Though if you’ve ever picked up a cookie that looks like chocolate chip, but then you bite into it and realize it’s oatmeal raisins, you’ll probably want to kill others
Around here almost all the convenience store sell Gradma’s Cookies which come in four varieties, Oatmeal Raisin, Chocolate Chip, Pecan, and some monstrosity called double Chocolate or something like that. So Oatmeal Raisin is never further away than your nearest gas station.
I think I’ve told this story before, but back in the before times we had an office party and somebody brought in a big cookie platter. Chocolate chip disappeared first, then the chocolate/chocolate and sugar cookies. The oatmeal raisin ones barely got touched. The two or three of us who liked oatmeal raisin got to have as many cookies as we wanted, everybody else only got one or two.
Plus you get to tell yourself they’re healthier, just like carrot cake!
Self preservation tip: Don’t ever intentionally give oatmeal raisin to team chocolate chip. You’re risking your survival.
And definitely don’t give anybody either one with nuts in it. You’ll get a face full of cookie spit before they kill you.
Ironically, biting into a chocolate chip cookie that I thought was oatmeal raisin WILL kill me.
Well, technically not because I only avoid chocolate for cross-contact reasons, but after thirty-five years of treating it like a poison my brain will assume it’s gonna kill me.
There used to be a commercial for “Quaker Oatmeal Squares.” The character, played as a heavy accented Scotsman, loves the cereal, but can’t believe it’s oatmeal because; “Oatmeal is nasty, grey stuff, thick enough to stop a bullet!”
What are the chances Becky comes in right as Joyce says some religion bashing bullshit she only half means to parrot Liz? Cause I’m feeling like that’s very likely right now.
While the probability is significant, it’s far less than unity. Willis likes to dangle the shoe for awhile and then let it drop when you no longer expect it.
Honestly to me, this seems like one of the more likely scenarios.
They’re just trying to show off to each other how “cool” they are (by the other’s definition), and are caught in a kind of quasi-Pygmalion-effect cycle where they’re trying to out-do or impress each other with more and more intense demonstrations of what they think makes for a “worldly” person.
The million-dollar question is, what’s eventually gonna break the cycle? Just how far are either of them gonna go?
The only logical conclusion is proving that they don’t think there’s an invisible skydaddy who gets mad when you grind on the wrong crotch by grinding on each other’s crotch, like a game of atheist chicken.
It’s basically why I’m personally leaning towards view that atheism is basically just another belief system, at least in some cases – you still have the zealots trying to proselytise you, just without the fancy rituals and places of worship.
to be frank, the “atheism is just the same as a religion” line is pretty obnoxious too. ya, there’s atheists who are assholes. but the war on christmas is imaginary and the war on reproductive rights is real.
and I don’t think it’s wholey the same thing as ‘zeal of the convert’. A fresh apostate can be angry at themselves, their past selves, at how stupid they think they themselves were. It’s not the same as trying to prove oneself to a congregation.
Not all religions do that thing either, which is why I find it odd that saying atheism is basically a religion unto itself would imply all of those things. You’re comparing Atheism being a religion DIRECTLY to Western (not to make assumptions but presumably American) Christian values rather than the idea of literally every religion on earth. I find THAT pretty obnoxious as well.
True that as well.
I’m a very religious neo-pagan, and I don’t give a salty shit what anyone else is as long as they aren’t trying to take away my rights.
“Atheism” is not a religion, for the same reason that “monotheism” isn’t a religion, and “polytheism” isn’t a religion either.
There actually do exist some atheistic religions, like some varieties of Buddhism (I think). But “atheism” by itself is not a religion, for the same reason that monotheism and polytheism isn’t.
Among other crucial differences, religions have rules of “dos” and “don’t”. They codify the behavior of their adherents, they say that this is what you’re allowed to do, this is what you’re obliged to do, this is what you mustn’t do.
Atheism just states a fact about the universe: There isn’t a god.
Well said, Huehuetotl, about the war on Christmas vs the war on reproductive rights.
The weirdest thing about the ‘war on Christmas’ BS is that generic phrases like “happy holidays” have been used for decades if not centuries. It’s only recently that people decided that those phrases were some sort of attack. Ugh.
I can’t blame Joyce for being not-scared of oatmeal. My parents would often have a bowl of it for breakfast, and to this day any mention of the stuff will cause me to remember the slurping noises they’d make in their later years. Funny how the people who teach you good manners can slack off themselves…
That was my initial reaction too—mostly because the words Liz is using, like skydaddy, reek of condescension—but what she’s literally saying is that people are morons if they believe in a god that condemns people for their sexuality, and…I really can’t fault that logic. Again, condescending words like “skydaddy” imply that she thinks all religious folk are morons, which is unfair, but all she’s actually said is that homophobic religious folk are morons, which is…much more fair.
I’m not sure you’re following the direction of Liz’s logic here, accompanied with that leftward glance. If there is no invisible sky daddy up there to get mad if they grind on the wrong crotches, there’s no reason those crotches couldn’t be hers and Joyce’s.
Pretty sure that’s hearing what isn’t there. This looks to me like attempts to be cooler than thou, with Liz’s side eye checking for Joyce’s reaction. As others note, the question is where all this will end – likely nowhere good.
