I feel like that’s something the comic is never going to delve that deep into.
Which, positives and negatives. It makes the whole protest arc feel a bit shallow for me but at the same time, it’s not like I really WANT the whole comic to refocus on geopolitical stuff.
Yeah, not everything can recontextualize current events like Superman did, and I wouldn’t want the comic to grind to a halt to explain it’s version of those events unless they’re really important to the plot since I read comics to escape the real world for a little bit
Technically Superman didn’t recontextualize any current events, the script was finalized before the whole kefluffle in Isreal/Palestine kicked off, hence why literally the only similarities were that there was a genocide going on in the middle east, it was sheer coincidence that a genocide in the middle east occurred. Coincidences like that DO happen. The fact that there were parallels to draw at all was just serendipity (or ill-fortune if you consider the Snyder fanatics used it as an excuse to call the movie “woke” and crap on it more than they were already going to).
Both of these things were written decades, nearly a century, after the formation of the occupation and displacement; a project explicitly described as colonial in nature by it’s head architects. This isn’t a “centuries of nebulous conflict/oppression” argument, this is an objective description of a political project that is moderately well documented, but most people are horribly informed about because of it’s proximity to the dominant cultural hegemony and most powerful propaganda engine (Pax Americana, and even when the USSR was around to challenge Pax Americana, that Cultural Hegemony also often supported the colonial project for it’s own reasons).
And nobody in the US was kicking up a significant fuss until just recently. The Superman movie could have been made a decade ago and be shot for shot identical and nobody would be saying it was about that conflict, instead they’d be drawing parallels with whatever genocide was going on a decade ago that was making waves in the media at the time. I have no recollection of what it might have been, but I’m sure there was one, because there almost always is one.
The kefluffle as you put it didn’t come from nowhere. It was seventy-five years of occupation and genocide in the making. Opperation Cast Thy Bread (One of the earliest war crimes committed by Zionists against the Palestinian people) was enacted six months into the Palestine War (the conflict which established the colonial state of Israel.)
The parallels between the script and the actively ongoing genocide aren’t less cutting because the script was written during a lull in the active killing.
And, even if the script and cast were already locked in before October 7 2023, there was room to bring the parallels into starker contrasts: Wardrobe, Acting, and Directing all would have been on-going through the first year of the current genocide in gaza, and Editing through the second.
To dismiss as coincidence what was clearly intentional feels rather disrespectful to skill of everyone involved.
The oppression and genocides Jews suffered in Ottoman and British Palestine and neighboring areas goes back far longer than 75 years, longer than Israel or anything that looks like modern Zionism. Where one chooses to mark the beginning of the history that “counts” is very much a political decision.
We should all be leery of a fandom-ized interpretation of real world tragedies, especially when that fandom comes with headcanons like “this creator must see things my way, and if they say they don’t, it’s just an act.”
Jews were not uniquely oppressed in the Ottoman empire. They fled *to* the Ottoman empire to escape persecution from Europe. They had to pay a non Muslim tax, same as the Christians, but otherwise Jewish culture thrived under the Ottomans. I’m not gonna say it was a walk in the park but point those genocidal accusations at Europe, Spain was expelling their Jews and Portugal was forcing conversion
I do love the focus on discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world to paint Jews as victims of ages of Muslim oppression and thus unable to live in peace and justified in claiming the land of Israel for there, while simultaneously ignoring even longer oppression from Christians which should prove that Jews can never reconcile with them either.
Jews have definitely been fucked over by everyone at various times since antiquity. No denying it. Overall, it looks to me like the balance would have Jews living in Christian lands worse off than in Muslim countries – though there are obviously exceptions in both directions at various places and times.
The modern situation has been relatively brief, driven by sympathy after the Holocaust on the Christian side and the Zionist movement first trying to establish itself and then eventually founding the state of Israel in the Levant on the Muslim side.
I generally see two lines of complaints over this.
The first is that the use of a Palestine parallel was handled insensitively with regards to the real human suffering in the world. This complaint generally focuses on how the protests were used as a backdrop for a romance arc, or how Willis hasn’t seemed very engaged with the subject before now.
The second is complaining that it “lacks nuance”, or otherwise doesn’t portray it as a “both sides” issue.
I have respect for certain criticisms in the first category, but the latter just seems like it comes from people who oppose criticising Israel. They complain because the comic paints their side as bad.
Except we also have direct word from the director that it wasn’t inspired by Israel, and frankly I didn’t see anything that painted it as Israel specific. There was a genocide, that genocide took place in the middle east. That is where the similarities both start and end. There have been plenty of other genocides in the middle east over the years. And frankly while there have been previous periods of violence in the Israel/Gaza area that got some amount of publicity, I don’t recall anyone here in the US caring quite as vocally about it until now, so it seems weird to claim that any of that history would be relevant to the idea that the creators of the Superman movie cared enough to make intentional references to it.
They made a generic genocide between two fictional countries, and it happened to bear a passing resemblance to the genocide that kicked off while it was in production. The creators deny there was inspiration there, and frankly there are only so many ways to depict a genocide that it’d bear a passing resemblance to any other genocide that might have occurred in the middle east at that time instead, it’s not like that’s the only major conflict between two ethnic groups going on over there.
It wasn’t blatant, because it wasn’t a reference. I keep seeing people call it a blatant reference but I’ve yet to see anybody actually explain WHAT they think makes it so obviously about Israel/Palestine beyond the fact that it’s a genocide taking place in the middle east. What are the parallels that you are seeing that I’m not? What are the direct references? What makes Boravia Israel and not any other middle eastern country? What makes Jarhanpur Palestine and not any other middle eastern country? Why is it not relevant that in the movie it was one country invading another and not a civil war like the conflict you all keep claiming this is supposed to be representing?
The fact of the matter is that we get extremely little information about the nature of the conflict in the movie, or the cultures of the two countries. Heck the only character from either country that even gets a line is the president of Boravia and his lines give us nothing to go off of to conclude anything about his country, it’s culture, or it’s religion (if that’s even relevant). Because it ultimately doesn’t matter to the story. All that mattered to the story was that there was a genocide and Superman opposed it because genocide is bad. You can draw parallels from that to literally every genocide ever in all of human history, because they are all bad and Superman would be just as opposed to them.
There’s pretty much always one genocide or another happening in the middle east. Israel/Palestine, Saddam/Kurds, Turks/Armenians … it happens so often it’s a handy plot for a protest story arc even if it’s not happening at the time of writing.
We’re not supposed to think about it too deeply at all. The comic makes it clear that the protesters are right, and the naysayers are wrong, and that’s pretty much that.
That’s not a criticism on the comic, but just a reality of life. For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it. And to those who really don’t care, why, they’ll listen to whoever’s opinion they trust most and take it up as their own, because they didn’t have a horse in this race to begin with.
We all think we’re unbiased, but very, VERY few issues in the average person’s life are approached with a blank slate and no preexisting bias, with all perspectives equally analyzed and weighed. And that’s not a slight on anyone – I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
We all have only so many spoons. You can’t realistically do all the legwork yourself, not if you want to live life having opinions on the vast majority of things.
I mean, come on. How many times have you seen an argument online go something like, “I don’t care what else you say, your side does _____ and that’s inexcusable.” When what that means, is that this person found the point at which they don’t need to keep thinking about the issue. For Hank, that’s “Terrorism.” For Dorothy, that’s “Genocide.” And Dorothy would argue to Hank that it’s not actually terrorism and Hank would argue that it’s not actually genocide, and both would walk away feeling more vindicated and righteous for facing the radical.
Of the entire named cast who was at the protest, it’s likely that Jocelyne is one of the few who examined the situation fully from both angles, having been raised in her household and then deciding for herself later something different.
This. Also, the world would be better off without polarized news coverage, or, worse, news coverage only from your social media bubble. The bad news is that… that’s the reality for uncomfortably many normally well meaning folks.
I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
Or watch ships coming over the horizon; notice how you see the top first, while your view of the bottom’s still obstructed by the water? That’s a consequence of the curvature of the water, itself a consequence of the gravity of the curved planet.
Well, either that or it’s a ghost ship rising from the depths, but repeated observations should debunk this hypothesis.
Perhaps more convenient, but not available in all places: in some locations, you don’t even need the ship — there are places where tall buildings are visible over the horizon but their lower floors are hidden behind the Earth’s curvature.
Just to add: Flat Earther’s foolishness isn’t in disagreeing with the scientific consensus, it’s in vehemently making claims without testing them, while outright rejecting counterarguments without due consideration.
By contrast, someone who hasn’t yet considered the issue might implicitly assume the world to be flat but doesn’t have the rigid beliefs of an actual Flat Earther.
Some did test the theory. The problem is that their tests were deeply flawed and didn’t actually prove what they claimed. The story is similar for many conspiracy theories. Supporters put forth “evidence” that’s either false or fails to prove they claim it does.
> For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it.
See, this is why I find human beings so frustrating – at least the neurotypical ones. I don’t know if this is an autistic spectrum thing or just *me* thing, but I’m absolutely *not* wired that way.
There is a model in my head of reality.
But I know that is *not* reality.
What you are describing is people trying to search for evidence to support that their model of reality is the correct reality.
I don’t. I seek to improve my model of reality. If I find evidence that contradicts that model, I adjust the model to account for that evidence, if the model cannot account for that evidence, then I know the model is based on faulty principles.
This is a conscious choice. It’s something I have *chosen* to do.
But it baffles me that most people do not make that choice.
It’s a pretty simple concept, isn’t it?
The assumption that you do not, in fact, know everything that is, and therefore, your view of reality is imperfect, and always will be.
I mean, that’s true for literally everyone that has ever lived, so it’s hardly unique. And yet, there are so few people that manage to figure it out.
However, to really live by that, two things are required. The ability to admit being wrong, and the willingness to strive to improve. The first is foolishly seen as an admission of weakness, and the later is a tremendous amount of difficult, frustrating, and thankless work.
Most people just won’t bother.
Good thing I’m stubborn.
OMG, I’m pretty sure this is the first time someone has mistaken me for neurotypical.
I’m not sure if it’s an autistic spectrum thing or not, but I 100% hear you, except for one thing. For the things that I don’t care about, I *really* don’t care about. Like, I could talk for ages about the narrative role that Booster plays in this story and how in some ways they ARE a reboot of Mike’s role, but sit me in a room with a real-life Booster and suddenly I really need to check DekuDeals to see if there’s any good sales going on.
Anyways. When I say “for most of us” I mean for most of us humans. And I’ve gotten that view after years upon years of banging my head against the wall wondering why on earth we all act so tribalistic and afraid of listening to one another. Why we come up with pejoratives to describe people used to think like us but changed their mind.
And what I got, mostly, is that most people are afraid of change and the unknown. They have their view of reality and the idea of shaking it up or tearing some or all of it down – and especially of admitting you were wrong on something – is like trying to redesign your boat while you’re sailing it. You’re going to have a breakdown.
Also that people really, REALLY like being right. And because they often feel their own inadequacies very strongly they get some sort of joy from tearing down others so they can feel more right. There are some people who just don’t feel complete unless there’s a battle to be won and an enemy to vanquish.
There are lots of ways to prove that the Earth is round. Some of them you can do at home. Given a stick, a couple of widely separated points, and some basic geometry, you can even make a pretty good estimate of the size.
I picked “flat earth” because it’s something that I feel like we all can 100% get behind, without people accusing me that I’m trying to secretly advocate that the world is a flat disc perched atop the shoulders of four elephants standing on top of Great A’Tuin the Turtle.
… though surprisingly it’s working out beautifully, because so far most people have latched onto that, and mostly either shared sites that talk about it, or other people who talk about it, or better yet, just saying that the other side is flawed.
Show of hands. How many people here have stood looking out over the horizon with a spyglass, specifically to see the bottom of the sailboat disappear on the horizon? It’s not something you’d be able to really see well with your naked eye. Of those who had, how many of you had then run controlled experiements so that you know that what you’re seeing you can attribute to the curvature of the earth, *quickly Googles* a trick of the light, with atmospheric refracting?
How many of you have calculated the geometry that John Campbell mentions yourself? How many of you have coordinated with someone in Alexandria while you stood in Aswan to see the length of your obelisk’s shadow? How many have done any information gathering at all, earnestly, for the other side?
I haven’t. I trust that those before me have. I trust that when Carl Sagan explains that Eratosthenes puzzled over the differences in shadow, that he measured properly. I trust that the reason why Polaris stays at the same point in the sky is because it lines up the neatest with the rotation of a round Earth, and I trust that up in space there’s not one astronaut gaping at a giant disc perched on a turtle while another astronaut holds a gun to his back, saying “Always has been.”
The flat earthers have. How do I know? Because they get it wrong! Human knowledge is based off of all of us collectively adding our knowledge together, proving and disproving each other. Jeff Goldblum’s character in Jurassic Park criticized Hammond for “standing on the shoulders of geniuses and taking the next step” but that is exactly what civilization is.
But we’ve become so divided that it’s no longer just “collected human knowledge” versus “crazy kooks.” There’s other cultures, other civilizations, and yes other political views, and you can’t just simply say “Oh, they’re all brainwashed, my way is the right way.” That implies an incredible amount of arrogance, simply because you were born at the right time, to the right people, and had the right influences, that to you the picture of your world says “this is right.”
There are a few things that I know for sure. One is that I’m certainly not the only intellgent person in the world, not by a long shot. Another is that I can’t be right about everything. And a third is that the best way to learn is by listening to others, especially those who don’t think like me.
Hell, ten years ago I was stuck in a Baptist church that was a half a step away from ‘cult’ but I found this funny comic strip called Shortpacked and figured I’d hear what it had to say. I can relate to the journey that Willis made, because he was a principal figure in opening the blinds and showing me there was a different way to think about the world.
So that’s why I say that we’re just supposed to take this at face value. Because despite the similarities, this isn’t Israel and Palestine. And not just because that would completely change a fundamentalist Christian perspective. It’s simple and straightforward because Bulmeria is not up for debate. Few things in real life are either-or, or neatly folded up into a box, and when Willis lets Hank give voice to his concerns, it’s not intended for us to sit down and discuss, “OK, well, to what degree does a country have the ability to retaliate and at what point is it genocide and what constitutes a “terrorist” to begin with?” It’s so we can sit back and go, “fuck, not only is he neck-deep in pro-war media, but he’s COMPLETELY missing the irony on panel 2, this is worse than I tought.”
The protest is on the side of the good guys. The campus and corporations are the bad guys. They fund war for profit. The protesters get tear gassed. If there is any nuance here, it will not be if the protest is good or bad, but whether Hank is dangerous or not or can be trusted or not, and also whether or not we can forget about the cheating for five minutes and watch two girls make out.
I’ve done the boat-sailing-away thing with binoculars. And watched buildings get shorter while sailing away from them. I feel a weird little thrill when things I know about the universe line up with what I can see.
Love your account of the role of Willis’ work in your escape
Well you got some breadcrumbs – it’s an insurgency, so it’s some form of civil war between a faction recognized by the Us gov and a faction considered insurgents/terrorists that nonetheless are citizens, though unclear if it’s revolutionary or seperatist.
A good history of WWI at least has to cover the Balkan Wars and the Austro-Hungariab Empire (50 years worth). That’s not necessary here.
Starship Troopers wasn’t exactly a treatise about why Earth is fighting those extraterrestrials. but we got enough around the edges to recall some real world fascism and / or authoritarianism.
To keep the strip from getting anchored in current events, Bulmeria is an abstraction of them. For deep analysis of the actual Middle East, there are books and news articles and probably even some topical web comics.
This is actually another problem I have with the protest story here and to a lesser extent with the Gaza protests themselves. It’s very easy for the protests to shift to become about protesting – about free speech rights and about police violence against protestors. Which are important things and probably even more now than when this was written, but it’s still a shift away from the genocide the protests were originally about.
That’s the idea. A cat is near your nest full of chicks. You pretend to have a broken wing 50 feet away. The cat comes towards you, away from the nest, hoping for an easy meal. When it is 20 feet away, you stop faking and fly away. You have gotten the cat away from your nest and chicks.
It’s a reasonable take for the information that someone with the information the average american in a relatively conservative sphere had at the start of all this. The question is how he’ll react to learning the truth of the situation, you know?
Hearing the “propaganda of the insurgents” of course.
And we should also remember that we all have similar blind spots and prejudices. In this fictional context, we don’t actually have enough information to make an informed judgement on the Bulmerian conflict. We can only respond to context clues that point to where Willis wants our sympathies to lie. Or to parallels between the protests and the Gaza protests. More sympathetic characters support the protests, while characters we dislike or at least distrust take the other side. That’s a common way to decide such things, but not really a good one.
She’s not mad at Joyce or Dorothy in the slightest, she’s mad at *herself* for being “not good enough.” I’m not at all surprised how happy she is to help.
I’m glad Hank understands all this relationship stuff is less important than what is going on in a wholly fictional nation that has no relationship to ANY real life conflict past or present (even if he’s on the wrong side). It would be so silly if the girls were more worried about their relationship than that…or Jocelyn.
like, hardly a coincidence that Zionism is much more popular among white conservative Christians than it is for Jews, what with Armageddon prophesies and all that Dominionist bullshit
“They don’t like Jews in America but they like them in Israel because they think it’s a necessary part of summoning Cthulhu.” – An explanation I made to a friend while drunk.
