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T Campbell, John Waltrip, Florence Machina
Welcome to the saga of the working-class adventurer! Enjoy the complete story with new annotations daily!
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David M Willis
Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
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Rhea Snaketail returns from the dead, befriending a Demon who falls in love with an Angel. The afterlife ain't what it used to be!
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This comic is about a robot powered by bees, but it's also about the kind of people who think filling a robot with bees is a good idea, and why they're wrong.
Cyanide & Happiness
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Satire, dark humor and surreal humor.
Mac Hall
Matt Boyd
The legendary early-aughts webcomic that inspired a wave of webcomic creators.
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It’s a hilarious time, and possibly also a necessary one– these seem to be the kinds of things Dorothy has struggled to say when just spending time with Joyce, or when just hanging out with anyone. Like she needs something else to be going on to not get hung up on every word she’s about to say and how that might be perceived.
Of course, we’ll see how well that goes now that Joyce jas picked up on something she said.
Totally agree. Being in the midst of all this is forcing the internal conflict to the front of Dorothy’s mind, she’s being pulled along and doesn’t have to make eye contact, there’s a task at hand dividing her and Joyce’s attention, she’s in the process of coming to terms with having feelings for Joyce… it’s the perfect time to have this conversation xD which I say half jokingly, because maybe it’s not the best time to make big revelations, but sometimes it’s the right time because it’s the only possible time.
julia: “i’m quitting being a military pilot! the government is bad!”
doris: “and i’m also quitting being president!”
julia: “we’re going to fight the space vampires as unaccountable vigilantes!”
doris: “yeah we’re–wait i dunno if that’s better”
barrence o’rigby: “it’s not, and here’s why”
I think that, frankly, Dorothy is very afraid right now, and that confessing some of her revelations she’s had about where she was naive and lacked conviction is probably bringing her some comfort.
Sometimes, you say things because you recognize that you may not get the opportunity to do so later, whether something happens to separate them or she simply loses the nerve.
i know intellectually that any vocalization while in custody runs risk of you saying something incriminating because spontaneous dialogue is hard to plan
but i’m just imagining joyce and dorothy talking out their crush in a jail cell and whoever’s surveilling them determining their huge gay feelings are admissible evidence
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I would not like to see the girl make out with the other girl right now. (Especially now that the boy is showing some character growth.)
Not really. What’s it interfering with? They’re not in immediate danger, in the sense that she’s distracting them from dodging bullets or something. Nor are they actually here to protest, so the politics don’t really matter.
And they can talk and scan the crowd for Jocelyne at the same time.
Does say a lot, doesn’t it? When neither Walky nor Danny could keep her from Yale, but Joyce did make her decide not to go. Of course there’s a lot of other things happening there too… but also… Joyce.
Dorothy is referencing a pretty famous quote from MLK about white moderates that prefer order/peace to justice where he calls them nearly a greater stumbling block to black emancipation than the avowed racist.
And before people get too up in arms about this: Dorothy’s outright stating that this mentality she has is wrong. That’s what she means by it being her “Lizard-Brain” thinking this, that she knows its the wrong thing to think and she can’t help but think it.
Yes to both of these. Have to brace myself for the inevitable ‘missing the point’. People who hate her seem to most hate her when she’s sincere and vulnerable; if they can twist her words against her, they will
Yes, this is important. She is recognizing that this is her instinct and recognizing that that is a bad thing. That she has a moral imperative to fight that instinct and go the other direction.
Yeah, she’s basically saying that it’s not her ideals or her rational thought that leads her to shying away from confrontation and sticking her neck out like this, it’s fear and hoping for a frictionless way towards progress.
It makes sense that her confronting this aspect of herself is part of the change she’s undergoing, facing the reality that her fantasy of being a president that’d just make wise judgments as if she were King Solomon or something and avoid the worst outcomes or most morally dubious decisions, has been a big part of her crisis of faith and crisis of self she’s undergone, and of course, there’s the Joyce factor in all of it, too.
‘I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.’
LBJ, in his 1965 speech to Congress demanding that they pass the Voting Rights Act, after a civil rights march in Selma was met with terrible violence by the police and others:
“In Selma as elsewhere we seek and pray for peace. We seek order. We seek unity. But we will not accept the peace of stifled rights, or the order imposed by fear, or the unity that stifles protest. For peace cannot be purchased at the cost of liberty.”
but yeah brotha MLK just said it as it is, and if he were alive today would probably give Dorothy a *thorough* talking to, (and probably kick her ass at billiards while he’s at it)
Oddly, Wilson was a virulent racist. When he became president, he fired every black employee of the federal government but one. He said the racist screed “Birth of a Nation” was history written with lightning.
A reminder that the Treaty of Versailles also was an utter disaster because Wilson ignored every single actual issue of it to try to push through the League of Nations, including anything from non-white participants. Which really pissed off Japan.
let’s be real here, no president of the 21st century was really “non-racist” in the way white people like to imagine, nor any party at the time (spare Communist Party USA) would let people of color into their ranks at all
for brothas voting was (and still is) about picking whichever ignorant white people we could extract more from and whose election would result in the least number of us prematurely *dying*
And even with that, it’s not so much about racism as a personal flaw of Presidents, as about racism as a structural element in American politics. Whatever their personal feelings, to reach the level of President, politicians had to deal with a deeply racist American public.
In the first part of the 20th century Democrats had the support of Southern segregationists as long as they didn’t rock the boat too much. In the latter part, Republicans fanned racism to appeal to and broaden that voting bloc, while Democrats tried to walk the line of doing enough to keep black voter support while not scaring away so many whites they couldn’t win.
yeah what you’re describing is the great political re-alignment which happened in the 1970s when disgruntled social conservatives and racists in the South who were former democrat moved to the Republican Party, culminating in the late 1980s where the latter’s solidified their strategy was basically “if you can’t get the people to vote for your party, get them to vote against the other”.
at this point the Democratic Party was caught in an awkward spot in the electoral college meta where they pretty much lost the south to Republicans and hadn’t yet figured out how to win without it
heck like vote for who you vote for to mitigate the damage done by the government (which honestly didn’t even meet our needs so well even BEFORE it became so obviously broken), but like
ultimately a government by the people for the people is pointless if “”the”” people are not willing to do the actual work needed to make free fair society happen
¯\_(‘_’)_/¯
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
– Letter from a Birmingham Jail
Yes. I don’t think she’s saying she prefers peace and uninvolvement like it’s a positive trait. I think she’s evaluating what it means that she was willing to just go along to get along at the expense of other people and herself.
Protesting is playing nice, of course. You can hold up all the angry signs you want, yell as loud as you want, but it’s still the nice response that the government and corporations (a tautology, I know) should be thankful for daily, lest the not-nice options be brought out. Maybe we’re being a little too lenient with that not-nice option, nowadays.
Kind of like workers going on strike. No one’s going to like it if we go back what was done before the version where we play nice but damned if the people in power don’t seem to be making sure that’s the only option left that will work.
Never forget that potential union leaders are still assassinated regularly by corporations all around the globe. If multi-billion dollar global companies, are willing to commit several felonies to prevent unionizing from occurring, even in small, remote areas of the world, it’s because unionizing works. The powerful only seek to destroy the things they fear might unseat their power.
As pride month comes to a close we are pushed to remember that the reason the first Pride was needed was police brutality Right as it was happening for the crime of existing, and the solemn act of the first Pride was a brick to a bad gay-bashing cop’s face. So protest peacefully but have a brick in hand just in case.
I appreciate Dorothy’s awkwardness here. Its something that a lot of progressives from privileged backgrounds need to deal with.
We don’t want protests to be happening. That a protest is happening is bad, because its generally a sign that shit’s fucked in some regard.
That’s why its important to have around. Even when the stated reasons for the protests are unambiguously wrong (like when homophobic/transphobic douchebags are complaining that gay people exist, or when people start trying to protest vaccines being required to prevent people from fucking dying), them happening is still a way to tell that people are indeed angry about a thing, and *something* about that anger needs to be dealt with (even if its just improving education on the subject).
But it can still be supremely awkward and uncomfortable to see when you’re young. There’s a lot of context that you’re missing, especially if you come from a situation that hasn’t needed to protest for much on the whole.
