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The neurodivergent closest to me (besides me) is a real life Joyce who refused to ever experience self doubt (and consequently growth) and is suddenly being crushed by realizations about the consequences of her actions.
Uh, are we even reading the same comic? I’m referring to the way she’s doubting her ability to understand things or feel real feelings on account of her being “autistic”.
To be fair you can feel the same way (_doubting her ability to understand things or feel real feelings on account of her being “autistic”_) if you have certain personality dissorders. As a person diagnosed with the later and feeling just the same as you descrive, I would like to ask if the difference resides on the origin of these feeligs? I mean, my crippling self-doubt and dificulties with socializing and “understanding” many social behaviors comes from a “voice” in the back of my mind constantly questioning every decision I make, every scenario “I think I understand”, the intentions of every person I meet, etc. It is the narrative of this voice which often changes what I initially perceive more “correctly” that then loops and distorts everything. Is this how it works for you? Or did I misunderstand and what you meant was that this self-doubt is only result of the diagnosis and posterior “judgment” people go through after being “tagged” with autism?
You also get the joy of wondering if it is you not understanding social situations correctly that makes people treat you the way that they do, or if it’s them being jerks like you originally thought. You wonder if you were being rude or difficult to deal with without realizing that you were acting that way.
oh is this abt the autism thing? I thought it was the feect of medication. I had a crisis of identity when I took birth control because messing up your hormones can change how you feel abt everything and my brain was super duper confused and I started thinking like a completely different person. I tried a few different brand and each time it was like WHO AM I WHO IS THIS STRANGER THAT I WAS UNTIL YESTERDAY anyway I dropped the pills after a year of weird tests
Even if she’s started taking birth control, it’s been at most a few hours since she took the first pill. Not likely any noticeable hormonal effects yet.
Yeah, but it’s a new kind of insufferable so it hits fresh for people. I for one embrace Jennifer’s new sense of control and confidence even if it’s bordering on arrogance now. Pre-time skip she was really down on herself except for very brief moments.
IDK, at some point you’re basically stepping over people’s agency and telling them what to do because you quote unquote know better and get shit done. Jennifer seems to be toeing that line a lot.
Now she’s extra-determined to talk to Joyce, to prove to herself that she was right and she helped someone in a crisis situation and that they didn’t take one step forward and two steps back due to her guidance.
But this time, it was glaringly obvious that someone had to step up and give Joyce ‘the talk’. She is in a foul mood after running into Ruth, but as long as she respects Joyce’s boundaries, about something we all have reason to believe she knows nothing (and many lies) about, I’d say she’s being responsible. It’s up to Joyce to express those boundaries.
Unless ‘over the line’ meant disregarding Sarah’s judgment of who can and can’t talk to Joyce. Because that’s not Sarah’s call to make.
Jennifer is trying to bull her way into Sarah’s room against her wishes and said if she doesn’t like it she can leave. Her own room. And she doesn’t give a shit about Joyce. She just wants to be the “problem solver head cheerleader” again for herself and Joyce had a problem. That’s all. Sarah is in the right and Jennifer needs to fuck off and respect Sarah’s space and Joyce’s privacy. No one asked for her help with medication.
It’s Joyce’s room, too. Joyce and Jen seamed to connect during the visit. If Sarah doesn’t want one of Joyce’s friends there, she may leave.
Now if the Joyce turns her down, that’s different.
And the ‘waiting for Joyce after the appointment’ exchange with Walky suggests this is more than that.
If Sarah didn’t constantly throw unprovoked insults at Jennifer, I’d be more sympathetic.
And yet, Dan, when all her friends were putting Joyce in the too hard basket Jennifer was the one who got her help. Sarah even went so far as to drag her around campus, thank god it wasn’t something potentially fatal. If I had to choose, it wouldn’t be Sarah.
1.) I don’t know that I buy the stopped clock defense here.
2.) Maybe the feminine name and trans flag avatar do not make it clear but I do not appreciate being called “Dan”.
She never Sked Joyce if she wanted help. She just told her what to do and dragged her off. Joyce needed help, but Jennifer just wanted to control, much like now.
Every time I think about Twin Peaks, I still get a little mad at myself for believing it would get better for so long ;-; (according to my tastes, anyway; I know there’s a lot of people who enjoyed it).
The main problem with twin peaks isn’t hermetic symbolism or whatever we’ve shown as advancing sort of the plot. It’s the basic refusal of Lynch to care about any POC character to the point his depiction of an all-white community with token POCs (native and asian) as doomful and anxiety-inducing falls flat.
I’m gonna say it’s the autism thing. Considering the emotionless stereotype, I imagine there’s a lot of ugliness she’s learned running through Joyce’s head right now.
Fun fact: The concept of “Changelings” being fae children that were swapped in for regular children, usually in the first two years or so, who grew up strange and vaguely foreign, with strange mannerisms, weird emotional systems, strangely intelligent, and lacking in human social graces, tracks heavily with autism, in which symptoms begin to present at 12-18 months. Sometimes “changeling” children were left in the woods for the fae to take back.
As to “no soul”, flat affect was the cause for that rumor.
I dunno, being a soulless marxist alien parasite…. that sounds like a conservative bigot’s worse nightmare!
But in all seriousness, does anyone here know of any non-Western concepts of “autism”?
Many ancient cultures and aboriginal tribes around the world have concepts for non-binary people like me and accepting them as equals. Surely there are cultures out there with good words and comfortable places for neurodivergents too?
Do you think the mentats, in “Dune,” were supposed to be based on folks with autism or savant syndrome or another neurodivergence? Or possibly just highly trained concentrators?
You’re right, of course, Jamie. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes, of course. How awful of me. I was just repeating what I had read a few different places, hypothesizing that Williams Syndrome was one of the factors that could have given rise to the legends of elves and faeries. I apologize for stereotyping. I should have been more nuanced.
I hadn’t heard that before but it makes sense, I have heard it referred to as “elfin faces syndrome” before.
Personally as an autistic fairy I love learning about mythologised history of neuro divergence, would greatly enjoy any relevant reading material. I know it’s not everyone’s thing though, I have an autistic friend for whom the idea of not being properly human is triggering for “doesn’t really deserve human rights” fears
I only learnt that a month or two ago! One of those things where I knew the folk stories but hadn’t made the connection – but it does make a lot of sense.
Pff. The only ones with no souls are the empty freaks who go around accusing making life harder for others because they’ve only read one book and have terrible reading comprehension skills. Y”know that whole “Without God, people would have no morals” thing, the one that tells you that there’s nothing going on behind some people’s eyes, the moment they say it. They’re really good at pointing fingers though.
Yeah it doesn’t help the case that figures like Mother Teresa viewed people as “empty spaces waiting to be filled by God”, mirrored rather eerily in the way Franciscan Priests treated native tribes in Mexico.
But yeah “soul” is really just a metaphor that humans use to “explain” the phenomena of consciousness, and I could go on for hours about the ways non-Christian cultures throughout time were a lot more nuanced and generous with the concept, but alas, why tempt myself? Neuro-fluid!!!!
Stoned off my ass, mostly. Watched through Steven Universe Future and the only take-away is that Lapis Lazuli is hot and also that they sure wasted a lot of story opportunities in favor of relentless emotional constipation from the male lead.
Any excuse to eat brownies is A+. Even people who can’t eat the usual ingredients find ways to make some kind of brownies. That’s how sloppy joes were invented, even.
It’s not even necessarily the Bad Evil Stereotypes about neurodivergence here. Like, I went through a similar process early in my ADHD diagnosis. In my case it was less a matter of negative stereotypes, and more a matter of “wait, THAT’S a symptom? And THAT’S a symptom? HOW MUCH OF MY PERSONALITY IS SYMPTOMS?” It wasn’t so much horror at the idea of being ADHD, it was reevaluating what I knew of myself in the light of new information and being overwhelmed. Like, this thing I thought was something EVERYBODY did, nope, ADHD symptom. This other thing I assumed was just a personal quirk that ONLY I did, nope, ADHD symptom. IS IT JUST SYMPTOMS ALL THE WAY DOWN? There was a bit of an existential crisis where I briefly felt like just a pile of symptoms in a trenchcoat.
That spiral where you paint over more and more of your uniqueness with a single brushstroke, more and more of your personality is attributed to a “disorder” that needs to be “corrected”, just DREADFUL.
I think she’s probably doing what Dorothy was and googling autism, pre-diagnosis and projecting that onto herself. Joyce may eventually get diagnosed as autistic, but it doesn’t mean all the signs and characteristics of it will apply to her. This is actually a rookie mistake a lot of people make when they discover they may have something, anything new about themselves they didn’t know for years.
Misconception is one way of putting it. But the belief that we neurodivergents can’t “really” understand things or feel emotions, what do you call that?
Right… but I did choose the word “misconceptions” intentionally, because, frankly, I think this comment section has had enough games of “who’s the real ableist this week,” and I’d prefer we talk about this topic in terms of what the characters need to learn or unlearn, not in terms of moral judgement, which terms like “bigotry” do inherently carry.
Nah, it is morally right and good to ascribe intentional malice to everything Joyce does or says and pretend she’s never suffered a minute in her life, she is forever the Worst Villain and must be treated as such /s
It’s not really about moral judgement, as much as it’s about just how URGENT it is to get people to unlearn these views because of the damage they cause, including the awful self-loathing which Joyce is now experiencing, neurodivergent or not.
I hope this second attempt at contributing to this thread goes well. I kept it compact, and hopefully not too tangential and hope it doesn’t trigger anyone. If it does, I’m sorry in advance, please be gentle.
Not entirely inaccurate. My emotions are oddly orthogonal to neurotypicals, and while with practice I can understand the emotional systems they describe, I don’t experience them anywhere near the same way.
By the same token, people can’t understand what the hell I’m taking about half the time, and only with being able to execute complex operations they find difficult to wrap their heads around do they know I’m not a babbling idiot. I had the benefit of a fairly understanding culture, with parents who encouraged introspection and professional resources, and it still took me until 28 or so to become comfortable in my inherent alienation from my fellow man.
I can easily imagine anyone in a less privileged position being considered unable to understand or relate, and not having the resources to overcome the hurdles that causes, actually not being able to understand or relate.
Yep. Joyce is such an intersection of intentional (by her parent sand her church) miseducation and misinformation that I’m kind of shocked she hasn’t just had a total breakdown with the near daily realities that push against her institutionalized beliefs.
Honestly good for her. I hope her friends help her through the knee-jerk to the information, but I worry she’ll be on her own.
Totes with you on this one Nova, at least regarding how she surprisingly hasn’t experienced a total mental breakdown so far.
Joyce is really vulnerable right now, and I just hope her friends dont pressure her into accepting help and give her the much needed room for tangling herself. She’s already been denied the room for her growing pains re:atheism, and now she needs that growing room, that safe space more than ever.
Oh I thought that page had a contact form but it looks like it doesn’t . I’ll keep an eye out for your comments as you get further along in the process though. I’m here every day
Oh hey I can do the VA stuff. I don’t really know how to get in contact with you for that? Also my microphone quality is pretty low unless I get a new one, but if it’s me or nothing– I can do proficient work. :3
I wouldn’t really be interested in doing NSFW DoA work but “mildly suggestive,” might be fine.
does discretely filling an empty water bottle from the soda fountain count? 8D; (i doubt ppl get paid enough there to care) , or sometimes the coffee/mixing multiple flavors lol
the pizza is surprisingly good, not over the top amazing, and racetrack’s is a bit better but good for a single slice lol
We know you are doing that, you arent discreet at all ( Soda machine makes a noise when it goes off) It’s just not worth the risk of you going hostle when we call you out for it.
i mean i still do pay for a cup, i just take a bit extra in an empty water bottle lol
sincei ‘m sure there’s some spills or ppl just drinking some of it before refilling it and paying for it anyways. tho with slurpees even if i pour slowly it ends up being like half ice/air bubbles so it’s better to just get a regular soda unless you like a specific flavor/want the coldness and can drink it fast enough haha
Do they have the F’Real Milkshakes in 7/11? They’ve got one at the local convenience store I work at, and it’s probably my favorite thing to get there. (Well, aside from the fried chicken and the baked-in-store cookies, but I’m pretty confident they don’t have those at 7/11.)
winnipeg is known for having the best 711 slurpees and sometimes I forget there are reasons to go to 711 other than to get a slurpee bc I literally never see anyone leave a 711 without a slurpee. I’ve gotten off the bus a kilometre from my house in winter and walked home just to get a pepsi slurpee on the way
and then I go to a 711 in the US and forget where I am and get a slurpee and,,, they’re usually kinda meh
My favorite thing from 7/11 are the wings, specifically the spicy wings (not to be confused with the buffalo wings which are also good), followed by the glazed double donut (because I’m a fat guy and that’s my favorite fat guy treat).
So Sarah is not only being shitty directly to Joyce during what’s arguably the single-most difficult time of her life, she’s now gatekeeping people who want to help?
