@Laura Thank you, I always get a little anxious when my doctor changes my medication/dosage. So I’m trying to not think about it too much, and just let the meds do their job.
The best part of DoA and Joyce is that because of the glacial pace of time actually progressing we’ve endured and will continue to enjoy years of Joyce trying.
I think, while she is trying real hard, and failing, it speaks to a level of deep acceptance for her sister that she hardcore just forgets its a thing she needs to not reveal to others. Largely cause that’s one of my hurdles as an autistic when it comes to anyone I know in that sphere. It takes a lot of concentrated effort on my part to use the ‘safe pronouns’ when speaking to people who don’t know, so much so that I actually screw up and sometimes misgender friends when I’m with them.
They laugh it off whenever I feel like shit for doing it and point out they do it too, cause that’s the world we live in, where people have to hide to protect themselves. Its a sad state of affairs but its sometimes harder for people with different mental issues to make that adjustment, particularly some tistics.
I’ve been fortunate that I’ve had friends explain their situation early so I don’t develop a habit of using the wrong pronouns, and misgender them unless, like you said, it’s in front of someone who doesn’t know.
The only time it was difficult was with someone I was dating, and I was not comfortable talking about them in front of my family who is mostly conservative for obvious reasons.
It is one of those pretty big life events she wants to discuss. As she probably mentioned to Sarah she has only brothers, and now she has a sister, and that makes everything pronoun-wise awkward if you’re not going to out them.
She’s been saving them up. The nice times she’s having with Tony means she doesn’t have to distribute them all over the place, she can keep them in reserve for special occasions such as this.
I don’t think Joyce wants to break up with Joe. Seems to me he scratches wants for her that Dorothy dorsn’t.
But Dorothy’s I-Need—To-Suppress-My-Sexual-Desire-And-Jealosuy-For-Joyce-boyfriend has got to go </3
It is the exact sort of idiot solution. Polyamory not from any actual shared feelings or thoughts on a multiple partner relationship, but just on “this makes everyone happy!”
I really wanna see her try though, for so many reasons. I think it COULD work, but still be really messy and clumsy for a nice long stretch first, and then we’d have a poly relationship front and center…!
My hopes have fallen but it remains a nice little dream.
To me, that feels like the least contrived explanation for her right now, but like, she also feels like a slider or she went through a timeskip none of the other characters did and she’s just not resonating with me long enough to for me to think through it.
Dorothy breaks up with Walky first, very diplomatically (gets yelled at) only to find out that Joyce couldn’t bring herself to do the same with Joe and she tries to keep Dorothy a secret. Extremely unlikely since they’re the endgame ship apparently and that seems like it should be a relationship ending faux pas, but it would be interesting.
I think she’d keep a secret for Joyce (at least, about Joss, if she felt like Joyce was going to get hurt by keeping something a secret like her feelings for Dorothy she might not).
Wasn’t Sarah in hot water with Raidyah’s group literally for sharing someone’s secrets? Gee, that’s not gonna come up again.
Sarah will keep a secret up until it’s getting in her way or she thinks it needs to be shared, so she’s completely untrustworthy unless you know you’re opinion. Generally she seems not-homophobic so she probably won’t share, but if she was anti-trans she definitely would.
She’s in trouble with Raidah’s group for telling an 18/19 yos dad that his kid was struggling with addiction due to grief and needed help.
That actually is a secret that’s totally fine to share with someone the person-in-trouble trusts.
She also protected her scholarship by telling, rather than just letting Dana drag them both down. Which is also totally allowed, she didn’t have to burn her future for a near-stranger.
I don’t think a secret from Joyce is going to fall in the same category, and I think the idea that this makes her “completely untrustworthy” is laughable at best, histrionic at worst.
And that kid was thrown out of school, and sent back to who knows what sort of home life labeled as a drug abuser. With the right family that gets you thrown out on the street, beaten, etc.
No, Sarah is not trustworthy with secrets. She will do what she thinks is best, which may or may not be the best. That doesn’t mean she’s an evil person, it means that you have to be very careful with what you tell her.
She was not thrown out by the school, her family pulled her from the University after Sarah contacted them about her spiraling.
Dana was not seeking help for her depression nor allowing her friend group to know she was in need of help. Sarah was unable to get Raidah’s group that Dana was in trouble. Dana’s use of weed reached a level that it was impacting Sarah’s health mentally and physically. In addition to her scholarship.
Nowhere in the narrative was there a indication that her family was abusive.
Sarah is not obligated to take harm in keeping another person’s self destruction hidden.
This was Raidah and Sarah’s differing framing of the issue. Raidah saying Dana’s not in a better place according to Dana is as close as we’ve gotten to any indication that Dana’s home life is unsafe, and I do think Raidah would have been more blunt here if she meant more.
It’s currently LESS controversial (by the numbers)? We did get into an argument last time over whether or not this sort of thing is “outing”, though, and we could easily rehash it.
I think Joe and Sarah will, mostly because I lowkey suspect they might get together at some point because their self-improvement arcs are similar. I think Sarah will be a little cross at Joyce. Not very cross, just a quick “Bro, really?”
I think she cares for Joyce a lot more than Joe (obviously), so I can’t imagine there any being lasting irritation longer than like… the single strip it’s in. But she is a lot more open about caring about her friend group as of recently, which is the only reason I envision her being irritated at all.
Outside of the affected dudes, the only ones I see getting really irritated about this are Dina, Becky (for entirely personal reasons), Billie (I really hope, just because she’s always mean to Walky and I would like to see her stick up for him just once), aaaaaaand… that’s basically it.
I don’t envision Danny getting involved, I do envision him accidentally starting a fight with Sal over it. Amber is a trash goblin who maybe can get back together with Walky at some point and I think was secretly rooting for this or something? Jacob I can see getting Very Upset, but he’s not really a main character.
OH WAIT. I FORGOT DANNY WAS JOE’S BEST FRIEND. Yeah, Danny’s gonna have beef. And if Sal doesn’t, they’re gonna have beef too, Danny has blown up his own ships before for… I guess not less, but like, he’s got bad foot-in-mouth disease and I can see him quickly getting frustrated if he hops in to defend Joe (especially the New Not Annoying Joe) only to get Sal literally not caring, and him not understanding the really complicated web of reasons she has to not get emotionally involved.
this also means we may get the ultimate reversal of the Danny/Joe dynamic: Danny imploring Joe to Please Have a Spine and some Self-Respect, while Joe absolutely refuses to, because it’s actually much harder than Danny is making it seem.
Jacob getting very upset at who?
He’s friends with Joe and Joyce. But he’s not in position to judge.
Will he get mad for Walky after scooping up his ex and spurning Sarah.
I thought he was fairly decent friends with Joe and after Joyce did her thing with him, he seemed to have a significantly lowered opinion of her. Her violating another relationship of someone close to him with more or less the same issue going on would probably peeve him off. Like, he basically lost her as an actual friend more or less over the Raidah thing, he has pretty strong feelings about loyalty and respecting the sanctity of relationships (evidenced by him immediately dumping Raidah after the kiss and then refusing to reward himself by dating Joyce.) I mean, he was also midkey on a weird high horse iirc, but he has reasons to be more irritated with her personally than many of the other cast members. Whether it ever comes up, idk, that’s why he was at the bottom of my list. Dude can be super disappointed and possibly even dislike someone without harping at them. He’s not Rachel lol.
I’m starting to think that one of the biggest complications WILL be that many people in Joyce’s inner circle, have taken a genuinely liking to Joe, and respect him. Dina considers him a real friend, now, and it seems like Sarah does, too.
Joyce is really not prepared for how many people, who she considers “safe” people to her, are going to react justifiably badly at what she’s done.
I’ve mentioned this before but a chief difference between now and back when Joyce was doing her thing with Ethan – by far worse than cheating in my opinion – is that Sarah cares now. She’s invested in the friend group. She will not be ambivalent this time.
Joyce’s thing with Ethan, whatever else it was, was consensual from all parties involved. It wasn’t healthy for Ethan, but everybody involved was completely informed about what was going on.
Joyce’s arrangement with Ethan was a repulsively homophobic attempt to convert him to heterosexuality. It might actually be the worst thing Joyce has ever done in the strip. Cheating is bad, and wrong, but it’s not perpetuating systemic violence against a minority group.
This can be true, while also acknowledging the reality that it’s completely unreasonable to expect somebody from Joyce’s exact background to understand this fact, and be able to act in accordance to it. Of course that was a completely reasonable thing to do, for somebody who is completely ignorant to all of the context of what she was doing, unaware of the harms, and primed to see what Ethan was trying to do as reasonable.
Like did she enable him? Yes! But, how the hell would you expect her to be able to see why what she did was wrong?
In short, I have trouble holding her accountable for doing something that she couldn’t have reasonably understood the problem with, or consequences of. If someone walks into a room and leans on a lever, and they didn’t know that moving the lever would kill 100 people, you wouldn’t reasonably attribute intent or malice to their leaning, even with the dire consequences.
I’m not saying she should be pilloried for what she did. Once she had the full context for why what she was doing was wrong, she put an end to it and was extremely distraught. She’s paid her dues for it, certainly.
That’s just one more reason to think that the exact same outcome is coming for her on infidelity, IMO. There’s just no way she isn’t underselling the seriousness of what she’s done to herself, because she’s not grasping something that is obvious to everybody who has been socialized more adequately.
I know it was played for laughs, but there IS the fact that on Joyce and Joe’s first date ever, she paid Mike to sit in with them and physically assault Joe periodically.
Not to say that Ethan wasn’t bad, but I don’t remember it happening that “Oh, I’m trying to convert him!” Rather, HE asked HER out and they were together for a while before he told her that he was attracted to men but wanted to see if he could also be attracted to women. And she went along with it because she was afraid of her own sexuality and of men in general, and after the near-rape at the party, felt safe with him.
Joyce was a bit naive on the details, and Ethan was certainly pushing himself due to pressure from his parents… but he wasn’t being pushed by Joyce. She had heard of “conversion therapy” as a good thing, of course, which is why she was willing to go along with his idea, bit it WAS his idea.
…also, don’t you remember how Amber reacted, when she learned that it WASN’T the churchey little conservative trying to convert the gay man, but rather Ethan trying to see if he wasn’t actually a Kinsey 7 after all? It was, tearfully, “So you’ll try with her, but you won’t try with me?”
Is that the worst thing that Amber has done? Because Joyce just went along with it; Amber was actively angry and hurt that Ethan would choose to do it with someone other than her.
Yeah, I’m going to say that paying someone to physically assault her date through the night is worse. Joyce / Ethan is only horrible if you make her out to be the provocateur and the one putting pressure on him to change, instead of being led along cluelessly until finally she learns that Ethan’s actually hurting himself.
Joyce was also just dealing with trauma from attempted rape and a boy who made her feel safe because he was both protective and not interested at all helped there. That doesn’t make it good, but more understandable.
It was also 4 days from him telling her he was gay to her breaking up with him.
Y’all keep explaining Joyce’s motivations in the situation as if I don’t understand them. I do! That’s part of why I don’t hold it against her too much!
Sarah might be our second Relationship Paladin cast member, probably not as extreme as Danny’s “cheating means you’re morally bankrupt”. But she cares about Joyce and when she’s making mistakes, she’s giving Joe a second chance, and she knows having a SO ‘stolen’ hurts. 1) It hurt when Liz did it to her, 2) it was how Sarah was trying to hurt Raidah.
She really can’t judge too harshly. She did everything to block joe and was principally responsible for encouraging Dorothy to go after Joyce. Or maybe she will judge since she predicted this. But she probably hastened this a little.
Sarah went to Dorothy’s door and knocked on it urgently, calling for her to come hook up with Joyce to prevent Joe/Joyce from happening, as almost the very first reaction she had to hearing they were a couple.
But Dorothy slept through the knocking, as far as we know, and it was Sarah’s only such attempt.
I should have been clearer, but my point was like, “The closest Sarah came to doing that was this incident, I can maybe see how someone might misremember it I guess.”
There’s a chance Joyce and Dorothy cheating might upset a bunch of their friend group, way more than just Joe, Walky, and Becky. Some of them might not care as much, but I’d like to hope some of them are bothered by the cheating.
