Oh, she’s nowhere near as bad as Joyce was. Becky’s only really cringe element is her ‘reason’ for her atheism, which is, to be blunt, incel logic (“My crush doesn’t love me back, therefore no God”). But this conversation, while very awkward, lacks all of the Joyce-esque outright disdain for anyone who doesn’t adhere to her worldview of the month. Becky is even at least somewhat aware of the boundary she’s treading on.
I don’t think that’s fair to Becky. Incel logic is “I am not getting laid, I must get laid, and whatever is necessary to make that happen, including the curtailing of human rights, must happen because I am entitled to affection.”
Becky’s just straight-up heartbroken. That’s a pretty standard, understandable pain. If she turned around and started demanding Joyce be into her, then I might see it, but right now her sadness is simply recognition that “thing she wants” is not “thing that will happen.”
She’s allowed to be disappointed and sad that things didn’t go the way she wishes they had.
Also it may kinda sting Becky that she isn’t really seeing anything bad happen a result of Joyce’s big bi kiss. Not only was Joyce’s finally-realized love very much reciprocated, but it turns out she’s got a Queer sister, everything’s coming up gay roses, all while jibe was actively rejecting god. Not that Becky would want terrible things to happen to Joyce, at all! Which likely makes her feel guilty for feeling jealous, along with the shame spiral of Joyce rejecting her because Becky is fundamentally bad and everyone will leave her. Anyway, Joyce’s happy coming out story throws into sharp relief that Becky’s previous life was absolutely torched and her family of origin are all dead. So there’s that.
Oh there’s absolutely all that to contend with, no question. I just found the comparison of Becky’s heartbreak being compared to an “incel” to be like, the oddest take I’ve ever heard.
Okay I’m kinda curious how many Asma strips were inserted into the buffer now because she’s gotten more than a lot of ancillary characters have gotten in like a decade.
I kinda don’t get it. It sounded like she has become the official Muslim woman representation as a correction for the protest fiasco. Fair enough, but why are people so exited about her? She has so far been socially withdrawing and a little passive agressive with her sarcasm. That’s it. What’s the draw?
1) passive-aggressive sarcasm
2) has access to bolt cutters and knows how to use them
3) has seen enough of the main characters from the front desk that she can interact with them in interesting ways, and just little enough that she can interact with them in funny ways.
“why are people so exited about her? She has so far been socially withdrawing and a little passive agressive with her sarcasm. That’s it. What’s the draw?”
My personal interest in her comes from:
– She’s socially withdrawn! I actually really like that in a character because it promises an arc where they either learn to connect and find friends or where their trait of being withdrawn becomes important to the story and characters around them. It’s a trope I really vibe with.
– She’s sarcastic (I disagree that she’s passive-aggressive). There’s something awesome about a woman with a big shiny spine and the willingness to tell people who aren’t treating her right that it annoys her. It tells me that she’s a protective person, at the moment that’s just aimed at protecting her peace but it gives her the possibility of really standing for what’s right or what’s good in the future.
– As a non-white person, I dig seeing non-white characters. It delights me that we get to see more of her, and I’m OBSESSED with the fact that she’s very clearly some flavor of queer. Representation genuinely matters.
– She’s snarky but she’s lonely and reaching out for connection (bowling, talking to Alice, etc) and I’m here cheering her on. I hope she finds it!
Basically all of this. And it’s so weird because “snarky and slightly misanthropic” is extremely popular with everyone up until they’re not white cis men. Then suddenly we have to justify why we like such unlikable characters.
(Obviously I’m white but also capable of being excited on other folks’ behalf! And plus I like interesting stories with texture, and more diversity adds both.)
Yeah, I don’t really get it either. So far her appearances feel pretty forced and she just kind of comes across as Sarah redux. I’m hopeful that will change once we get past the retroactively inserted strips.
Asma is being squeezed into a plot that wasn’t meant to hold her. I can be excited about this, or I can be frustrated about it, and since I like all of Willis’s characters, this is an easy choice. Hurray for more Amsa!
She’s been one-note “grumpy front desk girl” long enough. Time for her to step into the limelight. Other characters have had their turn in the past, others’ time is yet to come… now is the hour for Asma. 😁
Becky is taking the fact Joyce had an easy coming out with extreme negativity and it’s not a good look. Basically, lashing out at everyone and God because something GOOD happened to her friend. It’s really not a good look for her and shows she can’t be happy for her friends.
Mind you, I think unlike Joyce, Becky never allowed herself to be mad and being upset as a thing that passes is not in her wiring. Hence why she’s “lost her faith” (I don’t know if this is meant to be permanent or not).
She has made a joke about how much of a lesbian she is as a way of branding herself in a world she feels unmoored in. Not only is it possible that she might be into men one day, Joyce — who she loves more than anything — had her sexuality change too, thus casting even more doubt about things she believed were fundamentally right and wrong. That is going to make her doubt if god really exists.
– It’s actually SUPER reasonable for Becks to find life unfair right now and to be upset about it.
– She isn’t really lashing out about a good thing happening to Joyce so much as being crushingly depressed that a LOT of bad things happened to HER.
– It’s also actually fine to need a beat when something that was incredibly hard for you comes easy to a friend. She can have feelings that aren’t all puppies and rainbows and it’s super normal.
If Becky were like, berating Joyce for having had an easier time, that would suck even if I’d understand the emotional underpinnings, but she is LITERALLY just feeling things right now.
Some real “Selfish: Man Finds Time to Build a Birdhouse While Jonbenet Ramsey’s Killer Still At Large” energy around here sometimes.
And you don’t think the loss of faith is more to do with not being the object of Joyce’s affection, not even being seen as an option for the one she loved for years? Also that the one who did make Joyce realize she was gay was the same person Becky felt was threat to her friendship with Joyce, further making Becky feel unworthy?
I mean, it could be either one, or even both, but we’ve only seen her comment about how Joyce was indeed gay, just not gay for her, and nothing (as far as I recall) about how Joyce is having an easier time.
Also, any comparison about Joyce having it easier than Becky only really applies to Hank not trying to Kidnap Joyce to pray the gay away.
While it’s extremely doubtful that Dorothy’s parents would have a problem, they don’t seem to know, yet, and so she can’t compare it to how her roommate and her roommate’s parents reacted; there are several moving parts that keep it from being a 1 to 1 comparison.
Also, there’s still Joyce’s mom who could go full Toe-Dad, as there’s no indication that she (is it Carol?) knows; it’s only been like 36 hours.
Becky’s main story arc at the moment is specifically about seeing her best friend, to whom she was attracted for a long time, having realized she can be attracted to women not be attracted to Becky herself.
Most of Becky’s life situation as shown in DoA has been the kind of events that specifically make a person feel inferior/lesser (her father’s talking points and their hometown church’s behaviors are examples). The fact Joyce can be attracted to women but isn’t attracted to Becky is exacerbating/reinforcing her existing feelings of inferiority. Her recent fight with Dina grows from this, in part because from the outside it looks like something else far more hurtful and neither of them has the base to understand the difference. Her now questioning her faith also seems like something that grows out of this.
Becky’s ideas are even fleshed out enough to properly fill her word balloon, but who among us hasn’t used a sneaky spacebar in a time of spiritual need?
Also, I do not want to imagine the bombastic side eye Asma would throw Becky’s way if Becky gave her a surface elevator-ride-length rundown of what has shaken her belief in God, because I’m not sure Becky has time to work down to the actual messy foundation and Asma doesn’t seem like she’d have patience for the “my friend who rejected me realized she was bi after all and it’s nuked my relationship” if that’s all Becky can get out.
I hope Becky’s crisis of faith is not permanent. Her maintaining her faith while Joyce discarding it was one of her most interesting features as a character contrast.
Also, I know it’s not likely… but Becky x Asma shippers? Anyone else now?
yeah, the theology and religious studies dork in me would be giddy with excitement to watch people of two different faiths compare and contrast. but i am not sure how much of an audience there would be for that besides me and maybe two oyher people, lol. 😅
I would have… concerns about this proposed arc, mostly because I’m not sure Willis is, at this point, up to as sincere and nuanced examination of Islam as he’s given to Christianity in its various flavors. The dual traps of ignorant critique and the beyond critique overcorrection are pretty hard to navigate if you’re not at least involved in the group in question.
I mean, I hope not, because I think they had a really cute dynamic together… but I can understand if that is Dinah’s response. Just because Becky only said these words in a moment of profound emotional stress (and regretted them immediately) does not take away how hurtful they were.
I’m pretty sure it’s a phase, just judging from a meta standpoint. 1. It’d be redundant after Joyce’s arc, 2. It contrasts to Joyce’s arc pretty hard in that we saw a real ongoing crisis of faith that was built up from a number of factors. It wasn’t (just) a hurt rejection, it was a full blown realization that not only can she not actually believe this stuff, she never really did. She just needed the strict rules. Becky’s faith also contrasted pretty hard against Joyce’s, she never cared about (most of) the rules, in fact you could say Becky had actual faith where Joyce had instructions. We’ve never seen Becky question her faith before, it was always flexible enough to accommodate new information. Idk if your core beliefs can meaningfully change that quickly, particularly after everything she’s been through so far. This is just pain, self harm possibly. So far she’s pushed away her two main sources of comfort (her wonderful girlfriend and the thought of a loving God).
My crackpot theory, I think this is more than just heartbreak. I think she’s shame spiraling. Learning about DoJo broke her heart and violently ripped those insecurities about being unlovable back to the surface. I think she felt guilty about being so heartbroken over it when she has Dina, so she pushed her away because she doesn’t think she deserves her. I think the deal with her faith is similar. In Becky’s mind, she is unlovable and terrible and evil for feeling this way in the first place when she has Dina and what is wrong with her, this is what’s wrong with her, shes unlovable because she doesn’t deserve it, she doesn’t deserve Dina or her friends or the warmth of a loving God. I think she still believes in God, she’s just pushing him away the way she is with Dina.
I feel like befriending Asma could be a very good thing for Becky if that’s where this is going. She seems like a level-headed influence that may be able to help her through what she’s going through. And Becky could probably give her some fun and socialization. Curious to see if this goes anywhere.
Tbh Becky could use a mature friend with her shit together. Actually together, not…that performance of having your shit together while actually being a fucking mess dotty had going on
As someone who hasn’t been religious in decades I find it hard to understand people who suddenly stop believing. I guess I just assume that if you’re willing to overlook all the bad things happening to good people, overlooking your own hardship, and all the other evidence the idea of any one moment being what disenfranchises you feels odd.
In the same way where I don’t recall any one event that made me stop believing in Santa.
as someone who grew up in a fundie household, i also dont remember any one given event that shook me so hard i Stopped Believing. It was the patient love of “non believers” who led me there over many years of friendship. If anything, big awful things that make you spiral make you cling to your faith harder? it’s been a bit weird for me, too
But i suppose there’s also sorts of different types in this world
“If anything, big awful things that make you spiral make you cling to your faith harder?”
Up until now, that’s been Becky’s experience in a nutshell. But, Joyce actually being into girls, from Becky’s wounded perspective, changes the situation from “Joyce and I never could have been together, so it’s cool” to “Joyce has been actively rejecting me as long as I’ve known her,” and Joyce is the absolute last person from the now-extinct part of her life where she felt happy and connected to a family.