The first time I discovered the Flying Spaghetti Monster it certainly gave me an energetic turn. But you get used to anything in time. Nowadays I hardly notice it at all.
Oh dear. What about Becky dear Joyce? She’s a lesbian who has embraced evolution and all things science, has a girlfriend, and is a practicing Christian! I am concerned at some point Joyce is going to invalidate Becky’s beliefs, albeit unintentionally, at some point with this type of talk.
(To be clear, just in case. This is not me trying to discredit Joyce and what she believes. I am glad she is taking a deep and introspective look at her current faith and the one she grew up with. I’m just afraid she’ll hurt Becky instead of being honest with her friend about her being an atheist now)
Of course it’s not clear Joyce actually believes this, rather than just playing up to Liz. She’s certainly lost her faith, but the whole “Christians are morons and I’m a brain genius” thing isn’t like Joyce at all.
…Yeah, even as an embittered ex-Christian turned atheist, what Liz is saying kinda worries me.
Like, it can be easy for me, when I’m being an idiot, to slip into that mentality of disdain, especially since I’ve got a lot of pain attached to my memories of being religious. And of some of the worse things I used to believe. But I’ve seen too many smart religious people, both good and bad, to ever buy into that line of thinking for too long.
Before the arc started with Liz showing up, one of the common guesses was that the title referred to Becky finding out the truth about Joyce losing her faith. I think that guess was right after all– any minute now, Becky will come through that door and hear this. The conversation is a ticking time bomb.
It is definitely easier for individuals, especially when religion has been harmful to them or they have become aware of how harmful some of its practices are, to then assume that anyone who does have faith is a moron. That they have mentally failed to unravel and see the truth that it is bad. Especially when you are a young adult and think you are just logically piecing everything together at last.
And there are some valid criticisms to be had of any religion, none will be perfect and without flaws which feeds into this view. Like I personally don’t think AA’s 12 steps should be so structured around Christianity and finding faith and I don’t think telling people they are powerless is a helpful thing to do ever.
But it is ultimately very unkind to then decide every religious person is stupid or to act as if they themselves are unable to see their own religion’s flaws and disagree with them while still having faith. You can have faith and acknowledge flaws exist.
Smart people can believe strange things because -nobody- is like a logic-wizard only thinking smart things from the moment of birth. Because that’s not the human experience. We have emotions, we have fears, we have things we like, things we don’t understand, and they’re not all identical for everyone. Mortality can be a lot to deal with. The unknown can be extremely discomforting.
Do you think Richard Dawkins himself intended for that, or are those types of atheists merely appropriating his name as a front for their disparate causes?
I was thinking it was more a case of people who were offended and disagreed with him appropriating his name for use on other disparate people they also disagree with.
While not remotely an atheist, I also belong to the anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as I do is an idiot school. But that is mostly because I believe that people in general, including myself, are idiots. I think the evidence is pretty incontrovertible.
Pretty much. He’s also got a nasty islamophobic streak, and no, that’s not just that he disaproves of all religions and Islam is one, although he tries to sell it as that.
I was blown away by The Blind Watchmaker when I was a kid, so this is distressing to see.
There was his Dear Muslima piece, where he portrays Muslim women as all being beaten, banned from driving and having fgm inflicted on them (and all in the service of telling American women (who are assumed to not be Muslim) to stop complaining about sexual harassment).
Which has the nice bonus of also being misogynistic. He’s also had some unfortunate comments about trans people.
Pretty much a reflection of how “New Atheism” fed into the anti-SJW, alt-right movement.
I know that this is a long video (20 min), but I think it is really relevant to what’s happening here with Dawkins and the American Humanist Association, especially the parts pertaining to honest attempts at discussion and bogus claims of motif.
Not that everyone would take the time to watch the whole thing, but if you did, would still you agree with the AHA’s decision to dishonor Dawkins? Why or why not?
On the flip side western pseudo-progressives in America have seemingly utterly *abandoned* and *betrayed* the concept of promoting human, feminist or LGBT rights in the islamic world, because they don’t want to sound like islamophobic Republicans who bash muslims.
In the service of “not sounding like Republicans”, the pseudo-progressives in the United States have ended up effectively supporting the mass OPPRESSION and MURDER of atheists, women and/or sexual/romatnic minorities all over the Islamic world.
Frankly that’s a right wing talking point. The Right Wing allies strongly with authoritarian repressive regimes and attempts to portray every Muslim nation as Saudi Arabia, ignoring they compromise a third of the Earth.
Yeah, definitely a right wing talking point. It also ignores the repressive Christian nations – often backed by US missionaries. It’s particularly great fun when you see near fascists pretending they’re really LGBTQ allies because they want to kill Muslims who are the real enemies.
Promoting human rights in other countries is not an easy task for any group and it often founders on realpolitik concerns. Starting off by condemning an entire religion usually isn’t an effective approach though.
You kinda just proved my point. You don’t actually want to talk about religious oppression of minorities in dozens of countries around the world, because it’s a supposed “right-wing talking point”. You guys seemingly try to silence condemnation of such criticism of religious oppression by CALLING it a “right-wing talking point”.
