FUCK, not only did I forget to change my “anachronistic” profile, my e-mail is being a shit and NOT receiving the 2FA e-mails from Gravatar, so now it’s permanently “timely”
As far as I can recall neither of them have been diagnosed at all. Joyce was told “that’s something you should look into” by an optometrist, and Dina’s parents never found a psychiatrist who didn’t insist everything about her was explained by being non-white.
They both clearly are, but they’ve not been diagnosed.
The general practitioner at the medical center said Joyce reminded her of her Autistic daughter, and gave her a referral to explore that further. (That was the visit for her crippling menstrual pain, for which she was prescribed birth control.)
Opus did specify these United States. In any of the other United Stateses, heterosexuality is more or less gone by now. Sure, you get a few straight people now and then, they’re not unheard of, but they just aren’t as much of a focus anymore. In a majority-queer nation, being straight isn’t so confusing, since they’ve basically gotten a handle on how it works. These United States are still mainly hetero, so we have a lot more confusion and difference of opinion on how to handle it. We’ll get there eventually, I think.
Yeah, he spent a lot of time, and Walky amounts of effort, trying not to get too emotionally attached. But if you do that, HOO BOY do you fall in love hard, once you can’t take it anymore.
He needs to get used to, and digest, that this is what being in a real relationship involves-that is, lots and lots of confusion during the other 22 hours you’re not getting sleep…wait, my last experience is not a good example. Just roll with it, Joe, and know she’s trying to express something without the functional vocabulary to do so.
willis is really nailing what it’s like to be young and queer because “you are perfect because you are so autistic and gay” is definitely a sentence i could say to like half the people i know
see it’s funny because Dina basically is written with no faults and never gets to make any major mistakes sometimes does just feel like kind of a mascot for autistic lesbians
Sometimes people are just chill, having 1 in contrast to like 10 trash fire it’s not a big deal. And personally I quite enjoy an autistic character that is portrayed as emotionally mature.
I literally knew someone like Dina in college. I don’t think she’s particularly unrealistic – she has flaws, she has insecurities, she just doesn’t talk about them for the most part. She’s mentioned before her own insecurities regarding her feelings with Becky all of once – it never got resolved that we could see. Becky herself seems like she’s still sensing something, it’s very possible that something’s building under the surface that we just don’t see because of how relatively little we see of them now.
When I say “unrealistic,” I mean as in – if this character is meant to be similar to how some people are, and the charge is that they don’t have character – well, wouldn’t it be weird to suggest that a character that takes notes from how some people are in real life isn’t an actual character?
Not to argue against the Dina is perfect narrative, but I think she does make mistakes and have flaws. She’s just quick to mitigate or correct them. Like when she opened the door for Blaine despite Amber telling her how abusive and dangerous he was. She realized that mistake and corrected her behavior in response to the next dangerous dad she met.
Recognizing a mistake and then avoiding the behavior that caused it?? What, are we expected to believe a character learned something? When she’s surrounded by other characters who are also constantly doing that?
Her mistakes just aren’t that major. Well, I mean, there was that bank vault thing, but they navigated out of that without incident. The next biggest mistake, I would say, would be not more strongly advocating Blaine not come into their dorm room and not giving Amber a sufficient heads up, which was a long time ago.
A lot of what might be considered her “faults” are part of her being autistic, and luckily she seems to be around supportive people when it comes to navigating that. But she also just doesn’t freak out externally too much when she makes a mistake, which is where a lot of the drama for other characters might show up.
I also think Joyce in particular is a huge weak spot for Dina, as their opinions of each other are kind of mirrored. Dina has shown the same amount of frustration and intolerance of Joyce’s former religious beliefs as Joyce had towards her facts and logic. She’s even flat out been jealous of Joyce and the romantic jealousy and affection Becky still has for her. These have never been depicted as flattering aspects of Dina’s character, just relatable ones.
Dina is in the very fortunate position for a comedy character where she can just make jokes about dinosaurs and not have to do anything particularly embarrassing to get a funny reaction.
Also she had it really rough in the original series so I think the author decided to go easy on her in this one.
I’ve been binging the Psych series with my 10 year old, and can’t hear this phrase in my head except in Shawn’s voice. usually followed by Gus doing that tsk thing that evolved so wonderfully.
Hard disagree. Dina is not perfect. To the readership perhaps, for being such an excellent partner to Becky. But she started out as a shrinking violet who hides behind doors. Someone who is not good at acknowledging or interacting with other people. And as much as people like her deserve compassion and kindness, they can be frustrating to interact with in real life. I was certainly annoyed with her before I warmed up to her.
lmao the replies this got were WILD and ranged from normal arguments to some incredibly mean implications about my character. y’all need to chill ten thousand degrees for a bit.
shoutout, though, to the “Dina has flaws, they just aren’t major or plot-relevant or compelling enough to justify Dina getting her own character arc” argument, which is a very questionable take but is at least not conflating me with dudebros or implying I have a crush on her.
Anyways, tangentially-related, I strongly recommend verilybongoie’s video “Good LGBT Representation is Boring”.
I find Dina to be a compelling character. I think she’s learned and grown over the course of the comic. I don’t think she’s as overt about it as other characters, which I really relate to as someone who is also very reserved and sometimes overlooked.
I agree pure bb good queers aren’t ideal representation, but both don’t think that’s Dina and think having “good” queer characters is more an issue in works where those are the only queer characters. This comic is full of disaster queers and neurodivergents.
for what it’s worth, agreed that a dina-centric character arc that explored her growth sounds great, but it’s hard for me to imagine what that would even look like because she’s pretty much on top of her shit. (which, good for her. as a fellow autistic asian gay, wish i was this mature in college lmao)
Dina’s insecurity about Becky was originally foreshadowed a lot more like it was going to be a big thing, and then it kind of dried up into a very minor background quirk at most. I would love to see that develop into something!
Like, we haven’t really seen if Dina gets RSD, but I think RSD is one of the things that really debunks the “unflappable autistic” Positive Stereotype that a lot of works employ nowadays. Dina does have her shit together, but so did Dorothy, and we’ve had multiple storylines now focusing on how Dorothy’s attempt to have her shit together didn’t negate her still being a dumbass teenager.
I really appreciate this comment really engaging with the main point I was making, and as smartass as I sound about a lot of this, I would genuinely just love to see a Dina storyline that gives her something to really struggle and grow with. To me, that’s good representation: A dynamic character who gets to engage with the core premise of the comic, “college kids make dumb mistakes, especially the ones who think they’re too smart for that, unless they’re Carla”.
It really seems you mistake you not being able to engage with the character with something that is wrong with her writting and not just your personal preference.
Wow, I was not expecting Joyce to immediately apologize, and realize the things she said are what make Dina who she is, and aren’t to be mocked, or put down for.
Like, Joyce understands that Jocelyne might feel more comfortable coming out first to Becky and Dina, as they are also part of the LGBTQIA2+ community, whereas Joyce does not yet recognize that part of herself.
So being gay (or gay/demi/ace/etc.) makes Dina and Becky “perfect” members of Joyce’s friend group for Jocelyne to start opening up to.
I just don’t get where the autism comes in, though. Like, is Joyce assuming that Dina doesn’t accidentally misgender because Joyce is stereotyping Dina’s autism as helping Dina to learn structured rules and live by them?
So here’s one thing: for some people (me, for example), being autistic is awesome too.
