…Hey, how come its always the villains how get to creepily laugh when their schemes come together, and never the hero. Its always: “All goes to plan – at long last the world will bow before my will, HAHAAA!” and never: “At long last my, plans have come to fruition: Gerrymanding in Kentucky will be reduced 7%-15% by the introduction of a bipartisan independent redistricting commission. WMAHAHAHA!!”
I mean, there’s no evil laughter, but you KINDA get heroic (or antiheroic) gloating in “Leverage” whenever the heroic thieves destroy a rich bad guy and return his money to his victims?
I’ve been calling it out in comments for awhile now. Glad to see it called out in comics.
Besides, if they’re respectful of everyone, and they play their cards right, poly’s not off the table, which is most obligate (type 2) bisexuals’ best route (which judging by their actions they probably are).
Side note for those not up to speed on bisexuality and it’s unique traits…
Bisexuality is a spectrum, under which pansexual, omnisexual, and many other traits exist, but pure Bisexuality itself should, as no surprise, come in two different types:
Facultative (type 1) bisexuality
and
Obligate (type 2) bisexuality
Facultative (type 1) bisexuals crave to have a partner that is one of two genders. (i.e, a Gay/ceterosexual Type 1 Facultative bisexual man may be attracted to Men and non-binaries). Their relationship cravings are satisfied if they get someone that falls in that range.
A Obligate (type 2) bisexual, however, crave to have a partner of each gender they’re attracted to. (i.e. a nonbinary person that’s attracted to men and women [but not other non-binaries], and when with a man still craves to be with a woman as well and vice-versa.)
The fact that these two craved each other while already in close relationships puts them both as likely Obligate (Type 2) bisexuals (if we assume they’re not just poly pansexuals). The two key difference between poly pansexuals and Type 2 Bisexuals, is Type 2 Bisexuals don’t want *every* gender in their relationship, and many may want a “near monogamy” polyfidelity relationship (also known as a triad). This can make things very complicated for an obligate bisexual in a society that expects people to either be monogamous or swingers.
I was rooting for poly before but given the way they’ve behaved what with procrastinating telling their partners while doing stuff with each other I don’t know if they’re really able to handle poly currently.
This is very interesting, but I was unable to find any information about it by searching using the terms you provided. Do you have any links to sources for this? Searching facultative and obligate bisexuality got nothing but a reference to your own comment, and same with type 1 and type 2 bisexuality.
I haven’t read Sanderson’s books yet. I need to. I liked his writing on the last three WoT books. To whatever extent I was correctly guessing which parts he wrote based on RJ’s notes and which were RJ’s words, at least.
Oh yes you do. He’s a great storyteller. But not too many different series at once, unless you like repeating character patterns (this is especially true for the earlier ones).
Yeah, I’m a big proponent of the notion that, if your biggest problem with someone is that they’re being hypocritical, you probably don’t actually have that much of a problem with them.
In this specific case, yeah, Sarah was acting like an asshole. So was Joyce. That was bad. But she’s not fucking wrong, and attacking her points because she’s being hypocritical is kinda just admitting that she’s right in what she’s saying and they don’t want to admit it.
Yeah, going after someone for hypocrisy always feels weird. Like a smoker telling their kid not to smoke. Them smoking doesn’t suddenly making smoking good for you, and who else would know better how awful smoking is for someone than a smoker who can’t kick the habit?????
Like, there is a massive gulf between “good for thee and not for me” and this type of hypocrisy and people treat them like the same thing. It’s not even a fine line.
Really the only time going after someone for hypocrisy makes utilitarian sense is in the twin case of “they WANT you to do a virtuous thing that benefits them, while they continue to NOT do that thing in a way that harms you and benefits them.”
I think that there is a difference in pointing out someone’s hypocrisy with the intent of making sure that they realize their inconsistency, and trying to wield that person’s hypocrisy as a weapon because of one’s own weaknesses, or the weakness of one’s position in an argument.
I think largely the problem is when someone is ongoingly hypocritical. You were against something, then had an experience which made you involved with that something? Learning experience, technically hypocrisy. Having had that experience, but still being against the thing for others? Harmful hypocrisy
Aye, that can be valid. I just see it much more often when the people screaming “hypocrisy” are doing it in a “you’re also doing something that, when looked at it in a very particular and maybe not accurate way, is kinda similar to this thing I’m doing, therefore you should shut up and let me do whatever I want” manner.
Hey, I wouldn’t call that hypocrisy because here we have Sarah admitting that she was wrong before. Okay, not specifically about that incident, but I think if she was queried on it, she’d say so, too.
Hypocrisy is if you use a double standard, where she’d say that what’s wrong for others is still right for her. Not if she says that what’s wrong for other was also wrong for her.
Yup. Hypocrisy is a state of being at a given point in time.
When I was a teenager, I once got into a car with a friend who’d been drinking. Nothing dramatic, though we did get a minor bit of wheel damage by hitting a curb in a parking lot.
It’s not hypocrisy for my 50-something old ass to state, “Drinking and driving is stupid and wrong.”
Is she? Whatever else you want to say, Joyce and Dorothy clearly want to be in a relationship with each other. And here Sarah is like “Joe is good for you! That’s who you’re meant to be with!”
Sarah is right in that they’re going about it the wrong way, but she never can just resist the urge to try and make things the way she wants them to be, can she?
I dunno, I feel like this chat section thinks Sarah is the avatar of wisdom, but I see an interfering busybody who has caused more damage with her attempts to fix things than she’s mitigated, mostly because her definition of “fix” wasn’t the way the people involved actually wanted things to be “fixed”. I was hoping she was getting over that with Tony, guess not.
She did not at all say “that’s who yiu are meant to be with” her mentioning Joe being good for Joyce is to emphasize how much he doesn’t deserve to be cheated on and how wrong she was about him.
No, “for” can only mean “because” at the beginning of a clause, and then it’s archaic. (“For he’s a jolly good fellow”… nobody has talked like that in 150 years or more.)
“Joe is good for you” is the same construction as “I did it for you,” and basically means the same as “Joe is good because of you.” I think the intention is that Sarah is saying “you and Joe are good together,” but the other reading is possible and without being able to hear the tone and the natural emphasis Sarah would be using in this spoken conversation, it’s a little hard to be 100% sure about which she’s saying.
But Sarah’s point is absolutely that Joe doesn’t deserve to be cheated on.
Is that what Sarah is saying? Because saying you shouldn’t be cheating on someone is not the same as saying that they’re the person you’re meant to be with.
I mean, it’s both ways, isn’t it? Sarah is saying Joyce shouldn’t be cheating on Joe not just because A: cheating is wrong and B: Joe has baggage about cheating from his parents and C: Joe has improved because of his love for Joyce after being an actual terrible person, but -also- because Joe is actually a good fit for Joyce. It’s okay to say that, it’s true, Joe has been an excellent boyfriend to Joyce and they worked well together, I said in another comment that they could legitimately be an endgame ship, and even still could be, except that I don’t see Joyce managing the growth required for that within the time frames of Willis’s lifespan, certainly not during the course of her time at college.
I don’t disagree with Sarah and I think it is both in character and realistic to expect, but I do agree with the comment that this whole point of view is coming from a trend in Sarah that she gets to decide what are and are not good relationships for other people based on how she feels about the people involved. What we will see is if Sarah does still support and retain her friendship with Joyce despite this, and I think that will depend a lot on how Joyce reacts and what level of responsibility she takes for this.
While you write the next twenty five paragraphs overanalizing the panel where Sarah says “Joe is good for you” into meaning “Joe is who you should be with”, take a break and go back to overanalizing the previous panel where Sarah says “you’re doing this without having broken off your existing relationships” so you can write the next twenty five paragraphs about how obviously Sarah’s hang up is not that they’re doing it in an unfaithful cheating way, but that they’re doing it at all.
In all ways. I still can’t believe that she hasn’t realized that getting someone kicked out of college for doing drugs and then thinking you made their life better is quite a lot fucked up.
Man, back when I thought Sarah was as self-centered as Raidah but just less of a jerk, I was like “cool, nice to see someone admit that they’re primarily here for number one. But Sarah rationalizing what she did as “helping them out” really made her considerably worse than Raidah.
Dana was putting on a brave face for the rest of Raidah’s friend group, but was falling apart and self-medicating with copious amounts of pot around Sarah. Sarah called Dana’s father because of the pot and because she needed real help working though her grief.
Ah. And was there a reason that Dana wasn’t seeking help from her father?
I’ve seen parents “help” their kids, especially their girl kids, in quite a few ways. I’m sure getting her kicked out of college was for the best though! Nothing bad happened, no one got beaten, thrown out on the street, sent to a Christian reform camp, anything like that.
Hey, maybe Sarah should have told Toedad where Becky was, then he could have helped Becky too. Parents are always great at helping their kids!
Dana wasn’t “kicked out”, her dad withdrew her. It’s an important distinction. The university would welcome her back if/when she’s ready.
Just because some parents are shitty doesn’t mean we should regard any contact with them as evidence of hostility. You need some actual evidence for that.
Sarah’s a misanthropic killjoy whose favorite thing is being negative. She’s also right way more often than she’s wrong.
It’s possible that Dana’s dad was the wrong person to reach out to. The majority of parents we’ve seen in these strips have been somewhere between “flawed” and “godawful”.
Sarah, for her part, seems to have been at her wits’ end. Dana was not only doing a shit job at coping with a very serious tragedy, she was effectively covering it up around everyone b who could have helped her in a less escalatory fashion and also effectively dragging Sarah down with her.
Calling Dana’s dad was the nuclear option but at least in her own telling it’s understandable why she would feel she was out of options
As someone whose roommate dropped a dime on me that resulted in me taking medical leave from college for a semester, sometimes you make that call because otherwise you’re going to end up with a dead roommate because he was ignoring suggestions to get therapy and engaging in self-destructive behavior due to clinical depression.
So yeah, I’ve seen parents “help” their kids after a roommate call, too, and it saved my damn life.
Sarah does not seem to have handled the Dana situation in an ideal manner, but a roommate who is super depressed and self-destructive is also not the sort of problem I would expect her to know an ideal manner to solve.
I feel Sarah handled it the best way she could. She tried to rally the rest of Dana’s friends first to get her professional help, they dismissed her and basically told her she was on her own. Attempts at talking with Dana on her own didn’t help. Seeking out a parent so Dana would be withdrawn without having anything on her record or getting Sarah in trouble by association was the least awful of option of a bad situation. Just leaving it as is was not a realistic option for Sarah.
You’re right. Sarah should have blown up her entire future, burned her scholarship and chance at a career she wanted, and not bothered to get her self-destructive and potentially suicidal roommate any help while she was abusing drugs. Not “using” but “abusing” because she was so constantly high that it was affecting her roommate.
It was a trolley problem, and Sarah is not wrong for choosing herself and her future alongside the chance that Dana could actually get the help she VERY CLEARLY needed.
I get the impression that some people and other characters think Sarah owed Dana secrecy for socializing with her but for the minimal effort that required Sarah already repaid her generosity back more then enough. It was a similar scenario with Jennifer being mad a Carla for getting Ruth help “how dare she not stand by and keep our self destructive secretes? we were nice to her!”
I also think Sarah being Sarah exaggerates her concern for her own grades and future, while minimizing her concern for Dana. Not that both weren’t real, but you’d expect most people to paint themselves as more altruistic, but Sarah needs her misanthropic image.
Dana wasn’t just ‘doing drugs’. She was spiraling hard in a fashion quite likely to lead to self-harm, and was also disrupting Sarah’s life and threatening her academic standing. And even then, Sarah didn’t immediately try to get Dana kicked out, or even try to contact Dana’s father. She FIRST turned to Dana’s ostensible friend circle, and specifically the head of that circle, Raidah–who promptly blew off Sarah’s concerns, because Raidah’s a borderline sociopath. At that point, Sarah didn’t have any other good options available to her, and so she chose the one that seemed the least bad–contact someone who, by all rights, SHOULD have Dana’s best interests at heart, and the means to act on that impulse.
serious question: how much actual time have you spent around drug addicts?
because you have to realize that it’s actually very typical for addicts not to seek help on their own and that that’s the entire reason the concept of the intervention exists. the absence of “safe” people in one’s life isn’t the reason that drug addicts don’t ask for help. they don’t ask for help because drug addiction is a safe and comfortable and familiar place within which one can hide from their feelings and live in denial that they have a problem, and seeking help means you actually have to leave that place, and feel all the bad shit you’ve been trying not to feel, and also stop doing drugs. it isn’t appealing.
friends can also be part of that safe, familiar space, so long as they’re the kind of friends who are cool and fun to hang out with, and don’t ask questions, and don’t express concern, and don’t say things like “you have a problem”, and don’t try to get the drug addict any help. there’s a reason drug addicts tend to like to do things like invite people over and have parties. it’s not atypical for drug addicts to find themselves suddenly having to cut an awful lot of people out of their lives once they decide they don’t want to do drugs anymore.
i know people who’ve destroyed friendships, went through brutal breakups, ended up estranged from family members etc as the result of trying to get someone help for an addiction when they didn’t want that help. yeah that’s all a lot more extreme probably than dana’s thing here but seriously talk to addicts about addiction. they often keep people that they know won’t enable their denial at arm’s length, on purpose. that’s real life, that’s how it works.
ah this is a really good point re: Sarah deciding what is and isn’t good for others, but I think that if we’re judging people by that metric Dorothy is the worst by a huge margin. I honestly think Dorothy is Going Through Some Things (including the aforementioned) that make her unfit for a relationship at the moment, and this is one of the many reasons Joyce should stay with Joe rather than going down in flames with Dorothy
do they? Dorothy is currently in mental breakdown mode. She’s being self destructive on her life and ambitions and has lost most of her direction in life. Her shacking up with Walky again was based mostly off impulsive behavior and her relationship with Joyce could very well be that herself trying to “break the rules” so to say. Dorothy is simply not in a healthy mental state right now and she seems to be acting more like Billie than anything else, and her keeping Joyce in this relationship could serve to blow up in her face even more than she thinks because she would damage her friendship with Sarah, Joe, Walky, Becky, and I think even Danny would be a bit upset that her actions hurt Joe as well.
What Danny knows of it, he already doesn’t like. He rightfully called Dorothy out for being a cheating scumbag. And Danny would probably feel bad because he misjudged Joe there. He didn’t think Joe would be the one cheated on, he would have assumed the opposite.
Danny has actually got more level headed over time yes. But my point really does stand that if this relationship happens Dorothy would basically be burning every bridge she’s made and turn her into what Ruth was at her lowest point.
You’re misquoting in a misleading way. You’re overinterpreting what Sarah is saying, and then you misrepresent your interpretation as her actual words. Don’t do that.
Alright Sarah is still right that Joyce is cheating in a relationship that she was happy with with a guy she cared about.
Like Joyce nearly cried when explaining to Joe she touched herself near Dorothy before she was even dating Joe and now she is full on making out with her.
I’m going to bash my fucking skull in, the amount of people either projecting or willfully misinterpreting Sarah here to find the most queerphobic interpretation of her words is driving me insane. That’s no what she’s saying. You know that’s not what she’s saying. Ffs, she’s just saying “you should not have cheated on your boyfriend”, that’s it! The joe was good for you thing is just to exemplify her reassessment of him. Notice how she emphasized the fact that they’re doing this while still in relationships? Jesus Christ man…
Except that was to hurt someone she actively didn’t like and even then she felt guilty about it by the end of the day, called it off and told Joyce what she was doing.
You all heard her! Sarah admitted for once she was WRONG! It doesn’t get more serious than this!
look if you’re going to break up with your current partner to pursue something else just do it, if you change your mind and decide to call off your affair then alright, hell if you want to try to form some sort of Polycule and just group date then go ahead and take the gamble…But ANYTHING is better than dating multiple people at once and keeping them in the dark about it, that’s universally a disaster in any relationship.
They could go talk to Joe and Walky about this and there would be such little issue to me. It’s been like 8-12 hours maybe. They’ve barely done more than they do naturally as just friends, and Joyce freaking gave Joe a blowjob last night. That matters. Just do it. Just talk to them.
Right? If they told their boyfriends right now, they’d still be within “pretty much told them right away” territory.
Which means that they won’t. They’re clearly fixing to get really unequivocally messy. That’s the show!
We should be paying attention to other plot development. Something is going to come up that will distract them from speaking up. I wonder wha it could be?
Distractions aren’t the only way a wrench can be thrown into things. I can’t discount the popular theory of Chekhov’s Journalist. A front-page spread of a dramatic kiss wouldn’t stop them from speaking up, but it could well accelerate the timeline and make it happen “too late” for it not to be horribly messy.
I mean they could have also spent the night not making out and canoodling, it’s not like they’re going about it in the cleanest way possible. I’m not saying they’re scarlet lettered and destined for hell just. Yeah they’re being messy with it and people in their life are allowed to react to that
Yep. And they’re making it way more tempting for themselves to avoid telling the boyfriends, since they can keep avoiding the no-fun conversation in each other’s arms. Until of course Joe and Walky find out from other sources, in a maximally hurtful manner. The aging, it continues to dumb.
Yet Dorothy is the one who kept trying to slow things down because she cared that it was wrong. Didn’t care enough to not do it, but still more than Joyce
Oh yeah no, in this instance, Dotty at least TRIED to not be a shitheel. Joyce is the one who ran full tilt into it without caring about anyone else’s situation.
I meant more in a general sense. Dotty has been a more consistent jack of all asses.
genuinley interested to know what you think she did before this plotline? Like I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just personally can’t think of what she could have really done.
Mostly screwing over Walky tbh. Trying to get him to cheat on Lucy, forcing him together with Lucy, saying they were casual and then dropping an “I love you” bomb, going on break, ending said break with banging, breaking up after ending said break with banging, throwing a fit because Billie took Joyce to get birth control, making the Halloween party about death by delivering a sudden eulogy, flipping out over someone implying she’s autistic, breaking up with Danny at college instead of like… the March before they graduated so he could pick a different school if he wanted, possibly cheating on Danny (this is 100% joking speculation on my part).
I actually really like Dorothy, she’s crappy in a lot of ways but it’s a very relatable crappy. But I can definitely see where someone would think she’s crossed a lot of lines repeatedly.
The stuff with walky and danny are good calls yeah. Even though it’s not the focus right now, i’m really excited to see how things go with walky, because he’s been treated really poorly across the entire comic, and he usually responds to it by pretending he doesn’t care.
Yeah dotty is like. REALLY bad at relationships. Her feelings and her “rational” (not really, just self punishing) brain at war and it leads to things like yoyo’ing Walky. Maaad curious to see where it’ll go with joyce
If her rebound with Walky is a hint it could go poorly. Dorothy was briefly happy when she got Walky back before the 2nd honeymoon feels wore off then she was back to dealing with her trauma on her own again. Could be a similar situation with Joyce were she pulls away and keeps things to herself one the inital excitement of having Joyce all too herself wears off.
I am. This has been the funniest response yet! I was gonna go a full ten day but maybe I’ll drop it if people are getting mad and taking this seriously. I will however continue to distrust Asher specifically at any and likely every time he appears. Gotta stay on brand.
Don’t stop! I would argue that you are performing an important public service. As a Disney movie once said, “People are 60% water. If you don’t stir them up now and then they stagnate.”
Maybe this is so obvious that it goes without saying, but some of us only come to the comment section infrequently. On any given day there are usually at least a few really awful takes in here and I don’t believe there’s a curated list of who’s doing bits and who actually sucks.
I know Sarah and Tony are gonna break up for some reason and then she’s gonna get with Joe. I don’t know why I feel so confident about this, I just think their arcs coincide nicely with each other.
I think they’re gonna hook up, but I don’t think it’ll be permanent. I think it’ll be part of Joe’s backsliding and it’s gonna play into Rachel’s heel face turn somehow (that she was using him or otherwise trying to prove something and instead ends up just becoming a bad memory or even taking advantage of a spiraling dude. Something that puts the shoe on her foot.)
Mind you, I don’t think Joe will backslide backslide, I think he’s gonna make a couple ill thought out decisions before realizing that he can’t go back to how he was before, he knows too much now and the only way through the forest is through.
never underestimate the number of meatsacks that want to watch 2+ humans perform a choreographed dance and acrobatics show, or the type of people who do so. it wouldnt surprise to find out 45-55% of readers here ahve at least spent some time enjoying wrestling past the age of majority. (my childhood best friend was obsessed so i got exposed, fuck the 1st time i saw the undertaker snap to sitting up while paul bearer raises the magic urn is burned into my memories, but i no longer get any enjoyment from watching/following but like the cancer of the ears that is country/western/bro country that exhists for some fucking reason there w=are way more fans than expected)
I believe the TV Tropes usage is based on the notion that the first word states their current status, and the second describes the direction they are turning. So “Heel Face Turn” is going from a villain to a hero, while “Face Heel Turn” is the reverse.
This would differentiate from a situation where a character who has been fairly ‘mid’ up to a certain point is then given an arc that shows them in a Heel or Face role.
I would honestly be very surprised if that’s where this went.
I mean, I kind of want to see it. Rachel’s been a dangling thread for a long time, but also there is so much distance to go from where she is to her dating Joe.
Joe and Rachel? I sure hope not. Joe thinks she’s hot, sure, but she’s an absolute garbage fire of a person. I don’t think we’ve seen a single redeeming feature so far.
Pretty sure what’s wrong with him is the same as what’s wrong with Carla right now, which is his family involvement in whatever the hell the protest was about…
Every so often I remember that Joe and Sarah were… actually kinda-sorta a thing back in the Walkyverse??? Like, they weren’t dating per se, and weren’t exclusive, but it was definitely a recurring thing between the two of them. And then I remember that Walkyverse Sarah actually wasn’t really a misanthrope at all, and that she pretty much only hated Joyce specifically…
Wow, I actually figured Sarah would have a more “I expected better from you, Joyce, this isn’t the person I know you are.” reason, so she must have REALLY changed her mind about Joe.
Which, is fair, she’s seen how much he’s changed and she herself also changed enough to go to him for help.
I love Sarah for this. Sometimes, you really need to be set straight when you mess up, and Sarah is doing that perfectly because Joyce is her little sister and she messed up BAD.
A couple people on Patreon are already calling her holier than thou and injecting queerphobia into her statements 💀 as a sicko, the sicko crowd is starting to get mad annoying dawg ngl
See, I thought the OG “sicko” criteria was “neutral-to-positive about cheating” — some because more mess, sure, but some because sapphic love is always justified, some because D&J were their OTP, and so on.
My D&D Alignment Chart needs more quadrants (used in the loose sense of not necessarily dividing something into fourths).
True Sicko / True Relationship Paladin = you’d feel exactly what you’re feeling right now even if this were two completely different ships, though maybe a bit stronger for ships you like / dislike.
But what are the other quadrants?
Soft Sicko = wanting mess, but no long-lasting pain? Like if you’re into a bit of light impact play but serious pain is scary.
Soft Paladin = maybe you picked the “they could still redeem themselves” option on the cheating poll. You want them to stop cheating ASAP and to come clean to their boyfriends, but once it’s all above board, you’re at least indifferent to them staying together.
(I am reserving “The Sicko-Paladin Axis” for my next band name if Rock Band/Guitar Hero ever get popular again. “The Friendly Fire Incident” is getting a bit long in the tooth).
Maybe 🤔 OR MAYBE I’m overlooking something major. “Sicko” is sorta like Chaotic and Paladin is pretty Lawful, so maybe I should be working it from that direction, with Neutral in the middle, and we could have Sicko Good/Neutral/Evil, Paladin Good/Neutral/Evil?
I’m not totally sure what the Evil Paladin position would be tho. Obviously Sicko Evil is the maximum gremlin version from Willis’s joke Patreon comic where Joyce found Danny instead of Joe when she got the weighted blanket but still put her mouth on his weenus.
Oh this is making me like her way more. This is just the natural consequence of how much she was pushing herself and constantly purity testing herself. This selfish crashout was inevitable and it’s so. Damn. Interesting
Maybe in her head she’s gone back and looked at her own actions through new eyes and realizing she was into Dorothy all along, but she never once showed any indication of consciously thinking about kissing/dating her until the night of her date with Joe. She’s trying to retcon their history so that this is a huge triumph of queer love to gloss over the cheating and betrayal
Weirdly enough I think it was the reverse. Dorothy did not realize she wasn’t straight until like… three in universe days ago or smth. Joyce didn’t realize it, but she at least said very not straight things all the time. I don’t think Dorothy ever really participated actively in the “this maybe isn’t normal friendship stuff” until either the BC arc or the laundry arc, whichever happened first.
That’s kind of my point though, she’s always said very gay things but was so oblivious, I don’t think the idea of actually kissing a girl ever crossed her mind as a possibility. So it’s incredibly disingenuous of her to say “after wanting to for so long!”
That is true and that’s what I’m saying. If she only consciously realized she wanted the thing two days ago, she hasn’t been retroactively waiting six months, she’s still only been waiting two days
We’re arguing semantics but my point is that I think she’s being really disingenuous about this when three days ago all she wanted was to get dicked down by Joe
She can want two things at the same time i assure you. More that two even. I won’t said we are arguing semantic? You Said she only wanted to kiss Dorothy for two days, i said she wanted to for much longer in response. I don’t see how tgat is about semantic
I feel like you’re missing my point on purpose. She never THOUGHT about kissing Dorothy. She never stayed up losing sleep thinking about Dorothy and pining over her unrequited feelings. She had no idea she wanted to kiss Dorothy until two days ago. So it’s bullshit to paint this as something she’s been yearning for for ages, and she’s doing it on purpose to make it a positive thing instead of cheating.
I don’t think the intended read of this strip is that Joyce is being “disingenuous”. I think the intended read is that that part of her sentence and defense is honest to how she’s been feeling.
Wanting and thinking about are two different things. They may be related but neither absolutely requires the other. I never thought about my mother living into her 90s, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t want her to.
Joyce had claimed multiple times that she wasn’t attracted to girls. She eas in really deep denial by this point and didn’t know bisexuality existed until at least the time she saw Ruth getting into a new relationship after Jennifer.
Your timeline on Joyce’s feelings, both stated out loud and otherwise, is off by a lot. You may want to reread the comic.
She’s claimed one time not to be attracted to girls, because surely if she could be attracted to any girl it would be Becky, but Mike undercut that by asserting that Joyce would actually be gay for Sal, and Joyce said, “oh if ONLY.”
Willis meant that to be dispositive, but it was in fact one of the most bisexual things Joyce had ever said, and many people in the audience went, “oh yeah that was me, lol, I think you are in fact bi, Joyce.”
Willis’s writing for Joyce did that a lot, and eventually they realized it meant something.
Anyway just wanted to clarify that I wasn’t denying Joyce is bi, just that she webt from deep into denial and so she wasn’t actively desiring to kiss Dorothy.
Li that’s fair. To me, that’s how I interpreted the comic. But it’s certainly possible that Joyce truly believes what she is saying. I’m not trying to argue with Willis over his writing, just debating the interpretation.
Having now slept on it, I also think we might both be somewhat right?
By which I mean: I think Joyce means what she’s saying, but I also think she’s also romanticizing everything that’s happened. I think “we finally kissed” is how it feels in her head and that she’s recontextualizing and rationalizing after the fact — because we all do that, because memory is imperfect.
If someone asks you why you did something and the true answer is “I don’t know,” when you remember back to the action, your brain might well invent a reason.
We don’t recall memories perfectly, the part of the brain responsible for imagining and inventing is always also active.
This is an interesting point. Given Dorothy’s personality, it’s reasonable to think that she has engaged with the idea that there were all sorts of sexual orientations and identities other than the so-called “default” which she could’ve been, and made an affirmative [though incorrect, it turns out] determination that her identity was “cishet and straight”. Given Joyce’s upbringing, it’s probable that her “identity” was “it never crossed my mind that there could be any question as to my identity”.
That is how I understand it. That it’s an abbreviation for “cisgender and heterosexual,” probably because calling it something like “normal” comes with all kinds of unpleasant implicatory baggage (ie. heteronormativity.)
I’m glad Sarah is saying what many of us have been saying for a while. While I don’t like that Joyce and Dorothy avoided telling Joe and Walky earlier, perhaps it’s for the best that they told Sarah first. They needed to hear what she’s saying.
I don’t like it, but it’s absolutely “dumbass teenager” behavior to procrastinate and delay breaking someone’s heart because you don’t want to hurt them.
Like, its shitty, but I fully get why they’re doing it. “Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt”.
I’ve never done it, but I’ve experienced it from people all the way up into their 5th decade, so sadly it’s not even exclusively a “dumbass teenager” thing. Plus most people are better at lying than these two, especially older adults, so things usually drag out for months.
Cheating next to where your roommate is trying to sleep with someone who cares about you and your partner as people is… truly some kind of choice lmao.
And in just a few panels, we see just how much Sarah and Joe have evolved as characters. You love to see it. Damn you, Willis, I only got onto this comic in 2024 but I can tell I’ll probably be a fan for a long, long time.
Ooooooh, I love Sarah in the second and 3rd panel. Joyce, trying to list out her and Dorothy’s cheating behavior as some storybook culmination [which for them it is, but there’s more to it] and tacking on a”that’s really it” as if it’s not that serious, and Sarah having absolutely none of it. Good reality check. Straight forward, to the point, accurate. Unpleasant for Joyce and Dorothy to hear, obviously, but spot on.
Less pleased about the last 2 panels, actually? Well, I am pleased, it’s good emotion and interesting for Sarah. But for all that I like Joyce/Joe, and Joe, and wish Dorothy/Joyce hadn’t happened in this exact way, I don’t want Joyce to feel pressured to go back to Joe just…because he doesn’t deserve to be cheated on and is “good for her.” That’s not a good reason.
This is obviously not the end of the conversation with Sarah, I’m not saying Sarah is actually telling Joyce to do that. And Sarah has a big point in the last panel. I just hope Sarah, with her type of good intentions, doesn’t try to get Joyce to “fix” this in a way that actually does more damage in the long run.
Man if I were Sarah I’d be so pissed at her saying “why do you care? You don’t like him.” My reaction is “even if I still didn’t like Joe, I thought you are a better person than this. The Joyce I know wouldn’t cheat on her boyfriend, and whether I like him is irrelevant”
Also, “I care because you’re being painfully obvious about it in our room, and I have to interact at least in passing with both of you and your boyfriends,” would be a perfectly acceptable retort. I know Joyce is frantically rationalizing because Sarah brought reality crashing into her “let’s just tell them tomorrow and have a sleepover” bubble, but it’s still a transparently unfair thing to say.
Honestly, weather or not Joyce is with Joe or not, Sarah is objectively correct about that statement. When Joyce was with Joe, Joe was open, he was patient, he was completely transparent about his hang ups, his limits and his desires. He was showing Joyce that even her sexual desires don’t have to be something to be ashamed of, you can be honest and open about them, and it is indeed a healthy thing!
Meanwhile, the Dorothy and Joyce romantic relationship has been about dramatic, self-destructive decisions (protest), infidelity, directly lying, keeping secrets, cheating on BOTH partners, one after the other.
Joyce and Dorothy, as they are now, are toxic as hell. If this is to ever be a healthy relationship, they need somebody like Sarah to tear down all of the bullshit they’ve told themselves.
Oh, Sarah is absolutely right. But that’s still not a good reason for Joyce to go back to Joe after all that’s happened, for anyone. Joyce shouldn’t be pressured back into a relationship she doesn’t actually want, or wants less than a relationship with Dorothy. Joe doesn’t deserve to have Joyce both cheat and then settle for him because she feels obligated to. And whatever happens with Dorothy and Walky, Joyce going back to Joe won’t fix any of it.
Like I said, I don’t think that will be the conclusion of this conversation or plot. It was merely a gut reaction of, “Sarah, even though you are right, you can’t keep Joe from being betrayed at this point. No matter how good Joe might be for Joyce, that’s water under the bridge now.” And as much as I love Sarah, and I do, part of her backstory is that her well-intentioned “meddling” in her roommate’s lives has backfired on her. In this case, maybe that “only” means a serious fracture in her relationship with Joyce. And, obviously this is an extra chance for Sarah to show character growth and decide that no matter how much she wants it, her “meddling” can’t fix this situation and will only implode her social circle again, so it can’t be her responsibility.
It was a gut reaction from the start of the strip, which I loved for Sarah, to a worry at the end that for all Sarah’s sincereity and accuracy, pushing this with Joyce could go very, very badly for a lot of people.
Sarah’s not telling Joyce to go back to Joe, she pointing out why she’s not happy about Joyce blowing up that relationship. She’s angry at them both for cheating and trying to down play it. She’s telling Joyce to be honest with Joe and not string him along.
Oof. Joyce trying to deflect shows that she really hasn’t accepted full responsibility yet for the whole cheating thing. I’m sure she’ll get there. But in the meantime, oof.
She has always operated under the premise that anything done in the service of True Love is acceptable, and hopefully this will be thing that finally, finally, finally disabuses her of that notion.
Yup. There was a lot of theorizing that Joyce’s rationale for all of this was going to be some hyped up romantic story nonsense, and it’s kinda nice to see her immediately jump to that when we finally see inside her head a bit.
although by the tier list guidelines joyce established in that one bonus strip, that would only rank her in the middle of the pack, so i suppose she should really be B- or D-tier in this case
Y’know, I was kinda turning neutral on this whole Joyce/Dorothy thing, ’cause like. Yeah, they ARE dumb horny college students who are about to learn a painful life lesson, like this kinda shit just happens. Is it wrong? Yeah. Are they perfectly moral beings who should never do no wrong? … No, & I’m pretty sure that’s been part of Joyce’s ENTIRE COMIC ARC.
But like. Reading those last two panels from Sarah… I dunno, I felt something. Maybe because it reminds me of the stupid mistakes I made back in High School about ~13 Years ago. ‘Cause even if you can look back on it & see how stupid it was, it doesn’t erase the damage that stupid mistake can cause.
Its why this whole Joyrothy thing (Still don’t know the ship name) has been sitting uneasy with me. Makes me think of my stupid mistakes. I’ve mostly grown past it, but its hard to forget the stupid stuff you did when you were young.
Thought of this on a second appreciation re-read: so…do we think the “mouth on the weenus” thing is going to be mentioned? And how is Sarah going to handle THAT if it is? Joyce has already made some messy decisions, but that one was a particularly powerful one.
In terms of just the act itself, I don’t think Sarah would be upset. She seemed pleased that Joyce had found the courage to ..um.. be hands on with her feeling towards Joe, and had previously been of the opinion that Joyce cutting herself off from her sexuality had been harmful to her psyche. Therefore, I don’t think Sarah would be upset that she connected with Joe in that fashion.
In terms of the context of the act … difficult to say? She obviously regards Joyce planning to break up with Joe and cheating on him with Dorothy as very bad, but it is unclear to me if she would regard being physical with Joe during that period as dishonest (and thus compounding the problem) or not.
I dunno, I feel as if, for lack of a better way to phrase this, Joyce doing that with Joe “increases the overlap and deception”? As in, Joyce didn’t kiss Dorothy, then either avoid Joe until breaking up with him or break up with him immediately. Still sucks, but at least there’s less stringing Joe along before the final break up as the cheating happens. Now, Joyce not only cheated, but also continued her relationship with Joe while keeping him in the dark, before going on to cheat on him some more. Given Sarah’s current opinion, I feel as if learning about that would add a despairing facepalm or something, at least.
And yeah, I do like that Joyce and Dorothy are exploring themselves, but Sarah’s not wrong. The two know they are going about this wrong, and I do love that she’s not just rolling over for Joyce’s rationalizations, or Dorothy’s half-hearted explanations.
They are young adults making discoveries and mistakes and messes, and that’s not damnable, but that’s sort of long-term talk. In the moment, Sarah’s right to call out that the two are doing as it’s happening.
What Dorothy did is obviously horrible, and it’s very sad, but I don’t hate her. It would be too soon, and we’ll have to see what the consequences will be like and how willing she and Joyce are to genuinely make amends.
Until then, I’ll just remain neutral toward the character, but there’s no hate.
I think Dorothy inparicularchecquae she’s been the most destructive one so far. Her protest stand (cry for Joyce’s attention) almost got the two in real trouble and with her trying to get Ealky to dump Lucy for her from before there seems to be an underlying belief that being in a relationship will fix her trauma so she doesn’t have tovbe honest in therapy.
I dunno if she’s ever said the words “I” “was” and “wrong” before, in that particular order.
Always knew that Sarah would be one of the more Relationship Paladiny people out there. Mostly cause she’s all about judging others. But is 100% right here.
Alright, I’m just going to throw this here entirely based on vibes, because I’m far from the best person to get an unbiased take on this.
I know y’all are all here for the interpersonal drama and the cheating and faithfulness and character development and that’s well and good and honestly correct.
But I’m going to say, the idea of berating someone for being hush hush about a queer relationship, particularly on a college campus (with the added bonus of a fascist crackdown right outside) is uh.
But again, maybe I’m just speaking from personal experience here. Continue with the mess, I guess.
Also, how fast are you supposed to resolve relationship conflicts if you just resolved to loving someone else *yesterday* and also just got home from being tear gassed last night? Instantly? Do you really keep yourself away from the person who’d best help you process all that in comfort for the night? I really don’t know if I’d have the spoons for anything after that.
Wow. What a rational and level headed expectation to have for these two. It would be very within reason to not judge them too harshly for actions that just happened less than a day ago after a very high stress event, But personally I’d rather continue pearl clutching about what terrible people Joyce and Dorothy have become! That’s way more fun!
People aren’t disagreeing with S. Harriet’s comment because they are pearl-clutching about Joyce and Dorothy though? The disagreement is primarily centered around the insinuation that it is objectionable that Sarah expressing her disapproval at Joyce and Dorothy cheating (and is basing that objection off of a framing of Sarah’s behavior that is inaccurate to the context of the narrative).
I was responding to the second comment in added response to the first. That being this all happened very recently and pushing for Dorothy and Joyce to be immaculate icons of romantic responsibility and immediately break up or inform their boyfriends of their just discovered feelings for each other mere minutes after it happened and also after they escaped nearly being arrested is maybe expecting too much?
Sarah’s criticism is valid and so is the responses upset at the cheating. It’s also not really about criticizing queer relationships. That’s just not what I was talking about.
Well you stated that “it would be very within reason to not judge them”, so I thought that meant you were agreeing with the insinuation that Sarah’s current attitude and reaction is something to object to.
No, just us omniscient readers. Like I think we can actually give them the opportunity to address what happened. Maybe you can judge Joyce for blowing off Joe, but Dorothy hasn’t even seen Walky yet. I think the grace period is a little longer than one night. Sarah is on point. Top quality Sarahing from her.
I’m not seeing ‘people…insinuati[ng] that it is objectionable that Sarah expressing her disapproval’. I’m seeing people say things along the lines of ‘Sarah is right but/and…’.
Personally I question all this right/wrong stuff. Seems a bit religious fundie to me!
I would personally say you should resolve it before the blowjob but that’s on Joyce’s end. For Dorothy it’s more permissible I guess but she has still very much had ample time to break things up with Walky, and didn’t.
Also in regards to them getting tear gassed, that literally would not have happened* if Dorothy didn’t have her little breakdown and they stopped to make out in the middle of the gas (Amazi-Girl even pointed it out!)
*I mean, the cops still would have thrown the gas would have happened, but Joyce and Jocelyne were leaving and were still only in the area because of Dorothy.
That’s clearly not what happened though. Dotty and Joyce weren’t distressed. They weren’t exhausted. They didn’t collapse in a bed together and fall asleep. Joyce went to see Joe to break up then gave him a BJ instead and then went back to Dotty.
Like you’re completely reframing what actually happened.
On the point of concealing a queer relationship, again Dorothy and Joyce also give no figs about that. I can see your points in a general broader sense but that’s just not what we’re being given on the page (so no wonder readers aren’t talking about it).
that’s… not remotely the point. The point is not “you should be open about your queer relationship” the point is you should not be actively cheating on your partner.
I didn’t say it was the point. I said it was a thing that was happening, and the interpersonal drama is taking the lack of social context for granted. I know Sarah is thinking seriously about Joe’s feelings here, but for the audience the context is inescapable. And again, I’m far from unbiased on this, and going entirely on vibes and personal experience. Really this is just dramatic mess, and I got a different emotional response from it based entirely on context within and without the narrative. That’s all.
But what you’ve claimed is happening, that Sarah is specifically berating Joyce and Dorothy for being hush hush about having a queer relationship, isn’t what is happening in the narrative? Sarah is berating them for being hush hush about cheating, which again is the undeniable reason Joyce and Dorothy are being hush hush about it.
the reality of the narrative is that that is also a thing that is happening. Even when Sarah’s specific complaint isn’t about them being queer, its also true that she is doing that to a queer relationship. It is interesting context that I hadn’t considered the story through a lens of, and it’s worth pointing out.
But the reality isn’t that though? Getting berated for being hush-hush about cheating while the cheating relationship is a queer one, does not automatically make the berating about keeping a queer relationship quiet, that’s a dishonest framing of the context of Sarah’s reaction.
Keep saying this is quite dismissive of S. Harriet’s point. Which is a valid one to be expressed. And lets face it, If I had a US$ for every time someone has said it’s the cheating that’s bad, I’d certainly have a decent amount of money to spend! Yes, we know that lots of people think they shouldn’t be ‘c-word’.
S. Harriet’s point was new. If I has a US$ for it, I’d have a US$…
I think you’re entirely projecting your own personal experience here, and I’m sorry you went through that but Joyce and Dorothy are on a campus with many openly gay couples and queer people, some of their best friends are gay, and they don’t deserve to be coddled and not called out for cheating on their boyfriend just because it’s gay cheating.
People projecting their own personal experiences onto stories and art? Experiencing the art through the lens of their own life?
Wild. Unheard of. It’ll never catch on.
I’ll point out that you (and me, and everyone else in the comments) is also projecting their own personal experiences on the story as they interpret it. That’s why so many people disagree with each other so strongly.
Technically Dorothy and Joyce COULD just break up with their boyfriends and not give a reason. They don’t HAVE to say “I’m breaking up with you cuz I’m dating a woman now.”
And that pretty much obliterates S. Harriet’s objection here, IMHO — these two are NOT closeted, and there’s almost no likelihood they will be. They do not appear interested in hiding their RELATIONSHIP, only their cheating on their respective boyfriends.
If they showed even the slightest hint of intending to be closeted, the whole debate might be more fraught.
There’s a (misguided) reason why the comment section keeps lighting Dorothy on fire for being biphobic and ableist, and it’s because, despite obviously herself being both bi and autistic, she keeps saying stuff that indicates she is not ready to be publicly read as either.
She wanted to tell Joe and Walky. Spending a very positive, affirming, comforting night with Joyce left her feeling strong enough to tell Sarah. But maybe there’s more than one reason why Becky was so far down Dorothy’s list of people to tell.
I agree they could do that! Dorothy didn’t have real reservations about telling the boys — despite today’s alt text joke, telling the boys was #1 and #2 on her list.
It’s telling Becky that was dead last, with no indication that “telling the rest of our friends” was anywhere in-between.
Also I should clarify, I’m not on the “mad at Sarah for saying any of this” train, I was purely noting that I’m not sure I would agree that Dorothy specifically isn’t closeted at all.
I can see that, but I’m also kinda judging their “collective” closetedness at the moment — and while Dorothy is all kinds of over the place as you say, I’m pretty sure that JOYCE is absolutely ready to tell everyone.
I think it’s fully possible that right now, Dorothy is just ready to tell Walky (and still workshopping the exact wording), whereas if she could, Joyce would love to tell everyone in the dorm except for Joe.
Neither of them are looking forward to hurting the boys, but I think Dorothy might be much more emotionally ready for that part, versus Joyce.
I understand the concerns about openness about a queer relationship, but since neither Dorothy nor Joyce have brought up “what if People X find out we’re queer”, then I think its fair to set that aside for the moment.
Not that you aren’t bringing up a valid concern, just that neither Joyce nor Dorothy are considering people finding out they’re queer as a reason not to tell anyone, so it clearly isn’t currently a concern right now.
(okay, there’s Becky, but that’s for somewhat different reasons that don’t really apply to that situation)
I’m definitely going to give Joyce and Dorothy some “Minorly Shitty Person Allowance Points” given all the events of the previous days. It’s been a lot. But they’ve both openly stated that they know they need to break things off with their current partners, and aren’t, and still went to snuggle in a quite non-platonic manner… it indicates that they know there’s a thing they should be doing instead here.
