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Again, kinda. The theory still exists, but it’s not really very popular anymore. As you said, most paleontologists don’t support it. But, still, the theory exists, so…kinda.
Actually, even with that, Triceratops wouldn’t be in limbo. It’s the senior classification, so Torosaurus would be in limbo, without pressing cause otherwise. It’s just that no-one knew what a Torosaurus was, so spinning that around and muddling the issue made more people read the story.
Well, if your little siblings are bigger than you, and they don’t get to be planets, it has a habit of getting you kicked out of the planetary bachelor- at least, for that season.
Meh, Ceres is cooler, first Dwarf Planet to be observed by a man-made satellite, closer to Earth than Pluto, isn’t so insecure about it’s dwarf-planethood that it needs sixty moons to keep it company.
Step up your game, “A Scientist”, if that even IS your real name.
Meh. Ceres didn’t have the spheres to leave the warmth of the sun and chance the outer darkness, clinging desperately to an orbit in which Sol rises and falls, casting heat on its surface. Pluto has been willing to plow through the dark and cold in a horrid realm where the is no dawn.
Ceres is so insecure that it insisted that all its satellites be small and subservient, dwarfed by the body which owns them. Pluto willingly shares its orbit with a satellite almost as big as it is itself, revolving eternally around a point well outside itself.
Pluto rocks the whole ninth rock around the sun sweepestakes.
It’s funny how you’re arguing about whether Persephone’s mom or husband is cooler.
(Did she have a different name in Roman mythology? I dunno. It’s all stolen from Greek anyway.)
In the other hand, the near-resonant orbits Pluto shares with its moons, the effect on those moons’ s shapes and rotations, and Pluto’s own intricate orbital resonance with Neptune are fascinating. Ceres does have that giant mountain and those cool bright spots to its credit, though.
Yeah, once we discover that Charon is really a mass relay, we can get our asses to Mars, excavate the Prothean ruins, start building the space navy, and hopefully make more progress on the Crucible before the Reapers arrive.
**points at his Tuxedo, Mask, and Rose** Pretty sure he IS using it. Just not to his full potential. Which is too bad – we could use more gender-shifting senshi.
You’re thinking of the Sailor Starlights. Also, they were always chicks and in senshi mode on their home planet. So technically the “transformation” was into human males when they arrived on Earth, the canon explanation being that they were looking for their princess who had a very specific scent and males have a better sense of smell than females so they somehow magically became human males. *shrugs*
In the manga, they just dressed and passed themselves off as men for… reasons I’m not clear on. The whole transformation bit was for the anime, because apparently outright female crossdressing was considered inappropriate.
There are a lot of anime/manga changes, but SuperS and Stars are probably the worst-hit. Chaos was a lot more important in the manga, Galaxia had a totally different origin, and the Sailor Animamates were ordinary soldiers who were given artificial sailor powers for betraying their Senshi/Guardians to Galaxia and her minions, which was the reason for the metallic theme naming and their lack of being named after celestial bodies of any sort.
I found an article about planetary scientists sniffing that Pluto was always a planet to them, just like any round body.
Which would make the Moon a planet. And Io and Titan etc. It’s actually a fine definition for geology purposes, being big enough for self-gravitation to make you round is when interesting stuff starts happening, but you’ll have to accept there being something like 30 planets, including the Moon.
Wellll…yes and no. The center of mass of the Earth-Moon system is within the Earth, so that’s planet-like, but the orbit of the Moon is always concave towards the sun, so that’s quite un-planet-like. Earth-Moon is unique, so we have to make a choice, and given Earth’s size — and the inconsequential fact that we live here — we call it a planet-moon system, not a binary dwarf-planet system.
It would probably be accurate to refer to Earth-Moon as a binary planet. Each of the two objects is in hydrostatic equilibrium, and they’ve cleared their joint orbit, so the system as a whole is unquestionably planetary. Given that Mercury has cleared its orbit and has a mass only five times that of the Moon, it seems plausible that Luna would have cleared its orbit if Terra weren’t here, which would make it a planet in its own right.
That would make Terra-Luna the most fascinating possible system: a binary planet.
The actual quote is, “where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.” So it isn’t even saying that ignorance is always bliss, just that sometimes it is.
The main selling point with conservatism is the desire not to have things change too much and that attribute tends to become more appealing to old folk, hence why people turn conservative as they get older.
I’m conservative too. Actually, I tend to feel that the Conservative party aren’t conservative enough. (Ironically, as the Conservative party are currently in power here in the UK).
Then again, I’m also in favour of taking powers away from our generally somewhat-inept governments and giving them back to the Crown, so…
I was conservative when I was younger too, but if think that was mostly because my parents and pretty much every other adult I knew were conservative. I wasn’t entirely aware that there was another way to be until late in high school.
But I live (both then and now) in an area where if your politics are anything but ultra-strict-religious-right-conservative, you generally keep it to yourself. So, as a kid and teen I wasn’t aware of more liberal stances because if they’re talked about at all, they’re talked about as a negative thing to the point of absurdity.
Then in high school I gradually became more and more liberal. I’m 32 now and I still find myself on the left side of almost every political issue that I read about. I’ve become the oddball black sheep in my extended family, and that’s if I’m not just an outright pariah. And I can’t say it bothers me much.
I’ve also read before that people are supposed to get more religious/faithful as they get older, but again, the opposite is true for me. I’ve gone from being a fairly devout believer as a child and teen, to having no religion at all now.
Being conservative and believing the Bible at its literal word are slightly different if sometimes overlapping systems of belief. I’d draw a diagram, but you know, text boxes and all.
Oh believe me, they’re different. I’m very conservative (to the point of eschewing the Conservatives in favour of the more conservative UKIP), but I’m also a strict Atheist.
Not all conservatives are fundies. I’m not one, just saying. And I still think that scientists had nothing better to do that day than decide that Pluto wasn’t really a planet…
Actually, I’m pretty sure it was more that a better definition of planet was needed because so many things that could fit into the category of planet had been found that it would have been ridiculously unwieldy as a category if not redefined. Pluto is smaller than some of the other dwarf planets anyway.
Yesss, YESSSSS!!! Let the knowledge gained by repeated experimentation through the manipulation of independent variables within a controlled environment FLOW through you!
He appeared to be the stereotypical Disney-prince-love-at-first-sight. Then, it turns out he was the villain of the movie. Him and the Duke of Weaseltown.
I think Joyce and Becky would be upset about Hans because he’s a jerk, not because they didn’t like the plot (although tbh I thought the twist was kinda cheap)
In this particular situation, the problem is Hans might be a bit too similar to Ryan for comfort. The whole seeming ideal and then turning out to be a jerk thing, you know.
Yeah, that’s what I assume she meant too. Given that the whole night was essentially to serve as a therapyish night for Joyce to recover from that evening, Becky seems to be a little worried that a character who’s main arc is pretending to be charming when actually they mean harm the whole time may have hit uncomfortably close to home.
I thought of that when they first decided to watch Frozen. I’d wondered then if the Hans betrayal scene would be triggering to Joyce. After all, Joyce had believed she was making a real connection with Ryan. She was already thinking about him as a future husband. Then he drugged her and would have raped her, bloody nose or not, if Sarah and the others hadn’t intervened. There is a definite parallel there.
I enjoyed Frozen. I’m not saying it was without flaws, or plot holes. It wasn’t perfect, but I generally enjoyed the premise, and I appreciated the way it subverted expectations.
Right? Frozen has its faults, but it DOES have some legitimately good ideas and characterization that defies traditional Disney fare. The music’s only mostly OK, though.
It’s not a well executed twist. It seems to serve mostly as a scapegoat so that Elsa doesn’t have to be the villain. And hans is just so suddenly cartoonishly evil that it pulls me right out of the movie. But that’s just my opinion.
I don’t wanna go too into this but I feel like the characterization in Frozen is honestly pretty weak compared to other disney movies. It’s a solid 6/10 for me but everyone else really loves it so meh.
Elsa was written as the villain initially, but the writers decided to make her a hero instead and had to somewhat ham handedly rewrite huge sections of the story and her songs to make it work. Its why Hans doesn’t have the traditional Disney villain song: he wasn’t the original villain. Also, Elsa probably killed thousands and sent the kingdom into ruin by obliterating the spring plantings with her spoiled tantrums.
It’s kind of like Brave in that regard. Brave feels like 2 movies spliced together to me and apparently, that’s exactly what it was. I think as an animation major I’m just very critical but stuff like that really sticks out to me.
She was at least trying to control that. The real villainy was shutting the gates and not letting the subjects trade to make a living. Also keeping yourself in a catle with servants while nobody is actually bothering to perform any useful role of government (although Anna somehow felt the need to leave a royal in charge when she went out for the day). Judging by the clothes it was right in the era of republican revolutions. The princesses where lucky not to end up with their heads in baskets
Well they were wanting to burn the witch but not so much overthrow the parasitic oppressors. In a medieval setting with the men in hose I’d buy it, but not in knee britches
Id be inclined to agree with you if she wasn’t belting out an empowering Broadway style song about letting the storm rage on while building an impressive intricate ice castle. Seems less panic attack and more self-entitled tantrum with no concept of other people.
You might be more inclined to agree if you paid attention and recognized that the panic attacks that caused the kingdom-wide winter happened in an entirely different scene and in different circumstances than the liberating, self-empowering coming-out ballad. Additionally, continuing to refer to panic attacks as “tantrums” will get you banned off these comments so damn fast, so I’d tread friggin’ carefully.
Actually, Hans DOES have a traditional Disney villain song. He just shares it with Anna who keeps missing all the clues.
Seriously, relisten to “Love is an Open Door” – Hans is NOT singing a romantic song there, he’s singing about his evil plan. And occasionally lying his ass off when Anna goes off script. “That’s what I was going to say?” Yeah, right.
From the “making of” special the rewrite came when they wrote “Let It Go” for Elsa. They had a song that they knew was going to be huge, and the only way they could use it was to make Elsa the protagonist of the story.
A lot of people think Hans was made the villain because the crew thought one was needed after they made Elsa an anti-villain. The hamfisted execution of the twist tends to give credence to the idea that Hans was given Big Bad status midstream.
I think we should give them a little more credit. Hans and Ana (?)’s song in the beginning is a kind of parody of the “love at first sight” convention, and it felt very satisfying when the dude who wanted to get married after one date turned out to be a controlling sociopath.
Yeah, I can understand why Becky might be worried about the parallels, but personally I loved that twist and that tack especially as Disney had been one of the prime sellers of toxic myths like love and marriage at first sight and if at first you don’t get the girl, relentlessly stalk her until she turns around. It’ll really help the next generation have better models for romantic relationships than little girls often get (cough cough Twilight).
Yes exactly. It was a twiston the level of Shopgirl, which made me feel very uncomfortable in a way I couldn’t even understand, and then was perfectly explained and justified as “yes, this should feel uncomfortable, because it is not healthy.”
Yea. There’s that moment where Hans has the perfect opportunity to let Elsa be killed and he doesn’t, and people have tried to fanwank it into making sense (https://myrenaissanceblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/answering-your-questions-why-let-elsa-live/). But… please, Hans would not have looked bad if, in a highly stressful and dangerous militant situation, he failed to react quick enough and to the right stimuli in order to save Elsa. The fact that fans feel the need to post long explanations defending Hans’ characterisation speaks for how weak it is. Frozen’s a fun movie, but let’s not pretend that Disney didn’t flub some things here and there for the sake of the plot needing to move in the direction it did.
I disliked it not because of the plot twist, but because it was poorly set up. A good plot twist should be foreshadowed, so that when you rewatch the movie you can see “oh! He really was the bad guy all along!”
In Frozen? The only foreshadowing you get is LITERALLY a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment. It’s poorly executed.
Yeah, it’s textbook manipulative and faux charming. It’s just we’re not used to media (and especially Disney media) actually agreeing that the “handsome outsider” who “wants to talk you away from all this” is a giant red flag rather than being romantic.
Snow White’s step-mother– beautiful. The Dwarves: none of them would get a first date in the real world.
Pinnochio — goodness was defined by his actions.
Dumbo — goofiest-looking guy was the hero.
Cinderella… the step-mother was initially beautiful, but got old– and she was mean before she got old, and even then, she looked, at worst, stately; the tradition of the ugly step-sisters wasn’t Disney based, though.
Alice in Wonderland was kind of a mixed bag– there were some beautiful things (the flowers, for example), that got pretty vile. And Alice was kind of plain looking.
Sleeping Beauty had three incredibly frumpy heroines, and there’s a reason they tabbed Angelina Jolie for the reimagining of Malificent.
Merlin was hardly good looking in The Sword and the Stone, and who knows what Madame Mimm actually looked like. And Arthur was too young to really be past goofy-looking.
The hero in The Black Cauldron looks pretty goofy.
The Little Mermaid’s kind of the first one where I really see a “Disney did it” on the “Beauty = good”, and even in that we can see a fairly strong message of “Good looks aren’t enough.” Eric fell in love with the chick who saved his life (proactive actions), and he knew her by her voice– Ariel’s good looks weren’t enough to make him fall in love with her.
Beauty and the Beast– duh.
Aladdin… I know some chicks who like Jaffar; idk. But he definitely was better looking than the Sultan.
Pocahontas — I just hate that animation style, and the historian in me despised the retelling.
Hunchback of Notre Dame– I mean, Quasimodo.
Hercules– awkward animation, but heroes (and Muses) were equally fair and foul.
Mulan fits the tradition cited, which kind of means it deviates from the norm.
And then a ton of their movies feature animals or anthropomorphic animals which are kind of hard to quantify. I know that Disney has that reputation… but it really doesn’t seem to pass a glance at things. Yes, a fair number of heroines and heroes have been good looking, but a strong number of them have ALSO been fuggos, deformed, or what-not, and in most cases, they have been more defined by their actions (selflessness, sacrifice, kindness, gentleness, industriousness).
If you’re not gonna count the ugly stepsisters against Disney, you don’t get to count the evil stepmothers in Disney’s favor. They’re all specified as BEING beautiful, especially Snow White’s mother, for whom it is the entire plot of that fairy tale.
I also think some of these choices confuse “ugly” with “not sexy”. The Sultan isn’t ugly. Neither are the Three Good Fairies in Sleeping Beauty. They’re all perfectly pleasant to look at, cute little old people with button noses.
Compare Jafar to Aladdin and tell me again that he’s supposed to be handsome. Compare Wart / Arthur to his stepbrother. Compare Alice to the Queen.
And seriously, you’re giving Disney credit for making The Hunchback of Notre Dame ugly??? You’re giving them credit for the Beast? What rules are you playing by here?
