fight on, but as i understand it we’ve been trying to stamp out “irregardless” for like a hundred years, it’s a linguistic cockroach that won’t quite die
Even if you look at “Strunk & White”, which is regarded as being too rigid and strict with it’s rules on word usage, it says “Years
ago, students were warned not to end a sentence with a preposition; time, of course, has softened that rigid decree. Not only is the preposition acceptable at the end, sometimes it is more effective in that spot than anywhere else.”
As the only fully evolved first world language, English doesn’t have rules. It has guidelines. And any attempt to make guidelines for it will leave said guidlines broken, defeated,… and ded.
Like all the best elements of the “first world”, English claims to be fundamentally superior to all its peers thanks to all the clever ideas it has shamelessly stolen from others.
a great quote i read from some linguist: “English doesn’t borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark allies,
knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”
I don’t think he will. If he went back to her, he’d always be wondering if he was holding her back, because she established that dynamic early on. Plus, Lucy has never made him feel unstable in their relationship, even if he isn’t yet ready to say he loves her back because it’s too soon. Dorothy changed up their dynamic multiple times on him.
It wouldn’t be fine because he doesn’t want this. He’s got a girlfriend, he’s putting in effort to make it work, and he’s very plainly uninterested in leaving her to get back together with Dorothy. Maybe that will change later, but right now? Dorothy needs to stop.
all we’ve seen seems to indicate he enjoys her company as a friend. Basically he liked how they spent time together before Dorothy pushed them together
but now he is going to double down on wanting to love Lucy and it’s going to backfire
Yeah. Walky’s phrasing here gives me cause for concern.
While the rejection of Dorothy is clear, his reasoning isn’t ‘I like Lucy’ but rather “you said I was a good boyfriend and I’m lucy’s boyfriend” as if this is a logic puzzle.
Like, I don’t feel like he’s taking responsibility for his decision. He’s somehow putting it on Dorothy as though she dubbed him ‘good boyfriend’ and now he must live up to that responsibility or something. It’s weird.
I more interpreted this as “I’m doing a thing you won’t like, but hey, I have integrity. You like that I have integrity, it’s a good thing to have. What are you even doing, asking me to break my integrity?”
You’ll notice that Dorothy never actually asked Walky to leave Lucy in as many words. I think if she’d thought she had a shot she would have been more direct. She believed in Walky too much I think.
He’s in his late teens. “Because I must be a good boyfriend” is already way more thoughtful and considerate than most kids can do at that age. What would you have preferred? A torrid love declaration? That sort of purely emotional response is the one that can waver from one day to the next and which will be impotent in the face of the temptation to cheat.
Say what? I once was a teenager with a girlfriend, and back then, like now, nothing you could say or do could convince me to cheat or otherwise knowingly break the heart of a romantic partner.
Not so much “must be a good boyfriend” as “mustn’t be a piece of human garbage”, maybe, but evaluates to pretty much the same thing. Also very easy to motivate – if I would not want to be treated like that, then it’s pretty obvious I shouldn’t treat someone else like that.
These are all things you ought to have mostly figured out by the time you leave tweenage and enter your teenage, though I am aware that there are some people who reach both adulthood and senility without doing so.
that sounds amazing. I wish everyone would be that mature as a young adult! however, unfortunately, that isn’t obvious to most people.
And most of all: we tend to act to our best knowledge and ability we have *at that point*. Looking back at my teens, AND at my 20s, i do have a lot of cringe moments. I know that back then, i did think i was doing the right thing to be a good partner.
But good intentions don’t always lead to good relationship dynamics.
*shrug* Good on you? I hope that you got a medal, or at least got to look down on most other, hormone-driven, teenage-minded kids and feel really good about yourself.
Before you retort that maybe it’s just that I myself was a “human garbage” and that’s why I think other kids are, allow me to explain that my perspective comes from being a secondary teacher and interacting with teenagers on a daily basis. What you call “being human garbage” I call “being a stupid but non-malicious kid who doesn’t have a fucking idea of how to navigate the feelings they are suddenly experiencing and whose mind is addled both by hormones and poor role models in mass media, or perhaps at home”.
I feel like it’s more like “My answer should be obvious to you. You observed what kind of boyfriend I am, and it is not the kind who breaks up with my girlfriend I’m happy with because a ‘better’ offer comes along. You already know this about me. You had your answer before you even approached me, let alone the 5 times in this conversation already.”
You are treating as if being faithful isn’t an important thing and as if the most important thing is how much the other person gets you hot and bothered. Why in the world do you think that “I like Lucy” is a more important thing here than “I am faithful to Lucy”?
I took it more like he felt Dorothy should have known what he’d do – not as him trying to measure up and/or placing the onus of what that means on Dorothy.
Like – You already recognized my good behavior, why are you expecting less of me?
(I want to clarify I’m not saying I’m right- just offering how I took it in the interest of talking about it.)
we don’t know how long it’ll last but it’s nice that it wasn’t an excuse or so or he doesn’t subconsciously look for a reason/excuse to end things with lucy even if he’s concerned about going further with lucy
though not sure if he’ll completely tell lucy about this convo with dorothy tho
She’ll find out when they have their talk about the L-word. “Maybe you should go back to Dorothy!” “Dorothy told me she wants me back. I told her no.” “[small voice] what???” And then real conversation begins.
I think it’s more a confidence thing than a wisdom thing. He can say ANYTHING here, no matter how profound, and his goofball status will remain intact.
“So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it…
IMO, she wanted to be Picard. Particularly the parts where you get to make great speeches, and the universe always gives you a third option where everyone wins so you never have to compromise your principles.
I don’t like the whole “they had a point” justification. Maybe Dorothy would’ve gotten here on her own, maybe she would’ve figured something else out. We’ll never know now cause Raidah had a takedown ready.
The truth doesn’t change just because the person saying it is an asshole. Fact is Dorothy’s personality is not a good fit for politics, and that’s not going to go away now that she knows it.
My argument is we don’t know that. It seems everyone is framing this in absolutes including Raidah herself. She frames it as Presidents are war criminals thus Dorothy’s dream of being president was a bad one, but it’s impossible to know where that dream would lead. Maybe Dorothy wouldn’t have reached the Oval Office, but would still be a politician, not all of them are evil…maybe. Or maybe it would’ve transformed into something else during the process. The point isn’t about being right. It’s that you shouldn’t break people down.
Dorothy was on the journey already though? She even says it here. What does Raidah’s unprompted takedown on her do? Even Walky admits it was bullshit. I don’t think Raidah’s point is meant to be valid discredit of her dream as much as it was hurt Dorothy and bring her to an emotional low. Point being Walky, who we all agree is a real friend still unquestioningly supports Dorothy’s dream because of her as a person and not his flawed belief of what a president is.
Walky’s belief in her ambition is endearing and sweet but it doesn’t mean that ambition was good or achievable.
Dorothy was clinging to a childish fantasy about what she wanted from her life, it’s not a bad thing that she’s being forced to re-examine what that actually means and if it’s something she actually wants.
Raidah is not wrong about what becoming President would require, the sort of person you’d have to become. You can’t just get the right person into the oval office and fix everything, that’s not how it works. Good people don’t get to become commander-in-chief of the biggest army in the history of the world.
Nitpick, but ‘biggest army’ is wrong. China currently has a bigger army and a bigger military in general, the Soviet Union very likely had a larger military, and so on.
‘Most powerful military’ might be accurate. Everything else you said is pretty accurate though.
It is childish in how simplistic it is, ignoring the complexity of situations and how people might not have all the information while having to make a quick decision (and looking at things in hindsight is always going to look different). There can also be a difference between something being morally horrible but still possibly the best option at the time. During WW2, people of Asian descent were removed from their homes and put into camps in the US, which while horrible, was popular at the time if I recall right. People blamed them for the attack on Pearl Harbor and worried that they might be spies or betray the country. It might have been needless worries, but there was a chance that it wasn’t, and all it takes is a chance for people to take matters into their own hands and start a riot or targeted attacks (just look at the racial attacks due to the covid pandemic). Rather than the government try to watch over everyone, while trying to keep the populace calm, and with a war (restrictions on items, and a draft), the simplest and easiest solution was to separate the groups. It is worth noting that there were people that were enemy sympathizers that could “blend in” to the white general population (no obvious physical identifying characteristics). People tend to like having physical identifiers to sort people into groups (note people wearing similar clothing to show solidarity or be a part of a group). That just makes it easier to see it as an “us vs them” even if that isn’t the case.
In any case, it is easy to look back at a situation (especially far removed from the emotions of the time period) and say that you would have done it differently. There is no guarantee that the “better” solution you would have picked would have ended better and not been considered poorly in the future. Talk is cheap, but actual decisions and actions have consequences reaching far beyond what you would have ever expected.
A statement being simple does not mean it is incorrect.
Likewise you can write a lot of words and still come up with an argument that is neither useful nor true, which you have helpfully provided an example of
I was responding to “presidents are war criminals” being considered childish. In a general sense, yes there are a lot of war criminals who are presidents. I also think that you would be hard put to not find a side that hasn’t done a war crime in a war. I don’t exactly know what you don’t find useful or true in my comment, since you are so vague, generalized, and lacking any support to make your point other than what is your own personal opinion about my comment, which you are fully entitled to have. I do tend to prefer criticism that is actually helpful, since I find friendly debate can help people reform their ideas and understand concepts and other people’s points of view better. So if you ever want to elaborate more, I would appreciate it. Maybe it is because I am on the spectrum, but there is nothing more confusing to me than someone telling me that my thoughts are not relevant to the conversation without explaining why.
Maybe it would in a dictatorship, but in anything with a bit of democracy where you have to work with other people there will always be compromises and limitations. Even if you have a large majority of the public agreed on something, it is still hard to pass (how you word it, making sure that there are no loopholes, etc). That is the problem of living in a society that respects others opinions, but it also can help protect from having one bad person in charge that ruins everything.
@thejeff I don’t think Kimi’s point was that dictatorships could be good, or better, they were pointing out that compromise is the major pitfall of democracy. Every governmental structure has flaws that make corruption possible or even likely, acknowledging that a dictatorship doesn’t have the same flaws as democracy is decidedly not the same thing as claiming dictatorship is without flaw. The dream of a benevolent dictator is an attractive one, and even an achievable one, but the issue is that sooner or later the benevolent dictator will die or retire or be usurped and eventually you will wind up with a horrifically corrupt dictator who makes life awful for the citizens they rule, so dictatorship is not a great model for a long term government structure.
Democracy needs to somehow balance reflecting the will of the people in the laws with rule of law for the good of the people. There are ways to limit the extent corruption can reach in a democratic republic, things like term limits and restricting campaign donations so they are harder to turn into legal bribes would go a long way toward dealing with the corruption in the current version of the US legislature, but it isn’t possible to totally eliminate corruption or make it immune to being corrupted in the future. Awareness of the weaknesses and flaws in your model makes easier to cover for those weaknesses and flaws and mitigate their effects, compromise is one of the major flaws of democracy, better than the flaws of other models IMO, but still a major flaw nonetheless and acknowledging that in discussions of governmental structure is a good thing.
I don’t think it was the intent either, but it’s the inevitable result of the logic.
Just thinking that compromise is bad and government should be one person’s pure vision is creepy and dangerous as hell. As is the idea that a benevolent dictator is somehow more achievable than benevolent democracy.
@thejeff Psychie didn’t say that a benevolent dictator was *more* achievable than benevolent democracy, nor did they say that compromise is bad, anymore than Kimi said dictatorships could be good or better than democracy. None of the bad-faith or questionable arguments that you’re describing are actually being made.
You seem to be developing a pattern in this discussion of putting words in people’s mouths and attacking that instead of addressing the points they’re actually making. I don’t know if you’re doing that on purpose or not, but if not then I’d like to request that you stop. It’s immensely irritating and off-putting.
I am in absolutely no form condoning dictatorships. I am just referencing a common tactic they (and monarchies) use to defend their existence, which can be enticing to people in times of conflict and discord. The pitfalls tend to happen when people expect democracies to have quick solutions when their nature of compromise means that is not likely to happen, which results in frustration and people looking for other solutions. I find that the majority of people tend to regret switching to a dictatorship in order to expedite their views rather than waiting for compromise and democracy to slowly push through. It never ends the way they want and always turns bad sooner rather than later. It is important to acknowledge that the process is frustrating but that the option to burn it all down and put one person you consider “good” in charge is a very, very bad option. To put it s bit into engineering terms, a healthy democracy should have many failsafe built into it, with the multiple people involved providing redundancies so that if one person is bad, they can be canceled out by another who is good. This makes each individual person’s morality less of a breaking point in the whole system (provided the fail safes and the like work optimally). A dictatorship relies on the morality of just one person, and only that person all the time. That is a huge weak point. What it makes up in speed, it loses in the reliability of the very thing you want it to do. That being said, you can see situations where one person is put in charge in cases where speed is a necessity (emergency situations, sometimes war decisions, etc.). Normally the thought process there is that quick action will be taken (normally to save lives) according to previously set rules that will then be reviewed later after the emergency situation is over. You cannot have a democratic leadership in a situation like evacuating a town almost surrounded by a forest fire. You need the speed and clarity of decision making that one person in charge gives in order to orderly and rapidly evacuate the town safely. If every single problem needing to be solved by the government requires the speed of running from a forest fire at your doorstep, I think that you have major problems, and possibly a volcano in your backyard.
