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A festival of broken people, blood flows in the center ring. Come one and come all, to the greatest show in all of Paris.
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A young woman joins a group of summoners who call forth Guardian Beasts to protect their isolated magical island. Unfortunately, her Guardian Beast is nothing like she'd imagined, and he's about to change her life, and everything she thought she knew about herself...
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Logan Ibarra is possibly the unluckiest repairman in the world. A late night job should not have landed him in the middle of a mad scientist's squabble, but he soon finds himself surrounded by monsters and further madness with little tools to get out.
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Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
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Heather Vodihn is on a simple mission: find her father. However she becomes entangled with two strangers with mysterious powers being stalked by a group with bizarre demands. Heather must learn to trust her new traveling companions, even if she is untrustworthy herself.
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It's a pretty rigid format but we keep the content loose, you know?
Guilded Age
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Depends. If she’s streaking with the wind, she can cut down on windchill, but if going against it, she’ll increase windchill. There’s likely a function we can derive for her ideal velocity in relation to wind speed, direction, and the course she intends to follow, to compute if she should be streaking fast or slow. Also, velociraptors.
It’s interesting that there seems to always be snow outside. I drove through Indiana in February this year, there wasn’t any. I’m guessing it’s still January in comic time, but I’m thinking that should be melting soon.
Meanwhile where I am it’s April 1 and it’s going to be almost 80 today. Ugh.
Fools! We are here at Galasso’s Pizza (and subs, and funeral home) to pay respects to your wretched classmate, who left this earth too soon. Enjoy the catering, while you can!
Eh, it was more bizzare than anything. “tell me a story based on five random objects,” “what are some things people do that annoy you,” “what’s going on in this picture book?” No idea how it went honestly.
And thank you! it’s a logo I designed for myself initial in sixth grade, then revamped in 10th grade. It’s vaguely supposed to be
1. a planet in the top with a sign
2. a bunch of binary that doesn’t actually mean anything on the left
3. recursive cubes on the right
Yeah. Being part of the same orgy doesn’t mean they would be involved with each other. They could simply encourage each other, maybe even hold hands like they did in the laundry room.
Dorothy tries to set it up in the most high detail planned way possible, Becky suggests just going with the flow, Dina starts trying to augment both suggestions based on mating rituals and social behaviors she had studied for the occasion, and Joyce simply asks if they can start by all four holding hands on top of the machines in the Laundry Room, leading Becky to ask about that oddly specific suggestion.
Both Joyce and Dorothy avoid looking directly into Becky’s eyes.
There is no other way to take this.
HEY JOE! Get the frick over here and give Joyce your consent for her to participate in an orgy or lesbian sex if she wishes.
Like. Joyce has always given me baby bi or at least bi-curious vibes.
Dorothy has never read as anything but a straight girl and a decent ally to me. It’s bewildering that people read her as into Joyce- especially in the same comment sections pointing out she’s basically just mom-friending Joyce in a lot of those same strips.
Even the ‘ha-ha they’re mistaken as a lesbian couple’ strip didn’t change my opinion on how Dotty reads- just Joyce.
Honestly it’s more like a cute joke to me at this point to ship them mainly because these moments keep happening. Even though I think Joyce is at least questioning by now, shes’s so repressed I don’t think she’ll realize she might like girls until her mid thirties likely already happily married to some great guy. Dorothy of course has stated she’s straight and I respect that, I really do think Joyce would be the exception. The masturbation lesson kind of solidified that more to me even if it’s not a sexual attraction in nature. She dreams about Joyce while not wearing pants, has moments of jealousy over her affection much like Becky, and even have a casual level of skin-ship well beyond most friendship levels. There’s something there beyond being the mom friend even if she doesn’t realize it. But I do also just find it cute.
Hmm… what are the betting odds on this night ending with drunk Joyce and Dorothy asking Joe for a threesome? I know Dorothy hates Joe right now but hate is an attractive force, I suspect especially when you’re drunk.
I hate it when characters lean on the fourth wall, who the heck talks about humanizing themselves by doing mildly transgressive things?
it would be more natural to say “this will be a funny story to tell in the future”
I do. By using language whose connotations or level of formality are ill-suited to the present topic, or which is in some other way noticeably incorrect while still being clearly understandable, a comedy is produced.
I too have found/created humor with my level of language formality mismatched to the context. Mismatched register if you will. It’s amusing. Did I hear someone say this was not funny? ?? Maybe I just entertain myself. But I’m pleased to hear that it’s a ND thing.
This feels entirely natural for Joyce to say and honestly I really like seeing characters speak in this manner as somebody who’s autistic. I legit feel “seen” with this kind of dialogue.
Damn you Willis, stop breaking the fourth wall by commenting on your own comic! What will you do next?! WRITE the comic?!? All this meta cr*p is getting out of control…
I think Willis’s complaint is that a LOT of people seem to think that any instance of a character saying something they wouldn’t personally say is breaking the fourth wall.
You know, Joyce, orgies can be mildly subversive and deeply humanizing incidents! Plus I think Joe would be cool with polyamory!
You know, once you get polyamory fully explained to you by Sierra. While hyperventilating into a bag and psyching yourself up for a threesome. Several weeks before even broaching the idea of a threesome.
Being bisexual also doesn’t necessarily mean threesomes, but shippers who say “this character is bi and has two hands” aren’t making a sweeping statement about bi people OR polyamorous people. They’re making a specific statement about that specific character and how much they want that character to make out with more than one other character at the same time.
I actually don’t think Joe would be cool with polyamory. I think he would try to be cool with it for Joyce but ultimately he would feel neglected and hurt.
However I do think he has thought about this threesome before.
it’d prolly be throwing too much at it as well, but be interesting if it’s like “where are we gonna get the alcohol?” “oh i’ll just ask my older brother i’ve been putting off talking to him” and then they can have a heart to heart buzzed convo about her sibling coming out as trans (but realistically that storyline might take a while to get to assuming joceylene comes back in the pic anytime soon)
I have, just once. Just so happened to be in the vicinity of a group climbing into a tent, got invited, and was like “waiiiiiit, that’s actually a thing irl people just randomly do? Guess I’ll have to find out what that’s like, you know, for science”
… It was okay. Mostly interesting for the unusualness.
Dunno, sounds like the kind of thing you’d like to try at least once, ’cause if there’s something that’s more “cutting loose and having fun” than being in a group of people being uninhibited about the most policed behaviour in society, I haven’t heard of it.
