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The hardest lesson in your late teens/early 20s (and possibly beyond) is that just because your friend(s) are focused on other people, it doesn’t diminish your friendship and you don’t have to insert yourself in there.
It’s an even harder lesson if you’ve spent most of that time building up your self-esteem via that friendship in the first place.
Here’s another one. Sometimes the closest friends you’ve had all your life become nothing more than acquaintances. Even strangers. People drift. That’s okay.
It took her a long time to realize this and a lot of shit has happened because of it. I’m really glad that she can try to move on from the self loathing at least a little. It’s a sort of narcissism to think you’re the cause of everyone’s problems.
it’s a good realization but I wouldn’t say it’s moving away from self flagellation. Indeed, as someone who does this on the reg, I can see that Amber is now beating herself up and withdrawing because she can’t be the friend that Ethan needs right now. This entire take is born out of self loathing – Amber has been through something more traumatic consistently throughout her life, and just because she’s weathered more damage than everyone else here does *not* mean she’s okay right now. Ethan has his own shit to deal with, it is not selfish for Amber to acknowledge that, as her oldest and closest friend, maybe she would like Ethan there for her right now.
It is good of her to respect his boundaries and acknowledge his hurt and not try to fix him as a distraction from her own pain, but the angle she is taking from it again is disparaging herself for her own coping mechanisms, wants and needs.
Literally no one else on this earth needs to put as much thought into their desires for human connection as Amber consistently does.
Amber basically needs a time machine to punch her dad in the face before he can suggest self-defense classes as an alternative to therapy, and then to arrange things VERY CAREFULLY so the one she gets knows how to compassionately and competently handle dissociation. (I feel safe saying AG existed by this point, but the girls never had to reach the self-loathing feedback loop that ultimately fueled Amber stabbing Ryan, the immense guilt/I’m a monster validation that ensued, and the two no longer sharing memories.)
Since she can’t time travel, I will also accept her getting that therapist NOW, intense amounts of mental health support, and probably some antidepressants given those self-destructive tendencies.
What if you’ve been made to feel as if you’re the cause of everyone’s problems? Narcissism (another one of those words that’s tossed around a little freely these days) is a pretty tough label to hang on that.
Yeah, probably, but I do stand by it in this case. Amber has treated people terribly because she’s treated their actions as personal attacks on her. People like Sal, Joyce, Ethan, Danny. I think it’s fair.
They did also have a… not full fight, but discussion/Ethan stating he’s kind of tapped out because of this exact tendency of Amber’s. I don’t think he’s fully pissed at her, but he does need that space. (Though yeah, ‘you’ve been dissociating to the point of not sharing memories and not telling anyone it reached that point, and this put us all in danger and left Mike alone in a hospital for 36 hours, what the HELL?’ is also a factor there and totally warranted.)
He also blames Amber for not telling anyone Mike was in the hospital to begin with, for not addressing and treating her dissociation so it came to actually hurt people.
What I don’t get is Sal’s apparent … resonance with this soliloquy? Does she take ownership of someone’s grief? Oh, Marcie. She’s taking ownership of Marcie’s pain, now I get it.
Last couple of chapters have been very interesting when it comes to Amber and her growth. She’s learned both when’s the right time to keep certain people close to her in order to not take them for granted and the right time to give those she cares for distance when they need some time apart from her.
With Danny on the roof, it’s probably for the better that Ethan isn’t.
I find it interesting that it is Amber who is surrounding herself with people while Ethan isn’t. (I somehow find this entirely in-character despite generalizations about their past behavior)
Ethan is trying to surround Mike with people.
If you know someone hospitalized, esp. for longer than overnight, consider visiting them. I felt warm inside with every visit, even if the surgery/ anaesthetic scrambled my memory.
I’m glad I learnt that lesson when I was still in my mid-teens, but at the same time, it would have been kinda nice if I hadn’t had to learn it the hard way.