I doubt Amber would care much, Ruth seems like she’d express exhaustion with their freshman antics, Billie set herself up as the scapegoat, Dina may be annoyed with them for upsetting Becky and being skeezoids, Sal seems to think they’re doing it already, Danny wears a hat, Ethan is too busy getting railed and moping, Lucy is too busy getting railed and laughing, Jacob already has experience with Joyce’s relationship bombing, Asher’s a satellite, Mike is dead, Booster might have to listen to Walky crying, Carla, Malaya isn’t a factor, neither is Marcie, and I’m probably forgetting a couple of characters. Those seem like the most obvious considerations to me.
“I doubt Amber would care much.” To the contrary, this was her plan when she was encouraging Dorothy to send Joyce a carefully lit shot of her secondary sex characteristics. So that Walky would be available. This was a plan that Booster admired. Amazigirl was less impressed.
The interesting question is how Amber would react when the plan goes through exactly as intended and Wally is low again. It’s one thing to want this in the abstract, another to have it happen. And if he ever found out she had a hand in intentionally busting him and Dorothy up? Well.
Yeah, but this would require her not to assume that she should just get everything about this right, reflexively, with no work and no outside help. And she’s sure as hell not gonna think of something that crazy…
Remember, use of wet willies during sibling interrogation is a violation of the Geneva convention. No, not that one. This is a set of rules for intersibling conflict written by a ten year old girl named Geneva.
sorry, just thought about how in the walkyverse sarah just wants to see joyce fall and in dumbiverse she just wants to see joyce thrive and got emotional for a second. i’m fine
Okay, so like, today’s strip is especially hilarious in the context of Sarah just being Joyce’s roommate as opposed to someone with literal authority over her. I don’t mean that in a mean way, I’m just literally imagining this concept irl between two people with the comedic glare lol.
Like, I can only hear it in the same tone I use with my daughter when she’s trying to hide something she’s not supposed to have behind her back lol.
There’s also a TV series on disney+ but it doesn’t have Nicholas Cage in it so what’s the point? And a third film that’s definitely 100% still happening with the original cast despite having been in the works since 2008, and Nicholas Cage saying a few years ago that he doesn’t want to do a third one
I think we can probably now safely assume the “Joyce and Dororothy’s kiss went viral” theory is not accurate, at least for the time being. Neither Raidah nor Sal nor Sarah commented on it, and between the three of them, someone would likely have seen it on social media if it had blown up.
That said, all it really takes is one wrong person with knowledge, and we don’t really know what ended up happening with Mary…
I feel like Raidah’s comment could have implied seeing something. Sarah not seeing anything on social media doesn’t 100% exclude it from being a thing since I don’t get the impression she stays super up to date on that stuff (or at least, actively seeking it out same day. I knew people in Texas who did not know about the floods for like three days or until I told them about it.) I feel like we need to see like, one more person before definitively ruling it out, personally.
Yeah, I do think the fact that Joyce has now reflexively told every subsequent person she has seen that her, Dorothy, and also several times her sister, were at the protest, which she was clearly instructed several times not to do, is liable to get some people into trouble.
No she hasn’t. She told Raidah they were at the protest and she told Sarah she was with her sister. 1 single piece of information per person, neither of whom are likely to communicate with each other about it
Maybe she came here to get in a quick shower before she looks for Joe! Or maybe just to find her phone.
Though, while I do agree that Joyce’s current info leaks are unlikely to get anyone in trouble (neither Raidah nor Sarah would rat Jocelyne out even if they knew she was at the protest?), I do think Joyce has consistently demonstrated a profound lack of understanding around why she wasn’t supposed to bring her phone / ask for people by name.
Which is understandable! But also, yeah, COULD result in her getting some people in trouble by accident, if she keeps it up.
I don’t think it will because I don’t think Willis wants to get Jocelyne specifically in a ton of legal trouble here — but heck, I could be wrong, “Jocelyne spends the night in jail and has to be bailed out by her dad” was one of the outcomes I predicted for this storyline like a month ago.
Well, according to Jocelyne, she didn’t bring a phone because it would tie her to the site and that would be a risk since she doesn’t live there. It would have been fine for Joyce to bring her phone. Again, according to Joyce.
I don’t think you can safely rule out Raidah spilling the beans. She has no particular love for Joyce, and doesn’t know Jocelyne. It probably wouldn’t even register with her that it’s supposed to be a secret. The best you could hope for is that, Joyce and Joss being basically nobodies, she’d probably never give them a second thought.
On the other hand, if she that holding something like that over Joyce would give her power over Sarah, who knows? Even if she considers Sarah to be nobody, Raidah clearly hates her, and knows hurting Joyce would hurt Sarah. It just depends on how petty she actually is.
@Michelle: Oh, I definitely don’t think Raidah would do it out of the goodness of her heart, exactly. I just don’t think she would seek out an interaction with the police.
If she had the opportunity to get Joyce in trouble with, like, the school newspaper, totally.
I think we can safely rule out a viral post as being somewhat unlikely at this point. A photo on the front page of tomorrows newspaper can’t be ruled out yet.
Actually, I’d hard disagree. Between Sal being nonplussed, Raidah being automatically hostile and accusing them of attention-seeking, and now Sarah immediately accusing her of having secrets and then glaring, there is clearly SOMETHING up. If it’s not the kiss, I don’t know what.
I’ve said it a million times, Joyce and Dorothy cheating on Walky and Joe would literally splinter the group up, as they’re basically the hub of their social group. There are smaller centers of closer friends – say, Jennifer-Sal-Walky, or Becky-Dina-Amber, or Dorothy-Danny-Joe, but the glue that holds everyone together is their friends with Walky and Joyce. She is the overtly-friendly extrovert who went out of her way to make friends with everyone she could, and Walky is the charming adorable extrovert who was turning his friend group’s smoochy chart into an ouroboros. This is going to do massive collateral damage.
And to be clear the secret Joyce is thinking of in this specific strip doesnt actually have anything to do with the kiss but rather Jocelyne being trans
If someone’s trying to hide something, and the person they’re speaking to hasn’t expressed suspicion, they naturally lean on speaking generally and all-encompassing, instead of specifically and singular. That is because the more specific we are, the closer we sound to the truth. As an example: You might say to a suspicious landlord that you don’t have any pets, per the lease. But if you say that you don’t have *a* pet, then it starts feeling less hypothetical and more real, because you are defining quantity. Or, “I haven’t seen anyone in this area recently,” versus “I didn’t see a person over here.” Or, “I have no secrets,” versus “I don’t have a secret.”
It’s not huge, but it’s real.
On the other hand, when someone suspects that someone isn’t being truthful, they often take that generalized statement and narrow it down to a point. The landlord will not say, “I think they have animals,” but rather, “I think they have a pet.” The police officer will think not “I think there were people back here,” but “I
think the perp may have been back here.” Or Sarah might respond, not “Oh, you have secrets,” but “Oh, you’re hiding something. That’s because when uncovering the truth, one doesn’t assume a quantity until they have more information. You may or may not have pets, plural, but at the very least you have A pet you’re hiding.
This was a long-winded way of saying that, by Joyce saying “I have no secrets” and Sarah replying that “Oh, you’ve GOT secrets,” actually implies that Sarah has some knowledge of those secrets. Otherwise she would not have assumed that the inverse of Joyce saying that she had no secrets, meant that she had multiple secrets.
Also – this is a nitpick, perhaps, but I wouldn’t call Jocelyne’s existence a “secret,” per se. The fact that she has a sister can’t be a secret for all of eternity. Rather, the fact that Jocylene was AMAB kind of falls more under “none of your damn business” and “not my right to say.”
I think Mary trying to tell Joe or Walky would be received similarly to how Danny reacted when Mike tried to tell him that Dorothy was sleeping with him: flat disbelief, made both funny and sad by Dorothy (or Joyce) almost immediately confirming that she’s technically not lying.
Huh, a thought occurred to me. How good is Sarah at keeping secrets? Y’know, outside of avoiding people like the plague. (for some reason, this got posted as a reply that I decided not to do after refreshing)
She’s probably trustworthy with things like Jocelyne. But if Joyce expects her to keep quiet about the cheating, I think that’s likely to be a much harder sell.
What’s funny about this specifically, is that Joyce is likely to assume the opposite, given her and Sarah’s previous work to break up Raidah and Jacob.
She should still check with Jocelyne. Joss is still in a very precarious and uneasy point in her coming out, and it’s common courtesy to respect whatever boundaries she might have about who does and doesn’t get to know right now.
Also there’s the fact that her sister is currently acting in opposition of the state. I don’t think Jocelyn would actually have a problem with Joyce telling a person she rightly trusts about her…but she might reasonably take umbrage with Joyce constantly bring up that she has been here, on campus, recently, when people are not supposed to know that she was here, because she has no specific right to be here.
That might well have been her entire plan for coming to this specific protest, even though she had to travel for it. Killing two birds with one stone, I come out to my lil sister, and that’s my cover for being in town at a conspicuous time for no other reason.
I’d agree in a lot of situations, but Joyce’s (extremely chill and trustworthy) college roommate is so entirely superfluous to her life I cannot imagine how it would matter or how she would care. I think Joyce is just doing her regular well intentioned overthinking!!
I get it, but Jocelyne just came up to campus as Jocelyne and met like half of Joyce’s friends with no apparent qualms. It’s pure coincidence that Sarah wasn’t among them. That’s pretty solid evidence that she wouldn’t care.
Maybe its like Batman? Sure you want to be seen fighting injustice all dressed as your true self, but for the sake of your relationships, security, and loved ones don’t want people to recognize you as you secret identity Bruce Wayne or, in this case, Joshua Brown.
Yeah, superhero secret identities resonate for a lot of different types of marginalization. Closeted queer folks of all stripes — but also provisional whiteness, the kind where you’re assumed to be white unless people know your surname, with which a lot of early comic book creators were extremely familiar.
Bob Kane and Stan Lee aren’t the names they were born with.
Okay so since two thirds of Joyce’s closest female friends are people who have fallen in love with her I now declare that it’s Sarah’s turn at some point 🫶 My joejoyce has fallen, my sarahjoejoyce has fallen…. now all i have is sarahjoe and sarahjoy…. if Dotty can beat the mom allegations then Sarah can beat the sister ones dammit!!!
Yes I’m aware. But I dislike that role for Sarah (for reasons I will not get into bc people were Weird about race in yesterdays comments) and its something I always hope will get retired with time… so i elect to dismiss it and headcanon it away as mislabeled gayisms in the interim because i can ❤️
I think this is more evidence that the kiss was on social media and oh goodness Sarah saw it.
“I was with my big sister.”-Joyce
“I’m your big sister.”-Sarah (not knowing about Jocelyne)
Then Sarah thinks about Joyce kissing Dorothy and if that’s how Joyce treats a big sister that is the glare right now. More annoyed with that’s the cover (lie?) Joyce tried to go with than anything.
Jocelyne and Sarah will have to fight one day. One big sister must assert dominance over the other to establish a pecking order. That’s just how it goes. I don’t make the rules.
I’m wondering how much Sarah, and probably others of Joyce’s friends and classmates, know about some of Joyce’s secrets. There’s a good chance somebody took a picture or a video of Joyce and Dorothy kissing at the protest and posted it on social media already.
Just checking sarah+jocelyne . . . and, yes, Sarah briefly saw her (before Jocelyne was out). And presumably Joyce has previously mentioned only having brothers.
It’s funny that Leslie immediately figured it out with even less context and Sarah has to interrogate Joyce about it. I mean, it is entirely in character. Plus now she might have some competition for Joyce’s Big Sister position.
Wow… I feel like I’m the only person here who’s a little blown away by all this talk of “cheating” and “infidelity”. Just thinking back to when I was that age —
Sounds like Joe ans Joyce have been dating for, like, a week, tops, based on the timeline Joyce explained to Billie and Alice. I’m quite surprised that she even wanted to have sex with Joe within the first week of dating, when she was originally scared even to kiss him — but I guess I can just chalk that up to hormones and 18 years of total sexual repression under fundamentalism. Plus the need to rebel and the “I’m on birth control now, so I might as well get this over with.” Not exactly foundations of a long-term trusting relationship. She mostly knows Joe as the reformed horndog who somehow got stuck on her.
And, Dorothy, with Walky, I mean, were they ever really back together to begin with? He had just broken up with Lucy, not quite even over her or absolutely certain things were over. And then Dorothy started freaking out and he asked her, “Dorothy, do you want sex?” To whoch she answered something like, “That’d be nice, yes, please.” But during their first “make-up sex” encounter, she immediately started talking about having a voyeuristic / exhibitionistic threesome with Joyce. It seems he’s just playing along to make her happy at this point. I don’t see him as having her on a pedestal at all.