At least if you don’t panic when touched. I talk a big game about the theory of it, but I’m not doing anything myself until I get past that particular hurdle, neurodiversity be damned.
I guess it’s from Dorothy’s blaming herself for everything bad that’s happened, but I still don’t like how she’s talking down to Joyce in panel 1. It’s her treating Joyce like a project, distilled.
Yes, we must admit that although Dorothy is not bad, she has this habit of seeing people as projects, although I dare say that this could be the opportunity for her to see it from a new angle.
I hope Joyce isn’t saying anything about it because she’s trying to get Dorothy to open up about what’s on her mind. Because it would make me feel like this: https://www.dumbingofage.com/coat/
yes, Joyce should have looked for drawing classes herself.
Ideally, she is making up for it now, getting Dorothy to see things from that new angle. Start getting a healthier friendship.
Anyone know what strip Joyce was quoting in panel 3? I will go back and try to find it, but there are a lot of comics at this point so it might take a while.
I feel like it was either something Dorothy said in the past, or something Roz said while roasting Dorothy.
It’s shit like this is why Joyce is my favorite character, and why I think she deserves better friends than the likes of Dorothy and Sarah. She should hang out with Sal more, Sal won’t bullshit her.
Sent me off on a train of thought based on calling her Christlike when she’s a partial a self-insert from the author.
Also amused me as an autistic woman with a lot of traits in common with Joyce to examine the idea that Christ could read as autistic. Strong sense of Justice, stubborn adherence to principals, non-compliance to more common social rules, hangs out with other ND people in found family, etc (not a serious claim, just interesting to contemplate)
Yeah, there have been several kerfuffles here over comments to the effect of “Wow, the atheist is better at following religious tenets than the self-proclaimed believers.”
Dorothy and Sarah of course made mistakes, but for that reason alone many assume that this is a “valid reason” to classify them as terrible friends and that Joyce is looking for “real friends”, that honestly doesn’t seem fair to me.
Very rarely does a “bad friend” chaise an assailant with a baseball bat for you. I’m sure it comes up, because that’s behavior which would be somewhat more common among bad people. But, still!
I mean, that’s a broad stroke to make. And I say that as someone who once had Sarah as one of my fave characters. She does grand gestures to protect. But is otherwise kind of genuinely awful.
Yup, this. Her whole shtick is to swoop in in an crisis and Take Care of Everything, but when it comes to the day to day issues she kinda sucks at dealing with it yet blames others for her own inability to manage. She’s not that different from Jennifer in that regard.
Let’s not forget the conversation Joyce and Sarah had where Joyce explicitly said “The little stuff matters, too.” And the little stuff does matter. I think Sarah does mean well deep in her core, she’s not evil or a villain, but “I do the big stuff and that makes me being mean about little stuff okay” smacks of and will always smack of an abusive relationship.
I mean, people make bad-faith readings of Joyce all the time based on single strips, so let me dunk on Dorothy and Sarah based on (realtime) years of their condescending, even controlling behavior. It’s only fair, I think.
This isn’t to say that they’re bad people, or even necessarily irredeemably bad friends, but they, like Jennifer, seem to think they’ve Totally Masterized Adulthood and are quite condescending to people they think are childlike, like Joyce and Dina. And I speak from experience when I talk about how damaging and insulting it is. I’ve had people treat me like a child my entire life — even romantic relationships. Some people will choose to remember only the version of you they had the most power over, no matter how long it’s been or how much you’ve changed.
I agree, and for me at least the controlling/infantilizing behavior from these ‘I am better than you because X’ types is particularly galling when you realize that actually, Dina and Joyce have their stuff together better than most.
Well, at least this is a constructive comment. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t hate Joyce, it’s just that some gave her an image of a “tragic figure who deserves the love of the universe, who should be tolerated for her mistakes against the evil world”, because of that detail, it made me It’s been difficult to take your progress seriously.
Yes, I know that she is the main character, but I feel that she has been doing very well recently (too well) and I would love to see a conflict that actually manifests a negative aspect where they stop putting her as a character who “has learned everything.” ”
and her facet is also judged.
Now, regarding the others. Sarah has at least tried not to be harsh with her comments towards Joyce, with the rest she still expresses herself in a bad way, but it seems that even little by little she already wants to do things right.
Jennifer has certain really positive details, but that damn, inflated ego makes many (myself included) see her in an unwelcome way. I assure you that if suddenly, I don’t know, she has financial problems and tries to seek help from Raidah , this one is going to leave her aside and pretend not to know her, that would be a reality check that could make her finally open her eyes.
When it comes to judging the characters, Dorothy is the one who always points the finger most severely at, god, they already assumed that she would be responsible for ruining Joe and Joyce’s relationship, but she stopped herself and accepted it, In addition to the fact that she has taken more time to see her problems, some have already softened in how they have treated her and I dare say it, she seems that little by little she has already taken small steps, and although it is not so significant, at least Ruth, Walky and surprisingly Jennifer, have helped her a little, yes, Joyce can help, go ahead, let’s just hope that now finally Dorothy doesn’t have to be on top of everyone 24/7.
All this is just my opinion, it’s just that I constantly noticed those details that I just wanted to express it.
So, I’m starting to realize that Dorothy’s attitude towards Joyce isn’t actually just condescending overprotection so much as it is genuine trauma from the original incident at the party.
Well, the nightmare revealed that the kidnapping incident was the high point, but perhaps the party was just small indications that Dorothy wanted to “correct her mistake.”
Joyce is someone who Dorothy feels protective over, so whenever something bad happens it’s her “failure” that it did, and not the simple chaotic chance of existence.
For what it’s worth, while I’m not a college student, my wife is autistic in similar ways to Joyce and over time I start to piece together that oh wow I am absolutely Dorothy aren’t I? It is not a fun place to be to think if you aren’t on your guard at all times then tragedy will strike. It makes you insane and burns you out.
Oh RIGHT we had that whole dream sequence specifically about how Dorothy’s numerous compounding traumas are all centered on Joyce, huh. Honestly forgot about that, it’s been a hot minute.
Joyce, I’m pretty sure Joe would be down for an orgy if you asked. Or even just cool with you being in one if him being there would be weird for Dorothy. Point being, Joe just wants you to be happy and if that involves drunken group sex with his ex-bestie-in-law then so be it. As long as you ask first; cheating is bad.
