wig
    Wonder Wig
    April 4, 2013 at 12:03 am | #

    Joyce logic – It’s our incompatibility that makes us compatible Ethan!

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:18 am | #

      Opposites attract, Ethan! Every Romantic movie has told me this so it must be true!!!

  7. Plasma Mongoose
    Plasma Mongoose
    April 4, 2013 at 12:04 am | #

    Thank God I’m agnostic.

    • John Harmon
      John Harmon
      April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

      Agnostic what? Agnostic Atheist, or Agnostic Theist?

      Agnostic is used as a qualifier for either of those things, one can’t simply just be Agnostic.

      • Plasma Mongoose
        Plasma Mongoose
        April 4, 2013 at 12:14 am | #

        As far as I have known, agnostic meant that you weren’t totally sure about if God even exists or not, if you were sure you would be a theist or an atheist instead.

        • jiynx
          jiynx
          April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

          agnosticism is primarily used as a coward’s out. they say ‘oh i’m not sure!’ in response to any decisions because they’re afraid of the reaction in a mixed crowd, presumably of being mocked by one faction or the other.

          stop that. it’s not becoming of a human being. pull on the big kid pants and own your beliefs.

          • Bekah
            Bekah
            April 4, 2013 at 12:25 am | #

            Or it could just be a simple statement of “At least there’s one thing that I’m not an obnoxious know-it-all about.”

            • Raoullefere
              Raoullefere
              April 4, 2013 at 1:23 am | #

              Word.

            • Marcos Dantas
              Marcos Dantas
              April 4, 2013 at 10:07 am | #

              … or simply “I don’t care!”

              • Brian Lynch
                Brian Lynch
                April 4, 2013 at 11:53 am | #

                That’s an apatheist.

          • timemonkey
            timemonkey
            April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

            Or, you know, we don’t have solid beliefs to state. Some of us also don’t care enough about the subject to bother labeling ourselves either.

          • Darth Cariss
            Darth Cariss
            April 4, 2013 at 12:32 am | #

            I’m not sure how I feel about this.

          • Plasma Mongoose
            Plasma Mongoose
            April 4, 2013 at 12:46 am | #

            jiynx, that might be true if the person in question is afraid of other people’s opinions on the subject but I’m both too old to care that much anymore. If for instance I was born in Japan, I most likely would have grown up to believe that Christianity was some strange gaijin religion with an obsession for crosses and vampire hunting nuns.

            • Owsla
              Owsla
              April 4, 2013 at 3:19 am | #

              “I-it’s not l-like I believe in you or something, baka!”

          • bionelly
            bionelly
            April 4, 2013 at 1:13 am | #

            Um, no. When I became agnostic, my husband was a fundamentalist and my mom was in seminary (both have “loosened up” a bit since then.) If I just wanted to avoid conflict I’d have continued saying I was Christian, instead of apparently going around with a big sign that said “Convince me before I go to hell!”

            And it’s not “in response to any decisions.” It’s in response to not knowing. TBH, it seems absurd and kind of arrogant to me to say we should “decide”; God is there, or not, regardless of whether I “decide” he/she/it/they are. I just can’t be sure, so I say that, rather than claiming knowledge I don’t have. I suppose it’s really a complete lack of faith, since even atheists have faith (without proof, since you can’t prove a negative) that there isn’t a god.

            • Tenn
              Tenn
              April 4, 2013 at 3:30 am | #

              Exactly. Despite labeling myself atheist for most of my life, I’m really annoyed by the notion that agnosticism is some form of cowardice.

            • GivenGood
              GivenGood
              April 5, 2013 at 1:18 am | #

              Lack of proof is proof that something doesn’t exist.
              If I tell you that Jupiter’s moon Io has it’s own moon, an orbiting copper teakettle, that has been there for over a billion years, and no one knows how or why it’s there, because no one has ever seen it, would you say that “OH It must exist, no one’s gone to Io to look closely for any orbiting teakettles, so it’s obviously there.” It’s a logical fallacy to say that lack of proof is not proof of absence.

              In fact, it honestly makes LOADS more sense to say, “I feel in my thoughts, that God exists, in my heart, and in what I believe is my soul, but I’ve never seen him, so I will never profess that his existence needs to be disproved, because it is proven to me.”

              I’m such a hard core athiest, that I don’t even believe in String “theory”.

              • bionelly
                bionelly
                April 5, 2013 at 3:05 am | #

                I keep seeing this out of atheists, and it really just isn’t the same thing.

                The idea that there would be a naturally-occurring teapot in space somewhere goes against everything we know about the way planets in space are formed. It’s not absurd because we can’t go and see it, it’s absurd because it contradicts things we can prove (or at least have evidence for.)

                Now, I will agree that many religious beliefs fall into that category. Creationism, for instance. However, insisting that there is definitely no god of any kind, not even a particularly standoffish one who sort of set things in motion and then went away, is more like saying there’s definitely nothing at all orbiting Io, not even the tiniest bit of debris. If lack of proof alone really did prove that something wasn’t there, then Io itself must not have existed before 1610, since before then we had no indication it was there.

          • Rufus Saltus
            Rufus Saltus
            April 4, 2013 at 1:41 am | #

            Ah yes, the Dawkins Theory of Agnosticism: because it is cowardice to refuse to draw conclusions about something you don’t have feel you have adequate information to make conjectures about. Of course!

            The principle behind agnosticism is to demonstrate humility when evaluating one’s understanding of the universe. I do not claim to know how the universe functions. It is more reasonable for me to say that I don’t know than to claim I do. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to have an understanding of the universe complete enough to know that there is or is not any sort of deity, but it’s beyond what we know now. This was the position of Thomas Huxley and Bertrand Russell.

          • Pat
            Pat
            April 4, 2013 at 2:23 am | #

            “I’m not sure” is cowardly?
            People hate not being sure and lie about it often. Saying it, when it is true, is good.

            • StClair
              StClair
              April 4, 2013 at 3:34 am | #

              Fully agreed.
              Sometimes, “I don’t know” is the most honest statement / self-assessment possible.

          • S.F.
            S.F.
            April 4, 2013 at 2:26 am | #

            My being agnostic isn’t me “taking the coward’s way out,” and I kind of resent anyone using that terminology for someone’s personal beliefs? It’s not a title I picked arbitrarily, and I HAVE been given grief for admitting I’m agnostic in mixed company before.

            Believe it or not, not taking a side tends to make some people as upset as stating a clear belief one way or another! Much like it seems to be bothering you!

            I admit to a lack of belief while simultaneously choosing to have the qualifier that I don’t feel I can personally say I am 100% correct in what I personally believe. I’m secure in leaving any feelings on spirituality at that. It doesn’t make me a bad or noncommittal person. It just makes me another person who decided their feelings on the matter and left it at that a long time ago.

          • Alyssa
            Alyssa
            April 4, 2013 at 6:05 am | #

            Meh. For me it’s more of a “I give no shits, will never be able to come up with an answer except by dying and finding out by meeting, not meeting, or not finding out, I have better things to do than worry about this stuff. I… Guess the label on the tin says agnostic then? I dunno. Don’t give shits about that either, really…”

        • John Harmon
          John Harmon
          April 4, 2013 at 1:12 am | #

          Agnostic means that you admit to not knowing for sure whether or not there is a god.

          But one can be Theist and still have this mindset, and one can be Atheist and have this mindset as well.

          It’s one or the other. I know a lot of people get it wrong, but this is how it’s supposed to be.

          • bionelly
            bionelly
            April 4, 2013 at 1:17 am | #

            It CAN be one or the other. But it doesn’t have to be.

        • HiEv
          HiEv
          April 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm | #

          The terms gnostic and agnostic are about knowledge, while the terms theist and atheist are about belief in gods. The terms are not mutually exclusive.

          So “gnostic” and “agnostic” are statements about whether the subject claims to know or thinks you can can know if gods exist. If you claim to know that a god, goddess, or gods exist or that you can know this, then you’re gnostic on the subject, in any other case you are agnostic.

          The terms “theist” and “atheist” are statements about whether the subject believes that a god, goddess, or gods exist. If you have a belief that a god, goddess, or gods exist, then you’re a theist, in any other case you’re an atheist.

          It’s a common mistake to think that atheism means that you deny the existence of gods. That is not a requirement of atheism.

          So, if you’re agnostic about the existence of gods, and you don’t have a definite belief that gods exist, then you’re an agnostic atheist.

          This is why you can’t only be agnostic. Even if you somehow “don’t know” whether you believe gods exist, that still means that you don’t have a belief that gods exist, which by definition means that you’re an atheist.

          If we’re using words based on their definitions, then these are the appropriate labels here. You can’t label yourself whatever you want, regardless of whether it matches the definition or not, if you expect people to know what you mean when you use that label.

          So, it doesn’t matter what you call yourself, it’s the definitions of those labels that determine if they’re appropriate or not.

          • Li
            Li
            April 4, 2013 at 8:56 pm | #

            : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

            from Merriam-Webster.

            Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable. […] In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

            So, uh. What were you trying to tell us about “using words based on their definitions”?

            Dictionaries don’t even agree with you, honey. Please stop trying to tell other people they are labeling their beliefs incorrectly.

            You can be an agnostic atheist, an agnostic theist, OR just an agnostic.

            • Li
              Li
              April 4, 2013 at 9:16 pm | #

              The second big ole swath is from Wikipedia.

            • HiEv
              HiEv
              April 5, 2013 at 4:02 am | #

              Perhaps you might want to try actually reading those chunks of text you quoted. You’ll find that they didn’t disagree with me at all.

              Me: “So “gnostic” and “agnostic” are statements about whether the subject claims to know or thinks you can can know if gods exist.”

              Merriam-Webster: “a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable”

              Wikipedia: “Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable.”

              See? All of us agree.

              So, rather than just quoting swaths of text that supposedly don’t agree with me, “honey”, perhaps you could try using your own words to explain where the disagreement supposedly is?

              • Li
                Li
                April 5, 2013 at 9:56 am | #

                This is the part where you’re wrong:

                So, if you’re agnostic about the existence of gods, and you don’t have a definite belief that gods exist, then you’re an agnostic atheist.
                This is why you can’t only be agnostic. Even if you somehow “don’t know” whether you believe gods exist, that still means that you don’t have a belief that gods exist, which by definition means that you’re an atheist.

                Nowhere in either definition does it say you can’t just not know whether you believe gods exist — in fact, not knowing is kind of the hallmark of both definitions! — and you must realize that your “somehow” and your quotes around “don’t know” are kind of really super condescending.

                But hey, let’s turn it around a little. Are you allowed to be simply an atheist? Or do you have to forever call yourself a “gnostic atheist” (if you think you have knowledge about it) or an “agnostic atheist” (if you don’t think so)? Surely the term “atheist” is incomplete without that information!

              • Li
                Li
                April 5, 2013 at 9:59 am | #

                (Btw, basing all your language arguments on a strict assessment of their roots is gonna get you into trouble one of these days. I’m afraid “homophobe” does not mean “fear of sameness”. 😉 )

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:38 pm | #

                  *homophobia
                  *homophobe being a person who has said phobia
                  *yeah sometimes typing is hard shh

              • Li
                Li
                April 5, 2013 at 10:01 am | #

                Annnnd last but not least, I personally vacillate a lot! Sometimes I’d consider myself an agnostic atheist, most of the time more of an agnostic theist, and almost all the time I’m thinking, “Well, if there IS any kind of god-like entity out there, it probably isn’t all that concerned with human events. We are, after all, only one tiny planet in the infinite cosmos.”

                I could pretend to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, but neither of those terms are correct for me overall. Agnostic is. Sorry it’s not “precise” enough for you.

