Insufferable and together seem to be rather contradictory. Furthermore, I’m not bothered by them. So seemingly you find them insufferable, but they are neither intrinsically nor universally insufferable.
I’ve been playing Silksong for like a month and a half now and it is amazing. I think it is the first time I have ever bought a game on the day it was released—or, quite possibly, even the *year* it was released—and it has surpassed all expectations. There is so much world to explore.
I can’t decide if this is Joyce wanting to clarify a social misstep or her not wanting to apologise to anyone over anything she did since the protest, because she doesn’t think she’s done anything wrong.
LMAO I was going to make that Jesse Jackson reference in one of my earlier comments but decided not to, but hell yeah, Asma is NOT the arbiter of Muslims nor the arbiter of the protest.
If Asma complained about them to their faces or in a public forum, then they could apologize to her personally. As it stands, they have no idea what she thinks about it, or if it even ranks on her list of traumatic shit related to the protest.
Assuage Dorothy’s guilt, that’s like 75% of the reason she ever apologized for anything. It’s never for the other person, almost always for herself. I can’t remember if that’s ever actually been touched upon or not though. She’s not like malicious about it, it’s just a habit she’ll probably end up growing out of.
Dorothy was raised “irreligiously,” although realistically there’s only so far that goes in a society in which Christianity is normative and colors most social institutions and interactions.
Yeah, that’s considered a character flaw most of the time. If you’re *only* apologizing to assuage your own guilt and not because you actually care about the person you’re apologizing to, you end up making a bunch of hollow apologies and never changing your behavior (or just being performative af). Which Dorothy does a lot. This is actually one of my favorite character flaws in fiction because it’s incredibly common irl, and it’s a big part of why Dorothy remains one of my favorite characters. She could bring Asma a gift as a thanks for saving their lives with the bolt cutters, or do some research on how to properly contribute to the movement and some receipts for a more proper “I fucked up, here’s how I’m doing better, I’m sorry for stressing you tf out with the Jocelyne thing and not remembering your name.” But it’s more likely Dorothy’s going to apologize for the kiss and making the protest about her and Joyce, which is good for her guilt, but notably has nothing to do with Asma at all. Which is not good, but it is good, narratively.
Didn’t Amazi-Girl pull down the fence with her grappling hook? I don’t think Asma got the chance to use the bolt cutters, much less save anyone’s life.
Wait…apologizing because you feel guilty is…bad? I’m not grepping it, here; if I don’t actually *care* about the other person, why would you feel guilty for something? Doesn’t guilt imply at least some level of care for the affected person?
I’ve always thought that “apologizing because it’s the socially acceptable thing to do, and only because it’s socially required” is the hollow form of apology.
I’m genuinely confused. Maybe I need more caffeine. Maybe I’m a fundamentally broken human being.
You could absolutely feel guilt about something without truly caring about the other person; for example, you care about how you are seen by others (not that specific person) or how you see yourself, and that feels threatened.
Sometimes people apologize in ways that are more about their self-image. Sometimes the guilt people feel is more about their self-image. An apology might serve to make *you* feel better while not actually having any benefit for the other person. It might actually create a burden for the other person if creates a situation where *they’re* expected to comfort *you* about how bad *you* feel about having hurt *them.*
Guilt absolutely does not require caring about another person. I don’t think guilt even usually *involves* caring about another person?
I mean it can, but even then if you’re acting to assuage the guilt rather than assuage the hurt (often exacerbating it in the process), it’s still pretty hollow and kind of a dick move, and that’s how a lot of people do. The majority of guilt is inwards facing.
Apologizing like all things is good if you are doing good via your apology. If guilt is leading you to do good things then it’s still good things that you’re doing.
But if the apology is not helping the other person any, then it’s no longer a good thing.
I think you are astute, rather than broken. You have actual logic, which seems to be missing in many. I guess the situation here is pretty complex. And no generalisation is going to cover it.
But in general, I think you are allowed to analyse your own motives logically. We apologise for all sorts of reasons. Not least of which is admitting that you know/think you were in the wrong, the actual first step. Just that is often very helpful to an apologisee.
Whether or not Asma will feel better is not something that Joyce and Dorothy can actually determine, and consequently it should have no bearing on their decision to apologize. For that matter, how they feel about what they did should have no bearing on their decision on whether to apologize. An apology is not about how you feel, it’s about what you did. What matters when you are apologizing is that you wronged someone and that you intend not to wrong them again. Focusing on their feelings makes it about them, when you’re the one who did wrong, and focusing on your feelings makes it about you, when it’s about what you did.
Now, unless Asma has assumed personal responsibility for the protest, then whatever Joyce and Dorothy may or may not have done to damage it is not a wrong upon her. So apologizing to Asma would be inappropriately thrusting upon her the role of protest representative which she has not taken. Doing that because she happens to be a Muslim would also be racist. Not like terrible person racist, but definitely idiot white freshman racist. If they want to apologize, the correct thing to do is to find whoever is the protest representative, and if no such person can be found then accept that no apology can be delivered.
The better move with Asma would be if they wanted to check in on her, like “hey Asma, we know yesterday was really stressful and we were all kinda busy running for our lives but we wanna see if you’re alright after all of that.”
Yeah, I think that would be the best course of action. Just straight up apologizing to Asma kinda feels like she’s being designated as The Mouthpiece of Muslims
Even that might come off a little weird since they’d never spoken to her before, and often the first rule of fight protest club is don’t talk about protest club. Maybe lead in with thanking her for being prepared (with bolt cutters) and helping save their asses, but do it where it won’t potentially incriminate her.
Anxiety and autism can meet at a fun intersection where both statements can be true at the same time! I basically live at that intersection. I’ve done nothing wrong except for everything I’ve done wrong and am incapable of recognizing, so I must pour over every interaction I’ve ever had to find the odd one out.
Buddy I can’t tell if you’re sarcastic, but no way in seven hells that English is the hardest language to learn for a non-native speaker. Yes, the spelling rules are bonkers, and there are more irregular verbs than there are regular ones, but those are both problems that French has worse.
Besides, English is lingua franca for our age, meaning pretty much everyone comes into contact with it via the internet. So it becomes easier just by way of exposure. It doesn’t even have particularly crazy grammar, it’s just German-French hybridism.
Now, try learning Finnish some time and then come back with that statement.
I am certainly not going to agree with “English is the hardest language to learn”, but in terms of spelling, it’s worth noting that Spelling Bees (aka competitions based entirely around being able to correctly spell words) are an almost exclusively English-language phenomenon, to the point where the ones held in countries in Asia for example all appear to still be in English, about English spelling.
Spelling Bees are a weird concept anyway, though. I live in Actual England and have never seen one in my life, so it feels very odd to hear that they’re considered Intrinsically English somehow.
Generally when attempting to classify languages by “difficulty”, its more dependent on what the speaker’s first language is and how distant it is from the second language they’re attempting. For English speakers, languages such as Mandarin, Korean, and Arabic are considered the most complicated (and vice versa for speakers of those languages attempting to learn English) due to the difference in alphabets and grammatical structures
Yes, the spelling rules are bonkers, and there are more irregular verbs than there are regular ones, but those are both problems that French has worse.
Oh no… no. French offers a bewildering array of possible spellings for pretty much anything you hear; but once you see a word written, there’s exactly one possible way to pronounce it, except for a few very common words and a few proper names. In English the difficulty is much more symmetrical. French simply doesn’t do shit like though vs. through or mine vs. determine.
English irregular verbs, and “phrasal verbs” while I’m at it (compounds of verb + preposition), are pretty easy if you’re coming from another Germanic language. Otherwise you’re out of luck.
French has “dictées”, similar to spelling bees but with whole sentences, because why not combine hard-to-spell words with inscrutable grammatical rules that make an “s” change to a “t” when five arbitrary conditions are met.
Spelling bees also happen in Australia and Canada, so. Sorry, England.
And yes, unsurprisingly it’s French thaf does anything something similar, with other languages being like, “…no, we try to spell things the way they’re pronounced, and we have consistent rules about it, like a sensible language should.”
Spelling bees as we know them don’t map particularly well to Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, as their writing systems work a bit differently than Latin alphabets. Speakers of those languages probably have word contests that are better suited. (Can’t comment on other Asian languages.)
I am aware! It’s less true of South Korean Hangul in particular, as that is actually an alphabet. But yeah the Asia Bee I mentioned was not just East Asia, IIRC India was a specified participant.
(I will take the opportunity of having to repost this to emphasize that I know a lot less about North Korean, but I know that only South Korea has fully eliminated Hanja from its written language. It looks like North Korea uses a bit of a combo.)
I used to think this, but I’ve currently learning French from an unnaturally-colored owl, and I’m pretty sure the rules for articles and prepositions boil down to “haha, fuck you”
I am aware! It’s less true of South Korean Hangul, as that is actually an alphabet. But yeah the Asia Bee I mentioned was not just East Asia, IIRC India was a specified participant.
Then there are all the regional variations of English. It is endlessly funny that many UK English think the USA speaks English ‘wrong’ (how can one’s dialect be wrong???), but most of the differences are things that went to the USA from the UK and have remained unchanged, whereas in the UK they have diverged. So pretty pointless those that get ‘holier than thou’ about it!
England is the one country where I get a little shirty when they assume a superior posture, like. The colonial phone call is coming from inside the house y’all, your history is one of subjugating most of the rest of the world for hundreds of years. We BOTH suck, you’re not better lol.
Not everyone even pronouncespour/pour and pore the same. Stephen Colbert does not rhyme poor with Baltimore even when he’s singing a song that assumes they rhyme. Bernie Sanders doesn’t even pronounce your/you’re as yore.
Exactly this, and then when I do find that thing I did wrong, I then dwell on it and sometimes it just randomly pops into my head again and makes me feel bad about it all over again.
If I am ever just straight up told I did something that is perceived as rude against social norms, it just ruins my whole damn day because then ill just be thinking about how I could have done it differently or better. But if im NOT told that I did something wrong and I keep doing it until something bad happens because of it, it is 100% worse.
Why can’t people just say what they mean… I hate miscommunication…
I mean, one of the reasons a person might not say what they mean is that they also have anxiety. About being rude, about upsetting you, about standing up for themselves, etc.
Sometimes the dancing around what you mean IS a neuroatypical communication style. There isn’t just one; the stereotypical ‘blunt affect, extremely straightforward’ is the iconic neurodivergent communication seen portrayed and discussed, but not the only one.
For some of us talking that was is *more* of a struggle.
She’s completely right though, Asma is not the Queen of Protests and seeking her out specifically is really just to make Dorothy feel less anxious about her conduct at the protest
If a random white person who barely knew my name sought me out after a protest to ask Me to forgive them for Not Behaving Right At The Protest, like I was the fucking pope of brown people.
it would suck so bad it would warp around into funny. it would be immortalized as a horror story I tell for the rest of my life, like man car hook door.
I think Joyce is asking enough of the right kinds of questions in that last panel that I’m not terribly concerned about where her heart’s at.
Like, I wasn’t thrilled about the protest framing while it happened. But now that it’s happened, I deffo don’t want to watch Dorothy and Joyce visit all the Muslim characters to explicitly apologize for it happening. That’s like the DEFINITION of performative.
I realize its purely a cooincidence given the buffer but a character lookind dead at these two and sasaying “everything you do is great!” Feels so fucking funny in context of…everything.