With 3 billion Christians and 15 million Jews, I’m sure there are more people blowing shofars and owning Hebrew books in the former than the latter. The history that led to such a tiny population is one of the reasons why most Jews are Zionists.
Speaking of populations, a few weeks ago one million Israelis (as in, 1-in-10 of the whole country) protested nationwide for an immediate hostage deal and ceasefire. No Kings in America got 1-in-66.
On the “most Jews are Zionists” bit… here’s an article on the study that prompted the common claim that about 95% of Jews support the Jewish state”, as well as further, more in-depth studies that found things like
‘“Generally pro-Israel and supportive of the current Israeli government’s policies” (32%); “Generally pro-Israel but also critical of some of the current Israeli government’s policies” (35%); Generally pro-Israel but also critical of many of the current Israeli government’s policies” (24%); or “Generally not pro-Israel” (3%).’ (the remaining 5% or 6% being “no opinion”, apparently). https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists
As to the million Israelis you refer to: while I don’t have numbers for this, from what I’ve seen, many of the protesters (and I’m hoping most) would agree with them, also being in favour of ceasefire and not opposed to the Israeli people in general. I’ve come across many people who are just as disapproving of the actions of Hamas as of the IDF, but still focus more on the IDF’s attacks both because there seem to have been a lot more of them, and also because so much of the media has been lambasting Hamas that adding to that might have seemed redundant.
It’s a very realistic depiction of most basic pro Israel people. It’s not based in malice so much as ignorance. It’s not at all surprising Hank would take the same view most conservatives do
When the comic draws deliberate comparisons to real life comics and a real life protest at Indiana University about Palestine, then the comic doesn’t ever explain the finer details, what else are people supposed to do?
It’s been pretty clearly for a while now that the protests were a reference to the anti-genocide pro-Palestine protests that happened at Indiana University last year. This is a fictionalized version so some things are changed of course, but that’s definitely what the protests in this comic have been about.
That’s true, but it’s also true that what little hints we’ve gotten of the Bulmerian situation itself are quite different than the Israeli/Palestinian situation.
Most blatantly, there’s no indication that Jews are involved in the Bulmerian conflict at all. Thus stripping away all the antisemitism complications to I/P and simplifying the reactions of our handful of Jewish characters.
It’s pretty clear that we’re meant to take the protestors side, but we can’t actually analyze the situation to confirm that. We can just rely on the good liberal characters being on one side and the bad conservative ones on the other. 🙂
I mean would adding in more Israel/Palestine context change the conclusion?
I’ve been reading it as basically a direct stand in for Pro-Palestine protests. So when I interpret the narrative I support the protests in the comic because I support the Pro-Palestine protests in real life. It isn’t because I am just trusting the main cast.
And yeah, if you don’t support Palestinian liberation you probably won’t like the protests being presented as a good thing… But in the same vein if you don’t support trans rights you probably won’t like how this comic handles the subject. If someone wants a world with conservative Christian values, this comic will likely seem like a strawman.
It isn’t making the argument for why Palestinian liberation/Trans Rights/Progressive pluralism are good because that isn’t the point of the comic. It isn’t a persuasive essay.
He’s not improving quickly enough so he is the enemy and we must HATE him! I am very virtuous in my posts in the comments section of a slice of life webcomic!
Ya I feel the same way. I’m not frustrated or anything that the comic keeps drawing away from Hank every time he is ready to open into a discussion or have some character development, but it is a shame that it does. The comic is about young adults in college rather than a 50-something adult after all.
I’m not too surprised Hank has terrible beliefs on a state committing genocide considering his fundie background, but I was kinda hoping the divorce and his changing views on gay people and atheists and such from his past interactions with Joyce and Becky and Dorothy might have caused him to re-examine his beliefs on other things too. Sadly, I guess not.
If you’re being flooded with a ton of changing views because of your life being put upside down, it’s very easy to not *also* challenge the beliefs that only ever show up on the news. If anything, Hank being confronted with his kids being a part of the process might be the *trigger* for re-examining his views on this topic as well. It could be what drags it from the background, into something that his family cares about, and thus should care to him, to.
It’s possible that he has been re-examining his beliefs on other things, just not on other things that have bipartisan support. It can take multiple steps to get from “the Republicans are all that is pure and good, and the Democrats are the vanguard of cultural decay” to “huh, maybe there’s something to this cultural decay, I should try watching CNN and reading the New York Times” to “CNN and the New York Times are still evil but for the opposite reason.”
If this is essentially an Israel/Palestine representation (or at least close to) then this is kind of understandable. It’s insanely hard to think that displaced side that’s suffering the most aren’t ‘the bad guys’ when you’ve had decades of media blurring the issue.
I’m 41 and in the UK. Since the late 90’s (when i first began to even remotely care about the news) whenever i’ve heard of Israel and Palestine in the news it was vague and confusing. It felt like it was mostly summed up as, ‘the Jewish people, having rebuilt after getting over Hitler, are trying to get on with the Arabs, but there’s some disagreements over land borders and some Arab terrorists are taking it too far’. As the current genocide has escalated over the past few years it’s become clear it’s not that simple. The scale in power has been blurred. Other countries are fearful of calling out Israel because of antisemitism. Atrocities on either side are usually reported in equal measure. It makes it appear as an equal conflict.
But that’s to those of us who have sought out more information on the subject, or at least have news sources that will report on these things without a naive view of needing to seem perfectly balanced, we know it to be different. I’m guessing in this sort of comparative fictional-war-scenario, Hank isn’t getting that. His news sources, his social groups, his place of work are probably not going into detail on this, not reporting clearly, and so he doesn’t even consider this as anything more than fighting terrorist insurgent bad people, because why would he?
…Oh god damn it LMAO I got the pan flag and poly flag mixed up. The orange throws it for a loop but the polka dots are blue, pink, and yellow like the PAN flag.
Also I’ll cop that maybe I’m looking too deep into it but Willis puts so many pride flags into his outfit choices (such as last storyline being Joyce in Bi flag colors) that now I’m looking for these.
(And given Willis’s history that you yourself note, I don’t think that’s too much analysis here. As a writer, I, too, am fond of dumping hints early on, even – or maybe particularly – if people are absolutely not going to get it. It makes me cackle with glee. 😀 )
I wonder if Becky’s seen Lord of the Rings at this point. I know Joyce ducked out on a screening at some point but I forget when in the timeline that would have happened.
Do you think they’re going to be the same one saying Hank’s position is perfectly reasonable and his opinion should be respected or are those going tombe 5+ completely different posters?
What the hell does this solve? Joyce runs away from her father… to do WHAT? They never think these things through, it’s all acting completely on impulse.
Why lie about birth control instead of telling the truth? Why steal a bunch of newspapers? Why run away from her father?
Becky distracting Hank isn’t going to do anything except make the situation worse once he realizes that Joyce is avoiding him.
Her father is an evangelical republican who is currently espousing racism and hunting down her sister for standing up to it, that is why. She lied about birth control because she was scared he’d verbally and/or physically attack her for being unsuitably christian. She stole the newspapers because she didn’t want her outting to get back to the church or either of her parents. She wants to run away because she only just escaped from this cult recently and has seen firsthand what men from it can and will do.
People who have been religiously groomed sometimes act on impulse to protect themselves from direct harm by active and/or former members of said religion. Just because Hank has done *some* good things doesn’t mean he’s not capable of just as many bad things as anyone else from the cult he raised his children in.
He’s here for Jocelyne for a reason. Joyce doesn’t want to find out what that reason is for herself.
Only a minor point, but she stole the newspapers to keep Becky from finding out. The paper copies of the newspapers in her dorm weren’t going to make their way to Hank or the church. Or at least were one of the least likely ways.
she was going to tell Becky right away anyway. That’s what she’d been trying to do all morning. But a published work can 100% make its way back to a family member, all it takes is one person on campus with fundamentalist sympathies, or one day of a family member being curious enough to check the campus website, or one evil, boundary-crossing parent who said she’d “Do anything for you” to the girl who is recently discovered to be queer.
Joyce is worried about Becky, she’s not *scared of* Becky. She’s scared of her parents.
There is absolutely no evidence that she collected the papers to keep them from her parents. She never said so. They didn’t even try to collect all the papers from around campus and while they went to Daisy’s office, they just complained and never said anything about the paper’s website.
Dorothy said when she saw it “Everyone’s going to see this and tell Becky before we get a chance”. That’s why they collected the ones in the dorm. Joyce did say she thought her dad read the online version, so she didn’t even think grabbing them would help there.
Hopefully Becky buys them enough time to warn Jocelyne that Hank’s here and looking for her. So that she can at least be back in a boy disguise and keep the fight on the safer ground of her political opinions.
Joycelyne already knows this, though, or at least should expect it. Joyce told her at the protest yesterday that Hank had seen a picture of her, so she HAS to be expecting that confrontation to come pretty quickly.
Hell, they probably have a storm of messages on their phone (which we know they got back to, since they texted Joyce today) from Hank, so I’d wager Joycelyn is already preparing to meet him.
She doesn’t know he’s here on campus though. And it doesn’t seem like Hank texted Joyce to say he was coming, so I wouldn’t bet he texted Jocelyne either.
I just noticed though that Joyce seems to have her phone in her hand by her side in the first panel with motion lines around it. I’ll bet she’s texting Jocelyne right there as she catches up with Hank and Dorothy.
I’ve been hard on Becky for some of her behavior, mostly her possessive tendencies earlier in the story, not her recent heartbreak. It’s one of the major flaws in her character.
However, I think this strip shows that when push comes to shove, she doesn’t let that flaw get in her way. It’s a good example of what she expressed here:
She loves both Joyce and Dorothy as two of her best friends. There are some wrinkles in that due to the lingering possessiveness and romantic attraction, but when it’s important, the friendship wins out.
I feel bad for Becky. She’s barely had any time to process whatever emotions she’s feeling and now she has to expend more emotional energy running cover for Joyce and Dorothy. That can’t be easy.
Wow, even when hurt Becky still wants to help them. Becky is the mvp right now; Joyce, and Dorothy, need to make their escape now, and figure out how to handle this.
Honestly before he appeared, I had wanted Becky to spend some time chatting with Hank as a better father figure from her youth than her own, someone who could help ground her. I still kinda hope that is allowed to be a thing.
My impression of Sierra is that she is well meaning, but is a bit odd and quirky. She might not consider that some people stay partially closeted with their families. At least she didn’t stay long enough to comment on her own relationships. I’m guessing Hank would not know what to make of it.
i doubt she has strong stances politics wise but i just hope she washes her feet more often than ppl usually shower if she’s walking shoeless everywhere esp outside lol
Wow, even when hurt Becky still wants to help them; Becky is the mvp right now. Joyce, and Dorothy, need to make their escape now, and figure out how to handle this.
I mean….they are. They’re Bulmerians. The big difference is it seems to be a Civil War not a war between two nations. Personally, I think it’s those mean North Bulmerians oppressing the Southern ones.
An important detail of Israel’s genocide is that the occupying state specifically withholds citizenship from the target population in order to more facilitate genocidal actions against the group. That’s why the “right to defend itself” line exists, because the Palestinians are ostensibly an outside group. The line doesn’t work if the victims are citizens as Dorothy suggests.
That also ignores the two state solution that the people of Palestine absolutely recognize themselves as a separate government with sovereign territory. Which is another reason why its not a 1:1 parallel. There’s only Bulmerians here, not Bulmerians and…Ultranians.
I thought I was being explicit. A one state solution in current situations is an occupation with intent to eradicate the local population. There’s absolutely no moral or political benefit to it except for Israel.
It doesn’t have to be exactly the same situation. The point is that genocide is bad, and genocide comes in a lot of different flavors. Honestly posts like this just reek of the left eating ourselves over purity bullshit. It’s thoroughly unproductive.
Instead of eating ourselves and worrying about how pure each other’s reasons are for opposing a genocide, maybe we should try cooking the guys ordering and supplying genocides in a giant microwave oven on live TV, as an example to anyone else who might start getting ideas.
It’s a strong message, I think: “Don’t fucking genocide anyone, or we’ll cook you alive while the world watches.”
And before anyone potentially gets on my case for making jokes or something, I’m dead serious. Big fancy court rooms, military guys with guns, super duper secure prisons, guys in suits with guns, those are too mundane and normal and everyone’s used to them. Nobody takes that shit seriously as it is. I’m 100% genuine and earnest when I say we can have the boring military guys in their boring beige fatigues collect the leaders behind the genocide, but once the guy’s out of his stupid little hidey hole, get the fucking camera crew and start broadcasting worldwide. Anyone can read a headline that says “Leader of Terrorist Group Killed In Gunfight” and just move on, but everyone’s gonna pay attention if you’re like “Stop what you’re fucking doing. This is the guy, this is what he’s been doing, this is what we’re gonna do to these freaks from now on.” and then they watch a clown smash him with a giant mallet. Normal tactics do not work.
That’s a good point, actually. I was think about that scene from Kick-Ass and momentarily forgot about the actual real-life Holocaust that actually happened to actual people. I’m sorry about that.
That’s an important detail of Israel’s genocide, but it’s not critical to the idea of genocide.
It’s perfectly reasonable for a minority population within a country to be oppressed despite being citizens, for that oppression to lead to an insurgent rebellion and for the response to that to be genocidal.
The use of genocide does mean that the conflict is probably along ethnic lines rather than being something like a broader popular uprising against a dictator.
Hey guys lets not lose sight of the fact that this is a comic about college students. The point of the story is not to Get Into Israel With All The Nuance Therein it’s to just facilitate interactions between the characters. That’s it.
Then that’s sort of a bad pandora’s box to open. We didn’t HAVE to center this storyline on a protest that harkens back to a particularly recent event that is particularly touchy for a lotta people. You just gotta accept a lot of people will feel very strongly about its inclusion and that “it’s just a comic” won’t dismiss those feelings.
bestie sometimes authors who care about things write about the things they care about. sometimes those things they write even end up being fictional.
The comic is firmly anti-genocide, which is not a problem, and is in fact a low bar that many popular franchises fail to clear and even revel in going under. DoA is not bigoted against or causing problems for anyone anti-genocide, it really doesn’t matter if what’s being talked about can’t always be mapped 1:1 onto real world fascist movements. A story saying “Genocide is bad” and tripping a bit is better than a story pretending these aren’t things young people have to worry about or going the other way entirely. It’s fine, you’re on the same side, you can chill a bit.
also please read yesterday’s comments again, i’m not going to genuinely tell you i was sorry for being a dick and have you not read it.
They were responding to a comment saying that the protest is just a surface level event and not to take it to seriously. The counterpoint is that BECAUSE people take this seriously half easing this story makes people upset. Maybe people dont like their entertainment to remind them of the genocide happening right this second right now. But if we are including it then at least…have something more to say other than “genocide bad”. This isn’t some background element either. This whole storyline is built around this event. We’re well within our rights to complain about the implementation since the author of their own free will included it in the story. I don’t think a lotta people were clambering for a genocide protest arc
its just such a weird complaint to come back to over and over again. especially when the storyline isnt even over or long enough for anyone to even grasp where its going with all of this.
dumbing of age has always been a story about, among other things, overcoming problematic upbringings. Joyce and Carla have been highlighted specifically in this arc as characters who need to grow during this time and better themselves (also god i hope Dorothy, jesus fuck girl you are SUCH a liberal), and we haven’t seen them get to do that yet. the story is still happening, you can’t say its half-assed when its not even done.
like yeah, things have been rushed in some areas and the main cast is suffocatingly white, but none of that is *new,* nor are those complaints anyone was making day after day *before* the main characters stood up against the state. so i’m just like. why? why are we still here? you’re yelling at an in-progress speedpaint for not having the shading done or being in watercolor.
Allegories AREN’T ONE TO ONE. The POINT of an allegory is to take the core moral crux of a situation and *explicitly separate it* from the real-life situation you are trying to allegorize so that people can step back and see the issue impartially. The message here is “Hey, guys, genocide is bad, and these characters all think genocide is bad. Maybe don’t genocide people. I wonder if there are any genocides that might deserve a looking at.”
The “nuances” of the thing being allegorized only matter if they defuse the moral argument. And they FUCKING DON’T here. None of the details about israel and palestine have anything to do with whether or not bombing children is bad, or if cracking down on protesters is bad.
And make sure it’s the TDAP/DTAP version, latest research indicates you really need the pertussis booster every five years (as opposed to approximately every ten for tetanus).
Hank may have a soft spot for his loved ones and less actively culty than his ex-wife but yeesh, that’s never a guarantee for the rest of his beliefs.
Holding out hope this is just a little stakes-setter to make his reaction uncertain. I’m not terribly interested in Hank getting into a debate about protests with anyone.
The politics are so incredibly vague if we don’t use RL to fill in the blanks, we have to draw inference soley because Jocelyne is always right. Dorothy is probably more aware but wasn’t planning on protesting so it wasn’t an important issue to her for example.