(The Beast was made ugly because he was an ugly person inside, and got to be handsome again after he’d proven he could overcome that, so I think it’s also a weird example. Also, the Disney animators struggled with Gaston, initially making him uglier instinctively and having to be corrected, so yeah.)
How are the heroes and Muses “equally fair and foul”? Do you mean because the one Muse is fat, and Phil isn’t handsome? (Though again, there’s nothing actually UGLY about him, he has the same basic face as the Sultan only with stubble.) I’m pretty sure if you count the gods, you’ll find the movie is incredibly lopsided in favor of pretty good, ugly bad. And the only “bad” character who is at all pretty, Meg, is being blackmailed into her badness and gets redeemed.
I also don’t really agree about The Little Mermaid. I mean, first of all, Ursula vs. any other character in the movie. Second of all, Eric is fixated for a while on the girl who saved his life, but he WAS actually falling for Ariel (based mostly on looks and “body language”), until Ursula showed up and put a spell on him. Physical attraction was definitely there and important.
Pinocchio isn’t ugly. Dumbo was adorable. Again, just because they’re not sexy doesn’t mean they’re ugly.
You can still absolutely tell good animals from bad ones. For example, Flounder vs. Flotsam and Jetsam. Scar vs. Mufasa.
There ARE some exceptions, but I think you’d be hard-pressed to say there ISN’T a general rule which Disney occasionally subverts, rather than no general rule.
Whether characters are “defined by their actions” doesn’t actually matter; what matters is the overall pattern where badness and ugliness are strongly correlated.
Also, Hans was very unusual in that his character design didn’t convey his evilness at all. Mostly the characters who are both pleasant to look at and evil have a certain hardness and meanness around their eyes; they might not be ugly, but they somehow still look cold or mean. (Gaston; the hunter in Tarzan; Cinderella’s stepmother…) Hans’s puppy dog eyes were very unusual.
I don’t remember that. All I heard were complaints about ‘hidden lesbian agendas’ and they were trying to ‘brainwash young girls that being gay was OK’ or something along those lines.
Um, they were sisters? It was specifically sisterly love, instead of romantic love? I mean, I know it’s not your argument, it is just so dumb that it causes physical discomfort.
It wasn’t that the two girls were in love with each other, but that Elsa’s powers which her parents forced her to hide was an allegory for closeted homosexuality, culminating in the coming-out-ballad “Let It Go.”
I’m like 97% sure that all the conservatives who recognised Let It Go for the coming out song that it is are themselves deeply closeted and in dire need of… letting it go.
Really not fond of the “haha, ironic punishment” theory of sexuality. Some homophobic people clearly think about sex between two people of their gender way too often, or else they’ll say weird revealing things like “if same sex marriage had been legal when I was younger, WHAT WOULD HAVE BECOME OF ME?” (I think there was a Miss America contestant who said it was important for young people not to have that option, like she hadn’t when she was younger. …very Freudian.)
But when you’re paranoid and full of persecution complex, you don’t actually need any other reason to see The Enemy around every corner.
I just found it a bit of a glaring issue that the little troll things told her parents explicitly that making her fear her power was a bad move, so they told her to fear her power. I mean, there’s not much of a story if they had listened, but still, they did exactly the opposite of what they were advised without any explanation as to why.
Yuuuuuuup. That whole plot had a bunch of parallels to that. The parents telling her she needed to hide who she was away and not let it show lest others reject her, the liberating very coming out style song in Let it Out, the very clear closet coming out metaphor of her hiding in her room for that whole initial section of the movie, and the initial reaction of the townspeople. There was a lot that resonated for queer viewers that led to a lot of speculation that Elsa was essentially the first lesbian Disney “princess”.
So naturally, it makes sense that bigots would also see those parallels and have the opposite of a pleased reaction to them. Especially someone like Toe Dad who probably already had reason to be “worried” about his daughter’s sexuality.
It’s funny you say that. I’ve never seen Frozen and I had not heard any of the soundtrack until months after the film was out of theatres and the host at karaoke was singing it and I asked my friend, “Is this a song about coming out?”
I have no idea how the rest of a flick pans out, but that “Let It Go” song definitely read as a coming out anthem that I would have cringed at during my coming out process.
Really? I thought there were only two possibilities. Either Hans was secretly evil, or he wasn’t bad but didn’t love Anna anyway and was just trying to get out of his family.
Like, the setup only really allowed for those two things – Hans couldn’t save Anna, that much was obvious.
I wasn’t sure how it was going to end, but I never once considered that a Disney Princess movie was going to have a pleasant, handsome, goofy love interest suddenly turn out to be evil. It is not a thing that they do, historically speaking.
They were quadrupedal herbivores with parrot-like beaks, rough bosses (raised bony areas) on their snouts and one pair behind their eyes, and a pair of horns on the end of their long bony frills. With body lengths of up to six meters (20 feet) and a weight of three tonnes, Achelousaurus were medium-sized ceratopsians.
Not sure why Dina wanted to talk about Achelousaurus, honestly. I mean, they’re a ceratopsian genus discovered by Jack Horner, and they look kinda neat, but they aren’t even really the coolest ceratopsian. Personally, I’m a Styracosaurus fan, myself. Although I got a soft spot for Protoceratops and Psittacosaurus. So, yeah, I’m not sure why Dina wanted to talk about Achelousaurus.
Right now, I’m just imagining Dina facing off against the DInobots lecturing them about their anatomical inaccuracies.
Grimlock: ME GRIMLOCK AM STRONG! ME GRIMLOCK AM KING!
Dina: You Grimlock are exhibiting an upright stance that isn’t supported by modern paleontological evidence, which suggests that said posture would cause the dislocation of various important joints. I find your factual incorrectness offensive.
Grimlock:…ME GRIMLOCK AM CONFUSED.
Dina: Clearly.
Amber: OHMYGODYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS.
*Grimlock stares at Dina*
“Me Grimlock no like you.”
*Grimlock tries swatting Dina with arms in Dino mode, Dina dodges easily*
“Scientists now believe Tyrannosaurus Rex’s fore limbs were mainly used to assist getting up from laying down, having found signs of strength in them despite their size. However they would be almost useless in hunting or battling due to their small size…”
*Grimlock tries using his flame-breath attack, but Dina is picked up by another Autobot who quickly takes her away, though they cannot stop her commenting as they go.*
“There is no evidence that Tyrannosaurus Rex could breath fire, or that any Dinosaur could launch mouth-based projectiles, including Dilophosaurus………..”
“Me Grimlock no like her. Me grimlock no do dino wrong, me Grimlock KING…”
Something I like about Dina: she doesn’t only talk up the dinosaurs that looked coolest, were the biggest, most ferocious, etc. She loves them all. Achelosaurus is just as worthwhile to bring up as any other kind.
I’d rather talk about Balaur Bondoc. Despite the fact that it was originally classified as a velociraptor relative, more recent studies have indicated that its second toe-claw is probably just evidence of it being an early bird. Seriously, it’s a bird that looks like a heavily-built velociraptor with two toe claws, what’s not to like? Or Deinocheirus. Deinocheirus is always fun.
There is a fine difference between referencing the event and why it makes Joyce uncomfortable and “NUH-UH THAT GUY SLIPPED YOU A ROOFIE IT’S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!”
This is not the time and place to be debating that. It never will be.
The argument is logical, but the context of the scene says a lot more.
Joyce has experienced trauma. People who experience trauma associate certain smells, tastes, and sights with their traumatic events. It really doesn’t matter if the alcohol was the reason or not, recreating the scene of the trauma isn’t usually a good thing for people suffering from it.
Billie is addicted to alcohol. She shouldn’t have brought it to the party, and on some level, she probably knows it. What she’s doing is more justifying her addiction than making any argument to help Joyce understand or feel better about what happened.
More like seeing that Joyce is not handling a traumatic experience at all well and deciding a party is best course of action as opposed to saying to her that she should talk someone
Sure its not easy to bring up the subject but ignoring the elephant in the room isn’t helping either
The whole point of the party was to give Joyce the same form of socialization a party offers, but doing it on her terms with people she trusts. Joyce should be able to socialize and have fun without that lingering fear. That’s what Becky was trying to do setting this up.
“Talking to a therapist” is genuinely, incredibly, super difficult. You’re pouring your feelings and fears out to a complete stranger. People need to stop acting like it’s a magical Cure-All for emotional trauma. What Becky tried to do for Joyce is genuinely one of the best things she could do.
Mm. I feel a bit uncomfortable about this particular set of advice for Joyce, specifically because while therapy may be an ideal aide that is severely lacking for Joyce, I bristle a little at the notion that those who suffer a form of trauma should only receive therapy and nothing else.
Specifically because it is a bit of advice often given to people suffering traumatic events and it often (at least in my experience) has more to do with the discomfort of the person hearing about it to think about it than anything that is genuinely thinking of the traumatized individual.
Additionally, reducing trauma to an issue you talk about with a therapist and nothing else about has encouraged a system of silencing in my experiences where people feel bad about sharing their experiences and therefore become more likely to internalize them and self-blame because “they’re just bringing everyone down with this shit anyways”. This also leads socially to situations where people assume they know fewer traumatized people than they actually do.
And it also ignores that this party is a form of therapy. Not all therapeutic acts need occur in a controlled environment with a licensed therapist and often times therapists will directly encourage actions like this.
I mean, trying to regain an activity robbed from you by trauma by controlling the environment and regaining a sense of control in one’s life again can be a crucial aspect of therapy, especially for traumas born out of the theft of that control and autonomy such as rape.
Besides, having support of friends is as critical as mental health services for getting through things like this (a therapist can only see you once in a while and only if you’re feeling well enough to go, whereas a friend or loved one can be there much more frequently and can provide support when you’re triggered or too fucked up to leave the house).
And let’s not forget that a therapist might not be a positive experience. Psychologists hired by universities to serve the student population tend to be awful and very victim blamey and I’ve known quite a number of people put off from therapists even though they could greatly benefit from them because of terrible encounters with university psychologists.
University therapists are oftentimes the absolute fucking worst. I went to the counseling office saying I was thinking of killing myself and I was told I could make an appointment. That night, I tried to do it. And that was just depression. I’ve heard horrible stories about rape victims being blamed or told that maybe they should ‘forgive’ their attacker and not press charges.
Ok so if the party is designed to make Joyce feel safe and help her to socialize shouldn’t it have been stated its a dry party and why its a dry party or are the guests supposed to just “know”
People on here are forgetting Billies (probably) an alcoholic so her decision making around alcohol isn’t so crash hot
Well for one thing, all things the party includes, including the ones the things chosen by Joyce, are triggers for her conned betrayed , Drugging and capture by Ryan.
The small amount of consensual drinking provided by Billie isnt one of them, and thats why Billie objects.
Soda Drinking/soda drinking in party , Christian-only music/talking with a “preachers son” . Nice handsome man is the villain/Ditto in Frozen.
Joyce should already be triggered. AN Angry sounding Ruth busting in and threatening people with bodily harm for no reason isnt the sort of thing that will give most people peaceful dreams on top of this.
Maybe that might make Joyce feel safe; but if someone triggered Joyce here, I think it was Ruth , not Billie.
on the otherhand if Joyce drinks that might be more triggering
( assuming she never drank before ). And a safe-space party like this one is probably the perfect place for Joyce to learn to drink comfortably .
I’ve seen you post multiple times about the fact that it wasn’t explicitly stated that Joyce’s party was a “dry” party and why should they have assumed so? Despite the trauma and just knowing Joyce as a person and understanding what she may have wished (no alcohol seems pretty logical), the fact that all of them were hiding the alcohol and fact that they were drinking to begin with until one of them got caught kind of implies that everyone knew, on some level, that they shouldn’t have been drinking. If they were drinking it openly then you could claim that they just didn’t know, but they were obviously hiding it from Joyce which means that they knew better and they just didn’t care.
Joyce wasn’t reacting to Billie at all.
Her only negative reaction was to being reminded of the original situation.
The people having a go at Billie both are overly protective. They are manifesting their own guilt and projecting it onto Billie.
Well yeah they are overprotective. One of them is “Big Sis” Sarah and the other is Joyce’s long time best friend who feels they owe the world to her and is also still carrying a major torch for her.
And they both live with her and have seen at least one instance of triggers the others haven’t.
So yeah, major recipe for a crew that will bleed and die for you out of loyalty and protectiveness.
These are excuses for bad behavior, but the behavior remains bad regardless. Billie is defending herself from overprotective friends who are inadvertently making things worse with their accusations.
Literally all Joyce did was express her dissatisfaction with her friends drinking. Billie is the one who made it a big deal, Sarah and Becky responded why Joyce would have a problem with it, and then Billie went into Super Alcoholic Asshole mode.
And though the alcohol was not directly involved in causing Joyce’s trauma, it WAS something a lot of people at the party were having that would have limited:
a) Decision-making, remember how none of the people kept Ryan restrained or in sight?
b) Coordination, if it wasn’t for Sarah, it would have been up to drunk people to try to fight Ryan off, and their odds wouldn’t have been great with their lack of balance, coordination and quite also possibly, poor focus.
c) Searching ability and memory, no one actually found Ryan, and I bet it is because more than half of them forgot who he was and what he looked like at the time because recalling things is harder when you are drunk.
The alcohol didn’t directly bring her harm, but it did greatly reduce the safety of the environment she was in and it is easy for someone with bad intentions to take advantage of that, especially if other people were getting as blitzed as Billie.
And imagine if Ruth had actually come to this party with the intention of beating up Joyce – you can instantly tell that it is easier for her to do so if half the people can be pushed over because they’re tipsy than if everyone is sober.
Well, not just that, too; the other party was the first one Joyce ever went to with drinking. She’d been taught all her life (I imagine) that alcohol was bad and girls who went to parties where everyone was drinking would get raped. Of course that’s not necessarily true; but here she is, at a party where kids are drinking, aaaaand… someone tries to rape her.
So, nothing like having Mum and Dad saying, “Don’t do this perfectly normal thing, or this terrible thing will happen!” and then actually having it (kind of) happen as predicted. So now that idea that alcohol at parties = BAD!! has been nicely reinforced.
So, she tries to have a nice, fun party without alcohol, because Jesus Christ, does alcohol at parties EVER = bad. Aaaand… Billie brings alcohol anyways.
Hopefully at least Joyce will see that it is possible to have a couple of drinks without people trying to rape each other, but it would have been much better to just keep it a dry party.
I think it’s a bit of both. In that, yes, having a party filled with drunks (the first party with [same-aged] drunks that Joyce had ever be in) could reasonably have a nasty side of association and be triggered by it. Which, is also why it is reasonable for Becky in her very protective mood this evening to be worried about it.