Honestly, I think New Joe would not be down for this. His whole deal before was trying to ham fist ethical non monogamy into some kind of 80’s movie ideal to cover his feelings of self hatred and fear of hurting people.
I don’t even think Joe is horny for Joyce with the same part of his brain that he’s horny for everyone else. I think mixing them at this point would turbo charge his self=hatred.
Yeah, Joe’s dealing with a massive amount of self-loathing related to his previous attitude and actions towards sex. I’m kinda weirded out that folks think he’d be down with Joyce asking him to take part in an orgy. Makes me wonder if we’re reading the same comic, or at least reading it the same way.
I think he might take an issue with it given they haven’t had sex yet themselves and an orgy would be a high intensity/demand way to have sex for the first time.
Personally, I think Joe wouldn’t ACTUALLY be okay with it, deep down, but he’d still tell Joyce that he is. Partly because he’d be terrified of losing her if he said no, and partly because he’s only very recently admitted to himself that romance is something he wants at all, so it’ll take a lot more self-reflection before he’s willing to admit that he wants monogamous romance in particular.
I know practically speaking an orgy would generally have to have food present, but talking about food and sex in the same sentence makes my brain imagine them combined, and mac and cheese sex is a particularly unpleasant image.
each comment has an id number, used for linking directly. You can copy the link for the OP comments from the # before Reply Report Comment. But even replies have an id. Yours is comment-1786313. NGPZ’s is comment-1786306, and Ana’s first comment is 1786238. 1786306-1786237 = 69
Dorothy is infantilizing Joyce pretty hard, overstepping her bounds. Joyce isn’t any less safe experimenting with alcohol than any of their peers, especially not with trusted friends present. Jennifer was right; the roofie incident had nothing to do with alcohol.
Yeah, i gotta agree here. Can’t say that Joyce jumping out to get drunk is the best idea but if she wants to, she can find ways to do it (relatively) safely. I can’t be too mad though because the rest of this is at it’s heart adorable…
I think that was mostly just for baiting Dorothy. “WELP, I’m going to go do something reckless and stupid and there’s nothing you can do to stop me so byeee!”
Which is I think part of the point Joyce is making. Or at least where the storyline is going. Dorothy doesn’t need to control things. If Joyce thinks having a few drinks to blow off steam for Dorothy is going to help then that’s what she is going to do.
That might have been Dorothy’s first real experience with alcohol, and the roofie incident must have been terrifying. I think it got mixed up in her head emotionally. I think this is more about Dorothy’s anxieties than anything else. She sees herself as the person that keeps everyone safe, and this is bringing up memories of a time that she couldn’t.
Nah, she had wine with her parents in Paris and Jennifer-flask contents at Joyce’s party. She’s fine with alcohol for herself. For Joyce, she’s policing her alcohol the same way she was policing her sex life.
“Drinking a little wine with your parents” is not what I was going for. It was her first big college party where people were drinking without parental supervision, and something really bad almost happened. It would be stranger if she didn’t have anxiety about it.
Drinking from Jennifer’s flask happened later, after an alcohol-free party was orchestrated specifically because of this incident. If Joyce had decided to drink too it probably wouldn’t have brought up the same fears, because they were with people they trusted. Dorothy might have been threatened by Joyce stepping out of her usual role, but that is different from the specific fear on display right now.
I missed out on orgies? All I ever got to do is take arrested unconscious underage drunken students to the medical center.
They started as semi coherent idiots who refused transport because they didn’t want their parents to find out. So Campus Security simply waited for them to pass out and arrested them for their own safety. That way if they woke bake up they couldn’t refuse.
Is it just me or is Dotty pushing her trauma on Joyce? Because… alcohol is not dangerous to Joyce. It was the specific situation that was dangerous, not alcohol itself but Dotty is acting like Joyce drinking will immediately summon creeps.
That’s how Joyce treated it, remember? People had pointed out alcohol had nothing to do with it but she was too traumatized and kept getting defensive when it was brought up. Joyce hasn’t imbibed because I think somewhere in her fundamentalist brain she still kind of associates her “sin” of partying the only way she knows how, but she’s far enough away from it now (and Ryan is probably going to jail, still in stitches, or both) that she can let it go for Dorothy.
This has been a problem I’ve had with the time skip. I’m expecting change on the scale of the first two months of the last semester, and in some ways that has happened but in others characters are completely static in ways they shouldn’t be. It stands out even more in the way that they immediately begin changing once we returned to action. I don’t know, maybe it’s the soft character reset that’s throwing me.
I mean, this is Dorothy. She doesn’t like letting go. Joyce has thrived in the aftermath of Ryan getting the shit kicked out of him by Amber. I think it’s pretty fitting that Dorothy hasn’t changed and she needs to, and Joyce has evolved greatly to the point of leaving her behind a little.
I’d like to point out that Dorothy was right there and watched the shit get kicked out of him, and was a little bit traumatized by it; in the immediate aftermath, Joyce thanked Amber for doing it, and Dorothy withdrew a bit from her.
So much happens in this comic and it’s been like 15 years. I have the same issue but I also get high once in a while and re-read my favorite parts so it helps to remember.
Look, if people didn’t want to be teased like this, they wouldn’t have such hilarious reactions in the comics every time Dorothy and/or Joyce bring up anything sex- and/or romance-related!
The mention of “Monogamous” makes me wonder if Joyce might end up in a polyamorous relationship with Joe and Dorothy. It’s not likely, I know, but it could happen.
oh I absolutely agree
I don’t know if Dorothy will be involved, but I’m calling it now that this is foreshadowing that Joyce is gonna end up as polyamorous
(if I’m wrong, meh, but if I’m right it’s going to be so nice to get new poly rep ♡)
Like most things I’ve got issues with, also religion and the Beatles, I wouldn’t find Joyothy-baiting nearly as funny if people weren’t insufferable about it in the first place.
It is a pretty common and normal trauma reaction for things associated with that trauma to become triggers, making you unable to participate on them without emotional distress. Just because it doesn’t seem to be the case for Joyce doesn’t mean it’s not a logical conclusion to make.
I’m with you. One traumatic experience does not mean all alcohol forever is scary, and if someone is like “Hey! I’m gonna go do this thing I found traumatic, come make a bad decision with me!” you don’t run all over it “BUT JOYCE, YOU HAVE TRAUMA!!”