So, I mean, at that age — I don’t really see how there would even have been any expectation of exclusivity in a relationship (or a serial hookup on repeat, as with Dorothy and Walky) that’s just barely a single week old. Honestly, I wouldn’t even call a one-week snuggle a “relationship” at that point. It sounds like Joe and Joyce have had a grand total of one actual “going out” official date. And I don’t think Walky and Dorothy have even gone on one date: just hopping into bed a couple of times.
I hesitate even to use a word like “monogamy”, because to me, that implies marriage. But I’m of the opinion that a couple would actually have a talk about whether they wished to he exclusive together, rather than just expecting exclusivity right off the bat.
And I really don’t actually see a single afternoon of kissing as even “cheating” in any major sense. I mean, yes, post-COVID world, everyone needs to get a partner’s permission before swapping spit outside the circle, ’cause of potential infection exposure. But back when I was their age? Nobody thought about that. Kissing was just kissing, and young folks were always hooking up (kissing) with one young person or another, without expectation of a property sole-possession ownership interest in each other’s lips.
I dunno… maybe young folks just got more conservative since I was that age! Or maybe folks are more conscientious now because of the germs out there these days. Or maybe I never once had the right of it, and I’ve been wrongheaded and misguided from the start.
I do understand that I am going to be absolutely pilloried for expressing this —
…I’m just surprised to see such moral scolding. I’m thinking maybe we cut the youngsters some slack and just let them be youngsters and figure stuff out in their own time.
I did much dumber stuff at that age.
But social attitudes on sexuality have changed — and grown much more conservative — since I was younger. Makes me glad to be done and over with all that stuff now. Sometimes, it’s a welcome relief to just set all those desires and feelings aside. I really don’t miss them at all. Everything is too complicated, these days!
You’re simply having a culture shock. Your little bubble didn’t assume exclusivity by default, but most others still do. Conversely, I’m a bit confused by the concept of “official date”; relationships don’t need to involve that strange ritual at all – not where I come from.
Fun useless fact: monogamy implies marriage etymologically. But the meanings of words change.
Official date is a weird concept to be sure. But exclusivity requires an agreement to be exclusive. The agreement can be tacit, but must be communicated. Attempting to impose exclusivity without consent is just wrong.
But no one here is doing that. We’re talking about what the characters likely think and likely understand about their relationships. There’s no valid argument that Joe, Joyce, Dorothy or Walky don’t think of their relationships as exclusive. Walky’s probably the most questionable.
I firmly agree that it would great to encourage talking about this stuff more openly and directly, but falling back on “We didn’t talk about it, so me going out and having sex with someone else wasn’t cheating” doesn’t actually win you anything except an excuse. It’s not going to make the partner you care about any less hurt and upset, is it? And shouldn’t that actually be the point?
I gotta agree with thejeff here. If I was dating someone and it was getting serious and I suddenly discovered they were dating/sleeping with other people, I WOULD be upset and hurt. And I don’t think a response of “well you never said we needed to be exclusive” would do anything but shift the blame, particularly because on the flip side, “well you never said we were in an open relationship”.
Such things SHOULD be communicated and consented to, it’s also a two way street. One also has to admit that the societal expectation would mean that there’s an assumption of exclusivity. That’s the baseline for the majority of people, hence why it needs to be communicated if someone is NOT looking for a monogamous relationship.
On the gripping hand, while it is the baseline assumption, more communication is always good and relying on assumptions is always risky, so it’s best to communicate that even if you’re looking for the assumed default monogamy.
I mean, it’s not really ten days, is it? As I said the other day, we are in comic book time. At a certain point it becomes useless to use in-universe days as a yardstick. Joe/Joyce is, in real terms, a relationship that goes back years.
I just turned 40 this year. When I was in school, the main gossip was always who’s going out with who, and who broke up, and who cheated on who. Our TV mostly followed this formula. If a teenage character had a romantic interest, they started as “the crush” for how long, then they became “the boy/girlfriend” Boy Meets World, Sabrina, Home Improvement, etc. They all hammered in pretty hard that being boyfriend/girlfriend implied exclusivity.
Well, except for the “going steady” plotline. Sabrina had that one. Harvey’s asks her to go steady and she gets so crazy excited. I, no joke, asked my parents what that meant, and they explained it just like you did – oh, you’re not exclusive until that point, it’s not expected. Me and my sisters thought that was crazy.
To illustrate further. The summer after senior year, there was a girl that I was “going out with” for like a month. In that we kissed a total of twice, and hung out together a few times. But then later that summer, right before college started, I was hanging out with another friend of mine and we kissed. I remember *very specifically* that I got an angry letter from her older brother saying I broke her heart and that I better hope he never runs into me. And when I told my college girlfriend over a year later (the person I eventually married) she nearly broke up with me because she couldn’t believe she was dating “a cheater.”
For me, Joyce and Joe’s relationship being nine days old makes her cheating much less a big deal than it could be, but it’s still cheating. I don’t think it would be just by default for anyone you could say “they’ve been dating for nine days” about, but there are details to every relationship. For Joyce and Joe, I’d note:
1. She said they were in a monogamous relationship (to Dorothy).
2. There’s definitely been an expectation that Joe not pursue other women during this time.
3. They had built a friendship first, and things became romantic when Joe confessed his feelings, which were pretty strong. This makes it different to me than the start of a relationship where you might go out a couple times to get to know each other and see if there are any feelings there; these two began with that established.
For Dorothy and Walky, there seems to be at least some view of resuming the previous, serious relationship they had. From my perspective, it’s really not; things feel different this time. But that can vary (resume vs reset) with real couples getting back together, and they (Dorothy and Walky) might have different expectations for what’s happening between them than is really accurate.
And then, yes, norms differ in different spaces and times, and there will always be relationships outside those norms too. Like, my grandparents meet one night, dated for two weeks got married, and moved to Colombia. They were happily (from everything I’ve gathered) married the rest of their lives. And sometimes people say “well, back then–” but that’s just part of how norms can go back and forth over time– and no, it was still pretty unusual for back then.
So. There’s not a real point to this other than a nine day relationship *could* be over halfway toward marriage, I guess.
While I do think there’s some expectation of monogamy here that kissing someone else does breach… I’m also kind of baffled by the “cheating” accusation. If they kept it from their partners, and especially if they kept doing it, sure. If they went further than kissing, sure.
But kissing someone and immediately coming clean to / breaking up with your partner? That’s only cheating in the most tenuous possible sense. It’s only a betrayal in the same sense that leaving your partner for someone else is – it sucks, it really sucks, but it’s not a terrible act of immorality, and whether your lips meet just before or just after the breakup isn’t really relevant.
The act of kissing is itself cheating. It is a breach of the monogamous relationship and a betrayal of trust. I don’t understand what is difficult about this. Coming clean immediately might affect how forgiving the partner might be, but the act of cheating has already happened.
Huh. Well, thank you all for schooling me so very gently. Honestly, I was expecting outrage, given how heated the comments on this topic can get. I appreciate you all for not pillorying me. (Yet. “The night is young…” — I may dumb again!)
And — yeah. I guess I’ve had the wrong of it. Funny — how so long can pass since one was young and dumb, and one is still learning lessons one should have already jnown back then.
Well, thank you, folks, for the gentle education! 🙂 I guess times and cultures really did change. Or maybe I was simply wrong all along.🤔
I still think it’s a huge shame if kids today really don’t see any need to check in with one another before assuming they’re in a serious committed relationship now.
This certainly isn’t the case if you met through a dating app, at least in my experience, which is… I’d say a good chunk of how dating works for queer people who don’t have a nearby queer bar where it’s nominally safer to shoot your shot with strangers.
Not that ye olde 1950s “I’d like to go steady, how do you feel about that?” conversation made specific room for poly people, but at least it was a conversation: an opportunity for your partner(?) to say no, they don’t want to go steady with you, before anyone’s feelings get hurt through miscommunication.
This may or may not be relevant to Joe and Joyce, but the number of folks who have confidently asserted that you should just assume exclusivity immediately really does concern me.
I think there’s some cloudiness to Dorothy and Walky’s current arrangement, but it’s completely unambiguous with Joe and Joyce. They are 100% in an exclusive, monogamous relationship.
I agree that they’ve both indicated they think this at various points! But they didn’t actually have a conversation about it. Joyce assumed that masturbating (all by herself!) was problematic, and Joe tried to reassure her that it wasn’t, then they both got distracted by the “laundry room” situation.
Also pls don’t confuse this for me saying Joyce and Dorothy weren’t cheating! I genuinely just think the number of folks who have said this should be the default assumption and indicated that the idea of needing to talk about it first was weird seem, to me, like an invitation to hurt feelings.
I agree that, in the abstract, people should have conversations about the bounds of relationships when they get together. That’s how I operate.
Is that how most people, in a society where monogamy is the default, operate? Is it how Joyce, until recently a fundamentalist Christian who was intending to engage in a traditional courtship, would operate? Is it how Joe would operate?
Talking about people as a whole? I don’t know! I thought conversations were happening until the comment section started suggesting otherwise, but I’m in my little queer bubble and there are definitely different rules.
(Like, the common idea that it would be a bro-code violation for, let’s say, Joe to start dating Dorothy after Danny and Dorothy split up? Or that it’s weird to keep being friends with an ex?
That’s a thing in mainstream Straight Society, but decidedly not a thing in more insular subcultures: like queer friend groups, but also like, say, theater kids. More insular subgroups tend to instead lead to “everyone’s got at least three exes within the friend group, and we all keep being friends”.)
As for Joyce and Joe specifically: well, now I’m gonna bring out my “Joyce’s motivations” cork board again, because while I tend to think yes, they both assumed they were monogamous and exclusive — and they’ve both definitely said things to that effect! — one of my theories is still: “did Joyce somehow misinterpret what Joe was saying about masturbation?”
BUT I WANNA BE VERY CLEAR, this is me guessing Joyce’s motivations, and not a rationalization that would make what she’s doing harmless. I don’t think it’s harmless! I think there might be a tragic misunderstanding in here somewhere, but it would only be a mitigating factor.
To be fair, I’m far removed from “kids these days”, but I don’t think that’s really true. I certainly don’t think it’s reflected in the relationships we’ve seen here. As you say, it doesn’t apply to dating app hookups and I would say in a similar fashion it wouldn’t apply to picking someone up at a bar or a party.
There isn’t the same kind of 50’s formalized dating/going steady dichotomy, but that’s not the same thing. Instead it’s tied up in things like Dorothy and Walky talking about “we’re back together” or Joe and Joyce agreeing they’re boyfriend and girlfriend.
Most people here aren’t actually saying “you should just assume exclusivity immediately”, but that it’s risky to just assume poly will be acceptable, after you’re serious enough to consider it a relationship rather than just a casual date. This I think is where there’s a collision between two different question leading to confusion.
No one, for example, is arguing that Old Joe was cheating because each time he had sex it implied an exclusive relationship. Or Roz. Or Ethan when he was having fun before the timeskip. This only comes up with people who actually treat it as a relationship, even if we didn’t see an explicit conversation exclusivity.
I mean. First, I really really have to pick a nit about your wording.
Not all dating apps are Grindr. Not all queer bars are “pick up” scenes. When I talked about my experience with dating apps, I was very much talking about looking for a long-term relationship. There’s nothing wrong with people who prefer more casual relationships, but dating apps don’t “presume non-exclusive until asked”, either. My experience was MUCH more like the 1950s situation, where after a couple of dates go well, you have a conversation.
But there’s definitely a wealth of situations between “assume immediate monogamy” and “assume polyamory unless otherwise stated”. I’m not arguing for either.
I’m talking about, for example, how TV portrayals are apparently showing teenagers immediately assuming monogamy the second they’ve been on a date, and how I think that’s a shame, if that’s reflective of how kids today are operating.
Not because there’s anything wrong with monogamy! I can’t stress enough that I’m mono myself. But because communication is good!
I know the 1950s “going steady” conversation was part of a larger attitude of sex negativity — the videos that showed what were supposed to be teenagers having those conversations were inevitably also very pro-abstinence and full of rigid gender norms!! — but if we’ve moved away from that model so completely that we’re encouraging assumption over conversation, yeah, I think that’s a shame.