And yeah, Billie’s first response is pure defensiveness that has more to do with justifying the impact of her alcoholism on others than anything, which is why she interprets “certain things” being a direct attack on her primary partner (alcohol) rather than on any of the other negative things that happened at the party (Sarah’s fight, people constantly leaving or threatening to leave, Ruth scaring the bejeezus out of everyone).
But I’m glad that even if it was born out of self-interest, Billie said what she did about alcohol as it’s probably helpful that Joyce get reinforcement that the assault wasn’t about the place it took place in or anything to do with controllable actions by her as I sadly know from direct experience that it can be really easy to find all sorts of ways to blame oneself or the situation one was in for things like that.
So, accidental good advice about triggers from someone who definitely wasn’t aware of it (Billie is a loyal lover and will defend her romantic partners to the death when she infers they are being attacked).
Billie doesn’t understand PTSD or how triggers work or actually care overmuch about Joyce’s emotional well being Billie just wants to justify her indulging of her alcoholism in a situation where it was clearly a bad idea.
“Clearly”? Maybe it was a bad idea (it doesn’t seem to have actually triggered anything, though, until Sarah and Becky started talking), but I’m struggling to think of how that was supposed to be obvious to Billie.
Maybe but at the moment the biggest thing people remember most about Frozen is the Let It Go song and the wincest subtext rather than Hans turning out to be the villain.
I would’ve put in something about showing any sort of affection (THEY’RE SISTERS) but I know perfectly well that “subtext” gets broken out over characters who hate each other, too.
Also “love” breaking the spell, in which context “love” is almost always the romantic kind. Add in Elsa and Anna staying at the castle while reindeer dude leaves and their general behavior towards each other….
It’s called a functional sibling relationship. If you and your siblings don’t bear any affection for each other something probably went wrong somewhere along the line.
Um so are we gonna just ignore that Dina now knows what happened to Joyce? (I mean she doesn’t have all the details sure but I mean I would imagine Joyce doesn’t really want the knowledge to spread..
Oh, 4.5 billion years ago, the Earth day was 6.1 hours long. It’s been slowing down because the moon tugs on Earth’s rotation as the former gets farther away in its escape orbit! I learned that because of the leap second yesterday.
I’d hardly call it an attack it’s not as if Becky was getting in her face shouting “what’s your problem”
Besides there was also a pissed off Sara and a forceful entry by Ruth that could be called “certain events” Becky was just making sure the party had served its purpose
She’s making a rational point. PTSD isn’t rational. That party was very likely Joyce’s first party involving alcohol, so being at a gathering involving alcohol and being roofied are bound to be very closely linked in her mind.
You see now I know you just put the word “bongo” in the sentence instead of using the filter word, because the filter word does not make sense in that context.
hahahahhahaha ‘sorry about Hans’. YAAAAS Man I didn’t even otice how multi-appropriate that movie was to these guys. so Becky’s Else, who was dramatically outed, fled, and is now having a wonderful time (before she’s forcibly taken back ah shit foreshadowing)
and Joyce has been waiting her entire like to get out, and incidentally, fall in love, and it hasn’t super worked for her. Who’s kristoff?
Who’s Olaf? (I kinda want olaf to be Dina, for no real reason)
I would have suggested Ethan as Kristoff, but since Anna and Kris seem to end up together, that’s probably not all that accurate… Maybe Kris would be like a mash-up of Ethan and Dorothy since both are helping Joyce in her discovery of the world and Joyce totally likes Dorothy…?
Oh come on, Dorothy is CLEARLY Kristoff. Kind-hearted, smart, independent, sees trough other people’s bullshit and indoctrination, loves Anna/Joyce. That’s the most obvious parallel to me out of everyone!
I love that your avatar is 5-o shadow Joe. Because just like older Joe, I too have trouble remembering when one shot could lead to me being visibly drunk. Oh who am I kidding, it always took at least two.
Billie appears to be pouring more alcohol into her cup in the second panel. Apparently, that flask is *still* not empty, even after she got herself, and half the part guests drunk. Does her flask magically refill itself? I want an origin story for Billie’s magic flask.
I find Becky’s comment in the last panel interesting as it suggests that Dina might very well converted Becky towards evolution with the combination of logic and smooching.
I don’t even think the kissing has that much to do with it. The simple fact that Dina takes time to explain this to Becky, and her obvious passion in the subject, is enough to make Becky interested.
The really sad thing is that this is the first time Becky has the opportunity to learn these things without someone lying to her
Yeah, it’s a combination of right words, right place. Becky was open and willing to listen, was in a point of her life to not feel much loyalty to the narrative she was fed growing up, and in a point of her life filled with curiosity and exploration.
Young-Earth Creationists… I knew one growing up. AY CARUMBA! Mention “dating dinosaur bones” and the knee-jerk reaction is “carbon-dating is a crock!” (actual quote). Never mind the fact that you can’t carbon-date rock, which is what dinosaur bones really are by now, since over the last few million years the bone was dissolved and replaced by a calcium silicate (or something like that).
Oh, and evolution? Laboratory-proven using a thousand generations of fruit flies. (Seriously. There was a Popular Science article commemorating the hundredth(?) anniversary of Darwin’s The Origin of the Species a few years back that detailed it.) Mention that, and they go nuts trying to explain that “evolution is still just a theory”. Well, yeah, but one that’s been lab-tested; if it hasn’t, it’s still a hypothesis. The subtleties are lost on them. (Plus, they equate “theory of evolution” and “big bang” as the same, because both are taught in schools and held as “the universe as we understand it”.)
Oh, and if the universe is only 6000 years old, as they claim, how can we see galaxies that are more than three million lightyears away (like the Triangulum and Andromeda galaxies)?
Sorry for the rant. These guys and their anti-science attitudes just bug me.
Of young-earth creationist rhetoric I know only what I saw in last year’s Ken Ham vs Bill Nye debate. It was quite hilarious until I remembered their insane group of crazy irrational lunatics has non-negligible influence on US state legislation, like what teachers get to teach in science class.
I know that one, everything was created at the same time, including the light travelling from those distant galaxies. Which makes their deity the biggest liar in the universe. People who can’t use logic shouldn’t try to make sense of the universe by arguing from the bad premise the universe is only 6000 years old.
That’s the whole thing with the old religions though. They were created to make sense of the world way back when science couldn’t, and tradition carried them into a future where they are irrelevant. It’s sad, really.
The great thing about that argument is that it applies whenever you want. The universe and everything in it was created last Thursday, complete with everyone’s memories of things that happened before then.
Completely unfalsifiable.
I’m glad I’ve never met a Creationist. I’d probably deck them in the face if they tried telling me the Earth is only 6000 years old. Yeah I know it’d be wrong of me but at that point, whatever.
My mother, grandmother, great-uncle and his wife all believe in YEC, you should see how they carry on whenever they watch a science show and the words mentions “millions of years ago” or “evolution”.
I’m with the alt text – let’s hear more about achelousaurus.
Woa, Becky, I know Dina is super cute and all but let’s not get carried away with this whole scientific dating thing. Next you will start to believe in evolution or something.
Joyce asserting herself is a good thing. Billie being defensive is an understandable thing. Sarah standing up for Joyce despite all the trouble her party caused is a beautiful thing.
To Billie’s point, all Joyce is doing is just villainizing something tertiary to the thing that caused her grief. It’s basically using her grief to justify her own previous prejudices and people are inclined to support this because she’s been victimized. I think the point of not having alcohol is to create a safe space for Joyce because Joyce doesn’t like alcohol. But if you’re gonna tie those two events is to tie it to “Settlers of Catan”. They’re relevant to the event but not at all related to what caused it.
Is Joyce even doing that, though? -Joyce- hasn’t drawn any parallels between Ryan and her party, she was just mad that a bunch of people snuck alcohol into her party without her permission. The fact that she wasn’t huffy about it after everything worked out seems like she was pretty chill once she knew it wasn’t getting anybody in trouble.
PTSD doesn’t care about direct rational correlation. All it needs is a significant enough reminder of the traumatic event to bring the whole thing screaming back. It could be being surrounded by drunk people, it could be Settlers of Catan, it could be the taste of Sierra Mist it doesn’t matter. It just has to be a sensory input relevant to the incident.
Well… exactly. Is Billie supposed to avoid ever having booze, sierra mist, or a game of Settlers of Catan around Joyce, just in case it might be the irrational thing to trigger her PTSD? I don’t think there’s any indication that Joyce expects that, to her credit, but I know from experience that expecting that kind of “sensitivity” from people is insanity.
Being respectful is listening without judgement or undue questions when Joyce asks you not to bring alcohol to her party (which she didn’t do). It is not reading her mind, knowing in advance something will trigger her, and avoiding it.
And it’s the same with Amber too. Amber might have serious and good reasons to be wary of alcohol. Social anxiety is real. But it doesn’t give you a free pass to shit on people for not anticipating it will bother you when you haven’t even verbalized how and why it’s a problem.
Ya that’s the thing I bet she wasn’t even listening to any of Dinas intellectual view points, if anything she was just thinking ” boobs, boobs, boobs, Dinosaurs, boobs” the entire time.
I’m sure Dina wouldn’t like to be an attendant of any party where dino talk isn’t welcome. It’s cute that she’s hanging around though. I predict a walk home and goodnight kiss in her future.
Also, that’s like the first time Joyce has even gotten short with Billie!
I understand Billie’s defensiveness here, but I wonder how much of her anger is linked to defending alcohol — and her alcoholism — at the expense of her friends.
Alcohol itself might or might not be a trigger, but my main concern with this whole thing was that the other party was probably Joyce’s first party where people were drinking alcohol, and so that is probably closely linked to the incident in her mind. Being surrounded with drunken people could feel unsettling, even if it didn’t have a direct incidence on what happened to her.
Not to mention getting raped is probably exactly what her parents told her would happen to nice girls who went to drinking parties. So the roofie incident probably tied alcohol to rape even more closely in her mind.
Southern Isles, its an allusion to magical Denmark, Arrendale is Norway, and Weaslton is Sweden. Krisstoff is actually supposed to be a Suomi, aboriginal Finnish.
Aboriginal Scandinavian, really. The Sami people had a culture that spanned northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia long before pesky cartographers from the south decided that they lived in different countries. That still plays havoc with their ability to make full use of their land.
“Fun” fact, Sweden has still not signed the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples because of fear of loosing control of the natural resources of northern Sweden.
A lovely subversion of ‘Prince Charming’. Disney’s scriptwriters deserve an award just for building him up as a totally cliché hero then totally turning it on its head in the last reel.
There is far too much potential for ‘Hans’ characters in DoA and Joyce has already been assaulted by one.
Huh. Insensitive as hell Billie, but you do have a point there. Of course we know the reason she defends alcohol, but still, valid point. If only you could have made it in a less angry fashion.
Billy get a bit of sensitivity. While it was a ‘roofie in her sierra mist’, it’s doubtful the would be rapist would have tried it without the cover of a booze party in the background.
Joyce really had a scary experience and doesn’t like talking or thinking about it. But then Joyce doesn’t like to talk about a lot of things, like the earth’s real age etc.
A conservative is just a liberal that’s been mugged.
Love Dina.
I ‘unno, I’ve known at least one conservative who simply suffered from privilege blindness. A few years later, once he married, had a kid, and found himself with no disposable income, he became quite an ardent liberal. Funny how that works.
Here’s a question that we can’t know the answer to: would Billie still have brought booze even if she’d been specifically asked not to.
I kind of think the answer is yes, because alcoholism. Maybe she would’ve been more reluctant to spread it around, though.
Also, seriously, PTSD is not rational and does not play by any particular rules. (It can also and does present as a host of other mental illnesses, helping to explain the parts of Amber’s issues that aren’t directly related to having been abused as a child.) It doesn’t matter that Sierra Mist or roofies make more sense as triggers.
Nor is Joyce necessarily triggered by alcohol. But of course it is perfectly rational for Becky and Sarah to want to avoid unnecessary reminders of that event on this particular night, from alcohol to Settlers of Canaan. (Hence Joyce’s choosing to play other party games.) None of these characters is a psychologist; they’re just trying their best.
(And no, forcing Joyce to talk about it, or get a therapist, or report the attack… is not necessarily the best thing. While every person is different, one of the most important things you can do for any survivor of rape or attempted rape is to let them know that their wishes are important and will be respected. Don’t force them to do anything with respect to their sexual assault; they’ve had enough of that for a lifetime.)
Sexual assault and rape are crimes where autonomy and control over one’s self is directly taken. As such, the best therapy is often things that can re-establish a sense of control over one’s fate and reward autonomy.
So forcing someone into therapy can do way more harm than good, because it can feel like a robbing of autonomy again and thus become associated with the badness.
Moments like this that work to rebuild her sense of autonomy are key for her being able to reach the point where she is able and willing to self-advocated and seek aide for her recovery.
You know what? I’m actually going to revise my theory here.
I wrote up a big reply but as I wrote I thought more, and changed my mind.
Billie did not treat Joyce’s party like a place where it was okay to drink. We know because we have seen her at other parties: she arrives pre-drunk, chugs beer openly, and gets super drunk as fast as possible.
Contrast with her behavior here: she brought a flask, poured it into a party cup, and then kept it largely hidden. She never drank enough to get noticeably drunk. Normal behavior for anyone else, but abnormal from Billie.
She didn’t think drinking was okay; she suspected it was not, and did it anyway.
And Billie had good reason for her expectations: Sarah.
I legitimately don’t think Billie ever thought Joyce would be upset; Joyce willingly went to a frat party, and though she had a horrific experience Billie assumed the beer wouldn’t set her off.
But she knows Sarah got her roommate kicked out for smoking pot. (NOTE: not how I would characterize it!! But it seems to be how Billir sees the incident, from her reaction after Sarah explained.) Billie knows Sarah doesn’t have any reason to cover for her, and might well rat her out for violating both campus policy and the law in Sarah’s room, even if what she’s doing is “harmless”.
I doubt Billie thought all this out; people rarely do. But I think she knew booze wouldn’t be welcome. On some level they all did, or they would have been drinking openly.
For Billie’s part, maybe she even meant it as a quiet snub to Sarah, albeit one she didn’t want to be lectured for. Or maybe she brought alcohol compulsively, because she is literally an addict, even though it might get her in trouble, because she thought she could handle it.
Being confronted by the possibility that she hurt Joyce, though, she’s angry and defensive to cover for her discomfort. Because Billie cares about people more than she wants to admit.
