Some things!:
1) On Tuesday, the Kickstarter for Dumbing of Age book 5 starts up! That’s tomorrow!
2) This month’s first bonus strip for the Dumbing of Age Patreon features Carla and Galasso!
3) All my socks have holes in them.
Discussion (771) ¬
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Joyce: “damn it, now I have to run away, too”
…
yeah, Carol would die for Joyce, but God forbid Joyce grow up into an independent adult with a mind of her own
Maybe she does think that God forbids it.
Remember, terrifying children’s shows taught Joyce that people are God’s etch-a-sketches.
Shake them really hard and they’ll go poof and be a clean slate! Or end up with a broken neck..
God could have avoided this if he wasn’t so hung up on the concept of free will.
That’s just what he wants you to think.
I’ve never understood how anyone could say anything about God giving people free will while also saying anything on how people should live their lives based off of what He says. I mean, if we have to do what He says, what was the point of the free will?
Picture this.
You’ve been kidnapped. Your kidnapper sits near the door and says you are free to leave whenever you want. You have free will to do that. But if ya do, he’s gonna shoot you. But he feels he’s a benevolent kidnapper because he allows you to leave whenever you want.
On topic, now that I’ve put my foot in it:
Yeah, there’s a perspective that goes, essentially, “I want you to love and worship and serve Me of your own choice, even though I’m an abusive dick. It’s even sweeter that way.”
God as presented in Garth Ennis’ Preacher, basically. Even Mike Carey’s Lucifer comic presented God more sympathetically…
The perspective’s a little unfair. I mean, the doctrine of free will allows a person to act as they wish, but that doesn’t mean that all possible actions will be beneficial. The point of the doctrine isn’t to encourage people to act arbitrarily, it’s to encourage them to think critically, and come up with their own answers to problems, rather than simply regurgitate a solution that worked for one’s great-great grandparent, but has no relevance to today’s world. If God exists, than that has to be what he wants. Why else establish such a doctrine?
That’s all well and good if God didn’t have a hand in what actions are possible and what their consequences are. However, people that believe in the Abrahamic God usually believe that he created the universe out of nothing. He made all the rules. He set up the game, the possible actions, and the consequences of actions. And to top it all off, he set up the game in way that punishes a species that tends to go against his will (i.e. humans).
You don’t get to rig the game against people and then claim to be benevolent.
I can agree with you to a point, but it doesn’t seem like critical thinking is particularly encouraged. A lot of Christians seem to only regurgitate what they’re told without thinking about it or double-checking. Also, I have heard quite a few people argue about how the Bible is God’s word and therefore we must follow what it says. And I’m rather disturbed by the existence of apologetics classes.
The original doctrine was simply that of reward. I’m catholic and in my studies of the early Church, reincarnation was a huge point of contention – what happens if you aren’t going to go to heaven? what happens if you aren’t redeemed? Hell didn’t show up later. I don’t actually know the current Catholic holding on Hell and Purgatory, but the theory that makes the most sense to me is that it’s rehabilitation. If you’re bad, you go to Hell until you have atoned for your sins. Depending on how awful you are on a scale of mother theresa to Lucifer (literally omniscient, would know and understand perfectly that God is the good guy, but decided not to follow God because he’s a bad boy baby) you spend more or less time in a better or worse part of hell until you’ve figured out your hangups and are ready to go to heaven. Makes sense to me and sort of fits with Dante’s philosophy which I believe is a huge part of what Catholics believe about Hell.
So in essence, it’s less “you can leave this room but I’ll shoot you” and more “Here’s a big-ass loan. You can use it for whatever you want. But if you use it on bad stuff like drugs and prostitutes, I’m going to have you forcibly rehabilitated and we’re not going to be friends until you demonstrate that you’ve recovered, and if you use it on good stuff like an education and helping the poor, we’re totally gonna be BFFs and I’ll let you live in my mansion.
My favourite take on religion is from the Rose of the Prophet trilogy, in which there are numerous god(desse)s, and the most fanatical not only praise their god(dess) as the best BUT ALSO curse him/her when s/he is fickle and unduly punishes them.
Anyway, I hate the idea of eternal segregation. If anything, I’m more inclined to believe that Hell is simply the absence of God than a literal lake of fire. Also, I feel like if I were a deity, I’d only “punish” my creations because that’s more interesting than if everything was all hunky-dory all the time.
What is Rose of the Prophet? It sounds really interesting!
Well, except for that pesky bit where the Bibble says you can’t be saved by works alone, but only by the blood of Jay-sus.
In reference to the first part of your post, have you ever read Larry Niven’s Inferno? Because what you said is pretty much the plotline for that novel.
That take makes a little more sense though I do have to correct you on something: Mother Theresa probably isn’t the best person to hold up as the ultimate good for Christianity as by the end of her life she no longer believed in God.
Not to mention actually kind of being an awful person.
So, you’re saying religions postulating a benevolent deity are basically Stockholm syndrome?
The deity illustrated by this analogy is not benevolent.
After reading through the comments, I just want to ask if everyone sitting up here in the bleachers is always 100% honest with your significant others, co-workers, and acquaintances, always standing up for what you yourselves believe is morally right, regardless of the possible personal consequences, when the conversation turns to such things and others express opinions that you disagree with.
(frak. that should NOT be up here, I started and then stopped a comment. Please ignore this one and see the one (far) below on its own thread.)
Good question, though.
I never got that either. I’d always hear “God Gave us free will” but there’d always be talk about converting people to Christianity. It always came off as contradictory to me.
How about this…
You go to your doctor. He/she tells you what you should do if you want to be healthy. You are free to listen to him/her, take the medicines prescribed, eat what’s recommended, get the exercise, sometimes get medical procedures – or you can ignore the doctor. If you do though, you will probably be subject to negative consequences, not because the doctor reached out and slapped you or poisoned you, but because – them’s the consequences. You also cut yourself off from the help they could give you – not because they won’t help, but because they won’t force you to let them help. You have your free will and can cooperate to get good results or can rebel and reap the negative consequences – your choice. The idea of “free will” is freedom to choose your actions, not freedom to choose the consequences. You are free to jump of a cliff but you can’t choose not to be subject to the force of gravity once you do.
Except the “consequences” aren’t simply beyond anyone’s control, but the way God set things up. His choice, that he could change.
As I understand it, theologically the entire point of free will is to allow us to make the choice between serving God and not serving God. All the rest is details.
^^^ this
You don’t get to set up a rigged game and then claim that people are to blame for inevitably failing
You’re talking a different theology than the one I subscribe to then. In the one I subscribe to, it’s more a matter of God serving us – the way good parents serve their children: teaching them, helping them out when appropriate, giving them work to help them develop talents and character, occasionally disciplining them to help motivate them to do what will ultimately help them become better people or avoid bad things, other times holding back and letting them fail when that is best for them and their growth. What should be a natural consequence of what has been provided and recognizing the love and sacrifice that goes into that service, we ought to be grateful. We reverence our parents – honor them, if you will – for what they have done for us. When that includes things like providing a world and a body – and (talking Christian theology here) a way to come back from failure to do what we know we should do (to literally be changed into the person we could have been) through an atonement, we not only reverence, but worship that being. The consequences of being a good person is growth and increased happiness and the opportunity to return to be with the ultimate manifestation of a perfect person. The consequences of being a bad person is to not belong there. In fact to go sit in the presence of such a being knowing we don’t belong because we chose not to would be excruciating. Rather than subject his children to that, he prepares “many mansions” – including not being with him. The “lake of fire and brimstone” hell that some subscribe to is, to my belief, a description of the anguish of facing the knowledge of utter failure when offered the option to change and be a better person; of disappointing a father who loved us and did everything possible to allow us to come back to him (while preserving our free will to chose our path). That’s the punishment we impose on ourselves. That’s the nature of things. God didn’t create the consequences – but he is omniscient in understanding all the consequences and omnipotent in his mastery of obtaining all the good consequences and helping us to do the same.
[climbing down off the soapbox and wandering off into the crowd now]
The thing that’s always bugged me about the free will thing is that I often see God depicted as a being that sees everything that is happening, knows everything that has happened and knows all that will happen in the future. That combined with a lot of mention of His plan makes me wonder how it’s possible to have free will if in reality He knows what you’re going to do in the first place. If the plan only applies to believers and followers of God’s will then that’s one thing, but if nothing we do goes against the plan and everything occurs for a reason beyond our understanding, including the decision to follow the rules depicted in the bible or not, then what is the punishment for?
(Also on a side note I just caught up with the comic a couple days ago. Funny reading the conversations in this comment section. Pleasure to actually meet all of you.)
Welcome aboard! =D You’ll see/have seen a lot of me…
I like the non-religious argument that free will isn’t really a thing because all of our actions are a result of our physical world which was determined by the initial conditions of the universe.
Yeah, God knowing everything that’s to come already just seems off and messes with a lot. Interestingly, in the bible it says God is omnipresent and has plans; never claims he is omnipotent. Which I think makes a lot more sense. Cause if you know all the current variables, you can make a decent prediction of what’s to come. Plans would actually be plans and not predetermined paths.
I’ve always imagined God as like a concerned parent type figure… though with these recent comics let’s use a concerned best friend. “Dude, you should really stop procrastinating on your project, it’s due soon.” Basically trying to offer helpful advice, and help us to avoid pitfalls; but sometimes the only way we learn is by doing and failing. Also it not being God punishing us, so much as our own actions causing harm. “Don’t touch the stove when it’s on, it’s hot and you’ll get burned”
I believe punishment only really comes into play when your actions intentionally harm others. Similarly, I believe that believing in Jesus means believing in what he stood for and not just that he existed.
I feel like much of the modern day church has fallen into the same trap as the pharisees of old. Holding to tradition, restrictions, and rules to gain power and elevate themselves; rather than looking to the meaning and intent of the original. Not to mention the nitpicking of what they actually follow…
Ok, that started to get off topic. Anyway, welcome to the comments.
I don’t think that it is so much as what we have to do, its more that he just showed us the way to do the right thing and the rewards that come with doing so.
It’s not so much that he’s forcing our free will, but that our capacity to MAKE that decision creates a good that would not be there if we did not have that capacity.
think of it like a lion. God COULD have created a lion that did not need to hunt to eat, (like a big steak just appears in front of him when he is hungry) but doing so would not create something that is a lion. Part of the good of a lion is THAT it hunts, so if it was created it without the need to hunt, we would be deprived of the good that is a lion.
But as it stands we’re deprived of the good that is a lion that conjures steak out of thin air, what kind of nonsense tradeoff is this?
The problem really comes in when you introduce punishment. It’s one thing to create something, give it the ability to do wrong, and then reward it for doing good and another to create something, give it the ability to do wrong, and then punish it for doing something you gave it the ability to do.
I was starting to worry about you — your gravatar has been static for so long…
yup, if they believe anything other than what you did you didn’t work hard enough.
But it’ll be another repeat of Becky’s incident! We can’t let Amazi-Girl go through that again!
I heard there were some criminals that said my name?
Amazi-Girl! You’re here! You haven’t replied to my text on our meeting time.
Dammit Wolf, THIS IS WHY WE DON’T LET YOU HAVE A PHONE.
Hoxton, don’t worry! She’s a friend. Opposites Attract, you know.
…Vlad has been calling me a lazy bum these past few days in broken English because you guys were too busy doing THIS these past few days?
That’s right! I’ve been to the Safe House and everything. Quite a mess you have there. Need to fix the holes in the walls, the virtually non-existent ceiling, etc.
This thread is literally Amazi-Girl vs the Insane Clown Posse.
INSANE CLOWN POSSE!!?
I’ll have you note it’s Amazi-Girl meets the Insane Clown Posse. Unless you want to crossover some more…
I’ll have note a few things:
1. That insane clown posse has me, a hitman, and a surfer to the group.
2. Wolf and Amazi-Girl, to the best of my knowledge, have been going out for THE PAST 4 MONTHS. I know, I can’t make this up.
Dallas, I cannot BEGIN to express to you how sad that last comment makes me.
Why?
Because knowing Wolf, it’s almost definitely true.
Someone said my name?
… you’re Heisenberg.
You… STOLE my costume!
You were supposed to say “You’re goddamn right.”
But you guys STOLE my costume!
You’re a lot of fun, you know that?
Blasphemy Ana Chronistic! We all know what happened to Jordan!….and by that I mean nothing at all.
The implications are that Jordan is the rebellious offspring who grew some opinions not in line with the family conditioning and is now Living In Sin.
Just wait until they find out about Jocelyne.
They won’t, if she has anything to say about it
Didn’t Jocelyne say he was “too married” to come to freshman family weekend?
That was John. Jordan was “too Jordan” to come, which implies that Jordan’s sin was a disinclination to visit colleges.
I’d guess less a disinclination to visit colleges and more a disinclination to do anything with abusive family members.
Joyce’s parents are terrified that she’ll become a Green Lantern.
And not a clean-cut, Hal Jordan one, more an artsy, Kyle Rayner one.
Both world be better than an assholish Guy Gardner on.
But… but he’s the Guy!
Oh no.
I’m watching you, you fucking rock.
Haven’t you figured it out? It’s a Soviet spy, duh.
Joyce picks up the rock, and out pops the truck that killed Ruth!!
Hold up…has Transformers ever done a robot that’s disguised as a rock before? Cause to be honest, that makes more sense than cars and trucks.
I know one was disguised as a human chick.
Transformers, probably not. But! GoBots versus the Rock Lords was a thing.
(I had one of those as a kid. Seriously, it was a humanoid robot that folded up into an irregular rock. Do not know what anyone including me was thinking.)
He-Man did.
Kind of. There’s Rock Lords, which show up in Animated, and in the movies Starscream and Optimus both have “comet” alternate modes.
Apparently the whole “Go-Bots” universe has been accepted as another Transformers timeline (something about a company buying rights…), so technically there arerock based transforming creatures, tho apparently their existence causes much debate…
I had a few rock lords as a kid. I actually thought they were pretty cool, in that they did a very good job of disguising themselves as their alt mode, which not all transformers bothered to. And at least some of them made it very clear in their design that they were robots who were using rocks as a disguise (since every part of them that wasn’t alt-mode was visibly robotic) so they just seemed like robots that were super-dedicated to making sure they could hide anywhere, rather than just the places you’d normally expect to find a Ferrari or an F-15 parked.
Plus I suppose I wasn’t the sort of kid who played with their transformers by running around the room saying “vroom vroom” or “woosh woosh”. Different strokes for different prepubescent folks.
“You fucking rock”
Is that an insult aimed at people who believe in fossilization?
Can’t it be a comment on how much someone/something rocks?
I think they prefer the term Mineral-Americans.
What if they’re not from America?
SOON.
OH shit.
Hopefully, here comes the rebellion!
joyce becomes so upset she hops on beckys back, shouts ‘aint got time for you squares’, revs her ears and rides off into the sunset. becky knows shes not a motorcycle but is ok with this temporary arrangement
I don’t care who you are that’s funny.
Anything involving Joyce riding Becky is fine by me.
Actually, Joyce riding anyone is fine by me.
Or even a solo test drive 🙂
Woooooaaah.
Oh man Joyce, think before you act.
And act with integrity.
“Kick your mom in the throat with integrity!”
You misspelled “mom’s crotch around her ears”.
ATOMIC KICK! WITH DISINTEGRITY!
Disintegrate-y?
Yes.
So ready for details on this whole Jordan situation
Oh man, I can’t wait to meet this guy.
And then we meet him and he’s basically Dorothy.
And she seems to think Jocelyn is still a good little drone named Josh.
To be somewhat more fair, that is partially due to Jocelyn doing her best to hide that from her parents.
(Of course, she wouldn’t be hiding that if she didn’t know that her parents would react poorly, so it’s still the parent’s fault.)
The questions this raises are extra frustrating because everyone in the house is aware of who these people are and wouldn’t need an explanation, making it tricky to spell out in-comic. Unless Becky wasn’t filled in on the Jordan incident at the time, fingers crossed.
Joyce has plenty of friends back on campus so all that needs to happen is for one of them to hear about Jordan and go “who’s that?”
Yes, but this weekend is probably going to last until August or so.
“Well as you know, Hank, Jordan became rebellious when [stuff] happened and he [something] in the [thing].”
“Why yes, Carol, I did know that, but I sure do appreciate the reminder all the same!”
nah, that stuff’s easy. You just have joyce’s mom go “I just don’t want another one of my kids ending up robbing a liquor store” or whatever
I’ll guess it’s something “goth” like. Hank saying that they tried to hard with him, and Carol saying they didn’t try hard enough. Your cliche bad boy, if you will, with Hank being aware of what happens if you push someone too hard, and Carol not having any real understanding of the human psyche.
I bet Jordan…………………………………………………………………………….dances.
dances
So this is pretty much going to be a remake of Footloose.
honestly the environment of Footloose was very much like my first high school. it’s weird, twenty years after the movie and nobody got the hint!
*BAPTIST JOKE INCOMING*
A pastor and a woman in his congregation decided to have an affair, but they couldn’t meet up around town because someone might see the two of them in the same place and figure it out. So they decided to do it at church. Yet when it came time to do the deed, the mechanics proved challenging.
“We could do it on the altar,” he suggested.
“Oh no! That would be too blasphemous,” she protested.