Raidah had an excellent point. What Dorothy actually admitted was bullshit were her immediate justifications. Because at the end of the day, doing the job requires doing things current Dorothy does not want to do. She does not want to become the person who can do those things, and she knows the system will not allow in someone who refuses to continue America as a genocidal invasion state.
Whether Raidah is right or wrong is basically immaterial here. If one person saying something you don’t like is enough to stop you in your tracks and disrupt your sense of mission, then no you were never going to be the president.
She’d already decided not to go to Yale before Raidah said anything. It’s been hanging over her all semester.
Walky’s asking if that was it. That’s the only reason Raidah comes up today.
I legitimately didn’t want to start a thread like this. I just liked that Walky agreed that Raidah’s take was dumb. I didn’t realize people were so passionate about Raidah’s opinions.
True. Her stated reasoning for not going to Yale at the time did not strengthen the case that very high level politics is in her future. People like that take every possible advantage to advance, they don’t stop because of (kinda abstract) moral caveats. If her conviction is truly that she has something to offer through service, the particular reason she personally goes to Yale shouldn’t be an impediment.
That said… My speculation is that the real reason she won’t go to Yale is because she won’t abandon Joyce.
Dorothy was already well on her journey of self-doubt, Raidah’s comments were just the last straw. Hearing them so bluntly from another person was just confirmation of what she already felt.
Sure. I was mostly using her challenge as an example. The USA has had a good number of presidents with different attitudes, personality traits. Self doubt is rarely one of them (for good and for ill) Loads of other flaws, they didn’t get to the top by being perfect, that’s for sure.
I’d argue that Raidah knows what she said is BS since if she thought becoming part of a systems makes you responsible for all that systems crimes and that is a bad thing, then she wouldn’t be trying to become a lawyer.
I honestly can’t see Lucy being legitimately on-board with polyamory given her current views on religion, life, love, and romance. I *could* see her being convinced to try it to “keep” Walky if she thought the alternative was losing him, but that’s a very bad reason to try polyamory.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with polyamory, can see why it works for a lot of people, and am on board with people doing it if it makes them happy. I also acknowledge that I don’t want it in my life, I have no interest in being with multiple romantic partners at once, and I don’t think I could handle my partner also being with other guys if I’m not gonna be with other girls. Is that selfish? Yes, but that’s still an honest summary of how I would react to being in that situation.
I wasn’t sure what dorothy expected tbh
as much as lucy and him don’t have the easy chemistry he and dorothy did, there’s a big difference between doing something about realising that and just going back to your ex because they’re sad about missing you
could easily go the other way tomorrow though depending on how dorothy plays this
What was she even thinking? She wasn’t for once, haha. Too bad she went there — all she needed was a heart-to-heart with someone. Walky got advice from her. She can get advice from Walky, that’s fair. She should have had more respect for Walky than to say out loud that dating Lucy is a bad situation. I agree! But her saying it will just glue Walky to Lucy.
The bad situation isn’t “You’re dating Lucy”, it’s “You’re dating Lucy, we broke up for stupid reasons and I want you back”. I feel like Dorothy is covertly asking forgiveness for how selfish she’s been regarding Walky all along- their interactions(?) have always been for her own convenience (“it’s for fun” “no it’s serious” “I don’t have time for a boyfriend now” “If you’re dating I’m less tempted to get back with yoy”) And that’s not the kind of person she found out she wants to be.
The bad situation is her wanting him to break up with Lucy so they can fuck.
I don’t get how this is hard for people. She wanted him to drop Lucy because she wants him back, and she knows it’s a shitty thing for him to do, but she wants him to do it for her.
Walky, being not an asshole, tells her the ship has sailed. the mental gymnastics some of the people in here are doing makes my brain hurt.
Like, what did anyone expect when she brought up a small, selfish act? A big, non-selfish one? She’s basically asking a question she probably knew the answer to, almost as an excuse to get some of her feelings out in the open. Really not that big a deal, in the long run.
Sometimes you just need to voice your feelings to the relevant person even if you don’t expect anything to come of it, if nothing else just so you can have a resolution for said feelings and move on. I’ve found, for example, if I have a crush that’s distracting me, asking her out even when I know what her answer’s gonna be allows me to get over it and move on, best case scenario she says yes and we can give it a shot, worst case scenario she says no and I can move on, but if I do nothing I fixate and that’s not healthy.
Even if Dorothy knows Walky won’t leave Lucy to be with her, heck even if she knows Walky won’t take her back even if he were single (something I’m not sure is true, here), she still needed to make her feelings known so she can start dealing with them in a healthy manner. Admitting you want something and getting confirmation that you can’t have it allows you to deal with it and move forward.
Good for Walky. Dorothy’s spiral down is gonna get much worse, but Walky’s in a relationship, a currently stable one compared to his previous ones (which atleast ended nicely-ish?).
So long as she respects Walky’s speed, its all good really. She can be excited about having a BF and wanting to do things, AND respect his slower pace. They haven’t hit a “this is me putting the brakes on” place yet though.
And its not like the bulk of the relationships haven’t been GQD TASbot grade either.
Yeah, the biggest issue isn’t Lucy’s pacing, it’s that Walky hasn’t communicated that they aren’t on the same page. She can’t respect his boundaries if he won’t tell her what they are.
“I care about you, but my last two relationships we jumped into sex too early (I’m pretty sure amber and him did a sex, but people have put the doubt in my mind, but it still works) and it screwed things up. I don’t want to screw things up by screwing you too soon.”
but then its walky… the dirt pile can only help so much.
Wait, would that be even partially true, though? I don’t think I’ve gotten even a whiff that anybody involved in either relationship regrets the physical intimacy or when it happened. It seems like both were primarily torpedoed by coping badly with external social/emotional stressors (ambition, mental illness, surprise sister-stabbing connections…)
I think it would be way worse both ethically and practically for Walky to misrepresent which aspect of the relationship he’s hesitant about. The way I read recent events is that if he’s hesitant to have sex with Lucy it’s *because* he doesn’t yet love her and knows she considers that a prerequisite, rather than having a complicated relationship with sex himself.
Yeah, she’s just eager and hopped up on friends to lovers fanfic. Honestly i think if walker were able to just have a conversation with her about it most of their problems would be solved
I think Walky’s previous relationships ended well-ish because of Walky and who he chooses relationships with, Lucy excepted. I really believe that Lucy will turn into if they break up.
There is some problems down the road with Lucy but at least Walky is committed to solving those problems eventually.
By problems I mean Lucy thinks Walky said I love you and they have been dating for less then a month, that needs to be resolved. Also Lucy possibly wants to be friends with Radiahs group and that’s something that needs to be solved.
Oh poor Dorothy. I’ve been the Walky in this situation and it sucks, but she looks so very crushed. I’m still not the biggest fan of Walky and Lucy (they have all the chemistry of flour and slightly more glutinous flour imo, I need more cute scenes from them), but I’m very glad that he’s staying loyal to her and sticking this hard boundary. I’m not even upset at him being so firm with it, Dorothy pressed the issue after he tried to delicately redirect the conversation and shut it down before it got here.
Only thing is, now I’m not sure where Dorothy’s gonna go from here and I’m lowkey worried about her.
I think recognizing the lack of chemistry between them is what’s leading Dorothy to be so cavalier in this situation; Dorothy and Walky are similar levels of iconoclastic subcultural weirdo, make a ton of sense together, have proven to be a good couple (and have proven to have mind-blowing sex) whereas Lucy is… sort of an ascended normie who has a crush on the cool kid, which he reciprocates cuz “why not” – it’s not a very nice thing to do to her, really, not when she’s so much more into him than he is into her. But, contra nonbinary sociopath Booster’s advice, *Walky* can do way better than *Lucy* and it’s only natural for Dorothy to pick up on that.
I did doubt him for a second when it sounded like he was on the “you’re destined to be president and I would make you fail” bit, but I doubted him even more in the other direction (today’s reaction but a angry). I’m glad he’s mature Walky who provided an opportunity for face-saving, but was clear when it was needed, without salt in the wound. (even if that anger is be justified)
I’m completely ambivalent about both Dorothy and Lucy.
The only Walky-including ship I have ever cared about, including in previous universes, is Garbageskowl. Unless that one gets repaired and out of drydock, I don’t really care who Walky dates.
Garbage roof was the only Walky ship that has equal footing for both partners, so I’ll forever prefer it to anything else he’s going to attach his mast too.
I don’t even hate Lucy but there’s some clear issues with I almost want to say hero worship going on there. She’s still a better GF then Dotty was.
IF they get back together, Dorothy’s liable to drop Walky like a hot potato if she sees him as an anchor holding her back from whatever her next ambition happens to be. She did it to him once, and did it to Danny previously.
I love you Dorothy, I do, but Walky was never going to wait around forever for you to decide that you actually did love him after all. It wouldn’t be fair to him. Even though he has some troubles Lucy (namely the saying I love you and the sexual stuff) regardless I do think he cares about her and enjoys his time with her. He doesn’t put her on a pedestal, compared to his relationship with Dorothy.
This is a very painful lesson for Dorothy to learn, but it is needed. Plus, she’s falling back into extremes like Ruth pointed out. She either goes all in on school and breaks up with her boyfriend, or she gives up on everything and puts all her hopes on her ex-boyfriend. Poor girl needs to learn to just… exist. She’s not going to become President tomorrow, she has time. Time to experiment, time to fall in love, time to actually enjoy her life while she has it.
No, I think she just needs to get laid by someone nice, and nobody of her preferred gender to get laid by is nicer in this universe than Walky. And that’s an unfortunate fact.
I read that conversation as less “You’re not who I want,” and more “Sucks that we both spiked this because I do want you, but I don’t trust you anymore.”
First off I wouldn’t call Lucy a “Bad shifty situation” it’s complicated and lately I’m more worried about her blowing this more than Walky now. But Lucy is a decent person and even though I don’t know this one will last she atleast deserves to atleast not have her first relationship with her first boyfriend end on sour note this.
Sexonde Dorothy wouldn’t have gotten with Walky if he wasn’t the type of guy she said he was the whole time. She made his bed now she hast to lie in it.
Yeah, if Dorothy’s spiraling now, being around a whole bunch of other people who are used to being the smartest person in the room and/or take the Raidah approach to networking is probably not going to help with that. Also, Yale’s currently facing a lawsuit over how they’ve handled mental health issues, so…
Nah. I was one of 20 grad students selected for a graduate program at UT Austin back in the early 90s. Of the 20, I was horrified to learn that I was the only one accepted from a small state university. I was coming from Idaho State U. All of us had been top of our class, but Summa Cum Laude with a 4.0 GPA at ISU in a crowd of Summas from Princeton, Harvard, and U Chicago was pretty much the definition of “big fish in a small pond dumped in Lake Superior.” I managed. Sure, I had a hefty dose of imposter syndrome but so did everyone in my class. Once I realized that everyone else was as worried as me, I settled in just fine. Do I think Dorothy’s anxiety will just go away if she ignores it? Of course not. She should get counseling, ASAP. But should she make such a wasteful decision based on her anxiety? Hell no.
No, don’t you know it only counts if she expressly throws herself at him? At least, that’s what I was told yesterday by someone saying it was ridiculous that we were all reading “I want you to drop Lucy and take me back” into Dorothy in this arc.
Well, looks like it was “part of the commentariat” AND “Walky” reading that into if.
(I should note that I would not be surprised if Dorothy, tomorrow, asserts she WASN’T trying to get back with him, why would you assume that, etc. I’m almost coming around to the idea that she’s more “working through shit by talking at Walky and getting in over her head” than “seriously trying to get him back”, myself.)
“I miss you. It was a mistake to let you go. I’m sorry about the shitty position I’m putting you in now (asking you to choose between your current partner and me, your ex who has played hot and cold).”
Does anyone else think Dorothy looks…annoyed in that last panel? I’m worried she’s about to push harder or get angry/mean with Walky.
Anyway, this was inevitable in some form or another, I’m disappointed Dorothy went this route. I really do NOT need to see Dorothy shattered into a million pieces, thanks very much, but I’m worried that the comic already had all its fun dragging Joyce through a mile of shit and now wants to do the same thing with Dorothy.
Yeah yeah, “it ain’t called Smarting of Age” blah blah blah, but even when characters made bad choices in the past it felt a little less…jarring, I guess. Now it’s just starting to feel constantly contrived for maximum pathos.