      • Bekah
        Bekah
        April 4, 2013 at 12:17 am | #

        One most certainly can be simply agnostic. You don’t get to decide what labels people apply to themselves.

        • Plasma Mongoose
          Plasma Mongoose
          April 4, 2013 at 12:21 am | #

          The only way I can see someone being either Agnostic Atheist or Agnostic Theist is if they lean strongly towards one way or another.

        • ColdFury
          ColdFury
          April 4, 2013 at 12:21 am | #

          Well, I get what you’re saying and appreciate the intent of it, taken literally it is a bit silly.

          I mean, I could call myself ‘plaid’, but that doesn’t mean I’m clearly communicating anything about myself with that label.

          ..Except maybe an indication of my sanity level.

          • Bekah
            Bekah
            April 4, 2013 at 12:24 am | #

            Or it could have some meaning to you that is a mystery to other people. Whether or not you choose to explain it is up to you.

          • Leorale
            Leorale
            April 4, 2013 at 12:26 am | #

            ColdFury, you’re just racist against us, the plaid people. *sniffle*

          • Rognik
            Rognik
            April 4, 2013 at 3:39 am | #

            Playing devil’s advocate here, but calling yourself agnostic doesn’t have to communicate anything useful about yourself, except that you don’t align with a major religion.

            On a slightly different but related topic, I call myself “agnostic” even though I don’t really consider myself such simply because my beliefs don’t line up with any one religion. I have a distinct belief, but I don’t want to bore anyone with them here and now. If someone has a better suggestion for what I should label myself, feel free to e-mail me at the hotmail address of the same name.

            • Plasma Mongoose
              Plasma Mongoose
              April 4, 2013 at 5:33 am | #

              Atheist: “God? I dion’t believe in fairy tales”

              Theist: “God does indeed exist and I worship Him”

              Nay Theist: “God might exist but he doesn’t deserve my worship”

              Agnostic: “Does God exist? I have no idea”

              • Li
                Li
                April 4, 2013 at 7:51 am | #

                Nice. Also, *he, she, it, etc

                The idea that any monotheistic God would be limited by gender is pretty funny to me.

                • tyren22
                  tyren22
                  April 4, 2013 at 11:35 am | #

                  I think it comes from the whole notion that God “created man in His image,” and THEN created woman. At this point though it’s probably just common usage among Christians that most people don’t think about that hard.

                • NaYa
                  NaYa
                  April 4, 2013 at 12:46 pm | #

                  Blame English language for not having a definite gender-neutral term for a third person pronoun anymore these days. ‘He’ is often used as a universal term in that sense.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 8:58 pm | #

                  Yeah, but let’s face it, it’s also just plain ole sexism, like the idea that Eve came second, even though biologically we now know that female is the default.

              • HiEv
                HiEv
                April 4, 2013 at 5:22 pm | #

                Plasma Mongoose, the agnostic in your example is apparently also an atheist.

                Let me ask you, does the atheist you described have a belief that gods probably exist?

                If the answer is “no”, as it appears to be, then that puts them in the category of “atheist”. Anyone who does not have a belief that a god/goddess/gods exist is an atheist.

                The atheist you described in your example is one kind of atheist, but it is not an accurate depiction of all atheists, such as your “agnostic” at the end. Similarly, anyone who doesn’t even have a concept of gods is also an atheist because they can’t have a belief in gods.

                Atheism is a much broader term than most people understand it to be.

                • HiEv
                  HiEv
                  April 4, 2013 at 5:23 pm | #

                  Grrr… wrong word. That one sentence should be:

                  “Let me ask you, does the agnostic you described have a belief that gods probably exist?”

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 9:04 pm | #

                  The agnostic he described has a belief that gods might exist. He literally said, I have no idea.

                  Your definition of atheism is not grounded in the popular understanding of the word, babe.

                  Dictionary.com: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
                  Merriam-Webster: one who believes that there is no deity

                  What’s that, you say? The dictionaries are wrong because that’s not what atheism means for you?

                  Guess what? If dictionaries don’t get to tell you what atheism means, you don’t get to tell anyone else what agnosticism means.

                  Seriously, you are being borderline offensive right now. Just… stop.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 4, 2013 at 9:17 pm | #

                  You’re not as bad as John Harmon, though, and my irritation with him is spilling over a little, so apologies for my tone.

                  My point still stands, though. Dictionaries don’t agree with you guys on this.

                • HiEv
                  HiEv
                  April 5, 2013 at 4:29 am | #

                  Funny how you only used only one of the two definitions from the Dictionary.com site, and left out the one that agreed with John and I.

                  Dictionary.com: Definition #2- “disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.”

                  Kind of dishonest to leave that out when it perfectly matches what we’ve been saying, wouldn’t you say?

                  Wikipedia: “Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.”

                  So that bolded part totally matches what I’ve been saying.

                  I also note that most of the user comments on the Merriam-Webster atheist definition page disagree with the definition given there.

                  Setting dictionaries aside, I’m also using the definition of the word that comes from the root word. If you are “a-theist” then you are “not-theist”, so if “theist” means you have a belief in a god or gods, then “theist” means everyone else who isn’t a theist. The same is true for “gnostic” and “agnostic”. It’s a straightforward X vs. not-X definition that we’re using.

                  So, at best, some parts of some dictionaries disagree with us, while other parts of those dictionaries which have been corrected/updated to match the root meaning and modern usage completely agree with what we’ve been saying. (Heck, just a few hundred years ago “atheist” was pretty much just a generic insult, as there were few or no actual atheists back then. Definitions change over time.)

                  What we’re telling you is the definition that most atheists actually mean when we use the word “atheist” for ourselves. This is why it’s extremely frustrating to see people insist that the term means something else, and thus totally misconstrue our position.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:40 pm | #

                  It’s not even remotely dishonest. You’re the one trying to make absolute statements about what a word means; I’m saying, our understanding of those words is also valid.

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:42 pm | #

                  What we’re telling you is the definition that most atheists actually mean when we use the word “atheist” for ourselves. This is why it’s extremely frustrating to see people insist that the term means something else, and thus totally misconstrue our position.

                  …Funny, how you’ve put us all in that same position you resent! I mean, do you really not see the hypocrisy here?

                  You have been told, this is the definition agnostics prefer for themselves, and your response is “NO, your definition DOESN’T EXIST!”

                • Li
                  Li
                  April 5, 2013 at 12:58 pm | #

                  One more comment, because I just want to make my position on this completely clear:

                  I’ve always used “strong” and “weak” agnosticism / atheism to make a similar distinction to what you are making. I totally think that “atheistic agnosticism” (you aren’t sure / don’t have proof / don’t believe we can have proof, but you don’t think there is a god or gods) and “theistic agnostic” (you aren’t sure / don’t have proof / don’t believe we can have proof / don’t think any of the available religions have it right, but you think there is a god or gods) are things.

                  I also think that agnostic atheists and and gnostic atheists are things, and that the atheist tent is big enough to encompass both atheists who believe there is no god or gods and atheists who just don’t believe there is a god or gods.

                  And I absolutely don’t think an atheist is a bad thing. I don’t fear the label or go “ack, get it away from me” or anything like that. My reluctance to label myself as an agnostic atheist is because I genuinely don’t feel it fits, not because I think it is a bad thing, and since I’m very sure you’ve encountered plenty of people who think agnosticism is just “a conversion waiting to happen :D” but that atheism means “you are a bad person who probably worships the devil :|||” (bullshit, and also traditional Satanism or Luciferianism is more humanist anyway, to bundle two things that don’t really belong together).

                  Again: I use agnostic because I think it’s more honest, and because for me the primary thing is that don’t attribute to myself the ability to know the divine. If it exists, I tend to think I could still never understand it. This uncertainty is the hallmark, and so I just very strongly identify with “agnostic” as a label.

        • John Harmon
          John Harmon
          April 4, 2013 at 1:13 am | #

          “One most certainly can be simply agnostic. You don’t get to decide what labels people apply to themselves.”

          Two things:

          1. No people can’t just be agnostic.

          2. Don’t do that. I was just correcting their use of a term.

          • Jabbie
            Jabbie
            April 4, 2013 at 3:39 pm | #

            “No people can’t just be agnostic.” What are you basing this claim on? I’m genuinely curious… I have never heard this definition before.

            And no, you don’t get to decide what people call themselves, that is correct. When I say “I am x” and you say “no you’re not” you’re challenging someone’s identity. Not that this is always wrong, but it will always make you look like an ass.

      • Valdrax
        Valdrax
        April 4, 2013 at 12:26 am | #

        Why not? Do you really think no one can be that undecided / apathetic / prone to flip-flopping? What about people who are agnostics that grew up with religions that don’t have gods (e.g. some forms of Buddhism, Jainism, etc.)?

        • John Harmon
          John Harmon
          April 4, 2013 at 1:16 am | #

          I was simply correcting the misuse of the word. I know a lot of people get it wrong, but the intent of the idea of Agnosticism is meant to go hand-in-hand with either Atheism or Theism.

          • Veit
            Veit
            April 4, 2013 at 1:27 am | #

            No… agnostic atheism and agnostic theism are just two types of agnosticism. There’s pragmatic agnosticism and strong or weak agnosticism, to name several. You don’t need to base your stance in either belief or disbelief in a God or gods. The core of your beliefs can be “I don’t know” (weak agnosticism), “I can’t know” (strong agnosticism), or even “I don’t care” (pragmatic agnosticism). None of these make a judgment about belief or disbelief in god, and in these ways, agnosticism need not go hand-in-hand with theism or atheism.

            • Bekah
              Bekah
              April 4, 2013 at 1:37 am | #

              Thank you for being both correct and more diplomatic than I was planning on being.

            • StClair
              StClair
              April 4, 2013 at 3:37 am | #

              Also militant agnosticism – “I can’t know and you can’t either.”

              • MrSmiley
                MrSmiley
                April 4, 2013 at 6:38 am | #

                I wish we had thumbs up and down buttons for posts like these.

          • Li
            Li
            April 4, 2013 at 7:58 am | #

            I believe one thing with utter certainty: you, sir, are a jerk.

            I’d also be willing to bet on “white” and “male”, because it takes a lot of privilege to feel like your definitions are better than everyone else’s when you don’t even have the questionable authority of a dictionary definition to stand on.

            • John Harmon
              John Harmon
              April 4, 2013 at 4:29 pm | #

              Oh, don’t go saying I’m “privileged”. That’s crap. I am going by the textbook definition.

              • Li
                Li
                April 4, 2013 at 9:07 pm | #

                1.) I’ll take that as a yes!

                2.) You are wrong. Your definitions aren’t even supported by the dictionary, and you have zero authority to label other people’s spiritual beliefs either way.

          • Valdrax
            Valdrax
            April 4, 2013 at 9:46 am | #

            I asked you to back up your assertion with a logical explanation, not just simply double down on arrogance. So let me try this again:

            a) Why can’t someone simply be so undecided that they have no starting position on theism or atheism to drift “away” from?
            b) What about people who are uncertain about religious beliefs that ill fit the binary label of “theist” or “atheist?” (i.e. Those with strong belief in the supernatural but none in gods or similar classes or entities.)

            • Marcos Dantas
              Marcos Dantas
              April 4, 2013 at 10:35 am | #

              .e. Those with strong belief in the supernatural but none in gods or similar classes or entities.)

              That would be a definition of … Brazilians :))
              Serously, there is a smogarsboard of religious traditions here. The end result is that everyone believes in something, even if it is a colection of incongruent ideas. It is not uncommom a Brazilian Catholic who believes in reincarnation. :))

          • Marcos Dantas
            Marcos Dantas
            April 4, 2013 at 10:27 am | #

            Language is a living thing, John. Even if your defintiion was correct, it doesn’t matter anymore, as nowadays enough people understand agnoticism as the other definition.