I was talking with friends earlier about ship names and how they prefer when the ship has a clever name rather than just shoving the names together. So I thought I’d ask, what would be some good ship names for the DOA ships.
I’ll never top Garbage Scow for Amber and Walky.
IMO, that’s often because knowing the name of the ship is a shibboleth for the community – it lets those who are “in on it” identify those who are not, and feel good about that.
Yes. I am a trailing edge boomer or a leading edge Xer, and if I’d married right of college my children would be long since grown up. My grandchildren might even be in college.
Yeah Hank and Carol probably aren’t super old considering families like theirs tend to marry/have kids early. If I’m guesstimating John to be in his late 20s, the Browns would likely be late 40s/early 50s. Which puts them as Baby Boomers when the strip started.
Joyce said that Hank was 60, and 1965 is considered the first birth year for Gen X, so starting this year he is a Gen Xer. Every previous year that we read the comic, though, he was a Boomer.
Yeah even if he’s been on a bit of a journey of self-discovery (which is maybe true?) I would be astonished if he flipped the other way on this issue, because believing this kind of thing is not all that related to whether you believe gay people deserve rights.
Exactly. Just because Hank has shown to be a decent guy so far doesn’t mean he’s going to suddenly agree with everybody here on everything and just because he doesn’t agree with everybody here on everything doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy
People aren’t saying he’s bad because he doesn’t agree with them on everything. People are saying he’s bad because he’s supporting genocide. That’s kind of one of those things that’s inherently bad to do.
I don’t agree with that, but I don’t necessarily consider someone a bad person if they have some bad beliefs. There is a difference between Hank’s stance here (ignorance, probably willful) and hatred.
Being old and indoctrinated in theofascism explains his actions, but doesn’t excuse them
Very on brand for folks of that type of conservative to not think at all about their positions on issues and just accept the propaganda framing until/unless it starts directly affecting someone they care about. He might have a chance of accepting Jocelyne, he might have a chance of changing his position on the protests, but he’d have to personally know someone badly affected by his position first before he’d start actually thinking about it instead of outsourcing his thinking to the news/opinion channel and/or his pastor.
Yep. I’m sure his opinion is just based on what he’s heard from his pastor and right wing news. I love that he’s open to discussing it with Dorothy and I love that Dorothy is able to open a dialogue to try to understand his point of view so that she can change it, without getting immediately angry combative. Because that’s how you effectively change people’s minds.
Even through all the pain, Becky knows that is at stake here. Joyce and Dorothy NEED to find her Sister before the father does, they need to make sure she is safe and can escape the situation.
Its also important that they are away from the father if something happens that could out them in a more obvious way.
Becky you are the MVP, I hope that Dina can bring you back down to a healthy mental state and give you all the love you hoped to get from Joyce.
well i’m sure they could catch up on safe topics if not also him getting to know dina better as well while joyce gets rid of all the evidence/tries to let ppl know that her dad isn’t aware (thto awkward if her group chat wa s public to him too)
Damn, he really is just Sayin’ Shit™ right now. Complete gibberish comin’ outta this guy. Maybe he’ll die soon and the other characters won’t have to listen to his brain melting in real time anymore.
They can try all they want, but unless your comment gets reported a whole bunch times, you said what the fuck you said and anyone who doesn’t agree can only type at you about it. Ain’t none of us got a time machine and your home address, so nobody can stop you from having said it, any more than we can un-fuck your mom.
Aside from Megan being the prophesied bringer of doom in at least one obscure religion in Romania, true. But it’s good form for Americans to stay out of that kinda business, so even if Megan is the one the Romanians call “Pisica de pe Buturugă“, it would be #problematic for anyone who’s not from that country to get involved.
you should rewash your parts after that btw. i know you probably showered after, but that mess is toxic in more ways than I can count, you gotta SCRUB.
Still hoping for accidental, though. Accidental in this case meaning, “Brainwashed but good natured enough that if somebody can crack that propaganda casing, they will realize they were tricked and switch tracks”
Holding out hope because Hank is still being more reasonable than my own dad >.> Sister and I are kinda… Holding out for his death
I think willy nilly killing characters would defeat the entire premise of the comic. It’s a funny dutty lil’ college strip. Mike, Blaine, and Toe Dad all died for narrative purpose. I don’t see Hank’s death really doing anything for the story.
Nobody dies in the Duck Season bit, Daffy just gets confused into losing and saying the opposite of what he started out saying. I guess he does get shot in the face, but he’s fine afterward.
Dorothy: They’re victims!
Hank: They’re terrorists!
Dot: They’re victims!
Hank: They’re terrorists!
Dot: They’re… terrorists!
Hank: They’re victims!
Dot: They’re terrorists!
Hank: If I say they’re victims, they’re victims! Joyce, hand me that protest sign, we’ve a genocide to protest!
Yeah. I deliberately choose the 3 of them because Mormonism and Episcopalism are notably organized and while Islam can be quite decentralized it is broadly considered an organized religion and her denomination might be quite structured.
But yes, sierra, Lucy,becky etal are also known to attend what would be an organized church
I meant to say that he is a member of Joyce’s particular group. As much as we know he divorced his wife over the kidnapping, we don’t know if he’s distanced himself from that particular church going mindset.
I’m almost positive that Hank would have left the particular organization. Considering he divorced his wife for backing them, which seems like a much higher threshold.
The problem is, what Hank constantly churning through churches when Joyce was younger says to me that his mindset is “if I just find the right church, everything will be perfect”- that he hasn’t confronted that it’s the evangelical mindset as a whole that results in every single church being filled with bad actors.
Sounds like Hank hasn’t really thought about the nonsense he’s saying in the first half of this strip. If he did he might realize how ridiculous he sounds.
ironic he of all ppl is talking about ‘propaganda’ tho even after teh divorce possible he still goes to church on the far opposite end of where carol sits if not a diff church (since joyce mentioned they changed churches multiple times)
In the next strip he even says, “We don’t know that these folks are monsters YET. They could still be people.”
And then they helped kidnap his daughter.
If Hank somehow HASN’T left that church, I would heavily consider just not reading DoA any more. It would be such a heavy departure of his established characterization that I wouldn’t be able to trust the comic to maintain consistency on anything any more.
Thank you for this. Re-reading that conversation between Hank and Joyce at the church reminded me why I liked him as a character. I KNEW I wasn’t wrong to trust in him, to know that ( like Joyce) he’s a good person at heart trying to break free from brainwashing.
Joyce had a lot of old bigotries to unlearn and so does Hank. Problem is, Hank doesn’t have anybody to help him through it while Joyce is surrounded by friends.
given the church is a fascist body and hank has openly stated pro-fascist views in the comic we are currently commenting on, I actually don’t think that sounds very out of character at all. Unlikeable and out of character aren’t the same thing, actually.
Hank has previously been established as the parent that can be reasoned out of terrible stances, I wouldn’t be surprised if the end of this storyline sees that happen again
It is just just the terrorists versus freedom fighters thing all over again. You pretend it is about tactics and methods, but it is really about which side you favor.
My insurgents are noble freedom fighters fighting to overthrow the regime for justice and freedom. Your insurgents are terrorists fighting to overturn the administration and impose a theocracy.
I think everyone saying that Dad Brown is irredeemably evil is forgetting who the main character in the comic is, and where her stances all started.
Like, yes, he is spouting regime propaganda. But it feels much more like we’re being set up for Dad Brown to need to have his own Joyce level character growth. Because parents CAN change. My parents were very much his level of awful before me or any of my siblings came out as gay (yes, the whole lot of us are somehow the gay cousin). And now his little dog wears “love wins” bandanas lmao.
Would be nice to see some appreciation for nuance and gray in the comments section but it feels like asking to see a unicorn.
I’m in a similar boat, but I do sorta wonder if we should consider “How much direct harm has this person done?”. It’s an ongoing thought process though, and I haven’t really come to any solid conclusion.
For me, people parroting talking points they haven’t critically thought through =/= a fascist. Do they enable fascists to take power? yes, which is its own level of lazy evil. Elie Wiesel and his take on indifference- how it’s more dangerous than the actual evils of fascism ect ect.
That being said, Dad Brown clearly isn’t indifferent. Here’s HERE, after all. And he’s not a fascist, look at how he’s smiling at Becky. Which means he can unpack this shit the way Joyce has, imo.
Or he doubles down and we all get to laugh at Bobby, I just think it’s way soon to get out the firing squad u feel me
I genuinely think there are conversations Hank can have to grow as a person and at the very least stop seeing the protests as terrorist support, I don’t class anyone “fascist” until they clearly and knowingly obfuscate the truth to further their own ends, or own up to a truly amoral truth etc. like the comments Bannon, Spencer, Miller, or that one that I won’t name here would espouse with full awareness that their position was amoral and that they needed to sugarcoat and twist it, as well as twisting more moral positions, in order to get enough popular support to seize control.
I think “How much direct harm have they done?” a good question to be asking.
It’s also good to remember that there’s a difference between people who have been brainwashed to believe something and the people who use said brainwashing to gain and maintain power at the expense of others. Which isn’t to say that there’s no fault in the former, but painting both with the same brush misses a lot of nuance.
I also tend towards focusing my hate and anger at the ideologies and systems rather than the individuals. I hate the propaganda, the nationalism, the training many people receive from birth to swallow it all down, etc. As for Hank himself, I mostly feel kinda sorry for him, as he’s been essentially tricked into believing terrible things counter to his fundamentally decent nature (which Lumino points to), and given his age and conservative tendencies, it would take a lot to shift his views, so it’s unlikely.
In other words, I’d consider him an unfortunate pawn of evil, not evil himself.
thank god for becky… i’m sure a degree of this is her trying to save joyce AND jocelyne from the “fallout” of their dad discovering their truths… after all, becky knows how that can go :/
Everyone seems to think Becky is just doing Joyce a solid here, but when I read this I had the cold realization that Becky remembers getting pulled out of college for being gay, she remembers getting kidnapped twice by her own father.
And then moments after she finds out Joyce is gay, her dad shows up? This probably seems life or death to her.
My thoughts too, there’s no way this isn’t trauma-tinted here, but I also think it is for Joyce and Dorothy, and people criticising their irrational fumbling since Hank arrived isn’t simply “idiots”, it’s “hey we were just abducted by a couple dads at the behest of the church you attend/ed maybe we are desperately trying not to incur yet more damage from our parents’ ideological baggage”, I’m not sure that Hank ever made it clear that he divorced Joyce’s mom partly because of her support for said incident/s.
I also think in a way Becky is lowkey happy to see Hank, they have had heart to hearts and he has acted as a surrogate father figure to her in the past.
Just to clarify I don’t support Hank’s opinions on the political conflict in the comic, but I also am thoroughly unsurprised about it, and as Willis shows here he is coming from a -very- Old Conservative moral position about it, which can be reasoned with usually given enough time and care, rather than the bloodthirsty or outright fundie/evangelical versions, which are less changeable in my experience.
And then after it happened, he talked to the Keeners, who talked to Dorothy, who talked to Joyce, who agreed to see him: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/breaded/
(If you go back a page you’ll see him walking away from the Keeners after asking them to tell Joyce sorry for him.)
One- Ngl all the I’m glad you finally figured it out and we were rooting for you two shit is exactly all of the reason I am actively rubbed the wrong way by this ship sailing. Like fuck that shit get out of here let people have close intense platonic relationships you goddamn assholes, the correct thing to say about this is “congratulations, y’all seem happy together” or something normal to say about a new couple. I am aware that this is my baggage, I am aware that this is adjacent to “one day you two will figure it out” and thus I have viscerally nasty feelings about it, I am aware my reaction is not normal. But irrational rage.
Two- Jesus Becky is such a kind fucking person putting aside her incredibly tumultuous experience of her friends to protect said friends. I’m sure she perceives this as more severe than it is, but this is still incredibly kind and special and she gets all the kudos for it.
That’s also rubbed me the wrong way. It took me a long time to come around to Joyce/Dorothy because I was so sad that the central friendship of the comic is now changing to a romance and in many ways is being retroactively viewed as a budding romance the whole time.
I really hope that view dies down and they can shift back to the seemingly more accurate view that their romance grew from a strong platonic friendship rather than it being secretly romantic all along. I know some root for the reverse, but as I’ve said in the past, shipping a pair as platonic shouldn’t be viewed as inferior or less valid than shipping a pair as romantic partners (especially since aromantic people exist).
As I said, I’ve come around to liking the pair as romantic partners overall, but there’s still some subtle amatornormativity which I could really do without.
It’s weird because I normally hate that trope because of the expectations it gives people of “Be a good enough friend, and you deserve romantic love.” However, this case feels very genuine with neither side holding out for “more” and instead the relationship evolving organically and mostly reciprocally.
Like yeah, still waiting for the shoe to drop, but it’s so weird that he traveled there to, what? Argue with his adult daughter on politics? What does he intend to do? Ground Jocelyne? Weird as hell.
Yeah, Becky’s definitely better off without Joyce. It’s not like Joyce was the first one to respond with love and support after she came out. It’s not like Joyce’s support kept her fed and housed for weeks. It’s not like Joyce introduced her to her girlfriend. Definitely better off without Joyce.
Cringing hard at Hank but this has been the popular stance until recent years especially if you’re less involved in what’s actually going on, and I’m especially not surprised Hank of all people would feel this way considering the community they raised Joyce in, but hopefully he’ll eventually change his opinions.
Considering what it means to Joss, I could definitely see this as a potential turning point for him to become a better person with his kids and maybe this could be the early stress tester if Hank’s love for his children is truly unconditional before the other, more personal pieces of news about his daughters drop.
Yeah. Like, this isn’t an educated stance, this is him reciting what the only news source he consumes has told him. This is something you’ll hear from normies on the street.
Hank rather aptly shows how a conservative christian church can wind up going directly against the highest law, “Love one another”. Give a million dollars to the Salvation Army and everyone eats and get medical care. Give a million to an evil church and they build a cathedral and demand a jet.
Sorry, sore point with me.
Not surprised Becky pulled herself together so quick. In moment of great joy she gives thanks to God for Dina, she would do the same in a moment of great sorrow.
Depends where you’re from, I know the know the Salvation army in the US sucks all kinds of ways but the Dutch one was a pretty early adopted of abolishing the idea that homosexuality is a Sin and has continued providing care for the LGBTQ+ community
Hank’s remark about “hand wringing at the result” shows he has been hearing that the suffering of others is an acceptable loss. About the most un-Christ like teaching you could possibly come up with. Hope that way of thinking crumbles on him quickly.
Somebody told me the other day that America’s strident and unwavering support of Israel isn’t even because they particularly like the Jewish people or out of sympathy for what happened in the Holocaust. The real reason why the US keeps on supporting Israel is because there is a sizable fundamentalist Christian voting bloc who fervently and completely believes that, in order for the Second Coming to occur, there must be a Jewish state in the Middle East. Thus, they will defend Israel to the bitter end if need be even if they hold disdain for the Jewish people as individuals and as a culture, because it is all so “the prophecy can be fulfilled.”
Of course, more cynical and logical minds would counter that the true reason is that the US wants a solid military ally/asset/base in the Middle East from which to project their military power over a strategically and resource-critical region, but if it keeps the people solidly on their side, then why not make use of it?
That first is the reason why the right wing in the US broadly supports Israel. It doesn’t really play into why Democrats do, since that fundamentalist Christian voting bloc isn’t going to back them anyway. Democrats do have a pretty solid, though much smaller, Jewish voting bloc, which has been very supportive of Israel until quite recently. And that support would probably swing strongly back if the US cutting off support led not to Israel living at peace with its neighbors, but being actually threatened.
I’m also skeptical of the “solid military ally/asset/base in the Middle East from which to project their military power”, since the US has for decades during multiple conflicts in the Middle East avoided using Israel as a base to keep from inflaming tensions even more. From a realpolitik point of view, Israel has long been a detriment to US hegemony, not an asset.
Give a million dollars to the Salvation Army and a few more straight cis people who don’t mind being preached to might eat but the Salvation Army is keeping most of that money for itself not spending it to feed people.
I mean I’m not exactly surprised – we forget it was a shock that Hank was willing to support Joyce at the fountain, this is a whole nother level. He’s an above average dad but that doesn’t mean as much as it should in the dumbiverse lol
Some notes on the politics, and Hank.
The comic has a sliding time-line. In ten years time, it’ll have progressed another eight weeks, perhaps; hopefully Palestine will have a just peace by then and yet the protest in the DoA world needs to still be relevant. So major plot points can’t really tie themselves to contemporary events by name. Genocides, civil wars, colonialism, etc have been constant for decades now and will sadly most likely continue to be so. But the specific site and severity does change over time. So Willis can definitely refer to them but can’t specifically name a real-world event.
That doesn’t mean he’s ignoring the real world and just focusing on the internal dynamics of a bunch of college students. The core dynamic of the comic is a young woman de-tangling herself from toxic religion (and there are others struggling out of toxic masculinity, or toxic perfectionism) and coming to grips with gender and sexual diversity. These are very much real world issues with massive society-wide political, economic, cultural, and spiritual drivers and impacts, no less than the militarism, racism, and colonialism that drive genocides. This comic deals with real-world issues all the time; it’s very, very political.