6,000 years is an unfeasibly young age for the earth even IF you’re a creationist, recorded human history, the stuff we’ve WRITTEN DOWN and can find calendar dates for, goes back 10,000 years. You CAN’T say the earth is younger than that.
Not to mention that the calculation that gave them the 6,000-years-old thing was done around a thousand years ago. So even by their own weird logic they ought to be up to seven thousand years old now.
Except that I suspect will never change for them, because now it’s old enough to have become canon and therefore immutable, so in another three thousand years they will still be claiming the Earth is only six thousand years old.
–No idea why those calendar dates aren’t addressed by them. I suspect it’s all dealt with under their standard manoeuvre of “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”
Yes, the various calculations of the Earth’s age using Biblical geneologies were done long ago, but those calculations didn’t say “six thousand years ago” but instead gave a specific year, usually around 4000 BC. So when folks say the earth is 6000 years old, they’re just counting back from that number.
It would be quite hilarious if that age was indeed static. Imagine. The year 7256. Two christians, discussing. “So uuuh um how can the Earth be 6000 years old when Jesus was born 7256 years ago?” “God works in mysterious ways.”
“recorded human history, the stuff we’ve WRITTEN DOWN and can find calendar dates for, goes back 10,000 years”
The oldest proto-cuneiform is from about 3400 BC. The oldest coherent texts are from about 2600 BC. So no, more like 4600 years, with proto-writing back to 5400 years. That the Jewish calendar isn’t much bigger than that number is an interesting coincidence.
OTOH “As of 2013, fully anchored chronologies in the northern hemisphere extend back 13,900 years.” That’s based on overlapping tree ring counts.
Billie is technically correct. However, she handled that situation poorly. She should have thought before speaking, rather than following her knee-jerk impulse to go on the defensive in a manner that clearly served the sole purpose of justifying her actions to herself.
Hoo boy, that was a run-on sentence. In any case, Billie was tactless there. Joyce clearly doesn’t want to be reminded of that night. She has made it clear on many occasions that she just wants to forget, to pretend it never happened. I can understand the impulse to escape and avoid. I haven’t experienced exactly what Joyce did, thankfully. However, I can relate to feeling a strong urge to escape and avoid instead of dealing with problems. It takes a Herculean effort on my part to rise above that even a little bit. I’m not saying that’s the healthiest response to that situation, but I do to an extent get where Joyce is coming from.
The fact is, if Joyce hopes to move on with her life, to be able to go outside alone, and have healthy, functional relationships, she will need to deal with what happened. Still, I appreciate that process will be far from easy. Billie bringing up what happened in such a blunt and tactless manner, is pretty much the opposite of helpful.
On a slightly different topic, I see Joyce is still staunchly opposed to the theory of evolution. She’s made good headway in regards to homosexuality, but clearly she has a ways to go on other matters. Considering the fact that Willis has described Joyce as autobiographical, I suspect that her we’ll see her asking a lot more questions, and rethinking a lot more long-held beliefs as the comic goes on.
I’m not at all surprised Joyce hasn’t budged on evolution (yet). Remember, the only way she managed to her initial beliefs with accepting her best friend as gay was to look into the Bible passages that are thought to forbid homosexuality and to realise that with proper translations taking historical context into account, the Bible doesn’t actually even say that.
Or to put it another way, Billie was criticised, she responded by saying that if Joyce was made uncomfortable by this (and I acknowledge that Sarah and Becky are just assuming she was at this point) those feelings were invalid.
Funny thing is, Pastor John Hagee, one of TV’s most prominent pastors and someone my grandma and I have been watching for is, actually critized the man representing christians (I think his name was Ken Ham) in that debate against Bill Nye.
Even Pastor John Hagee agrees it is idiotic to believe the world is any younger than 7million years old. Can’t find the article about it now, saddly. He was mad at Ken Ham for making Christians look like Ignorant Fools.
The reactions to the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate really allowed us to see who’s agnostic/atheist, who keeps a pretty reasonable faith, and who’s just plain crazy fundie.
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sucks to be conservative, huh
also Brontosaurus came back, but Pluto’s still voted off the planet island
Triceratops is still kinda in limbo, though. Kinda.
I don’t think all that many paleontologists really subscribe to the juvenile theory.
Again, kinda. The theory still exists, but it’s not really very popular anymore. As you said, most paleontologists don’t support it. But, still, the theory exists, so…kinda.
Actually, even with that, Triceratops wouldn’t be in limbo. It’s the senior classification, so Torosaurus would be in limbo, without pressing cause otherwise. It’s just that no-one knew what a Torosaurus was, so spinning that around and muddling the issue made more people read the story.
Even if Triceratops is a younger Torosaurus, Triceratops would keep its name because it got described first. Trust me, Triceratops is going nowhere.
Well of course not, they are all dead.
Zing!
But yeah, if the “juvinile torosaurus” theory turns out to be right, that means torosaurus gets booted from the taxonomy and triceratops stays.
And you beat me to it. By nearly a year.
Well, if your little siblings are bigger than you, and they don’t get to be planets, it has a habit of getting you kicked out of the planetary bachelor- at least, for that season.
Oh come on, like the baby of the family doesn’t always get spoiled.
But we’re flying by Pluto in like two weeks! And it’s going to be awesome!
Meh, Ceres is cooler, first Dwarf Planet to be observed by a man-made satellite, closer to Earth than Pluto, isn’t so insecure about it’s dwarf-planethood that it needs sixty moons to keep it company.
Step up your game, “A Scientist”, if that even IS your real name.
Meh. Ceres didn’t have the spheres to leave the warmth of the sun and chance the outer darkness, clinging desperately to an orbit in which Sol rises and falls, casting heat on its surface. Pluto has been willing to plow through the dark and cold in a horrid realm where the is no dawn.
Ceres is so insecure that it insisted that all its satellites be small and subservient, dwarfed by the body which owns them. Pluto willingly shares its orbit with a satellite almost as big as it is itself, revolving eternally around a point well outside itself.
Pluto rocks the whole ninth rock around the sun sweepestakes.
It’s funny how you’re arguing about whether Persephone’s mom or husband is cooler.
(Did she have a different name in Roman mythology? I dunno. It’s all stolen from Greek anyway.)
*tenth rock
In the other hand, the near-resonant orbits Pluto shares with its moons, the effect on those moons’ s shapes and rotations, and Pluto’s own intricate orbital resonance with Neptune are fascinating. Ceres does have that giant mountain and those cool bright spots to its credit, though.
Yeah, once we discover that Charon is really a mass relay, we can get our asses to Mars, excavate the Prothean ruins, start building the space navy, and hopefully make more progress on the Crucible before the Reapers arrive.
…what?
Screw you. Pluto gave her life so that the past and future could be saved. She’s more of a planet than all the Senshi combined.
As we all know ,the Senshi are all named after planets, like the moon.
Did they ever get a sailor Earth, anyway ?
Yes. His name is Tuxedo Kamen
(This is not a joke)
He’s not a sailor. He has the sailor crystal of earth, but he can’t use it, because only girls can be sailor senshi.
**points at his Tuxedo, Mask, and Rose** Pretty sure he IS using it. Just not to his full potential. Which is too bad – we could use more gender-shifting senshi.
You’re thinking of the Sailor Starlights. Also, they were always chicks and in senshi mode on their home planet. So technically the “transformation” was into human males when they arrived on Earth, the canon explanation being that they were looking for their princess who had a very specific scent and males have a better sense of smell than females so they somehow magically became human males. *shrugs*
But… females have a better sense of smell than males.
(There is probably something wrong with me when that’s the part that unsuspends my disbelief, lol)
In the manga, they just dressed and passed themselves off as men for… reasons I’m not clear on. The whole transformation bit was for the anime, because apparently outright female crossdressing was considered inappropriate.
There are a lot of anime/manga changes, but SuperS and Stars are probably the worst-hit. Chaos was a lot more important in the manga, Galaxia had a totally different origin, and the Sailor Animamates were ordinary soldiers who were given artificial sailor powers for betraying their Senshi/Guardians to Galaxia and her minions, which was the reason for the metallic theme naming and their lack of being named after celestial bodies of any sort.
…what
And Ceres.
And “Star Fighter”.
Ceres, Juno, Pallas, and Vesta. All the large asteroids that were once classified as planets.
Well, except for the ones that weren’t. One was named for the galaxy.
Planet Island is a fantasy novel I would definitely read.
Actually Pluto is a planet again.
No, it’s still a dwarf-planet, which is separate from the category of planets.
Actually, NASA reclassified it as a planet. Nobody else agrees.
Are we sure? There are some people at NASA who disagreed with it, but their website still calls Pluto a dwarf planet.
No — the IAS has the final say. Individuals can (and do) argue about whether the IAS was right or wrong, but, right now, Pluto is a dwarf planet.
(FWIW, the IAS was right. Pluto hasn’t cleared its orbit of Charon, much less of other significant objects. It’s not a planet, but a dwarf planet.)
I found an article about planetary scientists sniffing that Pluto was always a planet to them, just like any round body.
Which would make the Moon a planet. And Io and Titan etc. It’s actually a fine definition for geology purposes, being big enough for self-gravitation to make you round is when interesting stuff starts happening, but you’ll have to accept there being something like 30 planets, including the Moon.
Hm, but the moon doesn’t directly orbit around the sun.
(tho that logic is a bit of a pain when it comes to double planets like the pluyton-charon system)
Wellll…yes and no. The center of mass of the Earth-Moon system is within the Earth, so that’s planet-like, but the orbit of the Moon is always concave towards the sun, so that’s quite un-planet-like. Earth-Moon is unique, so we have to make a choice, and given Earth’s size — and the inconsequential fact that we live here — we call it a planet-moon system, not a binary dwarf-planet system.
It would probably be accurate to refer to Earth-Moon as a binary planet. Each of the two objects is in hydrostatic equilibrium, and they’ve cleared their joint orbit, so the system as a whole is unquestionably planetary. Given that Mercury has cleared its orbit and has a mass only five times that of the Moon, it seems plausible that Luna would have cleared its orbit if Terra weren’t here, which would make it a planet in its own right.
That would make Terra-Luna the most fascinating possible system: a binary planet.
By rule of thumb, I’d say if the center of the system rotation is within one of the 2 bodies, the other is the moon.
I *think* that for Pluton/Charon, the center is outside Pluton.
So ignorance isn’t bliss?
Ignorance is only bliss if you are ignorant about your ignorance.
I was going for sarcasm, but I do agree with the saying on occasion whenever politics are involved.
The actual quote is, “where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.” So it isn’t even saying that ignorance is always bliss, just that sometimes it is.
Not all conservatives are crazy. They’re just not very loud. Or elected.
The main selling point with conservatism is the desire not to have things change too much and that attribute tends to become more appealing to old folk, hence why people turn conservative as they get older.
I was a conservative when I was younger. Now I’m a progressive Monarchist. So… something went terribly wrong.
I’m conservative too. Actually, I tend to feel that the Conservative party aren’t conservative enough. (Ironically, as the Conservative party are currently in power here in the UK).
Then again, I’m also in favour of taking powers away from our generally somewhat-inept governments and giving them back to the Crown, so…
According to Conservapedia, Fox News is too liberal for true conservatives.
Truly a frightening reality.
I guess that makes “true conservatism” an Adam Savage quote? “I reject your reality, and substitute one of my own.”
you don’t know US conservatives
I was conservative when I was younger too, but if think that was mostly because my parents and pretty much every other adult I knew were conservative. I wasn’t entirely aware that there was another way to be until late in high school.
But I live (both then and now) in an area where if your politics are anything but ultra-strict-religious-right-conservative, you generally keep it to yourself. So, as a kid and teen I wasn’t aware of more liberal stances because if they’re talked about at all, they’re talked about as a negative thing to the point of absurdity.
Then in high school I gradually became more and more liberal. I’m 32 now and I still find myself on the left side of almost every political issue that I read about. I’ve become the oddball black sheep in my extended family, and that’s if I’m not just an outright pariah. And I can’t say it bothers me much.
I’ve also read before that people are supposed to get more religious/faithful as they get older, but again, the opposite is true for me. I’ve gone from being a fairly devout believer as a child and teen, to having no religion at all now.
I wonder about that. Do people tend to get more religious with age, or are people from older generations more religious?
Both, actually.
Being conservative and believing the Bible at its literal word are slightly different if sometimes overlapping systems of belief. I’d draw a diagram, but you know, text boxes and all.
Oh believe me, they’re different. I’m very conservative (to the point of eschewing the Conservatives in favour of the more conservative UKIP), but I’m also a strict Atheist.
( Conservatives ( both ) Literal belief in the Bible )
You’re welcome.
No, no sucks for conservatives. No sex of any kind, in fact.
Moreover sucks to be blindly religious but… YKNOW.
Not all conservatives are fundies. I’m not one, just saying. And I still think that scientists had nothing better to do that day than decide that Pluto wasn’t really a planet…
Actually, I’m pretty sure it was more that a better definition of planet was needed because so many things that could fit into the category of planet had been found that it would have been ridiculously unwieldy as a category if not redefined. Pluto is smaller than some of the other dwarf planets anyway.
not that anyone cares, but I spent whole MINUTES trying to think of the best way to word that
maybe I shoulda gone with “sucks to be Ryan”
While not all conservatives are fundies, the counter statement is not true because all fundies are conservative. And crazy to some degree.
A good one indeed.
YES, Joyce. YESSSSSSS. Come to the science side of the Force!
“I find your lack of rational hypothesis repeatedly tested under controlled circumstances disturbing.”
Yesss, YESSSSS!!! Let the knowledge gained by repeated experimentation through the manipulation of independent variables within a controlled environment FLOW through you!
So… more kissing ?
Yeeesss, learn the ways of experimentation…
Give into your rational thought. Let logic flow through you.
Search your data, you know it to be accurate within a margin of acceptable and unavoidable error.
I love you guys.
Poor Joyce. Doomed to roam the world hounded by old Earth Evolutionists.
Gah! Damn sticky shift key! That should be Old Earth Evolutionists, not Earth Evolutionists who are old…
“What about homosexuality?”
“CHANGE THE SUBJECT!”
“That Ethan dude seemed to be checking out that boring one.”
“I SAID CHANGE TH- I mean… that’s not related…?”
I forgot that some people were upset about Hans when “Frozen” 1st came out! Memories.
What was the problem with Hans?
ginger sideburns *shudder*
He appeared to be the stereotypical Disney-prince-love-at-first-sight. Then, it turns out he was the villain of the movie. Him and the Duke of Weaseltown.
That’s a brilliant fuckin twist! I don’t get why some people can get upset by good plot. smh
I think Joyce and Becky would be upset about Hans because he’s a jerk, not because they didn’t like the plot (although tbh I thought the twist was kinda cheap)
I don’t get why some people can get upset by good plot.