            • John Harmon
              John Harmon
              April 4, 2013 at 4:27 pm | #

              If by that you mean the WRONG definition, then sure.

            • John Harmon
              John Harmon
              April 4, 2013 at 4:31 pm | #

              It just irks me when people use a term incorrectly, even if it’s a popular incorrect use of said term, and then when they’re called on it someone just claims “living language” as if that’s an all encompassing out for when you use a term incorrectly. It’s crap.

      • Milosh
        Milosh
        April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

        I’m an “I’m not gonna make a decision about something I can’t possibly know” Agnostic. What kind is that?

        • Zach
          Zach
          April 4, 2013 at 12:47 am | #

          If you’re agnostic about god the way you’re agnostic about there being a Rustles Teapot in the asteroid belt, I don’t see how one can be undecided. Most of the “we just can’t know”s have been solved so they really bother me. I know people who have seen ghosts. My grandpa says death is the end of it but says he is a little psychic. I can respect faith. I can’t respect not looking at the sorce of ethics and deciding if your own make sence to you.

          Theology has non-trivial consequences.
          Like D.O.M.A. and a war that Bush said God told him to start.

          • Bekah
            Bekah
            April 4, 2013 at 1:03 am | #

            You can make decisions about personal ethics independently of theological concerns.

          • Plasma Mongoose
            Plasma Mongoose
            April 4, 2013 at 1:08 am | #

            All I know is that if I died right now and for the sake of argument assume that not only does God exist, but the SDAs were right, then I will come alive in the 2nd resurrection along with billions of other humans and fallen angels as we attempt to take over New Jerusalem before being hit with God’s version of the Penance Stare and die painfully as the Earth turns into a sea of molten rock with Satan being the last being to die.

            Now you can understand why I am at the very least agnostic.

          • bionelly
            bionelly
            April 4, 2013 at 2:09 am | #

            So, what, I’m supposed to claim to know something I don’t as some sort of protest against people doing bad/stupid things in the name of religion? How is that supposed to help, exactly?

        • Veit
          Veit
          April 4, 2013 at 1:29 am | #

          That is called strong agnosticism, assuming the core of your decision is based on the belief that no one can possibly know whether or not there is a God. If it’s based instead in the idea that it doesn’t matter if there is a God because evidence shows that it doesn’t care about us even if there is one and we don’t know, that’s pragmatic or apathetic agnosticism.

          • Milosh
            Milosh
            April 4, 2013 at 2:36 am | #

            Hey, I learned something… in a comments section! (Cue *The More You Know* logo)

      • Commander Nowhere
        Commander Nowhere
        April 4, 2013 at 4:52 am | #

        Words have multiple definitions, all of which change over time as the word propagates into common usage. The original intent of how the word is used doesn’t really matter in the long run. The word agnostic if you break it down actually just means “without knowledge.” One of the dictionary definitions is “a person who does not take on side or the other of an argument.” So yes, one can be, in many definitions of the word, agnostic without being atheistic or theistic. Words that also have multiple meanings. A common definition of atheism is to strongly believe there is no god, whereas another is just having an absence of belief in a god. Both are correct, because that’s just how language works. It’s understandable that you want your narrow definition to be the one that everyone fits into, because then you’ll feel like you’re not alone in your delusional little “this is what things mean” bubble, but i’m afraid you ARE alone in that bubble. ALL ALONE. In a bubble. By yourself. (cause you’re wrong{about how language works})

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:21 am | #

      Thank God I’m obnoxious. No, wait…

    • Anonymous
      Anonymous
      April 4, 2013 at 2:26 am | #

      Looks like it’s time to play everyone’s favorite game, Taboo™!
      Everybody, describe your stance without using the words:
      1. Agnostic(ism)
      2. (A)Theis(t/m)

      Bonus!
      For a more challenging and deeper showcase of your beliefs, also remove these words from your description:
      1. God
      2. Faith

      • Josh
        Josh
        April 4, 2013 at 4:32 am | #

        I believe that there is no higher power, however if I were proven wrong I wouldn’t be surprised at all.

        I would be surprised however if any of the major religions were right though, it’s statistically almost impossible if you think how many religions have come and gone in the few measly millennia that humans have been around.

        • clodia
          clodia
          April 4, 2013 at 8:33 am | #

          Can I just say ditto? Except I would be a little surprised.

          Further, if the higher power that I do not think exists were to exist, and to be anywhere on the omniscient/omnipresent scale, I would be disappointed in him/her/it and in creation. If it were to exist and to be a distant creator, a mad scientist even, then my perceptions of the world would be unshaken.

          • Josh
            Josh
            April 4, 2013 at 8:58 am | #

            I use the term higher power very loosely. What you just described it the message I was trying to convey.

      • begbert2
        begbert2
        April 4, 2013 at 3:46 pm | #

        I don’t believe in any froo-froo ridiculous improbable and/or impossible stuff, be it unicorns, perpetual motion machines, magic crystals, guaranteed ways of legally winning the lottery, massive but perfectly secret conspiracies, or even anybody’s favorite physics-defying and possibly self-contradictory mythological figure(s).

        However, for the silly things that aren’t actually impossible, I do retain a nugget of willingness to believe that they’re true, if actual evidence appeared that did a reasonable job of supporting the claim. For ridiculously unlikely claims the evidence had better be pretty good, of course.

        But regarding my above willingness to entertain ludicrous theories, that’s a willingness, not an actual belief in it. And unless and until such evidence rears its head, I will hold the solid belief that the silly things aren’t real. While simultaneously allowing for the possibility that I might, maybe, be wrong. But probably not.

      • GivenGood
        GivenGood
        April 5, 2013 at 1:53 am | #

        If there’s no share-able, record-able proof. Then it doesn’t exist. And even if you decide that it could or does exist, independently of me, there is no valuable discussion I can glean from a conversation to try and convince me otherwise. With the exception of the absolution that any improbable event, no matter how unlikely, will occur again within our universe.

        Fun thing is, that system of thinking let’s me believe in ghosts and aliens (And fucking Cthulhu, though that’s just the stuff that haunts me at night) while disbelieving in String “theory” and any Deity, Judeo-Christian God or otherwise. XD XD XD

      • GivenGood
        GivenGood
        April 5, 2013 at 1:53 am | #

        If there’s no share-able, record-able proof. Then it doesn’t exist. And even if you decide that it could or does exist, independently of me, there is no valuable discussion I can glean from a conversation to try and convince me otherwise. With the exception of the absolution that any improbable event, no matter how unlikely, will occur again within our universe.

        Fun thing is, that system of thinking let’s me believe in ghosts and aliens (And fucking Cthulhu, though that’s just the stuff that haunts me at night) while disbelieving in String “theory” and any Deity, Judeo-Christian God or otherwise. XD XD XD

  8. Regalli
    Regalli
    April 4, 2013 at 12:04 am | #

    Well crap. There is no way this is going to end well, but it’s gonna be a slow, painful train wreck.

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:22 am | #

      The train is just, slowly driving underwater.

      • Regalli
        Regalli
        April 4, 2013 at 12:39 am | #

        While leaking oil.

        And the oil is on fire.

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 3:43 am | #

          I love me some underwater fire!

          • MrSmiley
            MrSmiley
            April 4, 2013 at 6:39 am | #

            especially when it reaches the surface and becomes an inferno.

  9. timemonkey
    timemonkey
    April 4, 2013 at 12:05 am | #

    Damn it, I really didn’t think I was going to be wrong about this. I see this failing as soon as anyone else learns of it.

  10. J42
    J42
    April 4, 2013 at 12:05 am | #

    ETHAN! YOU ARE IN LESS CONTROL NOW!

  11. John
    John
    April 4, 2013 at 12:06 am | #

    Oh Joyce no.

    • teasugarsalt
      teasugarsalt
      April 4, 2013 at 1:12 am | #

      Not merely no, but NOOOOO!

      • James
        James
        April 4, 2013 at 1:38 am | #

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi_3v-FpKFg

        let the hate fill you

      • Josh
        Josh
        April 4, 2013 at 4:20 am | #

        Not merely no, but DO NOT WANT!

  12. General Tekno
    General Tekno
    April 4, 2013 at 12:06 am | #

    Bravo on crafting something that very much feels like it’s out of reality – namely, people making choices that aren’t necessarily the wisest in the long run but that are convenient for the time being.

    This is definitely not going to end well, and the worst part of it all is that both of them are enabling each other, so it’ll probably go on for longer than it should.

    (On the other hand, if Ethan or Joyce get interested in politics, it’s a plus in this day and age in the sliding timescale.)

  13. MM
    MM
    April 4, 2013 at 12:06 am | #

    Countdown to one or both of them waking up in Mike’s bed in 5, 4, 3…

    • Senorvorpalkickass'o
      Senorvorpalkickass'o
      April 4, 2013 at 12:17 am | #

      With your mom.

      • MrSmiley
        MrSmiley
        April 4, 2013 at 6:42 am | #

        for a nickle

    • Viktoria
      Viktoria
      April 4, 2013 at 12:26 am | #

      Smart money’s on Joyce. Ethan’s already done that once in each reality, Joyce is completely unprepared for handling Mike.

      • Valdrax
        Valdrax
        April 4, 2013 at 12:30 am | #

        I think that Joyce’s religious sexual views compounded with her untreated trauma from near date rape would explode in a way that wouldn’t be very funny. Plus, DoA!Mike’s mean streak seems more focused on helping people in sneaky & underhanded ways, and that would not help her at all.

        • Rognik
          Rognik
          April 4, 2013 at 3:45 am | #

          You forgot to mention that while he is helpful in a cruel way, he still tries to find the most cruel way to do it first.

          • MrSmiley
            MrSmiley
            April 4, 2013 at 6:44 am | #

            Like sleeping with ethan to make Joyce realize how bad this relationship is…

  14. Ridureyu
    Ridureyu
    April 4, 2013 at 12:07 am | #

    So, Joyce is trying to “fix” him and convert him out of being gay.

    And any remaining sympathy for her goes riiiiiight out the window.

    • Wack'd
      Wack'd
      April 4, 2013 at 12:12 am | #

      Out of being gay and into, I guess, being asexual?

      • Leorale
        Leorale
        April 4, 2013 at 12:19 am | #

        Nope, ’cause he’ll still have romantic and sexual feelings for men. He’ll be forced into frustrated celibacy.

        • bionelly
          bionelly
          April 4, 2013 at 9:02 am | #

          Asexual seems to be what she’s hoping for, though. She doesn’t want him to still be attracted to men, but she doesn’t really want him to be straight either, because then he wouldn’t be “safe” anymore. If he were asexual heteroromantic, that would be ideal, as far as she’s concerned. (Not saying there’s any chance whatsoever that it’ll happen, just that it’s what Joyce would want to happen.)

          • Wack'd
            Wack'd
            April 4, 2013 at 2:38 pm | #

            That’s assuming, of course, that she knows what “asexual heteroromantic” means.

      • tyren22
        tyren22
        April 4, 2013 at 11:46 am | #

        Pretty much. A close friend of my mother’s has genuinely made the argument that in the eyes of God it’s perfectly okay to BE gay so long as you never ever actually have sex with someone of the same gender, ever. I think this is basically where Joyce’s thoughts are.

    • jiynx
      jiynx
      April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

      i admit, willis did a great job of making a character that, were i to meet them in real life, i would shake them the way one of those terrible nannies would shake a baby.

    • Jelli
      Jelli
      April 4, 2013 at 12:32 am | #

      Joyce is meeting Ethan on the terms he set for her. I think we can pretty much assume that pre-Ethan all she knew about homosexuals is that they were sinning against God. Now she finally meets one in person and everything he tells her about his sexuality reaffirms what she’s been taught to believe. It’s not like Joyce dragged Ethan out of a GLBTA meeting threatening hellfire.