Agatha’s line is absolutely intended to tweak the haters because Willis knew last year that there’d be haters on this storyline because he’s been in webcomics for decades and thus knew to eexpect haters and I think there’s even a level to which he’s actively trying to ragebait for engagement a little. Not the whole storyline, but the reason we got really muted (initial) reactions from Joe and Walky is 100% to make the comment section have kittens.
Little overly sweary, and some of the “maturity” feels very… high school idea of mature, but there’s genuinely some cool and ACTUALLY mature concepts at play.
Plus the gameplay seems really cool.
100% of Agatha and Joyce’s conversation on here felt weirdly unnatural and it lowkey bothered me. And I say that as someone who has hella unnaturally worded conversations lol
Joyce’s question in the last panel is kinda clunky. Like, I get what she’s saying and I know it’s meant to read like a run-on sentence, but it doesn’t “scan” very easily.
That’s all the hate I’ve got for this one, though. They both feel a lot more like themselves here once all the sickly-sweet talk is gone. The joke lands really well for me too!
There’s something very fun about seeing Dorothy of all people say the classic “what? No, shut up”
I’m just gonna say, it would’ve been nice if Joyce and Dorothy had been more caring about other peoples’ feelings much earlier in this storyline, before they treated a whole bunch of characters like shit. I might have supported their relationship if they had.
Oh hi there tone whiplash, nice to see you. Taffy hits it in one downthread — Joyce has officially gone from from “can’t seem to care about anything but HORNT FOR DOROTHY for more than ten seconds, stop caring about my former best friend so I can make moving-in jokes” to “sounds like a wikihow article about how to Ally”.
The only realistic thing about it is Joyce is fundamentally arguing a position that results in her and Dorothy being in the laundry room faster with fewer interactions with anyone else.
The punchline works fine in this strip, I think. It’s not expected behavior for Joyce to have such insightful commentary on this kind of topic, so it’s funny when she is able to get one over on Dorothy, who is usually better-informed.
But yeah wish Joyce’s callousness over Becky hadn’t been glossed over so quickly… “former” best friend sure is correct at this point, huh.
Also: New item for my “I’m terminally horny/romantic, but I’ve never been THAT terminally horny/romantic” checklist: I have never walked backwards down the stairs with half of a laundry basket solely because I couldn’t take my eyes off my new paramour for one goddamn second in the interests of safety.
(unless the gag is that they both need to use both hands to carry a basket of one twin sheet set and some miscellaneous laundry, in which case I think we need to be talking about physical therapy in addition to whatever else they need.)
I’m at a point where I am commenting less and less because I have like nothing nice to say? And it’s not even really hate at this point so much as total disinterest. Like this comic was completely and wholly unnecessary. Half the strips with these two together in the last couple months have been pointless. Nothing is moved forward. Though in the positives I have been checking back every 2-3 days and it’s a lot more tolerable that way. Just further drives the point home that too much time is being spent on these really mundane interactions.
I kinda wanna go back and see how many strips these two have made effectively pointless to ever bother reading because Willis pulled this and hasn’t done anything with it.
At minimum anything that involves building Joyce and Joe’s relationship is utterly irrelevant to the entirety of the story given Joyces’ current way of operating and ignoring as if any of that happened when she “broke up” with Joe
honestly makes sense to me. Joyce has been constantly fucking this stuff up, so her first thought is “wait, maybe I’m about to do this wrong”. But Dorothys not actually very good at questioning herself.
Nah probably not, and I don’t like. Blame her for that. But her parents are Nice Enough Liberals and she’s a Nice Enough Liberal who had her eyes on the prize.
eh I wouldn’t pin her as that… Dorothy seems more the time who is smart but as a concequence she’s always had convinced herself that she’s in the right and in control.
Recent events in this comic have shown that she’s not as in control as she wants to be and since this is one of the first times in her life she’s been forced to confront her assuredness of things which has caused her to lash out and do a lot of reckless things. However the “core” Dorothy is still there and she still tries to do what she thinks is the correct decision without questioning if it’s right or not.
I know women are underdiagnosed for autism due to a multitude of reasons, and yet I remain a lil surprised it took people this long to figure it out with Joyce.
Yeah, being at home around your parents (one or both of whom are likely also autistic because it runs in families) gets you a lot of “No, everyone behaves like that, what do you mean?”
Autism runs in families? Naw. I mean, sure, my dad watched old westerns and critiqued the historical inaccuracies for fun, my mom thought numbers were a better way to communicate than words, and one of my uncles taught me to play chess when I was six because nobody wanted to play against him any more, but there were no signs of autism… 😀
Exactly! Also, autism only started to be talked about and diagnosed as such appear near the tail end of the last century, so it couldn’t have been that.
Honestly, my nonwhite ass is impressed. Joyce really IS learning.
Most people take years to a lifetime to unlearn “Actually the most important thing about my racist/insensitive behavior is immediately to go to a brown person and confess/beg for absolution”.
Book Whatever Number We’re On: Another One Of Those Things People Say About Me, Vis-À-Vis Unpaid Emotional Labor To Assuage Guilt Over My Stupid Fundamentalist-Fueled Missteps
is that actually a basket? It looks more like a laundry sack… sack o’ laundry… I dunno, it kinda looks like they just somehow folded the sheets up to make a bag out of them, then stuffed some other laundry in that bag.
Given Dorothy and Joyce’ current 2-3 day track record i dont think you should apolgize to Asma right away. not that Asma doesnt deserve an apology for so many things beyond the protest also she should get a trophy or a chocolate bar or chocolate trophy. But i have a feeling Dorothy and Joyce will biff the apology and make things much worse.
Dorothy, please don’t walk backwards down the stairs while you are carrying stuff.
Also, how soaked are the sheets that it takes two of them to carry it? Are they doing the mattress too?
You know what Joyce is actually spitting. Dorothy, I love her, but sometimes she definitely has that less than sincere kind of vibe when she does this stuff.
Yay, Agatha! Loving Joyce grooving on the transgressive vibes, and loving her surprisingly insightful post-nut clarity even more! Listen to your girlfriend, Dotty! (Writing that gave me shivers).
Loving the impression that Agatha has just been standing in the hall in the same spot since they last passed her and she got off that zinger about Plato.
I don’t think that Joyce and Dorothy are the ones who owe that particular apology… there IS a certain newpaper lady who DOES 100% owe that apology but refuses to accept she did something wrong.
Joyce and Dorothy didn’t Hijack a protest for their own personal shit. They showed up when it was being taken down to try and protect Joyce’s sister and then the high stress situation pushed them to realize their feelings. The Protest was already over at that point thanks to the damn pigs.
Its not their fault that the person who was supposed to make an article about the protest decided to be a thirsty bongo and make the article feature the damn kiss.
I feel like those three should confer on making up for the whole newspaper situation… but they need to prioritize input from… *looks around at options and takes a deep breath* ….probably fkn RAIDAH if anyone on ideas on how to proceed.
Yeah I feel like Willis is mixing up their and daisy’s need to apologise for centring two white girls at a genocide protest with Dorothy and Joyce’s need to apologise for…what?! Kissing in public? Its like when they went back and changed the strip where Joyce and Dorothy first kissed in response to the justified criticism they were recieving, it feels like a way for Willis to apologise for their mistake though the mouths of their characters, except they’re chosen the wrong characters!
Sorry Willis, but you’re not going to convince me Asma is actually a character. Maybe you should have just not written the protest storyline in the first place if you don’t like people calling you out on it.
You do know Asma is one of the first characters to appear in this comic ever right? Legitimately we saw her before over half the main cast including essentially the co-star Dorothy and favs like Joe, Dina, or even Mike.
It’s arguably a bigger callout not to say Asma is not a real character, but to say you’ve had a muslim character you’ve established for years that you basically never used for anything more than background dressing and you should improve that.
Absolutely fair not to like the attempted course corrections, but weird to characterize it and all further attempts to do more with Asma as “Willis doesn’t like people calling them out on what they did with the protest”.
Nothing they’ve said anywhere I’m aware of has come remotely close to “stop thinking poorly of me for that”. I’ve seen them offer an explanation (that they had a sensitivity reader for that section but specifically held back the kiss out of a misguided protectiveness of spoilers, and regret that choice — an illustration, IMHO, that we can have the right tools to tackle a problem but still utterly fail to use them), but not excuses or attempts to minimize anything.
They’ve also acknowledged that they don’t have enough Muslim characters and that that’s a problem. They’ve brainstormed publicly over what to do about it. One of the things they’ve been trying to do is bring Asma forward more, and I imagine there are gonna keep being clumsy missteps along the way, like Raidah interrupting her conversation with Daisy to go pray, and none of this is in any way above criticism —
— like, Asma was one of the first characters in DoA, and we know almost nothing about her, that’s pretty ridiculous! It’s pretty late in the game for Willis to be thinking about her interiority in a more serious way! They should hire MORE sensitivity readers for Muslim and Jewish characters if they haven’t already done that!
…but “this is all just a performative attempt to escape criticism for the protest storyline” does not seem like an accurate criticism.
If it sucks, it sucks — sincere things can still suck! — but I don’t think it’s coming from that place.
While Joyce may end up correct, kind of a Schrodinger’s cat situation until contact is made. And hard not to feel it isn’t at least partially about not wanting to take her lumps, which I think they’ll get either way. Or atleast should, but probably won’t because I don’t think Asmanis gonna be allowed to be as mad/frustrated as she ought to be.
The “in comic it’s only been 24 hours” excuse only seems to only flow in one direction.
Why should Asma be frustrated with these two? Frustrated with Daisy, who decided that this particular pic should be the first thing anyone saw about the protest, sure. Frustrated with a society that prioritizes that image, absolutely, and I’d be with her 100%. But it’s not like Joyce and/or Dorothy hired a personal photographer to make sure they could get lots of shots about the cute little white girl protesting the college’s investments in the war.
So this is not a criticism of anyone’s response to the Joyrothy Being Cute strips, but I do wonder how much of the “meh” owes to the buildup being so incredibly long and thought about so much that it was guaranteed to feel like a letdown for some.
My sis was deep in the Avatar:the Last Airbender fanfic and theory crowd, and when they largely felt disappointed near the end, all I could think was, well yeah, in hindsight, y’all spent actual years sharing and devouring every possible take and prediction, how could their final decisions wow you?
It’s no one’s fault and the ride is good in both cases.
My “meh” comes from not giving much of a fuck about either Joyce or Dorothy’s individual romantic statuses. Combining the two into a single unit doesn’t do anything to draw me in, but it’s at least more efficiently unengaging. I’m also not much for the First Girl Wins scenario, in most cases.
I’m way more interested in what’s going on with Ruth and Billie and Alice, because goddamn are they all A Lot™.
Unless Joyce’s turn to the dark side is only beginning. It could be that this comic has been the origin story and evolution of Anit-Joyce the entire time.
My “meh” comes from the fact that nothing interesting is happening in this relationship. We had years of building up a potential toxic mess, with Joyce putting Dorothy on this impossible pedestal & Dorothy seeing Joyce as someone she needs to fix. We started on a moment of high drama, with both of them cheating on their respective boyfriends. All of this should lead to interesting fallout… but instead we just have strip after strip of them fawning over each other & talking about how perfect they are together & how glad they are that they finally snogged, and it’s. just. dull.