Also now I’m a parent and have smoll people who look at me to fix everything. But the tiny mainly wants a cuddle/milk/attention/nappy change, and the toddler’s sads can mainly be fixed with a cuddle, food, distraction or sleep. The five year old has had a tough year and when she gets anxiety brain it’s a bit harder as logic doesn’t always help… When the anxiety takes the form of “what if a bad person/witch/fairy tries to take me away/hurt me?” insisting flat out that Mummy and Daddy are way more powerful helps. When it takes the form of “I wish I was dead so I didn’t need to worry about dying/I want to live forever” telling her that she needs to eat healthily, exercise, sleep well, and pay a modicum of attention to her surroundings then helps… But it would be nice to stamp out the anxiety so those fears don’t crop up repeatedly…
Another thing some folks fail to understand is that some people can’t be “fixed”. Some of us have to live with the mistakes we’ve made, the best we can.
Sometimes you have to fix something, but other times there’s nothing to fix. A relationship can be destroyed when trust is lost. Cheating on your girlfriend? That is a stab in the back of her. Beating your wife? That is multiples stabs in her back. Isolating your children from society? That is like preparing them to be sacrificial lambs.
Maybe Amber can fix her relationship with Ethan, but that will take a lot of time. It will take more time for Danny to fix what he did, more time for Jacob to forgive Joyce, and… let’;s be honest, Joyce and her family (except John) won’t forgive Carol because she nuked her relationship with them.
Actually, I think that the time has come t roll end credits to the ‘The Incredible Hulk’ TV show’s unforgettable end credits music ‘The Lonely Man’. Of all the heroes in the Marvel universe, Amber in many ways matches Dr Bruce Banner. Sal her her own ‘red on the ledger’ to resolve although she’s learning less destructive ways of doing so.
Maybe it’s due to me being a young person who hasn’t yet reached emotional maturity reading about young people fumbling through reaching emotional maturity, but a some of these more emotional strips are hard to understand for me, at least compared to how well most of the other people in the comment section seem to understand them.
I mean, I understand what Amber is saying here, at least I think, but I have a lot of trouble actually matching this up with all her past actions and what specifically it would be referring to, so it gets kinda confusing for me.
I’m fairly sure this is referencing the conversation that Amber had with Ethan where she apologised and Ethan said that he never doubted how sorry she was but it made it difficult for him to truly feel anger or remorse because she would go to far lengths to try to fix things and prove she was apologetic and how Amber acted to Sal before.
Amber in the past has acted as AG due to feeling like she FAILED Ethan by not protecting him at the convenience store. Becoming AG became a way to selfishly control Ethan’s pain under a mask of selflessness, by turning herself into both a weapon and shield for him. She tried to shield him from Sal by warning him. She tried to fight Sal, to defeat her, to prove she could defend him. Amber acting as AG centers around trying to be the barrier between Ethan and Sal. Which does partially come from you know, Blaine saying it was all her fault for not protecting him and you know, her own extensive trauma from the event telling her their meeting would likely be horrible for Ethan, even though it put herself in the place to be hurt instead.
AG also seemed to be on board with these motives and feelings until she realised that Sal wasn’t actually that bad after all.
But when Ethan actually saw Sal again? It was awkward but he was fine. The lengths Amber went to for him were all unnecessary in trying to manage his pain.
Sal finds this relatable because her own actions with Marcie have some parallels to this. She centered herself as the person to try to fix Marcie’s pain and to always be there for her when Marcie didn’t need her to. She took on responsibility for her suffering that wasn’t hers to take.
Both Amber and Sal tried to insert themselves into someone else’s feelings and fix them where it wasn’t their place to fix them and Amber is learning she doesn’t need to do selfless grand gestures for other people to selfishly prove herself and they don’t want her to or to try to take responsibility for their feelings. Ethan just wants a friend he can talk to, not a superhero trying to protect him and Marcie just wants a friend, not someone who will try to fight for her honour and always escalate situations.
Of course this isn’t solely because of that. Amber also has extensive trauma that has gone untreated for a long time that contributed to her views, actions and beliefs which Ethan didn’t seem to quite get for a long time (as he basically moved on from the first hostage situation while Amber’s brain was stuck in it and unable to move forward so she couldn’t let it go), and at home, Sal mentioning Marcie always escalated into a fight whether she wanted it to or not because Linda is an unreasonable parent so of course she won’t listen, she’ll escalate until they’re both shouting. The circumstances around them helped cement their views in the past, and now they are unlearning them.