      I don’t really get why the entire reaction to the Ethan-Joyce relationship seems to boil down to “Oh Joyce is so evil!” If Joyce thinks she can fix Ethan, that’s probably because Ethan is basically screaming “Somebody fix me!”

      • tyren22
        tyren22
        April 4, 2013 at 11:49 am | #

        I wasn’t one of the ones thinking “Joyce is evil” but your last paragraph is a really good point that I hadn’t really considered.

    • Heavy E
      Heavy E
      April 4, 2013 at 12:35 am | #

      Can’t really put all the blame on her. She’s just going along with what Ethan wanted to do from the beginning and putting her own spin on it from her own personal beliefs. Is it a really dumb idea on both of their parts? Yes, but it takes two to tango.

    • Rognik
      Rognik
      April 4, 2013 at 3:49 am | #

      I think that is a very mean thing to say. While trying to “fix” a gay man is wrong, and doomed to fail, it’s mostly wrong if it’s unwanted or unbidden. Ethan has expressed displeasure with being gay, so she thinks she’s doing the right thing. At least she’s coming at it from the right angle, even if the premise is flawed from the beginning.

      • Li
        Li
        April 4, 2013 at 11:03 am | #

        No, it’s wrong no matter what. Because even when it is wanted, it doesn’t actually work, so all you are doing is encouraging painful repression and laying groundwork for even more toxic self-hatred (now not only are they still gay, they are also a FAILURE because you encouraged them to believe they could change!) down the road.

        I can understand why Joyce is doing this, and don’t blame her for it, much also believe in objective morality. What Joyce is doing is STILL wrong, despite her good intentions and Ethan’s encouragement.

    • Spiny Creature
      Spiny Creature
      April 4, 2013 at 10:54 am | #

      Man, Joyce got very nearly raped a week ago. Seven days. That excuses her for a lot of poor relationship decisions based on fear and trauma, in my book. For God’s sake, all she wants is to date a guy who won’t terrify her sexually, who she doesn’t need to have any more nightmares about. I can’t think of anything much more sympathetic (or horribly sad) than that.

  15. Leorale
    Leorale
    April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

    NOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Ethan no, the whole ex-gay thing will damage you so much. noooo

  16. Heavensrun
    Heavensrun
    April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

    (sigh) Well, at least now it’s mutually informed and consensual self-delusion.

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:24 am | #

      What a descriptive cluster of four consonate words.

    • Rognik
      Rognik
      April 4, 2013 at 3:54 am | #

      I think that’s probably the best and most positive description for this scenario yet! I wish I could up-vote this so it could be the first thing people see in relation to this comic, so that there will be less arguments over this.

    • clodia
      clodia
      April 4, 2013 at 8:36 am | #

      Perfectly put. Still don’t like it, but it’s a different icky feeling from when it was deception all around.

  17. John Harmon
    John Harmon
    April 4, 2013 at 12:08 am | #

    So she’ll be with a gay man, so there’s no chance of him trying to rape her.

    I know it’s a fictional character, but she should really talk to someone about that experience.

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:25 am | #

      She needs to go down to Roz’s coven.

  18. morgang1994
    morgang1994
    April 4, 2013 at 12:09 am | #

    This may be one of the most terrifying things to come to the DoA universe. The Head Alien’s arrival would be less frightening than this.

  19. Aras Pabedinskas
    Aras Pabedinskas
    April 4, 2013 at 12:09 am | #

    GOSH DARNIT JOYCE I WANTED TO GIVE YOU THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT THAT YOU WERE BEING ACTUALLY ACCEPTING AND YOU COMPLETELY FAILED ME! Now I am just dissapointed and sad…

    …and hungry but that’s irrelevant to this situation.

    • Tortoiseshell Bat
      Tortoiseshell Bat
      April 4, 2013 at 12:31 am | #

      Well, she’s being understanding in the best way she knows how.

      • Aras Pabedinskas
        Aras Pabedinskas
        April 4, 2013 at 12:37 am | #

        Okay, ya, I overreacted. Joyce is being suprisingly accepting about it, and she didn’t go “eliminate the gayness” more like, “We can ignore sexaulity, TOGETHER”, at least, as I am reading it right now, and she can’t really fail me, as she is not catering to me.

        But I am still hungry. And tired. I should go to bed now.

    • tyren22
      tyren22
      April 4, 2013 at 11:53 am | #

      I’m hungry too. Who wants pizza?

      • begbert2
        begbert2
        April 4, 2013 at 3:50 pm | #

        I do!

  20. Ragnal
    Ragnal
    April 4, 2013 at 12:09 am | #

    I feel like I should stop reading at this point, but I know that’s not going to happen.

    *puts on conductor’s cap* Time to see this trainwreck through. WOO WOOOOOOO!

    • Jackson
      Jackson
      April 4, 2013 at 12:18 am | #

      The Dumbing don’t stop, Ragnal. It just keeps on dumbing.

      • Rognik
        Rognik
        April 4, 2013 at 3:56 am | #

        Ain’t no dumbing like a Willis Dumbing?

    • Tom Speelman
      Tom Speelman
      April 4, 2013 at 12:26 am | #

      All aboard!

  21. otusasio451
    otusasio451
    April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

    Oh…oh, God. There is no POSSIBLE WAY this will end well.

    • Plasma Mongoose
      Plasma Mongoose
      April 4, 2013 at 12:50 am | #

      Most likely true but will it end soon or after a few years of marriage?

    • Aizat
      Aizat
      April 4, 2013 at 1:00 am | #

      I for one actually want to see this going well…for both of them.

  22. Aaron
    Aaron
    April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

    Oh right, I keep forgetting they’re 18.

    And that 18-year olds are stupid. (Speaking from experience, of course, looking back 5 years after)

    • Leorale
      Leorale
      April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

      Don’t worry, Aaron. 23-yr-olds are stupid, too. Which I can say from experience looking back, ’cause I’m almost five years older than that… although I have a very strong suspicion that future-me will think present-me is stupid, too, in exciting new ways that I can’t currently imagine!

      It’s a magical cycle of finding out you were a fool, every few years until you die. Hooray for wisdom!

      • Valdrax
        Valdrax
        April 4, 2013 at 12:37 am | #

        Cheer up, it won’t always be like that. After all, we have dementia to look forward to at some point!

      • StClair
        StClair
        April 4, 2013 at 3:39 am | #

        Pretty much. Best you can hope for is to make different mistakes.

        • MrSmiley
          MrSmiley
          April 4, 2013 at 6:46 am | #

          but the ones I’m making now are so much fun!

  23. Phil
    Phil
    April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

    If Joyce won’t handle Ethan’s thing, he’ll have to take it into his own hand.

    • Rognik
      Rognik
      April 4, 2013 at 3:57 am | #

      Pretty sure he already does. He-yo!

  24. JBO
    JBO
    April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

    Joyce will never give Ethan up or let him down.

    • Ragnal
      Ragnal
      April 4, 2013 at 12:12 am | #

      I’m going to reach through the internet and slap you silly for that.

    • Black Bumblebee
      Black Bumblebee
      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 am | #

      …never gone turn around, or hurt him?

      • Yotomoe
        Yotomoe
        April 4, 2013 at 12:27 am | #

        Never gonna make him cry, never gonna say goodbye?

        • Neospector
          Neospector
          April 4, 2013 at 12:49 am | #

          Never going to tell a lie and hurt him?

          • Zach
            Zach
            April 4, 2013 at 1:02 am | #

            Never gona’ give
            Never gona’ give
            Never gona’ give

            • Aizat
              Aizat
              April 4, 2013 at 7:51 am | #

              We know each other for so long….

              • teasugarsalt
                teasugarsalt
                April 4, 2013 at 4:28 pm | #

                She knows the rules, and so does he.

      • Rognik
        Rognik
        April 4, 2013 at 3:58 am | #

        Rickroll’d!

    • Wack'd
      Wack'd
      April 4, 2013 at 12:24 am | #

      No, no, I can’t punch you in the face. The Internet is in the way.

  25. Plasma Mongoose
    Plasma Mongoose
    April 4, 2013 at 12:10 am | #

    I wonder if Leslie and her former husband started this way.

    • Dr.Z
      Dr.Z
      April 4, 2013 at 12:50 am | #

      Judging from the comics we’ve seen, it looks like she figured out she was gay on their wedding night.

      Youch.

      • turbanous
        turbanous
        April 4, 2013 at 6:17 am | #

        In shortpacked Leslie told robin that she knew she was gay at 8 after seeing princess Lea in Return of the Jedi.
        http://www.shortpacked.com/2009/comic/book-9/01-fired/chastityballs/
        I think there is another shortpacked comic that I cannot find right now where it says she came out to her husband 3 months into her marriage.
        The comic itself was about the worst times to come out of the closet, one of the other panels had DOA Ethan on the phone with his mother.

        • timemonkey
          timemonkey
          April 4, 2013 at 9:08 am | #

          She didn’t say she realised it then, she said that was her first gay attraction. They become much more obvious once you realise you’re gay and look back.

    • John
      John
      April 4, 2013 at 2:11 am | #

      I wonder if Leslie’s been married in this universe.

      • Rognik
        Rognik
        April 4, 2013 at 4:00 am | #

        While this is a perfectly valid question to ask, I am highly tempted to ask seemingly already answered questions along the lines of “Is Ethan gay in this universe?” in response. Such as, “Is Joyce Christian in this universe?” It’s mean-spirited and unwarranted, but I hear that confession is good for the soul. So I’m just putting this out there.

        • MrSmiley
          MrSmiley
          April 4, 2013 at 6:51 am | #

          I’ll take that as a fun way to say yes.

        • John
          John
          April 4, 2013 at 10:51 pm | #

          Totally different things. Those are qualities either intrinsic to the person or central to the character. We’ve seen, though, that characters’ backstories can vary wildly. Ethan’s still tall, dark, gay, and a toy nerd; he’s not a failed stand-up comedian. Joyce is still blonde, blue-eyed, and a sheltered yet boy-obsessed fundamentalist Christian; she’s not a superpowered alien abductee.

          I’m assuming Leslie’s still gay, just like she’s still blonde. I’m assuming Leslie’s still nineteen kinds of awesome and too nice and forgiving for her own good, because those are the things that make Leslie Leslie. Whether this universe’s Leslie has an ill-advised marriage to a man in her backstory… I have no idea, and I’m kind of curious.

          We do know she never dated Malaya in this universe, because teaching Gender Studies in Indiana is the price she had to pay for that retcon.

          • John
            John
            April 4, 2013 at 11:43 pm | #

            I also wonder… people keep asking if Ethan is still gay. Does anyone ask if Leslie is still a lesbian?

  26. Amanda
    Amanda
    April 4, 2013 at 12:11 am | #

    And then Amazi-Girl swoops in and cracks their heads together.

  27. Kernanator
    Kernanator
    April 4, 2013 at 12:11 am | #

    My mind is full of fuck.

    • Wack'd
      Wack'd
      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 am | #

      Maybe you should date Joyce so she can fix that for you.

    • Doctor_Who
      Doctor_Who
      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 am | #

      Which suits your avatar nicely, I must say.

      Of course, since we’ve SEEN the inside of Joyce’s head, it’s not an entirely inaccurate statement.

    • Plasma Mongoose
      Plasma Mongoose
      April 4, 2013 at 12:16 am | #

      So is your cap. 😛

    • Yotomoe
      Yotomoe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:27 am | #

      My mind is full of shit.

      • begbert2
        begbert2
        April 4, 2013 at 3:56 pm | #

        My shit is full of mind.

        It’s currently biding its time, but one day…

  28. DanielleM
    DanielleM
    April 4, 2013 at 12:11 am | #

    Nope. Bad idea, bad idea.