For most of us, however, questions of sex, gender, or perfectionism, feel like very close-up and personal issues, whereas ‘genocide’ feels like it’s happening ‘over there.’ It was courageous for Willis to bring that ‘external’ issue onto his campus; to better reflect the actual reality, while still keeping sufficient distance that his timescale can keep sliding. He’s made (and acknowledged) mistakes in doing so, but it’s still better than the alternative.
So when it comes to Hank, he’s holding onto and parroting unexamined political beliefs that aren’t just from his church, but what he considers mainstream media and the vast majority of the people around his own age. He’s shown an abhorrence for deceit, bullying, and cowardliness in the past, and he’s shown that he’s open to being accepting of his (informally adopted) daughter being gay and Joyce having her own opinions on atheism. But those are issues close to him, embodied by people he already knows and loves.
Also, he’s still stuck in a purity mind-set, where the ‘company you keep’ can be right or wrong.
He’s got a lot of growing ahead before he can be anywhere near empathetic about violence in another nation. And I don’t know that anything can prepare him for his child being trans. This is not going to be pretty, but it is POSSIBLE that he will grow through this and still be a decent dad to his kids.
Honestly, in a vaccuum, what he’s saying, and what a lot of people here seem to be missing, is that he ISN’T WRONG.
What I’m pretty sure Willis is pointing iut here is that HANK is the one in the bubble.
Yes, a country can defend itself, but in this instance, it’s clear that most of the students, and even one of its citizens in Asma, are the ones defending themselves.
It’s implying that Hank was the one who fell for the propoganda. Because he trusted the structures of reporting that are SUPPOSED to be trustworthy. But now? He can’t. But he doesn’t know that, nor did he notice the shift.
I don’t think we know that Asma is a citizen of Bulmeria. I don’t see it in any of her recent appearances. Unless it was mentioned in a Patreon strip or by Willis in commentary?
And the students defending themselves from cops at the protest is kind of irrelevant to the question of the country of Bulmeria defending itself. At least in theory, police violence can be used against protestors who are in the wrong.
it is wrong, even in a bubble, actually! Hank is super turbo EXTRA wrong in this strip, like wow just SO incorrect its insane. Genocide isn’t self-defense, and also if countries can defend themselves, why are some countries only terrorists? Is there a demographic difference that make some countries terrorists and other ones self-defenders? Hm!
You just invented “some countries are only terrorists” from thin air. Hank, in this strip, didn’t say anything like that. Bulmeria’s “terrorists” are its own citizens, not another country’s.
And also “this dad is the only dad I got left, so let’s try an’ keep things from blowin’ up again”. Becky does genuinely love Hank almost as much as Joyce.
Sierra ought to know better than to out someone to a random parent figure, when it’s likely that this parent figure might not be someone to be safely out to……..
I don’t think Becky even knows that Hank is looking for Jocelyne. Joyce & Dorothy have been pretty preoccupied since Hank’s text yesterday morning and I’m pretty sure they haven’t told anyone about it except Jocelyne herself. I don’t see any reason for Becky to assume Hank isn’t here to see Joyce.
First of all, countries don’t have rights, people do. There’s no right to have a national defense any more than there’s a right for a country to have a fire department; that’s an obligation on the part of a government to protect the population of the country from danger. Not the country “itself.”That’s the kind of reductive thinking that powers ethnonationalism, turns a country’s population into a single homogeneous unit, excludes individuals who don’t live up to their stereotype, and justifies killing children because they’re standing next to someone who might be a criminal.
And then justifies those murders as “the result” of “self-defense.” As if there was no possible way to stop people who might attack your country other than killing them without trial and their entire neighborhood and families too.
That seems a weird semantic argument.
The right of countries to defend themselves when attacked is well established in international law. It’s not tied directly to ethnonationalism or any of those other things.
The problem in Israel’s case is not the claim to a right to self-defense. Israel has that. No question. (Unless you want to claim Israel itself is illegitimate, which is an argument, but not one that’s really relevant to how nation states work and has horrific implications of its own. Israel exists as a country.)
The problem is that Israel isn’t defending itself. Israel is using (and sometimes provoking) minor attacks (minor on a national scale, not to the people directly involved of course) to justify continuing occupation and genocide. On a population that as the occupying power, Israel has a duty to protect. Israel has a right to defend itself, but actions taken to do need to be proportionate to the threat and they simply are not.
Well, the idea of countries having rights is a weird semantic argument. When and where were those rights established? What’s the process for reviewing them, adding or revising as needed to reflect our understanding of countries’ needs? How do you find out what they are? What organizations protect them? What even do countries’ rights use as a definition of a country? As far as DuckDuckGo can tell, if you’re looking for countries’ rights you want to know about human rights in different countries.
Indeed, “Israel’s right to self defense” seems to be the only recorded case of anyone claiming countries have rights. The concept of national defense may be leaning on long established praxis between organizations with enough firepower to hold their territory against opposing organizations of the scale we call countries (to be crass), but it’s phrased in this vague, sloganized way to make it sound like an internationally acknowledged moral truth. It’s designed to evoke the human rights, to blur the line between people and country, to open the door for ethnonationalism.
The arguments to defend the genocide deserve to be picked apart in their merest particle. Your point about proportionality has been thoroughly dissected but I think their rhetoric could be examined more closely, that’s all.
Beckys a good egg. A good friend. Thats WHY they were all broken up about hurting her like this. Not because they assumed she’d yell or be mad. And THIS….
A country has a right to defend itself but that’s not what’s happening in Gaza.
Israel are occupying Palestine and Gaza with a military force. They control Gaza.
Imagine after the second world war, the Allies in occupied Germany had started systematically killing Germans. Or allied forces in Iraq or Afghanistan did likewise.
Bibi Netanayu is wanted for crimes by his own people. He’s committing genocide, with the connivance of Trump and the Western Allies, in order to avoid going to jail. He’s played footsie with Hamas for a few years now.
I don’t blame Hank, the press have soft-pedalled the genocide and his very lines are straight from an IDF spokesman’s lips. He’s yet to discern the truth. He should meet Asama
…Apropos of nothing except the past week,
…any other trans folk kind of feel like we’re out here delivering pizza while Godzilla is stomping buildings all around us?
I can’t find the clip now, but at the outset of the spread of COVID-19 in the US, Trevor Noah did a bit about how people were going on about their lives as normal and continuing to do their jobs, while living in an old Godzilla monster movie with skyscrapers topping all around us. Like, bringing delivery orders door to door, all while dodging falling debris.
Right around the time Marco Rubio started talking about confiscating the passports of US citizens due to their imputed political connections, and then former chief medical advisor (and current US Representative) Ronny Jackson compared us trans folk to a “virus”…
…Any other trans folks kind of feel like walking targets at the moment?
…I know there is work to be done right away, and I do have to just reconnect my brain and do it. But right now, I’m feeling just as disconnected from the everyday “to do” routine as I did back then in 2020.
(There was an XKCD comic in 2020 about that sense of displacement from reality, but sadly I cannot find that either.)
…And, yes, I do understand that I am walking into a minefield by posting here again. I am sorry. Just — wanted to touch base with fellow trans folk about how we’re navigating these days.
(The passport thing and the Ronny Jackson comment is present-day, not 2020, just to clarify.
…And, just to clarify further, in case anyone’s confused, yes, I am AFAB, and no, my handle’s not a deadname — just an old moniker I picked up years ago. Real life name is more masc., but in a public-facing job, I am *seriously* considering trying to find a way to go more stealth these days…)
I know I’m prob starting to sound like a broken record for this arc but fuck man this start stop drama unsatisfying as hell. Literally any time these 2 have been put in an uncomfortable spot that could lead to some enjoyable interactions somethings come along and just went “lol nah continue running around like chicken with your heads cut off”
So now they run to warn Jocelyn and I bet her fucking mothers gonna show up or something at this point
I do find myself wishing they could hold still for more than three or four strips. Goodness gracious, they’re just ping-ponging all over the campus and accomplishing next to nothing in the process.
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Becky may be heartbroken but gays gotta help gays right?
also
Hank
…
NOPE.
Like I said, I want to know who is exactly fighting who in Bulmeria.
I feel like that’s something the comic is never going to delve that deep into.
Which, positives and negatives. It makes the whole protest arc feel a bit shallow for me but at the same time, it’s not like I really WANT the whole comic to refocus on geopolitical stuff.
Yeah, not everything can recontextualize current events like Superman did, and I wouldn’t want the comic to grind to a halt to explain it’s version of those events unless they’re really important to the plot since I read comics to escape the real world for a little bit
Technically Superman didn’t recontextualize any current events, the script was finalized before the whole kefluffle in Isreal/Palestine kicked off, hence why literally the only similarities were that there was a genocide going on in the middle east, it was sheer coincidence that a genocide in the middle east occurred. Coincidences like that DO happen. The fact that there were parallels to draw at all was just serendipity (or ill-fortune if you consider the Snyder fanatics used it as an excuse to call the movie “woke” and crap on it more than they were already going to).
Andor s2 was also written and filmed beforehand.
Both of these things were written decades, nearly a century, after the formation of the occupation and displacement; a project explicitly described as colonial in nature by it’s head architects. This isn’t a “centuries of nebulous conflict/oppression” argument, this is an objective description of a political project that is moderately well documented, but most people are horribly informed about because of it’s proximity to the dominant cultural hegemony and most powerful propaganda engine (Pax Americana, and even when the USSR was around to challenge Pax Americana, that Cultural Hegemony also often supported the colonial project for it’s own reasons).
And nobody in the US was kicking up a significant fuss until just recently. The Superman movie could have been made a decade ago and be shot for shot identical and nobody would be saying it was about that conflict, instead they’d be drawing parallels with whatever genocide was going on a decade ago that was making waves in the media at the time. I have no recollection of what it might have been, but I’m sure there was one, because there almost always is one.
The kefluffle as you put it didn’t come from nowhere. It was seventy-five years of occupation and genocide in the making. Opperation Cast Thy Bread (One of the earliest war crimes committed by Zionists against the Palestinian people) was enacted six months into the Palestine War (the conflict which established the colonial state of Israel.)
The parallels between the script and the actively ongoing genocide aren’t less cutting because the script was written during a lull in the active killing.
And, even if the script and cast were already locked in before October 7 2023, there was room to bring the parallels into starker contrasts: Wardrobe, Acting, and Directing all would have been on-going through the first year of the current genocide in gaza, and Editing through the second.
To dismiss as coincidence what was clearly intentional feels rather disrespectful to skill of everyone involved.
The oppression and genocides Jews suffered in Ottoman and British Palestine and neighboring areas goes back far longer than 75 years, longer than Israel or anything that looks like modern Zionism. Where one chooses to mark the beginning of the history that “counts” is very much a political decision.
We should all be leery of a fandom-ized interpretation of real world tragedies, especially when that fandom comes with headcanons like “this creator must see things my way, and if they say they don’t, it’s just an act.”
Jews were not uniquely oppressed in the Ottoman empire. They fled *to* the Ottoman empire to escape persecution from Europe. They had to pay a non Muslim tax, same as the Christians, but otherwise Jewish culture thrived under the Ottomans. I’m not gonna say it was a walk in the park but point those genocidal accusations at Europe, Spain was expelling their Jews and Portugal was forcing conversion
I do love the focus on discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world to paint Jews as victims of ages of Muslim oppression and thus unable to live in peace and justified in claiming the land of Israel for there, while simultaneously ignoring even longer oppression from Christians which should prove that Jews can never reconcile with them either.
Jews have definitely been fucked over by everyone at various times since antiquity. No denying it. Overall, it looks to me like the balance would have Jews living in Christian lands worse off than in Muslim countries – though there are obviously exceptions in both directions at various places and times.
The modern situation has been relatively brief, driven by sympathy after the Holocaust on the Christian side and the Zionist movement first trying to establish itself and then eventually founding the state of Israel in the Levant on the Muslim side.
I generally see two lines of complaints over this.
The first is that the use of a Palestine parallel was handled insensitively with regards to the real human suffering in the world. This complaint generally focuses on how the protests were used as a backdrop for a romance arc, or how Willis hasn’t seemed very engaged with the subject before now.
The second is complaining that it “lacks nuance”, or otherwise doesn’t portray it as a “both sides” issue.
I have respect for certain criticisms in the first category, but the latter just seems like it comes from people who oppose criticising Israel. They complain because the comic paints their side as bad.
Except we also have direct word from the director that it wasn’t inspired by Israel, and frankly I didn’t see anything that painted it as Israel specific. There was a genocide, that genocide took place in the middle east. That is where the similarities both start and end. There have been plenty of other genocides in the middle east over the years. And frankly while there have been previous periods of violence in the Israel/Gaza area that got some amount of publicity, I don’t recall anyone here in the US caring quite as vocally about it until now, so it seems weird to claim that any of that history would be relevant to the idea that the creators of the Superman movie cared enough to make intentional references to it.
They made a generic genocide between two fictional countries, and it happened to bear a passing resemblance to the genocide that kicked off while it was in production. The creators deny there was inspiration there, and frankly there are only so many ways to depict a genocide that it’d bear a passing resemblance to any other genocide that might have occurred in the middle east at that time instead, it’s not like that’s the only major conflict between two ethnic groups going on over there.
It wasn’t blatant, because it wasn’t a reference. I keep seeing people call it a blatant reference but I’ve yet to see anybody actually explain WHAT they think makes it so obviously about Israel/Palestine beyond the fact that it’s a genocide taking place in the middle east. What are the parallels that you are seeing that I’m not? What are the direct references? What makes Boravia Israel and not any other middle eastern country? What makes Jarhanpur Palestine and not any other middle eastern country? Why is it not relevant that in the movie it was one country invading another and not a civil war like the conflict you all keep claiming this is supposed to be representing?
The fact of the matter is that we get extremely little information about the nature of the conflict in the movie, or the cultures of the two countries. Heck the only character from either country that even gets a line is the president of Boravia and his lines give us nothing to go off of to conclude anything about his country, it’s culture, or it’s religion (if that’s even relevant). Because it ultimately doesn’t matter to the story. All that mattered to the story was that there was a genocide and Superman opposed it because genocide is bad. You can draw parallels from that to literally every genocide ever in all of human history, because they are all bad and Superman would be just as opposed to them.
There’s pretty much always one genocide or another happening in the middle east. Israel/Palestine, Saddam/Kurds, Turks/Armenians … it happens so often it’s a handy plot for a protest story arc even if it’s not happening at the time of writing.
Wut
We’re not supposed to think about it too deeply at all. The comic makes it clear that the protesters are right, and the naysayers are wrong, and that’s pretty much that.
That’s not a criticism on the comic, but just a reality of life. For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it. And to those who really don’t care, why, they’ll listen to whoever’s opinion they trust most and take it up as their own, because they didn’t have a horse in this race to begin with.
We all think we’re unbiased, but very, VERY few issues in the average person’s life are approached with a blank slate and no preexisting bias, with all perspectives equally analyzed and weighed. And that’s not a slight on anyone – I mean, hell, I trust that scientists are right about the earth being round, even though I’m not an astrophysicist and couldn’t begin to do all of the necessary calculations to prove it. I consider Flat Earthers fools even though I’m trusting others for it.
We all have only so many spoons. You can’t realistically do all the legwork yourself, not if you want to live life having opinions on the vast majority of things.
I mean, come on. How many times have you seen an argument online go something like, “I don’t care what else you say, your side does _____ and that’s inexcusable.” When what that means, is that this person found the point at which they don’t need to keep thinking about the issue. For Hank, that’s “Terrorism.” For Dorothy, that’s “Genocide.” And Dorothy would argue to Hank that it’s not actually terrorism and Hank would argue that it’s not actually genocide, and both would walk away feeling more vindicated and righteous for facing the radical.
Of the entire named cast who was at the protest, it’s likely that Jocelyne is one of the few who examined the situation fully from both angles, having been raised in her household and then deciding for herself later something different.
This. Also, the world would be better off without polarized news coverage, or, worse, news coverage only from your social media bubble. The bad news is that… that’s the reality for uncomfortably many normally well meaning folks.
Just go on a reasonably high mountain and look.
Or watch ships coming over the horizon; notice how you see the top first, while your view of the bottom’s still obstructed by the water? That’s a consequence of the curvature of the water, itself a consequence of the gravity of the curved planet.
Well, either that or it’s a ghost ship rising from the depths, but repeated observations should debunk this hypothesis.
Perhaps more convenient, but not available in all places: in some locations, you don’t even need the ship — there are places where tall buildings are visible over the horizon but their lower floors are hidden behind the Earth’s curvature.
There are a few more over here:
https://crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round
Just to add: Flat Earther’s foolishness isn’t in disagreeing with the scientific consensus, it’s in vehemently making claims without testing them, while outright rejecting counterarguments without due consideration.
By contrast, someone who hasn’t yet considered the issue might implicitly assume the world to be flat but doesn’t have the rigid beliefs of an actual Flat Earther.
Some did test the theory. The problem is that their tests were deeply flawed and didn’t actually prove what they claimed. The story is similar for many conspiracy theories. Supporters put forth “evidence” that’s either false or fails to prove they claim it does.