Some people just don’t like seeing things go against their expectations, I guess.
Let it go.
Clever tophat.
In this particular situation, the problem is Hans might be a bit too similar to Ryan for comfort. The whole seeming ideal and then turning out to be a jerk thing, you know.
Oh shit… that’s actually a really good point
Which is also why a lot of real people didn’t like the twist. Reality set in and destroyed the fantasy.
Maybe the wanna reject that reality & substitute their own?
Yeah, that’s what I assume she meant too. Given that the whole night was essentially to serve as a therapyish night for Joyce to recover from that evening, Becky seems to be a little worried that a character who’s main arc is pretending to be charming when actually they mean harm the whole time may have hit uncomfortably close to home.
I thought of that when they first decided to watch Frozen. I’d wondered then if the Hans betrayal scene would be triggering to Joyce. After all, Joyce had believed she was making a real connection with Ryan. She was already thinking about him as a future husband. Then he drugged her and would have raped her, bloody nose or not, if Sarah and the others hadn’t intervened. There is a definite parallel there.
I enjoyed Frozen. I’m not saying it was without flaws, or plot holes. It wasn’t perfect, but I generally enjoyed the premise, and I appreciated the way it subverted expectations.
Hmm, I wondered about that, having not seen Frozen (yet–I give it to Christmas before it’s foisted upon us)
I kinda don’t know how you could possibly have a BETTER twist, though??
Right? Frozen has its faults, but it DOES have some legitimately good ideas and characterization that defies traditional Disney fare. The music’s only mostly OK, though.
When I first heard that tune, I thought “meh”, that’s no Sammy Cahn tune.
Now I understand it’s a *thing*.
It’s not a well executed twist. It seems to serve mostly as a scapegoat so that Elsa doesn’t have to be the villain. And hans is just so suddenly cartoonishly evil that it pulls me right out of the movie. But that’s just my opinion.
No no don’t tell me these things let me live in my fantasy world
What, you were disturbed by the cartoon sociopath in an actual cartoon?
I don’t wanna go too into this but I feel like the characterization in Frozen is honestly pretty weak compared to other disney movies. It’s a solid 6/10 for me but everyone else really loves it so meh.
Elsa was written as the villain initially, but the writers decided to make her a hero instead and had to somewhat ham handedly rewrite huge sections of the story and her songs to make it work. Its why Hans doesn’t have the traditional Disney villain song: he wasn’t the original villain. Also, Elsa probably killed thousands and sent the kingdom into ruin by obliterating the spring plantings with her spoiled tantrums.
It’s kind of like Brave in that regard. Brave feels like 2 movies spliced together to me and apparently, that’s exactly what it was. I think as an animation major I’m just very critical but stuff like that really sticks out to me.
She was at least trying to control that. The real villainy was shutting the gates and not letting the subjects trade to make a living. Also keeping yourself in a catle with servants while nobody is actually bothering to perform any useful role of government (although Anna somehow felt the need to leave a royal in charge when she went out for the day). Judging by the clothes it was right in the era of republican revolutions. The princesses where lucky not to end up with their heads in baskets
I mean, to be fair, they were kind of trying to do that to Elsa once her powers came to light. And Anna was probably seen as harmless
Well they were wanting to burn the witch but not so much overthrow the parasitic oppressors. In a medieval setting with the men in hose I’d buy it, but not in knee britches
Except when you see her undo the winter all the plants are just fine so there was apparently no real harm done. It’s magic after all.
Panic attacks do not equal “spoiled tantrums.” The blizzard was an unintended result of Elsa’s untrained powers and anxiety.
Is she responsible for it? Yes, and she makes good on what she did. But calling it a spoiled tantrum is very inaccurate.
Id be inclined to agree with you if she wasn’t belting out an empowering Broadway style song about letting the storm rage on while building an impressive intricate ice castle. Seems less panic attack and more self-entitled tantrum with no concept of other people.
You might be more inclined to agree if you paid attention and recognized that the panic attacks that caused the kingdom-wide winter happened in an entirely different scene and in different circumstances than the liberating, self-empowering coming-out ballad. Additionally, continuing to refer to panic attacks as “tantrums” will get you banned off these comments so damn fast, so I’d tread friggin’ carefully.
Actually, Hans DOES have a traditional Disney villain song. He just shares it with Anna who keeps missing all the clues.
Seriously, relisten to “Love is an Open Door” – Hans is NOT singing a romantic song there, he’s singing about his evil plan. And occasionally lying his ass off when Anna goes off script. “That’s what I was going to say?” Yeah, right.
From the “making of” special the rewrite came when they wrote “Let It Go” for Elsa. They had a song that they knew was going to be huge, and the only way they could use it was to make Elsa the protagonist of the story.
A lot of people think Hans was made the villain because the crew thought one was needed after they made Elsa an anti-villain. The hamfisted execution of the twist tends to give credence to the idea that Hans was given Big Bad status midstream.
ya
I think we should give them a little more credit. Hans and Ana (?)’s song in the beginning is a kind of parody of the “love at first sight” convention, and it felt very satisfying when the dude who wanted to get married after one date turned out to be a controlling sociopath.
Yeah, I can understand why Becky might be worried about the parallels, but personally I loved that twist and that tack especially as Disney had been one of the prime sellers of toxic myths like love and marriage at first sight and if at first you don’t get the girl, relentlessly stalk her until she turns around. It’ll really help the next generation have better models for romantic relationships than little girls often get (cough cough Twilight).
Yes exactly. It was a twiston the level of Shopgirl, which made me feel very uncomfortable in a way I couldn’t even understand, and then was perfectly explained and justified as “yes, this should feel uncomfortable, because it is not healthy.”
Yea. There’s that moment where Hans has the perfect opportunity to let Elsa be killed and he doesn’t, and people have tried to fanwank it into making sense (https://myrenaissanceblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/answering-your-questions-why-let-elsa-live/). But… please, Hans would not have looked bad if, in a highly stressful and dangerous militant situation, he failed to react quick enough and to the right stimuli in order to save Elsa. The fact that fans feel the need to post long explanations defending Hans’ characterisation speaks for how weak it is. Frozen’s a fun movie, but let’s not pretend that Disney didn’t flub some things here and there for the sake of the plot needing to move in the direction it did.
I disliked it not because of the plot twist, but because it was poorly set up. A good plot twist should be foreshadowed, so that when you rewatch the movie you can see “oh! He really was the bad guy all along!”
In Frozen? The only foreshadowing you get is LITERALLY a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment. It’s poorly executed.
What? Almost everything Hans does is foreshadowing. The entire song Love Is An Open Door is foreshadowing.
Yeah, it’s textbook manipulative and faux charming. It’s just we’re not used to media (and especially Disney media) actually agreeing that the “handsome outsider” who “wants to talk you away from all this” is a giant red flag rather than being romantic.
Yes. Agree 100%.
Okay. I was thinking Hans was the guy with the moose.
That was KRISTOFF, and Sven was a REINDEER. Don’t come in here with your incorrect information!
Yeah! Reindeer are CARIBOU,whereas moose are ELK!
Wait I thought they were both called Sven. Thats what Olaf said!
He wasn’t a Prince Charming, he was a very naughty boy.
“PRINCE CHARMING!! PRINCE CHARMING!!”
“Oh, go away…”
He seems like a nice guy but turns out to be the villain.
Hey, that’s like… that guy. Glassface. That’s his name, right?
Maybe Hans seemed a bit too much like Ryan?
Yeah, Ryan. I thought that was it but than figured I was thinking of Bart O’Ryan or something.
Glassface sounds like a name of a Dick Tracy villain.
Yes. And we’ve already seen his origin story.
Yeah, a well-deserved one as opposed to the Glassface from Trainspotting.
From what I heard people were pissed because he was too hot to be a villain
Real world lessons, I s’pose. Ever seen young Stalin?
OMG YES
*Fans self*
I know, right? And I don’t even LIKE guys! Geez, Young Stalin is like the hottest guy I’ve ever seen. <3
I’m not into dudes, either, but you don’t have to be into dudes to appreciate that kind of unbridled physical beauty.
It’s like a Black Hole. You can run, but it will find a way… O.O
So I googled it and while I can’t deny that dude was pretty hot I’m honestly not convinced that he was Stalin
Young Stalin was the model for the poster of Big Brother on the book cover for 1984
Holy hell. I am now questioning my sexuality and my political affiliation.
Pfff idiots bad boys are always the hottest (mostly cause they always wear leather jackets but still)
Have they never watched Sleeping Beauty?
Or, if your tastes swing that way, Beauty and the Beast?
The Ron Perlman TV series?
Apparently Gaston was really groundbreaking in Beauty and the Beast, too, since Disney normally equates beauty with goodness.
Snow White’s step-mother– beautiful. The Dwarves: none of them would get a first date in the real world.
Pinnochio — goodness was defined by his actions.
Dumbo — goofiest-looking guy was the hero.
Cinderella… the step-mother was initially beautiful, but got old– and she was mean before she got old, and even then, she looked, at worst, stately; the tradition of the ugly step-sisters wasn’t Disney based, though.
Alice in Wonderland was kind of a mixed bag– there were some beautiful things (the flowers, for example), that got pretty vile. And Alice was kind of plain looking.
Sleeping Beauty had three incredibly frumpy heroines, and there’s a reason they tabbed Angelina Jolie for the reimagining of Malificent.
Merlin was hardly good looking in The Sword and the Stone, and who knows what Madame Mimm actually looked like. And Arthur was too young to really be past goofy-looking.
The hero in The Black Cauldron looks pretty goofy.
The Little Mermaid’s kind of the first one where I really see a “Disney did it” on the “Beauty = good”, and even in that we can see a fairly strong message of “Good looks aren’t enough.” Eric fell in love with the chick who saved his life (proactive actions), and he knew her by her voice– Ariel’s good looks weren’t enough to make him fall in love with her.
Beauty and the Beast– duh.
Aladdin… I know some chicks who like Jaffar; idk. But he definitely was better looking than the Sultan.
Pocahontas — I just hate that animation style, and the historian in me despised the retelling.
Hunchback of Notre Dame– I mean, Quasimodo.
Hercules– awkward animation, but heroes (and Muses) were equally fair and foul.
Mulan fits the tradition cited, which kind of means it deviates from the norm.
And then a ton of their movies feature animals or anthropomorphic animals which are kind of hard to quantify. I know that Disney has that reputation… but it really doesn’t seem to pass a glance at things. Yes, a fair number of heroines and heroes have been good looking, but a strong number of them have ALSO been fuggos, deformed, or what-not, and in most cases, they have been more defined by their actions (selflessness, sacrifice, kindness, gentleness, industriousness).
If you’re not gonna count the ugly stepsisters against Disney, you don’t get to count the evil stepmothers in Disney’s favor. They’re all specified as BEING beautiful, especially Snow White’s mother, for whom it is the entire plot of that fairy tale.
I also think some of these choices confuse “ugly” with “not sexy”. The Sultan isn’t ugly. Neither are the Three Good Fairies in Sleeping Beauty. They’re all perfectly pleasant to look at, cute little old people with button noses.
Compare Jafar to Aladdin and tell me again that he’s supposed to be handsome. Compare Wart / Arthur to his stepbrother. Compare Alice to the Queen.
And seriously, you’re giving Disney credit for making The Hunchback of Notre Dame ugly??? You’re giving them credit for the Beast? What rules are you playing by here?
(The Beast was made ugly because he was an ugly person inside, and got to be handsome again after he’d proven he could overcome that, so I think it’s also a weird example. Also, the Disney animators struggled with Gaston, initially making him uglier instinctively and having to be corrected, so yeah.)
How are the heroes and Muses “equally fair and foul”? Do you mean because the one Muse is fat, and Phil isn’t handsome? (Though again, there’s nothing actually UGLY about him, he has the same basic face as the Sultan only with stubble.) I’m pretty sure if you count the gods, you’ll find the movie is incredibly lopsided in favor of pretty good, ugly bad. And the only “bad” character who is at all pretty, Meg, is being blackmailed into her badness and gets redeemed.
I also don’t really agree about The Little Mermaid. I mean, first of all, Ursula vs. any other character in the movie. Second of all, Eric is fixated for a while on the girl who saved his life, but he WAS actually falling for Ariel (based mostly on looks and “body language”), until Ursula showed up and put a spell on him. Physical attraction was definitely there and important.
Pinocchio isn’t ugly. Dumbo was adorable. Again, just because they’re not sexy doesn’t mean they’re ugly.
You can still absolutely tell good animals from bad ones. For example, Flounder vs. Flotsam and Jetsam. Scar vs. Mufasa.
There ARE some exceptions, but I think you’d be hard-pressed to say there ISN’T a general rule which Disney occasionally subverts, rather than no general rule.
Whether characters are “defined by their actions” doesn’t actually matter; what matters is the overall pattern where badness and ugliness are strongly correlated.
Also, Hans was very unusual in that his character design didn’t convey his evilness at all. Mostly the characters who are both pleasant to look at and evil have a certain hardness and meanness around their eyes; they might not be ugly, but they somehow still look cold or mean. (Gaston; the hunter in Tarzan; Cinderella’s stepmother…) Hans’s puppy dog eyes were very unusual.
I’d be Harsher on the beast…if he wasn’t you know..like eleven when he got cursed…
I think they saw the original version, where Hans shot first.
I don’t remember that. All I heard were complaints about ‘hidden lesbian agendas’ and they were trying to ‘brainwash young girls that being gay was OK’ or something along those lines.
If they’re going to complain about something about the movie they could complain about how shite it was rather then make stuff up
Um, they were sisters? It was specifically sisterly love, instead of romantic love? I mean, I know it’s not your argument, it is just so dumb that it causes physical discomfort.
It wasn’t that the two girls were in love with each other, but that Elsa’s powers which her parents forced her to hide was an allegory for closeted homosexuality, culminating in the coming-out-ballad “Let It Go.”
…Huh. I never would have thought of that, actually.
I’m like 97% sure that all the conservatives who recognised Let It Go for the coming out song that it is are themselves deeply closeted and in dire need of… letting it go.
Really not fond of the “haha, ironic punishment” theory of sexuality. Some homophobic people clearly think about sex between two people of their gender way too often, or else they’ll say weird revealing things like “if same sex marriage had been legal when I was younger, WHAT WOULD HAVE BECOME OF ME?” (I think there was a Miss America contestant who said it was important for young people not to have that option, like she hadn’t when she was younger. …very Freudian.)
But when you’re paranoid and full of persecution complex, you don’t actually need any other reason to see The Enemy around every corner.