  29. The Sound Defense
    The Sound Defense
    April 4, 2013 at 12:12 am | #

    It’s not going to last, but does it have to? If they enjoy each other’s company, and they understand what each other wants/needs, then what’s wrong with it?

    • Joe
      Joe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 am | #

      “I have the patience to guide you” sound a lot less like understanding his wants/needs and a lot more like a resolution to change him.

      • MM
        MM
        April 4, 2013 at 12:20 am | #

        That, plus I don’t think Joyce really wants to acknowledge her own needs.

      • Plasma Mongoose
        Plasma Mongoose
        April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

        A girl wanting to change the guy she is dating? What maddness is this you speak of? 😛

        • Joe
          Joe
          April 4, 2013 at 12:36 am | #

          From what I understand, it’s generally more subtle.

          • Plasma Mongoose
            Plasma Mongoose
            April 4, 2013 at 12:52 am | #

            This is more subtle, at least by Joyce standards.

          • Dr.Z
            Dr.Z
            April 4, 2013 at 1:12 am | #

            Ha! Cute.

  30. Barf Ninjason
    Barf Ninjason
    April 4, 2013 at 12:13 am | #

    And lo! Joyce turned out to be one of those super-literal teen-aged Christians, consideringeth only P within V to be Sex, and didst so present that which she hath in common with men to Ethan. And behold! Ethan closedeth his eyes and thought of England.

  31. Joe
    Joe
    April 4, 2013 at 12:13 am | #

    It’s like watching a Rube Goldberg machine of bad decisions in slow motion.
    Tomorrow, the camera pans over a couple feet to the right and we see Amber about to explode.

  32. NerdHerder
    NerdHerder
    April 4, 2013 at 12:16 am | #

    This is “Guess Who’s Coming to Galasso’s,” aka “The One Where Joyce Willingly Becomes a Beard”.

  33. ridtom
    ridtom
    April 4, 2013 at 12:16 am | #

    No..no, no, no, no, no WILLIS WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! NOW I HAVE TO SHIP THIS, GOSH DARNIT!

    • Plasma Mongoose
      Plasma Mongoose
      April 4, 2013 at 12:17 am | #

      This is one ship that needs a response from some U-boats.

      • Rex Hondo
        Rex Hondo
        April 4, 2013 at 2:26 am | #

        I don’t think we even need to call the U-boats. This ship was pre-built with a hole that’s never getting plugged.

        • Tbf
          Tbf
          April 4, 2013 at 7:58 am | #

          A *couple* of holes that are never getting plugged. Heyo!

          • tyren22
            tyren22
            April 4, 2013 at 12:00 pm | #

            That made me laugh more than I feel liike it should have.

            • tyren22
              tyren22
              April 4, 2013 at 12:00 pm | #

              See? See what that joke did to my typing?!

    • Aras Pabedinskas
      Aras Pabedinskas
      April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

      I thought shipping was about putting anyone you want together, regardless of what the canonical pairings are. How does this get in the way?

    • Aizat
      Aizat
      April 4, 2013 at 12:57 am | #

      You know, you don’t really have to ship this? I know you’re being sarcastic(I hope) but it’s not like there’s a guy pointing a gun at the back of your head and forcing you to do so.

      • timemonkey
        timemonkey
        April 4, 2013 at 9:06 am | #

        Un;ess reading them like this has caused ridtom to actually like the relationship between them. Then shipping is out of his/her hands as it will happen regardless of logic.

  34. TPman
    TPman
    April 4, 2013 at 12:18 am | #

    After last the last strip I was still holding out hope. Now, the only thing that can save this is a last minute about face by Ethan. They’ve got ~2 strips before their misfortunes are sealed.

    • MrSmiley
      MrSmiley
      April 4, 2013 at 6:57 am | #

      nah, mike’s gonna sleep with ethan.
      we’re going to expect joyce to break up with ethan for cheating on her.
      she forgives him, and asks him to repent for his sexual encounter.
      …
      1 or more comics later ethan breaks up with her cause mike makes him realize its a dumb relationship.

  35. Miles Dryden
    Miles Dryden
    April 4, 2013 at 12:19 am | #

    Joyce wanting to “fix” Ethan makes sense in-character. Ethan being ok with this does NOT.

    • TPman
      TPman
      April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

      I don’t think he’s picking up on that aspect of things. In his mind things just went miraculously right, and he ain’t seeing nothing but that.

    • timemonkey
      timemonkey
      April 4, 2013 at 12:31 am | #

      I dunno, being stupid is kind of all he’s done in DoA so far. That and be whiney.

      • Andiemus
        Andiemus
        April 4, 2013 at 3:43 pm | #

        Exactly. He’s been a friggin idiot throughout this whole shebang. I’m a little hesitant on the whiny, but stupid? Oh yeah.

    • Plasma Mongoose
      Plasma Mongoose
      April 4, 2013 at 12:33 am | #

      Except that he also doesn’t want to be gay, so that explains it somewhat.

    • Jelli
      Jelli
      April 4, 2013 at 12:37 am | #

      Ethan just told Amber that he was dating Joyce because he wanted to be in the closet and because he was very uncomfortable with his friends knowing he was gay. Does this sound like the actions of someone who’s comfortable with and accepting of their own sexuality?

    • Greenygal
      Greenygal
      April 4, 2013 at 2:28 am | #

      Back when this originally started, Ethan was saying that he wanted to pretend to be heterosexual for the rest of his life. Joyce has just told him that she’s okay with being the girl he pretends to be heterosexual with. She didn’t even put it in condemnatory terms. Of course Ethan thinks this is awesome.

  36. 31stwalker
    31stwalker
    April 4, 2013 at 12:21 am | #

    Not sure if this is complete denial is or trainwreck soon waiting to happen.

    • MM
      MM
      April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

      Yes?

      • StClair
        StClair
        April 4, 2013 at 3:45 am | #

        Yes.

    • Joe
      Joe
      April 4, 2013 at 12:24 am | #

      One, by way of the other.

  37. Tom Speelman
    Tom Speelman
    April 4, 2013 at 12:22 am | #

    This will not end well…but oh boy, am I intrigued. Well played, Willis.

  38. slicey
    slicey
    April 4, 2013 at 12:23 am | #

    huh as an openly gay woman who has once been in a long term romantic relationship with a straight man im kind of insulted by the reality pill people. people can love each other without being sexual attracted to each other.

    • Aras Pabedinskas
      Aras Pabedinskas
      April 4, 2013 at 12:30 am | #

      I’m all for love like that, because that’s the type of love Robin has for Leslie in Shortpacked!, but here, Joyce is basically saying she doesn’t want to accept a part of Ethan’s identity, which is probably unhealthy in a relationship (I’ve never been in one, but that is what media tells me).

      • Jelli
        Jelli
        April 4, 2013 at 12:41 am | #

        Well, that and the relationship is also based on Ethan not wanting to accept a part of Ethan’s identity. A relationship based on mutual fear of other relationships isn’t a good starting point.

      • Theozilla
        Theozilla
        April 4, 2013 at 12:56 am | #

        Actually Robin in Shortpacked! is sexually attracted Leslie; Robin in general is not attracted women but for her Leslie is her exception.

        But yeah, I do agree with the rest of your comment. Joyce accepted the fact that Ethan is sexually attracted males but in the manner that she views it as a sinful temptation that she can cure eventually. Which also seems to be a goal she is willing to have a long term dedication to if her line “I have the patience to guide you” is indicative of anything. That I agree is probably an unhealthy relationship.
        However, one thing I am still slightly unclear on is, does Ethan fully comprehend what Joyce plans to do with their relationship in the long run? (and is he actually okay with that?) or does he still not understand her intentions completely and is thus ignorant (perhaps willfully) of Joyce’s long term goals?

    • someguywithakatana
      someguywithakatana
      April 4, 2013 at 12:33 am | #

      This^

      Except for the part about being a gay woman. I’m a straight man. But I get what you’re saying.

      Also, is anyone else here in favor of just giving Joyce the benefit of the doubt? Yeah, there is definitely an element of “I’m going to fix you” in what she’s saying, but it lacks the air of moral superiority that usually accompanies it. And all things considered, she’s being fairly accepting of him (Yes, I’m aware that acceptance and fixing are contradictory. People in general are contradictory by nature.)

      Do I think this is the best situation possible? Not really. At the same time, at least from my perspective, Joyce seems well-intentioned. The sentence that seems to define her mind-set isn’t the patience to guide thing. It’s “I will never give up on you.” She’s doing her best with the upbringing and tools she has to work with.

      And Ethan…? Well… He’s not lying anymore… So good on him.

      • MM
        MM
        April 4, 2013 at 1:30 am | #

        I don’t think most people are questioning they have good intentions. It’s just we know where those usually lead.

        • someguywithakatana
          someguywithakatana
          April 4, 2013 at 2:18 am | #

          Oh no I totally get “This is going to end horribly.” It’s just that I keep reading comments like “Welp! There’s Joyce just being terrible again! Isn’t she a horrendous human being?”

          • John
            John
            April 4, 2013 at 3:11 am | #

            One of the things that makes Joyce a complex character (and there’s a phrase I never thought I’d write back in the Roomies! days) is that she does sometimes do terrible things (or bad things, anyway… “terrible” is probably a bit strong for anything this Joyce has done, though Walkyverse Joyce had a couple moments that might qualify), but she’s not a horrendous human being. She’s a genuinely nice person doing her best to do right by the people around her, with a social toolbox and worldview that are woefully inadequate for the task.

            • someguywithakatana
              someguywithakatana
              April 4, 2013 at 1:25 pm | #

              I think Willis said it best himself. Joyce genuinely wants to be a kind person, but if kindness is a soup, she’s been given a fork.

              And what makes this moment work is that she’s almost there. She isn’t rejecting him as a human (for the most part) or being hurtful. She still has the fork but Gaht-dangit, she is shoveling every last drop of soup that clings to that fork into his mouth.

              • John
                John
                April 4, 2013 at 11:03 pm | #

                And only accidentally stabbing him in the mouth a little bit.

    • Somebody
      Somebody
      April 4, 2013 at 12:34 am | #

      Or maybe you’re attracted to both.

      • someguywithakatana
        someguywithakatana
        April 4, 2013 at 12:36 am | #

        I’m sure she considered that at one point. Do I need to go get the Kinsey scale?

    • Totz the Plaid
      Totz the Plaid
      April 4, 2013 at 12:40 am | #

      You could be panromantic-homosexual… Able to find romance with someone of any gender, but only sexually interested in women.

      There’s a lot more to sexuality than just gay/bi/straight.

      • Tbf
        Tbf
        April 4, 2013 at 8:04 am | #

        Yeah, but Ethan probably isn’t bi-romantic. Amber said Ethan didn’t love her the way she wanted him to. I don’t think she meant with his penis.

  39. Minder
    Minder
    April 4, 2013 at 12:25 am | #

    Oh dear god this is just a typhoon of misery and misunderstanding waiting to happen but I still feel so much sympathy for both of them.

  40. Milosh
    Milosh
    April 4, 2013 at 12:25 am | #

    Ethan’s really okay with Joyce trying to “cure” him? Does he not understand what she’s saying?

    • Minder
      Minder
      April 4, 2013 at 12:33 am | #

      He’s lonely and desperate and VERY DEPRESSED. I’ve seen people stick with incompatible relationships for less.

    • timemonkey
      timemonkey
      April 4, 2013 at 12:36 am | #

      What she’s saying is she’s onboard with his plan of stupidity. We’ve gone from Ethan secretly using Joyce to not be gay anymore so life ill seem easier to Joyce agreeing to help Ethan not appear gay anymore so life will seem easier. Their individual stupidity have merged together to create a greater stupidity. And they did it without supervision so there’s nobody around to halty the momentum and keep it from growing further.