Mike really did infect the rest of the cast with his useless shittiness.
Mike would have outted the sex secret by now but I don’t think he would have taunted Joyce for being autistic only because everyone else has already pestered her about it.
To be fair, people showing up who are frequently insufferable on purpose is pretty tiring when you’re going through an upheaval of any sort.
Especially if they’re deliberately condescending to those they see as lesser on the social ladder and you’re definitely included under that.
Sarah cares about keeping Joyce safe*. Jennifer, for all that she does have her good points, has a lot of flaws. It’s reasonable for Sarah to use roommate status to keep people she thinks will make Joyce’s situation worse away if Joyce isn’t up to making those decisions herself(which, atm, she does not seem to be). While I agree that Jennifer would probably be good here, Sarah has a different perspective on her and is fair to err on the side of “if Joyce wants your help, she can ask you for it”.
*Probably not the exact word, but close enough for 10 min before bed.
Also Jennifer is if I remember correctly partially responsible (or willingly irresponsible) for the party incident that Sarah had to rescue Joyce from.
She’s only responsible if you consider it her job to babysit Joyce, a person she’d met like five seconds ago, at a party she was only going to so she could get wasted and possibly laid. She didn’t make Ryan slip Joyce a mickey, but she did happen to have knowledge of what it looked like and how to handle it. So if anything, I’d say they’re lucky she went along, but I wouldn’t say it was her fault by any stretch.
Dorothy and Joyce already planned to go to the party. Jennifer invited herself along when she heard them talking about it, partially ditched them to go drink as they arrived (she briefly came back around), but became extremely helpful once she realized something bad had gone down.
Jennifer was in no way even tangentially responsible for what happened to Joyce.
Uh…what are the odds that Jennifer, known stereotyper and nerd hater, would actually be helpful in this situation? I’m putting them somewhere between 0 and negative a billion.
Deathjavu, you’re not wrong but that’s Joyce’s choice. She knows Jennifer is/was like that. Sarah shouldn’t be saying “don’t come in, I don’t want Joyce to talk to you,” she should be saying, “Joyce, are you up to dealing with Jennifer” (rude but is giving the choice to JOYCE, not just making it for her).
Pretty sure Joyce asked everyone to go away and let her sleep within the last 10 minutes or so. Granted, she’s not sleeping, but that doesn’t negate the part where she wanted people to go away.
It’s even worse. With the possible exception of Dina, there’s just about nobody there who can help Joyce through her particular situation.
Being abused emotionally and physically is one thing.
Finding out you’re “autistic” is another.
But having experienced BOTH of those? Being abused AND knowing you’re “autistic” has a REALLY heavy impact on a person that’s extremely hard not to overstate, and I sure hope that fact is realistically reflected in the story moving forward.
Sorry, kind of a force of habit of mine. I just want to emphasize (mostly to myself?) that the way we talk about “autism” here in this really progressive community, where it’s intrinsically allowed to be a very fluid thing and have nobody make hurtful assumptions about it, is NOTHING like the “autism” spoken of in the world at large.
I don’t think I’d ever be able to comfortably identify as “autistic” anywhere but here, given the horrible persecution we still face out there. It’d be like putting a target on my back after I had worked so hard to remove it
Something that strikes me about the style of putting a “diagnosis” or “trait” in “scare quotes” is how (to me) it “delegitimizes” the people who do use the term as a “label” they “choose” or to signify it as a part of their own “identity.” For example, I have a close relative that thinks that nobody can really be “trans,” and puts terms like “transgender” and “hormone therapy” and “gender identity” in scare quotes to communicate his doubt and prejudice.
I know you’re using “quotes” to emphasize the dissonance in the myriad of “definitions” that the word “autism” could invoke, and I know there’s no malicious intent behind it. Regardless, it reads to me like you’re using “autism” as a “euphemism” for something else. Like by putting “autism” in quotes, you still have plausible deniability that you’re not really talking about autism “autism,” and even if you were, the “autism” you are talking about is completely different from the autism they think you have. The quotes act as an insulator around a scary, “hurtful” word, a word that is “scary” and “hurtful” to you because of the way it has been “weaponized” against you; it’s a word that was “used” to justify terrible, “dehumanizing” treatment by the people closest to you, and that sucks.
BUT. Using the word “autism” (or just, ya know, autism) as shorthand to refer to a constellation of symptoms that an individual experiences in their life is, in and of itself, not harmful. I also recognize that using quotes around the word “autism” isn’t necessarily harmful either, even if it does grind my gears. Language is weird and diverse and some people “literally” use words in ways that don’t mean what they were originally intended to mean, which can make me quite chuffed.*
*Like, right here, do I mean “chuffed” annoyed or “chuffed” pleased? If the context doesn’t clear it up, it’s okay to ask for clarification. Sincerely asking questions about what the other person means or is trying to say is a way to facilitate healthy communication. People worth talking to will act in ways that increase understanding between y’all.
While we do hope that everyone will interpret one another’s comments in good faith and respond accordingly, this is, for the most part, a public forum. There’s a nonzero chance someone could (or /will/ tbh) comment something ignorant or hurtful or offensive, or, dare I say it?, a really bad take. (yeowch!) Somebody might still make a hurtful assumption about what you mean when you say autism (or “autism” as you prefer). Luckily, you get to choose if that’s a risk you’re willing to take, and if so, what to do should that situation arise. Like, you could choose to ask questions, or share a relevant experience from your life, or disengage from the conversation, just to offer a few options.
Perhaps another choice of words would faciltate getting away from how the words were used to hurt you, while still allowing you to avoid hurting. Joyce seems to have autistic traits, Perhaps she’s on the spectrum. In the end she might not get a ‘formal diagnosis’, yet still be a cousin to autism who can benefit from some of the same help. Certainly, she’s already suffering some of the same harms from stereotypes. T_T
Alright then, since the quotation thing is deemed rude no matter what my intentions are, would anyone like to offer some advice on this?
What could I write instead of the quotes to emphasize the fact that the label is spoken of and treated very differently in the world at large to the point to which it might as well be another concept entirely?
BTW thank you spriteless, very productive way of thinking there.
I may not be the best at reading social cues, but I can tell you’re really frustrated with my comments, and I’m sorry. Honestly I am too.
I’ll definitely feel the need to overcompensate in my writing to separate myself from the hurtful baggage that’s everywhere and emphasize that not all autisms*** are the same, but at the same time don’t want to trigger others.
***definitions, connotations and bigoted attitudes surrounding this concept/word will vary tremendously depending on who you talk to and where you live in the world. Evoke and identify with it at your own risk.
(I hope this new attempt is less triggering. If it is not, sorry in advance.)
Well, it’s an extra word, but you could always add a word describing what part of the extremely loaded word:
Autistic diagnosis leads to autistic stereotypes hurting the vulnerable. Though ableist allistics would have you think ‘autism disorder’ is a bad thing, there are benefits that bigotry blinds them to: autistic perspective comes with less preconceived notions and is more evidence based, and often more moral. If a person has had to work extra hard to learn to communicate, when they do speak it’s often more profound than the small talk you get from most.
Not that I think a person’s value should depend on such things. My sister is, ahh, I think of her as differently verbal, because she can quote MLP for hours but otherwise sticks to a few dozen sentences with nouns she swaps out. And that is no excuse to be mean to her.
Well I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s all but confirmed that she has autism. I’m not making this assumption from the text, but rather, the context.
Willis has said on multiple occasions that Joyce’s character is semi-autobiographical, so it stands to reason that something this major in Joyce’s life would be an echo of his own. He’s also said before in a Tumblr post that Dina’s personality was based on himself, and that when folks pointed out that Dina showed characteristics of autism, Willis believed that he himself may also possess some sort of neurodivergency, albeit undiagnosed. And now, years later, Joyce, the semi-autobiographical author insert comes out and says that she got a referral to get an autism diagnosis, accompanied with an alt-text to the effect of “don’t act like you were surprised.” I think the pieces fit, at least based on context.
Now, I could be wrong. Maybe neither Joyce doesn’t have autism, irrespective of whether Willis does or doesn’t. Hell, maybe Willis was diagnosed neurotypical; who’s to say, none of us know the man personally. But just based on the context we have for the comic and inspiration for Joyce’s character, I think us as readers assuming Joyce has autism is not an unfair assumption to make.
I think its more that Sarah is, correctly, recognizing that Joyce is in no condition to be dealing with other people right now, and that since Jennifer is completely in the dark about what’s causing Joyce’s angst, and that her becoming aware of it would kinda be a big deal for Joyce, This Is Not The Time.
The groundwork for these two disliking each other was there from the very start. I think the most we ever saw them get along was hosing down Dorothy and Walky after they fell asleep in Joyce’s bed, then woke up and started making out.
I read this comic every day, and i can’t parse that look on Billie’s face, nor can i tell if Joyce is upset about her autism diagnosis or her religious upbringing here. Can anyone else tell?
It’s a Jennifer realizing she had expected to jump into the shallow end of the issues pool, but now finds herself on the high dive board needing a 9.5 score to keep in the competition.
Also, should we start calling her Binnifer instead of B_Jennifer?
Hey Sarah. Hey. Joyce can make her own decisions about who she wants to be around. ASK HER if she wants to speak with Jennifer. The answer might surprise you, because Jennifer has been the only genuinely helpful non-Joe/non-Walky in Joyce’s orbit lately. (Yes offense.)
I don’t really think that’s a fair assessment that “nobody but Jennifer has been helpful”.
After all, since the time skip, Dorothy has helped Joyce with her vision (which might help with both her classes, and her agoraphobia), researched the cartoon writing contest, and encouraged her to make amends with Becky. She also offered to take Joyce to the doctor to deal with her medical issue (even if Jennifer was the one who ultimately went with her).
I said ‘lately’. The glasses are too far in my RL rear view to count, and the comics writing thing is fully something Joyce could have and would have researched on her own.
Dorothy did not encourage Joyce to mend fences with Becky, she ordered Joyce to apologize because Becky was sad. I have very long rants about this which I will not type again, but suffice to say that was Dorothy groveling to Poor Becky’s Tender Feelings When Eavesdropping Did Not Work Out Well and not being any kind of friend to Joyce IMO.
Finally, I 100% don’t include Dorothy telling Jennifer ‘oh, I’ll make an appointment, I have all Joyce’s info’ as any kind of offer to Joyce, seeing as how Joyce was not addressed in any way. Also, Dorothy had literally just finished sniggering with Becky about how Joyce was just a super stupid puppy who couldn’t possibly take pills even with peanut butter tricks, and couldn’t possibly be willing to go to the doctor anyway so why bother.
Calling Dorothy’s recent run of treating Joyce more like a toddler or a Job To Do ‘helpful’ will cut zero mustard with me. She falls quite short of the three people who have treated Joyce like a full person worthy of respect recently.
Dorothy’s MO is to line everything up for you, drag you through the process, then go “see, isn’t that better?” at the end and bask in her alleged good-deed-doing.
I feel like you’re not really getting that most people aren’t that skilled at researching stuff and it’s actually difficult, time consuming, and tiring for people who aren’t that skilled at it…? And the glasses thing took a lot of emotional support and encouragement from both Dorothy and Becky… Also, Dorothy is friends with Becky, too, not just Joyce.
I feel that Dorothy’s priority was getting things to work out with Becky moreso than making sure that it felt 100% fair… and I appreciate that she didn’t coddle it when Joyce was acting like a jerk? It is mean to talk poorly about someone behind their back! Especially making someone who wants to be a scientist feel stupid. 🥺 Also, becky wasn’t Eve’s dropping, she just happened to walk in.
Still, I see your points and agree with them besides that. The way that she helps can be very flawed in ways that this storyline is hopefully going to address. Have a great day!
The terribleness of Sarah trying to gatekeep people helping and everyone else “helping” the situation is getting hard to parse. Can I just say, no one ACTUALLY hates anyone else here, comments or characters, despite appearances. But this whole situation is difficult to settle on a personal level so everyone needs to maybe take a few extra moments before laying out their words. This also took me a good little bit to write out.
Ouch, Sarah. Unless Joyce *asked* you to be her watchdog, you need to back off. It’s not your business to decide who goes to talk to her.
And meanwhile, Jennifer, it’s not your business to stand over her while she takes her pills either. You BOTH need to leave her alone until and unless she asks for your help.
I don’t think Jennifer wants to stand over Joyce and make her take pills. I think by “helping her with medication,” Jennifer meant, “helping her come to terms with the situaiton and wrap her head around it. Helping her think of what questions she wanted to learn more about, w/r/t how the medication worked and how it would affect her.” A support that Ruth also likely needed.
Joyce has leaned on Sarah multiple times in the past as a guard dog for when she’s in emotional turmoil, and only ever responded positively to it. While I don’t think Joyce has ever explicitly asked her to do it, that she’s so comfortable and welcoming of it puts Sarah in the right to do it here.