Well, fuck those “us missionaries” who back repressive Christian nations (I live in a Christian nation whose state-backed church back and are backed by every fascist piece of neonazi scum, so my own loathing is primarily directed towards Christianity), but the pseudo-progressive unite states democrats don’t seem to ever allow criticism of Islam. Because that might make them sound like Republicans.
Condemning an entire religion? Oh, noes, let’s not condemn an institutionh of horrific oppression of hundreds of millions of people. It might make us sound “right-wing” after all. /s
Well, my point of view is that unless unless supposed progressives start condemning religion (preferably all religions, but *at the very least* the homophobic and misogynist religions like the vast majority of Judaism, Christianity and yeah Islam) as an oppressive institution and a lie, their supposed progressiveness is a very very bogus lie.
The “right wing talking point” is that liberals are soft on Islam, not whatever it is you’re claiming.
The problem with condemning Islam in the current American climate is that it leads directly to hate crimes against Muslims at home and indirectly to military atrocities overseas. Neither of which helps the victims of religious oppression.
If its no “atheists are geniuses” then the logical alternative is “everyone with more than 2 brain cells is an atheist”.
Not sure which is more annoying.
It’s almost like religion as an abstract concept has nothing to do with all of the issues that people like to blame it for, when those things are actually human issues more broadly and don’t go away just because there’s no longer an appeal to supernatural forces to explain why things happen or how people should act.
True, but even given that, religion is a very powerful tool for manipulating people. Those issues don’t go away, but it’s a lot harder to weaponize them.
Its the edgy atheist phase. Sadly a good portion of us go through it.
Its a combination of factors including frustration at ourselves for believing in it for so long when it seems obviously wrong now. Most grow out of it and its certainly not okay.
Avoidance of smugness is certainly a consequence of what Zen Buddhists are trying to get practitioners to understand with that phrase, but it’s definitely not the point of that phrase,and I don’t think it makes sense to use it the way you’re using it there.
Sarah really watches every step Joyce takes. I love her♡. I wonder how Dorothy will react to the discovery that Joyce is an atheist now and if Becky will think is all her fault and will begin to hate Dorothy for real.
That’s what I’m fully expecting to happen too. Becky will walk in on Liz saying something about how Christians are basically “mentally deficient bigots who should all go hang” and Joyce will blindly agree, desperate not to tarnish her new atheist friendship, and then cut to Becky with a :O expression in the doorway.
Liz is starting to come off to me as one of those a-hole atheists who look down on and judge someone for having belief in something. Like the a-hole religious people, just other end of the spectrum.
… Liz is just as insecure about her atheistic “conversion” as Joyce is, isn’t she?
Because this sounds exactly like so many “newfound atheists” I’ve known, who feel driven to hate on what they used to love as hard as they can to show how ‘over it’ they are, because they really aren’t sure if they are over it at all, but they really, really feel like they should be.
Give it a few years, and they’ll realize that, if it actually isn’t real, they won’t need to spend all their waking hours obsessing about how “not real” it is.
There’s a few causes of it, but that’s certainly one. Another I found is frustration at having believe in it for so long when it seems so obviously wrong to them now.
Joyce & Liz’s problem is they think that passing out the very low bar of not believing in the invisible boogeyman (basically figuring out that Santa Claus doesn’t exist) actually makes them smart.
That’s a very VERY low bar. Lots of idiots succeed in passing it. And since (in Western countries) atheists usually no longer get killed for being atheists, it doesn’t require *that* much bravery or integrity either. (though of course it depends on personal circumstances, like family etc)
Actually, I’d argue that Liz is just being a bigot and ignoring a lot of very smart people believe in God. You may believe that is stupid but she’s insulting some of Joyce’s friends.
yeah, this was basically how I talked in college, though I had become an atheist all the way back in middle school so I was basically ahead of all the talking points with my college friends.
It now occurs to me that perhaps Joyce’s oatmeal thing is related to the “mess of pottage” that Jacob paid Esau for his birthright in Genesis 25:29–34.
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“bc if I WANTED to die, I can TOTES believe if I touch it, I’ll die AND not be scared of it”
Still, I feel there’s still an essential difference between that and respecting oatmeal.
*pauses while eating his daily oatmeal breakfast to consider this*
Silly Joyce. Oatmeal won’t kill you.
Though if you’ve ever picked up a cookie that looks like chocolate chip, but then you bite into it and realize it’s oatmeal raisins, you’ll probably want to kill others
I’m in the exact opposite camp … oatmeal raisin cookies for Everyone!
Where’s mine?
I kind of feel, that it’s the raisins and cookie components drowning out the oatmeal taste that make it work tho.
Like living life on the edge, eh?
I wish I could get oatmeal raisin. The Safeways around here only sell oatmeal “craisin”. Meh.
Around here almost all the convenience store sell Gradma’s Cookies which come in four varieties, Oatmeal Raisin, Chocolate Chip, Pecan, and some monstrosity called double Chocolate or something like that. So Oatmeal Raisin is never further away than your nearest gas station.
I love double chocolate. Give them to me!
….Granted, I’ve never heard of that brand.
Grandma’s is about an 8 out of 10 for commercial single-serving cookies.