Because its not just about them. Joe (oh, and also Walky I guess) doesn’t deserve to be led on and cheated on and hurt. I’m sure there’d be understanding if they dropped everything to break it to their respective dudes, but the point is that this is a relationship status update that they are kinda entitled to.
I think overall it’s true that they should at least break it off with their current partners, and joyce has activley avoided doing this. That said, Sarah doesn’t know this and joyce’s explanation is pretty reasonable.
The “Joe is good for you” as a responce to joyce basically coming out to her older sister is in particular, pretty cruel feeling.
All that said, it’s pretty clear that Sarah is speaking from an emotional place herself, so it makes total sense that she wouldn’t react perfectly (shes also just kinda famously bad at this type of thing)
I think the “Joe is good for you” line is less about being a response to Joyce “coming out” to Sarah, and more Sarah explaining the reversal in attitude she has had about Joe (since Joyce is trying to deflect her wrong-doing by pointing out how Sarah used to be opposed to/concerned about Joe and Joyce dating).
yes, obviously. Still, the intention of what she said isn’t the only thing that matters in the scene. It’s obvious to any reader what that means, especially having seen the scene where she warms up to him. but from the context of a character in it, it’s very possible to have it read differently.
Of course, I think the FAR more likely outcome is that that aspect of it is brushed off by the characters, but it’s still interesting to analyse it like that.
This hypothetical character who might possibly have read it differently doesn’t likely exist though? Joyce is the one who demanded that Sarah explain her attitude change about Joe, so I think she can understand the context of Sarah’s response.
But why break it up? Can they not say, hey, this happened, where to from here? Surely the c-word is about lying and deceit, not about the m-word, or people would be going on about monogamy instead? Why is monogamy assumed, therefore =/=mongamy=cheating? Isn’t this a personal opinion thing? One person’s personal opinion does not have to be imposed on others?
People were going on about monogamy for a bit, it’s been litigated into the ground. Joyce has stated her relationship with Joe is monogamous in as many words. I agree with you about the option of remedy but this is for sure cheating. There’s no world where this isn’t a breach of relationship contract, but it could be a resolvable one.
Because everyone involved (Dorothy, Joyce, Joe, and Walky) have clearly shown that the relationships are monogamous. Dorothy and Joyce clearly realize they are cheating and should end their current monogamous relationships with the guys so they can officially become a monogamous couple themselves.
this dormitory is okay with Becky and Dina having loud sex on a stuffed plush and the polycule that Sierra openly is part of, this environment is not dangerous to be queer in.
I mean the dormitory has Mary in it. Carla’s experience is a prime example of how if a space is 99% welcoming of someone, but has a single activley hostile person, it can become genuinley awful.
In the case of carla she activley dehumanised and targeted her for bullying. Carla’s tough enough that she can mostly brush it off, but pretending that those things are not harmful feels disingenuous.
Like, i’m not counting on it happening specifically, but I could easily see a plotline being written about Mary deciding Joyce is an easy target and honing in on her “moral failings” to bully her.
Come to think of it, with how many queers as there are in their wing, I sorta wonder how easy it would be for them to collectively pressure the relevant administration into relocating Mary on account of her open bigotry and consistently hostile behavior.
I just mean to say, sometimes I get a different emotional response to a work of fictional media than the author ever intended.
It doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate or understand the literal events taking place in the world of the story, or the emotional meaning intended in conveying that story, or the fact that the audience will successfully grasp and experience that intentional effect even if I don’t.
So yeah, Dorothy and Joyce have been cheating on their boyfriends for less than a day, and Sarah has gained a respect and fondness for Joe and strongly disapproves of Joyce not giving his feelings due respect for that. I know. I didn’t miss that. I had an emotional response that hit differently than intended, strongly enough that it overrules all other considerations. That’s all.
That’s absolutely fair — it’s also entirely reasonable to worry about a queer couple in the abstract not being made to come out until they are ready to do so, to be clear.
There’s no Trump in this comic. We don’t know if homophobes are in power; we’re not given enough context to tell how fascist the crackdown is. And as other people have said, the campus by itself (absent precisely that unknown context) is not a problem.
If this was an actual concern the characters had about the situation, it would have been mentioned in the text by now I feel. Clearly, the issue here is the cheating, not the queerness.
Oh, I disagree completely, I think Dorothy’s already said quite a few things that indicate she’s not ready to be publicly known as bi. I think a night of being curled up with Joyce and not having nightmares for the first time in a while made her feel strong and proud and ready to tell Sarah (at least parts of what’s going on), but I think it’s too soon to say Dorothy doesn’t have any reservations about being publicly out.
I mean yes, absolutely that’s the context they were said in, but I suspect there’s overlap here with her bristling in response to being asked if she’s also autistic.
I could be totally wrong, I’m definitely not sure enough of this take to be positive we’re about to see more internalized biphobia from Dorothy, but I just wouldn’t be surprised if she’s not actually ready to be publicly known as Not Normal in this way.
It might genuinely be a lot easier with Joyce standing beside her though. Goodness knows I’ve always found it easier to come out to people when I have a girlfriend.
It’s so much easier to just slip a mention of your partner into a conversation than it is to get it across in any other way. ._.
I absolutely agree that Dorothy is very ready to be supportive of OTHER people’s non-normative situations but she has spent so long being afraid of anything that the general public could find objectionable about her that she’s actually internalized quite a bit of bullshit where she herself is concerned. She’s normal. She’s presentable. She’s morally perfect. She’s put so much work into being all of those things. What do you mean she might actually not be any of those things? What do you mean some of them might never have been on the table for her no matter how hard she worked? Of course these things aren’t bad in general but for her? They would be actual points of failure.
I’m gonna be real it’s sort of annoying y’all saw someone explicitly say “I know I’m probably biased but here’s my personal feelings / a different reading on this” and immediately jumped in with “uhmm here’s why you’re wrong.” Like it’s fair to disagree obviously but S. Harriet literally already acknowledged that that reading is not a common one and some (not all) of the replies feel more like they want to correct that reading instead of like, engaging with it regularly? It’s not a great vibe!
Engage with it regularly how? People have every right to say that someone’s openly biased and altered reading on the situation has several serious flaws.
Ouch. And even disagreement can be kind. I hear what you are sating but I don’t see it like that because….
Apparently I am also “wrong” because others disagree!
idk, scroll up? there’s some interesting comments that say a bit more than “this isn’t how it’s written in the comic”.
Secondly… This might just be a difference in interacting with media, but a reading being biased doesn’t like, make it bad or incorrect. It makes it a biased reading (something which, again, the original comment is aware of). It brings up a different perspective other people might not have, because they’re not biased in the same way, or maybe they’re just not interested in readings other than the “intended” one. This is, to me a good thing. Sometimes people get pretty adamant that their read is the “correct” one, which can get annoying, but that’s not really the case here.
Also people “have every right” to do literally whatever, and I’m not sure why you brought it up? I’m just gonna call them annoying about it & say it’s not particularly welcoming.
Funny, because this is clearly a bad and incorrect reading. Just because everyone can have an opinion doesn’t mean they are all valid. Having awful takes and expecting people to take it seriously isn’t a positive. And letting people have awful takes under the guise of being welcoming isn’t helpful.
I think that this is a situation where we can safely assume that individual circumstances are more important than the societal paradigms. No one in their social circle is going to give a darn that these two are queer. There’s an open lesbian polycule on the floor already. Joyce and Dorothy are not in any danger if they tell their boyfriends they made out.
With different people, this is a fair argument but it’s really not applicable here.
So first off: while the dorm itself might be fine generally, that doesn’t mean there’s no reason for them to fear coming out of the closet. There is a whole world outside that dorm, and they haven’t even slightly reckoned with how being visibly and outwardly queer is going to affect their interactions with that world. There are plenty of reasons to be cautious about coming out less than 24hrs after noticing the closet. Even in an accepting environment, it can be terrifying.
Secondly, I’m betting that basically everyone in their social circle will “give a darn” that they’re queer. I don’t think all the reactions will be negative, but some people (like Becky as everyone kept banging on about a few days ago) have the potential to have a negative reaction at least initially.
I’ve seen plenty of people come out IRL to the tune of “OMG how have you only JUST figured this out and here are all the reasons the closet was made of glass” and that can sound like acceptance (because it’s halfway there) but accepting someone’s current identity while mocking the journey they took to get there, can be stressful for a baby gay to go through.
And I think there’s going to be a decent amount of that in their future.
Thirdly, anyone (in-comic) who DOES have an issue with them being queer can just phrase it as an aversion to cheating and get patted on the back for doing so instead of rightfully questioned about why they give a fuck about someone else’s relationships.
Finally, while I don’t think Sarah is saying this in a homophobic way, it remains true that the first person Joyce told about her newly uncovered feelings immediately told her to get her hands off Dorothy (and vice versa).
I mean I think I’d be remiss not to bring up that Joyce is still very much… not an independent adult? Her dad’s *improving* but “accepting the gay friend” and “accepting the gay (or queer or bi or whatever) daughter” are, from experience, two very different things
sarah is, on one hand, very much in the right here
on the other hand, the “doing something wrong” is probably going to intersect with Joyce’s upbringing in some…. unfortunate ways, is my guess. like she’s still deprogramming, she’s not that far out of it, and having a non-fundie friend phrase it that way (even if, again, she’s In The Right from a non-queer sense) is just a tad unfortunate
Is anyone else picturing Gandalf coming over the hill with the Riders of Rohan? The Relationship Paladins preparing to ride down the Goblins in righteous and long-overdue fury?
This is really why the paladins/sickos model doesn’t work — there are at least some sickos who want this to end with no consequences and possibly a poly quartet, and at least some paladins who will never stop being angry because cheating happened at all.
Meanwhile, the “sickos, due to wanting drama” and “paladins, who want the world of actions and consequences to make dramatic sense” are holding hands and skipping off into the sunset, well-fed.
Hey, as a “sicko” who contains multitudes, here’s a nonexhaustive list of things that would have made me happy at various points:
— Dorothy realizes she’s bi and goes on a quiet personal discovery. In this version of events, Willis makes good on long-running tension and humor without giving me any form of my ship. I’d be a bit sad as a shipper, but otherwise pretty satisfied. I was open to “Dorothy fulfills her occasional narrative role as Lois Lane and hooks up with Amazi-Girl” too. I disliked calls for her to hook up with Jocelyne or Daisy, which both seemed to me to be really trivializing her feelings for Joyce: “surely any blond will do”.
— Dorothy and Joyce realize they have feelings for each other and both break up with the boys they’re dating to start an above-board relationship together.
— Similar to the last one, but they instead propose poly.
— Similar to the last one, but they kissed once first or something.
— Hm, maybe Joyce knows something I don’t, and actually this is going to be fine with Joe? And oh right, Walky’s talked about poly before, actually, maybe he’ll be fine with it too.
— Nope, this is definitely going to be some sneaking around first, I hope there are appropriate consequences.
AND ALL THROUGHOUT, all throughout, I was struck by twin feelings of “oh NO” and “ooooo”, where I didn’t know what the consequences would be for the kiss finally happening, but I was excited to find out.
I’m sure many people had their own equally complex journeys haha.
But I think folks upset with Sarah for what she’s saying here must be reading her tone very differently from me.
Similarly as a Paladin, a non-exhaustive list of outcomes that would have made me happy:
– Dorothy realizes she’s bi and goes on a quiet personal discovery. In this version of events, Willis makes good on long-running tension and humor…
– Dorothy and Joyce realize they have feelings for each other and both break up with the boys they’re dating to start an above-board relationship together.
– Hm, maybe Joyce knows something I don’t, and actually this is going to be fine with Joe?
– Joyce rejects Dorothy’s advances, due to any reason at all (I am confused by Billie as to how gal pals act, and will be tabling the bi question at this time! I have to talk to Becky about this before I act! I am bi but not for you! I am dating Joe at this time!)
– Dorothy stops herself, but like, actually stops herself, and we see her actually start to deal with her trauma.
– Joyce goes back to Joe before the protest and has a heart-to-heart about her recently-discovered Dorothy-like. Maybe they break up! Maybe they go non-exclusive/casual/dating around! Maybe they try to see if poly is on the table!
– Joyce goes back to Joe immediately after the protest kiss and comes clean. Maybe he understands! Maybe he reads her the riot act! Maybe some of the options from the bullet point above!
– Dorothy and Joyce sneak around, and get some appropriately messy and dramatic consequences for choosing the course of action most likely to snap back on them like a recalcitrant rubber band.
Personally, I see a lot of overlap.
Sure, my PREFERENCE would have been for “Joyce rejects this, because ‘I am dating Joe at this time!’. Doesn’t close a door, Joyce gets to have her awakening but also some tension, I still get a reasonable amount of Joeyce to fanboy over.” But this that’s happening now? I’ll take it.
I’m not currently subscribed to Willis’ Patreon, so when I went to look at the no-dialog crop of tomorrow’s strip that’s currently linked, my take was “… and if you ever tell anyone I admitted I was wrong, about anything, let me remind you that I have a bat.”
This strip is beautiful. It’s everything I wanted and more. I have my hopes about how this all shakes out, but someone calling them out like Sarah has here was what I most hoped for.
I’m sure there are some Joyce/Dorothy shippers who will react that way, but people finding out about the cheating and being rightfully mad is part of what the “mess! mess! mess!” crowd has always wanted, heh.
Agreed, but also: the ship I’m wishing for (though not expecting) is some kind of poly mess in which all four try to be in a poorly-planned relationship together which ends up being simultaneously disastrous and sweet, and while I’m definitely happy that things are going off the rails here, Sarah’s insistence that they actually communicate would also be progress toward the improbable dream ship.
Yes, it’s probably not going to happen, but if it does… we could have months of mess! Maybe even years!
I know, I know, there are lots of problems with this idea, Joe’s (very understandable) issues with cheating being merely the most obvious. Much of the appeal of this dream is in seeing how they struggle with these difficulties; the wish isn’t for blissfully easy romance, it’s for a long and complicated relationship that nonetheless brings happiness to all involved.
It may be a terrible idea, but so was Billie+Ruth.
I want to see them try messy poly, too. I don’t think it’s completely out of question yet, but it would probably take a while to get started either way.
Importantly, I know Willis has heard our pleas, and I imagine they’ve added “messy poly” to a list of future ideas if nothing else.
I think it’s important to note that the comments above yours are specifically referring to messy poly, the kind that is very much not happily-ever-after and the attempt only leads to More Drama.
Nah, I still want them to work it out eventually. I just both expect and desire complications and miscommunications and hurt feelings until they figure out a good balance ❤️
Yeah, Joyce, that thing you’re trying to do where you weasel rationalize something you know you’re doing wrong? Is not going to work on your big sister in ‘no bullshit’ mode.
I do like that she’s realized she’s had these feelings for a long time (since at least just before the time skip) though.
I must have completely missed when it was coined as a term, but when did Willis starting adopting the sickos vs. relationship paladins thing (the origin of the latter term is what I am particularly interested in)?
Sickos is not from The Onion. It’s from a “Chick tract”, a comic by the fundamentalist creationist Jack Chick who is so over the top he’s basically a parody of himself.
No, you’re wrong. The full image that the “sickos” bit is from is a cartoon in The Onion drawn by Stan Kelly. He’s likely parodying Chick tract among other reactionary cartoons, and maybe there’s a specific Sicko in there he’s referencing (I wouldn’t know), but the meme/image people know is absolutely an Onion cartoon. Iirc think it’s about drug legalization.
Also I don’t even think we can say it was specifically a parody of Jack Trick. The sicko looks like a character he’d draw, but he didn’t really do any labeling. His extremely unsubtle strips had more than one panel and weren’t in this style at all.
not looking forward to the IRL months Joe and Walky are gonna be devastated over this, especially Joe. We took a long road from Joe’s self loathing coming up to it getting dealt with and now he’s gonna be shattered into pieces over this.
Hopefully he will come out learning to pin his self confidence not on how other people see or treat him, but instead on honestly being proud of how well he treats others and the choices he makes to Do Better.
So… many pages back, someone here predicted Sarah’s reaction.
And I just wanna say, whoever you are you smart person you, you deserve a cookie!!!
Also, Sarah just moved up to my fave character. I never disliked her because she reminded me of a slightly less obnoxious Tsundere. But now I’m really fond of her.
This is honestly exactly how i hoped she’d react. Just pire disappointment in Joyce and its, ugh, im sorry for doubting you willis, i was too impatient
I find that at least a possibility because, and this is important. HE ALREADY KNOWS DOROTHY LIKES JOYCE! He called her out on it himself. He has to suspect this was a possibility. I don’t know if he’d be okay with poly but I don’t think that discussion would be out of the question for him. I think the real issue would be that Joyce would prefer Dorothy over him and love her more.
I feel like maybe he would have at first, if she approached him at the beginning… But the way she’s been acting, she has just been so dismissive of Joe entirely that if I were him and I could see these last few strips, I’d be too hurt to stay in a relationship
I feel like it would last about as long as it took for Danny to go “have some dignity, Joe.”
Which is not to say they couldn’t be a big poly pile with dignity. But not under these circumstances they couldn’t, and Danny both A) Cares About Joe enough to recognize that and B) is Danny, and thus him being the one telling someone to have some dignity about this would be the wakeup call.
I believe in that. Since the first time, when Joyce was struggling with sex to him. I believe he will be smart to detect this, before to discover the cheating.
You’re not alone, it’s been a subject of debate for at least the last few months.
The evidence “for”: This strip was linked by Willis in a megapost of various hints for Joyce/Dorothy and discussion over earlier points in the story where they almost pulled the “Joe confronts Dorothy about whether or not she has feelings for Joyce” trigger, basically confirming that Joe isn’t just talking about going drinking with Dorothy.
Also, of course, he went and talked to Dorothy, and his approach was pretty understanding.
Plus, there’s this, and all the other many things Joyce has said about Dorothy over the course of their relationship.
I don’t think this is going to be as big a surprise as Joyce and Sarah think it is.
If Joyce and Dorothy had come to him before they kissed, I think he would’ve been expecting it, even, and prepared for the conversation, even if not necessarily truly prepared emotionally for what a poly relationship with Joyce would mean.
(I don’t think the way he talked about “allowing” himself to feel jealousy is healthy!)
At this point, of course, they did kiss, and Willis made sure to remind us that Joe might have a specific type of feeling about being cheated on, and here Sarah is, calling it a betrayal.
(As for Walky, he’s joked a couple of times about wanting to try poly with Lucy and Amber. He was less than enthused about the idea of Joyce specifically, though, when Dorothy told him she’d expressed tipsy interest in watching them have sex, clearly expecting him to think it was hot.
I don’t think Walky will be surprised, either, heh, but I find him hard to read, and it’s all going to depend on how it hits him: is this “finally, I was right all along about my girlfriend having a girlfriend” or is it more like “well. I see I’m not even good enough to offer a meaningless distraction all on my own, she also needed someone else.”)
So, Joyce is easy. She clearly wants to have her Dorothy and keep Joe too. I mean, she went to his room intending to break up with him, but it clearly wasn’t making her happy, and then she not only didn’t break up with him, she went down on him. So yeah.
Joe has been pretty clear that his primary concern is Joyce’s happiness — to a degree that I frankly find kind of concerning, and which is one of the reasons I’ve lost interest in the ship. I’ve shipped Joyce and Joe since… Roomies Redux? One of the flashback Roomies! arcs, anyway. But the thing I liked about them is the way they pushed and challenged each other, and when they actually got together here, that just… went away.
But anyway, he knows the score with Joyce and Dorothy. He confronted Dorothy about it before she even admitted it to herself, and didn’t seem upset with her about it. He knows about laundry day, and his reaction was surprise and maybe just a little prurient interest. In a vacuum, I think he’d be fine with Joyce’s Dorothy time being naked time, and would try very hard to resist asking if he could watch. Of course, we’re no longer in a vacuum here; we’re in a cloud of tear gas and teenage hormones.
Walky’s known the score longer than anyone. I know certain people here will dismiss him as just being a jerk, but he’s way more observant than he lets on. He just frames it as snark and plausible deniability because that’s how he approaches everything. He’s had Joyce’s feelings for Dorothy pegged for months, their time, and nailed Dorothy’s motivations (right after nailing her) for floating the idea of closet Joyce watching them fornicate well before she was willing to admit them to herself.
However, he seems a lot more emotionally fragile than he was the first time around with Dorothy, and I’m not sure how he’d take Dorothy being in lesbians with Joyce moving from the hypothetical to the real.
And that brings us down to Dorothy. As with Danny at the beginning of the comic, she’s already broken up with Walky in her heart and just hasn’t sent him the memo yet. And she’s not going to like sharing her Joyce with anyone, least of all Joe. And I’m not sure if she realizes, or wants to realize, that Joyce is not necessarily on the same page she is about exactly what they need to tell the boys.
One of the things going on here is that not only haven’t Joyce and Dorothy talked to the boys about this, but they haven’t even really talked to each other. They’re still just reacting.
If this were a musical, I think Joe would have just sung “Jolene” to Dotty. He was willing to step aside for Joyce’s happiness, but didn’t seem to consider any outcome other than Joyce choosing one of them. AU Joe in the older comics is another story, but Dumbiverse Joe seems to have diverged significantly.
Walky’s been making jokes from the start of the comic, so he was arguably the first to know. He’s also joked about polyamory before, but like Li said, didn’t seem to find Dotty’s pillow talk about Joyce very enticing.
Dotty and Joyce also seem to have chosen each other over the guys, no contest. Doesn’t seem like a great basis for a poly relationship. I’m usually all for polycule shipping if a character feels too strongly about their romantic interests to easily pick one, but that’s not how this has been playing out.
Certainly not alone, but probably wouldn’t work out.
First of all, there is a difference between being okay with your partner pursuing another person, and being okay with cheating. Maybe Joe could have been okay with it, but for the past 24 hours Joyce has repeatedly disregarded him. If he has any self-respect (which he might not) he won’t be okay with that sort of behavior from a partner.
Second is Joe’s particular relationship with infidelity and self-worth. If Joe dismisses the cheating it is only because he thinks so little of himself that he thinks he deserves it.
Personally, I am rooting for the Joe/Joyce/Dorothy route as well, because I want to see it burn. None of them are sufficiently mature, thoughtful, or prepared to make it work out. Let it blow up and have them all hate each other. It would be dramatic
I think he might have been willing to consider it if she’d come clean about it BEFORE she hared off to the kiss. He clearly understood there were feelings there.
He might even have been willing if she’d’ve come back and they’d talked about it.
I don’t think the Joe who was traumatized out of “relationships” entirely by infidelity is going to be inclined to ANY sort of arrangement with the person who “kissed Dorothy a lot”, “went to him afterwards and not only didn’t tell him but engaged in sexual contact”, and then “went BACK to Dorothy and spent the night, romantically, with her”.
I have to disagree with Sarah here. Yeah it’s great that Joe changed, and he might not be bad for Joyce but that doesn’t make him good for her either. I’m not saying he IS bad for her but there are things to consider.
Joe is/was Joyce’s first ever relationship. And it is/was Joe’s first relationship after he decided to drop his “Man Whore” ways.
I think it was pretty unlikely that they’d stay together. But I do agree that the betrayal sucks. Even if I’m on “Team Sickos” about Joyce and Dorothy .
And even if he IS good for her, I feel like there is some heavy good equals “the one” happening.
I think Sarah is less trying to argue an subjectively objective statement about Joe, and more is explaining her reversal in attitude towards Joe (since Joyce was trying to deflect from the topic of the their cheating being disapproved of by bringing up Sarah’s previous open opposition to Joyce and Joe dating).
I agree. She’s not saying “you need to stay with Joe because he’s good for you,” she’s just responding to Joyce asking why she cares about her cheating on him.
I think it isn’t about “stay with whichever relationship is best for you”. It is a situation where it doesn’t matter how good Joyce/Dorothy might be for Dorothy, because pursuing it without being honest to Joe is a fundamentally selfish and dishonest action.
So kissing Dorothy might feel great to Joyce, but at that same time, the choice to kiss Dorothy is Joyce being “morally bankrupt” to quote Danny.
I don’t have a clever quip or in-depth analysis, but just wanted to say I’m giddy for this storyline and the drama and heartbreak and heartwarming moments with developments for everyone.
I feel like the vibes are a little doomer tonight. Like Joe and Joyce breaking up is inevitable. (Not a lot thinking about Walky. Poor guy.) They already shipping Joe with other ladies. I thought we liked Joe/Joyce? I don’t know. I guess I’m just more optimistic this can resolve better than that. If one night kissing and cuddling is enough to destroy Joe and Joyce’s relationship it wasn’t worth much to begin with,
It’s not the lie, it’s the cover up. It’s not the kissing that’s the problem, it’s Joyce’s complete disregard for Joe’s feelings.
He just got done reminding her that infidelity was the reason why his parents split up, and she took the thoughtful gift he gave her and hid under it with another woman that she was romantically engaged with.
The level of disrespect from that is absolutely insane.
This exactly! The reason Joeyce cannot and should not survive this is plainly Joyce’s repeated disregard for Joe’s feelings in pursuit of her own interests. She could grow beyond that, but that’s typically something that takes years.
I also need to add that Joyce’s entire vibe with Joe, and this is as an avid Joeyce shipper since It’s Walky, has been “sure I’ll give it a go”. Joe has been massively more invested in Joyce compared to her interest and investment in him. Yes, that still could have been an interesting and fulfilling relationship, could have even lasted their entire lives! But Joyce is not and has not ever been head over heels for Joe, the balance in terms of power of affection is pretty skewed in their relationship.
Joyce and Dorothy has a lot more basis for a relationship, including mutual repressed pining for likely almost the entire time they’ve known each other. That’s why the comments have signed off of Joeyce and believe Jorothy will be the surviving ship.
Joyce seems to have internalized that lying by omission is not true lying. hence why she able to have sex with Joe and take a gift intended for his ‘exclusive girlfriend’ without blurting out “I’m not cheating!” hoping Sarah calls that out too, atleast give Joe the option to return the gift Joyce!
Well walky is obviously not going to be the focus when the current comic is directly adressing Joe specifically. In a similar vein, you saw a lot of people talking about becky on other strips, but obviously not on this one.
Similarly, this is THE turning point strip. How joyce responds to this advice kinda determines everything about how smoothly this whole situation resolves. And IN this specific strip, joyce is at her worst. Activley trying to deflect from a correct assertion by bringing up a low moment in Sarah. I can see why people would assume she will make the wrong choice (although I think it could go either way)
Although I guess i’ll also add that you are gonna get some different perspectives. like, i would guess a lot of the people who are excitedly talking about who to pair Joe up with are not the same people who were yearning for Joe/Joyce to make it through this. Theres a lot of different people reading and although a lot really like that ship, theres always going to be some who aren’t that attatched.
Tbf I felt like Walky getting back with Dorothy was less serious then the last time it happened and felt more like set up to make her parallel in adultry with Joyce.
A lot of the paladins pretty much immediately swapped to “Joyce is trash and Joe deserves better” as soon as it became clear that we weren’t being set up for “Joyce rejects Dorothy”.
I’m still hoping for poly, but I never expected it to happen immediately or be immediately happy.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again that Willis has really pulled something off with the writing that nowadays Joe the guy with the do-list ranking women who spent most of his pre time skip screen time being a jerk that regularly said misogynist shit about women or anything related to being a lesbian, mostly at Joyce and Dorothy, is now the guy everyone is defending even in the comic itself. While Joyce and Dorothy, two women who took the blunt of pre character development Joe’s bullshit are now framed as the jerks.
But seriously, Joe has changed a lot and he’s in the right here, so it’s not surprising he’s got his defenders. At the same time, I’m not sure how much that’s really Willis pulling anything off. Joe’s always had his defenders, even at his worst and since he started to change an awful lot of them have been happy to completely hand wave away his past issues. To me, that’s actually a failure of Joe’s characterization and it undercuts his development.
Walky is the one most likely to sugest polyamory. It’s possible he remains dating Dorothy while Dorothy dates Joyce and Walky asks out Amber and/or AG.
Walky / Dorothy 2.0 is obviously cooked, and honestly good riddance to it. Blatant rebound on Walky’s part and blatant comphet on Dorothy’s part.
Joe / Joyce has avenues to continued existence, but while I can see the appeal for “Joyce attempts a polyamory” I think the ship sinking feels right to me. Maybe it can settle low enough that it might rise again, but Joyce having to deal with the fallout of genuinely hurting someone and Joe having to lock-in his character growth independent of a woman he was trying to fix himself for both feel like good character beats.
It is cooked and I think you’re basically right about the way it was going. I think that’s kind of a shame, even if it was baked in to the set up. I was never really happy with how their first relationship ended and they were obviously still into each other for a long time after. I’d hoped we could actually get a second take on them with both of them in very different places than they were the first time around. But no, that’s not where it was headed.
I feel like a single night of kissing and cuddling is enough to destroy and overwhelming amount of monogamous relationships. Like… it ends decades long marriages, destroys entire families, has started whole ass wars and gotten people smite in mythology.
Like, Joe and Joyce have been together like a week, there is zero reason to expect this relationship to withstand such a betrayal. If it had been discussed beforehand, sure, maybe, but Joyce and Dorothy are bungling approaching this from a potential poly standpoint (if that’s even something they wanted.)
I think context matters a lot for that. Making a premeditated decisions to sleep around or find intimacy with someone else behind your partner’s back when you’re in a long term committed relationship is different than spontaneously kissing the girl you’ve openly loved for months. I can understand Joyce and Dorothy getting caught up in those intense emotions for one night (within reason, if they’d slept together or crossed other intimate lines I think the problem is way more serious)
I am concerned by how okay Joyce seems to be with hopping back and forth between Joe and Dorothy, an attitude she showed before the kiss even happened. That actually feels unfair to Dorothy too. But overall this feels like a very brutal criteria Joyce and Dorothy are being held too. I didn’t know the margin of error was that razor thin.
I’ll speak only for myself: it’s not the spontaneous kissing that would be the dealbreaker, it’s that my partner did something they realized would hurt me and then chose to keep doing it rather than coming to me and talking about it. At that point it doesn’t really matter whether the pants stayed on or not.
Now if we’re talking about a years-long committed relationship, I’d at least consider sticking around and trying to repair things. But someone I’ve only known for months and dated for weeks? Heck no, I’d be out.
The hopping back and forth is definitely a problem and something we really need to get more insight into. What’s Joyce thinking there? Is she thinking?
But if this isn’t an insurmountable problem for JoJo, what is it? Joyce isn’t going to drop Dorothy and just go back to Joe. I guess poly is possible, but doesn’t seem to have even crossed anyone’s mind.
I think John Campell above articulated it better than I can. My take is if the girl you know is in love with your gf kisses your gf to me that kinda falls in line with what I’d expect could happen. It stings, but to me a conversation and clarification of boundaries and expectations resolves that before any real hurt is done.
While I personally enjoy the framing of them cucking Joe under his own weighted blanket as the ultimate betrayal of faith that will beckon the end of JoJo and every relationship near them. I don’t really think it’s that serious yet. Sarah is already grilling them for even doing that.
Yes, I totally agree that hopping back and forth feels like a massive FU to Dorothy. Like, I would’ve been rethinking things if I were her after Joyce came back from Joe having given him a BJ instead of breaking up with him. Mad “Nah babe I’m gonna leave my wife” energy. I felt bad for her.
It’s a red flag, but Dorothy is probably so fixated on finally having Joyce – the one thing she wanted more than anything, more than Yale! – means that she’s going to ignore it, and it gets to be something that can fester into something worse down the line.
See, in the vein of context mattering, there was that one strip back where Joe said to Joyce, paraphrased, “I want you to do what you want”.
I have a hard time, the more I look back at those strips, reading that as anything other than “I won’t be upset if you pick Dorothy, as long as you PICK Dorothy or me.” IMHO he was trying to give her a safe out for both of them, she rejected it, and then did the thing anyway.
I think it’s going to be a blow to the Joe + Joyce friendship, which bums me out more than the relationship. They could talk about things they couldn’t with other people, or at least didn’t. I don’t know if they can get back to that, at least not without a big timeskip.
At this point, I don’t think Joyce *deserves* Joe anymore. She’s the literal cliché of being happy with a good partner but still stepping out because of feelings.
And frankly, she’s all over the place. Whatever guilt she had about Joe upon talking with him, she apparently swallowed after swallowing *him* because now she’s just cavalier about the whole thing.
Im love that “you know its wrong”.
Im wonder if Sarah play “if you dont tell him I will” card Joyce will counter with “as you do with your previous rommate” and regret it.
So drama
Sarah actually giving Joe a chance and allowing him into her life and trusting him to do the right thing is making this conversation twice as devastating. She finally didn’t want this, and worse yet it’s happening the opposite of what she assumed — Joe, who is very sensitive to cheating, is in the blast zone of Joyce’s reckless behavior.
I’m loving how reckless and mean joyce is in this one. It’s a really compelling call back to all the small and petty ways she can act coming up in one place.
It makes sense, too, shes feeling very defensive, and probably a little scared. I would guess she genuinley loves both dororthy and joe, and her childish actions trying to keep both of them for as long as she can reflect that.
She doesn’t want to lose him, but isn’t willing to reject her feelings for dorothy for the sake of that. To her, what she feels towards dorothy is really joyful, and the idea of it being in any way morally wrong probably feels pretty hurtful, so she just deflects it and tries to point out something Sarah did instead.
Oh no no no no no. Way funnier would have been the suggestion made yesterday: that she was cross about the going to the protest and not telling anyone…
Mostly just the people who were up in arms about them cheating thought that. Some of them seemed very angry about that posibility as if it had already happened.
Which is an odd response, given how slowly time moves in this comic. An interaction that would take a couple minutes of real time takes place over a week or two in comics-time. Folks gotta remember the time dilation factor. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it never will… so to them I say, hold your horses. Watch and wait.
It also seemed like there was a lot of interpreting “they should just have poly!” and “this is exactly right, I don’t care about the boyfriends’ feelings” comments as “we want no consequences”.
And of course, the vast, vast amount of people on every side of the discussion exaggerating for provocative reasons didn’t help.
Even some supporters thought so. I recall a lot of people basically expecting reactions would be more like how Sal acted upon seeing them hugging outside the building.
Very little fanfare or just kind of expecting it to happen. Hell, in the previous pages, a lot of people actually didn’t see Sarah being this upset about it. I saw much surprise in the comments.
No. “You guys think they’ll get away consequence free” was primarily something other people made up.
The issues were always “An act of cheating is being primarily portrayed as cute/romantic. I think it is bad to glamorize or romanticize any part of cheating,”
There was also a major contingent of “Joyce, in character, is behaving in a way I don’t understand given her arc” and “Joe and Joyce really got shortchanged, and it was just getting interesting!/Joe doesn’t deserve this shit after he worked so hard” among the so-called paladins.
I think there is some truth to both of those, although they don’t matter that much to me personally.
Joyce has never acted with such disregard to someone she cares about. She has made mistakes before out of ignorance, but the closest to this situation was the incident with Liz and self-righteous atheism. In that instance she genuinely thought she was right, and it was still a just case of Becky overhearing a bunch of venting.
I don’t really care about Joe/Joyce, so it doesn’t matter to me if they got shortchanged or not. They were cute, but frankly I am more interested in the Jennifer + Alice storyline (can we get back to that?).
Joe doesn’t deserve this shit, which is part of what makes Joyce shitty.
BorkBorkBork phrased it well:
“But I am concerned that the core message will be, ‘That was a really awkward time, and I regret hurting someone else, but it was worth it because now I’m with my soulmate.’
Which is just the sort of lie that people tell themselves while they are in the moment justifying cheating.
…
What I wish, is that someone would treat this as if it wasn’t just either something that “Oh noes, Dorothy and Joyce are goign to get in trooouble” or “Ooo, hot, cheating lesbians” or “The sinners shall burn in the fires of Mount Doom for eternity” or something.”
You’re making a great point about how Joyce primarily acts, and that she’s never this uncaring, intentionally, to anyone she cares about. That’s honestly why I felt like there were problems with the Joe/Joyce relationship for some time – Joe is head over heels for Joyce; Joyce just loves someone being head-over-heels for her. She cared about him, sure, as “the experienced boyfriend.” Whereas Joe was more interested in taking her out, getting to know her.
So I’m OK with this. Not because Joe deserves this – but because Joe deserves better than what he was getting.
I realized something, since that above bit you quoted, which you helped me see. This is a comic strip that moves at a snail’s pace. So whatever it *eventually* turns out the real moral of the story was – if there is one – we won’t know for two years anyways. That eventual narrative point doesn’t matter as much as what is happening now, in the moment.
Those moments you say are “primarily portrayed as romantic/cute” – these little happy adorkable moments of Joyce and Dorothy being precious and silly and funny and heartwarming – that’s what we’re using to reinforce the “Cheating is OK if it’s for your soulmate” and the “Cheating is OK when you’re doing it because you realize you’re queer” and the “Ooo hot lesbians” and the “Back in my day you had to agree to ‘go steady’ first for this to be cheating anyways” perspective. That’s why we feel uneasy about it now – not because the message *could* be bad, but the message *is* bad.
Other than Mike, who was clearly meant to be somewhere between a bit character, an antihero, and a non-villainous antagonist – Does Willis ever let us see any somewhat redeeming aspects of people he portrays as bad?
I can’t think of any. Walky’s mom has always been portrayed as problematic. Same with Mary. Same with Clint. Same with Toedad and Blaine and Carol and Ryan. I was absolutely shocked when Naiomi came and spoke to Ethan, and ALL she very very grumpilly basically said that she would rather Ethan be alive and gay than dead and closeted. That is the closest we’ve ever seen a “bad guy” be portrayed somewhere close to sympathetic. Willis works *really hard* to make sure that, if there are people in the comments section going, “But look you have to give Toedad a break, he’s just doing what he thins is right because he loves his daughter!” we can clearly say that person is a bigot because there is no ambiguity.
Not that I’m saying that Dorothy or Joyce are now “bad guys.” But what’s going on is being handled, not even with equal parts positive and negative, but has mostly been portrayed as positive up until VERY recently. It just feels very, very weird, for a comic strip that is so very focused on trying to tell these stories that essentially talk about morality in our modern age, for this one to act so laissez-faire to something which is objectively hurtful and cruel.
Your “side” of this debate is bigger than you think it is and contains conflicting feelings.
Several people did worry pretty explicitly that there weren’t going to be any consequences: Jay on this very page is talking about being relieved to be wrong.
In this thread all Jay said was that they apologized for being impatient. In previous threads they commented on how the drawn out storyline was frustrating for them because they wanted it resolved immediately.
“I will keep throwing my tantrum till it’s over”
“NO. WE NEED ZERO CUTS FROM THIS STORY. I NEED RESOLUTION I’M GOING INSANE”
“I will concede time dilation is making this arc much more annoying than usual. I needz like, the next month of pages xD”
This reads to me less like “I think there will be zero consequences and that upsets me” as “I am impatient for there to be consequences.
I don’t speak for everyone, but is see far more people mocking people for “thinking there won’t be consequences” than that position is actually put forward.
It’s no more a dishonest straw man than “sickos are fuming!”, which is equally more popular as a comment than any sickos actually saying they’re upset.
It’s not the majority opinion, but it’s not no one at all, either.
And I am not making the argument that “sickos are fuming”. I am not defending that take.
I am saying “You’re mad because you think there won’t be any consequences” is a dishonest take. I am sure it is true of some people, but even with the example you gave I haven’t seen it be true among the majority.
I mean, ask Jay. I can’t speak for him. It certainly seemed to me that he was worried there wouldn’t be consequences.
I also think a lot of people have said things that sounded like they were worried there wouldn’t be consequences. Big Z has said things that sounded like that, but it apparently wasn’t his real concern. You’ve said things that sounded like that, and you’re clarifying that it wasn’t your concern either.
There’s a difference between misunderstanding people and constructing straw men.
And by the way, when I said “It’s no more a dishonest straw man than “sickos are fuming!”, which is equally more popular as a comment than any sickos actually saying they’re upset,” it wasn’t an accusation that you were specifically making this argument.
It was just me pointing out that today’s comment section has two rather popular “reactions” to things that I don’t think are really happening.
I’ve been annoyed by one, you’re annoyed by the other, but after a good night’s sleep I don’t think either is actually a straw man.
Speaking purely for myself, most of my reactions were intended to be “I want consequences SOONER”, not “If I don’t see consequences immediately I believe they won’t exist”.
Yeah, I think that might also be true of other folks!
I just think it wasn’t an unreasonable interpretation of the literal words folks have been saying?
Just like I’m trying to acknowledge that despite my confidence that no one actually means “it’s homophobic to be mad about cheating”, I can see how some comments might read that way.
Hello I’m sorry I didnt respond to this sooner but at a singular point in time i commented in thinking the consequences might not be …. I dont wanna say severe but cant think of amother word enough. Like I was worried it’d not have the weight it deserved and I was thoroughly proven incorrect. We haven’t even gotten to the meat of it but I’m all in again I’m sorry for being an impatient little dick the past few weeks
I mean up till this moment they’ve actively been out of denial for what, 15 hours maximum? And have come to the conclusion basically 8 hours ago that they wanted more out of this thing. So.
Lol just funnin ya IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THE PROPER SARAH BLOWUP
of course it’s not about Walky XD
JUSTIIIIIICE
Okay now break it to em both carefully and then everyone go relocate to the Read floor’s resident polyamory experts and then we can all be good and kiss and stuff with 700% clear communications!
I can’t speak for anyone else, but for my part, it’s not that they’re cheating, specifically, that I defend. It’s that I’m always gonna cheer for queer girls, even if it’s the most toxic yuri you’ve ever seen.
I crave queer mess, because so often we’re not fucking allowed to be messily queer, and some of the comments the last couple weeks have proven that over and over.
Could you point to what sort of comments you are referring to? Was there something indicating that if Joe were the one cheating they would be more forgiving?
Because if being a mess means cheating then I don’t think queer girls should cheat, I don’t think queer boys should cheat. Non-binary people shouldn’t cheat either.
You’ve misread the comment if you think queer boys and queer enbies are allowed to be messy.
The comment was: “queer people aren’t allowed to be messy”. Queer people are given less leeway than straight percis etc people, both in real life and in fiction.
This is just a fact, there is no use arguing over it. Whether or not you agree that the comment section exemplifies it, the broader point is true, and also mostly subconscious, so no one is going to say “I’d be fine with this if it were two straight people”.
But I also don’t think people would be okay with the cheating if it was a straight person. I know I wouldn’t be.
So saying “queer people aren’t allowed to be messy” is true, but irrelevant unless we think a straight person would be getting away with the same behavior.
If Joe was cheating on Joyce do you think the audience would be more forgiving?
First, I should probably say: I don’t think everyone would be okay with this if it weren’t two women. I do think different people would be upset. I also think there would be slightly less vitriol. Because I can just go back to the Jacob/Joyce cheating and see that there was less vitriol back then.
People weren’t “more okay with cheating”, but no one thought Joyce was taking advantage of Jacob, and no one thought she was going to force a kiss on him, and no one thought she was only interested in him because she was horny (even though Becky voiced that possibility in the strip itself), and no one started counter-shipping Joyce with men who were superficially similar to Jacob and hoping she’d hook up with one of them instead of telling Jacob she was interested.
It was noticeably different.
Also, if Joe specifically cheated on Joyce, I do actually think some people would be more understanding — Joe is one of the most popular characters in the comic at this point, and people bend over backwards to retcon away his previous bad behavior rather than acknowledging that his character growth started from a pretty bad place!
There’s been quite a few “what did Joe even do that was so bad” threads over the years, several of them since this arc started. Lots of “Dorothy is worse than Joe ever was”.
I think if Joe cheated on Joyce, there would be people blaming his dad for it, and people blaming Dorothy and Sarah and Rachel for it — they expected too little of him, they made him feel like he can’t be any better than this, they drove him to it.
I think if Joe had someone like Dorothy in his life — not Danny, let’s avoid adding that complication, but a female friend that people had been shipping Joe with for a long time, with whom he had a sudden moment of passion after years of Willis teasing that maybe he liked her that way, and a month of comics revealing that she felt the same way — then a lot of people would probably ship him with her, and be excited that they got together.
And some people would still be mad about the cheating.
But probably not quite as quick to declare Joe a bad person.