No! You sit down with them, go “This is a terrible idea” and you do that terrible idea together, laugh, and make it less traumatic.
Dorothy clearly has trauma about it too. She stopped watching Joyce for a few minutes and something REALLY BAD almost happened. Of course that’s terrifying.
Joyce is an amazing friend. Dorothy really needs to follow her for once and see what weird adventure they will have. I still think the possibility of Dorothy getting drunk and confessing her love for her to Joyce is a big possibility.
“I’m just going to say it, shame on any of us who throws a trans child under the bus for thinking they’re going to get elected. That child deserves our support. Don’t worry about the pollsters calling it distractions, because we need to be the party of human dignity.”
Minnesota Star Tribune@startribune.com ⋅ 21h
Gov. Tim Walz is doubling down on trans rights — and criticizing members of his party who are retreating — at a time when the issue has become a political lightning rod nationally and back home in Minnesota.
they managed to get the arms and thighs to be different grays, which I wasn't sure they'd be able to do, the way the mold's set up
though maybe they're just producing a lot of extra thighs and/or arms in the wrong colors and throwing those away, i dunno
Minnesota Star Tribune @startribune.com ⋅ 21h
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
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there’s also streaking!
*Joyce literally dies of embarrassment*
*funeral is held in Galasso’s*
Isn’t it still winter in Indiana?
She’d better streak fast, because if the embarrassment doesn’t catch up with her, the hypothermia will be right on its heels.
Depends. If she’s streaking with the wind, she can cut down on windchill, but if going against it, she’ll increase windchill. There’s likely a function we can derive for her ideal velocity in relation to wind speed, direction, and the course she intends to follow, to compute if she should be streaking fast or slow. Also, velociraptors.
But will she be able to run while holding her coconuts?
Sure, she could grip them by the husk!
As long as she is not migrating.
Streaking at my college in Upstate New York was always done when there was snow on the ground. Hats and scarves were admissible.
Living in an upstate new york college town, the sight of naked college kids getting thrown into snow banks by their friends was always surreal.
she can escape the hypothermia
by utilizing the hypoteneuse
… or what’s a college _for_?
For pooping silly. No, wait, that’s a buttfor.
proving once again
the utility of the concept
of butttaco
It’s interesting that there seems to always be snow outside. I drove through Indiana in February this year, there wasn’t any. I’m guessing it’s still January in comic time, but I’m thinking that should be melting soon.
Meanwhile where I am it’s April 1 and it’s going to be almost 80 today. Ugh.
Just for a moment I thought you meant 80 celcius, then I remembered who I was talking to.
She shall be but the first of many bodies which shall form the foundation Galasso’s undying empire (of family-friendly restaurants).
Fools! We are here at Galasso’s Pizza (and subs, and funeral home) to pay respects to your wretched classmate, who left this earth too soon. Enjoy the catering, while you can!
My time at that other Indiana University, Purdue, included the Nude Olympics, which was basically a crowd streak on the coolest night of the year.
Panel 4 looks so heartfelt that even Dorothy is surprised.
Joyce is summing up a large portion of my social actions over the past several years and I’m unsure of how to feel about it.
On an unrelated note I was assessed for autism last week
I am guessing that was not a fun test.
On another unrelated note, I really like your cube icon. What exactly is it?
Eh, it was more bizzare than anything. “tell me a story based on five random objects,” “what are some things people do that annoy you,” “what’s going on in this picture book?” No idea how it went honestly.
And thank you! it’s a logo I designed for myself initial in sixth grade, then revamped in 10th grade. It’s vaguely supposed to be
1. a planet in the top with a sign
2. a bunch of binary that doesn’t actually mean anything on the left
3. recursive cubes on the right
That is cool. I especially like the idea of it being fractal in nature (I think that term applies, anyway). Thanks for sharing.
Welcome aboard. *hugs* You’re sure everthing will be better after your diagnosis.
so did they tell you whether you passed or failed?
Sooooo……monogamy is the only thing stopping Joyce from banging Dorothy?
ChatDYW, is this real? Dorothy/Joyce slipshine to come?According to this strip it’s the only thing stopping her from having an orgy that Dorothy is part of.
Yeah. Being part of the same orgy doesn’t mean they would be involved with each other. They could simply encourage each other, maybe even hold hands like they did in the laundry room.
I mean being real I think if Walky was invited to the orgy, Joyce wouldn’t be cool with it anymore, he’s too annoying.
The realization that she had sex with Walky via proxy would be hilarious though.
Even though we already debunked that one.
I don’t know somehow that scenario seems even gayer than if they fucked.
They’re knee-deep in gay already, might as well lean in
In the bisexual.
And possibly wind up elbow deep in gay.
sweetest orgy pix EVAR
Becky/Dina/Joyce/Dorothy would somehow be the most wholesome orgy in history.
Dorothy tries to set it up in the most high detail planned way possible, Becky suggests just going with the flow, Dina starts trying to augment both suggestions based on mating rituals and social behaviors she had studied for the occasion, and Joyce simply asks if they can start by all four holding hands on top of the machines in the Laundry Room, leading Becky to ask about that oddly specific suggestion.
Both Joyce and Dorothy avoid looking directly into Becky’s eyes.
I mean we just saw Dorothy’s bubble butt, now someone gotta break it in
There is no other way to take this.
HEY JOE! Get the frick over here and give Joyce your consent for her to participate in an orgy or lesbian sex if she wishes.
There’s Dorothy’s heterosexuality.
I want to make a joke but I”ll get eviscerated if I say it…
Where? (“Where Dorothy heterosexuality?”)
Looking at Dorothy’s face in the last panel, she’s completely aware of the subtext.
Like. Joyce has always given me baby bi or at least bi-curious vibes.
Dorothy has never read as anything but a straight girl and a decent ally to me. It’s bewildering that people read her as into Joyce- especially in the same comment sections pointing out she’s basically just mom-friending Joyce in a lot of those same strips.
Even the ‘ha-ha they’re mistaken as a lesbian couple’ strip didn’t change my opinion on how Dotty reads- just Joyce.
