That is exactly what’s going to happen and we all know it. We may actually only get back to this scene as they’re walking out of the restaurant (in 2 weeks or so because we have to check up on Raidah wearing a dress for the second time in her life). This is David “damn you” Willis we’re talking about.
I don’t x actoknife it but I legit bite them off one layer at a time. Despite having never noticed a difference in taste or texture. I also have unalterable rituals for eating various other candies.
No she is not. This clearly falls under Chaotic Good. She knows what is best for them both, and is using any means to get it. He is clearly trying to stay all paladiny.
Okay let’s start with paladins being Lawful Good and explicitly not allowed to lie. Next issue, it’s inherently selfish without malicious intent. She’s not doing this because it’s best for Jacob, although she might be telling herself that (hell, it might *actually* be part of her reasoning) but because it’s what SHE wants. Ergo, this is a completely Chaotic Neutral course of action.
I’m with you, Poskie. This whole little arc has been one of the most uncomfortable for me to read. Joyce has had no respect for Jacob’s current relationship, and until this strip Jacob hasn’t either. Just… really stressful to witness. I’d thought Joyce had had more character development away from these types of behaviors, and I’d thought Jacob had more ability to stand up for himself. I’m glad he finally called her out today.
It’s especially painful because Harrison seems to be very aware and very put-off by his little bro’s idolatry.
Jacob’s major weakness is not Harrison; Harrison is in Jacob’s corner, always. It’s the big, unrealistic idolatry image of Harrison that was implanted into Jacob, probably by his parents and made worse by Raidah.
But does he see it like that? People can be pretty bad at recall especially if it conflicts with their mental image of themselves.
Case in point: Joyce didn’t lie because she can be a fantasist at times, she told a tiny oopsie-doodle because she was drunk on baby. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t a big deal… Right?
They could have brushed it off like Joyce meant “girl SPACE friend”, as in platonic female acquaintance. Instead he went along with it, knowing full well that Harrison will meet Raidah later.
Is there a reason to believe Harrison WILL meet Raidah later? I don’t have perfect recall of why Harrison is here, but he might not get the chance to meet her.
Worse. By that point Harrison was obviously approving of Joyce-as-girlfriend and since Jacob didn’t want to admit he really had a checklist girlfriend …
You know it never struck me that he hadn’t said anything to Harrison about Raidah. But I’m going to chalk that up to anxiety over being judged for his choice. Telling someone about a friend is a lot easier than telling someone about your significant other, or at least it can be. I don’t know what are your guys’ thoughts on this?
I also don’t know that he told Harrison “all about [Joyce].” He had mentioned her name in connection with a newsworthy event. Now, that is apparently more than he gave on Raidah, but it seems like Jacob hasn’t actually shared that much about his life in general.
Well he apparently also hasn’t said anything about her? Because “my girlfriend” ought to be followed by literally any attributes? Like “my girlfriend is prelaw?”
Yeah that’s very right. Way easier to tell people about friends. Because friends can just be “these people seem nice and I like hanging out with them” whereas you invest a lot more of yourself in your choice of significant other. It makes you more vulnerable to talk about an SO.
But telling somebody so little about your partner that they think you just haven’t mentioned that the “compelling”, quirky, sweet bad-ass you’ve told them about *is* the new partner?
That’s literally just “oh yeah, have girlfriend. Details? You’re visiting soon, you’ll meet her” territory – either a complete lack of enthusiasm (i.e. “this girl meets my checklist of requirements, she’ll do”) or “she is such a left-field choice I’m hoping that when you meet her you’ll see why I’m crazy about her; if I try describing her I won’t do her justice”… I think Raidah may be the former and Joyce could convincingly be the latter…
Not saying her behaviour in this arc is OK, but I do think Joycob could be fantastic…
It took me a while to tell my mom about my college boyfriend (which became my first real relationship) whereas I talked about my roommate and people I’d met in class all the time. Talking about my S.O. felt like higher stakes and was a source of anxiety for me because I had barely dated before college. And this is taking into account the fact that my mom is just about the most nonjudgmental person I’ve ever met. Not sure that’s true of Jacob’s family,
And yes, given that Joyce was involved in a newsworthy event so it would make sense for Jacob to mention her. Heck, the story may even have showed up in local papers.
I like that Jacob is starting to call out Joyce on her behaviour and I hope he’s not falling back into “nice guy” behaviour; I’d rather his expression in the last panel is him trying to figure out how to tell Joyce that he doesn’t know if they can be friends anymore.
IF Jacob is realizing he has feelings for Joyce, okay. But this is NOT the time or place to have that discussion. He is still involved with Raidah and he has been behaving very badly himself. I know Raidah isn’t the most-beloved character, but this entire situation is cosmically unfair to her. I really respect Willis’ skill as an artist, but I am SO sick of the “my girlfriend is a b-word so it’s okay that I hooked up with someone else behind her back” rom-com trope.*
*I don’t know for sure that is where Willis is going with this – he’s very good at subverting expectations – and please note that I am not trying to be offensive. I’ll have to wait and see where this storyline goes.
This is kind of a tangent, but as I was getting ready to type “Raidah is my favorite of the minor antagonists” I had the thought: “not that there are many of them”. Raidah is interesting to me specifically because as awful as she has been, it’s a low-stakes, average every day life sort of awfulness which I actually find much more engaging than the murderous mayhem of Ross & Toe-Dad. (Others disagree, I’m sure, but that’s one of the things I like about DoA, that there is so much variety in the storylines.) I think that Willis has been able to make a character like Raidah, who we basically only ever see in opposition to one of the major characters, feel developed enough for people to have strong feelings about her is a good sign.
One of the reasons I’m inherently skeptical of the romcom genre as a whole is just HOW often we’re expected to root for a character who engages in all kinds of shady, inappropriate, and sometimes outright horrible behavior just because the object of their affection is romantically involved with someone who is Absolutely Awful. I really don’t think that’s where this story is heading, though – my suspicion is that Joyce, Jacob, and possibly also Sarah are all going to end up with a lesson on owning your feelings. I wouldn’t mind seeing Raidah get some positive growth out of this storyline, too, but I think that level of development is mostly reserved for the main cast.
So far as I can remember, Raidah isn’t even all that awful. Like, the most she has done has been what:
i) held a grudge with Sarah about Dana
ii) been condescending to Dina
iii) been a bit obsessed with her image wrt things like Harrison visiting, or being elitist about her major vs Joyce’s
(i) might not even be wrong, given that we only know Sarah’s side of the story, and it sounds like Raidah has talked to Dana since and Sarah hasn’t, so there could be a lot we don’t know. (ii) was bad, but I don’t think done intentionally or with malice–it’s just kinda a typical pitfall a neurotypical person can fall into, and she immediately afterwards rebukes her friend’s more overt ableism. (iii) is again a typical pitfall.
So unless I’m forgetting something big, Raidah is less “awful” and more “is a normal 19-20yr old with normal room for moral growth”. She’s probably a better person than a good chunk of the main cast.
Well, you’re kinda watering the whole Sarah thing down. It was a whole harassment/bullying campaign. Our literal first introduction to her was telling Sarah to die.
Thank you, and I’d like to point out that Raidah went out of her way to do so. She was shitty at the mall, but outside of how she treated Dina (obligatory… You know what I mean) her behavior made sense for a surprise encounter. But Willis put an ambush as her Establishing Character Moment and she’s safely been a villain the entire time.
IMHO we don’t have enough context to judge the Sarah situation. I think that Sarah missed some context as well, based on raidah’s last comment about how said friend is miserable I fear she may have abusive parents and now be trapped in a worse way.
I genuinely don’t consider Sarah’s actions to really be purely good and I think there could have been far better ways to handle it.
And with dina again we know dina isn’t what raidah thought she was, but raidah believed she saw a vulnerable individual with a toxic individual and tried to warn her.
I hate the way raidah treats Jacob. She hasn’t even met Harrison and still judges Jacob as less than he is and acts like Jacob has SK much to love up to. Now that wr *know* Harrison? That really gets under my skin.
Even if she’s just feeding off Jacobs insecurities? That’s a shitty thing for a girlfriend to do.
Tl;Dr: I do consider there to be grey area in those things.
I find it easier to mention my bf to people and it is something I do far more often than I mention friends but to family it can be tougher. At the same time though, if said family member was coming to meet said partner, not even mentioning their name beforehand does not look good and it looks less good when you have specifically shared a friend’s name but not your girlfriend’s name.
He’s not worried that Raidah will show up because Harrison arrived earlier than he was supposed to. Raidah was expecting to have dinner with them, not brunch, so she’s probably in class or in her dorm right now.
I would counter that she’s not saying it’s all his fault, but pointing out at this point he’s complicit in the lie. He’s angry with her, but it would have taken a second to say “There’s a misunderstanding, Joyce isn’t actually my girlfriend.” Instead, once he realized Harrison liked her, he continued with the lie, doubling down by helping her come up with a plausible(ish) reason for what she was attempting to convert Ethan towards. Yes, she’s wrong, but so is he
I’m not saying that Jacob is completely free of fault here, there’s plenty of that to go round. Joyce is trying to say that all she did wrong was to simply say she was Jacob’s girlfriend because of baby, whereas she continued that lie throughout and doubled down when cornered. And that is just today. All of this train wreck today is because of Joyce’s lie, and when she is finally called out on it her retort is “I was only allowed to get away with this because you didn’t describe Raidah in full details to Harrison and went along with my bullshit plan.” She’s not accepting any sort of blame here.
I dont think shes deflecting the blame, but she is certainly giving Jacob something to think about, if finds himself far more comfortable talking about joyce and not saying a word about his actual girlfriend he may need to rethink some things.
Not saying joyce is right to have pretended to be Jacob’s boyfriend in the first place, but I certainly dont think shes deflecting blame, since Jacob went along with it.
I don’t really see the guilt-tripping here, Joyce wouldn’t have anything to gain from doing that. And it’s a pretty legit question, why DID he go along with it, he really didn’t have to.
‘Oh, well you could have stopped it at any time! But you didn’t, so clearly this is on you.’
Notice the complete lack of guilt on her face. She doesn’t think she’s doing anything wrong here – remember she still believes in ‘True Love!’ and that the ends justify the means.
I’m never going to be able to read faces the way you people can. I can’t get “complete lack of guilt” off a real person’s face, let alone a 2d hand-drawn one.
Fundamentalist upbringing. Like, God loves us all, and his representatives love us, so the guilt-tripping and emotional manipulation the representatives used to make sure I love God must also apply to other loving relationships.
Please remember: The Willis has large buffer. Any coincidence with topical events (including the comic section) is because the world reads DoA, not because DoA reads the world.
Like, yeah, her impulsively saying she is Jacob’s girlfriend is obviously wrong, but Jacob did decide to go along with it. It’s hard to think on one’s feet but if I didn’t want a friend of mine to be misinterpreted as my S.O. but without embarrassing my friend or making them feel TOO bad (because let’s be real, Jacob is a soft boi he doesn’t wanna hurt Joyce’s feelings) then he could have easily shrugged it off as a joke. “Haha it’s a running joke, ‘I’m totally his girlfriend haha not’, it’s kinda weird but you had to be there…” like, literally ANYTHING besides going along with it would have been fine. Awkward, sure, but the key to getting away with something like that is to act confident/sure of what you’re saying. And what’s Harrison gonna say, “oh whoops I kinda thought she was your girlfriend, my mistake. Where’s the lucky gal?”.
So, much as Joyce deserved being called out for that, she’s right to point out Jacob rolling with it. As much as I dislike Raidah, I do feel a bit bad for her that Jacob didn’t even mention her name to his brother. And, of course, that he ended up going along with this. Raidah isn’t a good person, but this is not how I wanted those two to break up, you know?
Veeery telling. Not gonna lie, if I’d been looking forward to introducing my family to my significant other only for my friend to intrude on the situation and somehow lie that they were my significant other instead, I don’t care how much I wanted my family’s approval. I’d immediately be upset and annoyed with my friend. Maybe in front of the family I’d try to let them down easy/brush it off as a joke so they don’t look crummy, but in private I would tell them off and I’d immediately start looking for my real significant other so they can meet my family proper. Anything less would feel gross and awful towards the person I’m supposed to be in love with.
I don’t think the point here is to steal/get Jacob but to point out he can’t pin all the blame on her, when he has willingly been complicit and his feelings, words and actions are not in alignment about this situation.