Its an important subject to broach and deal with, and I kinda hope that it doesn’t become too overwhelmed by Dorothy admitting that she’s maybe-sabotaging her future prospects because she’s Totally “Platonically” Horny for Joyce…
I mean, you might not necessarily have ended up a tool of the establishment. You could have ended up running a bookstore, going out of business, and getting bodyjacked by a would-be world conqueror from outer space.
…which I suppose also counts as being a tool of a corrupt authoritarian government, of sorts. Nvm
It’s almost like she has some sort of, I don’t know, internalized ethical obsession, where everything must always be Just So, based on her rigid internal rules for herself. Anything she does can’t be even slightly wrong, or she deserves to be punished and castigated for it. She must always remain morally pure at all times.
Can’t imagine why Joyce and Dorothy share this exact trait conspicuously in common…
I love how Dorothy just can’t stop spilling her guts to Joyce lately. the cat is sliding out of the bag and she’s just helpless to stop it no matter how hard she tries.
If this was any other comic I’d call this level of “will they/won’t they” queerbating, but considering how much toxic/”it’s complicated” yuri we’ve gotten I’m just waiting for the other shoe to finish dropping.
I don’t think anything in this comic can really be queer-baiting, it’s a queer comic full of queer teens written by a queer person. The strip is full of openly queer characters. What are we baiting?
OK i gotta talk about this now. Jorothy became inevitable the moment Willis dropped the word queerbaiting in the comic. Like by that point there was literally no way Willis COULDN’T do something about Joyce and Dorothy. Though it reasons to stand it was already in full motion by then but name dropping queer baiting and then not following up on it ever would be an insane move. It’s been a ticking time-bomb for sometime now because of that.
I think a lot of this whole post timeskip saga has effectively been the dangers of Queerbaiting. Neither wants to spit out they have genuine feelings for each other and Joyce seems fine playing pretend and getting a taste test of the real thing while Dorothy’s entire life has been derailed by Joe just walking up to Joyce and asking her out while she can do nothing as if she just sealed herself into a coffin that’s been thrown onto the ocean.
Queerbaiting is how we got into this whole damn mess!!!
Fellas is it queerbaiting when my ship takes slightly too long to happen?
(No. What you are describing is just the normal pace of any piece of media where said romance is a major part of the long-term plot of the story. Indeed, in most romance fiction, the couple doesn’t actually get together until the very end.)
crackpot theory time. Something happened during the timeskip that really sparked something for Dorothy re: Joyce. All non-canonical porn and art happen in an AU where that spark doesn’t happen. Like Ruth and Jennifer walking in the snow, Ruth got some better advice than Dorothy’s on Halloween. Lucy works up the nerve to ask Walky out, they communicate better, and Walky gets non-conflicted advice, and that’s the AU where they fuck.
I call it Dumbiverse 1. Also, Robin didn’t take over Professor Nicholson’s class. When he heard Dorothy got into Yale and wouldn’t be coming to every office hours, he no longer wanted to escape into punditry.
Re: Alt text:
Of course, if a professional sport did something objectionable, you could always protest a pro contest. And if you were in support of that you would be pro-protest of a pro contest. But careful with your support, because if it was a fake demonstration done for publicity, you would be pro a con protest of a pro contest. You need to test the pro contest protest so protesting cons don’t con you; recon the protest to confirm it’s progressive and not confidentially pro-contest. Pro cons can be testing, but don’t consent to pro pro contest protest cons, and don’t let pro-con prose proliferate!
It’s funny considering that the version that Dorothy is describing to Joyce is essentially herself from the Walkyverse. That version of her had it rough, as she didn’t even make it to high office. Leaving out all the supernatural events like Head Alien, one would think that Dorothy could have turned out like her Walkyverse counterpart.
Dorothy is the kind of person who sees a protest get violent against/by violent racists and immediately thinks, “Man, I should call the cops to protect the protestors.”
Yeah, never call the cops on someone cops routinely kill for walking home. Unless they are on a killing spree, though you better be damn sure the killing spree isn’t against nazis that just killed their daughter. In that case, help, dday style.
My metric is “I only would call the cops on a situation, where I think their presence leads to an EV of fewer people I care about getting shot.”
As it turns out, this metric excludes nearly every possible situation a person can be in. Because the presence of cops pretty much always increases the chance somebody you love will be abused, maimed, or killed.
She’s acknowledging that there’s an animal instinct she has to avoid conflict, but that she’s growing, and left the path that was leading her to enforcing those institutions
There is a certain element of irony that Dorothy has found out her dreams were childish like Danny thought. Except now Danny has grown to respect them as legitimate.
It also is an illustration of her wanting to avoid conflict that she just hoped he’d go away when she went to college versus breaking up with him.
There’s something hilarious that Danny was basically right and got dragged for years because people thought Dotty was some powerhouse when she’s just pansexual Lisa Simpson.
I maintain that the #1 core reason everyone in this comments section has resolved that Dorothy is the actual living anti-christ made flesh on this earth, is that all those people bought into Dorothy’s bullshit implicitly, from the very start of the comic. Dorothy catches shit from everybody for not being perfect, because she’s the one who is supposed to be perfect. She said, so, repeatedly. So, every time she actually has a flaw or a character trait, she gets treated like a pariah, because everyone’s judging her actions and intentions from the perspective of the one kid who is “supposed to know better.”
The fact that Dorothy was always immature, self-deluding, and deeply unsustainable about everything she said or did, was kind of lost on some of the people who have been reading for a long time, and spent several years with Always Right Dorothy. But, Always Right Dorothy was never going to be sustainable. Autistic burnout, and sapphic obsession, comes for us all.
Serious question: when has Dorothy ever claimed to be perfect, rather than just exhibiting a lot of stress over failing to be perfect?
I mostly agree with your comment, with the caveat that I think a lot of readers, myself previously included, projected certain assumptions onto Dorothy based almost entirely on her limited and specific sexual experience and maturity, while failing to notice that most of the stuff she said on every single other topic was very obviously every bit as naive and sheltered as Joyce.
Don’t blame Joyce, you didn’t go to Yale because you were scared and started to not trust yourself. If it was just Joyce you could have seduced her into going to Yale with you.
There were also factors such as feeling guilt that the kidnapping improved her chances of being accepted into Yale, too. In general, I think it was a lot of factors, though wanting to watch over Joyce was part of it.
Dorothy seems to have made a lot of excuses for herself to avoid confronting a few things she seems to have realized unconsciously. Joyce certainly was a factor but also simply Dorothy doesn’t want the goal of Yale/Presidency or to leave her friends.
First of all, the main thing she’s been hiding has been that Joyce is a big part of why she’s not going to Yale anymore, her queer love for her friend has been the whole slow reveal of her arc
Second, she is literally telling Joyce right now that she’s changed her mind about wanting to go to Yale for her own reasons as well
Oh God I just imagined how much more insecure Becky would be if she was actually dating Joyce and GOD DAMN that would be unhealthy! Dina is kind of perfect for her?
My avatar is once again hella relevant. Please please if it was you who made it tell me because I forgot to jot it down and I need to give you credit.
Joyce’s Hand Holding of Truth is just too powerful. Also we’ve known who Dorothy is for ages and “I want peace, I don’t want… Justice” made me wince hard. ANYWAY. Way to interrupt her existential Crisis of Self by forking it into an existential Crisis of Sappho /o/ A++ storytelling, love these faces
damn I just concluded that Amber/Booster would be a really hot goblin ship, but I don’t think either of them would be remotely attracted to one another
I mean you definitely wouldn’t be with the police “right now” in that alternate reality, because you’d still be an 18 year old college student.
Unless she means, like, morally “with” the police? Which makes more sense, but I really don’t think it gives enough credit to pre-Joyce Dorothy. She wasn’t pro-police before she met Joyce.
She was pro-status-quo, and believed compromise could always be reached no matter where all sides started from. She probably would’ve looked at the protest as counterproductive to the cause it supports.
The one where she’s actively growing and starting to acknowledge that these ways she thought about things were bad? That she doesn’t want to be on a path towards presidency anymore because she’s recognized that it would mean she would be part of a bad system?
I never predict stuff in the comments. But to counteract the anti-Dorothys, I predict that if anyone is going to jail today, it will be Dorothy for doing something brave.
It will be Dorothy the second that cops lay a hand on Joyce, which we’re getting rapidly closer to the longer they’re fenced in at this protest. She might try to go full Dina on a bunch of cops, if they pull Joyce away.