I mean lbr, they’d definitely blame the girl I just made up instead, but even if it was clearly 100% his fault, I think a LOT of us would be trying to understand his motivations and worrying for him.
I seriously doubt it would be 100% “yeah he sucks, set him on fire”.
Second Joyce wasn’t trying to get Jacob to cheat on Raidah, she was trying to get Jacob to break up with Raidah. Still shitty, but it doesn’t involve deceiving Raidah.
Third, Jacob didn’t really reciprocate. It was Joyce being devious and Jacob being friendly. Once Jacob started feeling stuff, and once Joyce pretended he was her boyfriend, he broke things off. It was never framed as romantic, mostly it was framed as Joyce can be sneaky when she wants to be, and needs to learn boundaries.
So no, you wouldn’t get a strong blowback because a) there wasn’t cheating and b) cheating was not framed positively.
As for if people would excuse Joe cheating on Joyce, I can’t speak for the hypothetical people you describe, but as someone who does think Joyce and Dorothy are being super shitty I can tell you that I would probably be even more annoyed at Joe. More annoyed specifically because it would be a more boring storyline, with a defeatist message.
And yeah, I doubt it would be 100% yeah he sucks set him on fire… rather like how the response to this strip isn’t 100% saying Joyce and Dorothy suck.
But at the same time it seems like there is an awful lot of painting the dislike of cheating and how it has been handled as homophobic, without a whole lot of evidence.
I am sure there are some people out there who are biased against it because it is queer, but right now it seems like the comments section is mostly composed of queer folk. Latest results on the survey indicate a majority of folk are gender queer and a majority are not straight.
Now queer people can certainly be homophobic and sexist, but maybe we are also leaping to the “you don’t like it because you are prejudiced” real quick without a lot of evidence.
1. Dorothy wasn’t trying to get Joyce to cheat on Joe, either! She mostly specifically tried to get Joyce to stop crossing lines, but was clearly also overwhelmed by her own feelings sometimes (like when they mutually agreed to go “do laundry” together, though it also wasn’t Dorothy who defined that as having sex, and it’s possible Dorothy thought of it as “yes, we should go masturbate, so that we won’t do something stupid and regrettable due to horniness”).
2. I don’t think this is an accurate description of what happened. “Once Joyce pretended she was his girlfriend” is actually when they started crossing lines together, and Joyce used the opportunity to point out that it was weird that Jacob had told his brother all about her, but not even Raidah’s name, and then Jacob agreed (for the second time) to keep pretending she was his girlfriend in front of his brother, and then he agreed out loud with his mouth that pretending to be a couple with her felt nice, and then he kissed her, and then he told her that she should have just told him how she felt, because then he might be her boyfriend now, but he didn’t like how all of this had gone down. Then he went and broke up with Raidah, and presumably avoided Joyce for a while (off panel).
3. There WAS a strong blowback. Like I said.
4. The kiss was definitely cheating, and Jacob kissed Joyce while she was in the middle of arguing that he didn’t need to break up with Raidah because “nothing even happened” (between her and Jacob).
5. No one is actually saying “it’s homophobic to dislike cheating”, though. And I specifically did not say people are upset because they’re homophobic.
I said some of the comments have made queerphobic arguments, and I noted that there’s been more vitriol than there was last time. Not more people being upset, but people who are upset expressing themselves in a more vitriolic way that lines up with certain negative queerphobic stereotypes, like predatory lesbians, and depraved, hypersexual bisexuals.
It’s fine that you haven’t personally noticed this, but when you see “people sure are mad about queer girls kissing”, take a breath and remember that actually, yes, some people are mad explicitly about that.
Some people have complained loudly that Joyce “should” be straight, some people have complained that Willis is “pushing an agenda”, some people have sneered that everyone who thinks Joyce and Dorothy are cute is just “horny” for yuri.
There’ve been accusations that “porn lord Willis” is only doing this for money.
If none of that sounds queerphobic to you — okay. You’re entitled to your opinion, I guess, but you’ve gotta at least realize that it’s pretty blatantly queerphobic to a lot of other readers, and sometimes they’re gonna complain about it.
It’s still not fair to say “EVERYONE who’s mad is being homophobic”, and I’ve pushed back on that when I’ve seen it, but MOST of the comments that are being read that way haven’t said “everyone”, they’ve just said “people” or “a lot of people”, which are not the same thing.
Well, if people keep going on and on and on about the C-word isn’t enough, maybe we could make it more dramatic/boring/aggressive by having a lack of surprising quietness.
Define cheating, without assuming monogamy.
Define what is and isn’t cheating in a way that isn’t a personal opinion.
Let’s have a conversation between Joyce and Dorothy about what they are expecting/wanting here.
Explain why fictional characters doing drama is unacceptable when a comic is made of drama.
Etc etc, yada yada.
Or we can just stop reading comments containing the c-word, and be surprisingly quiet because we don’t want a comments section full of arguing back and forth.
Nobody is “assuming monogamy.” Joe and Joyce have already had discussions in regards to their relationship and what is cheating. Way back when Joyce talked about “doing laundry with Dorothy.” It’s even further emphasized in this strip here: Joyce isn’t feigning ignorance, or pretending that this isn’t wrong. Her actions, their decision to break up with their current partners, Dorothy’s concerns about Walky, and the secretive way they’re going about it, all state that we’re not “assuming monogamy,” we are deducing it with the same way that someone deduces that something which looks, walks, and quacks like a duck is likely a duck.
Cheating is *defined* by there being an agreed-upon expectation and then breaking it. That’s why it’s called “cheating”. You can see parallels in other different usages of the word – cheating on your taxes, means breaking the rules for your benefit. Cheating on a board game, means breaking the rules to get what you want. Cheating in a video game, is inputting in secret codes or using a device to manipulate the game data in a way that circumvents the intended play.
You can try Dictionary.com if you’re having a hard time believing these interpretations.
And I’ve been reading ever since the Drama Tag was pulled in Shortpacked. I’m all for drama. But heroes suddenly turning into villains but the narrative treating them like heroes, is usually when the audience gets up and leaves the theater.
It is easy to define cheating outside of a monogamous context because Poly people can still cheat. The essence of Polyamory is that it is consensual and honest. Cheating is by its nature not consensual and not honest.
If you are in a polyamorous relationship and you’ve agreed that you won’t have sex with other people without informing your existing partners, then if you break that agreement you are cheating. Cheating is about violating the mutually understood bounds of the relationship.
As a poly person, defining cheating outside of monogamy is easy:
Cheating is anything that breaks the rules of the relationship. Those rules can be explicitly stated or they can be implicit/assumed based on any number of cultural factors.
You may be thinking “wow, that’s not helpful — how can I follow rules that haven’t been discussed and might differ based on cultural context?”
And you’d be right, but that’s one of the many, many reasons why dating is fraught with peril regardless of your mono/poly status — entirely too much of what we might consider the rules of polite behavior and how not to harm your partner are just sort of assumed.
The fact is, though, if you break one of those unstated/implicit rules, and your partner is hurt and accuses you of cheating, “I didn’t know that was a rule, we never agreed on that” isn’t gonna get you out of the fact that you hurt your partner in a way THEY thought was obvious.
Some bongos I knew in college believed that even moving on after a breakup without permission from one’s ex was tantamount to cheating. Strongly enough so that police and court had to be involved.
How would that even work? The part where civil authorities got involved, I mean. I have trouble imagining the cops hearing “come quick officer, Sally is cheating on Jimmy with Bobby!” and rushing to the scene, I have even more trouble imagining a judge taking on such a case. As ethically repugnant as adultery is, as far as I’m aware, there is no explicit law against it (at least in the States.)
Or, and I’m only realizing this as I type… I suspect there were a number of escalating steps between “cheating on Jimmy with Bobby” and litigation.
Meanwhile, I’m just assuming there were a few simple, stupid steps:
Rico breaks up with Tony.
Rico starts dating Lola without checking with Tony that they’re BOTH ready to move on.
Tony sees them hanging out at the bar, and then the punches flew, and chairs were smashed in two.
What does that even mean?
How about cheating that only went on for a half hour or so? Like they hooked up with someone else at a party and then came back to you. No one in college would care, right?
This argument is the weirdest to me. Like, I get the spontaneous kiss with a new crush followed by a breakup. It’s still gonna hurt, but it’s not the end of the world. It’s a little out of order, but not really much worse than getting dumped always is. But we’re already moving out of that territory. They had the opportunity to talk to the boys and passed it up. Joyce doubled down with her first bj. Then went back to go sleep with Dorothy. That’s not a direct verbal lie, but it’s definitely lying by implication.
That’s about where I am – the initial kiss while ‘under fire’ in the park, I’m broadly fine with, especially so since the initial reaction was ‘well I guess we have some tough conversations with boys waiting when we get home’.
And then they chose ‘more kisses’ instead of actually having those conversations. And giggled and joked about it. (Oh, it’s on Dorothy’s to do list! Right at the bottom in teeny print, see? Hee hee!) That’s where the contempt really comes in for me.
Joyce at least pretended to try to talk to Joe. Dorothy hasn’t even given Walky that much. (Though I do think he’s been less attached this time around, so there’s a non-zero chance he hasn’t actually been considering Dorothy his girlfriend the way she thinks he has. He does, after all, know that sometimes what Dorothy means is ‘I don’t have time/inclination to girlfriend you, but I expect you to still boyfriend me’ thanks to their first breakup way back, and sometimes Walky does learn what he’s taught.)
You definitely do not attend the college I did, if you think this is the case. I’ve witnessed entire dorm friend groups have shattered over things like this, more than once.
Right? Everyone’s on board with “Dumbing of Age, not Smarting of Age” when it comes to “so they (J&D) can make myopic and hurtful relationship choices” but then conveniently forgets that will also apply to “so they (the rest of the cast) can make myopic and hurtful friendship choices”
Folks frequently forget this with the concept of “free speech.” Yes, a person is allowed to spew whatever ignorant bile and venom you want so long as they do not physically attack people. I, however, am also free to call them a massive gaping asshole for it and decide I don’t want to hang out with them.
that…is such out of touch bullshit I’m gonna die laughing. Especially these days bro, there is no crowd more moralistic than zoomer college students who spent their developmental years in the pandemic. Hell I was an annoying “I can out woke you just watch”, grew up on 2010s Tumblr type when I was a fresher. Maybe not fuckboy fratbros but your average college kid would absolutely tear their friend a new asshole for this. Especially since it’s 1000% going to fuck up the friend group. ESPECIALLY someone emotionally scarred and slow to open up like Sarah who’s lost a group to drama already
Heh, at least when I went to school in the late 1999s, even the fuckboy fratbros (I was a fratbro, but grew out of fuckboy-hood (look, it was a music frat, okay, I’m still a nerd)) would look serious askance on “dude, you just started dating and you’re doing this shit? You’re either sleeping around or you’re not, but you gotta pick a lane.”
For anyone else who needs a cackle over the iron about it all back when Dorothy was even further in denial. Was just rereading. Enjoy yourself.
I am so glad for Sarah getting friends that help her learn how to talk to each other normally. “Don’t jettison people because it’s convenient” indeed! In your pessimist face, Raidah!
See, this is the only reason why that one parent’s advice early in the strip – that everyone in the dorm create one giant, er, ‘friendship’ pile, doesn’t work.
Too many hurt feelings in among the hormones effervescent in everyone’s bloodstreams.
I tell thee, though, if a girl had thrown my younger, unmarried self the ‘whither thou goest, there goest i’ line to me on what is the closest thing to a battlefield in most modern Americans’ experience, then I would NOT have let that one go*. Everything else could be worked out later. Agape and eros are not as distinct as some philosophers would argue.
Or, as an ex-girlfriend told me, I am SUCH a romantic. (She’s the one with nice-smelling hair.)
*There’s a great scene in a Vorkosigan SF novel where our physically stunted hero Miles finally realizes years later what would have happened if he had actually managed to clasp hands with a woman who had saved a shuttlecraft-load of her fellow escaping POWs by manually freeing the ramp door to close, but was about to fall several thousand feet herself. Unlike his dreams and nightmares of saving or almost saving her, with his small body weight, he would have been sucked out with her.
Because, the woman he’s recounting this to realizes, he would not have let go.
As someone who is poly, the amount I see a poly ending for this bandied about in the comments, not just as a “wouldn’t it be great” but as a “something Willis would realistically do”, really makes me feel my fellow poly people have been in the community overlong. The view of poly lifestyles by wider society is like a circus, and it does not and likely will never have the popular support as a marginalised identity the way LGBTQIA+ identities have. There’s plenty of debat in both poly and LGBTQIA+ communities whether polyamory should belong under the umbrella, it does not currently in an official context, though I am someone who thinks it should, as I think some for some people being polyamorous is an identity and it is certainly viewed unfairly within the context of wider society.
The point is though, that none of these people are poly aware or poly prepared. Even if you understand that about yourself, poly takes a notoriously large amount of work to implement and maintain, largely because we have grown up in a society with thousands of years of religion-rooted monogamy as not just the default, but the only way acceptable. We also struggle with perceptions of polygamy as brought about by instances like those in Mormonism where having multiple partners is a transparent bid to implement such practices as outbreeding the competition and often familial abuse. The comic has shown no interest so far in seriously exploring what a socialised default to monogamy means when multiple people are romantically involved – it has instead been relegated to a side fact and bit of a joke for Sierra, a very minor character.
So saying, don’t let me harsh your vibe. I’d love a Joeyceothylkymber polycule too, I just don’t see a path having been laid for realistically exploring that – history with this comic and the ones before it tell me this situation will probably be drama fodder and teaching moments. I find it more respectful to tackle this in-comic rather than the Ruth/Billie split over the Timeskip, but this will pretty certainly result in the wholesale destruction of these relationships and eventual monogamous dynamics down the line.
Out of curiosity, as someone who is a member of the polyamorous demographic*, do you have any recommendations for media that has instances of positive and accurate representation of poly people and relationships?
* I didn’t know what the correct or preferred terminology on this is. I waffled between words like “community” and “lifestyle,” but settled on “demographic.” I realize that particular selection might come across as overly-clinical, but it seemed the most neutral word I could think of that (as far as I know) avoids any negative connotations or harmful stereotypes.
As someone who is poly, the amount I see a poly ending for this bandied about in the comments, not just as a “wouldn’t it be great” but as a “something Willis would realistically do”, really makes me feel my fellow poly people have been in the community overlong.
— There is a polycule in the comic.
— Joyce has asked them curious questions, though mostly in bonus comics (in the books and on Patreon).
— Walky suggested it to Lucy more than once, though it’s hard to tell how serious he was about it because he’s Walky.
— I think you should search for “polycule” and “poly” on Willis’s tumblr.
I think this points to the fact that heterosexuality is not just “two people of different genders in a relationship”.
Straightness is also about the larger structure and roles of the relationship.
When I’ve gone on dates with straight women, there have been some times where I felt the pressures of heterosexuality, where I felt like the relationship expectations were pressuring me to perform a particular representation of masculinity.
I haven’t felt that nearly as often on dates with queer people, only sometimes on dates with guys where it felt like there were expectations to adopt certain roles or norms.
“Straight” poly relationships would be those that conform strongly to heterosexual relationship norms.
Not making an argument here about whether Poly counts as queer. That sort of labeling isn’t what interests me.
I didn’t say they couldn’t be heterosexual, I said they’re still queer.
“Straightness” as a class is like whiteness, it’s defined by exclusion. I’m not the one saying poly people aren’t “normal”, that’s pericisheterosexism, friend!
* it’s society saying they’re “not normal”, and since they’re not normal in a specifically sex and or gender way, even when everyone involved is a consenting uncoerced adult, that makes them queer
Sarah must HATE IT that she has to be the idealistic, upstanding moral one in this situation… and she is against Joyce and Dotty. That’s some “World flipped upside down” kind of situation.
Yup. If Joyce at least doesn’t have a moment of realisation and collapse into a serious moral crisis over this, then I have to say I don’t understan her character at all anymore.
That is bad, because without character continuity none of this will mean anything.
Seeing Sarah, who is usually drawn chin up like she is in the first panels, looking up at them to make her plea is very impactful. Plus the sunrise colors? Delicious Sarah content, love my girl
i still don’t actually think joe is 100% good for her, and she’s certainly not being good for him right now. he disregarded what she said about not being too confrontational with her mom. not saying his motives were bad or he’s not grown as a person since the start of the comic, but that was the moment that made me more skeptical of them as a couple when i’d been trying to have an open mind about it. now joyce is disregarding his feelings, too, in a more blatant and less impulsive but well intentioned way. i do like joyce/dorothy and sometimes like “messier” ships but at this point i just wish joe/joyce had never been a thing, tbh.
“Sticking my nose in other people’s relationship drama ain’t exactly my thing.”
Well it is now, and it’s largely because of Joyce’s influence that Sarah has changed and grown so much. The reason she cares, Joyce, is because of you. Oops!
Sarah is right:
– Cheating on Joe/Walky is shitty. IIRC cheating is a line Joe has never crossed and he hasn’t done anything to “deserve” being cheated on (not that you should ever wrong someone like that, but it is more understandable in some situations vs others)
Sarah is wrong:
– You don’t owe someone a romantic relationship. Relationships need to be voluntary, based on mutual interest, especially if they’re only dating, and not, like married. There’s nothing inherently immoral about breaking up with someone you’ve been seeing for a month in college because you realize you like someone else better.
I don’t know that Sarah means she has to date him because he’s good for her. Joyce asked why Sarah cares, and the answer is because he’s good for her and a good person. Joyce doesn’t owe him a relationship but she owes him better than cheating on him
Sarah is not saying that Joyce owes Joe a relationship. I don’t know why people are misreading her like this.
Joyce is asking why Sarah cares about her cheating on Joe when she was so adamant against them being together at first, and Sarah responds by saying that she had been wrong because Joe has proven himself to be a good person and a good partner to Joyce, who doesn’t deserve this level of betrayal and this lack of consideration. I don’t think she would be this upset if Joyce had just broken up with Joe to be with Dorothy! But she didn’t. She’s cheating on him with Dorothy. And that’s wrong of her to do.
It’s kind of like how no one was upset about how Asher left Jennifer. Jennifer was a shitty partner who was treating him poorly an was actively saying she would be fine if he left.
So Asher left, and didn’t come back.
Honestly it is also kind of similar to Joyce interjecting into Jacob/Raidah. We don’t see Raidah as a particularly bad partner, beyond just her regular “power and respectability above all else” vibe. But because she was essentially a villian, we don’t feel bad when Joyce acts poorly towards her.
With Asher it’s important to note that he only left after trying to confirm if he was in fact Jennifer’s boyfriend or “someone who thought he was her boyfriend” he pursued Ethan after Jennifer picked the later category confirming they weren’t a couple.
You’re right that Raidah might have been a perfectly fine girlfriend but we do also know that she seems to form all of her relationships calculatedly based on how much they will benefit her social status. So I really felt no sympathy for her when Jacob dumped her
Every human mind is a universe unto itself, no question. On a less grandiose note, this is especially true with the rise of algorithms and content feeds that create compartmentalization in people with regards to things like current events, trends, memes, anything you can think of.
It is wild how different the worlds that I and, for instance, my conservative relatives live in. I’ve had them ask me about “scandals” I’ve never even heard of, and likewise they’re completely in the dark about basic stuff that is publicly available information.
Right? Where are they getting that little bit of eisegesis? All I see is Sarah saying is to end the current partnership before starting a new one. It ain’t that they aren’t allowed to see other people, they’re free to move on, just don’t go behind people’s backs.
All relationships (healthy ones at least) are based on good-faith communication and consent between all parties involved. If Joe and/or Walky decide to open up their previously exclusive monogamous relationship, that is fine. If they decide that kind of romantic arrangement is not something they want to participate in, that’s also fine… but in order to make that decision, they need to be given all the relevant information.
You CANNOT just suddenly go full Darth-Vader-to-Lando-Calrissian “I have altered the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further.”” to someone in a co-equal partnership. If your argument wouldn’t hold up in court, you might be crossing a line.
Enthusiastic, informed consent is critical for a happy relationship.
If Joe isn’t informed he cannot give informed consent. If Joe says yes just because he thinks he deserves it or is afraid of losing Joyce otherwise, then it isn’t enthusiastic.
Like, the whole bj thing gets extra shitty when we consider that it was bookend on both sides by the affair. “Don’t deceive people and have sex with them” is a pretty low bar to cross.
And Joe actually does a good job with the whole “enthusiastic, informed consent” thing. His whole “I’m a slut” thing was precisely because he wanted people to know he wasn’t looking for anything committed. And when Liz was not enthusiastic he immediately backed off and checked in.
Personally I hope Joe learns to appreciate himself more. The objectifying misogyny was bad, not the sleeping around was not.
Actually “enthusiastic” has received some blowback.
From ace people and other people with low sex drives, for whom sex can be more of a “yeah sure” activity than an “enthusiastic” activity, but who still have the right to define consent for ourselves.
Uncoerced is fine, as long as the person you’re talking to doesn’t immediately go, “AHA, but they’re being coerced by money!”
Sex workers have been extremely clear that it’s patronizing and infantilizing and dangerous to suggest they can’t do their jobs without being sexually assaulted, and this same logic is used all the time to delegitimize their reports of having actually been sexually assaulted.
Maybe “non-coerced” is a better term. Specifically I am looking for positive desire rather than fear of consequences.
So an ace person might want to have sex because they want to express care for their partner. But if an ace person is agreeing to sex only because they are afraid that their partner will leave them, or some other negative consequence then that isn’t a healthy relationship.
And I don’t think we need to say it was assault in that situation, so long as non-coerced consent is still the goal. If you truly believe that your partner is fully willing then I don’t think that counts. But we need to be working with sincere belief, not just excuses of ignorance.
(Replying here since I ran out of replies.) To that argument I would say that there is a difference between coercion and an exchange. Coercion is the kinda stuff that the Judge Claude Frollo’s of the world do, the “sleep with me or I’ll burn you at the stake” as opposed to “here is a list of services offered along with the price for each.”
I agree *completely*, I’ve just definitely seen anti-sex work “””feminists””” argue that all sex work is coerced, and somehow uniquely, unlike all the other labor we are all doing under capitalism 100% of our enthusiastic free will lol.
from what i’ve seen, if you’ve been a dick once in this comic and you’re not specific characters, your actions will get interpreted by the absolute worst lens possible.
Which really does a disservice to those of us who actually spend the time and effort to be ACTIVE jerks. Kids these days, getting participation trophies in jerk-craft. Such a lost art.
My favorite part is where different parts of the fanbase will argue vehemently over who gets a pass and who is being perpetually interpreted in the worst light.
It kinda amazes me how many people are misunderstanding what Sarah is saying in this strip. I thought it was pretty clear what she’s saying. Dot, you’ve got it correct here.
As someone who said “Oh, no, Sarah, don’t try to fix this by maybe encouraging Joyce to go back to Joe,” which I personally have said I really really really don’t think this conversation will progress that way, here’s my concern:
For all that Sarah is right about what’s going on, because she hasn’t said anything about the protest yet, it’s not 100% clear to ME as a reader in this moment if Sarah is aware of just how far Dorothy/Joyce have gone now. If she doesn’t know about the protest kiss or the kissing at the dorm, of Joyce’s not-talk with Joe afterwards, all she knows right now is that Dorothy/Joyce have taken a cartoon watching session and turned it into a cuddle session and a whispered confession.
Now, that still sucks if you’re Joe, or someone who cares about the fallout of this situation. But it’s arguably more salvageable than a “public make out session, then some more kissing outdoors, then actively choosing to decieve Joe and have a cuddle sleepover.” IF Sarah doesn’t know all of that, and thinks it’s only hushed mumbles under the covers in a dorm, there may be a desperate part of her mind that believes Joyce can still “fix” this–even if that’s breaking up with Joe but having it be more amicable– without officially betraying Joe so badly. And clinging to that, she might try to encourage Joyce to reconsider the cuddles and whispers and work something out with Joe, because he’s good for her and doesn’t deserve a betrayal. Flawed, especially given what we know? Very much so. But possible in Sarah’s “I don’t want to see Joe hurt” emotional turmoil. It’s also possible that in a confrontation like this, Sarah finds Joe better for Joyce not because “straight relationship” but because of how Dorothy/Joyce has started with cheating and such. I think there’s a difference between Sarah liking the idea of Joyce/Joe because she sees it as a good relationship for Joyce, and Sarah demanding Joyce go back in the closet and be with a man because she owes a man a relationship.
I can obviously only speak for me, but I never meant to imply “Sarah wants Joyce back in the closet and date a man because Joe deserves a relationship” as the concern. That’s obviously not what Sarah means here in that harsh of a way, or something Sarah would ever generally advocate for. As much as she might look back and realize she was wrong about Joyce/Joe, and wish things could be better to spare Joe’s feelings, I would never think it’s about “forcing Joyce back into a straight relationship.” More… “in her desperation to spare people’s feelings, Sarah might try and corral people and relationships in a way that is ultimately not helpful, because this ship has sailed much further than she already knows.”
Sarah never said, nor implied, that Joyce owes Joe a continued relationship!!! “He’s good for you” is exemplifying how her assessment of his has changed! She made it very clear that her issue here is the cheating!!!!!
I think some of the commenters here learned a whole other version of English that I didn’t. Same vocabulary, completely different definitions. Bc that’s the only reasonable explanation for these INSANE reads. Or maybe I’m just losing my mind and need stronger meds
I agree. And (though I obviously get the humor here!) I don’t think this should be considered the Paladin position. Like Sarah is probably the central position, while Sicko is “cheat early and often” and Paladin is “Joyce must end up with Jacob, her original and one true love.”
Honestly, I have a ton of respect for this position. It is the sort that cheers when the villain shows up, not because they support the villain, but because they support the villain, but because it means things are about to get interesting.
“trash goblin” might well be following the same impulses that inspired Greek tragedies. You don’t watch them for a Happy Ending, you watch them because things go wrong, which creates drama, which creates catharsis.
That’s where I’m at. Allegedly that’s what the sickos are. Tho for me the drama is more of a healing salve for my pain over the ship I find more interesting getting burned down
What I think is very refreshing about Sarah here is that her perspective mirrors a lot of erstwhile paladins, including me: that she had JUST come around on Joyce and Joe as a couple, and she pulls this shit? Seriously?
I don’t think Joyce/Jacob has really been proposed as anyone’s position.
It is more about cheating>sapphic kisses rather than the reverse. When Joyce kisses Dorothy (again) is the reaction “How cute” or “How horrible”. Then response indicates how you are primarily interpreting the scene.
Is this a love story of Joyce and Dorothy? Overcoming obstacles to be together. Their love was forbidden but they did it anyway. Now they need to handle the consequences, but that it okay because it was worth it to be together.
Or is this a story of Joyce and Dorothy being shitty people, hurting people close to them, and maybe becoming less shitty in the process.
You are incorrect, Joyce/Jacob had plenty of supporters. It was the exact same paladins versus sickos divide back then.
Joyce/Dorothy has more shippers because it’s been a longer, slower burn. That is the major difference.
And while some people are just “cheering for queer girls regardless”, I promise you there’s also been a noticeable increase in hostility this time, especially in the form of hypersexualizing Dorothy’s interest in Joyce and painting it as predatory.
Back then sure, but I haven’t seen it crop up much in this arc. It is one thing to ship people when they are actively pursuing each other, it is another thing when that hasn’t been the focus in… years?
Sorry, I think I was trying to reply to “Sarah is probably the central position, while Sicko is “cheat early and often” and Paladin is “Joyce must end up with Jacob, her original and one true love.”” and it got disconnected.
She has made a lot of other mistakes, but generally those were naive or the result of her upbringing and trying to grow past that.
Her original homophobia was drilled into her since childhood. Objectifying Sal, or belittling Dina were rude, but also coming from a place of ignorance.
Trying to break up Jacob/Raidah was bad, but Raidah also sucks so it doesn’t feel as bad since Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Again Joyce failed to respect Jacob, his boundaries and his agency, but this once again seems like a regular “learning how to be around people” experience.
This is an instance where Joyce knows full well that what she is doing is wrong. She is fully aware that it will deeply hurt someone, and the person it will hurt is a good person, who she supposedly cares about, and to whom she has a duty of care and consideration.
But she is choosing to cheat anyway, and when confronted by it her first instinct it to minimize and deflect.
People make mistakes and do bad things, but if you are telling yourself “people make mistakes so it is okay for me to do this bad thing” then it isn’t a mistake. It is you choosing what sort of person you want to be.
I contend that even though it was done out of ignorance and not malice, and no one should hold it against her too much, Joyce indulging in Ethan’s ex-gay self-harm is the worst thing she’s ever *done*, but I think there is an argument that this is the worst she’s ever *been*. This is all of her worst flaws expressing themselves in really ugly ways one after another.
Yes! There have been many previous instances of her being a well-meaning or naive person doing bad things, but this is her being deliberately, consciously immoral, doing something she knows is wrong AND to someone she actually cares about (unlike Raidah)
“No one should hold it against her too much” Really? Nooo way man, if I had a friend like this, I would be raking them over the coals to get their ass back on track. Like Sarah here, really.
I think I misread the structure of the comment, just ignore me, I apparently can’t parse two different instances of events in one paragraph. Shame shame shame
She’s already played the gay card, think she’ll use the autistic card or the “I’m a poor repressed homeschooled ex fundie” card next to justify her actions?
I find it difficult to condemn the Joyce/Ethan phase too much because most of it was just being good friends.
If it seemed like Joyce was spending a lot of time reinforcing “gay is bad, feel bad that you’re gay” then it would have been more disturbing, but it seemed mostly like she was just engaging Ethan where he was already at.
He was fantasizing about pretending to be straight, and how that would make his life easier, and then he was the one who asked to go to church with Joyce.
I mean that doesn’t really matter at the day; she was still indulging in his self-harm and perpetuating systemic violence against a gay person. The mitigation he circumstances are just why I don’t hold it against her.
I think the “you’re perfect” comment manifests both the toxic and wholesome aspects of Joyce’s religious values.
On one hand I think Ethan should be told that being gay doesn’t make him imperfect. He is still the face of God, so to speak.
On the other hand Joyce’s perception of perfect was “Struggling with temptation to sin”. They both needed to learn that her religion’s understanding of “sin” was prejudiced.
He actively sought out a relationship with Joyce, and was not upfront about the fact that he was gay at the start.
Joyce didn’t pressure him into a relationship. She didn’t target him for being gay. He sought her out and continued to do so even after she made her homophobia extremely apparent.
That doesn’t make the homophobia okay, but Ethan knew full well what he was going into and still made that choice. A bad choice yes, but hischoice.
A key reason why he wanted a relationship with Joyce was because he felt like his sexuality was taking away his ability to have control over his own life.
It is ironic now to see him given no agency over the decisions he made.
Queer people get to make our own decisions about our relationships and how we express our sexuality. Maybe those decisions are bad decisions, but we get to make them ourselves.
We come out to who we want to when we choose. We date who we want to when we want to, so long as we are honest and they consent.
I think there’s a difference between “Joyce is entirely to blame” and “Ethan is just as much to blame as Joyce”.
I think we can place blame on Joyce and blame on homophobic society, which specifically very much includes Ethan’s own parents, and honestly leave Ethan himself out of it.
There are ways in which closeting, denying, repressing, and trying to convert yourself can hurt other people, but I don’t think Ethan hid his sexuality from Joyce for long enough for her to have a claim to injury, and he didn’t try to promote conversion therapy to any other character in the comic.
Honestly, if there’s anyone who would understand polyamory it would be Joe, but informed consent is the most important part about that kind of relationship, being poly is NOT an excuse for being a cheater.
That being said, at this point not enough has happened to be considered cheating by most metrics, MAYBE an emotional affair but since they only just realized these feelings are there if they come clean about it now they can still salvage things.
Wait, passionately kissing someone else multiple times, declaring your feelings, and non-platonically cuddling partially unclothed after doing so isn’t considered cheating???
My brain is breaking.
Like everyone’s free to have their own relationship boundaries on what they consider cheating but there’s still an objective definition. Is it the asexual in me? Is it bc people value sex more, that’s why they don’t count anything above the waist as cheating?
Quite frankly I think it is because they want to see Joyce/Dorothy. The fact that it is cheating spoils that experience so they want to deny the cheating.
No people just have different opinions. Probably more connected with if you actually been cheated on.
Like myself got called crazy and jealous because I thought my partner was acting off with a particular co-worker. They actually only ended up kissing once. The actual problem was not being honest about his feelings and treating me like I made it all up. The fact it was just a kiss wasn’t that relevant.
I really wonder if I live in an entirely different world from some of you folks, because I live in the one where “forgetting to wear your wedding ring to the hotel bar” is considered cheating by the most extreme folks, and romantic kissing is definitely always over the line.
I’ve said this many times in response to these comments but while I can only speak for myself, it’s not that we didn’t think the writing was going to address it, but rather a reaction to the community comments
Because I’m a data nerd, I’m very curious about the demographics of the DoA comment section so I put together my own survey, if anyone wants to participate just for fun/science
Also… because I forgot to mention it in the first post, any chance we the audience will get to see the final results of this homemade survey of yours? For the other data geeks in the room?
It would definitely be a shame if a bunch of screaming infants took another survey as an excuse to publish their antisemitic manifesto instead of staying on topic, yes.
Wack’d made a similar survey a little while ago, and a bunch of self-entitled cockweasels used the “fill in your answer here” boxes to basically shriek about problems they had with the comments section and how Israel/Gaza/etc. was (or wasn’t) portrayed in the comic, because they have less self-control than an actual infant and aren’t intelligent enough to know which way to point their uncontrollable rage.
I’m not informed enough about Israel to answer that question with any confidence. I’m playing it safe and assuming at least some of them were being antisemitic, though. If you want to know what was being specifically said at that time, you can search through the archive to find it, but I’m not going to.
Unfortunately it often goes hand in hand. Israel deserves to be criticized but a lot of people can’t understand nuance enough and are also completely ignorant about the history of Israel and the Jewish diaspora that their “criticism” ends up just being “anti Israel existing” rather than “anti Israel committing genocide”. Of course, it really depends on what was being said, but it’s a safe bet that there was some overlap. That’s my personal take as a Jewish person who hates Israel’s governments actions but gets very upset and frustrated with how I see people talk about it
As another Jewish person, it is not prima facie antisemitic to desire the cessation of the existence of the State of Israel. The Israeli state is not the Jewish people.
Dot, I feel that your stance on Israel is coming from a place of privilege. Try telling that to the Beta Yisraelim that had to be airlifted out of ethopia to flee genocide.
In a kind of abstract way it doesn’t. In practice, it’s hard to see any way to end the existence of the State of Israel that doesn’t involve brutal ethnic cleansing.
I guess a hypothetical “one state solution” might qualify, but there’s basically no chance of that either.
Dot I used to feel exactly the same and consider myself an anti-zionist but where would the Israeli people go if the state of Israel was abolished? Most Israelis have lived there for generations now, and have no other ancestral Homeland to return to the way European immigrant descendants in America do, because their homes were taken from them during world war II and have now had other families living in them from generations who just as equally don’t deserve to have those homes taken away from them now. Abolishing Israel would require some other country to be willing to adopt all of the Israelis as citizens and most countries, even America, aren’t so keen on Jews that they would be willing to do that.
Unless you just mean that Israel should exist but not as a religious ethnostate, which I am completely in agreement with
I mean, they wouldn’t need to go anywhere. Changing/reforming the state of Israel to not be exclusionary doesn’t mean people need to leave.
I’ve talked to a lot of Zionists and a lot of anti-Zionist. I’ve yet to see any anti-Zionist say Israeli’s should be forced to leave. Mostly it seems like a demon conjured up by the pro-Israel crowd to make anti-Zionism seem inhumane.
Right now Israel has a Law of Return. It is open to immigration as long as the immigrants are Jewish. It seems like an easy step would be to simply expand this to include Palestinians. Right of Return achieved.
Thanks for the explanation. I guess I’ve been making an incorrect assumption about what people mean when they say abolish Israel
That said it still makes me really uncomfortable when people say things like “globalize the intifada” since that phase is deeply rooted to violent attacks on Jewish civilians
Yeah, this honestly seems like the most brain-dead obvious answer to it all. No need to redraw lines or even change the stationary, just like, stop bombing and starving people.
Odo, we’re not making those people up. Think about it. You’ve only talked to the sort of people who you’re already in contact about this stuff. That’s one hell of a selection bias!
It says good things about you, that you would surround yourself with good people who wouldn’t have those views as anti-zionists. I felt insulted at first, but you’re really just coming from a place of innocent naivete.
To Erica: agreeeeed @ Israel just stop it already??
@Odo: That’s a pipe dream though. Israel would never do it and the people they’d be admitting wouldn’t live peacefully. There’s too much blood, too much anger and hate. And too much religion on both sides.
And the two sides would be far too close in numbers – in any kind of democratic society they’d be constantly vying for power and control.
I’d fully agree that the creation of Israel shouldn’t have happened, but it’s there now and there’s no way to undo do it that isn’t horrific.
@Joy these would be the Beta Yisraelim Israel sterilized, yes? Or how about when Israel stole children from Yemenite Jews? What about when they banned Yiddish for decades?
I looked into it. Some of them might have been given birth control injections without their consent. It’s shitty if so, but not a permanent sterilization nor a government policy.
I’d be mad at you for misleading me, but you must’ve been mislead yourself. I’d hate Israel too if I believed all of this without checking if it was real. (Currently playing gravitar-roulette)
Good call on not adding any big text boxes. The last survey was apparently very hard to read through for Wack’d because a lot of folks vented their frustrations about either the comment section or the comic directly into Wack’d ear. I’m glad that won’t happen to you!
It’s limited to 25 replies on the free trial. I’m currently arguing with survey monkey to try to haggle a more reasonable price than $90 to get the full results 😅
Anyways, Joyce should double down and Sarah should get increasingly more involved in her love life, creating a game of cat and mouse as Sarah tries to get Joyce to be clear with Joe and Joyce makes out with even more people
I’ve been yelled at for expressing that it’d be very realistic for the entire friend group to start pushing Joyce and Dorothy to the side a bit over this nonsense…
…but if that’s what people want to see, having Joyce verbalize that kind of feeling is a GREAT way to start the process.
Joyce can do whatever she wants but her friends are certainly allowed to have opinions about it. And would you rather have a friend talk to you about the fact they’re upset with you and want you do the right thing, or just stop being your friend because they’re disgusted with your actions but it’s none of their business so they just back out of the friendship?
Also I would HOPE that a friend of mine would stand up for me if my partner (who was also their friend) was cheating on me, and not just say “none of my business!”
Those I call my truest friends are those who tell me when I’m about to do something stupid or call me out when I’m being ridiculous (or an asshole.) My advice to everyone is to get yourself these kinds of friends if you do not have them already. They are worth their weight in gold-plated diamond.
I have noticed an interesting increase in people thinking that to be friends with someone means that you do NOT push back on their bad behavior because “well I can’t control what they do”. I wonder if it’s a reaction to the more extreme instances of such a thing, such as when people try to cancel each other, so people swing into the other end of the behavior to be like “hey I don’t get involved with what they do it’s not my place to say”. The thing about friendship IS balancing respecting your friend’s choices while also being willing to tell them “hey I don’t think you should do this thing”.
Joyce is a grown woman and she can date whoever she wishes but Sarah is also allowed to think that Joyce cheating on her boyfriend is an upsetting thing to do. She wouldn’t be Sarah(or at least she wouldn’t be the version of Sarah she is now, being close friends and basically sisters with Joyce) if she just shrugged and said “oh well not my business”.
Which doesn’t have to mean that’s where Astariel is coming from, but as a wider trend I’m sure.
There’s a difference between “curate your social media experience” and “it’s fine to block someone for just being kind of annoying” and…… “friends are people with whom you agree on everything all the time”.
Wow sarah cant believe you’re a puritan relationship paladin who hates messy imperfect women bc you’re projecting your own cheating trauma onto them :/ (sarcasm)
REALLY feels like a lot of people in today’s comment section have never had meaningful relationships with friends, if somehow “telling your friend and roommate that cheating on their partner, both of whom you care about, is a bad thing to do to them” puts Sarah in the wrong here
Like, what is there to even be mad about here? “Get your hands off of each other”? I think that’s a reasonable request when you find out your roommate is making out w someone on your TOP BUNK in your shared room without telling you first – that’s like, roommate manners 101.
Right? Isn’t that the whole idea behind the informal “sock on the doorknob” system? The acknowledgement that this is a shared space, and as such, allowing for individual lifestyles should also come with a healthy dose of decorum and respect for each others’ personal boundaries?
This is really insensitive to the cognitohazard demographic. Some of us are doing our best to maintain friendships even when one of us literally cannot perceive or acknowledge the other without dissolving into brownsauce.
I think the way the Relationship Paladins vs Sickos thing has evolved over time is fascinating.
Like, the original post defined Relationship Paladins as “Dorothy and Joyce need to properly break up with their boyfriends before going any further” (as in, before they kissed at the protest). I’d wager the vast majority of people who voted for that option would say we’re WAY passed that point ~ a month on.
At this point, RPs are here to see the fallout as everything blows up in Joyce and Dorothy’s face, which is the orignal stated reason why Sickos wanted this plotline to happen.
At this point, people on both sides of the argument as defined in the original post are on basically the same page in terms of where they want the story to go, and are both fighting the secret 3rd group, “People who want Dorothy/Joyce to get together with no/minimal negative consequences”.
Yet the original terms are still being used, almost completely divorced from their original definition, due to a mix of rapidly developed factionalism and confusion as to what the poll terms meant from people who didn’t read the original post.
I think there are actually several camps. Here’s how I would define them:
– Trash Goblins: Here for the Drama
– Paladins: Want the cheating to be framed as exclusively bad, and to not be brushed aside. Upset when other people frame the cheating as cute/romantic/or just a stumbling block to the OTP.
– Wholesome Vanilla Latte: Want people in the comic to be good, decent people. Do not want cheating in the comic because it is upsetting.
– Shippers: Are either upset or happy because they want Joe/Joyce or Joe/Dorothy.
– Queer rep: Love to see any queer relationship. Upset by homophobes disliking Joyce/Dorothy because it is queer.
– Poly Party: Want more polyamorous representation. Sometimes upset when people assume monogamy for Joe/Joyce. Disappointed the poly possibility (the polybility) isn’t being explored.
– Monogamy Lawyers: Deny there was cheating because of a lack of formal monogamy contract.
– Mess Muppets: Excuse the cheating because people can be messy.
I don’t think it has ever really been about consequences, it has been about framing. Are the consequences “the price we pay for love” or will we see Joyce and Dorothy truly regret cheating.
In the original kiss, Willis added in a bunch of Wedding imagery, and had Jocelyn looking on approvingly. This framing says the most important part of this scene is how romantic it is, and good for them for demonstrating their love.
See, I don’t think that’s what the framing was communicating.
I think the framing was communicating that Joyce and Dorothy feel that way.
I’ve been arguing for like two weeks now that I think folks were jumping the gun to think Willis’s framing was going to valorize cheating.
I’ll certainly concede that so far the narrative has been ambiguous on that point, but I absolutely think Sarah is about to obliterate Joyce’s romantic rationalizations, where what they’re doing is fine because true love conquers all.
And then I kind of think Joyce and Dorothy are going to keep being a couple anyway, but without the illusion that what they have is a storybook story. It’s still as real as the feelings they feel, but unlike The Princess-Bride, neither of the girls is being saved from a Prince Humperdink.
They’re just hurting people, and they need to acknowledge that and tell the boys and let the boys have their own feelings about this.
The King Killer Chronicles are told from the perspective of Kvothe, a man, and for most of the story a teen.
The story is also, unfortunately, kind of sexist. It has a tendency for every woman who isn’t old/a child to be beautiful and alluring. Kvothe compares women to objects alarmingly often, and there is a certain period where is seems like “and then he was super sex and had a lot of sex”.
At the same time the story also explicitly calls out sexist institutions in the world. It explicitly points to different experiences based on gender, and gender discrimination. Furthermore it frequently raises questions around who is telling a story and what stories are not being told.
Some people defend the series saying “it is being told from the perspective of a teenage boy”… but for me that doesn’t carry much weight. The author chose to write it from that perspective, so if that ends up reinforcing sexist tropes then that is still ultimately a problem with the book.