No, that’s not Joyce’s point. Joyce’s point is to break them up and have him start dating her. That’s been Joyce’s goal all along – well, since she stopped pretending it was to get him for Sarah.
This is definitely a big ol’ oopsie-doodle, but I have to admire Joyce’s directness here (as the least emotionally-direct human being in the world). And… like other people have said, she does have a point about asking why he’s going along with it.
Yikes. Joyce may be my favorite character, but I think we just stepped from “wonderful, terrible impulsive decision-making” to “deliberate, thought-out scumbaggery”.
Howso? Like, she’s using this opportunity to point out something odd on Jacob’s part, sure, which is opportunistic, but it doesn’t retroactively mean she didn’t initially make a mistake.
And it’s not even that unusual. You’re friends with the girl who punched a shooter? Why wouldn’t you tell people? Meanwhile, girlfriend who you’re still not 100% sure with since she just ‘ticks the boxes’? Of course you might be a little anxious about telling people all the details unless you’re sure it’s a good thing.
Because clearly Jacob doesn’t want to call her out on her lies because it would humiliate her. He doesn’t want to be that cruel.
But he’s not her boyfriend. He’s taking a risk — of making Raydah angry, and lying to his family. He’s doing that to protect her, because he’s a nice guy.
But she’s not apologetic. She’s not understanding the horrible position she’s putting him in. She’s deliberately exploiting his kindness. She’s using him. She’s manipulating him.
And while Raydah might not be a good match for Jacob, he can’t get into a relationship with Joyce on this kind of footing.
Honestly, just consider what you yourself wrote. Nice guy or not, Jacob is taking a risk, for JOYCE, that inherently places his girlfriend lower on his ‘totem pole of importance’ so to speak. Raidah has been looking forward to meeting Jacob’s brother, and Jacob lets Joyce ‘steal’ that moment because…he’s nice?
I mean, he’s a very nice guy, but there’s nice and then there’s “maybe he has conflicted feelings for Joyce that inherently butts heads with his feelings for Raidah”. Joyce is apologetic in the sense that she immediately tried to run away only for Jacob to continue the facade.
I understand that Jacob doesn’t want to humiliate her, but he then can’t exactly act like he was completely powerless. He made the decision to play along for Joyce’s sake. He needs to re-assess why that is. Why he’d give Joyce priority over his girlfriend. Because that is an important question, no matter which way you slice it.
You’re not the first to argue that her trying to run away when Jacob arrived was somehow redeeming, but really I think she was just trying not to face the consequences, not to make life easier for him. Sre, that would have been a consequence of it, but I feel that’s not what she was trying to do.
I’m not arguing that her trying to run away is redeeming. That’s not even the point of my argument here. I’m saying her attempting to run away is her being apologetic about the lie, in that, she obviously had no intentions of keeping up the lie. She realized she made an impulsive lie and wanted to put the kibosh on carrying it out after that point.
Does this mean she was also trying to escape the consequences? Yeah. People can be apologetic because they don’t want to face consequences. Makes it less genuine but I think it’s nuanced for Joyce to 1) realize immediately she fucked up and 2) wanna immediately escape the consequences. You can do both. …Also, calling what happened in these last few strips a ‘crime’ is kinda extreme, my dude. (directed to thejeff).
However, thejeff is also right that Jacob going along with the lie is not entirely due to him just being nice. I mostly leaned on the nice angle because I was going off of nlips argument that Jacob was being nice to Joyce only for Joyce to be unappreciative. Again, this is a situation of nuanced emotion. Does Jacob want to avoid humiliating/hurting Joyce’s feelings? I believe he does, since he tried to help her lie regarding Ethan and didn’t immediately call her out on this lie in front of his brother.
However, is he also going along with the lie because he wants to impress his brother who has immediately taken to Joyce? Yes. I think the comments section and, heck, people in general, would benefit from realizing that people don’t always do things for just one reason. There’s usually nuanced, multiple emotions behind a decision. So yes, Joyce can be apologetic while also trying to avoid the consequences of her fuck up. And Jacob can be attempting to avoid humiliating his friend while also trying to gain his brother’s approval.
I don’t think running away needs to be apologetic at all. Sometimes it’s just running away.
And she didn’t immediately realize she’d fucked up and not try to keep up the lie. She sat and talked to Harrison for a couple of strips until Jacob showed up. Then she ran away, because she didn’t expect him to keep up the pretense. Even more so when she tried again to leave last strip. That’s just leaving Jacob to deal with the consequences while delaying them herself.
Thus “fleeing the scene of the crime” – which is a metaphor, not actually calling it a crime.
The point is that her attempts to get away don’t help her case. They don’t count as apologies. Actual apologies and attempts to make things right count.
I do agree that both of them have multiple motivations behind these bad decisions. I don’t think Joyce is actually being deliberately manipulative here. She’s just floundering around trying to deal with her original impulsive bad decision without actually facing the consequences for it.
Jacob’s not just going along to avoid humiliating Joyce or even because he really does have feelings for her, but because Harrison approves and gives the impression he wouldn’t approve of Raidah (checklist girlfriend).
But he says she’s a friend, but he says she’s just a friend…
Teasing aside, there is some truth to this, it is kinda weird Harrison knew Jacob had a girlfriend, and absolutely nothing about her. I know people handle things differently, but I’ve been in love. Currently, if I’m being honest, and the kind of people I’d tell that much, I have a hard time stopping it at that, you know? Like, I’ll gush and gush, because damn, is it nice to talk about someone you’re passionate about.
But, that’s not everyone, I will concede. Still, that is mighty strange to not tell him damn near anything.
Questions–is Jacob not that happy being with Raidah?
Would he and Joyce be happier together and a better fit?
Did he unconsciously lick (PICK! PHONE!) Raidah out of some brother approval list criteria?
What’s with Raidah’s “do your best or your brother won’t love you” manipulations?
I don’t think Jacob has a prayer of just swapping girlfriends right here and now. And he could kill this whole line of thinking with a single sentence. But he hasn’t said that sentence yet, he doesn’t want to.
If anything, maybe he’ll say “I gotta think about this”, and take a long look at his Raidah relationship, maybe break up with her if he’s really not happy, and maybe at some point after that, try a date with Joyce and see if he likes her for real.
Or if he’s against it, he can end the charade anytime. So could Joyce. They don’t quite want to yet, maybe next strip.
It wasn’t subconscious. He has literally stated before that Raidah was an item to item match for what he was looking for and that he has a checklist just a few strips ago because his brother had one. His search for brother approval could not be more conscious and on purpose.
Still is. He’s just found out that checklist he’s using doesn’t match what his brother would really approve of. And Joyce does, so obviously he should switch to Joyce to win Harrison’s approval by proving he’s not trying to win it.
Man, those oopsie-doodles can be a doozy. And yeah, I think that, aside from the initial impulsive mistake, the reason a characteristically honest Joyce hasn’t fessed up to Harrison yet, was that she herself was uncertain about Jacob’s intentions. Jacob certainly sent mixed signals at times. At the risk of redundancy, I’d note that this webcomic isn’t titled “Smart and Healthy Decisions of Age”.
Joyce still has the idea that, because she and Sarah think that Raidah is wrong for Jacob, and because from what she (and we) have seen of Raidah, she’s not a very nice person, it’s ok to try to influence Jacob to dump Raidah. That’s wrong, and I hope she doesn’t succeed, and that she has an epiphany about this kind of behavior.
This is the bit of indoctrination that is likely to be hardest to break.
She’s doing the same thing Toe Dad is. Using her belief in God to justify selfish actions, because if she’s meant to be with Jacob then she’s acting on gods will and any action she takes is morally justified.
An outsider can easily say how gross and oopsie-doodled that is.
But it FEELS SO GOOD. Being able to get your way and genuinely, deeply believe that you’re RIGHT because of a divine higher power?
That’s a bit of indoctrination that is REALLY hard to break. I hope that she’s able to because it’s vital.
Or at least in the ways that Joyce has gone about it and with the end goal that Joyce has.
You could reasonably share your concerns about why the girlfriend isn’t nice.
Its not so much that he should break up with her because she’s not a good person, as its “so he becomes available to me” that is the wrong thing. Joyce doesnt want Jacob to break up with Raidah for his sake, she wants it because she feels entitled to have him and that is so many levels of wrong.
Consent matters. Even if Joyce had evidence Raidah was physically abusive, emotional manipulation and underhanded bullshit is still toxic, unacceptable crap.
People are allowed to make bad decisions and undermining them like this is just shitty.
A good friend should express their concerns to Jacobs face.
If Joyce genuinely thinks raidah is bad for Jacob then she should say “Jacob, I’ve noticed some things about how Raidah treats you and I find it concerning”.
If you just think your friend has a healthy relationship but could have a better relationship with someone else? Not your call.
Because that’s not *your* call, and Joyce is going about it in a sneaky, underhanded way. She’s not talking to Jacob about how she feels she’d be a good fit, she’s just decided for him she’s the better fit, and then lied to get close to his brother (his weakspot)
I don’t care if you don’t like Radiah, -I- don’t like Radiah, but this not okay.
Yes, This. She should not even be talking to him about dating him, even if she went about it in an honest way, and this way wasn’t honest. He’s in a relationship. Maybe it’s the wrong relationship for him. maybe he’s even realizing this. But until he actually breaks up with Raidah, he’s off limits romantically to Joyce, and she shouldn’t even be talking about it to him. It’s his decision to make.
What I enjoy about this story line’s comments is how the camps clearly break out. The Lawful camp is all “Joyce said an Untruth! SMITE her!” But Neutral and Chaotic are like “Hold up, no bigs, let’s see how this plays out.”
Even Lawful Evil is like “She never said ‘I am his girlfriend’, she merely said the word ‘Yes’. That could have been an unrelated exclamation ipso facto ‘Yes! I got see a baby!’ and it is not her responsibility to clear up any incorrect conclusions Harrison misinterprets from said exclamations. “
Joyce, is it not conceivable that he “went along with it” because he didn’t want to humiliate you in front of someone else? And also, yes, because he wanted to keep his brother’s approval. But neither of these things is evidence of an attraction. And talking to his brother about a friend in the news while waiting for the right time to introduce his actual girlfriend is pretty weak evidence as well.
I’m not arguing for a strong attraction, and letting her down easy could well be one of his top motives. Surprise at the sheer Audacity of the situation and Harrison’s presence were likely both major players, and those both got cleared up. My main point was that some people (Lawful Good mainly) find Joyce’s behavior completely inexcusable, but other Neutrals and chaotics and evils don’t feel the same way, somewhere from “you do you kid, good may come of this” to “go for it! Steal and conquer what is Raidah’s as much as you can get away with!” (Chaotic Evil)
It’s not inconceivable, but quite unlikely. It is far more likely he went along with it because Harrison voiced his approval of Joyce as Jacob’s girlfriend. He had every opportunity to shut it down and say “there’s been some sort of miscommunication”, but he didn’t. And he didn’t do it because he’s put his idea of Harrison on a pedestal and is convinced that is how he must be as well, and that if he is in any way different it means he’s worse. Anything that gets him out of that way of thinking is a good thing for that alone. So Joyce’s oopsie-doodle was a bad thing on account of being a lie, but if it gets Jacob to start considering what he wants and wants to be like as opposed to what he thinks he must be like and strive for it’s a good thing for that. It can be good and bad for different reasons.
And if you want evidence of attraction between Joyce and Jacob, they’ve been flirting with each other practically since they met. They have such great chemistry they don’t even need to try and hardly notice it themselves, it comes that naturally.
I’m hoping his silence is just him taking a moment to figure out exactly how to tell her no. Can you imagine how stressful it must be to be put on the spot like he was today? Definitely not supporting all of his decision making to end up in the situation, but I’ll cut him a little slack for not being able to come up with an immediate response to Joyce dumping some heavy emotional baggage on him out of the blue.
I think a missing variable is our knowledge of how happy (or not) he is with Raidah. If he was 110% happy there, Joyce would have been gently or firmly shut down long ago.
Not long ago. As far as I can tell, Jacob’s been essentially unaware until now. Affected by her flirting, but not aware that’s what she was doing or that he was responding.
Yes, she did a bad thing, Jacob went along with it instead of shutting it down immediately, and now good things (Jacob seriously evaluating what he himself wants instead of imitating an idolized version of Harrison) may come of the situation.
I don’t think Jacob would’ve gotten that wake-up call if Raidah had been there instead of Joyce. Harrison would’ve been nice and polite, and Jacob would not have caught on that Harrison was secretly wishing Jacob would go his own path instead of being dead set of following in Harrison’s footsteps.