An unbreakable connection to a group who can never reject her, has always been the motivation for Becky to stay connected to God; now, her Mom is dead, her Dad is dead, her original congregation has disowned her, and she just found out that the last person she desperately needed to never abandon or reject her, just abandoned and rejected her – and, for the exact woman that her internal gaydar has been screaming was a threat to her connection to Joyce, ever since she met her.
Joyce lost her faith when she did, because the crux of her faith was that God is a real, objective force that has real power over the universe, to whom she must owe allegiance; so, all it took was for her to genuinely learn and experience the world outside of her bubble, and the sense of goodness she learned in service of God, is the very thing that caused her to renounce him.
Becky lost her faith when she did, because she didn’t care about the reality of God, but instead cared about the bond of community God inspired. From her perspective, as long as her connection to Joyce stayed sacrosanct, then God was sacrosanct. Since she’s convinced herself she has fully lost Joyce, and also convinced herself she’s lost Dina in the process of grieving that, she is now bereft of every tangible interpersonal connection around her, in which her continued faith was based.
Becky lost her faith when she did, because she didn’t care about the reality of God, but instead cared about the bond of community God inspired.
I’m having a hard time squaring this with Becky’s longstanding willingness to go with whatever church she preferred aesthetically because she KNEW God loved her the way she was even if any given church was not particularly supportive of LGBT folks.
And it doesn’t seem to connect to Joyce, either, at least since Joyce’s conversion to atheism. Can you elaborate more on this idea that Becky’s community with two atheists was somehow inspired by God in a load-bearing way?
So here’s my slowly baking take on where Becky’s head might be right now:
It’s not just the romantic rejection. Of course it isn’t. But Becky WAS raised in a similar way to Joyce, and one of the things they’ve always agreed strongly on is how they feel about True Love.
And I just think, after Becky lost her mother, got kicked out of Anderson, and knew she was about to lose her father in one way or another — part of her brain thought, this could just be what my love story looks like. All of that pain and loss could just be the path I had to take to find my one true love.
Initially, she hoped that would be Joyce. Definitely Becky’s first-ever crush, and certainly her longest crush. She hoped college had been just as eye-opening for Joyce as it had been for her (and in some ways, she was right). It would have been a very romantic story: mutual pining for like a decade that neither of them knew was pining until they were forcibly separated by being sent to different schools!
And Joyce’s family was just as religious as Becky’s family. Surely if Joyce returned her feelings, Joyce was ALSO about to be disowned.
They would both have lost everything but each other.
It would have been so romantic.
Not healthy. Not, ultimately, very happy! But so romantic.
It’s not what ultimately happened, of course, and Becky wound up with MORE than she would have gotten, if she and Joyce had been forced to, like, flee Indiana together and start a new life somewhere else. Becky wound up with not JUST a loving girlfriend but also a loving platonic best friend — and other friends! Supportive adults! Surrogate family members…!
But.
I do think having to hear Joyce basically claim a very similar love story to what Becky once hoped for… was still a bit of a kick in the teeth.
(I really do wonder if Becky would be taking all of this better if Joyce HADN’T basically confirmed all of Becky’s old fears in one fell swoop: not all of Becky’s jealousy here has been romantic, after all, but all the pieces come together in an unfortunate way and make it look like Joyce took one look at Dorothy and felt everything Becky had felt for Joyce for years.
Not to mention how much Joyce has changed over the last few months — it must feel like she and Dorothy have more in common now, after only a few months, than Becky and Joyce had after knowing each other for like a decade.)
But if it were just that, I don’t think Becky would be questioning her faith right now.
It’d suck! But lots of things in her life have sucked. And I don’t think she’s been Ruth this whole time — I don’t think she would’ve actually dumped Dina in a heartbeat if Joyce had suddenly expressed interest!
But it’s more to do with how Becky kept framing things that have happened to her as The Way It Had to Be. God gives his hardest trials to his strongest soldiers, they say.
Like, Becky lost her mom. She got kicked out of school. She got disowned by her dad. She HOPED, briefly, that that had brought her to Joyce in exactly the right way, so that the two of them could discover they were both in love with each other.
That didn’t happen, but Becky DID very quickly meet Dina.
And in a lot of ways, Dina has been The Perfect Partner for Becky — not only someone with parents so accepting that they immediately sent Dina money to take Becky out on a nice date, but someone who’s been immensely compatible with Becky sexually.
Like, yeah, there was a bit of a stumbling block (to put it mildly) for Becky over Dina’s demisexuality, but at the same time, it helped a lot that Dina was so comfortable and happy waiting for Becky to be ready to have sex in the first place. And they’ve had mostly a very good time exploring their sexualities together in the time since that discovery.
So: yeah, I can see Becky feeling like Dina was proof of a loving God.
And sure, her dad literally came after her with a shotgun, and then later kidnapped her — but like Becky said, God sent a literal superhero to save her the first time, and the friends she’d made in since then banded together to help save each other the second time.
Then there’s the scholarship she has, thanks to meeting Robin, which is enabling her education…
Yeah. It’s pretty easy to square a LOT of this with a loving God who, ultimately, hasn’t given Becky more than she can handle.
…But.
Now she has a very… direct comparison for all of that in Joyce. And it must surely suck.
Joyce getting what seems to be the exact type of fairy tale love-at-first-sight romance with Dorothy. Joyce’s dad not, actually, disowning her. Joyce’s coolest sibling turning out to be trans and SUPER not disowning her.
Joyce didn’t have to contend with her mom dying like that. Joyce didn’t have to contend with her dad turning violent and hateful. Joyce doesn’t have to worry about paying for her own education, either — and she’s not locked into any particular degree, either, unlike Becky.
And, as far as Becky can tell, because Joyce processed all of her sexual shame with OTHER people… Joyce hasn’t had to struggle with any of that. Joyce’s first time with Dorothy probably didn’t involve any shame-fueled weeping!
And Joyce DEFINITELY isn’t currently struggling with carrying a torch for someone she can’t have. Joyce’s relationship with Dorothy is probably perfect [citation kinda needed, but as far as Becky knows]!
I was definitely thinking it would be MORE about sexual fluidity for Becky, because we know she’s been anxious about that for a while, but the way Joyce told the story TO Becky, I’d honestly be surprised if Becky even knows Joyce is bi instead of thinking Joyce just, you know, finally overcome coercive heteronormativity and embraced being a lesbian. As fully valid as it is for Joyce to call herself gay, it doesn’t help that that keeps being the word she uses.
I wonder if we’ll see a second, different reaction from Becky once she knows everything.
But as things stand right now? It really must kind of seem to Becky like Joyce just got everything Becky’s always wanted — a “love at first sight” story of overcoming societal prejudice and internalized homophobia to realize you were “always” in love with your best friend… AND without having lost any of the things Becky’s lost along the way.
Joyce doesn’t even believe in God anymore. So why does it seem like God likes her so much better?
A little while back a commenter eloquently listed out some of the emotional reactions of survivors of suicide; (very short version) “They left me”, “I was bad and made them want to leave me”, “I was bad and killed them”. There was another level left out that is particular to parental suicides – “My father killed my mother”.
It’s not a very big flex to see that Becky transferred a lot of her emotional stability to Joyce after her mother’s death. When Ross was going to put her in ‘lock & key reprograming’ Becky ran home – to Joyce. The bigger flex was after her father died. Becky redefined Dorothy from competitor as best friend to ‘nemesis’, a rule maker/follower that must be defied at every turn. She promoted Dorothy to father. She recreated the family she lost.
Straight Joyce meant this was semi stable structure aside from the occasional bouts of neurotic jealousy. Gay Joyce with Dorothy triggers a nuclear reaction.
“I’ve lost her (they left me) again.”
“He took her from me (killed her) again.”
“God let her die again.”
Heh. I’m almost the… not the inverse, maybe the contrapositive? of your background. I was raised very liberal Episcopalian, with deeply loving and supportive congregation, both racially diverse and socially progressive. It was getting out into the larger world, and coming into contact with conservative Christians, along with a string of other events, that caused me first to doubt, then abandon, faith-based thinking. By the time I’d encountered Movement Atheism, I was already done with all but the vestiges of my former faith.
I agree with Tan, like last time this subject came up I brought up how things went for me and it was honestly just a lot of things adding up over time. It may only look sudden because we’re viewing it from the perspective of an outsider rather than that person’s head. For a lot of religious people (especially Protestants and Catholics) suffering is just part of life. Bad shit happens to you, bad shit happens to others, it’s all (insert specific religious reason here such as original sin), what matters is that upon death that suffering is gonna balance out with lots of happy shit in heaven. The breaking of the camel’s back comes when people just can’t take it anymore. When even the promise of eternal sunshine and happiness upon death just doesn’t make the current suffering feel worth it. When they cry and beg and pray for God to help and seemingly go unanswered.
My thought exactly. That’s when I stopped believing. I had reasons to before then, but they all had to accumulate until the proverbial straw tipped me over.
Alice / Daisy. I thought it’d be really funny if Jen accidentally hooked the wrong ex up with her boss. Time for it has passed, but it would have ruled.
This is actually my preferred ship for Dorothy. I can’t think of a single more entertaining partner for her (for my personal taste). It would be a nightmare, they would be awful together, and I would have so much fun reading it.
Nope. It’s Raidah and David. She’s the only one outside his parent’s that uses his actual name. That’s what makes this crack ship so high brow, for the discriminating shipper!
Fuck I’ve thought about this before but I can’t remember
I’ve been sold on Walky x Raidah. I’ve also been riding for Walky x Joe since this whole thing started. Booster x literally anyone idc who. Fuck it i want them to become DoJo’s third bc what better way to get first rate tea?
Oh man I feel like delving into religion with these two cracks open the Pandora box of white Christianity vs Islam and all the cultural/societal weight put on both and that a tight rope to walk.
Like “religion is bad and god is dumb” coming FROM a LGBTQ character pushing against their Christian upbringing is a very progressive viewpoint.
“Religion is a bad and god is dumb” directed AT a visibly devout Muslim character is decidedly less progressive and threading that needle in is going to be a difficult trick to pull off
That’s a bold strategy Opinion., lets see if it pays off for Willis.
Real talk the biggest difference with Joyce and Becky atm is probably because Becky held onto her religion as a comfort, in spite of everything with her dad. Joyce dropped it mostly due to facing realities she didn’t feel comfortable just staying Christian anymore.
Islam and religion in general are topics that we’re really gonna have to see if Willis can even do with grace, given that Asma is still a new character relatively, and the other prominent Islamic woman is Raidah. Two women who couldn’t be anymore different in terms of their current appearances and behavior with the cast and plot in general lol
Dumbing of Age has been a comic about freshman relationship drama, growing up and waking up from unquestioning religous upbringing, and the dangers of fundamentalist Christianity. A serious take on what it means to be a young, brown, Muslim woman in Indiana seems rather outside of those parameters.
This is honestly why I’m not so far keen on Asma as a viewpoint character. Nothing against her as such, but it’s hard to see her getting up to serious hijinks (let alone featuring in a slipshine!) without things exploding into an epic drama storm.