I have some hope that the sexism will be resolved, but only because I hope it will explicitly challenge the fact that it is being told by Kvothe. Since Kvothe is the narrator there is some room to set up an unreliable narrator that can then be critiqued.
Can the same happen with Dumbing of Age? Maybe, but I don’t see how. This story isn’t being narrated to us by Joyce/Dorothy. We assume the perspective of a nameless observer.
Willis chose to emphasize the romance and cuteness repeatedly. That was the first thing communicated to us, and having “consequences” later on doesn’t change that.
I don’t think Willis needs to, or is trying to, “make up” for showing us Joyce and Dorothy being happy earlier by showing consequences now.
I think they were conveying “Joyce and Dorothy are happy”, not “cheating is awesome”.
I think what they are now conveying is “even though this has made Joyce and Dorothy happy, it’s still wrong of them to hurt their boyfriends”.
These aren’t contradictory. The comic strip doesn’t have to have been clearly from Joyce and Dorothy’s POV, and it’s not that previous strips were a failed attempt at conveying an unreliable narrator.
They reliably and accurately conveyed Joyce and Dorothy being happy, then being anxious, then being happy, then being guilty, then being happy. And now this strip is reliably and accurately conveying Joyce and Dorothy being caught.
If in the next few strips, Joyce effectively argues Sarah around to agreeing that actually it’s fine that she’s cheating on Joe right now, then you’ll have more of a leg to stand on regarding Willis’s message.
I will add that lots of people are more than one. For example, you’ve had Shippers mingled in with Relationship Paladins (shippers of both ships*, in fact) — people who don’t like the cheating, but who would still like to see this end in regret and penance for Joyce, where she goes back to Joe.
* by this I mean: some of the relationship paladins actually shipped Joyce/Dorothy, and either didn’t want it to start in cheating because they think starting that way will doom the ship, or were so turned off (metaphorically) by the cheating that they stopped liking the ship.
Poly Party is two subcamps, too:
– I am hopeful, I think this could be good, messy poly representation!
– I am disappointed, because I think the cheating ruined the poly possibility!
— I want poly representation, but I DON’T want it to be messy.
(This is fair! It doesn’t invalidate wanting messy poly, but we are all at different points on our journey. There isn’t exactly a ton of poly rep period, so I understand feeling like it needs to be perfect.)
Oh absolutely,
A great example of what happens when you force a wide range of opinions into arbitrary camps. Probably says a lot about society or something.
But a terrible mistake wrt what its done to the comments section.
I still think there’s a significant distinction between people who want mess, but see it as a natural consequence of an emotionally messy situation, versus people who want to see Joyce and Dorothy punished and condemned for discovering their feelings for each other in an imperfect way.
I totally agree there’s a distinction, but I also know that as a person in Group A there were several folks trying to cram me into Group B, possibly because I make no bones about “part of the emotional mess is that people tend to dislike cheaters regardless of their reasoning, and basically every friend group I knew in college pushed cheaters to the perhiphery/outside, especially when the cheated-upon person was also in the group.”
FINALLY THE SPICE. WE’VE BEEN DROWNING IN UNFLAVORED SYRUP
(I refuse to call these two vanilla, vanilla is a hard to cultivate and expensive ingredient that can create some of the strongest, most beautiful flavors you’ve ever tasted and I will never forgive the world for making it synonymous with boring)
Cards on the table here, cards on the table, I am refusing to acknowledge any other discussions going on, but one of these people reasons I’m pulling so hard for the Sacred Polycule of all three goobers Joe/Joyce/Dorothy related is that by themselves, Joe/Joyce and Joyrothy are DOMESTIC as FUCK.
And, and I know I’m gonna Piss Off the “ooh I hope jakey dies” yuri contingent here BUT I AM RIGHT: Joyrothy is actively the *more boring* of those two couples once you take away the queer yearning! Once they’re together they’re a saccharine mess, and that’s cute and all, but it’s been proven that the people want more, especially with this whole explosive cheating genesis, if they immediately became The Pharmacist And Her Wife, Junior Versions it would feel like wasted potential/bad people winning/a third thing that stinks! And you can argue they wouldn’t, but like, look at them, they’re way too fucking equilibriumed up and happy! They make Dina and Becky look dramatic!
I’m not saying I want all toxic yuri, dear God no, no Billie/Ruth reenactments for the silly bi blondes, but yeah, they need the spice! Joe and Joyce also needed the spice! That’s why you make a triangle, is for the spice!!! It keeps things fucked up and weird!!!!
Y’know, I’ll tentatively agree with you in that I thought Joe/Joyce had a fair bit of good not-boring by rooting around in the collective detritus of their respective upbringing suckiness, and they were somewhat uniquely positioned to be foils for each other in that regard.
They would have eventually got over it and settled into a cozy slipshine-filled domesticity, but I really wish we’d got at least a few more in-timeline weeks of them sorting out Joyce’s sexual hangups and Joe’s emotional ones first.
Vanilla’s a good flavor! I think it only gets shit on for being generic because vanilla soft serve ice cream is typically white and diluted to the point of mostly tasting like sugar. And then the next layer of my theory is, because it’s white, and Americans are fucking racist in extra stupid ways, that makes it The Default™ to a lot of people. I’m also workshopping a way to involve the super mild flavor levels being connected to that maniac who decided American food was too stimulating and it was making everyone jack off constantly so he invented corn flakes about it, but I haven’t got a through line figured out yet.
If people are going to rightfully hold Joyce and Dorothy accountable for being distracted and doing things in a messy, unnecessarily hurtful way, then they need to hold Sarah to the same standards. Her closest friend, a recovering fundamentalist who had previously only ever identified as straight, came out to her. And she was too caught up in her newfound understanding that Joe is currently not awful to realize that she was using words like “wrong” and suggesting Joyce needs to stay with a man. For all she (or we) know, Joyce isn’t bi/pan but rather a lesbian.
Given the nuances of the situation, I completely understand why she did what she did. Her heart was in the right place, and she can earn forgiveness and understanding for a less-than-ideal response to Joyce’s inconveniently timed personal epiphany. I just hope the people cheering Sarah on eventually extend the same understanding to Joyce and Dorothy.
I agree that that’s not what she intended. But communication is more than what you intend to say, or even the precise words you use to say it. Communication is understanding the headspace of the person you’re speaking to. And communicating with friends means sometimes postponing what you want to say in favor of what they need in the moment.
If one of your closest friends was snooping in their parent’s phone and found out they were adopted, are you going to immediately yell at them for the betrayal of privacy? Or are you going to save the lecture for later, and give them support for a huge personal revelation?
Sarah’s closest friend, who less than a year prior believed that gay people would burn in hell, came out to her. Whether Sarah thinks that’s a big deal or not, she should understand that Joyce will think it’s a big deal. And Sarah’s immediate response was an angry lecture. Did Joyce deserve that lecture? Yes… eventually. When she was ready to hear it, and after Sarah could be certain that she wasn’t going to be misunderstood.
In a month, no one will remember the exact words Sarah used and in which order. No one will care that Joyce kissed Dorothy 23 times before breaking up with Joe 23 instead of 3. No one will care that Joyce broke Joe’s heart at 9am instead of 7am. But Joyce *is* going to remember that when she needed support, she didn’t get it.
She isn’t saying “being gay is wrong” she is saying “cheating is wrong”. She isn’t saying “stay with Joe” she is saying “break up with Joe before making out with Dorothy”.
“Being distracted and being messy” is a great way to minimize that they have been repeatedly and conciously making shitty decisions.
Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but if you choose to do bad things because “I can be messy, that’s okay” you are choosing what sort of person you want to be.
If you are someone who wants to treat others kindly. If you want to be honest and compassionate. If you actually want to do good things then you won’t choose to be shitty. People choose to be shitty when they want to and can find a way to excuse it.
To be fair, understanding that discovering you’re queer and in love with your best friend can be emotionally messy – and might actually be more significant than a week-old relationship – is apparently much harder than I’d previously thought, based on this comment section.
Significant or not, messy or not, even if I spot them the kiss I would argue that it’s pretty easy to decide to tell your boyfriend about it before you, y’know, go down on him instead.
What is with some of you interpreting things in this comic that aren’t actually happening? Sarah is criticizing Joyce and Dorothy for cheating, not for coming out as bi. She wants Joyce to properly break up with Joe instead of continuing cheating on him, and she’s admitted she was wrong about Joe and that he was a good boyfriend who deserves better than how Joyce is behaving. I feel like some people are reading an entirely different comic than what I’m reading.
So for realsies I agree with Sarah about Joe being good for Joyce. Those two were good *together.* Joyce + Dorothy is cute and I love my wlw stuff but… Joe + Joyce they grow together.
Funny enough, I don’t know that Sarah is right that Joe is good for Joyce(all of the positive changes in her have been largely Joe-neutral I think, but I could be wrong), but Joyce has definitely been good for Joe.
I do think Joe has been a good, patient boyfriend — but a.) that should be the baseline standard, any partner should do at least that much!, and b.) he didn’t do it just for her, he very much did everything he’s done because that’s also what he wanted.
I hope no one sees Joe as having sacrificed tremendously in this relationship, because he hasn’t. That the two of them haven’t had sex yet has absolutely been a mutual decision, and I think Joe would have been just as gun-shy no matter who he was with after his last experience with Liz. Even if he’d tried to have a one-night stand with Roz, someone he knows is explicitly down for one-night stands, I think he would have choked a bit.
There’s real anxiety there that I hope he gets to deal with, and one of the things I haven’t loved about his relationship with Joyce is how much she clearly still thinks of all of this in the fundie terms she was raised with: that she’s the one who “needs” to be the barrier, and that the second she says yes, it’s obviously full speed ahead.
I don’t blame her for thinking that way? It’s how she was raised and it represents significant trauma.
But that she still felt that way right up until the moment of almost PIV sex tells me that she and Joe haven’t been communicating very well. He either isn’t telling her about his anxieties, or she isn’t hearing them, because they’re clearly there.
I think he has been, but it’s harder to clock because he’s been the brakes, and a lot of it feels very “Well yeah, that’s just what a good person would do” but amped higher then the average.
In a comic of relationship disasters, Joe has been the most considerate and not-garbage Significant Other across the comic, barring Dina & Tony.
Nothing bad has come out of Sal yet… I think? Becky has been a pretty good partner to Dina.
So far we’ve had Walky Drama (Dorothy, Amber, Lucy), Amber/Amazigirl Drama (Danny, Walky), Jennifer/Ruth Drama (they are the drama) with a bit of Jason and Alice on the side, and Joyce Drama (Ethan, Jacob, Joe, Dorothy).
Love this for two reasons. 1) Sarah’s telling it like it is right to Joyce’s face, telling her she’s wrong in this, as a good friend would. Looking forward to Joyce’s reaction to this. And Dorothy’s. 2) Seems to me that Sarah’s kinda falling for this new dependable and honest 1woman Joe?
The amount of people reading this as Sarah telling Joyce she should stay with Joe and not that he didnt do anything to deserve being cheated on and she was wrong about him is wild
Right? She wanted Joyce to BREAK UP with Joe, not CHEAT on Joe. Even if her stance on Joe being a good guy has changed, and she wouldn’t want them to break up NOW? I doubt she’d EVER be down for Joyce *not* breaking up with him before she started a relationship with anyone else.
Yeah, it’s weirding me out how many people are completely misreading this strip, particularly the last 2-3 panels. Feels like some folks in the comments are in a completely different reality than me.
You say misreading, then you say different reading. So are people allowed their own opinion, or is their personal opinion simply ‘wrong if it isn’t the same as yours?
this would never happen in this comic because Willis seems loath to make known characters bigots unless their name is Mary, but it would be a fascinating (and very tragic) turn of events if this made Joe go BACK to his pick up artist persona and double down on it.
I’ve witnessed this happen in real life, obviously it’s not a one-to-one match to this fictional couple, but the guy in question turned into a misogynist who blamed all women for being b-words and hypergamists (using other words of course). I don’t know if he was like just because of the break up or if this became his new personality, because I stopped speaking to him during this period.
I don’t want this to happen because I like Joe and his development a lot; but if we’re doing drama for the love of drama, I feel like it would make sense.
Narratively though, I would think it would be unsatisfying. Sure, it does happen all the time. People relapse into old habits when they hit bumps in the road… but that’s kind of why it would be boring to read, for me at least.
Let this moment be one of growth and triumph for Joe. Let it be him learning to be this better man not just for Joyce, not just out of fear of becoming his dad, but a choice for himself to be his best self.
I still maintain the most narratively satisfying way this resolves for Joe is for him to hear Joyce lay it all out, and respond with something like “Okay, so I listened to you preach at me about my moral failings, fixed myself, and took a huge chance on my fears coming true to date you, and now this is what you do after a week? Good. Luck. With. That.” and storms off with his head held high to lift weights until he pukes and/or some other lady from the secondary cast comes to console him on the shit he just went through.
I just really want to see Joe thrive because I sympathize with that “fear you’re doomed to turn out like your father” stuff, and I wanna see him conquer it. Plus it’s nice seeing someone who was almost a one-note joke character evolve into someone complicated and interesting to read about.
Yeah, I went kinda through a Joyce-ish arc and a Joe-ish arc in my college experience, and now that Joyce has gone past one of my own bright lines (although not as stupid as the stupidest time I was ever cheated on), I’m kinda relying on Joe getting over his stupid misogynist era and ending up the kinda guy I’d invite to join my fraternity for me to feel like I identify with someone here.
(continuing my thoughts from the above comment) It would make more sense than a rando on wheels naming himself after a violent hate group and everyone reacting as if he was a 60’s batman villain and not someone who might acquire a machine gun and specifically target women who are trying to get a higher education like Marc Lépine or Elliot Rodger.
Like I UNDERSTAND the impulse of saying all incels are clown doofuses who should not be taken seriously, but we could say the same thing about the mentality of white supremacists and still acknowledge that want to have committed hate crimes and mass murders.
I don’t think Joe would ever become an incel, but pick up artists and men’s rights activists are part of a Venn diagram that overlaps dangerously with incel rhetoric. It’s about the entitlement to women’s bodies and attention, it’s about toxic masculinity and it’s about refusing to see women as human beings. I don’t want Joe to backslide into that culture, so I guess the break up will be a test of his character to see if he has truly grown or if he gets seduces back into the culture of objectifying women. I have faith in Joe, I don’t think he will fall, but there’s the chance he might.
Incredibly spirited comments today. Lots o good stuff.
Is it just me or does Sarah seem very distraught? Face transforms gradually though the panels ending with the short lines at the bottom of the eyes that some artists use to show the eyes welling up. tomorrow should be good. Mr. Willis is very good at leaving the situation ambiguous.
Honestly I’ve mainly been checking in to see how amber/amazigirl is doing because I’m not super invested in the recent plot developments. I feel like I’m not… the type of person who really enjoys the way that the recent arcs are written. Like if it was a poor writing thing I’d just say that, but its more like its meant to appeal in ways that I don’t personally find appealing, if that makes sense? WRT relationship drama.
I think I’ve also talked about how there was like basically 0 nuance about the pro palestine protests thing and 0 mentions of how they related to campus antisemitism and like not one person got passive aggressive towards dorothy and joe about them being jewish and presumably having ties to israel, or that they have to personally denounce israel or be seen as awful people in ways that a non jewish person wouldn’t be… and bla bla bla it feels like the jews aren’t really written as jewish people so much as people who happen to have jewish heritage etc… etc. It just– like– I don’t know. The anti-war stuff is a cause I believe in but feel like I can’t participate in because I don’t want to be bigoted against myself, and so many people who participate in it are super bigoted in ways that they absorb from the movement, and not of this is being acknowledged by the plot that presents it as a simple good people vs bad people for the most part. Like let’s pretend that people camping in front of a college dorm doesn’t, like, pose any danger to women I guess. As an asthmatic person though I hate tear gas so much…
Like the stormfront movement recruits at pro palestine protests for a reason. There are a bunch of non palestinians who will hiel hitler while holding up the palestine flag even. I want to clarify that its non palestinians, and I don’t think Palestinians have really done anything bad to me on a personal basis as an individual, unlike their PERFORMATIVE allies, lol.
It’s kinda funny, like I identify as zionist but my Palestinian and anti zionist jewish friends think I don’t count as a zionist because of what my actual political views are, and that’s just wrong to me. I simply don’t agree with the anti-semitic redefining of what zionism means. I should show up to protest with a “zionists against colonialism” sign, I think. I worry it’ll piss everybody off. Kinda wanna do it anyway.
I mean, really, it was indigenous land back with guns.
Generally in Israel/Palestine contexts I find calls for nuance always stop just as soon as we get back to supporting Israel. This isn’t an accusation towards you, just what I have observed in general.
And quite frankly I am not interested in painting the Palestine protests as a “mixed bag” because there are already a bunch of people trying to demonize the protests every way they can. Israel has been pushing the “anti-Zionists are antisemites” schtick for decades.
“it was indigenous land back with guns”
Not at all.
First of all “with guns” is a pretty big difference.
Second of all Zionism was intent to take the land from an indigenous people. Palestinians are indigenous. This “the Arabs are the real colonizers” is nonsense considering the Arabization of the levant took place over centuries where the local people slowly came to identify with their conquerers. It would be like saying French people colonized France because they speak a romance language instead of Gaulish.
Thirdly the “land back” movement generally relies on voluntary transfer of publicly owned land. This is very different from Land Acquisition companies useing western capital to purchase land for foreign land owners, under British colonial laws, and evict all the Palestinian tenants.
People are successfully demonizing the protests because they are a mixed bag. The protests same protests I want to participate in, but feel unsafe in, because of the “mixed bag,” thing where people who hate jews show up to protest, not because they care about palestine, but because they hate jews, hate israel, and do side with terrorists, and some of these people are genuinely leftist identifying. (I don’t really consider them leftist.)
It feels like you’re looking past reality in favor of, like, academic moralizing?
Zionism is the reason why ethiopian jews got airlifted into israel when ethiopia started ethnically cleansing. Like, yeah, zionism is also a mixed bag, which is why its getting successfully demonized.
Frankly, though, the idea that indigenous land back has to be voluntary and that indigenous people can’t take it back is itself colonial. I don’t agree.
I forgot to say that me being anti genocide is specifically why I’m in favor of Israel continuing to exist and that I think that its a good thing that the modern state of Israel was founded, even if it was messy and even though people got hurt and died. Being anti genocide is why I consider myself to be a Zionist.
War is bad, statistically speaking Israel’s war conduct has been on the low side for civilian casualties. I want to also talk about, like, Hindu nationalism as a bad thing, or muslim fundamentalism as a bad thing, or like, the myanmar republic civil war because of the military general’s coup when the president was assassinated, or like literally any world politics that isn’t Israel, sometimes? It’s always about Israel though, and I genuinely think that it wouldn’t get that much more attention than the rest of the world if it weren’t for jew hate, if I’m being honest.
Jews never came to identify with their conquerors.
I’m still pro palestine cause I have palestinian friends and I want their families to be safe, so I want the war to end. It’s just… the arguments that non palestians give to me online usually fall completely flat, including yours… there’s casual antisemitism and colonizer logic embedded in your argument here on a personal basis! That sort of thing is a big part of why I left the pro palestine movement, before I got to know palestinians personally and rejoined it!
I think that ditching the antisemitism would allow the movement to become more accepted in the main stream, and would cause it to stop being demonized so readily…
no more “from the river to the sea”
no more calls for the dissolution of Israel (which would very much result in genocide against the jews)
I’m choosing to be a pro palestine moderate, and I think that being radically pro palestine is an ineffective way to be pro palestine. I’ve been involved in activism enough to know that propaganda just teaches you not to think, and that staying angry all the time isn’t “praxis,” and doesn’t do anything and just leaves you exhausted and miserable and people won’t like you. There’s so much unnecessary pretense in leftist spaces, and there’s so many people who just decide that their bigotry doesn’t count as bigotry, left wing or right wing. Asexuals know what I’m talking about here, as do polyamorous people. (no, a guy having two girlfriends isn’t misogyny. You know?)
People are demonizing the protests because supporting Palestinian liberation conflicts with the U.S. military interests.
People are demonizing the protests because the protests are critical of Israel, and many people refuse to accept that taking over a foreign land and ethnically cleansing the population was wrong.
The protests are not a mixed bag except in the sense that they don’t serve the interests of people in power (not “Jews”, rather the White Christien supremecist imperial hegemony that is the U.S.).
And quite frankly I don’t trust reports of antisemitism coming from a lot of sources anymore because they fail to differentiate between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Which isn’t to say antisemitism doesn’t exist, just to point out how the endless conflation of Israel and Jews actively hinders the fight against antisemitism.
I am sure there are antisemites who try to disguise their antisemitism as anti-Zionism. Antisemites will disguise their hatred as whatever they can. Antisemites also disguise their bigotry as class conciousness, but that doesn’t mean I think protests for a fair wage are a “mixed bag”.
And no, the Palestine protests do not need to ditch the antisemitism because it was never part of the movement to begin with. The movement was responding to the very real, ongoing oppression of Palestinians by the state of Israel.
—
Zionism was not a “land back” movement because it was taking land from an indigenous population, not from a colonizer. Please stop it with the racist and offensive lie that Palestinians are the “real colonizers”.
—
And Israel wouldn’t get so much attention if it weren’t funded and supported by western powers. You want to compare Israel to Myanmar? Then let’s treat Israel like Myanmar. We don’t sell the Tatmadaw bombs, we sanction them.
Honestly, while I agree with your points, I think it’s absolutely worth pointing out that while Israel was built on land Palestinians are indigenous to, it was the Western Colonial powers France and Britain that controlled that part of the world prior to its establishment. The displacement of Palestinians to make room for Jewish folks was started by a third party.
It’s part of why the whole situation is such a gigantic clusterfuck, it’s one of the most complicated geopolitical situations in history.
As a white guy with dark hair from New Jersey, it absolutely made me laugh because tons of people have assumed I’m Jewish and so many of my friends are as well.
It depends on the Jewish person. At some point in history we are all descended from people in Africa.
But maybe after 2000 years your desire to return to the land your great, great, great*60 grandmother used to live in is less important than the rights of the local indigenous population to govern themselves.
Yeah like the Israel defined by the united nations and other governments of the world isn’t really a safe haven for us Jews, and it’s not really a democracy like white people think it is
They merely fall back on supporting it cuz they realize they have basically ZERO in terms of an actual pro-Jewish praxis
I dont want some “Jewish reservation” I could be shoved into so the rest of the world can continue to be hateful of us, I want the world to be less hateful.
The pithy answer is “Eastern Europe” since that’s where the majority of Ashkenazi folks were from.
But the real answer is that I didn’t say anything about where Jewish folks are from, merely that Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine. Multiple ethnic groups can he indigenous to the same part of the world, and it is irrefutable that many Palestinian folks were forced to move as a result of the creation of Israel.
But at the same time Zionist organizations lobbied for Britain to impose its rule over Palestine. If not for Zionism I imagine Britain at least would have let Palestine go the same route as Jordan and get independence under a British aligned ruler.
Furthermore Zionism established the Land Acquisition companies that sought to purchase land from absentee landlords, evict the local Palestinian tenants and replace them with people of the desired ethnicity. Beyond just basic class issues, and ethnic discrimination, this represented a fundamental change in what land ownership meant. It changed from an essentially feudal system of occasional rent collection, to people being forced out by British guns. Beyond this there were also efforts to sue to get public lands privatized on the grounds that they "weren't cultivated" by the standards of the colonial ruler.
Britain was certainly essential to the project of Zionism, and in many ways supported it, but Britain also spent a lot of time trying to play both sides for its own benefit. I will happily condemn Britain, but I also think we need to condemn Zionism. It is wild to look at a land and say "yeah, that should be ours" without any consideration for the local people. In addition it is deeply immoral to take the plight of refugees and use it to support a ethnonationalistic campaign of demographic engineering.
See, “forced out by British guns” is kind of my key point there. Again, it’s such a goddamned complicated issue as proved by everything you just talked about, but at the end of the day, it was British soldiers and British rifles that enforced the decisions. Zionists were not an invading army, and that’s how your posting comes across.
If they guns are acting on my behalf, at my request, then I think saying they are “not my guns” is a bit meaningless.
Palestinians wouldn’t have been evicted without Zionism. There wouldn’t have been foreign land purchases like there were without Zionist organizations.
Britain did not have the goal of changing the demographics of Palestine, that goal came from Zionism.
Dang it, I was coming here to chuckle because I am aggressively bored with Amazi-Girl’s superhero antics taking away from what is otherwise a fairly grounded comedy strip
But I really, *really* don’t have the spoons to debate about the protests.
As a Palestinian with Jewish family and friends who are capable of differentiating zionism and antisemitism…. This take on it misses the point so hard I’m genuinely astounded. But why did you feel the need to start this debate in a comic strip AFTER the related arc?
Because I was taking a break from the comic during the arc.
I didn’t miss the point (of the comic) I just don’t really agree with some of the points being made. Or, rather, I think the comic implies things that aren’t true through the combination of what it chooses to portray and what it chooses not to portray.
That would be a pretty unhealthy start to a poly relationship. Those are the sort of boundaries (or lack of) that partners should set at the beginning.
I thought dating usually doesn’t involve, like, rigid courtship arrangements? I don’t know. I’m usually pretty up front about how I don’t do monogamy, but it’s, like, not the first thing I tell someone on a date…?
Huh, most people I date know I’m poly/ENM before we even GO on a date while we’re still in the “chatting to determine if we want to date” process.
Also, I think there’s a strong difference between “date” and “using the word boyfriend/girlfriend”, which our characters here have done, in terms of expectations.
I’ve said this before, Polyamory would never work between Joyce, Dorothy, Walky, and Joe. Even if three of the four agreed to it, Dotty’s too jealous to share Joyce with anyone, and she’d be actively trying to push Joe out of the picture entirely.
Yeah like, Joyce very often soberingly reminds us that excessive restriction and institutional religious guilt/fear is no substitute for an actual moral compass.
Hence why we go out of our way not to legitimize so-called “traditional values” — because clearly these are values which do not lead to functioning people or functioning society. 👀
According to Joyce, she had “sex” with Dorothy before Joyce was going out with Joe.Joe also knows Joyce “loves” Dorothy, because Joyce has said so in front of him. Joyce told Joe this. Joe was OK with it, although I don’t think he got a very clear idea what that “sex” was. Dorothy also knew everything that Joyce did/planned to do with Joe.
So who c-worded who? And who has not been honest about it? Sure, things may have developed a tad, but I really don’t see why anyone has the right to impose their ideas of m-word on fictional characters, other than Willis and whoever Willis consults.
OOPs mixed that up editing:
According to Joyce, she had “sex” with Dorothy before Joyce was going out with Joe. Joyce told Joe this. Joe was OK with it, although I don’t think he got a very clear idea what that “sex” was. Joe also knows Joyce “loves” Dorothy, because Joyce has said so in front of him. and etc
And the characters who used the word themselves, like when Joyce said “Great, now I’m cheating on both of you” like one human week ago. They probably count for considering.
Thank you, Sarah, for being the voice of reason, as usual. I don’t care if Joyce and Dorothy remain together and part ways with Joe and Walky or whatever, but the inane cheating shenanigans needed to end.
Well, after all the people debating whether this pursuit of fiery passion over a stable romance is good or bad for Joyce, I guess we can finally say, without a doubt…
It’s BAD. REAL bad.
I never would’ve thought Sarah would be in JOE’S corner but here we are…
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YES…
HA HA HA…
YES!
*Hideous ecstatic cackling*
…Hey, how come its always the villains how get to creepily laugh when their schemes come together, and never the hero. Its always: “All goes to plan – at long last the world will bow before my will, HAHAAA!” and never: “At long last my, plans have come to fruition: Gerrymanding in Kentucky will be reduced 7%-15% by the introduction of a bipartisan independent redistricting commission. WMAHAHAHA!!”
I mean, there’s no evil laughter, but you KINDA get heroic (or antiheroic) gloating in “Leverage” whenever the heroic thieves destroy a rich bad guy and return his money to his victims?
There was some evil laughter. Mostly Parker.
I wondered who would be the first to point that out. Chill out, Joyce. You’re giving bisexuals a bad name.
Shot through the heart, and you’re to blame
Y9u give bisexuals a bad name
*Golf clap*
I’ve been calling it out in comments for awhile now. Glad to see it called out in comics.
Besides, if they’re respectful of everyone, and they play their cards right, poly’s not off the table, which is most obligate (type 2) bisexuals’ best route (which judging by their actions they probably are).
Side note for those not up to speed on bisexuality and it’s unique traits…
Bisexuality is a spectrum, under which pansexual, omnisexual, and many other traits exist, but pure Bisexuality itself should, as no surprise, come in two different types:
Facultative (type 1) bisexuality
and
Obligate (type 2) bisexuality
Facultative (type 1) bisexuals crave to have a partner that is one of two genders. (i.e, a Gay/ceterosexual Type 1 Facultative bisexual man may be attracted to Men and non-binaries). Their relationship cravings are satisfied if they get someone that falls in that range.
A Obligate (type 2) bisexual, however, crave to have a partner of each gender they’re attracted to. (i.e. a nonbinary person that’s attracted to men and women [but not other non-binaries], and when with a man still craves to be with a woman as well and vice-versa.)
The fact that these two craved each other while already in close relationships puts them both as likely Obligate (Type 2) bisexuals (if we assume they’re not just poly pansexuals). The two key difference between poly pansexuals and Type 2 Bisexuals, is Type 2 Bisexuals don’t want *every* gender in their relationship, and many may want a “near monogamy” polyfidelity relationship (also known as a triad). This can make things very complicated for an obligate bisexual in a society that expects people to either be monogamous or swingers.
Although only about 80% accurate since poly bisexuals exist, a good memory trick is:
Type 1 bisexuals want 1 partner.
Type 2 bisexuals want 2 partners.
I was rooting for poly before but given the way they’ve behaved what with procrastinating telling their partners while doing stuff with each other I don’t know if they’re really able to handle poly currently.
I’ve never heard of these types before, it was a fascinating read, thank you!
This is very interesting, but I was unable to find any information about it by searching using the terms you provided. Do you have any links to sources for this? Searching facultative and obligate bisexuality got nothing but a reference to your own comment, and same with type 1 and type 2 bisexuality.
nods!!
This is one of many things I wanted, happening exactly as I both wanted and was confident it would happen.
sickos eating good today!
Sicko? Sicko.
YEEEESSS!
hey, remember when Sarah tried to use Joyce to break up a relationship to get revenge on a rival
Remember that whole thread with Rachel and Joe about people being able to change?
“Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing.” – Stormlight Archive
Oh I like that
Oh damn that’s good
Sanderson was definitely cooking with that one.
I haven’t read Sanderson’s books yet. I need to. I liked his writing on the last three WoT books. To whatever extent I was correctly guessing which parts he wrote based on RJ’s notes and which were RJ’s words, at least.
Oh yes you do. He’s a great storyteller. But not too many different series at once, unless you like repeating character patterns (this is especially true for the earlier ones).
( chef’s kiss)
Remember how people can be hypocrites if you dig into all past actions but… still be right
Yeah, I’m a big proponent of the notion that, if your biggest problem with someone is that they’re being hypocritical, you probably don’t actually have that much of a problem with them.
In this specific case, yeah, Sarah was acting like an asshole. So was Joyce. That was bad. But she’s not fucking wrong, and attacking her points because she’s being hypocritical is kinda just admitting that she’s right in what she’s saying and they don’t want to admit it.
Yeah, going after someone for hypocrisy always feels weird. Like a smoker telling their kid not to smoke. Them smoking doesn’t suddenly making smoking good for you, and who else would know better how awful smoking is for someone than a smoker who can’t kick the habit?????
Like, there is a massive gulf between “good for thee and not for me” and this type of hypocrisy and people treat them like the same thing. It’s not even a fine line.
Really the only time going after someone for hypocrisy makes utilitarian sense is in the twin case of “they WANT you to do a virtuous thing that benefits them, while they continue to NOT do that thing in a way that harms you and benefits them.”
Take this down, Smee!
Smee: Take this down, Smee!
*chugs rum*
Aye aye, sir!
(Well said!)
I think that there is a difference in pointing out someone’s hypocrisy with the intent of making sure that they realize their inconsistency, and trying to wield that person’s hypocrisy as a weapon because of one’s own weaknesses, or the weakness of one’s position in an argument.
I think largely the problem is when someone is ongoingly hypocritical. You were against something, then had an experience which made you involved with that something? Learning experience, technically hypocrisy. Having had that experience, but still being against the thing for others? Harmful hypocrisy
Aye, that can be valid. I just see it much more often when the people screaming “hypocrisy” are doing it in a “you’re also doing something that, when looked at it in a very particular and maybe not accurate way, is kinda similar to this thing I’m doing, therefore you should shut up and let me do whatever I want” manner.
Hey, I wouldn’t call that hypocrisy because here we have Sarah admitting that she was wrong before. Okay, not specifically about that incident, but I think if she was queried on it, she’d say so, too.
Hypocrisy is if you use a double standard, where she’d say that what’s wrong for others is still right for her. Not if she says that what’s wrong for other was also wrong for her.
Yup. Hypocrisy is a state of being at a given point in time.
When I was a teenager, I once got into a car with a friend who’d been drinking. Nothing dramatic, though we did get a minor bit of wheel damage by hitting a curb in a parking lot.
It’s not hypocrisy for my 50-something old ass to state, “Drinking and driving is stupid and wrong.”
Remember how she realized what she was doing there was wrong and tried to get Joyce to stop trying to break them up?
Remember when you used to shit your pants multiple times a day and scream about it?
Okay, but I kind of love this as a clap back. Permission to file away for future use? XD
This is a really good one, bravo.
If you’re talking about yesterday, I have plausible deniability.
That was a reply to Taffy but it’s kind of hard to tell.
I have plausible deniability about many things.
I can supply implausible deniability for all the rest
It’s been weeks. How long are you going to keep throwing that in my face?
If people are throwing shit in your face you should probably report that to someone.
What do you think the screaming was about?
And yet that doesn’t change the fact that Sarah is right in this situation.
Is she? Whatever else you want to say, Joyce and Dorothy clearly want to be in a relationship with each other. And here Sarah is like “Joe is good for you! That’s who you’re meant to be with!”
Sarah is right in that they’re going about it the wrong way, but she never can just resist the urge to try and make things the way she wants them to be, can she?
I dunno, I feel like this chat section thinks Sarah is the avatar of wisdom, but I see an interfering busybody who has caused more damage with her attempts to fix things than she’s mitigated, mostly because her definition of “fix” wasn’t the way the people involved actually wanted things to be “fixed”. I was hoping she was getting over that with Tony, guess not.
She did not at all say “that’s who yiu are meant to be with” her mentioning Joe being good for Joyce is to emphasize how much he doesn’t deserve to be cheated on and how wrong she was about him.
Maybe it is because I’m ESL, but I can read that lines as both “Joes is who you should be with” *or* Joes is good *because* of you”.
No, “for” can only mean “because” at the beginning of a clause, and then it’s archaic. (“For he’s a jolly good fellow”… nobody has talked like that in 150 years or more.)
“Joe is good for you” is the same construction as “I did it for you,” and basically means the same as “Joe is good because of you.” I think the intention is that Sarah is saying “you and Joe are good together,” but the other reading is possible and without being able to hear the tone and the natural emphasis Sarah would be using in this spoken conversation, it’s a little hard to be 100% sure about which she’s saying.
But Sarah’s point is absolutely that Joe doesn’t deserve to be cheated on.
Is that what Sarah is saying? Because saying you shouldn’t be cheating on someone is not the same as saying that they’re the person you’re meant to be with.
I mean, it’s both ways, isn’t it? Sarah is saying Joyce shouldn’t be cheating on Joe not just because A: cheating is wrong and B: Joe has baggage about cheating from his parents and C: Joe has improved because of his love for Joyce after being an actual terrible person, but -also- because Joe is actually a good fit for Joyce. It’s okay to say that, it’s true, Joe has been an excellent boyfriend to Joyce and they worked well together, I said in another comment that they could legitimately be an endgame ship, and even still could be, except that I don’t see Joyce managing the growth required for that within the time frames of Willis’s lifespan, certainly not during the course of her time at college.
I don’t disagree with Sarah and I think it is both in character and realistic to expect, but I do agree with the comment that this whole point of view is coming from a trend in Sarah that she gets to decide what are and are not good relationships for other people based on how she feels about the people involved. What we will see is if Sarah does still support and retain her friendship with Joyce despite this, and I think that will depend a lot on how Joyce reacts and what level of responsibility she takes for this.
While you write the next twenty five paragraphs overanalizing the panel where Sarah says “Joe is good for you” into meaning “Joe is who you should be with”, take a break and go back to overanalizing the previous panel where Sarah says “you’re doing this without having broken off your existing relationships” so you can write the next twenty five paragraphs about how obviously Sarah’s hang up is not that they’re doing it in an unfaithful cheating way, but that they’re doing it at all.
In all ways. I still can’t believe that she hasn’t realized that getting someone kicked out of college for doing drugs and then thinking you made their life better is quite a lot fucked up.
Man, back when I thought Sarah was as self-centered as Raidah but just less of a jerk, I was like “cool, nice to see someone admit that they’re primarily here for number one. But Sarah rationalizing what she did as “helping them out” really made her considerably worse than Raidah.
Dana was putting on a brave face for the rest of Raidah’s friend group, but was falling apart and self-medicating with copious amounts of pot around Sarah. Sarah called Dana’s father because of the pot and because she needed real help working though her grief.
Ah. And was there a reason that Dana wasn’t seeking help from her father?
I’ve seen parents “help” their kids, especially their girl kids, in quite a few ways. I’m sure getting her kicked out of college was for the best though! Nothing bad happened, no one got beaten, thrown out on the street, sent to a Christian reform camp, anything like that.
Hey, maybe Sarah should have told Toedad where Becky was, then he could have helped Becky too. Parents are always great at helping their kids!
Dana wasn’t “kicked out”, her dad withdrew her. It’s an important distinction. The university would welcome her back if/when she’s ready.
Just because some parents are shitty doesn’t mean we should regard any contact with them as evidence of hostility. You need some actual evidence for that.
Sarah’s a misanthropic killjoy whose favorite thing is being negative. She’s also right way more often than she’s wrong.
It’s possible that Dana’s dad was the wrong person to reach out to. The majority of parents we’ve seen in these strips have been somewhere between “flawed” and “godawful”.
Sarah, for her part, seems to have been at her wits’ end. Dana was not only doing a shit job at coping with a very serious tragedy, she was effectively covering it up around everyone b who could have helped her in a less escalatory fashion and also effectively dragging Sarah down with her.
Calling Dana’s dad was the nuclear option but at least in her own telling it’s understandable why she would feel she was out of options
As someone whose roommate dropped a dime on me that resulted in me taking medical leave from college for a semester, sometimes you make that call because otherwise you’re going to end up with a dead roommate because he was ignoring suggestions to get therapy and engaging in self-destructive behavior due to clinical depression.
So yeah, I’ve seen parents “help” their kids after a roommate call, too, and it saved my damn life.
As I understand it, it was less ‘Roommate is doing drugs’ and more ‘Roommate is killing herself through drug addiction’.
Perhaps someday we’ll get flashbacks to explain it more clearly.
Sarah does not seem to have handled the Dana situation in an ideal manner, but a roommate who is super depressed and self-destructive is also not the sort of problem I would expect her to know an ideal manner to solve.
I feel Sarah handled it the best way she could. She tried to rally the rest of Dana’s friends first to get her professional help, they dismissed her and basically told her she was on her own. Attempts at talking with Dana on her own didn’t help. Seeking out a parent so Dana would be withdrawn without having anything on her record or getting Sarah in trouble by association was the least awful of option of a bad situation. Just leaving it as is was not a realistic option for Sarah.
Yeah, it’s really hard to see what else she could have reasonably done.
You’re right. Sarah should have blown up her entire future, burned her scholarship and chance at a career she wanted, and not bothered to get her self-destructive and potentially suicidal roommate any help while she was abusing drugs. Not “using” but “abusing” because she was so constantly high that it was affecting her roommate.
It was a trolley problem, and Sarah is not wrong for choosing herself and her future alongside the chance that Dana could actually get the help she VERY CLEARLY needed.
I get the impression that some people and other characters think Sarah owed Dana secrecy for socializing with her but for the minimal effort that required Sarah already repaid her generosity back more then enough. It was a similar scenario with Jennifer being mad a Carla for getting Ruth help “how dare she not stand by and keep our self destructive secretes? we were nice to her!”
I also think Sarah being Sarah exaggerates her concern for her own grades and future, while minimizing her concern for Dana. Not that both weren’t real, but you’d expect most people to paint themselves as more altruistic, but Sarah needs her misanthropic image.
Dana wasn’t just ‘doing drugs’. She was spiraling hard in a fashion quite likely to lead to self-harm, and was also disrupting Sarah’s life and threatening her academic standing. And even then, Sarah didn’t immediately try to get Dana kicked out, or even try to contact Dana’s father. She FIRST turned to Dana’s ostensible friend circle, and specifically the head of that circle, Raidah–who promptly blew off Sarah’s concerns, because Raidah’s a borderline sociopath. At that point, Sarah didn’t have any other good options available to her, and so she chose the one that seemed the least bad–contact someone who, by all rights, SHOULD have Dana’s best interests at heart, and the means to act on that impulse.
serious question: how much actual time have you spent around drug addicts?
because you have to realize that it’s actually very typical for addicts not to seek help on their own and that that’s the entire reason the concept of the intervention exists. the absence of “safe” people in one’s life isn’t the reason that drug addicts don’t ask for help. they don’t ask for help because drug addiction is a safe and comfortable and familiar place within which one can hide from their feelings and live in denial that they have a problem, and seeking help means you actually have to leave that place, and feel all the bad shit you’ve been trying not to feel, and also stop doing drugs. it isn’t appealing.
friends can also be part of that safe, familiar space, so long as they’re the kind of friends who are cool and fun to hang out with, and don’t ask questions, and don’t express concern, and don’t say things like “you have a problem”, and don’t try to get the drug addict any help. there’s a reason drug addicts tend to like to do things like invite people over and have parties. it’s not atypical for drug addicts to find themselves suddenly having to cut an awful lot of people out of their lives once they decide they don’t want to do drugs anymore.
i know people who’ve destroyed friendships, went through brutal breakups, ended up estranged from family members etc as the result of trying to get someone help for an addiction when they didn’t want that help. yeah that’s all a lot more extreme probably than dana’s thing here but seriously talk to addicts about addiction. they often keep people that they know won’t enable their denial at arm’s length, on purpose. that’s real life, that’s how it works.
ah this is a really good point re: Sarah deciding what is and isn’t good for others, but I think that if we’re judging people by that metric Dorothy is the worst by a huge margin. I honestly think Dorothy is Going Through Some Things (including the aforementioned) that make her unfit for a relationship at the moment, and this is one of the many reasons Joyce should stay with Joe rather than going down in flames with Dorothy
do they? Dorothy is currently in mental breakdown mode. She’s being self destructive on her life and ambitions and has lost most of her direction in life. Her shacking up with Walky again was based mostly off impulsive behavior and her relationship with Joyce could very well be that herself trying to “break the rules” so to say. Dorothy is simply not in a healthy mental state right now and she seems to be acting more like Billie than anything else, and her keeping Joyce in this relationship could serve to blow up in her face even more than she thinks because she would damage her friendship with Sarah, Joe, Walky, Becky, and I think even Danny would be a bit upset that her actions hurt Joe as well.
What Danny knows of it, he already doesn’t like. He rightfully called Dorothy out for being a cheating scumbag. And Danny would probably feel bad because he misjudged Joe there. He didn’t think Joe would be the one cheated on, he would have assumed the opposite.
Danny has actually got more level headed over time yes. But my point really does stand that if this relationship happens Dorothy would basically be burning every bridge she’s made and turn her into what Ruth was at her lowest point.
Danny’s callout was way better in all possible ways.
You’re misquoting in a misleading way. You’re overinterpreting what Sarah is saying, and then you misrepresent your interpretation as her actual words. Don’t do that.
Alright Sarah is still right that Joyce is cheating in a relationship that she was happy with with a guy she cared about.
Like Joyce nearly cried when explaining to Joe she touched herself near Dorothy before she was even dating Joe and now she is full on making out with her.