I don’t think the gay and autistic comments were about how Joce told Dina before Joyce. I think some of it might be Joyce’s frustration around the idea of Dina figuring out these things about *herself* first (in relation to Joyce), but more, I think she’s lashing out because she she’s upset. And some of the ways Dina approaches things might be ways she wishes she could approach things, but different autistic brains can be very different, so maybe some of that too.
Oh, yes, that makes lots of sense. Thank you, Yumi!
And I apologize, truly: I did NOT mean to imply that autism was any less awesome than being gay. I just meant that Joyce might be able to understand the awesome parts of gay spectra more than she might yet understand the awesome parts of autism spectra.
I was just trying to figure out what Joyce in particular meant by that.
I did not intend any disrespect. I am truly sorry that my words came out the wrong way.
Personally, being late-identified autistic there’s a lot of emotions that aren’t so pleasant along with the joy of figuring out that I was never “built wrong” or “bad at being human”. I’m definitely mapping some of my experiences onto Joyce here, but I had a year of grieving and still hold a lot of resentment and anger (mostly at the mental health system, but sometimes it gets misplaced) because I spent so long thinking I was broken, then figuring out how to exist in a way that works for me and accepting that I won’t have the life that i always wanted for myself.
Throw in a couple of big reveals, a touch of jealousy, a dose of insecurity and a dash of fear of rejection (or feeling not-enoughness) and I can understand why Joyce might be a teenie-weenie bit dysregulated.
“bad at being human”
Heh, I think that about myself regularly, but I don’t consider it a bad thing. Humans are horrible beings (at least potentially, definitely not always) so being bad at that is at worst morally neutral. It is just a thing I am in specific moments like tired or sad, and sometimes it feels like something permanent, like feeling tired… or sad. Huh, I really thought I would have different things to put there. Ah well.
There’s a lot of different feelings and experiences, and that’s totally fair. I am also a later-identified autistic, having received my diagnosis earlier this year. I TOTALLY get that feeling of “bad at being human”– I felt that all the time. I’d phrase it in ways like, “I do a terrible impression of a human and would like to stop.” My experience of learning that I’m autistic has been very positive for me, though there are various stresses and sadnesses with it. It’s been exciting for me to learn about in much the same way that recognizing my queerness was exciting; not everyone has positive or predominantly positive experiences of either of these things. But some do!
Also, very much hear you on the “thinking I was broken”; when my therapist suggested I might seek a neuropsych eval, it was like, “Really? Like, you think I might be something other than broken?”
Absolutely understandable/relatable. +1 on the gratitude to everyone who’s wanted to share.It’s really nice to see the solidarity that forms out of it!
After two years of a late diagnosis in my mid-thirties, I’m still working on unraveling my internalized ableism. I’m doing better! But fuck, it’s hard! The first time I was suggested as an adult that my (also late diagnosed) ADHD def came with a side of ASD I went again through The Grief: It hurt to know life could’ve been better if I had gotten the right tools/better support. I wasn’t kind to myself during this. But Yumi is right!! My entire group of friends is Queer AND Neurodivergent. Overwhelmed after getting my diagnosis, Feeling Unidentifiable Things; I went to tell them, and they were like “YAY CONGRATULATIONS, WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!” It was beautiful, truly ;ww;
(Nowadays, my main struggle is RSD. I may put too much theatre in the way I word things, and sometimes they come out Wrong. Overexplaining doesn’t fix it! Getting that “–” from The Sims on real life is awful; but hurting other people is the worst |’DD)
Replying here because it won’t let me higher in the other thread! :’33
RSD, or Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria is a negative, disregulated emotional reaction common in ADHD and ASD to perceived societal rejection. It has some overlap with social anxiety; but a person with RSD may not feel anxious about an interaction until it goes badly. They have overly strict standards of themselves, and their self-esteem depends a lot on how they’re perceived. Criticism fucks them up, and so does exclusion/ostracism. They hyperfocus on the interaction, ruminate, the shame/guilt/sadness they’re left feeling is disproportionate and long-lasting to the point it can be physically felt. And sometimes just to not feel even worse in the future, they can impulsively self-sabotage relationships.
All fun stuff. It’s not in the DSM5 as a disorder, rather, it’s more of a collection of symptoms that have a neurological cause.
Or should it have read:
*plays that one episode of MBMBaM where they sang the Jurassic Park theme with the lyrics “We are dinosaurs” over and over on hacked muzak*?
You’d think there would be searchable transcripts online for this kind of thing, but I couldn’t find them. It lives on in my brain every time anyone speaks of dinosaurs or Jurassic Park/World, anyway.
Yes, that makes sense. Like Joyce is saying,
“You are perfect, because you are YOU.”
“You are perfect exactly the way you are, because of who you are.”
It’s less that autism is related to perfection, and more that Joyce is saying it because it’s part of who Dina is. She’s saying Dina is perfect just how she is because her traits make up who Dina is.
Is Dina perfect for most things? No; nobody is. Is Dina perfect girlfriend for supporting Becky and spending time with her? Absolutely.
In Panel 1, she’s yelling at Dina because she’s mad. “Oh, you’re so perfect, cuz you’re…”
And then, well, what insults can she use? Once upon a time, she’d have said “You’re an evilustionist,” but now she’s started to admit that as well.
So what else does she know? Dina’s gay (well, Dina’s female-shaped and dating a female-shaped person, so by Joyce’s current standards that means…), and Dina’s autistic (based on what Dina herself has said). Two things that are societally not great, so make valid insults.
“Oh, you’re so PERFECT” — you must be, after all, Becky loves you. Because — um, autism and gayness.
In a concentrated form, this is kind of like Becky’s overall reaction to Dorothy.
But then, Joyce being Joyce, she feels bad, and apologizes, using those same two things she instinctively used as insults as compliments.
Also I imagine spending time around Becky has exposed her to the current use of gay to mean good or flawless. She’s probably taking it in the spirit it’s intended, even if it may not be entirely correct.
I’m more referring to her “not being concerned with gender presentation of partners” or however she put it. Whether I’m talking about sex, romance, or both I hadn’t actually been considering.
I feel like she would want to be exact and scientific about it, but that’s just my take on the character in this moment. And of all the labels she or we could attach to her the only one I can think to claim for myself is autistic, so perhaps I’m not the best authority on the whole mess.
It’s possible she’s not sure on the details of her orientation herself– she seem open to ongoing questioning– and so she’s fine with what she (and many) views as a general term.
I honestly don’t even remember it. I just know Willis has said that sexuality for the characters is the same across universes, and Dina has had romantic interactions with guys in Willis’ other work. (Which I have never read.)
In universe, the strip Dana linked is the best evidence of it, I think.
Dina doesn’t seem particularly attracted to or repulsed by men or women; it’s Madame Science who she lusts for. Whosoever dons the mantle of science is the one who inspires the Pants Euphoria.
That’s not entirely a joke. Most of what would make me think she’s gray asexual is what she said *before* she and Becky figured out what got her going, and she’s been kinda active since. I kinda thought she had a sapiosexual thing going, except… scientiasexual? I dunno.
I honestly love this as an autistic asexual lesbian(and yes, I do identify as gay too). Especially since… Dina resented Joyce for being so easily identified as autistic when Dina hasn’t been diagnose despite much effort. This is such a validating thing to say in that context.