Its something I hope Willis takes some outside input for, but I won’t hold my breath on that. Benefit of the doubt, so far Asma hasn’t said or done anything that completely makes me think Wiliis only put her forward to have a Muslim woman for the quota.
This is my major concern with Asma as a character, in no small part because it can go wrong in either direction. If he’s not stumbling into offensive stereotypes, it might only be because he’s not giving her any flaws at all, esp. w/regard to her faith.
that weird dichotomy of “is it more progressive to have only the non Muslim women sex, or is it bigoted to not have them engage in the sex?”. People love their Slipshine, but I dunno how much Willis wants to kick the hornets nest with having Asma be anywhere near that lol
For some that is a very good thing. I can’t imagine anyone, regardless their orientation, wanting to see anything from Carol, Toedad, Blaine, or like… Mary.
For the record, I didn’t mean I’d be looking for Asma featured in a Slipshine. I’m just saying that youthful sexy hijinks are very much a part of the comic.
One way to thread it might be to not have anyone in the scene saying “religion is bad and god is dumb” at all, and instead have an LGBTQ character who believed God accepted her as such until two days ago tell a Muslim character how much she envies that she still has her faith.
I find this idea that progressiveism is somthing that even applies in the situation to be incomprehensible. Either god exists or it does not. Either Christianity is true, or Islam is true, or neither is true. None of this has anything to do with progressiveness or the lack thereof. They’re facts about the nature of the universe.
In a sense, that’s true and it’s an argument lots of prominent atheists have used, but the reality is we live in a very Christian society with a lot of prejudice against Muslims, so when we attack Islam, even from an atheist perspective, we have the societal weight behind us. That’s very different from when atheists in the West target Christianity.
This would of course be largely reversed for atheists in Muslim countries.
“Religion is dumb and bad” is actually not the viewpoint Dumbing of Age has ever put forth, even once, in its entire run, so. I’m not sure why Willis would start now.
Like, people keep expecting it to be the thesis statement of this comic, but what it’s actually grifty cults and rigid fundamentalism that Willis has consistently presented as bad.
I know that for a certain stripe of atheists, that describes “all religions, actually”, but Willis has always taken pains to portray even Christians as individuals rather than a monolith. Lucy and Jennifer and Mary and Joyce would all have self-described as Christian at the beginning of this comic, but they all had different ways of approaching Christianity, and Willis has been pretty clear, honestly, that they’re not all equally bad or wrong.
I’d hedge that slightly. I agree that the thesis, “Religions are all equally bad” is nowhere in the text of this comic. I disagree with the claim that “Religions are all equally wrong” isn’t in there. One could argue that even showing both Becky (pre-crashout) and Asma in the same comic in generally positive fashions would be a pretty solid rejection of both their faiths, in that in order for either of them to be actually correct would necessitate the other being wrong.
While Willis correctly reserves his ire for zealots and hypocrites, his worldbuilding is very distinctly atheist in nature. Compare this with the It’s Walky/FANS! crossover back in the day, where explicitly Christian faith was demonstrably ‘correct’, even without a personal appearance by JC.
That’s not what I meant by “wrong”. I don’t care if a given religion is right or wrong about cosmology generally, I care about how its followers treat other human beings.
But like. Yeah, DoA has not commented on whether or not “all religions are wrong” in the sense of them being incorrect about cosmology. I don’t think Willis cares about that any more than I do.
A central theme of the comic has been waking up from magical thinking. Considering the background and personal story of the author, I’m surprised by how many seem to read this strip as a somehow “pro religion” story.
If anything, the clear headed secular materialism of Dina feels as close to the author’s core world view as we’ve seen.
It’s not “pro-religion”, either, and I didn’t say it was…?
It’s just not ANTI-religion.
Joyce had, like, a whole character arc about learning to stop being rude and mean about other people’s religious beliefs and was explicitly called out for thinking being an atheist made her smarter than other people.
Like. The central theme is JOYCE waking up and leaving HER faith, and that part is fairly autobiographical.
But you’ll notice Dina has never been pitted against Lucy or Jacob or Agatha or Sierra or Asma. You’ll notice that her arguments even with Joyce have been staunchly based in the specific falsifiable lies Joyce and Becky were indoctrinated with re: evolution and fossils. You’ll notice that she and Becky were perfectly content agreeing to disagree about whether or not there’s an afterlife…
Like I think it’s just more accurate to describe DoA as pro-science as well as being staunchly against anti-science, but plenty of religious people are just quietly religious while still being quite pro-science and pro-other-people’s-religious-freedom-and-civil-rights, and DoA has never taken issue with them. That’s all.
This is probably not an accurate observation but seeing Becky stand next to Asma makes me think most of the cast is the exact same height. It’s like two tiers. Tall ladies like Carla, Sarah, Ruth, Rachel, Alice, and then everyone else is like exactly 5’4.
guess it’s good she’ll have more of a role(tho i guess the cast list spoils mikes death tho idk if a new reader not familiar with shortpacked/other works would be that attached to him)
i mean even if asma also randomly stopped believing i imagine a handful of ppl like her would still either wear her hijab outta habit /some still wearing it for modesty/personal reasons w/o it being connected to religion
Part of it depends on the reason for abandoning Islam. A slow erosion of faith would likely be matched by an equally drawn-out abandonment of faith-based practices; she might use her prayer schedule as a time for meditation, and could easily start wearing other, more varied headcoverings and just not freaking out when she realizes she forgets one day. OTOH, a sharp and purposeful decision to quit her faith would likely result in an equally dramatic ditching of not only the hijab, but something akin to going out in an outfit meant to draw the eye (not necessarily something scandalous, just something not designed with ‘modesty’ in mind–bright colors and form-flattering, even if only a little more skin is exposed).
That Becky is presenting like this in front of someone doesn’t necessarily tell us much about what’s going on in her head, because she’s good at masking, but it still feels positive that she took the step of leaving her room.
I’m not sure there are enough dead mothers in DoA for a proper NGE crossover. There’s only Becky and Ruth, as far as I recall. Or have I missed someone?
(NGE hidden lore or fanon says that Evas only work for you if your mother’s soul was bound into it. I.e. an AT field is a mother’s love.)
yeah, Becky ain’t in a good place right now. though I will say even during her moment of crisis, she’s doing damn well for an ex-fundie. you would not believe some of the shit they say about people of other faiths (then again, maybe you would.) That Becky grew up hearing that stuff and resisted internalizing it to the point she can just casually chat with Asma is impressive in itself. That may not seem like much, but you’d be surprised how low the bar is with these things.
Becky’s a good kid. I hope things get better for her soon, she deserves it.
Becky’s not normal around anyone rn, she’d probably say the same shit if she were in the elevator with Agatha or Lucy or Jake. Honestly maybe a talk with Lucy or Jake would do her some good. She got on well with him in the seduction arc and she and Lucy were church buds. But they’re also not fundies, esp Jake who seems to be more theologically academic, philosophical about his religion. I wish we saw more if a friendship with Becky and those two on screen. Then again, maybe Lucy’s similarities to Joyce would just hurt rn
very much this. becky’s normal social network is not available right now. she was roommates with dorothy, friends with joyce, and dinah’s gf… all the people she would normally go to with this stuff are part of the situation she’s upset about. double agree that lucy would be good to talk to. i think becky is chatting up complete strangers because she feels like she has no one to turn to or confide in left. her suddenly oversharing with someone she only waves at in the hallway is a pretty natural reaction.
Lucy’s friendship with Becky was for a long time my favorite little detail about either of them.
(Which isn’t to say I didn’t like the characters, I just really liked how they bounced off each other religiously, even when the topic of conversation was “how do I get Joyce to come back to church with me”, which isn’t a very endearing thing for people to try to do, heh.)
I mean, whether it is endearing or rude definitely depends on the person and the delivery, as well as how often it’s done. If someone is like “Hey, this thing is important to me and has been a positive force in my life, and the door’s always open if you want to give it a try” that’s a country mile from “Look, if you don’t show up, my Sky Daddy will set you on fire forever for being such a monstrous piece of evil filth.”
The other thing is how often they’ve asked you. If they offer once, you decline, and they respect your boundaries and don’t ask again? No harm, no foul. But if they’re badgering you ever week (or God forbid, every day) then it gets old real quick.
My sophomore religion teacher (Catholic high school) said that “God is a gentleman, He forces himself on no one.”* So if your tactics to get people to come to church with you involve shame, coercion, deception, bullying, intimidation, or abuse, safe to say God probably has nothing to do with your motives, and you’re really doing it to satisfy your own ego and/or build up some kind of fundie ‘street cred.’
Though, it bears mentioning the terrifying existential terror that the fundies will put into their flock, especially the kids, and that goes triple for kids in the congregation who go to a non-fundie school or university. From 6th grade to freshman year of high school I got hit with the following spiel at least once a week, if not more: “If you have any friends that aren’t Christian (read: go to our specific individual church) then you have to witness to them 24/7, because God put you in their life to save them, so if you’re too chicken or too worried about decorum or offending people, your non-saved friends will be tortured forever and it will be all your fault!!!”
*And while I get what he meant by this sentiment, the phrasing still throws me off a bit. Like, I feel like respecting consent is the baseline, not some mark of uncommon virtue.
I think that Lucy and Becky trying to come up with ways of un-atheist-ing Joyce was an unlikable thing for them to do, but I still liked the way they bounced off each other while they were talking. That’s all I meant.
I think trying to evangelize anyone, but especially someone you think is vulnerable and needs help, sucks! I think at the very least it’s rude, and it slides very easily into actually predatory. And also that it’s not just the ones receiving the hypothetical evangelizing who are being preyed upon: it’s well-documented at this point that, like, encouraging the members of your congregation to proselytize, especially door-to-door, is itself preying on THEM. It sets them up to face a lot of hostility, it sets them up to lose friends and neighbors, and it sets them up to be more dependent on their church for a sense of not just religious identity but friendship and family.
So yeah they were actively trying to do something crappy, but I still liked their chemistry together. If that makes sense.
(The stance then being that in a world without deities, those with a serious misunderstanding of the reality they’re living in are luckier than those without. I can see why to a religious person this could be found condescending, like a parent talking to another parent about {a child who’s learnt zebras and unicorns are both real animals you might see in zoos} and saying how nice and precious it is to have dreams, “dreams” here being “falsehoods that the person in question thinks are everyday normal things and doesn’t know are special in the eyes of others”.)
It could, and Asma might well be reading it that way, but I don’t think it’s all intended that way, given that Becky’s faith just collapsed yesterday.
She’s not thinking of it in those terms at all.
As someone who’s an atheist and has been for a long time, I’m always a bit glad when someone stops believing in their religion. But I’m kinda surprised that after all the bad stuff Becky’s been through, it’s Joyce and Dorothy getting together that finally caused her to lose her faith.
Other (smarter) people have pointed out that fundies often view atheism as being angry at and revolting against God. And though Becky isn’t a fundamentalist anymore, she’s in a vulnerable enough state that she probably lapses into that mindset (similar to how Joyce, nervous for her first time, started yelling about angry angels). So I don’t think Becky actually stopped believing in God, she’s just performatively yelling Nietzsche because that’s an acceptable outlet for the pain she’s feeling.