Fair nit on the wording. My intent there though however badly phrased wasn’t to limit it just to casual sex, but to any kind of set up that leads to “get to know you” type dates. Whether that’s an app, blind dates like Ruth and Daisy, whatever. That kind of thing doesn’t lead to an immediate presumption of exclusivity or that the dates will continue, for that matter.
It does eventually lead to a discussion about whether it’s a relationship or just a few dates, which I think kind of parallels the old “going steady” discussion.
But the discussion is likely to be framed in those terms, rather than in exclusive terms. It’s the exclusivity, once the relationship is understood to be serious, that is assumed. Not that a single date means it’s serious.
I still think much of the confusion here is from a conflation of the two, with some people saying that monogamy is the default assumption for a serious relationship and others hearing that no one talks about relationship status at all.
Complicated by Willis not writing about relationships that start with casual dating, but more ones where the tension builds before anything starts so they’re relatively serious from the beginning.
Now, interestingly, I checked dictionaries and found that some of them do define “go steady” as “to date one person exclusively”, while others just defined it as a more serious type of dating.
So I definitely thought “go steady” was synonymous with being exclusive, rather than a more nebulous term about seriousness, and that’s informed my whole half of this conversation.
But I was, yes, getting the impression that conversations aren’t happening at all: that people are just taking it as “read” that a relationship is going to be both serious and monogamous without any kind of actual checking-in, because that’s what I thought I was hearing about the mentioned pop culture portrayals of dating, and because several people indicated that they thought a formal conversation was kind of stuffy and unnecessary — not just that it makes sense to assume Joyce and Joe were exclusive, but that the idea of not assuming was weird, and that people who didn’t make that same assumption were going to hurt people…
…and that latter declaration just seems like any type of assumption is gonna hurt people! If you’ve never had this check-in before, and you’ve never hurt or been hurt by mismatched assumptions, you’ve been lucky.
some might say that Joyce has a terrible poker face, but this is actually a *terrific* “poke-her face”, as in “god i need to get my fingers on and inside dorothy right this second”
to be fair its one of those things where she knows all her friends would be fine and have expressed as much with it, and its not like they know jocelyn personally or anything
Not only that, but it’s purely coincidence that Sarah wasn’t around when Jocelyne was. If she had been, she would have met her and been “outed”, like she was to half the rest of the floor. She didn’t seem to have any issues with the rest of them.
Would she? Not long ago Dorothy didn’t tell her about Carla because of the possibility of Joyce being weird about it. Is Joyce going to know exactly what Jocelyne would want, regarding the discretion of people she’s barely or never met?
Again, it’s purely chance Jocelyne didn’t meet Sarah when she was in the dorm before and she didn’t seem to have any problem meeting any of Joyce’s friends then.
Assuming she’s staying around, she’ll likely run into Sarah sooner or later. Be easier if she knows up front.
I feel like people are reading a lot of “oh, clearly Sarah absolutely knows about Joyce’s secrets from beforehand and has seen pictures already” into a strip where Joyce is, with her mouth, out loud, saying things like “wait, I never told you, did I? Wait, should I even tell you?”, which I think most people would consider… pretty indicative of secret-harboring.
So, thinking on things, what does Joyce think is going to happen between herself and Dorothy? What does Dorothy think? It feels like Dorothy is very convinced that she and Joyce are now a couple, and she wants as gentle a split from the existing partners in their lives to accomplish that. But as has been typical for this arc, we don’t actually know Joyce’s thoughts on the matter, and it’s not like Joyce and Dorothy have had a serious conversation about it.
Was it just kissing?
Was it kissing and we’re together now?
Was it that thing Billie said about best friends?
That’s also going to affect how Sarah and the others react to being informed of what happened.
Yeah. Speaking of unstated assumptions! They appear to have split up (possibly to shower before telling their boyfriends, possibly to get the phones they left behind?) without actually agreeing on anything beyond “we need to tell them”.
Very possible that they think they’re on exactly the same page, but one of them is going to break up with their boyfriend to start a new relationship while the other apologizes and promises it won’t ever happen again!
Considering the author described the big scene at the protest as “a marriage,” I think it’s extremely unlikely that either of them don’t see themselves as in a relationship now.
Kind of thing where ideally she’d ask Jocelyne how she wants Joyce to handle it, and Jocelyne would probably say it’s fine for Joyce to tell her friends/people she trusts.
Hey Jocelyne, what level of disclosure would you prefer…
– with close friends I trust that you have also met?
– with friends I trust that don’t know you at all?
– with people I have reason to think are cool (like I met them at a questioning meet-up), but don’t know that well?
– with classmates I don’t think you’ve ever met?
– with future coworkers you might or might not ever meet?
– with total strangers?
And by “level of disclosure” I mean, there’s referring to Jocelyne vaguely, as in “I have three siblings”; there’s referring to Jocelyne just as “I have a sister” (without naming names); there’s referring to Jocelyne by name as a sister…
…and then there’s varying degrees of talking about Jocelyne as trans. “I have trans friends and family members” being the vaguest, not outing any specific person, something that you might feel compelled to say while talking about politics. There’s “I have a trans family member,” which is potentially more identifying. There’s “I have a trans sister,” which is even more so. And then if course there’s “my trans sister, Jocelyne”.
Saying you have siblings isn’t very identifying, but from Joyce, someone who’s consistently said not only that she has three older brothers but also that she wishes she had a sister, it’s potentially a bit more attention-getting, depending on who she tells.
I think cheating won’t come up again but I don’t think they’re the endgame Willis seems to think they are. They don’t have the bulletproof energy Dina/Becky and Sal/Danny have.
Cheating is a pretty common thing in romantic drama. By Willis’s own words, his aversion to writing it was holding back his ability to write a danged story without it dissolving into therapy speak from college freshmen.
This iteration of Dorothy+Joyce isn’t endgame, IMO. Dorothy has a lot of issues that can cause an issue. I think the timeline is going to depend on which one is the issue. In universe, I’m thinking around five days or around a month. Not sure I can explain it, but I don’t think it will be two-ish weeks.
“This romantic drama about college freshmen being flawed people going through romantic drama would be a much better one if it was about a cozy witch trying to find her neighbor’s lost cat in the alps. Also Joyce and Dorothy are real people who should be discussed as if they are my real life friends.”
– the comments this arc
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Secrets. Plural. 🥪
She can have one!
Joyce can have little a secret, as a treat
There can be only one!
It’s just a compound secret.
Secrets? What secrets? That’s the face of someone without any secrets whatsoever
She says, staring into the camera.
Joyce is having a hard time with the whole, “not revealing someone’s without their permission” thing.
She’s been having trouble with doing a lot of things without permission lately
She’s trying; she’s not doing great, but she’s trying to do better.
Oh no I would say she is absolutely failing spectacularly
Failing? Yes, but she’s still trying. With enough practice maybe she’ll only be half-failing.
and then eventually she won’t be failing at all and you’ll wish you’d gotten in on- what was I saying?
No idea; I try not to think too hard. My brain isn’t handling basic things well right now, but I started my new meds. So fingers crossed it helps?
Good luck! The med-transition is hard. We’re here for ya! You can do it!
@Laura Thank you, I always get a little anxious when my doctor changes my medication/dosage. So I’m trying to not think about it too much, and just let the meds do their job.
Sending hopes! 🕯🌻🌿
Definitely good luck from this internet stranger too.
Owwwwwwww, fuck
The best part of DoA and Joyce is that because of the glacial pace of time actually progressing we’ve endured and will continue to enjoy years of Joyce trying.
And she can be very trying.
Not sure I can agree with this anymore.
Succeeding in not misgendering her sister while also outing her sister to everyone.
I think, while she is trying real hard, and failing, it speaks to a level of deep acceptance for her sister that she hardcore just forgets its a thing she needs to not reveal to others. Largely cause that’s one of my hurdles as an autistic when it comes to anyone I know in that sphere. It takes a lot of concentrated effort on my part to use the ‘safe pronouns’ when speaking to people who don’t know, so much so that I actually screw up and sometimes misgender friends when I’m with them.
They laugh it off whenever I feel like shit for doing it and point out they do it too, cause that’s the world we live in, where people have to hide to protect themselves. Its a sad state of affairs but its sometimes harder for people with different mental issues to make that adjustment, particularly some tistics.
I’ve been fortunate that I’ve had friends explain their situation early so I don’t develop a habit of using the wrong pronouns, and misgender them unless, like you said, it’s in front of someone who doesn’t know.
The only time it was difficult was with someone I was dating, and I was not comfortable talking about them in front of my family who is mostly conservative for obvious reasons.
It is one of those pretty big life events she wants to discuss. As she probably mentioned to Sarah she has only brothers, and now she has a sister, and that makes everything pronoun-wise awkward if you’re not going to out them.
In her defense, “when do I lie about my sibling” can be a tricky question to answer, especially when one is already wound up and distracted.
There’s the Sarah Glare!
It’s been too long since we were able to enjoy it.
She’s been saving them up. The nice times she’s having with Tony means she doesn’t have to distribute them all over the place, she can keep them in reserve for special occasions such as this.
Means when she DOES bust ‘em out, they’re super potent!
“Uhhhh LOOK OVER THERE I’M DISTRACTING YOU”
I see they’re going with the idea of needing to tell their soon to be ex boyfriends *first* before anyone else.
Which is actually rather honorable. You know… all things considered.
Too bad Joyce’s poker face is garbage. I wonder if Dorothy will be any better.
I mean, after Sal, then Raidah, and now Sarah, I think it’s pretty obvious that this secret really isn’t secret.
Except for the part where they didn’t tell Raidah or Sarah, at least not yet for Sarah. And they didn’t so much tell Sal as she see them.
I don’t think Joyce wants to break up with Joe. Seems to me he scratches wants for her that Dorothy dorsn’t.
But Dorothy’s I-Need—To-Suppress-My-Sexual-Desire-And-Jealosuy-For-Joyce-boyfriend has got to go </3
“Joyce attempts a polyamory” does not strike me as something with a high possibility of success, but I’m very surprised by how plausible it feels
It is the exact sort of idiot solution. Polyamory not from any actual shared feelings or thoughts on a multiple partner relationship, but just on “this makes everyone happy!”
Sometimes you don’t make people happy.
Then you aren’t using enough high explosives.
*high-five*
If blowing things up* doesn’t make everyone equally** happy, you didn’t use a big enough explosion
*literally or metaphorically
**’equally’ is no guarantee of a particular happiness level
I really wanna see her try though, for so many reasons. I think it COULD work, but still be really messy and clumsy for a nice long stretch first, and then we’d have a poly relationship front and center…!
My hopes have fallen but it remains a nice little dream.
To me, that feels like the least contrived explanation for her right now, but like, she also feels like a slider or she went through a timeskip none of the other characters did and she’s just not resonating with me long enough to for me to think through it.
Dorothy breaks up with Walky first, very diplomatically (gets yelled at) only to find out that Joyce couldn’t bring herself to do the same with Joe and she tries to keep Dorothy a secret. Extremely unlikely since they’re the endgame ship apparently and that seems like it should be a relationship ending faux pas, but it would be interesting.
Endgame? Possibly.
But Willis will probably be doing this until they’re 70.
I mean, it took fifteen years to go from move-in day to, what, February? At the rate of three years per month, graduation’s going to be in 2160.
Better get working on building that buffer, I think.
Compromise: say Jocelyne was an evil twin who grew up in the attic. Y’know, normal fundie stuff.
Huh, a thought occurred to me. How good is Sarah at keeping secrets? Y’know, outside of avoiding people like the plague.
I think she’d keep a secret for Joyce (at least, about Joss, if she felt like Joyce was going to get hurt by keeping something a secret like her feelings for Dorothy she might not).
“Those were secret?”
Wasn’t Sarah in hot water with Raidyah’s group literally for sharing someone’s secrets? Gee, that’s not gonna come up again.
Sarah will keep a secret up until it’s getting in her way or she thinks it needs to be shared, so she’s completely untrustworthy unless you know you’re opinion. Generally she seems not-homophobic so she probably won’t share, but if she was anti-trans she definitely would.
She’s in trouble with Raidah’s group for telling an 18/19 yos dad that his kid was struggling with addiction due to grief and needed help.
That actually is a secret that’s totally fine to share with someone the person-in-trouble trusts.
She also protected her scholarship by telling, rather than just letting Dana drag them both down. Which is also totally allowed, she didn’t have to burn her future for a near-stranger.
I don’t think a secret from Joyce is going to fall in the same category, and I think the idea that this makes her “completely untrustworthy” is laughable at best, histrionic at worst.