Better yet is if you use the chocolate chip recipe but substitute raisins for the chips. Put em in an airtight container and age for a week. Yummy.
I think I’ve told this story before, but back in the before times we had an office party and somebody brought in a big cookie platter. Chocolate chip disappeared first, then the chocolate/chocolate and sugar cookies. The oatmeal raisin ones barely got touched. The two or three of us who liked oatmeal raisin got to have as many cookies as we wanted, everybody else only got one or two.
Plus you get to tell yourself they’re healthier, just like carrot cake!
Self preservation tip: Don’t ever intentionally give oatmeal raisin to team chocolate chip. You’re risking your survival.
And definitely don’t give anybody either one with nuts in it. You’ll get a face full of cookie spit before they kill you.
Also, I’m reasonably sure enough oatmeal would kill you.
At the extreme, enough oatmeal would collapse into a black hole and take you with it.
I used to just eat around the raisins.
For some strange reason, I always though that was kinda fun.
Yknow I don’t understand why everyone hates oatmeal raisin cookies them shits are good. Maybe I’m just too white to have good taste.
I like both, but I think it’s a combination of “expecting one thing, getting another” and “aww, I wanted my sweet hit of theobromine.”
I’m definitely having a button made up that says “Too white to have good taste.”
Ironically, biting into a chocolate chip cookie that I thought was oatmeal raisin WILL kill me.
Well, technically not because I only avoid chocolate for cross-contact reasons, but after thirty-five years of treating it like a poison my brain will assume it’s gonna kill me.
Real oatmeal should be thick enough to stand on!
And these two flakes are being pretty thick.
There used to be a commercial for “Quaker Oatmeal Squares.” The character, played as a heavy accented Scotsman, loves the cereal, but can’t believe it’s oatmeal because; “Oatmeal is nasty, grey stuff, thick enough to stop a bullet!”
What are the chances Becky comes in right as Joyce says some religion bashing bullshit she only half means to parrot Liz? Cause I’m feeling like that’s very likely right now.
Approaching unity.
While the probability is significant, it’s far less than unity. Willis likes to dangle the shoe for awhile and then let it drop when you no longer expect it.
I was thinking that too but I also agree with Clif
I’m kinda expecting it to happen at this point.
Ooooh, dear, new atheists.
Soon she will instinctively migrate to reddit. That’s when the REAL corruption begins.
Migration corrupts. Migration to Reddit corrupts absolutely.
Or something like that.
I wonder, just how do you think Dina would react to Joyce’s and Liz’s new attitudes, having presumably been an atheist all her life?
Their beliefs are not dinosaur-centric so I imagine she will not linger heavily on them.
Though if Becky hears what they are saying then Dina will be not so pleased.
You mean like she was here?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/animalcrossin/
Recent converts are the worst.
Okay. The direction of Liz’s comments just took, an interesting turn.
Oh boy, she’s gonna be one of THOSE atheists for a while, isn’t she.
As long as it’s only a little while, I’ll cheerfully forgive her. It’s the ones that never get past that stage that really get on my nerves.
… huh.
This comment made me have a thought.
I’m kinda wondering… IS Liz actually an atheist, or is she trying too hard to make Joyce like her? And Joyce is trying too hard to make Liz like her.
I dunno – I guess I’m wondering if they aren’t both protesting too much?
I honestly wasn’t even sure I should post this, but if I turn out to be right randomly, I want to be able to point to this post as proof of my genius.
Honestly to me, this seems like one of the more likely scenarios.
They’re just trying to show off to each other how “cool” they are (by the other’s definition), and are caught in a kind of quasi-Pygmalion-effect cycle where they’re trying to out-do or impress each other with more and more intense demonstrations of what they think makes for a “worldly” person.
The million-dollar question is, what’s eventually gonna break the cycle? Just how far are either of them gonna go?
The only logical conclusion is proving that they don’t think there’s an invisible skydaddy who gets mad when you grind on the wrong crotch by grinding on each other’s crotch, like a game of atheist chicken.
I think they’re both at about the same point in figuring that out, but each is looking at the other like they’re ten steps ahead.
My guess is both are athiests or at least agnostic but up playing there worldliness and distaine for religion for the other.
I love Sarah being the voice of sisterly reason here.
Ah yes. The opposite of the “new in christ” archetype. The “new in atheism” attitude. Both are pretty annoying to be around.
Two sides of the same coin in some ways.
It’s basically why I’m personally leaning towards view that atheism is basically just another belief system, at least in some cases – you still have the zealots trying to proselytise you, just without the fancy rituals and places of worship.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodAtheist
Dorothy is the antithesis of this trope.
to be frank, the “atheism is just the same as a religion” line is pretty obnoxious too. ya, there’s atheists who are assholes. but the war on christmas is imaginary and the war on reproductive rights is real.
and I don’t think it’s wholey the same thing as ‘zeal of the convert’. A fresh apostate can be angry at themselves, their past selves, at how stupid they think they themselves were. It’s not the same as trying to prove oneself to a congregation.
That’s why I said “in some cases”.
Not all religions do that thing either, which is why I find it odd that saying atheism is basically a religion unto itself would imply all of those things. You’re comparing Atheism being a religion DIRECTLY to Western (not to make assumptions but presumably American) Christian values rather than the idea of literally every religion on earth. I find THAT pretty obnoxious as well.