Gee, it’s almost like things-are-complicated(TM) or somesuch.
jacobs face in the last panel is just: shit, she has a point and im cackling.
however this plays out is gonna be hilarious, but I do agree on some level with joyce- especially going back and realizing that harrison did indeed know more about Joyce than raidah.
Legit question: does Joyce have the language to own this properly?
Most of us who curse would call this a “fuck up”, which Joyce obviously cannot.
Joyce’s upbringing didn’t exactly teach boundaries and has way too much “I’m right because God” and not enough owning your mistakes to others and making a real apology. Which is a learned skill.
If Joyce had said “I got really distracted by the baby and Harrison assumed I was your girlfriend and then I fucked up by going along with it” – would we have such a negative response to her saying “I fucked up”? Most people take that as owning a big mistake.
I do totally imagine “made an oopsie-doodle” to be her version of “I fucked up”. Its not exactly a phrase we’ve heard out of her before.
Joyce has made some shitty choices here, but I feel like a lot of what’s happened is that she made one mistake (not correcting Harrison) and genuinely doesn’t have the tools to get herself out of it and make amends, which she has tried to do.
It’s been happening to a lot of people, these past several days. Maybe that’s why everyone seems to keep talking at/around each other, instead of talking to each other.
She doesn’t have to say “fucked up” in order to admit her mistake. She could say “messed up” or even “made a mistake”. These sound more serious and adult than “oopsie-doodle”. Not all adults say “fuck”, or would use it in every situation, but they manage to sound adult. (Don’t get me wrong. I have nothing against the word “fuck”. It’s one of my favorite words. But I know some people don’t like to use it, yet they manage not to sound like 5-year-olds either.)
You have a good point. I’m annoyed at her for not apologizing properly, but she might just not know how, while being aware that she did wrong.
I’m annoyed at claims she did nothing wrongh “because it might turn out ll right/because Raidah isn’t a good match for Jacob” though. That’s just coincidence, not justification.
Yet I also feel this doesn’t make her a monster. Just someone who acted like an idiot because it felt like a good idea at the time and she’s in love. Relatable. Still not ok.
Science DOES prove love makes you drugged and she’s a first time user (do crushes do the same thing? Might be second time). Quick! Get her medical intervention! Foot to mouth, STAT!
Maybe, if she followed up by apologizing and asking what he wanted her to do instead of trying to make it true by insinuating he really doesn’t like Raidah as much and thinks of her as more than a friend.
She’s doubling down on it, rather than backing off.
To listen to the comment section, you’d think “Stealing” someone’s bf/gf should be a capital offense… I don’t even consider it wrong at all unless it’s done through seduction. I know a guy who has been happily married for over 30 years who “stole” a girl from her fiancé. As if the woman (or Jacob in this case) is incapable of rational thought or making her own decisions.
There is a difference between stealing in the sense of what Joyce has tried to do which is flirt and compete with his current girlfriend (which undermines Jacob’s autonomy and freedom of choice from both parties and is just a plain disrespectful thing to do to a friend you know is in a relationship they seem happy in), and someone deciding ‘I actually legitimately like this person more than my current partner’ of their own accord.
There’s also a bit of doubt about the character of EITHER person that joins in a “stealing” dynamic. The “poacher” doesn’t respect what other people built so what else do they not respect? Why couldn’t they wait until it ran its course? Were they just waiting in the wings? Were they not honest about what the previous dynamics were to all involved? (Like Joyce…) OTOH: the “stolen” wasn’t ACTUALLY committed despite SAYING so and is easily led astray/what they say can’t be trusted (Like Jacob… talk to your gf first!). You declared intent and then took it back. You will never mean what you say. It’s awful all around to make that assumption about someone’s relationships, but it’s a bastardized version of legitimate worries about future patterns/thought patterns a person could possess and enact on you. Also, stop dibbsing people or thinking they can’t change… None of this is endorsement – just explaining why it’s a classic knee jerk and why these two characters are epitomizing why people think its bad, not why it can be harmless and natural.
Is there any actual evidence that Jacob and Radah are going steady or have even had that kind of conversation. If there isn’t an agreement then there is absolutely nothing wrong with dating multiple people and/or having multiple girlfriends at the same time.
We haven’t seen that conversation. Though there was the one about how Raidah would drop him if he cheated on her – though I suppose you could argue it wouldn’t really be cheating if they hadn’t formalized it. That didn’t seem to be how Raidah was thinking about it though. Either there or when she was squaring off with Joyce for “sniffing around her man.”
It’s pretty damn clear that Raidah’s not okay with it. There’s no indication that Jacob thinks of it differently. At the absolute best, they’ve completely screwed up communication about it.
Nothing wrong with poly/ multiple relationships etc. As for going steady – generally claiming someone as a gf/bf/so is that commencement. Going on a date with someone doesn’t make them the gf/bf/so fixture.
Saying Joyce did the wrong thing doesn’t mean we think it’s a capital offense, or that we think she’s an awful person or we hate her. Sheesh. If we like someone, do we have to agree with every single damn thing they do, not matter how silly or wrong?
Joyce is not a bad person! I do not hate her! If she were a real person I’d be happy to be friends with her! But she made a mistake here.
Am I the only one who thinks that Joyce is honestly asking him? His behavior has been confusing, to say the least. Joyce clearly realized that she was screwed as soon as she told her lie (thus all the fleeing), and out of nowhere Jacob just started playing along to the hilt. And Jacob’s been talking about her, not Raidah.
Saying this out of the blue like this is risky, but it’s laying the cards on the table. Perhaps she honestly wants to know? She does like him, and if he really likes her, that drastically changes how the immediate future is going to go.
I completely agree with you. Except… he might really like her _and_ not think it’s a good idea to start dating her soon (or maybe ever), for any of several reasons.
I don’t know if his last-panel expression is “Oh shit, you’re right” or “How do I put this, Joyce…”
I think you’re right as well. Joyce is asking honestly and not trying to manipulate him. What happens short-term is up in the air, but I think in the long term Jacob will be seriously thinking about what he wants to do and who he wants to be with. He already got one big wake-up-call with Harrison basically telling him “Don’t try to be like me, do your own thing! I’ll support you.” Now he’s getting a second one and I think he needed them both.
Yeah, she’s asking honestly, but so what?
She shouldn’t be. She certainly shouldn’t be right here and now, where she’s just screwed up and Harrison’ll be back in a few minutes. This is a time for apologizing to Jacob for putting him into this mess, not for challenging him about his actual girlfriend.
Yeah, she’s a messed up kid and it’s understandable. She’s not malicious, or even really manipulative, but she’s still behaving badly.
“Oopsie-Doodle” is a typically Joyce bit of nonsense-speech. However, I get what she’s saying. She’s saying that her brain jumped the tracks and that she really has no clue what she was thinking or is even entirely sure what she was doing!
Yes, except no. Because the next question is what the person in question is going to do about it.
What Joyce was going to do was leave, but then she was spotted and Jacob went and said “That’s… why she’s my girlfriend.” At which point what the hell is she going to do? Tell Harrison “actually no, I’m not Jacob’s girlfriend, I lied to you and now Jacob lied to you as well”? That would be even more fucked up.
Except as Callid13 says a bit further down, to interpret “girlfriend” as “friend who happens to be female” you need to ignore context and common usage of the word. “Girlfriend” has become the term for “female person you’re in a committed romantic and/or sexual relationship with”. The far more general term “friend” exists and applies to all genders. It’s even possible for a couple to be each other’s girlfriend/boyfriend but to not be friends, but hey that’s language for you.
Girlfriend is usually a person you have a romantic relationship with. Steady girlfriend is one where you have a commitment to the relationship. Otherwise, going steady wouldn’t be a big deal. I really wish people wouldn’t try to push words into having meanings they don’t have!
People don’t generally call someone their boyfriend or girlfriend anymore if there isn’t some sort of commitment. Before that, they tend to just say they’re seeing someone or they ‘aren’t official’. Going steady isn’t really something I’ve heard most people that age use anymore.
If what Joyce was going to do next was leave, she could have done that before Jacob showed. Or explained to Harrison. Or something.
She talked to Harrison, posing as the girlfriend, until Jacob arrived, then she tried to run away to avoid getting caught. (Like she tried to run last strip to avoid this conversation.)
Trying to run away doesn’t help her case.
You can still be held accountable while having it recognised you didn’t do it with a scheme in mind or fully think through why you were doing it. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I think “No clue” is a bit misleading. I think she knows perfectly well what’s going on. Her brain jumped track from “behave like a functional human being in a social context” to “Behave like the protagonist in a fatalistic romantic comedy.”
Her behavior makes perfect sense if you accept that
– Joyce and Jacob are meant to be together
– Jacob’s relationship to Raidah is an obstacle for Joyce to overcome
– The correct way to overcome this obstacle is through persistance, grit and staying true to herself.
– She will be rewarded in the end by Jacbo’s eternal love.
…basically, the exact romantic fantasy she has believed her entire life. Only, now she is trying to make it reality which is NOT a good track for her brain to slip to. “Oopsie-Doodle” indeed.
I’m still trying to dodge the dumpster fire that is the comments section, so I’ll just leave this.
Joyce fucked up first cause of baby induced brain fart.
Jacob enabled the fuck up and fucked up further.
Jacob is calling Joyce out on her fuck up.
Joyce is calling Jacob out on his fuck up.
They both fucked up. Simple as that. Stop acting like one is a saint and the other murdered your dog. They’re teenagers just becoming adults, the series is called DUMBING of Age, and shit like this is standard teenage drama. iCarly has done worse stuff than this. So, comments section, in the words of the Major: Contain. The Calamity. That is you Mammaries.
They definitely both fucked up. Much of the commentariat acknowledges that, even those who slant it towards one side.
Though I’d add that Joyce fucked up first more intentionally and for longer with her plans to break up Jacob and Raidah, first for Sarah and then for herself. I’m mostly disappointed in her, because I’d thought she’d given that up.
It’s those who think those fuckups are going to lead to romance and are celebrating that bother me. That’s not the character growth Joyce needs.
Joyce wasn’t drunk on baby, she made a very hastily-calculated move that intruded on Jacob’s life for her own gain. Jacob going along with it makes it a bigger deal because now neither of them can trust the other to be honest. Dumb teen shit is Walky breaking up with Dorothy because he didn’t want her to tell him how to dress. This is major life implications for the characters.
I do think it was impulsive, because it’s hard to predict it would have turned out even this well. If it was calculated, I can’t even imagine how she thought it would turn out.
OK, I will admit I was wrong… at least half wrong…
When Jacob said “She is my girlfriend” he didn’t mean it.
Darnit. I really wanted that to be the way it worked out.
I don’t know if his last-panel expression is “Oh wow she’s right” or “How do I explain to her that she’s wrong.” So maybe I was 100% wrong… but I’ll hold out hope until I see what he says.
God, I wanted her to be straight forward and tell Jacob she liked him and she wanted to date him, but it happening now is so gross. UHhhhgg it’s like a monkeys paw. Get Joyce just talking to him about wanting more but instead of a “I’ll accept if you say no but I think I’m better for you and I’d enjoy dating you, the option is there if you agree” it’s “I’ve way overstepped boundaries and spewed emotions at you when you had to react positively in front of your brother and am now deflecting blame”
I was really stoked for Harrison to get here because I also love Joycob and I was so sure Raidah was going to torpedo it all by herself, but Joyce beat her to the punch.
And I’ve just realised this whole arc is a remake of “What’s up Doc”, with Jacob as Ryan O’Neal, Joyce as Barbra Streisand, and Raidah as Madeline Kahn.
Of course as that film was a homage to the screwball comedy films of the 1930’s, it’s possible they’re both independently sharing the same tropes. 🙂
Legally, I qualify as 26 today. That’s an entire year longer than I thought I was gonna live without acting on the constant urge to an hero.
I’m still stuck working fast food, but at least it’s paying my part of the bills and feeding my hobbies. I finally found a D&D group that’s fun to play with, and it was basically a happy accident.
Most importantly, I’ve decided Dragon Ball GT is irreparably, permanently canon forever, and absolutely nothing on the entire planet can change my mind or the law.
Sorry Joyce but you’re on the wrong track here. Jacob probably didn’t tell Harrison about Raidah because he didn’t want his brother to disapprove of his choice, which would put a strain on his relationship with both brother and girlfriend. You, howver, are a friend. It was safe telling him about you because it’s “just” a normal friendship.