To add my own too cents, its not just that Amber and Sal were acting as unnecessary protectors, but by doing so were actively creating problems for their friends.
Ethan just outright told Amber he can never allow himself to be upset arround her, much less with her, because then she goes and does something insane. Like develop another disassociated identity. Which just makes Ethan feel worse.
And, as my own aside, if she isn’t doing something insane, she’s emotionally unavailable because she’s kicking trees or speaking only in emoji.
Sal saw herself as fighting the good fight for Marcie. But, we’ve seen her attempting to gate-keep Marcie’s relationships as a result. And despite her assumptions, we also seen Sal fail to take Marcie’s actual situation into account like when she started a fight thst got Marcie fired. It wasn’t an outcome that even occured to Sal, but that is the very problem right there..
I still remember the day I learned that selflessness is rare. Most seemingly selfless actions have a selfish reason. Boosting self-esteem. Earning or repaying a favour. Improving the mental image others have. Feeling better about oneself. Being appreciated. Feeling useful.
People are usually selfless when they gain something from it. And those who actually are truly selfless are usually treated badly.
Even as someone who is deeply cynical and generally reductionist, I don’t find a lot of value in the “all good deeds are just self-satisfying virtue signalling” concept. Pretty sure it doesn’t matter why you do the right thing, as long as you’re correctly factoring your own motivations into the assessment of why it’s right. Nobody else can see the motivations from the outside, after all, they just see what it is you actually do.
It does matter. A lot. If you were raised like me. My mother idealises selflessness to the degree of self-sacrifice. For her, it’s a way to prove herself worth of affection. And she passed it on to me. And my siblings.
Took me a while to get past that. My brother is slowly getting past it. We both paid our prices for it though. His is named burnout, mine is named ptsd, I wasn’t able to defend myself from someone who treated me really bad but instead tried to be perfect to earn the right to be treated better. My sister is aware of it but doesn’t see a problem with it. She thinks being selfless (she actually is truly selfless) makes her a better human. She also is treaded badly by coworkers and her social circle. She’s basically pushed around by everyone because she doesn’t defend herself from being exploited.
It doesn’t matter if you have a healthy amout of egoism to act as a counterweight. I’m not sure Amber has that. She does have a mother who was beaten by her husband, which usually is an indication of being raised like me.
I’d build on this by saying two more things; while many think that being “truly” selfless is a good thing, it isn’t. To willingly harm one’s self for no benefit is nothing but martyrdom at best, and being used at worst – neither option represents a healthy relationship to the world or one’s self.
Second, receiving a benefit from good works isn’t a bad thing – in fact, it’s probably the best model. In ensures that people’s incentives are properly aligned with socially-beneficial functions, and ensures that people who do good things are given a base of support so that they can continue to focus on doing good things.
Let’s take three simplified hypotheticals as an example, in a world without any organized charities; in one society where people are given a hundred dollars for every homeless person they feed, and one where a person has to pay out of pocket to feed the homeless. I think it’s safe to say that the first example would see “feeding the homeless” become a favorite pasttime of teenagers everywhere, right? While the second would probably only see the most obviously needy helped. Now let’s say in a third society, you have to give up your own meal in order to feed a homeless person. I think it’s safe to say that you’d see almost all homeless individuals starve. Would anyone say that the second scenario is better than the first, just because people are helping the poor for “impure” reasons in the first hypothetical? And the third is pretty much an atrocity any way you look at it, right? Even if it demands the most self-sacrifice?
Now, there are other issues to consider, certainly – such as whether a person’s deeds are truly beneficial to others or merely appear so, and whether a specific reward does more harm overall than the original problem – but the basic concept of good deeds should be recognized and rewarded isn’t a bad one. It rewards good people, encourages bad people to do good things, and ensures that helping others doesn’t drain too much of a person’s strength. Win-wins are better than win-loses.
I think there are two separate issues: How should we organize society to encourage the behavior we want? And what should we think of individuals who do good based on their motivations?