True that as well.
I’m a very religious neo-pagan, and I don’t give a salty shit what anyone else is as long as they aren’t trying to take away my rights.
“Atheism” is not a religion, for the same reason that “monotheism” isn’t a religion, and “polytheism” isn’t a religion either.
There actually do exist some atheistic religions, like some varieties of Buddhism (I think). But “atheism” by itself is not a religion, for the same reason that monotheism and polytheism isn’t.
Among other crucial differences, religions have rules of “dos” and “don’t”. They codify the behavior of their adherents, they say that this is what you’re allowed to do, this is what you’re obliged to do, this is what you mustn’t do.
Atheism just states a fact about the universe: There isn’t a god.
Nothing there about how you should behave.
Well said, Huehuetotl, about the war on Christmas vs the war on reproductive rights.
The weirdest thing about the ‘war on Christmas’ BS is that generic phrases like “happy holidays” have been used for decades if not centuries. It’s only recently that people decided that those phrases were some sort of attack. Ugh.
Zeal of the Convert as a pattern of behaviour applies to more than just religion, I think.
You can take the religion out of a fanatic, but you’re still left with a fanatic.
Zeal of the Convert, y’know.
Agreed
I still find the “new in christ” types more annoying.
I can’t blame Joyce for being not-scared of oatmeal. My parents would often have a bowl of it for breakfast, and to this day any mention of the stuff will cause me to remember the slurping noises they’d make in their later years. Funny how the people who teach you good manners can slack off themselves…
My oatmeal is never slurpable. I mix it with the smallest amount of water that gets it wet enough to be a stiff mud, never liquid.
Ugh. Eating noises…
I don’t know what’s worse: slurping, or that hollow, popping sound people make when they eat corn on the cob.
I’m with Joyce on oatmeal.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, you’re both right. If you touch Oatmeal, you will die.
The two events are unlikely to be related in any way, but it it’ll definitely end up happening.
*plays Herbie Hancock’s “Rock It” on the hacked Muzak* (If you’ve seen the video you’d know why.)
Oatmeal, proof of the non-existence of a loving God?
Oatmeal is cheap and efficient. It’s not fine eating but in times of scarcity it is immensely useful.
Oatmeal is also fairly tasty on its own, and serves as an excellent platform for consuming small amounts of other foods.
Hopefully you won’t have to learn that the hard way.
Oatmeal seems like a nice break, really.
But it’s high in fiber, low in calories, and has no cholesterol whatsoever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVIewv1K3CA
Ah. Big yikes on THAT attitude there Liz – hopefully Joyce can see the fault in the logic.
That was my initial reaction too—mostly because the words Liz is using, like skydaddy, reek of condescension—but what she’s literally saying is that people are morons if they believe in a god that condemns people for their sexuality, and…I really can’t fault that logic. Again, condescending words like “skydaddy” imply that she thinks all religious folk are morons, which is unfair, but all she’s actually said is that homophobic religious folk are morons, which is…much more fair.
No, mostly what she’s doing is parroting insults that she’s heard other people use.
Oh no, she discovered Reddit…
It’s possible to believe god is just a jerk without being a moron.
I’m not sure you’re following the direction of Liz’s logic here, accompanied with that leftward glance. If there is no invisible sky daddy up there to get mad if they grind on the wrong crotches, there’s no reason those crotches couldn’t be hers and Joyce’s.
Or maybe I’m hearing something that isn’t there.
Pretty sure that’s hearing what isn’t there. This looks to me like attempts to be cooler than thou, with Liz’s side eye checking for Joyce’s reaction. As others note, the question is where all this will end – likely nowhere good.
I would point out that the way they’re positioned, that look wouldn’t be at Joyce, it’d be at Sarah.
Its the edgy atheist phase, sadly something a lot of us go through before we chill out.
Nope, not touching this one with a 10 foot pole.
See you guys tomorrow!
Agreed, I will fetch our 12-foot pole.
I don’t have a 12′ pole, but I do know a 6′ Hungarian.
Direct reference to a very recent Questionable Content strip?
Fairly safe assumption, probably some decent overlap in terms of readership
Considering Sarah’s foreshadowing before they went to see Joe, we might need a 37 1/2 foot pole.
Sarah: https://tenor.com/vyhg.gif
sarah’s default face
Liz has the exact same energy as 13-year old me discovering the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the first time.
The first time I discovered the Flying Spaghetti Monster it certainly gave me an energetic turn. But you get used to anything in time. Nowadays I hardly notice it at all.
Oh dear. What about Becky dear Joyce? She’s a lesbian who has embraced evolution and all things science, has a girlfriend, and is a practicing Christian! I am concerned at some point Joyce is going to invalidate Becky’s beliefs, albeit unintentionally, at some point with this type of talk.
(To be clear, just in case. This is not me trying to discredit Joyce and what she believes. I am glad she is taking a deep and introspective look at her current faith and the one she grew up with. I’m just afraid she’ll hurt Becky instead of being honest with her friend about her being an atheist now)
I think that’s exactly what’s about to happen. Becky’s going to walk in and find out just what Joyce and Liz have been talking about.