It was practically outright stated that Jacob started dating Raidah because she checks all the boxes on his list which he has because he thought Harrison would APPROVE of him having a checklist. Jacob’s main motivation is to be like his big brother and get his big brother’s approval, he was sure Harrison would approve of Raidah and he still didn’t tell his family anything about her beyond that she exists. I agree with some of the other posters further up who theorized that this is because he’s just not very passionate about Raidah. They are officially dating and he probably likes her well enough, but he’s not passionate about her the way he’s passionate about his friend Joyce. And Joyce is so much more interesting to talk about, too.
Imagine you have on the one hand “a person I’m dating because they fulfill certain criteria that make them a stuffy by-the-numbers lawyer”, on the other hand you have “a good friend I’ve got great chemistry with who’s really interesting and I feel passionate about”. Which of those are you more likely to talk about?
It also helps if that friend was involved in the biggest news that happened on campus while you were there, that probably prompted phone calls from every family member to check up on you.
And some people are reserved enough not to comfortable talking about romantic feelings with family members, even if they think they’d approve, but a casual friend with a news story hook?
I think there’s something to that argument, but it’s not nearly as definitive as some are taking it.
Joyce. No. Please. Trying to logic your way into being anything other than just a friend goes bad. I’ve been there. Lost a friend, got a flower pot thrown at me, wound up with a stalker. Admittedly, you have done your logic better….you’ll still rue this day.
Did the ex-friend throw the flower pot at you because if so that’s abuser behavior and you’re definitely better off without them around. You’d think “if we’re friends it wouldn’t have happened” but for people who would do that sort of thing, it will bubble to the surface eventually.
Too be fair. The flower pot was an unrelated event but DID happen on the same day and this is related in my mind. Lesson for the wise, never argue with frat boys while wearing your RA uniform.
You know the saying, “all is fair in love and war.” Honestly, compared to all the relationship drama at my co-ed college dorm (back in the day), this kind of thing is par for the course. I can think of numerous embarrassing/hilarious/shitty things I’ve done or had done to me, OR have observed happening among my friends and acquaintances. (Or hilariously shitty YMMV.)
I used to fantasize about writing a novel or a comic about all those crazy things that went on. Then realized it’s about what happens everywhere! Oftentimes, you have to make some shitty moves to learn life lessons. That’s the way it works!
What needs to happen is Jacob shuts her down, and their friendship is on rocky ground for a while, and then Joyce goes to Joe going “welp looks like you were wrong about me being able to get Jacob, and now everything is awful forever” because I want more of that sweet sweet Joe/Joyce time.
I wonder where Raidah is right now. It’s super unlikely that Jacob didn’t tell her that his brother was visiting, and now they’re eating at one of the most popular places on campus. I’m waiting for her to walk right in and get confused / confront them all about it.
I am really astonished that most of you are referring back to her initial idea of getting Jacob away from Raidah and are not willing to take the current situation on face value i.e. accept that Joyce hat a bad lapse of consciousness and said yes at the wrong moment and when Jacob played along, she didn’t get out when she could have. Now she down the rabbit hole and things start to look even more crazy than before.
It reminds me of a former friend who for ages though I was interested in her lover, just because I had mentioned once, when I met the not-then lover for the first time, that she might be interesting (and I lost interest over the next few weeks). They became a couple about half a year later, I had already forgotten about ever having been interested in the lover, but the idea persisted in my friends head for more than five years (their relationship lasted about two).
So, you know, people can change their minds and if you insist on furnishing them with ideas they have outgrown, you are not paying attention to what is happening. And it’s really annoying.
This is fiction. Nothing’s at face value.
She was focused on getting Jacob away from Raidah for weeks, only maybe kind of gave it up a couple of days ago, without any indication of her interest changing, basically confirmed her interest last strip and we’re supposed to pretend that has nothing to do with the current actions?
That she is busy with other stuff than ‘Raidah is an asshole and doesn’t deserve Jacob’?
Absolutely.
Did it just bowl her over that Jacob and his brother value her for the things she fears most that people will ridicule her for?
Absolutely.
Does being valued for things you fear make you unworthy of being loved make you want to hold fast to the people who value you with them? Sure.
So what?
Huh? What does this have to do with your previous post?
Are you now suggesting she was over her previous crush (mostly getting over it offscreen in a couple of days), accidentally called herself his girlfriend with no connection to that crush and now has a completely new crush that looks just like her old one? That we’ve got no evidence that she’s over, other than that she hasn’t brought it up in a couple days.
Joyce does not know how to speak honestly about her feelings, but couple strips ago was a pretty good start. With, of course, spectacularly bad timing.
Jacob hasn’t exactly been in touch with his own feelings either. She is pointing that out. Yes, everything is wrong with all of this, but she isn’t wrong.
on the one hand, joyce, chill. attacking his relationship isn’t going to make him want your thicc non pepperoni eating behind.
on the other hand, i kiiiiiiiiiiiinda see what you mean by that statement (not saying you are correct in saying it), he did tell his bro all about you, and never even mentioned his current girlfriends name, and he did go along with this (if for no other reason than to save you from embarrasement)
To be fair, he said he assumed she had a good caboose, meaning that he didn’t look at it. And the text is a little smaller than the rest, so I’m also hoping that this was more of an aside to his brother and not something just being exclaimed in front of Joyce.
But yeah, it’s still objectifying, and even between two guys talking alone it’s creepy.
Yeaaaaa, I’m with Joyce on this one. Maybe I relate because I’m terrible at communicating and have accidentally stated something I had no intention of saying when put on the spot. It happens. Jacob definitely did not need to go along with it and make it 5000x harder to play it off and/or come clean.
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“Look, I may be with the wrong person, but I’m with the wrong person in the RIGHT WAY”
…
“wait”
*consults checklist*
Holy shit I wish this forum had likes or upvotes to give you
Patreon does!
Faz is here with the checklist, and with many many charts.
Faz will now tell you all of the things.
Faz to the rescue.
Is not a post I expected to be making today.
A series of terrible life Joyces.
NICE
I actually slow-clapped.
Close the comments section, we have our winner!
https://xkcd.com/1454/
I can’t stop the thread, but, I can award you one The Internet. So here you go.
Victory is yours.
I really wanted to put a comment saying Joyce’d by his own petard…but yours was so much better. Cheers!
Give yourself credit, friendo, I think I like yours just a little more.
…
Perfect.
Claire approves of this comment.
Wow!
if we smashcut away to another scene tomorrow I regret to announce that I will lose my shit
You and me both
Agreed.
Yes
You know what, this wasn’t the comment I meant to reply to, but sure, why not.
So what you guys are saying is there’s a chance there will be lots of shit lying around tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up, I’ll wear galoshes.
You are commited now.
I always feel like I should be committed anyhow.
And yeah, if we smashcut away tomorrow, I too will flip my shit.
I can promise I’ll help you all try to find your shit again, but I won’t promise we’ll be successful.
Ditto.
That is exactly what’s going to happen and we all know it. We may actually only get back to this scene as they’re walking out of the restaurant (in 2 weeks or so because we have to check up on Raidah wearing a dress for the second time in her life). This is David “damn you” Willis we’re talking about.
And they are walking out of the restaurant with Joyce and Harrison holding hands and Jacob carrying Jamie.
Same here.
I wouldn’t be surprised if tomorrow’s strip cuts to another scene. Willis has done that before and he’ll probably do it again.
“And on this note, let’s have a week of guest strips”
Hello, I am here to check if you lost your shit.
Everyone was expecting Sydney to steal the baby, but they actually shaved off one of Jacob’s eyebrows.
They’re working on be subtle. We’ll see them yelling about it soon enough.
*being subtle
Yelling about being subtle or about subtly shaving of eyebrows?
Yes.
Joyce, you are being very bad right now. Un-good. No candy corn for you.
I actually like candy corn somewhat, but I feel like Joyce wouldn’t consider that a punishment.
Joyce probably likes candy corn. It looks like Becky.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/surprise/
She’ll eat it, but she needs to x-acto knife the colors apart, so it takes a lot of effort.
I don’t x actoknife it but I legit bite them off one layer at a time. Despite having never noticed a difference in taste or texture. I also have unalterable rituals for eating various other candies.
I bite off gummy bears in thirds and swap chest sections so they get sweaters
I find that both adorable and slightly disturbing.
If you drink I feel like doing that then infusing them with alcohol would be a great idea
No she is not. This clearly falls under Chaotic Good. She knows what is best for them both, and is using any means to get it. He is clearly trying to stay all paladiny.
Okay let’s start with paladins being Lawful Good and explicitly not allowed to lie. Next issue, it’s inherently selfish without malicious intent. She’s not doing this because it’s best for Jacob, although she might be telling herself that (hell, it might *actually* be part of her reasoning) but because it’s what SHE wants. Ergo, this is a completely Chaotic Neutral course of action.
Good points. Both of them. I concede the argument.
Jesus fucking christ, Joyce. I actually want to see Joycob be a thing but every word out her mouth is giving me the cringes.
Why? She did a dumb that started this but she’s not wrong.
Sometimes you just gotta shoot your shot, even if it’s slightly problematic
I’m with you, Poskie. This whole little arc has been one of the most uncomfortable for me to read. Joyce has had no respect for Jacob’s current relationship, and until this strip Jacob hasn’t either. Just… really stressful to witness. I’d thought Joyce had had more character development away from these types of behaviors, and I’d thought Jacob had more ability to stand up for himself. I’m glad he finally called her out today.
It looks like Harrison is Jacob’s major weakness, moreso than I’d thought before. He really can’t say no to him.
It’s especially painful because Harrison seems to be very aware and very put-off by his little bro’s idolatry.
Jacob’s major weakness is not Harrison; Harrison is in Jacob’s corner, always. It’s the big, unrealistic idolatry image of Harrison that was implanted into Jacob, probably by his parents and made worse by Raidah.
“wow the word idolatry sure is nice, what if I use it twice in uncomfortably close succession like the hack writer I am?”
Does look like it was needed, however. Seems like that last bit struck Jacob as a bit of a knife to the heart
She’s, y’know, not WRONG.
Why the hell doesn’t his brother know his girlfriend’s name? Or anything about her? At all?
And why does he know everything about Joyce?
DAMN
Mike drop.
KABOW.
Yo why are you dropping Mike? He’s trying to be better
**snerk**
Now I’m imagining Mike dropping from the ceiling Mission Impossible style.
Mike is already a perfect force of nature. How could he possibly be better?
No, Mike is turning over a new leaf. Don’t assume that means “better”.
It just means he’s starting from scratch.
I mean, she kinda has a point… Don’t think Jacob was expecting that insight though…
Unless that isn’t “blindsided” and it’s a “nope, you’re not my friend: friends don’t trick friends into lies”…
There was no trick though. She lied and then tried to bail, Jacob’s the one who chose to continue it this far.
But does he see it like that? People can be pretty bad at recall especially if it conflicts with their mental image of themselves.
Case in point: Joyce didn’t lie because she can be a fantasist at times, she told a tiny oopsie-doodle because she was drunk on baby. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t a big deal… Right?
She does have a point, Jacob went along with her lie instead of telling Harrison that Joyce is not his girlfriend.
They could have brushed it off like Joyce meant “girl SPACE friend”, as in platonic female acquaintance. Instead he went along with it, knowing full well that Harrison will meet Raidah later.
I want to have a girl space friend.
A sister from Arcturus, or Alpha Centauri. Or maybe just Mars.
FIGHTING EVIL BY MOONLIGHT
WINNING LOVE BY DAYLIGHT
The opposite of Mary:
Fighting heathens by moonlight
Drawing crappy Anime by daylight
Is there a reason to believe Harrison WILL meet Raidah later? I don’t have perfect recall of why Harrison is here, but he might not get the chance to meet her.
They’re meeting for dinner, later.
Jacob probably didn’t want to look bad in front of his brother, and didn’t like the way all of this was going to look to him if he told him the truth.
Worse. By that point Harrison was obviously approving of Joyce-as-girlfriend and since Jacob didn’t want to admit he really had a checklist girlfriend …
Of course, if we cut to Harrison and Jamie next strip, oopsie-doodle could well fit there.
Joyce, you may have a point, but you’re still so far in the wrong.
Yes, this.
She’s asking a perfectly valid question.
Gotta give her credit for keeping her eyes on the prize, though.