The “best” part is, they also might assume that Joyce is Jocelyne, and that she’s actually more of a part of the movement, and in doing so, they might treat Joyce like she’s a trans woman.
Can’t believe how much fear gets injected into my fun comic when they decide to put the characters up against jack-booted wife-beating rapist fascist animals, or as people like Dorothy know them, The Police. I sincerely hope this situation doesn’t play out in a real-to-life fashion, or a lot of us in the comments are gonna be traumatized and heart-broken.
Leave a bag anywhere within reach* and a cat will put themselves in the bag. And then surprise you when it springs out. Or just fumbles itself around and you wonder for a moment if your bag is possessed.
*anywhere they can conceivably jump, climb, or claw open counts as “within reach”
Been there Dorothy, my 18 year old self’s politics were also pretty centrist and I wonder what I would have supported if my politics didn’t take the evolution they did
Exactly. Seems like a lot of people here must have been radical-left protestors and activists in high school and early college, and more power to them! As for me, I was one of the few leftists of Rural Echo-Chambersville, then got humbled by entering the world and seeing how much farther left there was to go. I can’t throw first stones here.
I was a pretty radical left protestor and activist in high school, writing letters to my congress people, organizing our GSA, arguing in front of the school board occasionally and…
…I don’t see what people’s problem is here. Dorothy is acknowledging that perspective was flawed and is working on fixing it. I’m not sure what anyone wants of an 18yo who is trying her best, but if that’s “perfection” then that’s some white leftist purity politics bullshit and they should get over it.
She’ll get there. Let her cook. Let her grow and change otherwise it’s a boring fucking story.
Yeah, what Dorothy is doing here is actually really hard. Many of us struggle with admitting the ways we fall short of our ideals, even to ourselves. But it’s harder to change that if you won’t admit it, easier to justify your actions rather than look critically at them.
Yeah, like, you’ll never find me at a protest for my causes. Because, duh. If I get murdered by a MAGA terrorist, my partner has nobody to take care of them when they’re old. My life is not disposable in the way that this society wants me to believe that it is. If cops and fascists are gonna be there, I avoid that place, the same way I avoid bears and moose. You aren’t supposed to physically challenge things that society deems are naturally allowed to kill you.
ally isn’t a noun, it’s a verb, it’s not so much about where ya currently at but about what ya doin to keep moving forward
also imma just say it as it is — emphasis on “”purity”” as opposed to progress and pluralizing is literally a right-wing tool
it’s just that not a lot of white people tend to notice because, let’s face it, that’s just the way our country’s overton window tends to lean by default, go figure 9-9
I’m fond of saying I moved from vaguely left of centre to, if not far left then certainly much further left than most Labour Party leaders in my lifetime, without actually changing my opinions. This is an exaggeration; my opinions have definitely shifted further left, if not as far as the definitions have shifted.
if the pandemic hadn’t turned the world and my life upside down, my physics career path could have taken me to Lockheed Martin or even the IDF on account of having not known any better at the time
… life would have looked very different had a random protein not folded a certain way on the opposite end of the globe to form the first Sars-2-Coronavirus, that much is certain
My political views have definitely moved to the left a lot from where they were when I was 18. And I’m glad of that, though I wish it had happened earlier.
I was always a commie in theory, but didn’t get involved in anything until a couple years ago.
One thing I constantly struggle with is, deep down, I wouldn’t care about politics if it was an option. I find organizing to be an unrewarding slog and I actually dislike a lot of my comrades. If things were just imperfect but tolerable, I would spend that time doing something else.
Everyone I’ve ever talked to who claimed to rely only on reason and logic was clearly being driven by unexamined emotions. And generally that pure reason and logic led to weird and usually dark places.
Maybe this is a bit intermediate psychology, but feelings are necessary to motivate anyone to take any action beyond muscle reflex territory. Why do you even bother to eat if you’re hungry unless you feel that being alive and free from pain is better than the alternative? Without having any such emotional values, even those installed from inborn instincts or formative experiences, it’s impossible to make decisions.
And yeah without understanding that you get people who don’t understand or don’t care about what they feel who think their choices can be informed only by rational thought, which is just as much a mistake as thinking whatever makes you feel good is the right choice. Probably the expression “think before you act” should also mention acknowledge your feelings to make sure you’re not falling for some cognitive bias, if we can put that in some simpler terms.
That’s because men are taught that all emotions are poison that will turn them into a girl, except the singular exclusion is that Anger is Not An Emotion when you are male, and you should re-route every other emotion you have into an anger response. So, what they call “pure logic and reason,” is actually just their internal, innate cruelty, as driven by a life of entitlement and unwarranted psycho-sexual frustration.
The easiest way to control a populace, is to only have them feel the emotions that make them easy to control and direct. Society has accomplished this with men for CENTURIES through the use of the patriarchy.
Can confirm some women also manage to internalize the same concept. “I’m not emotional, I’m rational, [proceeds to express anger in a very very scary way all the time while pretending it’s rational].” Sucks to be around, and probably also to live inside of.
People (all genders, but I’ve definitely encounter this more with men) then also think that emotions are counter to intelligence and that they’re “too smart” for therapy or to engage in conversations about their feelings, and then they suffer for it.
I didn’t get that strand of toxic masculinity bullshit, thankfully, but I did still aspire to “pure” logic and reason and tried to suppress and deny my emotions, because they were strong and scary and I didn’t know how to deal with them in a healthy way. Basically, Spock. This became particularly ironic (yet appropriate) when I got a little older and found out why Vulcans are like they are.
I won’t claim I’m always better at handling my feelings and passions now, but at least I acknowledge without shame that I have them.
I think the point of the saying is that you should feel, but you shouldn’t allow your feelings/instincts to cloud your judgement. Feelings *can* be in opposition to logic and reason in some circumstances, that much is certain. For instance, if you’re afraid of confrontation, it might lead you to keep your head down and never do what you think is right.
And I disagree with the point of the saying as you’ve described it here. There are certainly times where feelings can overwhelm you and regulation is important, but trying to cut them out of your judgement entirely is a silly overreaction.
I know that with my head, but my visceral feelings don’t always agree.
IOW, it’s hard, because much of the time, what our heads do is justify those feelings. And on the other hand, empathy is also a visceral feeling, right?
Which is what Asma meant by “cop energy”. As opposed to “actual cop”. She’s fighting her instincts in order to do the right thing. And you don’t gamble on a stranger winning that fight every time with things that matter.
Yes. Dorothy wants to believe in the system. She wants to play by the rules.
I think she’d fit right in with the Democratic party. Heck, she’d have made an Obama style prez who keeps trying to negotiate and compromise with people who hate her on a primal level, and will never cooperate.
He had the votes for the ACA, but if he tried so hard to compromise with Republicans, whose rewrites weakened it at every turn (each and every thing people complained about on the ACA, was something written by a Republican), and he did it JUST so he could have bipartisanship and they would vote for it… then they didn’t vote for it anyway. If he hadn’t done that, we might have had Universal Health Care now.
He didn’t have the votes for that. He was fighting with people within the party, trying to secure their votes, not Republican ones. He talked a bipartisan game, but it was really about getting conservative Dem Senators on board. The likes of Baucus and Lieberman weren’t giving us singlepayer.
Your ONLY complaint of Obama? For reals? His handling of the financial sector knowingly crashing the economy for an extra buck by *checks notes* handing its managers free money doesn’t make the list?
And the previous administrations “extraordinary renditions” (AKA kidnapping people) and torture being treated as water under the bridge instead of prosecuted.
Yeah, I was thinking about this one. It occured to me I’ve probably got cop energy (big surprise, I identify with Dotty about something) with my pathological honesty and tendency to defer to others and follow the rules. And that’s kind of ironic since, y’know, actual cops don’t have any of that.
I like that while Dorothy has this moment, Joyce is the one leading *her* by the hand. Really underscores how much they’ve both changed with each other.
I think it’d be dishonest to say it was “because of Joyce”… there are a lot of factors that went into changing her. Getting kidnapped, working with a superhero, relationship with Walky, meeting other people who have been changing too… Joyce is a part of it sure, but she’s not avoiding Yale because of Joyce. She’s avoiding it because she’s changed.
Yes, if you can pick one event out of “a lot of factors that went into changing her” and show that she hadn’t changed her mind on this point immediately after it happened, it can’t have been one of those factors.
Also, she sent her essay after she met Joyce, so I guess it can’t have been a factor either.