Huh. Go figure. All I know is, we definitely shouldn’t inspire or empower kids. Who knows what will happen
They might start doing things without asking?
We can’t have that! Could you imagine the chaos?
The horror, the horror
Thinking about my nephews… yes. Yes I can.
Actually, it would probably be pretty much just like it is now. :-/
I just found it a bit of a glaring issue that the little troll things told her parents explicitly that making her fear her power was a bad move, so they told her to fear her power. I mean, there’s not much of a story if they had listened, but still, they did exactly the opposite of what they were advised without any explanation as to why.
i dunno sounds like fundie parents to me
Heh/
Now remember her powers are controlled by love.
Were gonna lock her in her room!
You guys are frigging idiots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8
Would have been a lot shorter movie if they had listened
Yuuuuuuup. That whole plot had a bunch of parallels to that. The parents telling her she needed to hide who she was away and not let it show lest others reject her, the liberating very coming out style song in Let it Out, the very clear closet coming out metaphor of her hiding in her room for that whole initial section of the movie, and the initial reaction of the townspeople. There was a lot that resonated for queer viewers that led to a lot of speculation that Elsa was essentially the first lesbian Disney “princess”.
So naturally, it makes sense that bigots would also see those parallels and have the opposite of a pleased reaction to them. Especially someone like Toe Dad who probably already had reason to be “worried” about his daughter’s sexuality.
It’s funny you say that. I’ve never seen Frozen and I had not heard any of the soundtrack until months after the film was out of theatres and the host at karaoke was singing it and I asked my friend, “Is this a song about coming out?”
I have no idea how the rest of a flick pans out, but that “Let It Go” song definitely read as a coming out anthem that I would have cringed at during my coming out process.
The sad thing is because of that movie someone (not me) now believes that homosexuals can shoot ice out of their hands.
[facepalm]Please tell me that was supposed to be a joke[/facepalm]
The Right is right to fear us!
Soon, you breaders will fall. You know we have Magneto? And, well, really all of the Xmen, and Batwomen… And Sheldon.
Lets not forget , “Have you Tried Not being a Mutant”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxLrH5ydSMM
Bobby Drake , just came out as gay retroactively, in a time-travel story :
http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/geek/2015/04/21/one-original-x-men-comes-out-gay-spoilers .
I think its something in the Ice . Something Sexeh.
I think that was the new Mad Max movie, not Frozen. :p
First time I saw it in the theater, when he said the line, a girl a few rows in front of me actually went “NO!”
Every time I saw the movie in theaters, I heard multiple gasps at that line (except the first time, when I was too busy gasping to notice).
Really? I thought there were only two possibilities. Either Hans was secretly evil, or he wasn’t bad but didn’t love Anna anyway and was just trying to get out of his family.
Like, the setup only really allowed for those two things – Hans couldn’t save Anna, that much was obvious.
I wasn’t sure how it was going to end, but I never once considered that a Disney Princess movie was going to have a pleasant, handsome, goofy love interest suddenly turn out to be evil. It is not a thing that they do, historically speaking.
“The” line? Which line? I must know. ._.
“I did it. I KILLED MUFASA.”
NOOOooOOOoooOO!
The one starting with “Oh, Anna…”
Oooooooh. I really gotta rewatch that movie, don’t I.
I dunno, I liked him.
I still say things would have worked out better for everyone if they’d all watched Finding Nemo.
I keep thinking of Finding Forrester, and I don’t know why.
Finding Neverland for me.
just keep swimming, just keep swimming… <
Naaa, the 2 Short Circuit movies would be a much better choice. I know I loved them…
Yes! More achelousaurus!
Alchosaurus – The Drunken Lizard.
Alcohol vs. Dinosaurs, fight?
We now return to “When Dinosaurs Get Drunk”.
Next on the Discovery Channel: “Stumbling Home From The Bar With Dinosaurs.”
And the inevitable porn of “Dinos Gone Wild”…
Victory for Dina!!!!
… I also want to know more about Achelousaurus.
They were quadrupedal herbivores with parrot-like beaks, rough bosses (raised bony areas) on their snouts and one pair behind their eyes, and a pair of horns on the end of their long bony frills. With body lengths of up to six meters (20 feet) and a weight of three tonnes, Achelousaurus were medium-sized ceratopsians.
. . . according to Wikipedia anyway.
Yeah, that about covers it.
Not sure why Dina wanted to talk about Achelousaurus, honestly. I mean, they’re a ceratopsian genus discovered by Jack Horner, and they look kinda neat, but they aren’t even really the coolest ceratopsian. Personally, I’m a Styracosaurus fan, myself. Although I got a soft spot for Protoceratops and Psittacosaurus. So, yeah, I’m not sure why Dina wanted to talk about Achelousaurus.
Now, Sinosauropteryx, THAT’S a different story…
So…no one should bring up Dinobots just to play it safe?
Right now, I’m just imagining Dina facing off against the DInobots lecturing them about their anatomical inaccuracies.
Grimlock: ME GRIMLOCK AM STRONG! ME GRIMLOCK AM KING!
Dina: You Grimlock are exhibiting an upright stance that isn’t supported by modern paleontological evidence, which suggests that said posture would cause the dislocation of various important joints. I find your factual incorrectness offensive.
Grimlock:…ME GRIMLOCK AM CONFUSED.
Dina: Clearly.
Amber: OHMYGODYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS.
+1
Grimlock, you stare blankly, like a doll. Is this agreement?
*Grimlock stares at Dina*
“Me Grimlock no like you.”
*Grimlock tries swatting Dina with arms in Dino mode, Dina dodges easily*
“Scientists now believe Tyrannosaurus Rex’s fore limbs were mainly used to assist getting up from laying down, having found signs of strength in them despite their size. However they would be almost useless in hunting or battling due to their small size…”
*Grimlock tries using his flame-breath attack, but Dina is picked up by another Autobot who quickly takes her away, though they cannot stop her commenting as they go.*
“There is no evidence that Tyrannosaurus Rex could breath fire, or that any Dinosaur could launch mouth-based projectiles, including Dilophosaurus………..”
“Me Grimlock no like her. Me grimlock no do dino wrong, me Grimlock KING…”
Looking at the last panel that speech bubble came from Becky though…
Something I like about Dina: she doesn’t only talk up the dinosaurs that looked coolest, were the biggest, most ferocious, etc. She loves them all. Achelosaurus is just as worthwhile to bring up as any other kind.
Honestly, I have no idea how anyone could not find Achelousaurus to be awesome looking.
What no love for the Bambiraptor(Yes it’s an actual dinosaur)
I see your Bambiraptor and raise you a Masiakasaurus Knopfleri.
Eh, Bambiraptor’s a pretty generic raptor. Got a fun name, but that’s about it.
By being Styracosaurus partisans, apparently.
Eh, I like Styracosaurus, but I can at least admit that Achelousaurus looks pretty cool.
I’d rather talk about Balaur Bondoc. Despite the fact that it was originally classified as a velociraptor relative, more recent studies have indicated that its second toe-claw is probably just evidence of it being an early bird. Seriously, it’s a bird that looks like a heavily-built velociraptor with two toe claws, what’s not to like? Or Deinocheirus. Deinocheirus is always fun.
Billie is factually accurate.
But utterly tone deaf.
I don’t think singing comes into it at all.
She’s right that alcohol isn’t some inherent evil, but to prove that point she brings up Joyce’s traumatic incident.
That is miles beyond acceptable.
No, Sarah and Becky brought up the traumatic incident, and she pointed out that it had nothing to do with alcohol.
There is a fine difference between referencing the event and why it makes Joyce uncomfortable and “NUH-UH THAT GUY SLIPPED YOU A ROOFIE IT’S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!”
This is not the time and place to be debating that. It never will be.
Joyce has no time for ceratopsids. Go theropod, or go home.
(Unless you’re Becky, who has no home)
Cephalopods are where it’s at, especially if they can transform into kids.
Amen to that!
Oooooh, buuuurn. Sad, sad, burn.
Careful with the dirty talk there, Becky. You’re going to get Dina all hot and bothered.
Feathered dinosaurs really tickle her fancy.
Is THAT what kids call it, these days?
So then if Dina ever becomes truly sexual is this https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5400003/il_fullxfull.342936386.jpg what we can expect?
Or to dress like Emily from QC. You know, THAT feather dress.
I was thinking more along these lines…
http://hill-kleerup.org/dave/comics/images/xxxenophile.gif
that is so cute!
That would have been perfect for my college GF.
Quick, let’s think of more incredibly awkward topics that could be brought up.
So Becky, how’s your college life going?
hey Joyce, how’s your boyfriend, Ethan?
hey Sarah, how’s Other Jacob?
Bisexuality! Let’s turn the tables and make Becky feel awkward.
“Attention everyone, I have an important announcement!…..
Billie’s got a BOYYYYFRIEND!”
Can you believe Ruth showed up? She’s so terrible I don’t know how anyone can stand her.
Billie makes a good point and I’m surprised Sarah doesn’t see it
The argument is logical, but the context of the scene says a lot more.
Joyce has experienced trauma. People who experience trauma associate certain smells, tastes, and sights with their traumatic events. It really doesn’t matter if the alcohol was the reason or not, recreating the scene of the trauma isn’t usually a good thing for people suffering from it.
Billie is addicted to alcohol. She shouldn’t have brought it to the party, and on some level, she probably knows it. What she’s doing is more justifying her addiction than making any argument to help Joyce understand or feel better about what happened.
No, shes responding to an attack from Becky (inadvertantly I think) and did Billy know it was a dry party anyway or was she “supposed” to know
It was a Joyce party. That’s not exactly out of nowhere.
I personally think the bigger issue here is her friends indulging Joyce and letting her carry on in a way thats not actually helping her
Not sure how “throw a fun party without invoking rape trauma” is “indulging Joyce.”
More like seeing that Joyce is not handling a traumatic experience at all well and deciding a party is best course of action as opposed to saying to her that she should talk someone
Sure its not easy to bring up the subject but ignoring the elephant in the room isn’t helping either
The whole point of the party was to give Joyce the same form of socialization a party offers, but doing it on her terms with people she trusts. Joyce should be able to socialize and have fun without that lingering fear. That’s what Becky was trying to do setting this up.
“Talking to a therapist” is genuinely, incredibly, super difficult. You’re pouring your feelings and fears out to a complete stranger. People need to stop acting like it’s a magical Cure-All for emotional trauma. What Becky tried to do for Joyce is genuinely one of the best things she could do.
Mm. I feel a bit uncomfortable about this particular set of advice for Joyce, specifically because while therapy may be an ideal aide that is severely lacking for Joyce, I bristle a little at the notion that those who suffer a form of trauma should only receive therapy and nothing else.
Specifically because it is a bit of advice often given to people suffering traumatic events and it often (at least in my experience) has more to do with the discomfort of the person hearing about it to think about it than anything that is genuinely thinking of the traumatized individual.
Additionally, reducing trauma to an issue you talk about with a therapist and nothing else about has encouraged a system of silencing in my experiences where people feel bad about sharing their experiences and therefore become more likely to internalize them and self-blame because “they’re just bringing everyone down with this shit anyways”. This also leads socially to situations where people assume they know fewer traumatized people than they actually do.
And it also ignores that this party is a form of therapy. Not all therapeutic acts need occur in a controlled environment with a licensed therapist and often times therapists will directly encourage actions like this.
I mean, trying to regain an activity robbed from you by trauma by controlling the environment and regaining a sense of control in one’s life again can be a crucial aspect of therapy, especially for traumas born out of the theft of that control and autonomy such as rape.
Besides, having support of friends is as critical as mental health services for getting through things like this (a therapist can only see you once in a while and only if you’re feeling well enough to go, whereas a friend or loved one can be there much more frequently and can provide support when you’re triggered or too fucked up to leave the house).
And let’s not forget that a therapist might not be a positive experience. Psychologists hired by universities to serve the student population tend to be awful and very victim blamey and I’ve known quite a number of people put off from therapists even though they could greatly benefit from them because of terrible encounters with university psychologists.
University therapists are oftentimes the absolute fucking worst. I went to the counseling office saying I was thinking of killing myself and I was told I could make an appointment. That night, I tried to do it. And that was just depression. I’ve heard horrible stories about rape victims being blamed or told that maybe they should ‘forgive’ their attacker and not press charges.
Ok so if the party is designed to make Joyce feel safe and help her to socialize shouldn’t it have been stated its a dry party and why its a dry party or are the guests supposed to just “know”
People on here are forgetting Billies (probably) an alcoholic so her decision making around alcohol isn’t so crash hot
Well for one thing, all things the party includes, including the ones the things chosen by Joyce, are triggers for her conned betrayed , Drugging and capture by Ryan.
The small amount of consensual drinking provided by Billie isnt one of them, and thats why Billie objects.
Soda Drinking/soda drinking in party , Christian-only music/talking with a “preachers son” . Nice handsome man is the villain/Ditto in Frozen.
Joyce should already be triggered. AN Angry sounding Ruth busting in and threatening people with bodily harm for no reason isnt the sort of thing that will give most people peaceful dreams on top of this.
Maybe that might make Joyce feel safe; but if someone triggered Joyce here, I think it was Ruth , not Billie.
on the otherhand if Joyce drinks that might be more triggering
( assuming she never drank before ). And a safe-space party like this one is probably the perfect place for Joyce to learn to drink comfortably .
I’d think that “don’t break the law” would be the default assumption for most of human life, including parties involving Joyce.
I’ve seen you post multiple times about the fact that it wasn’t explicitly stated that Joyce’s party was a “dry” party and why should they have assumed so? Despite the trauma and just knowing Joyce as a person and understanding what she may have wished (no alcohol seems pretty logical), the fact that all of them were hiding the alcohol and fact that they were drinking to begin with until one of them got caught kind of implies that everyone knew, on some level, that they shouldn’t have been drinking. If they were drinking it openly then you could claim that they just didn’t know, but they were obviously hiding it from Joyce which means that they knew better and they just didn’t care.
Joyce wasn’t reacting to Billie at all.
Her only negative reaction was to being reminded of the original situation.
The people having a go at Billie both are overly protective. They are manifesting their own guilt and projecting it onto Billie.
Well yeah they are overprotective. One of them is “Big Sis” Sarah and the other is Joyce’s long time best friend who feels they owe the world to her and is also still carrying a major torch for her.
And they both live with her and have seen at least one instance of triggers the others haven’t.
So yeah, major recipe for a crew that will bleed and die for you out of loyalty and protectiveness.
These are excuses for bad behavior, but the behavior remains bad regardless. Billie is defending herself from overprotective friends who are inadvertently making things worse with their accusations.