Yeah, the cringe will be painful for everyone including us! Plus, for Dorothy to act purely on emotion then get humiliated would be a final blow to her self-esteem and sanity right now. Who does she have to talk to and lean on here?
Now I’m having flashbacks to my first-ever ex (who I stayed friends with for years afterward) and how he encouraged me to get with the person who’s now my wife of several years, but then a couple years later he confesses that he wanted us to get back together, as if he’d totally forgotten he helped give me the nerve to pursue my current relationship in the first place. (I basically had to do what Walky’s doing here.*)
*Sadly, this did make stuff awkward between us, and then we drifted apart and then my ex died in a freak accident before we could make up. (So now I can say that 50% of my exes have died in freak accidents, because of my small number of exes. It’s a joke he would very much want me to make, though.)
Anyway… I do feel a lot for Dorothy, too. Sometimes, you realize that you don’t want the things that you used to center so much of your identity on, and all that reevaluating can be stressful. But I don’t think putting all her hope on rekindling her relationship with Walky would go well in the long run, even if he did decide to break up with Lucy for her. Hopefully, Dorothy will be able to work through everything and find new dreams that are a better fit for who she is now.
Yeah, imagine being my second ex and hearing “100% of my exes have died in freak accidents after I broke up with them.” He was like, “Sh…should I be nervous that you’re a serial killer?” (Still dated me anyway, though. Still alive and doing well, lol)
It’s an Agatha Christie that’s out of print. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head (I’m at work) but it starts with the protagonist meeting an older woman on the train who tells him she’s on her way to Scotland Yard because she wants to report a serial killer. The older woman never makes it and the man investigates. It actually dragged a lot and I’ve given away the one part that’s interesting(!) She didn’t just kill ex-girlfriends, but basically anyone who ever offended him.
My only Dorothy “ship” is still Dorothy/Yale. You worked so hard to get there, Dottie! You can go, even if the exact details of your ambitions are in flux! It’s all right!
Whether or not continued therapy and getting through her current crisis can or even should restore that part of her dream, I have no idea. Maybe she can’t ever accept the role the kidnapping played. But if she can, well, I want to watch this fictional person achieve her dream, goshdarnit
Mine is Dorothy/Relaxing enough not to get in her own way. I’m not particular as to what school she does that at. She’ll always be driven enough that she’s going to make a difference in whatever she figures out she wants to do, no matter what institution is named on her diploma.
Same here. She’s wanted Yale so much, and worked so hard, since the concept of this character. She doesn’t like Indiana at all. Joyce is the kind of person who stays in touch, and Dorothy can readily make new friends in a new school. Having the more fancypants diploma really does make some things in life easier. Dorothy also specifically dislikes that trope where the lady character has unladylike aspirations, so the script serves to correct her into choosing nice “girl” things like love/friendship.
Go to Yale, Dorothy. Or take a semester off if you want. But don’t give up on all your opportunities just because you’re unsure of some of the reasons you originally wanted the opportunities. They’re still opportunities! Let me break this 4th wall, dangit.
It wouldn’t have been the same anyways. Despite how he was talking about her becoming president in yesterday’s strip, I don’t think he’d be “lost in her” like he was before. I think Danny was like that too. In addition to dealing with her giving up her identity, she should probably learn how to be alone, or at least meet someone where they can be individuals together, instead of like Mentor and Devotee. Someone like Arnold.
Dorothy wouldn’t love Walky if he was the kind of guy who would have taken her up on this. This is precisely the kind of thing about Walky that she fell for.
Yes, she thought he was hot, and thought his dorkery was very endearing, but she loved his sense of right and wrong. And he knows this is wrong.
I am unwilling to judge Dorothy too harshly here, I know she’s in a rough spot, but I do hope this will provide a moment of clarity. Walky doesn’t look like he’s judging her, just, having to put his foot down.
I don’t know if Dorothy even thought he might say yes. Seems like she just wanted to say that she missed him, that she messed up, that she felt messed up. She wanted to get that weight off her chest. Lance the abscess of emotions that has been causing her so much pain.
That’s a fair point. Maybe this wasn’t a serious attempt to get him back… although reading her face in the last panel, I’m not totally sure. I read that as a bit of disappointment, but I’m not sure.
Or, she might be proving to herself that her own integrity which is now preventing her from following through with her original dream, does matter. Albeit in kind of a roundabout and shitty way. …Well, a secret test of character, which as a former mentor I guess she’s generally narratively entitled to do, and Walky is enough of a fellow fiction nerd to recognize that trope.
Seems unlikely that Dorothy would represent nabbing Walky from the girlfriend she set him up with as a *small* selfish action, though. Although, I suppose she really hasn’t done more than ask an implied question, even if it’s one which crosses boundaries big time.
And Walky believes in Dorothy, which means, whether or not she gets to be president, he still believes she’s a helluva lot better than that.
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the shitty consequences of the actions we told ourselves were for the best but deep down we didn’t actually believe in them. Massive kudos to Wally, though. He plays the fool, but he’s a good egg.
Hell, it is hardly a tempting proposition from his perspective. Which is even better – it’s not something he wishes he could do but feels morally obliged not to. He just plain does not care to do it.
I’m honestly not sure he’d be into a Dorothy who wasn’t all put-together, even without Lucy in the picture. He loved the Dorothy he could put on a pedestal, not one he is equal to. Not the real Dorothy.
So, here’s something interesting I noticed: What Dorothy’s going through right now is essentially a crisis of faith. That she will be President one day is a truth she never questioned, never doubted. There have always been naysayers – nonbelievers, if you will – but that never mattered; she believed in herself, and that was enough. But recent events have shaken that belief; she isn’t sure if the thing she believed in is good or right, and once that come into question, the very truth of it loses its certainty. I wonder if Joyce, who’s maybe a step or two further along in a similar process, might actually be able to help her unpack some things once the dust has settled.
I’d shy away from describing it as a religion, but the experience is very similar. She’s realizing the identity she’d built her life around isn’t one that fits. Joyce might be able to help, and it’d be great to see them in a friends-who-help-each-other-out dynamic. That would show progress.
I like that way of thinking about it too. That also suggests that she might well not give up on it, like she seems to be doing now and like so many commenters think she should.
Not every crisis of faith leads to losing your faith. She might come back to it with a more mature understanding and a more mature approach.
Peep the body language.
Walky’s gone from facing her full on to turning to the side.
It firmly shows that he’s rejecting the idea of him getting back with her, but it’s also a subtle rejection of her overall.
I don’t think he’ll be coming to her for romantic advice again anytime soon, and maybe not for any advice at all.
Which is kind of a shame cuz it seems to me that, while there are multiple people in their friend GROUP, it really seems like each person in said group is only really friends with one or two others and everyone just hangs around each other.
They were one of each others’ friends in this mishmash of people, and now that connection will be strained, if not worse.
yeah, this kind of thing might utterly shatter their friendship, because it was largely based on their mutual value of integrity and their admiration/respect for the other persons’. Dorothy has now flip-flopped a *lot* on Walky; She didn’t want to get romantically involved and only wanted him as a fuck-buddy, then she said she loved him, when he loved her too she broke up with him because she was afraid he’d distract her from her goals and make her fail, rebuffed his initial attempt to get back together after their shared trauma and was very encouraging of him to move on, she set him up with someone else and was very encouraging of their relationship… And now from his point of view, someone says something disparaging about her goals and she suddenly wants to take it all back?? Of course we know how things have been building for her, but she did toy with Walky’s heart by changing the rules of their relationship and bringing love into it, and then breaking up with him. Walky might be willing to be her friend, but after she pushed him to be with Lucy I think he was very done with his romantic chapter with Dorothy. He’s now with someone who actually really wants to be with him and has never made him feel like he would bring her down, or cause her to fail, or rejected.
I get where you are coming from, but I take the turn to the side as less like a total rejection as a person and more of a “and this is my final decision on the matter”. Firm, not brooking any argument, but not turning his back on her.
I didn’t say TOTAL rejection.
Hence why I chose the word subtle.
There’s now going to be a distance between them that hasn’t been there before as it won’t be like the emotional pain he felt when she broke up with him and he didn’t want to be in her vicinity.
Now there will be this extra hesitation, this extra thought concerning Dorothy, consciously or not, on whether he should be around her, what he should say to her, what behavior is appropriate, will she bring this stuff up again, should he tell Lucy, will this make hanging out with the others awkward, does the awkwardness need to be explained, etc.
There’s some comparison to Dorothy’s position when they broke up, but only a bit, as she basically only had to be concerned with his feelings (and maybe her own, she just hid it), but he has to be concerned with three people’s feelings and his now more nuanced view of Dorothy’s character (and maybe her mental well-being considering she’s giving up on both her dream job and dream school before even experiencing a taste of either).
Feelings (and math) are where Walky struggles the most, and now he has to give his A game or someone will be hurt even more than he realizes, maybe multiple someones.
Oof, yeah, I’ve been in her corner, but now that Dororthy is implying she single-handedly created Walky’s current situation with Lucy, as though Lucy and Walky didn’t get any say in it at all, is really self-centered. Good on Walky for being kind but firm about it.
I think actually feeling all this disappointment and frustration is gonna be good for her, though. And this might help her realize a bit more that not only is it not her job to manage people’s lives, she can’t actually make people do things, anyway.
saying shes sorry to him reads as like. she thinks being Lucy’s girlfriend must suck. he mentioned one problem to her now shes like, shes bad I’m good come back to me, or that she forced Walky to date Lucy??? Dotty.
I think it’s not dating Lucy that she thinks sucks, but that she’s putting him in this awkward situation where she’s now trying to break them up to get him back.
2043, The situation room:
President Keener is languidly tracing circles around a red button with her finger while absentmindedly munching on salad with lots of cheese on it.
“Sometimes you have to do small, selfish things to stay sane, right?”
“i’m at a low point and i miss you, the person i dumped” is never going to go anywhere good. Walky’s situation with Lucy is a whole other kettle of fish, but it’s his mess to wade through however he chooses. However, it should go slightly better if this conversation leads him to quit soliciting Dorothy for relationship advice. It wasn’t good ex-etiquette in the first place. And it wasn’t sensible, bc turns out Dorothy is actually pretty bad at relationships.
Maybe Lucy and Walky won’t work out in the long run (or even in the short run), but he can end things on his terms, and not for the sake of running back to the person who dumped him just bc she’s changed her mind.
Facts: Walky has had his glow-up, Joe is no longer the campus Lothario, and nature abhors a vacuum. >:3c
Okay, to all the people who saw the obvious signs, sorry for taking the “You don’t know Dorothy wants to get back together, maybe she just wants to talk…” stance. Y’all were right. As a side note, this is a great argumentative tack that Walky has taken. If he’s a good boyfriend, he should stay with Lucy, if he’s a bad boyfriend, not worth getting back together.
I mean, it doesn’t seem like he really likes Lucy all that much
he will stay with her because he is a good person and good persons in his mind stay with their partners until there’s a good reason to break up, and he is going to mark “I actually don’t like Lucy that way” as not a good reason now
I mean, he doesn’t have the same approach with her that he did with Dorothy or Amber, but I don’t think it’s out of a dislike. Like, we’ve seen he likes hanging out with her, we’ve seen he’s unambiguously attracted to her, like flirting about when they will consummate their relationship along with his visible arousal when she sucked sauce off of his shirt once, so I think the biggest issue is them moving at different speeds.
If you’re saying he’s not outright in love with her, maybe he isn’t yet, but that doesn’t mean he’s just fulfilling some obligation, either. He’s just very much not used to being the experienced party, since both Dorothy and Amber (who he technically wasn’t dating, but bare with me) had prior experience.
while I agree his approach to the issue is very flawed and you don’t need a “good reason” to break up with someone if you’re not feeling it, “my ex felt sad and wanted me back, possibly temporarily” is definitely a bad reason
he should either resolve the difference in emotional investment or get the hell out of there for sure, just… not because dorothy is sad rn
Yeah.
There’s a big difference that can easily be missed between “You don’t need a good reason to break up” and “there are no bad reasons to break up”.
To be fair, there were obvious signs she was going to do her best to shoot down Joe and Joyce too, but she didn’t end up doing that. Sometimes the signs are misdirections.
The only person Dorothy’s put into a bad situation is herself. Yes, Dorothy and Walky are a good couple, but Dorothy dumped Walky because her grades started to slip and actually told him she felt like being with him was affecting her ability to achieve her dream. Walky accepted her decision and moved on, but now Dorothy is trying to tell him that he’s in a bad situation because of the decisions that she made.
I get away from the strip one week and everything happens at once! Wow! Good to see Anti-Joyce (alive) and Walky behaving thoughtfully, even if maybe not for the right reasons. Worried about where Dorothy is going, though. Maybe she should join the Roller Derby gang.
This is a perfectly rational and mature way to handle things for this man child. She decided to dump him to chase something and… that is on her. It is unfair to throw herself at Walky like this.
In this storyline I can’t wait for the next strip, it’s all nail-biting tense (and I love it). We’ve been waiting for years for these relationship-plots to resolve, after being teased by Willis’ trademark gradual evolution. Back to my popcorn!