And she could have only sent that essay in because she still felt she “had to”… a bit of the sunk-cost fallacy. “I mean, it’s what I’ve been saying all along, so I guess I need to send it in” Doesn’t mean she was still gung-ho for Yale at that point. And the realization of getting accepted then is the turning point for realizing… “Hey, maybe that’s not what I want or need anymore”.
But then, as she explained to Becky, she decided she didn’t want to get ahead by using a traumatic situation where someone was killed as a stepping stone.
It took me some time to realize there was was no option of true peace under a system of oppression and abuse. The government works very hard on institutionally enforcing that they’re the Good Guys. I needed exposure to new ideas to shake me up. But more than that, I needed people who gave me grace while I figured stuff out
Joyce, like me, like Willis, started out embracing some ignorant, offensive ideas. Dorothy helped Joyce challenge some of that. Now Dorothy’s facing her naivete, and I think Joyce will help her. That’s what we love Joyce for – her near infinite forgiveness for people who fuck up but try to do better.
In conclusion, let Dorothy cook!
Now I’m going to see myself out of the comments for a few days so you don’t have to keep listening to this broken record, to y’all.
Dorothy will get radicalized the exact second a cop puts his hands on Joyce. Which, I hope doesn’t happen, but if she watches a guy in a uniform doing…the kinds of things cops tend to do to young women when they are handling them, she will finally understand the cost of her obedience, and the social order.
It’s easy to grow up thinking that being obedient is a good trade-off with authority figures, if you grow up with saintly, attentive parents like Dorothy. I don’t blame her for being a collaborator with authoritarians, because in her life growing up, authority figures were literally always a safe thing for her.
There are a lot of real, living people, who feel the way Dorothy feels; they feel that way, because that is a strategy that has always worked for them, and they haven’t suffered enough incidental abuse and tyranny as a result of that. So, it’s no wonder why they can’t wrap their heads around fighting back against authority; obedience has never caused them any problems, so when they see people having problems with authority, they assume the oppressed are the problem, and not the oppressor.
It’s just something you have to unlearn to become a good person. And it’s hard to unlearn something, when society offers you no benefit to unlearn it. People end up having to wait until the boot heel is on the back of their neck, to realize what everybody else was always complaining about, and hopefully that’s when they have their own epiphany about the subject.
I started as a Republican and fundamentalist (and a dick) in my teens. Exposure to real people gradually made me more radical and anti-authoritarian until I’m a Goth anarchist in my forties. So there’s life for you. It sometimes does a 180.
It’s both extremely true that Joyce is why she didn’t go to Yale, but it’s also extremely true that it’s not *just* because of that. She doesn’t want to lose Joyce but also she didn’t really want that dream in the first place. You just caught Dorothy at a time when she hears that question and panics because she wants to yell “I’M *NOT* IN LOVE WITH YOU”
I think she contributed to it, though I also think that was kind of building onto things that’d already begun, like the whole RA thing with Roz showing her that there’s a lot of stuff involved in politics, like shmoozing, that aren’t really what she wants to do, too. Like, I feel like Dorothy would probably be a lot more fulfilled as a social worker or part of a charitable organization, etc, than she would be by high level politics.
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“there’s a version of me that shut her yap”
No, I am certain that is one version of Dorothy that could never exist.
I prefer this “foot in mouth” version more
Dotty: Yeeeeeeeees….but that’s a good thing ^^
personal growwwwwwwwth.
I know so many pre-Joyce Dottys it hurts
Joyce, you may or may not be why Dorothy didn’t go to Yale, but you’re definitely why she’s about to go to Jail, and that rhymes so it’s just as good.
Excellent discovery. Have some internet points!
He needs a Tardis to store all his accumulated Internet points.
I yust got out of Yale last week!
Glad to hear it! You’re hired!
Thanks, I really need the yob.
Best comment.
This is a great time for this
Dorothy’s gonna be so relieved when the cops interrupt them.
Dorothy, a split second before the butt of an assault rifle breaks her nose: OH THANK GOD
Cop – FREEZE!
Dorothy – Oh thank God!
Joyce – What?
Dorothy – What?
Cop – What?
I did this joke later down the page and you did it much better.
It’s a hilarious time, and possibly also a necessary one– these seem to be the kinds of things Dorothy has struggled to say when just spending time with Joyce, or when just hanging out with anyone. Like she needs something else to be going on to not get hung up on every word she’s about to say and how that might be perceived.
Of course, we’ll see how well that goes now that Joyce jas picked up on something she said.
Totally agree. Being in the midst of all this is forcing the internal conflict to the front of Dorothy’s mind, she’s being pulled along and doesn’t have to make eye contact, there’s a task at hand dividing her and Joyce’s attention, she’s in the process of coming to terms with having feelings for Joyce… it’s the perfect time to have this conversation xD which I say half jokingly, because maybe it’s not the best time to make big revelations, but sometimes it’s the right time because it’s the only possible time.
This will be amazing material for Julia Gray
50 shades of Julia Gray?
If that book doesn’t exist by this time next year, I’ll be disappointed in humanity. (I mean, more than already)
At least as a smutfic by Amber
The cover can have laundry being washed sensually
julia: “i’m quitting being a military pilot! the government is bad!”
doris: “and i’m also quitting being president!”
julia: “we’re going to fight the space vampires as unaccountable vigilantes!”
doris: “yeah we’re–wait i dunno if that’s better”
barrence o’rigby: “it’s not, and here’s why”
Who’s Barrence O’Rigby?
Dorothy’s need to hash this out with Joyce is conflicting with the danger, and politics of their current location.
If Dorothy wants to have this conversation she should at least wait until they’re arrested; anyone disagree, agree, or something 3rd choice?
I do not think this is a moment where Dorothy is thinking particularly rationally.
Well yeah man, that’s what makes the story interesting
I think that, frankly, Dorothy is very afraid right now, and that confessing some of her revelations she’s had about where she was naive and lacked conviction is probably bringing her some comfort.
Sometimes, you say things because you recognize that you may not get the opportunity to do so later, whether something happens to separate them or she simply loses the nerve.
Disagree. Once they are arrested they should both shut the hell up and wait to be released/talk to a lawyer.
This. Better to have this conversation before they get arrested. After, it’s best to not talk within earshot of the cops.
i know intellectually that any vocalization while in custody runs risk of you saying something incriminating because spontaneous dialogue is hard to plan
but i’m just imagining joyce and dorothy talking out their crush in a jail cell and whoever’s surveilling them determining their huge gay feelings are admissible evidence
They should have this conversation first so they can spend their jail time making out.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I would not like to see the girl make out with the other girl right now. (Especially now that the boy is showing some character growth.)
That’s okay, I’ll want it double for us.
this comment deserves a prize for best worst vibes
can’t confess to a crime if your mouth has someone’s tongue in it *taps forehead*
Not really. What’s it interfering with? They’re not in immediate danger, in the sense that she’s distracting them from dodging bullets or something. Nor are they actually here to protest, so the politics don’t really matter.
And they can talk and scan the crowd for Jocelyne at the same time.
Stop deflecting Joyce! I’m trying to confess about how you changed me for the better, this isn’t about other choices that may or may not be related!
Also, may I rub my face in your amazing boobs?
Does say a lot, doesn’t it? When neither Walky nor Danny could keep her from Yale, but Joyce did make her decide not to go. Of course there’s a lot of other things happening there too… but also… Joyce.
“I’m not saying I’m in love with you…”
“You’re not NOT saying it, either.”
“…”
https://youtu.be/DPMjsfJwUow?si=OAb1jlyCGPHM18AW
Enjoy
Wow, that “I gonna be cleaver by One Eight” made Joyce really smart
And there it is.
Joyce, you’ll have to know and understand that wonderful, subtle art known as phrasing.
I mean I get the want for things to be quiet and peaceful.
But at a certain point, justice and our rights are more valuable than peace.
heck ironically I think a US president said that
“There can be no virtue without freedom, and no peace without justice.” — Frederick Douglass
Dorothy is referencing a pretty famous quote from MLK about white moderates that prefer order/peace to justice where he calls them nearly a greater stumbling block to black emancipation than the avowed racist.
And before people get too up in arms about this: Dorothy’s outright stating that this mentality she has is wrong. That’s what she means by it being her “Lizard-Brain” thinking this, that she knows its the wrong thing to think and she can’t help but think it.