I’m going to bash my fucking skull in, the amount of people either projecting or willfully misinterpreting Sarah here to find the most queerphobic interpretation of her words is driving me insane. That’s no what she’s saying. You know that’s not what she’s saying. Ffs, she’s just saying “you should not have cheated on your boyfriend”, that’s it! The joe was good for you thing is just to exemplify her reassessment of him. Notice how she emphasized the fact that they’re doing this while still in relationships? Jesus Christ man…
Hypocrite =/= incorrect.
Also, Sarah =/= hypocrite, unless the person accusing her of that believes, like Ruth, that people are always who they are on their worst day.
yes. Her intent was to be cruel then. She thought Raidah deserved it. She doesn’t think Joe deserves it, and also perhaps she’s grown since then.
Hell she realized it was wrong back then! She tried to call it off and then Joyce continued on her own
She’s still not wrong about this though?
Except that was to hurt someone she actively didn’t like and even then she felt guilty about it by the end of the day, called it off and told Joyce what she was doing.
Then Joyce made out with Jacob anyway.
I remember. I also remember when she tried to create this exact situation about a week ago.
It’s called character growth, look it up
Remember when Sarah realized she was wrong and told Joyce to stop?
You all heard her! Sarah admitted for once she was WRONG! It doesn’t get more serious than this!
look if you’re going to break up with your current partner to pursue something else just do it, if you change your mind and decide to call off your affair then alright, hell if you want to try to form some sort of Polycule and just group date then go ahead and take the gamble…But ANYTHING is better than dating multiple people at once and keeping them in the dark about it, that’s universally a disaster in any relationship.
They could go talk to Joe and Walky about this and there would be such little issue to me. It’s been like 8-12 hours maybe. They’ve barely done more than they do naturally as just friends, and Joyce freaking gave Joe a blowjob last night. That matters. Just do it. Just talk to them.
Right? If they told their boyfriends right now, they’d still be within “pretty much told them right away” territory.
Which means that they won’t. They’re clearly fixing to get really unequivocally messy. That’s the show!
We should be paying attention to other plot development. Something is going to come up that will distract them from speaking up. I wonder wha it could be?
Distractions aren’t the only way a wrench can be thrown into things. I can’t discount the popular theory of Chekhov’s Journalist. A front-page spread of a dramatic kiss wouldn’t stop them from speaking up, but it could well accelerate the timeline and make it happen “too late” for it not to be horribly messy.
I mean they could have also spent the night not making out and canoodling, it’s not like they’re going about it in the cleanest way possible. I’m not saying they’re scarlet lettered and destined for hell just. Yeah they’re being messy with it and people in their life are allowed to react to that
Yep. And they’re making it way more tempting for themselves to avoid telling the boyfriends, since they can keep avoiding the no-fun conversation in each other’s arms. Until of course Joe and Walky find out from other sources, in a maximally hurtful manner. The aging, it continues to dumb.
Happy Completely Normal One in the Comments Day to all who celebrate
There’s tens of us!
DOZENS!
okay but are we talking about posters or lurkers?
oh. oh, geez, was that *today*? see, I had this *thing* planned…
Both of them?
We have two?
It wikl certainly be something
In celebration I think I will not be commenting today, I hope you all have fun!
I was weak.
can’t believe you said this
FINALLY. And goddamn Joyce is being such a shithead.
She is being a shithead and I hope she does the right thing shortly. Dorothy too.
Well Dotty’s always been kind of a shithead, so this isn’t a surprise. Joyce’s shitheadedness is only tied to harmful romance plots.
Yet Dorothy is the one who kept trying to slow things down because she cared that it was wrong. Didn’t care enough to not do it, but still more than Joyce
Oh yeah no, in this instance, Dotty at least TRIED to not be a shitheel. Joyce is the one who ran full tilt into it without caring about anyone else’s situation.
I meant more in a general sense. Dotty has been a more consistent jack of all asses.
Yeah, I think there’s a reason we got like three instances of Joyce looking to Billie for romantic advice in the buildup to this.
You were!
genuinley interested to know what you think she did before this plotline? Like I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just personally can’t think of what she could have really done.
Mostly screwing over Walky tbh. Trying to get him to cheat on Lucy, forcing him together with Lucy, saying they were casual and then dropping an “I love you” bomb, going on break, ending said break with banging, breaking up after ending said break with banging, throwing a fit because Billie took Joyce to get birth control, making the Halloween party about death by delivering a sudden eulogy, flipping out over someone implying she’s autistic, breaking up with Danny at college instead of like… the March before they graduated so he could pick a different school if he wanted, possibly cheating on Danny (this is 100% joking speculation on my part).
I actually really like Dorothy, she’s crappy in a lot of ways but it’s a very relatable crappy. But I can definitely see where someone would think she’s crossed a lot of lines repeatedly.
The stuff with walky and danny are good calls yeah. Even though it’s not the focus right now, i’m really excited to see how things go with walky, because he’s been treated really poorly across the entire comic, and he usually responds to it by pretending he doesn’t care.
Well somebody’s got to suggest the poly and I don’t see it being anyone other than Walky.
Of course I’m still long-shoting on Joyce/Walky being endgame after Dorothy’s death brings them together.
I could see Joyce doing it honestly
That’s already in another comic, so no.
Yeah dotty is like. REALLY bad at relationships. Her feelings and her “rational” (not really, just self punishing) brain at war and it leads to things like yoyo’ing Walky. Maaad curious to see where it’ll go with joyce
If her rebound with Walky is a hint it could go poorly. Dorothy was briefly happy when she got Walky back before the 2nd honeymoon feels wore off then she was back to dealing with her trauma on her own again. Could be a similar situation with Joyce were she pulls away and keeps things to herself one the inital excitement of having Joyce all too herself wears off.
I know i love it
Joyce and Dorothy both are being shitheads. And I’m glad the first person they told immediately called them out for their shitty behavior.
lol do they get credit for “telling” Sarah when she basically forced the confession?
But yes, I’m loving it for sure!
Who’s saying anything about credit?
This is her typical response when Sara calls her out on her bullshit, snap back till she says something awful and then backtracks…
ProZD’s “Oh they fuckin,” but in a quiet horrified tone of voice.
i’ve never considered this take on the line and somebody out there needs to get him on it
Sarah dropping the hard truths.
Hard for Joyce to hear, hard for Sarah to admit.
Joe can’t be trusted. Sarah should know that by now.
In the current situation, it’s Joyce and Dorothy who can’t be trusted.
Joe can be trusted YOU should know that by now.
Name a single untrustworthy thing he’s done since the timeskip. Hell, SINCE THE DONUTS.
It’s a bit. Read his comments for the last few comics.
Ok Rachel
Are you still doing this running gag or whatever?
I am. This has been the funniest response yet! I was gonna go a full ten day but maybe I’ll drop it if people are getting mad and taking this seriously. I will however continue to distrust Asher specifically at any and likely every time he appears. Gotta stay on brand.
Don’t stop! I would argue that you are performing an important public service. As a Disney movie once said, “People are 60% water. If you don’t stir them up now and then they stagnate.”
Oh that’s a good one… which Disney movie though? I don’t think I’ve ever heard this line before.
Return of Jafar, scene 12.
Maybe this is so obvious that it goes without saying, but some of us only come to the comment section infrequently. On any given day there are usually at least a few really awful takes in here and I don’t believe there’s a curated list of who’s doing bits and who actually sucks.
For moments like that, here’s a powerful tool: 🫴🏻❓
No thanks, I’ve already got a day job.
It takes you a day job’s worth of time to type out “Are you doing a bit”?
None can be trust
Sus are all
Hrm… Sus’R’Us… the new untrustworthy toy store!
‘And, after yesterday, if I wasn’t dating someone, and you weren’t dating Joe I’d… But, that’s beside the point.”
I know Sarah and Tony are gonna break up for some reason and then she’s gonna get with Joe. I don’t know why I feel so confident about this, I just think their arcs coincide nicely with each other.
nah, joe and rachel are gonna end up together
I think they’re gonna hook up, but I don’t think it’ll be permanent. I think it’ll be part of Joe’s backsliding and it’s gonna play into Rachel’s heel face turn somehow (that she was using him or otherwise trying to prove something and instead ends up just becoming a bad memory or even taking advantage of a spiraling dude. Something that puts the shoe on her foot.)
Mind you, I don’t think Joe will backslide backslide, I think he’s gonna make a couple ill thought out decisions before realizing that he can’t go back to how he was before, he knows too much now and the only way through the forest is through.
I know this is sort of annoying of me but you can’t have a heel face turn. It’s either a heel or a face turn, because they mean the opposite.
Take it up with TV Tropes. They’re the ones listing it that way, and I’m willing to bet more people visit that site than watch wrestling.
So it does. Well I learned something today, even if I think it’s sort of stupid.
never underestimate the number of meatsacks that want to watch 2+ humans perform a choreographed dance and acrobatics show, or the type of people who do so. it wouldnt surprise to find out 45-55% of readers here ahve at least spent some time enjoying wrestling past the age of majority. (my childhood best friend was obsessed so i got exposed, fuck the 1st time i saw the undertaker snap to sitting up while paul bearer raises the magic urn is burned into my memories, but i no longer get any enjoyment from watching/following but like the cancer of the ears that is country/western/bro country that exhists for some fucking reason there w=are way more fans than expected)
I suspect the idea is that it’s a heel doing or becoming a face turn?
I alway read that as heel (into) face turn.
I check tv tropes it should be heel”-“face turn
Heel becoming a face – heel face turn.
Face becoming a heel – face heel turn.
It’s a directional term: a heel-face turn means going from being the villain to being the hero; while a face-heel turn is becoming a villain.
More learning. This comic sure is a lesson in vocab for me!
I believe the TV Tropes usage is based on the notion that the first word states their current status, and the second describes the direction they are turning. So “Heel Face Turn” is going from a villain to a hero, while “Face Heel Turn” is the reverse.
This would differentiate from a situation where a character who has been fairly ‘mid’ up to a certain point is then given an arc that shows them in a Heel or Face role.
I would honestly be very surprised if that’s where this went.
I mean, I kind of want to see it. Rachel’s been a dangling thread for a long time, but also there is so much distance to go from where she is to her dating Joe.
Joe and Rachel? I sure hope not. Joe thinks she’s hot, sure, but she’s an absolute garbage fire of a person. I don’t think we’ve seen a single redeeming feature so far.
My hearts still on Joe and Liz, with Joe moving to her school because it has culinary programs worth a damn.
Fair possibility. As of this strip, by the transitive property, Sarah thinks Joe is good for Liz.
Though if Joe is trying to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t endorse cheating, Liz is probably not a great bet.
I like Sarah and Tony too much but man…her and Joe were VIBING last we saw them.
I hope so. I have super bad feelings about Tony, and I want to get to the part where we find out what’s wrong with him.
Pretty sure what’s wrong with him is the same as what’s wrong with Carla right now, which is his family involvement in whatever the hell the protest was about…
Every so often I remember that Joe and Sarah were… actually kinda-sorta a thing back in the Walkyverse??? Like, they weren’t dating per se, and weren’t exclusive, but it was definitely a recurring thing between the two of them. And then I remember that Walkyverse Sarah actually wasn’t really a misanthrope at all, and that she pretty much only hated Joyce specifically…
…man, Walkyverse Sarah is friggin’ weird.
Oh no, the rare Sad!SarahFrown™ edging out the common Angry!SarahFrown™
And there it is. Thank you, Sarah.
(I know that was hard, but it’s both true and necessary.)
Wow, I actually figured Sarah would have a more “I expected better from you, Joyce, this isn’t the person I know you are.” reason, so she must have REALLY changed her mind about Joe.
Which, is fair, she’s seen how much he’s changed and she herself also changed enough to go to him for help.
Yeah I wasn’t expecting that part!
Sarah being annoyed and mad at them — yes, I expected that.
Sarah being HURT by their choices — that one was an extra punch in the gut in the best way possible
Could it be that the mess we were promised is finally here??
Her face in that last panel, oof </3
Seconded.
There’s nothing a cynic hates more than being proven right.
A cynic is just an optimist who was proven wrong one too many times.
Oh no Sarah saying the right and correct things that are gonna make everyone hate her :/
I love Sarah for this. Sometimes, you really need to be set straight when you mess up, and Sarah is doing that perfectly because Joyce is her little sister and she messed up BAD.
I’m glad Sarah is saying this. These two needed to hear this from one of their friends.
I mean, I don’t think any of my fellow sickos mind her saying this even a little bit! Feel free to sound off if yall disagree, ofc.
I’m a sicko, and I mind it.
Why?
A couple people on Patreon are already calling her holier than thou and injecting queerphobia into her statements 💀 as a sicko, the sicko crowd is starting to get mad annoying dawg ngl
Were they sickos, though?
It just seems to fundamentally at odds with wanting mess to be mad that mess is happening.
See, I thought the OG “sicko” criteria was “neutral-to-positive about cheating” — some because more mess, sure, but some because sapphic love is always justified, some because D&J were their OTP, and so on.
My D&D Alignment Chart needs more quadrants (used in the loose sense of not necessarily dividing something into fourths).
True Sicko / True Relationship Paladin = you’d feel exactly what you’re feeling right now even if this were two completely different ships, though maybe a bit stronger for ships you like / dislike.
But what are the other quadrants?
Soft Sicko = wanting mess, but no long-lasting pain? Like if you’re into a bit of light impact play but serious pain is scary.
Soft Paladin = maybe you picked the “they could still redeem themselves” option on the cheating poll. You want them to stop cheating ASAP and to come clean to their boyfriends, but once it’s all above board, you’re at least indifferent to them staying together.
Heh, maybe “reform” versus “orthodox”.
So what, we’ve got a sicko-paladin axis and a punishment/work-it-out axis?
(I am reserving “The Sicko-Paladin Axis” for my next band name if Rock Band/Guitar Hero ever get popular again. “The Friendly Fire Incident” is getting a bit long in the tooth).
(Nice)
Maybe 🤔 OR MAYBE I’m overlooking something major. “Sicko” is sorta like Chaotic and Paladin is pretty Lawful, so maybe I should be working it from that direction, with Neutral in the middle, and we could have Sicko Good/Neutral/Evil, Paladin Good/Neutral/Evil?
I’m not totally sure what the Evil Paladin position would be tho. Obviously Sicko Evil is the maximum gremlin version from Willis’s joke Patreon comic where Joyce found Danny instead of Joe when she got the weighted blanket but still put her mouth on his weenus.
damn. she’s 100% right but damn.
Ill be honest, dorothy aint great for a lot o people rn. Least of all dorothy
And given she was already starting a self-destructive spiral leading into this……. :/
I’m truly saddened by Dorothy’s current situation. I can only hope that she at least reconsiders what she’s doing.
I used to like Dorothy, because she was trying so hard. Not it feels like it was all performative, and she’s an insensitive, selfish jerk undernearth.
Oh this is making me like her way more. This is just the natural consequence of how much she was pushing herself and constantly purity testing herself. This selfish crashout was inevitable and it’s so. Damn. Interesting
Also Joyce shut the hell up, maybe Dorothy wanted to kiss you for so long but you wanted to kiss her for like two days tops
X Doubt
Maybe in her head she’s gone back and looked at her own actions through new eyes and realizing she was into Dorothy all along, but she never once showed any indication of consciously thinking about kissing/dating her until the night of her date with Joe. She’s trying to retcon their history so that this is a huge triumph of queer love to gloss over the cheating and betrayal
Weirdly enough I think it was the reverse. Dorothy did not realize she wasn’t straight until like… three in universe days ago or smth. Joyce didn’t realize it, but she at least said very not straight things all the time. I don’t think Dorothy ever really participated actively in the “this maybe isn’t normal friendship stuff” until either the BC arc or the laundry arc, whichever happened first.
That’s kind of my point though, she’s always said very gay things but was so oblivious, I don’t think the idea of actually kissing a girl ever crossed her mind as a possibility. So it’s incredibly disingenuous of her to say “after wanting to for so long!”
A person can want something and not consciously realize it themselves until later.
That is true and that’s what I’m saying. If she only consciously realized she wanted the thing two days ago, she hasn’t been retroactively waiting six months, she’s still only been waiting two days
But she is said is “wanted” not “waited”, my point being is that she wanted to kiss Dorothy for kinger that 2 days.
We’re arguing semantics but my point is that I think she’s being really disingenuous about this when three days ago all she wanted was to get dicked down by Joe
She can want two things at the same time i assure you. More that two even. I won’t said we are arguing semantic? You Said she only wanted to kiss Dorothy for two days, i said she wanted to for much longer in response. I don’t see how tgat is about semantic
Nadamás’s argument is that that’s not all she wanted, which is what Joyce is telling us right now.
I feel like you’re missing my point on purpose. She never THOUGHT about kissing Dorothy. She never stayed up losing sleep thinking about Dorothy and pining over her unrequited feelings. She had no idea she wanted to kiss Dorothy until two days ago. So it’s bullshit to paint this as something she’s been yearning for for ages, and she’s doing it on purpose to make it a positive thing instead of cheating.
I didn’t miss your point i just disagree with it
Erica, I think that’s a point you should take up with Willis, not with Nadamás.
Clarifying:
I don’t think the intended read of this strip is that Joyce is being “disingenuous”. I think the intended read is that that part of her sentence and defense is honest to how she’s been feeling.
Wanting and thinking about are two different things. They may be related but neither absolutely requires the other. I never thought about my mother living into her 90s, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t want her to.
Joyce had claimed multiple times that she wasn’t attracted to girls. She eas in really deep denial by this point and didn’t know bisexuality existed until at least the time she saw Ruth getting into a new relationship after Jennifer.
Your timeline on Joyce’s feelings, both stated out loud and otherwise, is off by a lot. You may want to reread the comic.
She’s claimed one time not to be attracted to girls, because surely if she could be attracted to any girl it would be Becky, but Mike undercut that by asserting that Joyce would actually be gay for Sal, and Joyce said, “oh if ONLY.”
Willis meant that to be dispositive, but it was in fact one of the most bisexual things Joyce had ever said, and many people in the audience went, “oh yeah that was me, lol, I think you are in fact bi, Joyce.”
Willis’s writing for Joyce did that a lot, and eventually they realized it meant something.
Oh reported myself by incident*
Anyway just wanted to clarify that I wasn’t denying Joyce is bi, just that she webt from deep into denial and so she wasn’t actively desiring to kiss Dorothy.
I mean, she consciously wanted to watch Dorothy have sex.
She had a rationalization for it, which a lot of readers bought into, but that was a conscious want she had.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think she might have had other conscious wants, similarly rationalized, like…
“If only I could kiss Dorothy. Just to practice, of course.”
Li that’s fair. To me, that’s how I interpreted the comic. But it’s certainly possible that Joyce truly believes what she is saying. I’m not trying to argue with Willis over his writing, just debating the interpretation.
Having now slept on it, I also think we might both be somewhat right?
By which I mean: I think Joyce means what she’s saying, but I also think she’s also romanticizing everything that’s happened. I think “we finally kissed” is how it feels in her head and that she’s recontextualizing and rationalizing after the fact — because we all do that, because memory is imperfect.
If someone asks you why you did something and the true answer is “I don’t know,” when you remember back to the action, your brain might well invent a reason.
We don’t recall memories perfectly, the part of the brain responsible for imagining and inventing is always also active.
I appreciate this response!
I think you’re spot on, Erica
Thank you!
2 days is ages…
This is an interesting point. Given Dorothy’s personality, it’s reasonable to think that she has engaged with the idea that there were all sorts of sexual orientations and identities other than the so-called “default” which she could’ve been, and made an affirmative [though incorrect, it turns out] determination that her identity was “cishet and straight”. Given Joyce’s upbringing, it’s probable that her “identity” was “it never crossed my mind that there could be any question as to my identity”.
Isn’t the second half of cishet from ”heterosexual”, aka straight?
That is how I understand it. That it’s an abbreviation for “cisgender and heterosexual,” probably because calling it something like “normal” comes with all kinds of unpleasant implicatory baggage (ie. heteronormativity.)
And it’s Sarah witg the steel chair!!
Do not offend the Steel Chair of Truth, it is wise and terrible
Bless you for this reference.
According to Willis on BlueSky, TOMORROW is Sarah with the steel chair.
I am so excited.
ow my heart
I’m glad Sarah is saying what many of us have been saying for a while. While I don’t like that Joyce and Dorothy avoided telling Joe and Walky earlier, perhaps it’s for the best that they told Sarah first. They needed to hear what she’s saying.
I don’t like it, but it’s absolutely “dumbass teenager” behavior to procrastinate and delay breaking someone’s heart because you don’t want to hurt them.
Like, its shitty, but I fully get why they’re doing it. “Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt”.
I’ve never done it, but I’ve experienced it from people all the way up into their 5th decade, so sadly it’s not even exclusively a “dumbass teenager” thing. Plus most people are better at lying than these two, especially older adults, so things usually drag out for months.
If you’re good enough at lying to yourself, you can drag it out even longer.
SARAAAAAHHHHH ILY SARAHHHHHHHHH <3333
% Nobody Likes Sarah-Lee … %
Wasn’t there a doesn’t in there? I could have sworn there was a doesn’t.
Saaaarah, Saaaarah
Storms are brewing in your eyes
“I see you are a man of culture as well.”
(damn that is a deep cut, especially these days)
Mumbles? The old Dick Tracy villian? When did he get here?
Oh now look. You made Sarah cry. You’ve officially gone too far, now.
Those last two panels… yes, that’s right, YES!!!
DAMN IT!!!
…huh
Cheating next to where your roommate is trying to sleep with someone who cares about you and your partner as people is… truly some kind of choice lmao.
And hasn’t Sarah been cheated on too and knows how this feels? I believe her ex with her sister? So Sarah knows this how this will feel for Joe
That’s a good point that I’d completely forgotten about. Sarah probably has even more personal objections to this than I’d realized.
the fact that Joyce even remotely thought that Sarah would match her energy in the first panel is bonkers.
I’ve been pretty indifferent to the whole cheating drama people are having, but panel one is such a shitty take.
Ah, you can always trust Sarah to be incredibly judgemental, though still less so than the comment section in this case.
Sorry, that wasn’t supposed to be a reply.
And in just a few panels, we see just how much Sarah and Joe have evolved as characters. You love to see it. Damn you, Willis, I only got onto this comic in 2024 but I can tell I’ll probably be a fan for a long, long time.
“and tonight the part of Relationship Paladin will be played by Sarah…”
Ooooooh, I love Sarah in the second and 3rd panel. Joyce, trying to list out her and Dorothy’s cheating behavior as some storybook culmination [which for them it is, but there’s more to it] and tacking on a”that’s really it” as if it’s not that serious, and Sarah having absolutely none of it. Good reality check. Straight forward, to the point, accurate. Unpleasant for Joyce and Dorothy to hear, obviously, but spot on.
Less pleased about the last 2 panels, actually? Well, I am pleased, it’s good emotion and interesting for Sarah. But for all that I like Joyce/Joe, and Joe, and wish Dorothy/Joyce hadn’t happened in this exact way, I don’t want Joyce to feel pressured to go back to Joe just…because he doesn’t deserve to be cheated on and is “good for her.” That’s not a good reason.
This is obviously not the end of the conversation with Sarah, I’m not saying Sarah is actually telling Joyce to do that. And Sarah has a big point in the last panel. I just hope Sarah, with her type of good intentions, doesn’t try to get Joyce to “fix” this in a way that actually does more damage in the long run.
Yes, that brutal and bitter dose of reality from Sarah….DAMN IT IS FUCKING AMAZING.
They did justify the sleepover as okey because Sarah would be there to keep them honest. This is honesty.
Man if I were Sarah I’d be so pissed at her saying “why do you care? You don’t like him.” My reaction is “even if I still didn’t like Joe, I thought you are a better person than this. The Joyce I know wouldn’t cheat on her boyfriend, and whether I like him is irrelevant”
Also, “I care because you’re being painfully obvious about it in our room, and I have to interact at least in passing with both of you and your boyfriends,” would be a perfectly acceptable retort. I know Joyce is frantically rationalizing because Sarah brought reality crashing into her “let’s just tell them tomorrow and have a sleepover” bubble, but it’s still a transparently unfair thing to say.
Also honestly I’d just be really annoyed that they thought I was stupid enough to not notice them giggling under the covers all night
but they were so
obviousdiscreet and cool about it!all the morning papers agree
Honestly, weather or not Joyce is with Joe or not, Sarah is objectively correct about that statement. When Joyce was with Joe, Joe was open, he was patient, he was completely transparent about his hang ups, his limits and his desires. He was showing Joyce that even her sexual desires don’t have to be something to be ashamed of, you can be honest and open about them, and it is indeed a healthy thing!
Meanwhile, the Dorothy and Joyce romantic relationship has been about dramatic, self-destructive decisions (protest), infidelity, directly lying, keeping secrets, cheating on BOTH partners, one after the other.
Joyce and Dorothy, as they are now, are toxic as hell. If this is to ever be a healthy relationship, they need somebody like Sarah to tear down all of the bullshit they’ve told themselves.
Oh, Sarah is absolutely right. But that’s still not a good reason for Joyce to go back to Joe after all that’s happened, for anyone. Joyce shouldn’t be pressured back into a relationship she doesn’t actually want, or wants less than a relationship with Dorothy. Joe doesn’t deserve to have Joyce both cheat and then settle for him because she feels obligated to. And whatever happens with Dorothy and Walky, Joyce going back to Joe won’t fix any of it.
Like I said, I don’t think that will be the conclusion of this conversation or plot. It was merely a gut reaction of, “Sarah, even though you are right, you can’t keep Joe from being betrayed at this point. No matter how good Joe might be for Joyce, that’s water under the bridge now.” And as much as I love Sarah, and I do, part of her backstory is that her well-intentioned “meddling” in her roommate’s lives has backfired on her. In this case, maybe that “only” means a serious fracture in her relationship with Joyce. And, obviously this is an extra chance for Sarah to show character growth and decide that no matter how much she wants it, her “meddling” can’t fix this situation and will only implode her social circle again, so it can’t be her responsibility.
It was a gut reaction from the start of the strip, which I loved for Sarah, to a worry at the end that for all Sarah’s sincereity and accuracy, pushing this with Joyce could go very, very badly for a lot of people.
Sarah’s not telling Joyce to go back to Joe, she pointing out why she’s not happy about Joyce blowing up that relationship. She’s angry at them both for cheating and trying to down play it. She’s telling Joyce to be honest with Joe and not string him along.
Oh, I don’t think she’s trying to tell Joyce to go back to Joe. Panel 2: “without breaking off your existing relationships”.
Oof. Joyce trying to deflect shows that she really hasn’t accepted full responsibility yet for the whole cheating thing. I’m sure she’ll get there. But in the meantime, oof.
Joyce going straight to “we’re in wuv” is Peak Joyce.
She has always operated under the premise that anything done in the service of True Love is acceptable, and hopefully this will be thing that finally, finally, finally disabuses her of that notion.
Yup. There was a lot of theorizing that Joyce’s rationale for all of this was going to be some hyped up romantic story nonsense, and it’s kinda nice to see her immediately jump to that when we finally see inside her head a bit.
Deprogram her as much as you want, you can’t fix romcom brain
Sarah, you’ve earned yourself a solid A, maybe even S-tier placement next time I make a DOA tier list.
Sarah also has a history with cheating. It makes so much sense she doesn’t approve.
S-tier, for Sarah!
although by the tier list guidelines joyce established in that one bonus strip, that would only rank her in the middle of the pack, so i suppose she should really be B- or D-tier in this case
Y’know, I was kinda turning neutral on this whole Joyce/Dorothy thing, ’cause like. Yeah, they ARE dumb horny college students who are about to learn a painful life lesson, like this kinda shit just happens. Is it wrong? Yeah. Are they perfectly moral beings who should never do no wrong? … No, & I’m pretty sure that’s been part of Joyce’s ENTIRE COMIC ARC.
But like. Reading those last two panels from Sarah… I dunno, I felt something. Maybe because it reminds me of the stupid mistakes I made back in High School about ~13 Years ago. ‘Cause even if you can look back on it & see how stupid it was, it doesn’t erase the damage that stupid mistake can cause.
Its why this whole Joyrothy thing (Still don’t know the ship name) has been sitting uneasy with me. Makes me think of my stupid mistakes. I’ve mostly grown past it, but its hard to forget the stupid stuff you did when you were young.
GodDAMNIT, Willis. Some excellent writing.
Thought of this on a second appreciation re-read: so…do we think the “mouth on the weenus” thing is going to be mentioned? And how is Sarah going to handle THAT if it is? Joyce has already made some messy decisions, but that one was a particularly powerful one.
Joyce is awkward, but that doesn’t feel like it’d tonally fit in, not when she’s got plenty of other ways of botching this.
It’s not something I think she would volunteer. It is something I think she might blurt out in a panic if Sarah keeps bringing up Joe.
In terms of just the act itself, I don’t think Sarah would be upset. She seemed pleased that Joyce had found the courage to ..um.. be hands on with her feeling towards Joe, and had previously been of the opinion that Joyce cutting herself off from her sexuality had been harmful to her psyche. Therefore, I don’t think Sarah would be upset that she connected with Joe in that fashion.
In terms of the context of the act … difficult to say? She obviously regards Joyce planning to break up with Joe and cheating on him with Dorothy as very bad, but it is unclear to me if she would regard being physical with Joe during that period as dishonest (and thus compounding the problem) or not.
I dunno, I feel as if, for lack of a better way to phrase this, Joyce doing that with Joe “increases the overlap and deception”? As in, Joyce didn’t kiss Dorothy, then either avoid Joe until breaking up with him or break up with him immediately. Still sucks, but at least there’s less stringing Joe along before the final break up as the cheating happens. Now, Joyce not only cheated, but also continued her relationship with Joe while keeping him in the dark, before going on to cheat on him some more. Given Sarah’s current opinion, I feel as if learning about that would add a despairing facepalm or something, at least.
It definitely twists the knife in further that she had sex with her boyfriend under false pretenses.
The specific physical details are really none of Sarah’s business, (and I doubt she wants to know).
They WHAT?!
you do just one PTO, and now…
I love the hell out of this, truly.
And yeah, I do like that Joyce and Dorothy are exploring themselves, but Sarah’s not wrong. The two know they are going about this wrong, and I do love that she’s not just rolling over for Joyce’s rationalizations, or Dorothy’s half-hearted explanations.
They are young adults making discoveries and mistakes and messes, and that’s not damnable, but that’s sort of long-term talk. In the moment, Sarah’s right to call out that the two are doing as it’s happening.
What Dorothy did is obviously horrible, and it’s very sad, but I don’t hate her. It would be too soon, and we’ll have to see what the consequences will be like and how willing she and Joyce are to genuinely make amends.
Until then, I’ll just remain neutral toward the character, but there’s no hate.
how come only Dorothy? :v
I think Dorothy inparicularchecquae she’s been the most destructive one so far. Her protest stand (cry for Joyce’s attention) almost got the two in real trouble and with her trying to get Ealky to dump Lucy for her from before there seems to be an underlying belief that being in a relationship will fix her trauma so she doesn’t have tovbe honest in therapy.
,* in particular because. *Walky *to be
Major, major character growth from Sarah.
I dunno if she’s ever said the words “I” “was” and “wrong” before, in that particular order.
Always knew that Sarah would be one of the more Relationship Paladiny people out there. Mostly cause she’s all about judging others. But is 100% right here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pCKiHvf9wc
By the way this scene is more or less exactly how I want the Joe, Joyce Dorothy love triangle to work out.
Thank you for that link. +1!
Alright, I’m just going to throw this here entirely based on vibes, because I’m far from the best person to get an unbiased take on this.
I know y’all are all here for the interpersonal drama and the cheating and faithfulness and character development and that’s well and good and honestly correct.
But I’m going to say, the idea of berating someone for being hush hush about a queer relationship, particularly on a college campus (with the added bonus of a fascist crackdown right outside) is uh.
But again, maybe I’m just speaking from personal experience here. Continue with the mess, I guess.
Also, how fast are you supposed to resolve relationship conflicts if you just resolved to loving someone else *yesterday* and also just got home from being tear gassed last night? Instantly? Do you really keep yourself away from the person who’d best help you process all that in comfort for the night? I really don’t know if I’d have the spoons for anything after that.
Wow. What a rational and level headed expectation to have for these two. It would be very within reason to not judge them too harshly for actions that just happened less than a day ago after a very high stress event, But personally I’d rather continue pearl clutching about what terrible people Joyce and Dorothy have become! That’s way more fun!
People aren’t disagreeing with S. Harriet’s comment because they are pearl-clutching about Joyce and Dorothy though? The disagreement is primarily centered around the insinuation that it is objectionable that Sarah expressing her disapproval at Joyce and Dorothy cheating (and is basing that objection off of a framing of Sarah’s behavior that is inaccurate to the context of the narrative).
I was responding to the second comment in added response to the first. That being this all happened very recently and pushing for Dorothy and Joyce to be immaculate icons of romantic responsibility and immediately break up or inform their boyfriends of their just discovered feelings for each other mere minutes after it happened and also after they escaped nearly being arrested is maybe expecting too much?
Sarah’s criticism is valid and so is the responses upset at the cheating. It’s also not really about criticizing queer relationships. That’s just not what I was talking about.
Well you stated that “it would be very within reason to not judge them”, so I thought that meant you were agreeing with the insinuation that Sarah’s current attitude and reaction is something to object to.
No, just us omniscient readers. Like I think we can actually give them the opportunity to address what happened. Maybe you can judge Joyce for blowing off Joe, but Dorothy hasn’t even seen Walky yet. I think the grace period is a little longer than one night. Sarah is on point. Top quality Sarahing from her.
Oh she did more than Blow Joe OFF.
That seems a fair point to me.
I’m not seeing ‘people…insinuati[ng] that it is objectionable that Sarah expressing her disapproval’. I’m seeing people say things along the lines of ‘Sarah is right but/and…’.
Personally I question all this right/wrong stuff. Seems a bit religious fundie to me!
I would personally say you should resolve it before the blowjob but that’s on Joyce’s end. For Dorothy it’s more permissible I guess but she has still very much had ample time to break things up with Walky, and didn’t.
Also in regards to them getting tear gassed, that literally would not have happened* if Dorothy didn’t have her little breakdown and they stopped to make out in the middle of the gas (Amazi-Girl even pointed it out!)
*I mean, the cops still would have thrown the gas would have happened, but Joyce and Jocelyne were leaving and were still only in the area because of Dorothy.
That’s clearly not what happened though. Dotty and Joyce weren’t distressed. They weren’t exhausted. They didn’t collapse in a bed together and fall asleep. Joyce went to see Joe to break up then gave him a BJ instead and then went back to Dotty.
Like you’re completely reframing what actually happened.
On the point of concealing a queer relationship, again Dorothy and Joyce also give no figs about that. I can see your points in a general broader sense but that’s just not what we’re being given on the page (so no wonder readers aren’t talking about it).
Them being hush hush has absolutely nothing to do with being queer and everything to do with them cheating
that’s… not remotely the point. The point is not “you should be open about your queer relationship” the point is you should not be actively cheating on your partner.
I didn’t say it was the point. I said it was a thing that was happening, and the interpersonal drama is taking the lack of social context for granted. I know Sarah is thinking seriously about Joe’s feelings here, but for the audience the context is inescapable. And again, I’m far from unbiased on this, and going entirely on vibes and personal experience. Really this is just dramatic mess, and I got a different emotional response from it based entirely on context within and without the narrative. That’s all.
But what you’ve claimed is happening, that Sarah is specifically berating Joyce and Dorothy for being hush hush about having a queer relationship, isn’t what is happening in the narrative? Sarah is berating them for being hush hush about cheating, which again is the undeniable reason Joyce and Dorothy are being hush hush about it.
the reality of the narrative is that that is also a thing that is happening. Even when Sarah’s specific complaint isn’t about them being queer, its also true that she is doing that to a queer relationship. It is interesting context that I hadn’t considered the story through a lens of, and it’s worth pointing out.
But the reality isn’t that though? Getting berated for being hush-hush about cheating while the cheating relationship is a queer one, does not automatically make the berating about keeping a queer relationship quiet, that’s a dishonest framing of the context of Sarah’s reaction.
Keep saying this is quite dismissive of S. Harriet’s point. Which is a valid one to be expressed. And lets face it, If I had a US$ for every time someone has said it’s the cheating that’s bad, I’d certainly have a decent amount of money to spend! Yes, we know that lots of people think they shouldn’t be ‘c-word’.
S. Harriet’s point was new. If I has a US$ for it, I’d have a US$…
I think you’re entirely projecting your own personal experience here, and I’m sorry you went through that but Joyce and Dorothy are on a campus with many openly gay couples and queer people, some of their best friends are gay, and they don’t deserve to be coddled and not called out for cheating on their boyfriend just because it’s gay cheating.
People projecting their own personal experiences onto stories and art? Experiencing the art through the lens of their own life?
Wild. Unheard of. It’ll never catch on.
I’ll point out that you (and me, and everyone else in the comments) is also projecting their own personal experiences on the story as they interpret it. That’s why so many people disagree with each other so strongly.
The flipside of this, though, is that being queer somehow would make the characters immune to criticism for misconduct.
No it isn’t.
Technically Dorothy and Joyce COULD just break up with their boyfriends and not give a reason. They don’t HAVE to say “I’m breaking up with you cuz I’m dating a woman now.”
In theory, but let’s be real, there’s not the slightest chance they’d be able to hide that they’re dating now, so what would be the point of that.
And that pretty much obliterates S. Harriet’s objection here, IMHO — these two are NOT closeted, and there’s almost no likelihood they will be. They do not appear interested in hiding their RELATIONSHIP, only their cheating on their respective boyfriends.
If they showed even the slightest hint of intending to be closeted, the whole debate might be more fraught.
“here” in my first sentence, I realize I wasn’t clear, means “in the context of Joyce and Dorothy”.
Mmmm, I don’t know about that, honestly.
There’s a (misguided) reason why the comment section keeps lighting Dorothy on fire for being biphobic and ableist, and it’s because, despite obviously herself being both bi and autistic, she keeps saying stuff that indicates she is not ready to be publicly read as either.
She wanted to tell Joe and Walky. Spending a very positive, affirming, comforting night with Joyce left her feeling strong enough to tell Sarah. But maybe there’s more than one reason why Becky was so far down Dorothy’s list of people to tell.
Which I believe is mitigated by breaking up with your boyfriend and not telling him it’s cuz you’ve found someone new.
I agree they could do that! Dorothy didn’t have real reservations about telling the boys — despite today’s alt text joke, telling the boys was #1 and #2 on her list.
It’s telling Becky that was dead last, with no indication that “telling the rest of our friends” was anywhere in-between.
Also I should clarify, I’m not on the “mad at Sarah for saying any of this” train, I was purely noting that I’m not sure I would agree that Dorothy specifically isn’t closeted at all.
I can see that, but I’m also kinda judging their “collective” closetedness at the moment — and while Dorothy is all kinds of over the place as you say, I’m pretty sure that JOYCE is absolutely ready to tell everyone.
Agreed!
I think it’s fully possible that right now, Dorothy is just ready to tell Walky (and still workshopping the exact wording), whereas if she could, Joyce would love to tell everyone in the dorm except for Joe.
Neither of them are looking forward to hurting the boys, but I think Dorothy might be much more emotionally ready for that part, versus Joyce.
I understand the concerns about openness about a queer relationship, but since neither Dorothy nor Joyce have brought up “what if People X find out we’re queer”, then I think its fair to set that aside for the moment.
Not that you aren’t bringing up a valid concern, just that neither Joyce nor Dorothy are considering people finding out they’re queer as a reason not to tell anyone, so it clearly isn’t currently a concern right now.
(okay, there’s Becky, but that’s for somewhat different reasons that don’t really apply to that situation)
I’m definitely going to give Joyce and Dorothy some “Minorly Shitty Person Allowance Points” given all the events of the previous days. It’s been a lot. But they’ve both openly stated that they know they need to break things off with their current partners, and aren’t, and still went to snuggle in a quite non-platonic manner… it indicates that they know there’s a thing they should be doing instead here.
Because its not just about them. Joe (oh, and also Walky I guess) doesn’t deserve to be led on and cheated on and hurt. I’m sure there’d be understanding if they dropped everything to break it to their respective dudes, but the point is that this is a relationship status update that they are kinda entitled to.
The cheating is bad regardless.
I think overall it’s true that they should at least break it off with their current partners, and joyce has activley avoided doing this. That said, Sarah doesn’t know this and joyce’s explanation is pretty reasonable.
The “Joe is good for you” as a responce to joyce basically coming out to her older sister is in particular, pretty cruel feeling.
All that said, it’s pretty clear that Sarah is speaking from an emotional place herself, so it makes total sense that she wouldn’t react perfectly (shes also just kinda famously bad at this type of thing)
I think the “Joe is good for you” line is less about being a response to Joyce “coming out” to Sarah, and more Sarah explaining the reversal in attitude she has had about Joe (since Joyce is trying to deflect her wrong-doing by pointing out how Sarah used to be opposed to/concerned about Joe and Joyce dating).
Yep, pretty sure Sarah would have the exact same reason if Joe was a woman or Dorothy was a man.
yes, obviously. Still, the intention of what she said isn’t the only thing that matters in the scene. It’s obvious to any reader what that means, especially having seen the scene where she warms up to him. but from the context of a character in it, it’s very possible to have it read differently.
Of course, I think the FAR more likely outcome is that that aspect of it is brushed off by the characters, but it’s still interesting to analyse it like that.
This hypothetical character who might possibly have read it differently doesn’t likely exist though? Joyce is the one who demanded that Sarah explain her attitude change about Joe, so I think she can understand the context of Sarah’s response.
But why break it up? Can they not say, hey, this happened, where to from here? Surely the c-word is about lying and deceit, not about the m-word, or people would be going on about monogamy instead? Why is monogamy assumed, therefore =/=mongamy=cheating? Isn’t this a personal opinion thing? One person’s personal opinion does not have to be imposed on others?
People were going on about monogamy for a bit, it’s been litigated into the ground. Joyce has stated her relationship with Joe is monogamous in as many words. I agree with you about the option of remedy but this is for sure cheating. There’s no world where this isn’t a breach of relationship contract, but it could be a resolvable one.
Because everyone involved (Dorothy, Joyce, Joe, and Walky) have clearly shown that the relationships are monogamous. Dorothy and Joyce clearly realize they are cheating and should end their current monogamous relationships with the guys so they can officially become a monogamous couple themselves.
Do they? Is that what they actually want? Initially Dorothy said we have to tell them, only later did she change that to breaking up.
I mean, the openly stated plan seems to be break up with the boys and date each other. Neither one has questioned that plan.
I’d say Dorothy is equally avoiding talking to Walky, hiding behind speeches and schedules for why she isn’t going there right now.
this dormitory is okay with Becky and Dina having loud sex on a stuffed plush and the polycule that Sierra openly is part of, this environment is not dangerous to be queer in.
I mean the dormitory has Mary in it. Carla’s experience is a prime example of how if a space is 99% welcoming of someone, but has a single activley hostile person, it can become genuinley awful.
What’s Mary gonna do, tattle to Teacher that the queers are being queer again? She’s completely toothless.
In the case of carla she activley dehumanised and targeted her for bullying. Carla’s tough enough that she can mostly brush it off, but pretending that those things are not harmful feels disingenuous.
Like, i’m not counting on it happening specifically, but I could easily see a plotline being written about Mary deciding Joyce is an easy target and honing in on her “moral failings” to bully her.
Come to think of it, with how many queers as there are in their wing, I sorta wonder how easy it would be for them to collectively pressure the relevant administration into relocating Mary on account of her open bigotry and consistently hostile behavior.
I just mean to say, sometimes I get a different emotional response to a work of fictional media than the author ever intended.
It doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate or understand the literal events taking place in the world of the story, or the emotional meaning intended in conveying that story, or the fact that the audience will successfully grasp and experience that intentional effect even if I don’t.
So yeah, Dorothy and Joyce have been cheating on their boyfriends for less than a day, and Sarah has gained a respect and fondness for Joe and strongly disapproves of Joyce not giving his feelings due respect for that. I know. I didn’t miss that. I had an emotional response that hit differently than intended, strongly enough that it overrules all other considerations. That’s all.
That’s absolutely fair — it’s also entirely reasonable to worry about a queer couple in the abstract not being made to come out until they are ready to do so, to be clear.