Sorry, I just get all excited about some things and I just love Carl Sagan’s wonderful explanation of how ancient people knew the Earth was round. It’s a very short video. Enjoy!
> For most of us, that’s how we handle real life. If you really, REALLY care about a cause, it’s because you already have a position. What you learn about the other side, is mostly learned to counter it or argue against it.
See, this is why I find human beings so frustrating – at least the neurotypical ones. I don’t know if this is an autistic spectrum thing or just *me* thing, but I’m absolutely *not* wired that way.
There is a model in my head of reality.
But I know that is *not* reality.
What you are describing is people trying to search for evidence to support that their model of reality is the correct reality.
I don’t. I seek to improve my model of reality. If I find evidence that contradicts that model, I adjust the model to account for that evidence, if the model cannot account for that evidence, then I know the model is based on faulty principles.
This is a conscious choice. It’s something I have *chosen* to do.
But it baffles me that most people do not make that choice.
It’s a pretty simple concept, isn’t it?
The assumption that you do not, in fact, know everything that is, and therefore, your view of reality is imperfect, and always will be.
I mean, that’s true for literally everyone that has ever lived, so it’s hardly unique. And yet, there are so few people that manage to figure it out.
However, to really live by that, two things are required. The ability to admit being wrong, and the willingness to strive to improve. The first is foolishly seen as an admission of weakness, and the later is a tremendous amount of difficult, frustrating, and thankless work.
Most people just won’t bother.
Good thing I’m stubborn.
OMG, I’m pretty sure this is the first time someone has mistaken me for neurotypical.
I’m not sure if it’s an autistic spectrum thing or not, but I 100% hear you, except for one thing. For the things that I don’t care about, I *really* don’t care about. Like, I could talk for ages about the narrative role that Booster plays in this story and how in some ways they ARE a reboot of Mike’s role, but sit me in a room with a real-life Booster and suddenly I really need to check DekuDeals to see if there’s any good sales going on.
Anyways. When I say “for most of us” I mean for most of us humans. And I’ve gotten that view after years upon years of banging my head against the wall wondering why on earth we all act so tribalistic and afraid of listening to one another. Why we come up with pejoratives to describe people used to think like us but changed their mind.
And what I got, mostly, is that most people are afraid of change and the unknown. They have their view of reality and the idea of shaking it up or tearing some or all of it down – and especially of admitting you were wrong on something – is like trying to redesign your boat while you’re sailing it. You’re going to have a breakdown.
Also that people really, REALLY like being right. And because they often feel their own inadequacies very strongly they get some sort of joy from tearing down others so they can feel more right. There are some people who just don’t feel complete unless there’s a battle to be won and an enemy to vanquish.
There are lots of ways to prove that the Earth is round. Some of them you can do at home. Given a stick, a couple of widely separated points, and some basic geometry, you can even make a pretty good estimate of the size.
I picked “flat earth” because it’s something that I feel like we all can 100% get behind, without people accusing me that I’m trying to secretly advocate that the world is a flat disc perched atop the shoulders of four elephants standing on top of Great A’Tuin the Turtle.
… though surprisingly it’s working out beautifully, because so far most people have latched onto that, and mostly either shared sites that talk about it, or other people who talk about it, or better yet, just saying that the other side is flawed.
Show of hands. How many people here have stood looking out over the horizon with a spyglass, specifically to see the bottom of the sailboat disappear on the horizon? It’s not something you’d be able to really see well with your naked eye. Of those who had, how many of you had then run controlled experiements so that you know that what you’re seeing you can attribute to the curvature of the earth, *quickly Googles* a trick of the light, with atmospheric refracting?
How many of you have calculated the geometry that John Campbell mentions yourself? How many of you have coordinated with someone in Alexandria while you stood in Aswan to see the length of your obelisk’s shadow? How many have done any information gathering at all, earnestly, for the other side?
I haven’t. I trust that those before me have. I trust that when Carl Sagan explains that Eratosthenes puzzled over the differences in shadow, that he measured properly. I trust that the reason why Polaris stays at the same point in the sky is because it lines up the neatest with the rotation of a round Earth, and I trust that up in space there’s not one astronaut gaping at a giant disc perched on a turtle while another astronaut holds a gun to his back, saying “Always has been.”
The flat earthers have. How do I know? Because they get it wrong! Human knowledge is based off of all of us collectively adding our knowledge together, proving and disproving each other. Jeff Goldblum’s character in Jurassic Park criticized Hammond for “standing on the shoulders of geniuses and taking the next step” but that is exactly what civilization is.
But we’ve become so divided that it’s no longer just “collected human knowledge” versus “crazy kooks.” There’s other cultures, other civilizations, and yes other political views, and you can’t just simply say “Oh, they’re all brainwashed, my way is the right way.” That implies an incredible amount of arrogance, simply because you were born at the right time, to the right people, and had the right influences, that to you the picture of your world says “this is right.”
There are a few things that I know for sure. One is that I’m certainly not the only intellgent person in the world, not by a long shot. Another is that I can’t be right about everything. And a third is that the best way to learn is by listening to others, especially those who don’t think like me.
Hell, ten years ago I was stuck in a Baptist church that was a half a step away from ‘cult’ but I found this funny comic strip called Shortpacked and figured I’d hear what it had to say. I can relate to the journey that Willis made, because he was a principal figure in opening the blinds and showing me there was a different way to think about the world.
So that’s why I say that we’re just supposed to take this at face value. Because despite the similarities, this isn’t Israel and Palestine. And not just because that would completely change a fundamentalist Christian perspective. It’s simple and straightforward because Bulmeria is not up for debate. Few things in real life are either-or, or neatly folded up into a box, and when Willis lets Hank give voice to his concerns, it’s not intended for us to sit down and discuss, “OK, well, to what degree does a country have the ability to retaliate and at what point is it genocide and what constitutes a “terrorist” to begin with?” It’s so we can sit back and go, “fuck, not only is he neck-deep in pro-war media, but he’s COMPLETELY missing the irony on panel 2, this is worse than I tought.”
The protest is on the side of the good guys. The campus and corporations are the bad guys. They fund war for profit. The protesters get tear gassed. If there is any nuance here, it will not be if the protest is good or bad, but whether Hank is dangerous or not or can be trusted or not, and also whether or not we can forget about the cheating for five minutes and watch two girls make out.
I’ve done the boat-sailing-away thing with binoculars. And watched buildings get shorter while sailing away from them. I feel a weird little thrill when things I know about the universe line up with what I can see.
Love your account of the role of Willis’ work in your escape
Well you got some breadcrumbs – it’s an insurgency, so it’s some form of civil war between a faction recognized by the Us gov and a faction considered insurgents/terrorists that nonetheless are citizens, though unclear if it’s revolutionary or seperatist.
Ooo, good point.
While it’s (imo) intentionally vague in order to accommodate the shifting timeline, the current reference point feels very much Israel-Gaza.
Especially since the protest is a clear and direct reference to a real pro-palestine protest that actually occurred on the IU campus.
Yep.
A good history of WWI at least has to cover the Balkan Wars and the Austro-Hungariab Empire (50 years worth). That’s not necessary here.
Starship Troopers wasn’t exactly a treatise about why Earth is fighting those extraterrestrials. but we got enough around the edges to recall some real world fascism and / or authoritarianism.
To keep the strip from getting anchored in current events, Bulmeria is an abstraction of them. For deep analysis of the actual Middle East, there are books and news articles and probably even some topical web comics.
I kind of feel this too, but thats because current events are a LOT worse since then.
and its really not about Bulmeria its About college protests against Genocide and how peaceful ones were violently disrupted.
and My desire for moral clarity now in the comic , is also because the ongoing sudan genocide was been mostly erased. ( to me too )
and because the Moral outrage of a population people being starved
This is actually another problem I have with the protest story here and to a lesser extent with the Gaza protests themselves. It’s very easy for the protests to shift to become about protesting – about free speech rights and about police violence against protestors. Which are important things and probably even more now than when this was written, but it’s still a shift away from the genocide the protests were originally about.
MUST PROTECT FLEDGLING LESBIBIRBS
it’s the law of nature
(yes yes bibirbs whatever they’re in lesbians with each other and that’s what matters xD )
So this is like flapping around pretending to have a broken wing?
I actually saw that happen this summer when I got too close to a nest with eggs in, it was “oh oh hon no I’m not after your babies” <3
But yeah, basically that xD
I’ve had killdeer do it to me while I was riding my bike near the cute babies. Not broken wing faking, but swooping real near me flashing their tails.
Wouldn’t pretending to be injured get a bird eaten more quickly? Predators love easy meals.
That’s the idea. A cat is near your nest full of chicks. You pretend to have a broken wing 50 feet away. The cat comes towards you, away from the nest, hoping for an easy meal. When it is 20 feet away, you stop faking and fly away. You have gotten the cat away from your nest and chicks.
It’s a reasonable take for the information that someone with the information the average american in a relatively conservative sphere had at the start of all this. The question is how he’ll react to learning the truth of the situation, you know?
To “learning the truth” or to “hearing the obviously correct and authoritative conservative echo chamber challenged”?
Hearing the “propaganda of the insurgents” of course.
And we should also remember that we all have similar blind spots and prejudices. In this fictional context, we don’t actually have enough information to make an informed judgement on the Bulmerian conflict. We can only respond to context clues that point to where Willis wants our sympathies to lie. Or to parallels between the protests and the Gaza protests. More sympathetic characters support the protests, while characters we dislike or at least distrust take the other side. That’s a common way to decide such things, but not really a good one.
She’s not mad at Joyce or Dorothy in the slightest, she’s mad at *herself* for being “not good enough.” I’m not at all surprised how happy she is to help.
Be great timing for them to run into carla/charlie and their input on it
A friend who you are mad at suddenly needing help tends to cool off upset and anger pretty fast.
becky throwing herself on the parent grenade for her lost love
This is still going to be 1000% more pleasant than any interaction with her actual father.
I mean he’s not going to be doing much interacting these days.
‘So dad… still dead huh?’
And yes, i am imagining his skeleton as two giant toe bones with a mustache.
You gotta admit, him being dead will make even one or two interactions pretty unpleasant.
What’s a college campus without someone messing with a ouija board?
Bad timing, Sierra, BAD TIMING!
It’ll be worse if those 3 made it to the cafeteria
The rest of the doem is waiting with balloons and a cake.
Pintsize has loaned them his leftover “Happy Arbor Day!” banner from way back when.
ROTFL!
at least it wasn’twalky i’m sure he would’ve said something worse
I’m glad Hank understands all this relationship stuff is less important than what is going on in a wholly fictional nation that has no relationship to ANY real life conflict past or present (even if he’s on the wrong side). It would be so silly if the girls were more worried about their relationship than that…or Jocelyn.
I mean, Dorothy is clearly still on point.
Yeeesh, I fully retract any defense I had been considering for Hank. What the fuck dude.
I mean, I’m hoping it’s a combination of Gaza/Syria/Ukraine and Latveria with a dictator that Monkey Master can drop from a skyscraper.
I’m just picturing that Boravia / Jarhanpur conflict from this year’s Superman.
Nathan Fillion about to appear and fuck shit up. Not as a superhero, that’s the other Willisverse, just regular Nathan Fillion.
“Nathan Fillion about to appear and fuck shit up. Not as a superhero, that’s the other Willisverse, just regular Nathan Fillion.”
That’s xKcd.
No, use his space name!
If he did just BAMF into IU, would more people scream “MAL”, “NOLAN” or “GUY” at him!
A couple of the professors – “CASTLE”
And almost assuredly a smattering of “CAPTAIN HAMMER!”
And only one quiet “Johnny!” from the back
I loved the giant ‘flipping the bird’ ring hands knocking the tanks over that was amazing and SO on-brand for Guy Gardner
I think he’s trying to be better but isn’t aware of some of his shortcomings.
yeah “results” is some way of painting bombing of schools and hospitals to eradicate a vulnerable, starving population of people of color
militarism and colonialism have long-ingrained traditions where Hank comes from, make no mistake
like, hardly a coincidence that Zionism is much more popular among white conservative Christians than it is for Jews, what with Armageddon prophesies and all that Dominionist bullshit
“They don’t like Jews in America but they like them in Israel because they think it’s a necessary part of summoning Cthulhu.” – An explanation I made to a friend while drunk.
I usually say they see Israel as a material component to cast Summon Jesus with.
With 3 billion Christians and 15 million Jews, I’m sure there are more people blowing shofars and owning Hebrew books in the former than the latter. The history that led to such a tiny population is one of the reasons why most Jews are Zionists.
Speaking of populations, a few weeks ago one million Israelis (as in, 1-in-10 of the whole country) protested nationwide for an immediate hostage deal and ceasefire. No Kings in America got 1-in-66.
On the “most Jews are Zionists” bit… here’s an article on the study that prompted the common claim that about 95% of Jews support the Jewish state”, as well as further, more in-depth studies that found things like
‘“Generally pro-Israel and supportive of the current Israeli government’s policies” (32%); “Generally pro-Israel but also critical of some of the current Israeli government’s policies” (35%); Generally pro-Israel but also critical of many of the current Israeli government’s policies” (24%); or “Generally not pro-Israel” (3%).’ (the remaining 5% or 6% being “no opinion”, apparently).
https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists
As to the million Israelis you refer to: while I don’t have numbers for this, from what I’ve seen, many of the protesters (and I’m hoping most) would agree with them, also being in favour of ceasefire and not opposed to the Israeli people in general. I’ve come across many people who are just as disapproving of the actions of Hamas as of the IDF, but still focus more on the IDF’s attacks both because there seem to have been a lot more of them, and also because so much of the media has been lambasting Hamas that adding to that might have seemed redundant.
It’s a very realistic depiction of most basic pro Israel people. It’s not based in malice so much as ignorance. It’s not at all surprising Hank would take the same view most conservatives do
Again, I think it’s worrying to try to fill in the blanks with RL.
When the comic draws deliberate comparisons to real life comics and a real life protest at Indiana University about Palestine, then the comic doesn’t ever explain the finer details, what else are people supposed to do?
It’s been pretty clearly for a while now that the protests were a reference to the anti-genocide pro-Palestine protests that happened at Indiana University last year. This is a fictionalized version so some things are changed of course, but that’s definitely what the protests in this comic have been about.
That’s true, but it’s also true that what little hints we’ve gotten of the Bulmerian situation itself are quite different than the Israeli/Palestinian situation.
Most blatantly, there’s no indication that Jews are involved in the Bulmerian conflict at all. Thus stripping away all the antisemitism complications to I/P and simplifying the reactions of our handful of Jewish characters.
It’s pretty clear that we’re meant to take the protestors side, but we can’t actually analyze the situation to confirm that. We can just rely on the good liberal characters being on one side and the bad conservative ones on the other. 🙂
I mean would adding in more Israel/Palestine context change the conclusion?
I’ve been reading it as basically a direct stand in for Pro-Palestine protests. So when I interpret the narrative I support the protests in the comic because I support the Pro-Palestine protests in real life. It isn’t because I am just trusting the main cast.
And yeah, if you don’t support Palestinian liberation you probably won’t like the protests being presented as a good thing… But in the same vein if you don’t support trans rights you probably won’t like how this comic handles the subject. If someone wants a world with conservative Christian values, this comic will likely seem like a strawman.
It isn’t making the argument for why Palestinian liberation/Trans Rights/Progressive pluralism are good because that isn’t the point of the comic. It isn’t a persuasive essay.
Yeah, I know lots of people who thought like Hank here back on October 7 2023, and no longer do.
I hate what Hank is saying here but I believe he can learn and grow. He’s been very open-minded for someone who has spent over 50 years in a cult.
He’s not improving quickly enough so he is the enemy and we must HATE him! I am very virtuous in my posts in the comments section of a slice of life webcomic!
You expressed my sarcastic feelings about the comments section perfectly
Ya I feel the same way. I’m not frustrated or anything that the comic keeps drawing away from Hank every time he is ready to open into a discussion or have some character development, but it is a shame that it does. The comic is about young adults in college rather than a 50-something adult after all.
What about a certain young adult at college and her changing relationship with her parents?
With a little luck, this could be the chapter!
You raise a point though. Some Patreon spinoff strips about Hank dealing with Divorce and post-cult trauma could be interesting!
These collective comics have been going so long a fair chunk of the audience is closer in age to Hank than the cast 😀
I’m not too surprised Hank has terrible beliefs on a state committing genocide considering his fundie background, but I was kinda hoping the divorce and his changing views on gay people and atheists and such from his past interactions with Joyce and Becky and Dorothy might have caused him to re-examine his beliefs on other things too. Sadly, I guess not.
If you’re being flooded with a ton of changing views because of your life being put upside down, it’s very easy to not *also* challenge the beliefs that only ever show up on the news. If anything, Hank being confronted with his kids being a part of the process might be the *trigger* for re-examining his views on this topic as well. It could be what drags it from the background, into something that his family cares about, and thus should care to him, to.