Also, see Joyce’s outburst there, odds are Sara’s probably right on the money…
I agree she shouldn’t be keeping people from hanging out with Joyce, but this IS Sarah’s room. She also gets a veto over who can come inside, not just Joyce.
Why the hell do so many people seem to think Jennifer should just have blanket permission to come into Joyce’s room unless explicitly denied, when the lights are off and Joyce closed the door in people’s faces 10 minutes ago? Door’s closed for a fucking reason. I don’t get it. Some bad takes today.
I wanna be clear, when I said above that Sarah shouldn’t be able to block Jennifer, I meant based on not wanting Joyce to see her. She’s allowed to say ‘I don’t want you in the room,’ I just don’t think she can try to specifically keep her from reaching Joyce.
(to clarify: ” don’t think she can try to specifically keep her from reaching Joyce.” UNLESS Joyce actually requested that. I’m fine with ‘I don’t want you in our room,’ and ‘Joyce doesn’t want you in our room,’ I’m not fine with ‘you can’t see Joyce because I forbid it.’
Re-reading my comment, I wonder if there’s an aspect of “if I’d kept Dana’s friends from bothering her in the dorm room, she would have had the time to get better” or something
The problem is that Sarah made the denial of entry all about her and what she wants. Twice, actually. In both panels 1 and 3 Sarah makes clear that she doesn’t want Jennifer around Joyce, with no reference to what Joyce wants.
It’s not until panel 5 that she makes a reference to Joyce’s needs. And even that is doing a terrible job of passing on relevant information, because she makes an extremely vague allusion to everything Joyce is processing, rather than saying “Just a moment ago Joyce explicitly asked that everyone leave her alone so she could rest. Please try back later.”
In this case, it’s the very person who helped Joyce with he medical issues and it’s usually not out of the norm for such a person to come back and check if everything is okay.
If Joyce trusted her in the first place to accompany her to the doctor, I think an explicit denial is reasonable before trying to forbid Jen to see her right after.
Yeah, that. Jennifer’s not just showing up out of nowhere. She encouraged and accompanied Joyce on an emotionally heavy medical appointment while Joyce was in a tremendous amount of pain just this morning. It’s totally reasonable for her to come check in on her a few hours later to see how she’s doing and offer more support.
That said, it’s possible Sarah doesn’t realize the extent to which Jennifer is already involved? She wasn’t there when Jennifer announced her intention to “fix this” and I haven’t seen Jennifer’s name explicitly come up in Sarah’s presence since they got out of class. Sarah’s been there for the autism thing, but missed all the earlier hand-wringing about how Joyce might react to being prescribed birth control; Jennifer got all the birth control stuff, and has no idea about the autism referral. They’re coming at this from different perspectives about Joyce’s immediate emotional needs. No one’s a villain here (I say, in a strip in which two people are being openly antagonistic with one another).
So, who the fuck does Sarah even fucking think she is, to control who the fuck Joyce sees?
The proper response, Sarah, is: “Yes, of course you can see Joyce, and thank you for helping her, btw.”
The asshole Sarah can just go fuck herself. I don’t know why Willis determined to turn her into such a fucking asshole over the last couple strips, but it’s really really tiresome.
…the person that Joyce has trusted to control who the fuck gets to interact with Joyce on multiple occasions in the past when Joyce was feeling emotionally and mentally exhausted.
I mean, the correct response would be “…look, now’s not a good time, Joyce is going through some shit…” because… well, see the last panel. What exactly about that screams “Joyce is in a great place to interact with any human being whatsoever”?
Sarah’s words were “I don’t want you around Joyce.”
If Joyce has ever given Sarah that authority to control who interacts with Joyce, I don’t remember it happening, but if it has indeed happened, obviously my previous reaction to the strip was wrong and based on my faulty memory.
Phones exist. A door and a roommate cannot stop people from interacting if they want to do so. Hence, a reasonable assumption that Joyce does not want to do so.
Doors also exist. If Joyce didn’t want to see Jennifer, Sarah would have startedvwith that instead of going on and on about her own wants of which people Sarah wants to allow to see Joyce.
Thererefore she’s a fucking asshole, There your fucking self-evident logical argumemt which works far better than “phones exist therefore Joyce approves of whst Sarah is doing.” You’ve lost credibility that you actually believe what you are saying given the non-sequitur insanity of your ‘argument’
yeah, you’re right. that’s not why I patreon and I apologize. I would flag my own comment if that button existed this far down the thread, but it doesn’t appear to.
taffy, deathjavu is not arguing in good faith, as seen by the argument “The technological existence of phones proves that Joyce wants Sarah to prevent people from seeing her.”
That’s basically trying to pull a Chewbacca defense, where you say the most insane thing possible to defend an arbitrary claim. If phones exist, then obviously Joyce doesn’t want to speak to Jennifer. Defend THAT insanity.
Maybe Sarah thinks she also lives in that room and can allow or deny access based on that alone? Even before we get into the question of whether or not it’s a good idea? (it’s not)
She’s explicitly denying access to Joyce, because she doesn’t want Jennifer talking to Joyce. In that alternate fictional reality universe where she speaks instead about not wanting Jennifer in her room, she’s slightly less of an asshole, but it’s an alteŕnate fictional reality, not what we saw.
Sarah is Joyce’s substitute big sister, whom Joyce trusts to be around her during her worst crises.
I don’t think she’s making the right decision here keeping Jennifer away, but not because “SHE HAS NO RIGHT”, I just use my audience knowledge to surmise Jennifer might be more helpful here than Sarah expects her to be.
Sarah can be controlling especially when she thinks she’s in the right. I think the profanity is too extreme, but Sarah isn’t going to be winning any awards for social niceties.
Billiardball Morebucks doesn’t like being around them because they know about her various fuckups, so she swapped rooms with Malaya as a sort of soft reboot on college? And she’s generally abrasive enough that they don’t really hang out with her if other options are available? I don’t think it was any one specific incident, is all I mean.
They’re the loser nerd safety net that caught her after her mighty fall from grace after high school. Her Haughtiness saw an opportunity to climb the social ladder again, and since she’s not tied to Ruth anymore she stepped all over them to reach it.
Didn’t she mostly hang around out of proximity, like walking from the dorm to math? And now that she’s in another dorm she’s going to run into everyone less. Plus it was implied that she felt pigeonholed in her old role within the old group.
She’s a ball of drama, substance abuse issues and toxic coping methods combined with a desperate desire for validation from those she deems popular. While Joyce and her friend group are better for her emotionally they are also the kinds of people she considers pretty near the bottom of her perceived social hierarchy. Sarah has her pegged as both undesired trouble and a potential toxic influence on Joyce.
Also I apologise, I accidently flagged your comment by accident and there’s no way to unflag it.
One thing people are forgetting: ITS A DORM ROOM. Joyce can see and hear everything that’s going on between Sarah and Jennifer. If Joyce is ignoring or not noticing that, it’s a good sign she’s not in a mental space to visit with people.
They do have delicious gyros. I’m not sure why they’re so good, but I have passed up actual dedicated gyro joints for Arby’s gyros. (One of said gyro joints has amazing tacos though.)
They have a wagyu* steakhouse burger that they cook using the sous vide method (hence it being pink in the middle, but still actually cooked all the way through) until July 31.
*made with 48% ground beef and 52% American wagyu, which is itself not true wagyu, as the beef comes from North American cattle breeds crossed with Japanese wagyu, but still pretty tasty
Ayup. That and, “Everything I dislike about myself and want to change is the result of my condition. Therefore, I am doomed never to change.” (Yuck face.)
Given how little we know about the brain, we can never know whether or not those things could be changed for any person. But to accept automatically that that I’ll never be able to change what I don’t like about myself? That sounds rather gloomy to me, I don’t like it at all.
It’s why I like being neuro-fluid, just giving myself room to flow between the worlds of neurodivergence the same way I explore gender-worlds as someone who’s gender-fluid, to see what my brain can do once I feel up to it, you know?
“coming to terms with”, something always iffed me about that phrase when it comes to this, namely down to handling it like a “professional” diagnosis describes a tangible, exact and undeniable reality, were in actuality the best doctors can do is no better than a blind guess. With or without a diagnosis untangling your own unique stripes as a neurodivergent is a very personal journey where nobody can at all claim to know your own brain better than you do.
IMO the only things a “professional” diagnosis is really good for is getting medication medleys and also for shaking money out of a government to make ends meet in a capitalist system that’s unstable to begin with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, in that case, “coming to term with” is the perfect verb. When parties come to terms, they negotiate. They haggle. And they get the best deal they can.
That’s one way to approach a diagnostic conversation: “What is the most effective help and support for my specific needs that your professional gatekeeping can help me to arrange? ‘Make me an offer.'” ;-D
Professional Gate-keeping is much more oppressive than people think it is.
Between Dina getting denied her desired “professional” diagnosis and my getting denied a “professional” PTSD diagnosis after countless wasted hours, really says something about this system still affected by bigotry and bourgeois bias of all kinds.
It’s worth the time to just know when to say fuck it, because it’s all too easy to get trapped in an endless loop where you’re seeking acknowledgement from a system that’s deliberately set up to oppress and enable oppression. If you value “professionals'” respect too much, you give them a hold over you. When you turn the focus in the other direction, to your own self-respect and self-acknowledgement, there is often a natural, much needed shift.
What ever happened to Mary? She drop out? Get hitched? Get woke and decided to reevaluate herself? None of the above and I just forgot about her and so did Willis and now that I reminded him he’s gonna write her into the next comic and so she’ll show up in 8 months and it will be my fault my paranoia is running away from me
Oh don’t mind me, I just never liked Billie/Jennifer to begin with:
-bullies goth and is unapologetic about it
-bullies other people (in fact anyone who won’t answer strongly)
-not really fine with being the white-passing daughter but fine enough to accept gifts and not being supportive of Sal
-still play power games outside of bullying
-stink rich, the reason for people to have been oppressed and never did anything against it
-gives cash for offenses
pros: listen sometimes (well if it’s not too long and she hasn’t time to get her own fiction of what is said camouflaging the words), knows about pill and pregnancy.
Basically, all the pros are covered by Roz, that does a better job of:
– inform people as a collective and not on a “I like you” basis
– checking privileges
Wow, that’s the most I ever wrote about the comic itself and not the reactions toward it. She must have hit some nerve, so yeah, probably I’m wrong as fuck and rambling.
But anyway, today’s strip has not much to do with why I don’t like her, it’s just a continuation. I hope she’ll get a better hang of values (because *my* values are universally good, and I shall impose them on every existing fictional character that exists).
If you gaze too deep into the comments, the comments will gaze back. Do not feel obligated to engage or even read if you suspect it’s not gonna be a good time.
I’ve been reading DoA for….I think as of this year officially 10 years? And the most important thing I’ve learned about the comments is that a lot of people here take understandable character flaws and perfectly ordinary character conflict extremely personally and make wide sweeping moral judgements of the fictional characters because of it.
I want to have deep discussions on craft and characterization as if the comic were being studied in a good English class. Alas, which female (never male) character trying her best (never the actual jerks) is the WORST for being human and realistic doesn’t really fit into that. The patriarchy, which I blame, is why we can’t have nice things.
I’m pretty sure a whole bunch of Jane Austen salon commenters were all about breaking china and flipping tables while discussing Emma’s failures.
I’m also pretty sure Tom Gauld made or will make a comic about this.
I mean, if people get infuriated, it’s because the characterization works somehow. Maybe not always in the authors’ sense (well, a pedant character in Huxley’s Those Barren Leaves said that people only read a small part of what si written anyway)?
I think Sarah is just blanket protective of Joyce at this point. She does not personally trust Jennifer for whatever reason (they dont seem like people who would mesh well, I don’t remember details) and I think at this point the list of people she WOULD allow into the room without Joyce’s explicit request is, like, 2 of them.
And neither Dorothy nor Becky would make the list, methinks.
I think Sarah pretty much immediately picked up on her ‘popular hot mess party girl’ vibes and she can’t stand that exact type of person in particular more so than others.
And Joyce was an innocent naive person who was also overly trusting. Hence, try to keep the person who could ‘corrupt’ her, far away. Especially when said corrupter at one point actually suggested it might be better if Joyce was more like her which no, as Jennifer was a toxic hot mess.
They have only ever had a limited number of times they have gotten along briefly over a shared goal.
Sarah’s just never liked Jennifer, dating back to when she was Billie. Pretty sure Billie was just the type of person that rubbed Sarah the wrongest way, and she expects the same of Jennifer.
Sarah is like Dina in this, but you can’t bribe her talking about dinosaurs. Joyce really needs to have some time alone, but this probably will not stop Jennifer and I want to see how this will influence her and her way to see about herself and her ability to help always and being a Problems solver.
I feel so much for Joyce right now, as someone who has had a really similar life trajectory. Adult discovery I’m autistic, raised in a hard right extremist group with fucked up beliefs on authority, gender, and sexuality, followed by rapidly getting my preconceived notions of how the world works and is disproven and subsequent deradicalization in uni. About the only thing that isn’t a 1:1 is my family weren’t fundagelical and I’m the oldest not the baby.