Huh. I was actually expecting Walky to have more conflicting emotions over this. Definitely earned some respect from me for his stance.
As for Dorothy, as much as I feel for her, part of me can’t help but smirk at the schadenfreude. NOW she knows what it’s like to love someone so much you’re willing to abandon all of your dreams and goals as long as you can be with them. She owes Danny an apology, I think.
She’s not going to Walky out of love, nor is she abandoning her dreams for him. Her dreams have collapsed and she’s running to him because he represents a memory of happier and more stable times.
A bit of both. I don’t think she ever really stopped loving him – just pushed him away because it was “self-sabotage”.
If she’s having doubts about her dreams and goals, that need to push him away to keep herself on track no longer applies.
Danny didn’t give up his dreams for Dorothy, he expected HER to give up her dreams to be with him. It’s very different and she was right to dump him for it.
How does his following her to the school she intended to go to, turn into him wanting her to give up her shot at being the president?
I am admittedly not remembering the early era other then her breaking up with him because *he* couldn’t get into Yale, not that he demanded she stay in Indiana. But entierly possible I missed or forgot that.
He didn’t demand, but he did expect. The actual breakup scene happened when he said “maybe you’ll like it here and change your mind”.
And it wasn’t that he couldn’t get into Yale, it’s that he followed her to IU.
I mean in the same breath, he did say “When you’re president” so he wasn’t saying “You *must* give up your dreams.” At worst, he thought she’d give up on the idea on her own as time went on.
And… to give him some credit, she did.
His support for his teenage-at-the-time GF’s lofty dreams of presidential conquest only seemed half-assessed to us because Dotty is a Main Character this go around. “Maybe you’ll find something *other* then president you’d rather do” is… Realistic.
is it just me, or Dumbing of Age interactions keep getting more hinged
Thank god Raidah is definitely up to no good, can’t wait to get back to that nonsense
A whole lot of people here think Walky should break up with Lucy because they don’t perceive that to be a good relationship. This is not a good way to observe a relationship you’re not involved in. It’s a toxic view that reeks of someone who has never put actual work into a relationship. Walky is where he wants to be, he can make his own calls and he just did. Respect it and move on. Dorothy needs to do the same.
It’s very different to want that from a reader point of view, where these are fictional characters, than to be another character in-universe wanting and advocating for it.
True. Readers often care more about shipping than characters actually coming into a relationship in a healthy way. But Mike is dead, so my ship has sank.
Walky jumped dick-first into both of his other relationships and they ended in fireballs, maybe he’s just trying to go a different way instead of hoping the sex is good enough to carry the rest of the relationship.
“jumped dick-first” is a weird way to describe his relationship with Amber, where as far as we know, they never actually fucked. Or even with Dorothy it was much longer before they had sex than it’s been so far with Lucy.
Regardless of whether they had penetrative sex, he was *definitely* thinking with his dick first and they definitely got up to some sex acts pretty early on.
He obliterated his relationship with Amber by being a flippant smartass. I think they might still be together if he hadn’t made light of Mike’s unalive-ed-ness.
Aaaand we’re back on the relationship thing. Talk about why you’ve concluded as you have concerning your goals and objectives. You may learn something. I know it’s all tangled up together, but unpick one thread at a time.
Dorothy had this coming and to be quite frank it’s kind of delicious. I don’t hate her, but I think she’s been an extremely selfish and self-important person and now that she’s going through this rare moment of self-doubt she’s flailing and trying to go back to familiar territory (read: being in a relationship that was fundamentally unequal in her perceived favor) and is finding out that no, she can’t do her usual thing anymore.
That’s not necessarily the case, but I hope this is the nail in the coffin for team “Walky has no actual interest in Lucy and their breakup is inevitable”. He clearly likes her a lot and cares about their relationship, even if it’s not yet at the stage he can honestly call it “love”.
He’s not instantly puppy dogging her every step or acting like being treated as an only-to-be-used-in-an-emergency ‘boyfriend’ was the best thing since the beefy supreme burrito, he *must* not give a shit about Lucy.
Maybe he’s grown since his last two relationships crash and burned.
I think he wants to do right by her, and not hurt her… whether or not he has feelings for her that are anywhere near the same intensity (or kind) as the thirst she has for him is another matter.
I think it’s very clear that his feelings, both sexual and romantic, are not as intense as Lucy’s, but there’s solid evidence that they’re characteristically similar.
In this context, it simply means “not direct”. He had only implied before that he wasn’t going to get back together with Dorothy so he wanted to make it more clear.
He’s a little confused as to how he truly feels about Lucy (does he love her, or is actually feeling loved leaving him unsure how to react), but he wants to see it through properly.
Maybe it will work out, maybe it won’t, but he’s not gonna dump Lucy because his Ex regrets leaving him.
She was definitely making a pass. She is upset to see walky moving on, she is regretting breaking up with him and is holding onto him as the one part of her life that made sense. She was hoping she could convince him to give her another try and that he’d leave Lucy for her.
My read was a little of both, with some plausible deniability mixed in.
I think that she does want to get back together with Walky, but doesn’t want to actually ask him to leave Lucy for her. She wants him to want to leave Lucy for her. To pick her so they can be together again.
But I also believe that she’s partly just wanting to be honest with herself and someone she loves about how she’s feeling right now, and doesn’t yet feel like Joyce is a safe person to talk to about Yale, and Walky is really the person she seems to be closest to besides Joyce.
Like 10-15 minutes before, she shows up and says, “I’m here because I couldn’t find Joyce so she could stop me.”
In yesterday’s strip, when Walky says he’s not getting back together with her, and gives a reason, she says his reason is invalid. In today’s strip she says she is, at that very moment, putting him in a shitty situation. Several times he’s said he’s not getting back together with her, and she’s not once said anything to indicate he was misunderstanding what she’s asking.
I don’t think it’s ambiguous anymore.
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luckily if you don’t like who Walky is boyfriend of, wait five minutes
I WILL END THE PHRASE WITH A PREPOSITION IF I WANT TO BC NOBODY SPEAKS THE OTHER WAY
The sort of pedantry up with which Winston Churchill would not put.
Hear, hear! Language is bloody lived, and evolves, and the grammar police need to F-off with their shit.
Fine, but I’ll only give up the fight on “irregardless” when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
fight on, but as i understand it we’ve been trying to stamp out “irregardless” for like a hundred years, it’s a linguistic cockroach that won’t quite die
Even if you look at “Strunk & White”, which is regarded as being too rigid and strict with it’s rules on word usage, it says “Years
ago, students were warned not to end a sentence with a preposition; time, of course, has softened that rigid decree. Not only is the preposition acceptable at the end, sometimes it is more effective in that spot than anywhere else.”
Elements of Style is the title, just to be clear.
That “rule” was just some stuck up jerk that wanted English to be more like Latin anyway. Never truly existed in English.
“i before e except after c”
Is false more often than it is true.
As the only fully evolved first world language, English doesn’t have rules. It has guidelines. And any attempt to make guidelines for it will leave said guidlines broken, defeated,… and ded.
“fully evolved first world language”? interesting, what do you mean?
Like all the best elements of the “first world”, English claims to be fundamentally superior to all its peers thanks to all the clever ideas it has shamelessly stolen from others.
a great quote i read from some linguist: “English doesn’t borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark allies,
knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”
Walky did the right thing, the fool. He’s really going to regret this.
This is one of those situations where you’ll regret any choice you make. So you should do the right thing, because it comes with the least regrets.
As I understand it, acting with integrity is supposed to leave one without regrets!
I don’t think he will. If he went back to her, he’d always be wondering if he was holding her back, because she established that dynamic early on. Plus, Lucy has never made him feel unstable in their relationship, even if he isn’t yet ready to say he loves her back because it’s too soon. Dorothy changed up their dynamic multiple times on him.
Or Walky (or Dorothy, or Lucy) could broach ENM or a polycule. If he knew what those were.
They could be
aThe Triumverate.Lucy is way too vanilla for that.
Is she though? Is she really?
But wouldn’t it be “to” instead of “of”? I mean I guess “of” works but it sounds wrong.
I tried to rewrite that a bunch but ehhhh effort
Wham you go Walky!
A lot of the time, I find that Walky kind of annoys me. Here, though, these last few strips, he’s a goddamned paragon of an awesome human being.
I find Walky only annoys me when it’s about himself, I feel like he’s always been great with other people.
Hm.
I should try and focus on that, see if that’s what bugs me about him.
Good shit Walky. Never doubted you.
I mean, breaking up with Lucy would be fine.
Just tell her.
It wouldn’t be fine because he doesn’t want this. He’s got a girlfriend, he’s putting in effort to make it work, and he’s very plainly uninterested in leaving her to get back together with Dorothy. Maybe that will change later, but right now? Dorothy needs to stop.
dunno, man
all we’ve seen seems to indicate he enjoys her company as a friend. Basically he liked how they spent time together before Dorothy pushed them together
but now he is going to double down on wanting to love Lucy and it’s going to backfire
as Sal said: this relationship was pre-screwed
Yeah. Walky’s phrasing here gives me cause for concern.
While the rejection of Dorothy is clear, his reasoning isn’t ‘I like Lucy’ but rather “you said I was a good boyfriend and I’m lucy’s boyfriend” as if this is a logic puzzle.
Like, I don’t feel like he’s taking responsibility for his decision. He’s somehow putting it on Dorothy as though she dubbed him ‘good boyfriend’ and now he must live up to that responsibility or something. It’s weird.
I more interpreted this as “I’m doing a thing you won’t like, but hey, I have integrity. You like that I have integrity, it’s a good thing to have. What are you even doing, asking me to break my integrity?”
(No regrets!)
You’ll notice that Dorothy never actually asked Walky to leave Lucy in as many words. I think if she’d thought she had a shot she would have been more direct. She believed in Walky too much I think.
+1
That’s how I interpreted it. He’s trying to make her see his point of view.
Walky: Communications Major.
Even if Walky isn’t sure he loves Lucy, he’s sure he doesn’t want to hurt her. She’s given him no reason to break up and he does enjoy her company.
He’s in his late teens. “Because I must be a good boyfriend” is already way more thoughtful and considerate than most kids can do at that age. What would you have preferred? A torrid love declaration? That sort of purely emotional response is the one that can waver from one day to the next and which will be impotent in the face of the temptation to cheat.
Say what? I once was a teenager with a girlfriend, and back then, like now, nothing you could say or do could convince me to cheat or otherwise knowingly break the heart of a romantic partner.
Not so much “must be a good boyfriend” as “mustn’t be a piece of human garbage”, maybe, but evaluates to pretty much the same thing. Also very easy to motivate – if I would not want to be treated like that, then it’s pretty obvious I shouldn’t treat someone else like that.
These are all things you ought to have mostly figured out by the time you leave tweenage and enter your teenage, though I am aware that there are some people who reach both adulthood and senility without doing so.
that sounds amazing. I wish everyone would be that mature as a young adult! however, unfortunately, that isn’t obvious to most people.
And most of all: we tend to act to our best knowledge and ability we have *at that point*. Looking back at my teens, AND at my 20s, i do have a lot of cringe moments. I know that back then, i did think i was doing the right thing to be a good partner.
But good intentions don’t always lead to good relationship dynamics.
*shrug* Good on you? I hope that you got a medal, or at least got to look down on most other, hormone-driven, teenage-minded kids and feel really good about yourself.
Before you retort that maybe it’s just that I myself was a “human garbage” and that’s why I think other kids are, allow me to explain that my perspective comes from being a secondary teacher and interacting with teenagers on a daily basis. What you call “being human garbage” I call “being a stupid but non-malicious kid who doesn’t have a fucking idea of how to navigate the feelings they are suddenly experiencing and whose mind is addled both by hormones and poor role models in mass media, or perhaps at home”.
I feel like it’s more like “My answer should be obvious to you. You observed what kind of boyfriend I am, and it is not the kind who breaks up with my girlfriend I’m happy with because a ‘better’ offer comes along. You already know this about me. You had your answer before you even approached me, let alone the 5 times in this conversation already.”
This. ^ ^
This++
Or he’s effectively just saying, “you /know/ why this won’t happen,” instead of trying to think of a reason it can.
You are treating as if being faithful isn’t an important thing and as if the most important thing is how much the other person gets you hot and bothered. Why in the world do you think that “I like Lucy” is a more important thing here than “I am faithful to Lucy”?
Cuz he can break up with Lucy if he doesn’t like her?
I took it more like he felt Dorothy should have known what he’d do – not as him trying to measure up and/or placing the onus of what that means on Dorothy.
Like – You already recognized my good behavior, why are you expecting less of me?
(I want to clarify I’m not saying I’m right- just offering how I took it in the interest of talking about it.)
we don’t know how long it’ll last but it’s nice that it wasn’t an excuse or so or he doesn’t subconsciously look for a reason/excuse to end things with lucy even if he’s concerned about going further with lucy
though not sure if he’ll completely tell lucy about this convo with dorothy tho
Lucy would probably be better off being spared knowing.