And that kid was thrown out of school, and sent back to who knows what sort of home life labeled as a drug abuser. With the right family that gets you thrown out on the street, beaten, etc.
No, Sarah is not trustworthy with secrets. She will do what she thinks is best, which may or may not be the best. That doesn’t mean she’s an evil person, it means that you have to be very careful with what you tell her.
She was not thrown out by the school, her family pulled her from the University after Sarah contacted them about her spiraling.
Dana was not seeking help for her depression nor allowing her friend group to know she was in need of help. Sarah was unable to get Raidah’s group that Dana was in trouble. Dana’s use of weed reached a level that it was impacting Sarah’s health mentally and physically. In addition to her scholarship.
Nowhere in the narrative was there a indication that her family was abusive.
Sarah is not obligated to take harm in keeping another person’s self destruction hidden.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/absolve/
This was Raidah and Sarah’s differing framing of the issue. Raidah saying Dana’s not in a better place according to Dana is as close as we’ve gotten to any indication that Dana’s home life is unsafe, and I do think Raidah would have been more blunt here if she meant more.
Best to call Jocelyne and ask her if she is okay with telling Sarah.
I doubt Joyce is thinking clearly enough to realize she can do that
Probably should have gone over that in the first place when she found out. Knowing what she can and cannot say around others seems pretty important.
Jocelyn is probably in jail right now. Or the hospital.
No? Last we saw she got out of Dunn Meadow with the others.
I choose to believe the only person arrested was Mary.
🙂
In fact it looks like Jocelyne got out before Joyce and Dorothy. So she’s probably safe.
Because Jocelyne, unlike these two idiots, mostly has her head on
straightlevel and came to terms with her identity a while back.I bet Jocelyne had a change of clothes ready too, instead of running around in an “ask me how I resisted arrest” shirt.
She may not have picked up her phone yet.
Joycelene literally does not have her phone. This is a plot point.
Some neat faces in this one
I feel like this one might be uncontroversial and no one will argue about it
New here, are you?
I’m just full of naive hope and belief in humanity
Tell me more about your universe. It sounds like a nice place.
You get there by finding a nice hole in the sand and sticking your head in
We are probably still a few weeks out from a truly uncontroversial strip. They’re rare to begin with honestly
It’s currently LESS controversial (by the numbers)? We did get into an argument last time over whether or not this sort of thing is “outing”, though, and we could easily rehash it.
the real answer that everybody is generally dissatisfied with is
it’s complicated and nuanced
Yep!
NUH UH
It did just occur to me after the gym scene that Sarah is now approving of Joe and then Joyce goes and cheats on him. This should be fun at least.
I hadn’t thought about that; wonder if Joe and Sarah will still be on friendly terms after Joyce talks to him to discuss her cheating.
I think Joe and Sarah will, mostly because I lowkey suspect they might get together at some point because their self-improvement arcs are similar. I think Sarah will be a little cross at Joyce. Not very cross, just a quick “Bro, really?”
I think she cares for Joyce a lot more than Joe (obviously), so I can’t imagine there any being lasting irritation longer than like… the single strip it’s in. But she is a lot more open about caring about her friend group as of recently, which is the only reason I envision her being irritated at all.
Outside of the affected dudes, the only ones I see getting really irritated about this are Dina, Becky (for entirely personal reasons), Billie (I really hope, just because she’s always mean to Walky and I would like to see her stick up for him just once), aaaaaaand… that’s basically it.
I don’t envision Danny getting involved, I do envision him accidentally starting a fight with Sal over it. Amber is a trash goblin who maybe can get back together with Walky at some point and I think was secretly rooting for this or something? Jacob I can see getting Very Upset, but he’s not really a main character.
OH WAIT. I FORGOT DANNY WAS JOE’S BEST FRIEND. Yeah, Danny’s gonna have beef. And if Sal doesn’t, they’re gonna have beef too, Danny has blown up his own ships before for… I guess not less, but like, he’s got bad foot-in-mouth disease and I can see him quickly getting frustrated if he hops in to defend Joe (especially the New Not Annoying Joe) only to get Sal literally not caring, and him not understanding the really complicated web of reasons she has to not get emotionally involved.
this also means we may get the ultimate reversal of the Danny/Joe dynamic: Danny imploring Joe to Please Have a Spine and some Self-Respect, while Joe absolutely refuses to, because it’s actually much harder than Danny is making it seem.
He also called Dorothy out on her desire to cheat previously so it’s not the first time
Jacob getting very upset at who?
He’s friends with Joe and Joyce. But he’s not in position to judge.
Will he get mad for Walky after scooping up his ex and spurning Sarah.
I thought he was fairly decent friends with Joe and after Joyce did her thing with him, he seemed to have a significantly lowered opinion of her. Her violating another relationship of someone close to him with more or less the same issue going on would probably peeve him off. Like, he basically lost her as an actual friend more or less over the Raidah thing, he has pretty strong feelings about loyalty and respecting the sanctity of relationships (evidenced by him immediately dumping Raidah after the kiss and then refusing to reward himself by dating Joyce.) I mean, he was also midkey on a weird high horse iirc, but he has reasons to be more irritated with her personally than many of the other cast members. Whether it ever comes up, idk, that’s why he was at the bottom of my list. Dude can be super disappointed and possibly even dislike someone without harping at them. He’s not Rachel lol.
Yeah, Jacob’s not likely to be actually mad about it. More like “twice is a pattern” and “I warned you, Joe”.
I really want to see Billie stand up for Walky, at least to Dororthy.
I’m starting to think that one of the biggest complications WILL be that many people in Joyce’s inner circle, have taken a genuinely liking to Joe, and respect him. Dina considers him a real friend, now, and it seems like Sarah does, too.
Joyce is really not prepared for how many people, who she considers “safe” people to her, are going to react justifiably badly at what she’s done.
I’ve mentioned this before but a chief difference between now and back when Joyce was doing her thing with Ethan – by far worse than cheating in my opinion – is that Sarah cares now. She’s invested in the friend group. She will not be ambivalent this time.
Joyce’s thing with Ethan, whatever else it was, was consensual from all parties involved. It wasn’t healthy for Ethan, but everybody involved was completely informed about what was going on.
That’s not the case with this bit.
Joyce’s arrangement with Ethan was a repulsively homophobic attempt to convert him to heterosexuality. It might actually be the worst thing Joyce has ever done in the strip. Cheating is bad, and wrong, but it’s not perpetuating systemic violence against a minority group.
Like let’s make no bones about it: Ethan agreeing to that was a form of self-harm.
This can be true, while also acknowledging the reality that it’s completely unreasonable to expect somebody from Joyce’s exact background to understand this fact, and be able to act in accordance to it. Of course that was a completely reasonable thing to do, for somebody who is completely ignorant to all of the context of what she was doing, unaware of the harms, and primed to see what Ethan was trying to do as reasonable.
Like did she enable him? Yes! But, how the hell would you expect her to be able to see why what she did was wrong?
In short, I have trouble holding her accountable for doing something that she couldn’t have reasonably understood the problem with, or consequences of. If someone walks into a room and leans on a lever, and they didn’t know that moving the lever would kill 100 people, you wouldn’t reasonably attribute intent or malice to their leaning, even with the dire consequences.
I’m not saying she should be pilloried for what she did. Once she had the full context for why what she was doing was wrong, she put an end to it and was extremely distraught. She’s paid her dues for it, certainly.
But it was still the worst thing she’s ever done.
That’s just one more reason to think that the exact same outcome is coming for her on infidelity, IMO. There’s just no way she isn’t underselling the seriousness of what she’s done to herself, because she’s not grasping something that is obvious to everybody who has been socialized more adequately.
I know it was played for laughs, but there IS the fact that on Joyce and Joe’s first date ever, she paid Mike to sit in with them and physically assault Joe periodically.
Not to say that Ethan wasn’t bad, but I don’t remember it happening that “Oh, I’m trying to convert him!” Rather, HE asked HER out and they were together for a while before he told her that he was attracted to men but wanted to see if he could also be attracted to women. And she went along with it because she was afraid of her own sexuality and of men in general, and after the near-rape at the party, felt safe with him.
Joyce was a bit naive on the details, and Ethan was certainly pushing himself due to pressure from his parents… but he wasn’t being pushed by Joyce. She had heard of “conversion therapy” as a good thing, of course, which is why she was willing to go along with his idea, bit it WAS his idea.
…also, don’t you remember how Amber reacted, when she learned that it WASN’T the churchey little conservative trying to convert the gay man, but rather Ethan trying to see if he wasn’t actually a Kinsey 7 after all? It was, tearfully, “So you’ll try with her, but you won’t try with me?”
Is that the worst thing that Amber has done? Because Joyce just went along with it; Amber was actively angry and hurt that Ethan would choose to do it with someone other than her.
Yeah, I’m going to say that paying someone to physically assault her date through the night is worse. Joyce / Ethan is only horrible if you make her out to be the provocateur and the one putting pressure on him to change, instead of being led along cluelessly until finally she learns that Ethan’s actually hurting himself.
Joyce was also just dealing with trauma from attempted rape and a boy who made her feel safe because he was both protective and not interested at all helped there. That doesn’t make it good, but more understandable.
It was also 4 days from him telling her he was gay to her breaking up with him.
Y’all keep explaining Joyce’s motivations in the situation as if I don’t understand them. I do! That’s part of why I don’t hold it against her too much!
Sarah might be our second Relationship Paladin cast member, probably not as extreme as Danny’s “cheating means you’re morally bankrupt”. But she cares about Joyce and when she’s making mistakes, she’s giving Joe a second chance, and she knows having a SO ‘stolen’ hurts. 1) It hurt when Liz did it to her, 2) it was how Sarah was trying to hurt Raidah.
Relationship Paladins: Danny, Sarah(?), Sal, Dina, probably Lucy, Leslie, Jason, Asher
Sickos: Amber, Booster, Ruth, Carla, Robin
Recused due to direct involvement: Joyce, Dorothy, Joe, Walky
Honestly don’t know: Becky
I don’t think Ruth is gonna really care beyond whatever blowup this might cause in the wing.
She really can’t judge too harshly. She did everything to block joe and was principally responsible for encouraging Dorothy to go after Joyce. Or maybe she will judge since she predicted this. But she probably hastened this a little.
*blink*
what
They just say shit, sometimes.
Leave the kettle alone, pot.
Hey, it makes complete sense if you assume that Sarah is Amazigirl.
What, I’m not allowed to notice things now? Censorship Andy over here.
Sarah went to Dorothy’s door and knocked on it urgently, calling for her to come hook up with Joyce to prevent Joe/Joyce from happening, as almost the very first reaction she had to hearing they were a couple.
But Dorothy slept through the knocking, as far as we know, and it was Sarah’s only such attempt.
Supporting link: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/01-everybodys-looking-for-nothing/entice/
Haha, thank you.
(Also for folks wondering why I think Dorothy slept through the knocking rather than ignoring it with an off-panel reaction: check the alt text.)
Heh. I had forgotten about that.
Also “I am intentionally soliciting interactions with other people!” would have been a good title for that volume.
that’s not “principally responsible”.
I wasn’t agreeing with Adam Black.
I should have been clearer, but my point was like, “The closest Sarah came to doing that was this incident, I can maybe see how someone might misremember it I guess.”
There’s a chance Joyce and Dorothy cheating might upset a bunch of their friend group, way more than just Joe, Walky, and Becky. Some of them might not care as much, but I’d like to hope some of them are bothered by the cheating.
I doubt Amber would care much, Ruth seems like she’d express exhaustion with their freshman antics, Billie set herself up as the scapegoat, Dina may be annoyed with them for upsetting Becky and being skeezoids, Sal seems to think they’re doing it already, Danny wears a hat, Ethan is too busy getting railed and moping, Lucy is too busy getting railed and laughing, Jacob already has experience with Joyce’s relationship bombing, Asher’s a satellite, Mike is dead, Booster might have to listen to Walky crying, Carla, Malaya isn’t a factor, neither is Marcie, and I’m probably forgetting a couple of characters. Those seem like the most obvious considerations to me.
“I doubt Amber would care much.” To the contrary, this was her plan when she was encouraging Dorothy to send Joyce a carefully lit shot of her secondary sex characteristics. So that Walky would be available. This was a plan that Booster admired. Amazigirl was less impressed.
Too lazy to provide links.