Can confirm. I have done this myself once or twice, in extreme situations where emotions are running particularly high… or occasionally as a sassy joke, if I’m with a social circle that finds that kinda comment funny.
I don’t think it’s that weird. I assume that most Christians are glad when someone converts to Christianity, and that most Muslims are glad when someone converts to Islam, and so on with other religions. Likewise I’m a little glad when someone abandons religion.
Joyce hooking up with Dorothy is seriously going to be the catalyst that makes Becky lose her faith? That’s such a pathetic and selfish reason. It makes a mockery of her character that she made a point out of holding onto it after all the other much nastier things she’s had to deal with, but this is a bridge too far.
There’s been discussions about Becky’s loss of faith. Her first crush hooking up with another girl did throw her off kilter, but many have theorized that it’s more that the universe seemed to REWARD Joyce for her sexuality where it SEVERELY punished Becky for it. Ross kidnapped Becky with a shotgun in an effort to “correct” her, whereas Hank just shrugged his shoulders at the revelation that Joyce was gay and said “at least you’re not a communist.” Joyce then flaunted the parental-approved relationship by putting the front page picture of her kissing Dotty on the doorknob. Becky has pretty much figured that it’s better to not believe in God at all and have this be all random chance than believe in a God that CLEARLY favors Joyce, who renounced her faith months ago, to Becky the firm believer.
Narratively I hope Becky finds her way back to good just to keep the contrast with Joyce
There’s an interesting difference with Becky experiencing a loss of faith but I was interested in watching an ex fundie learn to not be forceful with her religion
i would love this conversation. not because i want becky to get insulted, but rather it would be a cool, and unexpected, way for becky to find her way back to her faith. bonding with someone else who juggles their queerness with a progressive take on their religion.
The sophomores in the strip are pretty cynical. Ruth. Raidah. Sarah. Even Tony is very focused in ways we don’t see among the freshmen. The first years aren’t very good at adulting yet. But the sophomores seem like they’re angry beyond their years.
Flashback to the idiotic movie “Signs” where Mel Gibson stops believing in God because something bad happened, then starts believing in God again because something good happened.
Oh, it is. It glosses over the galaxy’s dumbest aliens. They melt like the Wicked Witch of the West when water gets on them, then land on a planet that is mostly covered by the stuff. They couldn’t master a kitchen door lock. It’s a wonder they landed in one piece.
I have lots of dumb movies I enjoyed, so if you liked this one, make popcorn!
This’ll be good.
Becky: blah blah blah lesbian blah blah blah Joyce blah blah blah kissing.
Asma: Your entire theology was “I’m awesome and that means God is awesome.” Thus, when you stopped feeling awesome, you stopped “believing” in God, if something so egocentric can be called “belief” at all
I should clarify that I’m experiencing “Asma’s” reductiveness in that post in character a bit — that’s not an accurate description of Becky’s faith, certainly, but she often is loudly superficial/enthusiastic in places where it’s likely Asma has heard her going on.
It’s always stuck out to me how very brittle fundamentalist Christianity is. It’s why they cordon themselves off in a cultural bubble. Any interaction with the broader world will very quickly disabuse them off all the notions they were raised in. Someone like Asma, raised in a society where her religious beliefs are a small minority, would have had to confront such things constantly. Becky and Joyce (and I’m guessing Willis) are experiencing what a lot of people raised in that bubble experience: epistemic collapse on meeting the wider world. If you look at the background of “Nones” in the context of religious identification, fundamentalist Christians who’ve experienced epistemic collapse are wildly over-represented. Because their faith is almost uniquely vulnerable to it.
While Asma’s faith can almost certainly withstand a thirty second elevator ride, Becky’s might not.
Regardless of her father and the church she was expected to attend, Becky has never been a fundamentalist. Faith has always been much more personal to her, and we’re strongly led to believe it was that way for her mother too.
I agree, though I’ll also point out that the Muslim communities I’ve been adjacent to have been extremely insular and protective from western influence. Many teen hijabis I’ve met seem to don the hijab principally to remain close to their community more than devout faith, as integration within western communities proves extremely challenging even if you go to a public school and sound like an average person in your town.
As a secular expat, I’m super envious of Muslim expat friends, like they just need to link into the local diaspora and they’re set with their own support network – never seen atheists adequately organise that way, much less expat atheists. But that’s what religion does, it facilitates community because people in isolation struggle to build community without a foundational common cause. By offering community, it’s much easier to get converts, and on a basic level in each person’s mind, it is expected that you are there for those within your religious community. The fears of the unknown and outgroups are strong, and this is triply the case for first and second-generation Arab Muslim expats, who really have odds stacked against them when it comes to integrating somewhere like the midwestern US.
Around 9/11, I lived in a region of the Midwest where Muslims needed to be in isolated communities because hostilities were just so high towards any brown person that it was a threat to their lives to be in rural majority-white regions. I don’t honestly think that’s disappeared, in many regions it may even be worse. All that said, I think Asma is brave as hell attending a state school in the Midwest.
Always kind of amused at explorations of faith and atheism in fiction where, in a metatextual context, there actually *is* a creator deciding their actions and fates.
(To be clear I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done and can’t be great – just that it’s funny when you think of them having this crisis, and this discussion, due to the Hand of Willis)
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1. yay Asma strip!! ^^
2. oooooh here it goooooooooooooes :(
goes down doobee doobee doobee down da-down
PRESTIDIGITARIUM!
45 seconds is pushing it though
oh, please let the elevator get stuck!
Rei/Asuka scene but it’s Asma and Becky
seconding this!
Becky learning from Joyces cringe athiest phase I see
Honestly, I’m just happy to see Becky alive.
Same.
+1
I triple that
I’d say she learned from NCIS but she left the elevator lights on.
bless you for this reference.
Oh, she’s nowhere near as bad as Joyce was. Becky’s only really cringe element is her ‘reason’ for her atheism, which is, to be blunt, incel logic (“My crush doesn’t love me back, therefore no God”). But this conversation, while very awkward, lacks all of the Joyce-esque outright disdain for anyone who doesn’t adhere to her worldview of the month. Becky is even at least somewhat aware of the boundary she’s treading on.
I don’t think that’s fair to Becky. Incel logic is “I am not getting laid, I must get laid, and whatever is necessary to make that happen, including the curtailing of human rights, must happen because I am entitled to affection.”
Becky’s just straight-up heartbroken. That’s a pretty standard, understandable pain. If she turned around and started demanding Joyce be into her, then I might see it, but right now her sadness is simply recognition that “thing she wants” is not “thing that will happen.”
She’s allowed to be disappointed and sad that things didn’t go the way she wishes they had.
Also it may kinda sting Becky that she isn’t really seeing anything bad happen a result of Joyce’s big bi kiss. Not only was Joyce’s finally-realized love very much reciprocated, but it turns out she’s got a Queer sister, everything’s coming up gay roses, all while jibe was actively rejecting god. Not that Becky would want terrible things to happen to Joyce, at all! Which likely makes her feel guilty for feeling jealous, along with the shame spiral of Joyce rejecting her because Becky is fundamentally bad and everyone will leave her. Anyway, Joyce’s happy coming out story throws into sharp relief that Becky’s previous life was absolutely torched and her family of origin are all dead. So there’s that.
Oh there’s absolutely all that to contend with, no question. I just found the comparison of Becky’s heartbreak being compared to an “incel” to be like, the oddest take I’ve ever heard.
We can probably get those thoughts up to 51% formed in those 30 seconds.
That seems unduly optimistic.
…maybe fifty point one percent?
(This was meant to be a reply to Clif, above)
Don’t worry Becky, I’m sure before the end of the day some of those half formed thoughts’ll be fully formed thoughts!
Asmaaaaaa
Would reverse-evangelizing be rationalizing?
No, I think rationalizing gets called apologetics.
The truth is complicated.
And you can never be completely sure it’s not just another sometimes useful approximation of an even more complicated truth.
Probably philosophy with a focus on critical thinking, philosophical razors, and maybe an evaluation of the principle of “first mover”.
But really, just critical thinking will help get a person going.
…Becky’s eager-to-talk face in the last panel
Ah, Becky. Poor girl.
Happy to see more Asma though!
Okay I’m kinda curious how many Asma strips were inserted into the buffer now because she’s gotten more than a lot of ancillary characters have gotten in like a decade.
I think Asma is now part of the full cast.
Here’s hoping!!
Not enough– MOAR ASMA!!!
Forget Joyce. Asma main character NOW.
Whenever Asma’s not on screen the characters should be asking “where’s Asma”
I just saw her leave with Tino.
I kinda don’t get it. It sounded like she has become the official Muslim woman representation as a correction for the protest fiasco. Fair enough, but why are people so exited about her? She has so far been socially withdrawing and a little passive agressive with her sarcasm. That’s it. What’s the draw?
The draw is a combination of people going Palestine Good, and a few other things sprinkled in. There’s nothing remarkable about her specifically.
I’ve got all the sympathy for palestinians, but I don’t see how it makes her an interesting character. I hope you’re cynicism is unwarranted.
lmao I love when people say shit like this just because they disagree with an opinion.
I love Asma as a character for a lot of reasons (I’ll respond to Adept with them) and literally not one of them shakes down to Palestine Good.
I find it weird how people can gush over other side characters but as soon as its someone like Asma you have to be questioned about it. How very odd….
don’t check the reddit for DoA, they are pretty much in their: “Asma is a token Muslim that Willis doesn’t know what to do with” echo chamber lol
Yep.
That’s all I’m saying, just yep.
Thanks for responding Nymph. I’d love to hear what about her speaks to you. So far we’ve seen very little about her as a person.
The draws:
1) passive-aggressive sarcasm
2) has access to bolt cutters and knows how to use them
3) has seen enough of the main characters from the front desk that she can interact with them in interesting ways, and just little enough that she can interact with them in funny ways.
“why are people so exited about her? She has so far been socially withdrawing and a little passive agressive with her sarcasm. That’s it. What’s the draw?”
My personal interest in her comes from:
– She’s socially withdrawn! I actually really like that in a character because it promises an arc where they either learn to connect and find friends or where their trait of being withdrawn becomes important to the story and characters around them. It’s a trope I really vibe with.
– She’s sarcastic (I disagree that she’s passive-aggressive). There’s something awesome about a woman with a big shiny spine and the willingness to tell people who aren’t treating her right that it annoys her. It tells me that she’s a protective person, at the moment that’s just aimed at protecting her peace but it gives her the possibility of really standing for what’s right or what’s good in the future.
– As a non-white person, I dig seeing non-white characters. It delights me that we get to see more of her, and I’m OBSESSED with the fact that she’s very clearly some flavor of queer. Representation genuinely matters.
– She’s snarky but she’s lonely and reaching out for connection (bowling, talking to Alice, etc) and I’m here cheering her on. I hope she finds it!
Basically all of this. And it’s so weird because “snarky and slightly misanthropic” is extremely popular with everyone up until they’re not white cis men. Then suddenly we have to justify why we like such unlikable characters.