So, I get it kid.
I can say: this Joyce freak-out is I think about the possibility of autism but it’s also not about that. It’s about kind of everything?
By which I mean, when you go through a process of deradicalization, especially of you were raised in an extremist environment, there’s a whole lot of questioning the very basis of your understanding of reality and truth as concepts that goes on. If you’ve ever been in a bouncy castle, it’s kind of like trying to navigate one of those blindfolded and dizzy. For a while, every time you think you get your feet under you something else comes along to upset it. That stage does eventually pass but for me it was a solid 4 years before I felt like I had established a reliable grounding in reality and truth.
Then we add in that other extremist groups actively look for people in that mindset, and it’s really common for someone to break free of one cult or extremist group only to fall into another. Because when you feel like reality has no foundation, it’s a horrible sense of just anxiety and distrust and constantly wondering what else you need to question, and another cult will be happy to slide in there with a new (equally fake and distorted but they’ll hide it from you) foundation you can just plop into your world view without having to do all that hard, messy, and anxiety provoking work of questioning reality and your values and building your own foundation. Luckily for me the groups that targeted me in that phase unintentionally reminded me a lot of the group I’d just left so I avoided that trap, but I honestly think it was luck. If it weren’t for the fact that they made the mistake of shunning and berating those who questioned the dogma before I’d fully bought in I probably would’ve been snagged.
Joyce is still at the beginning of that process, and frankly she’s probably going to feel worse before she feels better.
I couldn’t have said it better myself ischemgeek. So sorry you had to go through that, I’ve been there myself, and rebuilding reality itself from the ground up is one extraordinary undertaking, especially when it makes us prey in a kingdom of predators.
If there is one thing I could ever change about the human condition, it would be the ability to live something like a second childhood — like a sort of “reset button” for the brain, a chance to grow up all over again and build a reliable world-view, and know what fair treatment is like, and establish a sound sense of self and safety and stability and security that won’t be blown to smithereens, and create happy memories to look back on that aren’t attached to trauma.
It might sound fringe, but this comes from a really good place, out of compassion for those who’ve suffered abuse, trauma and indoctrination of all kinds. I believe everyone deserves a second chance to live a full, happy, healthy life free of anguish and resentment and illness.
Thank you ischemgeek. Really appreciate your writing here, every day. 🥲
You know, it’s entirely possible (though unlikely), given that Jennifer waited for Joyce to leave the doctor’s, that she already knows about the potential autism and simply didn’t share that information with Walky and Lucy.
The strip doesn’t read that way to me, but Jennifer does have a higher EQ than most of the main cast (at least when she’s not being at her worst).
So it could be she knows exactly what issue is troubling Joyce and came anyway.
I bet she knows about the BC prescription and that Joyce was referred to a specialist, but she might not know what kind of specialist. Joyce was guarded about that until she finally cracked in the hallway.
Not really?
No one asked her anything until the hallway, so she it’s not like she avoided answering questions.
She volunteered that she had a referral which everyone assumed was regarding her period/birth control.
The moment someone asked her what was bothering her vs assuming what was bothering her, she mentioned it in a matter of seconds.
So if Jennifer also asked instead of assuming, she could have been told as well.
I still doubt it, though.
If Joyce in the last panel is about her finding out she might be autistic, I can relate. Since I started to suspect last year, and after getting diagnosed earlier this year, I’ve felt kinda like this meme when I look back on my life so far.
I am really wishing for a few more automatic filters, like the one changing b**** to bongo. F*** could be “fork” or “frack” or “heck,” or something, s*** could be “sugar”, a**h*** could be “proctologist,” or “butt opening” or “pooper” or something less blatant. Would be nice. Relaxing. Remind us not to take the conversation too seriously.
So Jennifer has shown up to make sure Joyce will take her period meds properly and make sure she’s ok with the idea of it dish out advice adjusting. She thinks Sarah and the others let Joyce go through with a bunch of pain without pushing her to sort this issue.
Sarah knows Joyce has a referral for a different issue that is really shaking her up and that she needs a chance to sleep on this and get a little distance from her current pain so she can work out what to tell people on her own terms rather than just have all her information fall out all over the place in shock, like when she blurted it out to Dotty, Sarah and Dina and got a bunch of reverb from it.
Like Sarah wasn’t great in that conversation either but what Sarah says and how Sarah wishes she’d handled something immediately after seeing the results are often at odds.
Incredibly confused how so many people are mad at Jennifer in this specific scenario for “overstepping her bounds” when I feel like Sarah and Dorothy are *actually* the ones with boundary issues. No matter how Sarah feels for Joyce as her stand-in big sis, she doesn’t have the right to say “I don’t want you seeing her” to someone. Okay so she doesn’t like Jennifer, they never seemed to get along, but unless there’s some actual danger or issue at hand here idk why tf Sarah thinks she can say that. Also Dorothy is annoying as hell and needs to be brought down many MANY pegs.
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 1d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 1d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
confirming that the reason there's been no Galaxy Version female characters in Blokees until now is that they felt they needed to make Round Lady Thighs For Ladies
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 10h
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 1d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 1d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 11d
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“ok you know what, this actually is above my paygrade”
Actually, Jennifer’s also become regrettably amazingly adept at never understanding anything.
If nothing else, she still understands that Sal is Amazi-Girl!
Oh wait
Become? She’s always been amazing at it!
All this insidious bigotry that’s EVERYWHERE, all this stuff people believe about us neurodivergents that just isn’t true.
Joyce…. oh Joyce…. that insidious self-doubt, that AWFUL spiral of emotions, I know EXACTLY what she’s going through, and it’s horrible
HANG IN THERE FAM FAM!!!!
*plays “The Innocent Abandoned” by Overdawn on hacked muzak*
The neurodivergent closest to me (besides me) is a real life Joyce who refused to ever experience self doubt (and consequently growth) and is suddenly being crushed by realizations about the consequences of her actions.
Is this a common thing?
Yes.
Uh, are we even reading the same comic? I’m referring to the way she’s doubting her ability to understand things or feel real feelings on account of her being “autistic”.
I don’t know. I think, for us, self doubt (of our understanding of certain things) might be super important.
To be fair you can feel the same way (_doubting her ability to understand things or feel real feelings on account of her being “autistic”_) if you have certain personality dissorders. As a person diagnosed with the later and feeling just the same as you descrive, I would like to ask if the difference resides on the origin of these feeligs? I mean, my crippling self-doubt and dificulties with socializing and “understanding” many social behaviors comes from a “voice” in the back of my mind constantly questioning every decision I make, every scenario “I think I understand”, the intentions of every person I meet, etc. It is the narrative of this voice which often changes what I initially perceive more “correctly” that then loops and distorts everything. Is this how it works for you? Or did I misunderstand and what you meant was that this self-doubt is only result of the diagnosis and posterior “judgment” people go through after being “tagged” with autism?
“who refused to ever experience self doubt (and consequently growth) ”
…
This is a thing? People can refuse to feel doubt? about themselves???!!?
*eyes the NIFB*
Yes. Yes, they can.
NIFB?
You also get the joy of wondering if it is you not understanding social situations correctly that makes people treat you the way that they do, or if it’s them being jerks like you originally thought. You wonder if you were being rude or difficult to deal with without realizing that you were acting that way.
If you’re also a victim of abuse like Joyce, it all comes together to have a REALLY heavy effect on a person that cannot be overstated.
As good as my trust is in Willis’s skills as a writer, I sure hope this fact is reflected accurately in the way Joyce deals with this moving forward.
oh is this abt the autism thing? I thought it was the feect of medication. I had a crisis of identity when I took birth control because messing up your hormones can change how you feel abt everything and my brain was super duper confused and I started thinking like a completely different person. I tried a few different brand and each time it was like WHO AM I WHO IS THIS STRANGER THAT I WAS UNTIL YESTERDAY anyway I dropped the pills after a year of weird tests
Even if she’s started taking birth control, it’s been at most a few hours since she took the first pill. Not likely any noticeable hormonal effects yet.
Wellerman, I just want to say that I appreciate you a lot and you’re my favorite part of reading the comments section.
Seconded,
You’re a good, Wellerman.
Not the crisis you were expecting, maybe, Jennifer, but the one she’s having, nonetheless!
You deal with the crisis you got, not the crisis you wanted.
Jenny’s kind of insufferable lately.
She has been consistently kind of insufferable for large chunks of this comic’s run, I’d say it’s a core part of her characterr
Yeah, but it’s a new kind of insufferable so it hits fresh for people. I for one embrace Jennifer’s new sense of control and confidence even if it’s bordering on arrogance now. Pre-time skip she was really down on herself except for very brief moments.
Sarah has always treaded her like shit. Jen should ask her why she didn’t bring Joyce to the doctor and also to go fuck herself.
No gratitude for helping her ‘little sister’, and constant, unprovoked disrespect.
IDK, at some point you’re basically stepping over people’s agency and telling them what to do because you quote unquote know better and get shit done. Jennifer seems to be toeing that line a lot.
Jennifer is more than over the line. It’s also no coincidence that she’s doing this right after her talk with Walky.
EDIT: I realize I flagged your post. I did not mean to. I apologize.
Now she’s extra-determined to talk to Joyce, to prove to herself that she was right and she helped someone in a crisis situation and that they didn’t take one step forward and two steps back due to her guidance.
But this time, it was glaringly obvious that someone had to step up and give Joyce ‘the talk’. She is in a foul mood after running into Ruth, but as long as she respects Joyce’s boundaries, about something we all have reason to believe she knows nothing (and many lies) about, I’d say she’s being responsible. It’s up to Joyce to express those boundaries.
Unless ‘over the line’ meant disregarding Sarah’s judgment of who can and can’t talk to Joyce. Because that’s not Sarah’s call to make.
Jennifer is trying to bull her way into Sarah’s room against her wishes and said if she doesn’t like it she can leave. Her own room. And she doesn’t give a shit about Joyce. She just wants to be the “problem solver head cheerleader” again for herself and Joyce had a problem. That’s all. Sarah is in the right and Jennifer needs to fuck off and respect Sarah’s space and Joyce’s privacy. No one asked for her help with medication.
It’s Joyce’s room, too. Joyce and Jen seamed to connect during the visit. If Sarah doesn’t want one of Joyce’s friends there, she may leave.
Now if the Joyce turns her down, that’s different.
And the ‘waiting for Joyce after the appointment’ exchange with Walky suggests this is more than that.
If Sarah didn’t constantly throw unprovoked insults at Jennifer, I’d be more sympathetic.
Seriously- nobody is responsible for maintaining that self image
And yet, Dan, when all her friends were putting Joyce in the too hard basket Jennifer was the one who got her help. Sarah even went so far as to drag her around campus, thank god it wasn’t something potentially fatal. If I had to choose, it wouldn’t be Sarah.
1.) I don’t know that I buy the stopped clock defense here.
2.) Maybe the feminine name and trans flag avatar do not make it clear but I do not appreciate being called “Dan”.
In her defense, Jennifer is the only one in this arc who has done anything at all that actually helped Joyce.
She never Sked Joyce if she wanted help. She just told her what to do and dragged her off. Joyce needed help, but Jennifer just wanted to control, much like now.
That’s not what happened, though?
She…literally did ask, though. And Joyce said sure? Like. C’mon.
Are you somehow confusing Jennifer with Dorothy in the “Joyce needs glasses arc”?
[citation needed]
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/crampy/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/appointment-2/
Meet Insufferable Jennifer. It’s like Insufferable Billie, only more insufferable!!
lately ? lmao no i get what you mean. it’s worse than the first semester
This is probably a possible looming autism diagnosis thing, but I want to believe she heard about Becky and Dina smashing.
Yeah, that was my first impulse.
Plot twist: this has nothing to do with Joyce’s possible autism. She just watched Twin Peaks, and this is the natural reaction.
Every time I think about Twin Peaks, I still get a little mad at myself for believing it would get better for so long ;-; (according to my tastes, anyway; I know there’s a lot of people who enjoyed it).
The main problem with twin peaks isn’t hermetic symbolism or whatever we’ve shown as advancing sort of the plot. It’s the basic refusal of Lynch to care about any POC character to the point his depiction of an all-white community with token POCs (native and asian) as doomful and anxiety-inducing falls flat.
The “Dual Spires” parody episode of Psych was a lot more fun.
Uhhhh.
Is this emotional trauma over the cult thing, or she heard Carla yelling about the pre-marital hanky panky, or the autism thing, or
I’m gonna say it’s the autism thing. Considering the emotionless stereotype, I imagine there’s a lot of ugliness she’s learned running through Joyce’s head right now.
She was probably brought up with the “no soul” thing, hence why she said it to Dina.
“No soul”? What? WHAT? WHAT!?
…What is this?