There’s no Trump in this comic. We don’t know if homophobes are in power; we’re not given enough context to tell how fascist the crackdown is. And as other people have said, the campus by itself (absent precisely that unknown context) is not a problem.
Willis has said that the current president IRL is always the current president in comic, so yes, the homophobes are in power.
Wild to say this about Indiana.
Indiana was not a great place for queer people to be in 2024, either.
If this was an actual concern the characters had about the situation, it would have been mentioned in the text by now I feel. Clearly, the issue here is the cheating, not the queerness.
Oh, I disagree completely, I think Dorothy’s already said quite a few things that indicate she’s not ready to be publicly known as bi. I think a night of being curled up with Joyce and not having nightmares for the first time in a while made her feel strong and proud and ready to tell Sarah (at least parts of what’s going on), but I think it’s too soon to say Dorothy doesn’t have any reservations about being publicly out.
I think a lot of those things she said were informed by her trying to bury her attraction to Joyce by way of burying her bisexuality.
Maybe.
I mean yes, absolutely that’s the context they were said in, but I suspect there’s overlap here with her bristling in response to being asked if she’s also autistic.
I could be totally wrong, I’m definitely not sure enough of this take to be positive we’re about to see more internalized biphobia from Dorothy, but I just wouldn’t be surprised if she’s not actually ready to be publicly known as Not Normal in this way.
It might genuinely be a lot easier with Joyce standing beside her though. Goodness knows I’ve always found it easier to come out to people when I have a girlfriend.
It’s so much easier to just slip a mention of your partner into a conversation than it is to get it across in any other way. ._.
I absolutely agree that Dorothy is very ready to be supportive of OTHER people’s non-normative situations but she has spent so long being afraid of anything that the general public could find objectionable about her that she’s actually internalized quite a bit of bullshit where she herself is concerned. She’s normal. She’s presentable. She’s morally perfect. She’s put so much work into being all of those things. What do you mean she might actually not be any of those things? What do you mean some of them might never have been on the table for her no matter how hard she worked? Of course these things aren’t bad in general but for her? They would be actual points of failure.
I’m gonna be real it’s sort of annoying y’all saw someone explicitly say “I know I’m probably biased but here’s my personal feelings / a different reading on this” and immediately jumped in with “uhmm here’s why you’re wrong.” Like it’s fair to disagree obviously but S. Harriet literally already acknowledged that that reading is not a common one and some (not all) of the replies feel more like they want to correct that reading instead of like, engaging with it regularly? It’s not a great vibe!
Engage with it regularly how? People have every right to say that someone’s openly biased and altered reading on the situation has several serious flaws.
Ouch. And even disagreement can be kind. I hear what you are sating but I don’t see it like that because….
Apparently I am also “wrong” because others disagree!
Yes, absolutely wrong.
idk, scroll up? there’s some interesting comments that say a bit more than “this isn’t how it’s written in the comic”.
Secondly… This might just be a difference in interacting with media, but a reading being biased doesn’t like, make it bad or incorrect. It makes it a biased reading (something which, again, the original comment is aware of). It brings up a different perspective other people might not have, because they’re not biased in the same way, or maybe they’re just not interested in readings other than the “intended” one. This is, to me a good thing. Sometimes people get pretty adamant that their read is the “correct” one, which can get annoying, but that’s not really the case here.
Also people “have every right” to do literally whatever, and I’m not sure why you brought it up? I’m just gonna call them annoying about it & say it’s not particularly welcoming.
Funny, because this is clearly a bad and incorrect reading. Just because everyone can have an opinion doesn’t mean they are all valid. Having awful takes and expecting people to take it seriously isn’t a positive. And letting people have awful takes under the guise of being welcoming isn’t helpful.
I think that this is a situation where we can safely assume that individual circumstances are more important than the societal paradigms. No one in their social circle is going to give a darn that these two are queer. There’s an open lesbian polycule on the floor already. Joyce and Dorothy are not in any danger if they tell their boyfriends they made out.
With different people, this is a fair argument but it’s really not applicable here.
So first off: while the dorm itself might be fine generally, that doesn’t mean there’s no reason for them to fear coming out of the closet. There is a whole world outside that dorm, and they haven’t even slightly reckoned with how being visibly and outwardly queer is going to affect their interactions with that world. There are plenty of reasons to be cautious about coming out less than 24hrs after noticing the closet. Even in an accepting environment, it can be terrifying.
Secondly, I’m betting that basically everyone in their social circle will “give a darn” that they’re queer. I don’t think all the reactions will be negative, but some people (like Becky as everyone kept banging on about a few days ago) have the potential to have a negative reaction at least initially.
I’ve seen plenty of people come out IRL to the tune of “OMG how have you only JUST figured this out and here are all the reasons the closet was made of glass” and that can sound like acceptance (because it’s halfway there) but accepting someone’s current identity while mocking the journey they took to get there, can be stressful for a baby gay to go through.
And I think there’s going to be a decent amount of that in their future.
Thirdly, anyone (in-comic) who DOES have an issue with them being queer can just phrase it as an aversion to cheating and get patted on the back for doing so instead of rightfully questioned about why they give a fuck about someone else’s relationships.
Finally, while I don’t think Sarah is saying this in a homophobic way, it remains true that the first person Joyce told about her newly uncovered feelings immediately told her to get her hands off Dorothy (and vice versa).
I mean I think I’d be remiss not to bring up that Joyce is still very much… not an independent adult? Her dad’s *improving* but “accepting the gay friend” and “accepting the gay (or queer or bi or whatever) daughter” are, from experience, two very different things
sarah is, on one hand, very much in the right here
on the other hand, the “doing something wrong” is probably going to intersect with Joyce’s upbringing in some…. unfortunate ways, is my guess. like she’s still deprogramming, she’s not that far out of it, and having a non-fundie friend phrase it that way (even if, again, she’s In The Right from a non-queer sense) is just a tad unfortunate
We need more sicko representation in this scene
now you’ve done it, joyce
you made sarah BE SINCERE
only doom awaits us now
I’m a big enough person to acknowledge I may have been too hasty.
Hell Yes! Thank you Sarah. New favorite character.
Is anyone else picturing Gandalf coming over the hill with the Riders of Rohan? The Relationship Paladins preparing to ride down the Goblins in righteous and long-overdue fury?
As if they’re not constantly furious anyway.
Do you change your gravitar every day?
Just whenever I feel like it.
This orage and green one looks like “evil Joyce”.
If Goblins = sickos, I don’t think you understood what the sickos were rooting for!
This is both of us winning.
This is really why the paladins/sickos model doesn’t work — there are at least some sickos who want this to end with no consequences and possibly a poly quartet, and at least some paladins who will never stop being angry because cheating happened at all.
Meanwhile, the “sickos, due to wanting drama” and “paladins, who want the world of actions and consequences to make dramatic sense” are holding hands and skipping off into the sunset, well-fed.
So it’s like the distinction between toxic masculinity and positive masculinity? Or maybe Goofus and Gallant?
Hold my hand broseph, we’re making merry
Hey, as a “sicko” who contains multitudes, here’s a nonexhaustive list of things that would have made me happy at various points:
— Dorothy realizes she’s bi and goes on a quiet personal discovery. In this version of events, Willis makes good on long-running tension and humor without giving me any form of my ship. I’d be a bit sad as a shipper, but otherwise pretty satisfied. I was open to “Dorothy fulfills her occasional narrative role as Lois Lane and hooks up with Amazi-Girl” too. I disliked calls for her to hook up with Jocelyne or Daisy, which both seemed to me to be really trivializing her feelings for Joyce: “surely any blond will do”.
— Dorothy and Joyce realize they have feelings for each other and both break up with the boys they’re dating to start an above-board relationship together.
— Similar to the last one, but they instead propose poly.
— Similar to the last one, but they kissed once first or something.
— Hm, maybe Joyce knows something I don’t, and actually this is going to be fine with Joe? And oh right, Walky’s talked about poly before, actually, maybe he’ll be fine with it too.
— Nope, this is definitely going to be some sneaking around first, I hope there are appropriate consequences.
AND ALL THROUGHOUT, all throughout, I was struck by twin feelings of “oh NO” and “ooooo”, where I didn’t know what the consequences would be for the kiss finally happening, but I was excited to find out.
I’m sure many people had their own equally complex journeys haha.
But I think folks upset with Sarah for what she’s saying here must be reading her tone very differently from me.
Similarly as a Paladin, a non-exhaustive list of outcomes that would have made me happy:
– Dorothy realizes she’s bi and goes on a quiet personal discovery. In this version of events, Willis makes good on long-running tension and humor…
– Dorothy and Joyce realize they have feelings for each other and both break up with the boys they’re dating to start an above-board relationship together.
– Hm, maybe Joyce knows something I don’t, and actually this is going to be fine with Joe?
– Joyce rejects Dorothy’s advances, due to any reason at all (I am confused by Billie as to how gal pals act, and will be tabling the bi question at this time! I have to talk to Becky about this before I act! I am bi but not for you! I am dating Joe at this time!)
– Dorothy stops herself, but like, actually stops herself, and we see her actually start to deal with her trauma.
– Joyce goes back to Joe before the protest and has a heart-to-heart about her recently-discovered Dorothy-like. Maybe they break up! Maybe they go non-exclusive/casual/dating around! Maybe they try to see if poly is on the table!
– Joyce goes back to Joe immediately after the protest kiss and comes clean. Maybe he understands! Maybe he reads her the riot act! Maybe some of the options from the bullet point above!
– Dorothy and Joyce sneak around, and get some appropriately messy and dramatic consequences for choosing the course of action most likely to snap back on them like a recalcitrant rubber band.
Personally, I see a lot of overlap.
Sure, my PREFERENCE would have been for “Joyce rejects this, because ‘I am dating Joe at this time!’. Doesn’t close a door, Joyce gets to have her awakening but also some tension, I still get a reasonable amount of Joeyce to fanboy over.” But this that’s happening now? I’ll take it.
Yeah, and I bet we aren’t the only ones who have a lot of overlap. We’re not so different you and I etc. 😉
I’m a sicko, and I sure don’t feel like I’m winning here.
Nah, Gandalf was the good guy.
Also Sarah: “Excuse me now, I have to go throw up a little…”
More?? She’s already very tall
Ah, “throw up”, not “grow up”.
I’m not currently subscribed to Willis’ Patreon, so when I went to look at the no-dialog crop of tomorrow’s strip that’s currently linked, my take was “… and if you ever tell anyone I admitted I was wrong, about anything, let me remind you that I have a bat.”
This strip is beautiful. It’s everything I wanted and more. I have my hopes about how this all shakes out, but someone calling them out like Sarah has here was what I most hoped for.
Joe/Walky Supporters: YES! LAY IT DOWN, SARAH!
Dotty/Joyce Shippers: YOU SHUT UP! LOVE WINS! LOVE WINS, DO YOU HEAR!!!
As a Dotty/Joyce shipper: i am not saying all that. I am loving this.
Everyone else just grinning with a single thought going through their mind… “let them fight.”
* adds to head canon *
I’m sure there are some Joyce/Dorothy shippers who will react that way, but people finding out about the cheating and being rightfully mad is part of what the “mess! mess! mess!” crowd has always wanted, heh.
This is why sickos always win
We want the mess!
We are like that guy from the gargoyle show i never watched
* David Xanatos smiles smugly over his steepled hands.
Agreed, but also: the ship I’m wishing for (though not expecting) is some kind of poly mess in which all four try to be in a poorly-planned relationship together which ends up being simultaneously disastrous and sweet, and while I’m definitely happy that things are going off the rails here, Sarah’s insistence that they actually communicate would also be progress toward the improbable dream ship.
Yes, it’s probably not going to happen, but if it does… we could have months of mess! Maybe even years!
I know, I know, there are lots of problems with this idea, Joe’s (very understandable) issues with cheating being merely the most obvious. Much of the appeal of this dream is in seeing how they struggle with these difficulties; the wish isn’t for blissfully easy romance, it’s for a long and complicated relationship that nonetheless brings happiness to all involved.
It may be a terrible idea, but so was Billie+Ruth.
I want to see them try messy poly, too. I don’t think it’s completely out of question yet, but it would probably take a while to get started either way.
Importantly, I know Willis has heard our pleas, and I imagine they’ve added “messy poly” to a list of future ideas if nothing else.
I… really thought that polyamory was the route that we’re headed for, but I’m not sure? I wanted polyamory for them.
I think it’s important to note that the comments above yours are specifically referring to messy poly, the kind that is very much not happily-ever-after and the attempt only leads to More Drama.
Late to reply, but I wanted to point out that mine specifically wanted them to be happy…
Just… barely happy enough to justify the complications.
Also, on reflection, maybe Amber should be in there too, because why not? She might even enjoy the drama.
Nah, I still want them to work it out eventually. I just both expect and desire complications and miscommunications and hurt feelings until they figure out a good balance ❤️
Came back here searching for something (as is my wont) and found that Li has, once again, phrased things better than I did.
Thank you!
Great. But I surprised that lot of people that defended Joyce and Dorothy are defending Sarah here. Because her huge development.
(Except me, but it’s a long history)
Honestly I was a Joyce / Dorothy shipper. How they got together kinda soured them to me
I actually haven’t seen anyone at all saying the second thing.
They unfortunately exist and are paying 5 bucks a month to say it in a smaller forum
Not a ton mind you just, a proportionally bigger amount than here thanks to the smaller sample. And that small amount is enough to be very annoying
nods solemnly, because this is exactly what I expected
This was something that obviously had to happen and believe me, the great development that Sarah has shown is truly admirable.
Yeah, Joyce, that thing you’re trying to do where you weasel rationalize something you know you’re doing wrong? Is not going to work on your big sister in ‘no bullshit’ mode.
I do like that she’s realized she’s had these feelings for a long time (since at least just before the time skip) though.
I must have completely missed when it was coined as a term, but when did Willis starting adopting the sickos vs. relationship paladins thing (the origin of the latter term is what I am particularly interested in)?
It was a joke by a commenter that Willis turned into pool. Sickos is from an onion comic.
Yeah I know where the sickos meme is from, but when did the paladin joke occur? A year ago? Or is it like a only a couple of months old?
I think it was just something that commenter made up
I get that, but I am still curious how long ago it was made up by said commenter(s).
June 7, 2025 at 12:30 am
Thanks, so just a little over two months.
You probably found it already, but to save people searching:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/almosthappened/#comment-1886937
Sickos is not from The Onion. It’s from a “Chick tract”, a comic by the fundamentalist creationist Jack Chick who is so over the top he’s basically a parody of himself.
No, you’re wrong. The full image that the “sickos” bit is from is a cartoon in The Onion drawn by Stan Kelly. He’s likely parodying Chick tract among other reactionary cartoons, and maybe there’s a specific Sicko in there he’s referencing (I wouldn’t know), but the meme/image people know is absolutely an Onion cartoon. Iirc think it’s about drug legalization.
Yes it is. It was from a parody of a political comic drawn for The Onion.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sickos-haha-yes
Also I don’t even think we can say it was specifically a parody of Jack Trick. The sicko looks like a character he’d draw, but he didn’t really do any labeling. His extremely unsubtle strips had more than one panel and weren’t in this style at all.
I love Sarah so much
Panel 3 Sarah got ME scared for me like I did something wrong
You know what you did
THANK YOU SARAH I LOVE YOU SARAH
Sometimes you need someone in your life to ask you what the fuck you are doing with a level of disappointment or disgust.
Ironically, I think the old Joe would have had no issue with a girlfriend who sleeps with other gir- with other women
The old Joe wouldn’t have had a girlfriend.
Dorothy changed her mind about Joe too, so I guess in a few chapters, Joyce will smooching with Sarah.
not looking forward to the IRL months Joe and Walky are gonna be devastated over this, especially Joe. We took a long road from Joe’s self loathing coming up to it getting dealt with and now he’s gonna be shattered into pieces over this.
Hopefully he will come out learning to pin his self confidence not on how other people see or treat him, but instead on honestly being proud of how well he treats others and the choices he makes to Do Better.
Sarah defending Joe is a welcome development.
So… many pages back, someone here predicted Sarah’s reaction.
And I just wanna say, whoever you are you smart person you, you deserve a cookie!!!
Also, Sarah just moved up to my fave character. I never disliked her because she reminded me of a slightly less obnoxious Tsundere. But now I’m really fond of her.
This is honestly exactly how i hoped she’d react. Just pire disappointment in Joyce and its, ugh, im sorry for doubting you willis, i was too impatient
Am I alone in thinking Joe would be willing to share Joyce with Dorothy? I don’t know about Walky though…
I find that at least a possibility because, and this is important. HE ALREADY KNOWS DOROTHY LIKES JOYCE! He called her out on it himself. He has to suspect this was a possibility. I don’t know if he’d be okay with poly but I don’t think that discussion would be out of the question for him. I think the real issue would be that Joyce would prefer Dorothy over him and love her more.
I feel like maybe he would have at first, if she approached him at the beginning… But the way she’s been acting, she has just been so dismissive of Joe entirely that if I were him and I could see these last few strips, I’d be too hurt to stay in a relationship
I feel like it would last about as long as it took for Danny to go “have some dignity, Joe.”
Which is not to say they couldn’t be a big poly pile with dignity. But not under these circumstances they couldn’t, and Danny both A) Cares About Joe enough to recognize that and B) is Danny, and thus him being the one telling someone to have some dignity about this would be the wakeup call.
I believe in that. Since the first time, when Joyce was struggling with sex to him. I believe he will be smart to detect this, before to discover the cheating.
You’re not alone, it’s been a subject of debate for at least the last few months.
The evidence “for”: This strip was linked by Willis in a megapost of various hints for Joyce/Dorothy and discussion over earlier points in the story where they almost pulled the “Joe confronts Dorothy about whether or not she has feelings for Joyce” trigger, basically confirming that Joe isn’t just talking about going drinking with Dorothy.
Also, of course, he went and talked to Dorothy, and his approach was pretty understanding.
Plus, there’s this, and all the other many things Joyce has said about Dorothy over the course of their relationship.
I don’t think this is going to be as big a surprise as Joyce and Sarah think it is.
If Joyce and Dorothy had come to him before they kissed, I think he would’ve been expecting it, even, and prepared for the conversation, even if not necessarily truly prepared emotionally for what a poly relationship with Joyce would mean.
(I don’t think the way he talked about “allowing” himself to feel jealousy is healthy!)
At this point, of course, they did kiss, and Willis made sure to remind us that Joe might have a specific type of feeling about being cheated on, and here Sarah is, calling it a betrayal.
(As for Walky, he’s joked a couple of times about wanting to try poly with Lucy and Amber. He was less than enthused about the idea of Joyce specifically, though, when Dorothy told him she’d expressed tipsy interest in watching them have sex, clearly expecting him to think it was hot.
I don’t think Walky will be surprised, either, heh, but I find him hard to read, and it’s all going to depend on how it hits him: is this “finally, I was right all along about my girlfriend having a girlfriend” or is it more like “well. I see I’m not even good enough to offer a meaningless distraction all on my own, she also needed someone else.”)
So, Joyce is easy. She clearly wants to have her Dorothy and keep Joe too. I mean, she went to his room intending to break up with him, but it clearly wasn’t making her happy, and then she not only didn’t break up with him, she went down on him. So yeah.
Joe has been pretty clear that his primary concern is Joyce’s happiness — to a degree that I frankly find kind of concerning, and which is one of the reasons I’ve lost interest in the ship. I’ve shipped Joyce and Joe since… Roomies Redux? One of the flashback Roomies! arcs, anyway. But the thing I liked about them is the way they pushed and challenged each other, and when they actually got together here, that just… went away.
But anyway, he knows the score with Joyce and Dorothy. He confronted Dorothy about it before she even admitted it to herself, and didn’t seem upset with her about it. He knows about laundry day, and his reaction was surprise and maybe just a little prurient interest. In a vacuum, I think he’d be fine with Joyce’s Dorothy time being naked time, and would try very hard to resist asking if he could watch. Of course, we’re no longer in a vacuum here; we’re in a cloud of tear gas and teenage hormones.
Walky’s known the score longer than anyone. I know certain people here will dismiss him as just being a jerk, but he’s way more observant than he lets on. He just frames it as snark and plausible deniability because that’s how he approaches everything. He’s had Joyce’s feelings for Dorothy pegged for months, their time, and nailed Dorothy’s motivations (right after nailing her) for floating the idea of closet Joyce watching them fornicate well before she was willing to admit them to herself.
However, he seems a lot more emotionally fragile than he was the first time around with Dorothy, and I’m not sure how he’d take Dorothy being in lesbians with Joyce moving from the hypothetical to the real.
And that brings us down to Dorothy. As with Danny at the beginning of the comic, she’s already broken up with Walky in her heart and just hasn’t sent him the memo yet. And she’s not going to like sharing her Joyce with anyone, least of all Joe. And I’m not sure if she realizes, or wants to realize, that Joyce is not necessarily on the same page she is about exactly what they need to tell the boys.
This was a very good post.
Very much yes on that last point.
One of the things going on here is that not only haven’t Joyce and Dorothy talked to the boys about this, but they haven’t even really talked to each other. They’re still just reacting.
If this were a musical, I think Joe would have just sung “Jolene” to Dotty. He was willing to step aside for Joyce’s happiness, but didn’t seem to consider any outcome other than Joyce choosing one of them. AU Joe in the older comics is another story, but Dumbiverse Joe seems to have diverged significantly.
Walky’s been making jokes from the start of the comic, so he was arguably the first to know. He’s also joked about polyamory before, but like Li said, didn’t seem to find Dotty’s pillow talk about Joyce very enticing.
Dotty and Joyce also seem to have chosen each other over the guys, no contest. Doesn’t seem like a great basis for a poly relationship. I’m usually all for polycule shipping if a character feels too strongly about their romantic interests to easily pick one, but that’s not how this has been playing out.
I think Joe wants Joyce romantically, same as Dorothy
Joyce on the other hand? I think she wants to dive as deeply as she can into sex drugs and anything else wild
I don’t know that I believe that, necessarily, but whatever Joyce DOES want, she’s going to TRY to justify it with romance-story tropes.
I respect that
But also I’m putting all my chips into “Joyce wants to be wild”
*visual of me physically pushing my chips at a casino*
Being serious, yea wherever her minds at I think she’ll try to justify it
Certainly not alone, but probably wouldn’t work out.
First of all, there is a difference between being okay with your partner pursuing another person, and being okay with cheating. Maybe Joe could have been okay with it, but for the past 24 hours Joyce has repeatedly disregarded him. If he has any self-respect (which he might not) he won’t be okay with that sort of behavior from a partner.
Second is Joe’s particular relationship with infidelity and self-worth. If Joe dismisses the cheating it is only because he thinks so little of himself that he thinks he deserves it.
Personally, I am rooting for the Joe/Joyce/Dorothy route as well, because I want to see it burn. None of them are sufficiently mature, thoughtful, or prepared to make it work out. Let it blow up and have them all hate each other. It would be dramatic
I think he might have been willing to consider it if she’d come clean about it BEFORE she hared off to the kiss. He clearly understood there were feelings there.
He might even have been willing if she’d’ve come back and they’d talked about it.
I don’t think the Joe who was traumatized out of “relationships” entirely by infidelity is going to be inclined to ANY sort of arrangement with the person who “kissed Dorothy a lot”, “went to him afterwards and not only didn’t tell him but engaged in sexual contact”, and then “went BACK to Dorothy and spent the night, romantically, with her”.
I think he would be ‘willing’ but not in a healthy way (for him)
I have to disagree with Sarah here. Yeah it’s great that Joe changed, and he might not be bad for Joyce but that doesn’t make him good for her either. I’m not saying he IS bad for her but there are things to consider.
Joe is/was Joyce’s first ever relationship. And it is/was Joe’s first relationship after he decided to drop his “Man Whore” ways.
I think it was pretty unlikely that they’d stay together. But I do agree that the betrayal sucks. Even if I’m on “Team Sickos” about Joyce and Dorothy .
And even if he IS good for her, I feel like there is some heavy good equals “the one” happening.
I think Sarah is less trying to argue an subjectively objective statement about Joe, and more is explaining her reversal in attitude towards Joe (since Joyce was trying to deflect from the topic of the their cheating being disapproved of by bringing up Sarah’s previous open opposition to Joyce and Joe dating).
I agree. She’s not saying “you need to stay with Joe because he’s good for you,” she’s just responding to Joyce asking why she cares about her cheating on him.
I actually have no idea what point you are making here
I think it isn’t about “stay with whichever relationship is best for you”. It is a situation where it doesn’t matter how good Joyce/Dorothy might be for Dorothy, because pursuing it without being honest to Joe is a fundamentally selfish and dishonest action.
So kissing Dorothy might feel great to Joyce, but at that same time, the choice to kiss Dorothy is Joyce being “morally bankrupt” to quote Danny.
Whoops *Joyce/Dorothy might be for Joyce
I mean, he’s quite clearly good for Joyce.
Just look at how he got her that blanket yesterday because he understood her needs and decided to do something nice on a whim.
That doesn’t mean he’s “the one”, but he’s absolutely good for Joyce.
yayyyy conflict finally
I’m against Sarah.
Joyce and Joe aren’t good for each other because she’s cheating on him while he’s incredibly upset by cheating.
Joe deserves better!
In Sarah’s defense, she said “He is good for you”. Not that she is good for him.
Final panel is kind of making the opposite point.
Does anyone else stay up way later than they should because they enjoy participating in the discussion too much to go to bed?
I do it because of the insomnia 😃
I have insomnia because of this 😄
For me
the commentsthe comic updates at 6 AM.Yes
Or miss an online meeting because…
I often show up late so i just scroll and comment and then come back in 30 mins – an hour to respond. Faster if I notice responses are coming quickly
I prefer to make it part of my morning routine and check in when I’m bored at work
I don’t have a clever quip or in-depth analysis, but just wanted to say I’m giddy for this storyline and the drama and heartbreak and heartwarming moments with developments for everyone.
You get it
I feel like the vibes are a little doomer tonight. Like Joe and Joyce breaking up is inevitable. (Not a lot thinking about Walky. Poor guy.) They already shipping Joe with other ladies. I thought we liked Joe/Joyce? I don’t know. I guess I’m just more optimistic this can resolve better than that. If one night kissing and cuddling is enough to destroy Joe and Joyce’s relationship it wasn’t worth much to begin with,
It’s not the lie, it’s the cover up. It’s not the kissing that’s the problem, it’s Joyce’s complete disregard for Joe’s feelings.
He just got done reminding her that infidelity was the reason why his parents split up, and she took the thoughtful gift he gave her and hid under it with another woman that she was romantically engaged with.
The level of disrespect from that is absolutely insane.
This exactly! The reason Joeyce cannot and should not survive this is plainly Joyce’s repeated disregard for Joe’s feelings in pursuit of her own interests. She could grow beyond that, but that’s typically something that takes years.
I also need to add that Joyce’s entire vibe with Joe, and this is as an avid Joeyce shipper since It’s Walky, has been “sure I’ll give it a go”. Joe has been massively more invested in Joyce compared to her interest and investment in him. Yes, that still could have been an interesting and fulfilling relationship, could have even lasted their entire lives! But Joyce is not and has not ever been head over heels for Joe, the balance in terms of power of affection is pretty skewed in their relationship.
Joyce and Dorothy has a lot more basis for a relationship, including mutual repressed pining for likely almost the entire time they’ve known each other. That’s why the comments have signed off of Joeyce and believe Jorothy will be the surviving ship.
Holy shit i comoletely forgot the blanket was Joe’s gift. Joyce, what the hell?
Joyce seems to have internalized that lying by omission is not true lying. hence why she able to have sex with Joe and take a gift intended for his ‘exclusive girlfriend’ without blurting out “I’m not cheating!” hoping Sarah calls that out too, atleast give Joe the option to return the gift Joyce!
Well walky is obviously not going to be the focus when the current comic is directly adressing Joe specifically. In a similar vein, you saw a lot of people talking about becky on other strips, but obviously not on this one.
Similarly, this is THE turning point strip. How joyce responds to this advice kinda determines everything about how smoothly this whole situation resolves. And IN this specific strip, joyce is at her worst. Activley trying to deflect from a correct assertion by bringing up a low moment in Sarah. I can see why people would assume she will make the wrong choice (although I think it could go either way)
Although I guess i’ll also add that you are gonna get some different perspectives. like, i would guess a lot of the people who are excitedly talking about who to pair Joe up with are not the same people who were yearning for Joe/Joyce to make it through this. Theres a lot of different people reading and although a lot really like that ship, theres always going to be some who aren’t that attatched.
Tbf I felt like Walky getting back with Dorothy was less serious then the last time it happened and felt more like set up to make her parallel in adultry with Joyce.
A lot of the paladins pretty much immediately swapped to “Joyce is trash and Joe deserves better” as soon as it became clear that we weren’t being set up for “Joyce rejects Dorothy”.
I’m still hoping for poly, but I never expected it to happen immediately or be immediately happy.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again that Willis has really pulled something off with the writing that nowadays Joe the guy with the do-list ranking women who spent most of his pre time skip screen time being a jerk that regularly said misogynist shit about women or anything related to being a lesbian, mostly at Joyce and Dorothy, is now the guy everyone is defending even in the comic itself. While Joyce and Dorothy, two women who took the blunt of pre character development Joe’s bullshit are now framed as the jerks.
Well sure, he’s a white male.
But seriously, Joe has changed a lot and he’s in the right here, so it’s not surprising he’s got his defenders. At the same time, I’m not sure how much that’s really Willis pulling anything off. Joe’s always had his defenders, even at his worst and since he started to change an awful lot of them have been happy to completely hand wave away his past issues. To me, that’s actually a failure of Joe’s characterization and it undercuts his development.
It’s me, I’m the paladin who immediately swapped to that.
Hey, just in case it needs to be said, no judgment on you for feeling that way 🙂
I HOPE Walky and Dorothy break up so he can date Amber. Or, alternatively, so he can no longer be dating Dorothy.
Every time i see your avatar from afar it look ig has blood all over gis shirt
It’s actually a long tongue over a one piece shirt. This pic was a self portrait from when I was in college and this is how I dressed back then.
Walky is the one most likely to sugest polyamory. It’s possible he remains dating Dorothy while Dorothy dates Joyce and Walky asks out Amber and/or AG.
Walky / Dorothy 2.0 is obviously cooked, and honestly good riddance to it. Blatant rebound on Walky’s part and blatant comphet on Dorothy’s part.
Joe / Joyce has avenues to continued existence, but while I can see the appeal for “Joyce attempts a polyamory” I think the ship sinking feels right to me. Maybe it can settle low enough that it might rise again, but Joyce having to deal with the fallout of genuinely hurting someone and Joe having to lock-in his character growth independent of a woman he was trying to fix himself for both feel like good character beats.
It is cooked and I think you’re basically right about the way it was going. I think that’s kind of a shame, even if it was baked in to the set up. I was never really happy with how their first relationship ended and they were obviously still into each other for a long time after. I’d hoped we could actually get a second take on them with both of them in very different places than they were the first time around. But no, that’s not where it was headed.
I feel like a single night of kissing and cuddling is enough to destroy and overwhelming amount of monogamous relationships. Like… it ends decades long marriages, destroys entire families, has started whole ass wars and gotten people smite in mythology.
Like, Joe and Joyce have been together like a week, there is zero reason to expect this relationship to withstand such a betrayal. If it had been discussed beforehand, sure, maybe, but Joyce and Dorothy are bungling approaching this from a potential poly standpoint (if that’s even something they wanted.)
I think context matters a lot for that. Making a premeditated decisions to sleep around or find intimacy with someone else behind your partner’s back when you’re in a long term committed relationship is different than spontaneously kissing the girl you’ve openly loved for months. I can understand Joyce and Dorothy getting caught up in those intense emotions for one night (within reason, if they’d slept together or crossed other intimate lines I think the problem is way more serious)
I am concerned by how okay Joyce seems to be with hopping back and forth between Joe and Dorothy, an attitude she showed before the kiss even happened. That actually feels unfair to Dorothy too. But overall this feels like a very brutal criteria Joyce and Dorothy are being held too. I didn’t know the margin of error was that razor thin.
I feel I need to clarify when I said “slept together” I meant sexually. Not them cuddling which falls well within their typical behavior.
I’ll speak only for myself: it’s not the spontaneous kissing that would be the dealbreaker, it’s that my partner did something they realized would hurt me and then chose to keep doing it rather than coming to me and talking about it. At that point it doesn’t really matter whether the pants stayed on or not.
Now if we’re talking about a years-long committed relationship, I’d at least consider sticking around and trying to repair things. But someone I’ve only known for months and dated for weeks? Heck no, I’d be out.
The hopping back and forth is definitely a problem and something we really need to get more insight into. What’s Joyce thinking there? Is she thinking?
But if this isn’t an insurmountable problem for JoJo, what is it? Joyce isn’t going to drop Dorothy and just go back to Joe. I guess poly is possible, but doesn’t seem to have even crossed anyone’s mind.
I think John Campell above articulated it better than I can. My take is if the girl you know is in love with your gf kisses your gf to me that kinda falls in line with what I’d expect could happen. It stings, but to me a conversation and clarification of boundaries and expectations resolves that before any real hurt is done.
While I personally enjoy the framing of them cucking Joe under his own weighted blanket as the ultimate betrayal of faith that will beckon the end of JoJo and every relationship near them. I don’t really think it’s that serious yet. Sarah is already grilling them for even doing that.
Yes, I totally agree that hopping back and forth feels like a massive FU to Dorothy. Like, I would’ve been rethinking things if I were her after Joyce came back from Joe having given him a BJ instead of breaking up with him. Mad “Nah babe I’m gonna leave my wife” energy. I felt bad for her.
It’s a red flag, but Dorothy is probably so fixated on finally having Joyce – the one thing she wanted more than anything, more than Yale! – means that she’s going to ignore it, and it gets to be something that can fester into something worse down the line.
See, in the vein of context mattering, there was that one strip back where Joe said to Joyce, paraphrased, “I want you to do what you want”.
I have a hard time, the more I look back at those strips, reading that as anything other than “I won’t be upset if you pick Dorothy, as long as you PICK Dorothy or me.” IMHO he was trying to give her a safe out for both of them, she rejected it, and then did the thing anyway.
I think it’s going to be a blow to the Joe + Joyce friendship, which bums me out more than the relationship. They could talk about things they couldn’t with other people, or at least didn’t. I don’t know if they can get back to that, at least not without a big timeskip.
At this point, I don’t think Joyce *deserves* Joe anymore. She’s the literal cliché of being happy with a good partner but still stepping out because of feelings.
And frankly, she’s all over the place. Whatever guilt she had about Joe upon talking with him, she apparently swallowed after swallowing *him* because now she’s just cavalier about the whole thing.
“Well then, you’ll be happy to hear I gave him a beejay last night.”
“…….”
I so want to see someone get the dial tone face when that truth is revealed.
Im love that “you know its wrong”.
Im wonder if Sarah play “if you dont tell him I will” card Joyce will counter with “as you do with your previous rommate” and regret it.
So drama
Oh Joyce is 1000% gonna lash out, it’s just a question of how hurtfully she does so.
Sarah actually giving Joe a chance and allowing him into her life and trusting him to do the right thing is making this conversation twice as devastating. She finally didn’t want this, and worse yet it’s happening the opposite of what she assumed — Joe, who is very sensitive to cheating, is in the blast zone of Joyce’s reckless behavior.
I’m loving how reckless and mean joyce is in this one. It’s a really compelling call back to all the small and petty ways she can act coming up in one place.
It makes sense, too, shes feeling very defensive, and probably a little scared. I would guess she genuinley loves both dororthy and joe, and her childish actions trying to keep both of them for as long as she can reflect that.
She doesn’t want to lose him, but isn’t willing to reject her feelings for dorothy for the sake of that. To her, what she feels towards dorothy is really joyful, and the idea of it being in any way morally wrong probably feels pretty hurtful, so she just deflects it and tries to point out something Sarah did instead.
100% agree!!
YES SARAH! YES! YES A MILLION TIMES!
Sarah just forgots to say to Joyce that she don’t disagree with Joe anymore.
And I won’t read the 200+ comments right now, it’s 2AM.
Yessssss it begins!!
Oh no no no no no. Way funnier would have been the suggestion made yesterday: that she was cross about the going to the protest and not telling anyone…
its not cheating if its doomed yuri
Did people really think they’d get away with this consequence free?
Mostly just the people who were up in arms about them cheating thought that. Some of them seemed very angry about that posibility as if it had already happened.
Which is an odd response, given how slowly time moves in this comic. An interaction that would take a couple minutes of real time takes place over a week or two in comics-time. Folks gotta remember the time dilation factor. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it never will… so to them I say, hold your horses. Watch and wait.
But I wanna preach about my superior morals nooowwww…
Sorry, no pontificating before you’ve eaten your vegetables. It’s in the fine print of the paladin’s oath.
It also seemed like there was a lot of interpreting “they should just have poly!” and “this is exactly right, I don’t care about the boyfriends’ feelings” comments as “we want no consequences”.
And of course, the vast, vast amount of people on every side of the discussion exaggerating for provocative reasons didn’t help.
Even some supporters thought so. I recall a lot of people basically expecting reactions would be more like how Sal acted upon seeing them hugging outside the building.
Very little fanfare or just kind of expecting it to happen. Hell, in the previous pages, a lot of people actually didn’t see Sarah being this upset about it. I saw much surprise in the comments.
No. “You guys think they’ll get away consequence free” was primarily something other people made up.
The issues were always “An act of cheating is being primarily portrayed as cute/romantic. I think it is bad to glamorize or romanticize any part of cheating,”
There was also a major contingent of “Joyce, in character, is behaving in a way I don’t understand given her arc” and “Joe and Joyce really got shortchanged, and it was just getting interesting!/Joe doesn’t deserve this shit after he worked so hard” among the so-called paladins.
I think there is some truth to both of those, although they don’t matter that much to me personally.
Joyce has never acted with such disregard to someone she cares about. She has made mistakes before out of ignorance, but the closest to this situation was the incident with Liz and self-righteous atheism. In that instance she genuinely thought she was right, and it was still a just case of Becky overhearing a bunch of venting.
I don’t really care about Joe/Joyce, so it doesn’t matter to me if they got shortchanged or not. They were cute, but frankly I am more interested in the Jennifer + Alice storyline (can we get back to that?).
Joe doesn’t deserve this shit, which is part of what makes Joyce shitty.
BorkBorkBork phrased it well:
“But I am concerned that the core message will be, ‘That was a really awkward time, and I regret hurting someone else, but it was worth it because now I’m with my soulmate.’
Which is just the sort of lie that people tell themselves while they are in the moment justifying cheating.
…
What I wish, is that someone would treat this as if it wasn’t just either something that “Oh noes, Dorothy and Joyce are goign to get in trooouble” or “Ooo, hot, cheating lesbians” or “The sinners shall burn in the fires of Mount Doom for eternity” or something.”
You’re making a great point about how Joyce primarily acts, and that she’s never this uncaring, intentionally, to anyone she cares about. That’s honestly why I felt like there were problems with the Joe/Joyce relationship for some time – Joe is head over heels for Joyce; Joyce just loves someone being head-over-heels for her. She cared about him, sure, as “the experienced boyfriend.” Whereas Joe was more interested in taking her out, getting to know her.
So I’m OK with this. Not because Joe deserves this – but because Joe deserves better than what he was getting.
I realized something, since that above bit you quoted, which you helped me see. This is a comic strip that moves at a snail’s pace. So whatever it *eventually* turns out the real moral of the story was – if there is one – we won’t know for two years anyways. That eventual narrative point doesn’t matter as much as what is happening now, in the moment.
Those moments you say are “primarily portrayed as romantic/cute” – these little happy adorkable moments of Joyce and Dorothy being precious and silly and funny and heartwarming – that’s what we’re using to reinforce the “Cheating is OK if it’s for your soulmate” and the “Cheating is OK when you’re doing it because you realize you’re queer” and the “Ooo hot lesbians” and the “Back in my day you had to agree to ‘go steady’ first for this to be cheating anyways” perspective. That’s why we feel uneasy about it now – not because the message *could* be bad, but the message *is* bad.
Other than Mike, who was clearly meant to be somewhere between a bit character, an antihero, and a non-villainous antagonist – Does Willis ever let us see any somewhat redeeming aspects of people he portrays as bad?
I can’t think of any. Walky’s mom has always been portrayed as problematic. Same with Mary. Same with Clint. Same with Toedad and Blaine and Carol and Ryan. I was absolutely shocked when Naiomi came and spoke to Ethan, and ALL she very very grumpilly basically said that she would rather Ethan be alive and gay than dead and closeted. That is the closest we’ve ever seen a “bad guy” be portrayed somewhere close to sympathetic. Willis works *really hard* to make sure that, if there are people in the comments section going, “But look you have to give Toedad a break, he’s just doing what he thins is right because he loves his daughter!” we can clearly say that person is a bigot because there is no ambiguity.
Not that I’m saying that Dorothy or Joyce are now “bad guys.” But what’s going on is being handled, not even with equal parts positive and negative, but has mostly been portrayed as positive up until VERY recently. It just feels very, very weird, for a comic strip that is so very focused on trying to tell these stories that essentially talk about morality in our modern age, for this one to act so laissez-faire to something which is objectively hurtful and cruel.
I think you are always better at describing this stuff than I. I truly appreciate how well you capture parts of what I am feeling about this.
Odo, you cannot speak for everyone.
Your “side” of this debate is bigger than you think it is and contains conflicting feelings.
Several people did worry pretty explicitly that there weren’t going to be any consequences: Jay on this very page is talking about being relieved to be wrong.
In this thread all Jay said was that they apologized for being impatient. In previous threads they commented on how the drawn out storyline was frustrating for them because they wanted it resolved immediately.
“I will keep throwing my tantrum till it’s over”
“NO. WE NEED ZERO CUTS FROM THIS STORY. I NEED RESOLUTION I’M GOING INSANE”
“I will concede time dilation is making this arc much more annoying than usual. I needz like, the next month of pages xD”
This reads to me less like “I think there will be zero consequences and that upsets me” as “I am impatient for there to be consequences.
I don’t speak for everyone, but is see far more people mocking people for “thinking there won’t be consequences” than that position is actually put forward.
It is a dishonest straw man.
It’s no more a dishonest straw man than “sickos are fuming!”, which is equally more popular as a comment than any sickos actually saying they’re upset.
It’s not the majority opinion, but it’s not no one at all, either.
And I am not making the argument that “sickos are fuming”. I am not defending that take.
I am saying “You’re mad because you think there won’t be any consequences” is a dishonest take. I am sure it is true of some people, but even with the example you gave I haven’t seen it be true among the majority.
I’d like to point out that the comment you are replying to said, “Did people really think they’d get away with this consequence free?”
Not, “Did everyone think that?” or “Did Odo think that?”
And the answer is no. People did not really think that.
You didn’t. I didn’t. I see no evidence that Jay did.
Is there someone out in the ether who might have thought that? Sure. With enough people that becomes probabilistically certain.
I am asserting, however, that most of the “they will face no consequences” perception is mostly coming from people misrepresenting arguments.
I mean, ask Jay. I can’t speak for him. It certainly seemed to me that he was worried there wouldn’t be consequences.
I also think a lot of people have said things that sounded like they were worried there wouldn’t be consequences. Big Z has said things that sounded like that, but it apparently wasn’t his real concern. You’ve said things that sounded like that, and you’re clarifying that it wasn’t your concern either.
There’s a difference between misunderstanding people and constructing straw men.
And by the way, when I said “It’s no more a dishonest straw man than “sickos are fuming!”, which is equally more popular as a comment than any sickos actually saying they’re upset,” it wasn’t an accusation that you were specifically making this argument.
It was just me pointing out that today’s comment section has two rather popular “reactions” to things that I don’t think are really happening.
I’ve been annoyed by one, you’re annoyed by the other, but after a good night’s sleep I don’t think either is actually a straw man.
Speaking purely for myself, most of my reactions were intended to be “I want consequences SOONER”, not “If I don’t see consequences immediately I believe they won’t exist”.
Yeah, I think that might also be true of other folks!
I just think it wasn’t an unreasonable interpretation of the literal words folks have been saying?
Just like I’m trying to acknowledge that despite my confidence that no one actually means “it’s homophobic to be mad about cheating”, I can see how some comments might read that way.