You just made me think of Mass Effect 2 Jacob.
First of all, how dare you? Second of all, what the hell?
You know it never struck me that he hadn’t said anything to Harrison about Raidah. But I’m going to chalk that up to anxiety over being judged for his choice. Telling someone about a friend is a lot easier than telling someone about your significant other, or at least it can be. I don’t know what are your guys’ thoughts on this?
I also don’t know that he told Harrison “all about [Joyce].” He had mentioned her name in connection with a newsworthy event. Now, that is apparently more than he gave on Raidah, but it seems like Jacob hasn’t actually shared that much about his life in general.
That was what I was thinking as well. And he might have spoken about “my girlfriend” without mentioning Raidah’s name.
Well he apparently also hasn’t said anything about her? Because “my girlfriend” ought to be followed by literally any attributes? Like “my girlfriend is prelaw?”
Yeah that’s very right. Way easier to tell people about friends. Because friends can just be “these people seem nice and I like hanging out with them” whereas you invest a lot more of yourself in your choice of significant other. It makes you more vulnerable to talk about an SO.
But telling somebody so little about your partner that they think you just haven’t mentioned that the “compelling”, quirky, sweet bad-ass you’ve told them about *is* the new partner?
That’s literally just “oh yeah, have girlfriend. Details? You’re visiting soon, you’ll meet her” territory – either a complete lack of enthusiasm (i.e. “this girl meets my checklist of requirements, she’ll do”) or “she is such a left-field choice I’m hoping that when you meet her you’ll see why I’m crazy about her; if I try describing her I won’t do her justice”… I think Raidah may be the former and Joyce could convincingly be the latter…
Not saying her behaviour in this arc is OK, but I do think Joycob could be fantastic…
It took me a while to tell my mom about my college boyfriend (which became my first real relationship) whereas I talked about my roommate and people I’d met in class all the time. Talking about my S.O. felt like higher stakes and was a source of anxiety for me because I had barely dated before college. And this is taking into account the fact that my mom is just about the most nonjudgmental person I’ve ever met. Not sure that’s true of Jacob’s family,
And yes, given that Joyce was involved in a newsworthy event so it would make sense for Jacob to mention her. Heck, the story may even have showed up in local papers.
I like that Jacob is starting to call out Joyce on her behaviour and I hope he’s not falling back into “nice guy” behaviour; I’d rather his expression in the last panel is him trying to figure out how to tell Joyce that he doesn’t know if they can be friends anymore.
IF Jacob is realizing he has feelings for Joyce, okay. But this is NOT the time or place to have that discussion. He is still involved with Raidah and he has been behaving very badly himself. I know Raidah isn’t the most-beloved character, but this entire situation is cosmically unfair to her. I really respect Willis’ skill as an artist, but I am SO sick of the “my girlfriend is a b-word so it’s okay that I hooked up with someone else behind her back” rom-com trope.*
*I don’t know for sure that is where Willis is going with this – he’s very good at subverting expectations – and please note that I am not trying to be offensive. I’ll have to wait and see where this storyline goes.
This is kind of a tangent, but as I was getting ready to type “Raidah is my favorite of the minor antagonists” I had the thought: “not that there are many of them”. Raidah is interesting to me specifically because as awful as she has been, it’s a low-stakes, average every day life sort of awfulness which I actually find much more engaging than the murderous mayhem of Ross & Toe-Dad. (Others disagree, I’m sure, but that’s one of the things I like about DoA, that there is so much variety in the storylines.) I think that Willis has been able to make a character like Raidah, who we basically only ever see in opposition to one of the major characters, feel developed enough for people to have strong feelings about her is a good sign.
One of the reasons I’m inherently skeptical of the romcom genre as a whole is just HOW often we’re expected to root for a character who engages in all kinds of shady, inappropriate, and sometimes outright horrible behavior just because the object of their affection is romantically involved with someone who is Absolutely Awful. I really don’t think that’s where this story is heading, though – my suspicion is that Joyce, Jacob, and possibly also Sarah are all going to end up with a lesson on owning your feelings. I wouldn’t mind seeing Raidah get some positive growth out of this storyline, too, but I think that level of development is mostly reserved for the main cast.
So far as I can remember, Raidah isn’t even all that awful. Like, the most she has done has been what:
i) held a grudge with Sarah about Dana
ii) been condescending to Dina
iii) been a bit obsessed with her image wrt things like Harrison visiting, or being elitist about her major vs Joyce’s
(i) might not even be wrong, given that we only know Sarah’s side of the story, and it sounds like Raidah has talked to Dana since and Sarah hasn’t, so there could be a lot we don’t know. (ii) was bad, but I don’t think done intentionally or with malice–it’s just kinda a typical pitfall a neurotypical person can fall into, and she immediately afterwards rebukes her friend’s more overt ableism. (iii) is again a typical pitfall.
So unless I’m forgetting something big, Raidah is less “awful” and more “is a normal 19-20yr old with normal room for moral growth”. She’s probably a better person than a good chunk of the main cast.
Well, you’re kinda watering the whole Sarah thing down. It was a whole harassment/bullying campaign. Our literal first introduction to her was telling Sarah to die.
Thank you, and I’d like to point out that Raidah went out of her way to do so. She was shitty at the mall, but outside of how she treated Dina (obligatory… You know what I mean) her behavior made sense for a surprise encounter. But Willis put an ambush as her Establishing Character Moment and she’s safely been a villain the entire time.
IMHO we don’t have enough context to judge the Sarah situation. I think that Sarah missed some context as well, based on raidah’s last comment about how said friend is miserable I fear she may have abusive parents and now be trapped in a worse way.
I genuinely don’t consider Sarah’s actions to really be purely good and I think there could have been far better ways to handle it.
And with dina again we know dina isn’t what raidah thought she was, but raidah believed she saw a vulnerable individual with a toxic individual and tried to warn her.
I hate the way raidah treats Jacob. She hasn’t even met Harrison and still judges Jacob as less than he is and acts like Jacob has SK much to love up to. Now that wr *know* Harrison? That really gets under my skin.
Even if she’s just feeding off Jacobs insecurities? That’s a shitty thing for a girlfriend to do.
Tl;Dr: I do consider there to be grey area in those things.
I find it easier to mention my bf to people and it is something I do far more often than I mention friends but to family it can be tougher. At the same time though, if said family member was coming to meet said partner, not even mentioning their name beforehand does not look good and it looks less good when you have specifically shared a friend’s name but not your girlfriend’s name.
Good point.
Its pretty normal to keep SOs close to the chest with family. Meeting family is considered a big step and commitment
The fact Harrison was supposed to meet raidah is what makes this all weird.
Why wouldn’t Jacob share a name and photo so he knows who he’s meeting?
Why would Jacob go along with this knowing his girlfirned iss jpposed to be there?
Why isn’t Jacob worried that raidah will show up at any second?
He’s not worried that Raidah will show up because Harrison arrived earlier than he was supposed to. Raidah was expecting to have dinner with them, not brunch, so she’s probably in class or in her dorm right now.
Panel 6 is Joyce hearing what she just said.
“Yes I may have made a mistake but it’s all your fault!”
Way to deflect blame there Joyce.
I would counter that she’s not saying it’s all his fault, but pointing out at this point he’s complicit in the lie. He’s angry with her, but it would have taken a second to say “There’s a misunderstanding, Joyce isn’t actually my girlfriend.” Instead, once he realized Harrison liked her, he continued with the lie, doubling down by helping her come up with a plausible(ish) reason for what she was attempting to convert Ethan towards. Yes, she’s wrong, but so is he
I’m not saying that Jacob is completely free of fault here, there’s plenty of that to go round. Joyce is trying to say that all she did wrong was to simply say she was Jacob’s girlfriend because of baby, whereas she continued that lie throughout and doubled down when cornered. And that is just today. All of this train wreck today is because of Joyce’s lie, and when she is finally called out on it her retort is “I was only allowed to get away with this because you didn’t describe Raidah in full details to Harrison and went along with my bullshit plan.” She’s not accepting any sort of blame here.
I dont think shes deflecting the blame, but she is certainly giving Jacob something to think about, if finds himself far more comfortable talking about joyce and not saying a word about his actual girlfriend he may need to rethink some things.
Not saying joyce is right to have pretended to be Jacob’s boyfriend in the first place, but I certainly dont think shes deflecting blame, since Jacob went along with it.
Girlfriend I mean bluh
Woohoo, emotional manipulation and guilt-tripping. Great foundation for a relationship? Joyce.
I don’t really see the guilt-tripping here, Joyce wouldn’t have anything to gain from doing that. And it’s a pretty legit question, why DID he go along with it, he really didn’t have to.
There’s some level of victim blame, here.
‘Oh, well you could have stopped it at any time! But you didn’t, so clearly this is on you.’
Notice the complete lack of guilt on her face. She doesn’t think she’s doing anything wrong here – remember she still believes in ‘True Love!’ and that the ends justify the means.
“complete lack of guilt on her face”
I think we’re seeing different panel 2s.
I’m never going to be able to read faces the way you people can. I can’t get “complete lack of guilt” off a real person’s face, let alone a 2d hand-drawn one.
They are each seeing what they want to be there.
Fundamentalist upbringing. Like, God loves us all, and his representatives love us, so the guilt-tripping and emotional manipulation the representatives used to make sure I love God must also apply to other loving relationships.
I mean…… Joyce isn’t wrong…….
But she certainty isn’t right……
Today’s comic has been brought to you by the entire comments section for the past several days
Please remember: The Willis has large buffer. Any coincidence with topical events (including the comic section) is because the world reads DoA, not because DoA reads the world.
Love this!
Willis knows us well.
Or has access to a time machine.
She’s got a point.
Like, yeah, her impulsively saying she is Jacob’s girlfriend is obviously wrong, but Jacob did decide to go along with it. It’s hard to think on one’s feet but if I didn’t want a friend of mine to be misinterpreted as my S.O. but without embarrassing my friend or making them feel TOO bad (because let’s be real, Jacob is a soft boi he doesn’t wanna hurt Joyce’s feelings) then he could have easily shrugged it off as a joke. “Haha it’s a running joke, ‘I’m totally his girlfriend haha not’, it’s kinda weird but you had to be there…” like, literally ANYTHING besides going along with it would have been fine. Awkward, sure, but the key to getting away with something like that is to act confident/sure of what you’re saying. And what’s Harrison gonna say, “oh whoops I kinda thought she was your girlfriend, my mistake. Where’s the lucky gal?”.
So, much as Joyce deserved being called out for that, she’s right to point out Jacob rolling with it. As much as I dislike Raidah, I do feel a bit bad for her that Jacob didn’t even mention her name to his brother. And, of course, that he ended up going along with this. Raidah isn’t a good person, but this is not how I wanted those two to break up, you know?
yeah the fact that his fist response but complete rage and disgust is a telling sign
Veeery telling. Not gonna lie, if I’d been looking forward to introducing my family to my significant other only for my friend to intrude on the situation and somehow lie that they were my significant other instead, I don’t care how much I wanted my family’s approval. I’d immediately be upset and annoyed with my friend. Maybe in front of the family I’d try to let them down easy/brush it off as a joke so they don’t look crummy, but in private I would tell them off and I’d immediately start looking for my real significant other so they can meet my family proper. Anything less would feel gross and awful towards the person I’m supposed to be in love with.
I think another “JOYCE NO” is applicable here.
This is not how you get a boyfriend. This isn’t even how you STEAL a boyfriend.
This is just Joyce fucking up and ruining a friendship.
I don’t think the point here is to steal/get Jacob but to point out he can’t pin all the blame on her, when he has willingly been complicit and his feelings, words and actions are not in alignment about this situation.
“Am I really just your friend?”
The point is to get a boyfriend.
The point is to have Jacob make a choice.
No, that’s not Joyce’s point. Joyce’s point is to break them up and have him start dating her. That’s been Joyce’s goal all along – well, since she stopped pretending it was to get him for Sarah.
This is definitely a big ol’ oopsie-doodle, but I have to admire Joyce’s directness here (as the least emotionally-direct human being in the world). And… like other people have said, she does have a point about asking why he’s going along with it.
Yikes. Joyce may be my favorite character, but I think we just stepped from “wonderful, terrible impulsive decision-making” to “deliberate, thought-out scumbaggery”.
Howso? Like, she’s using this opportunity to point out something odd on Jacob’s part, sure, which is opportunistic, but it doesn’t retroactively mean she didn’t initially make a mistake.