I remember the moment i had the realization that just because someone was queer didn’t mean i had to *like* them. I think that was way past college hahaha. as a person who grew up in a conservative church this is so relatable, because when you’re learning about a whole new part of the world sometimes you start to just overdo it and feel bad about not being queer enough, or start to kind of put people on a pedestal just because they part of a minority, without recognizing that that’s also a form of putting people in boxes rather than looking at them as people. this really hits the nail on the head. Ouch.
Took me even longer to realize that just because someone was the only queer in the vicinity, I didn’t have to sleep with them or try to get them to sleep with me.
Sarah, I think, is saying the same things with the same intent to make it seem like she’s more cheerful and pleasant.
Joyce used the different tone and expression to show that her intent was actually different.
Or more simply, Sarah’s faking it, Joyce means it.
Being the kind of autistic with wild emotional dysregulation can suck. Being the kind of autistic with wild emotional dysregulation who is friends with auties who don’t /appear/ to have wild emotional dysregulation which feels like *I’m not even good enough compared to you* sucks harder
I just wanna make a comment to say that I find the reaction of some commenters in the past few strips to be… kinda weird. Namely, the ones who were upset that Dina and Becky knew before Joyce. Not just ‘aw I wish we’d seen that’, I saw a couple that did say that it was wrong that Joyce wasn’t told first. Joyce is allowed to feel some type of way about that, but acting like not telling her sister is a moral failing of some kind…
People aren’t beholden to knowing things about others. Not even family. I say this as a non-binary biromantic asexual who is barely out to anyone in my family. My close friends know. My father knows. Two of my cousins (one of which is bi) knows. That is it. Because I live in the South. Because the vast majority of the people in my extended family are racist, homophobic, and a whole lot of other nasty things. It literally isn’t safe for me to tell some of these people these things. I’ve gone no-contact with almost all of them, but I still have my grandmother that I’m in contact with. She knows very little about me, and that’s her own damn fault.
We still don’t know how it is that Hank knows about Joss. Joyce is still new to being an ally and even if Joss knew she was cool with Becky, there was still a chance that Joyce could have been the type to think “gays, they’re okay, but the trans people? Oh no!”. What matters is that Joss is telling her sister now, and Joyce is doing a great job of accepting her sister. It isn’t wrong of Joss to have not told her sooner, or that she told other people sooner. It is Joss’ choice when and who she tells. It needs to be respected.
Yeah, it’s pretty clear Jocelyne had no idea whether Joyce would be safe to tell or not, and her “I need to tell you something important before you hear it from Dad” sounds like she feels backed into a corner with no option but to tell Joyce at this point. We as the audience know Joyce would be okay, but she had no way of knowing that.
The last time she saw them, Joyce was still much more conflicted about severing ties with the churchgoers than Becky was. (Becky was ready to write the whole town off, except for Joyce, even before the congregation bailed her father out of jail.)
For me, it’s mostly that we didn’t see it, but that also ties into us not knowing why Jocelyne told Becky first. How did she know to trust Becky? Sure, Becky’s gay, but not all lesbians are cool with trans people any more than all straights who are okay with gay people are.
And while part of it could be Joyce’s known issues with lying, particularly to authority figures, does Jocelyne really know Becky well enough to see past the surface flamboyance to know she really can and will keep secrets?
And then there’s Dina, who’s even more of a surprise, since as far as we knew she’d never even talked to Jocelyne before this visit.
My honest guess is that Jocelyne probably reached out to Becky because she knows damned well that Becky could have potentially needed Queer Friend Support, so her and Becky probably talk sometimes…about queer adult stuff…when that happens, one thing tends to lead to another, because being a young queer is often the very experience of being desperate for somebody queer to talk to.
I think it’s easy to sympathize with Joyce’s frustration here. It kind of feels like she’s always the last to know anything even her own sister’s existence. Jocelyne by no means is obligated to reveal her gender identity to Joyce first that is her right to choose who to reveal herself to, but this has become a pattern among Joyce’s close friends and family. It feels like she hasn’t earned their trust yet, or that they have to tiptoe around these subjects with her as if she were a child. In a way the same infantilization Dina was subjected to.
I agree about sympathizing with Joyce’s frustration. I am also often the last to know anything because no one seems to trust me. But I do not think it is infantilization to refuse to share with Joyce. Joyce does demonstrate some rigidity and she is know for extreme reactions (Joyce face), so people are reasonably hesitant to share difficult information with her.
Also, I think part of it might be that Jocelyne might have in particular been afraid of Joyce’s rejection. Becky has experience with the dangers of being outed as LGBTQ+ in her community, so even if she maybe does not respect/understand transgender people, she would hopefully know that outing Jocelyne could put her in danger and take keeping her secret seriously. And while rejection from Becky might be unpleasant, rejection from Jocelyne’s little sister may be far more devastating. And Jocelyne can have trouble gauging how much progress Joyce has made. For all she knows, coming out to Joyce sooner could have led to Joyce telling the rest of her family and causing trouble for Jocelyne. It makes some sense for Jocelyne to inform people like Dina and Ethan before Joyce because they are themselves queer, and neither of them is actually part of her family or community. Not wanting to tell Joyce about this does not necessarily have anything to do with treating her like a child.
When I was coming out to my family, my older brother was the last person I told. He was always more “masculine” than me, and I thought he might be homophobic. Before I came out to him, I came out to his wife (my sister in law) first, and asked her if he would be upset with me, she said “of course not”. Years later I found out that he used to defend me from homophobic bullies in middle school (I had no idea).
He told me how hurt he was that I told him last, and also that I just assumed he was homophobic based on stereotypes. I regret telling him last and not giving him more credit.
If I were Joyce’s situation I’d also feel very hurt by my sister coming out to a stranger before me.
Like I said, I think Joyce is allowed to feel upset about not being told. I acknowledge that your brother felt bad and that you regret telling him last. Completely respect these things. My issue is in people acting like being careful about who you come out to is wrong.
I think that, considering the information you had available at the time, it’s understandable why you hesitated to tell your brother. I also again acknowledge that this is now a regret for you. Both of these things can be okay and correct. I am also glad for you that you had such a supportive older brother.
As another alternative, she could scream at everyone.
Jocelyne isn’t even being included right now. That’s a little trans-exclusionary, Joyce. You’re not some kinda phobe, are you, Joyce? What, your sister doesn’t get to be part of the conversation, Joyce??
It is ACTUALLY fun that Dina accepts this with an amount of grace I’ve rarely seen among the ACTUALLY privileged (among whom my cishetwhiteman ass is numbered).
Right, Joyce’s apology rewrote their world lines, the yelling never happened.
People say “forgive and forget” but that isn’t how it actually works. We can choose to remember the healing more readily than we remember the wounding.
I’m glad that Joyce did her best to make things right, and that Dina seems to accept that.
Meh, its all same of a muchness. I live in a very liberal progressive environment, and queer/trans neurodivergent kids are considered the most precious angels ever by everybody with a DFL pin “Disclaimer I am DFL” but if you have EXACTLY the same traits but are old, you cease to be “special” and are simply a weirdo. (and a deeply suspicious one at that) I’m sorry I won’t live long enough to see how this pans out for them when they are not the new stripe of supported and popular anymore. There is going to be a lot of broken people. I wish them luck.
Really, I think nothing that is said here should be considered odd, because nearly everything anyone says here, is similarly odd. Same levels, just different directions.
“It doesn’t mean I want to be “with” her, it means I want to be her, which is a separate, distinct feeling that’s impossible to confuse with the other.” -Joyce
Honestly i don’t hate this at all.
Is it bad to snap at people? Yes.
But it’s a big thing if you are able to recognize when you reacted badly, and do it over again, but better.
A Youtuber i love (Tori Phantom) does a Reverse method with her kids, where she asks them: “Would you like another try at reacting?” and then they do a silly reverse move and then react more calmly to the situation that made them snap before. This is SO valuable.
Realizing you made a mistake is the first step. Trying out a new way how to handle the same situation is a learning experience super valuable to do. I love seeing Joyce owning her shit, and practicing better ways like that <3
I really love this strip, tbh. It’s relatable. It’s really nice to see Dina reacting with what seems more grace than bewilderment: Waiting to see if Joyce, who’s proven to be a character who reliably wants to be kind and works on herself, realizes what the hell she said and backtracks. They _had_ talked about being kinder to each other, and they’ve kept this up!
Turning around “autistic and gay” into a genuine compliment feels like a big step for Joyce somehow.
(Legitimately, I like this for Joyce. She pulls back in fast, and its a subject it makes sense to be wound up about. It would hurt to know a friend of yours knew what was up with your own sister first, even if it’s totally rational why things happened how they did. Not having been someone your sister could trust, even if its for reasons that were out of your hands (your upbringing you’re pretty damn fresh from), would hurt. Good recovery, joyce.)
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gAy for effort
FUCK, not only did I forget to change my “anachronistic” profile, my e-mail is being a shit and NOT receiving the 2FA e-mails from Gravatar, so now it’s permanently “timely”
gotta create a new account NOW
Well that’s much better than a straight A
ba dum TSSSSS!
+1!
Shortpacked! and/or Dina is Totally Autistic and Gay!
This harkens back to Dina being pissed about Joyce getting diagnosed so quick, when it took years for Dina to get diagnosed.
As far as I can recall neither of them have been diagnosed at all. Joyce was told “that’s something you should look into” by an optometrist, and Dina’s parents never found a psychiatrist who didn’t insist everything about her was explained by being non-white.
They both clearly are, but they’ve not been diagnosed.
The general practitioner at the medical center said Joyce reminded her of her Autistic daughter, and gave her a referral to explore that further. (That was the visit for her crippling menstrual pain, for which she was prescribed birth control.)
https://www.dumbingofage.com/autism/
Oops, yes, that explains why I couldn’t find it in the optometrist storyline and makes a lot more sense.
aaaaawwwwwwweeeee <3
you may never surpass the Empress of Evolution yourself Joyce,
but as for being (and embracing) your autism AND gayness, you're already halfway there! ^^ <3
*plays “99” by Mob Psycho 100 Choir on hacked muzak*
loving joe’s little questioning expression at the end there. it’s funny AND adorable!
Joe: ”So… To be perfect I have to be gay? What?”
Sorry Joe, you can’t choose your sexual orientation. If you could, we’d all be perfect and gay.
Stupid , gay, autistic comic!….That’s not fair. I promised to be kinder to the gay, autistic media I consume.
Dumbing of Age Book 15: So Autistic and So Gay
Love Joe genuine puzzlement in that last panel. Yeah this is the woman you love man.
Yep, things sometimes get confusing. That’s life in these United States!
I don’t think the US in particular has relevance here lol
Opus did specify these United States. In any of the other United Stateses, heterosexuality is more or less gone by now. Sure, you get a few straight people now and then, they’re not unheard of, but they just aren’t as much of a focus anymore. In a majority-queer nation, being straight isn’t so confusing, since they’ve basically gotten a handle on how it works. These United States are still mainly hetero, so we have a lot more confusion and difference of opinion on how to handle it. We’ll get there eventually, I think.
Not a regular Reader’s Digest reader, eh?
Demonstrating that she’ll occasionally screw up or come across wrong in the moment, but will make it right and clarify in the end.
Okay, if Joe is at the “love” stage at this point then he’s Danny levels of attachment disorderr.
He’s been gradually falling for Joyce for months.
Yeah, he spent a lot of time, and Walky amounts of effort, trying not to get too emotionally attached. But if you do that, HOO BOY do you fall in love hard, once you can’t take it anymore.
He needs to get used to, and digest, that this is what being in a real relationship involves-that is, lots and lots of confusion during the other 22 hours you’re not getting sleep…wait, my last experience is not a good example. Just roll with it, Joe, and know she’s trying to express something without the functional vocabulary to do so.
Well Joyce also thinks Dorothy is perfect.
Dorothy is autistic and gay??
I mean, she’s almost certainly at *least* one of those
she is at least one of those, and I am riding this ship… wait, is that expression right? ah who cares drink up me hearties yo ho! ~<3
For some reason “riding this ship” recalled Slim Pickens as Major Kong, sitting astride the falling H-bomb llike a bull rider….
There are many ways to be perfect.
Stupid sexy Dorothy.
Feel’s like I’m wearin
Pretty sure she’s autistic and bi.
Autistic amd queer, because she was in a relationship with Danny, then Walky, then Walky again, and now maybe Joyce?
Autistic, yes. Queer, yes. And totally perfect(ionist).
A perfect cinnamon roll need not be the same as a perfect utahraptor. But yes.
now she’s REALLY starting to get it
willis is really nailing what it’s like to be young and queer because “you are perfect because you are so autistic and gay” is definitely a sentence i could say to like half the people i know
Hahaha same
This is def one of the more bizarre interactions in recent memory
Yup
That’s interesting, this one actually makes pretty much perfect sense to me
heh, never thought I’d ever see a title with “stupid”, “perfect” AND “Dina”
well played, Damn You Willis!!!! ^^
I wonder how much of this Jocelyne witnessed
Pretty sure she’s just off panel.
see it’s funny because Dina basically is written with no faults and never gets to make any major mistakes sometimes does just feel like kind of a mascot for autistic lesbians
It’s also funny in a less snarky way because Joyce is autistic and gay
It’s called staying in your lane, and we all should follow her example.
This is supposed to be a comic about college kids making dumb mistakes 😭
Sometimes people are just chill, having 1 in contrast to like 10 trash fire it’s not a big deal. And personally I quite enjoy an autistic character that is portrayed as emotionally mature.
I would have enjoyed Dina getting to be a character!
Good for you, she is!
What a ridiculous thing to say.
I literally knew someone like Dina in college. I don’t think she’s particularly unrealistic – she has flaws, she has insecurities, she just doesn’t talk about them for the most part. She’s mentioned before her own insecurities regarding her feelings with Becky all of once – it never got resolved that we could see. Becky herself seems like she’s still sensing something, it’s very possible that something’s building under the surface that we just don’t see because of how relatively little we see of them now.
“Unrealistic” is not really the charge being levied here…
When I say “unrealistic,” I mean as in – if this character is meant to be similar to how some people are, and the charge is that they don’t have character – well, wouldn’t it be weird to suggest that a character that takes notes from how some people are in real life isn’t an actual character?
She IS a character
an autistic character who for once isn’t a stereotype from the 80s
dino digga like a breath of fresh air x9001, and much more
She is lmao, she’s just not the kind of character you like. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes things are for other people.
Someone doesn’t have to be a trash fire to be a full character. Sometimes people’s problems are subtle, well-hidden, and/or not overwhelming.
Not to argue against the Dina is perfect narrative, but I think she does make mistakes and have flaws. She’s just quick to mitigate or correct them. Like when she opened the door for Blaine despite Amber telling her how abusive and dangerous he was. She realized that mistake and corrected her behavior in response to the next dangerous dad she met.
Recognizing a mistake and then avoiding the behavior that caused it?? What, are we expected to believe a character learned something? When she’s surrounded by other characters who are also constantly doing that?
Totally unbelievable.
I’m afraid we have no choice but to diagnose her with Mary Sue
I can already hear the angry dude bros coming to complain
Also those flaws and mistakes generally aren’t the focal point for dramatic storylines because Dina is usually in a supporting role.
this
the whole “Mary Sue” vs “Flawed” shit is a binary which like many others is counterproductive
ALL the cast make mistakes, they all just learn from them at varying *speeds*
Her mistakes just aren’t that major. Well, I mean, there was that bank vault thing, but they navigated out of that without incident. The next biggest mistake, I would say, would be not more strongly advocating Blaine not come into their dorm room and not giving Amber a sufficient heads up, which was a long time ago.
A lot of what might be considered her “faults” are part of her being autistic, and luckily she seems to be around supportive people when it comes to navigating that. But she also just doesn’t freak out externally too much when she makes a mistake, which is where a lot of the drama for other characters might show up.
Sh is literally just chill.
I also think Joyce in particular is a huge weak spot for Dina, as their opinions of each other are kind of mirrored. Dina has shown the same amount of frustration and intolerance of Joyce’s former religious beliefs as Joyce had towards her facts and logic. She’s even flat out been jealous of Joyce and the romantic jealousy and affection Becky still has for her. These have never been depicted as flattering aspects of Dina’s character, just relatable ones.
Dina is in the very fortunate position for a comedy character where she can just make jokes about dinosaurs and not have to do anything particularly embarrassing to get a funny reaction.
Also she had it really rough in the original series so I think the author decided to go easy on her in this one.
Wait for it.
she’s gonna get trucked, by the ghost of mike.
Not if Penny’s dad has anything to say about it.
This is the best reply I got.
I’ve been binging the Psych series with my 10 year old, and can’t hear this phrase in my head except in Shawn’s voice. usually followed by Gus doing that tsk thing that evolved so wonderfully.
“She’s kind of short, but she’s okay.”
Dina did her character flaw time in the Walkyverse, she can have a little not-really-anything-like-Walkyverse-Dina-but-still-neato as a treat
Hard disagree. Dina is not perfect. To the readership perhaps, for being such an excellent partner to Becky. But she started out as a shrinking violet who hides behind doors. Someone who is not good at acknowledging or interacting with other people. And as much as people like her deserve compassion and kindness, they can be frustrating to interact with in real life. I was certainly annoyed with her before I warmed up to her.
No faults? Are you in love with her and putting her on a pedestal? Because she most definitely has faults.
lmao the replies this got were WILD and ranged from normal arguments to some incredibly mean implications about my character. y’all need to chill ten thousand degrees for a bit.
shoutout, though, to the “Dina has flaws, they just aren’t major or plot-relevant
or compellingenough to justify Dina getting her own character arc” argument, which is a very questionable take but is at least not conflating me with dudebros or implying I have a crush on her.Anyways, tangentially-related, I strongly recommend verilybongoie’s video “Good LGBT Representation is Boring”.
how about this then huh
does this appease you, autocensor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cR3b2Gblq0
that’s better. dont ever cross me again
I find Dina to be a compelling character. I think she’s learned and grown over the course of the comic. I don’t think she’s as overt about it as other characters, which I really relate to as someone who is also very reserved and sometimes overlooked.
I agree pure bb good queers aren’t ideal representation, but both don’t think that’s Dina and think having “good” queer characters is more an issue in works where those are the only queer characters. This comic is full of disaster queers and neurodivergents.
Exactly!
for what it’s worth, agreed that a dina-centric character arc that explored her growth sounds great, but it’s hard for me to imagine what that would even look like because she’s pretty much on top of her shit. (which, good for her. as a fellow autistic asian gay, wish i was this mature in college lmao)
Dina’s insecurity about Becky was originally foreshadowed a lot more like it was going to be a big thing, and then it kind of dried up into a very minor background quirk at most. I would love to see that develop into something!
Like, we haven’t really seen if Dina gets RSD, but I think RSD is one of the things that really debunks the “unflappable autistic” Positive Stereotype that a lot of works employ nowadays. Dina does have her shit together, but so did Dorothy, and we’ve had multiple storylines now focusing on how Dorothy’s attempt to have her shit together didn’t negate her still being a dumbass teenager.
I really appreciate this comment really engaging with the main point I was making, and as smartass as I sound about a lot of this, I would genuinely just love to see a Dina storyline that gives her something to really struggle and grow with. To me, that’s good representation: A dynamic character who gets to engage with the core premise of the comic, “college kids make dumb mistakes, especially the ones who think they’re too smart for that, unless they’re Carla”.
It really seems you mistake you not being able to engage with the character with something that is wrong with her writting and not just your personal preference.
Dumbing of Age Book 15: You Are Perfect, Because You Are So Autistic and So Gay
Dammit, beat me by a minute!
Dammit, beat me to it!
Book Whatever Title: “You Are Perfect, Because You Are So Autistic and So Gay.”
I love how Dina simply said thank you because that is a completely viable way to salvage this interaction
– signed So autistic and so gay
LMAO
That’s the idea of perfection? So, then…
“Stupid Perfect Dina” Anyone that associates that with Flanders gets pied.
like, just 12 years ago Joyce thought she was gonna be “teaching Dina the ways of the world”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/story-2/
Now look at Joyce’s aspiration to Dina, the contrast is HUGE :0
I adore this.
Wow, I was not expecting Joyce to immediately apologize, and realize the things she said are what make Dina who she is, and aren’t to be mocked, or put down for.
True. I love that. But I don’t get the association between autism and perfection? Why does Joyce think that Dina’s autism makes her perfect?
(The gay thing I do get, though, totally. Even though Dina hasn’t completely pigeonholed her sexual orientation as far as we’ve seen.)
What is understandable about the gay thing to you? (Not challenging that, just looking for more of your perspective for a starting point.)
Well, just because being gay is awesome! 😀
Like, Joyce understands that Jocelyne might feel more comfortable coming out first to Becky and Dina, as they are also part of the LGBTQIA2+ community, whereas Joyce does not yet recognize that part of herself.
So being gay (or gay/demi/ace/etc.) makes Dina and Becky “perfect” members of Joyce’s friend group for Jocelyne to start opening up to.
I just don’t get where the autism comes in, though. Like, is Joyce assuming that Dina doesn’t accidentally misgender because Joyce is stereotyping Dina’s autism as helping Dina to learn structured rules and live by them?
So here’s one thing: for some people (me, for example), being autistic is awesome too.
I don’t think the gay and autistic comments were about how Joce told Dina before Joyce. I think some of it might be Joyce’s frustration around the idea of Dina figuring out these things about *herself* first (in relation to Joyce), but more, I think she’s lashing out because she she’s upset. And some of the ways Dina approaches things might be ways she wishes she could approach things, but different autistic brains can be very different, so maybe some of that too.
Oh, yes, that makes lots of sense. Thank you, Yumi!
And I apologize, truly: I did NOT mean to imply that autism was any less awesome than being gay. I just meant that Joyce might be able to understand the awesome parts of gay spectra more than she might yet understand the awesome parts of autism spectra.
I was just trying to figure out what Joyce in particular meant by that.
I did not intend any disrespect. I am truly sorry that my words came out the wrong way.
Personally, being late-identified autistic there’s a lot of emotions that aren’t so pleasant along with the joy of figuring out that I was never “built wrong” or “bad at being human”. I’m definitely mapping some of my experiences onto Joyce here, but I had a year of grieving and still hold a lot of resentment and anger (mostly at the mental health system, but sometimes it gets misplaced) because I spent so long thinking I was broken, then figuring out how to exist in a way that works for me and accepting that I won’t have the life that i always wanted for myself.
Throw in a couple of big reveals, a touch of jealousy, a dose of insecurity and a dash of fear of rejection (or feeling not-enoughness) and I can understand why Joyce might be a teenie-weenie bit dysregulated.
“bad at being human”
Heh, I think that about myself regularly, but I don’t consider it a bad thing. Humans are horrible beings (at least potentially, definitely not always) so being bad at that is at worst morally neutral. It is just a thing I am in specific moments like tired or sad, and sometimes it feels like something permanent, like feeling tired… or sad. Huh, I really thought I would have different things to put there. Ah well.
There’s a lot of different feelings and experiences, and that’s totally fair. I am also a later-identified autistic, having received my diagnosis earlier this year. I TOTALLY get that feeling of “bad at being human”– I felt that all the time. I’d phrase it in ways like, “I do a terrible impression of a human and would like to stop.” My experience of learning that I’m autistic has been very positive for me, though there are various stresses and sadnesses with it. It’s been exciting for me to learn about in much the same way that recognizing my queerness was exciting; not everyone has positive or predominantly positive experiences of either of these things. But some do!
Also, very much hear you on the “thinking I was broken”; when my therapist suggested I might seek a neuropsych eval, it was like, “Really? Like, you think I might be something other than broken?”
I really hear this. It makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for sharing these experiences, Yumi and Regret and Bogeywoman.
(I’m still at the “busted brain” phase, my self. Still just figuring it all out. It’s a strange place to be. Working on it.)
Absolutely understandable/relatable. +1 on the gratitude to everyone who’s wanted to share.It’s really nice to see the solidarity that forms out of it!
After two years of a late diagnosis in my mid-thirties, I’m still working on unraveling my internalized ableism. I’m doing better! But fuck, it’s hard! The first time I was suggested as an adult that my (also late diagnosed) ADHD def came with a side of ASD I went again through The Grief: It hurt to know life could’ve been better if I had gotten the right tools/better support. I wasn’t kind to myself during this. But Yumi is right!! My entire group of friends is Queer AND Neurodivergent. Overwhelmed after getting my diagnosis, Feeling Unidentifiable Things; I went to tell them, and they were like “YAY CONGRATULATIONS, WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!” It was beautiful, truly ;ww;
(Nowadays, my main struggle is RSD. I may put too much theatre in the way I word things, and sometimes they come out Wrong. Overexplaining doesn’t fix it! Getting that “–” from The Sims on real life is awful; but hurting other people is the worst |’DD)
RSD? If you’d like to share more about that, I’d love to learn.
It’s because of Dina that Joyce really began to break her Chains of Sunday School, as well as her being a partner to Becky, Joyce’s best friend.
Dina’s beautiful mind is also a very good place to be, if not the best in the universe T_T <3
*plays “The Touch” by Stan Bush on hacked muzak*
ooops,
that SHOULD have read,
*plays “Welcome To Jurassic Park Piano Cover” on hacked muzak*
Lovely!
Replying here because it won’t let me higher in the other thread! :’33
RSD, or Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria is a negative, disregulated emotional reaction common in ADHD and ASD to perceived societal rejection. It has some overlap with social anxiety; but a person with RSD may not feel anxious about an interaction until it goes badly. They have overly strict standards of themselves, and their self-esteem depends a lot on how they’re perceived. Criticism fucks them up, and so does exclusion/ostracism. They hyperfocus on the interaction, ruminate, the shame/guilt/sadness they’re left feeling is disproportionate and long-lasting to the point it can be physically felt. And sometimes just to not feel even worse in the future, they can impulsively self-sabotage relationships.
All fun stuff. It’s not in the DSM5 as a disorder, rather, it’s more of a collection of symptoms that have a neurological cause.
Oh, wow, Dante! That makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for sharing that information with me!
(I say the wrong thing ALL. THE. TIME.) 🙊
Or should it have read:
*plays that one episode of MBMBaM where they sang the Jurassic Park theme with the lyrics “We are dinosaurs” over and over on hacked muzak*?
You’d think there would be searchable transcripts online for this kind of thing, but I couldn’t find them. It lives on in my brain every time anyone speaks of dinosaurs or Jurassic Park/World, anyway.
Because these things are a part of her and make her who she is?
Yes, that makes sense. Like Joyce is saying,
“You are perfect, because you are YOU.”
“You are perfect exactly the way you are, because of who you are.”
Thank you for the clarification, Shade and Kyrik!
No trouble.
Sometimes we just need a little help from a different perspective.
It’s less that autism is related to perfection, and more that Joyce is saying it because it’s part of who Dina is. She’s saying Dina is perfect just how she is because her traits make up who Dina is.
Is Dina perfect for most things? No; nobody is. Is Dina perfect girlfriend for supporting Becky and spending time with her? Absolutely.
In Panel 1, she’s yelling at Dina because she’s mad. “Oh, you’re so perfect, cuz you’re…”
And then, well, what insults can she use? Once upon a time, she’d have said “You’re an evilustionist,” but now she’s started to admit that as well.
So what else does she know? Dina’s gay (well, Dina’s female-shaped and dating a female-shaped person, so by Joyce’s current standards that means…), and Dina’s autistic (based on what Dina herself has said). Two things that are societally not great, so make valid insults.
“Oh, you’re so PERFECT” — you must be, after all, Becky loves you. Because — um, autism and gayness.
In a concentrated form, this is kind of like Becky’s overall reaction to Dorothy.
But then, Joyce being Joyce, she feels bad, and apologizes, using those same two things she instinctively used as insults as compliments.
She’s learning.
this needs to be top comment
Don’t worry Joyce: you’re also autistic, and at the rate the comic is going you could conceivably come out as bi within the decade
And absolutely no one will be perfect ever.
Carla would disagree.
Yeah, what do people find so confusing about this? You’re either perfect, or you’re not Carla. There’s no grey area.
Careful; your Vegeta is showing.
Think TFS would be willing to collab on a Carla “I AM THE HYPE” shirt?
Thank you for making me giggle out loud ^^
… or when she wil get the Dorothy’s pic
i love the immediate turnaround LOL. awesome
… so when does Joyce start squeeing with glee about having the big sister she always wanted?
Sarah reaches for her bat…
So the three of them can play softball together!
honestly, if you’re collecting new sisters at a rate of 1 per year, I’d say you’re doing pretty well at college!
Dina’s like “I’m not gay, but I can see Joyce is processing things and doesn’t need me weighing in.”
Dina is grey asexual
however, earthlings also seem to use “gay” to romantic attraction as well as sexual ^^
Also I imagine spending time around Becky has exposed her to the current use of gay to mean good or flawless. She’s probably taking it in the spirit it’s intended, even if it may not be entirely correct.
I’m more referring to her “not being concerned with gender presentation of partners” or however she put it. Whether I’m talking about sex, romance, or both I hadn’t actually been considering.
I think Dina is biromantic, but plenty of bi folks use “gay” as a label sometimes.
I feel like she would want to be exact and scientific about it, but that’s just my take on the character in this moment. And of all the labels she or we could attach to her the only one I can think to claim for myself is autistic, so perhaps I’m not the best authority on the whole mess.
It’s possible she’s not sure on the details of her orientation herself– she seem open to ongoing questioning– and so she’s fine with what she (and many) views as a general term.
Given she referenced “Be gay do crimes.” I think she’s comfortable with that use.
YES :D
Good catch! ^^
Oh, are you referencing that one time she put a Dino hat on Ethan?
yee yee, bi folk using “gay” as a label totes valid as well ^^
I honestly don’t even remember it. I just know Willis has said that sexuality for the characters is the same across universes, and Dina has had romantic interactions with guys in Willis’ other work. (Which I have never read.)
In universe, the strip Dana linked is the best evidence of it, I think.
Ah, in DoA verse she still may be questioning it seems! ^^
also yes, in It’s Walky she actually dated Walky and even Mike if you can believe that.
Found the quote: “I am uncertain if gender expression matters to me.”
Given Dina’s tendency to be precise we know this applies both to her judgement of others and her own gender expression.
Dina doesn’t seem particularly attracted to or repulsed by men or women; it’s Madame Science who she lusts for. Whosoever dons the mantle of science is the one who inspires the Pants Euphoria.
That’s not entirely a joke. Most of what would make me think she’s gray asexual is what she said *before* she and Becky figured out what got her going, and she’s been kinda active since. I kinda thought she had a sapiosexual thing going, except… scientiasexual? I dunno.
Labels are imperfect anyways. She’s Dina.
Autism to Autism communication
A thing of beauty
I honestly love this as an autistic asexual lesbian(and yes, I do identify as gay too). Especially since… Dina resented Joyce for being so easily identified as autistic when Dina hasn’t been diagnose despite much effort. This is such a validating thing to say in that context.
That’s a really cool point.
It was my understanding she has at this point, it just took a lot of work to get there.
While Joyce doesn’t have the formal diagnosis yet, but got referred pretty easily.
yee, Dina was denied a diagnosis for decades because of racist doctors, I can see why she very much appreciates Joyce affirming her like this T_T <3
Dina is a college freshman. She isn’t multiple decades old.
*decade
This is what I get for pulling all-nighters, fair XD
She’s 19, so she’s almost multiple decades old!
Plural works: 1.9 decades. It would sound ridiculous to say 1.9 decade.
She’s 20.
well they’re baby steps and they’re shaky as all fuck, but they ARE still moving forward. that counts
These two are getting there!
It’s all in the delivery.
I remember the moment i had the realization that just because someone was queer didn’t mean i had to *like* them. I think that was way past college hahaha. as a person who grew up in a conservative church this is so relatable, because when you’re learning about a whole new part of the world sometimes you start to just overdo it and feel bad about not being queer enough, or start to kind of put people on a pedestal just because they part of a minority, without recognizing that that’s also a form of putting people in boxes rather than looking at them as people. this really hits the nail on the head. Ouch.
Ayup. Yup, yup, yup. *shaking head*…
*Walks away, sadly, muttering, “yup, yup, yup, yup, yup. Hmm. Yup…”*
I, don’t really think that is what this strip is trying to convey. At all
Took me even longer to realize that just because someone was the only queer in the vicinity, I didn’t have to sleep with them or try to get them to sleep with me.
True that!
It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it in action
“What you said, but without the sarcasm.” 😛
“Sarah I feel like you’re just saying the same things but with a different tone and facial expression.”
Joyce five minutes later:
There’s a difference though.
Sarah, I think, is saying the same things with the same intent to make it seem like she’s more cheerful and pleasant.
Joyce used the different tone and expression to show that her intent was actually different.
Or more simply, Sarah’s faking it, Joyce means it.
The difference is the tone is sincere.
Stupid sexy
FlandersDinaShe’s designed for maximum mobility!
Being the kind of autistic with wild emotional dysregulation can suck. Being the kind of autistic with wild emotional dysregulation who is friends with auties who don’t /appear/ to have wild emotional dysregulation which feels like *I’m not even good enough compared to you* sucks harder
God it does. Been there [sends hugs]
Joe just standing there like “wth is just happening”.
Not unlike me.
She a bit confused, but she got the spirit
Glass houses, Joyce.
Joyce learning from her other older sister, Sarah
I just wanna make a comment to say that I find the reaction of some commenters in the past few strips to be… kinda weird. Namely, the ones who were upset that Dina and Becky knew before Joyce. Not just ‘aw I wish we’d seen that’, I saw a couple that did say that it was wrong that Joyce wasn’t told first. Joyce is allowed to feel some type of way about that, but acting like not telling her sister is a moral failing of some kind…
People aren’t beholden to knowing things about others. Not even family. I say this as a non-binary biromantic asexual who is barely out to anyone in my family. My close friends know. My father knows. Two of my cousins (one of which is bi) knows. That is it. Because I live in the South. Because the vast majority of the people in my extended family are racist, homophobic, and a whole lot of other nasty things. It literally isn’t safe for me to tell some of these people these things. I’ve gone no-contact with almost all of them, but I still have my grandmother that I’m in contact with. She knows very little about me, and that’s her own damn fault.
We still don’t know how it is that Hank knows about Joss. Joyce is still new to being an ally and even if Joss knew she was cool with Becky, there was still a chance that Joyce could have been the type to think “gays, they’re okay, but the trans people? Oh no!”. What matters is that Joss is telling her sister now, and Joyce is doing a great job of accepting her sister. It isn’t wrong of Joss to have not told her sooner, or that she told other people sooner. It is Joss’ choice when and who she tells. It needs to be respected.
+1
Yeah, it’s pretty clear Jocelyne had no idea whether Joyce would be safe to tell or not, and her “I need to tell you something important before you hear it from Dad” sounds like she feels backed into a corner with no option but to tell Joyce at this point. We as the audience know Joyce would be okay, but she had no way of knowing that.
The last time she saw them, Joyce was still much more conflicted about severing ties with the churchgoers than Becky was. (Becky was ready to write the whole town off, except for Joyce, even before the congregation bailed her father out of jail.)
For me, it’s mostly that we didn’t see it, but that also ties into us not knowing why Jocelyne told Becky first. How did she know to trust Becky? Sure, Becky’s gay, but not all lesbians are cool with trans people any more than all straights who are okay with gay people are.
And while part of it could be Joyce’s known issues with lying, particularly to authority figures, does Jocelyne really know Becky well enough to see past the surface flamboyance to know she really can and will keep secrets?
And then there’s Dina, who’s even more of a surprise, since as far as we knew she’d never even talked to Jocelyne before this visit.
My honest guess is that Jocelyne probably reached out to Becky because she knows damned well that Becky could have potentially needed Queer Friend Support, so her and Becky probably talk sometimes…about queer adult stuff…when that happens, one thing tends to lead to another, because being a young queer is often the very experience of being desperate for somebody queer to talk to.
I think it’s easy to sympathize with Joyce’s frustration here. It kind of feels like she’s always the last to know anything even her own sister’s existence. Jocelyne by no means is obligated to reveal her gender identity to Joyce first that is her right to choose who to reveal herself to, but this has become a pattern among Joyce’s close friends and family. It feels like she hasn’t earned their trust yet, or that they have to tiptoe around these subjects with her as if she were a child. In a way the same infantilization Dina was subjected to.
I agree about sympathizing with Joyce’s frustration. I am also often the last to know anything because no one seems to trust me. But I do not think it is infantilization to refuse to share with Joyce. Joyce does demonstrate some rigidity and she is know for extreme reactions (Joyce face), so people are reasonably hesitant to share difficult information with her.
Also, I think part of it might be that Jocelyne might have in particular been afraid of Joyce’s rejection. Becky has experience with the dangers of being outed as LGBTQ+ in her community, so even if she maybe does not respect/understand transgender people, she would hopefully know that outing Jocelyne could put her in danger and take keeping her secret seriously. And while rejection from Becky might be unpleasant, rejection from Jocelyne’s little sister may be far more devastating. And Jocelyne can have trouble gauging how much progress Joyce has made. For all she knows, coming out to Joyce sooner could have led to Joyce telling the rest of her family and causing trouble for Jocelyne. It makes some sense for Jocelyne to inform people like Dina and Ethan before Joyce because they are themselves queer, and neither of them is actually part of her family or community. Not wanting to tell Joyce about this does not necessarily have anything to do with treating her like a child.
I mean. It makes sense she wasn’t told first. It also makes sense that she’d be upset about it. No one’s fault, no one’s to blame.
When I was coming out to my family, my older brother was the last person I told. He was always more “masculine” than me, and I thought he might be homophobic. Before I came out to him, I came out to his wife (my sister in law) first, and asked her if he would be upset with me, she said “of course not”. Years later I found out that he used to defend me from homophobic bullies in middle school (I had no idea).
He told me how hurt he was that I told him last, and also that I just assumed he was homophobic based on stereotypes. I regret telling him last and not giving him more credit.
If I were Joyce’s situation I’d also feel very hurt by my sister coming out to a stranger before me.
Like I said, I think Joyce is allowed to feel upset about not being told. I acknowledge that your brother felt bad and that you regret telling him last. Completely respect these things. My issue is in people acting like being careful about who you come out to is wrong.
I think that, considering the information you had available at the time, it’s understandable why you hesitated to tell your brother. I also again acknowledge that this is now a regret for you. Both of these things can be okay and correct. I am also glad for you that you had such a supportive older brother.
And a lot warmer than you, with that sweater
Dina is gay-tistic.
“Gay-tastic”
Scream to your sister and not to Dina, dumbass!
Alternatively, don’t scream to anyone because you weren’t actually wronged here.
As another alternative, she could scream at everyone.
Jocelyne isn’t even being included right now. That’s a little trans-exclusionary, Joyce. You’re not some kinda phobe, are you, Joyce? What, your sister doesn’t get to be part of the conversation, Joyce??
I’m assuming this is just Jocelyn’s dialogue from tomorrow’s strip
Isn’t it fun, being yelled at because someone granted you a privilege that you never asked for.
It is ACTUALLY fun that Dina accepts this with an amount of grace I’ve rarely seen among the ACTUALLY privileged (among whom my cishetwhiteman ass is numbered).
And being immediately apologized to? You seems to have missed that part.
Right, Joyce’s apology rewrote their world lines, the yelling never happened.
People say “forgive and forget” but that isn’t how it actually works. We can choose to remember the healing more readily than we remember the wounding.
I’m glad that Joyce did her best to make things right, and that Dina seems to accept that.
Geez, melodramatic much?
There’s no benefit to being obtuse about this.
Joe’s fuckin face lol
As an autistic queer person, I approve, this IS how we talk with each other.*
*Joyce does not ID as queer at time of writing this but… well I give her another year in comic time.
Meh, its all same of a muchness. I live in a very liberal progressive environment, and queer/trans neurodivergent kids are considered the most precious angels ever by everybody with a DFL pin “Disclaimer I am DFL” but if you have EXACTLY the same traits but are old, you cease to be “special” and are simply a weirdo. (and a deeply suspicious one at that) I’m sorry I won’t live long enough to see how this pans out for them when they are not the new stripe of supported and popular anymore. There is going to be a lot of broken people. I wish them luck.
What does DFL mean in this context?
I gotta think like “Democratic-Farmer-Labor,” which are Minnesota Democrats. But I don’t know what the pins look like.
Oh we’ve got all kinds of pins. At the state fair you can just take your pick!
Democratic Farm Labor. Minnesota Democrats. Keeping us blue no matter who.
This feels like a really weird thing to say in this context.
Cheer up, Joyce! Logically, you’re semi-perfect, since you’re autistic and semi-gay! (waitwhatwasthatasurprise?)
So… She needs to absorb
Android 18Dorothy and then she’ll be… Perfect?The two of them together in perfect (sexual) union.
Can Joe’s face in the last panel be a new random gravatar? The angle is perfect for looking at your own message like “wtf?”
It’d be really handy for the commenters who frequently say odd things.
Odd things? Here? I won’t believe it! I shant!
Really, I think nothing that is said here should be considered odd, because nearly everything anyone says here, is similarly odd. Same levels, just different directions.
that’s why i’m perfect
Joe is having a very strange morning.
He is handling it very well I must say
“It doesn’t mean I want to be “with” her, it means I want to be her, which is a separate, distinct feeling that’s impossible to confuse with the other.” -Joyce
on one hand, thank u so much from reminding me of that
but also, curse you, for i am now slain
Joyce: “Dina, you are perfect, because you are so autistic and so gay.”
Dina: “Thank you.”
Joyce: “I wish I could be more like you. Teach me your ways, Dina.”
Dina: “Of course. You will need a lab partner.”
Dorothy: “Oh hi, guys, didn’t see you there.”
Honestly i don’t hate this at all.
Is it bad to snap at people? Yes.
But it’s a big thing if you are able to recognize when you reacted badly, and do it over again, but better.
A Youtuber i love (Tori Phantom) does a Reverse method with her kids, where she asks them: “Would you like another try at reacting?” and then they do a silly reverse move and then react more calmly to the situation that made them snap before. This is SO valuable.
Realizing you made a mistake is the first step. Trying out a new way how to handle the same situation is a learning experience super valuable to do. I love seeing Joyce owning her shit, and practicing better ways like that <3
I really love this strip, tbh. It’s relatable. It’s really nice to see Dina reacting with what seems more grace than bewilderment: Waiting to see if Joyce, who’s proven to be a character who reliably wants to be kind and works on herself, realizes what the hell she said and backtracks. They _had_ talked about being kinder to each other, and they’ve kept this up!
Turning around “autistic and gay” into a genuine compliment feels like a big step for Joyce somehow.
Damn right Joyce. and So Am I.
(Legitimately, I like this for Joyce. She pulls back in fast, and its a subject it makes sense to be wound up about. It would hurt to know a friend of yours knew what was up with your own sister first, even if it’s totally rational why things happened how they did. Not having been someone your sister could trust, even if its for reasons that were out of your hands (your upbringing you’re pretty damn fresh from), would hurt. Good recovery, joyce.)
i really think joyce and dina would make a spectacular buddy cop duo
I really want them to interact more, I dont even think they’ve had a conversation about Joyce’s atheism yet