(Obviously I’m white but also capable of being excited on other folks’ behalf! And plus I like interesting stories with texture, and more diversity adds both.)
Jesus Li, I don’t think there was any call to lump this as “because they are not white cis men”.
Feels like you are just looking for things to pigeonhole now, and not for the first time.
Okay, Adept.
(It’s a subconscious bias thing! It’s not something anyone is doing on purpose!)
Thanks Nymph.
Yeah, I don’t really get it either. So far her appearances feel pretty forced and she just kind of comes across as Sarah redux. I’m hopeful that will change once we get past the retroactively inserted strips.
Asma is being squeezed into a plot that wasn’t meant to hold her. I can be excited about this, or I can be frustrated about it, and since I like all of Willis’s characters, this is an easy choice. Hurray for more Amsa!
You just described a bunch of fun likable traits like they were negatives, I’m confused
I just like her design and I like somewhat grumpy characters, I don’t need a lot of reason to be super excited to see more of her lol.
She got upgraded to full character, just like Alice did.
She’s been one-note “grumpy front desk girl” long enough. Time for her to step into the limelight. Other characters have had their turn in the past, others’ time is yet to come… now is the hour for Asma. 😁
Becky is taking the fact Joyce had an easy coming out with extreme negativity and it’s not a good look. Basically, lashing out at everyone and God because something GOOD happened to her friend. It’s really not a good look for her and shows she can’t be happy for her friends.
Mind you, I think unlike Joyce, Becky never allowed herself to be mad and being upset as a thing that passes is not in her wiring. Hence why she’s “lost her faith” (I don’t know if this is meant to be permanent or not).
I really don’t think that’s what Becky’s upset about
She has made a joke about how much of a lesbian she is as a way of branding herself in a world she feels unmoored in. Not only is it possible that she might be into men one day, Joyce — who she loves more than anything — had her sexuality change too, thus casting even more doubt about things she believed were fundamentally right and wrong. That is going to make her doubt if god really exists.
Our girl is not doing well.
So, a few things here:
– It’s actually SUPER reasonable for Becks to find life unfair right now and to be upset about it.
– She isn’t really lashing out about a good thing happening to Joyce so much as being crushingly depressed that a LOT of bad things happened to HER.
– It’s also actually fine to need a beat when something that was incredibly hard for you comes easy to a friend. She can have feelings that aren’t all puppies and rainbows and it’s super normal.
Thanks for putting this on here.
For real.
If Becky were like, berating Joyce for having had an easier time, that would suck even if I’d understand the emotional underpinnings, but she is LITERALLY just feeling things right now.
Some real “Selfish: Man Finds Time to Build a Birdhouse While Jonbenet Ramsey’s Killer Still At Large” energy around here sometimes.
And you don’t think the loss of faith is more to do with not being the object of Joyce’s affection, not even being seen as an option for the one she loved for years? Also that the one who did make Joyce realize she was gay was the same person Becky felt was threat to her friendship with Joyce, further making Becky feel unworthy?
I mean, it could be either one, or even both, but we’ve only seen her comment about how Joyce was indeed gay, just not gay for her, and nothing (as far as I recall) about how Joyce is having an easier time.
Also, any comparison about Joyce having it easier than Becky only really applies to Hank not trying to Kidnap Joyce to pray the gay away.
While it’s extremely doubtful that Dorothy’s parents would have a problem, they don’t seem to know, yet, and so she can’t compare it to how her roommate and her roommate’s parents reacted; there are several moving parts that keep it from being a 1 to 1 comparison.
Also, there’s still Joyce’s mom who could go full Toe-Dad, as there’s no indication that she (is it Carol?) knows; it’s only been like 36 hours.
It’s not really lashing out, more panic followed by moping, both of which are completely understandable.
Becky’s main story arc at the moment is specifically about seeing her best friend, to whom she was attracted for a long time, having realized she can be attracted to women not be attracted to Becky herself.
Most of Becky’s life situation as shown in DoA has been the kind of events that specifically make a person feel inferior/lesser (her father’s talking points and their hometown church’s behaviors are examples). The fact Joyce can be attracted to women but isn’t attracted to Becky is exacerbating/reinforcing her existing feelings of inferiority. Her recent fight with Dina grows from this, in part because from the outside it looks like something else far more hurtful and neither of them has the base to understand the difference. Her now questioning her faith also seems like something that grows out of this.
Becky’s ideas are even fleshed out enough to properly fill her word balloon, but who among us hasn’t used a sneaky spacebar in a time of spiritual need?
May the typo be with you always.
Becky lives!
Also, I do not want to imagine the bombastic side eye Asma would throw Becky’s way if Becky gave her a surface elevator-ride-length rundown of what has shaken her belief in God, because I’m not sure Becky has time to work down to the actual messy foundation and Asma doesn’t seem like she’d have patience for the “my friend who rejected me realized she was bi after all and it’s nuked my relationship” if that’s all Becky can get out.
I hope Becky’s crisis of faith is not permanent. Her maintaining her faith while Joyce discarding it was one of her most interesting features as a character contrast.
Also, I know it’s not likely… but Becky x Asma shippers? Anyone else now?
Becky *is* one of the few people shown to remember Asma’s name…
Could be quite an interesting direction to take Becky’s crisis-of-faith arc in.
yeah, the theology and religious studies dork in me would be giddy with excitement to watch people of two different faiths compare and contrast. but i am not sure how much of an audience there would be for that besides me and maybe two oyher people, lol. 😅
*other
I would have… concerns about this proposed arc, mostly because I’m not sure Willis is, at this point, up to as sincere and nuanced examination of Islam as he’s given to Christianity in its various flavors. The dual traps of ignorant critique and the beyond critique overcorrection are pretty hard to navigate if you’re not at least involved in the group in question.
I was thinking it!! (the shipping) it would be an interesting direction, if Dina is Done with being second fiddle :]
I mean, I hope not, because I think they had a really cute dynamic together… but I can understand if that is Dinah’s response. Just because Becky only said these words in a moment of profound emotional stress (and regretted them immediately) does not take away how hurtful they were.
I’m pretty sure it’s a phase, just judging from a meta standpoint. 1. It’d be redundant after Joyce’s arc, 2. It contrasts to Joyce’s arc pretty hard in that we saw a real ongoing crisis of faith that was built up from a number of factors. It wasn’t (just) a hurt rejection, it was a full blown realization that not only can she not actually believe this stuff, she never really did. She just needed the strict rules. Becky’s faith also contrasted pretty hard against Joyce’s, she never cared about (most of) the rules, in fact you could say Becky had actual faith where Joyce had instructions. We’ve never seen Becky question her faith before, it was always flexible enough to accommodate new information. Idk if your core beliefs can meaningfully change that quickly, particularly after everything she’s been through so far. This is just pain, self harm possibly. So far she’s pushed away her two main sources of comfort (her wonderful girlfriend and the thought of a loving God).
My crackpot theory, I think this is more than just heartbreak. I think she’s shame spiraling. Learning about DoJo broke her heart and violently ripped those insecurities about being unlovable back to the surface. I think she felt guilty about being so heartbroken over it when she has Dina, so she pushed her away because she doesn’t think she deserves her. I think the deal with her faith is similar. In Becky’s mind, she is unlovable and terrible and evil for feeling this way in the first place when she has Dina and what is wrong with her, this is what’s wrong with her, shes unlovable because she doesn’t deserve it, she doesn’t deserve Dina or her friends or the warmth of a loving God. I think she still believes in God, she’s just pushing him away the way she is with Dina.
okay, i think this take might actually make more sense than any other i have seen so far.
Aw, thanks!
If Asma wants half formed ideas she could go talk to Professor Whatshisface.
oooooo BURN XD
Loving the colours. Becky’s hair with the green and the purple.
Interesting…
I feel like befriending Asma could be a very good thing for Becky if that’s where this is going. She seems like a level-headed influence that may be able to help her through what she’s going through. And Becky could probably give her some fun and socialization. Curious to see if this goes anywhere.
Not sure how much fun Becky’s going to be, having broken up with Dina, Joyce, *and* God this morning.
Tbh Becky could use a mature friend with her shit together. Actually together, not…that performance of having your shit together while actually being a fucking mess dotty had going on
to say nothing of Billifer, who is the absolute reigning dowager empress of “pretending to have your shoo together, but absolutely not.”
Becky: My friend Joyce…
Asma: The woman who thinks that I can forgive in the name of all Muslims?
*Joyce pops up*
Joyce: I HAVE NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR!
so funny i forgot to laugh :p
:/
Good to see that Becky’s up and about. That’s a good sign. She’s also got her mask mostly back on and I’m less sure that’s a good sign.
Elevator privilege
First world elevator.
Third world elevators need operators, which complicates the social dynamics.
The difference is just that some of us are just… raised differently. 😏
+1, that was lovely
As someone who hasn’t been religious in decades I find it hard to understand people who suddenly stop believing. I guess I just assume that if you’re willing to overlook all the bad things happening to good people, overlooking your own hardship, and all the other evidence the idea of any one moment being what disenfranchises you feels odd.
In the same way where I don’t recall any one event that made me stop believing in Santa.
It’s fine. Santa believes in you.
I went to Catholic mass and I was FAR more upset finding out Santa wasn’t real then finding out God wasn’t real.
Whzt do you mean Santa ain’t real?
i mean, st. nicholas of myra was most likely a real person. so, technically he is?
as someone who grew up in a fundie household, i also dont remember any one given event that shook me so hard i Stopped Believing. It was the patient love of “non believers” who led me there over many years of friendship. If anything, big awful things that make you spiral make you cling to your faith harder? it’s been a bit weird for me, too
But i suppose there’s also sorts of different types in this world
“If anything, big awful things that make you spiral make you cling to your faith harder?”
Up until now, that’s been Becky’s experience in a nutshell. But, Joyce actually being into girls, from Becky’s wounded perspective, changes the situation from “Joyce and I never could have been together, so it’s cool” to “Joyce has been actively rejecting me as long as I’ve known her,” and Joyce is the absolute last person from the now-extinct part of her life where she felt happy and connected to a family.
An unbreakable connection to a group who can never reject her, has always been the motivation for Becky to stay connected to God; now, her Mom is dead, her Dad is dead, her original congregation has disowned her, and she just found out that the last person she desperately needed to never abandon or reject her, just abandoned and rejected her – and, for the exact woman that her internal gaydar has been screaming was a threat to her connection to Joyce, ever since she met her.
Joyce lost her faith when she did, because the crux of her faith was that God is a real, objective force that has real power over the universe, to whom she must owe allegiance; so, all it took was for her to genuinely learn and experience the world outside of her bubble, and the sense of goodness she learned in service of God, is the very thing that caused her to renounce him.
Becky lost her faith when she did, because she didn’t care about the reality of God, but instead cared about the bond of community God inspired. From her perspective, as long as her connection to Joyce stayed sacrosanct, then God was sacrosanct. Since she’s convinced herself she has fully lost Joyce, and also convinced herself she’s lost Dina in the process of grieving that, she is now bereft of every tangible interpersonal connection around her, in which her continued faith was based.