She’s blame-deflecting.
And it’s not even that unusual. You’re friends with the girl who punched a shooter? Why wouldn’t you tell people? Meanwhile, girlfriend who you’re still not 100% sure with since she just ‘ticks the boxes’? Of course you might be a little anxious about telling people all the details unless you’re sure it’s a good thing.
Because clearly Jacob doesn’t want to call her out on her lies because it would humiliate her. He doesn’t want to be that cruel.
But he’s not her boyfriend. He’s taking a risk — of making Raydah angry, and lying to his family. He’s doing that to protect her, because he’s a nice guy.
But she’s not apologetic. She’s not understanding the horrible position she’s putting him in. She’s deliberately exploiting his kindness. She’s using him. She’s manipulating him.
And while Raydah might not be a good match for Jacob, he can’t get into a relationship with Joyce on this kind of footing.
Honestly, just consider what you yourself wrote. Nice guy or not, Jacob is taking a risk, for JOYCE, that inherently places his girlfriend lower on his ‘totem pole of importance’ so to speak. Raidah has been looking forward to meeting Jacob’s brother, and Jacob lets Joyce ‘steal’ that moment because…he’s nice?
I mean, he’s a very nice guy, but there’s nice and then there’s “maybe he has conflicted feelings for Joyce that inherently butts heads with his feelings for Raidah”. Joyce is apologetic in the sense that she immediately tried to run away only for Jacob to continue the facade.
I understand that Jacob doesn’t want to humiliate her, but he then can’t exactly act like he was completely powerless. He made the decision to play along for Joyce’s sake. He needs to re-assess why that is. Why he’d give Joyce priority over his girlfriend. Because that is an important question, no matter which way you slice it.
You’re not the first to argue that her trying to run away when Jacob arrived was somehow redeeming, but really I think she was just trying not to face the consequences, not to make life easier for him. Sre, that would have been a consequence of it, but I feel that’s not what she was trying to do.
Same with her running away last strip. That’s not any kind of apologetic, that’s fleeing the scene of the crime.
I’m not arguing that her trying to run away is redeeming. That’s not even the point of my argument here. I’m saying her attempting to run away is her being apologetic about the lie, in that, she obviously had no intentions of keeping up the lie. She realized she made an impulsive lie and wanted to put the kibosh on carrying it out after that point.
Does this mean she was also trying to escape the consequences? Yeah. People can be apologetic because they don’t want to face consequences. Makes it less genuine but I think it’s nuanced for Joyce to 1) realize immediately she fucked up and 2) wanna immediately escape the consequences. You can do both. …Also, calling what happened in these last few strips a ‘crime’ is kinda extreme, my dude. (directed to thejeff).
However, thejeff is also right that Jacob going along with the lie is not entirely due to him just being nice. I mostly leaned on the nice angle because I was going off of nlips argument that Jacob was being nice to Joyce only for Joyce to be unappreciative. Again, this is a situation of nuanced emotion. Does Jacob want to avoid humiliating/hurting Joyce’s feelings? I believe he does, since he tried to help her lie regarding Ethan and didn’t immediately call her out on this lie in front of his brother.
However, is he also going along with the lie because he wants to impress his brother who has immediately taken to Joyce? Yes. I think the comments section and, heck, people in general, would benefit from realizing that people don’t always do things for just one reason. There’s usually nuanced, multiple emotions behind a decision. So yes, Joyce can be apologetic while also trying to avoid the consequences of her fuck up. And Jacob can be attempting to avoid humiliating his friend while also trying to gain his brother’s approval.
I don’t think running away needs to be apologetic at all. Sometimes it’s just running away.
And she didn’t immediately realize she’d fucked up and not try to keep up the lie. She sat and talked to Harrison for a couple of strips until Jacob showed up. Then she ran away, because she didn’t expect him to keep up the pretense. Even more so when she tried again to leave last strip. That’s just leaving Jacob to deal with the consequences while delaying them herself.
Thus “fleeing the scene of the crime” – which is a metaphor, not actually calling it a crime.
The point is that her attempts to get away don’t help her case. They don’t count as apologies. Actual apologies and attempts to make things right count.
I do agree that both of them have multiple motivations behind these bad decisions. I don’t think Joyce is actually being deliberately manipulative here. She’s just floundering around trying to deal with her original impulsive bad decision without actually facing the consequences for it.
Jacob’s not just going along to avoid humiliating Joyce or even because he really does have feelings for her, but because Harrison approves and gives the impression he wouldn’t approve of Raidah (checklist girlfriend).
But he says she’s a friend, but he says she’s just a friend…
Teasing aside, there is some truth to this, it is kinda weird Harrison knew Jacob had a girlfriend, and absolutely nothing about her. I know people handle things differently, but I’ve been in love. Currently, if I’m being honest, and the kind of people I’d tell that much, I have a hard time stopping it at that, you know? Like, I’ll gush and gush, because damn, is it nice to talk about someone you’re passionate about.
But, that’s not everyone, I will concede. Still, that is mighty strange to not tell him damn near anything.
Questions–is Jacob not that happy being with Raidah?
Would he and Joyce be happier together and a better fit?
Did he unconsciously lick (PICK! PHONE!) Raidah out of some brother approval list criteria?
What’s with Raidah’s “do your best or your brother won’t love you” manipulations?
I don’t think Jacob has a prayer of just swapping girlfriends right here and now. And he could kill this whole line of thinking with a single sentence. But he hasn’t said that sentence yet, he doesn’t want to.
If anything, maybe he’ll say “I gotta think about this”, and take a long look at his Raidah relationship, maybe break up with her if he’s really not happy, and maybe at some point after that, try a date with Joyce and see if he likes her for real.
Or if he’s against it, he can end the charade anytime. So could Joyce. They don’t quite want to yet, maybe next strip.
It’s Jacob’s decision to make, not Joyce’s. She kind of pulled the rug underneath his feet.
And yeah, he didn’t have to go with it. But he also got blindsided.
Wether or not Jacob licks Raidah is none of our business.
It wasn’t subconscious. He has literally stated before that Raidah was an item to item match for what he was looking for and that he has a checklist just a few strips ago because his brother had one. His search for brother approval could not be more conscious and on purpose.
Still is. He’s just found out that checklist he’s using doesn’t match what his brother would really approve of. And Joyce does, so obviously he should switch to Joyce to win Harrison’s approval by proving he’s not trying to win it.
The dirigible is in flames…. Jacob has lost his hat.
Dis vuz a terrible plan.
Und I tought he vuz a schmot guy and all.
Zho… iz you sayink dis is vun o’ doze plans vhere ve don’ kill HENNYBODY??
Man, those oopsie-doodles can be a doozy. And yeah, I think that, aside from the initial impulsive mistake, the reason a characteristically honest Joyce hasn’t fessed up to Harrison yet, was that she herself was uncertain about Jacob’s intentions. Jacob certainly sent mixed signals at times. At the risk of redundancy, I’d note that this webcomic isn’t titled “Smart and Healthy Decisions of Age”.
“And how do you feel about liars?”
“I hate them”
Joyce still has the idea that, because she and Sarah think that Raidah is wrong for Jacob, and because from what she (and we) have seen of Raidah, she’s not a very nice person, it’s ok to try to influence Jacob to dump Raidah. That’s wrong, and I hope she doesn’t succeed, and that she has an epiphany about this kind of behavior.
This is the bit of indoctrination that is likely to be hardest to break.
She’s doing the same thing Toe Dad is. Using her belief in God to justify selfish actions, because if she’s meant to be with Jacob then she’s acting on gods will and any action she takes is morally justified.
An outsider can easily say how gross and oopsie-doodled that is.
But it FEELS SO GOOD. Being able to get your way and genuinely, deeply believe that you’re RIGHT because of a divine higher power?
That’s a bit of indoctrination that is REALLY hard to break. I hope that she’s able to because it’s vital.
I’m not entirely sure how “My friend should break up with his girlfriend because she’s not a very nice person” is so wrong.
Because it’s not your decision to make.
Has Joyce actually said, outright to Jacob, ‘Raidah isn’t very nice, I don’t know why you’re dating her’?
Nope, she jumped straight to ‘yes, it’s my given right to break them up because I don’t think she deserves him’.
If they’re going to break up, they will, but it’s not on her timing.
It’s not wrong to feel that way, but it is wrong to act on it.
Or at least in the ways that Joyce has gone about it and with the end goal that Joyce has.
You could reasonably share your concerns about why the girlfriend isn’t nice.
Its not so much that he should break up with her because she’s not a good person, as its “so he becomes available to me” that is the wrong thing. Joyce doesnt want Jacob to break up with Raidah for his sake, she wants it because she feels entitled to have him and that is so many levels of wrong.
Consent matters. Even if Joyce had evidence Raidah was physically abusive, emotional manipulation and underhanded bullshit is still toxic, unacceptable crap.
People are allowed to make bad decisions and undermining them like this is just shitty.
A good friend should express their concerns to Jacobs face.
If Joyce genuinely thinks raidah is bad for Jacob then she should say “Jacob, I’ve noticed some things about how Raidah treats you and I find it concerning”.
If you just think your friend has a healthy relationship but could have a better relationship with someone else? Not your call.
Because that’s not *your* call, and Joyce is going about it in a sneaky, underhanded way. She’s not talking to Jacob about how she feels she’d be a good fit, she’s just decided for him she’s the better fit, and then lied to get close to his brother (his weakspot)
I don’t care if you don’t like Radiah, -I- don’t like Radiah, but this not okay.
Yes, This. She should not even be talking to him about dating him, even if she went about it in an honest way, and this way wasn’t honest. He’s in a relationship. Maybe it’s the wrong relationship for him. maybe he’s even realizing this. But until he actually breaks up with Raidah, he’s off limits romantically to Joyce, and she shouldn’t even be talking about it to him. It’s his decision to make.
What I enjoy about this story line’s comments is how the camps clearly break out. The Lawful camp is all “Joyce said an Untruth! SMITE her!” But Neutral and Chaotic are like “Hold up, no bigs, let’s see how this plays out.”
Even Lawful Evil is like “She never said ‘I am his girlfriend’, she merely said the word ‘Yes’. That could have been an unrelated exclamation ipso facto ‘Yes! I got see a baby!’ and it is not her responsibility to clear up any incorrect conclusions Harrison misinterprets from said exclamations. “
Joyce, is it not conceivable that he “went along with it” because he didn’t want to humiliate you in front of someone else? And also, yes, because he wanted to keep his brother’s approval. But neither of these things is evidence of an attraction. And talking to his brother about a friend in the news while waiting for the right time to introduce his actual girlfriend is pretty weak evidence as well.
Oopsie-doodle, this was not meant as a reply to you Shane!
I’m not arguing for a strong attraction, and letting her down easy could well be one of his top motives. Surprise at the sheer Audacity of the situation and Harrison’s presence were likely both major players, and those both got cleared up. My main point was that some people (Lawful Good mainly) find Joyce’s behavior completely inexcusable, but other Neutrals and chaotics and evils don’t feel the same way, somewhere from “you do you kid, good may come of this” to “go for it! Steal and conquer what is Raidah’s as much as you can get away with!” (Chaotic Evil)
It’s not inconceivable, but quite unlikely. It is far more likely he went along with it because Harrison voiced his approval of Joyce as Jacob’s girlfriend. He had every opportunity to shut it down and say “there’s been some sort of miscommunication”, but he didn’t. And he didn’t do it because he’s put his idea of Harrison on a pedestal and is convinced that is how he must be as well, and that if he is in any way different it means he’s worse. Anything that gets him out of that way of thinking is a good thing for that alone. So Joyce’s oopsie-doodle was a bad thing on account of being a lie, but if it gets Jacob to start considering what he wants and wants to be like as opposed to what he thinks he must be like and strive for it’s a good thing for that. It can be good and bad for different reasons.
And if you want evidence of attraction between Joyce and Jacob, they’ve been flirting with each other practically since they met. They have such great chemistry they don’t even need to try and hardly notice it themselves, it comes that naturally.
Well said, it’s fun to watch too!
(This sounds way more condescending than what I genuinely mean…)
Am I the only one who assumed at first that Joyce was still sitting next to Jacob, and so was studiously avoiding eye contact? … Probably.
This court finds you guilty in the murder of five high school girls and sentences you to death. Do you have any last words?
Oopsie-doodle.
Well said, it’s fun to watch too!
(This sounds way more condescending than what I genuinely mean…)
happens to the best of us… and the worst I see! Zing!