Sorry, sorry. Sorry for the all caps. Feel free to flag. Just caught me off-guard there.
Oh, never knew about that one, I see.
Fun fact: The concept of “Changelings” being fae children that were swapped in for regular children, usually in the first two years or so, who grew up strange and vaguely foreign, with strange mannerisms, weird emotional systems, strangely intelligent, and lacking in human social graces, tracks heavily with autism, in which symptoms begin to present at 12-18 months. Sometimes “changeling” children were left in the woods for the fae to take back.
As to “no soul”, flat affect was the cause for that rumor.
I dunno, being a soulless marxist alien parasite…. that sounds like a conservative bigot’s worse nightmare!
But in all seriousness, does anyone here know of any non-Western concepts of “autism”?
Many ancient cultures and aboriginal tribes around the world have concepts for non-binary people like me and accepting them as equals. Surely there are cultures out there with good words and comfortable places for neurodivergents too?
If so, I REALLY want to know.
Do you think the mentats, in “Dune,” were supposed to be based on folks with autism or savant syndrome or another neurodivergence? Or possibly just highly trained concentrators?
I thought that the “fair folk” were communities with high prevalence of Williams Syndrome? Maybe both.
I don’t really feel comfortable making sweeping diagnoses of entire communities like that.
You’re right, of course, Jamie. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes, of course. How awful of me. I was just repeating what I had read a few different places, hypothesizing that Williams Syndrome was one of the factors that could have given rise to the legends of elves and faeries. I apologize for stereotyping. I should have been more nuanced.
I hadn’t heard that before but it makes sense, I have heard it referred to as “elfin faces syndrome” before.
Personally as an autistic fairy I love learning about mythologised history of neuro divergence, would greatly enjoy any relevant reading material. I know it’s not everyone’s thing though, I have an autistic friend for whom the idea of not being properly human is triggering for “doesn’t really deserve human rights” fears
I only learnt that a month or two ago! One of those things where I knew the folk stories but hadn’t made the connection – but it does make a lot of sense.
Pff. The only ones with no souls are the empty freaks who go around accusing making life harder for others because they’ve only read one book and have terrible reading comprehension skills. Y”know that whole “Without God, people would have no morals” thing, the one that tells you that there’s nothing going on behind some people’s eyes, the moment they say it. They’re really good at pointing fingers though.
Huh. Thought for sure I’d deleted that extra “accusing” there. Was gonna be a whole other sentence but I missed a spot.
Yeah it doesn’t help the case that figures like Mother Teresa viewed people as “empty spaces waiting to be filled by God”, mirrored rather eerily in the way Franciscan Priests treated native tribes in Mexico.
But yeah “soul” is really just a metaphor that humans use to “explain” the phenomena of consciousness, and I could go on for hours about the ways non-Christian cultures throughout time were a lot more nuanced and generous with the concept, but alas, why tempt myself? Neuro-fluid!!!!
BTW how are you Taffy?
Stoned off my ass, mostly. Watched through Steven Universe Future and the only take-away is that Lapis Lazuli is hot and also that they sure wasted a lot of story opportunities in favor of relentless emotional constipation from the male lead.
LOL
Funny you mention that, I just baked up a batch of pot brownies myself! Glad to know you’re enjoying yourself.
If you’re into high-octane story progression and cosmic mythic battles, might I recommend Maya and the Three? I just finished it, it’s THE BOMB!!! 🤩
Any excuse to eat brownies is A+. Even people who can’t eat the usual ingredients find ways to make some kind of brownies. That’s how sloppy joes were invented, even.
Dark Magician, eh?
I draw… Pot of Greed!
It’s not even necessarily the Bad Evil Stereotypes about neurodivergence here. Like, I went through a similar process early in my ADHD diagnosis. In my case it was less a matter of negative stereotypes, and more a matter of “wait, THAT’S a symptom? And THAT’S a symptom? HOW MUCH OF MY PERSONALITY IS SYMPTOMS?” It wasn’t so much horror at the idea of being ADHD, it was reevaluating what I knew of myself in the light of new information and being overwhelmed. Like, this thing I thought was something EVERYBODY did, nope, ADHD symptom. This other thing I assumed was just a personal quirk that ONLY I did, nope, ADHD symptom. IS IT JUST SYMPTOMS ALL THE WAY DOWN? There was a bit of an existential crisis where I briefly felt like just a pile of symptoms in a trenchcoat.
Oh my god…. I know how you feel.
That spiral where you paint over more and more of your uniqueness with a single brushstroke, more and more of your personality is attributed to a “disorder” that needs to be “corrected”, just DREADFUL.
*offers internet hug*
I don’t want to think that way ever again.
I think she’s probably doing what Dorothy was and googling autism, pre-diagnosis and projecting that onto herself. Joyce may eventually get diagnosed as autistic, but it doesn’t mean all the signs and characteristics of it will apply to her. This is actually a rookie mistake a lot of people make when they discover they may have something, anything new about themselves they didn’t know for years.
(gah stupid flag text sorry)
My guess is that it’s all of the above, piling on her back to back to back to back. Also, don’t forget about the glasses.
And THERE’S the weird fundie-education-based misconceptions I’ve been expecting Joyce to have this whole arc.
Misconception is one way of putting it. But the belief that we neurodivergents can’t “really” understand things or feel emotions, what do you call that?
Dehumanizing.
Sorry if that was intended as a rhetorical question, but I figured the answer should be said.
Yes, that is one answer. “BIGOTRY” is also acceptable.
Right… but I did choose the word “misconceptions” intentionally, because, frankly, I think this comment section has had enough games of “who’s the real ableist this week,” and I’d prefer we talk about this topic in terms of what the characters need to learn or unlearn, not in terms of moral judgement, which terms like “bigotry” do inherently carry.
Nah, it is morally right and good to ascribe intentional malice to everything Joyce does or says and pretend she’s never suffered a minute in her life, she is forever the Worst Villain and must be treated as such /s
It’s not really about moral judgement, as much as it’s about just how URGENT it is to get people to unlearn these views because of the damage they cause, including the awful self-loathing which Joyce is now experiencing, neurodivergent or not.
I hope this second attempt at contributing to this thread goes well. I kept it compact, and hopefully not too tangential and hope it doesn’t trigger anyone. If it does, I’m sorry in advance, please be gentle.
Yeah, I’m really glad to see someone else saying this stuff besides myself.
Preach
(I agree)
Not entirely inaccurate. My emotions are oddly orthogonal to neurotypicals, and while with practice I can understand the emotional systems they describe, I don’t experience them anywhere near the same way.
By the same token, people can’t understand what the hell I’m taking about half the time, and only with being able to execute complex operations they find difficult to wrap their heads around do they know I’m not a babbling idiot. I had the benefit of a fairly understanding culture, with parents who encouraged introspection and professional resources, and it still took me until 28 or so to become comfortable in my inherent alienation from my fellow man.
I can easily imagine anyone in a less privileged position being considered unable to understand or relate, and not having the resources to overcome the hurdles that causes, actually not being able to understand or relate.
Yep. Joyce is such an intersection of intentional (by her parent sand her church) miseducation and misinformation that I’m kind of shocked she hasn’t just had a total breakdown with the near daily realities that push against her institutionalized beliefs.
Honestly good for her. I hope her friends help her through the knee-jerk to the information, but I worry she’ll be on her own.
Totes with you on this one Nova, at least regarding how she surprisingly hasn’t experienced a total mental breakdown so far.
Joyce is really vulnerable right now, and I just hope her friends dont pressure her into accepting help and give her the much needed room for tangling herself. She’s already been denied the room for her growing pains re:atheism, and now she needs that growing room, that safe space more than ever.
*UNtangling herself. hate typos
For those who want a break from HARD DISCUSSION:
1. What’s your favorite thing to get at a 7/11
2. Would any of you like to help me make my next DOA fan game? I need but two more ingredients to help me really get started.
1. I don’t think I have ever gotten anything from a 7/11.
2. I doubt I have them, but what two ingredients are you missing exactly?
Ingredients for starting DOA fan game:
1. Someone who can modify a 3D character model to look more like Dina. There will be a 18+ version, so lots of incentive there.
2. A voice actor who can do an impression of Beth Tezuka (Bravest Warriors) or Princess Bubblegum (Adventure Time).
Unfortunately, my doubts appear to have been well-founded.
Could i do voice acting? possibly.
Could i do those specific characters? No, sorry
That’s alright! I think I may very well be interested in hearing what you can do!
Do you have a Discord?
’cause I’ll need other kinds of voices for the cast too!
My name should link to my podcast site now, but I’m not really comfortable voicing 18+ or nsfw content.
Thank you Robbie!!!
The game is likely gonna push it into M for Mature territory, but not enough to give it an 18+ rating if that’s alright with you.
Oh I thought that page had a contact form but it looks like it doesn’t
. I’ll keep an eye out for your comments as you get further along in the process though. I’m here every day 
Excellent Robbie!
Oh hey I can do the VA stuff. I don’t really know how to get in contact with you for that? Also my microphone quality is pretty low unless I get a new one, but if it’s me or nothing– I can do proficient work. :3
I wouldn’t really be interested in doing NSFW DoA work but “mildly suggestive,” might be fine.
Click my name, and on my Newgrounds page you’ll find my Discord handle
does discretely filling an empty water bottle from the soda fountain count? 8D; (i doubt ppl get paid enough there to care) , or sometimes the coffee/mixing multiple flavors lol
the pizza is surprisingly good, not over the top amazing, and racetrack’s is a bit better but good for a single slice lol
We know you are doing that, you arent discreet at all ( Soda machine makes a noise when it goes off) It’s just not worth the risk of you going hostle when we call you out for it.
i mean i still do pay for a cup, i just take a bit extra in an empty water bottle lol
sincei ‘m sure there’s some spills or ppl just drinking some of it before refilling it and paying for it anyways. tho with slurpees even if i pour slowly it ends up being like half ice/air bubbles so it’s better to just get a regular soda unless you like a specific flavor/want the coldness and can drink it fast enough haha
Do they have the F’Real Milkshakes in 7/11? They’ve got one at the local convenience store I work at, and it’s probably my favorite thing to get there. (Well, aside from the fried chicken and the baked-in-store cookies, but I’m pretty confident they don’t have those at 7/11.)
1. Used to be a Slurpee, but a couple of days ago I got one and it messed up my stomach and I think I’ve gone off Slurpees.
2. Depends, what do you need? I’m terrible at coding and at art, but you never know.
Know of any Voice Actors who could do an impression of princess bubblegum?
1. Directions to the nearest Wawa.
2. Sorry. Don’t know how to do modeling.
Wawa FTW!
FTW could mean “For the Win” or also “F*** the World”, depending on what part of Philly you’re from.
Yeah WaWa!!!! What’s your favorite thing to get there?
Hot cheeseteak hoagies, of course!
…And to use the ATM.
…And to get SEPTA passes. (Waah! Bye-bye, tokens!)
I’ve only heard of Wawa through SleepyCast, but it sounds like a decent enough place to eat at 2am.
What is this SleepyCast you speak of, my alien comrade?
Podcast by a bunch of old Newgrounds animators/YouTubers/voice actors. It’s like talk radio except less racist.
winnipeg is known for having the best 711 slurpees and sometimes I forget there are reasons to go to 711 other than to get a slurpee bc I literally never see anyone leave a 711 without a slurpee. I’ve gotten off the bus a kilometre from my house in winter and walked home just to get a pepsi slurpee on the way
and then I go to a 711 in the US and forget where I am and get a slurpee and,,, they’re usually kinda meh
I haven’t had a slurpee in over 2 decades and I go to 7/11 all the time.
That said, I have been considering getting one, lately.
We walked to the 7-11 for snacks when we were kids. Mostly we got the slushes, but sometimes I got Rollo’s.
I once got a half-gallon of milk from a 7-11.
They have great hot dogs, and I put their salsa on mine. Nom nom nom.
Salsa and mustard on it, the BOMB
Lately, I’ve been digging the two sugar cookies for a buck they have by the registers.
My Paycheck
Oooo! you work there?
If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the weirdest thing that you’ve ever seen happen there? I’m bored, much like lots of people these days.
Graveyard, so it would be when 3 cops came to arrest a teenage runaway who locked herself in the bathroom for an hour.
I dont typically go to 7/11 so I am interpreting the question to mean “convenience store”
The one I go to has Caroline Reaper cheese curls that are really good
When I used to haunt the campus 7/11: a cheeseburger, or sometimes a chili dog, and a large Mountain Dew (haven’t been able to drink the stuff since).
1. Gasoline.
2. I have no time or artistic talent, sorry :\
My favorite thing from 7/11 are the wings, specifically the spicy wings (not to be confused with the buffalo wings which are also good), followed by the glazed double donut (because I’m a fat guy and that’s my favorite fat guy treat).
what is a 7/11?
A convenience store chain
So Sarah is not only being shitty directly to Joyce during what’s arguably the single-most difficult time of her life, she’s now gatekeeping people who want to help?