It’s still early days storywise, so I’m waiting and hoping for all the pieces of drama pie to get assembled like a puzzle and smashed in their dumb faces.
If the intention was actually to get readers irritated at them over their euphoric selfs-centeredness, well it didn’t quite pan out, but I applaud the concept. Sometimes an intended heel just becomes a person you don’t want to see at all, rather than a person you love to hate seeing.
As someone been who’s guilty of it way more then I’d like to admit, I think Joyce has a point about apologizing to asma being reassurance seeking behaviour on Dorothy’s part more then anything else, neither of them know asma all that well and I can’t see any version of events where it isn’t super awkward and uncomfortable for all involved, maybe if they ever become actual friends with asma then yeah an apology would be cool but as of right now it’d basically just be an apology to a random stranger who happens to be Muslim because they did something racist at a protest
Like imagine being asma in this situation and two random white lady’s your acquainces at best with try to apologize to you specifically for being racist during a protest, I think I’d punch a wall actually
Agreed, it’s not like Asma personally took an issue with it to their faces and even when Raidah brought it up to Asma, her attitude was more ‘eh’. If I was Asma, I’d feel like Joyce and Dorothy apologizing to me about the protest is less about my thoughts and more about me being a stand in for my race, as if saying “hey sorry if that was racist” to one person of that race suddenly makes it all okay. I’d be like “I’m not spokesperson for the protest or Bulmeria, go away”
I think it’s not that the action itself is necessarily racist, but that during a protest regarding genocide of a certain group of people, a couple of white women engaging in passionate make outs would be seen as being, if nothing else, very tone-deaf.
For me, when it comes to Dorothy and Joyce, I find the kissing itself to be forgivable (from a character stand point rather than a writer stand point, wanna make this clear. I completely agree that the framing of the kiss was very tone deaf. However, that’s more of an issue with how it was written/drawn versus how I judge the action itself in the context of the story) because 1) it’s a public place of course 2) it was a very emotion driven moment both because love but also because of the danger and the adrenaline of the moment 3) they didn’t go there with intent to kiss sloppy style in front of cameras just to ruin the protest. It’s also why I feel they don’t really need to apologize to Asma for kissing at the protest. Maybe express regret that they became the front page of the newspaper, but they didn’t make that choice.
Should’ve mentioned yesterday the thing I was thinking, which was that I’m pretty sure Willis has had female cis characters talk about post-nut clarity before, so regardless of how common that is IRL, it’s at least accurate to these characters.
It would’ve made this transition so much funnier. 😭
If a person’s life can be ruined by one (1) webcomic sucking according to their personal taste and preferences, it can’t have been much of a life to begin with.
Eh, mechanical dialogue like this pops up from time to time in DoA. I tend to think of it as the characters themselves being weird, box-checky liberals who overthink everything.
Yeah, Agatha’s opening line did feel like it might be intended as a weird swipe at the readers who aren’t enjoying Joyrothy’s recent actions. And I know Willis has already admitted to emergency-inserting more Asma as a response to criticism of the protest strips, so the final two panels are almost certainly that.
It definitely says something about how I talk that often when I see folks say “no one talks like that”, it’s something I would definitely literally say out loud in my own real life.
In the case of this panel, I wouldn’t say that, but I would anxiously think it very loudly. If I had someone like Dorothy in my life, though, I might say it to her.
(Whatever anyone else’s opinions of Dorothy, Joyce trusts her to both sometimes know the answer to this sort of question and to not make fun of her for asking it.)
That’s also my personal issue with that statement about “mechanical speech”. I choose to present my own statements and queries as precisely as possible, in order to minimize misunderstandings – something my wife appreciates, as she’s well aware I don’t do “hidden meanings”. This has caused people to tell me I’m being pretentious, which confuses me (is this bad? Do you want to be misunderstood?).
So yeah, when a fictional person presents as being on the spectrum and someone says, “Real people don’t talk like that!”, my response is frequently, “Am I not a real person?”
Every time I think about it I’m glad to be dating someone else who’s on the same basic wavelength. Our specific communication styles don’t always match up perfectly but we can both say “I mean what I am saying literally” and be taken at our word, which is. Such a relief after some “friendships” I’ve had.
Nah this seems like a pretty natural thing for all characters involved. Joyce’s dialogue in the last panel is stilted probably because she’s repeating something that other people said in a different context.
I don’t get the comments suggesting Asma is just a random person they chose to represent everything they are not. The conversation would be a natural continuation of their previous conversation(s), just like their encounter with Agatha here is a continuation of their last conversation when she called them gay.
Asma didn’t talk to them about kissing at the protest, the last convo they had with Asma was “hey have you seen this woman? I’m her sister” “I’m not squealing, you have cop energy”. Following that up by walking up to her the next day to say “hey sorry we kissed at the protest and wound up on the newspaper”, what’s Asma supposed to say to that?
Could do it in Red Square at the University of Washington, assuming you limit the weapons to fisticuffs and can get a cop to referee (something I learned only two days ago, despite living here most of my life!).
I do feel like, on the point of making the person in a minority who you offended take on emotional labour and comfort and educate you, Dorothy’s ‘talk to’ Asma sounds maybe worse than if she had said apologize.
Yeah, I think “apologize to her” is technically the plan (specifically, “apologize for being bad at protesting”).
On this note: I think what she wants to do (apologize for being bad at protesting specifically to the person who called her out for being bad at protesting) is less important than how it’s going to feel for Asma (which, yeah, is two white girls showing up to vent their guilty spleens at her).
(There is no way Dorothy’s apology wouldn’t also involve some form of tangenting into a self-pitying speech about how she’s been a Centrist Liberal, which is just like ??? nothing to do with Asma at all, and the kind of thing that’s better shared with, like, a therapist who’s being paid to listen.)
I just want Dorothy to commit murder, is that so much to ask? I want to see her walk up to somebody, doesn’t even have to be a named character, snap their neck, and default dance on their corpse. Every strip in which Dorothy Margot Keener is present but not murdering and Fortnite dancing on someone is a strip containing a bad and offensive portrayal of bisexuality.
Between yesterday and today, Dorothy seems to be taking on a lot of guilt for which she’s not responsible and to those to which she is not accountable.
Doesn’t mean that Becky and Asma don’t have reasons for anger or sorrow, or that it wouldn’t be nice to offer sympathy and empathy for their feelings, or even to try for constructive resolution to bad feelings, but guilt and apologies are not really called for.
Ehhhh… I kinda think guilt is called for so long as they continue to not take accountability for how they messed up.
Guilt might not be the most constructive emotion, but Dorothy is still 100% accountable for her own actions.
They centered themselves in a genocide protest and endangered Amazi Girl by staying after the organizers said people should leave…
They cheated on their boyfriends and then have been super shitty about resolving that, actively avoiding the tough conversations and then dashing off midway through.
I think what we are seeing is Dorothy being really uncomfortable not having acted as “The responsible one”. Sure, she’s moved away from her Presidential aspirations, but she still fundamentally cares about disciplined action.
On one hand Joyce might be good at helping her loosen up… On the other hand Dorothy might not like how Joyce keeps pushing Dorothy to ignore how their actions impact other people.
How did they center themselves in the protest? The police were actively breaking it up and people were fleeing by the time they did anything. The protest was over. Nor are they responsible for endangering Amazi-Girl. She made her own decisions. Since Asma got out at the same time as them, did she also endanger Amazi-Girl by staying too long? Amazi-Girl was fine when Joyrothy, Jocelyne and Asma got out, and then went back for more people. Aren’t those anonymous people much more responsible for endangering Amazi-Girl?
Grabbing a sign and planting yourself in the protest as it’s being evacuated as a way to scream against the injustice of the world (and, implicitly, your inability to have the woman you love) against the wishes and advice of other protesters is in fact centering yourself in the protest.
Objectively dotty was centering herself as a white woman and her feelings about something that, considering we’re talking on the scale of a genocide, doesn’t matter at all. She’s never even expressed any opinions about bulmeria before that day. It was hands down the whitest thing she’s ever done
The injustice of the world being that we was unknowingly part of a system that claimed to espouse the inherent right to certain liberties, but then abridged those liberties when people protested a genocide.
That sounds like a very good reason to protest, and I find this framing of “Oh she wasn’t driven by the university’s funding practices but instead by the breakdown of civil liberties in response to protests of said practices,” as if that’s some sort of gotcha, to be bizarre.
I can’t imagine any real protest would say “No you shouldn’t protest with us because you only cared about how our rights as protesters were being violated.” Like that’s one of the best support boosts a protest can have.
Question: what exactly do Dorothy and Joyce have to apologize for?
Recalling from the protest: they initially didn’t know asma’s name (maybe a little rude but since I don’t think she wears a name tag or needs to know her name to do residence business it is understandable.)
Then they ask Asma where Joyce’s sister is, something I consider a perfectly reasonable question, and get accused of having “cop energy” (despite her knowing both are students, and probably being at least dimly aware of the whole “kidnapped by psycho parents” thing (i.e. at least victims of crime at some point)
The only other thing was that their photo in the paper might have distracted people from the protests themselves, but as others have said, the one that owes the apology for that is the newspaper editor
Dorothy seems like she’s got a White Guilt™ thing going on, and she’s frequently misguided with her lefty behavior. If we wanna read motivations that haven’t been explicitly stated, it’s possible she’s latched onto Asma as like, the Nearest Involved Brown Person and hasn’t really thought that through very well. Stilted and bizarre as Joyce’s question is, she’s on an alright track.
Realistically, Dorothy and Joyce’s presence at the protest would have amounted to nothing at all for the actual cause, if Daisy could keep it in her goddamn pants for two fucking seconds and stop being a creep. They showed up like two seconds before it ended and then stuck around to make out because they’ve got no survival instincts and won’t survive the winter, and then they just happened to be near Asma for a few moments, so I guess Dorothy’s “Let’s talk to Asma about our behavior” is based on that brief proximity.
Maybe it’s the autism but i didn’t find what Joyce said all that weird. It sounds like something i would build up in my head to ask so i know i said it right.
It’s clearly referencing something that’s earlier been said to Joyce.
I feel like she’s had that tendency for a while. She parrots things her more “worldly” friends have said to her. She comes from a super sheltered fundamentalist background, so these are ideas that she just encountered for the first time recently, and she’s showing her comprehension now by properly applying these ideas, because she wants a good grade in friendship and all that jazz.
For somebody like Dorothy these are “progressive talking points” but for Joyce it’s “That cool advice Dorothy gave me. I can now show what a good listener I am by repeating it back, verbatim, in an appropriate context”
Dorothy stayed after the protest had been declared over by its leaders. At this point she was prioritizing her own little spiritual journey above the needs of the movement. It’s not the end of the world imo but it is a valid thing to regret.
She then proceeded to make out at the protest, which could be viewed as disrespectful to the dead and dying that are the subject of the protest. Your mileage may vary but even in the moment she took note of it as tactless (after Willis updated the strip), so I think it’s probably part of her regrets here.
Ultimately, neither are imo things that she should apologize to Asma for, because Asma is not some spokesperson for their people.
It’d be like in South Park, when Randy Marsh said the N word on television, then tried to get some random black celebrity to forgive him on behalf of all black people.
Asma’s not her confessional booth, there to hear her tales of how she wronged the Bulmerian people. If Dorothy regrets her actions, then what she should seek is not for the nearest Bulmerian she can find to assuage her guilt, but to take note of where she went wrong and what she’ll do differently next time.