Don’t worry. Some one will be by soon to misinterpret in ways you could never have dreamed of and couldn’t possibly have prevented.
Me to the guy who writes all the Magic: The Gathering cards.
Yes to both of these. Have to brace myself for the inevitable ‘missing the point’. People who hate her seem to most hate her when she’s sincere and vulnerable; if they can twist her words against her, they will
we have twitter at home
Yes, this is important. She is recognizing that this is her instinct and recognizing that that is a bad thing. That she has a moral imperative to fight that instinct and go the other direction.
Yeah, she’s basically saying that it’s not her ideals or her rational thought that leads her to shying away from confrontation and sticking her neck out like this, it’s fear and hoping for a frictionless way towards progress.
It makes sense that her confronting this aspect of herself is part of the change she’s undergoing, facing the reality that her fantasy of being a president that’d just make wise judgments as if she were King Solomon or something and avoid the worst outcomes or most morally dubious decisions, has been a big part of her crisis of faith and crisis of self she’s undergone, and of course, there’s the Joyce factor in all of it, too.
“Riots are caused by nice white people who refuse to recognize injustice”
actual MLK quote
The quote if anyone needs to read it:
‘I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.’
from https://letterfromjail.com/
oh crap I was JUST about to post that, thanks XD
It’s been decades since he wrote that, and it’s still relevant today.
Yes, dammit.
Thanks for pointing this out; it sounded familiar but I couldn’t place it
Protests are kinda like divorce.
You don’t want them to happen. They’re a sign that something went wrong and needs to be solved.
But it’s far better to have them around when they’re needed than for the alternative…
LBJ, in his 1965 speech to Congress demanding that they pass the Voting Rights Act, after a civil rights march in Selma was met with terrible violence by the police and others:
“In Selma as elsewhere we seek and pray for peace. We seek order. We seek unity. But we will not accept the peace of stifled rights, or the order imposed by fear, or the unity that stifles protest. For peace cannot be purchased at the cost of liberty.”
The whole speech is well worth reading:
https://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/johnson-we-shall-overcome-speech-text/
I don’t know if any presidents said it, but MLK Jr said something similar in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
oh yeah it was Woodrow Wilson I think,
but yeah brotha MLK just said it as it is, and if he were alive today would probably give Dorothy a *thorough* talking to, (and probably kick her ass at billiards while he’s at it)
Oddly, Wilson was a virulent racist. When he became president, he fired every black employee of the federal government but one. He said the racist screed “Birth of a Nation” was history written with lightning.
A reminder that the Treaty of Versailles also was an utter disaster because Wilson ignored every single actual issue of it to try to push through the League of Nations, including anything from non-white participants. Which really pissed off Japan.
To be fair, there were a lot of reasons Versailles was a disaster. It wasn’t all Wilson’s fault.
Conceded.
let’s be real here, no president of the 21st century was really “non-racist” in the way white people like to imagine, nor any party at the time (spare Communist Party USA) would let people of color into their ranks at all
for brothas voting was (and still is) about picking whichever ignorant white people we could extract more from and whose election would result in the least number of us prematurely *dying*
— 20th century
dammit I need anotha cup of coffee don’t I
Not like 21st century presidents have been better.
In the case of Wilson, he was racist for his time.
And even with that, it’s not so much about racism as a personal flaw of Presidents, as about racism as a structural element in American politics. Whatever their personal feelings, to reach the level of President, politicians had to deal with a deeply racist American public.
In the first part of the 20th century Democrats had the support of Southern segregationists as long as they didn’t rock the boat too much. In the latter part, Republicans fanned racism to appeal to and broaden that voting bloc, while Democrats tried to walk the line of doing enough to keep black voter support while not scaring away so many whites they couldn’t win.
yeah what you’re describing is the great political re-alignment which happened in the 1970s when disgruntled social conservatives and racists in the South who were former democrat moved to the Republican Party, culminating in the late 1980s where the latter’s solidified their strategy was basically “if you can’t get the people to vote for your party, get them to vote against the other”.
at this point the Democratic Party was caught in an awkward spot in the electoral college meta where they pretty much lost the south to Republicans and hadn’t yet figured out how to win without it
Yeah, absolutely. I do think the point of Dems since then having to walk that tightrope explains a lot and isn’t emphasized enough.
The answer to rebuilding a winning coalition is more complicated than some think.
heck like vote for who you vote for to mitigate the damage done by the government (which honestly didn’t even meet our needs so well even BEFORE it became so obviously broken), but like
ultimately a government by the people for the people is pointless if “”the”” people are not willing to do the actual work needed to make free fair society happen
¯\_(‘_’)_/¯
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
– Letter from a Birmingham Jail
Yes. I don’t think she’s saying she prefers peace and uninvolvement like it’s a positive trait. I think she’s evaluating what it means that she was willing to just go along to get along at the expense of other people and herself.
Cue the guilt trip.
Protesting is playing nice, of course. You can hold up all the angry signs you want, yell as loud as you want, but it’s still the nice response that the government and corporations (a tautology, I know) should be thankful for daily, lest the not-nice options be brought out. Maybe we’re being a little too lenient with that not-nice option, nowadays.
I concur
under our gov’s circumstances, we’ve been SHOCKINGLY nice
Kind of like workers going on strike. No one’s going to like it if we go back what was done before the version where we play nice but damned if the people in power don’t seem to be making sure that’s the only option left that will work.
The counter to that argument is that strikes actually work better than the previous less nice options.
Never forget that potential union leaders are still assassinated regularly by corporations all around the globe. If multi-billion dollar global companies, are willing to commit several felonies to prevent unionizing from occurring, even in small, remote areas of the world, it’s because unionizing works. The powerful only seek to destroy the things they fear might unseat their power.
Peaceful protesting is one of the nicest things people can do in an unjust system.
As pride month comes to a close we are pushed to remember that the reason the first Pride was needed was police brutality Right as it was happening for the crime of existing, and the solemn act of the first Pride was a brick to a bad gay-bashing cop’s face. So protest peacefully but have a brick in hand just in case.
There’s no peace when those in power are actively breaking your bones.
I appreciate Dorothy’s awkwardness here. Its something that a lot of progressives from privileged backgrounds need to deal with.
We don’t want protests to be happening. That a protest is happening is bad, because its generally a sign that shit’s fucked in some regard.
That’s why its important to have around. Even when the stated reasons for the protests are unambiguously wrong (like when homophobic/transphobic douchebags are complaining that gay people exist, or when people start trying to protest vaccines being required to prevent people from fucking dying), them happening is still a way to tell that people are indeed angry about a thing, and *something* about that anger needs to be dealt with (even if its just improving education on the subject).
But it can still be supremely awkward and uncomfortable to see when you’re young. There’s a lot of context that you’re missing, especially if you come from a situation that hasn’t needed to protest for much on the whole.
Its an important subject to broach and deal with, and I kinda hope that it doesn’t become too overwhelmed by Dorothy admitting that she’s maybe-sabotaging her future prospects because she’s Totally “Platonically” Horny for Joyce…
I mean, you might not necessarily have ended up a tool of the establishment. You could have ended up running a bookstore, going out of business, and getting bodyjacked by a would-be world conqueror from outer space.
…which I suppose also counts as being a tool of a corrupt authoritarian government, of sorts. Nvm
Gawd Dorothy, who would choose this school specifically for a girl, and would they wear a stupid hat?
Hey now, leave Dorothy’s hat alone, its a perfectly fine hat!
I don’t trust your taste in hats in that gravatar.
Danny’s hat is PEAK, and how dare you imply otherwise!
Please don’t slander the hat.
They might even play a ukulele.
There are far worse hats than that.
At least Dorothy is being honest with herself about having not great views. We all should have that discussion with ourselves.
It’s how we change, Rachel.
…oh no
OH NO
chinhands quietly
‘Whoops!’ Seems to be happening a lot today in the story.
She decided against Yale, and being president when she realized that, sometimes, presidents are bad. Fo real.
Hey… she can’t be smart at everything.
It’s almost like she has some sort of, I don’t know, internalized ethical obsession, where everything must always be Just So, based on her rigid internal rules for herself. Anything she does can’t be even slightly wrong, or she deserves to be punished and castigated for it. She must always remain morally pure at all times.
Can’t imagine why Joyce and Dorothy share this exact trait conspicuously in common…
they are definitely not going to continue holding hands and looking for jocelyn, leaving this on hold for later, no matter how I wish they do.