Mike really did infect the rest of the cast with his useless shittiness.
To be fair, none of them had too far to fall. Unlike Mike.
Ba-dum tsss
Too soon? (Not really)
Mike’s shittiness has tended to actually be more on the ‘Useful” side than the “Useless” side.
Mike served as a sink that soaked up much of the ambient shittiness, and now that he is gone, it is freefloating and attaching itself to other people.
Mike would have outted the sex secret by now but I don’t think he would have taunted Joyce for being autistic only because everyone else has already pestered her about it.
Yeah, I think in this situation Mike would have been “get off your high horse” shitty, not “kick you while you’re down” shitty.
To be fair, people showing up who are frequently insufferable on purpose is pretty tiring when you’re going through an upheaval of any sort.
Especially if they’re deliberately condescending to those they see as lesser on the social ladder and you’re definitely included under that.
Sarah cares about keeping Joyce safe*. Jennifer, for all that she does have her good points, has a lot of flaws. It’s reasonable for Sarah to use roommate status to keep people she thinks will make Joyce’s situation worse away if Joyce isn’t up to making those decisions herself(which, atm, she does not seem to be). While I agree that Jennifer would probably be good here, Sarah has a different perspective on her and is fair to err on the side of “if Joyce wants your help, she can ask you for it”.
*Probably not the exact word, but close enough for 10 min before bed.
Also Jennifer is if I remember correctly partially responsible (or willingly irresponsible) for the party incident that Sarah had to rescue Joyce from.
Jennifer is also partially responsible for Joyce getting medication for her periods and a reference to a specialist for a diagnosis for autism.
She’s only responsible if you consider it her job to babysit Joyce, a person she’d met like five seconds ago, at a party she was only going to so she could get wasted and possibly laid. She didn’t make Ryan slip Joyce a mickey, but she did happen to have knowledge of what it looked like and how to handle it. So if anything, I’d say they’re lucky she went along, but I wouldn’t say it was her fault by any stretch.
Dorothy and Joyce already planned to go to the party. Jennifer invited herself along when she heard them talking about it, partially ditched them to go drink as they arrived (she briefly came back around), but became extremely helpful once she realized something bad had gone down.
Jennifer was in no way even tangentially responsible for what happened to Joyce.
Uh…what are the odds that Jennifer, known stereotyper and nerd hater, would actually be helpful in this situation? I’m putting them somewhere between 0 and negative a billion.
Deathjavu, you’re not wrong but that’s Joyce’s choice. She knows Jennifer is/was like that. Sarah shouldn’t be saying “don’t come in, I don’t want Joyce to talk to you,” she should be saying, “Joyce, are you up to dealing with Jennifer” (rude but is giving the choice to JOYCE, not just making it for her).
Pretty sure Joyce asked everyone to go away and let her sleep within the last 10 minutes or so. Granted, she’s not sleeping, but that doesn’t negate the part where she wanted people to go away.
I might have missed that (also sorry Deathjavu and Willis I accidentally flagged this comment when I tried to click reply)
She’s acually a bit of a nerd herself, though. Part of being friends with Walky since Kindergarten.
Self-hating and in denial about her nerdery, which is pretty much par for the course for her.
Yyyyup.
(See also her orientation, her alcohol issues, her other issues that she is totally over now that she’s been to therapy, etc etc etc)
It’s even worse. With the possible exception of Dina, there’s just about nobody there who can help Joyce through her particular situation.
Being abused emotionally and physically is one thing.
Finding out you’re “autistic” is another.
But having experienced BOTH of those? Being abused AND knowing you’re “autistic” has a REALLY heavy impact on a person that’s extremely hard not to overstate, and I sure hope that fact is realistically reflected in the story moving forward.
I don’t think we need air quotes when it’s written into the story that it’s autism.
Sorry, kind of a force of habit of mine. I just want to emphasize (mostly to myself?) that the way we talk about “autism” here in this really progressive community, where it’s intrinsically allowed to be a very fluid thing and have nobody make hurtful assumptions about it, is NOTHING like the “autism” spoken of in the world at large.
I don’t think I’d ever be able to comfortably identify as “autistic” anywhere but here, given the horrible persecution we still face out there. It’d be like putting a target on my back after I had worked so hard to remove it
Something that strikes me about the style of putting a “diagnosis” or “trait” in “scare quotes” is how (to me) it “delegitimizes” the people who do use the term as a “label” they “choose” or to signify it as a part of their own “identity.” For example, I have a close relative that thinks that nobody can really be “trans,” and puts terms like “transgender” and “hormone therapy” and “gender identity” in scare quotes to communicate his doubt and prejudice.
I know you’re using “quotes” to emphasize the dissonance in the myriad of “definitions” that the word “autism” could invoke, and I know there’s no malicious intent behind it. Regardless, it reads to me like you’re using “autism” as a “euphemism” for something else. Like by putting “autism” in quotes, you still have plausible deniability that you’re not really talking about autism “autism,” and even if you were, the “autism” you are talking about is completely different from the autism they think you have. The quotes act as an insulator around a scary, “hurtful” word, a word that is “scary” and “hurtful” to you because of the way it has been “weaponized” against you; it’s a word that was “used” to justify terrible, “dehumanizing” treatment by the people closest to you, and that sucks.
BUT. Using the word “autism” (or just, ya know, autism) as shorthand to refer to a constellation of symptoms that an individual experiences in their life is, in and of itself, not harmful. I also recognize that using quotes around the word “autism” isn’t necessarily harmful either, even if it does grind my gears. Language is weird and diverse and some people “literally” use words in ways that don’t mean what they were originally intended to mean, which can make me quite chuffed.*
*Like, right here, do I mean “chuffed” annoyed or “chuffed” pleased? If the context doesn’t clear it up, it’s okay to ask for clarification. Sincerely asking questions about what the other person means or is trying to say is a way to facilitate healthy communication. People worth talking to will act in ways that increase understanding between y’all.
While we do hope that everyone will interpret one another’s comments in good faith and respond accordingly, this is, for the most part, a public forum. There’s a nonzero chance someone could (or /will/ tbh) comment something ignorant or hurtful or offensive, or, dare I say it?, a really bad take. (yeowch!) Somebody might still make a hurtful assumption about what you mean when you say autism (or “autism” as you prefer). Luckily, you get to choose if that’s a risk you’re willing to take, and if so, what to do should that situation arise. Like, you could choose to ask questions, or share a relevant experience from your life, or disengage from the conversation, just to offer a few options.
Perhaps another choice of words would faciltate getting away from how the words were used to hurt you, while still allowing you to avoid hurting. Joyce seems to have autistic traits, Perhaps she’s on the spectrum. In the end she might not get a ‘formal diagnosis’, yet still be a cousin to autism who can benefit from some of the same help. Certainly, she’s already suffering some of the same harms from stereotypes. T_T
Alright then, since the quotation thing is deemed rude no matter what my intentions are, would anyone like to offer some advice on this?
What could I write instead of the quotes to emphasize the fact that the label is spoken of and treated very differently in the world at large to the point to which it might as well be another concept entirely?
BTW thank you spriteless, very productive way of thinking there.
I think you can safely just use autism. Everyone knows what you mean, you’ve made it very, very, *very* clear
I may not be the best at reading social cues, but I can tell you’re really frustrated with my comments, and I’m sorry. Honestly I am too.
I’ll definitely feel the need to overcompensate in my writing to separate myself from the hurtful baggage that’s everywhere and emphasize that not all autisms*** are the same, but at the same time don’t want to trigger others.
***definitions, connotations and bigoted attitudes surrounding this concept/word will vary tremendously depending on who you talk to and where you live in the world. Evoke and identify with it at your own risk.
(I hope this new attempt is less triggering. If it is not, sorry in advance.)
Well, it’s an extra word, but you could always add a word describing what part of the extremely loaded word:
Autistic diagnosis leads to autistic stereotypes hurting the vulnerable. Though ableist allistics would have you think ‘autism disorder’ is a bad thing, there are benefits that bigotry blinds them to: autistic perspective comes with less preconceived notions and is more evidence based, and often more moral. If a person has had to work extra hard to learn to communicate, when they do speak it’s often more profound than the small talk you get from most.
Not that I think a person’s value should depend on such things. My sister is, ahh, I think of her as differently verbal, because she can quote MLP for hours but otherwise sticks to a few dozen sentences with nouns she swaps out. And that is no excuse to be mean to her.
Except it isn’t. She hasn’t been diagnosed. She’s been given a referral by a non-specialist to talk to a specialist to see if she /might/ be autistic.
Well I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s all but confirmed that she has autism. I’m not making this assumption from the text, but rather, the context.
Willis has said on multiple occasions that Joyce’s character is semi-autobiographical, so it stands to reason that something this major in Joyce’s life would be an echo of his own. He’s also said before in a Tumblr post that Dina’s personality was based on himself, and that when folks pointed out that Dina showed characteristics of autism, Willis believed that he himself may also possess some sort of neurodivergency, albeit undiagnosed. And now, years later, Joyce, the semi-autobiographical author insert comes out and says that she got a referral to get an autism diagnosis, accompanied with an alt-text to the effect of “don’t act like you were surprised.” I think the pieces fit, at least based on context.
Now, I could be wrong. Maybe neither Joyce doesn’t have autism, irrespective of whether Willis does or doesn’t. Hell, maybe Willis was diagnosed neurotypical; who’s to say, none of us know the man personally. But just based on the context we have for the comic and inspiration for Joyce’s character, I think us as readers assuming Joyce has autism is not an unfair assumption to make.
It’s Chekhov’s diagnosis. It’s there to be used.
Didn’t Dina do the same thing by gatekeeping people from Amber? Including her best friends?
Didn’t Amber specifically ask Dina to turn away all visitors?
I might be misremembering but I think that was at Amber’s request.
Amber asked Dina to be their dorm’s security.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/shielding/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/01-flyin-to-the-red/samething/
I think its more that Sarah is, correctly, recognizing that Joyce is in no condition to be dealing with other people right now, and that since Jennifer is completely in the dark about what’s causing Joyce’s angst, and that her becoming aware of it would kinda be a big deal for Joyce, This Is Not The Time.
Where was Sarah being shitty to Joyce? I’m so confused.
Yaaayyy trauma!
Noodle incident must have had a lot of fall out.
Sarah and Jennifer have been like this since the roofie incident.
Sarah didn’t like her from the moment they met, really. Jennifer started with ‘hey do you like to party’ and it was like oil to water.
Note how this mirrored Sarah’s first roommate opening by asking if she liked to smoke pot. That first interaction was a huge red flag for Sarah.
Which I don’t get. I don’t get it at all. Jennifer/Billie was helpful in that situation. One of the most helpful people there.
Agreed. It would be hard for Sarah to justify her initial dislike of Jennifer based on moral judgement. It must just be a personality thing.
Here’s the moment Sarah expresses her dislike of Jennifer, to her face, shortly after Jennifer was being helpful.
Oh, yes, I see that now.
Consider their actual first interactions:
– Sarah sees Billie get suplexed by Ruth after starting a fight: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/punch/
– Sarah initially greets her with Sarah level standard disdain, as she was way less social back then
– Billie opens with “you know of any good parties”, which as we now know, hearkens back to Sarah’s first roommate in the worst way possible:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/flares/
The groundwork for these two disliking each other was there from the very start. I think the most we ever saw them get along was hosing down Dorothy and Walky after they fell asleep in Joyce’s bed, then woke up and started making out.
Outing: Joyce roofied
Now: “I’m good at getting people to take pills.”
Billifer just realizing she may be really, really out of her depth
in between bouts of being insufferable, Joyce manages to fit an epiphany in every single day it seems.
god i feel u joyce
I read this comic every day, and i can’t parse that look on Billie’s face, nor can i tell if Joyce is upset about her autism diagnosis or her religious upbringing here. Can anyone else tell?
Probably both, but mostly the autism thing for right this moment
It’s for everything. Joyce has passed through shit.
It’s a Jennifer realizing she had expected to jump into the shallow end of the issues pool, but now finds herself on the high dive board needing a 9.5 score to keep in the competition.
Also, should we start calling her Binnifer instead of B_Jennifer?
b
Joyce is handling this… better than I expected… though that bar was laid on the ground
Hey Sarah. Hey. Joyce can make her own decisions about who she wants to be around. ASK HER if she wants to speak with Jennifer. The answer might surprise you, because Jennifer has been the only genuinely helpful non-Joe/non-Walky in Joyce’s orbit lately. (Yes offense.)
I don’t really think that’s a fair assessment that “nobody but Jennifer has been helpful”.
After all, since the time skip, Dorothy has helped Joyce with her vision (which might help with both her classes, and her agoraphobia), researched the cartoon writing contest, and encouraged her to make amends with Becky. She also offered to take Joyce to the doctor to deal with her medical issue (even if Jennifer was the one who ultimately went with her).