Honestly it’s more like a cute joke to me at this point to ship them mainly because these moments keep happening. Even though I think Joyce is at least questioning by now, shes’s so repressed I don’t think she’ll realize she might like girls until her mid thirties likely already happily married to some great guy. Dorothy of course has stated she’s straight and I respect that, I really do think Joyce would be the exception. The masturbation lesson kind of solidified that more to me even if it’s not a sexual attraction in nature. She dreams about Joyce while not wearing pants, has moments of jealousy over her affection much like Becky, and even have a casual level of skin-ship well beyond most friendship levels. There’s something there beyond being the mom friend even if she doesn’t realize it. But I do also just find it cute.
Dorothy’s what now?
That’s not something that matters.
Hmm… what are the betting odds on this night ending with drunk Joyce and Dorothy asking Joe for a threesome? I know Dorothy hates Joe right now but hate is an attractive force, I suspect especially when you’re drunk.
That would hurt Joe so much, the girls better not do it,
I give 10:1 odds against. And if it happened, Joe’s mind would start spinning so fast he’d probably have a seizure.
I love Joyce
this is sweet
Go Joyce Go!
To be fair, Joyce has already gone through most of the other ‘college things’ already. Subverting authority, crisis of faith, kissed a girl…
I mean, if we’re being technical, she hasn’t kissed a girl (yet? unclear)–she was kissed *by* a girl without her permission. Slight difference
But did she like it?
Not enough to ever repeat or initiate it since, so… that’s a no.
but JOYCE SAID she did!
Dorothy: No, Joyce! You have to be the fragile young girl I protect from the world! I don’t have anything else!
Having a lesbian fling is much more “a college” than an orgy.
Just sayin’.
perfect avatar for this one.
It’s the funniest comment for today. Period.
…and that makes three of us.
Hello there for all members of Trinity
The joke being that all three avatars represent women loving women. Only we two posted at the same time. So now there’s four of us.
Oh, Joyce, this is precious
Dumbing of Age Book 14: Now Let’s Go Commit Something Mildly Subversive Whic-… Waaaaaaiiiiit a minute….
I really do love these two.
I hate it when characters lean on the fourth wall, who the heck talks about humanizing themselves by doing mildly transgressive things?
it would be more natural to say “this will be a funny story to tell in the future”
Joyce is quoting an earlier line from Dorothy, who was talking about it being a humanizing anecdote when she’s running for office in the future.
Yeah, it was even the title of Book 9.
Which made it very easy for Willis to remember/find the exact quote.
(I turned around to my bookshelf to verify its exactness)
I hate it when characters
I hate
I
I hate, therefore I am?
Odi, ergo sum?
I hate, therefore I am a webcomic commenter
When characters hate it I
I do this kind of shit all the time, honestly. But I’m a writer so weird meta commentary on my own life is something I’m obligated to do.
I mean, who doesn’t narrate their own life out loud when no one’s around?
I do. By using language whose connotations or level of formality are ill-suited to the present topic, or which is in some other way noticeably incorrect while still being clearly understandable, a comedy is produced.
I too have found/created humor with my level of language formality mismatched to the context. Mismatched register if you will. It’s amusing. Did I hear someone say this was not funny? ?? Maybe I just entertain myself. But I’m pleased to hear that it’s a ND thing.
like, yo, man – ebonics be SAVED!!
–Dave, in life it hath found a purpose finally
Have you meet Joyce? It was perfectly in-character.
This feels entirely natural for Joyce to say and honestly I really like seeing characters speak in this manner as somebody who’s autistic. I legit feel “seen” with this kind of dialogue.
Interesting. I also feel seen, but I hadn’t realized that most people *didn’t* use mismatched register for humorous effect. Huh.
Nthing talking exactly this oddly, and yeah it hit zero discordant notes as a line from Joyce personally.
I just wish some folks had a better grasp on what the fourth wall is
Damn you Willis, stop breaking the fourth wall by commenting on your own comic! What will you do next?! WRITE the comic?!? All this meta cr*p is getting out of control…
Optional? Metaphorical? Imaginary? Transdimensional? The fifth wall out of order?
Am I getting closer?
I think Willis’s complaint is that a LOT of people seem to think that any instance of a character saying something they wouldn’t personally say is breaking the fourth wall.
Yeah, orgy vs booze isn’t the broadest choice.
she forgot about arson
Wait. Arson is part of the college experience? Where did you go to college? (Or not go as the case may be.)
Norwich in VT. Dumpsters get set on fire every year around graduation.
I didn’t go to Norwich, but my uncle worked in the physics dept and one of my cousins sis go there
The University College of Gävle
Depending on the type of orgy you go too, you might find more broads then in a bar.
You know, Joyce, orgies can be mildly subversive and deeply humanizing incidents! Plus I think Joe would be cool with polyamory!
You know, once you get polyamory fully explained to you by Sierra. While hyperventilating into a bag and psyching yourself up for a threesome. Several weeks before even broaching the idea of a threesome.
Sierra might even explain that polyamory is not a synonym for group sex.
Seems like a good place to repost this all-but-canon, barely NSFW Gray-mand-ierra dialogue
that is super cute
Well, yeah, absolutely. The orgy and the “hey Joe I would like to also bite Dorothy on the heinie I think” being separate but related factors.
“Um, yeah, that’s a normal response,” replies Joe
~polyamory doesn’t mean threesomes~
Polyamory doesn’t ~necessarily~ mean threesomes.
~threesomes don’t mean polyamory~
–Dave, sometimes there’s just nowhere else to go on a Friday night
This.
Being bisexual also doesn’t necessarily mean threesomes, but shippers who say “this character is bi and has two hands” aren’t making a sweeping statement about bi people OR polyamorous people. They’re making a specific statement about that specific character and how much they want that character to make out with more than one other character at the same time.
It’s not a stereotype it’s just shipping.
I actually don’t think Joe would be cool with polyamory. I think he would try to be cool with it for Joyce but ultimately he would feel neglected and hurt.
However I do think he has thought about this threesome before.
still re-reading
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-10/01-birthday-pursuit/ding/
i love harrison he was so cute lol bring him back
bebeh!
They have orgies in college?
God I really missed out
They call them “toga parties” to confuse you
It’s the natural end state of “Truth or Dare”
Yet another reason I’m furious at having gone to BYU.
You’d get kicked out of school for such behavior.