It doesn’t sound The Bulmerian people are safe yet so she’ll have plenty opportunity to reflect this resolution in her work and deeds going forward.
I agree. The worst they did was to make out, but at that point, the police were attacking and the protest was over. They aren’t responsible for how Daisy portrayed things in the newpaper. I think Dorothy just has a lot of free-floating guilt because she got what she wanted and she doesn’t really think she deserves it, and that guilt is latching on to pretty much any plausible target.
I need help from anybody to like dumb (ha) down the dialogue for me because I’m having trouble understanding.
I think Panel 1 is Joyce trying (and failing to hide the fact) they are washing their sheets for sex reasons, calling it tacky?
Panel 2: Dorothy doesn’t want more awkward encounters so she suggests they use the stairs.
Panel 3: Joyce is okay with being seen as tacky actually, and she’s ignoring “transgressive feelings”?
Panel 4: Dorothy makes the plan to apologize to Asma.
Panel 5: Joyce asks whether she actually wants to be apologized to or is she saying something, and then Joyce would be apologizing to make her guilt go away.
I guess the word choice just has me struggling a bit.
Sounds right, yeah. Though I’d change panel 3, she’s not “ignoring” things that are considered opposed to her normal mindset (cleanliness, purity, PDA) so much as “enjoying” them this time. She’s enjoying that she’s being seen differently.
As someone who’s definitely some degree of ND myself, it’s often… interesting to interact with someone further out on the spectrum. Like, “I thought I was ____, but wow.”
(And/or, “so I guess this is what it’s like for those ‘normies’ which, I’ve been informed, supposedly exist.”)
Reminds me of that meme that goes like “Autistic people when somebody 1% more autistic than them is in the room” and there’s two characters and one of them looks agitated to some degree.
Didn’t mean to imply the way you (and others) speak confuses me.
I’d have half the mind to say the in-universe explanation is Joyce is comfortable enough around Dorothy to unmask, which is a sweet gesture.
Just wasn’t sure if it was me not understanding or was it the text being a little finicky. It may just be that I’m tired and I tend to speak in riddles a lot of the time.
If she’s unmasking and thinks like this, that’d potentially be neat to find out. It only sticks out as weird to me because Joyce doesn’t talk like this very often, if at all. At least, I don’t remember her talking this way.
I guess the difference here is, in a sense, Joyce is repeating words that have been said to her. It’s not “her” words, she’s summarizing and re-applying existing feedback which she has encountered in her own life.
I physically write all of my emails on paper, in all capital letters. Then I take a photograph of the paper and send it as a .PDF so it’s easier to use.
Taffy splits the difference: hires someone else to take the polaroid, but then shakes the photographer while the photographer is still holding the photo.
Heyyy y’all. So like I’ve mentioned before, I’m Jamaican. And we’re currently in the process of being ravaged by the strongest hurricane to ever hit us! I’ll be fine, my parents built our house with the trauma of the most devastating hurricane in our history. We are very lucky, in a good financial spot, etc etc. Most of the people here aren’t though. The eye is passing over the western side of the island, which was already battered by hurricane Beryl last year. I’m not religious but the people here really really are so, if you’re a prayer type pray for us. Keep an eye out for legitimate charities and fundraisers and GoFundMes in the upcoming weeks, spread them around if you can’t donate yourself. Not sure how the aftermath is gonna go with funding to USAID being cut, the partnership is still going according to various government websites. And the government shutdown. Hopefully your orange overlord sees this as a good pr opportunity or something. Again I’ll be fine so don’t bother worrying about me, but I am very very worried about the majority of my country, who aren’t as lucky as me. So uh, yeah. Wish us luck, we’ll need lots of it
Definitely keeping Jamaica in my thoughts. We have lots of family friends in the country, specifically in the Negril area, and it has been scary to watch.
On the one hand, more Asma would be welcome. I’d really like to see her become a fully realized character with backstory, desires, and friends. On the other hand, Dorothy please do not speak to Asma unless you have actual business doing so. Your motives are suspect and she already has made it quite clear that she doesn’t really care for you based on how much of a narc you come across as. Don’t try to force her to like you, that’ll just make people dislike you more.
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nah Dorothy, Joyce had it right the fist time! :/
Judging by the Slipshine, they probably aren’t up to fisting yet.
to be fair, that isn’t usually a go to move on a first timer lol
if you do that to a first-timer, they’re about to be a last-timer
Cue Joyce running back into Joe’s arms convinced this means she’s straight.
Judging by the main comic, they aren’t up to being likeable, either.
Christ, but these two are insufferable together.
Insufferable and together seem to be rather contradictory. Furthermore, I’m not bothered by them. So seemingly you find them insufferable, but they are neither intrinsically nor universally insufferable.
🎶 4 More Days to Halloween, Halloween, Halloween 4 More days to Halloween, Silver Shamrock 🎶
Have a like, Internet Stranger ☘️🎃
Yay! More Agatha!
I checked the archives, her 10th most recent appearance was over 7 years ago, we’ve been in a severe Agatha shortage.
Has she appeared less than Other Rachel?
Agatha has 58 appearances, which happens to be exactly double of Other Rachel, who has 29.
…yeah imma sit the comments out tonight
see yall in 24
probably a good idea
I’d rather play video games XD
Just downloaded Silksong!
heh I just downloaded slay the spire
which is funny because it’s basically “homework” Bryy gave me for an assignment hehehe XD
I’ve been playing Silksong for like a month and a half now and it is amazing. I think it is the first time I have ever bought a game on the day it was released—or, quite possibly, even the *year* it was released—and it has surpassed all expectations. There is so much world to explore.
Honestly, it’s too much for me. I feel like the game massively overstates it’s welcome.
Overstays*
Welcome the game of the year.
Way better than first Hollow Knight, but so much more difficult, too.
I can’t decide if this is Joyce wanting to clarify a social misstep or her not wanting to apologise to anyone over anything she did since the protest, because she doesn’t think she’s done anything wrong.
I think it’s a valid question, will apologizing to Asma actually make Asma feel better or is this just to assuage their own guilt?
Asma gonna be like
“whatever.”
she ain’t the arbiter of Muslims affected by the issue overseas, anymore than Jessie Jackson is the emperor of black people,
our new pair of dorks is gonna (or should) learn that this is still a racist thing to do :p
LMAO I was going to make that Jesse Jackson reference in one of my earlier comments but decided not to, but hell yeah, Asma is NOT the arbiter of Muslims nor the arbiter of the protest.
Well there’s still apologizing to someone personally, even if there isn’t apologizing to all wronged people ever through a single person.
But they didn’t wrong Asma personally. They’d still be apologizing to her as a representative of all muslims.
If Asma complained about them to their faces or in a public forum, then they could apologize to her personally. As it stands, they have no idea what she thinks about it, or if it even ranks on her list of traumatic shit related to the protest.
Assuage Dorothy’s guilt, that’s like 75% of the reason she ever apologized for anything. It’s never for the other person, almost always for herself. I can’t remember if that’s ever actually been touched upon or not though. She’s not like malicious about it, it’s just a habit she’ll probably end up growing out of.
See also: bemoaning how unfairly she treats Wally and then doing nothing to change her behavior
Good thing that’ll never be a problem in her current relationship /s
tbf i will laugh if these two become peak relationship drama fifteen seconds after dropping out of the honeymoon phase.
why do I get the feeling this is EXACTLY where this is going XD
“hey Dorothy, your Christian Atheist is showing” o3o
Her parents are Jewish, though
Ethnically Jewish, yes. I believe she was raised vaguely Catholic though.
Dorothy was raised “irreligiously,” although realistically there’s only so far that goes in a society in which Christianity is normative and colors most social institutions and interactions.
Her paternal grandmother is Jewish. Her other grandparents are Catholic.
The ‘vague Catholocism’ DOES explain some of her guilt complexes.
I mean, that is the reason most people apologize for things.
Yeah, that’s considered a character flaw most of the time. If you’re *only* apologizing to assuage your own guilt and not because you actually care about the person you’re apologizing to, you end up making a bunch of hollow apologies and never changing your behavior (or just being performative af). Which Dorothy does a lot. This is actually one of my favorite character flaws in fiction because it’s incredibly common irl, and it’s a big part of why Dorothy remains one of my favorite characters. She could bring Asma a gift as a thanks for saving their lives with the bolt cutters, or do some research on how to properly contribute to the movement and some receipts for a more proper “I fucked up, here’s how I’m doing better, I’m sorry for stressing you tf out with the Jocelyne thing and not remembering your name.” But it’s more likely Dorothy’s going to apologize for the kiss and making the protest about her and Joyce, which is good for her guilt, but notably has nothing to do with Asma at all. Which is not good, but it is good, narratively.
Didn’t Amazi-Girl pull down the fence with her grappling hook? I don’t think Asma got the chance to use the bolt cutters, much less save anyone’s life.
Asma definitely visibly used the bolt cutters. There were fences on multiple sides.
Wait…apologizing because you feel guilty is…bad? I’m not grepping it, here; if I don’t actually *care* about the other person, why would you feel guilty for something? Doesn’t guilt imply at least some level of care for the affected person?
I’ve always thought that “apologizing because it’s the socially acceptable thing to do, and only because it’s socially required” is the hollow form of apology.
I’m genuinely confused. Maybe I need more caffeine. Maybe I’m a fundamentally broken human being.
You could absolutely feel guilt about something without truly caring about the other person; for example, you care about how you are seen by others (not that specific person) or how you see yourself, and that feels threatened.
Sometimes people apologize in ways that are more about their self-image. Sometimes the guilt people feel is more about their self-image. An apology might serve to make *you* feel better while not actually having any benefit for the other person. It might actually create a burden for the other person if creates a situation where *they’re* expected to comfort *you* about how bad *you* feel about having hurt *them.*
Guilt absolutely does not require caring about another person. I don’t think guilt even usually *involves* caring about another person?
I mean it can, but even then if you’re acting to assuage the guilt rather than assuage the hurt (often exacerbating it in the process), it’s still pretty hollow and kind of a dick move, and that’s how a lot of people do. The majority of guilt is inwards facing.
Apologizing like all things is good if you are doing good via your apology. If guilt is leading you to do good things then it’s still good things that you’re doing.
But if the apology is not helping the other person any, then it’s no longer a good thing.
I think you are astute, rather than broken. You have actual logic, which seems to be missing in many. I guess the situation here is pretty complex. And no generalisation is going to cover it.
But in general, I think you are allowed to analyse your own motives logically. We apologise for all sorts of reasons. Not least of which is admitting that you know/think you were in the wrong, the actual first step. Just that is often very helpful to an apologisee.
Whether or not Asma will feel better is not something that Joyce and Dorothy can actually determine, and consequently it should have no bearing on their decision to apologize. For that matter, how they feel about what they did should have no bearing on their decision on whether to apologize. An apology is not about how you feel, it’s about what you did. What matters when you are apologizing is that you wronged someone and that you intend not to wrong them again. Focusing on their feelings makes it about them, when you’re the one who did wrong, and focusing on your feelings makes it about you, when it’s about what you did.