  41. Mo
    Mo
    April 4, 2013 at 12:25 am | #

    OK, so this sounds more like Joyce.

  42. Kernanator
    Kernanator
    April 4, 2013 at 12:28 am | #

    It’s like… I’m certain this is going to end badly, but at the same time, it’s cute, or something? I don’t know, it’s making me feel like 15 billion different things at once. Which is making me confused.

    I don’t even know what I’m talking about.

  43. Memyself
    Memyself
    April 4, 2013 at 12:30 am | #

    This would be funnier if it wasn’t also so damn sad.

  44. Delimann
    Delimann
    April 4, 2013 at 12:31 am | #

    Oh god, going from Shortpacked to here was a hell of a mood swing. From dumb giggling to “Oh noooooooooooo.”

  45. Somebody
    Somebody
    April 4, 2013 at 12:32 am | #

    Temptation to…feel attracted to the same sex? I guess guys are sinning ever time they get an erection then. =/

    • Delimann
      Delimann
      April 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm | #

      I’m not really getting what you mean here? Maybe I’m just being dense but I don’t follow your logic.

      • Li
        Li
        April 4, 2013 at 9:24 pm | #

        I think he means *gays? But I’m not sure.

  46. Leorale
    Leorale
    April 4, 2013 at 12:32 am | #

    This strip made me really sad. Damn you, Willis.

    Also, I’ve been very sympathetic towards Joyce since the beginning. It’s actually her flippant “except, like cancer, I guess” that makes me hate her for the very first time.

    Everything else I can chalk up to a very problematic culture. But that last bit? What the hell, Joyce?

    • someguywithakatana
      someguywithakatana
      April 4, 2013 at 12:35 am | #

      Willis strip rules #39- Punchline syndrome. Sometimes characters have to say horrible things for the sake of having the strip end in a joke. 9 times out of 10, you can’t really hold this against them.

    • Tortoiseshell Bat
      Tortoiseshell Bat
      April 4, 2013 at 1:32 am | #

      Can I ask what you find bothersome about that? I mean, it was flippant, but people *do* tell people with cancer “God doesn’t give us anything we can’t handle.” It’s nice to know Joyce wouldn’t be one of those people.

      (Plus as a narrative device it points out that no, God/the universe does give us things we can’t handle, sort of poking a hole in Joyce’s argument without her really thinking about it.)

    • Spiny Creature
      Spiny Creature
      April 4, 2013 at 10:37 am | #

      How is that wrong? Better than the unfortunately common type of Christian, who will tell people undergoing things they legitimately cannot cope with (often cancer, but also the death of a child, etc.) that “God doesn’t give us anything we can’t handle.” That just invalidates people’s suffering by implying they could “deal with it” if they believed harder.

      Joyce saying that actually made me like her MORE. She’s ridiculing an insensitive cliche often said by other religious people to “help” the dying or grieving.

    • Leorale
      Leorale
      April 4, 2013 at 11:14 am | #

      Oh. Thanks for the explanations, guys. I wasn’t aware of the insensitive line being hella common, for one thing. That helps a lot.

  47. Uniqueantique
    Uniqueantique
    April 4, 2013 at 12:32 am | #

    Bad way to go. Joyce apparently does not accept him as he is,gay.
    But, I’ve known a couple of fundamentalist and they stated that being gay was by choice…if you want not to be gay, just think about it and you won’t be. I did not attempt to argue with them, a total waste of time. I just know that there are really people out there who feel like Joyce does, that if she ‘guides’ him he will see the error of his ways.
    But what if her daydream had a half a chance to come true, would she then have to fear him as being like all the rest of men, who try to ‘twist her’.
    I don’t think Ethan is all right with this, I think he just isn’t picking up on ‘I’ll be here to guide you’. I think he thinks she is offering to be his beard.
    Then again, if they both do know what the other is saying, accept it, and want to try to be happy together, go for it. Sure hope it don’t hurt to much.

    • Ronnie
      Ronnie
      April 4, 2013 at 7:41 pm | #

      Presumably, if her fantasy happened, they would have bonded on a level that would not allow him to ‘twist her’. Because actually deep relationship with a non-sexual basis.

  48. Yotomoe
    Yotomoe
    April 4, 2013 at 12:36 am | #

    A Fundie Christian girl…
    A Gay Jewish boy…
    One would think they have nothing in common
    But that’s ok. They’ll force it until they work!
    This summer.
    Kate hudginson as Joyce
    and Vince Vaun as Ethan
    Featuring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson as Joe.
    “The Really Bad Idea”
    coming soon April, 34th, 2008.

    • DEG1377
      DEG1377
      April 4, 2013 at 2:58 am | #

      … I might actually pay to watch this.

      Maybe. Perhaps.

    • Andiemus
      Andiemus
      April 4, 2013 at 3:44 pm | #

      The most honest RomCom ever.

  49. Googergeiger
    Googergeiger
    April 4, 2013 at 12:39 am | #

    Pray the gay away!

  50. UnspeakableAnger
    UnspeakableAnger
    April 4, 2013 at 12:43 am | #

    [Sigh]

    So Joyce is going to become Michelle Bachmann?

  51. Builder Bob
    Builder Bob
    April 4, 2013 at 12:44 am | #

    I’ll take unhealthy relationship that can and will only end badly for $1000 Alex.

    Oh look! The daily double!

  52. Chronomancer
    Chronomancer
    April 4, 2013 at 12:48 am | #

    It’s like a train wreck in slow motion… I need popcorn and a better seat.

  53. Aizat
    Aizat
    April 4, 2013 at 12:55 am | #

    I’m speechless…..I really am.

  54. Gizaru
    Gizaru
    April 4, 2013 at 1:13 am | #

    Wish I could say I didn’t know people in this situation.

  55. Thor
    Thor
    April 4, 2013 at 1:22 am | #

    I’m puzzled by all the hate for this pairing. Yes, it’s obviously doomed from the start, but most relationships are. I mean, every previous relationship all of us have had have ended, and usually badly. over half of all marriages end in divorce.

    Relationship are fragile and transient things, like soap bubbles on the wind. If they come out of this relationship with more good times than bad and wiser then when they started, then I will be considering this relationship a success, doomed though it might be.

    • Andiemus
      Andiemus
      April 4, 2013 at 3:46 pm | #

      Except that it’s patently obvious that this relationship WON’T do that. She wants a success story she can brag to all her fundie friends back home about, he wants to be straight despite knowing that he isn’t. How could anyone NOT hate this?

      • Thor
        Thor
        April 4, 2013 at 6:39 pm | #

        Because sometimes it’s more important to learn to not lie to yourself and others than it is to avoid a relationship that will go tits up sooner than later. Sometimes you have to get your feelings hurt to truly understand them.

  56. Foxhack
    Foxhack
    April 4, 2013 at 1:23 am | #

    Goddamnit.

  57. Nym
    Nym
    April 4, 2013 at 1:26 am | #

    Am I the only one still caught on Ethan’s, “I understand if you want to leave me now”? Between that and his wanting to shut his sexuality away, it looks like he wants to try this relationship as a relationship, as though denial will fix everything. I’m taking Joyce’s “guide you” as less “forcibly fix you” and more “guide you on this path you’ve already chosen which is similar to a path I’d like to choose for myself.”

    I’m not saying any of this is a *good* thing, but it’s definitely a highly sympathetic thing. Empathetic, even, on Ethan’s side for me, as I can remember trying to date people I didn’t actually want in college simply because I wanted to want them, wanted to be viewed as and actually be “normal.”

    I guess I am not really understanding all the Joyce hate here. They are both making terrible decisions, but they are both trying their best with what they’re given and where they are. My hope is that they’ll use the safety of this relationship in order to come to terms with themselves, their sexualities, and their experiences, and go on to remain good friends while seeing other people. Is this likely? Probably not. (Okay, definitely not.) But there’s a reason this is called “Dumbing of Age” instead of “Everyone is Already a Mature Adult who Makes Good Decisions” besides, y’know, the second title being absurdly clunky.

    • Tortoiseshell Bat
      Tortoiseshell Bat
      April 4, 2013 at 1:43 am | #

      Yeah, I feel really sad for both of them. I think they’re both ‘at fault’ here, if either of them are. Both of them are crushed under the weight of societal pressures, just trying to deal with them in ways that make sense to them, and both of them are very likely to hurt the other in the process.

      • StClair
        StClair
        April 4, 2013 at 3:47 am | #

        This.

    • clodia
      clodia
      April 4, 2013 at 8:41 am | #

      I think the Joyce hate is unreasonable. He is clearly understanding her suggestion, and accepting it with open arms. They are both making unhealthy emotional decisions.

      I simply think most people can sympathize with Ethan’s more than they can with Joyce’s.

    • Andiemus
      Andiemus
      April 4, 2013 at 3:48 pm | #

      It’s not Joyce hate (for me) so much as Joyce eye-rolling. Like “oh god, there it is again”. Ethan should fucking know better though.

  58. Talon
    Talon
    April 4, 2013 at 1:29 am | #

    This is the worst possible decision either of these two characters can make, and a very real part of me wants to tell you to please not write this story. But you know what? That very impulse is what makes this a story worth telling.

  59. Kensou
    Kensou
    April 4, 2013 at 1:31 am | #

    It’ll still be a healthier relationship than Joyce ah, PURSUING Danny back in the original ‘verse.

  60. gnome
    gnome
    April 4, 2013 at 1:31 am | #

    This is like watching a train wreck that collides with a primary school.

    • Khrene Cleaver
      Khrene Cleaver
      April 4, 2013 at 2:01 am | #

      Then skating over an old folks home and the rescue for adorable fuzzy animals.

  61. BigMadDraco
    BigMadDraco
    April 4, 2013 at 1:35 am | #

    I don’t know how, but I think it’s going to end worse than I did when this relationship started.

    • DEG1377
      DEG1377
      April 4, 2013 at 2:55 am | #

      How bad did you end when this relationship started?

  62. Kemp
    Kemp
    April 4, 2013 at 1:46 am | #

    This seems bad.

  63. wynne
    wynne
    April 4, 2013 at 1:56 am | #

    Oh God, is this going to become a “Saved!” kind of deal?

  64. brumagem
    brumagem
    April 4, 2013 at 1:59 am | #

    Ethan: willing to sacrifice sexual relationship (but not an emotional/romantic one) in favor of social conformism. I don’t agree with it, but as a non-flamboyant gay man myself I can see why he’d choose that road.

    Joyce: wants a man who will not ever pressure her for sex, ergo a gay man. At this point I think she doesn’t know sexual satisfaction long-term will be an issue, so she gets a pass for now.

    For the amount of experience Joyce and Ethan have, and their motivations thus far, I think they are both making the best decision they know how to make. I don’t think the relationship itself stands a snowball’s chance, and I hope it ends before they get married so they can both end up having emotionally -and- sexually fulfilling relations, but I’m impressed how well set-up all of this was.

    I tip my hat to you, Willis.

    • Stranger
      Stranger
      April 4, 2013 at 6:46 am | #

      Yeah, god forbid theyd actually deal with their issues rather than sink into denial

      • Thor
        Thor
        April 4, 2013 at 6:45 pm | #

        This seems to be the quickest way for them to deal with their issues. They aren’t go through the arduous process of figuring out where they actually stand on all things involving love and/or sex until the inevitable trainwreck forces them to.

        It’s hard to confront your demons if you don’t let yourself get anywhere near them. This relationship is the Express Train to Demonville, so they are on the right path.