It’s possible that he has been re-examining his beliefs on other things, just not on other things that have bipartisan support. It can take multiple steps to get from “the Republicans are all that is pure and good, and the Democrats are the vanguard of cultural decay” to “huh, maybe there’s something to this cultural decay, I should try watching CNN and reading the New York Times” to “CNN and the New York Times are still evil but for the opposite reason.”
maybe he’ll meet mary and realize he’s on the wrong side b/c of all her…mary-ness lol
If this is essentially an Israel/Palestine representation (or at least close to) then this is kind of understandable. It’s insanely hard to think that displaced side that’s suffering the most aren’t ‘the bad guys’ when you’ve had decades of media blurring the issue.
I’m 41 and in the UK. Since the late 90’s (when i first began to even remotely care about the news) whenever i’ve heard of Israel and Palestine in the news it was vague and confusing. It felt like it was mostly summed up as, ‘the Jewish people, having rebuilt after getting over Hitler, are trying to get on with the Arabs, but there’s some disagreements over land borders and some Arab terrorists are taking it too far’. As the current genocide has escalated over the past few years it’s become clear it’s not that simple. The scale in power has been blurred. Other countries are fearful of calling out Israel because of antisemitism. Atrocities on either side are usually reported in equal measure. It makes it appear as an equal conflict.
But that’s to those of us who have sought out more information on the subject, or at least have news sources that will report on these things without a naive view of needing to seem perfectly balanced, we know it to be different. I’m guessing in this sort of comparative fictional-war-scenario, Hank isn’t getting that. His news sources, his social groups, his place of work are probably not going into detail on this, not reporting clearly, and so he doesn’t even consider this as anything more than fighting terrorist insurgent bad people, because why would he?
Becky saving the baby gays 🥺
Sierra’s poly dress is very appropriate. Also pretty.
poly dress? how so?
(I’m not contesting, I’m just missing the iconography apparently)
but yeah hilariously bad timing xD
…Oh god damn it LMAO I got the pan flag and poly flag mixed up. The orange throws it for a loop but the polka dots are blue, pink, and yellow like the PAN flag.
Or maybe more red… either way, dress lovely. Here’s hoping they take her aside later to ask for advice without Joyce combusting.
Also I’ll cop that maybe I’m looking too deep into it but Willis puts so many pride flags into his outfit choices (such as last storyline being Joyce in Bi flag colors) that now I’m looking for these.
Ah, okay, that makes it make sense. Thanks 😀
(And given Willis’s history that you yourself note, I don’t think that’s too much analysis here. As a writer, I, too, am fond of dumping hints early on, even – or maybe particularly – if people are absolutely not going to get it. It makes me cackle with glee. 😀 )
Agreed, that’s one of the biggest joys of writing is slipping something that’ll come in handy later and waiting to see who catches on!
Sierra is clearly attracted to all polycules, as opposed to two or more polycules
poly…ester maybe?
Polly and Esther and Sienna on top of wait not literally in addition to…? How big IS this polycule?
What have the Samurai Pizza Cats got to do with this?
I was actually hoping that Hank would run into Becky on the way in, but this is, if anything, better.
Fly you fools!
No. Hang around. Dig deeper holes.
Anyone else thinking Becky was probably channeling her inner Gandalf ‘Run, you fools!’ moment?
I wonder if Becky’s seen Lord of the Rings at this point. I know Joyce ducked out on a screening at some point but I forget when in the timeline that would have happened.
*points to the comment directly above yours*
everyone in this dorm knew they were gay before they did fr XD
Walky knew from the beginning!
They’ve been very bad at hiding it. Joyce, especially.
Joyce was incredible at hiding it. Wait, you mean from people other than herself.
Becky has her priorities.
Somehow, at least five commenters tonight are going to come up with reasons to be mad at Becky for saving Joyrothy’s asses.
Do you think they’re going to be the same one saying Hank’s position is perfectly reasonable and his opinion should be respected or are those going tombe 5+ completely different posters?
If it was Dorothy talking, I’d guess only 50% was correct.
But I assume Jocelyn is right about all things.
Sure, I’ll bite.
What the hell does this solve? Joyce runs away from her father… to do WHAT? They never think these things through, it’s all acting completely on impulse.
Why lie about birth control instead of telling the truth? Why steal a bunch of newspapers? Why run away from her father?
Becky distracting Hank isn’t going to do anything except make the situation worse once he realizes that Joyce is avoiding him.
Her father is an evangelical republican who is currently espousing racism and hunting down her sister for standing up to it, that is why. She lied about birth control because she was scared he’d verbally and/or physically attack her for being unsuitably christian. She stole the newspapers because she didn’t want her outting to get back to the church or either of her parents. She wants to run away because she only just escaped from this cult recently and has seen firsthand what men from it can and will do.
People who have been religiously groomed sometimes act on impulse to protect themselves from direct harm by active and/or former members of said religion. Just because Hank has done *some* good things doesn’t mean he’s not capable of just as many bad things as anyone else from the cult he raised his children in.
He’s here for Jocelyne for a reason. Joyce doesn’t want to find out what that reason is for herself.
Only a minor point, but she stole the newspapers to keep Becky from finding out. The paper copies of the newspapers in her dorm weren’t going to make their way to Hank or the church. Or at least were one of the least likely ways.
she was going to tell Becky right away anyway. That’s what she’d been trying to do all morning. But a published work can 100% make its way back to a family member, all it takes is one person on campus with fundamentalist sympathies, or one day of a family member being curious enough to check the campus website, or one evil, boundary-crossing parent who said she’d “Do anything for you” to the girl who is recently discovered to be queer.
Joyce is worried about Becky, she’s not *scared of* Becky. She’s scared of her parents.
There is absolutely no evidence that she collected the papers to keep them from her parents. She never said so. They didn’t even try to collect all the papers from around campus and while they went to Daisy’s office, they just complained and never said anything about the paper’s website.
Dorothy said when she saw it “Everyone’s going to see this and tell Becky before we get a chance”. That’s why they collected the ones in the dorm. Joyce did say she thought her dad read the online version, so she didn’t even think grabbing them would help there.
While Becky distracting Hank is definitely a delay, we have yet to see what Becky is planning or what Joyorthy’s next move is.
Why a dead eye in a room with no view?
Why pallid dwarves on a board that’s not true?
I understood that reference, fellow John Bellairs reader!
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Hopefully Becky buys them enough time to warn Jocelyne that Hank’s here and looking for her. So that she can at least be back in a boy disguise and keep the fight on the safer ground of her political opinions.
Joycelyne already knows this, though, or at least should expect it. Joyce told her at the protest yesterday that Hank had seen a picture of her, so she HAS to be expecting that confrontation to come pretty quickly.
Hell, they probably have a storm of messages on their phone (which we know they got back to, since they texted Joyce today) from Hank, so I’d wager Joycelyn is already preparing to meet him.
She doesn’t know he’s here on campus though. And it doesn’t seem like Hank texted Joyce to say he was coming, so I wouldn’t bet he texted Jocelyne either.
I just noticed though that Joyce seems to have her phone in her hand by her side in the first panel with motion lines around it. I’ll bet she’s texting Jocelyne right there as she catches up with Hank and Dorothy.
I think it’s mostly to keep him away from people who would accidentally out them to him before they’re ready
I’ve been hard on Becky for some of her behavior, mostly her possessive tendencies earlier in the story, not her recent heartbreak. It’s one of the major flaws in her character.
However, I think this strip shows that when push comes to shove, she doesn’t let that flaw get in her way. It’s a good example of what she expressed here:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/archnemmy/
She loves both Joyce and Dorothy as two of her best friends. There are some wrinkles in that due to the lingering possessiveness and romantic attraction, but when it’s important, the friendship wins out.
I mean im annoyed at it because its yet another potentiak for some fun legitimate conflict swept under the rug for later
I feel bad for Becky. She’s barely had any time to process whatever emotions she’s feeling and now she has to expend more emotional energy running cover for Joyce and Dorothy. That can’t be easy.
Yeah, this is definitely going to come back.
Wow, even when hurt Becky still wants to help them. Becky is the mvp right now; Joyce, and Dorothy, need to make their escape now, and figure out how to handle this.
What they need to do is warn Jocelyne. She’s in at least as much danger as Joyce, possibly more.
I think Joyce has. Look closely at the first panel, she’s got her phone out with motion lines around it.
i mean one heartbreak shoulodn’t mean that she’d throw away everything over it
I mean even if Becky is hurt she CARES about Joyce and knows how bad Hank finding out would be for her, and she cares about Jocelyn too.
Becky might be dramatic, bombastic and holding on to a crush but above all else she is a good person and she loves these people
Honestly before he appeared, I had wanted Becky to spend some time chatting with Hank as a better father figure from her youth than her own, someone who could help ground her. I still kinda hope that is allowed to be a thing.
That was my hope, too.
Haven’t seen Sierra in a bit. Probably can’t trust her.
My impression of Sierra is that she is well meaning, but is a bit odd and quirky. She might not consider that some people stay partially closeted with their families. At least she didn’t stay long enough to comment on her own relationships. I’m guessing Hank would not know what to make of it.
i doubt she has strong stances politics wise but i just hope she washes her feet more often than ppl usually shower if she’s walking shoeless everywhere esp outside lol
Wow, even when hurt Becky still wants to help them; Becky is the mvp right now. Joyce, and Dorothy, need to make their escape now, and figure out how to handle this.
I didn’t mean to let that repost, I was just trying to fix the punctuation.
well hank and jocelyn are basically her adoptive family now
she probably wants to avoid things deteriorating more than they already have
Becky’s hurt is directed at herself. She thinks she’s not good enough for Joyce. She’s not mad at Joyce and Dorothy.
Y’know with those glasses, Hank looks a bit like Josh.
Must explain why he’s a bit douchier this storyline.
*John, not Josh
Also the Bulmeria allegory continues to just be bad bad bad. Why aren’t the victims of this genocide even afforded a name?
I mean….they are. They’re Bulmerians. The big difference is it seems to be a Civil War not a war between two nations. Personally, I think it’s those mean North Bulmerians oppressing the Southern ones.
An important detail of Israel’s genocide is that the occupying state specifically withholds citizenship from the target population in order to more facilitate genocidal actions against the group. That’s why the “right to defend itself” line exists, because the Palestinians are ostensibly an outside group. The line doesn’t work if the victims are citizens as Dorothy suggests.
That also ignores the two state solution that the people of Palestine absolutely recognize themselves as a separate government with sovereign territory. Which is another reason why its not a 1:1 parallel. There’s only Bulmerians here, not Bulmerians and…Ultranians.
“Two state solution” in 2025 lmao
Typical American mindset. More States = More Better™, right?
The one state solution is pursued aggressively by Israel because they want to get rid of the Palestinian people.
So…
“So…” what? What’s the implied part here? Why don’t you people just say what you mean explicitly and without vagueness?
I thought I was being explicit. A one state solution in current situations is an occupation with intent to eradicate the local population. There’s absolutely no moral or political benefit to it except for Israel.
You need independence for the Palestinian people.
They tried the two state solution dawg, what the fuck do you think they have in place right now? Evidently, didn’t work.
Not two actual states. One state and one (well kind of two) occupied territories with at best limited autonomy.
It doesn’t have to be exactly the same situation. The point is that genocide is bad, and genocide comes in a lot of different flavors. Honestly posts like this just reek of the left eating ourselves over purity bullshit. It’s thoroughly unproductive.
Instead of eating ourselves and worrying about how pure each other’s reasons are for opposing a genocide, maybe we should try cooking the guys ordering and supplying genocides in a giant microwave oven on live TV, as an example to anyone else who might start getting ideas.
It’s a strong message, I think: “Don’t fucking genocide anyone, or we’ll cook you alive while the world watches.”
And before anyone potentially gets on my case for making jokes or something, I’m dead serious. Big fancy court rooms, military guys with guns, super duper secure prisons, guys in suits with guns, those are too mundane and normal and everyone’s used to them. Nobody takes that shit seriously as it is. I’m 100% genuine and earnest when I say we can have the boring military guys in their boring beige fatigues collect the leaders behind the genocide, but once the guy’s out of his stupid little hidey hole, get the fucking camera crew and start broadcasting worldwide. Anyone can read a headline that says “Leader of Terrorist Group Killed In Gunfight” and just move on, but everyone’s gonna pay attention if you’re like “Stop what you’re fucking doing. This is the guy, this is what he’s been doing, this is what we’re gonna do to these freaks from now on.” and then they watch a clown smash him with a giant mallet. Normal tactics do not work.
Not sure advocating for cooking people in giant ovens is “anti-genocide” enough, given past incidences of cooking people in giant ovens.
That’s a good point, actually. I was think about that scene from Kick-Ass and momentarily forgot about the actual real-life Holocaust that actually happened to actual people. I’m sorry about that.
The lesson of the story is: Mark Millar sucks
I had to look up who that even is. Being involved with Civil War is bad enough.
fr fr
Could be a revolutionary insurgency where the insurgent goal is to topple the government ala syria
That’s an important detail of Israel’s genocide, but it’s not critical to the idea of genocide.
It’s perfectly reasonable for a minority population within a country to be oppressed despite being citizens, for that oppression to lead to an insurgent rebellion and for the response to that to be genocidal.
The use of genocide does mean that the conflict is probably along ethnic lines rather than being something like a broader popular uprising against a dictator.
Hey guys lets not lose sight of the fact that this is a comic about college students. The point of the story is not to Get Into Israel With All The Nuance Therein it’s to just facilitate interactions between the characters. That’s it.
Then that’s sort of a bad pandora’s box to open. We didn’t HAVE to center this storyline on a protest that harkens back to a particularly recent event that is particularly touchy for a lotta people. You just gotta accept a lot of people will feel very strongly about its inclusion and that “it’s just a comic” won’t dismiss those feelings.
Then don’t make a genocide allegory!
bestie sometimes authors who care about things write about the things they care about. sometimes those things they write even end up being fictional.
The comic is firmly anti-genocide, which is not a problem, and is in fact a low bar that many popular franchises fail to clear and even revel in going under. DoA is not bigoted against or causing problems for anyone anti-genocide, it really doesn’t matter if what’s being talked about can’t always be mapped 1:1 onto real world fascist movements. A story saying “Genocide is bad” and tripping a bit is better than a story pretending these aren’t things young people have to worry about or going the other way entirely. It’s fine, you’re on the same side, you can chill a bit.
also please read yesterday’s comments again, i’m not going to genuinely tell you i was sorry for being a dick and have you not read it.
They were responding to a comment saying that the protest is just a surface level event and not to take it to seriously. The counterpoint is that BECAUSE people take this seriously half easing this story makes people upset. Maybe people dont like their entertainment to remind them of the genocide happening right this second right now. But if we are including it then at least…have something more to say other than “genocide bad”. This isn’t some background element either. This whole storyline is built around this event. We’re well within our rights to complain about the implementation since the author of their own free will included it in the story. I don’t think a lotta people were clambering for a genocide protest arc
its just such a weird complaint to come back to over and over again. especially when the storyline isnt even over or long enough for anyone to even grasp where its going with all of this.
dumbing of age has always been a story about, among other things, overcoming problematic upbringings. Joyce and Carla have been highlighted specifically in this arc as characters who need to grow during this time and better themselves (also god i hope Dorothy, jesus fuck girl you are SUCH a liberal), and we haven’t seen them get to do that yet. the story is still happening, you can’t say its half-assed when its not even done.
like yeah, things have been rushed in some areas and the main cast is suffocatingly white, but none of that is *new,* nor are those complaints anyone was making day after day *before* the main characters stood up against the state. so i’m just like. why? why are we still here? you’re yelling at an in-progress speedpaint for not having the shading done or being in watercolor.
Allegories AREN’T ONE TO ONE. The POINT of an allegory is to take the core moral crux of a situation and *explicitly separate it* from the real-life situation you are trying to allegorize so that people can step back and see the issue impartially. The message here is “Hey, guys, genocide is bad, and these characters all think genocide is bad. Maybe don’t genocide people. I wonder if there are any genocides that might deserve a looking at.”
The “nuances” of the thing being allegorized only matter if they defuse the moral argument. And they FUCKING DON’T here. None of the details about israel and palestine have anything to do with whether or not bombing children is bad, or if cracking down on protesters is bad.
Oh, Sierra’s still going barefoot in the winter, I respect the commitment.
I had a friend like that back in the day, she legit went barefoot 80% of the time. She spent her money on preventative tetanus shots instead of shoes
You don’t really need more tetanus shots because you go barefoot. It’s not like it wears off faster the more times you get cut/exposed.
And you should definitely have a tetanus shot anyway. Before they take all our vaccines away. (On my mind because I got a booster Monday.)
And make sure it’s the TDAP/DTAP version, latest research indicates you really need the pertussis booster every five years (as opposed to approximately every ten for tetanus).
Becky with the save! Okay now Sierra come back they have some questions for you–
Becky, you’re a real one.
Sierra’s on sickos team confirmated.
Put on a brave and/or cheerful face.
She’s very good at that.
She’s had a lot of practice.
Hank may have a soft spot for his loved ones and less actively culty than his ex-wife but yeesh, that’s never a guarantee for the rest of his beliefs.
Holding out hope this is just a little stakes-setter to make his reaction uncertain. I’m not terribly interested in Hank getting into a debate about protests with anyone.
The politics are so incredibly vague if we don’t use RL to fill in the blanks, we have to draw inference soley because Jocelyne is always right. Dorothy is probably more aware but wasn’t planning on protesting so it wasn’t an important issue to her for example.