I’m glad Dorothy has realized that some institutions are not good as she previously thought.
Use your words, Dotty. You can do it! I have faith in you!
I love how Dorothy just can’t stop spilling her guts to Joyce lately. the cat is sliding out of the bag and she’s just helpless to stop it no matter how hard she tries.
If this was any other comic I’d call this level of “will they/won’t they” queerbating, but considering how much toxic/”it’s complicated” yuri we’ve gotten I’m just waiting for the other shoe to finish dropping.
I don’t think anything in this comic can really be queer-baiting, it’s a queer comic full of queer teens written by a queer person. The strip is full of openly queer characters. What are we baiting?
OK i gotta talk about this now. Jorothy became inevitable the moment Willis dropped the word queerbaiting in the comic. Like by that point there was literally no way Willis COULDN’T do something about Joyce and Dorothy. Though it reasons to stand it was already in full motion by then but name dropping queer baiting and then not following up on it ever would be an insane move. It’s been a ticking time-bomb for sometime now because of that.
I think a lot of this whole post timeskip saga has effectively been the dangers of Queerbaiting. Neither wants to spit out they have genuine feelings for each other and Joyce seems fine playing pretend and getting a taste test of the real thing while Dorothy’s entire life has been derailed by Joe just walking up to Joyce and asking her out while she can do nothing as if she just sealed herself into a coffin that’s been thrown onto the ocean.
Queerbaiting is how we got into this whole damn mess!!!
Fellas is it queerbaiting when my ship takes slightly too long to happen?
(No. What you are describing is just the normal pace of any piece of media where said romance is a major part of the long-term plot of the story. Indeed, in most romance fiction, the couple doesn’t actually get together until the very end.)
sniles so sneetly
crackpot theory time. Something happened during the timeskip that really sparked something for Dorothy re: Joyce. All non-canonical porn and art happen in an AU where that spark doesn’t happen. Like Ruth and Jennifer walking in the snow, Ruth got some better advice than Dorothy’s on Halloween. Lucy works up the nerve to ask Walky out, they communicate better, and Walky gets non-conflicted advice, and that’s the AU where they fuck.
I call it Dumbiverse 1. Also, Robin didn’t take over Professor Nicholson’s class. When he heard Dorothy got into Yale and wouldn’t be coming to every office hours, he no longer wanted to escape into punditry.
Dorothy “I Want Peace, I Don’t Want Justice” Keener
To be fair, Dorothy has been through a lot of realizations the world is full of not very nice people who are unreasonable.
Ryan
Toedad
Blaine
Also, Robin to an extent who is just one epic example of self-interested corruption.
Re: Alt text:
Of course, if a professional sport did something objectionable, you could always protest a pro contest. And if you were in support of that you would be pro-protest of a pro contest. But careful with your support, because if it was a fake demonstration done for publicity, you would be pro a con protest of a pro contest. You need to test the pro contest protest so protesting cons don’t con you; recon the protest to confirm it’s progressive and not confidentially pro-contest. Pro cons can be testing, but don’t consent to pro pro contest protest cons, and don’t let pro-con prose proliferate!
Haha! Thank you for this work of art
This hurt my head, congratulations
Was that a retcon?
It’s funny considering that the version that Dorothy is describing to Joyce is essentially herself from the Walkyverse. That version of her had it rough, as she didn’t even make it to high office. Leaving out all the supernatural events like Head Alien, one would think that Dorothy could have turned out like her Walkyverse counterpart.
Dorothy is the kind of person who sees a protest get violent against/by violent racists and immediately thinks, “Man, I should call the cops to protect the protestors.”
Unfortunately, the cops are often the ones who cause violence at protests in the first place.
Yeah, it’s not an attitude that most people at a protest would appreciate.
Yeah, never call the cops on someone cops routinely kill for walking home. Unless they are on a killing spree, though you better be damn sure the killing spree isn’t against nazis that just killed their daughter. In that case, help, dday style.
My metric is “I only would call the cops on a situation, where I think their presence leads to an EV of fewer people I care about getting shot.”
As it turns out, this metric excludes nearly every possible situation a person can be in. Because the presence of cops pretty much always increases the chance somebody you love will be abused, maimed, or killed.
*was
She’s acknowledging that there’s an animal instinct she has to avoid conflict, but that she’s growing, and left the path that was leading her to enforcing those institutions
Remember when Dorothy broke up with Danny because she thought he was pathetic for doing exactly this? Boy, those were the days.
More because she didn’t see a future with him and also the final straw of him not actually respecting her as her own person.
(he has grown a lot since then)
There is a certain element of irony that Dorothy has found out her dreams were childish like Danny thought. Except now Danny has grown to respect them as legitimate.
It also is an illustration of her wanting to avoid conflict that she just hoped he’d go away when she went to college versus breaking up with him.
There’s something hilarious that Danny was basically right and got dragged for years because people thought Dotty was some powerhouse when she’s just pansexual Lisa Simpson.
that’s just regular lisa simpson
https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Lisa%27s_ex-girlfriends
+1 Willis point.
I maintain that the #1 core reason everyone in this comments section has resolved that Dorothy is the actual living anti-christ made flesh on this earth, is that all those people bought into Dorothy’s bullshit implicitly, from the very start of the comic. Dorothy catches shit from everybody for not being perfect, because she’s the one who is supposed to be perfect. She said, so, repeatedly. So, every time she actually has a flaw or a character trait, she gets treated like a pariah, because everyone’s judging her actions and intentions from the perspective of the one kid who is “supposed to know better.”
The fact that Dorothy was always immature, self-deluding, and deeply unsustainable about everything she said or did, was kind of lost on some of the people who have been reading for a long time, and spent several years with Always Right Dorothy. But, Always Right Dorothy was never going to be sustainable. Autistic burnout, and sapphic obsession, comes for us all.
Serious question: when has Dorothy ever claimed to be perfect, rather than just exhibiting a lot of stress over failing to be perfect?
I mostly agree with your comment, with the caveat that I think a lot of readers, myself previously included, projected certain assumptions onto Dorothy based almost entirely on her limited and specific sexual experience and maturity, while failing to notice that most of the stuff she said on every single other topic was very obviously every bit as naive and sheltered as Joyce.
Don’t blame Joyce, you didn’t go to Yale because you were scared and started to not trust yourself. If it was just Joyce you could have seduced her into going to Yale with you.
There were also factors such as feeling guilt that the kidnapping improved her chances of being accepted into Yale, too. In general, I think it was a lot of factors, though wanting to watch over Joyce was part of it.
Dorothy seems to have made a lot of excuses for herself to avoid confronting a few things she seems to have realized unconsciously. Joyce certainly was a factor but also simply Dorothy doesn’t want the goal of Yale/Presidency or to leave her friends.
First of all, the main thing she’s been hiding has been that Joyce is a big part of why she’s not going to Yale anymore, her queer love for her friend has been the whole slow reveal of her arc
Second, she is literally telling Joyce right now that she’s changed her mind about wanting to go to Yale for her own reasons as well
she could’ve just seduced joyce into applying for and getting admission to one of the most competitive colleges in the united states?
she’s THAT GOOD
Dorothy: OOPS
SAID THE QUIET PART LOUD
*Googles* how to delete comments said in person out loud
All she needs to do is have Carla help her invent an un-saying-things machine.
Someday, Becky and Danny will form a support group called “It Should Have Been Meee.”
I have no idea why, because both of them upgraded like MAD.
Right? Best thing that ever happened to Danny was Dorothy breaking the chain.
Dina is a far better choice for Becky too, none of that baggage and the fear of losing their friendship if the banging didn’t work out.
Oh God I just imagined how much more insecure Becky would be if she was actually dating Joyce and GOD DAMN that would be unhealthy! Dina is kind of perfect for her?
My avatar is once again hella relevant. Please please if it was you who made it tell me because I forgot to jot it down and I need to give you credit.
Joyce’s Hand Holding of Truth is just too powerful. Also we’ve known who Dorothy is for ages and “I want peace, I don’t want… Justice” made me wince hard. ANYWAY. Way to interrupt her existential Crisis of Self by forking it into an existential Crisis of Sappho /o/ A++ storytelling, love these faces
Booster is commander in the sickos army alonside amber.
damn I just concluded that Amber/Booster would be a really hot goblin ship, but I don’t think either of them would be remotely attracted to one another
Booster asked Amber out to pizza so I think they find her attractive.