    • Ronnie
      Ronnie
      April 4, 2013 at 7:44 pm | #

      “a man who will not ever pressure her for sex, ergo a gay man”
      Yes, because all straight men are ruled by their penis with an iron fist, just as all women are 70% tear-ducts, 20% sandwich-makers, and 10% pure PMS 😛

      • Jabbie
        Jabbie
        April 5, 2013 at 3:15 pm | #

        I think “pressure” here is being used in the most benign, innocent way. I dont think he meant to say that any straight man would consistently, actively pressure her to have sex. Rather that sexual tension in any long term, romantic relationship between two people attracted to each other is probably going to happen eventually….

  65. E.C.
    E.C.
    April 4, 2013 at 1:59 am | #

    Right about the safety, but for just about everything else:

    THAT’S WRONG! >_<

  66. Rufus Saltus
    Rufus Saltus
    April 4, 2013 at 2:00 am | #

    This comic is really helping me understand how and why situations arise where a homosexual person is in a relationship with a person of the opposite sex while being aware of their own sexuality. I don’t think it’s a healthy course of action, but this is allowing me to see the mindset that might lead someone there. Good job.

  67. Raibean
    Raibean
    April 4, 2013 at 2:29 am | #

    So did Joyce just come out or what
    I guess I’ll wait and see if she kisses Billie

  68. Greenygal
    Greenygal
    April 4, 2013 at 2:35 am | #

    I’m dying to see Sarah’s reaction to all this.

    • vsophi
      vsophi
      April 4, 2013 at 11:32 pm | #

      Says Sarah.

  69. Rex Hondo
    Rex Hondo
    April 4, 2013 at 2:36 am | #

    Aaaaand, there’s the other shoe…

    This cannot end well.

  70. Pat
    Pat
    April 4, 2013 at 2:42 am | #

    Ethan. Honey. You’re smarter than this and you know better.
    Joyce, honey… you’re, um… near several people who are smarter than this and know better.

  71. Jesse
    Jesse
    April 4, 2013 at 2:50 am | #

    Suddenly I can hear Dr. Cox in my head going “WRONG, wrong, WRONG, wrong…”

    • Charles RB
      Charles RB
      April 4, 2013 at 7:43 am | #

      I’m hearing Beelzeboss going “FUCK! FUCK! FUUUUUUUCK…”

  72. Aydr
    Aydr
    April 4, 2013 at 2:54 am | #

    …damn. I tried to be hopeful.

  73. ParadoxicalOne
    ParadoxicalOne
    April 4, 2013 at 3:02 am | #

    Aaaaand just when I thought Joyce might finally be becoming tolerable, this happens. When can we get back to the Ruth/Billie makeouts?

  74. maycroft
    maycroft
    April 4, 2013 at 3:38 am | #

    My answer to Joyce would be:

    “but He didin’t give you ethan to handle.”

  75. tahrey
    tahrey
    April 4, 2013 at 3:52 am | #

    New hashtag, #willisyoubastard
    😀

  76. Arkadi
    Arkadi
    April 4, 2013 at 3:54 am | #

    Today Shortpacked and DOA compete for “most disturbing and cringeworthy character pairing”. And I think it’s a tie.

    • Josh
      Josh
      April 4, 2013 at 3:09 pm | #

      Actually I think Ultra-Car x Mayala is a really cute platonic pairing.

  77. Gregory
    Gregory
    April 4, 2013 at 4:06 am | #

    I’m actually really touched. This is going to end in flames, as a certainty, but this moment is actually really very beautiful.

  78. Josh
    Josh
    April 4, 2013 at 4:15 am | #

    God dammit Joyce. I’m glad you’re not going down the pray the gay away route, but this is pulling a close second.

    Ethan. http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96wptb62D1qfc0m4.gif

  79. Love is Mathematical
    Love is Mathematical
    April 4, 2013 at 4:26 am | #

    I just hope you stop it before they become this, Willis:

    http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html

    • Li
      Li
      April 4, 2013 at 7:46 am | #

      That is one of the most depressing things I’ve ever read, no less so for the way they both keep insisting they are SUPER happy like that 😀

      What’s the worst part?

      That they’ve been together since they were sixteen, and therefore have no other sex to compare with their sex lives of amazing emotional fulfillment

      That they both think this is the only way their god will ever love or accept him

      That he “pretends” to call a woman’s adopted children counterfeit but REALLY DOES think he could never have been happy without children that were the product of heterosexual sex

      I mostly just feel intense pity for them both. They think their marriage is perfect but it is literally true that they could have ALL THE SAME THINGS and also be with someone who was sexually attracted to/sexually attractive for them. I didn’t want to judge, going into that, and romance without sex is perfectly possible! But there is no part of what they describe that doesn’t sound hollow and dead inside.

  80. Caffienated
    Caffienated
    April 4, 2013 at 5:32 am | #

    I want to play the gay boyfriend song now that I saw this. :p

  81. Rust
    Rust
    April 4, 2013 at 5:39 am | #

    This is a right relationship for all the wrong reasons.

    Joyce wants to feel safe after her attempted rape, so Ethan’s a great choice in that regard (Plus he is generally a all around nice guy, so that’s a nice boon).

    Ethan’s on a journey of self-discovery and wants to “start fresh”. Unfortunately, he’s doing it wrong.

    It’s a sad thing that this is going to end so horribly, but I can’t fault either of them for their choices at the moment.

    • Zaxares
      Zaxares
      April 4, 2013 at 5:43 am | #

      All true. I can’t see this ending in anything but a torrent of tears, possibly even spiteful tears, after grave mistakes are made several years down the line, but all the same… This may be exactly what both of them need right now. Somewhere to feel safe. Somewhere to give themselves time to sort through their emotions and come to terms with who they are.

      I just hope that both of them come through with their innate good heart intact.

  82. Gnomekingofpain
    Gnomekingofpain
    April 4, 2013 at 5:43 am | #

    For me the most horrifying thing about this storyline is how plausible I find it to be.

    P.S. I finally got around to buying the Joyce and Walky strips last night. A quick thanks to David for getting them out so fast.

  83. Knight
    Knight
    April 4, 2013 at 5:43 am | #

    “You’re safe” is NOT a compliment a person with minimal issues wants to hear. How is that good in this situation, Ethan?

  84. Chase
    Chase
    April 4, 2013 at 6:41 am | #

    Oh great, now she can “save him” while he tries to figure out who he is. I think she’s just gonna make stuff way more confusing for him.

  85. Stranger
    Stranger
    April 4, 2013 at 6:44 am | #

    Oh goodie, they have decided to enter a relationship based on delusions, deniaal and refusal to deaal with your issues. This isnt healthy, this is super bad. Which its obviously meant to be seen as, but since some people in the comments actually SUPPORT it…

  86. turbanous
    turbanous
    April 4, 2013 at 7:01 am | #

    Having read these comments it seems that a lot of the anger about this come down to Joyce’s word choice.
    On its own “I will never give up on you” would mean that she will still be his friend. Yet coupled with her “guiding” him to “resist” his “overwhelming temptations” it takes a different tone.

    Also a people seem to have forgotten that just yesterday Ethan said “I wish I could ignore the stuff going on in my pants … Just shut it up and lock it away forever.”

    In the end all Joyce is doing is supporting Ethan’s desire to be straight. It’s not the healthiest thing nor “the right” thing to do but it seems that this is what they both need right now.
    She needs someone to feel safe around in regards to the party. He needs someone to be his friend who might be able to see that he is more than gay.
    I hope that whatever develops between them helps them to grow and become more comfortable with themselves, and when/if Amber finds out she will understand his motivations.

    • Kas
      Kas
      April 4, 2013 at 7:57 am | #

      This. While it might be the best the choice, it might be just what they need right now. Joyce definitely needs some cool-down time after her assault but she’s so driven on finding Mr. Right that I don’t think she has taken the time to sort through all her feelings in regards to that situation. I hope that this…. arrangement with Ethan will give her a chance to sort through her feelings since she won’t feel the pressure of looking for her future husband or worrying about what this boy wants from her.

      As for Ethan, I don’t really feel like it’s a good situation for him at all. All he’s really getting out of it is escapism, and eventually I think he’s going to find that this isn’t making him happy. Hopefully he’ll be able to overcome his own demons before it gets to the point that Joyce breaks up with him because she’s overcome hers and isn’t happy in their arrangement any more, because if he isn’t I fear it might mess him up more because he’s trying to hard to make the straight path work for him and keeps “messing it up”.

    • Andiemus
      Andiemus
      April 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm | #

      If that’s what they were actually looking for, maybe. But it’s not. Ethan is not looking for recognition as more than gay, hell, both Amber and Mike obviously do that Mike treats him exactly the same as everyone else and Amber still nerds out with him on occasion according to their previous conversations. What he’s looking for is someone who will turn him straight, or at least not gay, and Joyce is looking for a MRS degree.

  87. Bunk
    Bunk
    April 4, 2013 at 7:50 am | #

    So glad this went the “I’m safe with you” as opposed to the “I can fix you” route.

    • Creativerealms
      Creativerealms
      April 4, 2013 at 8:24 am | #

      I got the implication that it means both. She is going to try to change him but she will take her time because she’s safe around him.

    • Josh
      Josh
      April 4, 2013 at 3:06 pm | #

      The ‘I’m safe with you’ is totally reasonable conclusion based on her issues. however the ‘overwhelming temptations that we both have to learn to resist’ is back down you need fixing route.

  88. Amit
    Amit
    April 4, 2013 at 7:51 am | #

    And that’s how Michele met Marcus.

  89. clodia
    clodia
    April 4, 2013 at 8:45 am | #

    You know, if they both had therapy and came to grips with their neurosis, fears, and discomfort with their sexuality, then I might be okay with this relationship. It is not one I would choose for myself, as I value personal expression over conformity to societal norms. However, I know that that is a choice that people can make for themselves.

    However, both of them are going into this relationship from a place of deep rooted insecurity and fear about themselves and the world, and that is not healthy. It wouldn’t be if they were compatible sexually.

    • Andiemus
      Andiemus
      April 4, 2013 at 1:29 pm | #

      If Ethan came to grips with his issues, he wouldn’t be doing this shit.

      • clodia
        clodia
        April 4, 2013 at 2:24 pm | #

        And neither would Joyce.

        • Andiemus
          Andiemus
          April 4, 2013 at 5:39 pm | #

          Therefore there isn’t a way this could ever work.

  90. Gravataranatorous
    Gravataranatorous
    April 4, 2013 at 9:26 am | #

    Joyce makes an excellent mustache.

  91. nimoy
    nimoy
    April 4, 2013 at 9:33 am | #

    I’m just imaging the looks on Joyce’s parents’ faces when their daughter brings home the studly GAY JEW that she wants to marry.

    O_o … o_O … O_O … >_< … O_O WUT?!?!

    Unfortunately, this probably won't last until the holidays…

  92. Alexx
    Alexx
    April 4, 2013 at 9:51 am | #

    Yes, together we can shove our personal problems down SO deep that we won’t even recognize them anymore! Nothing will be a problem so long as our surface has a smile!

  93. Axel Bordelon
    Axel Bordelon
    April 4, 2013 at 10:23 am | #

    Wow….. Willis, you are a very well thought out writer. This is very much wrong, and yet I could see people make this mistake. Very believable!

  94. Farmer_10
    Farmer_10
    April 4, 2013 at 10:32 am | #

    This should make for a good story-arc.

  95. Notebooked
    Notebooked
    April 4, 2013 at 10:32 am | #

    Hm. Hm.

    Eeentiresting.

  96. Brain
    Brain
    April 4, 2013 at 11:07 am | #

    Why did Ethan even come out in highschool in the first place? If he had wanted to live a heterosexual life, he could have just used Amber. He didn’t need to come out and cause all the drama with his parents. He could have just acted like he didn’t want to have sex with her because he “wasn’t ready” or something like that.I thought he’d actually want to get a boyfriend and have satisfying sex. This relationship is not going to be good.