Now, unless Asma has assumed personal responsibility for the protest, then whatever Joyce and Dorothy may or may not have done to damage it is not a wrong upon her. So apologizing to Asma would be inappropriately thrusting upon her the role of protest representative which she has not taken. Doing that because she happens to be a Muslim would also be racist. Not like terrible person racist, but definitely idiot white freshman racist. If they want to apologize, the correct thing to do is to find whoever is the protest representative, and if no such person can be found then accept that no apology can be delivered.
The better move with Asma would be if they wanted to check in on her, like “hey Asma, we know yesterday was really stressful and we were all kinda busy running for our lives but we wanna see if you’re alright after all of that.”
Yeah, I think that would be the best course of action. Just straight up apologizing to Asma kinda feels like she’s being designated as The Mouthpiece of Muslims
This would be a perfect answer. So it’s absolutely not what they’re going to do 😛
Even that might come off a little weird since they’d never spoken to her before, and often the first rule of
fightprotest club is don’t talk about protest club. Maybe lead in with thanking her for being prepared (with bolt cutters) and helping save their asses, but do it where it won’t potentially incriminate her.Anxiety and autism can meet at a fun intersection where both statements can be true at the same time! I basically live at that intersection. I’ve done nothing wrong except for everything I’ve done wrong and am incapable of recognizing, so I must pour over every interaction I’ve ever had to find the odd one out.
Tbh that sounds more like Dorothy logic actually.
I hate to reinforce that statement, but it’s “pore” and not “pour” in that context…
TIL, thank you! I’d never seen the expression written.
Also if you drink coffee, that IS a “pour over.” Because English never met a phrase it couldn’t make more confusing.
Truly the most broken and hard to understand language.
No Wonder its the hardest language to learn for a non-native speaker.
Buddy I can’t tell if you’re sarcastic, but no way in seven hells that English is the hardest language to learn for a non-native speaker. Yes, the spelling rules are bonkers, and there are more irregular verbs than there are regular ones, but those are both problems that French has worse.
Besides, English is lingua franca for our age, meaning pretty much everyone comes into contact with it via the internet. So it becomes easier just by way of exposure. It doesn’t even have particularly crazy grammar, it’s just German-French hybridism.
Now, try learning Finnish some time and then come back with that statement.
I am certainly not going to agree with “English is the hardest language to learn”, but in terms of spelling, it’s worth noting that Spelling Bees (aka competitions based entirely around being able to correctly spell words) are an almost exclusively English-language phenomenon, to the point where the ones held in countries in Asia for example all appear to still be in English, about English spelling.
That could possibly be because the concept is imported from English-speaking countries, but fair enough.
Spelling Bees are a weird concept anyway, though. I live in Actual England and have never seen one in my life, so it feels very odd to hear that they’re considered Intrinsically English somehow.
Generally when attempting to classify languages by “difficulty”, its more dependent on what the speaker’s first language is and how distant it is from the second language they’re attempting. For English speakers, languages such as Mandarin, Korean, and Arabic are considered the most complicated (and vice versa for speakers of those languages attempting to learn English) due to the difference in alphabets and grammatical structures
As said, spelling bees aren’t an “English” thing, they’re an “American” thing.
(And maybe Canada I dunno)
Oh no… no. French offers a bewildering array of possible spellings for pretty much anything you hear; but once you see a word written, there’s exactly one possible way to pronounce it, except for a few very common words and a few proper names. In English the difficulty is much more symmetrical. French simply doesn’t do shit like though vs. through or mine vs. determine.
English irregular verbs, and “phrasal verbs” while I’m at it (compounds of verb + preposition), are pretty easy if you’re coming from another Germanic language. Otherwise you’re out of luck.
French has “dictées”, similar to spelling bees but with whole sentences, because why not combine hard-to-spell words with inscrutable grammatical rules that make an “s” change to a “t” when five arbitrary conditions are met.
Spelling bees also happen in Australia and Canada, so. Sorry, England.
And yes, unsurprisingly it’s French thaf does anything something similar, with other languages being like, “…no, we try to spell things the way they’re pronounced, and we have consistent rules about it, like a sensible language should.”
Spelling bees as we know them don’t map particularly well to Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, as their writing systems work a bit differently than Latin alphabets. Speakers of those languages probably have word contests that are better suited. (Can’t comment on other Asian languages.)
I am aware! It’s less true of South Korean Hangul in particular, as that is actually an alphabet. But yeah the Asia Bee I mentioned was not just East Asia, IIRC India was a specified participant.
(I will take the opportunity of having to repost this to emphasize that I know a lot less about North Korean, but I know that only South Korea has fully eliminated Hanja from its written language. It looks like North Korea uses a bit of a combo.)
English is the easiest language for everyone to speak poorly while still be understood because it’s so inconsistent.
I used to think this, but I’ve currently learning French from an unnaturally-colored owl, and I’m pretty sure the rules for articles and prepositions boil down to “haha, fuck you”
I am aware! It’s less true of South Korean Hangul, as that is actually an alphabet. But yeah the Asia Bee I mentioned was not just East Asia, IIRC India was a specified participant.
Bleh that was at The Queer Agenda [frog memes].
Then there are all the regional variations of English. It is endlessly funny that many UK English think the USA speaks English ‘wrong’ (how can one’s dialect be wrong???), but most of the differences are things that went to the USA from the UK and have remained unchanged, whereas in the UK they have diverged. So pretty pointless those that get ‘holier than thou’ about it!
England is the one country where I get a little shirty when they assume a superior posture, like. The colonial phone call is coming from inside the house y’all, your history is one of subjugating most of the rest of the world for hundreds of years. We BOTH suck, you’re not better lol.
mmmm… coffee 🤤☕
Not everyone even pronounces pour/pour and pore the same. Stephen Colbert does not rhyme poor with Baltimore even when he’s singing a song that assumes they rhyme. Bernie Sanders doesn’t even pronounce your/you’re as yore.
Exactly this, and then when I do find that thing I did wrong, I then dwell on it and sometimes it just randomly pops into my head again and makes me feel bad about it all over again.
If I am ever just straight up told I did something that is perceived as rude against social norms, it just ruins my whole damn day because then ill just be thinking about how I could have done it differently or better. But if im NOT told that I did something wrong and I keep doing it until something bad happens because of it, it is 100% worse.
Why can’t people just say what they mean… I hate miscommunication…
I mean, one of the reasons a person might not say what they mean is that they also have anxiety. About being rude, about upsetting you, about standing up for themselves, etc.
Sometimes the dancing around what you mean IS a neuroatypical communication style. There isn’t just one; the stereotypical ‘blunt affect, extremely straightforward’ is the iconic neurodivergent communication seen portrayed and discussed, but not the only one.
For some of us talking that was is *more* of a struggle.
Also yes!
Relatable
She’s completely right though, Asma is not the Queen of Protests and seeking her out specifically is really just to make Dorothy feel less anxious about her conduct at the protest
If a random white person who barely knew my name sought me out after a protest to ask Me to forgive them for Not Behaving Right At The Protest, like I was the fucking pope of brown people.
it would suck so bad it would warp around into funny. it would be immortalized as a horror story I tell for the rest of my life, like man car hook door.
hahahahaha RIGHT??? XD
I think Joyce is asking enough of the right kinds of questions in that last panel that I’m not terribly concerned about where her heart’s at.
Like, I wasn’t thrilled about the protest framing while it happened. But now that it’s happened, I deffo don’t want to watch Dorothy and Joyce visit all the Muslim characters to explicitly apologize for it happening. That’s like the DEFINITION of performative.
Yeah god that would suck so bad
That is a very weird read from what is a very straightforward strip.
Ngl I thought that was the gender teacher
I second that
Mormon is a gender, sure
Latter They Saints
Idk I’m tired I did my best
It made me ehehehehe like a yinglet so well done y’all
sincere slow clap
You do good work when tired. 😀
Yes, you did your best, which is pretty damn good (or at least funny as hell).
Aw shucks, thanks everyone 🙂
Me too
HATER CONTAINMENT THREAD BELOW THIS POINT
I realize its purely a cooincidence given the buffer but a character lookind dead at these two and sasaying “everything you do is great!” Feels so fucking funny in context of…everything.
Agatha would say that about a rat king, to be fair
She draws the line at Mary, though.
I do think *literally* the only time we’ve ever seen her look unhappy was from Mary being a bongo
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/04-hompk/choices/
Just wanted to link the strip after that, not because it’s in any way relevant, but because people should have the pleasure of seeing it again.
Agatha/Rat King is the REAL sicko crack pairing, all lesser ships are for cowards.
I’d read it! Better be a love ship, though. Epic love story.
Mirage Rat King? 1987 Rat King? Archie Rat King? 2003 Rat King? 2012 Rat King? IDW Rat King?
No, just like, regular rat king. (TW: describes animals in distress) Rat king wikipedia article.
Yyyep.
It might’ve come off a bit heavy-handed if Agatha wasn’t literally always like this lol
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/boyfrienddance/
This reminder was timely, because otherwise I’d’ve been in the camp that wondered if Agatha was some kind of snide author-insert commentary.
Agatha’s line is absolutely intended to tweak the haters because Willis knew last year that there’d be haters on this storyline because he’s been in webcomics for decades and thus knew to eexpect haters and I think there’s even a level to which he’s actively trying to ragebait for engagement a little. Not the whole storyline, but the reason we got really muted (initial) reactions from Joe and Walky is 100% to make the comment section have kittens.
Not a hater comment but dig the Invisgal gravatar Dispatch has been a hoot.
I’ve been digging it, yeah.
Little overly sweary, and some of the “maturity” feels very… high school idea of mature, but there’s genuinely some cool and ACTUALLY mature concepts at play.
Plus the gameplay seems really cool.
100% of Agatha and Joyce’s conversation on here felt weirdly unnatural and it lowkey bothered me. And I say that as someone who has hella unnaturally worded conversations lol
Not really considering myself a hater for that comment, it was just a negative observation and I think that counts as something that goes here?
Thinking back on Agatha’s other scenes, her whole point is being disconcertingly friendly and positive, so it feels in-character to me.
Joyce’s question in the last panel is kinda clunky. Like, I get what she’s saying and I know it’s meant to read like a run-on sentence, but it doesn’t “scan” very easily.
That’s all the hate I’ve got for this one, though. They both feel a lot more like themselves here once all the sickly-sweet talk is gone. The joke lands really well for me too!
There’s something very fun about seeing Dorothy of all people say the classic “what? No, shut up”
I’m just gonna say, it would’ve been nice if Joyce and Dorothy had been more caring about other peoples’ feelings much earlier in this storyline, before they treated a whole bunch of characters like shit. I might have supported their relationship if they had.
eyy nice visi pfp
can’t wait till wednesday
Oh hi there tone whiplash, nice to see you. Taffy hits it in one downthread — Joyce has officially gone from from “can’t seem to care about anything but HORNT FOR DOROTHY for more than ten seconds, stop caring about my former best friend so I can make moving-in jokes” to “sounds like a wikihow article about how to Ally”.
The only realistic thing about it is Joyce is fundamentally arguing a position that results in her and Dorothy being in the laundry room faster with fewer interactions with anyone else.
The punchline works fine in this strip, I think. It’s not expected behavior for Joyce to have such insightful commentary on this kind of topic, so it’s funny when she is able to get one over on Dorothy, who is usually better-informed.
But yeah wish Joyce’s callousness over Becky hadn’t been glossed over so quickly… “former” best friend sure is correct at this point, huh.