Booster literally think she is hot. Wherever Amber share that is another matter
Two people have already told you they think she’s hot; and also I think Amber isn’t as straight as she thinks.
It’s not like I expect it to happen sldgjskd but yeah they’d be fun
Pretty sure it was Nymph? In this very comment section
It was me!
I’m so glad you like it so much
Both the gravs you made were works of art for real
I ADORE IT. I love both of them!!! Picking just one was super hard sdlkgjsld so, thank you ;ww; I’ll put it in the description
Toxic Yuri Status: RAINBOW QUARTZ
Dorothy does have strong pearl energy.
You know, I *could* easily hear Dorothy’s lines in Pearl’s voice.
I love the reference.
Not even mentioning the strong rose quartz vibes Joyce is giving…
Oh Dorothy
“I don’t want peace. I want problems, always!”
The World’s Most Laughable Centrist
I get that reference!
I’m a big fan of Mazovian Socio-Economics and Infra-Materialism.
How can she be the most laughable? She’s exactly equal to every other centrist!
Welp, cat’s out of the bag now, Dorothy. Might as well tell Joyce you have a crush on her while you’re at it.
I mean you definitely wouldn’t be with the police “right now” in that alternate reality, because you’d still be an 18 year old college student.
Unless she means, like, morally “with” the police? Which makes more sense, but I really don’t think it gives enough credit to pre-Joyce Dorothy. She wasn’t pro-police before she met Joyce.
She was pro-status-quo, and believed compromise could always be reached no matter where all sides started from. She probably would’ve looked at the protest as counterproductive to the cause it supports.
Prediction?
Prediction.
Foreshadowing?
Maybe.
Hypocrisy.
Totally.
…
Yeah… I’ve never really liked Dorothy…
This current story isn’t helping.
The one where she’s actively growing and starting to acknowledge that these ways she thought about things were bad? That she doesn’t want to be on a path towards presidency anymore because she’s recognized that it would mean she would be part of a bad system?
I never predict stuff in the comments. But to counteract the anti-Dorothys, I predict that if anyone is going to jail today, it will be Dorothy for doing something brave.
It will be Dorothy the second that cops lay a hand on Joyce, which we’re getting rapidly closer to the longer they’re fenced in at this protest. She might try to go full Dina on a bunch of cops, if they pull Joyce away.
The “best” part is, they also might assume that Joyce is Jocelyne, and that she’s actually more of a part of the movement, and in doing so, they might treat Joyce like she’s a trans woman.
Can’t believe how much fear gets injected into my fun comic when they decide to put the characters up against jack-booted wife-beating rapist fascist animals, or as people like Dorothy know them, The Police. I sincerely hope this situation doesn’t play out in a real-to-life fashion, or a lot of us in the comments are gonna be traumatized and heart-broken.
Bad news: Dorothy has now become Danny.
Good news: Danny is Joe’s best friend! And Joe is dating Joyce! So they should get along really well!
I’m keeping my hope strong that this goes in a very gay direction like it almost did before…
YES! Finally! The cat’s out of the bag!
Who keeps putting all those cats in bags?! I’m pretty sure that’s animal abuse!
Leave a bag anywhere within reach* and a cat will put themselves in the bag. And then surprise you when it springs out. Or just fumbles itself around and you wonder for a moment if your bag is possessed.
*anywhere they can conceivably jump, climb, or claw open counts as “within reach”
Indeed! Getting the cat back out of the bag is the hard part.
Also getting the bag out of the cat’s mouth sometimes. Little weirdos.
Schrodinger’s Bag
Been there Dorothy, my 18 year old self’s politics were also pretty centrist and I wonder what I would have supported if my politics didn’t take the evolution they did
Exactly. Seems like a lot of people here must have been radical-left protestors and activists in high school and early college, and more power to them! As for me, I was one of the few leftists of Rural Echo-Chambersville, then got humbled by entering the world and seeing how much farther left there was to go. I can’t throw first stones here.
I was a pretty radical left protestor and activist in high school, writing letters to my congress people, organizing our GSA, arguing in front of the school board occasionally and…
…I don’t see what people’s problem is here. Dorothy is acknowledging that perspective was flawed and is working on fixing it. I’m not sure what anyone wants of an 18yo who is trying her best, but if that’s “perfection” then that’s some white leftist purity politics bullshit and they should get over it.
She’ll get there. Let her cook. Let her grow and change otherwise it’s a boring fucking story.
Yeah, what Dorothy is doing here is actually really hard. Many of us struggle with admitting the ways we fall short of our ideals, even to ourselves. But it’s harder to change that if you won’t admit it, easier to justify your actions rather than look critically at them.
Good on Dorothy, honestly.
Yeah, like, you’ll never find me at a protest for my causes. Because, duh. If I get murdered by a MAGA terrorist, my partner has nobody to take care of them when they’re old. My life is not disposable in the way that this society wants me to believe that it is. If cops and fascists are gonna be there, I avoid that place, the same way I avoid bears and moose. You aren’t supposed to physically challenge things that society deems are naturally allowed to kill you.
re: “white leftist purity politics bullshit”, RIGHT?
ally isn’t a noun, it’s a verb, it’s not so much about where ya currently at but about what ya doin to keep moving forward
also imma just say it as it is — emphasis on “”purity”” as opposed to progress and pluralizing is literally a right-wing tool
it’s just that not a lot of white people tend to notice because, let’s face it, that’s just the way our country’s overton window tends to lean by default, go figure 9-9
I’m fond of saying I moved from vaguely left of centre to, if not far left then certainly much further left than most Labour Party leaders in my lifetime, without actually changing my opinions. This is an exaggeration; my opinions have definitely shifted further left, if not as far as the definitions have shifted.
same here,
if the pandemic hadn’t turned the world and my life upside down, my physics career path could have taken me to Lockheed Martin or even the IDF on account of having not known any better at the time
… life would have looked very different had a random protein not folded a certain way on the opposite end of the globe to form the first Sars-2-Coronavirus, that much is certain
My political views have definitely moved to the left a lot from where they were when I was 18. And I’m glad of that, though I wish it had happened earlier.
I was always a commie in theory, but didn’t get involved in anything until a couple years ago.
One thing I constantly struggle with is, deep down, I wouldn’t care about politics if it was an option. I find organizing to be an unrewarding slog and I actually dislike a lot of my comrades. If things were just imperfect but tolerable, I would spend that time doing something else.
YES JOYCE. You’re who Danny THOUGHT he was.
You know your morality and politics don’t have to be based on your visceral feelings right. (Dorothy knows, Rachel doesn’t.)
Yup. As a guy on the internet once said: love with your heart, use your head for everything else!
Nah, feelings are plenty useful. I’m not cutting them off because some guy online thinks they’re oppositional to logic and reason.
Everyone I’ve ever talked to who claimed to rely only on reason and logic was clearly being driven by unexamined emotions. And generally that pure reason and logic led to weird and usually dark places.
Maybe this is a bit intermediate psychology, but feelings are necessary to motivate anyone to take any action beyond muscle reflex territory. Why do you even bother to eat if you’re hungry unless you feel that being alive and free from pain is better than the alternative? Without having any such emotional values, even those installed from inborn instincts or formative experiences, it’s impossible to make decisions.
And yeah without understanding that you get people who don’t understand or don’t care about what they feel who think their choices can be informed only by rational thought, which is just as much a mistake as thinking whatever makes you feel good is the right choice. Probably the expression “think before you act” should also mention acknowledge your feelings to make sure you’re not falling for some cognitive bias, if we can put that in some simpler terms.
https://xkcd.com/1901/
That’s because men are taught that all emotions are poison that will turn them into a girl, except the singular exclusion is that Anger is Not An Emotion when you are male, and you should re-route every other emotion you have into an anger response. So, what they call “pure logic and reason,” is actually just their internal, innate cruelty, as driven by a life of entitlement and unwarranted psycho-sexual frustration.
The easiest way to control a populace, is to only have them feel the emotions that make them easy to control and direct. Society has accomplished this with men for CENTURIES through the use of the patriarchy.
Can confirm some women also manage to internalize the same concept. “I’m not emotional, I’m rational, [proceeds to express anger in a very very scary way all the time while pretending it’s rational].” Sucks to be around, and probably also to live inside of.