“Well, we could do it on the floor.”
“Oh no! the floor would be far too hard and cold!” she protested.
After trying and failing to think of other places, finally the pastor said, “Well, we could do it standing up.”
She looked at him aghast. “We can’t do it standing up! If anyone saw us they might think we were DANCING!!”
*Totally accurate representation of fundamentalist mentality*
How many siblings does this girl have, I’m not going to be able to keep track. They all start with J for goodness sake.
And Carol shows the worst of her. Well done, lady.
Horrible mom confirmed!
At least she didn’t chase anyone around with a gun…
…That we know of…
(Alternately)
…..Yet….
I think you’re being insufficiently pessimistic. It’s quite likely that she has reserves of worse worstness still!
… yes, that was grammatically correct.
god damn it cant you two let them have one nice day
also–20 years ago? john is 20 years older than joyce? ????????
Has John been mentioned before?
i think he was mentioned during freshman family weekend but i cant remember exactly
All three of Joyce’s elder siblings got mentioned, but Jocelyne’s the only one we know much more than a name about.
Thank you for this, I wouldn’t be able to keep track or follow otherwise.
They’re probably thinking back to John’s elementary/middle school years or something.
More likely 8 years older. If he’s 26 he would have started grade school 20 years ago.
Might’ve just meant he was old enough to enter school 20 years ago, which would make him 5 or 6 years older.
John could possibly be just 5 years older than Joyce. I bet he began attending school 20 years ago. Joyce would have been born about two years later.
Aw, man — you all beat me to it!
It doesn’t necessarily mean that John’s exactly 20 years older. Though judging from the preview panels he seems to be in his thirties. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that it’s closer to 20 than 10. Especially since Hank and Carol seem to be pushing 60.
I have no idea what the canon situation is but my current headcanon has, for a while, been that Carol got pregnant in college, possibly after a wild night ‘celebrating’ with Hank after he proposed to her.
This fits into today’s strip thus: John was born only 6 or 7 months after their wedding. There was then a long, long gap until their second child whilst they got their lives together. Then the other kids were all born in pretty quick succession. Joyce, being the child of old age (both Browns being flirting with their 40s when she was born), may have been somewhat spoilt and treated with kid gloves compared to the older kids. This is especially the case if Hank decided that too close control over Jordan led to him doing whatever it is that he did.
My father is ten years older than his next oldest sibling, who are pretty tightly clustered. This is not uncommon. The first is a (hopefully happy) mistake, the rest were better planned, and occurred when they were more financially stable.
I am entertained by the idea that your father has only the one sibling, who refers to himself in the plural and is somehow very tightly clustered all by himself.
Refers to *themselves in the plural
Mm, my friend’s family has her at the youngest (22) and her eldest sibling in his 40s (44ish? I think?). The two in between are a brother who’s 23 or 24 and a sister who’s ~30 (I don’t know exactly, but I think she’s about 8 years older than the youngest).
So that’s an ~14 year gap, then 6-7, then 1, and the youngest is >20 years apart from the eldest.
headcanon: jordan became a unitarian universalist pastor
When I was born, my sister was 19 years old and had finished high school. My mother gave birth to me when she was 41. That’s 28 years ago. Depending on how early Carol had John and how old she was when she had Joyce and how old Carol is now, it is possible.
*Plays some easy listening on a Hacked Muzak across the street*
You always get it wrong, my friend.
Joyce must be really traumatized by this.
You always get it wrong, my friend.
*switches it over to The Who’s “Squeezebox”*
You must be a Master’s tournament Jacket because YOU ARE GREEN.
I’m at the motel across the street with my own, Stephen!
… I do play a killer 9 holes, though.
He beat me and Dragan the other day.
I wish I’d recorded that.
You were there with a recording camera, Hoxton. What are you talking about?
Maybe he’s a fake…
Or maybe it was that fuck Houston before we made him give my damn name back.
I don’t think her dad will side with mom on this one.
He may make matters worse by trying to find a middle ground to keep the peace and just aggravating both sides as a consequence.
Oh, so Hank is just as bad. He just does it behind closed doors. Good to know.
…I rally wish I had personal experience to contradict this, but as a queer woman, yeah, this is exactly what I expected, and I’m just so sad.
I don’t think he’s being fully honest woth Carol right now. I figure he’s just trying to appease her.
Hank is the Neville Chamberlain of the Brown family.
He does strike me as a peacemaker. His personal views are probably a lot more liberal and lenient than his wife’s, but he’s deferred to her in the past on matters of child-rearing, and he’s having trouble opposing her now that the kids are older.
I think we all knew that. But, he has shown he does have decent intentions. He is just not confrontational.
He has to grow a set, and tell Carol that Joyce is staying in college. I’m assuming she doesn’t believe in working outside the home herself. Which means the money is in Hanks hands. If so, he can do it, if he wants to, if it’s important enough to him.
Joyce can go on her own. She can get scholarships and part time work. It will be a setback but she can do it. Shes a marshmellow, but she has a steel core when she wants something.
Becky is Joyce’s best friend. She practically grew up in their home. She loves them as second parents. And her father just held her at gunpoint and abducted her. Carol? Carol wants to throw her out of the house. This person she has known since childhood. And Hank is not….he’s known Becky since she was a kid! She’s Joyce’s best friend! She just went through something traumatic as hell, and he’s not fighting for her.
No one in this scenario ever truly loved Becky, except Joyce.
Strategically, Hank doesn’t need to fight Carol yet. At the moment, he needs to stall for time and try to keep the lid on the explosion until after Becky has left.
Morally, he should fight for Becky right the hell now.
(To be clear, the moral reasoning far outweighs the strategic reasoning, imo. Stop enabling her super-awful BS, Hank.)
I don’t think making a stand here is more important than convincing Carol to not pull Joyce out of college. (If that in fact is what he’s doing.)
Strategy depends on what your goals and priorities are.
Are you trying to avoid a loud scandal?
Are you trying to avoid personally confronting anyone?
Are you trying to stay friends with your wife despite having different views on child-rearing?
Are you trying to protect your child?
Are you trying to protect your child’s best friend?
Are you trying to do the right thing?
Prioritization of different parts of this list leads to way different strategies :>
True, and a good way of looking at it. Hank has to navigate various goals right now. I’m biased because I don’t want a homeless teenager to be his acceptable losses.
I’m also biased and bitter there, coz I’ve learned way too many times that my well-being is lower priority than ‘not creating a scandal’
clearly me crying into a pillow in my room, curled up for hours at a time, is a much more acceptable outcome than an out loud argument, no matter how actually right I am
like, my dad would know that I am actually right, but Gotta Be Diplomatic
like… I understand this line of thought
I’m still very very bitter
I mean, if the way Joyce views marriage is any indication of their relationship, I would think Hank has the final word on whether or not she stays.
Final word, yes. Officially.
But since Carol can passive-aggressively make everyone miserable, it’s not quite so simple. There are all sorts of tactics for manipulating such a relationship.
It’s one of the reasons such arrangements are so toxic. Officially giving one person all the power means the other has to resort to underhanded tactics to have any control at all.
In public, he might. It’s not uncommon however, even in fundie families who believe a wife’s role is to obey her husband in all things, for the wife to actually be the one in control. As long as it’s not seen by the neighbors.
I do need to point out that Hank is criticizing everything his wife is saying, as well as trying to put the brakes on, so he isn’t “just as bad” as Carol. The problem is that he isn’t enough better than Carol.
Yeah. And that’s not good enough. Becky was practically another kid to him, his daughter’s best friend. And he still throws her under the bus, this person who was violently kidnapped, who has /nothing/ but them, at this point. I’m not all that impressed, honestly.
Considering the level of brainwashing that Christianity effectively employs, you’re being much too harsh here. For starters, what makes you think he’s throwing Becky under the bus? It was obvious from his reaction earlier that he still thinks of homosexuality as wrong, but he’s willing to trust his daughter’s judgment. In fact, it’s looking like he trusts his daughter’s judgment over his wife’s, since he’s defending letting Becky stay there despite the “bad influence” of her being homosexual (and before you make any assumptions, there’s a reason that’s in quotes).
I thought Hank did believe that Becky could be a bad influence (ugh), but also that he is appeasing/manipulating Carol with the arguments most likely to succeed, not that he really wanted to kick Becky to the curb. I still hope that he’ll redeem himself by standing up for her properly and clearly before the end of the story, because I’m a naive fool like that. :s
“J-Joyce, I just went a-all out defending you, and -cough- she got to the gun (obviously). Watch out, she’s coming for you and Beck-“BLAM”-Quick, run before she gets you -cough-you too!”
Unfortunately yeah :/ I…wish I was surprised.
I think that’s the saddest part, that we as a community hear shit like this and are just like, “yep, I expected to be treated no better than a cautionary tale” and it’s not a funny t-shirt joke. People who saw you grow up think you deserve to burn in hell.
And we all just nod and smile and move on.
Yup, all of this.
Yep.
Ahahaha
haha
sigh
And yet, it’s turning around, with, frankly, amazing speed. Maybe you’re a little too close to it to be able to see that.
I think the above posters were speaking from personal experience, and saying that doesn’t really mean much. It’s not much of a comfort to hear about how much better society as a whole is doing when your situation with people you were close to hasn’t changed one iota.
Which is kind of what I was suggesting. There’s some lyrics from a song I like which go, “the closer you get to something, the tougher it is to see it”.
I know exactly what you’re saying. I’m saying that what you’re saying isn’t very helpful to people who are close to the subject at hand.
A marginal step-up’s still a step up, but… Yeeeah.
I.. don’t understand ? Hank is defending Becky, even going so far as to having a fight with his wife for her, as we are seeing here. What did he say that was bad ?
He’s not defending Becky, he’s defending Joyce, saying that she’s ‘better than that’, ‘that’ being Becky.
:>
No, that’s not what “that” means in a sentence like that, “that” refers to the action of being swayed by other people, regardless of what anyone might think of them. He also said “stronger”, not “better”.
But the sentence is still being said about Becky in the house. Carol doesn’t want her there and rather than say, “Becky isn’t a bad influence” he said that Joyce is “too strong for that”.
The kindest possible interpretation is that he dodged having to admit that Becky is OK by arguing that it doesn’t matter.
“Carol doesn’t want her there and rather than say, “Becky isn’t a bad influence” he said that Joyce is “too strong for that”.”
That’s exactly why it means that he doesn’t think she is a bad influence, it also means that he is wise enough not to raise a serious argument with his wife about her core values first thing in the morning. Which I would guess is the highest praise of Becky he could possibly give in that situation.
Any attempt to argue that that it wouldn’t be bad if she actually had “turned her gay” (as his wife believes to be a possibility, and therefore relevant) could have possibly led to further abuse against Becky from Carol.
This is damage control we are seeing here.
How about an argument that “turning someone gay” isn’t really a thing?
I mean, I could certainly see it as Hank trying to defuse the argument before it escalates to the level where someone gets hurt. But I could also see it as “Becky is gay, therefore she will attempt to make Joyce fall in love with her, and then Joyce will be gay.” And for one thing, Becky is not trying to change Joyce into something she’s not. For another thing, Joyce is not going to become gay if she is in fact straight (which she is, or at least it’s been implied). The fact they believe homosexuality is sinful is yet another problem, but it’s not the only flaw in Carol’s reasoning that Hank could be attacking.
But it is a tough situation, and so it’s possible Hank is just trying to appease his wife for Joyce and Becky’s sakes. It’s also possible he believes some or all of what he’s saying.
But then, I guess “temptation leads to sin” is a basic Christian dogma. So maybe she’d be even more resistant if he argued against that.
Except that, sadly, that’s very deeply imbedded in their version of the religion. Homosexuality is a sin. Sins are temptations to be resisted. If people are just straight or gay, that doesn’t make any sense.
And of course Becky is trying to turn Joyce gay. That’s what the homosexual sinners do, tempt and recruit innocents.
Carol’s reasoning is internally consistent, just based on flawed premises. To break them down, you have to challenge far more than just that. The belief structure is tightly interwound, which makes it difficult to break down, but it also means the whole thing falls apart if anything breaks. Much like Joyce’s little rant about how evolution breaks everything.
I think Hank knows Carol better than anyone. If I was him, I’d want to choose the arguments that Carol will find palatable but that still gets the most desirable situation to happen. I wouldn’t want to pick the argument that would surely convince her that I’m going to Hell and she and Joyce are next.
There’s truth in that. On the other hand, he knows Joyce well too and may be trying the approach with her that’ll win her trust and bring her back to the fold, without provoking an outright confrontation that’ll just harden her rebellion.
He’s definitely trying to mediate and calm things without openly picking a side and that’s admirable in a way, but I’m not so quick to be sure he’s really fighting the good fight here.
I’m pretty sure, from Joyce’s face, she’s not just reacting not just to her mom’s open bigotry, but to the lack of defense from her dad.
If she believes homosexuality is at all a choice, then she’s justified in thinking Becky wants to turn Joyce gay. Because Becky would very much like to turn Joyce gay.
I wasn’t arguing that this wasn’t damage control, I was pointing out that even the kindest read of what he said still has him not defending Becky and letting his wife think he agrees with her about “those people”.
“still has him not defending Becky and letting his wife think he agrees with her about “those people”.”
No, not even the unkindest reading does this…
He is still defending Becky, and while he lets his wife think that he agrees with her he has not said anything that would lead us to think that he really does. So I would say he isn’t doing a Pontus Pilate here, he’s just using his wisdom in order to defend Becky.
” he is wise enough not to raise a serious argument with his wife about her core values first thing in the morning”
Wise enough? Well, when is it wise to raise a serious argument with his wife about her core values? Is this time ever gonna come? Or is he going to keep ‘wisely’ surrendering his children to abuse forever?
I have zero respect for this sort of wisdom.
Swayed by other people… into being gay… because Becky will try and recruit her…
Because while he is trying he still does implicitly believe in all the scare stories about how homosexuality works that he’s been fed by his religion, he’s also just trying to see her as a human being “as well”. But that’s a legitimate struggle for him, because at the end of the day, he still sees her as something that Joyce is strong enough to overcome (having it corrupt her and drag her to Hell) much like her atheist friend. And he still sees both burning in Hell for all eternity as the “sinners” they are.
” But that’s a legitimate struggle for him, because at the end of the day, he still sees her as something that Joyce is strong enough to overcome (having it corrupt her and drag her to Hell) much like her atheist friend. And he still sees both burning in Hell for all eternity as the “sinners” they are.”
That’s a lot of assumptions there. I’m not saying that they are wrong, we still do not have information/evidence of Hank to disprove that, but there is nothing that proves it either.
“Swayed by other people… into being gay… because Becky will try and recruit her…”
This is definitively what Carol believes, yes, which means that Hank is painfully aware of the fact that his wife believes this, meaning that his wife is expressing concern and he is trying to calm her down.
Answering “So what? If Joyce is gay, it’s none of our business” would lead to a heated argument, and making Carol dig even further into the trenches, before even giving Becky a chance to (maybe) convincing Carol to re-interpret her bible-verses. It might even had lead to her demanding that Becky leave immediately.
If there is no explicit condemnation expressed, I find it better to simply assume the best in all situations.
yeah, going that route means that Carol loses all trust in him I think. which is sort of inevitable, but like…there are no two sides about an issue like this
Well, the other choice is what we’re seeing right now: Crushing the last bits of Joyce’s trust in him.
And after the pretty speech earlier, which just makes it more painful.
i do not know on that score. i mean, like, Becky and Joyce (and Hank) knew it was going to be a fight here. they know Carol a lot better than we do because they’ve all known each other for years. contrariwise Joyce probably knows her dad very well. so, I mean. either this is more of her dad being her dad, or this is more of her mom being her mom for her.
Oh gosh. Gosh dang it. I want to read “Dumbing of Age 2: No Drama and Everyone is Always Happy!”.
I mean, in ADDITION.
The punchline to every comic would probably be Mary getting punched. It’d get old quick.
Hell no, Mary needs a baseball bat to the side of the head.
Willis has tried gag a day no drama, it has never lasted long. Hence the drama tag joke.
I will admit that aliens and global apocalypse were less harrowing than this realistic stuff, even when they were being totally serious.
Oh this is getting good! What better way to make your daughter more like you than to piss her off. Also I really want to meet Jordan now.
Carol killed him a few years back, and successfully pretended that he ran away. The whole family is pretty hush-hush about it to avoid legal consequences; thus the use of “too Jordan” as a euphemism for “too dead” back when they were visiting the campus.
Denial is a river in Egypt!
…. So in It’s Walky!… When Joyce’s mom said all her brothers failed to produce offspring…
You’re saying a lot of stuff happened here too.
I have long wondered about that as well.
Though I seem to recall someone in the comic mentioning John being married (presumably in a heterosexual marriage, otherwise I doubt his father would refer to him as ‘fine’). Then again, marriage does not automatically equal children.
He might be sterile.
Or they just want to be childless.
(or his wife’s the sterile one, I guess)
Also ‘too married’ sounds like a sort of recent thing to me. Usually you don’t rag on people for being married like, years and years later. They might not really have had a chance yet, or be waiting until they’re more monetarily stable.