And it’s going to be emotionally devastating.
Think she’ll still have feelings for Joyce after that?
Of course it’s not clear Joyce actually believes this, rather than just playing up to Liz. She’s certainly lost her faith, but the whole “Christians are morons and I’m a brain genius” thing isn’t like Joyce at all.
…Yeah, even as an embittered ex-Christian turned atheist, what Liz is saying kinda worries me.
Like, it can be easy for me, when I’m being an idiot, to slip into that mentality of disdain, especially since I’ve got a lot of pain attached to my memories of being religious. And of some of the worse things I used to believe. But I’ve seen too many smart religious people, both good and bad, to ever buy into that line of thinking for too long.
Before the arc started with Liz showing up, one of the common guesses was that the title referred to Becky finding out the truth about Joyce losing her faith. I think that guess was right after all– any minute now, Becky will come through that door and hear this. The conversation is a ticking time bomb.
It is definitely easier for individuals, especially when religion has been harmful to them or they have become aware of how harmful some of its practices are, to then assume that anyone who does have faith is a moron. That they have mentally failed to unravel and see the truth that it is bad. Especially when you are a young adult and think you are just logically piecing everything together at last.
And there are some valid criticisms to be had of any religion, none will be perfect and without flaws which feeds into this view. Like I personally don’t think AA’s 12 steps should be so structured around Christianity and finding faith and I don’t think telling people they are powerless is a helpful thing to do ever.
But it is ultimately very unkind to then decide every religious person is stupid or to act as if they themselves are unable to see their own religion’s flaws and disagree with them while still having faith. You can have faith and acknowledge flaws exist.
Smart people can believe strange things because -nobody- is like a logic-wizard only thinking smart things from the moment of birth. Because that’s not the human experience. We have emotions, we have fears, we have things we like, things we don’t understand, and they’re not all identical for everyone. Mortality can be a lot to deal with. The unknown can be extremely discomforting.
Yeah intelligence is no guard against irrational beliefs.
Look at what happened to poor Linus Pauling, for instance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling#Medical_research_and_vitamin_C_advocacy
I wonder if Joyce is seeing the parallels here to Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge story?
(Especially with her comments in the 4th panel.)
Yes, but which one is Adam and which one is Eve? And which one is the Snake?
Joe is the snake. Because he’s got–
So you eat the fruit of the tree by jumping up and bonking it with your head?
I wonder how much of this is bluster, or if Liz is a Dawkins-style insufferable atheist.
What do you mean by “Dawkins-style”?
I heard he was banned from UC Berkeley for some reason, though I’m not quite clear on the details.
Is there something about him I’m missing?
My understanding is he’s where the “anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as I do is an idiot” camp of atheism originated from
Interesting.
Do you think Richard Dawkins himself intended for that, or are those types of atheists merely appropriating his name as a front for their disparate causes?
I was thinking it was more a case of people who were offended and disagreed with him appropriating his name for use on other disparate people they also disagree with.
While not remotely an atheist, I also belong to the anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as I do is an idiot school. But that is mostly because I believe that people in general, including myself, are idiots. I think the evidence is pretty incontrovertible.
I don’t blame ’em. We’re all just piles of lipids, proteins, starches and nuclei.
I guess there’s only so much that the product of billions of years worth of happy accidents could do right.
Pretty much. He’s also got a nasty islamophobic streak, and no, that’s not just that he disaproves of all religions and Islam is one, although he tries to sell it as that.
I was blown away by The Blind Watchmaker when I was a kid, so this is distressing to see.
Just what specifically points to him being Islamophobic?
There was his Dear Muslima piece, where he portrays Muslim women as all being beaten, banned from driving and having fgm inflicted on them (and all in the service of telling American women (who are assumed to not be Muslim) to stop complaining about sexual harassment).
Which has the nice bonus of also being misogynistic. He’s also had some unfortunate comments about trans people.
Pretty much a reflection of how “New Atheism” fed into the anti-SJW, alt-right movement.
I’ve never heard this. Could you show me your source?
It’s been around, but here’s one take on it.
I know that this is a long video (20 min), but I think it is really relevant to what’s happening here with Dawkins and the American Humanist Association, especially the parts pertaining to honest attempts at discussion and bogus claims of motif.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o6-Htscvf4k
Not that everyone would take the time to watch the whole thing, but if you did, would still you agree with the AHA’s decision to dishonor Dawkins? Why or why not?
On the flip side western pseudo-progressives in America have seemingly utterly *abandoned* and *betrayed* the concept of promoting human, feminist or LGBT rights in the islamic world, because they don’t want to sound like islamophobic Republicans who bash muslims.
In the service of “not sounding like Republicans”, the pseudo-progressives in the United States have ended up effectively supporting the mass OPPRESSION and MURDER of atheists, women and/or sexual/romatnic minorities all over the Islamic world.
Frankly that’s a right wing talking point. The Right Wing allies strongly with authoritarian repressive regimes and attempts to portray every Muslim nation as Saudi Arabia, ignoring they compromise a third of the Earth.
Yeah, definitely a right wing talking point. It also ignores the repressive Christian nations – often backed by US missionaries. It’s particularly great fun when you see near fascists pretending they’re really LGBTQ allies because they want to kill Muslims who are the real enemies.