A very plausible take. I enjoy your analyses Throwatron.
You get it.
I’m having a hard time squaring this with Becky’s longstanding willingness to go with whatever church she preferred aesthetically because she KNEW God loved her the way she was even if any given church was not particularly supportive of LGBT folks.
And it doesn’t seem to connect to Joyce, either, at least since Joyce’s conversion to atheism. Can you elaborate more on this idea that Becky’s community with two atheists was somehow inspired by God in a load-bearing way?
Yeah… I don’t think this is quite it. I might have an essay of my own fff.
So here’s my slowly baking take on where Becky’s head might be right now:
It’s not just the romantic rejection. Of course it isn’t. But Becky WAS raised in a similar way to Joyce, and one of the things they’ve always agreed strongly on is how they feel about True Love.
And I just think, after Becky lost her mother, got kicked out of Anderson, and knew she was about to lose her father in one way or another — part of her brain thought, this could just be what my love story looks like. All of that pain and loss could just be the path I had to take to find my one true love.
Initially, she hoped that would be Joyce. Definitely Becky’s first-ever crush, and certainly her longest crush. She hoped college had been just as eye-opening for Joyce as it had been for her (and in some ways, she was right). It would have been a very romantic story: mutual pining for like a decade that neither of them knew was pining until they were forcibly separated by being sent to different schools!
And Joyce’s family was just as religious as Becky’s family. Surely if Joyce returned her feelings, Joyce was ALSO about to be disowned.
They would both have lost everything but each other.
It would have been so romantic.
Not healthy. Not, ultimately, very happy! But so romantic.
It’s not what ultimately happened, of course, and Becky wound up with MORE than she would have gotten, if she and Joyce had been forced to, like, flee Indiana together and start a new life somewhere else. Becky wound up with not JUST a loving girlfriend but also a loving platonic best friend — and other friends! Supportive adults! Surrogate family members…!
But.
I do think having to hear Joyce basically claim a very similar love story to what Becky once hoped for… was still a bit of a kick in the teeth.
(I really do wonder if Becky would be taking all of this better if Joyce HADN’T basically confirmed all of Becky’s old fears in one fell swoop: not all of Becky’s jealousy here has been romantic, after all, but all the pieces come together in an unfortunate way and make it look like Joyce took one look at Dorothy and felt everything Becky had felt for Joyce for years.
Not to mention how much Joyce has changed over the last few months — it must feel like she and Dorothy have more in common now, after only a few months, than Becky and Joyce had after knowing each other for like a decade.)
But if it were just that, I don’t think Becky would be questioning her faith right now.
It’d suck! But lots of things in her life have sucked. And I don’t think she’s been Ruth this whole time — I don’t think she would’ve actually dumped Dina in a heartbeat if Joyce had suddenly expressed interest!
But it’s more to do with how Becky kept framing things that have happened to her as The Way It Had to Be. God gives his hardest trials to his strongest soldiers, they say.
Like, Becky lost her mom. She got kicked out of school. She got disowned by her dad. She HOPED, briefly, that that had brought her to Joyce in exactly the right way, so that the two of them could discover they were both in love with each other.
That didn’t happen, but Becky DID very quickly meet Dina.
And in a lot of ways, Dina has been The Perfect Partner for Becky — not only someone with parents so accepting that they immediately sent Dina money to take Becky out on a nice date, but someone who’s been immensely compatible with Becky sexually.
Like, yeah, there was a bit of a stumbling block (to put it mildly) for Becky over Dina’s demisexuality, but at the same time, it helped a lot that Dina was so comfortable and happy waiting for Becky to be ready to have sex in the first place. And they’ve had mostly a very good time exploring their sexualities together in the time since that discovery.
So: yeah, I can see Becky feeling like Dina was proof of a loving God.
And sure, her dad literally came after her with a shotgun, and then later kidnapped her — but like Becky said, God sent a literal superhero to save her the first time, and the friends she’d made in since then banded together to help save each other the second time.
Then there’s the scholarship she has, thanks to meeting Robin, which is enabling her education…
Yeah. It’s pretty easy to square a LOT of this with a loving God who, ultimately, hasn’t given Becky more than she can handle.
…But.
Now she has a very… direct comparison for all of that in Joyce. And it must surely suck.
Joyce getting what seems to be the exact type of fairy tale love-at-first-sight romance with Dorothy. Joyce’s dad not, actually, disowning her. Joyce’s coolest sibling turning out to be trans and SUPER not disowning her.
Joyce didn’t have to contend with her mom dying like that. Joyce didn’t have to contend with her dad turning violent and hateful. Joyce doesn’t have to worry about paying for her own education, either — and she’s not locked into any particular degree, either, unlike Becky.
And, as far as Becky can tell, because Joyce processed all of her sexual shame with OTHER people… Joyce hasn’t had to struggle with any of that. Joyce’s first time with Dorothy probably didn’t involve any shame-fueled weeping!
And Joyce DEFINITELY isn’t currently struggling with carrying a torch for someone she can’t have. Joyce’s relationship with Dorothy is probably perfect [citation kinda needed, but as far as Becky knows]!
I was definitely thinking it would be MORE about sexual fluidity for Becky, because we know she’s been anxious about that for a while, but the way Joyce told the story TO Becky, I’d honestly be surprised if Becky even knows Joyce is bi instead of thinking Joyce just, you know, finally overcome coercive heteronormativity and embraced being a lesbian. As fully valid as it is for Joyce to call herself gay, it doesn’t help that that keeps being the word she uses.
I wonder if we’ll see a second, different reaction from Becky once she knows everything.
But as things stand right now? It really must kind of seem to Becky like Joyce just got everything Becky’s always wanted — a “love at first sight” story of overcoming societal prejudice and internalized homophobia to realize you were “always” in love with your best friend… AND without having lost any of the things Becky’s lost along the way.
Joyce doesn’t even believe in God anymore. So why does it seem like God likes her so much better?
I also think the community element was *very* important to Joyce’s faith: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/04-vote-for-robin/recommended/
For sure.
A little while back a commenter eloquently listed out some of the emotional reactions of survivors of suicide; (very short version) “They left me”, “I was bad and made them want to leave me”, “I was bad and killed them”. There was another level left out that is particular to parental suicides – “My father killed my mother”.
It’s not a very big flex to see that Becky transferred a lot of her emotional stability to Joyce after her mother’s death. When Ross was going to put her in ‘lock & key reprograming’ Becky ran home – to Joyce. The bigger flex was after her father died. Becky redefined Dorothy from competitor as best friend to ‘nemesis’, a rule maker/follower that must be defied at every turn. She promoted Dorothy to father. She recreated the family she lost.
Straight Joyce meant this was semi stable structure aside from the occasional bouts of neurotic jealousy. Gay Joyce with Dorothy triggers a nuclear reaction.
“I’ve lost her (they left me) again.”
“He took her from me (killed her) again.”
“God let her die again.”
Heh. I’m almost the… not the inverse, maybe the contrapositive? of your background. I was raised very liberal Episcopalian, with deeply loving and supportive congregation, both racially diverse and socially progressive. It was getting out into the larger world, and coming into contact with conservative Christians, along with a string of other events, that caused me first to doubt, then abandon, faith-based thinking. By the time I’d encountered Movement Atheism, I was already done with all but the vestiges of my former faith.
There’s an idiom about a camel and a straw’s back or something like that that seems relevant
I agree with Tan, like last time this subject came up I brought up how things went for me and it was honestly just a lot of things adding up over time. It may only look sudden because we’re viewing it from the perspective of an outsider rather than that person’s head. For a lot of religious people (especially Protestants and Catholics) suffering is just part of life. Bad shit happens to you, bad shit happens to others, it’s all (insert specific religious reason here such as original sin), what matters is that upon death that suffering is gonna balance out with lots of happy shit in heaven. The breaking of the camel’s back comes when people just can’t take it anymore. When even the promise of eternal sunshine and happiness upon death just doesn’t make the current suffering feel worth it. When they cry and beg and pray for God to help and seemingly go unanswered.
My thought exactly. That’s when I stopped believing. I had reasons to before then, but they all had to accumulate until the proverbial straw tipped me over.
Apropos of nothing. What is your wildest DOA Crackship(s)?
Becky and Daisy
Angry Rachel and Pat McHoarney
Alice / Daisy. I thought it’d be really funny if Jen accidentally hooked the wrong ex up with her boss. Time for it has passed, but it would have ruled.
To that point Alice / Ruth would also be really funny
Booster x Mike
I mean, it’s not like we *know* they didn’t get it on in fall semester before Mike died.
What would be really cracked is Mike x Booster after Mike died.
Booster x Mike, but specifically Amber’s head Mike.
Dina and Joe
Mike and Booster
Walky and Asher
Dorothy and Jen. It would solve everything!
This is actually my preferred ship for Dorothy. I can’t think of a single more entertaining partner for her (for my personal taste). It would be a nightmare, they would be awful together, and I would have so much fun reading it.
Asma and Ruth
Mike x Bonnie x Mrs Lessick x any other dead moms I’m forgetting.
Matthew 22:30 says it ain’t cheating, begone paladins!
Oh Billie x Joyce. God they’d be so goddamn cute.
thought about it for a second and we’re putting stocks in Booster x Galasso.
Raidah/Walky for sure.
Nope. It’s Raidah and David. She’s the only one outside his parent’s that uses his actual name. That’s what makes this crack ship so high brow, for the discriminating shipper!
Part of the character development I have planned out for Raidah in my head involves her learning to call him Walky
Tony x Ethan but only the walkyverse versions tbh
Hank + Galasso
Fuck I’ve thought about this before but I can’t remember
I’ve been sold on Walky x Raidah. I’ve also been riding for Walky x Joe since this whole thing started. Booster x literally anyone idc who. Fuck it i want them to become DoJo’s third bc what better way to get first rate tea?
blaine/toedad
As ghosts, or just dumping their corpses into one casket, in an incriminating position?
I considered neither of these possibilities. Thank you for opening my mind.
(To be honest when I posted that I was going for “maximum cursed” by pairing the two absolute worst characters in the cast.)
Nobody said Mary and Carla and I’m no hero but somebody had to step up.
Nah, Mary/Booster. The suffering for both would be exactly what the karma ordered.
Oh man I feel like delving into religion with these two cracks open the Pandora box of white Christianity vs Islam and all the cultural/societal weight put on both and that a tight rope to walk.
Like “religion is bad and god is dumb” coming FROM a LGBTQ character pushing against their Christian upbringing is a very progressive viewpoint.
“Religion is a bad and god is dumb” directed AT a visibly devout Muslim character is decidedly less progressive and threading that needle in is going to be a difficult trick to pull off
That’s a bold strategy Opinion., lets see if it pays off for Willis.
Real talk the biggest difference with Joyce and Becky atm is probably because Becky held onto her religion as a comfort, in spite of everything with her dad. Joyce dropped it mostly due to facing realities she didn’t feel comfortable just staying Christian anymore.