We do tend to think better of people who help without direct material reward. Which is itself part of our built in reward structure.
I don’t know that I agree that they’re separate issues – the second ties directly into the first.
Let’s say someone gives a beggar a sandwich to look good in front of her friends; if they understand the act to be performative in motivation, and mock her for it, then she’s not likely to do so again in the future, resulting in fewer people given charity in the future. Even people otherwise inclined to help might choose not to, if they’re concerned that others might also think it a stunt, or if they doubt their own motivations.
On the other hand, if those around the person instead played their “part” in the performance, being suitably appreciative of the stunt – or possibly playing it up by declaring their intent to help as well – then everyone is reminded of their obligations to the less fortunate, and we see more people helped in the future. Just because it’s obnoxious or the fact that the people being helped are of secondary importance doesn’t change the fact that more people are helped than there would have been otherwise.
In certain ways, people motivated by a desire to look virtuous can even be more reliable than those genuinely motivated to help others – in being given an external motivation, it allows pressure to be exerted on them. If people suggest they aren’t helping enough, or that it’s been a while since they last actually did anything, they can be encouraged to do more. Meanwhile, a person who just genuinely wants to help might lose that interest over time, or find their own unmet needs becoming a more pressing issue – and there’s not much anyone else can do about it, because they weren’t being rewarded for their efforts in the first place.
There’s value in clearly understanding people’s motivations – but to create a social penalty for a person’s self-interest ultimately does more harm than good, so long as people are genuinely being helped.
Ooh, nice. I didn’t catch that. I was thinking mostly about how stabbing Sal’s hand was the sort of “length nobody asked for” that Ethan was referring to. Sal is a victim of Amber’s over-the-top need to prove how sorry she was Ethan, yet the reason they were in that situation to begin with is Sal’s over-the-top need to prove how sorry she was to Marcie.
heh, I’ve noticed the fall colors in the trees. I don’t know how long I’ve been reading this comic but it’s beginning to be fall around here in real life. If I’m not mistaken it probably has been at least 2 years, if not 3. If somebody shows that I’ve been here for 3, I’m going to collapse into a sobbing wreck in a fetal position. Where, WHERE does the time go?
Amber may lament that it’s Sal the friend that is there with her this night, but I think she’s the friend she needs to be there. Someone who will not hold her hand and tell her “awww, no!” when feeling around in her mind for difficult truths.
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aww, bonding?
some kinda feels here, anyway
Feels above Sal’s pay grade.
That’s always a fun realization, Amber, but it’s good you recognize it.
Indeed. I am glad but also want to give her a warm, soft blanket and some slashfic.
The hardest lesson in your late teens/early 20s (and possibly beyond) is that just because your friend(s) are focused on other people, it doesn’t diminish your friendship and you don’t have to insert yourself in there.
It’s an even harder lesson if you’ve spent most of that time building up your self-esteem via that friendship in the first place.
I’m in this comment and i don’t like it
Here’s another one. Sometimes the closest friends you’ve had all your life become nothing more than acquaintances. Even strangers. People drift. That’s okay.
This can easily happen once you’re all out of school and going your own separate ways.
It took her a long time to realize this and a lot of shit has happened because of it. I’m really glad that she can try to move on from the self loathing at least a little. It’s a sort of narcissism to think you’re the cause of everyone’s problems.
it’s a good realization but I wouldn’t say it’s moving away from self flagellation. Indeed, as someone who does this on the reg, I can see that Amber is now beating herself up and withdrawing because she can’t be the friend that Ethan needs right now. This entire take is born out of self loathing – Amber has been through something more traumatic consistently throughout her life, and just because she’s weathered more damage than everyone else here does *not* mean she’s okay right now. Ethan has his own shit to deal with, it is not selfish for Amber to acknowledge that, as her oldest and closest friend, maybe she would like Ethan there for her right now.
It is good of her to respect his boundaries and acknowledge his hurt and not try to fix him as a distraction from her own pain, but the angle she is taking from it again is disparaging herself for her own coping mechanisms, wants and needs.
Literally no one else on this earth needs to put as much thought into their desires for human connection as Amber consistently does.