The interesting question is how Amber would react when the plan goes through exactly as intended and Wally is low again. It’s one thing to want this in the abstract, another to have it happen. And if he ever found out she had a hand in intentionally busting him and Dorothy up? Well.
Break her like a Kit Kat Bar Sarah, She might even like it!
She should really get some set parameters for people she can tell from Jocelyne. She might be able to work better off of clear visible boundaries.
Yeah, but this would require her not to assume that she should just get everything about this right, reflexively, with no work and no outside help. And she’s sure as hell not gonna think of something that crazy…
“I’m gay for Dorothy. ”
“Yes, what’s the secret.”
“We made out. For reals.”
“Yeah. But what’s the secret.”
“Why does everyone keep saying things like that? ”
“Fine. There’s a betting pool.”
Oh God, good luck with that big sister interrogation, Joyce.
in the end, Sarah don’t care. Sarah got things to do. Sarah got places to be. XD
Remember, use of wet willies during sibling interrogation is a violation of the Geneva convention. No, not that one. This is a set of rules for intersibling conflict written by a ten year old girl named Geneva.
But was she really conventional?
She was actually quite ahead of her time.
sorry, just thought about how in the walkyverse sarah just wants to see joyce fall and in dumbiverse she just wants to see joyce thrive and got emotional for a second. i’m fine
its SO good you love to see it !!!
Okay, so like, today’s strip is especially hilarious in the context of Sarah just being Joyce’s roommate as opposed to someone with literal authority over her. I don’t mean that in a mean way, I’m just literally imagining this concept irl between two people with the comedic glare lol.
Like, I can only hear it in the same tone I use with my daughter when she’s trying to hide something she’s not supposed to have behind her back lol.
No one can no about Jocelyne. She’s a national treasure! Specifically National Treasure 2: Book of Secrets.
There’s a second National Treasure movie? When did it come out?
Google says December 2007.
There’s also a TV series on disney+ but it doesn’t have Nicholas Cage in it so what’s the point? And a third film that’s definitely 100% still happening with the original cast despite having been in the works since 2008, and Nicholas Cage saying a few years ago that he doesn’t want to do a third one
tbf isnt nic cage in a wierd tax punishment where he cant say no to movies, or did that finally resolve
Joyce: “We are currently clean on OPSEC.”
So “weird”, not plainly smelling of sweat. It’s probably the tear gas.
That is what I was thinking.
I think we can probably now safely assume the “Joyce and Dororothy’s kiss went viral” theory is not accurate, at least for the time being. Neither Raidah nor Sal nor Sarah commented on it, and between the three of them, someone would likely have seen it on social media if it had blown up.
That said, all it really takes is one wrong person with knowledge, and we don’t really know what ended up happening with Mary…
I feel like Raidah’s comment could have implied seeing something. Sarah not seeing anything on social media doesn’t 100% exclude it from being a thing since I don’t get the impression she stays super up to date on that stuff (or at least, actively seeking it out same day. I knew people in Texas who did not know about the floods for like three days or until I told them about it.) I feel like we need to see like, one more person before definitively ruling it out, personally.
Raidah would have been more direct I think.
Yeah, I do think the fact that Joyce has now reflexively told every subsequent person she has seen that her, Dorothy, and also several times her sister, were at the protest, which she was clearly instructed several times not to do, is liable to get some people into trouble.
No she hasn’t. She told Raidah they were at the protest and she told Sarah she was with her sister. 1 single piece of information per person, neither of whom are likely to communicate with each other about it
Plus she smells of tear gas. What’s she supposed to say? “That’s my new perfume, do you like it?”
Maybe she came here to get in a quick shower before she looks for Joe! Or maybe just to find her phone.
Though, while I do agree that Joyce’s current info leaks are unlikely to get anyone in trouble (neither Raidah nor Sarah would rat Jocelyne out even if they knew she was at the protest?), I do think Joyce has consistently demonstrated a profound lack of understanding around why she wasn’t supposed to bring her phone / ask for people by name.
Which is understandable! But also, yeah, COULD result in her getting some people in trouble by accident, if she keeps it up.
I don’t think it will because I don’t think Willis wants to get Jocelyne specifically in a ton of legal trouble here — but heck, I could be wrong, “Jocelyne spends the night in jail and has to be bailed out by her dad” was one of the outcomes I predicted for this storyline like a month ago.
Well, according to Jocelyne, she didn’t bring a phone because it would tie her to the site and that would be a risk since she doesn’t live there. It would have been fine for Joyce to bring her phone. Again, according to Joyce.
Sure! But I was talking about how Joyce was told several things but clearly didn’t really internalize them.
I don’t think you can safely rule out Raidah spilling the beans. She has no particular love for Joyce, and doesn’t know Jocelyne. It probably wouldn’t even register with her that it’s supposed to be a secret. The best you could hope for is that, Joyce and Joss being basically nobodies, she’d probably never give them a second thought.
On the other hand, if she that holding something like that over Joyce would give her power over Sarah, who knows? Even if she considers Sarah to be nobody, Raidah clearly hates her, and knows hurting Joyce would hurt Sarah. It just depends on how petty she actually is.
@Michelle: Oh, I definitely don’t think Raidah would do it out of the goodness of her heart, exactly. I just don’t think she would seek out an interaction with the police.
If she had the opportunity to get Joyce in trouble with, like, the school newspaper, totally.
I think we can safely rule out a viral post as being somewhat unlikely at this point. A photo on the front page of tomorrows newspaper can’t be ruled out yet.
Actually, I’d hard disagree. Between Sal being nonplussed, Raidah being automatically hostile and accusing them of attention-seeking, and now Sarah immediately accusing her of having secrets and then glaring, there is clearly SOMETHING up. If it’s not the kiss, I don’t know what.
I’ve said it a million times, Joyce and Dorothy cheating on Walky and Joe would literally splinter the group up, as they’re basically the hub of their social group. There are smaller centers of closer friends – say, Jennifer-Sal-Walky, or Becky-Dina-Amber, or Dorothy-Danny-Joe, but the glue that holds everyone together is their friends with Walky and Joyce. She is the overtly-friendly extrovert who went out of her way to make friends with everyone she could, and Walky is the charming adorable extrovert who was turning his friend group’s smoochy chart into an ouroboros. This is going to do massive collateral damage.
I mean, Sarah is also accusing Joyce of having secrets because Joyce indicated she had a secret and immediately started acting suspicious about it.
And to be clear the secret Joyce is thinking of in this specific strip doesnt actually have anything to do with the kiss but rather Jocelyne being trans
If someone’s trying to hide something, and the person they’re speaking to hasn’t expressed suspicion, they naturally lean on speaking generally and all-encompassing, instead of specifically and singular. That is because the more specific we are, the closer we sound to the truth. As an example: You might say to a suspicious landlord that you don’t have any pets, per the lease. But if you say that you don’t have *a* pet, then it starts feeling less hypothetical and more real, because you are defining quantity. Or, “I haven’t seen anyone in this area recently,” versus “I didn’t see a person over here.” Or, “I have no secrets,” versus “I don’t have a secret.”
It’s not huge, but it’s real.
On the other hand, when someone suspects that someone isn’t being truthful, they often take that generalized statement and narrow it down to a point. The landlord will not say, “I think they have animals,” but rather, “I think they have a pet.” The police officer will think not “I think there were people back here,” but “I
think the perp may have been back here.” Or Sarah might respond, not “Oh, you have secrets,” but “Oh, you’re hiding something. That’s because when uncovering the truth, one doesn’t assume a quantity until they have more information. You may or may not have pets, plural, but at the very least you have A pet you’re hiding.
This was a long-winded way of saying that, by Joyce saying “I have no secrets” and Sarah replying that “Oh, you’ve GOT secrets,” actually implies that Sarah has some knowledge of those secrets. Otherwise she would not have assumed that the inverse of Joyce saying that she had no secrets, meant that she had multiple secrets.
Also – this is a nitpick, perhaps, but I wouldn’t call Jocelyne’s existence a “secret,” per se. The fact that she has a sister can’t be a secret for all of eternity. Rather, the fact that Jocylene was AMAB kind of falls more under “none of your damn business” and “not my right to say.”
Sal and Raidah are just Like That generally and Sarah’s probably been worried for hours because Joyce disappeared and left her phone behind.
Certainly they could know more than they’ve let on, but they easily couldn’t. Not enough info to make a definitive call yet
I think Mary trying to tell Joe or Walky would be received similarly to how Danny reacted when Mike tried to tell him that Dorothy was sleeping with him: flat disbelief, made both funny and sad by Dorothy (or Joyce) almost immediately confirming that she’s technically not lying.
I bet Joyce Dad knows. Probably Joyce’s mother and whole fundie church. I bet Becky and Joe find out next. Maybe Rachel to run in joes face.
Huh, a thought occurred to me. How good is Sarah at keeping secrets? Y’know, outside of avoiding people like the plague. (for some reason, this got posted as a reply that I decided not to do after refreshing)
If they don’t inconvenience her, probably great at it. She wants peace and a piece of football-bro, not drama.
She’s probably trustworthy with things like Jocelyne. But if Joyce expects her to keep quiet about the cheating, I think that’s likely to be a much harder sell.
Not relevant to Joyce’s two secrets, she might also say something if she thought it was funny and fair game (like joking about Joyce masturbating).
She also told Becky and Dina’s sex secret to Joyce, but that was annoying, they didn’t ask her to keep it a secret.
What’s funny about this specifically, is that Joyce is likely to assume the opposite, given her and Sarah’s previous work to break up Raidah and Jacob.
She’s probably the type of person to take a secret to the grave if she thinks it’s worth keeping at all.
She kept the “Joyce is an atheist” one pretty well, IIRC.
Wasn’t Jocelyn in a dress on campus like yesterday? Something tells me she would not care
She should still check with Jocelyne. Joss is still in a very precarious and uneasy point in her coming out, and it’s common courtesy to respect whatever boundaries she might have about who does and doesn’t get to know right now.
Also there’s the fact that her sister is currently acting in opposition of the state. I don’t think Jocelyn would actually have a problem with Joyce telling a person she rightly trusts about her…but she might reasonably take umbrage with Joyce constantly bring up that she has been here, on campus, recently, when people are not supposed to know that she was here, because she has no specific right to be here.
She can’t have a right to visit her sister? Seems like she could at least use that as an excuse.
That might well have been her entire plan for coming to this specific protest, even though she had to travel for it. Killing two birds with one stone, I come out to my lil sister, and that’s my cover for being in town at a conspicuous time for no other reason.
Isn’t Jocelyne also an alum? Although not under that name . . .
I suspect it would be painful for her if she had to show ID that misgendered and deadnamed her.
I’d agree in a lot of situations, but Joyce’s (extremely chill and trustworthy) college roommate is so entirely superfluous to her life I cannot imagine how it would matter or how she would care. I think Joyce is just doing her regular well intentioned overthinking!!
I get it, but Jocelyne just came up to campus as Jocelyne and met like half of Joyce’s friends with no apparent qualms. It’s pure coincidence that Sarah wasn’t among them. That’s pretty solid evidence that she wouldn’t care.
Maybe its like Batman? Sure you want to be seen fighting injustice all dressed as your true self, but for the sake of your relationships, security, and loved ones don’t want people to recognize you as you secret identity Bruce Wayne or, in this case, Joshua Brown.
“trans people are like batman” is the most hilarious version of this explanation i have ever seen and tbh it’s pretty much dead-on?
According to Kevin Conroy, having to keep his gay identity secret let him understand Batman better.
Yeah, superhero secret identities resonate for a lot of different types of marginalization. Closeted queer folks of all stripes — but also provisional whiteness, the kind where you’re assumed to be white unless people know your surname, with which a lot of early comic book creators were extremely familiar.
Bob Kane and Stan Lee aren’t the names they were born with.
Uh-ho SpaghettiOs
Maybe it’s because I’m only in my early 30s, but that seems like a bad tagline for something you’re supposed to eat.
A friend of mine growing up claimed she had created this phrase, and this was incredibly frustrating to me even as a six year old.
Sarah’s gonna point out something that Joyce didn’t even realize about herself isn’t she
Okay so since two thirds of Joyce’s closest female friends are people who have fallen in love with her I now declare that it’s Sarah’s turn at some point 🫶 My joejoyce has fallen, my sarahjoejoyce has fallen…. now all i have is sarahjoe and sarahjoy…. if Dotty can beat the mom allegations then Sarah can beat the sister ones dammit!!!