When Joyce finally proposes to Dorothy, it’s gonna sound a lot like Panel 3, and I hope I live to see it. xD
My hopes are high, yet my expectations are low.
if Dorothy was accurate in the last panel, then I’m certainly disappointed.
it’d prolly be throwing too much at it as well, but be interesting if it’s like “where are we gonna get the alcohol?” “oh i’ll just ask my older brother i’ve been putting off talking to him” and then they can have a heart to heart buzzed convo about her sibling coming out as trans (but realistically that storyline might take a while to get to assuming joceylene comes back in the pic anytime soon)
I really like that scene of them running down the hall. The art itself looks good and they as characters are looking good.
Yes, there is really good energy. The next panel looks cool too, interesting grab and lean. The art is looking great.
I’ve never been to an actual IRL orgy, but if they’re anything like the ERP parties in Final Fantasy XIV, I’m not missing much.
(ERP stands for Elloquintly Ritten Porn (because nobody can fucking type))
Orgies aren’t generally the best sex, but they’re human contact with lowered inhibitions. Worth it, in my book, at least a few times in your life.
Yes, this, and agreed.
I have, just once. Just so happened to be in the vicinity of a group climbing into a tent, got invited, and was like “waiiiiiit, that’s actually a thing irl people just randomly do? Guess I’ll have to find out what that’s like, you know, for science”
… It was okay. Mostly interesting for the unusualness.
Dunno, sounds like the kind of thing you’d like to try at least once, ’cause if there’s something that’s more “cutting loose and having fun” than being in a group of people being uninhibited about the most policed behaviour in society, I haven’t heard of it.
At least if you don’t panic when touched. I talk a big game about the theory of it, but I’m not doing anything myself until I get past that particular hurdle, neurodiversity be damned.
Don’t love this “not safe for you” energy unless it results in a Realization of how that energy is MISDIRECTED ROMANTIC FEELINGS
Yes. Experimenting with [triggers] in situations under your own control is a great thing to do when you’re ready.
Yeah, it’s pretty shitty to suggest Joyce is especially vulnerable to being assaulted because she was previously drugged while drinking Sierra Mist.
I guess it’s from Dorothy’s blaming herself for everything bad that’s happened, but I still don’t like how she’s talking down to Joyce in panel 1. It’s her treating Joyce like a project, distilled.
Yes, we must admit that although Dorothy is not bad, she has this habit of seeing people as projects, although I dare say that this could be the opportunity for her to see it from a new angle.
I hope Joyce isn’t saying anything about it because she’s trying to get Dorothy to open up about what’s on her mind. Because it would make me feel like this: https://www.dumbingofage.com/coat/
Curious that in the next strip, Joyce was very rude to Dorothy.
yes, Joyce should have looked for drawing classes herself.
Ideally, she is making up for it now, getting Dorothy to see things from that new angle. Start getting a healthier friendship.
That’s what matters now. It’s good to see that at least you saw that Joyce has had her unpleasant moments too.
Its fun when you realize that she’s basically had sexual attraction to every “Project person” so far.
And they put her on a pedestal, indulging in her presidential delusions. She might have to get a new type.
Having that ‘PLEASE let this one turn out more funny than sad’ moment.
Anyone know what strip Joyce was quoting in panel 3? I will go back and try to find it, but there are a lot of comics at this point so it might take a while.
I feel like it was either something Dorothy said in the past, or something Roz said while roasting Dorothy.
Here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/01-flyin-to-the-red/subterfuge/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/01-flyin-to-the-red/subterfuge/
It was also the title of book 9.
Beat to it by seconds.
It’s shit like this is why Joyce is my favorite character, and why I think she deserves better friends than the likes of Dorothy and Sarah. She should hang out with Sal more, Sal won’t bullshit her.
I feel like half the appeal of Joyce’s character is specifically that she makes friends with people who aren’t exactly prime friend material.
Well, yeah. She’s extremely Christlike. It’s why Christianity was, ultimately, not for her.
Sent me off on a train of thought based on calling her Christlike when she’s a partial a self-insert from the author.
Also amused me as an autistic woman with a lot of traits in common with Joyce to examine the idea that Christ could read as autistic. Strong sense of Justice, stubborn adherence to principals, non-compliance to more common social rules, hangs out with other ND people in found family, etc
(not a serious claim, just interesting to contemplate)
Yeah, there have been several kerfuffles here over comments to the effect of “Wow, the atheist is better at following religious tenets than the self-proclaimed believers.”
Dorothy and Sarah of course made mistakes, but for that reason alone many assume that this is a “valid reason” to classify them as terrible friends and that Joyce is looking for “real friends”, that honestly doesn’t seem fair to me.
Very rarely does a “bad friend” chaise an assailant with a baseball bat for you. I’m sure it comes up, because that’s behavior which would be somewhat more common among bad people. But, still!
I mean, that’s a broad stroke to make. And I say that as someone who once had Sarah as one of my fave characters. She does grand gestures to protect. But is otherwise kind of genuinely awful.
Yup, this. Her whole shtick is to swoop in in an crisis and Take Care of Everything, but when it comes to the day to day issues she kinda sucks at dealing with it yet blames others for her own inability to manage. She’s not that different from Jennifer in that regard.
Let’s not forget the conversation Joyce and Sarah had where Joyce explicitly said “The little stuff matters, too.” And the little stuff does matter. I think Sarah does mean well deep in her core, she’s not evil or a villain, but “I do the big stuff and that makes me being mean about little stuff okay” smacks of and will always smack of an abusive relationship.
Yuuuuup.
little stuff, like waiting for her to walk to class together, even though they have classes in different buildings.
I mean, people make bad-faith readings of Joyce all the time based on single strips, so let me dunk on Dorothy and Sarah based on (realtime) years of their condescending, even controlling behavior. It’s only fair, I think.
This isn’t to say that they’re bad people, or even necessarily irredeemably bad friends, but they, like Jennifer, seem to think they’ve Totally Masterized Adulthood and are quite condescending to people they think are childlike, like Joyce and Dina. And I speak from experience when I talk about how damaging and insulting it is. I’ve had people treat me like a child my entire life — even romantic relationships. Some people will choose to remember only the version of you they had the most power over, no matter how long it’s been or how much you’ve changed.
I agree, and for me at least the controlling/infantilizing behavior from these ‘I am better than you because X’ types is particularly galling when you realize that actually, Dina and Joyce have their stuff together better than most.
Well, at least this is a constructive comment. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t hate Joyce, it’s just that some gave her an image of a “tragic figure who deserves the love of the universe, who should be tolerated for her mistakes against the evil world”, because of that detail, it made me It’s been difficult to take your progress seriously.