Promoting human rights in other countries is not an easy task for any group and it often founders on realpolitik concerns. Starting off by condemning an entire religion usually isn’t an effective approach though.
You kinda just proved my point. You don’t actually want to talk about religious oppression of minorities in dozens of countries around the world, because it’s a supposed “right-wing talking point”. You guys seemingly try to silence condemnation of such criticism of religious oppression by CALLING it a “right-wing talking point”.
Well, fuck those “us missionaries” who back repressive Christian nations (I live in a Christian nation whose state-backed church back and are backed by every fascist piece of neonazi scum, so my own loathing is primarily directed towards Christianity), but the pseudo-progressive unite states democrats don’t seem to ever allow criticism of Islam. Because that might make them sound like Republicans.
Condemning an entire religion? Oh, noes, let’s not condemn an institutionh of horrific oppression of hundreds of millions of people. It might make us sound “right-wing” after all. /s
Well, my point of view is that unless unless supposed progressives start condemning religion (preferably all religions, but *at the very least* the homophobic and misogynist religions like the vast majority of Judaism, Christianity and yeah Islam) as an oppressive institution and a lie, their supposed progressiveness is a very very bogus lie.
The “right wing talking point” is that liberals are soft on Islam, not whatever it is you’re claiming.
The problem with condemning Islam in the current American climate is that it leads directly to hate crimes against Muslims at home and indirectly to military atrocities overseas. Neither of which helps the victims of religious oppression.
“Grind on the wrong crotch”… she’s definitely making inroads, isn’t she?
Or trying to. But I think it’s largely going over Joyce’s head.
What’s Joyce’s phobia with oatmeal about? She worried she’ll discover she has an allergy?
Not at all. She’ll simply die because she touched oatmeal. It has to do with the order of things, not allergies.
It can’t decide if it is a food of discreet items, like peas, or a food of uniform continuous texture, like cheese.
I think it’s just another one of the Joyce food neuroses
Yes, but her food neuroses follow a pattern. I think Slartibeast has the right of it.
She can’t be 100% sure she won’t die. That’s just science.
In fact she can be 100% sure she will die eventually. That’s just Science.
Entropy always wins in the end.
DAMN YOU OATMEAL!
After all, the poison is in the dose.
I wonder what Joe thinks of this little exchange
Oatmeal. Peas in a pod. I think eggs.
If she were to watch Food Wars it would be the actual food that would traumatize her more than anything.
Joyce should never watch sausage being made. Or probably any kind of food.
This is going to be … interesting when Becky finds them.
Liz is bi, then ?
That’s what I’m hearing. But I’m not 100% sure.
I mean, we’re kinda going ahead of ourselves saying that just because she makes a one-line about same sex stuff, but comic hints and all that
I was just thinking the crotch-rubbing was about promiscuity, not about sexual preference, but … maybe? Time will tell.
I mean she could also just find it absurd.
Wow, Joyce. I knew you had a bunch of rough phobias, but that one seems particularly grueling.
Take you damn Internet and go to your room.
I didn’t realize the pun at first. This one makes me happy.
You just had to go there
If it’s plain oatmeal I get why Joyce is scared. It’s the blandest abyss.
You stare into the abyss and the oatmeal stares back?
Stare into the abyss and soggies will rule.
Maple brown sugar oatmeal is pretty good, but I’m still on the fence about apple cinnamon.
Yeah, apple cinnamon confounds me too. I just stick to cinnamon, berries, and peanut butter.
T.I.: (As Dave) Well, what are we supposed to have for breakfast?
PENA: (As Luis) The oatmeal packets.
T.I.: (As Dave) Oatmeal packets.
DASTMALCHIAN: (As Kurt) It’s insult.
PENA: (As Luis) Why is it an insult?
DASTMALCHIAN: (As Kurt) Because it tastes like sand.
PENA: (As Luis) Put some cinnamon, put a little honey and whatever you want…
So everyone who believes is a moron, but in order to stop believing you need to be a brain genius? I am really not liking this attitude.
If its no “atheists are geniuses” then the logical alternative is “everyone with more than 2 brain cells is an atheist”.
Not sure which is more annoying.
Joyce is working on a really small sample of atheism. The religion sample though…
Very true.
Congratulations! You just discovered why annoying atheists were probably also annoying Christians, first, for the exact same reasons!
It’s almost like religion as an abstract concept has nothing to do with all of the issues that people like to blame it for, when those things are actually human issues more broadly and don’t go away just because there’s no longer an appeal to supernatural forces to explain why things happen or how people should act.
True, but even given that, religion is a very powerful tool for manipulating people. Those issues don’t go away, but it’s a lot harder to weaponize them.
Its the edgy atheist phase. Sadly a good portion of us go through it.
Its a combination of factors including frustration at ourselves for believing in it for so long when it seems obviously wrong now. Most grow out of it and its certainly not okay.
So, to Joyce, oatmeal is like a wiener.
I was getting ready to like Liz, but now I am not so sure…
Ah, Joyce is now realizing the same thing I did a year before college: smug atheists are just as annoying as smug religious folk.