Hello I’m sorry I didnt respond to this sooner but at a singular point in time i commented in thinking the consequences might not be …. I dont wanna say severe but cant think of amother word enough. Like I was worried it’d not have the weight it deserved and I was thoroughly proven incorrect. We haven’t even gotten to the meat of it but I’m all in again I’m sorry for being an impatient little dick the past few weeks
@Jay, I genuinely don’t think you have anything to apologize for! I’m just glad the comic’s delivering things more of us want now. 🙂
The people who’re usually very militantly vocal about defending Joyce and Dotty’s cheating are surprisingly quiet right now
Pff.
I mean up till this moment they’ve actively been out of denial for what, 15 hours maximum? And have come to the conclusion basically 8 hours ago that they wanted more out of this thing. So.
Lol just funnin ya IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THE PROPER SARAH BLOWUP
of course it’s not about Walky XD
JUSTIIIIIICE
Okay now break it to em both carefully and then everyone go relocate to the Read floor’s resident polyamory experts and then we can all be good and kiss and stuff with 700% clear communications!
Oh my mistake AAAAAAAAAAAAAA! There that’s better
It’s 2 in the fucking morning, dude. People are trying to sleep.
It’s definitely been interesting to see the comments today as someone who’s been very vocally against them cheating for a long time now.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but for my part, it’s not that they’re cheating, specifically, that I defend. It’s that I’m always gonna cheer for queer girls, even if it’s the most toxic yuri you’ve ever seen.
I crave queer mess, because so often we’re not fucking allowed to be messily queer, and some of the comments the last couple weeks have proven that over and over.
Could you point to what sort of comments you are referring to? Was there something indicating that if Joe were the one cheating they would be more forgiving?
Because if being a mess means cheating then I don’t think queer girls should cheat, I don’t think queer boys should cheat. Non-binary people shouldn’t cheat either.
You’ve misread the comment if you think queer boys and queer enbies are allowed to be messy.
The comment was: “queer people aren’t allowed to be messy”. Queer people are given less leeway than straight percis etc people, both in real life and in fiction.
This is just a fact, there is no use arguing over it. Whether or not you agree that the comment section exemplifies it, the broader point is true, and also mostly subconscious, so no one is going to say “I’d be fine with this if it were two straight people”.
Sure, URM in general are given less leeway.
But I also don’t think people would be okay with the cheating if it was a straight person. I know I wouldn’t be.
So saying “queer people aren’t allowed to be messy” is true, but irrelevant unless we think a straight person would be getting away with the same behavior.
If Joe was cheating on Joyce do you think the audience would be more forgiving?
Sorry, I keep forgetting to type words.
“URM, queer people, and other marginalized groups”
First, I should probably say: I don’t think everyone would be okay with this if it weren’t two women. I do think different people would be upset. I also think there would be slightly less vitriol. Because I can just go back to the Jacob/Joyce cheating and see that there was less vitriol back then.
People weren’t “more okay with cheating”, but no one thought Joyce was taking advantage of Jacob, and no one thought she was going to force a kiss on him, and no one thought she was only interested in him because she was horny (even though Becky voiced that possibility in the strip itself), and no one started counter-shipping Joyce with men who were superficially similar to Jacob and hoping she’d hook up with one of them instead of telling Jacob she was interested.
It was noticeably different.
Also, if Joe specifically cheated on Joyce, I do actually think some people would be more understanding — Joe is one of the most popular characters in the comic at this point, and people bend over backwards to retcon away his previous bad behavior rather than acknowledging that his character growth started from a pretty bad place!
There’s been quite a few “what did Joe even do that was so bad” threads over the years, several of them since this arc started. Lots of “Dorothy is worse than Joe ever was”.
I think if Joe cheated on Joyce, there would be people blaming his dad for it, and people blaming Dorothy and Sarah and Rachel for it — they expected too little of him, they made him feel like he can’t be any better than this, they drove him to it.
I think if Joe had someone like Dorothy in his life — not Danny, let’s avoid adding that complication, but a female friend that people had been shipping Joe with for a long time, with whom he had a sudden moment of passion after years of Willis teasing that maybe he liked her that way, and a month of comics revealing that she felt the same way — then a lot of people would probably ship him with her, and be excited that they got together.
And some people would still be mad about the cheating.
But probably not quite as quick to declare Joe a bad person.
I mean lbr, they’d definitely blame the girl I just made up instead, but even if it was clearly 100% his fault, I think a LOT of us would be trying to understand his motivations and worrying for him.
I seriously doubt it would be 100% “yeah he sucks, set him on fire”.
Jacob/Joyce is different in a number of ways.
First Raidah is an unsympathetic character.
Second Joyce wasn’t trying to get Jacob to cheat on Raidah, she was trying to get Jacob to break up with Raidah. Still shitty, but it doesn’t involve deceiving Raidah.
Third, Jacob didn’t really reciprocate. It was Joyce being devious and Jacob being friendly. Once Jacob started feeling stuff, and once Joyce pretended he was her boyfriend, he broke things off. It was never framed as romantic, mostly it was framed as Joyce can be sneaky when she wants to be, and needs to learn boundaries.
So no, you wouldn’t get a strong blowback because a) there wasn’t cheating and b) cheating was not framed positively.
As for if people would excuse Joe cheating on Joyce, I can’t speak for the hypothetical people you describe, but as someone who does think Joyce and Dorothy are being super shitty I can tell you that I would probably be even more annoyed at Joe. More annoyed specifically because it would be a more boring storyline, with a defeatist message.
And yeah, I doubt it would be 100% yeah he sucks set him on fire… rather like how the response to this strip isn’t 100% saying Joyce and Dorothy suck.
But at the same time it seems like there is an awful lot of painting the dislike of cheating and how it has been handled as homophobic, without a whole lot of evidence.
I am sure there are some people out there who are biased against it because it is queer, but right now it seems like the comments section is mostly composed of queer folk. Latest results on the survey indicate a majority of folk are gender queer and a majority are not straight.
Now queer people can certainly be homophobic and sexist, but maybe we are also leaping to the “you don’t like it because you are prejudiced” real quick without a lot of evidence.
1. Dorothy wasn’t trying to get Joyce to cheat on Joe, either! She mostly specifically tried to get Joyce to stop crossing lines, but was clearly also overwhelmed by her own feelings sometimes (like when they mutually agreed to go “do laundry” together, though it also wasn’t Dorothy who defined that as having sex, and it’s possible Dorothy thought of it as “yes, we should go masturbate, so that we won’t do something stupid and regrettable due to horniness”).
2. I don’t think this is an accurate description of what happened. “Once Joyce pretended she was his girlfriend” is actually when they started crossing lines together, and Joyce used the opportunity to point out that it was weird that Jacob had told his brother all about her, but not even Raidah’s name, and then Jacob agreed (for the second time) to keep pretending she was his girlfriend in front of his brother, and then he agreed out loud with his mouth that pretending to be a couple with her felt nice, and then he kissed her, and then he told her that she should have just told him how she felt, because then he might be her boyfriend now, but he didn’t like how all of this had gone down. Then he went and broke up with Raidah, and presumably avoided Joyce for a while (off panel).
3. There WAS a strong blowback. Like I said.
4. The kiss was definitely cheating, and Jacob kissed Joyce while she was in the middle of arguing that he didn’t need to break up with Raidah because “nothing even happened” (between her and Jacob).
5. No one is actually saying “it’s homophobic to dislike cheating”, though. And I specifically did not say people are upset because they’re homophobic.
I said some of the comments have made queerphobic arguments, and I noted that there’s been more vitriol than there was last time. Not more people being upset, but people who are upset expressing themselves in a more vitriolic way that lines up with certain negative queerphobic stereotypes, like predatory lesbians, and depraved, hypersexual bisexuals.
It’s fine that you haven’t personally noticed this, but when you see “people sure are mad about queer girls kissing”, take a breath and remember that actually, yes, some people are mad explicitly about that.
Some people have complained loudly that Joyce “should” be straight, some people have complained that Willis is “pushing an agenda”, some people have sneered that everyone who thinks Joyce and Dorothy are cute is just “horny” for yuri.
There’ve been accusations that “porn lord Willis” is only doing this for money.
If none of that sounds queerphobic to you — okay. You’re entitled to your opinion, I guess, but you’ve gotta at least realize that it’s pretty blatantly queerphobic to a lot of other readers, and sometimes they’re gonna complain about it.
It’s still not fair to say “EVERYONE who’s mad is being homophobic”, and I’ve pushed back on that when I’ve seen it, but MOST of the comments that are being read that way haven’t said “everyone”, they’ve just said “people” or “a lot of people”, which are not the same thing.
I think I accidentally reported your comment! I was just tapping the screen randomly! Sorry!
Woopsie – David/mods don’t delete Odo’s comment!
Well, if people keep going on and on and on about the C-word isn’t enough, maybe we could make it more dramatic/boring/aggressive by having a lack of surprising quietness.
Define cheating, without assuming monogamy.
Define what is and isn’t cheating in a way that isn’t a personal opinion.
Let’s have a conversation between Joyce and Dorothy about what they are expecting/wanting here.
Explain why fictional characters doing drama is unacceptable when a comic is made of drama.
Etc etc, yada yada.
Or we can just stop reading comments containing the c-word, and be surprisingly quiet because we don’t want a comments section full of arguing back and forth.
Nobody is “assuming monogamy.” Joe and Joyce have already had discussions in regards to their relationship and what is cheating. Way back when Joyce talked about “doing laundry with Dorothy.” It’s even further emphasized in this strip here: Joyce isn’t feigning ignorance, or pretending that this isn’t wrong. Her actions, their decision to break up with their current partners, Dorothy’s concerns about Walky, and the secretive way they’re going about it, all state that we’re not “assuming monogamy,” we are deducing it with the same way that someone deduces that something which looks, walks, and quacks like a duck is likely a duck.
Cheating is *defined* by there being an agreed-upon expectation and then breaking it. That’s why it’s called “cheating”. You can see parallels in other different usages of the word – cheating on your taxes, means breaking the rules for your benefit. Cheating on a board game, means breaking the rules to get what you want. Cheating in a video game, is inputting in secret codes or using a device to manipulate the game data in a way that circumvents the intended play.
You can try Dictionary.com if you’re having a hard time believing these interpretations.
And I’ve been reading ever since the Drama Tag was pulled in Shortpacked. I’m all for drama. But heroes suddenly turning into villains but the narrative treating them like heroes, is usually when the audience gets up and leaves the theater.
It is easy to define cheating outside of a monogamous context because Poly people can still cheat. The essence of Polyamory is that it is consensual and honest. Cheating is by its nature not consensual and not honest.
If you are in a polyamorous relationship and you’ve agreed that you won’t have sex with other people without informing your existing partners, then if you break that agreement you are cheating. Cheating is about violating the mutually understood bounds of the relationship.
As a poly person, defining cheating outside of monogamy is easy:
Cheating is anything that breaks the rules of the relationship. Those rules can be explicitly stated or they can be implicit/assumed based on any number of cultural factors.
You may be thinking “wow, that’s not helpful — how can I follow rules that haven’t been discussed and might differ based on cultural context?”
And you’d be right, but that’s one of the many, many reasons why dating is fraught with peril regardless of your mono/poly status — entirely too much of what we might consider the rules of polite behavior and how not to harm your partner are just sort of assumed.
The fact is, though, if you break one of those unstated/implicit rules, and your partner is hurt and accuses you of cheating, “I didn’t know that was a rule, we never agreed on that” isn’t gonna get you out of the fact that you hurt your partner in a way THEY thought was obvious.
Meanwhile, I’m just going, “Yes, YES THE POPCORN WILL FLOWETH SOON!”
Give me a break, I went to bed early.
Oh yeah, go Joyrothy! Put a sock in it, Sarah!
Is that better?
Yes, thank you. Usually you guys are up this late – I was worried.
I’m talking a lot, but nobody is paying attention.
Maybe I’ll to do the Carla and invest in a neon…
This is now just a meme rofl!
No College student anywhere would care for “cheating” that has been happening for…*checks watch* a couple hours.
We are entering into absurd territory if Sarah acts so much “flabbergasted” lol!
I don’t really think that’s true.
Some bongos I knew in college believed that even moving on after a breakup without permission from one’s ex was tantamount to cheating. Strongly enough so that police and court had to be involved.
Bongos be crazy.
How would that even work? The part where civil authorities got involved, I mean. I have trouble imagining the cops hearing “come quick officer, Sally is cheating on Jimmy with Bobby!” and rushing to the scene, I have even more trouble imagining a judge taking on such a case. As ethically repugnant as adultery is, as far as I’m aware, there is no explicit law against it (at least in the States.)
Or, and I’m only realizing this as I type… I suspect there were a number of escalating steps between “cheating on Jimmy with Bobby” and litigation.
Meanwhile, I’m just assuming there were a few simple, stupid steps:
Rico breaks up with Tony.
Rico starts dating Lola without checking with Tony that they’re BOTH ready to move on.
Tony sees them hanging out at the bar, and then the punches flew, and chairs were smashed in two.
Is it alright if I still prefer the whimsical Looney Tunes-esque version in my head?
It is not only all right, it’s encouraged.
What does that even mean?
How about cheating that only went on for a half hour or so? Like they hooked up with someone else at a party and then came back to you. No one in college would care, right?
This argument is the weirdest to me. Like, I get the spontaneous kiss with a new crush followed by a breakup. It’s still gonna hurt, but it’s not the end of the world. It’s a little out of order, but not really much worse than getting dumped always is. But we’re already moving out of that territory. They had the opportunity to talk to the boys and passed it up. Joyce doubled down with her first bj. Then went back to go sleep with Dorothy. That’s not a direct verbal lie, but it’s definitely lying by implication.
That’s about where I am – the initial kiss while ‘under fire’ in the park, I’m broadly fine with, especially so since the initial reaction was ‘well I guess we have some tough conversations with boys waiting when we get home’.
And then they chose ‘more kisses’ instead of actually having those conversations. And giggled and joked about it. (Oh, it’s on Dorothy’s to do list! Right at the bottom in teeny print, see? Hee hee!) That’s where the contempt really comes in for me.
Joyce at least pretended to try to talk to Joe. Dorothy hasn’t even given Walky that much. (Though I do think he’s been less attached this time around, so there’s a non-zero chance he hasn’t actually been considering Dorothy his girlfriend the way she thinks he has. He does, after all, know that sometimes what Dorothy means is ‘I don’t have time/inclination to girlfriend you, but I expect you to still boyfriend me’ thanks to their first breakup way back, and sometimes Walky does learn what he’s taught.)
You definitely do not attend the college I did, if you think this is the case. I’ve witnessed entire dorm friend groups have shattered over things like this, more than once.
In fact I’d say college kids are MORE likely to suffer friend group imploding incidents over things this minor than older, more mature adults.
Right? Everyone’s on board with “Dumbing of Age, not Smarting of Age” when it comes to “so they (J&D) can make myopic and hurtful relationship choices” but then conveniently forgets that will also apply to “so they (the rest of the cast) can make myopic and hurtful friendship choices”
Folks frequently forget this with the concept of “free speech.” Yes, a person is allowed to spew whatever ignorant bile and venom you want so long as they do not physically attack people. I, however, am also free to call them a massive gaping asshole for it and decide I don’t want to hang out with them.
I’ve seen college kids friend-groups explode over WAY less. I think you’re underestimating.
that…is such out of touch bullshit I’m gonna die laughing. Especially these days bro, there is no crowd more moralistic than zoomer college students who spent their developmental years in the pandemic. Hell I was an annoying “I can out woke you just watch”, grew up on 2010s Tumblr type when I was a fresher. Maybe not fuckboy fratbros but your average college kid would absolutely tear their friend a new asshole for this. Especially since it’s 1000% going to fuck up the friend group. ESPECIALLY someone emotionally scarred and slow to open up like Sarah who’s lost a group to drama already
Heh, at least when I went to school in the late 1999s, even the fuckboy fratbros (I was a fratbro, but grew out of fuckboy-hood (look, it was a music frat, okay, I’m still a nerd)) would look serious askance on “dude, you just started dating and you’re doing this shit? You’re either sleeping around or you’re not, but you gotta pick a lane.”
L take, rip bozo
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/03-trystin-in-the-wind/detox/
For anyone else who needs a cackle over the iron about it all back when Dorothy was even further in denial. Was just rereading. Enjoy yourself.
I am so glad for Sarah getting friends that help her learn how to talk to each other normally. “Don’t jettison people because it’s convenient” indeed! In your pessimist face, Raidah!
I ran across this one the other day, which I find very amusing in current context.
Huh. 🙂
Man, when the dumbening keeps on dumbening, the age, it ages huh
See, this is the only reason why that one parent’s advice early in the strip – that everyone in the dorm create one giant, er, ‘friendship’ pile, doesn’t work.
Too many hurt feelings in among the hormones effervescent in everyone’s bloodstreams.
I tell thee, though, if a girl had thrown my younger, unmarried self the ‘whither thou goest, there goest i’ line to me on what is the closest thing to a battlefield in most modern Americans’ experience, then I would NOT have let that one go*. Everything else could be worked out later. Agape and eros are not as distinct as some philosophers would argue.
Or, as an ex-girlfriend told me, I am SUCH a romantic. (She’s the one with nice-smelling hair.)
*There’s a great scene in a Vorkosigan SF novel where our physically stunted hero Miles finally realizes years later what would have happened if he had actually managed to clasp hands with a woman who had saved a shuttlecraft-load of her fellow escaping POWs by manually freeing the ramp door to close, but was about to fall several thousand feet herself. Unlike his dreams and nightmares of saving or almost saving her, with his small body weight, he would have been sucked out with her.
Because, the woman he’s recounting this to realizes, he would not have let go.
You can say fuck pile it’s ok
High key, I super love that line from Ruth.
Finally!! Someone said it. Preach Sarah!!!
Nice
And there we have it….
And that it came from Sarah.. even more so.
I liked this ship better when it was unrequited. Dorothy and Joyce as a ship is somehow boring even with all this drama.
As someone who is poly, the amount I see a poly ending for this bandied about in the comments, not just as a “wouldn’t it be great” but as a “something Willis would realistically do”, really makes me feel my fellow poly people have been in the community overlong. The view of poly lifestyles by wider society is like a circus, and it does not and likely will never have the popular support as a marginalised identity the way LGBTQIA+ identities have. There’s plenty of debat in both poly and LGBTQIA+ communities whether polyamory should belong under the umbrella, it does not currently in an official context, though I am someone who thinks it should, as I think some for some people being polyamorous is an identity and it is certainly viewed unfairly within the context of wider society.
The point is though, that none of these people are poly aware or poly prepared. Even if you understand that about yourself, poly takes a notoriously large amount of work to implement and maintain, largely because we have grown up in a society with thousands of years of religion-rooted monogamy as not just the default, but the only way acceptable. We also struggle with perceptions of polygamy as brought about by instances like those in Mormonism where having multiple partners is a transparent bid to implement such practices as outbreeding the competition and often familial abuse. The comic has shown no interest so far in seriously exploring what a socialised default to monogamy means when multiple people are romantically involved – it has instead been relegated to a side fact and bit of a joke for Sierra, a very minor character.
So saying, don’t let me harsh your vibe. I’d love a Joeyceothylkymber polycule too, I just don’t see a path having been laid for realistically exploring that – history with this comic and the ones before it tell me this situation will probably be drama fodder and teaching moments. I find it more respectful to tackle this in-comic rather than the Ruth/Billie split over the Timeskip, but this will pretty certainly result in the wholesale destruction of these relationships and eventual monogamous dynamics down the line.
Out of curiosity, as someone who is a member of the polyamorous demographic*, do you have any recommendations for media that has instances of positive and accurate representation of poly people and relationships?
* I didn’t know what the correct or preferred terminology on this is. I waffled between words like “community” and “lifestyle,” but settled on “demographic.” I realize that particular selection might come across as overly-clinical, but it seemed the most neutral word I could think of that (as far as I know) avoids any negative connotations or harmful stereotypes.
As someone who is poly, the amount I see a poly ending for this bandied about in the comments, not just as a “wouldn’t it be great” but as a “something Willis would realistically do”, really makes me feel my fellow poly people have been in the community overlong.
— There is a polycule in the comic.
— Joyce has asked them curious questions, though mostly in bonus comics (in the books and on Patreon).
— Walky suggested it to Lucy more than once, though it’s hard to tell how serious he was about it because he’s Walky.
— I think you should search for “polycule” and “poly” on Willis’s tumblr.
Also yes, poly is inherently queer, I say as someone who’s queer in other ways but not poly.
It’s literally a relationship mode that is outlawed completely on all but one continent, and Africa has many asterisks.
If that’s not queer, we’ve entirely lost the plot.
* a relationship mode that’s illegal even between fully consenting adults, I shouldn’t have to clarify that but let’s do it anyway ugh.
I have seen some straight ass poly people in my day
I think this points to the fact that heterosexuality is not just “two people of different genders in a relationship”.
Straightness is also about the larger structure and roles of the relationship.
When I’ve gone on dates with straight women, there have been some times where I felt the pressures of heterosexuality, where I felt like the relationship expectations were pressuring me to perform a particular representation of masculinity.
I haven’t felt that nearly as often on dates with queer people, only sometimes on dates with guys where it felt like there were expectations to adopt certain roles or norms.
“Straight” poly relationships would be those that conform strongly to heterosexual relationship norms.
Not making an argument here about whether Poly counts as queer. That sort of labeling isn’t what interests me.
I didn’t say they couldn’t be heterosexual, I said they’re still queer.
“Straightness” as a class is like whiteness, it’s defined by exclusion. I’m not the one saying poly people aren’t “normal”, that’s pericisheterosexism, friend!
* that’s pericisheterosexist society
* it’s society saying they’re “not normal”, and since they’re not normal in a specifically sex and or gender way, even when everyone involved is a consenting uncoerced adult, that makes them queer
Gesundheit. *offers handkerchief*
Sarah must HATE IT that she has to be the idealistic, upstanding moral one in this situation… and she is against Joyce and Dotty. That’s some “World flipped upside down” kind of situation.
Fucking finally!
Yup. If Joyce at least doesn’t have a moment of realisation and collapse into a serious moral crisis over this, then I have to say I don’t understan her character at all anymore.
That is bad, because without character continuity none of this will mean anything.
Joyce does have a history of doing things rashly and then regretting it after the high has worn off.
I don’t see how you personally don’t understand her mean there isn’t character continuity
Ayeup. Justly earned, and a fun position to be in: the work you did to get Sarah to trust Joe a little more worked! Hooray! Wuhoh!
Seeing Sarah, who is usually drawn chin up like she is in the first panels, looking up at them to make her plea is very impactful. Plus the sunrise colors? Delicious Sarah content, love my girl
As many others here have said already… Thank you for saying it, Sarah.
Sarah’s the only one with a lick of sense this entire plotline
Just when we thought the battle was won, that there could finally be peace…
Sarah sides with the Paladins.
And the conflict flares up once more.
Fuck it, I guess I’m a Sarah/Joe shipper now. Neat.
Awww…if it’s not the consequences of my actions. Dammit. Whoever saw this coming…
SARAH!!! <3
i still don’t actually think joe is 100% good for her, and she’s certainly not being good for him right now. he disregarded what she said about not being too confrontational with her mom. not saying his motives were bad or he’s not grown as a person since the start of the comic, but that was the moment that made me more skeptical of them as a couple when i’d been trying to have an open mind about it. now joyce is disregarding his feelings, too, in a more blatant and less impulsive but well intentioned way. i do like joyce/dorothy and sometimes like “messier” ships but at this point i just wish joe/joyce had never been a thing, tbh.
I love this! Sarah saying the responsible thing and then that getting overwhelmed by her sincere desire for Joe not to get hurt
Joyce herself here so badly wants to just chase pleasure, tired of caring
Love these character turns
Compare this to Sarah at the beginning of the comic, when Joyce was dating Ethan:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/lose/
“Sticking my nose in other people’s relationship drama ain’t exactly my thing.”
Well it is now, and it’s largely because of Joyce’s influence that Sarah has changed and grown so much. The reason she cares, Joyce, is because of you. Oops!
It’s so good
That link brought me here
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/curiosity/
Sarah is right:
– Cheating on Joe/Walky is shitty. IIRC cheating is a line Joe has never crossed and he hasn’t done anything to “deserve” being cheated on (not that you should ever wrong someone like that, but it is more understandable in some situations vs others)
Sarah is wrong:
– You don’t owe someone a romantic relationship. Relationships need to be voluntary, based on mutual interest, especially if they’re only dating, and not, like married. There’s nothing inherently immoral about breaking up with someone you’ve been seeing for a month in college because you realize you like someone else better.
I don’t know that Sarah means she has to date him because he’s good for her. Joyce asked why Sarah cares, and the answer is because he’s good for her and a good person. Joyce doesn’t owe him a relationship but she owes him better than cheating on him
Sarah is not saying that Joyce owes Joe a relationship. I don’t know why people are misreading her like this.
Joyce is asking why Sarah cares about her cheating on Joe when she was so adamant against them being together at first, and Sarah responds by saying that she had been wrong because Joe has proven himself to be a good person and a good partner to Joyce, who doesn’t deserve this level of betrayal and this lack of consideration. I don’t think she would be this upset if Joyce had just broken up with Joe to be with Dorothy! But she didn’t. She’s cheating on him with Dorothy. And that’s wrong of her to do.
It’s kind of like how no one was upset about how Asher left Jennifer. Jennifer was a shitty partner who was treating him poorly an was actively saying she would be fine if he left.
So Asher left, and didn’t come back.
Honestly it is also kind of similar to Joyce interjecting into Jacob/Raidah. We don’t see Raidah as a particularly bad partner, beyond just her regular “power and respectability above all else” vibe. But because she was essentially a villian, we don’t feel bad when Joyce acts poorly towards her.
With Asher it’s important to note that he only left after trying to confirm if he was in fact Jennifer’s boyfriend or “someone who thought he was her boyfriend” he pursued Ethan after Jennifer picked the later category confirming they weren’t a couple.
You’re right that Raidah might have been a perfectly fine girlfriend but we do also know that she seems to form all of her relationships calculatedly based on how much they will benefit her social status. So I really felt no sympathy for her when Jacob dumped her
It often astonishes me how strangely people read comics, distorting what is actually on the screen to fit their own preferences, prejudices etc.
It has taught me some things about humans, and how isolated we are in our little pocket universes and delusions.
Every human mind is a universe unto itself, no question. On a less grandiose note, this is especially true with the rise of algorithms and content feeds that create compartmentalization in people with regards to things like current events, trends, memes, anything you can think of.
It is wild how different the worlds that I and, for instance, my conservative relatives live in. I’ve had them ask me about “scandals” I’ve never even heard of, and likewise they’re completely in the dark about basic stuff that is publicly available information.
Right? Where are they getting that little bit of eisegesis? All I see is Sarah saying is to end the current partnership before starting a new one. It ain’t that they aren’t allowed to see other people, they’re free to move on, just don’t go behind people’s backs.
All relationships (healthy ones at least) are based on good-faith communication and consent between all parties involved. If Joe and/or Walky decide to open up their previously exclusive monogamous relationship, that is fine. If they decide that kind of romantic arrangement is not something they want to participate in, that’s also fine… but in order to make that decision, they need to be given all the relevant information.
You CANNOT just suddenly go full Darth-Vader-to-Lando-Calrissian “I have altered the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further.”” to someone in a co-equal partnership. If your argument wouldn’t hold up in court, you might be crossing a line.
Enthusiastic, informed consent is critical for a happy relationship.
If Joe isn’t informed he cannot give informed consent. If Joe says yes just because he thinks he deserves it or is afraid of losing Joyce otherwise, then it isn’t enthusiastic.
Like, the whole bj thing gets extra shitty when we consider that it was bookend on both sides by the affair. “Don’t deceive people and have sex with them” is a pretty low bar to cross.
And Joe actually does a good job with the whole “enthusiastic, informed consent” thing. His whole “I’m a slut” thing was precisely because he wanted people to know he wasn’t looking for anything committed. And when Liz was not enthusiastic he immediately backed off and checked in.
Personally I hope Joe learns to appreciate himself more. The objectifying misogyny was bad, not the sleeping around was not.
Ah! Thank you for adding that “enthusiastic” variable to the equation. It hadn’t occurred to me, but I totally agree.
Actually “enthusiastic” has received some blowback.
From ace people and other people with low sex drives, for whom sex can be more of a “yeah sure” activity than an “enthusiastic” activity, but who still have the right to define consent for ourselves.
And from, you know, sex workers.
See, in this context I just took “enthusiastic” consent to mean, not so much it’s normal everyday meaning, but rather as an opposite to “coerced.”
Uncoerced is fine, as long as the person you’re talking to doesn’t immediately go, “AHA, but they’re being coerced by money!”
Sex workers have been extremely clear that it’s patronizing and infantilizing and dangerous to suggest they can’t do their jobs without being sexually assaulted, and this same logic is used all the time to delegitimize their reports of having actually been sexually assaulted.
Maybe “non-coerced” is a better term. Specifically I am looking for positive desire rather than fear of consequences.
So an ace person might want to have sex because they want to express care for their partner. But if an ace person is agreeing to sex only because they are afraid that their partner will leave them, or some other negative consequence then that isn’t a healthy relationship.
And I don’t think we need to say it was assault in that situation, so long as non-coerced consent is still the goal. If you truly believe that your partner is fully willing then I don’t think that counts. But we need to be working with sincere belief, not just excuses of ignorance.
For sure.
It’s tricky! Communication is so important. 🙂
(Replying here since I ran out of replies.) To that argument I would say that there is a difference between coercion and an exchange. Coercion is the kinda stuff that the Judge Claude Frollo’s of the world do, the “sleep with me or I’ll burn you at the stake” as opposed to “here is a list of services offered along with the price for each.”
I agree *completely*, I’ve just definitely seen anti-sex work “””feminists””” argue that all sex work is coerced, and somehow uniquely, unlike all the other labor we are all doing under capitalism 100% of our enthusiastic free will lol.
Most of the people weighing in don’t have any experience with with sex work at all….
from what i’ve seen, if you’ve been a dick once in this comic and you’re not specific characters, your actions will get interpreted by the absolute worst lens possible.
Good news, if you’re not a white guy, you don’t even have to be a jerk!
You can just not help the protagonists with something they want, and you’re a jerk forever.
Which really does a disservice to those of us who actually spend the time and effort to be ACTIVE jerks. Kids these days, getting participation trophies in jerk-craft. Such a lost art.
My favorite part is where different parts of the fanbase will argue vehemently over who gets a pass and who is being perpetually interpreted in the worst light.
It kinda amazes me how many people are misunderstanding what Sarah is saying in this strip. I thought it was pretty clear what she’s saying. Dot, you’ve got it correct here.
As someone who said “Oh, no, Sarah, don’t try to fix this by maybe encouraging Joyce to go back to Joe,” which I personally have said I really really really don’t think this conversation will progress that way, here’s my concern:
For all that Sarah is right about what’s going on, because she hasn’t said anything about the protest yet, it’s not 100% clear to ME as a reader in this moment if Sarah is aware of just how far Dorothy/Joyce have gone now. If she doesn’t know about the protest kiss or the kissing at the dorm, of Joyce’s not-talk with Joe afterwards, all she knows right now is that Dorothy/Joyce have taken a cartoon watching session and turned it into a cuddle session and a whispered confession.
Now, that still sucks if you’re Joe, or someone who cares about the fallout of this situation. But it’s arguably more salvageable than a “public make out session, then some more kissing outdoors, then actively choosing to decieve Joe and have a cuddle sleepover.” IF Sarah doesn’t know all of that, and thinks it’s only hushed mumbles under the covers in a dorm, there may be a desperate part of her mind that believes Joyce can still “fix” this–even if that’s breaking up with Joe but having it be more amicable– without officially betraying Joe so badly. And clinging to that, she might try to encourage Joyce to reconsider the cuddles and whispers and work something out with Joe, because he’s good for her and doesn’t deserve a betrayal. Flawed, especially given what we know? Very much so. But possible in Sarah’s “I don’t want to see Joe hurt” emotional turmoil. It’s also possible that in a confrontation like this, Sarah finds Joe better for Joyce not because “straight relationship” but because of how Dorothy/Joyce has started with cheating and such. I think there’s a difference between Sarah liking the idea of Joyce/Joe because she sees it as a good relationship for Joyce, and Sarah demanding Joyce go back in the closet and be with a man because she owes a man a relationship.
I can obviously only speak for me, but I never meant to imply “Sarah wants Joyce back in the closet and date a man because Joe deserves a relationship” as the concern. That’s obviously not what Sarah means here in that harsh of a way, or something Sarah would ever generally advocate for. As much as she might look back and realize she was wrong about Joyce/Joe, and wish things could be better to spare Joe’s feelings, I would never think it’s about “forcing Joyce back into a straight relationship.” More… “in her desperation to spare people’s feelings, Sarah might try and corral people and relationships in a way that is ultimately not helpful, because this ship has sailed much further than she already knows.”
Say it with me folks!
Sarah never said, nor implied, that Joyce owes Joe a continued relationship!!! “He’s good for you” is exemplifying how her assessment of his has changed! She made it very clear that her issue here is the cheating!!!!!
Fucks sake…
I think some of the commenters here learned a whole other version of English that I didn’t. Same vocabulary, completely different definitions. Bc that’s the only reasonable explanation for these INSANE reads. Or maybe I’m just losing my mind and need stronger meds
As someone who’s canonically losing their mind and needs stronger meds, I agree with your sentiment.
I agree. And (though I obviously get the humor here!) I don’t think this should be considered the Paladin position. Like Sarah is probably the central position, while Sicko is “cheat early and often” and Paladin is “Joyce must end up with Jacob, her original and one true love.”
This was a reply to Dot, but apparently refreshing the page makes it lose the reply-from. Oops.
Can I be a sicko but only because the drama is fun? Sarah coming in with that sick disapproval and sick change of heart about Joe.
Fucking sickos all over. Paladins are striking back.
At this point I’m wondering if, with so many people so eagerly adopting the sickos vs paladins terminology, we should emphasise the third faction so many of us are REALLY in:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-15/02-the-one-where-jocelyne-returns/disappeared/
We’re trash goblins who crave mess, and are not ashamed!
Honestly, I have a ton of respect for this position. It is the sort that cheers when the villain shows up, not because they support the villain, but because they support the villain, but because it means things are about to get interesting.
“trash goblin” might well be following the same impulses that inspired Greek tragedies. You don’t watch them for a Happy Ending, you watch them because things go wrong, which creates drama, which creates catharsis.
That’s where I’m at. Allegedly that’s what the sickos are. Tho for me the drama is more of a healing salve for my pain over the ship I find more interesting getting burned down
What I think is very refreshing about Sarah here is that her perspective mirrors a lot of erstwhile paladins, including me: that she had JUST come around on Joyce and Joe as a couple, and she pulls this shit? Seriously?
Yeah, Sarah definitely feels relatable to me right now.
I don’t think Joyce/Jacob has really been proposed as anyone’s position.
It is more about cheating>sapphic kisses rather than the reverse. When Joyce kisses Dorothy (again) is the reaction “How cute” or “How horrible”. Then response indicates how you are primarily interpreting the scene.
Is this a love story of Joyce and Dorothy? Overcoming obstacles to be together. Their love was forbidden but they did it anyway. Now they need to handle the consequences, but that it okay because it was worth it to be together.
Or is this a story of Joyce and Dorothy being shitty people, hurting people close to them, and maybe becoming less shitty in the process.
You are incorrect, Joyce/Jacob had plenty of supporters. It was the exact same paladins versus sickos divide back then.
Joyce/Dorothy has more shippers because it’s been a longer, slower burn. That is the major difference.
And while some people are just “cheering for queer girls regardless”, I promise you there’s also been a noticeable increase in hostility this time, especially in the form of hypersexualizing Dorothy’s interest in Joyce and painting it as predatory.
So I think it shakes out to about even.
Back then sure, but I haven’t seen it crop up much in this arc. It is one thing to ship people when they are actively pursuing each other, it is another thing when that hasn’t been the focus in… years?
Okay, I don’t think I understood where this comment was coming from, then. Was it a reply to something specific?
Sorry, I think I was trying to reply to “Sarah is probably the central position, while Sicko is “cheat early and often” and Paladin is “Joyce must end up with Jacob, her original and one true love.”” and it got disconnected.
AhHAH, that helps, thank you!
I think this is the worst Joyce has ever been.
She has made a lot of other mistakes, but generally those were naive or the result of her upbringing and trying to grow past that.
Her original homophobia was drilled into her since childhood. Objectifying Sal, or belittling Dina were rude, but also coming from a place of ignorance.
Trying to break up Jacob/Raidah was bad, but Raidah also sucks so it doesn’t feel as bad since Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Again Joyce failed to respect Jacob, his boundaries and his agency, but this once again seems like a regular “learning how to be around people” experience.
This is an instance where Joyce knows full well that what she is doing is wrong. She is fully aware that it will deeply hurt someone, and the person it will hurt is a good person, who she supposedly cares about, and to whom she has a duty of care and consideration.
But she is choosing to cheat anyway, and when confronted by it her first instinct it to minimize and deflect.
People make mistakes and do bad things, but if you are telling yourself “people make mistakes so it is okay for me to do this bad thing” then it isn’t a mistake. It is you choosing what sort of person you want to be.
I contend that even though it was done out of ignorance and not malice, and no one should hold it against her too much, Joyce indulging in Ethan’s ex-gay self-harm is the worst thing she’s ever *done*, but I think there is an argument that this is the worst she’s ever *been*. This is all of her worst flaws expressing themselves in really ugly ways one after another.
Yes! There have been many previous instances of her being a well-meaning or naive person doing bad things, but this is her being deliberately, consciously immoral, doing something she knows is wrong AND to someone she actually cares about (unlike Raidah)
“No one should hold it against her too much” Really? Nooo way man, if I had a friend like this, I would be raking them over the coals to get their ass back on track. Like Sarah here, really.
I think I misread the structure of the comment, just ignore me, I apparently can’t parse two different instances of events in one paragraph. Shame shame shame
She’s already played the gay card, think she’ll use the autistic card or the “I’m a poor repressed homeschooled ex fundie” card next to justify her actions?
I find it difficult to condemn the Joyce/Ethan phase too much because most of it was just being good friends.
If it seemed like Joyce was spending a lot of time reinforcing “gay is bad, feel bad that you’re gay” then it would have been more disturbing, but it seemed mostly like she was just engaging Ethan where he was already at.
He was fantasizing about pretending to be straight, and how that would make his life easier, and then he was the one who asked to go to church with Joyce.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/04-time-keeps-on-slippin/revulsion/
Joyce certainly didn’t help, but I think a lot of it lands on Ethan.
I mean that doesn’t really matter at the day; she was still indulging in his self-harm and perpetuating systemic violence against a gay person. The mitigation he circumstances are just why I don’t hold it against her.
Going more into the Joyce/Ethan arc:
– Joyce talking about “gayness is lying”
– Ethan talking about wanting control
– Ethan telling Joyce he’s gay
I think the “you’re perfect” comment manifests both the toxic and wholesome aspects of Joyce’s religious values.
On one hand I think Ethan should be told that being gay doesn’t make him imperfect. He is still the face of God, so to speak.
On the other hand Joyce’s perception of perfect was “Struggling with temptation to sin”. They both needed to learn that her religion’s understanding of “sin” was prejudiced.
“A lot of it lands on Ethan” is a weird way to talk about him being tempted to try gay conversion therapy.
He actively sought out a relationship with Joyce, and was not upfront about the fact that he was gay at the start.
Joyce didn’t pressure him into a relationship. She didn’t target him for being gay. He sought her out and continued to do so even after she made her homophobia extremely apparent.
That doesn’t make the homophobia okay, but Ethan knew full well what he was going into and still made that choice. A bad choice yes, but hischoice.
A key reason why he wanted a relationship with Joyce was because he felt like his sexuality was taking away his ability to have control over his own life.
It is ironic now to see him given no agency over the decisions he made.
Queer people get to make our own decisions about our relationships and how we express our sexuality. Maybe those decisions are bad decisions, but we get to make them ourselves.
We come out to who we want to when we choose. We date who we want to when we want to, so long as we are honest and they consent.
I think there’s a difference between “Joyce is entirely to blame” and “Ethan is just as much to blame as Joyce”.
I think we can place blame on Joyce and blame on homophobic society, which specifically very much includes Ethan’s own parents, and honestly leave Ethan himself out of it.
There are ways in which closeting, denying, repressing, and trying to convert yourself can hurt other people, but I don’t think Ethan hid his sexuality from Joyce for long enough for her to have a claim to injury, and he didn’t try to promote conversion therapy to any other character in the comic.
Honestly, if there’s anyone who would understand polyamory it would be Joe, but informed consent is the most important part about that kind of relationship, being poly is NOT an excuse for being a cheater.
That being said, at this point not enough has happened to be considered cheating by most metrics, MAYBE an emotional affair but since they only just realized these feelings are there if they come clean about it now they can still salvage things.
Wait, passionately kissing someone else multiple times, declaring your feelings, and non-platonically cuddling partially unclothed after doing so isn’t considered cheating???
My brain is breaking.
Like everyone’s free to have their own relationship boundaries on what they consider cheating but there’s still an objective definition. Is it the asexual in me? Is it bc people value sex more, that’s why they don’t count anything above the waist as cheating?
Quite frankly I think it is because they want to see Joyce/Dorothy. The fact that it is cheating spoils that experience so they want to deny the cheating.
No people just have different opinions. Probably more connected with if you actually been cheated on.
Like myself got called crazy and jealous because I thought my partner was acting off with a particular co-worker. They actually only ended up kissing once. The actual problem was not being honest about his feelings and treating me like I made it all up. The fact it was just a kiss wasn’t that relevant.
Joe barely understands relationships. I doubt he’s got any great insight into polyamory.
I really wonder if I live in an entirely different world from some of you folks, because I live in the one where “forgetting to wear your wedding ring to the hotel bar” is considered cheating by the most extreme folks, and romantic kissing is definitely always over the line.
why is everyone yelling like they didn’t expect the comic to cover this? did we think we wouldn’t get here? y’all need to get used to serial fiction
I’ve said this many times in response to these comments but while I can only speak for myself, it’s not that we didn’t think the writing was going to address it, but rather a reaction to the community comments
Speculation and discussion is part of the fun!
As a sicko, this trainwreck is exactly what I was hoping for.
You get it
Because I’m a data nerd, I’m very curious about the demographics of the DoA comment section so I put together my own survey, if anyone wants to participate just for fun/science
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ZRHLW8K
Done and done. May each little datum bring you a statistically valid sample size of dopamine.
Gettin some good dopamine
Done, and thank you for not restricting us to a single answer per question — I couldn’t’ve answered the last one properly otherwise.
You’re welcome! I tried really hard to balance being as inclusive as possible with not making each question 20 choices
Yeah I checked like. 5 boxes for the last one.
Sicko, polycule, everyone polycule, Joyce and Dorothy kissing warms my heart, and I think one other too.
Also… because I forgot to mention it in the first post, any chance we the audience will get to see the final results of this homemade survey of yours? For the other data geeks in the room?
Yes of course! I’ll run it for a week or so and then share results, I’ll post it again on tomorrow’s thread
I hope this one doesn’t go the way of the last survey. I really wanna see the data
It would definitely be a shame if a bunch of screaming infants took another survey as an excuse to publish their antisemitic manifesto instead of staying on topic, yes.
Wait what did I miss?
Wack’d made a similar survey a little while ago, and a bunch of self-entitled cockweasels used the “fill in your answer here” boxes to basically shriek about problems they had with the comments section and how Israel/Gaza/etc. was (or wasn’t) portrayed in the comic, because they have less self-control than an actual infant and aren’t intelligent enough to know which way to point their uncontrollable rage.
Ok so were they antisemitic or were they criticizing israel
I’m not informed enough about Israel to answer that question with any confidence. I’m playing it safe and assuming at least some of them were being antisemitic, though. If you want to know what was being specifically said at that time, you can search through the archive to find it, but I’m not going to.
Unfortunately it often goes hand in hand. Israel deserves to be criticized but a lot of people can’t understand nuance enough and are also completely ignorant about the history of Israel and the Jewish diaspora that their “criticism” ends up just being “anti Israel existing” rather than “anti Israel committing genocide”. Of course, it really depends on what was being said, but it’s a safe bet that there was some overlap. That’s my personal take as a Jewish person who hates Israel’s governments actions but gets very upset and frustrated with how I see people talk about it
Well, that all sounds like a massive pain in the ass to have to deal with on the regular. Or exhausting through repetition, at the very least.