Yes, I know that she is the main character, but I feel that she has been doing very well recently (too well) and I would love to see a conflict that actually manifests a negative aspect where they stop putting her as a character who “has learned everything.” ”
and her facet is also judged.
Now, regarding the others. Sarah has at least tried not to be harsh with her comments towards Joyce, with the rest she still expresses herself in a bad way, but it seems that even little by little she already wants to do things right.
Jennifer has certain really positive details, but that damn, inflated ego makes many (myself included) see her in an unwelcome way. I assure you that if suddenly, I don’t know, she has financial problems and tries to seek help from Raidah , this one is going to leave her aside and pretend not to know her, that would be a reality check that could make her finally open her eyes.
When it comes to judging the characters, Dorothy is the one who always points the finger most severely at, god, they already assumed that she would be responsible for ruining Joe and Joyce’s relationship, but she stopped herself and accepted it, In addition to the fact that she has taken more time to see her problems, some have already softened in how they have treated her and I dare say it, she seems that little by little she has already taken small steps, and although it is not so significant, at least Ruth, Walky and surprisingly Jennifer, have helped her a little, yes, Joyce can help, go ahead, let’s just hope that now finally Dorothy doesn’t have to be on top of everyone 24/7.
All this is just my opinion, it’s just that I constantly noticed those details that I just wanted to express it.
So, I’m starting to realize that Dorothy’s attitude towards Joyce isn’t actually just condescending overprotection so much as it is genuine trauma from the original incident at the party.
Well, the nightmare revealed that the kidnapping incident was the high point, but perhaps the party was just small indications that Dorothy wanted to “correct her mistake.”
yes.
condescending overprotection is her trauma response.
as well as her love language?
It is her version of hitting someone in the face with a pie.
you realize Carla just … knows
when we’re talking about her
If being completely oblivious to the extent of your trauma was a sport Dorothy would be going to the Olympics.
It can be both of those things
Oh, good point I hadn’t considered. She must be terrified of something bad happening again.
Joyce is someone who Dorothy feels protective over, so whenever something bad happens it’s her “failure” that it did, and not the simple chaotic chance of existence.
For what it’s worth, while I’m not a college student, my wife is autistic in similar ways to Joyce and over time I start to piece together that oh wow I am absolutely Dorothy aren’t I? It is not a fun place to be to think if you aren’t on your guard at all times then tragedy will strike. It makes you insane and burns you out.
Oh RIGHT we had that whole dream sequence specifically about how Dorothy’s numerous compounding traumas are all centered on Joyce, huh. Honestly forgot about that, it’s been a hot minute.
Dumbing of Age Book 14: Change With Me, Dorothy!
Joyce, I’m pretty sure Joe would be down for an orgy if you asked. Or even just cool with you being in one if him being there would be weird for Dorothy. Point being, Joe just wants you to be happy and if that involves drunken group sex with his ex-bestie-in-law then so be it. As long as you ask first; cheating is bad.
Hear hear!
Honestly, I think New Joe would not be down for this. His whole deal before was trying to ham fist ethical non monogamy into some kind of 80’s movie ideal to cover his feelings of self hatred and fear of hurting people.
^ This.
I don’t even think Joe is horny for Joyce with the same part of his brain that he’s horny for everyone else. I think mixing them at this point would turbo charge his self=hatred.
Yeah, Joe’s dealing with a massive amount of self-loathing related to his previous attitude and actions towards sex. I’m kinda weirded out that folks think he’d be down with Joyce asking him to take part in an orgy. Makes me wonder if we’re reading the same comic, or at least reading it the same way.
Nobody thinks that, you’re making it up.
I’m like 80% sure you’re being sarcastic but text makes tone hard to read
“Taffy” basically works as an implied /s tag for me at this point.
Yeah that’s probably the safest read.
This is actually a really great way of summing up Joe’s whole deal prior to the List Incident.
I think he might take an issue with it given they haven’t had sex yet themselves and an orgy would be a high intensity/demand way to have sex for the first time.
Personally, I think Joe wouldn’t ACTUALLY be okay with it, deep down, but he’d still tell Joyce that he is. Partly because he’d be terrified of losing her if he said no, and partly because he’s only very recently admitted to himself that romance is something he wants at all, so it’ll take a lot more self-reflection before he’s willing to admit that he wants monogamous romance in particular.
I’m glad we cleared up what’s holding back the. . . uh, orgy prevention?
There’s one factor that no one is talking about, which is “do we have enough mac and cheese for all the attendees?”
I know practically speaking an orgy would generally have to have food present, but talking about food and sex in the same sentence makes my brain imagine them combined, and mac and cheese sex is a particularly unpleasant image.
RE: Last panel, sure, I believe you.
(comment #69, count them if you also bored)
Are you counting replies? Because those aren’t all ordered chronologically. Not counting them, you’re #32.
each comment has an id number, used for linking directly. You can copy the link for the OP comments from the # before Reply Report Comment. But even replies have an id. Yours is comment-1786313. NGPZ’s is comment-1786306, and Ana’s first comment is 1786238. 1786306-1786237 = 69
Nice
It’s not safe for you might just be Dorothy talking about herself
Dorothy is infantilizing Joyce pretty hard, overstepping her bounds. Joyce isn’t any less safe experimenting with alcohol than any of their peers, especially not with trusted friends present. Jennifer was right; the roofie incident had nothing to do with alcohol.
Yeah, i gotta agree here. Can’t say that Joyce jumping out to get drunk is the best idea but if she wants to, she can find ways to do it (relatively) safely. I can’t be too mad though because the rest of this is at it’s heart adorable…
I think that was mostly just for baiting Dorothy. “WELP, I’m going to go do something reckless and stupid and there’s nothing you can do to stop me so byeee!”
And it worked.
Which is I think part of the point Joyce is making. Or at least where the storyline is going. Dorothy doesn’t need to control things. If Joyce thinks having a few drinks to blow off steam for Dorothy is going to help then that’s what she is going to do.
That might have been Dorothy’s first real experience with alcohol, and the roofie incident must have been terrifying. I think it got mixed up in her head emotionally. I think this is more about Dorothy’s anxieties than anything else. She sees herself as the person that keeps everyone safe, and this is bringing up memories of a time that she couldn’t.