@phipps Jocelyne did say “i’m their fave because they know the least about me”
Becky is the absolute best.
I was talking with friends earlier about ship names and how they prefer when the ship has a clever name rather than just shoving the names together. So I thought I’d ask, what would be some good ship names for the DOA ships.
I’ll never top Garbage Scow for Amber and Walky.
You could call Dina and Becky “Weird Science”
I thought Dina and Becky were already “Terrible Liz-bians” XD
Joe X Joyce = JoyJoe’s Bizzare Adventure
Sarah X Tony = Sarah-tonin
If “Terrible Liz-bians” didn’t already exist, I’d suggest “Phile of Lesbos”
And looking at Joyce’s newspaper comic and their utter transparency to others… “Read All Over”
…
Saratonine.
…
Like, dopamine.
I think they’re Beckasaurus.
Petition for Joyce’s, and Dorothy’s, ship name to be “Bisexual Disasters.”
What about Bisasters
I love it; Bisasters it is.
I feel like Ruth and Billie fit that moniker way better.
Billie/Jennifer still hasn’t confirmed herself as bisexual, and she’s no longer together with Ruth, so Dorothy, and Joyce, get the name.
What happened to Dinasaurus Becks?
Joe/Joyce/Dorothy = Id, Ego, Superego
Oh that fucks so hard
Billie and Ruth can be “Fight Pub”
Joyce and Dorothy have been “Theocracy” since way back, it’s even back in vogue now thanks to unhinged tumblr shitposting! https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/blog/continuing-onslaught-of-slash-contest-entries/
THEOCRACY (SHIP NAME) TILL I DIE
Also, triad Joe/Joyce/Dorothy: Sacred Polycule/Holy Trinity
Though I will throw both those out the window for the officially endorsed Willis name, JoJoe’s Bizarre Dorventure
IMO, that’s often because knowing the name of the ship is a shibboleth for the community – it lets those who are “in on it” identify those who are not, and feel good about that.
Joeyce still remains one that happens to be clever AND both names shoved together
The beauty of it is that it’s a rare portmanteau ship name that has both of the character’s entire name’s within it.
Laundry lovers
Oh gosh! The conservative Christian boomer has standard conservative stances?!
I think Hank is much too young to be a boomer. Speaking as one, myself.
Yes. I am a trailing edge boomer or a leading edge Xer, and if I’d married right of college my children would be long since grown up. My grandchildren might even be in college.
Floating timeline shenanigans. When the comic started he come be a Boomer. Now he’s gen x surely
Yeah Hank and Carol probably aren’t super old considering families like theirs tend to marry/have kids early. If I’m guesstimating John to be in his late 20s, the Browns would likely be late 40s/early 50s. Which puts them as Baby Boomers when the strip started.
I remember Joyce calling him a sixty year old dentist, which would soon make him Gen X until 2040.
Heck, I’m an Elder Millennial and I have friends my age with kids in college.
Yeah, my sister is Xennial and her kids are past undergraduate university age in into their 20s by now.
“Boomer” is slang for “anyone older than me”.
Joyce said that Hank was 60, and 1965 is considered the first birth year for Gen X, so starting this year he is a Gen Xer. Every previous year that we read the comic, though, he was a Boomer.
Yeah even if he’s been on a bit of a journey of self-discovery (which is maybe true?) I would be astonished if he flipped the other way on this issue, because believing this kind of thing is not all that related to whether you believe gay people deserve rights.
Exactly. Just because Hank has shown to be a decent guy so far doesn’t mean he’s going to suddenly agree with everybody here on everything and just because he doesn’t agree with everybody here on everything doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy
People aren’t saying he’s bad because he doesn’t agree with them on everything. People are saying he’s bad because he’s supporting genocide. That’s kind of one of those things that’s inherently bad to do.
We can agree to disagree about pineapple on pizza. We can not agree to disagree on genocide.
I don’t agree with that, but I don’t necessarily consider someone a bad person if they have some bad beliefs. There is a difference between Hank’s stance here (ignorance, probably willful) and hatred.
Being old and indoctrinated in theofascism explains his actions, but doesn’t excuse them
Very on brand for folks of that type of conservative to not think at all about their positions on issues and just accept the propaganda framing until/unless it starts directly affecting someone they care about. He might have a chance of accepting Jocelyne, he might have a chance of changing his position on the protests, but he’d have to personally know someone badly affected by his position first before he’d start actually thinking about it instead of outsourcing his thinking to the news/opinion channel and/or his pastor.
Yep. I’m sure his opinion is just based on what he’s heard from his pastor and right wing news. I love that he’s open to discussing it with Dorothy and I love that Dorothy is able to open a dialogue to try to understand his point of view so that she can change it, without getting immediately angry combative. Because that’s how you effectively change people’s minds.
Even through all the pain, Becky knows that is at stake here. Joyce and Dorothy NEED to find her Sister before the father does, they need to make sure she is safe and can escape the situation.
Its also important that they are away from the father if something happens that could out them in a more obvious way.
Becky you are the MVP, I hope that Dina can bring you back down to a healthy mental state and give you all the love you hoped to get from Joyce.
may not stop the others (Sierra’s holding a copy), but goOOOOO square panels!
what didn’t they do… besides each other
..becky what ? WHAT ?
i mean makes sense she would still talk to him but idk how long she can distract him from finding out
What’s Becky’s plan? Joyce can’t just ghost her dad all day. And if he’s wandering around unmonitored he’s morely likely to see a newspaper.
I think she just wants to make sure Sierra doesn’t accidentally out them.
well i’m sure they could catch up on safe topics if not also him getting to know dina better as well while joyce gets rid of all the evidence/tries to let ppl know that her dad isn’t aware (thto awkward if her group chat wa s public to him too)
My guess is she wants to give Joyce and Dorothy a chance to contact Jocelyne to let her know that Hank is actively here.
Bold of you to assume she has a plan.
Fym unmonitored, Becky’s right there
Becky 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Damn, he really is just Sayin’ Shit™ right now. Complete gibberish comin’ outta this guy. Maybe he’ll die soon and the other characters won’t have to listen to his brain melting in real time anymore.
Becky you deserve all the world and more.
Can we admit this guy’s a fascist yet
Nobody was ever stopping you.
several people seemed very eager to try last night
They can try all they want, but unless your comment gets reported a whole bunch times, you said what the fuck you said and anyone who doesn’t agree can only type at you about it. Ain’t none of us got a time machine and your home address, so nobody can stop you from having said it, any more than we can un-fuck your mom.
Not that we would have any reason to.
Aside from Megan being the prophesied bringer of doom in at least one obscure religion in Romania, true. But it’s good form for Americans to stay out of that kinda business, so even if Megan is the one the Romanians call “Pisica de pe Buturugă“, it would be #problematic for anyone who’s not from that country to get involved.
Google translate tells me that means “The Cat on the Log’.
( why couldnt you have made it the cat in the hat )
Take it up with the Romanians, my hands are clean.
you should rewash your parts after that btw. i know you probably showered after, but that mess is toxic in more ways than I can count, you gotta SCRUB.
Hopefully going in the direction of accidental
Which yeah, isn’t good, but at least accidental has a chance of going, “Oh. OH. OH WAIT WHAT. THAT’S WHAT-WHAT!?”
people don’t drop lines like “propaganda of the insurgents” incidentally
Still hoping for accidental, though. Accidental in this case meaning, “Brainwashed but good natured enough that if somebody can crack that propaganda casing, they will realize they were tricked and switch tracks”
Holding out hope because Hank is still being more reasonable than my own dad >.> Sister and I are kinda… Holding out for his death
Well, it’s a cartoon. Maybe someone can Wabbit Season him into the right opinion.
I think willy nilly killing characters would defeat the entire premise of the comic. It’s a funny dutty lil’ college strip. Mike, Blaine, and Toe Dad all died for narrative purpose. I don’t see Hank’s death really doing anything for the story.
Nobody dies in the Duck Season bit, Daffy just gets confused into losing and saying the opposite of what he started out saying. I guess he does get shot in the face, but he’s fine afterward.
Perhaps an example would help?
Dorothy: They’re victims!
Hank: They’re terrorists!
Dot: They’re victims!
Hank: They’re terrorists!
Dot: They’re… terrorists!
Hank: They’re victims!
Dot: They’re terrorists!
Hank: If I say they’re victims, they’re victims! Joyce, hand me that protest sign, we’ve a genocide to protest!
Yeah, exactly like that.
Hank’s a member of organized religion.
So are Asma, Jacob and Agatha to name a few.
Sierra’s been to church with Joyce at least once, too.
Yeah. I deliberately choose the 3 of them because Mormonism and Episcopalism are notably organized and while Islam can be quite decentralized it is broadly considered an organized religion and her denomination might be quite structured.
But yes, sierra, Lucy,becky etal are also known to attend what would be an organized church
I meant to say that he is a member of Joyce’s particular group. As much as we know he divorced his wife over the kidnapping, we don’t know if he’s distanced himself from that particular church going mindset.
I’m almost positive that Hank would have left the particular organization. Considering he divorced his wife for backing them, which seems like a much higher threshold.
The problem is, what Hank constantly churning through churches when Joyce was younger says to me that his mindset is “if I just find the right church, everything will be perfect”- that he hasn’t confronted that it’s the evangelical mindset as a whole that results in every single church being filled with bad actors.
He did distance himself from that particular church. That doesn’t mean he found a better one.
Sounds like Hank hasn’t really thought about the nonsense he’s saying in the first half of this strip. If he did he might realize how ridiculous he sounds.
ironic he of all ppl is talking about ‘propaganda’ tho even after teh divorce possible he still goes to church on the far opposite end of where carol sits if not a diff church (since joyce mentioned they changed churches multiple times)
HANK mentioned the changed churches multiple times, because he felt so strongly about doing what was right, no quarters given. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/quarters/
I can’t imagine that the man who was going through churches like that only ~12 years ago, who was angry and apologetic about his church helping kidnap his daughter, would continue to go to that church. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/won/
In the next strip he even says, “We don’t know that these folks are monsters YET. They could still be people.”
And then they helped kidnap his daughter.
If Hank somehow HASN’T left that church, I would heavily consider just not reading DoA any more. It would be such a heavy departure of his established characterization that I wouldn’t be able to trust the comic to maintain consistency on anything any more.
Thank you for this. Re-reading that conversation between Hank and Joyce at the church reminded me why I liked him as a character. I KNEW I wasn’t wrong to trust in him, to know that ( like Joyce) he’s a good person at heart trying to break free from brainwashing.
Joyce had a lot of old bigotries to unlearn and so does Hank. Problem is, Hank doesn’t have anybody to help him through it while Joyce is surrounded by friends.
Good people don’t make it to their 60s to call their own children terrorists because they stood up to a genocide.
given the church is a fascist body and hank has openly stated pro-fascist views in the comic we are currently commenting on, I actually don’t think that sounds very out of character at all. Unlikeable and out of character aren’t the same thing, actually.
lmao ok
Hank has previously been established as the parent that can be reasoned out of terrible stances, I wouldn’t be surprised if the end of this storyline sees that happen again
Nope, it’s all completely black and white. No growth, no development. Evil forever.
It sounds so much like what I hear in real life right now.
isn’t ‘insurgents’ another word for rebel? like, how america was started/the war of independence and all that lol
It is just just the terrorists versus freedom fighters thing all over again. You pretend it is about tactics and methods, but it is really about which side you favor.
My insurgents are noble freedom fighters fighting to overthrow the regime for justice and freedom. Your insurgents are terrorists fighting to overturn the administration and impose a theocracy.
Wanta trade?
Hey! I thought we traded insurgents, but my current insurgents are just like the ones I used to have?
No take backsies!
Ah no edits suck
My lame joke aside, you understood the assignment 😀
Insurgents is the word for when it’s scawy brown people. Its like expat vs immigrant
I think everyone saying that Dad Brown is irredeemably evil is forgetting who the main character in the comic is, and where her stances all started.
Like, yes, he is spouting regime propaganda. But it feels much more like we’re being set up for Dad Brown to need to have his own Joyce level character growth. Because parents CAN change. My parents were very much his level of awful before me or any of my siblings came out as gay (yes, the whole lot of us are somehow the gay cousin). And now his little dog wears “love wins” bandanas lmao.
Would be nice to see some appreciation for nuance and gray in the comments section but it feels like asking to see a unicorn.
Who said he was irredeemably evil? I just wanna talk.
As a rule I consider fascists irredeemably evil
I’m in a similar boat, but I do sorta wonder if we should consider “How much direct harm has this person done?”. It’s an ongoing thought process though, and I haven’t really come to any solid conclusion.
For me, people parroting talking points they haven’t critically thought through =/= a fascist. Do they enable fascists to take power? yes, which is its own level of lazy evil. Elie Wiesel and his take on indifference- how it’s more dangerous than the actual evils of fascism ect ect.
That being said, Dad Brown clearly isn’t indifferent. Here’s HERE, after all. And he’s not a fascist, look at how he’s smiling at Becky. Which means he can unpack this shit the way Joyce has, imo.
Or he doubles down and we all get to laugh at Bobby, I just think it’s way soon to get out the firing squad u feel me
I genuinely think there are conversations Hank can have to grow as a person and at the very least stop seeing the protests as terrorist support, I don’t class anyone “fascist” until they clearly and knowingly obfuscate the truth to further their own ends, or own up to a truly amoral truth etc. like the comments Bannon, Spencer, Miller, or that one that I won’t name here would espouse with full awareness that their position was amoral and that they needed to sugarcoat and twist it, as well as twisting more moral positions, in order to get enough popular support to seize control.
Another commenter linked to it, but I’m going to remind people of the kind of guy Hank is.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/quarters/
Give the dude the same chance to grow that we gave his daughter.
I think “How much direct harm have they done?” a good question to be asking.
It’s also good to remember that there’s a difference between people who have been brainwashed to believe something and the people who use said brainwashing to gain and maintain power at the expense of others. Which isn’t to say that there’s no fault in the former, but painting both with the same brush misses a lot of nuance.
I also tend towards focusing my hate and anger at the ideologies and systems rather than the individuals. I hate the propaganda, the nationalism, the training many people receive from birth to swallow it all down, etc. As for Hank himself, I mostly feel kinda sorry for him, as he’s been essentially tricked into believing terrible things counter to his fundamentally decent nature (which Lumino points to), and given his age and conservative tendencies, it would take a lot to shift his views, so it’s unlikely.
In other words, I’d consider him an unfortunate pawn of evil, not evil himself.
they do not get more real than becky
thank god for becky… i’m sure a degree of this is her trying to save joyce AND jocelyne from the “fallout” of their dad discovering their truths… after all, becky knows how that can go :/
Everyone seems to think Becky is just doing Joyce a solid here, but when I read this I had the cold realization that Becky remembers getting pulled out of college for being gay, she remembers getting kidnapped twice by her own father.
And then moments after she finds out Joyce is gay, her dad shows up? This probably seems life or death to her.
Life and death, in that Becky was coming back to murder Joyce but got distracted by Hank.
Don’t be ridiculous. She was going to murder Dorothy.
Too obvious. Becky’s a rogue element.
Yeah, Becky is martyring herself, which is noble but still really worrying because she’s just ready to throw away her life at the drop of a hat.
Thankfully I don’t think this is quite as dire and hopefully this will be ok.
My thoughts too, there’s no way this isn’t trauma-tinted here, but I also think it is for Joyce and Dorothy, and people criticising their irrational fumbling since Hank arrived isn’t simply “idiots”, it’s “hey we were just abducted by a couple dads at the behest of the church you attend/ed maybe we are desperately trying not to incur yet more damage from our parents’ ideological baggage”, I’m not sure that Hank ever made it clear that he divorced Joyce’s mom partly because of her support for said incident/s.
I also think in a way Becky is lowkey happy to see Hank, they have had heart to hearts and he has acted as a surrogate father figure to her in the past.
Just to clarify I don’t support Hank’s opinions on the political conflict in the comic, but I also am thoroughly unsurprised about it, and as Willis shows here he is coming from a -very- Old Conservative moral position about it, which can be reasoned with usually given enough time and care, rather than the bloodthirsty or outright fundie/evangelical versions, which are less changeable in my experience.
Re: Joyce knowing that her parents divorced over the kidnapping. Her dad warned them about it:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/02-to-remind-you-of-my-love/bbye/
And then after it happened, he talked to the Keeners, who talked to Dorothy, who talked to Joyce, who agreed to see him:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/breaded/
(If you go back a page you’ll see him walking away from the Keeners after asking them to tell Joyce sorry for him.)
Two reactions to this one:
One- Ngl all the I’m glad you finally figured it out and we were rooting for you two shit is exactly all of the reason I am actively rubbed the wrong way by this ship sailing. Like fuck that shit get out of here let people have close intense platonic relationships you goddamn assholes, the correct thing to say about this is “congratulations, y’all seem happy together” or something normal to say about a new couple. I am aware that this is my baggage, I am aware that this is adjacent to “one day you two will figure it out” and thus I have viscerally nasty feelings about it, I am aware my reaction is not normal. But irrational rage.