Amber basically needs a time machine to punch her dad in the face before he can suggest self-defense classes as an alternative to therapy, and then to arrange things VERY CAREFULLY so the one she gets knows how to compassionately and competently handle dissociation. (I feel safe saying AG existed by this point, but the girls never had to reach the self-loathing feedback loop that ultimately fueled Amber stabbing Ryan, the immense guilt/I’m a monster validation that ensued, and the two no longer sharing memories.)
Since she can’t time travel, I will also accept her getting that therapist NOW, intense amounts of mental health support, and probably some antidepressants given those self-destructive tendencies.
What if you’ve been made to feel as if you’re the cause of everyone’s problems? Narcissism (another one of those words that’s tossed around a little freely these days) is a pretty tough label to hang on that.
Yeah, probably, but I do stand by it in this case. Amber has treated people terribly because she’s treated their actions as personal attacks on her. People like Sal, Joyce, Ethan, Danny. I think it’s fair.
Oh twisted
Under sideways down
I know we’re getting twisted
And you can’t calm down…”–The Cars
Why’s Ethan not here? I forget.
Looking after Mike at the hospital.
… Oh. Yeah, that makes sense. I thought that Amber had somehow pissed him off again, ’cause she does that.
Same, thanks for getting it explained for me
Same. I thought I’d forgotten some fight they had recently.
They did also have a… not full fight, but discussion/Ethan stating he’s kind of tapped out because of this exact tendency of Amber’s. I don’t think he’s fully pissed at her, but he does need that space. (Though yeah, ‘you’ve been dissociating to the point of not sharing memories and not telling anyone it reached that point, and this put us all in danger and left Mike alone in a hospital for 36 hours, what the HELL?’ is also a factor there and totally warranted.)
He also blames Amber for not telling anyone Mike was in the hospital to begin with, for not addressing and treating her dissociation so it came to actually hurt people.
What I don’t get is Sal’s apparent … resonance with this soliloquy? Does she take ownership of someone’s grief? Oh, Marcie. She’s taking ownership of Marcie’s pain, now I get it.
Mike.
Seems to me that Sal is taking a hit in the feels, as Amber’s statement echos what she thinking about Marcie.
Last couple of chapters have been very interesting when it comes to Amber and her growth. She’s learned both when’s the right time to keep certain people close to her in order to not take them for granted and the right time to give those she cares for distance when they need some time apart from her.
This is good development.
GOD DAMN IT WILLIS. WHY YOU GOTTA ALWAYS HIT ME WITH THE FEELS!?
I have always had this weird connection with Amber, this particular comic is just big “ooooof” right in the gut
With Danny on the roof, it’s probably for the better that Ethan isn’t.
I find it interesting that it is Amber who is surrounding herself with people while Ethan isn’t. (I somehow find this entirely in-character despite generalizations about their past behavior)
More interesting is that Joyce is with Amber and not Ethan.
Eh. I think it’s more that Joyce is with everyone and Ethan isn’t everyone.
Also, Ethan is with Mike, and Joyce doesn’t want to spend time with Mike.
Ethan is trying to surround Mike with people.
If you know someone hospitalized, esp. for longer than overnight, consider visiting them. I felt warm inside with every visit, even if the surgery/ anaesthetic scrambled my memory.
That’s a very difficult concept to understand emotionally for many ppl-that you can’t fix everything, and shouldn’t try
Btw, Dave Will is- love the mouseovers lately, especially this one.
And Stephen bierce- lovvve the music quotes!
I’m glad I learnt that lesson when I was still in my mid-teens, but at the same time, it would have been kinda nice if I hadn’t had to learn it the hard way.
Also now I’m a parent and have smoll people who look at me to fix everything. But the tiny mainly wants a cuddle/milk/attention/nappy change, and the toddler’s sads can mainly be fixed with a cuddle, food, distraction or sleep. The five year old has had a tough year and when she gets anxiety brain it’s a bit harder as logic doesn’t always help… When the anxiety takes the form of “what if a bad person/witch/fairy tries to take me away/hurt me?” insisting flat out that Mummy and Daddy are way more powerful helps. When it takes the form of “I wish I was dead so I didn’t need to worry about dying/I want to live forever” telling her that she needs to eat healthily, exercise, sleep well, and pay a modicum of attention to her surroundings then helps… But it would be nice to stamp out the anxiety so those fears don’t crop up repeatedly…
Another thing some folks fail to understand is that some people can’t be “fixed”. Some of us have to live with the mistakes we’ve made, the best we can.