Nah, she had wine with her parents in Paris and Jennifer-flask contents at Joyce’s party. She’s fine with alcohol for herself. For Joyce, she’s policing her alcohol the same way she was policing her sex life.
“Drinking a little wine with your parents” is not what I was going for. It was her first big college party where people were drinking without parental supervision, and something really bad almost happened. It would be stranger if she didn’t have anxiety about it.
Drinking from Jennifer’s flask happened later, after an alcohol-free party was orchestrated specifically because of this incident. If Joyce had decided to drink too it probably wouldn’t have brought up the same fears, because they were with people they trusted. Dorothy might have been threatened by Joyce stepping out of her usual role, but that is different from the specific fear on display right now.
oh no Joyce has discovered she still has BOUNDARIES
C’mon Joyce, there’s also the college thing where you try to fit as many people as you can in a phone booth. Do that!
… oh, wait, nm.
gee, Brain, where are we gonna find a phone booth
at this time of the millennium
Strong “let’s take ibuprofen together” energy here
“It’s either this or banging”
“:D”
“And I’m with Joe”
“:(“
This liberal SJW propaganda that women imbibe liquids
woke ultraleft DEI liberal unamerican CRT pro-Hamas drivel if you ask me
I missed out on orgies? All I ever got to do is take arrested unconscious underage drunken students to the medical center.
They started as semi coherent idiots who refused transport because they didn’t want their parents to find out. So Campus Security simply waited for them to pass out and arrested them for their own safety. That way if they woke bake up they couldn’t refuse.
That one speach bubble is a callback to an early book in the DoA series…
Is it just me or is Dotty pushing her trauma on Joyce? Because… alcohol is not dangerous to Joyce. It was the specific situation that was dangerous, not alcohol itself but Dotty is acting like Joyce drinking will immediately summon creeps.
That’s how Joyce treated it, remember? People had pointed out alcohol had nothing to do with it but she was too traumatized and kept getting defensive when it was brought up. Joyce hasn’t imbibed because I think somewhere in her fundamentalist brain she still kind of associates her “sin” of partying the only way she knows how, but she’s far enough away from it now (and Ryan is probably going to jail, still in stitches, or both) that she can let it go for Dorothy.
This has been a problem I’ve had with the time skip. I’m expecting change on the scale of the first two months of the last semester, and in some ways that has happened but in others characters are completely static in ways they shouldn’t be. It stands out even more in the way that they immediately begin changing once we returned to action. I don’t know, maybe it’s the soft character reset that’s throwing me.
I mean, this is Dorothy. She doesn’t like letting go. Joyce has thrived in the aftermath of Ryan getting the shit kicked out of him by Amber. I think it’s pretty fitting that Dorothy hasn’t changed and she needs to, and Joyce has evolved greatly to the point of leaving her behind a little.
I’d like to point out that Dorothy was right there and watched the shit get kicked out of him, and was a little bit traumatized by it; in the immediate aftermath, Joyce thanked Amber for doing it, and Dorothy withdrew a bit from her.
Ah that’s how it was, it was so long ago I forgot.
So much happens in this comic and it’s been like 15 years. I have the same issue but I also get high once in a while and re-read my favorite parts so it helps to remember.
Willis, please, I’m begging you, stop teasing us like that.
I think that ship is dead and buried and every so often, the creator just likes to stroll by and tamp the dirt down a bit.
Look, if people didn’t want to be teased like this, they wouldn’t have such hilarious reactions in the comics every time Dorothy and/or Joyce bring up anything sex- and/or romance-related!
comments*
On one hand, Dorothy that’s incredibly patronising and it’s about time you realize it. On the other hand, Joyce what the fuck ?
I feel like Joyce’s experiences with college are once more being affected by the company she keeps.
Because she knows there’s a polyamorous sexy times trio on her floor.
So, of course, she thinks “orgies” are normal.
Hm. Sounds like a book title.
There’s more to college life than binge drinking and sex parties, Joyce.
There’s also weed. And DnD.
… orgies can contain all of these components
i mean, we can _probably_ ask Joe about it
The mention of “Monogamous” makes me wonder if Joyce might end up in a polyamorous relationship with Joe and Dorothy. It’s not likely, I know, but it could happen.
oh I absolutely agree
I don’t know if Dorothy will be involved, but I’m calling it now that this is foreshadowing that Joyce is gonna end up as polyamorous
(if I’m wrong, meh, but if I’m right it’s going to be so nice to get new poly rep ♡)
poly-woly-doodle all the day!
–Dave, USING those braincells that have been sitting there untouched for half a century
Like most things I’ve got issues with, also religion and the Beatles, I wouldn’t find Joyothy-baiting nearly as funny if people weren’t insufferable about it in the first place.
BohNo, how do you feel about being gifted/cursed with the curse/gift of prophecy?
Meanwhile, in the Slipshine alternate universe…
Pff, you say you’d do anything for her, but then also turn down the orgy?
For her. Not to her. A very important distinction I think, lol.
She reminded Dorothy’s words. That’s so sweet
Ah, but the mild subversion back then was trying to slip past Ruth.
This will be a wild subversion. What’s the plan, anyway?
Joyce had that one awful, terrifying experience and the only appropriate reaction is to NEVER DRINK AGAIN (-ain, -ain, -ain…)? How does that track?
It is a pretty common and normal trauma reaction for things associated with that trauma to become triggers, making you unable to participate on them without emotional distress. Just because it doesn’t seem to be the case for Joyce doesn’t mean it’s not a logical conclusion to make.
I’m with you. One traumatic experience does not mean all alcohol forever is scary, and if someone is like “Hey! I’m gonna go do this thing I found traumatic, come make a bad decision with me!” you don’t run all over it “BUT JOYCE, YOU HAVE TRAUMA!!”
No! You sit down with them, go “This is a terrible idea” and you do that terrible idea together, laugh, and make it less traumatic.
Dorothy clearly has trauma about it too. She stopped watching Joyce for a few minutes and something REALLY BAD almost happened. Of course that’s terrifying.
Joyce is an amazing friend. Dorothy really needs to follow her for once and see what weird adventure they will have. I still think the possibility of Dorothy getting drunk and confessing her love for her to Joyce is a big possibility.
as the panel frames start slowly distorting as they race down the hall
–Dave, *Little Nemo intensifies*
I’m fairly certain that if Joyce asked, Joe would down for an orgy, but only if she was, of course.