Unlikely since she’s calling herself Joyce’s sister in this strip
Yes I’m aware. But I dislike that role for Sarah (for reasons I will not get into bc people were Weird about race in yesterdays comments) and its something I always hope will get retired with time… so i elect to dismiss it and headcanon it away as mislabeled gayisms in the interim because i can ❤️
Joyce Face, meet Sarah Face
Dammit, Joyce! You made me pull out my Surly Bongo Face! I’ve been trying not to use this!
I hope Joyce asks Jocelyne about Jordan before she leaves town. Get some spicy drama in this strip.
I think this is more evidence that the kiss was on social media and oh goodness Sarah saw it.
“I was with my big sister.”-Joyce
“I’m your big sister.”-Sarah (not knowing about Jocelyne)
Then Sarah thinks about Joyce kissing Dorothy and if that’s how Joyce treats a big sister that is the glare right now. More annoyed with that’s the cover (lie?) Joyce tried to go with than anything.
Jocelyne would have been in any picture.
That’s not how pictures work? And they can be cropped before being uploaded? If there is just a picture or video focused on Joyce and Dorothy…
Jocelyne Brown is canonically in every single photograph that has ever existed.
And if you don’t believe Taffy, go back and check the tags.
Joyce: [currently trying to figure out how to navigate not revealing her sister’s transness]
Joyce, blurting out: “Dorothy and I made out”
if this was the exact next strip i would completely believe it
“Yeah, we made out!
… of the protest. Before the cops got us!”
Good save, Joyce.
Jocelyne and Sarah will have to fight one day. One big sister must assert dominance over the other to establish a pecking order. That’s just how it goes. I don’t make the rules.
they both do the Sister Lean on Joyce, whoever slides off first is the beta sister. i don’t make the rules. technically, jocelyn does
I’m wondering how much Sarah, and probably others of Joyce’s friends and classmates, know about some of Joyce’s secrets. There’s a good chance somebody took a picture or a video of Joyce and Dorothy kissing at the protest and posted it on social media already.
The awkwardness is solidifying so quickly it’s basically turning into cheese
Aw yeah gonna make a delicious Awkward Bree with this one.
What is a college freshman?
A miserable little pile of secrets.
But enough chitchat, have at ya!
Just checking sarah+jocelyne . . . and, yes, Sarah briefly saw her (before Jocelyne was out). And presumably Joyce has previously mentioned only having brothers.
Sarah is thinking it’s drugs, isn’t she.
She has reason to vis precedent.
It’s funny that Leslie immediately figured it out with even less context and Sarah has to interrogate Joyce about it. I mean, it is entirely in character. Plus now she might have some competition for Joyce’s Big Sister position.
The words Joyce is looking for are, “Sorry, Sarah. This isn’t my secret to tell.”
Wow… I feel like I’m the only person here who’s a little blown away by all this talk of “cheating” and “infidelity”. Just thinking back to when I was that age —
Sounds like Joe ans Joyce have been dating for, like, a week, tops, based on the timeline Joyce explained to Billie and Alice. I’m quite surprised that she even wanted to have sex with Joe within the first week of dating, when she was originally scared even to kiss him — but I guess I can just chalk that up to hormones and 18 years of total sexual repression under fundamentalism. Plus the need to rebel and the “I’m on birth control now, so I might as well get this over with.” Not exactly foundations of a long-term trusting relationship. She mostly knows Joe as the reformed horndog who somehow got stuck on her.
And, Dorothy, with Walky, I mean, were they ever really back together to begin with? He had just broken up with Lucy, not quite even over her or absolutely certain things were over. And then Dorothy started freaking out and he asked her, “Dorothy, do you want sex?” To whoch she answered something like, “That’d be nice, yes, please.” But during their first “make-up sex” encounter, she immediately started talking about having a voyeuristic / exhibitionistic threesome with Joyce. It seems he’s just playing along to make her happy at this point. I don’t see him as having her on a pedestal at all.
So, I mean, at that age — I don’t really see how there would even have been any expectation of exclusivity in a relationship (or a serial hookup on repeat, as with Dorothy and Walky) that’s just barely a single week old. Honestly, I wouldn’t even call a one-week snuggle a “relationship” at that point. It sounds like Joe and Joyce have had a grand total of one actual “going out” official date. And I don’t think Walky and Dorothy have even gone on one date: just hopping into bed a couple of times.
I hesitate even to use a word like “monogamy”, because to me, that implies marriage. But I’m of the opinion that a couple would actually have a talk about whether they wished to he exclusive together, rather than just expecting exclusivity right off the bat.
And I really don’t actually see a single afternoon of kissing as even “cheating” in any major sense. I mean, yes, post-COVID world, everyone needs to get a partner’s permission before swapping spit outside the circle, ’cause of potential infection exposure. But back when I was their age? Nobody thought about that. Kissing was just kissing, and young folks were always hooking up (kissing) with one young person or another, without expectation of a property sole-possession ownership interest in each other’s lips.
I dunno… maybe young folks just got more conservative since I was that age! Or maybe folks are more conscientious now because of the germs out there these days. Or maybe I never once had the right of it, and I’ve been wrongheaded and misguided from the start.
I do understand that I am going to be absolutely pilloried for expressing this —
…I’m just surprised to see such moral scolding. I’m thinking maybe we cut the youngsters some slack and just let them be youngsters and figure stuff out in their own time.
I did much dumber stuff at that age.
But social attitudes on sexuality have changed — and grown much more conservative — since I was younger. Makes me glad to be done and over with all that stuff now. Sometimes, it’s a welcome relief to just set all those desires and feelings aside. I really don’t miss them at all. Everything is too complicated, these days!
Sorry, sorry, rant rant rant..
Corrections:
*and, not “ans”
*which, not “woch”
*I’ve been wrongheaded and misguided from the start.” — That’s — probably the likeliest explanation… *SMDH*
You’re simply having a culture shock. Your little bubble didn’t assume exclusivity by default, but most others still do. Conversely, I’m a bit confused by the concept of “official date”; relationships don’t need to involve that strange ritual at all – not where I come from.
Fun useless fact: monogamy implies marriage etymologically. But the meanings of words change.
As my ex said, If you even DREAM in the night of sex with someone else, you better wake up and apologize.
Y’all can see why I said EX, right?
Official date is a weird concept to be sure. But exclusivity requires an agreement to be exclusive. The agreement can be tacit, but must be communicated. Attempting to impose exclusivity without consent is just wrong.
But no one here is doing that. We’re talking about what the characters likely think and likely understand about their relationships. There’s no valid argument that Joe, Joyce, Dorothy or Walky don’t think of their relationships as exclusive. Walky’s probably the most questionable.
I firmly agree that it would great to encourage talking about this stuff more openly and directly, but falling back on “We didn’t talk about it, so me going out and having sex with someone else wasn’t cheating” doesn’t actually win you anything except an excuse. It’s not going to make the partner you care about any less hurt and upset, is it? And shouldn’t that actually be the point?
I gotta agree with thejeff here. If I was dating someone and it was getting serious and I suddenly discovered they were dating/sleeping with other people, I WOULD be upset and hurt. And I don’t think a response of “well you never said we needed to be exclusive” would do anything but shift the blame, particularly because on the flip side, “well you never said we were in an open relationship”.
Such things SHOULD be communicated and consented to, it’s also a two way street. One also has to admit that the societal expectation would mean that there’s an assumption of exclusivity. That’s the baseline for the majority of people, hence why it needs to be communicated if someone is NOT looking for a monogamous relationship.
On the gripping hand, while it is the baseline assumption, more communication is always good and relying on assumptions is always risky, so it’s best to communicate that even if you’re looking for the assumed default monogamy.
I mean, it’s not really ten days, is it? As I said the other day, we are in comic book time. At a certain point it becomes useless to use in-universe days as a yardstick. Joe/Joyce is, in real terms, a relationship that goes back years.
Out of curiosity, how old are you?
I just turned 40 this year. When I was in school, the main gossip was always who’s going out with who, and who broke up, and who cheated on who. Our TV mostly followed this formula. If a teenage character had a romantic interest, they started as “the crush” for how long, then they became “the boy/girlfriend” Boy Meets World, Sabrina, Home Improvement, etc. They all hammered in pretty hard that being boyfriend/girlfriend implied exclusivity.
Well, except for the “going steady” plotline. Sabrina had that one. Harvey’s asks her to go steady and she gets so crazy excited. I, no joke, asked my parents what that meant, and they explained it just like you did – oh, you’re not exclusive until that point, it’s not expected. Me and my sisters thought that was crazy.
To illustrate further. The summer after senior year, there was a girl that I was “going out with” for like a month. In that we kissed a total of twice, and hung out together a few times. But then later that summer, right before college started, I was hanging out with another friend of mine and we kissed. I remember *very specifically* that I got an angry letter from her older brother saying I broke her heart and that I better hope he never runs into me. And when I told my college girlfriend over a year later (the person I eventually married) she nearly broke up with me because she couldn’t believe she was dating “a cheater.”
Are you telling me that this entire dating-requires-exclusivity nonsense was caused by media brainwashing for the purpose of increasing drama?
For me, Joyce and Joe’s relationship being nine days old makes her cheating much less a big deal than it could be, but it’s still cheating. I don’t think it would be just by default for anyone you could say “they’ve been dating for nine days” about, but there are details to every relationship. For Joyce and Joe, I’d note:
1. She said they were in a monogamous relationship (to Dorothy).
2. There’s definitely been an expectation that Joe not pursue other women during this time.
3. They had built a friendship first, and things became romantic when Joe confessed his feelings, which were pretty strong. This makes it different to me than the start of a relationship where you might go out a couple times to get to know each other and see if there are any feelings there; these two began with that established.
For Dorothy and Walky, there seems to be at least some view of resuming the previous, serious relationship they had. From my perspective, it’s really not; things feel different this time. But that can vary (resume vs reset) with real couples getting back together, and they (Dorothy and Walky) might have different expectations for what’s happening between them than is really accurate.
And then, yes, norms differ in different spaces and times, and there will always be relationships outside those norms too. Like, my grandparents meet one night, dated for two weeks got married, and moved to Colombia. They were happily (from everything I’ve gathered) married the rest of their lives. And sometimes people say “well, back then–” but that’s just part of how norms can go back and forth over time– and no, it was still pretty unusual for back then.
So. There’s not a real point to this other than a nine day relationship *could* be over halfway toward marriage, I guess.
While I do think there’s some expectation of monogamy here that kissing someone else does breach… I’m also kind of baffled by the “cheating” accusation. If they kept it from their partners, and especially if they kept doing it, sure. If they went further than kissing, sure.
But kissing someone and immediately coming clean to / breaking up with your partner? That’s only cheating in the most tenuous possible sense. It’s only a betrayal in the same sense that leaving your partner for someone else is – it sucks, it really sucks, but it’s not a terrible act of immorality, and whether your lips meet just before or just after the breakup isn’t really relevant.
The act of kissing is itself cheating. It is a breach of the monogamous relationship and a betrayal of trust. I don’t understand what is difficult about this. Coming clean immediately might affect how forgiving the partner might be, but the act of cheating has already happened.
I agree. Assuming they do come clean, it’s really a very minor detail.
Huh. Well, thank you all for schooling me so very gently. Honestly, I was expecting outrage, given how heated the comments on this topic can get. I appreciate you all for not pillorying me. (Yet. “The night is young…” — I may dumb again!)
And — yeah. I guess I’ve had the wrong of it. Funny — how so long can pass since one was young and dumb, and one is still learning lessons one should have already jnown back then.
Well, thank you, folks, for the gentle education! 🙂 I guess times and cultures really did change. Or maybe I was simply wrong all along.🤔
I still think it’s a huge shame if kids today really don’t see any need to check in with one another before assuming they’re in a serious committed relationship now.
This certainly isn’t the case if you met through a dating app, at least in my experience, which is… I’d say a good chunk of how dating works for queer people who don’t have a nearby queer bar where it’s nominally safer to shoot your shot with strangers.
Not that ye olde 1950s “I’d like to go steady, how do you feel about that?” conversation made specific room for poly people, but at least it was a conversation: an opportunity for your partner(?) to say no, they don’t want to go steady with you, before anyone’s feelings get hurt through miscommunication.
This may or may not be relevant to Joe and Joyce, but the number of folks who have confidently asserted that you should just assume exclusivity immediately really does concern me.
I think there’s some cloudiness to Dorothy and Walky’s current arrangement, but it’s completely unambiguous with Joe and Joyce. They are 100% in an exclusive, monogamous relationship.