She’ll find out when they have their talk about the L-word. “Maybe you should go back to Dorothy!” “Dorothy told me she wants me back. I told her no.” “[small voice] what???” And then real conversation begins.
I have decided that standing on that snow pile gives Walky a +2 to Wisdom.
Snowpile of Inspired wisdom +2, also he’s been standing in it long enough to atune to it
I mean, Gravel Pile of Inspired Wisdom now. Maybe it only works AFTER the snow is gone?
When the ephemeral glittery snow has melt, only the dirty rocky truth remains.
Maybe Walky has /become/ the snow on the mound, taking
its cold, bright wisdom for his own?
Damn, he already got a +2 inherent Cha bonus lately, he must be grinding those levels.
But how many adventures does the buff last for after he leaves the area?
I assume it works like the ceremony spell, so 7 days after the last time he spent at least an hour standing on it.
I think it’s more a confidence thing than a wisdom thing. He can say ANYTHING here, no matter how profound, and his goofball status will remain intact.
But you admit what Raidah said was bullshit right? Like we can reset the day erasing that and Dorothy can come out okay.
Dorothy: I mean, yes, I CAN be a war criminal if I want. I’d be really good at it.
She would be excellent if she wanted to, but she can’t want to.
“So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it…
Computer, erase that entire personal log.”
Two weeks later, on Subspace Wikileaks…
Dorothy never wanted to be Sisko. She wanted to be Janeway.
And you never go full Janeway.
Why not? You get all the nebula coffee you want.
IMO, she wanted to be Picard. Particularly the parts where you get to make great speeches, and the universe always gives you a third option where everyone wins so you never have to compromise your principles.
I think more people would go full Janeway if they were placed in Janeways situation than most Janeway-haters would like to admit.
Janeway did what needed to be done. Most Captains never could handle it.
Here’s the problem, it’s really not. Raidah had a point, and if it wasn’t her it would have been something else, this was building for a while
I don’t like the whole “they had a point” justification. Maybe Dorothy would’ve gotten here on her own, maybe she would’ve figured something else out. We’ll never know now cause Raidah had a takedown ready.
The truth doesn’t change just because the person saying it is an asshole. Fact is Dorothy’s personality is not a good fit for politics, and that’s not going to go away now that she knows it.
My argument is we don’t know that. It seems everyone is framing this in absolutes including Raidah herself. She frames it as Presidents are war criminals thus Dorothy’s dream of being president was a bad one, but it’s impossible to know where that dream would lead. Maybe Dorothy wouldn’t have reached the Oval Office, but would still be a politician, not all of them are evil…maybe. Or maybe it would’ve transformed into something else during the process. The point isn’t about being right. It’s that you shouldn’t break people down.
Raidah’s an asshole with selfish motives but this is very much a Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point situation. She was right and I think Dorothy needed to hear it
Dorothy was on the journey already though? She even says it here. What does Raidah’s unprompted takedown on her do? Even Walky admits it was bullshit. I don’t think Raidah’s point is meant to be valid discredit of her dream as much as it was hurt Dorothy and bring her to an emotional low. Point being Walky, who we all agree is a real friend still unquestioningly supports Dorothy’s dream because of her as a person and not his flawed belief of what a president is.
Walky’s belief in her ambition is endearing and sweet but it doesn’t mean that ambition was good or achievable.
Dorothy was clinging to a childish fantasy about what she wanted from her life, it’s not a bad thing that she’s being forced to re-examine what that actually means and if it’s something she actually wants.
Raidah is not wrong about what becoming President would require, the sort of person you’d have to become. You can’t just get the right person into the oval office and fix everything, that’s not how it works. Good people don’t get to become commander-in-chief of the biggest army in the history of the world.
Nitpick, but ‘biggest army’ is wrong. China currently has a bigger army and a bigger military in general, the Soviet Union very likely had a larger military, and so on.
‘Most powerful military’ might be accurate. Everything else you said is pretty accurate though.
Yeah that’s badly phrased on my part.
“Presidents are war criminals” sounds to me as childish as “I want to be president”.
It is childish in how simplistic it is, ignoring the complexity of situations and how people might not have all the information while having to make a quick decision (and looking at things in hindsight is always going to look different). There can also be a difference between something being morally horrible but still possibly the best option at the time. During WW2, people of Asian descent were removed from their homes and put into camps in the US, which while horrible, was popular at the time if I recall right. People blamed them for the attack on Pearl Harbor and worried that they might be spies or betray the country. It might have been needless worries, but there was a chance that it wasn’t, and all it takes is a chance for people to take matters into their own hands and start a riot or targeted attacks (just look at the racial attacks due to the covid pandemic). Rather than the government try to watch over everyone, while trying to keep the populace calm, and with a war (restrictions on items, and a draft), the simplest and easiest solution was to separate the groups. It is worth noting that there were people that were enemy sympathizers that could “blend in” to the white general population (no obvious physical identifying characteristics). People tend to like having physical identifiers to sort people into groups (note people wearing similar clothing to show solidarity or be a part of a group). That just makes it easier to see it as an “us vs them” even if that isn’t the case.
In any case, it is easy to look back at a situation (especially far removed from the emotions of the time period) and say that you would have done it differently. There is no guarantee that the “better” solution you would have picked would have ended better and not been considered poorly in the future. Talk is cheap, but actual decisions and actions have consequences reaching far beyond what you would have ever expected.
A statement being simple does not mean it is incorrect.
Likewise you can write a lot of words and still come up with an argument that is neither useful nor true, which you have helpfully provided an example of
I was responding to “presidents are war criminals” being considered childish. In a general sense, yes there are a lot of war criminals who are presidents. I also think that you would be hard put to not find a side that hasn’t done a war crime in a war. I don’t exactly know what you don’t find useful or true in my comment, since you are so vague, generalized, and lacking any support to make your point other than what is your own personal opinion about my comment, which you are fully entitled to have. I do tend to prefer criticism that is actually helpful, since I find friendly debate can help people reform their ideas and understand concepts and other people’s points of view better. So if you ever want to elaborate more, I would appreciate it. Maybe it is because I am on the spectrum, but there is nothing more confusing to me than someone telling me that my thoughts are not relevant to the conversation without explaining why.
Maybe it would in a dictatorship, but in anything with a bit of democracy where you have to work with other people there will always be compromises and limitations. Even if you have a large majority of the public agreed on something, it is still hard to pass (how you word it, making sure that there are no loopholes, etc). That is the problem of living in a society that respects others opinions, but it also can help protect from having one bad person in charge that ruins everything.
I love how a lot of these arguments lead to “dictatorships could be good, unlike democracy”.
@thejeff I don’t think Kimi’s point was that dictatorships could be good, or better, they were pointing out that compromise is the major pitfall of democracy. Every governmental structure has flaws that make corruption possible or even likely, acknowledging that a dictatorship doesn’t have the same flaws as democracy is decidedly not the same thing as claiming dictatorship is without flaw. The dream of a benevolent dictator is an attractive one, and even an achievable one, but the issue is that sooner or later the benevolent dictator will die or retire or be usurped and eventually you will wind up with a horrifically corrupt dictator who makes life awful for the citizens they rule, so dictatorship is not a great model for a long term government structure.
Democracy needs to somehow balance reflecting the will of the people in the laws with rule of law for the good of the people. There are ways to limit the extent corruption can reach in a democratic republic, things like term limits and restricting campaign donations so they are harder to turn into legal bribes would go a long way toward dealing with the corruption in the current version of the US legislature, but it isn’t possible to totally eliminate corruption or make it immune to being corrupted in the future. Awareness of the weaknesses and flaws in your model makes easier to cover for those weaknesses and flaws and mitigate their effects, compromise is one of the major flaws of democracy, better than the flaws of other models IMO, but still a major flaw nonetheless and acknowledging that in discussions of governmental structure is a good thing.
I don’t think it was the intent either, but it’s the inevitable result of the logic.
Just thinking that compromise is bad and government should be one person’s pure vision is creepy and dangerous as hell. As is the idea that a benevolent dictator is somehow more achievable than benevolent democracy.
@thejeff Psychie didn’t say that a benevolent dictator was *more* achievable than benevolent democracy, nor did they say that compromise is bad, anymore than Kimi said dictatorships could be good or better than democracy. None of the bad-faith or questionable arguments that you’re describing are actually being made.
You seem to be developing a pattern in this discussion of putting words in people’s mouths and attacking that instead of addressing the points they’re actually making. I don’t know if you’re doing that on purpose or not, but if not then I’d like to request that you stop. It’s immensely irritating and off-putting.
I am in absolutely no form condoning dictatorships. I am just referencing a common tactic they (and monarchies) use to defend their existence, which can be enticing to people in times of conflict and discord. The pitfalls tend to happen when people expect democracies to have quick solutions when their nature of compromise means that is not likely to happen, which results in frustration and people looking for other solutions. I find that the majority of people tend to regret switching to a dictatorship in order to expedite their views rather than waiting for compromise and democracy to slowly push through. It never ends the way they want and always turns bad sooner rather than later. It is important to acknowledge that the process is frustrating but that the option to burn it all down and put one person you consider “good” in charge is a very, very bad option. To put it s bit into engineering terms, a healthy democracy should have many failsafe built into it, with the multiple people involved providing redundancies so that if one person is bad, they can be canceled out by another who is good. This makes each individual person’s morality less of a breaking point in the whole system (provided the fail safes and the like work optimally). A dictatorship relies on the morality of just one person, and only that person all the time. That is a huge weak point. What it makes up in speed, it loses in the reliability of the very thing you want it to do. That being said, you can see situations where one person is put in charge in cases where speed is a necessity (emergency situations, sometimes war decisions, etc.). Normally the thought process there is that quick action will be taken (normally to save lives) according to previously set rules that will then be reviewed later after the emergency situation is over. You cannot have a democratic leadership in a situation like evacuating a town almost surrounded by a forest fire. You need the speed and clarity of decision making that one person in charge gives in order to orderly and rapidly evacuate the town safely. If every single problem needing to be solved by the government requires the speed of running from a forest fire at your doorstep, I think that you have major problems, and possibly a volcano in your backyard.
Sometimes when you re-examine your childhood beliefs, values and plans, you conclude, “I was right, but now I know why.”
Raidah had an excellent point. What Dorothy actually admitted was bullshit were her immediate justifications. Because at the end of the day, doing the job requires doing things current Dorothy does not want to do. She does not want to become the person who can do those things, and she knows the system will not allow in someone who refuses to continue America as a genocidal invasion state.
Whether Raidah is right or wrong is basically immaterial here. If one person saying something you don’t like is enough to stop you in your tracks and disrupt your sense of mission, then no you were never going to be the president.
She’d already decided not to go to Yale before Raidah said anything. It’s been hanging over her all semester.
Walky’s asking if that was it. That’s the only reason Raidah comes up today.
I legitimately didn’t want to start a thread like this. I just liked that Walky agreed that Raidah’s take was dumb. I didn’t realize people were so passionate about Raidah’s opinions.
Did you not read the comments on that strip?
True. Her stated reasoning for not going to Yale at the time did not strengthen the case that very high level politics is in her future. People like that take every possible advantage to advance, they don’t stop because of (kinda abstract) moral caveats. If her conviction is truly that she has something to offer through service, the particular reason she personally goes to Yale shouldn’t be an impediment.
That said… My speculation is that the real reason she won’t go to Yale is because she won’t abandon Joyce.
Dorothy was already well on her journey of self-doubt, Raidah’s comments were just the last straw. Hearing them so bluntly from another person was just confirmation of what she already felt.
Sure. I was mostly using her challenge as an example. The USA has had a good number of presidents with different attitudes, personality traits. Self doubt is rarely one of them (for good and for ill) Loads of other flaws, they didn’t get to the top by being perfect, that’s for sure.
In that particular instance I don’t think what Raidah said was bullshit. For once she was right about something. It’s like that parody news article: Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point
I’d argue that Raidah knows what she said is BS since if she thought becoming part of a systems makes you responsible for all that systems crimes and that is a bad thing, then she wouldn’t be trying to become a lawyer.
Dorothy: No, no, I want you to break up with Lucy. Not cheat on her.
I mean, so long as everyone is onboard with the idea, there is also polyamory.
I feel like Walky has more reasons than monogamy not to take Dorothy back.
But the fact that monogamy is his stated reason to limit his relationship with Dorothy is one of the reasons I don’t do monogamy anymore.
I honestly can’t see Lucy being legitimately on-board with polyamory given her current views on religion, life, love, and romance. I *could* see her being convinced to try it to “keep” Walky if she thought the alternative was losing him, but that’s a very bad reason to try polyamory.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with polyamory, can see why it works for a lot of people, and am on board with people doing it if it makes them happy. I also acknowledge that I don’t want it in my life, I have no interest in being with multiple romantic partners at once, and I don’t think I could handle my partner also being with other guys if I’m not gonna be with other girls. Is that selfish? Yes, but that’s still an honest summary of how I would react to being in that situation.