I said ‘lately’. The glasses are too far in my RL rear view to count, and the comics writing thing is fully something Joyce could have and would have researched on her own.
Dorothy did not encourage Joyce to mend fences with Becky, she ordered Joyce to apologize because Becky was sad. I have very long rants about this which I will not type again, but suffice to say that was Dorothy groveling to Poor Becky’s Tender Feelings When Eavesdropping Did Not Work Out Well and not being any kind of friend to Joyce IMO.
Finally, I 100% don’t include Dorothy telling Jennifer ‘oh, I’ll make an appointment, I have all Joyce’s info’ as any kind of offer to Joyce, seeing as how Joyce was not addressed in any way. Also, Dorothy had literally just finished sniggering with Becky about how Joyce was just a super stupid puppy who couldn’t possibly take pills even with peanut butter tricks, and couldn’t possibly be willing to go to the doctor anyway so why bother.
Calling Dorothy’s recent run of treating Joyce more like a toddler or a Job To Do ‘helpful’ will cut zero mustard with me. She falls quite short of the three people who have treated Joyce like a full person worthy of respect recently.
^ This. AAAALLLLL of this.
Dorothy’s MO is to line everything up for you, drag you through the process, then go “see, isn’t that better?” at the end and bask in her alleged good-deed-doing.
But, generally, it was better, though Dorothy does like extra credit and she shows her work, too.
Sometimes we need people like that in our lives.
I feel like you’re not really getting that most people aren’t that skilled at researching stuff and it’s actually difficult, time consuming, and tiring for people who aren’t that skilled at it…? And the glasses thing took a lot of emotional support and encouragement from both Dorothy and Becky… Also, Dorothy is friends with Becky, too, not just Joyce.
I feel that Dorothy’s priority was getting things to work out with Becky moreso than making sure that it felt 100% fair… and I appreciate that she didn’t coddle it when Joyce was acting like a jerk? It is mean to talk poorly about someone behind their back! Especially making someone who wants to be a scientist feel stupid. 🥺 Also, becky wasn’t Eve’s dropping, she just happened to walk in.
Still, I see your points and agree with them besides that. The way that she helps can be very flawed in ways that this storyline is hopefully going to address. Have a great day!
The terribleness of Sarah trying to gatekeep people helping and everyone else “helping” the situation is getting hard to parse. Can I just say, no one ACTUALLY hates anyone else here, comments or characters, despite appearances. But this whole situation is difficult to settle on a personal level so everyone needs to maybe take a few extra moments before laying out their words. This also took me a good little bit to write out.
Ouch, Sarah. Unless Joyce *asked* you to be her watchdog, you need to back off. It’s not your business to decide who goes to talk to her.
And meanwhile, Jennifer, it’s not your business to stand over her while she takes her pills either. You BOTH need to leave her alone until and unless she asks for your help.
I don’t think Jennifer wants to stand over Joyce and make her take pills. I think by “helping her with medication,” Jennifer meant, “helping her come to terms with the situaiton and wrap her head around it. Helping her think of what questions she wanted to learn more about, w/r/t how the medication worked and how it would affect her.” A support that Ruth also likely needed.
I doubt Jennifer plans to watch Joyce take her meds.
I figure its more a case of “how are you doing? Here are some side effects the doctors may not have talked to you about.”
Joyce has leaned on Sarah multiple times in the past as a guard dog for when she’s in emotional turmoil, and only ever responded positively to it. While I don’t think Joyce has ever explicitly asked her to do it, that she’s so comfortable and welcoming of it puts Sarah in the right to do it here.
Also, see Joyce’s outburst there, odds are Sara’s probably right on the money…
I agree she shouldn’t be keeping people from hanging out with Joyce, but this IS Sarah’s room. She also gets a veto over who can come inside, not just Joyce.
Sarah, Let Billie in.
She’s really good ( and bad ) at managing Drama Hurricanes.
and Joyce listens to her for some reason
Joyce listens to Jennifer because Jennifer is her friend.
Dang if anything I don’t know if Jennifer wants to be around Joyce right now.
It’s a situation that Jennifer cannot control. Of course not.
Why the hell do so many people seem to think Jennifer should just have blanket permission to come into Joyce’s room unless explicitly denied, when the lights are off and Joyce closed the door in people’s faces 10 minutes ago? Door’s closed for a fucking reason. I don’t get it. Some bad takes today.
Also consider that it’s also Sarah’s room and she has just as much right to deny people access as Joyce? It just doesn’t work on multiple levels.
I wanna be clear, when I said above that Sarah shouldn’t be able to block Jennifer, I meant based on not wanting Joyce to see her. She’s allowed to say ‘I don’t want you in the room,’ I just don’t think she can try to specifically keep her from reaching Joyce.
(to clarify: ” don’t think she can try to specifically keep her from reaching Joyce.” UNLESS Joyce actually requested that. I’m fine with ‘I don’t want you in our room,’ and ‘Joyce doesn’t want you in our room,’ I’m not fine with ‘you can’t see Joyce because I forbid it.’
Re-reading my comment, I wonder if there’s an aspect of “if I’d kept Dana’s friends from bothering her in the dorm room, she would have had the time to get better” or something
The problem is that Sarah made the denial of entry all about her and what she wants. Twice, actually. In both panels 1 and 3 Sarah makes clear that she doesn’t want Jennifer around Joyce, with no reference to what Joyce wants.
It’s not until panel 5 that she makes a reference to Joyce’s needs. And even that is doing a terrible job of passing on relevant information, because she makes an extremely vague allusion to everything Joyce is processing, rather than saying “Just a moment ago Joyce explicitly asked that everyone leave her alone so she could rest. Please try back later.”
Oh yeah, Sarah’s definitely being unnecessarily unpleasant about it. That doesn’t make her wrong.
In this case, it’s the very person who helped Joyce with he medical issues and it’s usually not out of the norm for such a person to come back and check if everything is okay.
If Joyce trusted her in the first place to accompany her to the doctor, I think an explicit denial is reasonable before trying to forbid Jen to see her right after.
Yeah, that. Jennifer’s not just showing up out of nowhere. She encouraged and accompanied Joyce on an emotionally heavy medical appointment while Joyce was in a tremendous amount of pain just this morning. It’s totally reasonable for her to come check in on her a few hours later to see how she’s doing and offer more support.
That said, it’s possible Sarah doesn’t realize the extent to which Jennifer is already involved? She wasn’t there when Jennifer announced her intention to “fix this” and I haven’t seen Jennifer’s name explicitly come up in Sarah’s presence since they got out of class. Sarah’s been there for the autism thing, but missed all the earlier hand-wringing about how Joyce might react to being prescribed birth control; Jennifer got all the birth control stuff, and has no idea about the autism referral. They’re coming at this from different perspectives about Joyce’s immediate emotional needs. No one’s a villain here (I say, in a strip in which two people are being openly antagonistic with one another).
So, who the fuck does Sarah even fucking think she is, to control who the fuck Joyce sees?
The proper response, Sarah, is: “Yes, of course you can see Joyce, and thank you for helping her, btw.”
The asshole Sarah can just go fuck herself. I don’t know why Willis determined to turn her into such a fucking asshole over the last couple strips, but it’s really really tiresome.
Who the fuck does Sarah think she is?
…the person that Joyce has trusted to control who the fuck gets to interact with Joyce on multiple occasions in the past when Joyce was feeling emotionally and mentally exhausted.
I mean, the correct response would be “…look, now’s not a good time, Joyce is going through some shit…” because… well, see the last panel. What exactly about that screams “Joyce is in a great place to interact with any human being whatsoever”?
Sarah’s words were “I don’t want you around Joyce.”
If Joyce has ever given Sarah that authority to control who interacts with Joyce, I don’t remember it happening, but if it has indeed happened, obviously my previous reaction to the strip was wrong and based on my faulty memory.
Phones exist. A door and a roommate cannot stop people from interacting if they want to do so. Hence, a reasonable assumption that Joyce does not want to do so.
Are you kidding me right now??
Solid argument. Very logical. I am convinced of my wrongness.
(Are you kidding *me*?)
Doors also exist. If Joyce didn’t want to see Jennifer, Sarah would have startedvwith that instead of going on and on about her own wants of which people Sarah wants to allow to see Joyce.
Thererefore she’s a fucking asshole, There your fucking self-evident logical argumemt which works far better than “phones exist therefore Joyce approves of whst Sarah is doing.” You’ve lost credibility that you actually believe what you are saying given the non-sequitur insanity of your ‘argument’
You’re really aggressive over shit that’s not remotely severe. What’s with that?
@taffy that’s literally nothing new with this commenter
Deathjavu, don’t post patreon spoilers on here. That isn’t allowed.
yeah, you’re right. that’s not why I patreon and I apologize. I would flag my own comment if that button existed this far down the thread, but it doesn’t appear to.
taffy, deathjavu is not arguing in good faith, as seen by the argument “The technological existence of phones proves that Joyce wants Sarah to prevent people from seeing her.”
That’s basically trying to pull a Chewbacca defense, where you say the most insane thing possible to defend an arbitrary claim. If phones exist, then obviously Joyce doesn’t want to speak to Jennifer. Defend THAT insanity.
I’m not playing this stupid game. I’m making fun of it.
Sounds like Joyce is in the middle of an existential crisis. Probably not the best time to defer guest admission decision-making to her…
Yes, Sarah was a little too blunt. She’s Sarah, that’s her thing. It wouldn’t be as interesting a story if there wasn’t conflict.
Maybe Sarah thinks she also lives in that room and can allow or deny access based on that alone? Even before we get into the question of whether or not it’s a good idea? (it’s not)
She’s explicitly denying access to Joyce, because she doesn’t want Jennifer talking to Joyce. In that alternate fictional reality universe where she speaks instead about not wanting Jennifer in her room, she’s slightly less of an asshole, but it’s an alteŕnate fictional reality, not what we saw.
Sarah is Joyce’s substitute big sister, whom Joyce trusts to be around her during her worst crises.
I don’t think she’s making the right decision here keeping Jennifer away, but not because “SHE HAS NO RIGHT”, I just use my audience knowledge to surmise Jennifer might be more helpful here than Sarah expects her to be.
Sarah can be controlling especially when she thinks she’s in the right. I think the profanity is too extreme, but Sarah isn’t going to be winning any awards for social niceties.
Ok for real, I really want to know what the falling out between Billie/Jennifer and the rest of the group was.
Billiardball Morebucks doesn’t like being around them because they know about her various fuckups, so she swapped rooms with Malaya as a sort of soft reboot on college? And she’s generally abrasive enough that they don’t really hang out with her if other options are available? I don’t think it was any one specific incident, is all I mean.
They’re the loser nerd safety net that caught her after her mighty fall from grace after high school. Her Haughtiness saw an opportunity to climb the social ladder again, and since she’s not tied to Ruth anymore she stepped all over them to reach it.
Didn’t she mostly hang around out of proximity, like walking from the dorm to math? And now that she’s in another dorm she’s going to run into everyone less. Plus it was implied that she felt pigeonholed in her old role within the old group.
She’s a ball of drama, substance abuse issues and toxic coping methods combined with a desperate desire for validation from those she deems popular. While Joyce and her friend group are better for her emotionally they are also the kinds of people she considers pretty near the bottom of her perceived social hierarchy. Sarah has her pegged as both undesired trouble and a potential toxic influence on Joyce.
Also I apologise, I accidently flagged your comment by accident and there’s no way to unflag it.
One thing people are forgetting: ITS A DORM ROOM. Joyce can see and hear everything that’s going on between Sarah and Jennifer. If Joyce is ignoring or not noticing that, it’s a good sign she’s not in a mental space to visit with people.
Everything is a lie
Eat at arbys
This human has the right idea.
But just a tip, if you get the hamburger might wanna heat up the patty in the oven for a few minutes.
There’s a reason why they insist on all those extra toppings
Arby’s don’t sell no borger. They got shaved beef and the best gyros I’ve ever had, though.
They do have delicious gyros. I’m not sure why they’re so good, but I have passed up actual dedicated gyro joints for Arby’s gyros. (One of said gyro joints has amazing tacos though.)
They have a wagyu* steakhouse burger that they cook using the sous vide method (hence it being pink in the middle, but still actually cooked all the way through) until July 31.
*made with 48% ground beef and 52% American wagyu, which is itself not true wagyu, as the beef comes from North American cattle breeds crossed with Japanese wagyu, but still pretty tasty
Ah, yes, recontextualizing your entire life after a potential diagnosis. Who hasn’t been there?
(Also I know I’m several days late, but I want to thank everyone who wished me a happy birthday five days ago. It was greatly appreciated!)
Ayup. That and, “Everything I dislike about myself and want to change is the result of my condition. Therefore, I am doomed never to change.” (Yuck face.)
Given how little we know about the brain, we can never know whether or not those things could be changed for any person. But to accept automatically that that I’ll never be able to change what I don’t like about myself? That sounds rather gloomy to me, I don’t like it at all.