I mean, it is a pretty decent punchline as a punchline, but unless I read it in a vacuum it’s just out of place.
Also: New item for my “I’m terminally horny/romantic, but I’ve never been THAT terminally horny/romantic” checklist: I have never walked backwards down the stairs with half of a laundry basket solely because I couldn’t take my eyes off my new paramour for one goddamn second in the interests of safety.
(unless the gag is that they both need to use both hands to carry a basket of one twin sheet set and some miscellaneous laundry, in which case I think we need to be talking about physical therapy in addition to whatever else they need.)
Yeah that positioning seems more in service of better facilitating conversation than any actual need.
I’m at a point where I am commenting less and less because I have like nothing nice to say? And it’s not even really hate at this point so much as total disinterest. Like this comic was completely and wholly unnecessary. Half the strips with these two together in the last couple months have been pointless. Nothing is moved forward. Though in the positives I have been checking back every 2-3 days and it’s a lot more tolerable that way. Just further drives the point home that too much time is being spent on these really mundane interactions.
I kinda wanna go back and see how many strips these two have made effectively pointless to ever bother reading because Willis pulled this and hasn’t done anything with it.
At minimum anything that involves building Joyce and Joe’s relationship is utterly irrelevant to the entirety of the story given Joyces’ current way of operating and ignoring as if any of that happened when she “broke up” with Joe
*rabble rabble hate hate insult insult*
Will say it’s very funny that Joyce has a better grasp of the etiquette of this stuff than Dorothy
honestly makes sense to me. Joyce has been constantly fucking this stuff up, so her first thought is “wait, maybe I’m about to do this wrong”. But Dorothys not actually very good at questioning herself.
Dorothy also strikes me as the kind of liberal who’s never been to an action in her life
Nah probably not, and I don’t like. Blame her for that. But her parents are Nice Enough Liberals and she’s a Nice Enough Liberal who had her eyes on the prize.
eh I wouldn’t pin her as that… Dorothy seems more the time who is smart but as a concequence she’s always had convinced herself that she’s in the right and in control.
Recent events in this comic have shown that she’s not as in control as she wants to be and since this is one of the first times in her life she’s been forced to confront her assuredness of things which has caused her to lash out and do a lot of reckless things. However the “core” Dorothy is still there and she still tries to do what she thinks is the correct decision without questioning if it’s right or not.
What tipped you off? Besides literally everything she did at that protest, I mean.
Didn’t Billy/Jennifer cover this already about Dorothy and charisma? xD
I know women are underdiagnosed for autism due to a multitude of reasons, and yet I remain a lil surprised it took people this long to figure it out with Joyce.
Good luck fellow autist, have fun
Homeschooled and Christian, so… yeah. I’m not surprised.
Yeah, being at home around your parents (one or both of whom are likely also autistic because it runs in families) gets you a lot of “No, everyone behaves like that, what do you mean?”
Autism runs in families? Naw. I mean, sure, my dad watched old westerns and critiqued the historical inaccuracies for fun, my mom thought numbers were a better way to communicate than words, and one of my uncles taught me to play chess when I was six because nobody wanted to play against him any more, but there were no signs of autism… 😀
Exactly! Also, autism only started to
be talked about and diagnosed as suchappear near the tail end of the last century, so it couldn’t have been that.Honestly, my nonwhite ass is impressed. Joyce really IS learning.
Most people take years to a lifetime to unlearn “Actually the most important thing about my racist/insensitive behavior is immediately to go to a brown person and confess/beg for absolution”.
Book Whatever Number We’re On: Another One Of Those Things People Say About Me, Vis-À-Vis Unpaid Emotional Labor To Assuage Guilt Over My Stupid Fundamentalist-Fueled Missteps
I am not the person that asked for more Agatha but I am happy to see more Agatha
So sesbian lex leads to sudden social awareness. Who knew?
Somehow, nobody considered for an entire month that the girls were being maximum insufferable because they just needed to Slipshine to completion.
On the off chance that this isn’t just you making fun of the TikTok censorship stuff, you do not need to do that here.
Also how heavy is the laundry basket that they need to both carry it like that
Depends on how wet the sheets got.
is that actually a basket? It looks more like a laundry sack… sack o’ laundry… I dunno, it kinda looks like they just somehow folded the sheets up to make a bag out of them, then stuffed some other laundry in that bag.
There are some laundry hampers that are more of a fabric/sack thing with maybe the bare minimum of a wire lining in them.
My laundry hampter is a very sturdy basket, but with a removable lining that is basically a cloth bag. That’s what I carry to the laundry room.
And why aren’t they carrying it down the stairs side by side, so Dorothy can use the other handrail? Why go down backwards?
This bothered me more than any social errors they may be considering.
Dorothy should go down the stairs, and then Joyce teleport to her with the laundry
Joyce over here talkin’ like a wiki article
Is it legal to call her the F-slur if I ain’t even a gender
well afaik she ain’t a Fandom wiki if that’s what you mean o3o
Hey, can you use at least an asterisk when you say F*nd*m? 🤭
I prefer to spell it https://ph.kuuro.net/ (it’s a site that grabs Fandom articles without the ads and layout nonsense).
HOLY FUCK THANK YOU! 🙌🏽
hope exists yet!
I used to use Breezewiki for that, but apparently they shut it down because Phantom is much more efficient.
Grazie! It’s actually fucking usable now.
Given Dorothy and Joyce’ current 2-3 day track record i dont think you should apolgize to Asma right away. not that Asma doesnt deserve an apology for so many things beyond the protest also she should get a trophy or a chocolate bar or chocolate trophy. But i have a feeling Dorothy and Joyce will biff the apology and make things much worse.
I would not complain about an Asma apology if it was just Joyce frantically dropping off a chocolate bar, sans context.
Maybe with a little back and forth, a la her incredible “confrontation” with Jason at Galasso’s (probably in my top 5 strips of all time)
The strip in question: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/twentyoneandflee/
Dorothy, please don’t walk backwards down the stairs while you are carrying stuff.
Also, how soaked are the sheets that it takes two of them to carry it? Are they doing the mattress too?
guarantee they just want to hold hands or similar
Even when they aren’t “doing”
each otheranything, they can’t be outside each other’s sight for more than a couple of minutes.You know what Joyce is actually spitting. Dorothy, I love her, but sometimes she definitely has that less than sincere kind of vibe when she does this stuff.
Don’t trust elevators……in most emergency situations.
Dorothy’s learned that walking into an elevator is just an opportunity for a dramatically-timed Walky to fall from the ceiling
(He was trying to hang upside down by his shoelaces, if you recall)
Yay, Agatha! Loving Joyce grooving on the transgressive vibes, and loving her surprisingly insightful post-nut clarity even more! Listen to your girlfriend, Dotty! (Writing that gave me shivers).
Loving the impression that Agatha has just been standing in the hall in the same spot since they last passed her and she got off that zinger about Plato.
apropos of nothing,
I improvised a makeshift sensory/pressure vest with a down vest with a zipper, some shoe laces, and some spare elastic belt thingies
I swear I’ve never felt so relaxed 😌☺️🤤
That sounds cozy
“Take the stairs.” Gee, I wonder why Dorothy wants to carry a heavy load of laundry down the stairs?
Hi, Agatha!
Honestly, Dorothy? More people need post-nut clarity for personal introspection like Joyce has.
I don’t think that Joyce and Dorothy are the ones who owe that particular apology… there IS a certain newpaper lady who DOES 100% owe that apology but refuses to accept she did something wrong.
Joyce and Dorothy didn’t Hijack a protest for their own personal shit. They showed up when it was being taken down to try and protect Joyce’s sister and then the high stress situation pushed them to realize their feelings. The Protest was already over at that point thanks to the damn pigs.
Its not their fault that the person who was supposed to make an article about the protest decided to be a thirsty bongo and make the article feature the damn kiss.
I feel like those three should confer on making up for the whole newspaper situation… but they need to prioritize input from… *looks around at options and takes a deep breath* ….probably fkn RAIDAH if anyone on ideas on how to proceed.
Yeah I feel like Willis is mixing up their and daisy’s need to apologise for centring two white girls at a genocide protest with Dorothy and Joyce’s need to apologise for…what?! Kissing in public? Its like when they went back and changed the strip where Joyce and Dorothy first kissed in response to the justified criticism they were recieving, it feels like a way for Willis to apologise for their mistake though the mouths of their characters, except they’re chosen the wrong characters!
Seems more like Dorothy and Joyce are, for entirely in-character reasons, trying to apologize for something they don’t need to apologize for.
Dumbing of Age Book Fifteen: How Is This Your Post-Nut Clarity?
I vote this one
I second the vote for this to be the title.
Checking again
Sorry Willis, but you’re not going to convince me Asma is actually a character. Maybe you should have just not written the protest storyline in the first place if you don’t like people calling you out on it.
…huh???
so what Asma can never be a character just because she wasn’t already playing a narrative role?
mind you Dina was once just a background character, just sayin XD
and who knows? she might also turn to be someone’s most favorite in the world <3
Do you think she’s more fictional than the others?
Yeah, let’s not improve things. We wouldn’t want our hot takes to run cold, that’d be terrible.
You do know Asma is one of the first characters to appear in this comic ever right? Legitimately we saw her before over half the main cast including essentially the co-star Dorothy and favs like Joe, Dina, or even Mike.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/reputation/
It’s arguably a bigger callout not to say Asma is not a real character, but to say you’ve had a muslim character you’ve established for years that you basically never used for anything more than background dressing and you should improve that.
Hey, is the weather good in your dimension?
It’s been nice, but we aren’t getting enough rain and that’s going to cost later.
Absolutely fair not to like the attempted course corrections, but weird to characterize it and all further attempts to do more with Asma as “Willis doesn’t like people calling them out on what they did with the protest”.
Nothing they’ve said anywhere I’m aware of has come remotely close to “stop thinking poorly of me for that”. I’ve seen them offer an explanation (that they had a sensitivity reader for that section but specifically held back the kiss out of a misguided protectiveness of spoilers, and regret that choice — an illustration, IMHO, that we can have the right tools to tackle a problem but still utterly fail to use them), but not excuses or attempts to minimize anything.
They’ve also acknowledged that they don’t have enough Muslim characters and that that’s a problem. They’ve brainstormed publicly over what to do about it. One of the things they’ve been trying to do is bring Asma forward more, and I imagine there are gonna keep being clumsy missteps along the way, like Raidah interrupting her conversation with Daisy to go pray, and none of this is in any way above criticism —
— like, Asma was one of the first characters in DoA, and we know almost nothing about her, that’s pretty ridiculous! It’s pretty late in the game for Willis to be thinking about her interiority in a more serious way! They should hire MORE sensitivity readers for Muslim and Jewish characters if they haven’t already done that!
…but “this is all just a performative attempt to escape criticism for the protest storyline” does not seem like an accurate criticism.
If it sucks, it sucks — sincere things can still suck! — but I don’t think it’s coming from that place.
While Joyce may end up correct, kind of a Schrodinger’s cat situation until contact is made. And hard not to feel it isn’t at least partially about not wanting to take her lumps, which I think they’ll get either way. Or atleast should, but probably won’t because I don’t think Asmanis gonna be allowed to be as mad/frustrated as she ought to be.
The “in comic it’s only been 24 hours” excuse only seems to only flow in one direction.