I wasn’t sure what dorothy expected tbh
as much as lucy and him don’t have the easy chemistry he and dorothy did, there’s a big difference between doing something about realising that and just going back to your ex because they’re sad about missing you
could easily go the other way tomorrow though depending on how dorothy plays this
What was she even thinking? She wasn’t for once, haha. Too bad she went there — all she needed was a heart-to-heart with someone. Walky got advice from her. She can get advice from Walky, that’s fair. She should have had more respect for Walky than to say out loud that dating Lucy is a bad situation. I agree! But her saying it will just glue Walky to Lucy.
The bad situation isn’t “You’re dating Lucy”, it’s “You’re dating Lucy, we broke up for stupid reasons and I want you back”. I feel like Dorothy is covertly asking forgiveness for how selfish she’s been regarding Walky all along- their interactions(?) have always been for her own convenience (“it’s for fun” “no it’s serious” “I don’t have time for a boyfriend now” “If you’re dating I’m less tempted to get back with yoy”) And that’s not the kind of person she found out she wants to be.
The bad situation is her wanting him to break up with Lucy so they can fuck.
I don’t get how this is hard for people. She wanted him to drop Lucy because she wants him back, and she knows it’s a shitty thing for him to do, but she wants him to do it for her.
Walky, being not an asshole, tells her the ship has sailed. the mental gymnastics some of the people in here are doing makes my brain hurt.
[Michael Scott thank you dot gif]
Like, what did anyone expect when she brought up a small, selfish act? A big, non-selfish one? She’s basically asking a question she probably knew the answer to, almost as an excuse to get some of her feelings out in the open. Really not that big a deal, in the long run.
Sometimes you just need to voice your feelings to the relevant person even if you don’t expect anything to come of it, if nothing else just so you can have a resolution for said feelings and move on. I’ve found, for example, if I have a crush that’s distracting me, asking her out even when I know what her answer’s gonna be allows me to get over it and move on, best case scenario she says yes and we can give it a shot, worst case scenario she says no and I can move on, but if I do nothing I fixate and that’s not healthy.
Even if Dorothy knows Walky won’t leave Lucy to be with her, heck even if she knows Walky won’t take her back even if he were single (something I’m not sure is true, here), she still needed to make her feelings known so she can start dealing with them in a healthy manner. Admitting you want something and getting confirmation that you can’t have it allows you to deal with it and move forward.
Well done, Walky. Doing the right thing by yourself and Lucy.
And Dorothy, honestly.
Yeah. If they had gotten back together like this, Dorothy would have hated herself for it later. And it probably wouldn’t last as a result.
Hey, you got them together in the first place so you wouldn’t get back together with him, so Mission Accomplished!
I forgot about that. Good catch.
oh no the thing i did to stop me from doing something impulsive i’d regret worked exacfly as planned
Take my imaginary upvote!👍
“Oh no! Everything’s going according to plan!”
Yup, good job with the self-sabotage again Dorothy!
“Well well well, if it isn’t the consequences of my own actions.”
Good for Walky. Dorothy’s spiral down is gonna get much worse, but Walky’s in a relationship, a currently stable one compared to his previous ones (which atleast ended nicely-ish?).
I would say it’s stable if Lucy wasn’t trying to speed run it.
So long as she respects Walky’s speed, its all good really. She can be excited about having a BF and wanting to do things, AND respect his slower pace. They haven’t hit a “this is me putting the brakes on” place yet though.
And its not like the bulk of the relationships haven’t been GQD TASbot grade either.
Yeah, the biggest issue isn’t Lucy’s pacing, it’s that Walky hasn’t communicated that they aren’t on the same page. She can’t respect his boundaries if he won’t tell her what they are.
But that’s really only a problem because she wildly misinterpreted his comment to mean they were on the same page.
And a “I don’t really love you” conversation is tricky and dangerous.
“I care about you, but my last two relationships we jumped into sex too early (I’m pretty sure amber and him did a sex, but people have put the doubt in my mind, but it still works) and it screwed things up. I don’t want to screw things up by screwing you too soon.”
but then its walky… the dirt pile can only help so much.
Wait, would that be even partially true, though? I don’t think I’ve gotten even a whiff that anybody involved in either relationship regrets the physical intimacy or when it happened. It seems like both were primarily torpedoed by coping badly with external social/emotional stressors (ambition, mental illness, surprise sister-stabbing connections…)
I think it would be way worse both ethically and practically for Walky to misrepresent which aspect of the relationship he’s hesitant about. The way I read recent events is that if he’s hesitant to have sex with Lucy it’s *because* he doesn’t yet love her and knows she considers that a prerequisite, rather than having a complicated relationship with sex himself.
Yeah, she’s just eager and hopped up on friends to lovers fanfic. Honestly i think if walker were able to just have a conversation with her about it most of their problems would be solved
I think Walky’s previous relationships ended well-ish because of Walky and who he chooses relationships with, Lucy excepted. I really believe that Lucy will turn into if they break up.
There is some problems down the road with Lucy but at least Walky is committed to solving those problems eventually.
By problems I mean Lucy thinks Walky said I love you and they have been dating for less then a month, that needs to be resolved. Also Lucy possibly wants to be friends with Radiahs group and that’s something that needs to be solved.
Congratulations.
You played yourself.
Oh poor Dorothy. I’ve been the Walky in this situation and it sucks, but she looks so very crushed. I’m still not the biggest fan of Walky and Lucy (they have all the chemistry of flour and slightly more glutinous flour imo, I need more cute scenes from them), but I’m very glad that he’s staying loyal to her and sticking this hard boundary. I’m not even upset at him being so firm with it, Dorothy pressed the issue after he tried to delicately redirect the conversation and shut it down before it got here.
Only thing is, now I’m not sure where Dorothy’s gonna go from here and I’m lowkey worried about her.
Me too. She seems to be really spiraling. It hurts to watch.
Dorothy’s “gifted kid burnout” finally caught up to her, and she’s realizing what she threw away in vain pursuit of an unreachable goal.
I think recognizing the lack of chemistry between them is what’s leading Dorothy to be so cavalier in this situation; Dorothy and Walky are similar levels of iconoclastic subcultural weirdo, make a ton of sense together, have proven to be a good couple (and have proven to have mind-blowing sex) whereas Lucy is… sort of an ascended normie who has a crush on the cool kid, which he reciprocates cuz “why not” – it’s not a very nice thing to do to her, really, not when she’s so much more into him than he is into her. But, contra nonbinary sociopath Booster’s advice, *Walky* can do way better than *Lucy* and it’s only natural for Dorothy to pick up on that.
It’s nice to see her get an arc though, instead of being a sort of stock character.
She’s gonna go… to Danny. Yikes that’ll go well.
Oh noooooooo that would be horrifying
Sal would absolutely murder her and we’d never find the body.
Oh man, she threw Danny away like she threw Walky away, so that would be glorious to watch the realization she’s burned every dick bridge but Joe.
I never doubted you for a second, Walky. I just hope Dorothy takes no for an answer, because if she keeps this up things could get ugly.
I did doubt him for a second when it sounded like he was on the “you’re destined to be president and I would make you fail” bit, but I doubted him even more in the other direction (today’s reaction but a angry). I’m glad he’s mature Walky who provided an opportunity for face-saving, but was clear when it was needed, without salt in the wound. (even if that anger is be justified)
Walky you’re a good egg
*pushes Lucy off cliff*
That’s an unexpected twist on Humpty Dumpty.
Look, Lucy is fine.
I just don’t like her and I want to see my ship fixed and sailing again.
Your ship must sink so mine by sail. Onwards SS Lucky
I’m completely ambivalent about both Dorothy and Lucy.
The only Walky-including ship I have ever cared about, including in previous universes, is Garbageskowl. Unless that one gets repaired and out of drydock, I don’t really care who Walky dates.
Garbage ROOOOF.
SS Garbage Skowl for life (and the end of mine is probably how long it will take for that ship to sail again)!
If you’re my age, probably.
Garbage roof was the only Walky ship that has equal footing for both partners, so I’ll forever prefer it to anything else he’s going to attach his mast too.
I don’t even hate Lucy but there’s some clear issues with I almost want to say hero worship going on there. She’s still a better GF then Dotty was.
IF they get back together, Dorothy’s liable to drop Walky like a hot potato if she sees him as an anchor holding her back from whatever her next ambition happens to be. She did it to him once, and did it to Danny previously.
Dorothy just didn’t like Danny that much. Yale was the excuse, not the reason. She does like Walky. It’s not a relevant data point.
It works because Lucy’s so shelltered.
I love you Dorothy, I do, but Walky was never going to wait around forever for you to decide that you actually did love him after all. It wouldn’t be fair to him. Even though he has some troubles Lucy (namely the saying I love you and the sexual stuff) regardless I do think he cares about her and enjoys his time with her. He doesn’t put her on a pedestal, compared to his relationship with Dorothy.
This is a very painful lesson for Dorothy to learn, but it is needed. Plus, she’s falling back into extremes like Ruth pointed out. She either goes all in on school and breaks up with her boyfriend, or she gives up on everything and puts all her hopes on her ex-boyfriend. Poor girl needs to learn to just… exist. She’s not going to become President tomorrow, she has time. Time to experiment, time to fall in love, time to actually enjoy her life while she has it.
Dorothy has many great qualities. But she has not yet learned to chill.
No, I think she just needs to get laid by someone nice, and nobody of her preferred gender to get laid by is nicer in this universe than Walky. And that’s an unfortunate fact.
What’s wrong with Jacob, besides the fact that he hasn’t shown up since the timeskip?
Jacob suprised-kissed a girl while in a relationship with another girl, and then told the first girl “you’re not who I want”.
Yeah, he kinda did do that, huh.
I read that conversation as less “You’re not who I want,” and more “Sucks that we both spiked this because I do want you, but I don’t trust you anymore.”
Yeah, basically.
I suspect Dorothy would nicely fit Jacob’s original checklist, but not match what he’s looking for now.
First off I wouldn’t call Lucy a “Bad shifty situation” it’s complicated and lately I’m more worried about her blowing this more than Walky now. But Lucy is a decent person and even though I don’t know this one will last she atleast deserves to atleast not have her first relationship with her first boyfriend end on sour note this.
Sexonde Dorothy wouldn’t have gotten with Walky if he wasn’t the type of guy she said he was the whole time. She made his bed now she hast to lie in it.
I took her to mean her coming to him and asking him to choose between them was shitty.
But she did it anyway poor thing.
She’s not making great decisions at the moment.
This is where Wally needs to tell Dorothy to suck it up and accept the offer from Yale. Otherwise, she’ll regret it for the rest of her life.
She could also go to Yale and regret it for the rest of her life
Yeah, if Dorothy’s spiraling now, being around a whole bunch of other people who are used to being the smartest person in the room and/or take the Raidah approach to networking is probably not going to help with that. Also, Yale’s currently facing a lawsuit over how they’ve handled mental health issues, so…
Nah. I was one of 20 grad students selected for a graduate program at UT Austin back in the early 90s. Of the 20, I was horrified to learn that I was the only one accepted from a small state university. I was coming from Idaho State U. All of us had been top of our class, but Summa Cum Laude with a 4.0 GPA at ISU in a crowd of Summas from Princeton, Harvard, and U Chicago was pretty much the definition of “big fish in a small pond dumped in Lake Superior.” I managed. Sure, I had a hefty dose of imposter syndrome but so did everyone in my class. Once I realized that everyone else was as worried as me, I settled in just fine. Do I think Dorothy’s anxiety will just go away if she ignores it? Of course not. She should get counseling, ASAP. But should she make such a wasteful decision based on her anxiety? Hell no.
Changing her mind a semester after going to Yale is helluva lot easier than the reverse.
Regretting for things you didn’t do is worse that things you did…
Is it really?
Lots of things you can do that can lead real quickly to serious regrets.
Should Walky dump Lucy for Dorothy because otherwise he might regret not doing it and that would be worse that regretting doing it?
I have found “didn’t do” and “did do” regrets to be interchangeable.
Unless doing the thing puts you on the road to committing war crimes. At that point it might be better to regret not doing that.
“Oh, if only I’d been a war criminal when I had the chance.”
I wonder if he’ll even notice the Yale thing.
There’s a Casablanca reference in here somewhere.
She hasn’t said “yes” but she didn’t say “no”.
( she didnt say stay and she didnt say go )
Man all the people who thought that this wasn’t going to end with Dorothy trying to get back with Walky must feel silly now.
And all the people who thought Walky would be up for it should probably feel even sillier.
Still waiting for her to ask….
She hasn’t asked directly, but if you read between the lines it’s pretty obvious she wants him back.
No, don’t you know it only counts if she expressly throws herself at him? At least, that’s what I was told yesterday by someone saying it was ridiculous that we were all reading “I want you to drop Lucy and take me back” into Dorothy in this arc.
Well, looks like it was “part of the commentariat” AND “Walky” reading that into if.
(I should note that I would not be surprised if Dorothy, tomorrow, asserts she WASN’T trying to get back with him, why would you assume that, etc. I’m almost coming around to the idea that she’s more “working through shit by talking at Walky and getting in over her head” than “seriously trying to get him back”, myself.)
“I miss you. It was a mistake to let you go. I’m sorry about the shitty position I’m putting you in now (asking you to choose between your current partner and me, your ex who has played hot and cold).”
C’mon.
Implications don’t exist characters only have desires and intentions if they explicitly state them
Characters can’t just say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!
Desires, intentions, and actions are three different things.
It’s so hard for me to not write every character like Fifth Panel Walky
Does anyone else think Dorothy looks…annoyed in that last panel? I’m worried she’s about to push harder or get angry/mean with Walky.
Anyway, this was inevitable in some form or another, I’m disappointed Dorothy went this route. I really do NOT need to see Dorothy shattered into a million pieces, thanks very much, but I’m worried that the comic already had all its fun dragging Joyce through a mile of shit and now wants to do the same thing with Dorothy.
Yeah yeah, “it ain’t called Smarting of Age” blah blah blah, but even when characters made bad choices in the past it felt a little less…jarring, I guess. Now it’s just starting to feel constantly contrived for maximum pathos.
I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if she tried to kiss Walky.
oh god, please, no …
Yeah, the cringe will be painful for everyone including us! Plus, for Dorothy to act purely on emotion then get humiliated would be a final blow to her self-esteem and sanity right now. Who does she have to talk to and lean on here?
She’s definitely on a self-destructive path here.
Dorothy’s long overdue for a course correction. (A real one, not “double down on effort, no distractions”.)
Walky’s doing gangbusters here! I hope they get to talk about this more.
Now I’m having flashbacks to my first-ever ex (who I stayed friends with for years afterward) and how he encouraged me to get with the person who’s now my wife of several years, but then a couple years later he confesses that he wanted us to get back together, as if he’d totally forgotten he helped give me the nerve to pursue my current relationship in the first place. (I basically had to do what Walky’s doing here.*)
*Sadly, this did make stuff awkward between us, and then we drifted apart and then my ex died in a freak accident before we could make up. (So now I can say that 50% of my exes have died in freak accidents, because of my small number of exes. It’s a joke he would very much want me to make, though.)
Anyway… I do feel a lot for Dorothy, too. Sometimes, you realize that you don’t want the things that you used to center so much of your identity on, and all that reevaluating can be stressful. But I don’t think putting all her hope on rekindling her relationship with Walky would go well in the long run, even if he did decide to break up with Lucy for her. Hopefully, Dorothy will be able to work through everything and find new dreams that are a better fit for who she is now.
“You know, freak accidents tend to happen to people who break up with me.”
Yeah, imagine being my second ex and hearing “100% of my exes have died in freak accidents after I broke up with them.” He was like, “Sh…should I be nervous that you’re a serial killer?” (Still dated me anyway, though. Still alive and doing well, lol)
I literally just finished a murder mystery with that plot yesterday. (It was the first girlfriend trying to frame him in a long game.)
Oh, that’s a neat coincidence! What’s it called?
It’s an Agatha Christie that’s out of print. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head (I’m at work) but it starts with the protagonist meeting an older woman on the train who tells him she’s on her way to Scotland Yard because she wants to report a serial killer. The older woman never makes it and the man investigates. It actually dragged a lot and I’ve given away the one part that’s interesting(!) She didn’t just kill ex-girlfriends, but basically anyone who ever offended him.
Thanks! That premise did sound like an Agatha Christie, lol
I think that’s Murder is Easy / Easy to Kill.
Yes!
Yeah courtship does not work like this. It’s a pretty off-putting way to be propositioned.
I dunno, seems like the right place for someone to suggest getting down and dirty.
My only Dorothy “ship” is still Dorothy/Yale. You worked so hard to get there, Dottie! You can go, even if the exact details of your ambitions are in flux! It’s all right!
Whether or not continued therapy and getting through her current crisis can or even should restore that part of her dream, I have no idea. Maybe she can’t ever accept the role the kidnapping played. But if she can, well, I want to watch this fictional person achieve her dream, goshdarnit
Mine is Dorothy/Relaxing enough not to get in her own way. I’m not particular as to what school she does that at. She’ll always be driven enough that she’s going to make a difference in whatever she figures out she wants to do, no matter what institution is named on her diploma.
Team Doro-laxing for the wi… wait, we need a better name for this.
Same here. She’s wanted Yale so much, and worked so hard, since the concept of this character. She doesn’t like Indiana at all. Joyce is the kind of person who stays in touch, and Dorothy can readily make new friends in a new school. Having the more fancypants diploma really does make some things in life easier. Dorothy also specifically dislikes that trope where the lady character has unladylike aspirations, so the script serves to correct her into choosing nice “girl” things like love/friendship.
Go to Yale, Dorothy. Or take a semester off if you want. But don’t give up on all your opportunities just because you’re unsure of some of the reasons you originally wanted the opportunities. They’re still opportunities! Let me break this 4th wall, dangit.
It wouldn’t have been the same anyways. Despite how he was talking about her becoming president in yesterday’s strip, I don’t think he’d be “lost in her” like he was before. I think Danny was like that too. In addition to dealing with her giving up her identity, she should probably learn how to be alone, or at least meet someone where they can be individuals together, instead of like Mentor and Devotee. Someone like Arnold.
Dorothy wouldn’t love Walky if he was the kind of guy who would have taken her up on this. This is precisely the kind of thing about Walky that she fell for.
Yes, she thought he was hot, and thought his dorkery was very endearing, but she loved his sense of right and wrong. And he knows this is wrong.
I am unwilling to judge Dorothy too harshly here, I know she’s in a rough spot, but I do hope this will provide a moment of clarity. Walky doesn’t look like he’s judging her, just, having to put his foot down.
I don’t know if Dorothy even thought he might say yes. Seems like she just wanted to say that she missed him, that she messed up, that she felt messed up. She wanted to get that weight off her chest. Lance the abscess of emotions that has been causing her so much pain.
That’s a fair point. Maybe this wasn’t a serious attempt to get him back… although reading her face in the last panel, I’m not totally sure. I read that as a bit of disappointment, but I’m not sure.
Or, she might be proving to herself that her own integrity which is now preventing her from following through with her original dream, does matter. Albeit in kind of a roundabout and shitty way. …Well, a secret test of character, which as a former mentor I guess she’s generally narratively entitled to do, and Walky is enough of a fellow fiction nerd to recognize that trope.
Seems unlikely that Dorothy would represent nabbing Walky from the girlfriend she set him up with as a *small* selfish action, though. Although, I suppose she really hasn’t done more than ask an implied question, even if it’s one which crosses boundaries big time.
And Walky believes in Dorothy, which means, whether or not she gets to be president, he still believes she’s a helluva lot better than that.
This makes sense to me, thanks for saying it.
It still would have been better for Dorothy to open up about all her struggles to a different friend first.
Yeah, I’ve been there, it’s like that. And I wonder if she’s going to be angry at Walky’s assumption.
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the shitty consequences of the actions we told ourselves were for the best but deep down we didn’t actually believe in them. Massive kudos to Wally, though. He plays the fool, but he’s a good egg.
Dorothy no… just no
you like the idea of walky, you like the idea of someone who doesn’t over think things
but its not good for you
good on walky for not giving into temptation
Hell, it is hardly a tempting proposition from his perspective. Which is even better – it’s not something he wishes he could do but feels morally obliged not to. He just plain does not care to do it.
I’m honestly not sure he’d be into a Dorothy who wasn’t all put-together, even without Lucy in the picture. He loved the Dorothy he could put on a pedestal, not one he is equal to. Not the real Dorothy.
So, here’s something interesting I noticed: What Dorothy’s going through right now is essentially a crisis of faith. That she will be President one day is a truth she never questioned, never doubted. There have always been naysayers – nonbelievers, if you will – but that never mattered; she believed in herself, and that was enough. But recent events have shaken that belief; she isn’t sure if the thing she believed in is good or right, and once that come into question, the very truth of it loses its certainty. I wonder if Joyce, who’s maybe a step or two further along in a similar process, might actually be able to help her unpack some things once the dust has settled.
I’d shy away from describing it as a religion, but the experience is very similar. She’s realizing the identity she’d built her life around isn’t one that fits. Joyce might be able to help, and it’d be great to see them in a friends-who-help-each-other-out dynamic. That would show progress.
I really like this analysis!
I like that way of thinking about it too. That also suggests that she might well not give up on it, like she seems to be doing now and like so many commenters think she should.
Not every crisis of faith leads to losing your faith. She might come back to it with a more mature understanding and a more mature approach.
Peep the body language.
Walky’s gone from facing her full on to turning to the side.
It firmly shows that he’s rejecting the idea of him getting back with her, but it’s also a subtle rejection of her overall.
I don’t think he’ll be coming to her for romantic advice again anytime soon, and maybe not for any advice at all.
Which is kind of a shame cuz it seems to me that, while there are multiple people in their friend GROUP, it really seems like each person in said group is only really friends with one or two others and everyone just hangs around each other.
They were one of each others’ friends in this mishmash of people, and now that connection will be strained, if not worse.
yeah, this kind of thing might utterly shatter their friendship, because it was largely based on their mutual value of integrity and their admiration/respect for the other persons’. Dorothy has now flip-flopped a *lot* on Walky; She didn’t want to get romantically involved and only wanted him as a fuck-buddy, then she said she loved him, when he loved her too she broke up with him because she was afraid he’d distract her from her goals and make her fail, rebuffed his initial attempt to get back together after their shared trauma and was very encouraging of him to move on, she set him up with someone else and was very encouraging of their relationship… And now from his point of view, someone says something disparaging about her goals and she suddenly wants to take it all back?? Of course we know how things have been building for her, but she did toy with Walky’s heart by changing the rules of their relationship and bringing love into it, and then breaking up with him. Walky might be willing to be her friend, but after she pushed him to be with Lucy I think he was very done with his romantic chapter with Dorothy. He’s now with someone who actually really wants to be with him and has never made him feel like he would bring her down, or cause her to fail, or rejected.
I get where you are coming from, but I take the turn to the side as less like a total rejection as a person and more of a “and this is my final decision on the matter”. Firm, not brooking any argument, but not turning his back on her.
I didn’t say TOTAL rejection.
Hence why I chose the word subtle.
There’s now going to be a distance between them that hasn’t been there before as it won’t be like the emotional pain he felt when she broke up with him and he didn’t want to be in her vicinity.
Now there will be this extra hesitation, this extra thought concerning Dorothy, consciously or not, on whether he should be around her, what he should say to her, what behavior is appropriate, will she bring this stuff up again, should he tell Lucy, will this make hanging out with the others awkward, does the awkwardness need to be explained, etc.
There’s some comparison to Dorothy’s position when they broke up, but only a bit, as she basically only had to be concerned with his feelings (and maybe her own, she just hid it), but he has to be concerned with three people’s feelings and his now more nuanced view of Dorothy’s character (and maybe her mental well-being considering she’s giving up on both her dream job and dream school before even experiencing a taste of either).
Feelings (and math) are where Walky struggles the most, and now he has to give his A game or someone will be hurt even more than he realizes, maybe multiple someones.
Oof, yeah, I’ve been in her corner, but now that Dororthy is implying she single-handedly created Walky’s current situation with Lucy, as though Lucy and Walky didn’t get any say in it at all, is really self-centered. Good on Walky for being kind but firm about it.
I think actually feeling all this disappointment and frustration is gonna be good for her, though. And this might help her realize a bit more that not only is it not her job to manage people’s lives, she can’t actually make people do things, anyway.
She kind of did though. Lucy’s crush existed, but Walky was oblivious and without the push Dorothy gave him, odds are they’d still be in that stasis.
saying shes sorry to him reads as like. she thinks being Lucy’s girlfriend must suck. he mentioned one problem to her now shes like, shes bad I’m good come back to me, or that she forced Walky to date Lucy??? Dotty.
so, good for Walky.
being Lucy’s boyfriend* lol partner. Spouse. Significant Other. Taco Bell Companion
I think it’s not dating Lucy that she thinks sucks, but that she’s putting him in this awkward situation where she’s now trying to break them up to get him back.
That’s a bit better! and I hope that’s more what she meant (I think you’re right) but also Dorothy stop it
The shitty situation Dorothy thinks she’s putting him in: “you have to choose between us”
The shitty situation she’s actually putting him in: “someone you thought was a trustworthy friend is trying to sabotage your relationship”
yes this
Daaaang yes this exactly!!! Dorothy has totally boyfriendzoned Walky. That “my friend is not being my friend” moment is a SHITTY realization.
Adultery or war crimes, Dorothy! THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND
OK this is my favorite comment of the night.
She can do love crimes AND war crimes, I guess
Dorothy can have a little crime, as a treat
2043, The situation room:
President Keener is languidly tracing circles around a red button with her finger while absentmindedly munching on salad with lots of cheese on it.
“Sometimes you have to do small, selfish things to stay sane, right?”
As much as I liked Dorothy and Walky as a couple, hells yeah on Walky for having integrity.
Yeah, maybe they get back together someday, but not now and not like this.
Feel bad for Dorothy but love this way more than I’m sad for her
Just because you do the right thing for the right reason doesn’t mean it won’t come back to bite you in the ass.
Daaaaaaang. Good on Walky for dealing with this situation with both integrity and compassion.
Close but no cigar, Dorothy
(cigar = dick)
Sometimes a cigar’s just a cigar.
This is not a pipe.
Where there’s smoke, there’s fire?
Fire, Walky with me.
No, there isn’t any help from clichés fro Dorothy…
“i’m at a low point and i miss you, the person i dumped” is never going to go anywhere good. Walky’s situation with Lucy is a whole other kettle of fish, but it’s his mess to wade through however he chooses. However, it should go slightly better if this conversation leads him to quit soliciting Dorothy for relationship advice. It wasn’t good ex-etiquette in the first place. And it wasn’t sensible, bc turns out Dorothy is actually pretty bad at relationships.
Maybe Lucy and Walky won’t work out in the long run (or even in the short run), but he can end things on his terms, and not for the sake of running back to the person who dumped him just bc she’s changed her mind.
Facts: Walky has had his glow-up, Joe is no longer the campus Lothario, and nature abhors a vacuum. >:3c
Okay, to all the people who saw the obvious signs, sorry for taking the “You don’t know Dorothy wants to get back together, maybe she just wants to talk…” stance. Y’all were right. As a side note, this is a great argumentative tack that Walky has taken. If he’s a good boyfriend, he should stay with Lucy, if he’s a bad boyfriend, not worth getting back together.
I mean, it doesn’t seem like he really likes Lucy all that much
he will stay with her because he is a good person and good persons in his mind stay with their partners until there’s a good reason to break up, and he is going to mark “I actually don’t like Lucy that way” as not a good reason now
I mean, he doesn’t have the same approach with her that he did with Dorothy or Amber, but I don’t think it’s out of a dislike. Like, we’ve seen he likes hanging out with her, we’ve seen he’s unambiguously attracted to her, like flirting about when they will consummate their relationship along with his visible arousal when she sucked sauce off of his shirt once, so I think the biggest issue is them moving at different speeds.
If you’re saying he’s not outright in love with her, maybe he isn’t yet, but that doesn’t mean he’s just fulfilling some obligation, either. He’s just very much not used to being the experienced party, since both Dorothy and Amber (who he technically wasn’t dating, but bare with me) had prior experience.
Hear, hear!
Maybe Walky realized that jumping dick-first into his relationships tends to make them end poorly.
while I agree his approach to the issue is very flawed and you don’t need a “good reason” to break up with someone if you’re not feeling it, “my ex felt sad and wanted me back, possibly temporarily” is definitely a bad reason
he should either resolve the difference in emotional investment or get the hell out of there for sure, just… not because dorothy is sad rn
Yeah.
There’s a big difference that can easily be missed between “You don’t need a good reason to break up” and “there are no bad reasons to break up”.
To be fair, there were obvious signs she was going to do her best to shoot down Joe and Joyce too, but she didn’t end up doing that. Sometimes the signs are misdirections.
The only person Dorothy’s put into a bad situation is herself. Yes, Dorothy and Walky are a good couple, but Dorothy dumped Walky because her grades started to slip and actually told him she felt like being with him was affecting her ability to achieve her dream. Walky accepted her decision and moved on, but now Dorothy is trying to tell him that he’s in a bad situation because of the decisions that she made.
I get away from the strip one week and everything happens at once! Wow! Good to see Anti-Joyce (alive) and Walky behaving thoughtfully, even if maybe not for the right reasons. Worried about where Dorothy is going, though. Maybe she should join the Roller Derby gang.
Ooh yes!
Til then she walks alone, she walks alone
Walky walks away //♪CAN YOU FEEL MY HEARRRRT?!♫//
This is a perfectly rational and mature way to handle things for this man child. She decided to dump him to chase something and… that is on her. It is unfair to throw herself at Walky like this.
In this storyline I can’t wait for the next strip, it’s all nail-biting tense (and I love it). We’ve been waiting for years for these relationship-plots to resolve, after being teased by Willis’ trademark gradual evolution. Back to my popcorn!
Goddamn! You go, Walky!
I dont really ship him with Lucy but if he’s willing to make it work and has moved on from Dorothy, more power to him and their relationship
Good man Walky, Dorothy is not being rational
Honestly it really was a toss up wether he would go for it or not but im glad he didnt
Good on you, Walkerton.
Huh. I was actually expecting Walky to have more conflicting emotions over this. Definitely earned some respect from me for his stance.
As for Dorothy, as much as I feel for her, part of me can’t help but smirk at the schadenfreude. NOW she knows what it’s like to love someone so much you’re willing to abandon all of your dreams and goals as long as you can be with them. She owes Danny an apology, I think.
Danny’s gonna upgrade to a Hurdy-Gurdy out of sheer schadenfreude.
She’s not going to Walky out of love, nor is she abandoning her dreams for him. Her dreams have collapsed and she’s running to him because he represents a memory of happier and more stable times.
A bit of both. I don’t think she ever really stopped loving him – just pushed him away because it was “self-sabotage”.
If she’s having doubts about her dreams and goals, that need to push him away to keep herself on track no longer applies.
Danny didn’t give up his dreams for Dorothy, he expected HER to give up her dreams to be with him. It’s very different and she was right to dump him for it.
How does his following her to the school she intended to go to, turn into him wanting her to give up her shot at being the president?
I am admittedly not remembering the early era other then her breaking up with him because *he* couldn’t get into Yale, not that he demanded she stay in Indiana. But entierly possible I missed or forgot that.
He didn’t demand, but he did expect.
The actual breakup scene happened when he said “maybe you’ll like it here and change your mind”.
And it wasn’t that he couldn’t get into Yale, it’s that he followed her to IU.
I mean in the same breath, he did say “When you’re president” so he wasn’t saying “You *must* give up your dreams.” At worst, he thought she’d give up on the idea on her own as time went on.
And… to give him some credit, she did.
His support for his teenage-at-the-time GF’s lofty dreams of presidential conquest only seemed half-assessed to us because Dotty is a Main Character this go around. “Maybe you’ll find something *other* then president you’d rather do” is… Realistic.
That isn’t what happened though. He was holding out hope she’d give up hers.
And we’ve not seen a lot of evidence that Walky is the reason she gave up on Yale. Certainly not The reason. At most he was a piece of it.
is it just me, or Dumbing of Age interactions keep getting more hinged
Thank god Raidah is definitely up to no good, can’t wait to get back to that nonsense
I dunno, I’m on board with more Danny and Sal just being cute together.
Well I mean, you could show, but I’m not sure that’d be appropriate 😀
A whole lot of people here think Walky should break up with Lucy because they don’t perceive that to be a good relationship. This is not a good way to observe a relationship you’re not involved in. It’s a toxic view that reeks of someone who has never put actual work into a relationship. Walky is where he wants to be, he can make his own calls and he just did. Respect it and move on. Dorothy needs to do the same.
It’s very different to want that from a reader point of view, where these are fictional characters, than to be another character in-universe wanting and advocating for it.
True. Readers often care more about shipping than characters actually coming into a relationship in a healthy way. But Mike is dead, so my ship has sank.
Walky jumped dick-first into both of his other relationships and they ended in fireballs, maybe he’s just trying to go a different way instead of hoping the sex is good enough to carry the rest of the relationship.
“jumped dick-first” is a weird way to describe his relationship with Amber, where as far as we know, they never actually fucked. Or even with Dorothy it was much longer before they had sex than it’s been so far with Lucy.
Regardless of whether they had penetrative sex, he was *definitely* thinking with his dick first and they definitely got up to some sex acts pretty early on.
He obliterated his relationship with Amber by being a flippant smartass. I think they might still be together if he hadn’t made light of Mike’s unalive-ed-ness.
To be fair, that IS the most appropriate way of honouring Mike.
There is another way, but Stacy wasn’t there at the time.
And who carries around nickels thse days?
Mike did
He obliterated his relationship with Amber by being traumatized by Mike’s death in an incompatible way.
Coping with Mike’s death in an incompatible way, yes.
I believe that’s called character growth.
Aaaand we’re back on the relationship thing. Talk about why you’ve concluded as you have concerning your goals and objectives. You may learn something. I know it’s all tangled up together, but unpick one thread at a time.
Attaboy, Walky. Use some of that maturity and responsibility she taught you!
Well done, Walky. You’re true North.
Walky just straight up spitting truth in every single panel he speaks in today. Which is weird, for Walky, but I’ll take it.
Give this king a crown!!
Damn, Walky is killin’ it today!
Swing and a miss, better luck next time dotty, walky ain’t no cheater. King shit
Dorothy had this coming and to be quite frank it’s kind of delicious. I don’t hate her, but I think she’s been an extremely selfish and self-important person and now that she’s going through this rare moment of self-doubt she’s flailing and trying to go back to familiar territory (read: being in a relationship that was fundamentally unequal in her perceived favor) and is finding out that no, she can’t do her usual thing anymore.
Poor Dotty. Points to hot boy Walky though.
Oh interesting, so Walky does love Lucy
That’s not necessarily the case, but I hope this is the nail in the coffin for team “Walky has no actual interest in Lucy and their breakup is inevitable”. He clearly likes her a lot and cares about their relationship, even if it’s not yet at the stage he can honestly call it “love”.
Just because he didn’t instantly go into a stupor when they met…
God, right?
He’s not instantly puppy dogging her every step or acting like being treated as an only-to-be-used-in-an-emergency ‘boyfriend’ was the best thing since the beefy supreme burrito, he *must* not give a shit about Lucy.
Maybe he’s grown since his last two relationships crash and burned.
Last two? Who was the other besides Dorothy? Did I miss one?
Oh wait… That’s right, Amber. Pardon the brain fart.
I think he wants to do right by her, and not hurt her… whether or not he has feelings for her that are anywhere near the same intensity (or kind) as the thirst she has for him is another matter.
I think it’s very clear that his feelings, both sexual and romantic, are not as intense as Lucy’s, but there’s solid evidence that they’re characteristically similar.
i feel a little dumb, what does oblique mean?? i tried to look it up but i still dont understand
In this context, it simply means “not direct”. He had only implied before that he wasn’t going to get back together with Dorothy so he wanted to make it more clear.
It has a few definitions, the one that’s being used in this context essentially would be “not straightforward.”
I can’t tell if that was intentional or not.
Walky is a good guy.
He’s a little confused as to how he truly feels about Lucy (does he love her, or is actually feeling loved leaving him unsure how to react), but he wants to see it through properly.
Maybe it will work out, maybe it won’t, but he’s not gonna dump Lucy because his Ex regrets leaving him.
So my question is, was Dorothy actually making a pass at Walky, or was she just trying to honestly communicate her emotions?
She was definitely making a pass. She is upset to see walky moving on, she is regretting breaking up with him and is holding onto him as the one part of her life that made sense. She was hoping she could convince him to give her another try and that he’d leave Lucy for her.
She was definitely just trying to honestly communicate her emotions. If she was making a pass, she would have asked him to come back to her.
and it doesn’t help that Walky won’t give her a chance to finish articulating what she is trying to say without some kind of interjection.
My read was a little of both, with some plausible deniability mixed in.
I think that she does want to get back together with Walky, but doesn’t want to actually ask him to leave Lucy for her. She wants him to want to leave Lucy for her. To pick her so they can be together again.
But I also believe that she’s partly just wanting to be honest with herself and someone she loves about how she’s feeling right now, and doesn’t yet feel like Joyce is a safe person to talk to about Yale, and Walky is really the person she seems to be closest to besides Joyce.
communicating her emotions that she desires he stop being with Lucy and be with her again.
Like 10-15 minutes before, she shows up and says, “I’m here because I couldn’t find Joyce so she could stop me.”
In yesterday’s strip, when Walky says he’s not getting back together with her, and gives a reason, she says his reason is invalid. In today’s strip she says she is, at that very moment, putting him in a shitty situation. Several times he’s said he’s not getting back together with her, and she’s not once said anything to indicate he was misunderstanding what she’s asking.
I don’t think it’s ambiguous anymore.
my boy came through 🙂
Loyalty based in integrity. Good on him.
Getting rejected by Walky might be Dorothy’s curse.
oh dotty… 🙁 i’m sorry honey but how else did you think this would go?
It may be a case of she had to try. She called their relationship the time she was the happiest.
I want to give Dorothy a hug so bad.
Walky is making the right choice in this strip I think.