Literally all Joyce did was express her dissatisfaction with her friends drinking. Billie is the one who made it a big deal, Sarah and Becky responded why Joyce would have a problem with it, and then Billie went into Super Alcoholic Asshole mode.
I agree with you.
And though the alcohol was not directly involved in causing Joyce’s trauma, it WAS something a lot of people at the party were having that would have limited:
a) Decision-making, remember how none of the people kept Ryan restrained or in sight?
b) Coordination, if it wasn’t for Sarah, it would have been up to drunk people to try to fight Ryan off, and their odds wouldn’t have been great with their lack of balance, coordination and quite also possibly, poor focus.
c) Searching ability and memory, no one actually found Ryan, and I bet it is because more than half of them forgot who he was and what he looked like at the time because recalling things is harder when you are drunk.
The alcohol didn’t directly bring her harm, but it did greatly reduce the safety of the environment she was in and it is easy for someone with bad intentions to take advantage of that, especially if other people were getting as blitzed as Billie.
And imagine if Ruth had actually come to this party with the intention of beating up Joyce – you can instantly tell that it is easier for her to do so if half the people can be pushed over because they’re tipsy than if everyone is sober.
Oh boy, you haven’t been to the same parties as I have… anyone messing with our friends would get obliterated
Well, not just that, too; the other party was the first one Joyce ever went to with drinking. She’d been taught all her life (I imagine) that alcohol was bad and girls who went to parties where everyone was drinking would get raped. Of course that’s not necessarily true; but here she is, at a party where kids are drinking, aaaaand… someone tries to rape her.
So, nothing like having Mum and Dad saying, “Don’t do this perfectly normal thing, or this terrible thing will happen!” and then actually having it (kind of) happen as predicted. So now that idea that alcohol at parties = BAD!! has been nicely reinforced.
So, she tries to have a nice, fun party without alcohol, because Jesus Christ, does alcohol at parties EVER = bad. Aaaand… Billie brings alcohol anyways.
Hopefully at least Joyce will see that it is possible to have a couple of drinks without people trying to rape each other, but it would have been much better to just keep it a dry party.
I think it’s a bit of both. In that, yes, having a party filled with drunks (the first party with [same-aged] drunks that Joyce had ever be in) could reasonably have a nasty side of association and be triggered by it. Which, is also why it is reasonable for Becky in her very protective mood this evening to be worried about it.
And yeah, Billie’s first response is pure defensiveness that has more to do with justifying the impact of her alcoholism on others than anything, which is why she interprets “certain things” being a direct attack on her primary partner (alcohol) rather than on any of the other negative things that happened at the party (Sarah’s fight, people constantly leaving or threatening to leave, Ruth scaring the bejeezus out of everyone).
But I’m glad that even if it was born out of self-interest, Billie said what she did about alcohol as it’s probably helpful that Joyce get reinforcement that the assault wasn’t about the place it took place in or anything to do with controllable actions by her as I sadly know from direct experience that it can be really easy to find all sorts of ways to blame oneself or the situation one was in for things like that.
So, accidental good advice about triggers from someone who definitely wasn’t aware of it (Billie is a loyal lover and will defend her romantic partners to the death when she infers they are being attacked).
Billie doesn’t understand PTSD or how triggers work or actually care overmuch about Joyce’s emotional well being Billie just wants to justify her indulging of her alcoholism in a situation where it was clearly a bad idea.
“Clearly”? Maybe it was a bad idea (it doesn’t seem to have actually triggered anything, though, until Sarah and Becky started talking), but I’m struggling to think of how that was supposed to be obvious to Billie.
Well, any more obvious than regarding any other party on a dry campus, with people under 21 present, particularly on Ruth’s floor, that is.
Goddamn Hans ruining the evening!
Sideburns ruins everything! Best thing is when Anna gets protective of her Elsie, and starts hurting him. <3
For some people the Hans reveal is like the Darth Vader reveal in The Empire Strikes Back.
Except not something everyone my age has grown up knowing and a staple of popular culture so parodied that the actual moment has lost all gravitas?
Give it a generation. With as obsessed with Frozen kids are these days, it will be a ubiquitous pop culture touchstone in about 15 years.
Maybe but at the moment the biggest thing people remember most about Frozen is the Let It Go song and the wincest subtext rather than Hans turning out to be the villain.
“Subtext,” in this case, meaning “two characters fanartists find attractive appear on screen together at some point.”
That’s just about all you need in most situations.
I would’ve put in something about showing any sort of affection (THEY’RE SISTERS) but I know perfectly well that “subtext” gets broken out over characters who hate each other, too.
“That’s just about all you need in most situations.”
…Just look in the comment section of many Dumbing Of Age pages for a great many examples…
I’ll just leave this here…
“But sometimes even a queen needs a day off.”
ummm
Also “love” breaking the spell, in which context “love” is almost always the romantic kind. Add in Elsa and Anna staying at the castle while reindeer dude leaves and their general behavior towards each other….
“subtext”
Don’t you mean, “you should check if you’re blind if you can’t see it”?
It’s called a functional sibling relationship. If you and your siblings don’t bear any affection for each other something probably went wrong somewhere along the line.
Especially since they have been estranged for what I assume is a few years, and having been through multiple life or death situations
Or forgotten in the next couple of months.
(More like the Darth Vader Reveal at the end of Revenge of the Sith)
That mood whiplash between the last two panels though
Yeah but it’s nice to see Joyce put her foot down when Billie brought it up.
Definitely also true.
Um so are we gonna just ignore that Dina now knows what happened to Joyce? (I mean she doesn’t have all the details sure but I mean I would imagine Joyce doesn’t really want the knowledge to spread..
You make a nice point.
Poor Dina, everyone always forgets that she’s in the room.
At least it’s not behind a door this time?.
Oh, 4.5 billion years ago, the Earth day was 6.1 hours long. It’s been slowing down because the moon tugs on Earth’s rotation as the former gets farther away in its escape orbit! I learned that because of the leap second yesterday.
The earth really is only 6000 years long, it’s just that in the old days, they used to have leap eons.
We constructed time, so I guess it’s however old you want it to be, depending on the size of your arbitrary unit.
I mean, it’s still the same age, but I could say it’s 6000 whatevers, if that 6000 whatevers is equal to roughly 4.5 billion years.
Wow Billie…way to bongo it up!
Shes making a very valid point, alcohol had nothing to with happened and blaming it won’t help anyone
That may be true but not exactly the best time or way to point it out
She didn’t bring it up, she responded to a personal attack
I’d hardly call it an attack it’s not as if Becky was getting in her face shouting “what’s your problem”
Besides there was also a pissed off Sara and a forceful entry by Ruth that could be called “certain events” Becky was just making sure the party had served its purpose
Sorry meant to add inadvertantly, I don’t think Becky meant it as an attack, also kudos to Becky about opening her mind
She’s making a rational point. PTSD isn’t rational. That party was very likely Joyce’s first party involving alcohol, so being at a gathering involving alcohol and being roofied are bound to be very closely linked in her mind.
You see now I know you just put the word “bongo” in the sentence instead of using the filter word, because the filter word does not make sense in that context.
Becky, tell me about half of the things Dina said in that entire conversation.
Becky, tell me ALL OF THE THINGS.
“Change the subject.”
“How about that ebola virus. Crazy, huh?”
“Change the subject again.”
“So Donald Trump said–”
“Change the subject back.”
I award you 1 internet, and 1 Donald Trump hairpiece.
Wouldn’t the hairpiece eat the internet though?
hahahahhahaha ‘sorry about Hans’. YAAAAS Man I didn’t even otice how multi-appropriate that movie was to these guys. so Becky’s Else, who was dramatically outed, fled, and is now having a wonderful time (before she’s forcibly taken back ah shit foreshadowing)
and Joyce has been waiting her entire like to get out, and incidentally, fall in love, and it hasn’t super worked for her. Who’s kristoff?
Who’s Olaf? (I kinda want olaf to be Dina, for no real reason)
I’m goin’ for Walky as Olaf. But Kristoff…not sure.
maaaaybe Ethan?
I would place Danny as Kristoff
I would have suggested Ethan as Kristoff, but since Anna and Kris seem to end up together, that’s probably not all that accurate… Maybe Kris would be like a mash-up of Ethan and Dorothy since both are helping Joyce in her discovery of the world
and Joyce totally likes Dorothy…?Even without her recent trauma you can just see how a romantic like Joyce would be devastated by Hans. “But,but,but they LOVED each other…”
Oh come on, Dorothy is CLEARLY Kristoff. Kind-hearted, smart, independent, sees trough other people’s bullshit and indoctrination, loves Anna/Joyce. That’s the most obvious parallel to me out of everyone!
Sooo…. Walky is Sven?
+1
YES
yep, I see it
Yay! Dina!
Don’t ever insult Billie’s waifu.
Billie: No, not the booze. The booze was innocent!
The power of potential smooches compels you, Becky.
all I know is that’s gotta be a friggin’ Flask of Holding or something. Something that small got all of the partygoers buzzed?
Must have being firewater in that there flask.
Sure, why not?
190% Proof? That pretty much is firewater.
I love that your avatar is 5-o shadow Joe. Because just like older Joe, I too have trouble remembering when one shot could lead to me being visibly drunk. Oh who am I kidding, it always took at least two.
Billie appears to be pouring more alcohol into her cup in the second panel. Apparently, that flask is *still* not empty, even after she got herself, and half the part guests drunk. Does her flask magically refill itself? I want an origin story for Billie’s magic flask.
I find Becky’s comment in the last panel interesting as it suggests that Dina might very well converted Becky towards evolution with the combination of logic and smooching.
“She
blindedopened my eyes with ScienceIt’s a thing of beauty,
I don’t even think the kissing has that much to do with it. The simple fact that Dina takes time to explain this to Becky, and her obvious passion in the subject, is enough to make Becky interested.
The really sad thing is that this is the first time Becky has the opportunity to learn these things without someone lying to her
Yeah, it’s a combination of right words, right place. Becky was open and willing to listen, was in a point of her life to not feel much loyalty to the narrative she was fed growing up, and in a point of her life filled with curiosity and exploration.
That can often be the thing to carry the day.
People throughout the ages have been willing to switch religions for a pretty face. I don’t find it entirely surprising.
Young-Earth Creationists… I knew one growing up. AY CARUMBA! Mention “dating dinosaur bones” and the knee-jerk reaction is “carbon-dating is a crock!” (actual quote). Never mind the fact that you can’t carbon-date rock, which is what dinosaur bones really are by now, since over the last few million years the bone was dissolved and replaced by a calcium silicate (or something like that).
Oh, and evolution? Laboratory-proven using a thousand generations of fruit flies. (Seriously. There was a Popular Science article commemorating the hundredth(?) anniversary of Darwin’s The Origin of the Species a few years back that detailed it.) Mention that, and they go nuts trying to explain that “evolution is still just a theory”. Well, yeah, but one that’s been lab-tested; if it hasn’t, it’s still a hypothesis. The subtleties are lost on them. (Plus, they equate “theory of evolution” and “big bang” as the same, because both are taught in schools and held as “the universe as we understand it”.)
Oh, and if the universe is only 6000 years old, as they claim, how can we see galaxies that are more than three million lightyears away (like the Triangulum and Andromeda galaxies)?
Sorry for the rant. These guys and their anti-science attitudes just bug me.
Of young-earth creationist rhetoric I know only what I saw in last year’s Ken Ham vs Bill Nye debate. It was quite hilarious until I remembered their
insanegroupof crazy irrational lunaticshas non-negligible influence on US state legislation, like what teachers get to teach in science class.I grew up with Young-Earth Creationism since a lot of my family are SDAs.
I know that one, everything was created at the same time, including the light travelling from those distant galaxies. Which makes their deity the biggest liar in the universe. People who can’t use logic shouldn’t try to make sense of the universe by arguing from the bad premise the universe is only 6000 years old.
That’s the whole thing with the old religions though. They were created to make sense of the world way back when science couldn’t, and tradition carried them into a future where they are irrelevant. It’s sad, really.
The great thing about that argument is that it applies whenever you want. The universe and everything in it was created last Thursday, complete with everyone’s memories of things that happened before then.
Completely unfalsifiable.
What I find funny about YECs is that there are trees, still alive, that are far older than 6000 years.
I’m glad I’ve never met a Creationist. I’d probably deck them in the face if they tried telling me the Earth is only 6000 years old. Yeah I know it’d be wrong of me but at that point, whatever.
My mother, grandmother, great-uncle and his wife all believe in YEC, you should see how they carry on whenever they watch a science show and the words mentions “millions of years ago” or “evolution”.
Well tell them to beware of flying fists because that guy wants to use them!
I’m with the alt text – let’s hear more about achelousaurus.
Woa, Becky, I know Dina is super cute and all but let’s not get carried away with this whole scientific dating thing. Next you will start to believe in evolution or something.
Joyce asserting herself is a good thing. Billie being defensive is an understandable thing. Sarah standing up for Joyce despite all the trouble her party caused is a beautiful thing.
To your very last point; YES. Sarah is such an amazing person.
Scientific dating is the best ship name for Becky/Dina.
I’m still partial to becasaurus
I think Nono’s right. That is an awesome ship name.
Becasaurus conjures and image of Dina using a strap-on size 12.
I still prefer Dinasaurus Becks.
To Billie’s point, all Joyce is doing is just villainizing something tertiary to the thing that caused her grief. It’s basically using her grief to justify her own previous prejudices and people are inclined to support this because she’s been victimized. I think the point of not having alcohol is to create a safe space for Joyce because Joyce doesn’t like alcohol. But if you’re gonna tie those two events is to tie it to “Settlers of Catan”. They’re relevant to the event but not at all related to what caused it.
Not going to challenge that, I bet to her anything that includes intoxication and loss of memory of a entire night may sound traumatizing for her now.
Is Joyce even doing that, though? -Joyce- hasn’t drawn any parallels between Ryan and her party, she was just mad that a bunch of people snuck alcohol into her party without her permission. The fact that she wasn’t huffy about it after everything worked out seems like she was pretty chill once she knew it wasn’t getting anybody in trouble.
PTSD doesn’t care about direct rational correlation. All it needs is a significant enough reminder of the traumatic event to bring the whole thing screaming back. It could be being surrounded by drunk people, it could be Settlers of Catan, it could be the taste of Sierra Mist it doesn’t matter. It just has to be a sensory input relevant to the incident.
Well… exactly. Is Billie supposed to avoid ever having booze, sierra mist, or a game of Settlers of Catan around Joyce, just in case it might be the irrational thing to trigger her PTSD? I don’t think there’s any indication that Joyce expects that, to her credit, but I know from experience that expecting that kind of “sensitivity” from people is insanity.