Or, to put it more philosophically: “If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
Particularly if your name is Mario.
Avoidance of smugness is certainly a consequence of what Zen Buddhists are trying to get practitioners to understand with that phrase, but it’s definitely not the point of that phrase,and I don’t think it makes sense to use it the way you’re using it there.
I won’t say that I truly understand that saying, but …
Throws Gunning for the Buddha on the hacked Muzak.
Sarah really watches every step Joyce takes. I love her♡. I wonder how Dorothy will react to the discovery that Joyce is an atheist now and if Becky will think is all her fault and will begin to hate Dorothy for real.
Based on some of the phrasing Joyce is using, I’m expecting Becky to walk in on Joyce trash-talking believers and Becky being hurt.
That’s what I’m fully expecting to happen too. Becky will walk in on Liz saying something about how Christians are basically “mentally deficient bigots who should all go hang” and Joyce will blindly agree, desperate not to tarnish her new atheist friendship, and then cut to Becky with a :O expression in the doorway.
After seeing tomorrow’s strip: “CALLED IT!” XD
to be fair, oatmeal looks like freaking cardboard, I wouldn’t eat it either
It’s a shame it looks, and tastes, the way it does because it’s great for breakfast but you do need to add things to it
Add real maple syrup and brown sugar.
Once you figure out how thick you like it, oatmeal’s great.
Avoid instant oatmeal; make the regular and use it as a platform for all kinds of stuff. I usually add peaches, blueberries, cranberries and walnuts.
I thought oatmeal was terrible until I started working from home and making it on the stove instead of eating microwaved instant grossness.
Steel cut oats with brown sugar and generally some kind of fruit/berry.
Takes a while, but most of it’s just sitting on the stove simmering.
So what you are saying, in effect, is that oatmeal on its own sucks unless you doctor it up with added flavors, textures, and other goodies.
If it weren’t for corporate work and the cultural appropriation of Quakers, we wouldn’t even be eating it the way we do.
Before the early 1900s, oatmeal was seen as animal food that was unfit for human consumption.
something something phony god’s blessing, something something euphoric
DoA Book 12: I’m Not Scared of Oatmeal
Pro tip: Anyone who calls themselves a “brain genius” probably isn’t.
and here’s where Joyce realises there’s all different kinds of atheism. And the most prominent kind ain’t always the one.
Liz is starting to come off to me as one of those a-hole atheists who look down on and judge someone for having belief in something. Like the a-hole religious people, just other end of the spectrum.
So, a college student?
…Actually, yeah.
Joyce has a yeerk in her, huh?
Turns out Joyce is Visser Three in disguise
Yea if it was a Yeerk in her head they would be better at passing for Joyce.
Not if they ate the oatmeal though. 😀
More Oatmeal.
Same energy as Dawkins calling atheists ‘brights’
Just as Achilles had his heel,
As Baldur had mistletoe,
As Dracula had holy water,
Joyce has oatmeal
… Liz is just as insecure about her atheistic “conversion” as Joyce is, isn’t she?
Because this sounds exactly like so many “newfound atheists” I’ve known, who feel driven to hate on what they used to love as hard as they can to show how ‘over it’ they are, because they really aren’t sure if they are over it at all, but they really, really feel like they should be.
Give it a few years, and they’ll realize that, if it actually isn’t real, they won’t need to spend all their waking hours obsessing about how “not real” it is.
It’s particularly common for people coming out of especially toxic religions (like Joyce’s).
There’s a few causes of it, but that’s certainly one. Another I found is frustration at having believe in it for so long when it seems so obviously wrong to them now.
Joyce & Liz’s problem is they think that passing out the very low bar of not believing in the invisible boogeyman (basically figuring out that Santa Claus doesn’t exist) actually makes them smart.
That’s a very VERY low bar. Lots of idiots succeed in passing it. And since (in Western countries) atheists usually no longer get killed for being atheists, it doesn’t require *that* much bravery or integrity either. (though of course it depends on personal circumstances, like family etc)
Actually, I’d argue that Liz is just being a bigot and ignoring a lot of very smart people believe in God. You may believe that is stupid but she’s insulting some of Joyce’s friends.
Then Joyce agrees out of peer pressure, and they spiral down a “people who believe are all chumps” tangent together.
Because that can’t end badly at all!
Joyce overcoming her brainwashing and being willing to learn more about the world is both brave and intelligent, in my book.
yeah, this was basically how I talked in college, though I had become an atheist all the way back in middle school so I was basically ahead of all the talking points with my college friends.
It now occurs to me that perhaps Joyce’s oatmeal thing is related to the “mess of pottage” that Jacob paid Esau for his birthright in Genesis 25:29–34.
no oatmeal is just gross
Heresy and Libel! Oatmeal is a delightful and delicious hot cereal, definitely top-tier breakfast food.
Not quite as good as Malt-O-Meal, but definitely right up there close to it.
The rational person knows they are not entirely rational.
Oh yes, the amount of people who try to claim they’re rational because they ignore emotions is frustrating.
As long as Joyce doesn’t touch oatmeal she has nothing to be afraid of
Anyone else get the idea that Liz has a thing for Joyce and thats why she said the thing about humping anyone you want?