It’s why I like being neuro-fluid, just giving myself room to flow between the worlds of neurodivergence the same way I explore gender-worlds as someone who’s gender-fluid, to see what my brain can do once I feel up to it, you know?
Oh, yeah. I was just talking about the tendency to catastrophize upon learning new information, you know? ;-}
Like, “I’ll never be able to change” is what a catastrophizing thinker might say, in the moment, as they start coming to terms with their diagnosis.
“coming to terms with”, something always iffed me about that phrase when it comes to this, namely down to handling it like a “professional” diagnosis describes a tangible, exact and undeniable reality, were in actuality the best doctors can do is no better than a blind guess. With or without a diagnosis untangling your own unique stripes as a neurodivergent is a very personal journey where nobody can at all claim to know your own brain better than you do.
IMO the only things a “professional” diagnosis is really good for is getting medication medleys and also for shaking money out of a government to make ends meet in a capitalist system that’s unstable to begin with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, in that case, “coming to term with” is the perfect verb. When parties come to terms, they negotiate. They haggle. And they get the best deal they can.
That’s one way to approach a diagnostic conversation: “What is the most effective help and support for my specific needs that your professional gatekeeping can help me to arrange? ‘Make me an offer.'” ;-D
(Terms of a settlement.)
Professional Gate-keeping is much more oppressive than people think it is.
Between Dina getting denied her desired “professional” diagnosis and my getting denied a “professional” PTSD diagnosis after countless wasted hours, really says something about this system still affected by bigotry and bourgeois bias of all kinds.
It’s worth the time to just know when to say fuck it, because it’s all too easy to get trapped in an endless loop where you’re seeking acknowledgement from a system that’s deliberately set up to oppress and enable oppression. If you value “professionals'” respect too much, you give them a hold over you. When you turn the focus in the other direction, to your own self-respect and self-acknowledgement, there is often a natural, much needed shift.
…which is why negotiation is an adversarial process.
And a very merry un-birthday to you!
Thank you again!
Lots of people, I’d imagine. Tons never get diagnoses that probably should, and plenty more never need diagnoses in the first place.
well, the comments on this strip have been a fascinating inkblot on why ______ is the worst.
people
“People who annoy you”…..
Nah just people. People is the worst. I have proof *gestures at outside world*
I was refering to StClair’s fill in the blank comment, hoping the TV reference would not be lost, but alas
Without Mike or Mary around we are bereft of hate sinks.
What ever happened to Mary? She drop out? Get hitched? Get woke and decided to reevaluate herself? None of the above and I just forgot about her and so did Willis and now that I reminded him he’s gonna write her into the next comic and so she’ll show up in 8 months and it will be my fault my paranoia is running away from me
One of the upcoming storylines is “Bring me to Life Drawing” which, as Mary is an artist, may feature her heavily.
Oh don’t mind me, I just never liked Billie/Jennifer to begin with:
-bullies goth and is unapologetic about it
-bullies other people (in fact anyone who won’t answer strongly)
-not really fine with being the white-passing daughter but fine enough to accept gifts and not being supportive of Sal
-still play power games outside of bullying
-stink rich, the reason for people to have been oppressed and never did anything against it
-gives cash for offenses
pros: listen sometimes (well if it’s not too long and she hasn’t time to get her own fiction of what is said camouflaging the words), knows about pill and pregnancy.
Basically, all the pros are covered by Roz, that does a better job of:
– inform people as a collective and not on a “I like you” basis
– checking privileges
Wow, that’s the most I ever wrote about the comic itself and not the reactions toward it. She must have hit some nerve, so yeah, probably I’m wrong as fuck and rambling.
But anyway, today’s strip has not much to do with why I don’t like her, it’s just a continuation. I hope she’ll get a better hang of values (because *my* values are universally good, and I shall impose them on every existing fictional character that exists).
Okay I think I need to stop reading the comments for a bit
This shit is getting wildly toxic tbh, any opinions on a character becomes a flame war of other characters.
Sorry you feel that way Mr.Morningstar
If it’s any consolation, I add alternate venues of engagement here so the whole place isn’t 100% hard discussion on serious issues.
(such as that 7-11 question up there)
If you gaze too deep into the comments, the comments will gaze back. Do not feel obligated to engage or even read if you suspect it’s not gonna be a good time.
Agreed. All this hate is really weird. Probably people has meet too much people like Jennifer or Sarah in their lives.
I’ve been reading DoA for….I think as of this year officially 10 years? And the most important thing I’ve learned about the comments is that a lot of people here take understandable character flaws and perfectly ordinary character conflict extremely personally and make wide sweeping moral judgements of the fictional characters because of it.
I agree I want to have light and fun discussions about the comic but I come here and it’s always a discussion of who is being shitty and why.
I want to have deep discussions on craft and characterization as if the comic were being studied in a good English class. Alas, which female (never male) character trying her best (never the actual jerks) is the WORST for being human and realistic doesn’t really fit into that. The patriarchy, which I blame, is why we can’t have nice things.
I’m pretty sure a whole bunch of Jane Austen salon commenters were all about breaking china and flipping tables while discussing Emma’s failures.
I’m also pretty sure Tom Gauld made or will make a comic about this.
I mean, if people get infuriated, it’s because the characterization works somehow. Maybe not always in the authors’ sense (well, a pedant character in Huxley’s Those Barren Leaves said that people only read a small part of what si written anyway)?
On that note, I miss Cerb.
So do we all. Hope she’s doing well.
Okay but seriously, what the heck happened over the time skip
none of these characters have ever done anything wrong in their life, ever
i will not be taking questions or comments at this time 
🧚
️
Nothing wrong, ever? What about that time Dorothy drank all of Billie’s lighter fluid and used it to rob a bank with fire breath?
I was going to make a joke but then I noticed it’s Kuriboh! No joke just Kuriboh!
Is there something I don’t know that happened off-screen that we do’nt know about that make her not want Jennifer to talk to Joyce?
It’s Sarah, she hates everybody
Sarah is not a fan of the Corrupt the Cutie trope.
I think Sarah is just blanket protective of Joyce at this point. She does not personally trust Jennifer for whatever reason (they dont seem like people who would mesh well, I don’t remember details) and I think at this point the list of people she WOULD allow into the room without Joyce’s explicit request is, like, 2 of them.
And neither Dorothy nor Becky would make the list, methinks.
I think Sarah pretty much immediately picked up on her ‘popular hot mess party girl’ vibes and she can’t stand that exact type of person in particular more so than others.
And Joyce was an innocent naive person who was also overly trusting. Hence, try to keep the person who could ‘corrupt’ her, far away. Especially when said corrupter at one point actually suggested it might be better if Joyce was more like her which no, as Jennifer was a toxic hot mess.
They have only ever had a limited number of times they have gotten along briefly over a shared goal.
Sarah’s always worried that Jennifer will be a bad influence.
Sarah’s just never liked Jennifer, dating back to when she was Billie. Pretty sure Billie was just the type of person that rubbed Sarah the wrongest way, and she expects the same of Jennifer.
Sarah is like Dina in this, but you can’t bribe her talking about dinosaurs. Joyce really needs to have some time alone, but this probably will not stop Jennifer and I want to see how this will influence her and her way to see about herself and her ability to help always and being a Problems solver.
Tell us the truth, Willis: when you wrote “Your antagonism is incredibly tiring”, were you thinking of a book title?
I feel so much for Joyce right now, as someone who has had a really similar life trajectory. Adult discovery I’m autistic, raised in a hard right extremist group with fucked up beliefs on authority, gender, and sexuality, followed by rapidly getting my preconceived notions of how the world works and is disproven and subsequent deradicalization in uni. About the only thing that isn’t a 1:1 is my family weren’t fundagelical and I’m the oldest not the baby.
So, I get it kid.
I can say: this Joyce freak-out is I think about the possibility of autism but it’s also not about that. It’s about kind of everything?
By which I mean, when you go through a process of deradicalization, especially of you were raised in an extremist environment, there’s a whole lot of questioning the very basis of your understanding of reality and truth as concepts that goes on. If you’ve ever been in a bouncy castle, it’s kind of like trying to navigate one of those blindfolded and dizzy. For a while, every time you think you get your feet under you something else comes along to upset it. That stage does eventually pass but for me it was a solid 4 years before I felt like I had established a reliable grounding in reality and truth.
Then we add in that other extremist groups actively look for people in that mindset, and it’s really common for someone to break free of one cult or extremist group only to fall into another. Because when you feel like reality has no foundation, it’s a horrible sense of just anxiety and distrust and constantly wondering what else you need to question, and another cult will be happy to slide in there with a new (equally fake and distorted but they’ll hide it from you) foundation you can just plop into your world view without having to do all that hard, messy, and anxiety provoking work of questioning reality and your values and building your own foundation. Luckily for me the groups that targeted me in that phase unintentionally reminded me a lot of the group I’d just left so I avoided that trap, but I honestly think it was luck. If it weren’t for the fact that they made the mistake of shunning and berating those who questioned the dogma before I’d fully bought in I probably would’ve been snagged.
Joyce is still at the beginning of that process, and frankly she’s probably going to feel worse before she feels better.
I couldn’t have said it better myself ischemgeek. So sorry you had to go through that, I’ve been there myself, and rebuilding reality itself from the ground up is one extraordinary undertaking, especially when it makes us prey in a kingdom of predators.
If there is one thing I could ever change about the human condition, it would be the ability to live something like a second childhood — like a sort of “reset button” for the brain, a chance to grow up all over again and build a reliable world-view, and know what fair treatment is like, and establish a sound sense of self and safety and stability and security that won’t be blown to smithereens, and create happy memories to look back on that aren’t attached to trauma.
It might sound fringe, but this comes from a really good place, out of compassion for those who’ve suffered abuse, trauma and indoctrination of all kinds. I believe everyone deserves a second chance to live a full, happy, healthy life free of anguish and resentment and illness.
Thank you ischemgeek. Really appreciate your writing here, every day. 🥲
You know, it’s entirely possible (though unlikely), given that Jennifer waited for Joyce to leave the doctor’s, that she already knows about the potential autism and simply didn’t share that information with Walky and Lucy.
The strip doesn’t read that way to me, but Jennifer does have a higher EQ than most of the main cast (at least when she’s not being at her worst).
So it could be she knows exactly what issue is troubling Joyce and came anyway.
Again, I doubt it, but it’s possible.
I bet she knows about the BC prescription and that Joyce was referred to a specialist, but she might not know what kind of specialist. Joyce was guarded about that until she finally cracked in the hallway.
Not really?
No one asked her anything until the hallway, so she it’s not like she avoided answering questions.
She volunteered that she had a referral which everyone assumed was regarding her period/birth control.
The moment someone asked her what was bothering her vs assuming what was bothering her, she mentioned it in a matter of seconds.
So if Jennifer also asked instead of assuming, she could have been told as well.
I still doubt it, though.
Jennifer is the only person I have consistently sided with this storyline.
Samesies.
If Joyce in the last panel is about her finding out she might be autistic, I can relate. Since I started to suspect last year, and after getting diagnosed earlier this year, I’ve felt kinda like this meme when I look back on my life so far.
Ugh I screwed it up. This.
Personally I found the realization that I’m probably somewhere on the spectrum to be comforting. Everything finally makes sense.
I… somehow think Billie probably WILL be good with this. Huh.
Ohhh just realized that’s Joyce talking in the last panel. Comic suddenly makes more sense now. Note to self: word bubble tails are important.
I am really wishing for a few more automatic filters, like the one changing b**** to bongo. F*** could be “fork” or “frack” or “heck,” or something, s*** could be “sugar”, a**h*** could be “proctologist,” or “butt opening” or “pooper” or something less blatant. Would be nice. Relaxing. Remind us not to take the conversation too seriously.
So Jennifer has shown up to make sure Joyce will take her period meds properly and make sure she’s ok with the idea of it dish out advice adjusting. She thinks Sarah and the others let Joyce go through with a bunch of pain without pushing her to sort this issue.
Sarah knows Joyce has a referral for a different issue that is really shaking her up and that she needs a chance to sleep on this and get a little distance from her current pain so she can work out what to tell people on her own terms rather than just have all her information fall out all over the place in shock, like when she blurted it out to Dotty, Sarah and Dina and got a bunch of reverb from it.
An interesting stand off.
Like Sarah wasn’t great in that conversation either but what Sarah says and how Sarah wishes she’d handled something immediately after seeing the results are often at odds.
Incredibly confused how so many people are mad at Jennifer in this specific scenario for “overstepping her bounds” when I feel like Sarah and Dorothy are *actually* the ones with boundary issues. No matter how Sarah feels for Joyce as her stand-in big sis, she doesn’t have the right to say “I don’t want you seeing her” to someone. Okay so she doesn’t like Jennifer, they never seemed to get along, but unless there’s some actual danger or issue at hand here idk why tf Sarah thinks she can say that. Also Dorothy is annoying as hell and needs to be brought down many MANY pegs.