Thing Jacob said: “You are not my girlfriend.”
Thing Joyce said: “come on, you know you want it.”
Thing Jacob didn’t say: “No.”
Come on Jacob, this is your second chance.
I’m hoping his silence is just him taking a moment to figure out exactly how to tell her no. Can you imagine how stressful it must be to be put on the spot like he was today? Definitely not supporting all of his decision making to end up in the situation, but I’ll cut him a little slack for not being able to come up with an immediate response to Joyce dumping some heavy emotional baggage on him out of the blue.
Oh, absolutely. If he tell her in five minutes, or ten, or an hour, that no, she really isn’t his girlfriend, then all is well.
I just don’t think he will do that.
I think a missing variable is our knowledge of how happy (or not) he is with Raidah. If he was 110% happy there, Joyce would have been gently or firmly shut down long ago.
Not long ago. As far as I can tell, Jacob’s been essentially unaware until now. Affected by her flirting, but not aware that’s what she was doing or that he was responding.
His thoughts were on the pizza.
Second chance to tell her to… go away forever?
Danny’s response might say it best http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/didnt/ . If Jacob says something like that he might redeem himself.
Look Joyce just because you’re not wrong it doesn’t mean you’re right
Just because you’re right about him being complicit doesn’t mean you are in the clear. This is still a bad, Joyce.
Clearly God wants them to be together, so that makes it allright.
At this point it’s not clear what Willis wants.
No, it’s pretty clear.
Bagge’s reference is to how Joyce thinks about it. To how she has told us she thinks about it.
Yes, she did a bad thing, Jacob went along with it instead of shutting it down immediately, and now good things (Jacob seriously evaluating what he himself wants instead of imitating an idolized version of Harrison) may come of the situation.
I don’t think Jacob would’ve gotten that wake-up call if Raidah had been there instead of Joyce. Harrison would’ve been nice and polite, and Jacob would not have caught on that Harrison was secretly wishing Jacob would go his own path instead of being dead set of following in Harrison’s footsteps.
Gee, it’s almost like things-are-complicated(TM) or somesuch.
I’m sure a lot of comments say this already but. God damnit Joyce.
All that mortal danger she’s been around sure has made her forward.
‘Drunk on baby’ is probably the scariest thing Joyce has ever said.
jacobs face in the last panel is just: shit, she has a point and im cackling.
however this plays out is gonna be hilarious, but I do agree on some level with joyce- especially going back and realizing that harrison did indeed know more about Joyce than raidah.
Legit question: does Joyce have the language to own this properly?
Most of us who curse would call this a “fuck up”, which Joyce obviously cannot.
Joyce’s upbringing didn’t exactly teach boundaries and has way too much “I’m right because God” and not enough owning your mistakes to others and making a real apology. Which is a learned skill.
If Joyce had said “I got really distracted by the baby and Harrison assumed I was your girlfriend and then I fucked up by going along with it” – would we have such a negative response to her saying “I fucked up”? Most people take that as owning a big mistake.
I do totally imagine “made an oopsie-doodle” to be her version of “I fucked up”. Its not exactly a phrase we’ve heard out of her before.
Joyce has made some shitty choices here, but I feel like a lot of what’s happened is that she made one mistake (not correcting Harrison) and genuinely doesn’t have the tools to get herself out of it and make amends, which she has tried to do.
I’m sorry bon, I have no idea why my comment posted as a reply to you. 🙁
It’s been happening to a lot of people, these past several days. Maybe that’s why everyone seems to keep talking at/around each other, instead of talking to each other.
She doesn’t have to say “fucked up” in order to admit her mistake. She could say “messed up” or even “made a mistake”. These sound more serious and adult than “oopsie-doodle”. Not all adults say “fuck”, or would use it in every situation, but they manage to sound adult. (Don’t get me wrong. I have nothing against the word “fuck”. It’s one of my favorite words. But I know some people don’t like to use it, yet they manage not to sound like 5-year-olds either.)
You have a good point. I’m annoyed at her for not apologizing properly, but she might just not know how, while being aware that she did wrong.
I’m annoyed at claims she did nothing wrongh “because it might turn out ll right/because Raidah isn’t a good match for Jacob” though. That’s just coincidence, not justification.
Yet I also feel this doesn’t make her a monster. Just someone who acted like an idiot because it felt like a good idea at the time and she’s in love. Relatable. Still not ok.
Science DOES prove love makes you drugged and she’s a first time user (do crushes do the same thing? Might be second time). Quick! Get her medical intervention! Foot to mouth, STAT!
Maybe, if she followed up by apologizing and asking what he wanted her to do instead of trying to make it true by insinuating he really doesn’t like Raidah as much and thinks of her as more than a friend.
She’s doubling down on it, rather than backing off.
Joyce, Jacob being a dickbag does not make you less of one.
To listen to the comment section, you’d think “Stealing” someone’s bf/gf should be a capital offense… I don’t even consider it wrong at all unless it’s done through seduction. I know a guy who has been happily married for over 30 years who “stole” a girl from her fiancé. As if the woman (or Jacob in this case) is incapable of rational thought or making her own decisions.
There is a difference between stealing in the sense of what Joyce has tried to do which is flirt and compete with his current girlfriend (which undermines Jacob’s autonomy and freedom of choice from both parties and is just a plain disrespectful thing to do to a friend you know is in a relationship they seem happy in), and someone deciding ‘I actually legitimately like this person more than my current partner’ of their own accord.
There’s also a bit of doubt about the character of EITHER person that joins in a “stealing” dynamic. The “poacher” doesn’t respect what other people built so what else do they not respect? Why couldn’t they wait until it ran its course? Were they just waiting in the wings? Were they not honest about what the previous dynamics were to all involved? (Like Joyce…) OTOH: the “stolen” wasn’t ACTUALLY committed despite SAYING so and is easily led astray/what they say can’t be trusted (Like Jacob… talk to your gf first!). You declared intent and then took it back. You will never mean what you say. It’s awful all around to make that assumption about someone’s relationships, but it’s a bastardized version of legitimate worries about future patterns/thought patterns a person could possess and enact on you. Also, stop dibbsing people or thinking they can’t change… None of this is endorsement – just explaining why it’s a classic knee jerk and why these two characters are epitomizing why people think its bad, not why it can be harmless and natural.
Is there any actual evidence that Jacob and Radah are going steady or have even had that kind of conversation. If there isn’t an agreement then there is absolutely nothing wrong with dating multiple people and/or having multiple girlfriends at the same time.
We haven’t seen that conversation. Though there was the one about how Raidah would drop him if he cheated on her – though I suppose you could argue it wouldn’t really be cheating if they hadn’t formalized it. That didn’t seem to be how Raidah was thinking about it though. Either there or when she was squaring off with Joyce for “sniffing around her man.”
It’s pretty damn clear that Raidah’s not okay with it. There’s no indication that Jacob thinks of it differently. At the absolute best, they’ve completely screwed up communication about it.
Nothing wrong with poly/ multiple relationships etc. As for going steady – generally claiming someone as a gf/bf/so is that commencement. Going on a date with someone doesn’t make them the gf/bf/so fixture.
Haha yes! Chaotic Neutral!
Saying Joyce did the wrong thing doesn’t mean we think it’s a capital offense, or that we think she’s an awful person or we hate her. Sheesh. If we like someone, do we have to agree with every single damn thing they do, not matter how silly or wrong?
Joyce is not a bad person! I do not hate her! If she were a real person I’d be happy to be friends with her! But she made a mistake here.
Am I the only one who thinks that Joyce is honestly asking him? His behavior has been confusing, to say the least. Joyce clearly realized that she was screwed as soon as she told her lie (thus all the fleeing), and out of nowhere Jacob just started playing along to the hilt. And Jacob’s been talking about her, not Raidah.
Saying this out of the blue like this is risky, but it’s laying the cards on the table. Perhaps she honestly wants to know? She does like him, and if he really likes her, that drastically changes how the immediate future is going to go.
I completely agree with you. Except… he might really like her _and_ not think it’s a good idea to start dating her soon (or maybe ever), for any of several reasons.
I don’t know if his last-panel expression is “Oh shit, you’re right” or “How do I put this, Joyce…”
I think you’re right as well. Joyce is asking honestly and not trying to manipulate him. What happens short-term is up in the air, but I think in the long term Jacob will be seriously thinking about what he wants to do and who he wants to be with. He already got one big wake-up-call with Harrison basically telling him “Don’t try to be like me, do your own thing! I’ll support you.” Now he’s getting a second one and I think he needed them both.
She looks like she’s just connecting those dots, so the hamster in her wheel house matches your guessumptions. 😀
Yeah, she’s asking honestly, but so what?
She shouldn’t be. She certainly shouldn’t be right here and now, where she’s just screwed up and Harrison’ll be back in a few minutes. This is a time for apologizing to Jacob for putting him into this mess, not for challenging him about his actual girlfriend.
Yeah, she’s a messed up kid and it’s understandable. She’s not malicious, or even really manipulative, but she’s still behaving badly.
If she had asked any time before lying to Harrison about being Jacob’s girlfriend, I would have loved it.
DoA Book 10: I May Have Gotten Drunk On Baby And Said An Oopsie-doodle
“Oopsie-Doodle” is a typically Joyce bit of nonsense-speech. However, I get what she’s saying. She’s saying that her brain jumped the tracks and that she really has no clue what she was thinking or is even entirely sure what she was doing!
That’s a pretty convenient way to avoid accountability.
Yes, except no. Because the next question is what the person in question is going to do about it.
What Joyce was going to do was leave, but then she was spotted and Jacob went and said “That’s… why she’s my girlfriend.” At which point what the hell is she going to do? Tell Harrison “actually no, I’m not Jacob’s girlfriend, I lied to you and now Jacob lied to you as well”? That would be even more fucked up.
See my comment from 9/30 about about the quandary between “girl friend” and “girlfriend”.
Except as Callid13 says a bit further down, to interpret “girlfriend” as “friend who happens to be female” you need to ignore context and common usage of the word. “Girlfriend” has become the term for “female person you’re in a committed romantic and/or sexual relationship with”. The far more general term “friend” exists and applies to all genders. It’s even possible for a couple to be each other’s girlfriend/boyfriend but to not be friends, but hey that’s language for you.
Girlfriend is usually a person you have a romantic relationship with. Steady girlfriend is one where you have a commitment to the relationship. Otherwise, going steady wouldn’t be a big deal. I really wish people wouldn’t try to push words into having meanings they don’t have!
Has “steady” made a comeback? I associate with 50’s slang, not modern.
I’ve rarely seen “girlfriend” used outside of some level of commitment.
People don’t generally call someone their boyfriend or girlfriend anymore if there isn’t some sort of commitment. Before that, they tend to just say they’re seeing someone or they ‘aren’t official’. Going steady isn’t really something I’ve heard most people that age use anymore.
If what Joyce was going to do next was leave, she could have done that before Jacob showed. Or explained to Harrison. Or something.
She talked to Harrison, posing as the girlfriend, until Jacob arrived, then she tried to run away to avoid getting caught. (Like she tried to run last strip to avoid this conversation.)
Trying to run away doesn’t help her case.
You can still be held accountable while having it recognised you didn’t do it with a scheme in mind or fully think through why you were doing it. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I think “No clue” is a bit misleading. I think she knows perfectly well what’s going on. Her brain jumped track from “behave like a functional human being in a social context” to “Behave like the protagonist in a fatalistic romantic comedy.”
Her behavior makes perfect sense if you accept that
– Joyce and Jacob are meant to be together
– Jacob’s relationship to Raidah is an obstacle for Joyce to overcome
– The correct way to overcome this obstacle is through persistance, grit and staying true to herself.
– She will be rewarded in the end by Jacbo’s eternal love.
…basically, the exact romantic fantasy she has believed her entire life. Only, now she is trying to make it reality which is NOT a good track for her brain to slip to. “Oopsie-Doodle” indeed.
Basically.
And I thought she’d figured out that wasn’t reality when she realized it was lust driving her.
That, narratively, is why this isn’t going to work for her. She needs to learn the romantic fantasy isn’t reality.
oh there’s pain in the next strip….isn’t there?
The smash cut to see how Becky is doing? Yes.
My guess is evil dads.
I think it’s safe to assume that the next panel will involve pain for someone. Maybe Joyce, maybe Raidah, maybe the comment section.
My guess is four panels of Sarah reading a book.