  97. JA
    JA
    April 4, 2013 at 11:36 am | #

    Yeah, this isn’t going to blow up at some point…

    • Manly Bowler
      Manly Bowler
      April 4, 2013 at 11:50 am | #

      Oh, but the joy we’ll have until then!

    • CRtwenty
      CRtwenty
      April 4, 2013 at 12:21 pm | #

      Be serious, Willis would never do anything like that.

      • JA
        JA
        April 5, 2013 at 2:38 am | #

        It would be a genuinely more interesting storyline if it did. Plenty of opportunity for character development…

        • JA
          JA
          April 5, 2013 at 2:39 am | #

          I only say this because you can’t have roses and butterflies all the time. Without conflict, there’s really no room for story development.

  98. TheWogglebugMustDie
    TheWogglebugMustDie
    April 4, 2013 at 11:54 am | #

    Remember, they’re both freshmen. A lot of college relationships are driven by jumping in too deeply too fast without thinking.

  99. wtf
    wtf
    April 4, 2013 at 12:01 pm | #

    y’all know joyce is being a piece of shit hetero scum right now? like this isn’t cute and this isn’t a “complex relationship.” she is being oppressive and this actually actually actually is abusive of her.

  100. Ashley
    Ashley
    April 4, 2013 at 12:46 pm | #

    Ethan if you had even the slightest bit of sense…
    …
    …
    Well… you don’t I guess. Carry on.

  101. bunivasal
    bunivasal
    April 4, 2013 at 1:57 pm | #

    Man, the commentary on this is kind of funny. It just proves that moralizing condescension isn’t restricted to Christians.

    Do I think their relationship is horrifying on a number of levels? Absolutely. Am I willing to be begrudgingly sympathetic while questioning their motivation? Probably. We’re only marginally more accepting, aren’t we?

    • Wack'd
      Wack'd
      April 4, 2013 at 2:41 pm | #

      So you see only a marginal difference between shaming someone for being gay and shaming someone for trying to rewrite someone else’s sexuality?

  102. Pinja
    Pinja
    April 4, 2013 at 2:25 pm | #

    God has a plan for all of us

    …

    Death

    • Dr.Z
      Dr.Z
      April 4, 2013 at 3:09 pm | #

      And taxes.

      Please don’t forget the taxes. 😀

  103. Volkai
    Volkai
    April 4, 2013 at 3:07 pm | #

    Hmm. Interesting.

    I bet this will probably end poorly, but I’m interested to see where the comic goes with this – in particular, I’m curious to see if it somehow ends in an okay way and if so how.

  104. Robert
    Robert
    April 4, 2013 at 3:23 pm | #

    Why do I have this overwhelming feeling that Joyce will find herself very embarrassingly pregnant by the end of the semester?

    • Josh
      Josh
      April 4, 2013 at 3:31 pm | #

      My god that would be amazing. xD

    • Aeyt
      Aeyt
      April 4, 2013 at 3:48 pm | #

      I very well may die from laughter if that happens. It’ll be like that movie. was it called Saved? “I had sex with him to turn him away from sin.” lawlz!

  105. Aeyt
    Aeyt
    April 4, 2013 at 3:49 pm | #

    Whatever happens, it’s not going to end well.

  106. DragonStryk72
    DragonStryk72
    April 4, 2013 at 4:05 pm | #

    Okay a few points:

    1. Joyce is NOT being accepting. She’s accepting that she can change him, and make him what she wants him to be. That isn’t acceptance, and I’m saying this as a Catholic.

    2. Really? We have to keep seeing these two together? This is a horrible relationship, and just when we get to the point where both can grow and move on, we just stall that out. I REALLY don’t want to see this relationship continue, because all it will mean is needless, unfunny drama as every single person around Ethan and Joyce react to the fact that this is a horrible idea that will hurt them both terribly.

    3. This is not a good story-arc. Think about it for a moment, where does this go: We keep watching everyone who isn’t a complete and utter moron point out that Ethan is not attracted to Joyce, and that Joyce is actually purposely manipulating him. Sorry, but no, this does not, and will not work. I cannot imagine the scenario where Ethan’s parents would be okay with this situation.

    4. As for the “as long as they’re happy”. Stoned people are happy, but we get in the way of that to stop them from ODing, yeah? As well, they very much AREN’T happy, they’re scared and running away from problems they don’t want to have to deal with. That’s not any definition of happy.

    • Ronnie
      Ronnie
      April 4, 2013 at 4:42 pm | #

      I offer you this piece of wisdom from Richard O’Brien- The sun never sets on those that ride into it. 😉

    • begbert2
      begbert2
      April 4, 2013 at 9:00 pm | #

      Agreed on 1.

      Disagree on 2 – it need not go that way, and it need not be unfunny. Sure, all the things they actually *want* to do are unfunny, but whose to say how that will play out? Given that Ethan is G-A-Y gay and has been stated as such by Word of God to be a multiversal constant, Joyce will not actually succeed in bringing about the horror of turning him straight. Instead she’s going to fail, and be frustrated, and try to overcompensate, and make a fool of herself, until she snaps and takes on the killer Joyce persona that she’s broken out a few times already and attempts to rip him one – at which point Amazi-Girl can suddenly appear and flatten her. And all during this time Ethan is watching the ‘relationship’ with detached aloofness, unable to feel anything more than gradually increasing pity and annoyance at Joyce’s ways and actions, until he decided to shave the beard and politely drops her like a bad habit, at which point she tries to kill him and we’re back to plot route one, if that hasn’t happened first. Or Mike does something that destroys them both with hilarious brilliance in one tenth the time. And all the while we’re cutting back and forth to other characters and plots giving us fun and fanservice and cutting away before anything actually R-rated. Yay!

      Disagree on 3 – see 2. Anything can happen. Except Joyce succeeding in her narsty little plan to change him.

      Agree on 4. But we’re not here to watch people be happy, now are we?

  107. Ray
    Ray
    April 4, 2013 at 4:20 pm | #

    Anything I can think of to say about Ethan will probably sound judgmental. In this day and age, homosexuality isn’t broadly considered to be wrong or unusual, but the human brain likes to simplify things, so identifying people based on a trait they have that is the most distinctive is totally a thing that happens. So yeah, a totally openly gay Ethan would be known as the “gay guy”. Mostly in a non-judgmental way, but a lot of things sound judgmental even when not meant as such.

    I think Ethan, both here and in Shortpacked!, has a lot of identity issues that extend a lot deeper than his sexual orientation. This thing with Joyce, well, isn’t likely to help him but I suspect it won’t make things any worse either.

    Joyce on the other hand, well honestly her heart’s in the right place but she can’t help but run towards extremes. There’s nothing wrong with wanting relationships yet waiting until marriage for having sex. That so many have abandoned that, well, to each their own I guess but the pressures it puts on the remaining old fashioned folks is a thing that exists. What Joyce really wants is a boyfriend that won’t pressure her for sex right now, but will totally want to make babies with her in the future after the wedding. Ethan may be the former but he’s certainly not the latter, so she’s setting herself up for disappointment, though she’s clinging to the outdated and incorrect belief that gays can be “fixed”. On the other hand, plenty of college relationships are short lived anyway, so it may never get that far. What Joyce really needs right now is experience socializing with non-sheltered people her own age, and Ethan is probably a good facilitator for that.

    So even though this whole set-up screams “train wreck”, it actually may work out to be a good idea. Or a train wreck, because it’s fiction and train wrecks are an easy way to generate lots of drama.

  108. condor2013
    condor2013
    April 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm | #

    this CANNOT go well

  109. HotRider
    HotRider
    April 4, 2013 at 4:53 pm | #

    I was fearing/hoping for this. Fearing because I don’t think its a good idea as a person, hoping because it makes drama and bullshit which is great for stories. So she is going to try to change him eh? This reminded me of a queer anarchist I talked to at a Occupy event, shirt said “Gay away the pray”. I lol’d

  110. Zoey
    Zoey
    April 4, 2013 at 7:06 pm | #

    Da Faq just happen?!

  111. zerotkatama
    zerotkatama
    April 4, 2013 at 7:31 pm | #

    I’m still kinda annoyed at Ethan for what seems like spitting on Amber’s efforts helping him come out in the first place.

  112. AWildReader
    AWildReader
    April 4, 2013 at 7:43 pm | #

    gg

  113. Enkai
    Enkai
    April 4, 2013 at 9:41 pm | #

    http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/04-time-keeps-on-slippin/revulsion/ Well, Sarah certainly called that one.

  114. BackslashEcho
    BackslashEcho
    April 8, 2013 at 2:33 pm | #

    Okay, I understand that it’s the character’s opinion, not necessarily the writer’s, but Joyce’s argument pisses me right off.
    Homosexuals don’t need “guidance to the right path” because homosexuality is a fact, not a choice.
    Then again, I’m arguing over a comic, so I suppose I should really just let it go.

  115. NinjaMaid
    NinjaMaid
    April 17, 2013 at 5:22 am | #

    I’m just worried that this storyline is going to devaluate non-sexual romantic relationships.

    Everyone seems to be saying that it’s not natural, unhealthy and wrong to be in one.

    I agree that both Joyce and Ethan should come to terms with their inherant sexuality, but if they want to pursue a romantic relationship with each other, that’s not wrong either.

    Sex doesn’t have to be the basis for a relationship.

    • Rory
      Rory
      August 5, 2013 at 10:28 pm | #

      Agreed.

  116. urusigh
    urusigh
    April 18, 2013 at 1:19 pm | #

    I think the comments have proved Ethan’s point, “the gay” overwhelms everything else…always. Last I heard college was good for something besides getting laid/married. Ethan wants to enjoy being “the guy who likes robots” or whatever instead of letting his biology run his social life. Joyce wants to feel safe and take her time while she comes to terms with the whole raging hormones thing too. He gives her safety and she gives him support in his choice. I expected a “bash-Joyce” moment, but instead it seems these two gyroscopes spinning out of control might actually spin stabilize each other. It’s sweet in a totally non-sexual way.

    I’m really kind of disturbed by the number of comments from people who seem to think that sexuality is the primary defining trait of a person or somehow unhealthy to learn to control. Lust isn’t hunger, a warning sign of you lacking something you need to live and grow. I figure lust is more like anger, to make constructive use of it you must first prevent it from using you. This situation has a lot of potential to show the characters off as more than just the stereotypes “gay man” and “rigid Christian”. That’s a good thing.

  117. Rory
    Rory
    August 5, 2013 at 10:27 pm | #

    This is kind of sweet, though, in its awkward misguided way. She can feel safe with him, and he can be loved by her. Eventually they’ll grow up and realize what they really need.

  118. God
    God
    September 30, 2013 at 11:05 am | #

    THIS CAN ONLY END POSITIVELY.

  119. ninja_jesus
    ninja_jesus
    October 7, 2013 at 12:17 pm | #

    WHOA WHOA WAIT A MINUTE.

    Willis… did you date a lesbian girl?

  120. Witch [Soul] of Heart
    Witch [Soul] of Heart
    February 2, 2014 at 12:20 am | #

    I will be the one who speaks out for those with cancer, as I lost a friend to it two years ago and still haven’t gotten over it.

    That wasn’t even remotely funny.
    If I hadn’t of spent my hour of crying and all my tears a while ago, I’d do it. and rip your throat out in the process.
    The only was to prevent this is to write more comics.

  121. BrokenEye, True False Prophet
    BrokenEye, True False Prophet
    September 19, 2015 at 1:05 am | #

    Turn it off / like a light switch!

  122. Onion
    Onion
    April 29, 2016 at 1:20 am | #

    Or maybe, y’know, being run over by a car…

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