As another Jewish person, it is not prima facie antisemitic to desire the cessation of the existence of the State of Israel. The Israeli state is not the Jewish people.
Dot, I feel that your stance on Israel is coming from a place of privilege. Try telling that to the Beta Yisraelim that had to be airlifted out of ethopia to flee genocide.
In a kind of abstract way it doesn’t. In practice, it’s hard to see any way to end the existence of the State of Israel that doesn’t involve brutal ethnic cleansing.
I guess a hypothetical “one state solution” might qualify, but there’s basically no chance of that either.
Dot I used to feel exactly the same and consider myself an anti-zionist but where would the Israeli people go if the state of Israel was abolished? Most Israelis have lived there for generations now, and have no other ancestral Homeland to return to the way European immigrant descendants in America do, because their homes were taken from them during world war II and have now had other families living in them from generations who just as equally don’t deserve to have those homes taken away from them now. Abolishing Israel would require some other country to be willing to adopt all of the Israelis as citizens and most countries, even America, aren’t so keen on Jews that they would be willing to do that.
Unless you just mean that Israel should exist but not as a religious ethnostate, which I am completely in agreement with
I mean, they wouldn’t need to go anywhere. Changing/reforming the state of Israel to not be exclusionary doesn’t mean people need to leave.
I’ve talked to a lot of Zionists and a lot of anti-Zionist. I’ve yet to see any anti-Zionist say Israeli’s should be forced to leave. Mostly it seems like a demon conjured up by the pro-Israel crowd to make anti-Zionism seem inhumane.
Right now Israel has a Law of Return. It is open to immigration as long as the immigrants are Jewish. It seems like an easy step would be to simply expand this to include Palestinians. Right of Return achieved.
Israel should not exist. I am in favor of a plurinational and secular State of Palestine.
Thanks for the explanation. I guess I’ve been making an incorrect assumption about what people mean when they say abolish Israel
That said it still makes me really uncomfortable when people say things like “globalize the intifada” since that phase is deeply rooted to violent attacks on Jewish civilians
Yeah, this honestly seems like the most brain-dead obvious answer to it all. No need to redraw lines or even change the stationary, just like, stop bombing and starving people.
Dot I disagree but respect your opinion and appreciate the civil discussion
Tequila right? It’s so frustrating seeing what Israel is doing as a Jew and being like can you just fucking stop?
Odo, we’re not making those people up. Think about it. You’ve only talked to the sort of people who you’re already in contact about this stuff. That’s one hell of a selection bias!
It says good things about you, that you would surround yourself with good people who wouldn’t have those views as anti-zionists. I felt insulted at first, but you’re really just coming from a place of innocent naivete.
To Erica: agreeeeed @ Israel just stop it already??
@Odo: That’s a pipe dream though. Israel would never do it and the people they’d be admitting wouldn’t live peacefully. There’s too much blood, too much anger and hate. And too much religion on both sides.
And the two sides would be far too close in numbers – in any kind of democratic society they’d be constantly vying for power and control.
I’d fully agree that the creation of Israel shouldn’t have happened, but it’s there now and there’s no way to undo do it that isn’t horrific.
@Joy these would be the Beta Yisraelim Israel sterilized, yes? Or how about when Israel stole children from Yemenite Jews? What about when they banned Yiddish for decades?
Can we uh step back while you send me information about the beta yisraelim being sterilized because WTF?????????
id argue but im busy being shocked, sincerely, what are you talking about?
I looked into it. Some of them might have been given birth control injections without their consent. It’s shitty if so, but not a permanent sterilization nor a government policy.
I’d be mad at you for misleading me, but you must’ve been mislead yourself. I’d hate Israel too if I believed all of this without checking if it was real. (Currently playing gravitar-roulette)
Oh wow, 30 responses already! You guys are great!
Live results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-fu7pUMvpsBTEiYJetnuNDw_3D_3D/
Also?
Good call on not adding any big text boxes. The last survey was apparently very hard to read through for Wack’d because a lot of folks vented their frustrations about either the comment section or the comic directly into Wack’d ear. I’m glad that won’t happen to you!
this might not be updating properly
It’s limited to 25 replies on the free trial. I’m currently arguing with survey monkey to try to haggle a more reasonable price than $90 to get the full results 😅
Yes, this survey has been filled out in a Taffy-involved response.
I eagerly await reviewing the results and seeing if I can figure out which responses are Taffy responses
Be strong, Joyce! Don’t let Sarah push you around! Your love life is your own, and none of Sarah’s business.
Sarah, butt out.
Sarah is free to voice her opinion, but you’re right insofar as it is ultimately up to Joyce what she does with the information of that outside input.
Fuck, I did not mean to report this
Anyways, Joyce should double down and Sarah should get increasingly more involved in her love life, creating a game of cat and mouse as Sarah tries to get Joyce to be clear with Joe and Joyce makes out with even more people
I’ve been yelled at for expressing that it’d be very realistic for the entire friend group to start pushing Joyce and Dorothy to the side a bit over this nonsense…
…but if that’s what people want to see, having Joyce verbalize that kind of feeling is a GREAT way to start the process.
Very amused by this world that exists in some people’s heads where friends aren’t allowed to have and express opinions about your life choices.
Joyce can do whatever she wants but her friends are certainly allowed to have opinions about it. And would you rather have a friend talk to you about the fact they’re upset with you and want you do the right thing, or just stop being your friend because they’re disgusted with your actions but it’s none of their business so they just back out of the friendship?
Also I would HOPE that a friend of mine would stand up for me if my partner (who was also their friend) was cheating on me, and not just say “none of my business!”
Real.
Those I call my truest friends are those who tell me when I’m about to do something stupid or call me out when I’m being ridiculous (or an asshole.) My advice to everyone is to get yourself these kinds of friends if you do not have them already. They are worth their weight in gold-plated diamond.
I have noticed an interesting increase in people thinking that to be friends with someone means that you do NOT push back on their bad behavior because “well I can’t control what they do”. I wonder if it’s a reaction to the more extreme instances of such a thing, such as when people try to cancel each other, so people swing into the other end of the behavior to be like “hey I don’t get involved with what they do it’s not my place to say”. The thing about friendship IS balancing respecting your friend’s choices while also being willing to tell them “hey I don’t think you should do this thing”.
Joyce is a grown woman and she can date whoever she wishes but Sarah is also allowed to think that Joyce cheating on her boyfriend is an upsetting thing to do. She wouldn’t be Sarah(or at least she wouldn’t be the version of Sarah she is now, being close friends and basically sisters with Joyce) if she just shrugged and said “oh well not my business”.
Almost certainly.
Which doesn’t have to mean that’s where Astariel is coming from, but as a wider trend I’m sure.
There’s a difference between “curate your social media experience” and “it’s fine to block someone for just being kind of annoying” and…… “friends are people with whom you agree on everything all the time”.
Sarah should talk MORE
Be strong Joyce! Keep cheating and lying to Joe!
Now you’re cookin’. 🧑🏻🍳🍳
I think Sarah should cuss her out harder
Wow sarah cant believe you’re a puritan relationship paladin who hates messy imperfect women bc you’re projecting your own cheating trauma onto them :/ (sarcasm)
Amazing Sarah!
REALLY feels like a lot of people in today’s comment section have never had meaningful relationships with friends, if somehow “telling your friend and roommate that cheating on their partner, both of whom you care about, is a bad thing to do to them” puts Sarah in the wrong here
Like, what is there to even be mad about here? “Get your hands off of each other”? I think that’s a reasonable request when you find out your roommate is making out w someone on your TOP BUNK in your shared room without telling you first – that’s like, roommate manners 101.
I think the “Get your hands off her” is less about “Don’t do this in the room with me” and more “you guys aren’t cute, you’re being shitty”
Right? Isn’t that the whole idea behind the informal “sock on the doorknob” system? The acknowledgement that this is a shared space, and as such, allowing for individual lifestyles should also come with a healthy dose of decorum and respect for each others’ personal boundaries?
Like more than friends, they are mutually-agreed-upon siblings. My older sister can’t tell me that I’m being a dumbass?
I mean, what else are siblings even for if not exactly that? XD
Real friends don’t even acknowledge each other
If a friend so much as looks my way they are dead to me.
A man once had the audacity to ask me my name, and I ghosted him so hard that I disappeared into the ether right in front of him.
This is really insensitive to the cognitohazard demographic. Some of us are doing our best to maintain friendships even when one of us literally cannot perceive or acknowledge the other without dissolving into brownsauce.
Who are you?
Taffy
No thanks, i don’t want any candy.
I think the way the Relationship Paladins vs Sickos thing has evolved over time is fascinating.
Like, the original post defined Relationship Paladins as “Dorothy and Joyce need to properly break up with their boyfriends before going any further” (as in, before they kissed at the protest). I’d wager the vast majority of people who voted for that option would say we’re WAY passed that point ~ a month on.
At this point, RPs are here to see the fallout as everything blows up in Joyce and Dorothy’s face, which is the orignal stated reason why Sickos wanted this plotline to happen.
At this point, people on both sides of the argument as defined in the original post are on basically the same page in terms of where they want the story to go, and are both fighting the secret 3rd group, “People who want Dorothy/Joyce to get together with no/minimal negative consequences”.
Yet the original terms are still being used, almost completely divorced from their original definition, due to a mix of rapidly developed factionalism and confusion as to what the poll terms meant from people who didn’t read the original post.
I think there are actually several camps. Here’s how I would define them:
– Trash Goblins: Here for the Drama
– Paladins: Want the cheating to be framed as exclusively bad, and to not be brushed aside. Upset when other people frame the cheating as cute/romantic/or just a stumbling block to the OTP.
– Wholesome Vanilla Latte: Want people in the comic to be good, decent people. Do not want cheating in the comic because it is upsetting.
– Shippers: Are either upset or happy because they want Joe/Joyce or Joe/Dorothy.
– Queer rep: Love to see any queer relationship. Upset by homophobes disliking Joyce/Dorothy because it is queer.
– Poly Party: Want more polyamorous representation. Sometimes upset when people assume monogamy for Joe/Joyce. Disappointed the poly possibility (the polybility) isn’t being explored.
– Monogamy Lawyers: Deny there was cheating because of a lack of formal monogamy contract.
– Mess Muppets: Excuse the cheating because people can be messy.
I don’t think it has ever really been about consequences, it has been about framing. Are the consequences “the price we pay for love” or will we see Joyce and Dorothy truly regret cheating.
In the original kiss, Willis added in a bunch of Wedding imagery, and had Jocelyn looking on approvingly. This framing says the most important part of this scene is how romantic it is, and good for them for demonstrating their love.
Shit I should add all these to the survey
See, I don’t think that’s what the framing was communicating.
I think the framing was communicating that Joyce and Dorothy feel that way.
I’ve been arguing for like two weeks now that I think folks were jumping the gun to think Willis’s framing was going to valorize cheating.
I’ll certainly concede that so far the narrative has been ambiguous on that point, but I absolutely think Sarah is about to obliterate Joyce’s romantic rationalizations, where what they’re doing is fine because true love conquers all.
And then I kind of think Joyce and Dorothy are going to keep being a couple anyway, but without the illusion that what they have is a storybook story. It’s still as real as the feelings they feel, but unlike The Princess-Bride, neither of the girls is being saved from a Prince Humperdink.
They’re just hurting people, and they need to acknowledge that and tell the boys and let the boys have their own feelings about this.
So I like the King Killer Chronicles.
The King Killer Chronicles are told from the perspective of Kvothe, a man, and for most of the story a teen.
The story is also, unfortunately, kind of sexist. It has a tendency for every woman who isn’t old/a child to be beautiful and alluring. Kvothe compares women to objects alarmingly often, and there is a certain period where is seems like “and then he was super sex and had a lot of sex”.
At the same time the story also explicitly calls out sexist institutions in the world. It explicitly points to different experiences based on gender, and gender discrimination. Furthermore it frequently raises questions around who is telling a story and what stories are not being told.
Some people defend the series saying “it is being told from the perspective of a teenage boy”… but for me that doesn’t carry much weight. The author chose to write it from that perspective, so if that ends up reinforcing sexist tropes then that is still ultimately a problem with the book.
I have some hope that the sexism will be resolved, but only because I hope it will explicitly challenge the fact that it is being told by Kvothe. Since Kvothe is the narrator there is some room to set up an unreliable narrator that can then be critiqued.
Can the same happen with Dumbing of Age? Maybe, but I don’t see how. This story isn’t being narrated to us by Joyce/Dorothy. We assume the perspective of a nameless observer.
Willis chose to emphasize the romance and cuteness repeatedly. That was the first thing communicated to us, and having “consequences” later on doesn’t change that.
Look.
I don’t think Willis needs to, or is trying to, “make up” for showing us Joyce and Dorothy being happy earlier by showing consequences now.
I think they were conveying “Joyce and Dorothy are happy”, not “cheating is awesome”.
I think what they are now conveying is “even though this has made Joyce and Dorothy happy, it’s still wrong of them to hurt their boyfriends”.
These aren’t contradictory. The comic strip doesn’t have to have been clearly from Joyce and Dorothy’s POV, and it’s not that previous strips were a failed attempt at conveying an unreliable narrator.
They reliably and accurately conveyed Joyce and Dorothy being happy, then being anxious, then being happy, then being guilty, then being happy. And now this strip is reliably and accurately conveying Joyce and Dorothy being caught.
If in the next few strips, Joyce effectively argues Sarah around to agreeing that actually it’s fine that she’s cheating on Joe right now, then you’ll have more of a leg to stand on regarding Willis’s message.
But also! These are good breakdowns.
I will add that lots of people are more than one. For example, you’ve had Shippers mingled in with Relationship Paladins (shippers of both ships*, in fact) — people who don’t like the cheating, but who would still like to see this end in regret and penance for Joyce, where she goes back to Joe.
* by this I mean: some of the relationship paladins actually shipped Joyce/Dorothy, and either didn’t want it to start in cheating because they think starting that way will doom the ship, or were so turned off (metaphorically) by the cheating that they stopped liking the ship.
I love monogamy lawyer for the visual of two lawyers going back and forth over technicalities
“My client did not verbally agree to exclusivity”
“But what of the implication clause-“
“The implication clause does not apply here”
Poly Party is two subcamps, too:
– I am hopeful, I think this could be good, messy poly representation!
– I am disappointed, because I think the cheating ruined the poly possibility!
Don’t forget:
— I want poly representation, but I DON’T want it to be messy.
(This is fair! It doesn’t invalidate wanting messy poly, but we are all at different points on our journey. There isn’t exactly a ton of poly rep period, so I understand feeling like it needs to be perfect.)
I think Whole Vanilla Latte Paladin describes me much more accurately than Relationship Paladin, thank you.
Relationship Paladins / Sickos was a mistake
Oh absolutely,
A great example of what happens when you force a wide range of opinions into arbitrary camps. Probably says a lot about society or something.
But a terrible mistake wrt what its done to the comments section.
it absolutely was, but I still somehow enjoy identifying as a Relationship Paladin.
I still think there’s a significant distinction between people who want mess, but see it as a natural consequence of an emotionally messy situation, versus people who want to see Joyce and Dorothy punished and condemned for discovering their feelings for each other in an imperfect way.
I totally agree there’s a distinction, but I also know that as a person in Group A there were several folks trying to cram me into Group B, possibly because I make no bones about “part of the emotional mess is that people tend to dislike cheaters regardless of their reasoning, and basically every friend group I knew in college pushed cheaters to the perhiphery/outside, especially when the cheated-upon person was also in the group.”
I am no fighting that group i am actually having a really nice meal with them.
FINALLY THE SPICE. WE’VE BEEN DROWNING IN UNFLAVORED SYRUP
(I refuse to call these two vanilla, vanilla is a hard to cultivate and expensive ingredient that can create some of the strongest, most beautiful flavors you’ve ever tasted and I will never forgive the world for making it synonymous with boring)
Joyrothy are styrofoam
If they were a spice they’d be flour.
Bland, edge-less, crumbly, and white
peak icon combo by tbe by, never change it
I will fill your pillows with unflavored syrup
You should see a urologist about that. Or possibly a priest.
Ok genuine question, how does that relate to my comment? I can’t put it together
I think Big Z thought you were going to excrete it somehow, instead of like, using a bottle of syrup.
Kinda weird thing to immediately jump yo. But hey i am no one to kinkshame
As though filling pillows with syrup WASN’T in and of itself a weird thing to jump to. Weirdo jumper.
Where else are you going to get that much unflavored syrup at this time of night?
Gas station. ⛽
Cards on the table here, cards on the table, I am refusing to acknowledge any other discussions going on, but one of these people reasons I’m pulling so hard for the Sacred Polycule of all three goobers Joe/Joyce/Dorothy related is that by themselves, Joe/Joyce and Joyrothy are DOMESTIC as FUCK.
And, and I know I’m gonna Piss Off the “ooh I hope jakey dies” yuri contingent here BUT I AM RIGHT: Joyrothy is actively the *more boring* of those two couples once you take away the queer yearning! Once they’re together they’re a saccharine mess, and that’s cute and all, but it’s been proven that the people want more, especially with this whole explosive cheating genesis, if they immediately became The Pharmacist And Her Wife, Junior Versions it would feel like wasted potential/bad people winning/a third thing that stinks! And you can argue they wouldn’t, but like, look at them, they’re way too fucking equilibriumed up and happy! They make Dina and Becky look dramatic!
I’m not saying I want all toxic yuri, dear God no, no Billie/Ruth reenactments for the silly bi blondes, but yeah, they need the spice! Joe and Joyce also needed the spice! That’s why you make a triangle, is for the spice!!! It keeps things fucked up and weird!!!!
Y’know, I’ll tentatively agree with you in that I thought Joe/Joyce had a fair bit of good not-boring by rooting around in the collective detritus of their respective upbringing suckiness, and they were somewhat uniquely positioned to be foils for each other in that regard.
They would have eventually got over it and settled into a cozy slipshine-filled domesticity, but I really wish we’d got at least a few more in-timeline weeks of them sorting out Joyce’s sexual hangups and Joe’s emotional ones first.
FINALLY someone agrees with me about vanilla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vanilla’s a good flavor! I think it only gets shit on for being generic because vanilla soft serve ice cream is typically white and diluted to the point of mostly tasting like sugar. And then the next layer of my theory is, because it’s white, and Americans are fucking racist in extra stupid ways, that makes it The Default™ to a lot of people. I’m also workshopping a way to involve the super mild flavor levels being connected to that maniac who decided American food was too stimulating and it was making everyone jack off constantly so he invented corn flakes about it, but I haven’t got a through line figured out yet.
Cutting corn syrup out of my diet spiced up my sex life for sure 😛
If people are going to rightfully hold Joyce and Dorothy accountable for being distracted and doing things in a messy, unnecessarily hurtful way, then they need to hold Sarah to the same standards. Her closest friend, a recovering fundamentalist who had previously only ever identified as straight, came out to her. And she was too caught up in her newfound understanding that Joe is currently not awful to realize that she was using words like “wrong” and suggesting Joyce needs to stay with a man. For all she (or we) know, Joyce isn’t bi/pan but rather a lesbian.
Given the nuances of the situation, I completely understand why she did what she did. Her heart was in the right place, and she can earn forgiveness and understanding for a less-than-ideal response to Joyce’s inconveniently timed personal epiphany. I just hope the people cheering Sarah on eventually extend the same understanding to Joyce and Dorothy.
Once again that is not even remotely what Sarah is implying.
If we don’t have bad faith readings then what is left for us!?
I agree that that’s not what she intended. But communication is more than what you intend to say, or even the precise words you use to say it. Communication is understanding the headspace of the person you’re speaking to. And communicating with friends means sometimes postponing what you want to say in favor of what they need in the moment.
If one of your closest friends was snooping in their parent’s phone and found out they were adopted, are you going to immediately yell at them for the betrayal of privacy? Or are you going to save the lecture for later, and give them support for a huge personal revelation?
Sarah’s closest friend, who less than a year prior believed that gay people would burn in hell, came out to her. Whether Sarah thinks that’s a big deal or not, she should understand that Joyce will think it’s a big deal. And Sarah’s immediate response was an angry lecture. Did Joyce deserve that lecture? Yes… eventually. When she was ready to hear it, and after Sarah could be certain that she wasn’t going to be misunderstood.
In a month, no one will remember the exact words Sarah used and in which order. No one will care that Joyce kissed Dorothy 23 times before breaking up with Joe 23 instead of 3. No one will care that Joyce broke Joe’s heart at 9am instead of 7am. But Joyce *is* going to remember that when she needed support, she didn’t get it.
She isn’t saying “being gay is wrong” she is saying “cheating is wrong”. She isn’t saying “stay with Joe” she is saying “break up with Joe before making out with Dorothy”.
“Being distracted and being messy” is a great way to minimize that they have been repeatedly and conciously making shitty decisions.
Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but if you choose to do bad things because “I can be messy, that’s okay” you are choosing what sort of person you want to be.
If you are someone who wants to treat others kindly. If you want to be honest and compassionate. If you actually want to do good things then you won’t choose to be shitty. People choose to be shitty when they want to and can find a way to excuse it.
To be fair, understanding that discovering you’re queer and in love with your best friend can be emotionally messy – and might actually be more significant than a week-old relationship – is apparently much harder than I’d previously thought, based on this comment section.
REAL.
Significant or not, messy or not, even if I spot them the kiss I would argue that it’s pretty easy to decide to tell your boyfriend about it before you, y’know, go down on him instead.
It’s certainly possible to look at things in that light, but Sarah isn’t saying Joyce needs to stay with Joe.
She’s saying Joyce needs to stop hurting Joe, because he deserves better than to be cheated on.
Two very different things!
She literally mever suggested that what are you talking about
What is with some of you interpreting things in this comic that aren’t actually happening? Sarah is criticizing Joyce and Dorothy for cheating, not for coming out as bi. She wants Joyce to properly break up with Joe instead of continuing cheating on him, and she’s admitted she was wrong about Joe and that he was a good boyfriend who deserves better than how Joyce is behaving. I feel like some people are reading an entirely different comic than what I’m reading.
I’m sorry. Sarah’s the one that needs to earn forgiveness????? What is this horseshit
So for realsies I agree with Sarah about Joe being good for Joyce. Those two were good *together.* Joyce + Dorothy is cute and I love my wlw stuff but… Joe + Joyce they grow together.
[gender neutral equivalent of Dude], the number of comments under this one!
Adding another one for Sarah. Preach, sister!
Funny enough, I don’t know that Sarah is right that Joe is good for Joyce(all of the positive changes in her have been largely Joe-neutral I think, but I could be wrong), but Joyce has definitely been good for Joe.
I think you have a bit of a point here.
I do think Joe has been a good, patient boyfriend — but a.) that should be the baseline standard, any partner should do at least that much!, and b.) he didn’t do it just for her, he very much did everything he’s done because that’s also what he wanted.
I hope no one sees Joe as having sacrificed tremendously in this relationship, because he hasn’t. That the two of them haven’t had sex yet has absolutely been a mutual decision, and I think Joe would have been just as gun-shy no matter who he was with after his last experience with Liz. Even if he’d tried to have a one-night stand with Roz, someone he knows is explicitly down for one-night stands, I think he would have choked a bit.
There’s real anxiety there that I hope he gets to deal with, and one of the things I haven’t loved about his relationship with Joyce is how much she clearly still thinks of all of this in the fundie terms she was raised with: that she’s the one who “needs” to be the barrier, and that the second she says yes, it’s obviously full speed ahead.
I don’t blame her for thinking that way? It’s how she was raised and it represents significant trauma.
But that she still felt that way right up until the moment of almost PIV sex tells me that she and Joe haven’t been communicating very well. He either isn’t telling her about his anxieties, or she isn’t hearing them, because they’re clearly there.
I think she hasn’t been hearing him. But then he’s also not sat her down and point blank explained his concerns and his fears.
His actions are speaking volumes, but she seems utterly unable or unwilling to recognize those ques, and I lean towards unable.
I think he has been, but it’s harder to clock because he’s been the brakes, and a lot of it feels very “Well yeah, that’s just what a good person would do” but amped higher then the average.
In a comic of relationship disasters, Joe has been the most considerate and not-garbage Significant Other across the comic, barring Dina & Tony.
Nothing bad has come out of Sal yet… I think? Becky has been a pretty good partner to Dina.
So far we’ve had Walky Drama (Dorothy, Amber, Lucy), Amber/Amazigirl Drama (Danny, Walky), Jennifer/Ruth Drama (they are the drama) with a bit of Jason and Alice on the side, and Joyce Drama (Ethan, Jacob, Joe, Dorothy).
Dina continues to be the platinum standard, and I love her for it (as do, I suspect, many others.)
Love this for two reasons. 1) Sarah’s telling it like it is right to Joyce’s face, telling her she’s wrong in this, as a good friend would. Looking forward to Joyce’s reaction to this. And Dorothy’s. 2) Seems to me that Sarah’s kinda falling for this new dependable and honest 1woman Joe?
I dunno if I’d say “falling for” as much as “feels empathetic for.”
Which is wild, for “Other People Suck” Sarah.
Though, Joe IS her type. That being, muscular, handsome, and taller than her.
LET’S GO SARAH!!! I am here for all of this!
Yay, Sarah. <3
While I am here for the Yuri, Sarah had to fucking say it!
The amount of people reading this as Sarah telling Joyce she should stay with Joe and not that he didnt do anything to deserve being cheated on and she was wrong about him is wild
Right? She wanted Joyce to BREAK UP with Joe, not CHEAT on Joe. Even if her stance on Joe being a good guy has changed, and she wouldn’t want them to break up NOW? I doubt she’d EVER be down for Joyce *not* breaking up with him before she started a relationship with anyone else.
Yeah, it’s weirding me out how many people are completely misreading this strip, particularly the last 2-3 panels. Feels like some folks in the comments are in a completely different reality than me.
You say misreading, then you say different reading. So are people allowed their own opinion, or is their personal opinion simply ‘wrong if it isn’t the same as yours?
Oh hey speaking of people deliberately misreading things in the most malicious way possible
this would never happen in this comic because Willis seems loath to make known characters bigots unless their name is Mary, but it would be a fascinating (and very tragic) turn of events if this made Joe go BACK to his pick up artist persona and double down on it.
I’ve witnessed this happen in real life, obviously it’s not a one-to-one match to this fictional couple, but the guy in question turned into a misogynist who blamed all women for being b-words and hypergamists (using other words of course). I don’t know if he was like just because of the break up or if this became his new personality, because I stopped speaking to him during this period.
I don’t want this to happen because I like Joe and his development a lot; but if we’re doing drama for the love of drama, I feel like it would make sense.
Narratively though, I would think it would be unsatisfying. Sure, it does happen all the time. People relapse into old habits when they hit bumps in the road… but that’s kind of why it would be boring to read, for me at least.
Let this moment be one of growth and triumph for Joe. Let it be him learning to be this better man not just for Joyce, not just out of fear of becoming his dad, but a choice for himself to be his best self.
I still maintain the most narratively satisfying way this resolves for Joe is for him to hear Joyce lay it all out, and respond with something like “Okay, so I listened to you preach at me about my moral failings, fixed myself, and took a huge chance on my fears coming true to date you, and now this is what you do after a week? Good. Luck. With. That.” and storms off with his head held high to lift weights until he pukes and/or some other lady from the secondary cast comes to console him on the shit he just went through.
> some other lady
Rachel. And then they kiss.
I just really want to see Joe thrive because I sympathize with that “fear you’re doomed to turn out like your father” stuff, and I wanna see him conquer it. Plus it’s nice seeing someone who was almost a one-note joke character evolve into someone complicated and interesting to read about.
Yeah, I went kinda through a Joyce-ish arc and a Joe-ish arc in my college experience, and now that Joyce has gone past one of my own bright lines (although not as stupid as the stupidest time I was ever cheated on), I’m kinda relying on Joe getting over his stupid misogynist era and ending up the kinda guy I’d invite to join my fraternity for me to feel like I identify with someone here.
(continuing my thoughts from the above comment) It would make more sense than a rando on wheels naming himself after a violent hate group and everyone reacting as if he was a 60’s batman villain and not someone who might acquire a machine gun and specifically target women who are trying to get a higher education like Marc Lépine or Elliot Rodger.
Like I UNDERSTAND the impulse of saying all incels are clown doofuses who should not be taken seriously, but we could say the same thing about the mentality of white supremacists and still acknowledge that want to have committed hate crimes and mass murders.
I don’t think Joe would ever become an incel, but pick up artists and men’s rights activists are part of a Venn diagram that overlaps dangerously with incel rhetoric. It’s about the entitlement to women’s bodies and attention, it’s about toxic masculinity and it’s about refusing to see women as human beings. I don’t want Joe to backslide into that culture, so I guess the break up will be a test of his character to see if he has truly grown or if he gets seduces back into the culture of objectifying women. I have faith in Joe, I don’t think he will fall, but there’s the chance he might.
ok, good, it was starting to not be entertaining for me personally anymore.
Incredibly spirited comments today. Lots o good stuff.
Is it just me or does Sarah seem very distraught? Face transforms gradually though the panels ending with the short lines at the bottom of the eyes that some artists use to show the eyes welling up. tomorrow should be good. Mr. Willis is very good at leaving the situation ambiguous.
She likes Joe a lot now! She’s really come around on him.
Also, crucially, she has been cheated on before.
True, true. She’s had a lot of trouble trusting someone as a friend.
Honestly I’ve mainly been checking in to see how amber/amazigirl is doing because I’m not super invested in the recent plot developments. I feel like I’m not… the type of person who really enjoys the way that the recent arcs are written. Like if it was a poor writing thing I’d just say that, but its more like its meant to appeal in ways that I don’t personally find appealing, if that makes sense? WRT relationship drama.
I think I’ve also talked about how there was like basically 0 nuance about the pro palestine protests thing and 0 mentions of how they related to campus antisemitism and like not one person got passive aggressive towards dorothy and joe about them being jewish and presumably having ties to israel, or that they have to personally denounce israel or be seen as awful people in ways that a non jewish person wouldn’t be… and bla bla bla it feels like the jews aren’t really written as jewish people so much as people who happen to have jewish heritage etc… etc. It just– like– I don’t know. The anti-war stuff is a cause I believe in but feel like I can’t participate in because I don’t want to be bigoted against myself, and so many people who participate in it are super bigoted in ways that they absorb from the movement, and not of this is being acknowledged by the plot that presents it as a simple good people vs bad people for the most part. Like let’s pretend that people camping in front of a college dorm doesn’t, like, pose any danger to women I guess. As an asthmatic person though I hate tear gas so much…
Like the stormfront movement recruits at pro palestine protests for a reason. There are a bunch of non palestinians who will hiel hitler while holding up the palestine flag even. I want to clarify that its non palestinians, and I don’t think Palestinians have really done anything bad to me on a personal basis as an individual, unlike their PERFORMATIVE allies, lol.
It’s kinda funny, like I identify as zionist but my Palestinian and anti zionist jewish friends think I don’t count as a zionist because of what my actual political views are, and that’s just wrong to me. I simply don’t agree with the anti-semitic redefining of what zionism means. I should show up to protest with a “zionists against colonialism” sign, I think. I worry it’ll piss everybody off. Kinda wanna do it anyway.
I mean, really, it was indigenous land back with guns.
Yawn.
Good night.
Generally in Israel/Palestine contexts I find calls for nuance always stop just as soon as we get back to supporting Israel. This isn’t an accusation towards you, just what I have observed in general.
And quite frankly I am not interested in painting the Palestine protests as a “mixed bag” because there are already a bunch of people trying to demonize the protests every way they can. Israel has been pushing the “anti-Zionists are antisemites” schtick for decades.
“it was indigenous land back with guns”
Not at all.
First of all “with guns” is a pretty big difference.
Second of all Zionism was intent to take the land from an indigenous people. Palestinians are indigenous. This “the Arabs are the real colonizers” is nonsense considering the Arabization of the levant took place over centuries where the local people slowly came to identify with their conquerers. It would be like saying French people colonized France because they speak a romance language instead of Gaulish.
Thirdly the “land back” movement generally relies on voluntary transfer of publicly owned land. This is very different from Land Acquisition companies useing western capital to purchase land for foreign land owners, under British colonial laws, and evict all the Palestinian tenants.
People are successfully demonizing the protests because they are a mixed bag. The protests same protests I want to participate in, but feel unsafe in, because of the “mixed bag,” thing where people who hate jews show up to protest, not because they care about palestine, but because they hate jews, hate israel, and do side with terrorists, and some of these people are genuinely leftist identifying. (I don’t really consider them leftist.)
It feels like you’re looking past reality in favor of, like, academic moralizing?
Zionism is the reason why ethiopian jews got airlifted into israel when ethiopia started ethnically cleansing. Like, yeah, zionism is also a mixed bag, which is why its getting successfully demonized.
Frankly, though, the idea that indigenous land back has to be voluntary and that indigenous people can’t take it back is itself colonial. I don’t agree.
I forgot to say that me being anti genocide is specifically why I’m in favor of Israel continuing to exist and that I think that its a good thing that the modern state of Israel was founded, even if it was messy and even though people got hurt and died. Being anti genocide is why I consider myself to be a Zionist.
War is bad, statistically speaking Israel’s war conduct has been on the low side for civilian casualties. I want to also talk about, like, Hindu nationalism as a bad thing, or muslim fundamentalism as a bad thing, or like, the myanmar republic civil war because of the military general’s coup when the president was assassinated, or like literally any world politics that isn’t Israel, sometimes? It’s always about Israel though, and I genuinely think that it wouldn’t get that much more attention than the rest of the world if it weren’t for jew hate, if I’m being honest.
Jews never came to identify with their conquerors.
I’m still pro palestine cause I have palestinian friends and I want their families to be safe, so I want the war to end. It’s just… the arguments that non palestians give to me online usually fall completely flat, including yours… there’s casual antisemitism and colonizer logic embedded in your argument here on a personal basis! That sort of thing is a big part of why I left the pro palestine movement, before I got to know palestinians personally and rejoined it!
I think that ditching the antisemitism would allow the movement to become more accepted in the main stream, and would cause it to stop being demonized so readily…
no more “from the river to the sea”
no more calls for the dissolution of Israel (which would very much result in genocide against the jews)
I’m choosing to be a pro palestine moderate, and I think that being radically pro palestine is an ineffective way to be pro palestine. I’ve been involved in activism enough to know that propaganda just teaches you not to think, and that staying angry all the time isn’t “praxis,” and doesn’t do anything and just leaves you exhausted and miserable and people won’t like you. There’s so much unnecessary pretense in leftist spaces, and there’s so many people who just decide that their bigotry doesn’t count as bigotry, left wing or right wing. Asexuals know what I’m talking about here, as do polyamorous people. (no, a guy having two girlfriends isn’t misogyny. You know?)
It sounds like a moderate is someone who has enough sense to oppose genocide, but continues to think segregation and apartheid is okay.
People are demonizing the protests because supporting Palestinian liberation conflicts with the U.S. military interests.
People are demonizing the protests because the protests are critical of Israel, and many people refuse to accept that taking over a foreign land and ethnically cleansing the population was wrong.
The protests are not a mixed bag except in the sense that they don’t serve the interests of people in power (not “Jews”, rather the White Christien supremecist imperial hegemony that is the U.S.).
And quite frankly I don’t trust reports of antisemitism coming from a lot of sources anymore because they fail to differentiate between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Which isn’t to say antisemitism doesn’t exist, just to point out how the endless conflation of Israel and Jews actively hinders the fight against antisemitism.
I am sure there are antisemites who try to disguise their antisemitism as anti-Zionism. Antisemites will disguise their hatred as whatever they can. Antisemites also disguise their bigotry as class conciousness, but that doesn’t mean I think protests for a fair wage are a “mixed bag”.
And no, the Palestine protests do not need to ditch the antisemitism because it was never part of the movement to begin with. The movement was responding to the very real, ongoing oppression of Palestinians by the state of Israel.
—
Zionism was not a “land back” movement because it was taking land from an indigenous population, not from a colonizer. Please stop it with the racist and offensive lie that Palestinians are the “real colonizers”.
—
And Israel wouldn’t get so much attention if it weren’t funded and supported by western powers. You want to compare Israel to Myanmar? Then let’s treat Israel like Myanmar. We don’t sell the Tatmadaw bombs, we sanction them.
Honestly, while I agree with your points, I think it’s absolutely worth pointing out that while Israel was built on land Palestinians are indigenous to, it was the Western Colonial powers France and Britain that controlled that part of the world prior to its establishment. The displacement of Palestinians to make room for Jewish folks was started by a third party.
It’s part of why the whole situation is such a gigantic clusterfuck, it’s one of the most complicated geopolitical situations in history.
Where do you think that jewish people are from then?
Is it gauche to quip “New York”?
Well, it made me chuckle.
As a white guy with dark hair from New Jersey, it absolutely made me laugh because tons of people have assumed I’m Jewish and so many of my friends are as well.
It depends on the Jewish person. At some point in history we are all descended from people in Africa.
But maybe after 2000 years your desire to return to the land your great, great, great*60 grandmother used to live in is less important than the rights of the local indigenous population to govern themselves.
https://mepc.org/commentaries/original-no-why-arabs-rejected-zionism-and-why-it-matters/
Yeah like the Israel defined by the united nations and other governments of the world isn’t really a safe haven for us Jews, and it’s not really a democracy like white people think it is
They merely fall back on supporting it cuz they realize they have basically ZERO in terms of an actual pro-Jewish praxis
I dont want some “Jewish reservation” I could be shoved into so the rest of the world can continue to be hateful of us, I want the world to be less hateful.
The pithy answer is “Eastern Europe” since that’s where the majority of Ashkenazi folks were from.
But the real answer is that I didn’t say anything about where Jewish folks are from, merely that Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine. Multiple ethnic groups can he indigenous to the same part of the world, and it is irrefutable that many Palestinian folks were forced to move as a result of the creation of Israel.
Inidgineity is a function of one’s relationship to the process of settler colonialism. We are not an indigenous people to the levant.
Kind of yes and no.
France and Britain absolutely betrayed</a? their Arab partners by seizing control after the fall of the Ottoman empire. The League of Nations served its purpose of legitimizing the continuation of colonial rule by establishing the Mandate system.
But at the same time Zionist organizations lobbied for Britain to impose its rule over Palestine. If not for Zionism I imagine Britain at least would have let Palestine go the same route as Jordan and get independence under a British aligned ruler.
Furthermore Zionism established the Land Acquisition companies that sought to purchase land from absentee landlords, evict the local Palestinian tenants and replace them with people of the desired ethnicity. Beyond just basic class issues, and ethnic discrimination, this represented a fundamental change in what land ownership meant. It changed from an essentially feudal system of occasional rent collection, to people being forced out by British guns. Beyond this there were also efforts to sue to get public lands privatized on the grounds that they "weren't cultivated" by the standards of the colonial ruler.
Britain was certainly essential to the project of Zionism, and in many ways supported it, but Britain also spent a lot of time trying to play both sides for its own benefit. I will happily condemn Britain, but I also think we need to condemn Zionism. It is wild to look at a land and say "yeah, that should be ours" without any consideration for the local people. In addition it is deeply immoral to take the plight of refugees and use it to support a ethnonationalistic campaign of demographic engineering.
Whomp… thats what I get for trying to put in a hyperlink.
See, “forced out by British guns” is kind of my key point there. Again, it’s such a goddamned complicated issue as proved by everything you just talked about, but at the end of the day, it was British soldiers and British rifles that enforced the decisions. Zionists were not an invading army, and that’s how your posting comes across.
If they guns are acting on my behalf, at my request, then I think saying they are “not my guns” is a bit meaningless.
Palestinians wouldn’t have been evicted without Zionism. There wouldn’t have been foreign land purchases like there were without Zionist organizations.
Britain did not have the goal of changing the demographics of Palestine, that goal came from Zionism.
And I really don’t think it is that complicated. I put out longer takes because I am used to needing to rebut endless defenses.
The short of it was that Israel was created through colonial conquest and ethnic cleansing.
We only get into complicated stuff because people are desperate to deny that truth.
Protesting against genocide is not anti-semitism. What is this nonsense.
You could try actually reading any of what I said.
Dang it, I was coming here to chuckle because I am aggressively bored with Amazi-Girl’s superhero antics taking away from what is otherwise a fairly grounded comedy strip
But I really, *really* don’t have the spoons to debate about the protests.
That’s okay. Take care of yourself.
As a Palestinian with Jewish family and friends who are capable of differentiating zionism and antisemitism…. This take on it misses the point so hard I’m genuinely astounded. But why did you feel the need to start this debate in a comic strip AFTER the related arc?
Because I was taking a break from the comic during the arc.
I didn’t miss the point (of the comic) I just don’t really agree with some of the points being made. Or, rather, I think the comic implies things that aren’t true through the combination of what it chooses to portray and what it chooses not to portray.
Y’all need polyamory.
That would be a pretty unhealthy start to a poly relationship. Those are the sort of boundaries (or lack of) that partners should set at the beginning.
yes but it would be an entertaining one
Good thing I don’t care if it’s a healthy start
Me when I drink a pint of country gravy for breakfast
I thought dating usually doesn’t involve, like, rigid courtship arrangements? I don’t know. I’m usually pretty up front about how I don’t do monogamy, but it’s, like, not the first thing I tell someone on a date…?
Huh, most people I date know I’m poly/ENM before we even GO on a date while we’re still in the “chatting to determine if we want to date” process.
Also, I think there’s a strong difference between “date” and “using the word boyfriend/girlfriend”, which our characters here have done, in terms of expectations.
I’ve said this before, Polyamory would never work between Joyce, Dorothy, Walky, and Joe. Even if three of the four agreed to it, Dotty’s too jealous to share Joyce with anyone, and she’d be actively trying to push Joe out of the picture entirely.
Agreed. My ideal solution is that after amends are made, we have a polycule of Dorothy, Joyce and Joe but Dorothy couldn’t be poly.
The denouement of this arc begins in earnest.
Joyce: great! Now when is my turn, the consequences comes at the time
Yeah like, Joyce very often soberingly reminds us that excessive restriction and institutional religious guilt/fear is no substitute for an actual moral compass.
Hence why we go out of our way not to legitimize so-called “traditional values” — because clearly these are values which do not lead to functioning people or functioning society. 👀
I agree. Punishment is not discpline.
Joyce, you are the cause of that pain in Sarah’s face on the last panel. It was one thing to think, but you forced her to say it.
According to Joyce, she had “sex” with Dorothy before Joyce was going out with Joe.Joe also knows Joyce “loves” Dorothy, because Joyce has said so in front of him. Joyce told Joe this. Joe was OK with it, although I don’t think he got a very clear idea what that “sex” was. Dorothy also knew everything that Joyce did/planned to do with Joe.
So who c-worded who? And who has not been honest about it? Sure, things may have developed a tad, but I really don’t see why anyone has the right to impose their ideas of m-word on fictional characters, other than Willis and whoever Willis consults.
OOPs mixed that up editing:
According to Joyce, she had “sex” with Dorothy before Joyce was going out with Joe. Joyce told Joe this. Joe was OK with it, although I don’t think he got a very clear idea what that “sex” was. Joe also knows Joyce “loves” Dorothy, because Joyce has said so in front of him. and etc
And the characters who used the word themselves, like when Joyce said “Great, now I’m cheating on both of you” like one human week ago. They probably count for considering.
Taffy you aren’t supposed to say the c-word!!
conga
And, of course, Joyce and Dorothy will be celebrating their 10th wedding anniversary in four months. After Joyce dumped Joe to marry Dorothy instead. They really should have seen this coming. It’s just life-imitates-classwork.
Thank you, Sarah, for being the voice of reason, as usual. I don’t care if Joyce and Dorothy remain together and part ways with Joe and Walky or whatever, but the inane cheating shenanigans needed to end.
Hear hear
Well, after all the people debating whether this pursuit of fiery passion over a stable romance is good or bad for Joyce, I guess we can finally say, without a doubt…
It’s BAD. REAL bad.
I never would’ve thought Sarah would be in JOE’S corner but here we are…
Holy crap! Sarah admits to being wrong? Is this some mirror-universe Sarah? No, wait, she doesn’t have a goatee…
I am so, SO glad that Sarah said it!!