Why should Asma be frustrated with these two? Frustrated with Daisy, who decided that this particular pic should be the first thing anyone saw about the protest, sure. Frustrated with a society that prioritizes that image, absolutely, and I’d be with her 100%. But it’s not like Joyce and/or Dorothy hired a personal photographer to make sure they could get lots of shots about the cute little white girl protesting the college’s investments in the war.
So this is not a criticism of anyone’s response to the Joyrothy Being Cute strips, but I do wonder how much of the “meh” owes to the buildup being so incredibly long and thought about so much that it was guaranteed to feel like a letdown for some.
My sis was deep in the Avatar:the Last Airbender fanfic and theory crowd, and when they largely felt disappointed near the end, all I could think was, well yeah, in hindsight, y’all spent actual years sharing and devouring every possible take and prediction, how could their final decisions wow you?
It’s no one’s fault and the ride is good in both cases.
My “meh” comes from not giving much of a fuck about either Joyce or Dorothy’s individual romantic statuses. Combining the two into a single unit doesn’t do anything to draw me in, but it’s at least more efficiently unengaging. I’m also not much for the First Girl Wins scenario, in most cases.
I’m way more interested in what’s going on with Ruth and Billie and Alice, because goddamn are they all A Lot™.
re: “combining the two”
yeah… it’s like combining a graham cracker with a shortbread cookie,
it’s sweet and all but they’re too similar to have any interesting flavor result
now add some dark chocolate or marshmallows, maybe some salty ice cream, then we’d be getting somewhere
Unless Joyce’s turn to the dark side is only beginning. It could be that this comic has been the origin story and evolution of Anit-Joyce the entire time.
Nah, I don’t buy it either.
Agreed, give me Ruth-Billie-Alice drama to shove in my face like Arthur eating cake
*sniff sniff* “are you having CAKE?” XD
My “meh” comes from the fact that nothing interesting is happening in this relationship. We had years of building up a potential toxic mess, with Joyce putting Dorothy on this impossible pedestal & Dorothy seeing Joyce as someone she needs to fix. We started on a moment of high drama, with both of them cheating on their respective boyfriends. All of this should lead to interesting fallout… but instead we just have strip after strip of them fawning over each other & talking about how perfect they are together & how glad they are that they finally snogged, and it’s. just. dull.
It will make it more poignant when Dorothy’s death brings Joyce and Walky together.
It’s still early days storywise, so I’m waiting and hoping for all the pieces of drama pie to get assembled like a puzzle and smashed in their dumb faces.
If the intention was actually to get readers irritated at them over their euphoric selfs-centeredness, well it didn’t quite pan out, but I applaud the concept. Sometimes an intended heel just becomes a person you don’t want to see at all, rather than a person you love to hate seeing.
I woulda said that 4 months ago.
I think 4 months is a totally reasonable frame of time to wait for something to happen in your story.
It has still been less than a full day since they kissed, though.
As someone been who’s guilty of it way more then I’d like to admit, I think Joyce has a point about apologizing to asma being reassurance seeking behaviour on Dorothy’s part more then anything else, neither of them know asma all that well and I can’t see any version of events where it isn’t super awkward and uncomfortable for all involved, maybe if they ever become actual friends with asma then yeah an apology would be cool but as of right now it’d basically just be an apology to a random stranger who happens to be Muslim because they did something racist at a protest
Like imagine being asma in this situation and two random white lady’s your acquainces at best with try to apologize to you specifically for being racist during a protest, I think I’d punch a wall actually
Agreed, it’s not like Asma personally took an issue with it to their faces and even when Raidah brought it up to Asma, her attitude was more ‘eh’. If I was Asma, I’d feel like Joyce and Dorothy apologizing to me about the protest is less about my thoughts and more about me being a stand in for my race, as if saying “hey sorry if that was racist” to one person of that race suddenly makes it all okay. I’d be like “I’m not spokesperson for the protest or Bulmeria, go away”
Woa. Back up. Kissing at a protest is racist? Could you explain?
Question asked of Bongoplush, not Doopyboop. But whoever answers.
I think it’s not that the action itself is necessarily racist, but that during a protest regarding genocide of a certain group of people, a couple of white women engaging in passionate make outs would be seen as being, if nothing else, very tone-deaf.
For me, when it comes to Dorothy and Joyce, I find the kissing itself to be forgivable (from a character stand point rather than a writer stand point, wanna make this clear. I completely agree that the framing of the kiss was very tone deaf. However, that’s more of an issue with how it was written/drawn versus how I judge the action itself in the context of the story) because 1) it’s a public place of course 2) it was a very emotion driven moment both because love but also because of the danger and the adrenaline of the moment 3) they didn’t go there with intent to kiss sloppy style in front of cameras just to ruin the protest. It’s also why I feel they don’t really need to apologize to Asma for kissing at the protest. Maybe express regret that they became the front page of the newspaper, but they didn’t make that choice.
/snaps fingers
Should’ve mentioned yesterday the thing I was thinking, which was that I’m pretty sure Willis has had female cis characters talk about post-nut clarity before, so regardless of how common that is IRL, it’s at least accurate to these characters.
It would’ve made this transition so much funnier. 😭
Sal mentioned it at the “keg party” to Amber, in regards to the Mary Sue incident when Sal saved a frame on the Super Mario no-tool speedrun.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/04-for-me-it-was-tuesday/framerate/
Holy SHIT Joyce, well done on that epiphany, that one doesn’t usually come this readily
Speaking of vibes this strip feels weird and box-checky like it was made as a response to complaints. Is this one of the extra inserts?
The dialogue is unusually mechanical, so maybe. I’m not much for that variety of speculation, though. Tends to drive a body batty.
Eh I ain’t gonna write any essays about why this comic sucks and my life is now ruined over it. Go next.
If a person’s life can be ruined by one (1) webcomic sucking according to their personal taste and preferences, it can’t have been much of a life to begin with.
I deny Mike is dead, so it couldn’t have been ruined.
Eh, mechanical dialogue like this pops up from time to time in DoA. I tend to think of it as the characters themselves being weird, box-checky liberals who overthink everything.
I recall reading Willis saying they default to characters doing “Dina-talk” when writing while feeling under the weather too.
Yeah, Agatha’s opening line did feel like it might be intended as a weird swipe at the readers who aren’t enjoying Joyrothy’s recent actions. And I know Willis has already admitted to emergency-inserting more Asma as a response to criticism of the protest strips, so the final two panels are almost certainly that.
My thoughts as well.
It definitely says something about how I talk that often when I see folks say “no one talks like that”, it’s something I would definitely literally say out loud in my own real life.
In the case of this panel, I wouldn’t say that, but I would anxiously think it very loudly. If I had someone like Dorothy in my life, though, I might say it to her.
(Whatever anyone else’s opinions of Dorothy, Joyce trusts her to both sometimes know the answer to this sort of question and to not make fun of her for asking it.)
That’s also my personal issue with that statement about “mechanical speech”. I choose to present my own statements and queries as precisely as possible, in order to minimize misunderstandings – something my wife appreciates, as she’s well aware I don’t do “hidden meanings”. This has caused people to tell me I’m being pretentious, which confuses me (is this bad? Do you want to be misunderstood?).
So yeah, when a fictional person presents as being on the spectrum and someone says, “Real people don’t talk like that!”, my response is frequently, “Am I not a real person?”
Every time I think about it I’m glad to be dating someone else who’s on the same basic wavelength. Our specific communication styles don’t always match up perfectly but we can both say “I mean what I am saying literally” and be taken at our word, which is. Such a relief after some “friendships” I’ve had.
Yeah it just doesn’t seem all that weird to me either. I think mistake “nobody i know talk like that” with “nobody ever talk like that”.
Nah this seems like a pretty natural thing for all characters involved. Joyce’s dialogue in the last panel is stilted probably because she’s repeating something that other people said in a different context.
I hadn’t thought about it from that angle.
I don’t get the comments suggesting Asma is just a random person they chose to represent everything they are not. The conversation would be a natural continuation of their previous conversation(s), just like their encounter with Agatha here is a continuation of their last conversation when she called them gay.
Asma didn’t talk to them about kissing at the protest, the last convo they had with Asma was “hey have you seen this woman? I’m her sister” “I’m not squealing, you have cop energy”. Following that up by walking up to her the next day to say “hey sorry we kissed at the protest and wound up on the newspaper”, what’s Asma supposed to say to that?
As a pair of sapphics in a relationship they’re a minority now and need the blessing of a super-minority to unlock their powers.
I can only imagine Asma shoving her hand in Joyce’s mouth and using her head as a boxing glove to smack Dorothy with.
If this doesn’t happen next strip, Willis is a coward and a charlatan and I will challenge them to a duel in the square.
Which square? Details are important.
Could do it in Red Square at the University of Washington, assuming you limit the weapons to fisticuffs and can get a cop to referee (something I learned only two days ago, despite living here most of my life!).
Wow!
I’ve lived in Seattle all 45 years if my life, and I also didn’t know that Red Square was open-ish for fist-dueling!
I do feel like, on the point of making the person in a minority who you offended take on emotional labour and comfort and educate you, Dorothy’s ‘talk to’ Asma sounds maybe worse than if she had said apologize.
Apologize for what, though? That’s also important.
Yeah, I think “apologize to her” is technically the plan (specifically, “apologize for being bad at protesting”).
On this note: I think what she wants to do (apologize for being bad at protesting specifically to the person who called her out for being bad at protesting) is less important than how it’s going to feel for Asma (which, yeah, is two white girls showing up to vent their guilty spleens at her).
(There is no way Dorothy’s apology wouldn’t also involve some form of tangenting into a self-pitying speech about how she’s been a Centrist Liberal, which is just like ??? nothing to do with Asma at all, and the kind of thing that’s better shared with, like, a therapist who’s being paid to listen.)
I just want Dorothy to commit murder, is that so much to ask? I want to see her walk up to somebody, doesn’t even have to be a named character, snap their neck, and default dance on their corpse. Every strip in which Dorothy Margot Keener is present but not murdering and Fortnite dancing on someone is a strip containing a bad and offensive portrayal of bisexuality.
I’m going to assume that applies to every comic in existence and not just this one.
Right now, Mary Worth desperately needs someone to snap her neck and dance on the corpse.
Honestly, the Dorothy Strip was my favorite part of Calvin and Hobbes.
What good hanky-panky does to a mf
Post-Nut Emotional Self-Awareness
Everything has its downside.
Aggiez!✨😌
AGATHA!!!!!
Between yesterday and today, Dorothy seems to be taking on a lot of guilt for which she’s not responsible and to those to which she is not accountable.
Doesn’t mean that Becky and Asma don’t have reasons for anger or sorrow, or that it wouldn’t be nice to offer sympathy and empathy for their feelings, or even to try for constructive resolution to bad feelings, but guilt and apologies are not really called for.
Ehhhh… I kinda think guilt is called for so long as they continue to not take accountability for how they messed up.
Guilt might not be the most constructive emotion, but Dorothy is still 100% accountable for her own actions.
They centered themselves in a genocide protest and endangered Amazi Girl by staying after the organizers said people should leave…
They cheated on their boyfriends and then have been super shitty about resolving that, actively avoiding the tough conversations and then dashing off midway through.
I think what we are seeing is Dorothy being really uncomfortable not having acted as “The responsible one”. Sure, she’s moved away from her Presidential aspirations, but she still fundamentally cares about disciplined action.