That oof. Just…just…*sniffle* sorry I can’t make a joke about this one. As you were commenters. *cries into pillow*
The mouseover text is aptly named.
I can’t figure the text out myself. Is it a Peanuts reference?
I was thinking Monty Python and the Holy Grail
yup
Sometimes you have to fix something, but other times there’s nothing to fix. A relationship can be destroyed when trust is lost. Cheating on your girlfriend? That is a stab in the back of her. Beating your wife? That is multiples stabs in her back. Isolating your children from society? That is like preparing them to be sacrificial lambs.
Maybe Amber can fix her relationship with Ethan, but that will take a lot of time. It will take more time for Danny to fix what he did, more time for Jacob to forgive Joyce, and… let’;s be honest, Joyce and her family (except John) won’t forgive Carol because she nuked her relationship with them.
You think you had something to prove and someone got hurt…
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/prove/
A+ reference
That’s the hard part of doing the right thing: Parsing your own motives because that will seriously impact on how you go about it.
Actually, I think that the time has come t roll end credits to the ‘The Incredible Hulk’ TV show’s unforgettable end credits music ‘The Lonely Man’. Of all the heroes in the Marvel universe, Amber in many ways matches Dr Bruce Banner. Sal her her own ‘red on the ledger’ to resolve although she’s learning less destructive ways of doing so.
yessss, character development
This is probably one of the saddest yet most beautiful strips so far.
Maybe it’s due to me being a young person who hasn’t yet reached emotional maturity reading about young people fumbling through reaching emotional maturity, but a some of these more emotional strips are hard to understand for me, at least compared to how well most of the other people in the comment section seem to understand them.
I mean, I understand what Amber is saying here, at least I think, but I have a lot of trouble actually matching this up with all her past actions and what specifically it would be referring to, so it gets kinda confusing for me.
You’re not alone. I’m kinda confused about what’s going on in this particular strip too.
I’m fairly sure this is referencing the conversation that Amber had with Ethan where she apologised and Ethan said that he never doubted how sorry she was but it made it difficult for him to truly feel anger or remorse because she would go to far lengths to try to fix things and prove she was apologetic and how Amber acted to Sal before.
Amber in the past has acted as AG due to feeling like she FAILED Ethan by not protecting him at the convenience store. Becoming AG became a way to selfishly control Ethan’s pain under a mask of selflessness, by turning herself into both a weapon and shield for him. She tried to shield him from Sal by warning him. She tried to fight Sal, to defeat her, to prove she could defend him. Amber acting as AG centers around trying to be the barrier between Ethan and Sal. Which does partially come from you know, Blaine saying it was all her fault for not protecting him and you know, her own extensive trauma from the event telling her their meeting would likely be horrible for Ethan, even though it put herself in the place to be hurt instead.
AG also seemed to be on board with these motives and feelings until she realised that Sal wasn’t actually that bad after all.
But when Ethan actually saw Sal again? It was awkward but he was fine. The lengths Amber went to for him were all unnecessary in trying to manage his pain.
Sal finds this relatable because her own actions with Marcie have some parallels to this. She centered herself as the person to try to fix Marcie’s pain and to always be there for her when Marcie didn’t need her to. She took on responsibility for her suffering that wasn’t hers to take.
Both Amber and Sal tried to insert themselves into someone else’s feelings and fix them where it wasn’t their place to fix them and Amber is learning she doesn’t need to do selfless grand gestures for other people to selfishly prove herself and they don’t want her to or to try to take responsibility for their feelings. Ethan just wants a friend he can talk to, not a superhero trying to protect him and Marcie just wants a friend, not someone who will try to fight for her honour and always escalate situations.