Islam and religion in general are topics that we’re really gonna have to see if Willis can even do with grace, given that Asma is still a new character relatively, and the other prominent Islamic woman is Raidah. Two women who couldn’t be anymore different in terms of their current appearances and behavior with the cast and plot in general lol
Dumbing of Age has been a comic about freshman relationship drama, growing up and waking up from unquestioning religous upbringing, and the dangers of fundamentalist Christianity. A serious take on what it means to be a young, brown, Muslim woman in Indiana seems rather outside of those parameters.
This is honestly why I’m not so far keen on Asma as a viewpoint character. Nothing against her as such, but it’s hard to see her getting up to serious hijinks (let alone featuring in a slipshine!) without things exploding into an epic drama storm.
Additionally I’m not convinced Willis is well equipped to write Asma’s perspective.
Its something I hope Willis takes some outside input for, but I won’t hold my breath on that. Benefit of the doubt, so far Asma hasn’t said or done anything that completely makes me think Wiliis only put her forward to have a Muslim woman for the quota.
This is my major concern with Asma as a character, in no small part because it can go wrong in either direction. If he’s not stumbling into offensive stereotypes, it might only be because he’s not giving her any flaws at all, esp. w/regard to her faith.
I for one dont care if characters can feature in Slipshine personally.
that weird dichotomy of “is it more progressive to have only the non Muslim women sex, or is it bigoted to not have them engage in the sex?”. People love their Slipshine, but I dunno how much Willis wants to kick the hornets nest with having Asma be anywhere near that lol
Yeah, that’s a weird bar for entry. There are plenty of characters in the comic who aren’t going to be in slipshines.
For some that is a very good thing. I can’t imagine anyone, regardless their orientation, wanting to see anything from Carol, Toedad, Blaine, or like… Mary.
I hate to inform you that Mary smut does exist, as drawn by the hand of God (Willis). Not a full on slipshine, but a very NSFW single pinup page
For real? Huh… was not aware of that. There’s a joke about “different strokes for different folks” in there, but nothing’s coming to mind.
For the record, I didn’t mean I’d be looking for Asma featured in a Slipshine. I’m just saying that youthful sexy hijinks are very much a part of the comic.
One way to thread it might be to not have anyone in the scene saying “religion is bad and god is dumb” at all, and instead have an LGBTQ character who believed God accepted her as such until two days ago tell a Muslim character how much she envies that she still has her faith.
I mean, just for instance.
i mean… that’s how i read it
That’s how I read it, as well. I really didn’t get “religion is bad and god is dumb” from anything Becky said in this strip. Just honest envy.
Yeah, I think a lot of folks are expecting Becky to be as awful at atheism as Joyce was during her first couple weeks (months?) of it.
I think it’s a case of being not remotely progressive in this case. Directed at Asma or not.
It’s just what it is.
I find this idea that progressiveism is somthing that even applies in the situation to be incomprehensible. Either god exists or it does not. Either Christianity is true, or Islam is true, or neither is true. None of this has anything to do with progressiveness or the lack thereof. They’re facts about the nature of the universe.
In a sense, that’s true and it’s an argument lots of prominent atheists have used, but the reality is we live in a very Christian society with a lot of prejudice against Muslims, so when we attack Islam, even from an atheist perspective, we have the societal weight behind us. That’s very different from when atheists in the West target Christianity.
This would of course be largely reversed for atheists in Muslim countries.
I don’t see how this has anything to with the the progressivism (or lack thereof) of anyone other than the character expressing those opinions.
“Religion is dumb and bad” is actually not the viewpoint Dumbing of Age has ever put forth, even once, in its entire run, so. I’m not sure why Willis would start now.
Like, people keep expecting it to be the thesis statement of this comic, but what it’s actually grifty cults and rigid fundamentalism that Willis has consistently presented as bad.
I know that for a certain stripe of atheists, that describes “all religions, actually”, but Willis has always taken pains to portray even Christians as individuals rather than a monolith. Lucy and Jennifer and Mary and Joyce would all have self-described as Christian at the beginning of this comic, but they all had different ways of approaching Christianity, and Willis has been pretty clear, honestly, that they’re not all equally bad or wrong.
I’d hedge that slightly. I agree that the thesis, “Religions are all equally bad” is nowhere in the text of this comic. I disagree with the claim that “Religions are all equally wrong” isn’t in there. One could argue that even showing both Becky (pre-crashout) and Asma in the same comic in generally positive fashions would be a pretty solid rejection of both their faiths, in that in order for either of them to be actually correct would necessitate the other being wrong.
While Willis correctly reserves his ire for zealots and hypocrites, his worldbuilding is very distinctly atheist in nature. Compare this with the It’s Walky/FANS! crossover back in the day, where explicitly Christian faith was demonstrably ‘correct’, even without a personal appearance by JC.
That’s not what I meant by “wrong”. I don’t care if a given religion is right or wrong about cosmology generally, I care about how its followers treat other human beings.
But like. Yeah, DoA has not commented on whether or not “all religions are wrong” in the sense of them being incorrect about cosmology. I don’t think Willis cares about that any more than I do.
I strongly disagree.
A central theme of the comic has been waking up from magical thinking. Considering the background and personal story of the author, I’m surprised by how many seem to read this strip as a somehow “pro religion” story.
If anything, the clear headed secular materialism of Dina feels as close to the author’s core world view as we’ve seen.
It’s not “pro-religion”, either, and I didn’t say it was…?
It’s just not ANTI-religion.
Joyce had, like, a whole character arc about learning to stop being rude and mean about other people’s religious beliefs and was explicitly called out for thinking being an atheist made her smarter than other people.
Like. The central theme is JOYCE waking up and leaving HER faith, and that part is fairly autobiographical.
But you’ll notice Dina has never been pitted against Lucy or Jacob or Agatha or Sierra or Asma. You’ll notice that her arguments even with Joyce have been staunchly based in the specific falsifiable lies Joyce and Becky were indoctrinated with re: evolution and fossils. You’ll notice that she and Becky were perfectly content agreeing to disagree about whether or not there’s an afterlife…
Like I think it’s just more accurate to describe DoA as pro-science as well as being staunchly against anti-science, but plenty of religious people are just quietly religious while still being quite pro-science and pro-other-people’s-religious-freedom-and-civil-rights, and DoA has never taken issue with them. That’s all.
I really like Becky’s hair in panels 4 and 6.
I agree. I’m not looking forward to her haircut.
Gotta say, not very leadership of Becky or Asma. Real disappointed in both of them! Trust half formed ideas!
Becky trying to shut up, because speaking incautiously has led to nothing but bad (in her mind) of late, is intensely relatable (to me).
This is probably not an accurate observation but seeing Becky stand next to Asma makes me think most of the cast is the exact same height. It’s like two tiers. Tall ladies like Carla, Sarah, Ruth, Rachel, Alice, and then everyone else is like exactly 5’4.
I await the next 5 years until we actually get closure to this.
Nah, the elevator ride shouldn’t last more than 2-3 years, tops.
*Asma has joined into Paladins*
*World of Warcraft quest sound effects*
the story that someone was wrongly convinced of they unwavering faith is probably half of the anecdotes and sermons
Life is full of half-formed ideas anyway, tell ya hwat.
Asma has her own cast page– what
guess it’s good she’ll have more of a role(tho i guess the cast list spoils mikes death tho idk if a new reader not familiar with shortpacked/other works would be that attached to him)
she deserves it
i mean even if asma also randomly stopped believing i imagine a handful of ppl like her would still either wear her hijab outta habit /some still wearing it for modesty/personal reasons w/o it being connected to religion
Part of it depends on the reason for abandoning Islam. A slow erosion of faith would likely be matched by an equally drawn-out abandonment of faith-based practices; she might use her prayer schedule as a time for meditation, and could easily start wearing other, more varied headcoverings and just not freaking out when she realizes she forgets one day. OTOH, a sharp and purposeful decision to quit her faith would likely result in an equally dramatic ditching of not only the hijab, but something akin to going out in an outfit meant to draw the eye (not necessarily something scandalous, just something not designed with ‘modesty’ in mind–bright colors and form-flattering, even if only a little more skin is exposed).
Happy to see both of these two.
That Becky is presenting like this in front of someone doesn’t necessarily tell us much about what’s going on in her head, because she’s good at masking, but it still feels positive that she took the step of leaving her room.
Chat, are we shipping it?
Hence the start of the very surprising and controversial “Becky converts to Islam” arc
Like I doubt it but also I’m in.
Don’t know if I’m more excited about Becky or Asma
How NGE’s elevator scene SHOULD have played out.
Put Grandpa Wrex in there, he can teach them how to use shotguns on annoying people.
i want this so much, you have no idea.
I’m not sure there are enough dead mothers in DoA for a proper NGE crossover. There’s only Becky and Ruth, as far as I recall. Or have I missed someone?
(NGE hidden lore or fanon says that Evas only work for you if your mother’s soul was bound into it. I.e. an AT field is a mother’s love.)
Seeing Becky walking to class is making me go “OH THANK GOD, she’s not dead or something.”
I suppose it is fairly realistic that these white girls from Indiana are just categorically incapable of being normal around a Muslim woman
I’ll extend Becky a bit more grace than Joyce here because she’s very much not in her normal headspace at the moment.
I bet the tear gas and the ravishing Joyce got from Dorothy hasn’t helped her thinking straight either. :p
yeah, Becky ain’t in a good place right now. though I will say even during her moment of crisis, she’s doing damn well for an ex-fundie. you would not believe some of the shit they say about people of other faiths (then again, maybe you would.) That Becky grew up hearing that stuff and resisted internalizing it to the point she can just casually chat with Asma is impressive in itself. That may not seem like much, but you’d be surprised how low the bar is with these things.
Becky’s a good kid. I hope things get better for her soon, she deserves it.
Becky’s not normal around anyone rn, she’d probably say the same shit if she were in the elevator with Agatha or Lucy or Jake. Honestly maybe a talk with Lucy or Jake would do her some good. She got on well with him in the seduction arc and she and Lucy were church buds. But they’re also not fundies, esp Jake who seems to be more theologically academic, philosophical about his religion. I wish we saw more if a friendship with Becky and those two on screen. Then again, maybe Lucy’s similarities to Joyce would just hurt rn
very much this. becky’s normal social network is not available right now. she was roommates with dorothy, friends with joyce, and dinah’s gf… all the people she would normally go to with this stuff are part of the situation she’s upset about. double agree that lucy would be good to talk to. i think becky is chatting up complete strangers because she feels like she has no one to turn to or confide in left. her suddenly oversharing with someone she only waves at in the hallway is a pretty natural reaction.
Lucy’s friendship with Becky was for a long time my favorite little detail about either of them.
(Which isn’t to say I didn’t like the characters, I just really liked how they bounced off each other religiously, even when the topic of conversation was “how do I get Joyce to come back to church with me”, which isn’t a very endearing thing for people to try to do, heh.)
I require more of their dynamic as sustenance
I mean, whether it is endearing or rude definitely depends on the person and the delivery, as well as how often it’s done. If someone is like “Hey, this thing is important to me and has been a positive force in my life, and the door’s always open if you want to give it a try” that’s a country mile from “Look, if you don’t show up, my Sky Daddy will set you on fire forever for being such a monstrous piece of evil filth.”