People (all genders, but I’ve definitely encounter this more with men) then also think that emotions are counter to intelligence and that they’re “too smart” for therapy or to engage in conversations about their feelings, and then they suffer for it.
I didn’t get that strand of toxic masculinity bullshit, thankfully, but I did still aspire to “pure” logic and reason and tried to suppress and deny my emotions, because they were strong and scary and I didn’t know how to deal with them in a healthy way. Basically, Spock. This became particularly ironic (yet appropriate) when I got a little older and found out why Vulcans are like they are.
I won’t claim I’m always better at handling my feelings and passions now, but at least I acknowledge without shame that I have them.
I think the point of the saying is that you should feel, but you shouldn’t allow your feelings/instincts to cloud your judgement. Feelings *can* be in opposition to logic and reason in some circumstances, that much is certain. For instance, if you’re afraid of confrontation, it might lead you to keep your head down and never do what you think is right.
And I disagree with the point of the saying as you’ve described it here. There are certainly times where feelings can overwhelm you and regulation is important, but trying to cut them out of your judgement entirely is a silly overreaction.
I know that with my head, but my visceral feelings don’t always agree.
IOW, it’s hard, because much of the time, what our heads do is justify those feelings. And on the other hand, empathy is also a visceral feeling, right?
So much this, a lot of visceral feelings come from upbringing and trauma, and we have to learn to use “Wise Mind” to distinguish that from logic.
Which is what Dorothy is trying to acknowledge now.
Which is what Asma meant by “cop energy”. As opposed to “actual cop”. She’s fighting her instincts in order to do the right thing. And you don’t gamble on a stranger winning that fight every time with things that matter.
Yes. Dorothy wants to believe in the system. She wants to play by the rules.
I think she’d fit right in with the Democratic party. Heck, she’d have made an Obama style prez who keeps trying to negotiate and compromise with people who hate her on a primal level, and will never cooperate.
That was my only complaint of Obama.
He had the votes for the ACA, but if he tried so hard to compromise with Republicans, whose rewrites weakened it at every turn (each and every thing people complained about on the ACA, was something written by a Republican), and he did it JUST so he could have bipartisanship and they would vote for it… then they didn’t vote for it anyway. If he hadn’t done that, we might have had Universal Health Care now.
Sorry, off my soap box now.
He didn’t have the votes for that. He was fighting with people within the party, trying to secure their votes, not Republican ones. He talked a bipartisan game, but it was really about getting conservative Dem Senators on board. The likes of Baucus and Lieberman weren’t giving us singlepayer.
Your ONLY complaint of Obama? For reals? His handling of the financial sector knowingly crashing the economy for an extra buck by *checks notes* handing its managers free money doesn’t make the list?
also the drones
And the deportations too.
And the previous administrations “extraordinary renditions” (AKA kidnapping people) and torture being treated as water under the bridge instead of prosecuted.
Fair point, I should have said one of my bigger complaints.
Yeah, I was thinking about this one. It occured to me I’ve probably got cop energy (big surprise, I identify with Dotty about something) with my pathological honesty and tendency to defer to others and follow the rules. And that’s kind of ironic since, y’know, actual cops don’t have any of that.
That’s what she said! ^^
Just make out already!! <3
Honestly the longer this has been going on, the less romantic tension I’m feeling.
!how so?
In panel 6 here we have the dictionary definition of down bad.
Bit of a whoopsy doodle.
I like that while Dorothy has this moment, Joyce is the one leading *her* by the hand. Really underscores how much they’ve both changed with each other.
I think it’d be dishonest to say it was “because of Joyce”… there are a lot of factors that went into changing her. Getting kidnapped, working with a superhero, relationship with Walky, meeting other people who have been changing too… Joyce is a part of it sure, but she’s not avoiding Yale because of Joyce. She’s avoiding it because she’s changed.
She got accepted to Yale on an essay she wrote about being kidnapped. That isn’t what changed her mind.
Yes, if you can pick one event out of “a lot of factors that went into changing her” and show that she hadn’t changed her mind on this point immediately after it happened, it can’t have been one of those factors.
Also, she sent her essay after she met Joyce, so I guess it can’t have been a factor either.
And she could have only sent that essay in because she still felt she “had to”… a bit of the sunk-cost fallacy. “I mean, it’s what I’ve been saying all along, so I guess I need to send it in” Doesn’t mean she was still gung-ho for Yale at that point. And the realization of getting accepted then is the turning point for realizing… “Hey, maybe that’s not what I want or need anymore”.
But then, as she explained to Becky, she decided she didn’t want to get ahead by using a traumatic situation where someone was killed as a stepping stone.
That is indeed what she said to Becky.
I wonder if she was in denial or something.
She was definitely in denial, but multiple things can also be true at the same time. And that part also fits well into her arc.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/01-everybodys-looking-for-nothing/felloff/
During her Joyce nightmare, Dorothy DOES declare “I’m never leaving you”…
Yeeep.
I totally get where Dorothy is coming from in panels 1 & 2.
It took me some time to realize there was was no option of true peace under a system of oppression and abuse. The government works very hard on institutionally enforcing that they’re the Good Guys. I needed exposure to new ideas to shake me up. But more than that, I needed people who gave me grace while I figured stuff out
Joyce, like me, like Willis, started out embracing some ignorant, offensive ideas. Dorothy helped Joyce challenge some of that. Now Dorothy’s facing her naivete, and I think Joyce will help her. That’s what we love Joyce for – her near infinite forgiveness for people who fuck up but try to do better.
In conclusion, let Dorothy cook!
Now I’m going to see myself out of the comments for a few days so you don’t have to keep listening to this broken record,
to y’all.
Dorothy will get radicalized the exact second a cop puts his hands on Joyce. Which, I hope doesn’t happen, but if she watches a guy in a uniform doing…the kinds of things cops tend to do to young women when they are handling them, she will finally understand the cost of her obedience, and the social order.
“If state violence doesn’t bother you, but resistance does, you’re not peaceful. You’re just obedient.”
That’s a great quote. Do you know who said it?
It’s easy to grow up thinking that being obedient is a good trade-off with authority figures, if you grow up with saintly, attentive parents like Dorothy. I don’t blame her for being a collaborator with authoritarians, because in her life growing up, authority figures were literally always a safe thing for her.
There are a lot of real, living people, who feel the way Dorothy feels; they feel that way, because that is a strategy that has always worked for them, and they haven’t suffered enough incidental abuse and tyranny as a result of that. So, it’s no wonder why they can’t wrap their heads around fighting back against authority; obedience has never caused them any problems, so when they see people having problems with authority, they assume the oppressed are the problem, and not the oppressor.
It’s just something you have to unlearn to become a good person. And it’s hard to unlearn something, when society offers you no benefit to unlearn it. People end up having to wait until the boot heel is on the back of their neck, to realize what everybody else was always complaining about, and hopefully that’s when they have their own epiphany about the subject.
I started as a Republican and fundamentalist (and a dick) in my teens. Exposure to real people gradually made me more radical and anti-authoritarian until I’m a Goth anarchist in my forties. So there’s life for you. It sometimes does a 180.
What if we held hands and kissed at the protest?
I dearly hope that’s where this ends up going.
If Willis hears prayers…
It’s both extremely true that Joyce is why she didn’t go to Yale, but it’s also extremely true that it’s not *just* because of that. She doesn’t want to lose Joyce but also she didn’t really want that dream in the first place. You just caught Dorothy at a time when she hears that question and panics because she wants to yell “I’M *NOT* IN LOVE WITH YOU”
“I wanna protest that I said that out loud”
yeah you want a peace of that—<abbr title="what's this, a Pro-gress/Con-gress thingy? hah"
that is *not* what you tell your future wife.
Man there was a time when I thought Dorothy had rizz. One day, I hope she returns with the rizz.
Joyce seems to had been perfectly rizzed up.
Wasn’t it Rydia who made her realize she couldn’t handle being the president, morally?
I think she contributed to it, though I also think that was kind of building onto things that’d already begun, like the whole RA thing with Roz showing her that there’s a lot of stuff involved in politics, like shmoozing, that aren’t really what she wants to do, too. Like, I feel like Dorothy would probably be a lot more fulfilled as a social worker or part of a charitable organization, etc, than she would be by high level politics.
Basically, Dorothy lost a Hall election to Roz.
And not even close.
Worse – they lost the election to someone WHO WASN’T EVEN RUNNING.