Two- Jesus Becky is such a kind fucking person putting aside her incredibly tumultuous experience of her friends to protect said friends. I’m sure she perceives this as more severe than it is, but this is still incredibly kind and special and she gets all the kudos for it.
That’s also rubbed me the wrong way. It took me a long time to come around to Joyce/Dorothy because I was so sad that the central friendship of the comic is now changing to a romance and in many ways is being retroactively viewed as a budding romance the whole time.
I really hope that view dies down and they can shift back to the seemingly more accurate view that their romance grew from a strong platonic friendship rather than it being secretly romantic all along. I know some root for the reverse, but as I’ve said in the past, shipping a pair as platonic shouldn’t be viewed as inferior or less valid than shipping a pair as romantic partners (especially since aromantic people exist).
As I said, I’ve come around to liking the pair as romantic partners overall, but there’s still some subtle amatornormativity which I could really do without.
I’d be super surprised if the comic shifts back to viewing it as friends-to-lovers, but that would be very nice.
It’s weird because I normally hate that trope because of the expectations it gives people of “Be a good enough friend, and you deserve romantic love.” However, this case feels very genuine with neither side holding out for “more” and instead the relationship evolving organically and mostly reciprocally.
Countries have a right to defend themselves, they never have a right to commit genocide.
also OMG HI BECKY YOU AREN’T DEAD wait why are you speaking in that tone
Because the last time someone’s (it was Becky’s) dad showed up right after they came out of the closet it involved guns and kidnapping and murder.
Of course she’s not dead. She’s only been gone a couple of minutes.
Well… Fuck Hank.
Also, Becky you icon. You are better off without Joyce lbr.
Like yeah, still waiting for the shoe to drop, but it’s so weird that he traveled there to, what? Argue with his adult daughter on politics? What does he intend to do? Ground Jocelyne? Weird as hell.
argue with his adult daughter about his other adult daughter’s politics?
Yeah, Becky’s definitely better off without Joyce. It’s not like Joyce was the first one to respond with love and support after she came out. It’s not like Joyce’s support kept her fed and housed for weeks. It’s not like Joyce introduced her to her girlfriend. Definitely better off without Joyce.
Cringing hard at Hank but this has been the popular stance until recent years especially if you’re less involved in what’s actually going on, and I’m especially not surprised Hank of all people would feel this way considering the community they raised Joyce in, but hopefully he’ll eventually change his opinions.
Considering what it means to Joss, I could definitely see this as a potential turning point for him to become a better person with his kids and maybe this could be the early stress tester if Hank’s love for his children is truly unconditional before the other, more personal pieces of news about his daughters drop.
Yeah. Like, this isn’t an educated stance, this is him reciting what the only news source he consumes has told him. This is something you’ll hear from normies on the street.
Hank rather aptly shows how a conservative christian church can wind up going directly against the highest law, “Love one another”. Give a million dollars to the Salvation Army and everyone eats and get medical care. Give a million to an evil church and they build a cathedral and demand a jet.
Sorry, sore point with me.
Not surprised Becky pulled herself together so quick. In moment of great joy she gives thanks to God for Dina, she would do the same in a moment of great sorrow.
*Everyone eats and gets medical care unless they’re gay, or trans. Sore point with me.
Yeah uh the salvation army is a bad pick here, they fully discriminate against LGBTQ+ people.
Depends where you’re from, I know the know the Salvation army in the US sucks all kinds of ways but the Dutch one was a pretty early adopted of abolishing the idea that homosexuality is a Sin and has continued providing care for the LGBTQ+ community
(tho I guess that’s kind of a moot point since we are talking about a very American brand of conservative christian within the US of A.)
The brand that exists bc Europe was too gay and heretical for the puritans
I apologize if that was offensive.
Hank’s remark about “hand wringing at the result” shows he has been hearing that the suffering of others is an acceptable loss. About the most un-Christ like teaching you could possibly come up with. Hope that way of thinking crumbles on him quickly.
Somebody told me the other day that America’s strident and unwavering support of Israel isn’t even because they particularly like the Jewish people or out of sympathy for what happened in the Holocaust. The real reason why the US keeps on supporting Israel is because there is a sizable fundamentalist Christian voting bloc who fervently and completely believes that, in order for the Second Coming to occur, there must be a Jewish state in the Middle East. Thus, they will defend Israel to the bitter end if need be even if they hold disdain for the Jewish people as individuals and as a culture, because it is all so “the prophecy can be fulfilled.”
Of course, more cynical and logical minds would counter that the true reason is that the US wants a solid military ally/asset/base in the Middle East from which to project their military power over a strategically and resource-critical region, but if it keeps the people solidly on their side, then why not make use of it?
That first is the reason why the right wing in the US broadly supports Israel. It doesn’t really play into why Democrats do, since that fundamentalist Christian voting bloc isn’t going to back them anyway. Democrats do have a pretty solid, though much smaller, Jewish voting bloc, which has been very supportive of Israel until quite recently. And that support would probably swing strongly back if the US cutting off support led not to Israel living at peace with its neighbors, but being actually threatened.
I’m also skeptical of the “solid military ally/asset/base in the Middle East from which to project their military power”, since the US has for decades during multiple conflicts in the Middle East avoided using Israel as a base to keep from inflaming tensions even more. From a realpolitik point of view, Israel has long been a detriment to US hegemony, not an asset.
Give a million dollars to the Salvation Army and a few more straight cis people who don’t mind being preached to might eat but the Salvation Army is keeping most of that money for itself not spending it to feed people.
https://craftyourhappyplace.com/eye-opening-reasons-why-you-should-rethink-donating-to-the-salvation-army/
So much for Hank being the Good Parent.
Being the better parent doesn’t mean you’re the good parent. In this case it’s the lesser of two evils.
Yikessssss
I mean I’m not exactly surprised – we forget it was a shock that Hank was willing to support Joyce at the fountain, this is a whole nother level. He’s an above average dad but that doesn’t mean as much as it should in the dumbiverse lol
Some notes on the politics, and Hank.
The comic has a sliding time-line. In ten years time, it’ll have progressed another eight weeks, perhaps; hopefully Palestine will have a just peace by then and yet the protest in the DoA world needs to still be relevant. So major plot points can’t really tie themselves to contemporary events by name. Genocides, civil wars, colonialism, etc have been constant for decades now and will sadly most likely continue to be so. But the specific site and severity does change over time. So Willis can definitely refer to them but can’t specifically name a real-world event.
That doesn’t mean he’s ignoring the real world and just focusing on the internal dynamics of a bunch of college students. The core dynamic of the comic is a young woman de-tangling herself from toxic religion (and there are others struggling out of toxic masculinity, or toxic perfectionism) and coming to grips with gender and sexual diversity. These are very much real world issues with massive society-wide political, economic, cultural, and spiritual drivers and impacts, no less than the militarism, racism, and colonialism that drive genocides. This comic deals with real-world issues all the time; it’s very, very political.
For most of us, however, questions of sex, gender, or perfectionism, feel like very close-up and personal issues, whereas ‘genocide’ feels like it’s happening ‘over there.’ It was courageous for Willis to bring that ‘external’ issue onto his campus; to better reflect the actual reality, while still keeping sufficient distance that his timescale can keep sliding. He’s made (and acknowledged) mistakes in doing so, but it’s still better than the alternative.
So when it comes to Hank, he’s holding onto and parroting unexamined political beliefs that aren’t just from his church, but what he considers mainstream media and the vast majority of the people around his own age. He’s shown an abhorrence for deceit, bullying, and cowardliness in the past, and he’s shown that he’s open to being accepting of his (informally adopted) daughter being gay and Joyce having her own opinions on atheism. But those are issues close to him, embodied by people he already knows and loves.
Also, he’s still stuck in a purity mind-set, where the ‘company you keep’ can be right or wrong.
He’s got a lot of growing ahead before he can be anywhere near empathetic about violence in another nation. And I don’t know that anything can prepare him for his child being trans. This is not going to be pretty, but it is POSSIBLE that he will grow through this and still be a decent dad to his kids.
Honestly, in a vaccuum, what he’s saying, and what a lot of people here seem to be missing, is that he ISN’T WRONG.
What I’m pretty sure Willis is pointing iut here is that HANK is the one in the bubble.
Yes, a country can defend itself, but in this instance, it’s clear that most of the students, and even one of its citizens in Asma, are the ones defending themselves.
It’s implying that Hank was the one who fell for the propoganda. Because he trusted the structures of reporting that are SUPPOSED to be trustworthy. But now? He can’t. But he doesn’t know that, nor did he notice the shift.
I don’t think we know that Asma is a citizen of Bulmeria. I don’t see it in any of her recent appearances. Unless it was mentioned in a Patreon strip or by Willis in commentary?
And the students defending themselves from cops at the protest is kind of irrelevant to the question of the country of Bulmeria defending itself. At least in theory, police violence can be used against protestors who are in the wrong.
I don’t think it’s ever been established Asma is Bulmerian
I’ll have to look through again, but I have a vague memory of it being implied.
it is wrong, even in a bubble, actually! Hank is super turbo EXTRA wrong in this strip, like wow just SO incorrect its insane. Genocide isn’t self-defense, and also if countries can defend themselves, why are some countries only terrorists? Is there a demographic difference that make some countries terrorists and other ones self-defenders? Hm!
You just invented “some countries are only terrorists” from thin air. Hank, in this strip, didn’t say anything like that. Bulmeria’s “terrorists” are its own citizens, not another country’s.
come on
BECKY…. Q_Q She’s such a good kid.
Congratulations to Linda for no longer being most hated parent!
Doesn’t Carol have a firm hold on that title?
We hate whoever is in the comic today round these parts pardner.
wow, easy
I think she’s still second most hated living parent, after Carol, it’s just that Linda and Carol aren’t here actively being shitty while Hank is.
And also “this dad is the only dad I got left, so let’s try an’ keep things from blowin’ up again”. Becky does genuinely love Hank almost as much as Joyce.
Sierra ought to know better than to out someone to a random parent figure, when it’s likely that this parent figure might not be someone to be safely out to……..
If Becky does what I think she’s about to do, she is the truest of friends to Joyce.
Even after having her heart broken, Becky still comes through for Joyce. She’s such a good friend!
Also, Sierra, great to see you, love the support, not the best time.
well it’s clear he fell for SOMEone’s propaganda…
Y’all, I think Becky is doing this for JOSS. They need to warn her
I don’t think Becky even knows that Hank is looking for Jocelyne. Joyce & Dorothy have been pretty preoccupied since Hank’s text yesterday morning and I’m pretty sure they haven’t told anyone about it except Jocelyne herself. I don’t see any reason for Becky to assume Hank isn’t here to see Joyce.
Beckyyy!!! Officially now my favorite character. They owe her so much pizza. Or something. A lotta hugs, for sure!
Can anyone help me find the story arc where Joyce goes back home to her family church and realise how shitty they all are?
nm. i found it
First of all, countries don’t have rights, people do. There’s no right to have a national defense any more than there’s a right for a country to have a fire department; that’s an obligation on the part of a government to protect the population of the country from danger. Not the country “itself.”That’s the kind of reductive thinking that powers ethnonationalism, turns a country’s population into a single homogeneous unit, excludes individuals who don’t live up to their stereotype, and justifies killing children because they’re standing next to someone who might be a criminal.
And then justifies those murders as “the result” of “self-defense.” As if there was no possible way to stop people who might attack your country other than killing them without trial and their entire neighborhood and families too.
Well put.
That seems a weird semantic argument.
The right of countries to defend themselves when attacked is well established in international law. It’s not tied directly to ethnonationalism or any of those other things.
The problem in Israel’s case is not the claim to a right to self-defense. Israel has that. No question. (Unless you want to claim Israel itself is illegitimate, which is an argument, but not one that’s really relevant to how nation states work and has horrific implications of its own. Israel exists as a country.)
The problem is that Israel isn’t defending itself. Israel is using (and sometimes provoking) minor attacks (minor on a national scale, not to the people directly involved of course) to justify continuing occupation and genocide. On a population that as the occupying power, Israel has a duty to protect. Israel has a right to defend itself, but actions taken to do need to be proportionate to the threat and they simply are not.
Well, the idea of countries having rights is a weird semantic argument. When and where were those rights established? What’s the process for reviewing them, adding or revising as needed to reflect our understanding of countries’ needs? How do you find out what they are? What organizations protect them? What even do countries’ rights use as a definition of a country? As far as DuckDuckGo can tell, if you’re looking for countries’ rights you want to know about human rights in different countries.
Indeed, “Israel’s right to self defense” seems to be the only recorded case of anyone claiming countries have rights. The concept of national defense may be leaning on long established praxis between organizations with enough firepower to hold their territory against opposing organizations of the scale we call countries (to be crass), but it’s phrased in this vague, sloganized way to make it sound like an internationally acknowledged moral truth. It’s designed to evoke the human rights, to blur the line between people and country, to open the door for ethnonationalism.
The arguments to defend the genocide deserve to be picked apart in their merest particle. Your point about proportionality has been thoroughly dissected but I think their rhetoric could be examined more closely, that’s all.
Good for Becky to recognize a dangerous situation is more pressing than her feelings
Beckys a good egg. A good friend. Thats WHY they were all broken up about hurting her like this. Not because they assumed she’d yell or be mad. And THIS….
can’t think of a much wore time for Hank.
Mr B. ?
Ooooooh. Joyce is going to be Ms. Bi. 😛
Also: Seeing what Sierra sais.
It would be so funny, and kind of realistic if the kiss ends up being a symbol and a cry against the injustices on Bulmeria…
Choosing not to contribute anything other than that I, once again, think the ‘bulmeria’ plot element was a bad idea
Gosh, Becky is showing such incel behavior here. (Not sincere.)
A country has a right to defend itself but that’s not what’s happening in Gaza.
Israel are occupying Palestine and Gaza with a military force. They control Gaza.
Imagine after the second world war, the Allies in occupied Germany had started systematically killing Germans. Or allied forces in Iraq or Afghanistan did likewise.
Bibi Netanayu is wanted for crimes by his own people. He’s committing genocide, with the connivance of Trump and the Western Allies, in order to avoid going to jail. He’s played footsie with Hamas for a few years now.
I don’t blame Hank, the press have soft-pedalled the genocide and his very lines are straight from an IDF spokesman’s lips. He’s yet to discern the truth. He should meet Asama
إن شاء الله
Or in this case, Willis.
becky is so solid, i love her
BECKY NOOO DONT HUG THE GRENADE PLEASE
…Apropos of nothing except the past week,
…any other trans folk kind of feel like we’re out here delivering pizza while Godzilla is stomping buildings all around us?
I can’t find the clip now, but at the outset of the spread of COVID-19 in the US, Trevor Noah did a bit about how people were going on about their lives as normal and continuing to do their jobs, while living in an old Godzilla monster movie with skyscrapers topping all around us. Like, bringing delivery orders door to door, all while dodging falling debris.
Right around the time Marco Rubio started talking about confiscating the passports of US citizens due to their imputed political connections, and then former chief medical advisor (and current US Representative) Ronny Jackson compared us trans folk to a “virus”…
…Any other trans folks kind of feel like walking targets at the moment?
Also, found this. Thought it was interesting:
https://walkypedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bulmeria
…I know there is work to be done right away, and I do have to just reconnect my brain and do it. But right now, I’m feeling just as disconnected from the everyday “to do” routine as I did back then in 2020.
(There was an XKCD comic in 2020 about that sense of displacement from reality, but sadly I cannot find that either.)
…And, yes, I do understand that I am walking into a minefield by posting here again. I am sorry. Just — wanted to touch base with fellow trans folk about how we’re navigating these days.
(The passport thing and the Ronny Jackson comment is present-day, not 2020, just to clarify.
…And, just to clarify further, in case anyone’s confused, yes, I am AFAB, and no, my handle’s not a deadname — just an old moniker I picked up years ago. Real life name is more masc., but in a public-facing job, I am *seriously* considering trying to find a way to go more stealth these days…)
stay strong, most of canada would welcome you!
Thank you, Embe13. That means so much to me. I am grateful to you for saying that.
I know I’m prob starting to sound like a broken record for this arc but fuck man this start stop drama unsatisfying as hell. Literally any time these 2 have been put in an uncomfortable spot that could lead to some enjoyable interactions somethings come along and just went “lol nah continue running around like chicken with your heads cut off”
So now they run to warn Jocelyn and I bet her fucking mothers gonna show up or something at this point
I do find myself wishing they could hold still for more than three or four strips. Goodness gracious, they’re just ping-ponging all over the campus and accomplishing next to nothing in the process.
I think Joyce’s just finishing texting Jocelyne in the first panel, so I suspect we won’t shift to far away from Hank and them for a bit.
Hey i have officially beaten silksong true final boss today! This game has been an absolute joy to play.
Congrats! I don’t play it but one of my besties does and she’s been loving it. I’m glad the wait was worth it for you guys!
Congratulations.
I’m on my way too but, sadly, my job aren’t helping me.
So glad Becky is able to put her hurt aside and step in to help anyway. I had faith in her, but it’s great to see.
BECKY TO THE RESCUE!
Becky is the best friend… stupid mood meds. ~<3