Being respectful is listening without judgement or undue questions when Joyce asks you not to bring alcohol to her party (which she didn’t do). It is not reading her mind, knowing in advance something will trigger her, and avoiding it.
And it’s the same with Amber too. Amber might have serious and good reasons to be wary of alcohol. Social anxiety is real. But it doesn’t give you a free pass to shit on people for not anticipating it will bother you when you haven’t even verbalized how and why it’s a problem.
This.
Man, Joyce’s WINDEX EYES are really standing out to me today.
This comic is my new favorite because reasons.
Dina convinced me… With her lips.
Ya that’s the thing I bet she wasn’t even listening to any of Dinas intellectual view points, if anything she was just thinking ” boobs, boobs, boobs, Dinosaurs, boobs” the entire time.
Are you saying that’s not what people normally think of?
Well, Jeph Jacques usually thinks about butts.
butts, butts, butts, dinosaurs, butts, butts, dinosaur butts, butts
I’ll have you know I only think of dinosaurs once for every 28 times I think of boobs.
Woah, Joyce: watch those eyebrows, someone could get hurt.
I’m amazed Billie remembers exactly what drink Joyce was having that evening.
Maybe the sheer grossness of Sierra Mist ?
Maybe someone should take the time to explain to Joyce what a roofie is. It hurts but it is kinda important.
Shes already threatened Billie with expulsion from the party so I don’t think shes in any mood to listen to anyone
I didn’t mean right then, but eventually.
Most people left, anyway.
No! Change the something to something that’s younger than 6000 years old and never evolves!
Ignorance?
Keanu Reeves?
Pffft. You think he’s that young?
Keanu Reeves was meant to be Jones’s soulmate, but they never managed to meet.
I’m sure Dina wouldn’t like to be an attendant of any party where dino talk isn’t welcome. It’s cute that she’s hanging around though. I predict a walk home and goodnight kiss in her future.
Also, that’s like the first time Joyce has even gotten short with Billie!
I think that Billie does feel guilty, because that’s how I act when I feel guilty.
Poor Joyce can’t catch a break.
Way to ruin a good mood, people!
I understand Billie’s defensiveness here, but I wonder how much of her anger is linked to defending alcohol — and her alcoholism — at the expense of her friends.
If you are alcoholic, my experience has told me that you are likely to connect everything to alcohol and subsequently get super defensive about it.
Becky: Okay, well, fossils are actually-
Joyce: No!
Becky: Carbon dat-
Joyce: No!
Becky: Christmas-
Joyce: N-! YES.
Becky: -is actually a pagan holiday
Joyce: NOOOOO
Dangit, I meant originally, not actually the second time.
“Oh, you’re holding a no-alcohol party? Sure, I’ll come to your no-alcohol party, but Imma have an alcohol party at your no-alcohol party.”
“What, you brought alcohol to this no-alcohol party? Yaaaay, let’s get pie-eyed!”
Even without the underlying Issues, wow, that is jerk behavior.
No one mentioned anything about alcohol or even the party’s purpose during the invitations. =/
If anything, I’d think Sierra Mist would be her trigger, not alcohol.
Alcohol itself might or might not be a trigger, but my main concern with this whole thing was that the other party was probably Joyce’s first party where people were drinking alcohol, and so that is probably closely linked to the incident in her mind. Being surrounded with drunken people could feel unsettling, even if it didn’t have a direct incidence on what happened to her.
Not to mention getting raped is probably exactly what her parents told her would happen to nice girls who went to drinking parties. So the roofie incident probably tied alcohol to rape even more closely in her mind.
Indeed.
Hans?
Hans is a bit reminiscent of the pastor boy if you think about it
– Oh yeah, what’s his last name? – It’s ‘Of the Seven Isles’!
Southern Isles, its an allusion to magical Denmark, Arrendale is Norway, and Weaslton is Sweden. Krisstoff is actually supposed to be a Suomi, aboriginal Finnish.
Aboriginal Scandinavian, really. The Sami people had a culture that spanned northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia long before pesky cartographers from the south decided that they lived in different countries. That still plays havoc with their ability to make full use of their land.
“Fun” fact, Sweden has still not signed the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples because of fear of loosing control of the natural resources of northern Sweden.
Gdi. I knew that. I quoted that wrong, but I knew it’s Southern. It was like 6am when I wrote that comment, in my defence xD
A lovely subversion of ‘Prince Charming’. Disney’s scriptwriters deserve an award just for building him up as a totally cliché hero then totally turning it on its head in the last reel.
There is far too much potential for ‘Hans’ characters in DoA and Joyce has already been assaulted by one.
Funny thing is, Hans is really an accident. He was supposed to be a good guy until they decided Elsa wasn’t really a villain.
Ugh Billie, I love you, but you need some sensitivity training. And rehab, but that’s a given anyway. Becky and Dina tho <3
Huh. Insensitive as hell Billie, but you do have a point there. Of course we know the reason she defends alcohol, but still, valid point. If only you could have made it in a less angry fashion.
Billy get a bit of sensitivity. While it was a ‘roofie in her sierra mist’, it’s doubtful the would be rapist would have tried it without the cover of a booze party in the background.
Joyce really had a scary experience and doesn’t like talking or thinking about it. But then Joyce doesn’t like to talk about a lot of things, like the earth’s real age etc.
A conservative is just a liberal that’s been mugged.
Love Dina.
I ‘unno, I’ve known at least one conservative who simply suffered from privilege blindness. A few years later, once he married, had a kid, and found himself with no disposable income, he became quite an ardent liberal. Funny how that works.
I heart Becky, I wanna be her when I grow up. ~<3
If I were Joyce, I would have asked Dina if that was an actual science thing or if Becky is just making that one up.
Given that she doesn’t want to talk about it I think it’s a pretty good move not to talk about it…
OH MY GOSH I JUST REALIZED HOW RYAN-Y HANS WAS
Here’s a question that we can’t know the answer to: would Billie still have brought booze even if she’d been specifically asked not to.
I kind of think the answer is yes, because alcoholism. Maybe she would’ve been more reluctant to spread it around, though.
Also, seriously, PTSD is not rational and does not play by any particular rules. (It can also and does present as a host of other mental illnesses, helping to explain the parts of Amber’s issues that aren’t directly related to having been abused as a child.) It doesn’t matter that Sierra Mist or roofies make more sense as triggers.
Nor is Joyce necessarily triggered by alcohol. But of course it is perfectly rational for Becky and Sarah to want to avoid unnecessary reminders of that event on this particular night, from alcohol to Settlers of Canaan. (Hence Joyce’s choosing to play other party games.) None of these characters is a psychologist; they’re just trying their best.
(And no, forcing Joyce to talk about it, or get a therapist, or report the attack… is not necessarily the best thing. While every person is different, one of the most important things you can do for any survivor of rape or attempted rape is to let them know that their wishes are important and will be respected. Don’t force them to do anything with respect to their sexual assault; they’ve had enough of that for a lifetime.)
THIS.
Sexual assault and rape are crimes where autonomy and control over one’s self is directly taken. As such, the best therapy is often things that can re-establish a sense of control over one’s fate and reward autonomy.
So forcing someone into therapy can do way more harm than good, because it can feel like a robbing of autonomy again and thus become associated with the badness.
Moments like this that work to rebuild her sense of autonomy are key for her being able to reach the point where she is able and willing to self-advocated and seek aide for her recovery.
If alcohol had be specifically prohibed I think she’d have just declined to come to the party.
You know what? I’m actually going to revise my theory here.
I wrote up a big reply but as I wrote I thought more, and changed my mind.
Billie did not treat Joyce’s party like a place where it was okay to drink. We know because we have seen her at other parties: she arrives pre-drunk, chugs beer openly, and gets super drunk as fast as possible.
Contrast with her behavior here: she brought a flask, poured it into a party cup, and then kept it largely hidden. She never drank enough to get noticeably drunk. Normal behavior for anyone else, but abnormal from Billie.
She didn’t think drinking was okay; she suspected it was not, and did it anyway.
And Billie had good reason for her expectations: Sarah.
I legitimately don’t think Billie ever thought Joyce would be upset; Joyce willingly went to a frat party, and though she had a horrific experience Billie assumed the beer wouldn’t set her off.
But she knows Sarah got her roommate kicked out for smoking pot. (NOTE: not how I would characterize it!! But it seems to be how Billir sees the incident, from her reaction after Sarah explained.) Billie knows Sarah doesn’t have any reason to cover for her, and might well rat her out for violating both campus policy and the law in Sarah’s room, even if what she’s doing is “harmless”.
I doubt Billie thought all this out; people rarely do. But I think she knew booze wouldn’t be welcome. On some level they all did, or they would have been drinking openly.
For Billie’s part, maybe she even meant it as a quiet snub to Sarah, albeit one she didn’t want to be lectured for. Or maybe she brought alcohol compulsively, because she is literally an addict, even though it might get her in trouble, because she thought she could handle it.
Being confronted by the possibility that she hurt Joyce, though, she’s angry and defensive to cover for her discomfort. Because Billie cares about people more than she wants to admit.
I think she’s litterally an addict. While Ruth at least tried, Billie couldn”t.
That, I agree with. But I thought alcoholic covered that. :|a
Wow, I would hate to see what the big reply was.
That part of my post was not meant to imply that my forthcoming comment would be shorter. No one should ever expect that from me.
Good for you, Becky.
I hope Dina’s major is archeaology. I’m not sure why that just occured to me.
Why would she major in archaeology? That’s not where the dinosaurs are.
Of course it is – have you never seen flintstones (wow – Dina would give me an angry glare for that one).
I’m giving you an angry glare for that one.
I’m kinda doing it myself too.
Oh right paleontology, I got my ologies mixed up.
Is easy to keep straight. Archeaology is the study of old shit, Paleontology is the study of really old shit.
A coprolite IS really old shit
Often studied by old farts. (I’ll be here all night)
And Murtaughology is being too old for that shit.
Tip: Just think of dinosaurs as your pals
So what a person need to do to help Joyce accept evolutionism instead of creationism?
Get kissed like Becky was?
I didn’t think Joyce had it in her to go all “or get out” on someone
6,000 years is an unfeasibly young age for the earth even IF you’re a creationist, recorded human history, the stuff we’ve WRITTEN DOWN and can find calendar dates for, goes back 10,000 years. You CAN’T say the earth is younger than that.
+5
Not to mention that the calculation that gave them the 6,000-years-old thing was done around a thousand years ago. So even by their own weird logic they ought to be up to seven thousand years old now.
Except that I suspect will never change for them, because now it’s old enough to have become canon and therefore immutable, so in another three thousand years they will still be claiming the Earth is only six thousand years old.
–No idea why those calendar dates aren’t addressed by them. I suspect it’s all dealt with under their standard manoeuvre of “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”
Yes, the various calculations of the Earth’s age using Biblical geneologies were done long ago, but those calculations didn’t say “six thousand years ago” but instead gave a specific year, usually around 4000 BC. So when folks say the earth is 6000 years old, they’re just counting back from that number.
It would be quite hilarious if that age was indeed static. Imagine. The year 7256. Two christians, discussing. “So uuuh um how can the Earth be 6000 years old when Jesus was born 7256 years ago?” “God works in mysterious ways.”
“recorded human history, the stuff we’ve WRITTEN DOWN and can find calendar dates for, goes back 10,000 years”
The oldest proto-cuneiform is from about 3400 BC. The oldest coherent texts are from about 2600 BC. So no, more like 4600 years, with proto-writing back to 5400 years. That the Jewish calendar isn’t much bigger than that number is an interesting coincidence.
OTOH “As of 2013, fully anchored chronologies in the northern hemisphere extend back 13,900 years.” That’s based on overlapping tree ring counts.
— a genus of centrosaurine ceratopsid dinosaurs from the Late Cretaceous Period of what is now North America, dated to 74.2 million years ago.
Billie is technically correct. However, she handled that situation poorly. She should have thought before speaking, rather than following her knee-jerk impulse to go on the defensive in a manner that clearly served the sole purpose of justifying her actions to herself.
Hoo boy, that was a run-on sentence. In any case, Billie was tactless there. Joyce clearly doesn’t want to be reminded of that night. She has made it clear on many occasions that she just wants to forget, to pretend it never happened. I can understand the impulse to escape and avoid. I haven’t experienced exactly what Joyce did, thankfully. However, I can relate to feeling a strong urge to escape and avoid instead of dealing with problems. It takes a Herculean effort on my part to rise above that even a little bit. I’m not saying that’s the healthiest response to that situation, but I do to an extent get where Joyce is coming from.
The fact is, if Joyce hopes to move on with her life, to be able to go outside alone, and have healthy, functional relationships, she will need to deal with what happened. Still, I appreciate that process will be far from easy. Billie bringing up what happened in such a blunt and tactless manner, is pretty much the opposite of helpful.
On a slightly different topic, I see Joyce is still staunchly opposed to the theory of evolution. She’s made good headway in regards to homosexuality, but clearly she has a ways to go on other matters. Considering the fact that Willis has described Joyce as autobiographical, I suspect that her we’ll see her asking a lot more questions, and rethinking a lot more long-held beliefs as the comic goes on.
Well, her best friend isn’t a dinosaur
…yet. Dina’s here now
I’m not at all surprised Joyce hasn’t budged on evolution (yet). Remember, the only way she managed to her initial beliefs with accepting her best friend as gay was to look into the Bible passages that are thought to forbid homosexuality and to realise that with proper translations taking historical context into account, the Bible doesn’t actually even say that.
Okay, your mom and Mike…
Billie was attacked, she responded with the truth. If you wanna blame someone for stirring hostility blame Sarah.
Or to put it another way, Billie was criticised, she responded by saying that if Joyce was made uncomfortable by this (and I acknowledge that Sarah and Becky are just assuming she was at this point) those feelings were invalid.
Yeah, “Attacked” is putting it a little overdramatically.
Funny thing is, Pastor John Hagee, one of TV’s most prominent pastors and someone my grandma and I have been watching for is, actually critized the man representing christians (I think his name was Ken Ham) in that debate against Bill Nye.
Even Pastor John Hagee agrees it is idiotic to believe the world is any younger than 7million years old. Can’t find the article about it now, saddly. He was mad at Ken Ham for making Christians look like Ignorant Fools.
The reactions to the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate really allowed us to see who’s agnostic/atheist, who keeps a pretty reasonable faith, and who’s just plain crazy fundie.
Dina: savior of lost souls.
As a little guy once said:
“Wrong Channel!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9QSLNCJHs