The other thing is how often they’ve asked you. If they offer once, you decline, and they respect your boundaries and don’t ask again? No harm, no foul. But if they’re badgering you ever week (or God forbid, every day) then it gets old real quick.
My sophomore religion teacher (Catholic high school) said that “God is a gentleman, He forces himself on no one.”* So if your tactics to get people to come to church with you involve shame, coercion, deception, bullying, intimidation, or abuse, safe to say God probably has nothing to do with your motives, and you’re really doing it to satisfy your own ego and/or build up some kind of fundie ‘street cred.’
Though, it bears mentioning the terrifying existential terror that the fundies will put into their flock, especially the kids, and that goes triple for kids in the congregation who go to a non-fundie school or university. From 6th grade to freshman year of high school I got hit with the following spiel at least once a week, if not more: “If you have any friends that aren’t Christian (read: go to our specific individual church) then you have to witness to them 24/7, because God put you in their life to save them, so if you’re too chicken or too worried about decorum or offending people, your non-saved friends will be tortured forever and it will be all your fault!!!”
*And while I get what he meant by this sentiment, the phrasing still throws me off a bit. Like, I feel like respecting consent is the baseline, not some mark of uncommon virtue.
I mean. Gosh.
I think that Lucy and Becky trying to come up with ways of un-atheist-ing Joyce was an unlikable thing for them to do, but I still liked the way they bounced off each other while they were talking. That’s all I meant.
I think trying to evangelize anyone, but especially someone you think is vulnerable and needs help, sucks! I think at the very least it’s rude, and it slides very easily into actually predatory. And also that it’s not just the ones receiving the hypothetical evangelizing who are being preyed upon: it’s well-documented at this point that, like, encouraging the members of your congregation to proselytize, especially door-to-door, is itself preying on THEM. It sets them up to face a lot of hostility, it sets them up to lose friends and neighbors, and it sets them up to be more dependent on their church for a sense of not just religious identity but friendship and family.
So yeah they were actively trying to do something crappy, but I still liked their chemistry together. If that makes sense.
Too true.
They really can’t help themselves huh?
(The stance then being that in a world without deities, those with a serious misunderstanding of the reality they’re living in are luckier than those without. I can see why to a religious person this could be found condescending, like a parent talking to another parent about {a child who’s learnt zebras and unicorns are both real animals you might see in zoos} and saying how nice and precious it is to have dreams, “dreams” here being “falsehoods that the person in question thinks are everyday normal things and doesn’t know are special in the eyes of others”.)
It could, and Asma might well be reading it that way, but I don’t think it’s all intended that way, given that Becky’s faith just collapsed yesterday.
She’s not thinking of it in those terms at all.
Points in Becky’s favor, she remembered Asma’s name without prompting.
As someone who’s an atheist and has been for a long time, I’m always a bit glad when someone stops believing in their religion. But I’m kinda surprised that after all the bad stuff Becky’s been through, it’s Joyce and Dorothy getting together that finally caused her to lose her faith.
Other (smarter) people have pointed out that fundies often view atheism as being angry at and revolting against God. And though Becky isn’t a fundamentalist anymore, she’s in a vulnerable enough state that she probably lapses into that mindset (similar to how Joyce, nervous for her first time, started yelling about angry angels). So I don’t think Becky actually stopped believing in God, she’s just performatively yelling Nietzsche because that’s an acceptable outlet for the pain she’s feeling.
Can confirm. I have done this myself once or twice, in extreme situations where emotions are running particularly high… or occasionally as a sassy joke, if I’m with a social circle that finds that kinda comment funny.
As an atheist too, that is kinda weird. The “glad someone abandon their religion” part to be specific.
I don’t think it’s that weird. I assume that most Christians are glad when someone converts to Christianity, and that most Muslims are glad when someone converts to Islam, and so on with other religions. Likewise I’m a little glad when someone abandons religion.
I’m down for this friendship
Joyce hooking up with Dorothy is seriously going to be the catalyst that makes Becky lose her faith? That’s such a pathetic and selfish reason. It makes a mockery of her character that she made a point out of holding onto it after all the other much nastier things she’s had to deal with, but this is a bridge too far.
There’s been discussions about Becky’s loss of faith. Her first crush hooking up with another girl did throw her off kilter, but many have theorized that it’s more that the universe seemed to REWARD Joyce for her sexuality where it SEVERELY punished Becky for it. Ross kidnapped Becky with a shotgun in an effort to “correct” her, whereas Hank just shrugged his shoulders at the revelation that Joyce was gay and said “at least you’re not a communist.” Joyce then flaunted the parental-approved relationship by putting the front page picture of her kissing Dotty on the doorknob. Becky has pretty much figured that it’s better to not believe in God at all and have this be all random chance than believe in a God that CLEARLY favors Joyce, who renounced her faith months ago, to Becky the firm believer.
Or you could scroll back up and read Throwatron’s essay on this topic.
Narratively I hope Becky finds her way back to good just to keep the contrast with Joyce
There’s an interesting difference with Becky experiencing a loss of faith but I was interested in watching an ex fundie learn to not be forceful with her religion
Er, I hope that ”back to good” was a typo.
i suspect autocorrect or something changed it from “god”
Oh my gosh, I have been autocorrect to a different kind of take 😂
This is even worse than what happened to the scooby gang
Becky: “I don’t know how to combine my faith and smooching girls any more.”
Asma: “Pathetic.”
Becky: “Huh?”
Asma: “You heard me.”
i would love this conversation. not because i want becky to get insulted, but rather it would be a cool, and unexpected, way for becky to find her way back to her faith. bonding with someone else who juggles their queerness with a progressive take on their religion.
Becky! My girl! Her hair is especially cutely drawn in the last three panels!
The sophomores in the strip are pretty cynical. Ruth. Raidah. Sarah. Even Tony is very focused in ways we don’t see among the freshmen. The first years aren’t very good at adulting yet. But the sophomores seem like they’re angry beyond their years.
Yeah, you’re not supposed to get that cynical until you’re a junior!
We get kind of this weird sketchy outline that before the strip began, the current sophomores had a pretty crazy freshman year too.
And Ruth actually is a junior, thus her cynicism is expected.
Don’t forget Rachel
Pft. Amateurs, all of ’em. I can half-form ideas long past my twenties.
(and thirties)
((and forties))
Flashback to the idiotic movie “Signs” where Mel Gibson stops believing in God because something bad happened, then starts believing in God again because something good happened.
Maybe I’m biased because I actually enjoyed that movie, but that feels like a really reductive description of the plot…
Oh, it is. It glosses over the galaxy’s dumbest aliens. They melt like the Wicked Witch of the West when water gets on them, then land on a planet that is mostly covered by the stuff. They couldn’t master a kitchen door lock. It’s a wonder they landed in one piece.
I have lots of dumb movies I enjoyed, so if you liked this one, make popcorn!
Oh that I won’t argue for a second. Even as a kid I was scratching my head at the logic behind that bit.
This’ll be good.
Becky: blah blah blah lesbian blah blah blah Joyce blah blah blah kissing.
Asma: Your entire theology was “I’m awesome and that means God is awesome.” Thus, when you stopped feeling awesome, you stopped “believing” in God, if something so egocentric can be called “belief” at all
Yeah, pretty much this.
Also Asma: “Do I LOOK like your pastor? Why am *I* your theological counselor all of a sudden, that ain’t in the ‘front desk clerk’ training manual.”
Becky: I’m kind of between churches at the moment what with the first one I belonged to paying a bounty on my head.
Becky shouldn’t be bugging Asma with this apropos of nothing, but this is a needlessly reductive and cruel way to characterize Becky’s faith.
I should clarify that I’m experiencing “Asma’s” reductiveness in that post in character a bit — that’s not an accurate description of Becky’s faith, certainly, but she often is loudly superficial/enthusiastic in places where it’s likely Asma has heard her going on.
That’s literally not at all what Becky belief was based on but go off i guess.
It’s always stuck out to me how very brittle fundamentalist Christianity is. It’s why they cordon themselves off in a cultural bubble. Any interaction with the broader world will very quickly disabuse them off all the notions they were raised in. Someone like Asma, raised in a society where her religious beliefs are a small minority, would have had to confront such things constantly. Becky and Joyce (and I’m guessing Willis) are experiencing what a lot of people raised in that bubble experience: epistemic collapse on meeting the wider world. If you look at the background of “Nones” in the context of religious identification, fundamentalist Christians who’ve experienced epistemic collapse are wildly over-represented. Because their faith is almost uniquely vulnerable to it.
While Asma’s faith can almost certainly withstand a thirty second elevator ride, Becky’s might not.
Regardless of her father and the church she was expected to attend, Becky has never been a fundamentalist. Faith has always been much more personal to her, and we’re strongly led to believe it was that way for her mother too.
I agree, though I’ll also point out that the Muslim communities I’ve been adjacent to have been extremely insular and protective from western influence. Many teen hijabis I’ve met seem to don the hijab principally to remain close to their community more than devout faith, as integration within western communities proves extremely challenging even if you go to a public school and sound like an average person in your town.
As a secular expat, I’m super envious of Muslim expat friends, like they just need to link into the local diaspora and they’re set with their own support network – never seen atheists adequately organise that way, much less expat atheists. But that’s what religion does, it facilitates community because people in isolation struggle to build community without a foundational common cause. By offering community, it’s much easier to get converts, and on a basic level in each person’s mind, it is expected that you are there for those within your religious community. The fears of the unknown and outgroups are strong, and this is triply the case for first and second-generation Arab Muslim expats, who really have odds stacked against them when it comes to integrating somewhere like the midwestern US.
Around 9/11, I lived in a region of the Midwest where Muslims needed to be in isolated communities because hostilities were just so high towards any brown person that it was a threat to their lives to be in rural majority-white regions. I don’t honestly think that’s disappeared, in many regions it may even be worse. All that said, I think Asma is brave as hell attending a state school in the Midwest.
beckyyyyyyy
Asma wished more girls would notice her and remember her name, and the monkey’s paw curled.
Becky’s gonna walk out of that elevator Muslim isn’t she
Y’all really think Becky is that malleable?
She is at one the lowest points of her life, she might look for comfort in the most unlikely of places.
The strip’s most no-bullshit character and the strip’s most self-aware character in an elevator together? This could go fantastic or terrible.
https://www.tumblr.com/dumbingofage/801839451280146432/thanks-for-the-screen-answer-i-have-another?source=share
Hey completely unrelated to the strip but i remember people being confused about this point so i share it anyway.
That’s very helpful, thank you.
yaaaay two of my faves having their first interaction <3 love to see it
Always kind of amused at explorations of faith and atheism in fiction where, in a metatextual context, there actually *is* a creator deciding their actions and fates.
(To be clear I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done and can’t be great – just that it’s funny when you think of them having this crisis, and this discussion, due to the Hand of Willis)
Random aside: I believe Robin from Stranger Things is just live action Becky by the way she behaves.
Robin has a better haircut, though.
I mean, we’ve seen the preview panels.
Becky’s gonna have almost that exact haircut.
I hadn’t made the connection to Robin, but you’re totally right!
Oh, she actually meant it? I took it more as an exaggeration she would tone down after the initial shock.