When did they agree to this?
I agree that they’ve both indicated they think this at various points! But they didn’t actually have a conversation about it. Joyce assumed that masturbating (all by herself!) was problematic, and Joe tried to reassure her that it wasn’t, then they both got distracted by the “laundry room” situation.
Also pls don’t confuse this for me saying Joyce and Dorothy weren’t cheating! I genuinely just think the number of folks who have said this should be the default assumption and indicated that the idea of needing to talk about it first was weird seem, to me, like an invitation to hurt feelings.
I agree that, in the abstract, people should have conversations about the bounds of relationships when they get together. That’s how I operate.
Is that how most people, in a society where monogamy is the default, operate? Is it how Joyce, until recently a fundamentalist Christian who was intending to engage in a traditional courtship, would operate? Is it how Joe would operate?
Talking about people as a whole? I don’t know! I thought conversations were happening until the comment section started suggesting otherwise, but I’m in my little queer bubble and there are definitely different rules.
(Like, the common idea that it would be a bro-code violation for, let’s say, Joe to start dating Dorothy after Danny and Dorothy split up? Or that it’s weird to keep being friends with an ex?
That’s a thing in mainstream Straight Society, but decidedly not a thing in more insular subcultures: like queer friend groups, but also like, say, theater kids. More insular subgroups tend to instead lead to “everyone’s got at least three exes within the friend group, and we all keep being friends”.)
As for Joyce and Joe specifically: well, now I’m gonna bring out my “Joyce’s motivations” cork board again, because while I tend to think yes, they both assumed they were monogamous and exclusive — and they’ve both definitely said things to that effect! — one of my theories is still: “did Joyce somehow misinterpret what Joe was saying about masturbation?”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/touchedmyself/
BUT I WANNA BE VERY CLEAR, this is me guessing Joyce’s motivations, and not a rationalization that would make what she’s doing harmless. I don’t think it’s harmless! I think there might be a tragic misunderstanding in here somewhere, but it would only be a mitigating factor.
To be fair, I’m far removed from “kids these days”, but I don’t think that’s really true. I certainly don’t think it’s reflected in the relationships we’ve seen here. As you say, it doesn’t apply to dating app hookups and I would say in a similar fashion it wouldn’t apply to picking someone up at a bar or a party.
There isn’t the same kind of 50’s formalized dating/going steady dichotomy, but that’s not the same thing. Instead it’s tied up in things like Dorothy and Walky talking about “we’re back together” or Joe and Joyce agreeing they’re boyfriend and girlfriend.
Most people here aren’t actually saying “you should just assume exclusivity immediately”, but that it’s risky to just assume poly will be acceptable, after you’re serious enough to consider it a relationship rather than just a casual date. This I think is where there’s a collision between two different question leading to confusion.
No one, for example, is arguing that Old Joe was cheating because each time he had sex it implied an exclusive relationship. Or Roz. Or Ethan when he was having fun before the timeskip. This only comes up with people who actually treat it as a relationship, even if we didn’t see an explicit conversation exclusivity.
I mean. First, I really really have to pick a nit about your wording.
Not all dating apps are Grindr. Not all queer bars are “pick up” scenes. When I talked about my experience with dating apps, I was very much talking about looking for a long-term relationship. There’s nothing wrong with people who prefer more casual relationships, but dating apps don’t “presume non-exclusive until asked”, either. My experience was MUCH more like the 1950s situation, where after a couple of dates go well, you have a conversation.
But there’s definitely a wealth of situations between “assume immediate monogamy” and “assume polyamory unless otherwise stated”. I’m not arguing for either.
I’m talking about, for example, how TV portrayals are apparently showing teenagers immediately assuming monogamy the second they’ve been on a date, and how I think that’s a shame, if that’s reflective of how kids today are operating.
Not because there’s anything wrong with monogamy! I can’t stress enough that I’m mono myself. But because communication is good!
I know the 1950s “going steady” conversation was part of a larger attitude of sex negativity — the videos that showed what were supposed to be teenagers having those conversations were inevitably also very pro-abstinence and full of rigid gender norms!! — but if we’ve moved away from that model so completely that we’re encouraging assumption over conversation, yeah, I think that’s a shame.
Fair nit on the wording. My intent there though however badly phrased wasn’t to limit it just to casual sex, but to any kind of set up that leads to “get to know you” type dates. Whether that’s an app, blind dates like Ruth and Daisy, whatever. That kind of thing doesn’t lead to an immediate presumption of exclusivity or that the dates will continue, for that matter.
It does eventually lead to a discussion about whether it’s a relationship or just a few dates, which I think kind of parallels the old “going steady” discussion.
But the discussion is likely to be framed in those terms, rather than in exclusive terms. It’s the exclusivity, once the relationship is understood to be serious, that is assumed. Not that a single date means it’s serious.
I still think much of the confusion here is from a conflation of the two, with some people saying that monogamy is the default assumption for a serious relationship and others hearing that no one talks about relationship status at all.
Complicated by Willis not writing about relationships that start with casual dating, but more ones where the tension builds before anything starts so they’re relatively serious from the beginning.
Thanks.
Now, interestingly, I checked dictionaries and found that some of them do define “go steady” as “to date one person exclusively”, while others just defined it as a more serious type of dating.
So I definitely thought “go steady” was synonymous with being exclusive, rather than a more nebulous term about seriousness, and that’s informed my whole half of this conversation.
But I was, yes, getting the impression that conversations aren’t happening at all: that people are just taking it as “read” that a relationship is going to be both serious and monogamous without any kind of actual checking-in, because that’s what I thought I was hearing about the mentioned pop culture portrayals of dating, and because several people indicated that they thought a formal conversation was kind of stuffy and unnecessary — not just that it makes sense to assume Joyce and Joe were exclusive, but that the idea of not assuming was weird, and that people who didn’t make that same assumption were going to hurt people…
…and that latter declaration just seems like any type of assumption is gonna hurt people! If you’ve never had this check-in before, and you’ve never hurt or been hurt by mismatched assumptions, you’ve been lucky.
*Plays “I get around” on the hacked tailgate party speakers…*
https://youtu.be/BchXkabxn4A
some might say that Joyce has a terrible poker face, but this is actually a *terrific* “poke-her face”, as in “god i need to get my fingers on and inside dorothy right this second”
Joyce is as bad at it as Luffy XD
*Plays *Poker Face* on the hacked casino loudspeakers…*
https://youtu.be/BchXkabxn4A
It’s like 4pm, so she has plenty of time to figure out how she’s gonna tell her boyfriend she has an official girlfriend now.
I like how she realized it might not be her place to out her trans sister to her friends.
to be fair its one of those things where she knows all her friends would be fine and have expressed as much with it, and its not like they know jocelyn personally or anything
Not only that, but it’s purely coincidence that Sarah wasn’t around when Jocelyne was. If she had been, she would have met her and been “outed”, like she was to half the rest of the floor. She didn’t seem to have any issues with the rest of them.
Would she? Not long ago Dorothy didn’t tell her about Carla because of the possibility of Joyce being weird about it. Is Joyce going to know exactly what Jocelyne would want, regarding the discretion of people she’s barely or never met?
Again, it’s purely chance Jocelyne didn’t meet Sarah when she was in the dorm before and she didn’t seem to have any problem meeting any of Joyce’s friends then.
Assuming she’s staying around, she’ll likely run into Sarah sooner or later. Be easier if she knows up front.
Oh Please Joyce! Talk with Sarah!
What is a Joyce?
A miserable pile of Secrets!
She has a Dorothy. Not sure how miserable she is.
I feel like people are reading a lot of “oh, clearly Sarah absolutely knows about Joyce’s secrets from beforehand and has seen pictures already” into a strip where Joyce is, with her mouth, out loud, saying things like “wait, I never told you, did I? Wait, should I even tell you?”, which I think most people would consider… pretty indicative of secret-harboring.
So, thinking on things, what does Joyce think is going to happen between herself and Dorothy? What does Dorothy think? It feels like Dorothy is very convinced that she and Joyce are now a couple, and she wants as gentle a split from the existing partners in their lives to accomplish that. But as has been typical for this arc, we don’t actually know Joyce’s thoughts on the matter, and it’s not like Joyce and Dorothy have had a serious conversation about it.
Was it just kissing?
Was it kissing and we’re together now?
Was it that thing Billie said about best friends?
That’s also going to affect how Sarah and the others react to being informed of what happened.
Lotsa questions, maybe we’ll find out some answers tomorrow.
Yeah. Speaking of unstated assumptions! They appear to have split up (possibly to shower before telling their boyfriends, possibly to get the phones they left behind?) without actually agreeing on anything beyond “we need to tell them”.
Very possible that they think they’re on exactly the same page, but one of them is going to break up with their boyfriend to start a new relationship while the other apologizes and promises it won’t ever happen again!
Talk to each other too, you doofuses.
Yuppp. That little planning session kind of died off, didn’t it?
Or it happened between panels.
It COULD have, but I doubt it. I think the conversation would be too interesting for Willis to skip over it.
Considering the author described the big scene at the protest as “a marriage,” I think it’s extremely unlikely that either of them don’t see themselves as in a relationship now.
Maybe they did it for tax reasons. Plenty of people marry for that, I assume.
Other people’s secrets.
Always taste better.
It’s like the french-fries on other people’s plates.
So, how is Joyce supposed to talk about her sister to people she has told she only has brothers, without outing her?
She can’t really.
Kind of thing where ideally she’d ask Jocelyne how she wants Joyce to handle it, and Jocelyne would probably say it’s fine for Joyce to tell her friends/people she trusts.
Yes, this is normally what should happen.
The most ideal version, I think, is like:
Hey Jocelyne, what level of disclosure would you prefer…
– with close friends I trust that you have also met?
– with friends I trust that don’t know you at all?
– with people I have reason to think are cool (like I met them at a questioning meet-up), but don’t know that well?
– with classmates I don’t think you’ve ever met?
– with future coworkers you might or might not ever meet?
– with total strangers?
And by “level of disclosure” I mean, there’s referring to Jocelyne vaguely, as in “I have three siblings”; there’s referring to Jocelyne just as “I have a sister” (without naming names); there’s referring to Jocelyne by name as a sister…
…and then there’s varying degrees of talking about Jocelyne as trans. “I have trans friends and family members” being the vaguest, not outing any specific person, something that you might feel compelled to say while talking about politics. There’s “I have a trans family member,” which is potentially more identifying. There’s “I have a trans sister,” which is even more so. And then if course there’s “my trans sister, Jocelyne”.
Saying you have siblings isn’t very identifying, but from Joyce, someone who’s consistently said not only that she has three older brothers but also that she wishes she had a sister, it’s potentially a bit more attention-getting, depending on who she tells.
Joyce, I respect that you’re worrying about which information you can share and which you cannot. 🙂
Now about the other things you should be worrying about…
Off topic but how has THIS page had the least comments in weeks haha
Initial cheating fury has died down + the hate sink left the panel
we should have had a thread for predicting how long until Joyce and Dorothy split up.
Real world 2-5 years in-universe by the end of the semester.
I don’t wanna say one of them will cheat but they seem very fast and loose with their emotions lol.
I think cheating won’t come up again but I don’t think they’re the endgame Willis seems to think they are. They don’t have the bulletproof energy Dina/Becky and Sal/Danny have.
Cheating is a pretty common thing in romantic drama. By Willis’s own words, his aversion to writing it was holding back his ability to write a danged story without it dissolving into therapy speak from college freshmen.
Yeah, and I guess it would bookend their relationship, but it’s not what I would go for.
This iteration of Dorothy+Joyce isn’t endgame, IMO. Dorothy has a lot of issues that can cause an issue. I think the timeline is going to depend on which one is the issue. In universe, I’m thinking around five days or around a month. Not sure I can explain it, but I don’t think it will be two-ish weeks.
“This romantic drama about college freshmen being flawed people going through romantic drama would be a much better one if it was about a cozy witch trying to find her neighbor’s lost cat in the alps. Also Joyce and Dorothy are real people who should be discussed as if they are my real life friends.”
– the comments this arc
You don’t read this comic for a decade without developing an unhealthy parasocial relationship with the fictional characters
I did.
So you say
Dorothy: Joyce! You weren’t supposed to say anything!
Joyce: I couldn’t help it! Sarah glared it out of me!
That alt text though
‘…maybe less open secrets’
*sarah intensifies*