Today’s panel title may have not ever been used for a title in a comic episode before, but it was certainly used in a Simpsons episode….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oicDiFsW1_s
Considering how long it has been running, good luck finding something that hasn’t been used in a Simpsons episode.
I’m still trying to dodge the dumpster fire that is the comments section, so I’ll just leave this.
Joyce fucked up first cause of baby induced brain fart.
Jacob enabled the fuck up and fucked up further.
Jacob is calling Joyce out on her fuck up.
Joyce is calling Jacob out on his fuck up.
They both fucked up. Simple as that. Stop acting like one is a saint and the other murdered your dog. They’re teenagers just becoming adults, the series is called DUMBING of Age, and shit like this is standard teenage drama. iCarly has done worse stuff than this. So, comments section, in the words of the Major: Contain. The Calamity. That is you Mammaries.
They definitely both fucked up. Much of the commentariat acknowledges that, even those who slant it towards one side.
Though I’d add that Joyce fucked up first more intentionally and for longer with her plans to break up Jacob and Raidah, first for Sarah and then for herself. I’m mostly disappointed in her, because I’d thought she’d given that up.
It’s those who think those fuckups are going to lead to romance and are celebrating that bother me. That’s not the character growth Joyce needs.
Joyce wasn’t drunk on baby, she made a very hastily-calculated move that intruded on Jacob’s life for her own gain. Jacob going along with it makes it a bigger deal because now neither of them can trust the other to be honest. Dumb teen shit is Walky breaking up with Dorothy because he didn’t want her to tell him how to dress. This is major life implications for the characters.
I do think it was impulsive, because it’s hard to predict it would have turned out even this well. If it was calculated, I can’t even imagine how she thought it would turn out.
OK, I will admit I was wrong… at least half wrong…
When Jacob said “She is my girlfriend” he didn’t mean it.
Darnit. I really wanted that to be the way it worked out.
I don’t know if his last-panel expression is “Oh wow she’s right” or “How do I explain to her that she’s wrong.” So maybe I was 100% wrong… but I’ll hold out hope until I see what he says.
Jacob? Have you ever heard about the situation where a love interest poses you a question where all the potential answers are wrong?
… look, all I’m saying is that the only winning move is not to play.
God, I wanted her to be straight forward and tell Jacob she liked him and she wanted to date him, but it happening now is so gross. UHhhhgg it’s like a monkeys paw. Get Joyce just talking to him about wanting more but instead of a “I’ll accept if you say no but I think I’m better for you and I’d enjoy dating you, the option is there if you agree” it’s “I’ve way overstepped boundaries and spewed emotions at you when you had to react positively in front of your brother and am now deflecting blame”
I was really stoked for Harrison to get here because I also love Joycob and I was so sure Raidah was going to torpedo it all by herself, but Joyce beat her to the punch.
Ideally she wouldn’t have told him until he was actually no longer in a relationship with Raidah. Not before.
YIKES
Well, one of the meanings of “girlfriend” is “female friend”. Seeing as Joyce is female and his friend, that would make her his girlfriend.
If we, you know, completely ignore context and common usage of the word >.>
All I’m saying is that if I get into any kind of extended conversation about my girlfriend, her name comes up.
And I’ve just realised this whole arc is a remake of “What’s up Doc”, with Jacob as Ryan O’Neal, Joyce as Barbra Streisand, and Raidah as Madeline Kahn.
Of course as that film was a homage to the screwball comedy films of the 1930’s, it’s possible they’re both independently sharing the same tropes. 🙂
Did we go back to It’s Walky? Is this Anti-Joyce? What is this extremely chaotic energy she’s exuding?
Legally, I qualify as 26 today. That’s an entire year longer than I thought I was gonna live without acting on the constant urge to an hero.
I’m still stuck working fast food, but at least it’s paying my part of the bills and feeding my hobbies. I finally found a D&D group that’s fun to play with, and it was basically a happy accident.
Most importantly, I’ve decided Dragon Ball GT is irreparably, permanently canon forever, and absolutely nothing on the entire planet can change my mind or the law.
Hey, happy birthday.
Happy birthday!
If you want good news, “paying my bills and feeding my hobbies” is literally what jobs are for.
Happy birthday! (Just so you know, the next 26 years are going to go by a lot faster than the first 26).
Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday!
Sorry Joyce but you’re on the wrong track here. Jacob probably didn’t tell Harrison about Raidah because he didn’t want his brother to disapprove of his choice, which would put a strain on his relationship with both brother and girlfriend. You, howver, are a friend. It was safe telling him about you because it’s “just” a normal friendship.
It was practically outright stated that Jacob started dating Raidah because she checks all the boxes on his list which he has because he thought Harrison would APPROVE of him having a checklist. Jacob’s main motivation is to be like his big brother and get his big brother’s approval, he was sure Harrison would approve of Raidah and he still didn’t tell his family anything about her beyond that she exists. I agree with some of the other posters further up who theorized that this is because he’s just not very passionate about Raidah. They are officially dating and he probably likes her well enough, but he’s not passionate about her the way he’s passionate about his friend Joyce. And Joyce is so much more interesting to talk about, too.
Imagine you have on the one hand “a person I’m dating because they fulfill certain criteria that make them a stuffy by-the-numbers lawyer”, on the other hand you have “a good friend I’ve got great chemistry with who’s really interesting and I feel passionate about”. Which of those are you more likely to talk about?
It also helps if that friend was involved in the biggest news that happened on campus while you were there, that probably prompted phone calls from every family member to check up on you.
And some people are reserved enough not to comfortable talking about romantic feelings with family members, even if they think they’d approve, but a casual friend with a news story hook?
I think there’s something to that argument, but it’s not nearly as definitive as some are taking it.
Joyce. No. Please. Trying to logic your way into being anything other than just a friend goes bad. I’ve been there. Lost a friend, got a flower pot thrown at me, wound up with a stalker. Admittedly, you have done your logic better….you’ll still rue this day.
Did the ex-friend throw the flower pot at you because if so that’s abuser behavior and you’re definitely better off without them around. You’d think “if we’re friends it wouldn’t have happened” but for people who would do that sort of thing, it will bubble to the surface eventually.
Too be fair. The flower pot was an unrelated event but DID happen on the same day and this is related in my mind. Lesson for the wise, never argue with frat boys while wearing your RA uniform.
Nothing turned me off from Greek life more than visiting frat houses.
I didn’t even have to visit one. I just walked by.
You know the saying, “all is fair in love and war.” Honestly, compared to all the relationship drama at my co-ed college dorm (back in the day), this kind of thing is par for the course. I can think of numerous embarrassing/hilarious/shitty things I’ve done or had done to me, OR have observed happening among my friends and acquaintances. (Or hilariously shitty YMMV.)
I used to fantasize about writing a novel or a comic about all those crazy things that went on. Then realized it’s about what happens everywhere! Oftentimes, you have to make some shitty moves to learn life lessons. That’s the way it works!
What needs to happen is Jacob shuts her down, and their friendship is on rocky ground for a while, and then Joyce goes to Joe going “welp looks like you were wrong about me being able to get Jacob, and now everything is awful forever” because I want more of that sweet sweet Joe/Joyce time.
Shutup I don’t have a problem. D:
Joyce is being far bolder than I expected here
This situation is a trashfire somehow managed to become even MORE on fire. Trashhellfire?
Trashfiendfire
Joyce, sweetie… you don’t get to criticize Jacob’s relationship problems after what you did! It’s up to him and Radiah, not you!
Joyce has a point here. This situation can be all subconsciously speaking from both of them.
This is one helluva scenario that’s stemmed from an “oopsie-doodle”.
Now all we need is Raidah appearing outta nowhere, and the metaphorical train wreck will be complete!
I wonder where Raidah is right now. It’s super unlikely that Jacob didn’t tell her that his brother was visiting, and now they’re eating at one of the most popular places on campus. I’m waiting for her to walk right in and get confused / confront them all about it.
She knows he’s coming today, but he came early. I think the original plan was for dinner. Instead Jacob’s blowing off class.
If Raidah is your girlfriend, why haven’t we seen her in over a year?
Jacob is ashamed of us.
Lots of oopsie-doodles in this storyline.
Well shes not wrong
1) Good point.
2) Yes, she is. Not for Joyce to make that decision.
3) Here for Joyce getting into boy drama.
I am really astonished that most of you are referring back to her initial idea of getting Jacob away from Raidah and are not willing to take the current situation on face value i.e. accept that Joyce hat a bad lapse of consciousness and said yes at the wrong moment and when Jacob played along, she didn’t get out when she could have. Now she down the rabbit hole and things start to look even more crazy than before.
It reminds me of a former friend who for ages though I was interested in her lover, just because I had mentioned once, when I met the not-then lover for the first time, that she might be interesting (and I lost interest over the next few weeks). They became a couple about half a year later, I had already forgotten about ever having been interested in the lover, but the idea persisted in my friends head for more than five years (their relationship lasted about two).
So, you know, people can change their minds and if you insist on furnishing them with ideas they have outgrown, you are not paying attention to what is happening. And it’s really annoying.
This is fiction. Nothing’s at face value.
She was focused on getting Jacob away from Raidah for weeks, only maybe kind of gave it up a couple of days ago, without any indication of her interest changing, basically confirmed her interest last strip and we’re supposed to pretend that has nothing to do with the current actions?
That she is busy with other stuff than ‘Raidah is an asshole and doesn’t deserve Jacob’?
Absolutely.
Did it just bowl her over that Jacob and his brother value her for the things she fears most that people will ridicule her for?
Absolutely.
Does being valued for things you fear make you unworthy of being loved make you want to hold fast to the people who value you with them? Sure.
So what?
Huh? What does this have to do with your previous post?
Are you now suggesting she was over her previous crush (mostly getting over it offscreen in a couple of days), accidentally called herself his girlfriend with no connection to that crush and now has a completely new crush that looks just like her old one? That we’ve got no evidence that she’s over, other than that she hasn’t brought it up in a couple days.
Joyce does not know how to speak honestly about her feelings, but couple strips ago was a pretty good start. With, of course, spectacularly bad timing.
Jacob hasn’t exactly been in touch with his own feelings either. She is pointing that out. Yes, everything is wrong with all of this, but she isn’t wrong.
on the one hand, joyce, chill. attacking his relationship isn’t going to make him want your thicc non pepperoni eating behind.
on the other hand, i kiiiiiiiiiiiinda see what you mean by that statement (not saying you are correct in saying it), he did tell his bro all about you, and never even mentioned his current girlfriends name, and he did go along with this (if for no other reason than to save you from embarrasement)
Is Joyce actually thicc, though? She does have a good amount of butt for a white girl, but is it enough for two Cs?
Harrison was commenting on her “good caboose” a few strips back, which is a little judgey and boundary-ish and objectifying if we are splitting hairs.
To be fair, he said he assumed she had a good caboose, meaning that he didn’t look at it. And the text is a little smaller than the rest, so I’m also hoping that this was more of an aside to his brother and not something just being exclaimed in front of Joyce.
But yeah, it’s still objectifying, and even between two guys talking alone it’s creepy.
Did Joyce make a huge mistake lying about their relationship status to the brother? Absolutely.
Is she making a good point with the observations made and that question asked? Again, absolutely.
Is it still inappropriate, given the rest of the context? Absolutely.
Is she still using it to deflect from her own oopsie-doodle? Again, absolutely.
(Admittedly, she also wants to know the answer, but nonetheless.)
Grace rolled a crit on her social roll
A social roll sounds like it would taste good at first, but after a few past my limit, I’d feel ill and abscond from the enticing baked good 😛
Is the RSS feed broken? it stopped updating at “Grownup”
Hot damn
I hate this I hate this I hate this. Please God, let Jacob end this
Joyce kinda/sorta has a point? But even so, he shouldn’t have to choose between calling out his friend or lying to his brother.
And even if there is some chemistry/attraction going on here, it’s still up to Jacob to make the choice to do something about those feelings.
So, boo Joyce, try again, and hopefully your next statement starts with an “I’m sorry”.
“Aw, shit, I just got out-lawyered by a home-ec major.”
Yeaaaaa, I’m with Joyce on this one. Maybe I relate because I’m terrible at communicating and have accidentally stated something I had no intention of saying when put on the spot. It happens. Jacob definitely did not need to go along with it and make it 5000x harder to play it off and/or come clean.
When Joyce does something incredibly insightful but also AT THE WRONG TIME
She’s wrong for deflecting like that, but Imma be honest that question caught me off guard though.