Of course this isn’t solely because of that. Amber also has extensive trauma that has gone untreated for a long time that contributed to her views, actions and beliefs which Ethan didn’t seem to quite get for a long time (as he basically moved on from the first hostage situation while Amber’s brain was stuck in it and unable to move forward so she couldn’t let it go), and at home, Sal mentioning Marcie always escalated into a fight whether she wanted it to or not because Linda is an unreasonable parent so of course she won’t listen, she’ll escalate until they’re both shouting. The circumstances around them helped cement their views in the past, and now they are unlearning them.
Excellent summary. I could quibble a little, but this does a nice job of covering the various emotional bases. Well done.
A really great explanation.
To add my own too cents, its not just that Amber and Sal were acting as unnecessary protectors, but by doing so were actively creating problems for their friends.
Ethan just outright told Amber he can never allow himself to be upset arround her, much less with her, because then she goes and does something insane. Like develop another disassociated identity. Which just makes Ethan feel worse.
And, as my own aside, if she isn’t doing something insane, she’s emotionally unavailable because she’s kicking trees or speaking only in emoji.
Sal saw herself as fighting the good fight for Marcie. But, we’ve seen her attempting to gate-keep Marcie’s relationships as a result. And despite her assumptions, we also seen Sal fail to take Marcie’s actual situation into account like when she started a fight thst got Marcie fired. It wasn’t an outcome that even occured to Sal, but that is the very problem right there..
Excellent post.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense, thanks.
Aw she’s learning
I still remember the day I learned that selflessness is rare. Most seemingly selfless actions have a selfish reason. Boosting self-esteem. Earning or repaying a favour. Improving the mental image others have. Feeling better about oneself. Being appreciated. Feeling useful.
People are usually selfless when they gain something from it. And those who actually are truly selfless are usually treated badly.
Even as someone who is deeply cynical and generally reductionist, I don’t find a lot of value in the “all good deeds are just self-satisfying virtue signalling” concept. Pretty sure it doesn’t matter why you do the right thing, as long as you’re correctly factoring your own motivations into the assessment of why it’s right. Nobody else can see the motivations from the outside, after all, they just see what it is you actually do.
This. Actions speak for themselves.
It does matter. A lot. If you were raised like me. My mother idealises selflessness to the degree of self-sacrifice. For her, it’s a way to prove herself worth of affection. And she passed it on to me. And my siblings.
Took me a while to get past that. My brother is slowly getting past it. We both paid our prices for it though. His is named burnout, mine is named ptsd, I wasn’t able to defend myself from someone who treated me really bad but instead tried to be perfect to earn the right to be treated better. My sister is aware of it but doesn’t see a problem with it. She thinks being selfless (she actually is truly selfless) makes her a better human. She also is treaded badly by coworkers and her social circle. She’s basically pushed around by everyone because she doesn’t defend herself from being exploited.
It doesn’t matter if you have a healthy amout of egoism to act as a counterweight. I’m not sure Amber has that. She does have a mother who was beaten by her husband, which usually is an indication of being raised like me.
I’d build on this by saying two more things; while many think that being “truly” selfless is a good thing, it isn’t. To willingly harm one’s self for no benefit is nothing but martyrdom at best, and being used at worst – neither option represents a healthy relationship to the world or one’s self.
Second, receiving a benefit from good works isn’t a bad thing – in fact, it’s probably the best model. In ensures that people’s incentives are properly aligned with socially-beneficial functions, and ensures that people who do good things are given a base of support so that they can continue to focus on doing good things.
Let’s take three simplified hypotheticals as an example, in a world without any organized charities; in one society where people are given a hundred dollars for every homeless person they feed, and one where a person has to pay out of pocket to feed the homeless. I think it’s safe to say that the first example would see “feeding the homeless” become a favorite pasttime of teenagers everywhere, right? While the second would probably only see the most obviously needy helped. Now let’s say in a third society, you have to give up your own meal in order to feed a homeless person. I think it’s safe to say that you’d see almost all homeless individuals starve. Would anyone say that the second scenario is better than the first, just because people are helping the poor for “impure” reasons in the first hypothetical? And the third is pretty much an atrocity any way you look at it, right? Even if it demands the most self-sacrifice?