If that follows in this universe, I mean. Who knows, elsewhere.
between a rock and a hardliner it would seem. also sueezing em till they pop will just make it worse, although satisfying at the time
Ah, Carol is employing the “if you make a mistake, just double down on it” style, I see.
0% of the time, it works every time!
Wait…
Oh shit, I originally read the alt-text as “this was originally the story’s first strip”.
And I thought, *That would have been an AMAZING in media res*.
You’re absolutely right.
I honestly read it the same way too. I had to go and double-check.
As did I.
Me too!
#TeamHank
Hank expressed that he believed Joyce was stronger than Becky, in that she would not succumb to lesbianism or general rebellion. I honestly don’t think he’s that much better.
Its likely the only answer Carol can absorb?
Hmmm. I seem to have read it differently. I read it as Hank not believing having Becky in the house was enough to “turn” his daughter gay – not comparing the strength of the two but more thinking Carol doesn’t want Becky in the house as a temptation to Joyce to “turn gay.”
I know. I’m saying it badly. Basically – not saying Joyce is stronger than Becky but saying Joyce is stronger than the temptation Becky represents in their house.
Which is still pretty bad, because it’s still demonizing Becky as an avatar of sin and rebellion.
I’m not sure I see the meaningful distinction between the two, both are about her being “stronger” than the “gay homosex virus” Becky “represents” instead of being just a person who happens to be gay.
No, both is about her being stronger than “swayed by other peoples opinions”, maybe to Carol Becky may represent a “gay homosex virus”, but Hanks dialoge does nothing of the sort.
Of course you’d want your daughter to be “strong” and not let other peoples opinions, wills, lifestyle, etc., make her repress her OWN ones.
Switch it around, make Joyce the lesbian, and Hank would still say his daughter is too “strong for that” if Anti-Carol were to say that Becky would try to “straighten her up”.
That doesn’t mean he thinks it would be BAD for that to happen to Joyce, only that he recognizes that his wife, whom he probably loves, thinks so, and acknowledging that people aren’t really “turned” anyway.
Which brother is the one we’ve already met? (Least spoiler-y way i could think to phrase this question)
I was just about to ask the same question…
Oh hey its your icon, too.
Joshua/Jocelyn
Not a spoiler…well, except to Hank and Carol.
Or maybe just Carol….
Probably both Hank and Carol.
She might be out to her brothers, but they’re keeping it a secret from Joyce in case she turns out like their mother.
(That’s a poorly worded guess, of course. If I could predict the future or read the author’s mind I wouldn’t spoil anything here. At least not for free…)
The preview panel had Joc looking happy driving with… one of the others, and I was hoping that meant that one was supportive of her, or at least open enough that Jocelyn doesn’t feel the need to conceal herself as a whole, as she does with her parents
I googled it and figured it out! I would recommend it. It makes this strip better.
Jocelyn is the sister we met. Her mother still only knows her as Joshua.
That would be Joshua, http://www.dumbingofage.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/joshuabrown.png
Ah dangit I see I am slow to answer as always.
We have met Jocelyne (mentioned in strip as Josh), who will be returning this storyline. We are going to meet John soon too, as they were both seen in a preview panel.
We’ve met Jocelyn (who Carol & hank still refer to as Josh).
eeeh.
So…do these two have any kids that are meeting their religious standards?
Really, that should probably indicate a flaw in their system.
I can’t see anything wrong about Josh!
Or Jocelyne.
But the “Josh” persona is still exemplary of a “good Christian,” even if it’s just smoke and mirrors.
I think John’s married? Probably a sign that he’s at least playing along with what they want of his life.
Yes, the one who went to public school.
oh boy, here we go.
Yep, I went to public school and I’m fine.
Joyce does look like Benji in the morning.
Jeez, so they “didn’t squeeze hard enough” with Jordan, and therefore are going to try to squeeze harder with Joyce? Yeah, that’s going to end well.
They need to squeeze and squeeze until all the red comes out, leaving only pure whiteness, unstained by sin.
Like a desiccated corpse, or a grapefruit, or a zit.
…and THERE’S the other shoe!
I’m pretty sure the other shoe dropped when Carol greeted Becky the night before by blaming her for the Gunman’s actions.
I like to think it dropped between comics in the form of Becky’s request for more mac and cheese being denied.
Maybe Carol’s just dropping more shoes, like they’re bombs. Christianity bombs.
This is the freakin’ Coventry of other shoes!
At least it isn’t Canturbury.
We have shoefall. Repeat, we have shoefall!
This situation has more other shoes than Imelda Marcos. Or a centipede. Or a centipede Imelda Marcos.
So, an all-Marcos family human centipede?
She had thousands of pairs of shoes, so that’s going to be really gross.
Nope, it’s still winding back.
🙁
Welp. Hank is a lovely person to one’s face, and I don’t think anyone would dispute that he’s better than Carol…but after that, I can’t really call him a good person. Like…argh, I’m having a hard time articulating this since it’s been a bad brain day, but this calls all his acceptance of Becky into question. He still thinks of her as Bad, at the end of the day, just not Bad enough to seduce Joyce away from being the Good child of the light of etc etc so on.
Yeah, he’s been good for a fundamentalist so far, but he’s still pretty awful for a person in general. Any time Becky’s been brought up so far, his reaction has been tolerence, not acceptance.
You know, I don’t think that’s entirely fair. Given the world that he and his wife appear to live in, tolerance from is something of a miracle. These kinds of people are basically raised from birth with a very specific set of beliefs, and are taught that deviation from those beliefs isn’t just wrong, it’s evil.
The fact that he is nice to Becky, that he let her come along, that he wants her and Joyce to still be friends? The fact that his wife is saying these awful things and he’s disagreeing with her, is akin to denying a fundamental aspect of his worldview.
Give the man time to adapt.
That’s absolutely a fair reading of the situation, and as soon as he gets there I’ll welcome him into the fold of good-person-ness with open arms, but the fact remains that he is just not meeting the minimum objective standard right now.
I dunno. I like to think that if I found myself in the position he’s in here I’d be derailing things by at the very least pointing out a few assumptions that might need revisiting. (Seduced by unbelievers and lesbians? Emotionally squeezing adult offspring? Carol has a lot of assumptions that need revisiting.)
And do either fully recognise Joyce’s strength? I love that we’ve seen Hank recognise and affirm her independence (which is a trait he could definitely be better deploying here), but this is a full-grown woman who organised a motorcycle rescue against a gunman. It saddens me that they’re not seeing that side of her and freaking delighting in it.
(This strip’s also of brought to mind a passage of Bujold’s where the Vorkosigans are overheard discussing their offspring, and the head-spinning integrity the two of them showed. Joyce should have parents like Aral and Cordelia, but then again so should everyone who’s short-changed in the parents department.)
Everyone should have parents like Aral and Cordelia, but alas, they are rare exceptions. The rest of us just have to do the best we can.
Have you read “Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen” yet, by the way? There’s an interesting perspective on Aral and Cordelia’s marriage.
Oh, it is deeply awesome and I didn’t see any of it coming.
(except for Miles’ befuddlement, mebbe)
Sadly, those types of religions see nothing to celebrate when a woman demonstrates strength, because such violence and action is not her “sphere”, but the actions of a man and should have been performed by Becky’s rightful husband. And instead, Joyce is showing signs of getting “confused about her gender role” in the presence of the lesbian proving that the “homosex conversion” is happening and Joyce is “failing to be strong enough to resist it and be wavering in her faith”.
Agreed. It’s kind of irritating how many people fail to realize just how far off their idea of a “person in general” is. I read a story once which involved people being born with telepathy and having to be locked up (on what is effectively a prison planet) because they went literally psychotic due to the disconnect between what people say and what they actually think.
Yup. And that’s the knife edge that tolerance always leans on. Oh, sure, they’ll try hard to your face, but off where they think you can’t hear them, where it’s really important for them to stand up for you? Often it’s another story.
Hank is trying. That’s important. But not enough to genuinely push back against his wife in a meaningful way.
That’s how I’m reading Hank too. He’s genuinely bothered by Becky’s orientation and Dorothy’s atheism and Jocye’s more and more outspoken free-thinking, but he just happens to be a decent person with a certain amount of trust in his daughter.
Not enough to do something like This though
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
He has decades of hatred & intolerance to overcome. I don’t know of any real world examples where people whole world view and turn on a dime. It takes time, and given the difference in time passing for us versus in-comic, at least give the guy a few months. I do believe Joyce’s views have changed, and it’s taken, what, years from our perspectives? And she was less ingrained in the belief structure than her parents.
He also may not be willing to just throw away his marriage, which is what ‘fessing up to being a “liberal Christian” would amount to. Some men will do things they find repugnant in order to avoid divorce.
He hasn’t shown any evidence of thinking of her as “bad”, not even a little bit, in this strip so far.
Yeah, I’m thinking this is a “picking your battles” decision. He knows that Carol
cannot be convinced that Becky is a good person, so he is arguing a different tack.
I suspect Hank has had to pick his battles a lot.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/humility/
“Becky was a good kid. And if you think so, then I trust you that she still is.”
He doesn’t view Becky as a “good kid”. However, he sees that Joyce does and so is willing to try and see her that way as well. That’s a good major important step, not dismissing that, but where he is in his development, he very much still sees Becky as a “bad kid” and a “worrying influence” even if he’s decided that the Lord is guiding his hand to trust his daughter and her “strength”.
yeah…it’s really hard to detox all of that junk in one step, it’s a process
There is a different reading of that kine, though. Hank deliberately calls Joyce a woman in that conversation, as an attempt to acknowledge her as an adult maybe the stress isnt upon good but on girl. He might be attempting to give Becky the same credit for adulthood that he’s givin Joyce.
eh. see, part of that whole thing is Hank acknowledging other people’s freedom to make choices different from his. and that’s part of becoming an adult. and I think in that moment Hank has found it difficult to reconcile the sweet kid Becky he knew with all the stereotypes of gay people he’s heard his entire life. and at no point do I think that he thinks she ever deserved to be kidnapped at gunpoint by her father.
but like gay people are quite literally a mystery to fundamentalists, I think. it’s hard to make the leap to “like straight people except interested in the same gender”. the cognitive dissonance is immense. as is, i’d guess, the cognitive training? we do a lot of gender roles brainwashing to our kids.
and, i mean, white culture has traditionally been very centered around sending out children who are exactly the same as their parents and grandparents. it’s one part narcissism one part fear one part just…lack of empathy, I think.
Your quote LITERALLY says that he thinks Becky is still a “good kid”. Are you actively trying to find flaws in him ? Because I think any character can be construed to be “bad” if you search long enough, and fill out the space between every line.
Can anyone list all the J-siblings in order and tell me which one we’ve met/seen? I’m on slow free wifi and can’t check the archives.
John
Jocelyne
Jordan
Joyce
We’ve only met/seen the ladies thus far.
john, jordan, jocelyne (josh). jocelyne’s the only one weve met so far
im assuming jordans the 2nd born, but im not sure
I’m not sure what strip mentions it, but Joyce said Josh (Well Jocelyn, but as to what Joyce knows…) is the middle of the three brothers.
i forgot about that
i had been assuming joyce and jocelyne were closest in age cause joyce mentioned her when talking about childhood toys once (though i guess that was just because the punchline wouldnt work if it was jordan)
Ahh I see it in a higher post. Jonathan, Joshua/Jocelyn (the one we met) and Jordan. So John = Jonathan? And I so want to know more about Jordan…
TALKABOUTYOURSIBLINGSDAMMITJOYCEINEEDEXPOSITION
Wow I need to refresh my page sooner, thanks guys!
Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck
Also, how many kids do these people have?
Quiverfull, a quiverfull.
They fucked only three times
😀
Then… where’d they get the fourth kid?
Twins.
Immaculate conception. Jocelyne is the Daughter of God.
Well obviously Jocelyne is immaculately conceived. She’s trans like Jesus.
http://nonadventures.com/2015/10/24/the-blast-supper/
Time to go far away Mrs. Brown, far away to say…. a black hole.
Can’t wait for Joshua’s coming out and her realization that she “fucked up” with another child too. I hope she’ll forever blame herself for her son being trans.
Go Jocelyne.
Unfortunately, Jocelyn is far more likely to suffer from the slings and arrows coming from the nasty piece of work that raised her than said piece of work feeling bad about losing children by being abusive.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Jocelyne is building up emotional strength because she knows the day she comes out is the day she loses her family as she knows it. Maybe she gains a Jordan, maybe a Joyce, and who knows, if she’s lucky a John and Hank, but she will never again have her mother even pretend to love her and she will never again be welcome back in the house while her mother lives there.
“but she will never again have her mother even pretend to love her”
Unfortunately, from what we’ve seen so far, I imagine that’s ALL her children ever got, pretend love. Might be better off not having to reciprocate fake gestures of “motherly” love, which the adults would’ve picked up upon by now.
She seems to be aware enough of her circumstances that I can’t see her coming out until she has a place to stay lined up. Preferably having moved her most valued possessions out quietly without them noticing, because she might not have time to pack.
That’s what happened to a friend of mine. She was *driven* out of the house by shouting and screaming after she told her parents she was trans , and a few days later two of us went over (without her) to get them give us her stuff.
Her mother was in the process of packing up everything her ‘son’ owned to throw away, in fact, and basically threw it at us and demanded we never come back either. I’d known this woman since I was seven, and the venom she spat at us was…genuinely frightening. So that was fun.
*hugs* And yeah, that’s the sort of shit Jocelyne is building up for.
Though she has clearly been making plans… I dunno, this might be the weekend she tries to reach out by coming out to a few of her siblings as practice. Say, the sister who recently stood against the family on behalf of her lesbian best friend.
It happened to a friend of mine as well. Not for being trans or gay, but she essentially was “disrespectful” too many times. So, she went to class(she’s 19, in college, and working part time. Straight A student.) the day after a huge fight with her mother about her (completely respectable) boyfriend and came home to the locks changed and her entire family ignoring her calls(dad, mom, two younger brothers and a younger sister).
Turns out the family dynamic is one that only works when there is someone everyone hates. It was her older sister originally, who eventually left and cut ties with most of them at 17. Then it was good for awhile. Then it was her turn, but because she was in school and her parents were paying for it, she wasn’t going to leave. So they forced her out.
She did manage to get her stuff, though. She stayed with her older sister a few days some time after that and during that time her mother invited her sister over for dinner. The sister said yes, on the condition that she could take my friend’s stuff back with her. The invitation was withdrawn, and her stuff was left boxed up in the front yard.
Yeah he
Thankfully, I was never actually kicked out. But the threat was always there if I breathed even a whiff of a hint of rebellion. It’s nerve-wracking to be always living under the threat of abandonment. Everything is conditional.
But I was the scapegoat kid for a long time. It sucks.
WOW JUST….reading your friend’s story I’m still in shock because I really can’t grasp the logic of that kind of people like your friend’s parents!!!
I thought it was mentioned Jocelyn had already moved out of her parents’ house and was working as a writer? Though perhaps she’s waiting for things to stabilize financially before she comes out so she’s not at Hank and Carol’s mercy in an emergency.
It takes a lot to accept you don’t have family any more. And it’s a major financial risk especially in this economy. Most people after a bad spell or escaping an abusive relationship can run back home as a final safety net. Jocelyne in coming out knows she would be losing that last safety net and know that any misstep will simply lead to her being another homeless trans woman statistic. And so is probably hoping she can hold on to the closet long enough to establish some form of stability.
I certainly don’t hope she forever blames herself for her “son” being trans. its not really fair to her daughter… If she always blames herself, she will never fully accept that Josh has always been Jocelyn, and never fully accept her as a woman.
Honestly, do you believe Carol is even capable of accepting any of her children, or any other humans for that matter ?
UhOh. This doesn’t look good
And, to be fair, neither the unbeliever nor the lesbian have successfully seduced Joyce yet. Though Becky gave it a shot, and Dorothy seems to be seriously considering it.
Oh, like we didn’t know this was gonna happen. Maybe she and Becky can share an apartment. There are student loans, y’know and she is of age to be out on her own. Dina’s gonna be a tad PO’d though.
Joyce, Dina and Becky could afford a nice apt. 🙂
Oops, sorry, I hadn’t refreshed my page when I wrote that, so I didn’t see your comment.
Maybe Dina can share with them.
Can you get those if you have parents? My understanding had always been that people under 25 whose parents don’t want to pay for them to go to college are kind of screwed.
Its an interesting piece of logic for Willis to solve.
If joyce gets taken out of college then thats the end of the strip.
financial aid is generally based on your own ability to pay for school and your needs, not your parents. last i checked, anyway. i qualified even though im still legally a dependent
unless you meant an apartment, which rereading it you ould have.
i dont know about that.
It seems to depend on the state then because where I live it’s a combination of my income and theirs. Last year we had to go through hoops because my parents don’t qualify for unemployment and haven’t worked within a certain span of time to have W2’s.
I’m pretty sure you can get loans. If not, there’s definitely scholarships and grants.
It’s definitely hard to get even the loans with parents who are unsupportive, because parents’ income is always counted against you when applying for loans (until 25) even if they have completely disowned you or are unsafe to contact.
It tends to really fuck students who really need to scramble for comprehensive loans to stay in school because their parents have disowned them, not that I have any personal experience helping students deal with that particular horror show or anything…
This was me. It is nearly impossible to go to school if your parents make decent money and don’t support it or you. By the time I was able to not have to rely on my parents income to go to school, I was to far along in my career to even consider it. I didn’t get a degree until I married a university employee who was able to provide the opportunity to me for practically free. (Which to my chagrin is awfully close to my mother’s admonishment that if I wanted to go to college I needed to ‘marry a rich man pay for it’)
This is why I have to put up with my folks for years into adulthood. And tough to explain to people that, no, I really can’t afford to stand up to them because it would put me life and career on hold for a decade.
Like, the flip side of having well off folks is abusive parents can control you until 25 and everyone winds up being victim-blaming douchecanoes about it because “you’re an adult, you don’t have to take this. Just get loans!”
Where I live (BC) it’s based on both your and your parents’ income*, unless you get a lot of proof that they’re not really ‘parents’ to you (a friend had to help her younger brother with this), or get married (in which case spouse’s income is relevant instead). I’d also say ‘unless you’re legally emancipated,’ but I mean, it applies even if you’re not a dependent the rest of the time, so that might not even count.
*parents’ income is no longer considered necessary by the time you’re four years out of high school, also known as around the time many/most people have finished or are near finishing their bachelor’s and have already lived away from home for four years.
My first and second year spring terms both almost didn’t happen and could have left me with regular debt (since there’s a time limit to pull out and get money back/not have to pay), because my parents fucked up their end of the forms. I also had my low income grant lowered by a third because my mom started making more money, even though they were not giving me any school money (they gave me money to buy my own groceries while I visited them, and my mom gave me my first rent deposit, which was returned to her when I moved).
Meaning, also, it’s probably easier for Becky [to get loans] than Joyce if Hank folds. “My mom is dead and my dad is in prison for kidnapping me, assaulting and attempting murder on my friends, and probably something about firing a gun at a school,” is a clearer reason and easier to back up with paperwork than “they don’t approve so they won’t give me money.”
I hope they’ve found a nice boy for her to marry. These days, he’ll need a lot of advance notice to find enough goats and camels to pay the bride price. After all, I’m sure Carol will damand a “traditional marriage.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a “nice boy,” the son of one of their fellow church members, who they wouldn’t mind seeing Joyce marry.
Who knows, maybe he’s even the son of a pastor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp4339EbVn8 comes to mind.
Things could get really interesting if Carol introduces the preacher’s son from a neighboring congregation and it turns out to be “you know who.” On a side note, I loosely use the word “man” to describe said person.
He’d need to go through the proper parental interviews and “dates” supervised by her parents before they’d consider it.
He’s probably been through the interviews and training to be a “proper” husband. As fir the dates, history is full of brides who never met their husband before the wedding.
Yeah, but Joyce’s mother seems the type to encourage “courtship” with parental supervision to ensure they never actually kiss before the wedding.
I did not think I could hate Joyce’s mother more BUT I WAS WRONG
You didn’t? Better buckle in, she’s sure to get worse.
Yeah, this. She can be – and will be – so much worse. Just wait until she starts jerking Joyce around emotionally. She will have Joyce fucked up but good.
Well you can’t spell smother without mother.
Also, the babies ate holes through your socks, did they Willis?
Wait, what’s the Brown children birth order/age range? Do we know this??
John, Jocelyne (mentioned here as Josh), Jordan, Joyce
Unless they’re hiding another child somewhere
JoJo.
But he’s off on a Bizarre Adventure in Egypt right now, so we don’t get to see him.
:0
all the browns are jojos you just blew my mind
So what’s Joyce’s Stand?
And based on a Patreon bonus strip, it seems like Jocelyne, Jordan, and Joyce are all relatively close in age (within 5 or 6 years of each other), whereas John is considerably older (he looked teenager when Joyce was not yet born, so probably in his 30s.
Joyce is the youngest. Jocelyne’s the “middle brother”, which makes her second-oldest. I’m gathering from this strip that John (Jonathan?) is the oldest, which leaves Jordan to be third.
See-sawing between worrying for Joyce and despisingly hissing at Carol.
Apparently so much so that I misspelled my own username..
At least the typo resulted in something fitting.
Why not both?
Panel responses:
Panel 3: Joyce Brown, faster than a speeding lesbian, able to leap over bisexuals with a single bound…
Panel 4 (1): As did the both of you… to the same university. Jus’ saying.
Panel 4 (2): Yeah, taking her out of school totally worked to ensure Becky didn’t “become” a lesbian or something like that… oh wait.
Panel 5 (1): Oh shit, that pause right after Jocelyne’s dead name just says so much. Jocelyne must have shown some signs of being trans or said something that revealed her dysphoria and they responded by pulling all their kids out of school and teaching her how to hate herself. That’s just so heart-breaking.
Panel 5 (2): Um… is anyone feeling that the whole “Jordan” thing isn’t as “he’s very Jordan but we still love him” as Hank first let on?
Panel 6: Of course she thinks she isn’t squeezing enough, because that’s the universal authoritarian response to one’s “property” not knowing its place. Oh, is it being disrespectful, is it speaking out of turn, and befriending people as if they were human beings? Well, show it its place and give it less love and of course it will cease rebelling.
Like, fuck, she’s already opened up by not showing one whit of care for her or sign she is grateful that she is alive when she yanno, almost died thanks to someone “squeezing” as much as you can possibly “squeeze”, an action that did not “save” Becky, mind you. On top of that, she’s openly antagonized Joyce’s friend, a friend who Joyce has already said she’ll fight for.
Yeah, that’ll work…
Sadly, though, that face from Joyce reveals the more pressing threat. That a threat of removal may leave her just as homeless and without support as Becky and with quite a conundrum about how to keep paying for an IU education.
“We love him as he is our child but we’d love him ever so much more if he came back to the embrace of the Lord” I bet
Yeah, atheist is the possibility that most speaks out to me, but that whole “Jordan is too… Jordan to come” that Jocelyne mentioned way back in the Parent’s Day saga makes me think that there’s more than a little bad blood as well:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/undeclared/
I think the other Brown children don’t actually have a lot of direct knowledge about what is going on with Jordan. They have a really dumbed down whitewashed “He’s just being an unreasonable sinner” version of events. And Jordan eith won’t correct it, or isn’t allowed to. Placing bets on the fact that Hank and Carol have gone out of their way to ensure their other children haven’t seen a lot of Jordan since he became “too Jordan.” Especially in an unsupervised setting.
The way Hank jumped up during the “Joyce is hanging out with an atheist?!” debacle and turned what was going to become a loud argument into a passive aggressive prayer circle means I’m willing to bet all internal conflict gets “handled” in a similar way. A combination of watered down explanation(downplaying Carol’s antagonism, which Hank has been passively enabling for pretty much their entire lives), biblical quotation, isolation, and outright denial.
…it’s awful, but Hank’s strategy worked. like, I’ll take passive aggression over aggressive aggression any day of the week.
…having lived through a ton of aggressive aggression, passive aggressiveness is super hilarious to me now, because, like, being bitter and spiteful and nasty won’t kick me out of my home or throw a fork at me.
Jordan too Jordan makes me think disowned but kept quiet from the other kids. Blame the one you kicked out for their exile and all that.
I kinda wonder if Jordan was the one who always asked inconvenient questions about, like, science and ethics and God. took things to their eventual conclusion. I wonder if he and Joyce share their intellectual honesty.
I’m thinking Hank’s method of dealing with Carol is a combination of cajoling and appeasement. But he’s self aware enough to realize that always being hard line like Carol means they will get shut out, even if he agrees with her on a lot of things. He’s the Buffer Parent, dulling all of Carol’s sharp edges.
Shit this wasn’t supposed to be a reply.
I don’t know. I usually agree with your panel-by-panel interpretations, but to me, Panel 5 (1) seems more like Hank cutting off/interrupting Carol’s sentence with his “All I’m saying” than an actual pause after mentioning Jocelyne.
Jordan being too…Jordan + what’s said here also makes me think also that maybe he got tired of the whole “FAAAAAAMILY” thing that this kind of parenting tends to create (you know, how you’re supposed to put up with everything and perform your assigned familiar role at the drop of a hat because they’re your FAAAAAAMILY) and doesn’t like to be around for family stuff anymore, so he lives by himself/away from the rest of them and might only make an appearance once or twice a year, if that.
Agreed – I think the dialogue between Carol and Hank before Jocelyne is mentioned is key here: “John went to public school and he’s fine/ that was twenty years ago. By the time Josh was born-“.
Carol’s words read to me as her saying “Twenty years ago public schools taught respectable Christian values. Now they teach children all kinds of corrupting liberal propaganda, and putting Josh* and Joyce [their two youngest children] through that system will expose them to that”. I think that’s what the discussion here is about, and I suspect Hank the break in Carol’s speech was Hank interrupting, not a pause. I don’t think Hank and Carol are in any way clued in to Jocelyne’s true gender, though I may be wrong.
*As I’m interpreting Carol’s words here, I’m using the name she thinks of when talking about Jocelyne.
‘Josh’ is the second oldest. Jordan is the one closest in age to Joyce. (Though I believe the three youngest children are all closer in age than they are to John.)
(And on an unrelated note, I love your name.)
I can’t make up my mind about her face in the last panel, actually.
You mentioned one big possibility: “Oh crap my schooling is in jeopardy.” But some others immediately sprang to mind:
“Wait, Jordan AND John? Just how dysfunctional IS my family? Why have I never heard about this?”
“My parents are the most micromanaging manipulative bastards ever, and I’m their target, and I NEVER KNEW IT.”
“Wow I really HAVE fallen THAT far from my old standards? Uh… that’s bad! I think it’s bad? EXISTENTIAL CRISIS AHOY!”
“Yeah, I thought maybe we could sail through this weekend okay, but it looks like I’m going to have to stand up for my best friends to my parents after all… Oh I am SO dreading that.”
“Holy crap my parents are the biggest bigots ever HOW DID I NEVER NOTICE THIS BEFORE?”
My first read on Joyce’s face was more like “No! I’m never going to see my friends again! ”
Which, considering that these are the same people who have helped her through some of the most traumatic experiences of her life, would probably just break her heart and make her stand up for what SHE believes in.
But these are all very interesting reactions too. I could see them all going through her mind at once.
Guess I’d better brace myself for the ride.
everything about this situation is terrifying and awful for joyce rn
If Joyce is anything like I was (and thus far she has been), then that face means something quite different. That face means “I have caused my parents heartache and worry. I AM A BAD CHILD.”
Do not underestimate just how badly this kind of fundamentalist child abuse brainwashes people into self-loathing.
Got to say, I don’t see the same thing in 5 (1). The reference is to when she was born and seems to be about schools changing. I don’t think they know or even suspect anything about Jocelyne.
They probably saw some potentially girly behaviours in early childhood and stomped them out. Joyce once mentioned that they always made sure she got dolls and her “brother” got trucks. They probably think their strategy worked, to resolve “his” “confusion”.
It’s certainly possible. One of the Patreon strips shows they were there – even before Joyce was born, she wanted to be Jocelyne.
But I really don’t see anything in this strip to call it out. It reads much more to me like “public schools had changed by the time she was born” than “after the weird girly behavior”.
Agreed.
Oh man I wish I could afford patreon just for that even.
Minimum’s only a dollar a month. You don’t get the previews, but you do get the bonus strips.
if I started I’d probably want to do QC and maybe another and soon that’s ~$5/month, and then some are over $1 for most content, so although part of me wants to say ‘$12? Yes!’ the rest thinks I shouldn’t get on that slope
So…is Jordan gay, or did they convert, or what? Like, I’m really curious about who Jordan is, and what they did to deserve to be “that” child. (I imagine after Jocelyne feels safe to be who she is, her and Jordan play the “Which one of us is Mom and Dad more disappointed in this Christmas” game.
He’s an internet pornlord. 😉
I don’t know enough about the pre-Shortpacked Walkyverse to know if you’re just being funny or serious. Either way, I got a laugh out of it.
If I remember correctly, in the Walkyverse he was some flavor of mad scientist, but I may be confusing him with another brother.
David Willis has to stop inserting himself into these characters.
Because writers in the past have never, ever had characters possess some of their own traits 😉
Yeah but does EVERY character have to be good looking?
wink
Please notice me Willis Senpai.
He can’t..because babies.
David Willis has to stop inserting himself into these characters.
Too tired to have an immature laugh about the way this was phrased.
i’m not!!
It’ll be interesting if Jordan turns out to have converted to some liberal brand of Christianity.
“They let women into the pulpit there, Jordan! Women!! Speaking!! Being heard instead of seen!!!” *clutches pearls, swoons*
No, make that a scientist specializing in evolution. Because even a liberal Christian is still a Christian according to my fundie sister.
Hey, us liberal christian evolution-believing biologists exist, too!
*applauds*
There are dozens of us! Dozens!!
You know those aren’t mutually exclusive, right?
he became…a Methodist. *shock, horror, ladies swoon in the street*
He probably just told Carol where to stuff herself.
Or just broke off contact with her.
Carol was worried that Joyce would think she was embarrassing, like her other kids apparently did…
or, y’know, she turned her children’s actual reactions to her into embarrassment.
So, Carol is being a massive bongo. Who’da thunk.
Such a massive bongo that she’s become a teiko drum.
So now Joyce and Becky run off to Jocelyne’s apartment, yes?
Ok so…. Now we know something went or is going on with Jordan… Joyce is probably about to have a very hard scene of stealing the car…
Anyone else think there will be a disowning? Like…. “If you go back to that school, you can consider yourself not part of this family” or something? Such loving people are so hateful…
It’d be the “Christian” thing to do in their twisted ass viewing of it.
My theory is Carol will try something like that and Hank will finally get angry enough to directly countermand it.
Also, they’re probably not going to yank her to Anderson, because that’s where Becky “got all gayified”, which leaves, what?
Shopping her around to “good church boys” to marry her off to?
Oh, fuck, Carol is going to spend Sunday shopping her around to the church boys isn’t she?
Sadly, a few months ago, Joyce probably would have loved that, seeing as how all she wanted in life was to get married to a good church boy. But hopefully now she wants more for herself
It’s been about five weeks since school started. So just over a month.
I think that’s where we are in the timeline, anyway.
But doesn’t she need to have some kind of college education so she can homeschool her kids?
Is it worth her eternal soul though?
At least that’s the “logic” that Carol is operating with.
Yes, being in college allows her the best chance to snag her mister while completing her Mrs and being an even more capable homeschool teacher for her 4.5 children, but, if Joyce loses her soul along the way and gets converted by wild demonic atheist lesbians, then all that would have been for naught. So, better to have her come home now so as to spare her being “lost” to the “demonic ways” once and for all.
For some reason, the wording here makes me think of demonic atheist lesbians as a species of Pokemon.
“A wild Demonic Atheist Lesbian appeared!”
“Oh crap. I’m fucked. Why did I choose Wavering Christian Apologist as my starter?”
“Demonic Atheist Lesbian used LICK! It’s Super Effective!”
The only double entendre attack I could think of, but there’s no follow-up…
Sigh, today is not my day for humor.
there’s also Notre Dame… and lots of super christian colleges in the states. (i don’t like Notre Dame)
Notre Dame is Catholic though, which would be a no-no for the Browns.
Wouldn’t that be tainted by Catholics?
Joyce just dosn’t seem to swing that way. Her parent(s) don’t understand that it is not at all a personal choice.
The fundies I’ve known (3 familes over the years), they can’t hear that you are born to be what you are. It’s heresy and everyone knows it’s a choice. Beat it out of the kid, they will walk the ‘straight and narrow’.
So her mother believes that being gay is ‘catching’ or something, and her father may or not. I think Hank made a genuine effort to accept Becky as she is now. He just hasn’t the balls to stand up to his wife. So far anyway.
He is trying to appease her now. Hopefully, he will put his foot down I really hope.
Weeellllll…..
At least Hank is still a good father.
If Carol’s uneasy about Becky, just wait till she learns about the Zhenyuanlong Suni…
Long feathers! Looong featheeers!
Damn you, Willis!
I kinda want to meet John to see if he’s not actually up their standard of “fine” and just hiding it well. That would please me. Of course he could also be just like carol and that would be pretty sad.
He could be more like Hank – a true believer, but not an asshole. Perhaps one day we’ll find out.
what if he has 4.5 children and joyce is already an aunt
Well, of course all yours socks have holes, Willis, how else would you get your feet into them?
Valid question.
“Oh what’s that Mrs. Brown? You wanna take a shot at squeezing a student in Amber’s dorm building? Go right ahead. I hear the IU Health Bloomington Hospital parental dumbasses ward is accepting new members to their book club.”
Is what I’d say if I’d not seen the collateral damage that happens when Amazigirl feels like she needs to take steps. It’s not at all amusing anymore. Until Amber’s seen some therapy, for the literal love of all that is holy, Carol, don’t go that other way.
Amber: Finally, someone who isn’t a dad!
Unfortunately in her ancient, more liberal past Carol earned a black belt in Shito Ryu karate, which may be enough to counter Amazi-girl’s acrobatics/parkour based style.
The problem is when you’re talking about a comic whose fictional universe is explicitly stated to be a tangent reality to the rest of Willis’s work I have no idea whether or not you’re kidding.
Fuck this crazy world, lol.
Honestly, I’m not it would be enough. Don’t stick it in crazy, and don’t get stuck in with crazy.
The shoe’s… lowering on Hank with that “stronger than that” remark (because being queer is totes just a temptation you have to be “stronger” than! /s) , but it’s not quite at “full dropping” point yet.
He’s still the nicest, most reasonable, and most likable of the fundie parents we’ve seen so far, but given his competition for that title is Ross and Carol, that’s… not really a high bar to reach.
That aside, fuck Carol. For serious, she is just… eurgh.
*reads comments*
I must reiterate, everyone: It is entirely possible to have shitty opinions and still be a good person. Let’s not let the internet convince us that thinking must needs be black ‘n white, k?
*upvotes/thumbsup/likes*
It’s also possible for a person to be a complete asshole in some aspects and a good person in other aspects without one negating the other.
Human beings are kind of tricky fuckers that way.
But people need to fit perfectly into little boxes or I won’t know what to think of them!
Before someone responds I should clarify that some bad actions do indeed negate the good ones and that “it’s possible” doesn’t cover everything.
If you murder twelve people because they were gay, it doesn’t matter how many times you donated to the Girl Scouts, you’re kind of the worst sort of person.
The point I’m trying to make is that Human Beings are Clusterfucks sometimes and that Hank very much feels like falls into the “asshole in some ways, decent person in others” category.
But the shoe’s still dangling, who knows, maybe he’ll turn out to be just as much of an asshole as Carol is seeming.
I haven’t even read the comics and now I don’t want to. So I’ll just say
“This” and go.
That’s very true. I love people very much who think pineapple on pizza is terrible and who pronounce gif like Jiff. Those are bad* opinions that don’t make someone a bad person.
But thinking lesbians are evil corruptors? Nah, you** go sit in the bad person corner.
*I kid, I kid.
**General “you”, not specific.
…who pronounce gif like Jiff. Those are bad* opinions…
Like the engineering team who developed the format?
Yeah, fuck those guys, they don't have a say in anything pertaining to their creation.It’s not a jraphics interchange format, bro
It’s also not a jiraffe.
Seriously, of all the idiotic linguistic hills to die on…
Feel free to take it up with Steve Wilhite. I’m just amused that there’s a debate and don’t really care for either side.
One of the ways I knew I’d found a good church:
Pastor, getting cheery with notices: Does anyone know what happened on Tuesday?
Long haired hippie: The GIF patent expired!
Pastor (delighted): It did?! Okay, no, that wasn’t what I was meaning…
Did you get any jifts for your birthday?
Man, I can only hope that the CompuServe people got ribbed like that on a regular basis.
Conclusion: Written English is stupid. In theory, it has a phonetic alphabet. In practice, it’s using said alphabet in a way that makes it impossible to actually know how a new word is pronounced. I call it “hieroglyphs by letters”.
Yeah but the point is, if you’re going to make a shorthand word to represent a thing, shouldn’t the word be pronounced with the same sounds that what represents it have. It’s G-raphics. The G stands for G-raphics. Why would it make a J sound! It’s silly.
Language is silly. J is an accepted sound to come out of G. It’s not standard, but it’s not some weird, alien thing. It comes up with a fair amount of frequency, and in this case, sounds better. It’s not a shorthand word, it’s an acronym.
It’s not a jraphics interchange format, bro
By that logic a lot of people are fucking up the pronunciation of either “NATO” or “Atlantic.”
As for the GIF acronym I won’t be losing sleep over hearing it said one way or another. I better not, if I’ve been putting up with years of nonsense from friends, family and co-workers like “irregardless” and “I could care less,” or whatever else gives David Mitchell fits.
Indeed. And Hank is trying and that’s important… but it is also a thing that those who’ve bled out for humanity see enough to be concerned about or which resonates in painful ways for them.
It doesn’t make Hank “bad”. Hell, one could argue that few of those presented are so without any merit as to be wholly “bad”. But it does make him a dangerous ally, especially in these early days as he has a long road to hoe and the temptation to backslide with his wife being so insistent is going to be very very high.
Homphobes are only good people when they think you’re straight.
Heh. Too true.
That would imply homophobes can’t also hate other groups of people.
Nonono, in that case the sentence would be “homophobes are always good people when” etc.
Important note: If you think it’s possible to behave the way she does and still be a good person, you are absolutely not a good person.
This is exactly what a “bad person” is. Thanks for letting all us innocent members of her targeted minority group know that you think not being mean enough to call a fictional villain “evil” is more important than our wellbeing (and often lives).
Well,m he does have a Decepticon icon, and he could be talking about Hank…
While I don’t think anything you just said is unreasonable, I will say that I abhor the type of mentality when people believe there to be “good” and “bad” people. Putting those qualifiers on people causes you to look at people as diametrically opposed. The kind of person who thinks of themselves as a “good person” is a frightening individual to me. Because when you do that you begin to feel justified in everything you do and look at people who disagree with you as “The others” It’s a dangerous mentality for a person to have, in my honest opinion.
I’m not sure how to go about agreeing with your philosophy without just repeating what you said, so I guess just saying “this” will have to suffice.
Sure, some “good” people are actually bad. I’m sure Carol thinks of herself as good and matches your description of the problems quite nicely.
I, on the other hand, won’t consider anyone who won’t accept their daughter’s childhood best friend because she’s a lesbian and who’s considering pulling their daughter out of school and screwing up her life because she’s afraid of her being seduced by atheists and lesbians a good person.
I’ve said before here that the minimal acceptable thing to do here is to welcome Becky in, give her a big hug and offer her a place to stay. Hank’s hovering right around “basically decent human being”. Carol can’t even see the line.
It’s weird how I just had this entire post about how the labels “good” and “bad” is a dangerous way of qualifying people and you responded by saying “I can’t just see Carol as a “Good Person”.
I never once said you need to see Carol as a good person and my entire paragraph discussed an aversion to the labels at all! I seem to be misunderstood.
Well, I was also referring back to OP about “good person with shitty opinions” and using yours to point at Carol as the type of “Good person” you were talking about.
People too up on themselves as “good” are more likely to fall in that category. Talking about others isn’t quite the same. I get your point though.
OTOH, I don’t like the whitewashing of truly toxic behavior as “just opinion”, which you didn’t do though the earlier poster did, but the exaltation of “not labeling” as a good unto itself verify often masks such defenses.
Another major problem is that Carol’s POV is self-reinforcing. Like imagine, really imagine, that you knew as if for a fact that welcoming Becky and Joyce like a decent human being would cause Joyce horrible torture in Hell for eternity. (She already thinks that’s what awaits Becky, whom she no longer views as a person, but that’s a whole nother layer of awful.) All that hellfire makes her view incredibly pernicious, and it’s how she can think that she’s doing anything right by her daughter.
Uh, I think they’re talking about Hank here, so I’m not sure if that level of vitriol is warranted (Unless the OP actually is referring to Carol and I’m mistaken, in which case, ignore me and carry on, I guess).
I’m not inclined to be terribly sympathetic towards people like Carol. She has made it clear she is putting the blame of Ross’ actions on Becky, and the fact Becky is a lesbian. Not Ross’ controlling and abusive nature, not his violent tendencies. It’s all Becky’s fault, in her mind.
People like Carol think people like me would be better off dead, and it’s our fault when bad things happen to us; when our parents kick us or send us to “rehabilitation camps”, when we get murdered for daring to be out in public with our SO’s, when our children get taken away from us.
I’m not all that inclined to think of her as a good person.
People are complex, messy things. A collection of different views and ideals, with no two being the same. I think it’s due to that stupid thing that we’re afflicted with, what’s it call, free will. And I have a feeling Willis will use said free will soon and shut down comments on this page if things get a bit to philosophical with a bend towards defending Carol’s view.
It’s just seems easier to hate. Myself, from a religious standpoint, with my family, I’m “in the closet”, for fear of being shut out. Which is horrible. Perhaps not as bad as one who isn’t cis-straight, which ironically, my family would of been fine with, and were seemingly surprised when I told them I had a girlfriend. (That’s a story for another day)
Keep up the good work Willis. Hopefully you’re not drawing too much from personal experience here. While people do, they never should have to deal with this.
THANK you. All the comments above here are already condemning Hank as a complete asshole undeserving of life for not immediately going NO WIFE YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE TRUTH IS SUCH.
But that’s not how people work. Hank, the conflict-averse, comparatively timid man, is not going to suddenly turn into an ardent defender with perfect internet-forged points willing to completely shatter his own family for the sake of winning an argument and being in agreement with the audience. This does not make him a terrible person. This makes him someone trying to be a decent person in stormy seas without a compass.
Consider: conflict-aversion of that sort is what enables abuse. I am mad at Hank here because he reminds me of my own dad. Whom I love! But holy shit I have baggage there, and I am not going to nod along to ‘yes this is a reasonable position for Hank to take’.
That he’s been ‘timid and conflict averse’ so far is not an excuse, it’s part of the problem.
When you see your partner being a complete piece of shit to your children, do you stand up for the children or do you nod along and try to smooth the hard edges so it’s harder for the children to leave when they are adult enough to?
:>
Mm, yeah. My mom and I are distant, not because she’s an active hater. In fact, despite her bad education in all things TERF, she doesn’t actively hate me and there are glimpses of almost effort…
But we are not close because having her in my life puts me too close to the dad who wanted to “fix” me and she refuses to actually defend me to him or do anything to separate herself from the man who wanted to ship her kid off to some reparative therapy program and who disowned me and sent me lots of abusive messages.
I understand why. I see what she stands to lose. I see why she enables my father and doesn’t push back against him. She’s always been timid and conflict averse.
But we’re no longer in each other’s lives in anything approaching the same way as we used to.
And to Drake- The thing isn’t that we’re all Hank needs to be burned at the stake. It’s that a number of us recognize the Hank’s in our lives and how they stood aside and watched us burn.
He’s trying and that’s something, but jury’s still out on whether or not that will be enough. And whether that will be enough in time.
Well put, Cerberus.
conflict aversion is also how you survive abuse…but you don’t make the vulnerable people in your life safer by never standing up to conflict.
Sing me another one. Most people are, if anything, fairly kind to the dude for throwing his third daughter under the bus, with lots of “Oh I’m sure it’s just part of a strategy.” It /might/ be, sure, but this level of confidence isn’t really earned.
I ain’t particularly mad, but like… His family’s already shattering. Jordan’s too Jordan. Jocelyne hides her ass. Joyce is breaking down, and Becky is on thin ice and close to never seeing them again, or being allowed to. It’s not like his inaction is all that likely to continue helping.
He’s a bit like the protagonist of “A Serious Man”, constantly protesting “I haven’t done anything!” as his life crumbles around him.
All of this.
It’s evolution or die and depending on where John feels his loyalties lie could mean the difference between losing all of their kids or just most of them.
Being abusive isn’t just a shitty opinion though.
man is it so hand to have 5 pages of non-drama?
Yes.
Drama is much easier to create. I mean, look at the world we live in.
Slipshine: not just for porn, it’s also a multi-page respite from drama! (but mostly porn)
see if you want to make me happy… front page of the newspaper a story about their pastor doing something truly evil and crushing Carols little fundie world
“Bless his soul, but at least he thought he was doing the right thing. I mean . . . put yourself in his shoes.”
If anything, that might just make her even more determined that ‘evil’ and ‘impurity’ must be stamped out; if not even the preacher is immune to their foul influence, then her foolish, trusting little girl has almost certainly been beguiled by the wicked heathens and lesbians that ‘got’ Becky, and damage control is urgent!
Except it’s been established that Carol doesn’t care about true evil; she thinks “evil” is a synonym for “gay” and therefore actual bad stuff (like chasing teenage girls through the woods with a gun and trying to murder a superheroine) doesn’t qualify.
They’re nondemoninational. Not loyal to any particular pastor. If I recall there’s been mention of them switching around from time to time when the pastor isn’t reflecting their views properly. They used to go to a Mary sort of pastor who felt that church should be an exclusive club, but they didn’t agree with that so they switched to a pastor that preached more of a “God will accept anybody so long as you repent and change your ways” sort of shtick.
I wouldn’t say they’re “not loyal to any particular pastor,” I might say it’s even the opposite.
First I’d point out that nondenominational really only has to mean they’re not loyal to a sect (or at least, a large/named sect). Even if they were denominational, they wouldn’t necessarily have more of a connection to the pastor, either, seeing as pastors move and switch out and die regardless of church.
Beside that, seeing as they’re both nondenominational and actively chose their church for it’s teachings and tone and lack of b-words, I’d say they’re probably pretty into their chosen pastor because he’s not just the local c[correct denomination] pastor, he’s one (of several nondenominational options) who has always, up until that point, represented them and the views they care about.
Also I wouldn’t necessarily say they’d reject a church Mary liked/went to either- just that if those people didn’t think the Browns were good enough Christians and acted like b-words toward them, they’d leave. Joyce implied the leaving was more about community than teachings.
I’m kinda confused as to where this assumption comes from, that someone can just be “seduced” into homosexuality. It feels like the people who say it have certain feelings they’re not quite ready to talk about…
There’s a lotta’ handsome gay dudes.
In the same way you can be seduced into a fandom. If you don’t watch/read it, you don’t run the risk of becoming a fanatic. But if you DO and you enjoy it, then you were seduced. Rather than being tempted and hating it.
Just like I was seduced into reading Naruto back in middle school because a cute boy was dressed up like Sasuke.
Then I kinda’ floundered a bit and forgot about him because there was like three hundred damn chapters of Naruto to read.
Well, if you refuse to see homosexuality as an identity or something people can just “be” and instead view it as an infection or a demonic possession, then of course people are “seduced” into this “ungodly lifestyle”, because clearly that is the only way to explain people coming out.
To think otherwise would be to think that they are merely born that way. And if they were born that way, then, in their eyes, God must have created them gay. And if he created them gay, he must have a reason. And since being gay is “ungodly and awful”, and if being gay is a God-given trait, then that would mean that God is an asshole giving people a really hard road to hoe just to laugh at them as they struggle and that would make God an asshole.
And if God is an asshole, why would you pray to that. It’s basically the script of Joyce’s current rejection of evolution, just about a person instead:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/originalsin/
I’ve never quite understood that as a response, though. Mental illness is still plainly a thing in their world, as is being born with a deformity. The idea that God gives some people a really hard time is hardly new to them. All the exorcisms in the world don’t make a missing arm regrow (except in some really, really odd denominations).
You’d think they’d still acknowledge the idea of an inborn predisposition, y’know? That’s essentially the basis of Original Sin; that humans can be born with innate dispositions to sinful actions.
Maybe I’m asking too much from this line of thought when I try to find consistency.
I think it’s mostly not wanting to have the origin be God.
Like, if it’s a sinful choice, then they don’t run into this “evil” thing being something that God gave them. I mean, a deformity, maybe that’s Satan testing the family or God having a long plan. A mental illness, the same, though most Pre-Millennial Dispensationalists I knew were mental health denialists who mostly believed that emotional and mental disorders were just acting out due to the Satan’s influence or corruption, trying to test the Godly family with a “difficult” child.
And so gayness has to come later and through Satan, so that God wasn’t behind it, because that way they can view it as an “evil” rather than an “affliction” and definitely neither way as it actually is.
Should also note: many of them believe illness and disability are punishment for sin or part of God’s plan, depending which version of White Republican Jesus they believe in. So either God is punishing them and they deserve it or there’s some greater good being served.
Yup. If the child is born with it, then it’s due to the sins of the mother and we all must tither and gossip about what sin she committed in her past. If it’s your kid, then it’s all part of God’s plan and we’ll see that unfold in the beautiful opportunity to show our goodness and all that malarky.
And if the kid shows signs later in life, then it’s all on the kid for being demonic or demon-infested and the mother for “losing control of her household” due to her “weakness”.
unfortunately, the standpoint that Christians (and also Jews, and also some in Buddhism as well. but not Islam!), if you are born with a physical or mental disability, it is because your PARENTS are the sinners. a disabled child is a punishment to the parents, you see.
Woah there, that’s not a Jewish idea. If you have a disabled kid, it’s nobody’s fault and you help them do the best they can.
Um, your karma is your own and no one else’s — as I understand Buddhism anyway.
Ever how a lot of those really hardcore fundie preachers who talk about the evils of homosexuality and the homogay agenda and how those people are coming to seduce your kids away, they always seem to wind up turning up in the papers after getting caught in a gay affair?
They live a constant, pointless struggle denying who they are, so they assume everyone else is too. Since they can’t be gay, they’re good god fearing christians, it’s those gays seducing them into sucking all that dick!
And if it’s true for them, surely it must be true for everyone else…and thus the theory is born.
It’s a pretty old standby of homophobes, and a big reason it’s hard for gay couples to adopt.
Psychological Projection.
the Evangelical /fundie religion is based on seducing someone with powerful emotions : guilt of murder/ forgiveness.
damned to hell / saved ..
and recruitment into it.
Then this is seen a privileged psychology due to emotional tension/release ;
Then this paradigm is repressed so its not seen and then the slightest deviations from the paradigm are projteced by the person as following the pattern you out-layed: seduction and recruitment
Wow, these people are fond of the letter J.
Isn’t everybody?
They must secretly be Duggars. Overly sheltering, homeschooling, name all their kids with the letter J?
Just ask Joyce’s older brother, JJ the Jetplane Brown.
Or the second brother, J. Jonah Jameson Brown.
The Joestar lineage has spread far I see.
You and I are of a similar mind, I see.
Good looking people usually are.
*Uproarious rich people laughter*
So no Chi no Sadame, my good chap.
Oh fuck he said something I don’t understand
Is it a reference? I mean I guess I could look it up but then I’d be lame.
If I asked him he’d just think I’m a tool.
Shit say something!
Y-yare yare daze.
Here you go.
The theory that Jotaro is actually a giant dork and is only quiet because he spends so much time coming up with cool one-liners is my favourite headcanon.
it makes them closer to jesus
I had friend like that. Both parents, all three kids, and three dogs all had names that started with the same letter, coincidently, it was also “J”.
First strip? Seriously? Wow.
I know this is a regular thing, but it just horrifies me that there are so many parents who think that their children having free thought is the worst thing ever. I guess they just think their children will let their parents think for them their whole lives, even when they’re adults?
Yes. Because children are property through which to demonstrate your own holiness. Not people.
They’re props you bring with you to Church to show that uppity Amanda what for with how perfect and godly you’ve personally raised your little angels while hers have fallen in with sinful ways.
If they start growing up and getting ideas and questioning things, then you’re the Amanda and everyone else snickers and makes fun of you and how you’ve so failed in Christ as to let your children be seduced by Satan.
So you slam harder against their free will, keeping them in the dark so they never can see. And thus not be “tainted” by the “godlessness” of the world.
It’s a worldview where children are better dead than “tainted”.
Just so you know, can go the other way too. My parents were science/math/practical and did their best to keep careers in the arts a non-option for me and my sisters.
True. Treating kids like props is not a solely Christian thing to do. Sadly it is a common and proud tradition of many parents everywhere.
When you believe that accepting certain things without question is the determining factor for your eternal happiness or suffering, you tend to get a bit concerned when your kids start asking questions. Questions like why accepting certain things without question is the determining factor for your eternal happiness or suffering.
Questions are how Satan robs faith and tricks you from what is “right”. A child asking questions instead of just instantly seeing the pure “rightness” of God’s revealed wisdom, is a child whose eyes have been clouded by Satan, likely do to some infection caused by their friends or hobbies or secular media.
So you bar them even more from the outside world and you try and hold on to their souls a little longer because the Rapture will be any day now and you just gotta make it there.
It’s a worldview, certainly.
I just noticed that all Hank and Carol’s kids have names beginning in ‘Jo.’ Took me long enough.
…aaand so did Pasta. Oh well; I doubt we were the first anyway.
Jobro’s Bizarre Adventure?
I’m too tired to come up with Stands for them all.
I’d call Joyce’s 「Jesus Take The Wheel 」
And Becky’s can be 「Under Pressure」
F-f-f-fuuuuck thiiiis~~
At least ask this out to dinner, dude. Sheesh! You gotta whine and dine this before you just hop on into bed with it.
Ah, the ignorance of fundies.
Yes, that whole gay agenda where they want to turn everyone into gays and lesbians, and use the pages of the King James Bible as toilet paper, while singing Satantic hymnals (backmasked in popular music, of course).
Hail Lucifer, let’s go get abortions… my treat!
Now I’m curious as to what happened to Jordan.
“Josh.” Oof. Fuck.
Also, really curious about Jordan now.
Funny how both of them seem to forget they only have limited ability to squeeze an adult.
Maybe they try to make an issue of this while Joyce is visiting. Maybe next time they try to arrange one of these visits Joyce has plans.
We all only have limited ability to squeeze an adult. Because if we Squeeze too much, they call the police on you and call you names like pervert or weirdo!
Don’t you just hate it when they used pepper spray, I think that should permanently ruins your eyes the more you get hit by it.
Carol takes off her sweater to reveal of a pair of massive, twenty inch pythons
Turns out she was Carol “The Mangler” Brown back in college, a state famous power lifter for Christ.
Hank is just really into buff ladies
This is my headcanon now. You can’t stop me.
“Carol takes off her sweater to reveal of a pair of massive, twenty inch-”
You have my attention.
“pythons”
Now you’ve REALLY got my attention.
“Dear diary, today I learned that Yotomoe was
REALLYinto buff ladies.”Or really into snakes…
Can’t it be both?
Turns out Carol was one of those weird snake guys from Batman Beyond.
An adult who is, at the moment, completely financially dependent on them.
Yeah this.
People underestimate how dependant privileged kids are on their parents: in my region, your parents’ income is taken into account for calculating student aid and the sole way to get out of that is to get your parents to sign an affidavit. If you’re on the outside with them, that’s not happening.
If you are super sheltered like Joyce, you might not have a social insurance number. Or if you do, you might not have the card for it. You may not have stuff like work clothes or interview skills. I could go on.
And that’s without going into the effect ofa lifetime of being told (explicitly or implicitly) that you are incompetent and have no chance of a good life if you don’t follow your parents’ plan for you and give up anything approaching free will.
Current setup enables abusers to have leverage over kids well into adulthood. A lot of victims decide it is easier to grin and bear it for a few more years until after university or college.
Yup. And let’s not forget that Joyce is getting a crash course look at the roller coaster that is completely being cut off from family in Becky’s mad scramble to stay afloat and so has some terrifying context to the passive threat.
Joyce why are you stressing, if you don’t want them to take out of school then defect completely and cut off the control they have over you by taking your own education in your own hands. Do the same thing Becky did and start taking loans and get job to save up to pay it all off will your at it.
To be fair there is a chance for Joyce to be seduced by lesbians and/or unbelievers. At least I’m hoping there is.
…I know it’s unlikely but I wonder what Joyce trying to seduce someone would look like.
I imagine it’d look something like this. http://i.imgur.com/vsShwK6.png
It’s a canonical joke!
Damn you Brown family and your superior wide hipped genes!
Built for sex, but raised for jesus. That’s the brown Motto!
Wait, Carol is only a Brown by marriage, Hank’s the one with the actual genes.
So does that mean….
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Besides Joyce and her sister, all the other browns are boys, so obviously.
It has more of a uneven amount of cute than sexy to it.
Yotome, you are officially our resident lovable pervert, congratulations
And then Becky woke up.
That’s an old one. I’m sure I’ve posted it before!
I feel like I read a different interpretation of Hank’s ‘Joyce is stronger than that’ than everybody else. I can see where people are getting the ‘stronger than being a lesbian’ vibe, or ‘stronger than falling into sin’, but for some reason I read it differently.
It’s hard to put into words what I read it as. Stronger in faith, maybe? Or just stronger in general, in that Joyce isn’t going to just sleep with her best friend, not to rebel against her parents or something. Like, she’s a better person than to just whip off her pants and have sex with her best friend. That Joyce is the same little girl who had sleepovers with Becky as a child, and wouldn’t just do some premarital hanky-panky because now her best friend is gay. We’ll have to see where Hank’s loyalty lies, because his wife is too much. Holy crap, calm down Carol.
Er, that’s pretty much how I read it? You just seem to be more okay with that than I was. Like, for instance, I don’t see “whip[ping] off her pants and hav[ing] sex with her best friend” as a bad person thing–not something Joyce would do either, but avoiding it doesn’t make you a better person.
To be fair, even if Becky was a boy her Fundie parents probably wouldn’t want her to be doing that. She doesn’t even have a ring!
Yeah, and I still find that controlling and unpleasant.
I don’t see it as a bad person thing either, but that’s probably how they would read it of course. And yeah, they DEFINITELY would act like this if Becky was a boy. I’m not OKAY with it but I guess I don’t entirely understand the issue, aside from the obvious which seems to stem more from Carol, whereas Hank is more…’good yet not good enough’? I don’t know, I’m just pretty confused with the reactions here. By all means, no one is WRONG, I’m just confused that people are giving up on Hank. Of course, Hank also draws the line at atheism so… He’s not being as good as he can be, no. He needs to be BETTER. Hopefully Joyce can show him the way and he’ll listen like he says he would, and if not… That’ll be hard for Joyce.
Honestly, Hank having stuff he won’t work past makes sense and makes him better. Acceptance isn’t just about believing in all the right stuff. It’s being able to agree to disagree and be able to let someone make their own decisions and not trying to force them. If you’re pissed because someone doesn’t adhere to or believe in all YOUR beliefs, then suddenly the constrictive one!
Good point, especially because ‘the right stuff’ is subjective for people. And Hank still thinks all the stuff he believes in is right, just like Joyce did prior, whereas now she seems more unsure. All that stuff you described does sound pretty much like Hank. Like, we don’t know exactly what Jordan did or has done to be considered like a ‘boogeyman’ in their house. If he’s an example of ‘he became an atheist and one or both parents got PISSED and broke things off’ then maybe Hank is trying to repent for their mistakes with Jordan by trying to let Joyce live her life. Whereas, as we can see, Carol wants to ‘save’ her ‘only daughter’ whether she wants her to or not.
Eh, that’s not really better.
“Her faith is stronger than that.” It’s still equating homosexuality and atheism with being evil.
And premarital hanky-pankies, don’t forget that evil!
But yeah…I guess it’s like Hank thinks ‘Joyce isn’t like THEM’ which is where it gets really uncomfortable and icky. “You are a GOOD CHILD” and thus, pressure to be that perfect girl.
at best, Joyce is “Stronger than temptation.”
I think maybe a better way to express what you’re saying (if I’m reading correctly) is that he means Joyce’s sense of self (which does include her faith) is too strong to change just because of someone else’s influence.
Of course, he’s still wrong for thinking influencing her sexuality is really possible, but it doesn’t mean he thinks Becky is ‘seducing’ her. A less extreme, non domineering family could use the same concept sort of like this:
“Jane’s friends all seem to like (x, y, z) and not into (a, b, c) like she is. I hope she still likes helping with (a), and doesn’t lose her love for (c).”
“She’s stronger than that. She’s not going to lose her own interests just because her friends have different ones.”
Yeah actually that’s a good way to put it! Thanks for apparently doing a better job of explaining my thought process than me xD You actually did do a good job, and I’m sorry if I at all made it hard to get what I meant. For some reason the words weren’t getting to me. You hit it on the head though. Whereas Carol views everybody who isn’t like them as being… well, the Devil who will CHAAAAANGE JOYCE AND SEDUCE HER TO SIIIIIN! Hank is more ‘Joyce is a stronger person than that, we raised her to be’. Which isn’t to say Hank thinks everybody is the Devil like Carol, because he seems to be trying despite an initial ‘sin’ kind of response. It kind of reminds me of two parents arguing about their kid’s friend who is a delinquent or something. …Though yeah… Becky being compared to a delinquent or anything like that is unfair. Man this is just an unfortunate situation.
Oh no you don’t, Carol.
If one’s faith is going to be so easily swayed by “lesbians and unbelievers,” maybe it’s the faith that’s the problem.
…he said, stating the obvious.
What’s really wrong is Unbelievers! It’s “nonbelievers”.
Turns out Jordan just only goes to church on easter and christmas
A possibility. I’m hoping that Willis chooses to expand on the ‘Jordan situation’ a little. Is he gay? Did he (and I can see this as being almost worse in his parents’ eyes) marry an ‘unbeliever’? No matte the details, it is clear that Hank thinks that the cause was being too controlling whilst Carol thinks that they were not controlling enough.
Regarding the announcement box:
Willis, your socks are SUPPOSED to have holes in them. They’re there to accommodate (depending how high up the leg they go) your ankles, calves, knees, thighs, and hips.
……. I’M NOT JUDGING.
I think you may have confused socks and unbirthing.
IT’S A NATURAL MISTAKE TO MAKE!
First panel: Single-story house. Second panel: Joyce is walking upstairs. WTF?
Um, she’s coming from the basement?
Are you sure her parents don’t sleep in the attic?
Or a treehouse.
She’s walking up from the basement.
Daylight basement, right?
But I thought Indiana was made of 100% flat. The parts of it I saw sure were.
Basements are underground. That’s the point of a basement. 😐
I take it you live somewhere like Indiana, which is Made Of Flat.
I live in a three and a half storey tall building. The lowest level is flush with the ground – no steps up or down – in front.
In back, without the retaining wall, only the top floor would be above ground enough for windows. Even with the massive retaining wall – which is wide enough to walk on without doing any sort of walking-on-a-balance-beam shenaningans, it’s a little under half a metre wide – we only get another storey with windows above-ground. The next two floors down are both underground on one side, above-ground on the other.
This is a bit more of a dig-in than usual, but it’s not exceptional. Anyway, if it’s only two levels, the lower level (completely underground on one side, ground level on the other) is called a daylight basement.
Wisconsin. 🙂 There are some hillsides large enough for dugouts here, but a walk-out basement is more of a luxury or landscaping feature than something that’s a natural result of the land. ^^;
Also, while they’re better in a tornado that a completely exposed house, the open side of dugouts can still bone you over in a tornado if there’s too much glass in it. ^^; We have basements as much or more for tornadoes as for actual living space.
I have driven through Wisconsin once, coming back from graduate school! It was very flat. And lakey, which was like, “hey, truth in advertising!”
We don’t have tornadoes so we have like zero planning for that. We just have volcanoes and earthquakes. And windstorms. Lots of windstorms. But those do damage by knocking over trees, not directly. It’s like that old rule in American animation – you can’t shoot somebody, so you shoot the roof and have something fall on them instead.
I assumed it was a split level house like the one I live in.
And there’s when Joyce learns SURPRISE, THEY AREN’T YOUR FRIENDS.
Hey, Joyce, how quickly do you think you can get a degree and how good at misdirection and elision can you get how quickly, because those things? They are your friends when it comes to dealing with this.
Get some tips from your older sister, stat. She seems to have things in hand so far.
By the way you have an older sister, she’s fantastic and please don’t do the fundie thing at her.
What do you mean you went to college to learn your major? You’re here to learn how to lie and network, dear.
Everything is relative. This is entirely consistent with his portrayal up to this point, and is in fact the best possible portrayal he could have gotten given his marital situation. Hank is very socially conservative by instinct and upbringing, but is humble enough to want to give his children room to grow, form their own understanding of the world and teach him their perspective.
Hank’s not a bad guy. But good people have all sorts of shitty things about them, just as many bad people do all sorts of good things. The very diplomatic, conciliatory instincts that allow him to accept his children for who they are also directed toward getting along with his wife and trying to guide her gently towards where he wants them to be. It’s why he loves Becky and was willing to smile and nod with Toedad for her.
If Hank had grown up in a different environment, he’d probably be one of the chillest dads to ever remain completely square. But he’s here, and this is how he adapted. He deserves plenty of flak for how his children were raised, but there is a clear and significant difference between him and Carol.
“Dear Miss Manner,*
My wife is getting increasingly wary of my daughter’s life style choices and want to increase parental control, something I feel might be counterproductive and also introduce unnecessary tension in what might just be a normal teenage rebellion. What should I do?
~ Living vicariously through my children ~ ”
“Dear Living vicariously,
Since men and women are unfathomable mysteries to each other, I have transferred your question to a college of mine who recently found himself with a lot of ‘free’ time. Good luck.
~Miss Manner”
“Dear Living vicariously,
JUST POINT A GUN AT HER. THAT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING!!! GUN-GUN-GUN!!!
~Shaped like a toe.~”
“Dear Toe,
Ummmm….
~ Living vicariously through my children ~ ”
”
*) Still stole that joke from Leorale. Still funny!
Pretty sure this is only because I’ve been watching a lot of Gilmore Girls, but I’m hearing her parents arguing as Emily and Richard Gilmore.
More often than not that’s how their personalities were. Though when the switch got flipped on Richard it got flipped HARD.
Okay.
I’ve been reading about half the comments, and I have to ask.
Why is it that everyone’s making statements about how awful Carol is and debating how good or bad Hank is?
I mean, I don’t disagree with the prevalent views. But why is it that makes that sort of quality judgement the priority?
MY first questions looking at this sort of situation aren’t “are these people good, bad, reedemable, unredeemable, or fucking evil?”
My first questions are “Wow, this situation is messed up, these people’s world views are messed up, it’s causing friction and it’s going to cause suffering, so HOW CAN I CHANGE THAT?”
Obviously we can’t do that for the comic itself. Nor would we want to… it’s okay to be entertained by fictional train wrecks, after all. But this fictional tale is also serving as an example or symbol for thousands, maybe tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, of similar situations that play out in this country every year. WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT THAT?
I’m not saying people aren’t also asking the “how do we change it” question. But everyone seems to be focusing so much more, and so much more immediately, and so much more intently, on identifying where so-and-so falls on the evilometer, and it’s kind of… I don’t know what it is, but I don’t like it and I don’t get it.
It’s easier to make judgments in the heat of the moment than to make suggestions for future change.
This just hits too close to home for people here to be able to make this sort of detached judgement.
We can talk like that about Ruth and Billie, about the Amber/Amazi-girl problem, but this? This is just too close. We’ve been taught too much that in the conflict of parent and child it’s always the child who’s at fault, and parents are infallible and always right and just need to squeeze more.
So we just kinda… grab at each other to reassure ourselves that yes, this is horrible behavior, and no, Joyce is not the wrong one in this situation.
Okay. I can see the need and value and power of mutual affirmation in that sort of situation. Maybe it’s just my never-been-there privilege talking. So, sorry for any insensitivity.
But I still want that “how do we make it better” conversation, and promptly, and I won’t apologize for THAT.
Yeah, this.
As to Reltzik:
I grew up with this. Literally this. Pre-millennial dispensationalist, Rapture believing, 6000 year Earth, Antichrist, the whole 9 yards. I’ve spent most of my life on the “how do we handle this” problem, because I grew up helping friends stuck deep in it with hateful parents and struggling with non-heteronormativity or just being their own person. I’ve seen too many people cling in closets and hide their live-in partners from the light of day because they’ve seen how their siblings have been thrown out on their own for “lesser sins”.
I’ve run a number of youth groups for trans and ace college students, helped a large number through the depression and the disownments and the “relatives with religious views”, sometimes running literally out of holiday events to do triage emotional care.
I’ve done a lot of mentoring for trans kids fearing the loss of everything but struggling to stay alive with the weight of their closets and the constant misgendering that comes with them. The pain on their face as their relatives tell them to their face that they are going to Hell.
I’ve been in the trenches, I’ve seen the human pain that casual bigotry causes. The bodies it leaves behind. The shell-shocked look on their children’s faces much like last panel Joyce.
I also know the answer to your question. And it’s ugly and it’s hard and it’s a lot of long tireless work that may never reach people like Carol. A lot of the minority group throwing their tired bloody walls against the brick wall of casual hatred until every last brick shakes lose from its foundations and we pretend it was never a part of the wall to begin with.
It requires kids to come out and become homeless, for people to share their painful life stories to people who may laugh and mock them for it, for a lot of bad to happen until the weight of social pressure forces the hatred to become more subtle, less open.
So that one day kids like Becky won’t ever have a life like hers.
And people like Hank and Carol, they are symptoms of the rot. Cultures like theirs are too if we’re being honest. But the harsh light of day is a powerful disinfectant and social rebuke is a powerful weapon for change.
Anyways, tl;dr to say we’re not exactly losing sight of the “big picture strategy” when we express familiar disappointment in the Hank that comes out with Carol versus with Joyce. Or dismay at the familiar cold hatreds of Carol.
First of all, THANK YOU for everything you’ve described yourself as doing here, plus all the other things I’m sure you do but didn’t have room to describe. I don’t say this as a beneficiary of your help, or as a member of any of the communities you’re helping. I say it as someone who lives on the same planet as you. Thank you. I wish I had the emotional… awareness? Precision? Not-perpetually-foot-in-my-mouth-ness? Acumen? … to contribute to that sort of work without Danning it up. But I know that someone like me, however supportive I might be at heart, who can’t even keep pronouns straight when dealing with transgender people (for example), is probably best off getting out of the way.
I guess I’m more suited to offense than defense. Given a choice between ministering to the victims and going after the victimizers, I’ll go after the victimizers… and do so in a cold, calculating, analytical manner that’s more about precision strategy than anger or condemnation. That might sound harsh and uncaring towards the victims, but sometimes before you apply the bandages and tourniquets you have to kill the chainsaw-wielding maniac, because delaying in doing so is measured in more victims.
… and I add another failed metaphor to my resume.
mmmmmmmmmmmm I’m a triage person. so you go to whoever needs the most help first and do what you can. so in this situation, order of help for me would go: Becky, Joyce, Hank, Carol. Becky is the one most in danger if Carol starts insisting that she has to be kicked out of their house; Joyce is the second most in danger if Carol starts insisting that she be withdrawn from college; and Hank is the third most in danger, because while he’s not a target he gets to be either an accessory (in which case he doesn’t get hurt) or caught in the crossfire (in which case he gets to have moral satisfaction).
K.O.-ing Carol here is not an option, because, like, a) that puts you on the same level as Toedad and b) murder is wrong. There’s no way to convince Carol that she’s wrong, because Carol doesn’t want to be convinced that she’s wrong. Logic doesn’t come into it; this is all gut-level Carol, the things she wants and the world she wants to force into place.
Carol, I think, is asking to be lied to and hated and misdirected and handled, because she’s proven that she’s completely unable to handle this situation with any modicum of grace. She doesn’t have any good intentions here; she just wants to control.
Hank on the other hand…he’s trying to defuse her, I think. so it’s less like living with a chainsaw maniac, more like living with a walking time bomb that sputters out and releases shrapnel every five seconds. and that’s why I think Hank is more viewable as morally ambiguous here and Carol is more viewable as a dank hellbeast.
“Hank on the other hand…he’s trying to defuse her, I think. so it’s less like living with a chainsaw maniac, more like living with a walking time bomb that sputters out and releases shrapnel every five seconds.”
It’s called living with an abusive spouse. I didn’t get into this discussion about Hank and Carol, because I’ve watched both my brothers live with abusive wives, and they keep doing it because they don’t know how to get out. I’ve offered them resources, and they keep saying, “Those are only for women.” I’ve suggested they just walk, and they come back with, “We were taught not to treat women like that.” My parents taught them how to be “gentlemen,” and now they’re so brainwashed in it, they take verbal, emotional, and physical abuse off their wives. What’s more, their fears about spousal abuse being only a “woman’s problem,” is reinforced by other family members and peers who tell them they should just “man up” and deal with their wives or that if they were “real men” they wouldn’t just take it like that.
Watching Hank and Carol interact is just painful for me, because I keep seeing my brothers and the crazy they’re attached to, and worrying about how their kids are going to turn out, and being completely unable to do anything about it. Then I turn around and see comments about how Hank isn’t that much of a good guy/isn’t much better than Carol/needs to do this-that-theotherthing, and it’s just living a mini version of real life. :/
We need all kinds of helpers! Don’t be intimidated by the pronouns, you’ll get them with practice. Much more important is using your best skills; being calmly analytical can be a great asset. Variety in allies is great, since it all needs to happen at once.
When I say “it all needs to happen at once”, I mean, LGBTQ+ folks need to keep coming out. LGBTQ+ folks and their allies need to encourage them, support them, and help them heal from whatever shit happens from coming out, and live well.
Allies from all walks of life need to talk to the bigots, too — some of us should scream and yell, some should meet them where they’re at and patiently support them in opening their minds to a kinder worldview, both approaches are needed.
Whatever community identifies you, some of us should improve the laws on a macro scale, some should give coffee and a kind word and a place to crash on a person-to-person scale. We need lawyers to stay completely calm, and pastors to shout from the pulpits, and, heck, baristas to help them both rejuvinate afterwards. We need political organizers to help LGBTQ+ politicians and ally politicians get power, and to topple powerful bigots. We need people who can get funding, people who can create the programs, people to implement and evaluate the programs. We need memorials and celebrations… We need so many kinds of very different people that you will surely find a way to help.
Thank you…I needed that perspective.
Well, this put me into a bad mood, to say the least. Learning for the first time that your family’s truly broken hits way close to home. Has anyone else had those moments?
For me, it was the discovery that my entire dad’s side of the family has been a bickering mess for a long time. Hearing my mom talk shit about family members I have so many great memories with was pretty upsetting.
Yeah. They suck. Learning that all the good talk of unconditional love was actually super conditional and oh yeah, you failed the condition is a rough damn thing.
Joyce is learning that lesson fast and worse, she is learning just how much danger she is in for simply pushing back this little against the culture she was raised in.
Boy can I relate to that…
Everybody talks behind each others’ backs in my family. Definitely a hard thing to come to terms with.
One story house…Joyce ascends a flight of stairs XD
my childhood bedroom was in our one-story house’s finished basement
anyway, yes, we had stairs: http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/140203164657/as-children-my-brother-and-i-would-stuff-some
So, Joyce sleeps in the basement? Frankly, I much prefer having a view to a room, and having a bed in the basement is a bit on the “Carrie” side, at least in my eye. On the plus side, it would be the coolest room in the house during those burning Midwest summers.
It’s not uncommon. Both of the houses my husband lived in were one-story houses with finished basements, and both times the bedroom was in the basement. In the first house, the guest room was also in the basement. We’re living with my in-laws right now, and my husband, daughter and I share his old bedroom in the basement. My family bounced around a lot when I was growing up, and I’ve had bedrooms in the basement, bedrooms in the attic, and main floor bedrooms.
My parents’ house is on a slight incline do the basement at the front has windows at ground-level but in the back you can walk out a door into the backyard. It’s been my room for over 15 years.
Joyce also gets her own bathroom away from the boys.
Joyce now has a choice to make, one for which I’m afraid that there are no 100% good options.
I disagree.
I’m intrigued; for the record, what do you consider the ‘100% good option’?
While one option is the clear moral choice here, it’s not 100% good in that it results in lasting unpleasant psychological (regardless of how screwed up the familial dynamic is here, it would still do a number on Joyce to break ties with people she’s genuinely cared about for basically her whole life) and material consequences, which is what I assumed OP was getting at.
Wow Joyce can just not catch a break can she?
Just imagining, how non-violent communication would work with Carol, who’s main concern in life seems to be not going to hell.
C:She must break of all communication with … That girl!
Rosenberg: What would this achieve?
C: she wouldn’t go to hell for communing with the infidel and evil.
Rosenberg: so you want her to be worthy in the eyes of god?
C:yes, I love her so much, she must be saved.
Rosenberg: and having an atheist and a lesbian for best friends makes her unworthy? What makes you think so?
Damn, I’m just not good enough at this…
From the sounds of it, Carol is the more conservative family member. Who knows? Maybe Hank will back Joyce up when this finally unfolds into an argument?
So…is the eldest Brown child John (as written here) or Jonathan (as Jocelyn named him when talking to Ethan)?
Clearly he is John Jonathan
John Johnathan Johnboy Brown
Given that ‘Joshua’ was shortened to ‘Josh’ in the same conversation, I’d guess that John in this case is a nickname for Jonathan.
John is not a nickname for Jonathan, though. The standard short form of Jonathan (from the Hebrew Yehonatan) is Jon. John is an actual whole name in its own right (from Yehohanan).
It is nonetheless very common to use John as the shortening, probably because it looks ‘better’/more traditional (plus in this case, John was an apostle).
It most definitely is a nickname for Jonathon. It’s also a name on its own. It may not be the “standard” one, whatever that means for nicknames, but it’s definitely used as one. The rules for nicknames aren’t that formal.
Jon and John are spelt the same though, and as John is prevalent as a name in its own right many spell the abbreviated form of Jonathan with the ‘h’ as well (you also see misspellings like ‘Johnathan’ for the same reason).
This bring me to question that was on my lips for a while.
If Joyce’s parents are fundies, why did they sent her to non-christian university in the first place? Surely they’d disapprove their daughter attending classes like gender studies?
Answer could always be “or there would be no Joyce in the comic”, but I am curious to see if we’ll be provided with in-universe explanation.
It was the same College they went to so they thought it would be safe but since timeshe have changed immensely they’re rethinking it.
This and what Ben said. They went there and they thought Joyce would be “strong enough” to resist any “corruption” it may have gained over the years and now that she is very slightly evolving in her faith, they have split views on that “strength”.
A lot, at least as best as I can figure, boils down to why Joyce was sent to IU. She was sent there to find a husband. It’s possible that they hoped she’d be in, out, married and pregnant too fast to be too greatly affected by the experience of being in a very, very secular environment.
I though that in her parents minds she’d be more likely to find appropriate husband at christian university, because of its better believer/infidel ratio.
Her dad went to IU, so that’s obviously where all of the “good” men go. (Trust me, the conservative mind is sometimes hard to follow. :/ ) Same reason my mom kept telling me I had to find a man who “worked hard to provide for his family” (ie., nothing beyond 6th grade in the way of formal education, but held general labor jobs all his life) while at the same time telling me I was never going to find a man like my dad because there were none other as good as him in the world. :p
Which, I was happy to ignore, because I love my dad, but I wanted nothing like him in a spouse. :p
I may be reading too much into this but, to me, Joyce looks terrified in panel 6. Remember, this is PTSD!Joyce; the last time she encountered a parental figure who wanted to ‘squeeze’, he shoved a hunting rifle in her face.
Carol is either ignorant of or uncaring of how this has affected her daughter. However, it is quite possible that Joyce may interpret Carol’s words as a specific threat to her and Becky’s safety. It’s quite possible that, fearing assault or worse, she’ll run. Do any of her siblings live nearby? It’s possible that Hank is in for a day of careful negotiations, trying to convince his youngest child that she is still safe in her childhood home.
And now I kind of really want this to happen.
Make this not only Joyce’s (and Becky’s) problem. Make her parents also sweat, realizing just how low a priority the secular college really is compared to the truly awful things going on.
I think you’re right on all of that. This is traumatizing for Joyce and triggering a whole lot of badness. It’s also yet another spike on the lie that her parents have sold her. Oh, did we tell you that we love you and we’d die for you?
Yeah, well, you almost got killed by someone you grew up with and we’re more concerned with whether or not your lesbian friend or your atheist friend are making you slightly less the “correct” brand of Christian.
And it’s building on the microaggressions that Carol has been dumping on Joyce and Becky since they arrived. She has completely forgotten the reason they initially invited Joyce over in lieu of this moral panic about her “lesbian friend” and in doing so has neatly erased the trauma of it as something to not even give a fuck about.
That, combined with the passive threat to remove her from her entire support network, and the reminder of the last time a parent from her culture squeezed (as you noted) all adds up to one hell of a good morning PTSD attack and I would not be at all surprised if she just wants to run and run and keep on running as far as her legs will take her.
Carol probably thinks that Ross wouldn’t have shot Joyce because she’s a “good girl”
So Carol has to lose. The interesting bit is how and what the ramifications are.
Carol does sound a bit like Tarkin.
Becky is, of course, doubling up as Han Solo.
Fanart or it didn’t happen.
ohhhhhh my god oh my god oh my god
…dina as leia, joyce as luke, becky as han solo, ethan as chewie
the gay bandits on the gay millennium falcon gayly going about their business
This comic would be easier to parse if their names didn’t all start with “Jo” – damn you willis!
It’s beginning to read a bit like War and Peace, where the patronymics and the French names get bandied about.
I have two brothers: Jon and Josh. My name is Joey. Confusion and shenanigans are abundant in my house.
I can only imagine it’s worse for the Brown household; they have four!
Joyce’s house looks like a lot The Simpsons house. Is that just a really common house design in The States?
What does the scouter say about Joyce’s God wrath level?
It’s over 9000!!!!!
Carol is not too familiar with the philosophical musings of 38 Special, I see. “If you cling too tightly…”
Seriously though, the only reason that shiz worked on me was Eldest Child Complex. My middle siblings bucked, HARD. It was a phase with my brother, but the older of my two sisters is lucky to be alive, and both parents have openly acknowledged “clamping down” did not help.
same re: eldest child complex. i put up with way too much of that shit trying to be there for my younger siblings.
I know this is evil, but I SO want to see a strip that goes:
“Mom, you said you would die for me. Is that still true?”
“Yes, Joyce. I would.”
“Then please die so you can get out of my life.”
That would be quite possibly the most out of character thing Joyce could do short of murdering someone. (other continuity notwithstanding.)
So, something happened with Jordon? Josh/Jocelyn mentioned before that Jordan was ‘too Jordan’, is this where we begin to find out what that means?
Yep, the other shoe has dropped and hit Joyce over the head.
This is going to be Joyce’s true test. Does she let her parents dictate her life and how she is “suppose” to see the world or will she dig her feet in and stick with what she has learned from her campus life?
Wonderfully drawn.
happy leap day, everyone
Oh hey, it was a conversation like this that led me to end up at Bob Jones University! (sigh) What fun well-meaning loving over-protective parents can be.
-hugs-
bob jones is the literal worst.
whats the deal with bob jones university? i’ve never heard of it before.
bob jones is a very toxic conservative bible belt christian university. they release curriculum and are just…really terrible in a lot of ways. they also spent four decades blaming rape victims for getting raped apparently
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2015/3/30/bob-jones-university-sexual-abuse.html
Also banned interracial dating until 2000. Also seriously anti-Catholic, along with the more standard homophobia & racism.
They’re also big in conservative politics. Many Republican presidential candidates have spoken there or held rallies, including a forum a couple weeks back before the SC primary.
And I just have to point out, for the bit of me that’s still 12: BJU.
Despite the rules forbidding sex between unmarried students, I’ll bet that comes up a lot around campus.
somehow I am not surprised.
I never had personal experience with Bob Jones, I just had to use their terrible science curriculum at school.
First of all, hugs from a fellow BJU survivor.
Second, at least you were forced there. I was brainwashed enough to want to go there. Briefly, until my parents ended my academic dreams. To be fair, I would never have made it in academia with a degree from BJU in the first place.
Fun fact: Every semester, without fail, there would be a massive scandal where they’d catch kids being *gasp* homosexual with each other and kick them out. Turns out running a fanatical campus where any contact or affection toward the opposite sex is met with draconian consequences is not the best way to encourage heterosexuality. WHO KNEW!
Their Shakespeare productions and operas were pretty good though. You know. As long as you acknowledged that no good Christian could ever actually act as a CAREER.
i am having a bit of difficulty remembering which brother is which. John is the oldest, but was he the one in the military? and Jordan is the youngest, or is he a middle son?
i really shouldn’t, but i am just… i am ignoring that they think you can somehow become a lesbian by being friends with them. i am glad that at least Hank is advocating for Joyce… sort of. both of them seem to think the most dangerous thing about campus are atheists and lesbians. really the most dangerous thing are other christians or people pretending to be christian to hurt her.
Josh said he was the middle son. ((Yes, I know, she’s really Jocelyn, but I’m viewing this as an alternate-identity situation, like Bruce Wayne or Superman, so he was Josh and a he and a son for that moment.)) John’s clearly the eldest by this comic, so that makes Jacob the youngest son.
… I don’t know that any of them are in the military. I think that’s Danny’s older brother Randy.
And it’s kind of tempting to… not exactly ignore that, but just file it under “fundies so crazy” and not examine it further. Like trying to have a conversation with someone and deliberately never bringing up the fact that they’re an anthropomorphic avocado.
I believe it goes John->Jocelyn->Jordan->Joyce.
For being such a traditional, Christian family, Carol is sure not being the good little submissive wife she supposedly believes she should be.
She’s petitioning and suggesting to her husband in (what she thinks is) privacy and he hasn’t told her to be silent on the subject. It’s legit.
…. still pretty misogynistic, of course, but she has a teensy bit of freedom under doctrine, and it allows this.
I dunno. Saying “I want her AWAY from that campus” seems pretty demanding of a person who believes she should be “submissive.” But then it is text and I might be imagining a tone of voice that isn’t there.
You’re totally accurate. This is how “good, submissive Christian wives” who aren’t actually any of those first three things control the marriage.
Which sounds like a great way for women to get around the misogynistic rules, but in my experience it just leads to a lot of passive aggression and a really horrible home life.
I may be projecting here. 🙂
hank isn’t really being domineering either. she might just be stepping up to what she thinks he should be doing
I don’t have a whole lot of experience with Christian fundamentalist housewives, but I would assume that even they get to have a say in parenting decisions. They don’t actually live in the dark ages, even if it’s hard to tell sometimes.
Which I guess is my point. Hank is trying discuss the matter with his wife. A good, parental thing to do. While Carol is just not listening and making demands. I think Hank is trying to be a decent person with calm discussion but Carol just ain’t havin that shit.
I expect nothing from Hank and Carol and I’m still let down.
(Also, I really, really want to see Jordan now. Anyone who can rustle Carol’s jimmies is all right in my book.)
Call her out on it, Joyce. Call her out on it right now.
But that would derail three whole months of angsty storyline!
But but rebelling against elders.
Your avatar makes this comment so much more enjoyable.
Dangit Carol.
¨Fuck you mom, I’m running away back to campus and living there¨
“I’m going to make my own mom with blackjack and hookers.”
“You know what, screw the Mom!”
+1 internet to both of you.
I miss Futurama.
Thank you. Don’t think I’ve ever gotten an internet before. Any idea what the going exchange rate is on it?
Sometime in this cycle Willis draws Joyce’s “other Mother”.
You know, the one with the buttons for eyes?
I’m actually glad to see Hank is still, well, Hank. He’s trying to see where he can improve but he’s still surrounded by all the crap he’s learned, and he’s not going to immediately free himself from them because he came to the startling revelation of “gay people are okay i guess.”
Agreed. It’s better characterization. He is trying and he’s made some steps, but he still carries all those prejudices.
I’m still going to judge him for those failures, because he’s an adult and he’s failing his children.
Hank has learned from his mistakes with his older children. Carol is doubling down on her mistakes with them.
Children are what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans. Hank is adjusting his plans. Carol is reinforcing hers.
After reading through the comments, I just want to ask if everyone sitting up here in the bleachers is always 100% honest with your significant others, co-workers, and acquaintances, always standing up for what you yourselves believe is morally right, regardless of the possible personal consequences, when the conversation turns to such things and others express opinions that you disagree with.
I mean, I don’t, but I already have lots of other reasons why I’m not a good person.
Not always 100%. I doubt anyone really is. You pick your battles.
OTOH, defending your daughter’s homeless childhood best friend is one of those battles you do take on. She’s incredibly vulnerable, only a couple of friends away from being on the streets.
Not to mention screwing up your daughter’s life by pulling her from college to keep her from being exposed to atheists and lesbians.
Yep, this.
Picking your battles is normal, you should always judge what is worth the energy expenditure vs result.
Standing up for your daughter and her best friend is kind of one of those cases when it SHOULD be worth it for any decent person.
*gasp* I thought Joyce was a more prim and proper lady. How dare she gallivant about pantsless in her parents’ house. Such immodesty!
If they’re worried now, just wait until Joyce starting hanging around with Marcie…
…AND STARTS TO LEARN ASL!!!!
“Hank, look, it’s horrible! Joyce is making devil signs, like those heavy metal people!”
I hate fundies. Hate hate hate them. They do so much damage in the world and screw up their children.
FWIW, I have extreme doubts about the parenting skills of anyone who is able to, without a hint of hesitation, talk about ‘squeezing’ their children in any context except hugs. That is where you start talking about a routine of abuse.
Yep.
The thing I like about how we’re seeing Hank is he’s a different kind of realistic than Carol. (I know this is based on someone’s life, so I hope I’m not overstepping and bein too insensitive with this) but even when Hank was being welcoming with Becky and showing some acceptance, it didn’t feel entirely good. Like it wasn’t wholly reassuring because with parents, they’re never always a good guy or always a good parent. Sometimes parents, even good parents, make mistakes, and that’s normal because they’re people. And sometimes that line of good and bad with mistakes is too fuzzy, definitely too fuzzy to ignore.
In situations of complex domestic abuse, you can get parents like Carol who are more constant, and noticeably harmful, and they’re hard to deal with. And then there’s cases similar to Hank, who sometimes give a little, who can still have moments of good insight and parenting but still do what they do. Still socially closed off their children from the world, still love conditionally like Carol even if he’s willing to ‘accept losses’, from what I’m reading.
The fact that his main argument was ‘Joyce won’t’ and not ‘maybe Joyce can’ and how they all talk about Jordan is evidence enough where he draws the line. He may be less obvious and may be a little better than Carol, but Hanks always felt like he’d be another, different kind of hard lesson for Joyce.
There is a fine line between tolerance and acceptance.
it is a weird realization when you figure out that if you were gay your parents might take steps to cut you out of their life
Fucking preach. Coming out to my dad was one of the scariest moments in my life.
i’ve barely even been like “hey…guess what…i’m not conservative because republicans dont give a shit about what i care about…” and already i have my mom prodding me into giving opinions on donald trump and my dad forwarding me free conferences with michelle bachmann and lordy what fresh hells lie in front of me
*Appropriate gesture of support*
Like, I hate using the term “lucky” for this, because “not getting kicked out of my house because I like guys” should be like the single most basic tenets of society, yet here we are. I’m lucky because my dad decided that liking guys isn’t a reason to disown me.
thank you
i guess being able to say that you survived is being lucky??? however you managed to get there it still counts.
I DUNNO THERE ARE A TON OF DEAD PEOPLE IN THE WORLD
I find Hank loves Joyce enough to trust her decisions. He stands in his beliefs, but… he´s willing to survive between black and white, looking into the shades of grey in between. Sadly, he´s not strong enough to battle with Carol. Maybe the one who wears the pants in this marriage is Carol, maybe not. What i don´t like to think is if Carol does this out of true fundie beliefs, or maybe schadënfreude, or a certain unvoluntary bitterness … in the sense that she doesn´t want to see Joyce having a life different of the one she has (house wife lifestyle), while Hank, maybe being more forgiving and enabling, and perhaps, he would have no problem with Joyce being truly independent, perhaps. We will have a little backstory regarding Hank and Carol? Flashback style?
Huh. If Carol squeezes hard enough, she might create a Hank situation. Seriously. It seems to me that he is pretty close to finally taking a stand before he lets Carol destroy the remains of his family as well. And witnessing Joyce having balls is certainly part of that. He’s proud of her, and he wants to stay that way.
True colors revealed.
Wait – I’m trying to read all 531 comments, but I fall asleep halfway through. Has anyone, anyone at all, wondered whether Joyce wears shorts to sleep in – or if it’s just a shirt? It would change everything I know about this girl if she were not wearing pajama shorts under that shirt. EVERYTHING. Hoping someone more hardcore than me will link to a past comic where Joyce is shown getting out of bed? This. This is the question of our age. Until it is answered.
You’re looking for Joyce panty shots, in other words.
I’m just wondering why they made her sleep downstairs in the basement. Surely with Jonathan being married, Jordan off “being Jordan”, and the offspring they know as Joshua(Jocelyne) off on his(her) own, Joyce’s old room upstairs should have still been available.
i think joyce’s bedroom in this canon is downstairs. it’s a little more private, she gets her own bathroom, and now she gets to hear her parents talking behind her back in the kitchen. hooray.
She’s the youngest. There should be rooms upstairs probably, but it’s likely the basement always had her room, since the upstairs ones would be in use at the point where she started using her own (and it could only be a 2-3 bedroom house, meaning two or all boys might have had to share a room, but having Joyce meant putting up some walls in the basement since she was the ‘only girl’ and shouldn’t share with them.
that is also an excellent point.
that moment when the reader you know mostly as “Not All Christians” Guy asks creepy-ass questions about whether joyce is wearing fucking underwear
I choose to believe that special underwear is sold for that purpose and Joyce is wearing it only because she doesn’t know what it is.
Ha! Nice catch Mr. Willis. I am definitely “Not All Christians” guy. I guess it could be deduced from my comment that I’m looking for a panty shot. But you’d be reading too much. I’m just saying I’d be shocked if Joyce wasn’t always ‘appropriate’ in what she wears, even to bed. And I tried to do it in a way that sounded funny. And shocker: I failed and came across creepy! Huh, guess that’s why I don’t write webcomics and you do. Keep up the good work. I might disagree with the Christian portrayal at times, but it’s a compelling story and captivating characters.
I keep picturing Jordan as some emo/goth heavy metal biker type, just this collection of dark and so visibly against everything the Brown’s religion is
but Jordan could also very well be a completely average person who committed some minor “sin” that we all wouldn’t bat an eye at, but it’s a scandal talked about only in hushed voices, because that’s how this type of thing goes, really.
Jordan: *rebels* *has a “Best of Queen” CD in his car* *Carol faints*
I don’t know about CDs, but all tapes left in the car long enough become “Best of Queen” albums. Happened to me, back in the days of old when cars had cassette players.
see if you buy your car from a godfearing American the tapes turn into “Songs from Psalty the Psalmbook: The Remix”
or if you get your pastor to bless your car for the low price of $19.99, available now, pastors everywhere selling out
Slow clap for Good Omens reference.
The freakiest thing was that soon after I read that for the first time, I found a Queen’s Greatest Hits tape in my car. Not one I’d ever seen before.
hahaaha amazing
The thought came to mind today that maybe he’s off being a missionary in the developing world, and his parents aren’t happy with the idea.
ooooooooooh i do like that
like that would be a good way to reconcile “we don’t agree with him” with “he’s off being a good kid”
and then he would be off in another country so they would be free to miss him knowing he’s doing good work. it’s like if he was dead but happier
He converted to Catholicism, joined a mission, and cruises the back streets of Indiana on his Honda Rebel with the Nuns of Anarchy.
“brothers and sisters we must save fundamentalists from the horrors of Protestantism”
Jordan got really seriously fundamentalist.
Enough that Carol was looking at him and going “Whoa, chill out.”
he went full-on John the Baptist. moved to the desert and started eating nothing but honey and locusts. Carol refuses to smell him.
Can lesbians really seduce really straight girls just like that by being in their presence?
I don’t think that it’s a case of ‘seduce’ that Carol is worried about but the semi-mythical ‘infectious thought pattern’ – The idea that, just by spending time around Becky and Dorothy, Joyce will start behaving like Joyce and Dorothy.
The problem is that a lot of these groups regard homosexuality to be a conscious choice rather than anything else. They thus believe it is possible to proselytise someone into choosing to be homosexual, including through malign means, irrespective of any biologically-determined alignment.
D’oh! First paragraph, last sentence should, of course, end “Joycewill start behaving like Becky and Dorothy.”
it happened in a porno once so it must be true
Lesbians can cause tornadoes and earthquakes. Seducing straight girls should be easy by comparison.
And nuke closets from orbit.
You are my favorite. I shall kill you last.
Why no Ruth and Billie? I want to see Ruth crying on her knees, begging Billie for forgiveness for being stupid. I want to see Billie smiling softly, holding her tight and telling her that everything is gonna be alright. I want to see them forging an evil clever masterplan to get rid of Mary, so they can live happy forever. I want to see Ruth fighting her depression. I want to see Ruth telling Billie that she’s happy with her. I want to see Billie get a grip and stop lying facedown in a ditch. I want to see eternal happiness.
I too am a huge fan of Smart People Always Do The Right Thing.
Smartpacked! was pretty good, too. Especially the part where they left that drama tag alone.
I recommend “Excellent Content” by Jeff Jacks.
Do you mean Questionable Content by Jeph Jacques? You were close… (But i agree: Great comic as well).
oh god this comic hits way too close to home and is like. a million conversations i’ve never gotten to have with my parents because i know that if we did everything would be awful and i’d be kicked out of my home and lose everything
and i grieve the fuck out of that because it means that i can’t have a genuine relationship with my parents at all because i’m too afraid of what they would do when it came down to it. because control has become more important than love, so i chose fear and my freedom
and those are shitty choices
Those are shitty choices indeed. I hope you can get to a point where you’re independent enough from their support, so that their tantrum isn’t as big a threat to your life and education. And I hope they come around someday.
I’m just waiting for the subject of Ethan to come up. Last the Brown parents knew, Joyce was dating a nice celibate boy (I forget if they knew he is Jewish). What will they do when they learn that Joyce broke up with him around the same time Becky showed up? I doubt Joyce will tell them he’s gay too, because that would be the final nail in the coffin.
If it turns out Jordan had a child with a girl outside of marriage, I am going to die. Because that makes Joyce’s family almost a carbon copy of my best friend’s, minus birth order. Her eldest “brother” is actually a sister despite my friend’s parents’ intense denial otherwise, the middle brother is the perfect married one, the youngest brother was excommunicated from the family for having a child out of wedlock, and my best friend is the youngest and “only” (cis)girl. They weren’t home-schooled, but they did all go to a Christian college prep school and were raised in a fundie church (as was I). The only other difference is that my friend’s mom is the reasonable parent while her dad is the crazy one.
God asks for so little. Just fear him, love him, do as he says and he will be your slave. XP
no, that’s the Goblin King.
here to say that im 10,000% ready to fight joyces parents at a moments notice esp her mom
We all are. We can attack in an angry mob, Lord of the Flies style.
Honestly, I’m pretty okay with Hank. He’s trying to be accepting or Becky and hasn’t treated her any differently. Carol on the other hand…well, we’ll attack when the conch sounds
I’m willing to ignore Hank as long as he stays out of the way.
Joyce didn’t want them to know about the pastor’s son who nearly raped her because she was afraid they’d pull her from that school. So instead they’re going to extricate her because she’s mixing with lesbians. That’s irony for you.
I found this earlier and wanted somewhere fit to post it in the comments. It’s from a quiverfull community, not a Joyce one, but is about a Christian girl being raped and her parents’ reaction and definitely goes with Joyce in expected reactions.
http://www.hannahettinger.com/ir-joris-story/
The most fucked up thing about Joyce’s mom right now is that her daughter being chased around by a madman with a gun is the reason she wants to pull Joyce out of college.
Isn’t. Fuck! A madman with a gun ISN’T the reason she wants to pull Joyce out of college. Dammit, fingers, why you gotta mistype stuff.
Well, to be honest, since the madman with the gun didn’t go to the college, but in fact came from Joyce’s hometown and church, that probably wouldn’t have been such a great reason to pull her out either. Though if Carol had used that as a reason, it would have at least shown she cared about Joyce as a person and not as something to brag to her fellow church members about what a good, pure Christian daughter she has.
Number of consecutive days without Carol saying something horrible: zero.
Fuck this, what’s the point. *throws rest of numbered signs over shoulder, walks away*
That’s not quite fair. We just had a nice serious of strips without Carol saying anything horrible.
Admittedly, Carol didn’t appear in them, but still.
Whaddaya mean she wasn’t in those strips? She was right there, starring as “Ms. Not Appearing In This Strip”. It’s her best role!
I hope Jordan is cool because that’s my name and I want to be a Cool Character.
You might be in for a wild ride.
Plot twist: “Too Jordan” means that he was such a fundie that he scared Carol and Hank.
All socks need at least one hole. Or there’s no place to slip your foot into.
So all their kids are called John, Josh, Jordan and Joyce. I guess that’s the closest they could get to calling any child Jesus without blaspheming.
have i said how much i hate joyces mom?
and now i have to hate joyces dad too
DAMN YOU WEBCOMIC FOR TOYING WITH MY FEELINGS
cant we have just one good guy parent? please? does everyone have to be broken by life?……*whimpers softly* that would be nice…….in real life too…..
Well, it’s still not Walkyverse!Linda bad, (Although Toedad and Blaine get the edge in hateability for doing things that are within the realm of actual possibility, as far as sheer level of horrible parenting, Walkyverse!Linda beats them both by a significant margin) but she’s seriously getting up there in vileness.