On one hand Joyce might be good at helping her loosen up… On the other hand Dorothy might not like how Joyce keeps pushing Dorothy to ignore how their actions impact other people.
How did they center themselves in the protest? The police were actively breaking it up and people were fleeing by the time they did anything. The protest was over. Nor are they responsible for endangering Amazi-Girl. She made her own decisions. Since Asma got out at the same time as them, did she also endanger Amazi-Girl by staying too long? Amazi-Girl was fine when Joyrothy, Jocelyne and Asma got out, and then went back for more people. Aren’t those anonymous people much more responsible for endangering Amazi-Girl?
Grabbing a sign and planting yourself in the protest as it’s being evacuated as a way to scream against the injustice of the world (and, implicitly, your inability to have the woman you love) against the wishes and advice of other protesters is in fact centering yourself in the protest.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/04-the-only-exception/evacuating/
^ Dorothy did not storm into Dunn Meadow out of righteous indignation for the suffering of [UNNAMED BULMERIAN MINORITY].
Objectively dotty was centering herself as a white woman and her feelings about something that, considering we’re talking on the scale of a genocide, doesn’t matter at all. She’s never even expressed any opinions about bulmeria before that day. It was hands down the whitest thing she’s ever done
The injustice of the world being that we was unknowingly part of a system that claimed to espouse the inherent right to certain liberties, but then abridged those liberties when people protested a genocide.
That sounds like a very good reason to protest, and I find this framing of “Oh she wasn’t driven by the university’s funding practices but instead by the breakdown of civil liberties in response to protests of said practices,” as if that’s some sort of gotcha, to be bizarre.
I can’t imagine any real protest would say “No you shouldn’t protest with us because you only cared about how our rights as protesters were being violated.” Like that’s one of the best support boosts a protest can have.
Hi, Agatha!
Bye, Agatha!
*waves* See you again in 5 years!
Damn right they have to apologize after cheating Asma.
Asma should have been on that front page, kissing Dorothy.
Dammit Joyce!
Joyce goes for deep philosophical discussions.
I usually want a nap after sex.
Ahhh, post-nut clarity, how I love you when you’re here. And miss you when you’re gone.
Question: what exactly do Dorothy and Joyce have to apologize for?
Recalling from the protest: they initially didn’t know asma’s name (maybe a little rude but since I don’t think she wears a name tag or needs to know her name to do residence business it is understandable.)
Then they ask Asma where Joyce’s sister is, something I consider a perfectly reasonable question, and get accused of having “cop energy” (despite her knowing both are students, and probably being at least dimly aware of the whole “kidnapped by psycho parents” thing (i.e. at least victims of crime at some point)
The only other thing was that their photo in the paper might have distracted people from the protests themselves, but as others have said, the one that owes the apology for that is the newspaper editor
Dorothy seems like she’s got a White Guilt™ thing going on, and she’s frequently misguided with her lefty behavior. If we wanna read motivations that haven’t been explicitly stated, it’s possible she’s latched onto Asma as like, the Nearest Involved Brown Person and hasn’t really thought that through very well. Stilted and bizarre as Joyce’s question is, she’s on an alright track.
Realistically, Dorothy and Joyce’s presence at the protest would have amounted to nothing at all for the actual cause, if Daisy could keep it in her goddamn pants for two fucking seconds and stop being a creep. They showed up like two seconds before it ended and then stuck around to make out because they’ve got no survival instincts and won’t survive the winter, and then they just happened to be near Asma for a few moments, so I guess Dorothy’s “Let’s talk to Asma about our behavior” is based on that brief proximity.
Maybe it’s the autism but i didn’t find what Joyce said all that weird. It sounds like something i would build up in my head to ask so i know i said it right.
It’s clearly referencing something that’s earlier been said to Joyce.
I feel like she’s had that tendency for a while. She parrots things her more “worldly” friends have said to her. She comes from a super sheltered fundamentalist background, so these are ideas that she just encountered for the first time recently, and she’s showing her comprehension now by properly applying these ideas, because she wants a good grade in friendship and all that jazz.
For somebody like Dorothy these are “progressive talking points” but for Joyce it’s “That cool advice Dorothy gave me. I can now show what a good listener I am by repeating it back, verbatim, in an appropriate context”
I’m sure plenty of people talk like that, but Joyce typically doesn’t. It’s constructed like a puzzle, in a way.
Dorothy stayed after the protest had been declared over by its leaders. At this point she was prioritizing her own little spiritual journey above the needs of the movement. It’s not the end of the world imo but it is a valid thing to regret.
She then proceeded to make out at the protest, which could be viewed as disrespectful to the dead and dying that are the subject of the protest. Your mileage may vary but even in the moment she took note of it as tactless (after Willis updated the strip), so I think it’s probably part of her regrets here.
Ultimately, neither are imo things that she should apologize to Asma for, because Asma is not some spokesperson for their people.
It’d be like in South Park, when Randy Marsh said the N word on television, then tried to get some random black celebrity to forgive him on behalf of all black people.
Asma’s not her confessional booth, there to hear her tales of how she wronged the Bulmerian people. If Dorothy regrets her actions, then what she should seek is not for the nearest Bulmerian she can find to assuage her guilt, but to take note of where she went wrong and what she’ll do differently next time.
It doesn’t sound The Bulmerian people are safe yet so she’ll have plenty opportunity to reflect this resolution in her work and deeds going forward.
I agree. The worst they did was to make out, but at that point, the police were attacking and the protest was over. They aren’t responsible for how Daisy portrayed things in the newpaper. I think Dorothy just has a lot of free-floating guilt because she got what she wanted and she doesn’t really think she deserves it, and that guilt is latching on to pretty much any plausible target.
I need help from anybody to like dumb (ha) down the dialogue for me because I’m having trouble understanding.
I think Panel 1 is Joyce trying (and failing to hide the fact) they are washing their sheets for sex reasons, calling it tacky?
Panel 2: Dorothy doesn’t want more awkward encounters so she suggests they use the stairs.
Panel 3: Joyce is okay with being seen as tacky actually, and she’s ignoring “transgressive feelings”?
Panel 4: Dorothy makes the plan to apologize to Asma.
Panel 5: Joyce asks whether she actually wants to be apologized to or is she saying something, and then Joyce would be apologizing to make her guilt go away.
I guess the word choice just has me struggling a bit.
Sounds right, yeah. Though I’d change panel 3, she’s not “ignoring” things that are considered opposed to her normal mindset (cleanliness, purity, PDA) so much as “enjoying” them this time. She’s enjoying that she’s being seen differently.
That’s basically it. Joyce is on some weird shit in that last panel, so the confusion is understandable. Over here talkin’ like an email.
In fairness to Willis I think part of the joke is supposed to be how Joyce is talking.
As someone who’s definitely some degree of ND myself, it’s often… interesting to interact with someone further out on the spectrum. Like, “I thought I was ____, but wow.”
(And/or, “so I guess this is what it’s like for those ‘normies’ which, I’ve been informed, supposedly exist.”)
Reminds me of that meme that goes like “Autistic people when somebody 1% more autistic than them is in the room” and there’s two characters and one of them looks agitated to some degree.
Haven’t seen that one, but sounds about right.
Talking the way a substantial portion of the audience apparently does, myself included.
Didn’t mean to imply the way you (and others) speak confuses me.
I’d have half the mind to say the in-universe explanation is Joyce is comfortable enough around Dorothy to unmask, which is a sweet gesture.
Just wasn’t sure if it was me not understanding or was it the text being a little finicky. It may just be that I’m tired and I tend to speak in riddles a lot of the time.
If she’s unmasking and thinks like this, that’d potentially be neat to find out. It only sticks out as weird to me because Joyce doesn’t talk like this very often, if at all. At least, I don’t remember her talking this way.
I guess the difference here is, in a sense, Joyce is repeating words that have been said to her. It’s not “her” words, she’s summarizing and re-applying existing feedback which she has encountered in her own life.
Alright.
Well, let’s be fair, it’s not that the way you and I talk doesn’t ever confuse people.
I mean, we’re typing. Like in an email.
I physically write all of my emails on paper, in all capital letters. Then I take a photograph of the paper and send it as a .PDF so it’s easier to use.
Like a polaroid photograph or the kind you have to develop yourself?
Taffy splits the difference: hires someone else to take the polaroid, but then shakes the photographer while the photographer is still holding the photo.
I’ll wait my 2 cups of coffee kick in, to interpret this last speech of Joyce.
tl, dr
Heyyy y’all. So like I’ve mentioned before, I’m Jamaican. And we’re currently in the process of being ravaged by the strongest hurricane to ever hit us! I’ll be fine, my parents built our house with the trauma of the most devastating hurricane in our history. We are very lucky, in a good financial spot, etc etc. Most of the people here aren’t though. The eye is passing over the western side of the island, which was already battered by hurricane Beryl last year. I’m not religious but the people here really really are so, if you’re a prayer type pray for us. Keep an eye out for legitimate charities and fundraisers and GoFundMes in the upcoming weeks, spread them around if you can’t donate yourself. Not sure how the aftermath is gonna go with funding to USAID being cut, the partnership is still going according to various government websites. And the government shutdown. Hopefully your orange overlord sees this as a good pr opportunity or something. Again I’ll be fine so don’t bother worrying about me, but I am very very worried about the majority of my country, who aren’t as lucky as me. So uh, yeah. Wish us luck, we’ll need lots of it
Best of luck, and stay safe! Will definitely be on the lookout for ways to help.
Definitely keeping Jamaica in my thoughts. We have lots of family friends in the country, specifically in the Negril area, and it has been scary to watch.
Oof, my heart goes out to them and you. I hope everything goes well for them
Good luck to you all, may Oya have mercy with the storm.
And may this storm move slight to south, in direction to some God Damned aircraft carriers.
Asé
Is there someone we can bribe to have it make its way to a certain orange president’s home? Does Mother Nature have a Venmo?
currently studying for this (witchcraft)
Sending good thoughts in your direction 😞 How scary.
Sending my best thoughts and hopes for you guys! As someone from Florida, I know how awful these hurricanes can get.
that’s awful! wishing you and ya folk stay safe! T~T
sendin good vibes ya way!
*plays “Alright” by Kendrick Lamar on hacked muzak*
agatha really is almost excessively nice
OFF: I AM NOT definitely getting pegged.
You know what, after looking back over her previous appearances, I concur. We DO need more Agatha. She rocks.
She def sounds like she’s seen sheets washed before.
Hi Agatha.
On the one hand, more Asma would be welcome. I’d really like to see her become a fully realized character with backstory, desires, and friends. On the other hand, Dorothy please do not speak to Asma unless you have actual business doing so. Your motives are suspect and she already has made it quite clear that she doesn’t really care for you based on how much of a narc you come across as. Don’t try to force her to like you, that’ll just make people dislike you more.
I haven’t seen Agatha in so long I thought that was Leslie coming to check on Becky, but alas.
https://www.tumblr.com/dumbingofage/798609368519163904/please-accept-this-bullshit-thought-demon-i-have?source=share
I am stealing thought demons that shit is good.
imma alien parasite who be thought demon-ing forever :p >:3
Getting Dandadan on this biz.
DANDADAN MENTION! ^-^
we got the teen romance, the drama, all that’s missing are us ALIENS >:3
*plays Otonoke by Creepy Nuts on hacked muzak*
Dorothy annoying