Now, there are other issues to consider, certainly – such as whether a person’s deeds are truly beneficial to others or merely appear so, and whether a specific reward does more harm overall than the original problem – but the basic concept of good deeds should be recognized and rewarded isn’t a bad one. It rewards good people, encourages bad people to do good things, and ensures that helping others doesn’t drain too much of a person’s strength. Win-wins are better than win-loses.
I think there are two separate issues: How should we organize society to encourage the behavior we want? And what should we think of individuals who do good based on their motivations?
We do tend to think better of people who help without direct material reward. Which is itself part of our built in reward structure.
I don’t know that I agree that they’re separate issues – the second ties directly into the first.
Let’s say someone gives a beggar a sandwich to look good in front of her friends; if they understand the act to be performative in motivation, and mock her for it, then she’s not likely to do so again in the future, resulting in fewer people given charity in the future. Even people otherwise inclined to help might choose not to, if they’re concerned that others might also think it a stunt, or if they doubt their own motivations.
On the other hand, if those around the person instead played their “part” in the performance, being suitably appreciative of the stunt – or possibly playing it up by declaring their intent to help as well – then everyone is reminded of their obligations to the less fortunate, and we see more people helped in the future. Just because it’s obnoxious or the fact that the people being helped are of secondary importance doesn’t change the fact that more people are helped than there would have been otherwise.
In certain ways, people motivated by a desire to look virtuous can even be more reliable than those genuinely motivated to help others – in being given an external motivation, it allows pressure to be exerted on them. If people suggest they aren’t helping enough, or that it’s been a while since they last actually did anything, they can be encouraged to do more. Meanwhile, a person who just genuinely wants to help might lose that interest over time, or find their own unmet needs becoming a more pressing issue – and there’s not much anyone else can do about it, because they weren’t being rewarded for their efforts in the first place.
There’s value in clearly understanding people’s motivations – but to create a social penalty for a person’s self-interest ultimately does more harm than good, so long as people are genuinely being helped.
I’m also guessing that Amber isn’t over her crush on Ethan. That makes it all the worse for her.
Amber is basically talking to herself here, but stabs Sal right in the feels.
Ooh, nice. I didn’t catch that. I was thinking mostly about how stabbing Sal’s hand was the sort of “length nobody asked for” that Ethan was referring to. Sal is a victim of Amber’s over-the-top need to prove how sorry she was Ethan, yet the reason they were in that situation to begin with is Sal’s over-the-top need to prove how sorry she was to Marcie.
(Darn it, replied to the wrong post! This was meant for Rabisch’s “Sal just thinks about all the past Marcie’s thing”)
And Sal just thinks about all the past Marcie’s thing.
This scene is totally not passing the Bechdel Test.
There is a middle ground between all conversations must pass the Bechdel test and only rare conversations pass.
Ethan has grounds to be angry at quite a few people right now.
Starting with Mike and followed by himself.
heh, I’ve noticed the fall colors in the trees. I don’t know how long I’ve been reading this comic but it’s beginning to be fall around here in real life. If I’m not mistaken it probably has been at least 2 years, if not 3. If somebody shows that I’ve been here for 3, I’m going to collapse into a sobbing wreck in a fetal position. Where, WHERE does the time go?
Yer supposed to have been here for ten.
only discovered it that long ago, but I did go to the first comic and binge.
I do that with pretty much every comic I ‘discover’. I can spent weeks catching up on something that’s been going for 10 plus years.
Amber may lament that it’s Sal the friend that is there with her this night, but I think she’s the friend she needs to be there. Someone who will not hold her hand and tell her “awww, no!” when feeling around in her mind for difficult truths.
I guess this is growing up
This is basically the Amber page I’ve been waiting years for.
I was so focused on Danny danning his chances with Ethan that I forgot about Amber and Ethan. Good reminder strip. Well-timed.
Holy alt text Batman, I think this is the first time I can remember Sir Willis making a Monty Python reference.
-cue several posts with links showing my memory is faulty.
You’re probably right, but does the first comment count? https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/saying/
I love Amber & Sal, I want them to be friends c: