Yeah what are the ovals about? I never directly look at them because they can’t realistically be there and therefore they scare me, but i can’t deny my curiosity.
Glad finally someone else is talking about this. Don’t know why the artist keeps including them. The pictures would be so much better without them.
What’s to understand? Animedingo wants them to JUST TALK TO EACH other while they are standing there talking to each other. Taffy asks a question to highlight that’s what they are doing. GholaHalleck provides an extreme but hilariously wrong answer and Abacus Wizard provides a literalist one that is technically correct and still hilarious.
Honestly, at this point it’s more impressive how the two of them have been managing to consistently make the worst possible decision every strip for like 3 weeks now.
I’ve made choices that could have gotten me charged/convicted of Grand Larceny. At my WORST, I still knew when to slam on the brakes and stop making things worse.
a day late, so maybe nobody will read this. But Talia Lavin was just victim of grand larceny. She’s much more sympathetic than a scumbag developer, and she is upset. But not to the degree that everyone scolding McNitz would presume.
I think the most expensive theft I’ve ever commited was a large potted plant, though I’d argue that was more guerilla redecorating, or plant liberation.
I was with a group of friends and we were very drunk and wanted to go watch a movie, so we walked right into the closed sliding doors of the cinema (because it was past midnight and it closed long before) but somehow bumping into the door made it open. So we climbed up the stairs, slid down the bannister and generally just messed around on the stairs. Then I picked up a large potted plant and put it outside before we went home.
they’re technically young adults, which are basically teenagers that are expected to know better but have yet to accumulate the life experience to do so
That’s a solid argument for Joyce, the problem is Dorothy DOES know better. She knows what they are doing is wrong, but because she’s in the middle of a mental breakdown, she’s convinced herself that it’s OK for her to be an awful person.
Joyce just follows her because Dorothy is the smart one, so if she follows her she must be right. It’s like a game of Lemmings.
I’ll admit that you’re correct, going back and checking. These two really are just AWFUL for each other.
Like, I can’t think of a way to express it besides Joyce taking advantage of Dorothy’s mental state to satisfy her own desires. Joyce probably doesn’t see it that way, but it’s absolutely what is happening.
Why are you determined to phrase this as one of them taking advantage of the other. First with Joyce follows Dorothy and Dorothy knows it’s wrong, now with Joyce using Dorothy to “satisfy her own desires”. Why can’t the explanation be “They’re both into it and being dumb about not waiting until the collateral damage is less.”
Like… they’re literally both into this. No one is taking advantage of anyone. That is absolutely NOT what is happening.
I suppose it’s because I see them both being inherently self-destructive over the last 24-48 hours (in universe), both physically and socially. This story arc has brought out the worst in both of them, at least from my perspective.
I’ll grant that my own perspective can be flawed, but I just can’t shake the nagging feeling that each one of them is magnifying the negative aspects of the other.
describing a woman as having been “taken advantage of” in this kind of situation grates because, at least for me, it feels infantilizing and insulting. not every bad decision that women make was the result of someone engineering that outcome. it isn’t victim blaming, it’s just about recognizing that women have agency and aren’t all infants in need of protection from their own poor decision making abilities. sometimes respecting women as adults and as human beings entails recognizing that women, like anyone, can choose to make stupid decisions about their own lives if they want to.
but like, human behavior also doesn’t neatly divide into “choices made as a result of pure free will” or “choices made as a result of coercion”. there’s an enormous grey area in between because we’re social beings who constantly influence and are influenced by others. personally i do think it’s irresponsible for any person not to acknowledge the ways in which they influence the people around them and their choices but to acknowledge that you can influence the people around you isn’t to admit that you’re actively manipulating or exploiting those people. the two women here can be bad influences on each other, and can fail to fully acknowledge and understand that that’s what’s happening. but they are still adult women with agency. those things can coexist.
Also: and I’m not saying Jon is doing this consciously, I don’t think ANYONE who’s done it is doing it consciously, but the frequency with which people have talked about Joyce as being a lost lamb who gets taken advantage of, especially by Dorothy, went WAAAY up after Joyce got a referral for autism.
Li, you’re not wrong, but that may also have to do with how the stores are being told. Prior to this point, the only time Joyce was portrayed as being subject to manipulation was in reference to her faith and religion. Most of the time, her bad behavior (see: Jacob) seemed to originate from her own actions, entirely.
At almost the exact point she was diagnosed, she also began being a lot less headstrong in how she did things, giving others a chance to take the lead more frequently. End result, she often strikes people as being more passive and manipulable.
What about when she specifically said, “Dorothy’s not the boss of whether she’s the boss of me,” because she wanted to do something? What about going out drinking, which was entirely her idea, and when Dorothy tried to protest that Joyce might get hurt, Joyce was like, “Then I guess you’d better come with me 😏”? What about her relationship with Joe, where she’s been the driving force every step of the way?
I really and truly do not see an increase in passivity or manipulatability. Mostly I see an increase in Joyce doing things, completely of her own free will, that some readers don’t like as much.
“Joyce is being weirdly respectful of Dorothy’s personal space. OH GOD SOMETHING TERRIBLE MUST HAVE HAPPENED. WHO HURT YOU? WHICH 90% OF MY FRIEND GROUP AM I GOING TO PISS OFF IN *THIS* YEAR’S ROOMMATE DRAMA?”
Unlikely for reasons Steamweed already pointed out, but it would be hilarious seeing them trying to share a bed in Dorothy’s room. Or, more to the point, Becky’s room.
Sleeping on it separately would be for the best. Sleeping on it in the same bed… might just escalate things. But nobody is reading this comic to see the characters make good decisions, so here we go.
Unfortunately neither of them are genre savvy enough to realize that they have now abdicated the ability to come clean to tomorrow’s newspaper front page.
Based on my own personal experience, Christian homeschool kids are queer at a rate much higher than the general population. I have several half-formed theories about why, but the data seems to hold when I talk to various other former homeschoolers from different areas.
We already know Daisy was covering the protests and there is zero chance her hornt ass is going to pass up the chance to plaster two girls kissing over the front of the paper.
I don’t know. It’s not going to be on the front page without Daisy making the decision to put it there and if there is no picture, how is Daisy going to find out about it after the fact?
Maybe it was a photo of Amazi-Girl fighting cops and accordingly publish-worthy, then only after it’s released does Daisy notice the kissing in the background.
She very much SHOULDN’T trust Jennifer with real journalism, but more specifically, Daisy has said that politics is her beat. She very reluctantly covered Robin’s rally, for example (and was in the bathroom when Amazi-Girl appeared).
I could easily see Daisy having the pictures and keeping them for herself. Joyce and Dotty panic telltale-heart style and desperately try to get the pictures from her. They go even further down the rabbit hole instead of just coming clean and end up looking 8000% times more suspicious.
What are the odds Sarah, of all people, is the one who catches them in the act and exposes them wide open, for Joyce’s own benefit or something like that?
You fools, MARY KNOWS! AND THERE ARE PROBABLY PICS ON SOCIAL MEDIA OF THE TWO LESBIANS WHO MADE OUT EITHER AS A MIDDLE FINGER TO THE COPS OR AS A WAY TO MAKE THE PROTEST ABOUT THEM! As fun as it would be to see you two Chandler and Monica this, there IS a time factor here. And the longer this goes on, the more it’s going to be cheating! TELL YOUR BOYFRIENDS! IF THEY FIND OUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE, YOU’LL JUST HURT THEM MORE!!!
I still wouldn’t trust that person, because being right on occasion is the only way they’ve managed to survive long enough to tell me. For example, they feel thirsty, decide drinking water will make them less thirsty, and they’re right, but they still donate money to right-wing extremist groups.
Exact replay of Mike telling Danny that Dorothy had a new boyfriend. Danny knew Mike well enough to disbelieve him, but Dorothy was standing right there, looking guilty.
At the end of the day, the boys will be hurt and Dorothy and Joyce will be together. This may be a classic case of “if you ignore the problem for long enough it will solve itself,” i.e. the boys will find out about the cheating and end the relationships without Joyce and Dorothy having to initiate a difficult conversation
Heck, I swear I read it somewhere but now I can’t find it anywhere…
What I remember reading was narrated as a mystery to be solved by a wise king, the mystery being that a woman was pregnant but swore that she had not lain with any man. The king said “…but have you lain with any woman?” and it turns out that she had in fact lain with a female friend of hers, and that friend had just lain with her own husband, so the king concludes that the seed was accidentally passed along from man to woman to woman.
And then there’s an explosion from overhead and a priest falls out of the sky and says “Hey king, I’m a priest that was kidnapped by a band of flying demons, but what you just said was so amazingly true that it made all the demons explode because demons are allergic to truth.”
I swear I am not making this up, though it occurs to me now that I’m not entirely sure whether it was an actual medieval story or some piece of online writing pretending to be one. If anyone knows what I’m talking about I’d love to find out where I read this.
I would be fine with them breaking up with their boyfriends and getting together. It’s better than them continuing cheating. Unfortunately, continuing cheating is what it looks like they’re gonna do, unless Sarah or someone or something else stops them.
Continuing to do what they’re doing (which is NOT cheating, they don’t have a monogamy agreement with the boys) is better than breaking up with them because it gives them more time to realize breaking up is not necessary.
Man, I’m poly and have witnessed several people come to the realization they’re poly, and exactly 0% of those have had successful relationships that started with having to say “we didn’t have a monogamy agreement”.
In some states it’s how the marriage happens, too — in states that allow Quaker weddings, you just get all the witnesses to sign with no preacher/judge/officiant needed aside from issuing the license in the first place.
Do you think Walky would think it is OK to sleep with somebody else while he’s dating Dorothy? Like Amber?
Do you think Joe would think it is OK to sleep with somebody else while he’s dating Joyce?
This is an argument of consent, it requires ENTHUSIASTIC, approval before the event takes place. Your argument is “He didn’t say no, so he consented” which is WILDLY problematic.
There’s a certain class of person who is bound and determined to push the idea that monogamy isn’t the default assumption for most people in relationships in the US in the 2020.
Meanwhile, in my personal experience, recognizing this and accommodating for it is the only way to actually successfully date as a poly person.
Even under this interpretation, they should still tell the boys now. Why not, right? No one will be upset, since they don’t have a monogamy agreement.
Even if more time allows Joyce and Dorothy to realize they don’t have to break up, deciding that then blindsiding the boys with the revelation they’ve been sexing it up for days/weeks doesn’t leave them time to realize anything. Even worse if they get caught first.
If you have to rules-lawyer that you weren’t cheating, you’re cheating. Even if there wasn’t an explicit monogamy agreement (which very well could have happened off-panel), one is heavily implied by their circumstances. Hell, Joyce explicitly states in this very strip that she is cheating, knowingly and intentionally.
There’s a tiny amount of leeway where a situation like this might not cheating, if there was no explicit or implicit monogamy agreement, and you genuinely had no reason to believe the other person expected you to be monogamous. Given monogamy is by far the default in the US, that’s basically only ever true if you were introduced to somebody in a poly context. Anything else and you should assume monogamy is the default and you need an explicit non-monogamy agreement if you intend otherwise.
You just like Dotty and Joyce, and want them to be together and do not care about what they do to get to that point, even if they’re actively disrespecting Joe and Walky. Some of you need to just be more open to admitting this than saying off the wall things looking for loopholes absolutely no person actually believes in.
Joyce, Dorothy and even Willis has acknowledged this is cheating, it’s a story line about cheating.
I do agree that at this point a double breakup is the least harmful thing generally. It’s that they were acting like they’re going to turn into pumpkins at midnight if they didn’t do it now, and at the same time like it was a done deal, almost like Joe and Walky wouldn’t have much to say. Blanket conversation aside, Joyce was in deep romancing with Joe just the night before IIRC.
There’s an on-and-off feel of callousness nestled in their planning
Yeah the lack of documented discussion here is…something? For a moment there, I thought it was going to play out that Dorothy had decided to break up, while Joyce had decided to come clean, and that was going to be our misunderstanding. That it now sounds like the plan was for both to break up with their partners and immediately get together is a bit of a surprise given we haven’t seen them actually talk to each other about what they want, longer-term.
I mean, if they aren’t interested in poly, and want to keep seeing each other, that is what they should do. They just need to also tell their partner about the cheating when they do so.
Even if they are interested in poly, there partners might not be, leading to a break up.
And even if their partners are open to polyamory, they might well not be willing to move past the cheating. A lot of people break up with partners who cheat on them.
You… you can’t cheat on the person you cheated on your partner with, by sleeping with your fricken partner! That’s literally just sleeping with the right person. OMG these idiots.
Its future past cheating! She planned to break up to Joe and date Dorothy proper, so she has cheated on her future intent with her currently past actions!
It’s a quantum partner. Only by cheating with someone can you determine whether they are your partner, but but by cheating you change their partner status.
I mean. She’s not entirely wrong. The implication seems to be that she’s agreed to date Dorothy and break up with Joe. By sleeping with/blowing Joe rather than breaking up with him, she is in some capacity cheating on the agreement she made with Dorothy. It’s a much more “reasonable” cheating but it’s not like… not cheating.
True story, I had friends who, before they started dating, would always be like, “I’ll walk with you” when one was leaving– and they did go in the same direction, so it made sense, especially since this was usually at night, but it was also pretty clear at least one had a crush. And then one day one left and the other didn’t get up to go with them, and things had felt strange before… once friend A left, I asked friend B something like, “So, are you two fighting or did you finally get together?”
1. Dorothy says no because she is actually serious about Joyce and not just doing it as an idle fling. Walky is hurt.
2. Dorothy says yes, even though she isn’t into the idea, because it let’s her feel less bad about cheating. Kind of like the people who commented “its not cheating if they become poly”.
Honestly, I’d prefer the second since it has better trashfire potential:
Dorothy sidelines the relationship with Walky without ending it, extending Walky’s pain. Dorothy feels jealous of Joyce’s relationship with Joe, but doesn’t have a good way to handle it. Joe accepts because of self-loathing and idolization, but is constantly feeling hurt, especially if he never gets a chance to work through the whole cheating thing and instead just skips to poly.
Unfortunately a super common viewpoint that makes me absolutely roll my eyes.
But also THIRD possible trash fire:
3. Everyone says yes. Everyone is really into it, but because it started in a shitty way and none of them know wtf they’re doing it’s a total mess that ends up in a worse break up than they would have had just splitting at the outset.
In option three there’s the narrative benefit of: they’ve all grown and learned and might try more healthy polyamory in the future.
No, I am saying that she isn’t serious about Walky. Walky is an idle fling, and not one where she wants to put the effort in if she has a serious relationship alternative.
Serious relationships are work, and Dorothy doesn’t have that much free time in her recreation quadrant.
I feel like somebody, maybe Agatha but also possibly someone else, will mention polyamory to either Joyce or Dorothy, and they’ll go “Ah! That’s it! That’s my Perfectly Ethical Solution!” And then they’ll proceed to fail spectacularly at actually applying the concept to their current situation, and make things infinitely worse.
I see their default is still set to monogamy, and it’s like, does it really have to be that way, especially because of how many of the others casually joke about the two of them? I can’t help but think Joe and Walky would be willing to make things work with them.
But alas, this is Dumbing of Age, so reasonable discussion and smart choices aren’t a guarantee. I dunno, I just want everybody to be happy I guess. 😀
See this makes sense to me. I feel like there’s cheating, there’s the polycule, and then there’s “we are teenagers and not exclusive, it’s okay if we date other people while dating each other.” That’s a totally normal thing. It’s not like these people are married. But it needs to be a discussion they have that everybody agrees to, and they didn’t even have a talk about being exclusive in the first place so – yeah. This could be easily fixed and it very clearly is just gonna get messier. Which I am here for, with my popcorn.
I’m not really sure what the difference between “we are teenagers and not exclusive, it’s okay if we date other people while dating each other.” and being poly is.
Unless it’s where the people involved aren’t serious about each other enough to commit yet, which is definitely not how anyone here is thinking.
At least in my own dating experience, “we are not exclusive” meant two very different things depending on who was saying it:
– “I just want to be in my slut era and have a lot of sex”
– “I am keeping things relatively non-sexual until I decide which of my options I am going to move forward with”
And in general, bad things happened when two people who had different vibes on this chart started casually dating.
Another data point from personal experience: among monogamous/culturally monogamous types, the former typically means “not exclusive *yet*” or “not really serious, just fooling around.”
E.g. i have been monogamous with my spouse for years but for the first couple months ths of our relationship we weren’t exclusive because it wasn’t a serious thing. When it became a serious thing, we stopped dating other people. I feel like this is pretty normal, but don’t mean to imply anything about the way things Truly Are or Should Be.
I see poly as “pursuing deep relationships” whereas non-exclusive dating is more like “I can’t make commitments right now“.
If your desire is to eventually be monogamous then you should do non-exclusive dating. Going the poly route while eventually wanting monogamy is a shitty thing to do to your partners. You essentially keep them in your pocket for relationship security until “the one” comes along.
Other people might have different understandings, however.
Those are all kind of my takes on it, which is why I don’t see this non-exclusive, but non-poly option as relevant here. Joyce is serious about this. She might lean towards poly. She might be torn between two serious relationships. She’s not taking them both casually.
Or of someone who feels deeply conflicted and accused and is inexperienced and just figuring out new experiences for the first time and is completely overwhelmed.
I suspect a lot of folks gut reactions are going to boil down to where they fall on the “dumber at that age” vs. “never was that dumb”.
Frankly, I was a terminally horny guy escaping religion and trying to figure myself out, and until she started this latest arc I had been really identifying with Joyce, but seeing her making these specific decisions has more or less destroyed the representation that I had been feeling.
Oh, it’s definitely understandable — it hasn’t reached quite the level of sublime idiocy that was my most dumb “I was cheated on” story — but I think WHY one understands it’s plausible is going to inform how one feels about it.
Huh, good point. My own dumbness didn’t really extend to relationships, so this all feels like an implausible thing that only happens in melodramatic fiction.
Oh jeez, I’m envious of you. I had front row seats to the most relationship-based stupidity IRL in my best friend at the time who was just a fucking menace to the people she dated. (And not very cool to me either but I figured that out later when I got some self-respect).
This is such a good point, and as sometime who has never had such powerful, brain scramblingly strong romantic/sexual feelings that are being portrayed here, it does seem silly but because similar things happen in media all the time I’ve grown used to the idea that it is an experience other humans have. I wonder if people would be able to relate more if they reflect on times other feelings have caused them to make bad decisions which hurt people (for me, it’s more instances of getting too angry or frustrated). None of which is an excuse or saying it’s not a bad decision but as you say, we tend to have more empathy for bad decisions we feel like we might have made ourselves.
she was aware (based on him reminding her about his issues with infidelity) that if Joe had all the information that he might not have consented in the first place, which is the bit that’s super uncomfortable for me. Like I was on Team Poly but now i’m really not about it. Joyce has shown a supreme lack of care and thoughtfulness to BOTH of her potential partners. I’m team Dorothy/Joe now. why not.
My membership of Team Poly was based on the hope that they’d both tell their boyfriends, then attempt a polycule to avoid making any decisions*, followed by everything going horribly wrong in all the best ways.
This is very much not that.
*Just to add: this is not intended as any sort of comment on poly relationships, which certainly don’t simplify things. But do these doofi know that? Informed decisions have no place here.
Makes perfect sense to get on that ship early. After all, Joyce giving Joe head and then going down on Dotty can only mean one thing: extremely embarrassing pregnancy
Yeah this is horrid. At least with Jacob, she was still caught up a bit in the idea of predestination, she had a bunch of friends (more worldly friends, who she trusted) egging her on, some of it was a genuine fear of admitting she messed up when talking to Harrison, and the kiss itself was a lone impulse. Not that any of it was *fantastic* behavior, but it stemmed largely from ineptitude. That she didn’t learn a damn thing from that and is just, like, gleefully going along with this, while creating more fallout for Joe in the end, is grody.
Nah, she’s not doing any more cheating. She’s just having her friend sleep over, which is just a regular and normal thing they do. Like Dorothy says, it would be more suspicious not to.
And Sarah will be there.
There’s no way anything untoward could happen.
This arc has exhausted me. For the first time in reading this comic daily since ’16 I need to take a break. Yesterday was a big one with the words “infidelity” coming out of Joe’s mouth.
I’ve wanted these two together for ages, but not like this.
No amount of Joe doing the right thing makes Joyce obligated to be with him. But he does deserve the truth.
The arc where Joyce concretely tried to steal another girl’s boyfriend for kinda malicious reasons didn’t drive you off, but falling in love with her best friend and struggling to reconcile it with her relationship does?
In that arc, a lot less boundaries were crossed. She was no doubt flirty with Jakes in regards to the step challenges, but it was pretty innocent until the lunch with Radiah and of course the lunch with his brother.
I can personally sympathize with Joyce a lot in that arc too. I grew up with the personal view that “I was the dork that attractive people aren’t attracted to”, and once that worldview was shattered, yeah I didn’t make the best decisions.
This one is also hard because of the trauma linkage. I really do want these two together, but I have a hard time watching them start a relationship with so many unhealthy things going on.
Listen, I loved that arc, but it wasn’t innocent. She started off by explicitly trying to break Jacob and Raidah up and only stopped because she and Jacob kissed and HE didn’t want anything to do with her after she “made him” lie (which always struck me as strange because he could have just told the truth and looked at her weird in the first place)
Anyway, not innocent, definitely crossing boundaries, explicitly splitting up a couple and was successful at it!
And that’s the key to that arc and why it seems different. She broke them up, but she also didn’t get Jacob and she seemed to have learned something in the process. Though recent events suggest maybe she’ll need a few more lessons before it sticks.
Is it too much to continue hoping that Joyce is panromantic but heterosexual and still doesn’t realize those are two different things yet? Maybe she’ll figure it out when they “spend the night together”.
Joyce has seemed firmly hetero to me for the last ten years so I think that would be a great story direction, realizing that love and sexual attraction do not always occur concurrently. It would make for great drama too, and feel more true to the established characters.
Unfortunately with Willis apparently stating that this is the end game ship, it’s not gonna happen and ruins the fun of speculating.
Gonna be real with you, I think Dorothy and Joyce are insanely bad for each other.
Joyce puts Dorothy on a pedestal as the pinnacle of perfection. If Dorothy says to do something, clearly that must be the smart decision. Joyce basically uses Dorothy as an excuse, especially lately, since Dorothy is in the middle of a mental breakdown and is burning everything in her life to cinders because she cannot handle her trauma.
Look at the protest. Both of them, one after the other, ran into a lethally dangerous situation not just for them, but for people they claimed to care about, for ZERO reason. Dorothy did it because she’s having a breakdown, and Joyce did it because Dorothy gave her an excuse.
It’s insanely toxic, and I can’t see this relationship ever being healthy.
Joyce is obsessed with Dorothy, no doubt. I’m super straight but I’ve heard hardcore girl crushes, just with no desire for sex but I wanna be around them all the time and also wish I was them. That’s the vibe I get from Joyce. She’s obsessed with Dorothy, but not into lesbian sex the way she’s clearly super horny for dick. Obviously the slipshine is gonna prove me wrong but just saying, that’s how her character has always strongly felt to me, which is part of why this whole arc felt so out of left field to me and bugged me so much
Oh that’s funny, I wrote out my entire comment based on misunderstanding your first sentence. I thought you were saying they were insanely down bad for each other, rather than just bad for each other
This was my thinking too. Joyce has not displayed any actually homosexual longings. We’ve even seen dreams, and they’ve centered around getting D (and being ashamed of it).
Last comment and then I’ll stop lol. I’ve just been thinking about this nonstop and I had kind of a lightbulb moment about Joyces whole “what is sex” conversation and I think it had a huge impact on her. Here’s my theory, and how I personally would like it to play it for what I think would feel true to the characters (though I’m sure it won’t):
Joyce loved Dorothy for ages but didn’t consider a relationship with her because she’s straight (and she IS straight, at least mostly). But then when she reevaluates the definition of sex and thinks she’s had sex with Dorothy (laundry), she realizes that if she’s had sex with Dorothy she’s bi and that means a relationship is an option. I think that revelation was a big moment that unlocked new possibilities for her. And of course she wants to date Dorothy if she can, because she loves Dorothy! But now she’s gonna learn that sitting on a laundry machine is very different from sex and while she likes kissing Dorothy, she doesn’t like pussy. Maybe she doesn’t hate it, but it doesn’t make her super turned on like weenies do.
I have a character like that, and I’m not a huge fan of Dorothy/Joyce, but I feel like in this specific instance that would be a massive explosive misstep. And like, this whole arc has been a misstep, but blowing up two ships only for Joyce to end up still heterosexual at the end would feel ultra problematic in a ton of different ways. Like, there is room for a romantic/sexuality miscalibration storyline in the comic, I just feel like it’s not a great idea with these specifically. Like, before the kiss? Yeah, I could see it going that way. After the double down is too late I think.
But there might be… oh wait, this won’t work in the USA, you guys don’t have this word, or at least didn’t yonks ago when I was there …
wanky blanky hanky panky, cos it’s what we do when horny (but concerned about outcomes of being horny with someone else)
Then there’s the problem of manky blanky…
If you’re feeling so traumatized that it’s making you nauseous, I’m going to very gently nudge you to consider whether continuing to read this comic is healthy or a good idea for you.
I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better, and it might be a good idea for you to skip it rather than let a daily comic unsettle you to that sever a degree.
Do what you gotta do, though. Just wanted to reach out.
I know Dorothy has convinced herself that she’s sparing Walky or some nonsense, as per usual, but planning “breakup speeches” kind of highlight how much she has botched things with him for ages now.
Not a conversation or anything, just her talking *at* him and just kind of putting him back on the shelf like she’s done before.
I like Dorothy, but Joyce is going to be in for an ordeal with her if those same bad habits pop up with her, and Walky’s probably going to be better off seeking Amber again, potentially. It’s kind of depressing to think that current Amber is possibly going to be more emotionally honest than current Dorothy with how much of her PTSD she’s buried under her mattress.
It was a standout moment at the climax of a newsworthy event that may well have gotten nationwide coverage. They’re lucky to have made it this far, and they’ll be twice as lucky to make it another hour.
It’s REALLY funny to me how many people are absolutely furious that as of yet no cosmic judge has descended from the heavens to smite these two and ruin their lives for…. being messy college freshmen who are still in the process of figuring out themselves and their sexuality.
It’s really interesting to me how raw the anger is, how much people directly act – and seem to think about the characters – as if they were real people they actual knew, real friends they had.
Figuring out sexuality does not require or excuse cheating. The Joyce/Joe relationship was developed for YEARS and people got emotionally invested in it. We’re angry to see Joe thrown away so callously after all this development. Yes, it’s just a few months for the characters and they’re dumb freshmen, but in real life it’s years of emotional investment that feels like it’s being stomped on
Thank you. I’m tired of people saying we shouldn’t feel bothered by the bad behavior of characters many of us enjoyed reading in this comic for literal years.
Yes, this! I’m like “We just got them, I don’t want to lose them!” But Joyce is being so bad to him. I love enemies-to-lovers, it’s what hooked me so much on Joe/Joyce, but cheating doesn’t fall into that trope for me. They were so good together. 🙁
Thank you — this exactly!! Joe & Joyce have been growing and changing for years and years. Especially Joe has an incredible arc when you look back at everything he’s experienced.
I’m actually less upset currently, since last strip made it clear that Joe is going to be a focus of this storyline and not just, like, shunted to the side for the sake of the One True Pairing. Not that I’d really expect that from Willis but the suddenness of the Joyce/Dorothy confession and kiss didn’t land for me.
(And no, I’m not a homophobe for using the word “sudden,” despite it being a common complaint of people who don’t like queer relationships in fiction. Willis has directly admitted that this whole romance moved faster than they intended it to with the protest as a backdrop)
The irony is that’s pretty much what happened in the Walkyverse. Joyce and Joe had unexpected chemistry, so much so that it surprised Willis, and so they had to pull back and quash it so the OTP of Joyce and Walky could survive.
So on the one hand, having been a longtime reader since the It’s Walky days, I had been excited for Joyce and Joe to have a chance at letting that chemistry flourish; on the other hand, it’ll be really, REALLY funny if Joeyce gets slapped down by the narrative again.
Yeah, same boat. I literally just wanted to see Joyce feel a little bad lol. Dorothy and Walky can be whatever, I crave the mess on that side, I just needed to see Joyce remember that she actually cared for this dude at one point.
This comic has helped me through a lot of tough times. It was a huge part of how I came to terms with my own bisexuality, and I’m really grateful for that. Sometimes, yes, fictional characters do matter more than real people because they’re there when others can’t be or won’t be. These characters helped me when I was down, and that connection means something.
That’s why this latest development is such a gut punch. Joyce and Joe’s relationship had years of emotional buildup. Watching that get swept aside, especially in a way that’s going to hurt Becky and Dina (a couple I really love) and likely Walky too, feels like a step back. I know Willis isn’t trying to say bisexuals are cheaters or push the idea that all close female friendships must become romantic, but unfortunately, it does come across that way in this context.
This isn’t coming from hate or outrage. It’s coming from someone who loves the story, loves the characters, and just feels hurt by the direction. I get that it’s fiction, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.
The “close female friendship must become romantic” trope isn’t something Willis is necessarily intentionally pushing, but it’s a broader media pattern that’s been discussed for years. It shows up when stories consistently take emotionally intimate relationships between women and reframe them as romantic or sexualoften because audiences or creators feel like that’s the logical conclusion.
Yes, there are hints that Joyce may be somewhere on the bi spectrum, and that’s valid. But the issue for me isn’t her queerness—it’s the timing and the emotional buildup with Joe. From our perspective as readers, we’ve had years of seeing their relationship develop, but in the comic’s timeline, it’s only been two or three weeks since they got together. That disconnect between real-world time and in-comic time makes the sudden shift to Dorothy feel jarring and unearned, even if the groundwork was being laid in some ways.
Actually, I went back and counted it! Assuming each chapter in each book is a day (which typically is the case) they officially started dating in Joementum which means they’ve been together 9 days!
Been discussed by who?? I don’t really think that is a thing and if it is i don’t see how it would be a problem? That sounds really cool wish it actually happened.
.Just because you haven’t seen this discussed doesn’t mean it isn’t real. The idea that close female friendships often get reframed as romantic is a pattern that’s been written about and critiqued in media circles for years. It’s not about saying queer representation is bad. It’s about how emotional intimacy between women is often only validated when it becomes romantic, while close male friendships are allowed to stay platonic.
Writers at places like bongo Media (“Compulsory Romance and the Erasure of Female Friendship”), The Atlantic (“Why Is Platonic Intimacy So Rare in TV and Film?”), and The Mary Sue (“The Loss of Female Friendship in Popular Media”) have talked about this exact issue. It’s also been discussed in queer fandoms and academic work like Joseph Brennan’s paper on queerbaiting.
The point isn’t that Joyce and Dorothy can’t happen. It’s that the way it happened feels familiar in a frustrating way, especially when it sidelines other well-developed emotional arcs like Joyce and Joe.
For anyone confused, I referenced B*t* Media. The site seems to auto-change the word to “bongo,” but that is the actual name of the publication. I’ve censored it myself to avoid the filter and to respect the forum’s preference for avoiding that word, while still providing clarity about the source.
chiming in here to say that, below, i mentioned trying to find any evidence articles by these titles existed and all i could find was this comic’s comments page
If you’re actually interested in what I was trying to say, not the tangled thread and meltdown, I posted a new comment. You’ll have to search my name to find it. I’d rather express my opinion cleanly and clearly in a fresh space than let it get buried in the mess above.
My favorite part is the number of people who have just massive meltdowns about the sociopolitical impilications of *checks notes* a comic strip teenager discovering her sexuality.
Some of these folks need to touch grass in the worst way.
Honestly what I see is people constantly trying to act like anyone who thinks cheating is not cool is bananas and try and convince everyone it’s not cheating. So confirmation bias maybe. Like I’m reading the comments and mostly noticing people like you mocking others for emotional investment and you’re seeing people go off the rails over cheating.
When really we just have different viewpoints and should chill out (and not mock each other). Like yeah I get invested in characters otherwise why do I care what happens in a story? And to be real I would have side-eyed this behaviour when I was 15 so it’s not like immature people just all do stuff like this. I don’t think they’re evil or something absurd but I’m really disappointed and not having a fun time with the current arc. That’s fine.
There are a loooot of different threads. A lot of different conversations that are all happening at once, varying in frequency and intensity and volume.
— Conversation #1: people reacting directly to the comic’s events, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.
— Conversation #2: people reacting negatively to the positive reactions to the comics, often descending into “what is WRONG with you, how can you not be upset right now? Don’t you know that cheating is morally wrong?” and sometimes also, “I feel sorry for your partners in real life, since you obviously cheat on them.”
— Conversation #3: negative reactions to Conversation #2, often starting with, “Come on, it’s just a story, it’s okay that some people like different drama in their web comics than you do, none of these are real people with real feelings,” but sometimes descending into, “It’s really weird to get this upset about fiction, are y’all okay?” or ruder.
— Conversation #4: negative reactions to Conversation #3, often to the tune of, “It’s actually very normal to get emotionally attached to fictional characters, why are you talking about me like I’m crazy just because I don’t like fictional cheating?”
— Conversation #5: meanwhile, mostly unrelated to the prior four conversations, some people have occasionally commented on cheating in general, saying stuff like, “Man, this isn’t cheating to me,” often reacting to direct prompts from Conversation #2, where some people have asked the commentariat, “Is this not cheating to you?!”
— Conversation #6: negative reactions to conversation #5, mostly using it as evidence that people who ship Joyce/Dorothy are “willing to rationalize ANYTHING” and “bending over backwards to explain why this isn’t cheating, just because it’s two women 🙄”, mostly missing that Conversation #5 people are mostly talking about their own real lives and their own real relationships, where they’ve genuinely and fairly got a different standard for what cheating is, one which their partners are on board with.
…a lot of us are kind of talking past each other. Folks in Conversation #4 feel targeted by Conversation #3, but they’re not the targets, they’re just getting caught in the crossfire.
Also, since I made the original list, we’ve also got:
— Conversation #7: “why is Joyce suddenly a lesbian and/or bisexual? I thought she was straight! Willis is just pushing an agenda here. Ugh! Some of you just wanna jack off over ~sexy~ lesbians and you don’t care how many good men get hurt!”
— Conversation #8: a negative reaction to conversation #7, which is mostly “Boy, it sure does suck that so many commenters are queerphobic,” but DOES admittedly sometimes descend into claiming “everyone” who’s upset is “only” upset because they hate queerness. Not often, and I’ve personally been trying to call it out when I see it, but it does happen.
— Conversation #9: “Hey, what? I’m not queerphobic! I do think this came on kind of suddenly, and/or I just don’t like cheating, but Joyce being bi isn’t part of why I’m upset! No one’s saying that!”
^ Conversation #9 is, again, feeling understandably targeted by Conversation #8, but going too far in claiming that no one has been queerphobic.
But to Strawb’s point, that’s your viewpoint on the discourse. I understand that you’re trying to be, but it’s not necessarily any more objective than anyone else’s.
Like this frames it as 1) Initial reactions, positive and negative
followed by 2) negative reactions to the positive reactions
as if that’s the starting point for all the negativity. As well as giving the worse examples for one side and much more reasonable ones for the other.
There have definitely been people reacting directly to negative reactions in 1). And there have been people with some pretty messed up pro-poly opinions as well – like monogamy being an unnatural religious control mechanism or “monos” inventing the idea of cheating because they’re jealous and controlling.
It’s really easy in big contentious discussions like this to gloss over problems with posts basically on your “side” and concentrate on the problematic parts of those arguing with you.
I… don’t think I claimed to be objective? I’m not! I’m absolutely on one team. And sure, I’ve seen much worse reactions on one side than on the other.
I think laying out the different layers of conversation still helps. You don’t have to agree with the specific examples of things being said for the rest of the post to still have some value.
Like this frames it as 1) Initial reactions, positive and negative
followed by 2) negative reactions to the positive reactions
as if that’s the starting point for all the negativity.
This bit, I don’t understand. Are you saying some people were negative before they even saw the comic? What starting point did I miss?
There have definitely been people reacting directly to negative reactions in 1)
??? Reacting to other people’s negative reactions before they had negative reactions? Are you talking about people anticipating negativity? Because I didn’t see a lot of that, but it’s not like it wasn’t completely possible to predict what general camps were gonna form, based on the last cheating storyline…
And there have been people with some pretty messed up pro-poly opinions as well – like monogamy being an unnatural religious control mechanism or “monos” inventing the idea of cheating because they’re jealous and controlling.
You’re talking about two people there, one of whom just commented for the first time today, and both of which are reacting to the societal-wide negativity towards polyamory, though Vic has also been the recipient of some pretty nasty allegations prior to today in this very comment section just for talking about their own personal definition of cheating, so like, if I were him, I might also be lashing out.
Anyway, let’s add Conversation #6b, slotting it in between 6 and 7, for “people reacting negatively to Conversation #6, sometimes going as far as saying that monogamy is unnatural and that monos are all toxic.”
Again: not everyone can possibly read all threads, we’ve had hundreds of comments and on one memorable occasion as many as two thousand, but also.
Let’s not pretend queer and poly readers who come into this comment section already on high alert are jumping at shadows? It’s not cool, but it’s also not exactly difficult to understand and empathize with, given the state of society at large.
I think we mono people can handle being called monos and sometimes told that maybe monogamy is the real evil, tbqh. We’re the ones running the world, while their relationship preferences are literally illegal on six of the seven continents, and there’s several asterisks on Africa.
ALL THAT SAID, if I had it to do otherwise, I definitely wouldn’t have included the specific quotes I did on Conversation #2!
For one thing, the “I feel sorry for your real-life partners” was much more in response to Conversation #5, and more in the minority of responses to Conversation #1. For another, I really meant to split that first quote up, because there was a bit of an escalation, I think.
It started with: “Why are some of you happy? This is so wrong!”
And some people stayed there, absolutely. No one who was part of any individual conversation wave was saying all of it, every conversational wave had some people who were more chill and some people who were more on edge.
And most of the arguments happening between Conversation #1 and Conversation #2 were, like everyone else, talking past each other, as some folks from Conversation #1 were going “omg yes my ship!” and some of them were saying “I really don’t care about Joe, I’m just happy these two are finally together,” but rarely was anyone initially saying anything about cheating being okay, especially not in real life.
And some of the negative responses to Conversation #1 were also talking about it in terms of pure fiction, like, “Man, I don’t understand how anyone can want something bad to happen to characters they claim to like,” that sort of thing, but a lot of the negative responses were from people specifically upset that the cheating was being glossed over or ignored… and some of them were, yes, incredulous that anyone could be okay with cheating in general, rather than just not caring about fictional cheating.
Which led to a fair bit of what I bet Conversation #2 people would characterize as saying, “Cheating is awful! It hurts people!” — and getting back responses of, “Who cares?”
But I maintain that there was subtext being missed by both parties, where “Cheating is awful [in real life, and as a result I don’t enjoy it in fiction]!” was meeting “Who cares [because this isn’t real life, so no real people are being hurt]?”
Like, by FAR the biggest miscommunication and sense of tension I keep seeing is people getting caught in the crossfire.
Conversation #4 people have every right to feel aggrieved, especially because some Conversation #3 people are going so far as to either say outright or strongly imply that some folks here are overidentifying with fictional characters to the point where it’s delusional. Super not cool!
I just also think that Conversation #3 people also have every right to feel aggrieved about what was being said about them in Conversation #2, or Conversation #5.
Like, inasmuch as there are sides here, there are certainly bad actors on both sides. But of course I’ll cop to thinking the veiled and sometimes overt queerphobia some of the anti-Joyce/Dorothy people are slinging around is worse than most of what’s being said by the pro-Joyce/Dorothy people. Just because of, like, the systemic power behind it.
* Asterisk because, well, I fully understand that some of the worry I myself have expressed sounds like concern-trolling. I really am kind of worried about some of the more extreme things I’ve seen expressed — people talking about this storyline in ways that sound very much like they’re being triggered, as well as some people just generally echoing sentiments like “the purpose of art is moral instruction”, which just… never leads anywhere good.
And I worry about the kids in the grip of this decade’s moral panic, where you’re very much not allowed to like any kind of art that isn’t morally perfect. Where you’re only supposed to like Morally Pure ships.
I really genuinely worry about those kids, because I got caught up in that for a little while, and it was so bad for my mental health.
It’s hard not to be reminded of that by some of the discussions here, but I really have been trying not to paint with a broad brush.
Perhaps I phrased that first part badly (over using negative).
In 1) people have both positive and negative reactions to the comic.
Your 2) is all about people reacting negatively to the positive reactions to the comics. And you’re framing it as if that’s where all the conflict in the comments comes from. The rest of your Conversations derive from these people reacting to people who aren’t upset about the cheating in the comic.
My point is there’s also a 2b) People reacting negatively to the negative reactions to the comics. Not all the sickos side is defensive reactions to your Conversation 2.
I genuinely didn’t see a lot of 2b! I saw a lot of 3s being mistaken for 2bs. A lot of “hey, I’m allowed to not enjoy this story!” objections, being consistently met with, “Of course you are. I’m not upset that people aren’t enjoying the storyline, I’m upset that I’m being accused of being morally bankrupt.”
Li you’re like one of the most sensible people I see on here and I totally agree with you (broadly speaking).
I do think we’re picking up on different things but that was really my point. So many comments we’re all going to have our biases hilighting different ones and clearly this arc is a touchy subject leading to overreactions.
Oh for sure. I’ve been trying to keep in mind: darn it, not everyone on either side is saying all the stuff I’ve seen said! It’s definitely not fair to talk about either side like we bear collective responsibility for it.
Not everyone who’s upset about Joyce/Dorothy has a Sailor Moon avatar, for example. That was just one weirdo!
There’s also an uptick on today’s comments of people being like “wow everyone SURE IS wildly overreacting to the cheating,” which sound kinda like they’re coming here from BlueSky or something and haven’t actually read the comments…
And what sucks is I feel like we’ve been calming down overall, with a couple of people explaining why they’re upset on both sides but not in a way that’s provoking more argument… but those new comments would sure get under my skin if I were on that “side”, orz.
Reposting from yesterday bc I’m still seeing “Willis has said this is endgame” comments, and no? They haven’t?
– They’ve said the “queerbaiting” strip with Daisy was meant to wink at the audience and reassure them that the tension WAS going to be resolved eventually.
– They’ve compared this to Leslie and Ann (Parks & Recreation) and JD and Turk (Scrubs) and talked about how they did get to thinking about how cool it would be if either of those shows had actually Gone There, and then realized hey, they’re the author of a similar situation, they had the power! They could go there!
– They’ve talked about having always envisioned Joyce going to Dorothy through some type of adversity and quoting the Book of Ruth at her again, this time romantically, and they’ve talked about realizing halfway through the protest story that it was happening, and hastening to add more wedding type imagery to the scene.
…but none of these things have to mean the ship is endgame, and even if it IS, endgame is a million years away — Dorothy and Joyce could break up tomorrow and then still wind up together in a far-future DoA epilogue.
Like, it wasn’t a literal marriage. And even if it had been, marriages end in divorce all the time.
Man, reading Willis’ unfiltered thoughts/answers on Tumblr is making me think he sits among us here in the comment section under a pen name. The vibe and energy is exactly the same.
Well, I’m sorry for infuriating you. If it helps, you can keep an eye out for my avatar and bright red username and then skip past when you see them. I do that for a few users, and it makes things much nicer.
I imagine there’s no real endgame for this series seeing how we’ve seen so many people get together and break up. I used to think Danny and Amazi-girl was endgame, after all!
Definitely Dina/Becky. Danny/Sal SEEM very stable right now and also cute together, but I wonder if Willis won’t eventually want to explore what Danny would be like in a relationship with a guy? Danny and Sal can still get back together before endgame, though!
I’ve gotta know, where are y’all getting the vibes that Danny is trans other than him being generally a good egg? /genuine question
Like, I’m not opposed at all and think it would be a good storyline, I just see it come up a lot and wanna know what I’m missing in text because I haven’t really seen it. Idk why, I’ve always gotten those vibes off of Billie, not Danny.
Like, it’s not that Cis People Never Do (whatever thing), of course, but sometimes a character just resonates.
(I’m nb, Malaya resonated. I also get some agender vibes from Dina. But I honestly feel like a clumsy baby deer in terms of having any kind of Trans Radar. I barely have a gaydar.)
I think there are definite indicators in what they’ve said that Dorothy/Joyce isn’t going to immediately evaporate, and that they won’t break up in a way where they can’t still be friends afterwards, but not “they’ll never break up, ever!”
(And that second one is me reading into Willis saying that their interactions, and Joyce accidentally saying gay stuff, are one of their favorite things about writing DoA.)
I mean, I think yes and no? I think Joyce/Dorothy finally resolving their romantic tension was very much supposed to be romantic. I don’t think the cheating is supposed to be romantic, so much as that Joyce and Dorothy are currently caught between the “excited to sneak around” and the “guilt about sneaking around”.
I’ve never cheated or been tempted to cheat, but it’s my understanding that people find it somewhat exhilarating, between that high crashing back down to earth and guilt and the reality of hurting people you care about.
Except that resolving their romantic tension was the cheating. It was the Kiss that got the wedding imagery. And that wasn’t just the characters finding it exhilarating, but the author framing the scene that way.
I mean, the author framing it that way conveyed the characters’ feelings.
I genuinely do not think there is anything going on right now or before that could be construed as “endorsing cheating”, but framing is subjective, so. 🙂
Really and truly: I don’t think we can say for sure how this is being framed until the high of New Relationship Energy combined with the unfamiliar spice of Taboo has worn off.
I think this is a false high before a fall. Or a Fools’ Spring, you might say.
Which is weird because Joyce had a whole moment unpacking that after Jacob blew up in her face. Complete with that exact “atheists don’t feel bad about hurting people” misconception and then realizing that whoops, yes they do.
intransitive verb
To be concerned with or find fault with insignificant details. synonym: quibble.
To criticize or find fault with (someone or something) in a petty way.
verb
To correct minutiae or find fault in unimportant details; to kvetch.
To pick nits – lice eggs – from someone’s hair.
Be overly critical; criticize minor details.
Meanwhile, what Nadamás actually said to Jon: “[The fact that it’s weird and that Joyce already learned that atheists do have morals] might be a clue that that’s not what’s happening in the current storyline.”
That’s not an unimportant detail to criticize. It’s kind of the whole foundation upon which Jon’s comment rested.
“oppositional”? I think that describes what you’re talking about?
I might also say contrarian, bc I think he’s a bit of a contrarian, but idk. I’ve had nice conversations with him, too, and seen him having them with other people.
Thanks you are also very nice. If i seem contrarian it’s mostly because like a lot of people i don’t fell as strong a pull to comment on things i agree with. I don’t do it on purpose or anything it’s just how it turns out.
Another interesting thing I realized is that Dorothy is the one who has been trying to pump the brakes repeatedly, who has said they can’t because they have boyfriends and that they need to talk to their boyfriends. Joyce meanwhile keeps tempting her being like “wanna go do laundry?” “Wanna kiss more?” “Wanna sleep over?” Dorothy keeps trying to do the right thing and Joyce keeps being the devil on her shoulder.
There’s a monstrous level of horny behind a recently religiously decoupled young adult.
Some of my childhood friends were pastor’s kids, went to church religiously while I was their ‘weird agnostic friend’. Fast forward to our early 20’s and the horny was heavy for them. More power to them but the some of the rest of us couldn’t keep up with the social horny energy.
Is atheists having no morals a… stereotype…?? It’s like, a lie that christians push, but that feels like it carries a different connotation than the term stereotype.
It’s an idea some Christians push, mainly based on “well if you have no Godly judgement/no belief in heaven, what keeps you from committing sins on the daily?!” because some of them (particularly the angry Southern variety I’m acquainted with) believe that the only reason someone would be good is if they fear burning in hell. Ergo, you don’t believe in Hell? Then you’re not afraid of going to hell and thus probably sin all the time!! It’s silly.
Also just read where you agreed it’s a lie they push lmao sorry. I’m not sure if it counts as a stereotype but it’s definitely a firmly held belief I’d say.
It’s kind of a huge self-report on their part, right? “If I weren’t afraid of eternal punishment from an almighty being, I’d never behave myself or be kind”, because of course even if they don’t want it to, that standard has to apply to them as well. Once somebody parrots the “atheism = no morals” thing, it’s time to start avoiding them for your own safety, because they’ve just admitted they’re dangerous to be around.
There absolutely can be, but Joyce at her most ignorant is a great example of why it’s not universal. I think Joyce, as an atheist now, would say that she misascribed her own moral compass as being given to her by God, rather than her own inherent decency. Which matches with my life experience- I’ve known a few people who probably believe something like that, but were nonetheless not in any way shape or form “dangerous” in the sense of “this person is a sociopath who would run me over for a nickel if they weren’t agraid of eternal damnation”- they could be casually bigoted and ignorant- reason enough to avoid them, but I never got the impression they were attack dogs and the leash was their religion. They were ignorant people who misascribed their personal morals to a nonexistent deity.
I will certainly admit that my privileged status makes interacting with these folks a lot less fraught.
But I guess my point is that while they certainly can be monsters, they’re not holding back from being serial killers because they think God will punish them for it. They just ascribe the general “I don’t want to be a serial killer” feeling most folks have to God.
I’m not sure what it’s like in other countries, but in the US there are definitely a lot of Christians who seem to believe that atheists have no morals because we don’t believe in their god and their ideas of afterlife. That plus the association of atheism with communism during the Cold War has caused a lot of people to think negatively about atheists in the US for a long time.
I… very much doubt that second thing is the intended messaging. Also, of course, the comic has like 10 bi characters of varying prominence, and none of them have cheated.
(Dina (in addition to things she said, she was attracted to Walky in the Walkyverse), Jennifer, Ruth, Danny, Asher, Malaya, Booster, Robin, Jocelyne, Marcie (Patreon bonus strip shows her going off with a male friend to mess around, but also she and Sierra and Mandy and Grace were all bi in the Walkyverse)…
…and there’s still characters we don’t know about for sure, like Alice (probably bi!) and Walky (keeps saying Questionable things, seemed kinda into Asher), Charlie and Tony (too little data).
Oh, and Mike. Who despite being awful, was only ever cheating-adjacent, and never cheated on anyone he was in a relationship with.
Actually Asher like, broadest definition cheated and then immediately told Billie and ended things (she did not gaf), and while Ruth hasn’t like cheated cheated, she’s more or less openly said that she would in a heartbeat with Billie. Jason also would not be hurt by this lol. Bro is the definition of coasting.
And Mike did not cheat on anyone, but he broke up many happy marriages by seducing people’s mothers for a nickel and thus must be counted as a Problem Bi /j.
[Not disagreeing with the broader sentiment of your comment, just nitpicking tiny details.]
Hah, I’ll gently disagree with the first two. The third one made me laugh.
So here are my nits for your nits 🙂 Meant entirely in good fun!
1. Asher did come the closest, before this storyline, of our bi characters: but he resisted acting on his attraction to Ethan until he had very good reason to think he and Jennifer were broken up. Close, but not quite there! Unless I’m misremembering something, which is totally possible.
2. But Ruth definitely didn’t say she would cheat on Jason. Jennifer said “you’d drop your dumb boyfriend in a heartbeat if I said I wanted to get back together,” and Ruth agreed. Being willing to dump someone isn’t the same thing as being willing to cheat on them…… as Joyce and Dorothy are currently demonstrating in reverse orz
Also maybe I should “honorable mention” Jennifer and Alice? The comic hasn’t actually said this, but given that Jennifer thinks you’re allowed to makeout with and “bang, like once” your best friend while still being “regular best friends”, it’s possible she and Alice did as much while one or both of them had boyfriends.
I kind of doubt it was the plan before, although Willis might be retrofitting it into Jennifer and Alice’s past now in order to give them a slightly different perspective on what Joyce and Dorothy are doing.
Honestly we moved past “ridiculous” and into “farce” a week ago, and we’re rapidly approaching “terminally boring”.
Yes, yes, these two idiots can’t resist their new blooming love. I thought if sickos were going to win we’d at least get “mess”, not “interminable building up to mess that is not here yet”.
Just put the four of them together. I’m not entirely sure about a Joe/Walky pairing but make it Joe/Joyce/Dorothy/Walky in that bed and everyone will be happy. I’d be sad to see Joe and Joyce break up.
Ah, the classic fuck mountain approach of solving relationship complications. In my own experience, they sure do resolve at least some problems! The fact that additional problems arise is outside the scope of fuck mountain.
On odd days, Joyce sleeps with Joe, Dorothy sleeps with Walky and Amazigirl goes on patrol. On even days, Amber sleeps with Walky, Dorothy sleeps with Joyce and Joe gets to watch.
I’ve read this comic every day for years. It played a big part in helping me come to terms with being queer and bi, and I’m really grateful for that. That’s why I want to be clear: this isn’t a dealbreaker for me. I’m not rage quitting the comic or saying the characters are bad. I love these characters. But the Joyce and Dorothy pairing just doesn’t sit right with me.
It feels like it plays into the old trope that close female friendships must eventually turn romantic, and while I do think Joyce might be figuring out her feelings, including her attraction to Sal, this still feels sudden and narratively off. The sliding timeline makes it more jarring; for us, this has been years of build-up with Joyce and Joe, Dorothy’s stress, and their separate arcs. Then suddenly, one protest and we jump to romance? It doesn’t feel earned.
I’m also worried this sets up a lot of unnecessary pain, especially for characters like Becky and Dina, who are one of the healthiest and happiest couples in the comic. I love that relationship, and the idea of it being hurt as fallout from this just sucks. I know drama is part of the story, but this came at a time in my life where I’m low and kind of needed some goodness to hold onto in the narrative.
I’m not against queer representation. This comic’s rep means the world to me. I just don’t think this specific pairing was the right call, not because it’s queer, but because it feels like a trope, not a payoff. And that’s been a bit of a gut punch.
If you love this pairing, that’s totally valid. There is narrative build-up to support it. But I’m speaking from my gut, and it just didn’t work for me. I also hesitated to even say this because, quite frankly, commenters here can be ruthless. I often feel like there’s very little room for sympathy if your take doesn’t align, and people are quick to rip you apart for being “wrong.” But I wanted to say it anyway because I care.
I’d argue that it isn’t playing into the trope that close female friendships eventually turn romantic specifically because we have examples of that not happening. Tons of them, even. I’d say Joyce and Dorothy (and maybe Alice and Billie since they had a situationship going on) are the only examples of female friendship becoming romance in this comic.
Other female-female friendships include: Becky and Joyce, Becky and Dorothy, Joyce and Sarah, Joyce and Billie, Amber and Dina, Amber and Dorothy, Sal and Marcie, Dina and Charlie have the makings for a good friendship as well. Some of these friendships (like Becky and Joyce, Marcie and Sal) include one party crushing on the other and those feelings not being reciprocated and the friendship being maintained.
I would argue that Alice and Billie were *never actually platonic* in the first place. Her first appearance pretty explicitly indicated their history was romantic/sexual, as much as Billie was in denial about it.
Agreed, and similarly Becky and Dina went from meeting for the first time to their first kiss to agreeing to date, like, a couple days later. They moved QUICK.
Yeah, to some extend all romance starts with friendship. How long the friendship lasted before it started getting romantic is critical to whether it is an instance of the trope
Also agreed regarding Alice and Billie, they definitely have their own stuff going on. Even now their rekindled re-friendship could likely turn into romance.
I get where you’re coming from, and I don’t think Willis is intentionally pushing a trope. But for me, the Joyce and Dorothy pairing just doesn’t feel narratively earned. It feels sudden and more like it’s echoing a broader media pattern—where close female friendships often turn romantic, even if that doesn’t happen as often with male friendships.
I’m not against the pairing existing, but the shift feels more like a trope playing out than a natural progression of their arc. That’s why it’s hitting weird for some of us.
When you say it’s a broad media pattern can you give some examples to help me understand what media you’re going off of? Otherwise, I would just have to say that in the case of Dorothy and Joyce, it’s clear that their level of closeness is meant to be related to their feelings for each other. Much like when a man and a woman are friends, are shown to be very close, and then eventually start dating.
.It’s a fair question. The “close female friendship becomes romantic” pattern has been discussed in media criticism for years. B*t** Media’s article “Not Just Gal Pals” (2015) talks about how queer female intimacy is often reframed as romance, while male friendships stay platonic. It’s not that these stories are bad—but when it happens often, it starts to feel like women’s closeness only matters if it turns romantic. Similarly, there’s also a tired trope where close male-female friendships must lead to dating, which isn’t always the case in real life either.
Also here some other sources i previously posted
The Atlantic (“Why Is Platonic Intimacy So Rare in TV and Film?”), and The Mary Sue (“The Loss of Female Friendship in Popular Media”)
People keep coming at me like I made this up, but I didn’t. This pattern has been discussed in media criticism for years. I’m not pulling it out of nowhere. The fact is, representation in media has advanced enough that this kind of trope is worth talking about. It’s not about opposing progress. It’s about recognizing patterns that deserve thoughtful critique.
also these aren’t examples of this happening in media. these are examples of articles about the supposed phenomenon. you haven’t named a single show, movie, or anything where this actually happened. how widespread a trope can it be if the only instance you can name is the one that just happened?
The site/magazine that published the first article shut down a few years ago, so that explains not being able to find it (maybe via wayback machine?). I don’t know about the other ones.
i was reading this on the train and i was like “well, when i get back to a desktop, i can at least find these articles and go through the examples listed in those”
but not only could i not find the articles, i couldn’t find anywhere else mentioning those article titles. you would think someone would’ve at least mentioned them in a tumblr or twitter post or something, but google serves me only a single result for these titles, or meaningful portions of them, in quotes
Wow The Atlantic? Surely a publication that will have nuanced takes on queer people. Definitely not the place that keeps Jesse Singal and his crusade against trans people going.
Because it’s weird that you have exact article and publication titles for stuff that definitely doesn’t exist.
The Mary Sue in particular — if you search for “female platonic” — has a lot of articles about liking complicated female friendships (none of which complain or even talk about them becoming romantic), and a few articles on queerbaiting. Nothing that comes even close to your article’s topic or name.
But ChatGPT, programmed to never say “sorry that doesn’t exist” when it could just make up some plausible sounding citations, would absolutely claim otherwise.
Asking for examples isn’t acting like you made it up or coming for you. It’s being confused because whoever asked doesn’t have any examples they can point to and if you’re this fed up with it, they assume you have several you can pull out. They’re just asking for more info, not trying to be aggressive with you.
That said – Having a couple situations where a female friendship turns romantic in a story where there are dozens of close female friendships is not “pushing a trope” imo, it’s just “also representing that very real possibility” which is great! Because friends-to-lovers is a real thing that represents real people and they’re allowed to see themselves in a comic too.
Also let me clarify: my suspicion that it was coming from ChatGPT wasn’t an accusation either, I know plenty of smart folks who mistakenly thought it was good at finding citations.
Also, it IS important to point out when citations/sources aren’t correct. Otherwise people who aren’t inclined to double-check might believe the sources are true, and that’s not fair to them either.
I wonder if men friendships don’t turn romantic that often because unfortunately queer men still aren’t as accepted in mainstream media as queer women.
I think this is exactly why, whereas for women, there is something of an expectation that women are allowed to be close enough to cuddle without it being necessarily gay. I can’t begin to tell you how many times my guy friend kept asking me if I had kissed my other roommates yet just because we were all women. I was like “dude, they all have boyfriends, we’re not gonna kiss”.
.In response to DoopyBoops’ list of platonic friendships: yes, there are close female friendships in the comic that remain platonic. But Joyce and Dorothy’s stands out because it is by far the most prominent. They’ve had the most screen time, the most emotional investment, and the most narrative focus. That’s why, when their dynamic suddenly shifts to romantic, it feels more jarring and tropey—even if that wasn’t the intention. This isn’t about denying queerness. It’s about how this particular shift lands after years of buildup and reader expectation.
It’s my understanding, and I’m fully prepared to be corrected, that the first several years of Dorothy & Joyce’s relationship was not intended to be setup for their romantic arc. But the author enjoyed their dynamic, and as it got more and more prominent, it started getting mined for jokes because, after all, this is a comedy webcomic.
And at some point they felt that if Dorothy and Joyce didn’t become romantically intertwined at some point, all of those jokes and the closeness of the two would be queerbaiting.
That absolutely wasn’t the only factor in the author deciding to make this relationship happen. But I do think it’s one worth mentioning.
This is exactly correct. They didn’t even mean Joyce to be bi until sometime after 2015, though they acknowledge that many of their attempts to have Joyce clarify that she’s straight were accidentally phrased in really queer ways that just made her look more bi.
So it’s both been there the whole time and was not planned for the first 5 ish years of the comic’s run!
Oh I missed the very last thing you said. That, I dont agree with. Unless I’ve missed it, they’ve never said anything about having wanted to keep it platonic forever but being worried audiences would consider it queerbaiting.
By the time of the “queerbaiting” strip, they’d already decided to make it romantic and wanted to reassure readers with a wink, especially because their original plan had it another 5 years in the future from now.
That’s why I said that it was just one factor, and I highly doubt it was the most important one. But I think they might have felt that especially the jokes people like Walky made about them would come across as a *lot* more meanspirited if they didn’t decide to make them retroactively foreshadowing- if that makes sense?
Oh, gosh, it’s a very reasonable inference, I think? Especially about Walky’s comments becoming retroactively meaner than intended!
But I’d already replied to you with “this is exactly correct” 😆 and then talked about things Willis HAS said explicitly, so not replying to correct myself felt like accidentally implying they’d also expressly said that other thing, you know? And we’ve got enough folks hearing a through-the-grapevine version of Willis’s words so far this week, I didn’t want to contribute to it.
Doopyboop is responding to UrsulaDavina, who did mention female friendship specifically. I’m also not sure fandom is really relevant when talking about tropes in media – I tend to think of that as things the writer can employ (on purpose or playing into by accident).
Joyce stopped resonating for me for a little while. She’s starting to make sense again, but it’s still like she’s been through a timeskip nobody else has. I’m not really invested in her part of the story because of that. Maybe after Joyce and Dorothy break up, and whatever follows, they might be a better match.
Alice’s introduction seemed a little rushed too. Maybe Joyce’s role in that wouldn’t have worked with what’s coming for her.
I’m sorry… the “old trope that every close female relationship becomes romantic.” what.
Like, major gay main characters in media is like, a relativley groundbreaking new thing. Like, not to say it has never happened in the past but the idea of it being a “tired trope” is insane. It’s certainly not a thing that is absurdly common, and even if it had become so (it hasnt) it would be categorically impossible for it to become old.
Unless this is like, some hyper-niche specific thing of like “oh among queer online circles people like to see two girls that like each other and talk about what if they were gay” in which case like. Yeah, no duh. That’s how fans interact with media, by projecting themself onto it, its certainly not a trope.
Sorry if this comes across as perhaps too aggressive, but as someone who grew up watching media only barely start to include sympathetic gay characters. (dumbing of age actually being one of the things that did it at the time!) it feels really bizzarre to see a… backlash against the “trope” of… lesbians being in relationships in a story??
I get where you’re coming from, and I agree that queer repespecially for lesbians is still really important. As someone who’s bi, this comic helped me come to terms with my own identity.
The concern isn’t about queer characters being in relationships. It’s about a pattern in media where close female friendships often get reframed as romantic, while male ones usually stay platonic. That trend can be frustrating, and in this case, the shift from Joyce and Joe to Dorothy just didn’t feel earned to me. JMO It’s not about rejecting the pairing because it’s queer it just didn’t land emotionally from a narrative perspective.
.I know you’re being facetious, but I was trying to make a sincere point about how the story handles emotional arcs and representation. I’ve had a really rough few months, and this storyline hit me hard—especially with the cheating aspect, since I’ve been cheated on before. I’m glad you’re able to joke, but for me, this wasn’t about shipping or snark. I was speaking honestly, and it’s frustrating to have that dismissed
Josh, this isn’t nitpicking. Ursula claimed there was a widespread “tired trope” of female friendships turning romantic, people asked politely for examples, and they gave us a list of articles that don’t exist, allegedly talking about the prevalence of the trope, while still providing no examples of it happening in any media.
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry to hear this is opening wounds for you. I would genuinely suggest you take a break, from the comments if not from the comic itself, but also I’ve definitely heard a lot of people say that storylines they found uncomfortable were a lot easy to read a year later, once they could get through it all at once.
The daily drip-feed makes something we’re not enjoying worse. And the next few storyline titles (visible in the Archive dropdown menu) sound like it’s going to keep being on this topic for a while yet.
The comic will still be here in a few months, if you want to come back to it.
What pattern though? Seriously, multiple people asked that and you still didn’t give any actual examples. Probably because there isn’t that many as as gay relationships in media are, in fact, quite niche and not common at all!
The most you can say is that fans will interpret any female/female friendship as romantic. But not only some fans will interpret any friendship pairing as romantic, male/male ships are overwhelmingly more common in fandom spaces.
A trend I personally find much more frustrating is the one where whenever a queer pairing form later into a work existences hordes of people will come out of the wood work to complain saying it is sudden, unrealistic, ooc or whatever. This happen regardless of if the pairing is really sudden (which is, frankly, not actually a problem) or if it have been built on for a long time. And it is very much happening right now as many people jump to complain about a relationship that have actively being worked on for at least half the duration of the comic, not to mention the accidental subtext present from the very start.
On the other hand there are a host of very close friendships between men that never become romantic
Sherlock+Watson
Bucky+Steve
Frodo+Sam
The only one I can think of is maybe Crowley + Aziraphale
I suspect the reasons for this are:
1. Traditional masculinity norms discourage homosexuality, whereas WLW relationships are fetishized.
2. Traditional masculinity encourages men to hide their emotions, and limit emotional connection, which makes it difficult for friendships to become more intimate. Gender norms are more permissive of women expressing emotions of love and care.
Now compare these 4 examples with other pairs of female friends across media that did, in fact, remain friends. Or contrast with many male/female friend pairs that turn romantic at last minute with no real buildup or pushback from the audience.
That is why I say it is not a real trend. It is a thing that happens sometimes, but not often enough for the massive backlash that accompanies it literally every time.
Could you give me some examples of male friendships that become romantic? Because that seems like the real counterpoint.
I already said there are way too few queer relationships in general, but when it comes to someone realizing they love their same sex friend it is almost exclusively women.
Why would male friendships be coming romantic be a counterpoint? At no point did anyone claim that was common. Someone claimed shipping them was more common than shipping female friendships.
I can’t think one out of the top of my head and I do think that is a problem, I wish that was a thing that happened (most often they show runners run to the line and then say “no homo” at the end). This is, however, not a counter to what I was talking about.
It was said that there is a “trend” o female friendship turning romantic, with the implication the trend is common enough to be a problem, as if you couldn’t find enough shows of regular female/female friendships, and it always turns romantic. My point is that such a trend doesn’t exist and complaining about it is just part of the actual real trend of people trying to find excuses to invalidate the queer relationships that actually form.
1. I think you mean Adora and Catra? I didn’t watch She-Ra, but I’m pretty sure that was her name.
2. Xena and Gabrielle doesn’t belong on this list. Heavy queer subtext for years in the 1990s, but it was never canon until the 2019 continuation comic book. Twenty-four years after the 2001 season finale left them still unconfirmed.
3. Harley-Quinn and Poison Ivy. Really. You think they ever had a platonic friendship? Because the 1997 Batgirl Adventures comic had Harley tell Batgirl that Ivy gave her a special vaccine for Ivy’s poisons so that they can “play” all they want and she’ll never get sick. Batgirl splutters and stumbles through asking Harley if she and Ivy are “like that”, and when Harley understands the question, her response is, “Oh! Like everyone says about you and Supergirl?”
They’re then both distracted and don’t come back to the conversation, allowing some plausible deniability for readers who don’t like the idea and editors who might not have been completely sold on it, but to claim this was a “platonic friendship that eventually turned to romance” is ridiculous, when the two characters had barely interacted before this point, and the 1995 comic where they team up to use special lipstick to make Bruce Wayne follow their commands also had some notable subtext.
3. Finally, Korrasami. I would be more inclined to give this one to you, except that the two girls weren’t even friends until the writers had already started liking the idea of them as a couple, and their trajectory was less “friends to lovers” than it is “romantic rivals (enemies) to friends to lovers”.
So. Like. You’ve got one, maybe two (again, didn’t watch She-Ra) arguable example of the thing you’re complaining about.
But even if all your examples were good ones, that’s two in the 90s, one in the 2010s, one in 2020.
Please tell me you understand that this isn’t a pattern, much less a tired trope.
I would argue that Korrasami counts because they actually did become friends in season 1. It was part of the subversion of the “boy friend seductress” trope, Korra found Asami to be much more fun to hang around than she expected. It was part of the reason I shipped the 2 way back when (though I think Korra x Bolin might be a better pairing if we consider season 1 in isolation).
Season 2 derailed that by terrible Asami (and Mako) writing, but I do think it is fair to say they were a friendship that turn romantic, and a friendship that was initially not intended to turn romantic at that.
(regardless it is clearly not part of a tired trope, I just wanted an excuse to talk Korassami)
That’s fair! I don’t feel like they had a particularly strong friendship until Season 3, when Korra started writing just Asami letters. But, of course, YMMV. 🙂
It was a shame Asami wasn’t more involved in season 3, which probably featured the best writing the show had, but in season 4, their relationship was so strong that even I, a noted resident of Thicko Corner, noticed how close the two were getting lmao.
People talk about it now like it was cowardly or not enough, and most of them are just too young to realize how precious and rare it was in 2014. In a kids’ show!!!!! (Okay, a show for young teens, but still.)
Now we’ve had Steven Universe and Adventure Time and She-Rah, so it starts to feel more typical, but good grief.
The Legend of Korra is messy, and overall not as strong as its predecessor, but it will always have SUCH a place in my little queer heart. Would that such things had existed when I was a kid, at least in the American media landscape. Instead, it was almost all stuff like “did you know in the Japanese version of Sailor Moon, Zoicite’s a guy? Did you hear about Haruka and Michiru (who hadn’t appeared in the English version and wouldn’t for many more years while DiC tried to avoid dubbing more than the first two seasons)?”
It was a little more common in dramas aimed at older audiences. Star Trek made many notable attempts at explicitly acknowledging queerness, sometimes okay (like Dara’s child, Lal, choosing their own gender), sometimes very clumsily! Johnathan Frakes in particular was very on-board for the idea of Riker being bisexual, and the awkward episode with the alien planet where everyone’s forced to be agender would certainly have been a bit less muddled in its intended messaging if the studio executives had been willing to have the actor of the alien Riker falls in love with be a man, like Frakes wanted.
Trills afforded more of an opportunity, and eventually Jadzia’s character did kiss another woman on screen as part of a doomed love affair with another Trill, and then there’s all the mess with the Mirror Universe and its unfortunate Depraved Bisexual tropage.
Meanwhile, Babylon 5, which gave us about 1.5 years of nice Lady Tension before Andrea Thompson tragically got a better offer and left the show, but thankfully JMS opted to pull the rip cord first, so that we got a bit of a rushed escalation and a canonization of Ivanova’s bisexuality before Talia vanished forever.
(A lot of issues to take with this one! But the intent means everything to me. So does the fact that JMS hoped Andrea would come back and had a better ending in mind tor Talia’s character.)
Xena and Gabrielle were of course very very shippable, and they even kissed, though IIRC there was magic or possession or some other such excuse.
And then there was Willow on Buffy, and I know, Joss Whedon sucks, he’s not getting flowers here, but gaaaawd did Willow mean so much to me.
There’s a couple more in this list that I missed, due to not watching ER or Melrose Place, but you can tell the pickings are slim, because Samantha from Sex and the City and an evil bisexual from Oz made this list of 13 characters “that gave us hope”.
Yeah, Korasami seems very now, when we have Steven Universe, Owl House and what not. But back then it was just not done, specially in kids media, specially when the series protagonist. I remember how surprised I was when I heard. I had dropped the series season 2 because it wasn’t very good, and wasn’t in a hurry to come back even when I heard 3 was better. But learning Korassami was canon made something I needed to check out (nice thing seasons 3 and 4 are good too!)
A comparable feeling was hearing Gundam had a female protagonist with a female love interest. Like, that was much more recent, 2022, but still doesn’t seem something that is allowed to happen with a major traditional franchise. It makes worth checking out for that alone (helps the series is good too!)
Ugh, my math on #2 is blatantly wrong! The article talking about it said 24 years but they obviously meant 24 years from the start of the TV show in the 90s, not 24 years after its season finale.
I would suspect that Odo is most likely referring to the recent animated series. I only watched a little of the first part, so I don’t know exactly how their dynamic played out- that is, how sexually charged their relationship was- but I *do* know that later on in the series, Ivy basically played Joyce to Harley’s Dorothy & Kite-Man’s Joe.
Well, you can’t know what you don’t know. 🙂 But yeah! Harley/Ivy is actually one of the older Canonical Queer Relationships.
I haven’t seen the cartoon either (I’ve heard mixed things, especially around handling Harley’s Jewishness), but given the characters’ history, I imagine the writers were less trying to write “a friendship that suddenly becomes romantic” than “a slow-burn romance”. The difference being whether the “friendship” stage was ever supposed to be completely platonic or not.
That would certainly be a reasonable interpretation of their arc, I’m not in a position to say either way.
But if they *were* only talking about the show, the interpretation of comic Harley & Ivy seems to me to be of background importance to how someone who only watched the show would interpret their characters. As a parallel, I *hated* Malaya in Shortpacked, but here in DoA they’re used much better and I don’t hold their Shortpacked incarnation against them.
But also your points on the TV show are valid, and I could’ve brought up the comic book history without acknowledging that a cartoon I haven’t seen could totally have made them more of a “platonic friends to lovers” situation.
EVEN IF I STILL WANTED TO BRING UP Harley and Ivy’s comic book history, like as a neutral point of interest, let’s say, I could have done it without FAILING TO acknowledge that a recent cartoon I haven’t seen could’ve done things differently enough to make it a valid example 😛
I have to admit that at this point in the evolution/intersection of popular culture, corporate ownership and fandom, I sometimes find it difficult to untangle what is “real” and what is not. That said, I assure you that in fanfic, all of those male relationships (and more!) have definitely been written as romantic and/or sexual. There is considerable desire, if not a need, for such content.
I would point that all your female exampled come from, at earliest, the 1990s, while your male examples are from, at latest, the 1940s, and in the case of Sherlock and Watson, the 19th century. I think that’s a much more likely explanation for the discrepancy than the gender of the characters.
Dorothy is “safe” to tell. She’s already sharing in Joyce’s sense of wrongdoing, so Joyce doesn’t feel like she’ll judge her, and she doesn’t have Joe’s trauma about his dad’s infidelity, so she isn’t as terrified of compounding that trauma.
Lessee. Joyce, overburdened by the stress of having done something wrong, is squirrely about it: Check. (See: Dingdong whiteboard bandit)
Dorothy, forced to have a difficult interpersonal interaction, is trying to Good Studier her way out of it (See: Her whole like, life).
Aaaand sarah has a BF she might stay over with. im polishing my opera glasses.
Oh man. I’m just like, tired, you know? Things have been tense in here.
What kind of plant do you think you are? I think I might be like, a dandelion. Rich people would want me to get off their lawn, but I’m more interesting than you expect once you get to know me.
Dandelions are excellent! People are just mad because they “spoil” lawns.
I am Bad with plants, so my impulse is to pick a succulent, because they’re about all I think I could take care of. (It doesn’t help that I’ve always had cats.)
I hate this. I thought Joyce and Dorothy were better than this. The first kiss I can excuse because it was heat of the moment but now this is intentional cheating.
This isn’t the first time. When Joyce and Dorothy went to the laundry room before going to the protest, they were intending to cheat then too. And they only got stopped because a bunch of other students were already there doing laundry at the time.
That’s my issue. I would have been fine with Joyce and Dorothy getting together without the cheating, either because they broke up with their respective partners, or because they had an honest conversation and their partners were open to polyamory (less likely because this would be narratively boring)…
But I can’t find it cute when it is people acting so selfishly, and whenever it is framed as “cute” either in the strip or by other people I get the icks.
Its like how if Amber stabbing Sal were framed as “cool”. My reaction would be “no, its not cool. That is another person you are hurting” and the same applies to this plotline.
It just doesn’t feel like it tracks with either of them as they currently are. A spur-of-the-moment kiss in a moment of high intensity makes more sense than this strip where they’re basically saying “eh, fuck it, we tried” and going off to very consciously do even more intimate stuff.
Like, Joyce giving Joe a BJ yesterday instead of coming (lol) clean made sense for her character. Today’s choices just feel gross and kind of callous on both their parts.
Aww. Cheating makes me sad. My guess is that Willis has written a whole long arc about these ladies having to deal with the fallout. As we’ve seen, their friends aren’t cool with infidelity.
Also I wanna give my condolences to the commenters who get painful flashbacks from this storyline. Your pain is very real and I see you.
I think I am foreseeing Joe’s permanent departure from the comic. He had been looking to transfer to a college with a culinary program didn’t he? Seems like the perfect way to make a new start away from both a Joyce who cheated on him and his own past mistakes.
This is a thought I’ve had as well. “Everything I want is here?” Well “everything I want” is about to break your heart, big guy. I wouldn’t stick around after that myself.
I can definitely see the narrative beats forming for that. Technically Joe and Joyce have only been dating a week, but Joe is very emotionally invested, a large part of that being due to him trying to prove himself worthy of love.
But we’ve been seeing various women coming in and out of the story line reminding Joe they remember his list and his reputation, and even after the time skip it keeps regularly happening. If he decided to transfer to another school in-between semesters, that would make a lot of sense for his mental health.
I don’t think he has, no. That same strip he said he couldn’t transfer because everything he loves was here. The implication was very much he only considered a culinary program because of Joyce in the first place, so it is unlikely he was actually planning to transfer over it.
Now, it is possible that after the break up he will reflect and conclude that cooking is his passion regardless of Joyce. That could be cool and would tie with a potential theme of trying to improve as a person for himself instead of for someone else. But, from the information we have now, I see no reason to think a transfer is in the cards now.
Yeah, way you lay it out, I can see it happening. I’d be kinda bummed if it did though. I’ve come to really enjoy seeing Joe’s progress towards realizing “commitment does not have to be scary” as well as the deeper understanding that he is neither responsible for, nor doomed to repeat the actions of his father.
Something tells me Dorothy’s never going to get a clean moment for the perfect speech. At best she’ll blank when the time suddenly comes and have to improvise less eloquently than she wanted; at worst, Walky’s gonna find out and break up with her first before she gets the chance to clear her conscience with the neat, pre-planned checklist, and she’ll have to deal with the consequences of having waited too long.
Which makes the latter seem fairly likely, actually. She’d feel absolutely terrible.
I get what you mean, and I kinda agree. Walky has had a lot of nonsense thrown his way, especially from his parents (what was his mom’s name, Linda?) yet he reacts to everything with a shrug and a “c’est la vie” kinda vibe. Sometimes reacting with complete chill isn’t the healthiest response.
It’s apparently much worse on Reddit! So much worse that Maggie went from “ooooof, they need to come clean soon and not cross too many lines” to “PULL THE TRIGGER” specifically to spite the contingent of weird dudebros for whom Joyce was their pure waifu being ruined.
Agreed, definitely some of those sentiments coming out more since actual confirmation that Joyce isn’t straight. She’s like, 18? When I was 18 I was tentatively identifying as bi-curious even while dating my first girlfriend. I am very much not ‘just bi-curious’ anymore, lmao
When I was 18 I was doing my best to NOT have the big trans feels. And push it deep deep deep down. So what if I constantly complain about men’s fashion choices being basic, and there being no real options, and asking why women get a bunch of different options. Don’t look to hard into it hahahahaha.
Yeah anyway I’mma lady these days. And that’s my point (and your point) is that people figure out more and more about themselves as they are given more ability to do so.
Oh big agree on that front when it comes to gender. When I was 18 I still identified as my birth gender and never really thought about it, whereas nowadays I’ve been experimenting with they/them pronouns and feel really good about it! Congrats on your own journey with gender and I hope it’s only up from here!
Life is a process and especially since Joyce was literally raised in bible belt hell where being gay and trans were NOT choices to be chosen, she’s gonna be learning a lot about herself now that she’s away from that.
I don’t care if someone is straight or gay or queer or whatever. IMHO, you fall in love with a person’s character, not their gender. But I might be alone in that. In any case, I think Joe is good for Joyce, but I don’t like her behaviour towards him. And I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy are good sexual partners for each other, they’re just both very wound?winded? up and are falling back to the one stable friendship they’ve ever had. As for Walky, he’ll probably end up on Garbage Roof again, which would be very sad for him.
Part of my confusion about this whole arc was that, back when Becky kissed Joyce as part of her coming out, I could swear that Willis said something along the lines of “sorry folks, Joyce is extremely straight, this will never happen.”
Plus I’m pretty sure when Becky panics and runs away the alt text said something like “oh god Becky come back I’m so sorry, I’ll make Joyce not straight if it makes you happy” which I read as an extension of that same fact: the author of the comic had declared a character’s sexuality quite explicitly! It felt like it was set in stone, in a way.
Of course, people (including Willis) change, and it’s fine for Joyce’s sexuality to do the same. But it *was* extra jarring to me because Joyce was one of the few people that we had Word Of God about her sexuality…even if it was long ago.
“I’ll make Joyce gay” is what he said, not “I’ll make Joyce not straight”.
Willis never made any statement either way regarding her straightness, and has also been pretty dismissive of people trying to use “but I thought you said sexuality was consistent between universes” against characters like Danny coming out as bi.
Willis literally only said sexuality was consistent because they got an absolute avalanche of people asking if Ethan was “still gay” in DoA.
They’ve never made any promise that any of their previously presumed straight characters would still be straight, they’ve only ever said stuff like, “yes, Danny is retroactively bi in the Walkyverse too.”
Besides, Walkyverse Joyce wasn’t straight either, she was just in deep denial about what Anti-Joyce’s interest in women meant about her.
There’s even one comment where someone says “and she IS straight… mostly” which I cracked up at. Baby, this girl is not straight. People are holding onto “maybe it’s ONLY for Dorothy” or “Maybe she’s just into women romantically but she still needs a penis in her life” like bisexual women don’t exist… it’s honestly kinda sad to watch it happen.
Mostly annoying though. No one should be digging their fingernails in against Joyce being into women while she’s actively being into a woman, it’s not a good look.
That one in particular, oof. “I’m mostly straight” is only something you can really say about yourself, and even then you’re going to sound really homophobic unless there’s a halfway decent reason.
(I used to say it, right after my partner transitioned to enby and it was pointed out to me by several queer friends that this made me some kind of queer. Of late I’ve more or less decided that I just like what I like as no labels seem to really fit.)
It’s apparently much worse on Reddit (I assume)! So much worse that Maggie went from “ooooof, they need to come clean soon and not cross too many lines” to “PULL THE TRIGGER” specifically to spite the contingent of weird dudebros for whom Joyce was their pure waifu being ruined.
Welp we’ve crossed the line from this is making me anxious to I’m a happy camper. I had the “Oh, we’re CHEATING cheating” thought and then I was on board again. I honestly could not tell you why this is so.
Is this what you really want, Joyce? An overbearing maternal vulture who writes your breakup speeches for you? At least Joe sees you as an adult with value, not a project to be completed.
That’s been their dynamic at least since after the kidnapping. It’s wrapped up in Dorothy’s trauma response / PTSD after the surprise Faz freed Blaine and her control of the situation started to unravel. (Considering her nightmares, and likening Joyce walking away with Joe to the van driving away.)
Okay I admit I initially read Dorothy as writing speeches for Joyce, because it would mirror the “this is how they are when they’re with her” scene we had with Joe a couple days ago.
I still stand by my general point that Dorothy mommies Joyce while Joe helps her build herself up.
“Just promise me you’ll brush your teeth and gargle three gallons of mouthwash before you put your mouth on my downstairs fancy place so I don’t get any Joe cooties!”
Ok now that this very long and controversial arc is essentially almost over i might as well share my take on #cheatgate. Comments have trending very mixed-to-negative for a hot minute (some valid, some not, it’s not my prerogative to say who’s right or wrong and more importantly I don’t care!* ) and I have my own very serious beefs w/. this storyline, but I wanted to go against the grain and say that this cheating shit rules. It fucking rules**. I love getting invested into a fictional relationship and having it end with ugly breakups and heartbreak. I’ve been excited for the inevitable pairing of Dorothy and Joyce, and I’ve been excited for the equally inevitable breakup of Joe and Joyce***, but I never ONCE thought both would happen at the same time via an insane spur of the moment affair of passion. I thought I had the next few major storylines roughly figured out and I’m adoring the absolute fucking curveball this has been.
I’m genuinely excited to see Joe have to re-examine his hangups around intimacy and relationships now that he can no longer bury it under the guise of being the perfect boyfriend™️, I’m excited to see Dorothy now have to actively deal with the ramifications of her post-timeskip fugue state now that she’s figured out what her feelings for Joyce really were all along, i’m excited to see the chaotic unfurling that is Joyce going full throttle on examining her relationship to sex and sexually in ways that will hurt people she cares about, and i’m excited to see what the long term effects and consequences of all of this is going to look like.
So uh. Yeah! Thank you.
*Just wanna make it clear that if you do care about spending time in the comments talking in-depth about your feelings and predictions, that’s 100% more than fine, I just know it’s not for me! I’m at my happiest when i’m at least semi-detached from fandom and fandom spaces, and with few exceptions, that usually includes ignoring takes and comments that i disagree with and moving on instead of engaging in gentle debate.
**I also know my tolerance for characters doing horrible/messy things and being horrible/messy people is really high, and that’s not the case for everyone. If you’re not having fun with this storyline or you’re genuinely upset that a character you like is going to be hurt or you find the cheating stuff upsetting or you’re just straight up bummed out, then i’m truly sorry about that. You’re allowed to be upset and i hope this doesn’t come off as some asshole trying to prove you wrong.
*** I also wanna make it clear that even though it was never on an OTP level, I liked JoJo !! A lot !! I thought it was very cute and fun and if there’s one thing I will miss during the fallout is the very solid underlying friendship between the two, but i’ve always operated under the concept that it was going to end with them breaking up, even if I didn’t expect it to happen like this at all.
lmao, these knuckleheads. Not Joyce being squirrely/reflexively lying because she’s afraid to confront her own behavior, or Dot getting so up in her own head that she’s planning a speech rather than a conversation. Who could have foreseen that their major character flaws would influence their responses to a stressful situation of their own making.
(In b4 someone crawls up my ass about The Infidelity: yes I have been cheated on, a couple of times, and tbh I still don’t think this is that big a deal. It’s well shy of the least messy cheating scandal that occurred in my collegiate social circles, and I have personally forgiven people for doing stupider things. They’ll probably be laying awake cringing about this in a couple of years, but I don’t really think it’s permanently personality-warping.)
It’s odd, I keep hearing about how Dorothy is the morally bankrupt one, but whenever I look at these strips, it usually reads as Joyce being the bad actor for me. I’ve been seeing hesitation with Dorothy the whole way and Joyce just endlessly tempting against it. Just find it interesting how we walked away with two completely different takes.
Dorothy dictated the ”we need to talk to our boyfriends”, and her first word when Joyce returns is ”did you break up with him”. At least in the comic that decision/agreement was not said outloud. I’m left thinking Dorothy assumes that it goes without saying that Joyce left to break up with Joe to be hers alons.
Dorothy has always been very quick to take over her friends lives. Now she seems to want Dorothy as her own, and be very possessive.
But they DO need to talk to their boyfriends. And asking if Joe and Joyce broke up is important to know whether Joyce is free for a relationship yet or not.
I think, whether Dorothy expected it or not, that’s still a reasonable question when someone comes back from telling their boyfriend they cheated.
I do agree that she has an issue with taking over her friends’ problems and trying to force-solve them, I just don’t think those are particularly good examples because you’re sort of infusing them with a lot of tone that is a personal read rather than a universal one, I think.
Man, I haven’t felt contempt for protagonists like this in a while.
To be clear, while I’m not gonna hold up this chapter as my favorite anytime soon, the past few days of strips have brought it back to “DoA’s usual standard” which is pretty high. Me feeling contempt for these two is good writing.
But good lord, my expectations for their behavior were low and they just limboed right under that bar.
If you want to up the ante even more, a version I heard was “the bar is so low it was a tripping g hazard in Hell, but look at you, limbo dancing with the Devil.”
It’s poetic license until the author decides to let belief stop hanging in the middle of the air because it’d be funnier for the more realistic thing to happen.
While I’m not exactly defending their actions, I will remind everyone that Joyce and Dorothy are *college freshman.* Anyone who can say they made no bad decisions at that time is either lying or terminally dull.
I can certainly say that making THIS level of bad romantic/sexual decisions usually ended up with “hey, why are we the only two people left in our friend group and everyone else treats us like plague carriers”, at least back in my dorm in 1999-2000.
A lot of people are negative about it not because they ‘cant separate the fictional from the real’. It is because being cheated on is a very common traumatic experience. It isn’t complicated. If you were in a car crash you’d find Jennifer’s story less desirable to read about depending on how bad the crash was as a less polarizing example.
People have trigger warnings for tons of things. That isn’t my problem with it. Never been cheated on. But cheating is high up on the list of ‘people might find this squick’ writing because many people tend to be vulnerable and trusting with their partners and cheating violates that in a way that triggers a bunch of anthropologically relevant reactions in the noggin.
That’s not my actual problem with this storyline, but this whole ‘separating reality from fiction line’ comes up frequently enough in discussions about that story line and it seems unempathetic and unkind to me. You are allowed to have negative reactions to fictional storylines that cause you to relive past trauma.
My actual problem? God cheating is boring. The way people act when they avoid getting caught with something immoral is one of the most boring played out tropes in all of fiction. I’m a sitcom hater for this same reason. Snoresville central. It’s not fun. I hate having to wait for two idiots to painfully come to the conclusion to ‘actually communicate with their partners’. I hate that ‘breaking up’ is the only thing being discussed here. I hate will they won’t theys with a BURNING FUCKING PASSION and you know what? This is the SAME THING as the previous will they won’t they of this relationship but now I think they are slowly making ‘terrible people’ type decisions to the point where it’d be accurate to eventually describe them as terrible people instead. ‘Yay’.
I get that this is ‘Willis Biographical’ but sometimes your biography sucks David. It reads like a damn sitcom and you are generally ‘better than that’. Where is the hot messy poly shit and gay make outs. The bad decisions to gay make outs ratio is too damn low. I think you need other characters being extra gay just to make up for it. I didn’t click sicko in the poll just to be met with this tamed tried and tested bullshit ‘i cant break up with them’ cheating story line.
i actually have seen a bunch of people whinging about that, because i made the mistake of checking out the DOA reddit when the Jennifer/Alice reunification stuff was going on during the previous storyline. more than one piece of “oh my god how dare Joyce try and guilt Alice into forgiving Jennifer for almost killing her” sentiment on there, which was really something to behold. the amount of people who are just, unwilling to read this comic and interpret its narrative in good faith is baffling to me???
Yeah, I checked the subreddit a couple of times recently and for such a small amount of comments it is impressive how many of them seem to deliberately trying to read the comic in bad faith.
(btw, I accidentally reported your comment, sorry about that)
I’m with you about this plot getting boring. Cheating storylines so frequently fall into the same tired cliches, and it’s rare for anything the characters do to feel relatable or character-driven. They all just kinda follow the same general script until somehow it all blows up in their faces, and we have to slog through this entire song and dance until we get there. It turns a vibrant cast of characters into a bunch of generic archetypes.
This ship is quickly devolving into a garbage scow. Let’s tally up a quick sec from the last two strips alone:
Joyce suddenly being hit with guilt, gives her first round of sloppy toppy to Joe, AFTER he gifts her a blanket he hopes will help her think of being smooshed by him. In her colors no less.
Dorothy hasn’t confessed to Walky either as she can’t think up a speech that’s emotional enough? Then with Joes gift in hand and his dong still fresh on her lips/mouth, the two decide to spend the night together under said blanket.
Jeez. Joe really is just an afterthought to them. Not to mention Walky.
Dorothy writing speeches to break up with Walky is just so emblematic of some of her worst character flaws – performatively acting out the steps of contrition and empathy for his feelings, but in reality preparing to talk at him without any consideration that he might want to actually have a conversation, that he might have substantive thoughts of his own on the matter. Meanwhile she’s preparing to sleep over with Joyce, knowing full well she is not capable of keeping her hands off of her. She has always taken Walky for granted. I really want that to be addressed.
“Speeches” imply talking at someone without giving them a chance to respond. It is a flaw because I recognize it as something I used to do in order to avoid having to actually engage in difficult conversations. It is a habit I have since rectified because it’s condescending and unfair to the other person.
I’m not so sure it always has to be a flaw. For me, I sometimes practice what I am going to say beforehand so that I can get the information out as clearly and unambiguous as possible. It helps avoid wasting time trying to elaborate yourself out of a quagmire. I also sort of prep before starting a convo as a way to counteract the mild stutter I have. For me it’s less performative and more “how can I accurately convey the information that is in my head to the outside?”
By the way, good on you for breaking yourself of a bad habit. That’s never an easy thing to do, and that’s assuming a person even had the honesty and self awareness to admit there was room for improvement. Way too often folks double down, so I think it’s worth celebrating when someone actually works towards bettering themselves and resolving to be kinder to their fellow humans.
Practicing how you’re going to open a difficult conversation and how you might respond to likely points and questions is fine, that’s good, plenty of people do that and how it can help. But that’s a very different kettle of fish to practicing a speech that you can just dump on the other person and expect that to do all the work for you.
I think it’s absolutely possible that Dorothy is imagining herself giving a literal speech. I also think she might be writing more of a… choose-your-own-adventure sort of script.
Where it’s less “I’m going to talk for five minutes uninterrupted” than a lot of frantic guessing about what Walky is going to say if she says xyz, and how she should respond in case he does.
I also imagine Dorothy is currently running through how her last two breakups (Danny and Walky) went, and trying to learn from her past mistakes. Trying to come up with the perfect words that will let Walky down as gently as possible while also being sure that he knows he’s wonderful and did nothing wrong and that anyone would be lucky to have him…
For sure still trying to control something that she can’t reasonably expect to control — she needs to leave Walky room to be both mad at her and hurt — but also, like, I think anxiety and the likely undiagnosed autism are also playing a role.
Idk, I feel like the odd one out with Walky’s relationships? I absolutely want to see him self-actualize. I want to see him stop blaming himself for everything with regards to Dorothy/Amber/Lucy.
But prior to this mess, I also don’t think the girls deserve much blame for the endings of their relationships, either. (Asterisk on Amber, the physical element there was not okay.)
I think Dorothy really loved Walky, and was genuinely afraid when her grades started to suffer, and then she fumbled, repeatedly, over ending things with him, but she did all of it from a place of genuine love and heartbreak.
I think Amber at least really liked Walky, but that they were both grieving for Mike separately instead of together, and in fundamentally incompatible ways. I think shoving him was Obviously Not Okay, but if she’d just broken up with him instead of shoving him first and potentially really hurting him, I don’t think it would have been unfair. Neither of them wanted to be around the other’s form of grief, and that’s not something either of them were doing to the other.
Finally, Lucy: it’s understandable that Walky didn’t feel up to standing up to his racist parents for her, and he couldn’t make himself feel something for her that he didn’t, but also she did genuinely mishear him, and she had the right to not want to stick around with someone who couldn’t stand up to his racist parents for her.
(This is something I feel like is missing from negative Lucy analyses, the part where yes, obviously Walky’s parents’ racism hurts him, but she was a direct target of it. It’s not like Amber dumped Walky for not being able to stand up to his racist parents. Lucy had every right to decide that their relationship, such as it was, wasn’t worth the pain of having to see more of Walky’s parents, or the embarrassment of him not loving her as much as she loved him, or even just him continuing to make pained faces every time she mentioned her faith for the rest of their lives.
They didn’t break up over just one of those things, it was all of it coming to a head.)
Now, THIS time around, yes, Dorothy went to Walky for a distraction. I do think he’s well-aware of that, and that he’s honestly unlikely to be especially surprised that getting back together with him might have just been something Dorothy did in an attempt to further ignore her feelings for Joyce.
But good GRIEF do I hope Walky walks away from this feeling better about himself, with his image of Dorothy as someone better than him that he doesn’t deserve thoroughly punctured.
I think I know what you mean by her “performative contrition”. When she’s dumped Danny and Walky, he has sort of a “I’m breaking up with you for your benefit” vibe. And that kind of feels worse than just “this isn’t working for me”. All this preparing is for not letting Walky be angry or whatever else reactions he would have.
Honestly, I feel bad for Joe. Like, yes, congrats to them, but Joe doesn’t deserve this. He has grown so much as a character and is really TRYING here. And Joyce, who he is honestly it seems a little bit in love with, is going to break his heart and then twist the knife in by immediately dating his friend from high school. I know I’d be SUPER hurt and honestly, I can see this being the thing that pushes him back to who is was before, because why try when it will never matter, right?
I personally think they should BOTH tell their respective partners what happened, sit down as each couple, and decide what is going to happen. Because this is between the couple at this point. Joyce and Dorothy are now cheaters, and that is a label that sticks…forever. I think Joe deserves better, and Walky deserves at least an explanation.
I also think that if Joe, Joyce, and Dorothy sat down and talked about this like the adults they keep claiming they are, Joe might even be ok with them seeing each other and staying with Joyce. I see him having fewer issues with being poly if it is 1. Someone he knows and trusts (Dorothy), and yes 2. Dorothy being a woman vs a man. (I said he was better, not perfect, and either way, his feelings are valid.)
Joe might have been okay with being poly… but I doubt he is okay with cheating. If he just passes over that then it is because his self-esteem is so low that he thinks he deserves it, and because he is so in love with Joyce that he is afraid of losing her.
Going into a poly because of self-loathing and desperation is not a recipe for success.
I would be amused, however, to see the trash fire that comes out of it.
I was on their side during the protest when everything was happening too quickly to handle correctly, but girlsssssssss. You are currently creating the bad timeline.
What you don’t understand is, the Good Timeline requires this exact level of shitfuckery from the both of them. It’s like in that The Avengers movie, they had to give Thanos the Chaos Emerald so he could delete everyone, or they wouldn’t be able to kill off Robert Downey Jr. in the sequel.
Honestly, for me, never been persuaded by the whole “so caught up with emotions that it excuses my behavior” line. It is used to excuse a lot of people being shitty.
Your emotions are part of you. Your actions are your own. If your emotions lead you to choose to do shitty things, that is you being shitty.
And yeah, that happens. People make mistakes. But the problem with going “the emotions made you do it” is then you have no reason not to make the same mistake in the future.
Not saying your side is bad, just sharing my own perspective.
A good point. We all feel emotions, and there is little, if anything, we can do to stop those feelings from entering our noggin, but we can choose how to respond to them.
On the other hand, this facet of emotional intelligence is something that usually develops out of practice and experience. I can only speak for myself, but I know that certainly did not have that amount of maturity at 19. This definitely feels like a situation that will teach them such essential life skills. As the saying goes, “good decisions come from experience, and experience? Well, that comes from bad decisions.”
Let’s do a little relationship mapping for other characters who will care about the cheating.
1. Amber: Before Walky got back together with Dorothy, and before Lucy dumped him, he was hanging out with Amber again to play video games. Later Walky apologized to amber about Halloween, and Amber said they shouldn’t be together. Probably nothing there, but it is possible Amber will change her mind. Amber trusted Dorothy with Amazigirl, it is possible Amber will feel like she chose a bad person to trust.
2. Billy: Highest potential to not care. Probably the friend Joyce will fall back on if rejected by other people.
3. Becky: Could easily be super hurt, not by the cheating, but because it means Joyce rejected her not because Joyce was only attracted to men. Becky can’t be too noticeably hurt though, because that would imply that she still wishes she had dated Joyce, which could be hurtful to Dina. Beyond that, I doubt Becky is cool with the whole cheating thing.
4. Sarah: Sarah is in Joyces corner and “will always forgive you every time”. She will likely forgive Joyce, but also be the one to call her out on being super, super shitty to Joe.
5. Sal: Sal probably wouldn’t care that much by herself, except probably thinking the cheating was a shitty thing to do. But Sal is brother to Walky and dating Danny (who is Joe’s good friend and roommate), but probably more as a supportive partner/sibling than with personal drive.
6. Dina: Doesn’t like Joyce that much to begin with. Only get’s roped in because of Becky potentially being hurt, and how Becky being resentful of Joyce could hurt Dina.
7. Ruth: Wouldn’t care. Not her problem. Maybe will give some solid advice if Joyce/Dorothy spiral/ask for it.
8. Danny: His ex cheating with his best friend’s girlfriend. He has already said it’s morally bankrupt. I doubt he is going to want much to do with either of them after this.
9. Ethan: Hasn’t been close with Joyce in a while. I doubt the cheating will change that. He might have been far enough removed to be a friend if Joyce reached out… but Billy is a closer option and I can’t imagine Asher being thrilled to hang out with Billy.
And the more Dina is mad at Joyce separately the more reason Becky will have to distance herself from Joyce. It’s easier to say “I am mad at you for cheating on my partner’s friend” than it is to say “I am mad that you chose Dorothy and not me” especially when already in a relationship.
I feel like this should be part of the wiki, updated at least once a month. There should also be a relationship diagram that’s animated to show changes over time. Nerd Team, Assemble!
Man, I don’t know… I like Joyce/Dorothy fine in itself, but to get together in such an ugly way, sneaking around behind their established SOs’ backs, it reminds me of how Jacob told Joyce he can’t get into a relationship starting off on a basis of deceit. And he was right for that. It’s not the same circumstance exactly, but the start of the relationship springing out of lying to people close to you? That’s here too.
Not gonna lie, I miss Billie/Ruth’s toxic gay shenanigans. At least they had the juicy high entertainment value. Dorothy and Joyce are just being kinda shitty, cowardly, AND dull.
Granted, yes, I know “the comic is not titled SMARTing of Age” lol. Would be pretty boring if everyone, including characters we liked, only made decisions we could all agree with and approve of.
For people in the highly-popular 1v1 server, the answer is usually “yes”.
For others, it becomes much more situational, and we can’t guarantee anything one way or another.
Reading the comments, squaring them with what I’ve seen actually happen in the strip… considering the relationships… carry the two… okay, I’ve got it. This situation can only be resolved if Faz gives Booster a bag of pizza rolls.
I feel like even if the direct text of the story is calling them out… and on multiple points, I get this weird sense that it STILL wants us to not view them harshly for all of this. Which I can’t fully explain why though.
This is a follow-up to something I said earlier in another comment which unfortunately became a tangled mess. I’m posting this for clarity for those who asked me to respond earlier and for anyone else stumbling on this who is genuinely interested. If you are looking for more reading material or context, check the comments above.
TL;DR:
Apologies. I misunderstood how prominent a certain literary trope was and posted a comment about it. I had a meltdown because my life is currently falling apart and used AI to help organize my thoughts. I don’t care to debate the ethics of AI—it just helps me get thoughts down clearly when I’m overwhelmed. That doesn’t make my point invalid, just poorly communicated. Here’s the full context for anyone who actually cares.
I had a meltdown. Not just because of the comic, but because my life is in the worst state it’s ever been. I lost my job six months ago. I’ve been searching nonstop and still can’t find work. I lost my healthcare. I don’t qualify for Medicaid. I can’t afford a subsidized plan. I’ve had to choose between food, shelter, or medication. I’ve been rationing my antidepressants and ADHD meds. That’s where I’m at.
So when I saw something in Dumbing of Age that hit a nerve, I commented. Normally, I wouldn’t have. But it resonated with stuff I’d read years ago about a pattern in queer media where close female friendships get rewritten as romantic relationships to add “meaning” or fanservice. I remembered that because it stood out, and when I tried to look it up again, I got cited links that didn’t work. That made me look like an idiot, and commenters jumped on it.
I know I sounded angry and defensive. That’s because I was. But not just about the comic. I’m angry about how broken everything feels. About how every time I try to express something personal online, I get dogpiled or told I’m wrong for feeling how I feel. I know this is a comic. I know it’s fiction. But this comic meant something to me. It helped me understand myself, and now it’s doing something I really don’t like—and I said so.
I know I got things wrong. I’m not a media scholar. I’m not a writer. I’m not trying to speak with authority. I was trying to talk about something that hit me in a raw way at a really bad time. That’s it.
If you don’t get that or want to write it off, that’s fine. But please don’t act like I’m making things up or trying to score points. I’m not. I was venting about something that hurt me, and it got out of hand.
If this still somehow offends you, I don’t know what to say other than: I’m still going to comment, I’m still going to read the comic, and I’m still allowed to be upset about something that matters to me.
it makes your point invalid if you have to lie to make it. like it’s just a made-up issue without any connection to real world problems. the world is not forcing female friends to turn gay at such a disproportionate rate as to become problematic, you just don’t like this individual story for doing it. like sorry your comfort characters are acting too human and making too many mistakes, but saying things like “fiction matters more than reality” and lying about reality because a robot told you to isnt healthy or condusive to yours or anyone else’s mental health. i would suggest logging off and trying to find comfort in a less divisive work for a while, because continuing to be in this space acting the way you are and have been acting will not help you.
Either you didn’t read the original comment thread or, if you did, then your reply’s even more insulting. I didn’t lie. I didn’t make anything up. I mentioned a trope I’d seen talked about before — yeah maybe it’s not a major thing, but it has been discussed in media critique. I admitted I didn’t have the full context. So I went back, looked into it more, and said I’d made a mistake. That’s a hell of a lot more honest than whatever smug crap you’re doing here.
You didn’t even try to engage with the actual point or show a shred of good faith. Instead, you jumped straight to calling me a liar and mocking the idea that fiction could actually matter to someone. You’re exactly the kind of condescending asshole I was bending over backwards to explain myself to — the kind who demands sources in a comic thread but ignores tone, context, and the fact that people are allowed to feel things.
So no — you don’t get to call me dishonest or act like I’m delusional for caring about a piece of media that means something to me. Fuck you for trying to twist that into some kind of personal flaw.
Don’t ask “AI” for citations, it will just lie to you. Not only about this, but about everything.
I’m sorry you had a meltdown. I really genuinely don’t think continuing to read this comic and engage with the comments is healthy for you when it’s actively triggering you and likely will continue to for a while.
(The next two storylines are “Not-So-Smooth Criminals” and “I’m the Problem, It’s Me”.)
That’s not me trying to shut down discussion or tell you you aren’t allowed to not like how the storyline is going, it’s just me saying “I don’t think being further triggered sounds like a good time, if I were you I would not.”
you can pretend this is concern but it reads like condescension. like yeah i got frustrated, but what actually upset me wasn’t the comic — it was smug comments like this acting like you’re being helpful while writing me off as too “triggered” to participate. i already clarified where i was coming from, owned up to overstating a point, and moved on. your reply didn’t engage with any of that. it just acts like i’m unstable and should leave for my own good.
“I had a meltdown. Not just because of the comic, but because my life is in the worst state it’s ever been.”
“I’m angry about how broken everything feels. About how every time I try to express something personal online, I get dogpiled or told I’m wrong for feeling how I feel.”
“I was trying to talk about something that hit me in a raw way at a really bad time.”
I’m not being “smug”. I’m not “writing you off”. I am responding to the words you yourself wrote with basic concern as a fellow human being.
I’m also really sorry about everything else going on in your life. I’m also in the “laid off, haven’t been able to get a job” camp. I feel fortunate to be in a safe living situation with people who can support me, and to be in a state that’s actively fighting to keep healthcare accessible to low or no-income people. It’s still scary! The whole world seems really scary.
This comic isn’t currently upsetting me, but that’s not because I’m “stronger” than you, it’s because these don’t happen to be my hot buttons. One person’s zany hijinx is another person’s painful reminder, even if that reminder doesn’t rise to the level of an actual trigger.
Also I get why “stop reading then” sounds like concern-trolling. It’s really not! A lot of folks have taken breaks from the comic itself and come back happier once they no longer had the specific upsetting situation being drip-fed to them by the daily schedule. A quick binge can be a lot easier to get though!
And while I haven’t ever taken a break from the comic itself, I’ve taken frequent breaks from the comments, because yeah. Emotions run high.
Again, the titles of the next 2-3 storylines all sound like they’re going to continue being not only messy, but further explorations of cheating. It wouldn’t be you being “weak” or “unstable” to not want to read so much more of this topic right now.
I honestly have to agree with otgers saying i think it would be better for your mental health to get away from the comic and comments for a while, at least until you find yourself in a more stable and less likely to have a breakdown.
Firstly, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that and I hope your situation improves.
But I also never thought you were being dishonest- that much was obvious from your words.
And in general, I think that there’s an explanation for why *multiple* folks have expressed the same sentiment that you have. I think it has more to do with people extrapolating their own experiences. If for whatever reason, including random chance, someone consumes a lot of media that happens to feature this relationship arc, it’s really easy for their brains to extrapolate and think it applies more universally than it does.
I appreciate you admitting you used AI to express yourself. When I was unable to find the articles, my suspicion was that you had used AI, but I didn’t want to accuse you of that based off a hunch. I am sorry for the situation of your life currently, that sounds like a very stressful time. I hope things improve. You can admit that you just don’t like the current storyline, but I have to say that if your argument’s evidence is AI confirmed articles that don’t exist anymore… well, you are making things up. You should double check these things exist before you comment with them and insist people read them to understand you.
I also want to explain why some people are defensive about such a point as “female friendships always become romantic” and it’s that that is a common criticism of queer media and characters. People get upset that characters “can’t just be friends, they have to be gay” when often such tropes exist because people like friends to lovers, and gay people exist. I’m ace, I do wish there was more media about qprs and tight friendships but people love romance. Romance and sex sells! I may be ace and sex repulsed, but many people very much aren’t and I can’t deny them their media of choice just based on my desires. I can separate that and I think, because you’re in a bad mental state, you very much can’t.
I apologize if I made you feel attacked, it wasn’t my intention. You spoke with such authority and conviction about a problem I wasn’t aware of and I really wanted to understand. I’m a bit disappointed to learn that you used AI, but I hope that I the future, you will not rely on AI for information like this without confirming it exists and what the contents are.
I’m sorry for all the stuff that’s happened to you, but you really shouldn’t use AI. It’s bad for the environment and it often just makes stuff up instead of telling you accurate information.
really sorry to hear all this, and sorry about my comment earlier, i really did not mean to be dismissive
also yeah AI is no therapist, nor is it even halfway decent at, well, *anything*
it’s bad for the environment, it will reliably misinform you, the vast majority of the market for it is pure speculation, and I will always advise against using it just out of good conscience
Joyce and Joe, no matter how wholesome and healthy, weren’t going to work because Joe went into it as his first serious relationship, and Joyce went into it as her first casual one where she didn’t plan out their marriage and the names of their first five kids before he said goodnight.
Meanwhile, I’m inclined to say that Dorothy has never really given Walky anything resembling fairness or the level of thoughtfulness that he’s given her. And she can’t, because she is terrible at unpacking her own issues and all her coping mechanisms have been steering her toward burnout from the start. He does not deserve to be Dorothy’s backstop, and he doesn’t have enough relationships under his belt to stick up for himself.
And until she can at least learn some more healthy habits, she is going to repeat the same patterns with Joyce. She has been chasing a series of “If I had X that would fix me” and currently X is Joyce. And that’s really unfair to Joyce because Joyce is still pretty terrible at asserting what she wants. In that respect, Joe was and is better for Joyce because he gave her a lot of room to start doing that and figure out how to articulate that. Dorothy meanwhile will run the numbers and deliver a spreadsheet that tells Joyce what she should be doing, because that hyperfocus keeps Dorothy from thinking too hard about her own problems.
And yes, as others have said, all of these huge, gaping blind spots and pairings of people going in mutually exclusive directions are all too typical of college freshmen.
I really disagree about the viability of Joe/Joyce. Joyce wasn’t already planning their married life together right away, but that’s because she was actually allowing herself to enjoy the moment rather than think about the things she used to believe she *should* think about with whoever she’s dating. It was *also* her first serious relationship.
no Joyce, I think it’s generally agreed that you’re only cheating on both partners if they do not know about each other; as it is you’re cheating on Joe WITH Dorothy, you’re not cheating on Joe AND Dorothy. I think the appropriate term here would be that Dorothy is your mistress, or the other woman
Calling it now: They’re going to get to Joyce’s room only for Sarah to hit them with the double-whammy that she’s headed to Tony’s and won’t be there to (unknowingly) keep them honest, and that she had a great interaction with Joe and really thinks he’s changed and that he and Joyce are good for each other.
Cue Willis getting to draw more anime-style freakout faces.
my actual answer to the new poll is “cheating is the consequence of society establishing solely monoamorous conventions and expecting polyamorous people to conform to them whilst also being completely oblivious to their own polyamory because no one discusses that such feelings exist, and a vocal portion of the populace acts as though the mere notion of polyamory is a sin in and of itself”
but I understand that such is rather long for the poll widget
I mean, I won’t deny that’s also a factor, but there are some people who do genuinely get a rush from being deceptive, controlling, and manipulative. Blaine O’Malley for instance.
Yeah, I don’t think that’s really true. Or at least not most of it.
There are for example rather a lot of people (mostly, but not exclusively men) who want to be able to sleep with other people, but still don’t want their partners to. That’s not something that’ll fly in most poly relationships.
More relevant context from a now-public Patreon post about this storyline.
No spoilers, obviously, but relevant as heck for folks who wanna get some more Willis Thoughts about the cheating and the writing process behind this strip especially.
You’re welcome, it jumped out to me from the sidebar…
FWIW I’m sure Maggie wasn’t reacting to this comment section. Definitely either the active and very negative Reddit community or maybe people on X or BlueSky.
“It has all the same parts but it’s missing the teeth” is a diabolical description for a strip where the punchline is a blowjob, and I’m convinced that Willis knew that. 😀
Poll needs an “is really not a good thing to be doing, but isn’t actually pure evil, especially not given several factors contributing to the making of really stupid decisions” option. They done fucked up, but it’s not like they’ve killed somebody for fun or some other actually evil thing.
Yeah, I feel like there are definitely grades to it. You realized you love someone else and you did hanky panky before breaking up with your current beau? Bad, but not evil. You kept a second relationship secret for months/years and didn’t care how your partner might feel about it? That’s a type of low-grade evil.
Yeah, I picked middle for lack of a more nuanced take.
Joyce and Dorothy are now technically doing the thing I was most worried about them doing, but so far I still feel bad for everyone involved rather than being too disappointed in these horny dummies.
This particular poll is SO close to being useful data, but I really think it needs an (in fiction) or (in real life) specification, among other options.
I picked that option because it’s the only one that isn’t ok with or indifferent to cheating, but that’s a far more extreme view on it than I actually have. I think cheating is morally bad and I’m very disappointed in Joyce and Dorothy and think less of them for their behavior lately, but I definitely think it’s not even close to the worst thing someone can do to someone else.
I’m wondering… can anybody help me to understand something?
Like, I’m legit not trying to be sarcastic or dismissive, or anything. I truly do want to understand this.
I’m thinking I must have some kind of an “empathy button” broken, or something inside, because I legit do not understand how infidelity or extradyadic behavior (cheating) can be traumatic.
Like, I get that people do feel extremely upset about infidelity. I get that it super bothers people and makes folks feel miserable. I think I do understand that. Kind of. Like, I can see that folks are super upset and feel like they can no longer trust the person they thought they could have complete faith and trust in. So, it feels like a betrayal. Kind of like the bottom has fallen out from under you. Like you’re maybe — lost? Or don’t know what to believe? Doubting one’s own perceptions, maybe, like if there’s gaslighting or lying or deflection of blame involved?
Am I just being too literal? I understand trauma by the definitions in the DSM-V and the DSM-IV. (https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/essentials/dsm5_ptsd.asp)
And maybe that’s too narrow.
Is there a broader definition of trauma that other people use?
(You folks know I’m really literal about words and don’t quite get how the meanings change outside of their original dictionary roots!)
I just don’t quite understand how learning of a beloved’s infidelity or extrarelational affairs triggers the same response as violence or death.
…Is it the potential exposure to STIs and other contagions?
Is it the fear of loss of reputational standing if others outside the relationship become aware of a spouse’s infidelity? Like, is a threat to the sense of self?
Is it the fear that an extrarelational affair might result in an unplanned pregnancy to someone, or a pregnancy that one would not have consented to without assurances of their partner’s dependability?
I’m really not trying to diminish anybody’s experience. I’m just trying to understand what it is about infidelity that people experience as traumatic.
…I’m sorry, I don’t mean any offense! It’s just that few things make me aware of my own neurodivergence more than realizing that apparently the majority of people have a visceral, revulsive, autonomic response to something that makes so little sense to me.
This is legit me just asking for help in parsing things. I’d be grateful for any perspectives that can enlighten me about how and why this is traumatic. It would help me to understand other people better. It’s not something that I’ve ever quite “gotten”, intuitively, on my own.
Thank you in advance!
(And it’s OK if you pillory me. I can take it. I think. I hope.) 😉
OK, no, sorry, just trying to suss it out by taking the concept apart piece by piece. How I figure out what emotions mean.
Like… is it, how, you might depend on a partner for something you need, something that’s essential to you, and then you realize that maybe they might want to leave, and then you couldn’t depend on them anymore?
I get how that would be traumatic. Like losing a job and not knowing how you’re going to feed your kids or stay housed. That’s an existential threat. So I can see how behavior that could end a relationship could be that threatening, too, to one’s own sufficiency.
I don’t think there’s a good way to get information on this from website comment sections to be honest
the majority of respondants either have a personal stake or think those that have a personal stake are being silly/annoying/etc
(and people with no strong opinion are typically not moved to comnent)
Sometimes I think it depends on certain events around the cheating. For example, my grandfather cheated on my grandmother a lot. To the point that other people in their town knew about it before she ever learned of it, and she found out because one of the individuals in their town finally had enough and felt like she needed to inform my grandmother. From there, I think my grandma’s trauma response to the cheating was due to the deception of a long-term affair, as well as how humiliated she had to feel, knowing that others (some of them strangers to her) knew more about what was happening in her marriage than even she herself knew. It’s a big breach of trust and especially painful if you think your spouse is meant to be with you until either one of you dies. My grandparents made a vow together when they got married, had a child together, and still grandpa decided to cheat on her. There’s also the trickle-down of what happens after, in my case my grandma went from a housewife to a single mother who now had to work double to make money to keep a home as well as raise her son all on her own. In her case she also eventually had to take in her father who developed Alzheimers, lots of stress that would be easier if she had a spouse to help take some of the pressure off. This also leads to building resentment, as she tries her best during these stressful circumstances and thinks “if that man didn’t cheat on me, things wouldn’t be so hard”.
The other factors you noted are likely big factors too! A big thing with trauma as well is that sometimes the brain is just… funky. What some people experience as being traumatic, others might not, and sometimes it all comes down to previous experiences and perhaps just the general personality and make-up of each individual. For some people, being cheated on may be unpleasant but could be less traumatic if that person’s POV of the situation is “well clearly that person was a shitty partner. That’s not my problem, that’s theirs” and then they go about their life. Whereas for others, if that person cheated on them, it might hamper their ability to trust future partners. After all, they didn’t expect that one person to cheat, so how can they know for sure? One of my cousins has a reaction like this, that unfortunately leads her to lowkey stalk her boyfriends because she’s so terrified they’re gonna cheat… I’ve tried to talk to her about it, but with her particular neurodivergences (PTSD, Schizophrenia, BPD), she’s not inclined to listen to me, her younger cousin, when she’s so sure that her boyfriends are gonna cheat if she doesn’t keep a close close CLOSE eye on them.
You’re very welcome, Laura! I’ve never personally experienced being cheated on, so I figured pulling from family history would be the best way to go. Sometimes it’s best to pull examples from lived experiences in order to explain emotional situations. And thank you for that! I feel bad for her and my father as well, it definitely affected a lot of things for them in their life going forward.
I also wanna tell you that I think your original comment here was written very respectfully! You definitely got your point across well without, in my opinion at least, causing any offense. It’s clear that you sincerely wish to understand why people would be affected by being cheated on and I commend you for reaching out to understand!
Thank you so much, Doopyboop. I truly am grateful to know that it came out OK. I don’t have much social sonar and am pretty much a klutz when it comes to communicating effectively, so it’s always a risk to ask questions that feel obvious to people who are not me.
And… oof! For your cousin! Wow, that must be so hurtful. Like, feeling like she can never experience trust or reliance on others again. Like, feeling as though she’s somehow responsible for policing their behavior because she has to expect the worst or risk another betrayal.
Woof.
What a hard way to go through life.
My heart goes out to her.
And to you, for standing by her. She’s lucky to have a family member in her life who understands her.
Human relationships are complicated and intense and the shock and betrayal of learning that someone you loved so much you couldn’t take it wasn’t who you thought they were, that they would be willing to violate your trust and disregard your relationship, that can be traumatic.
Huh. …OK, yes, I guess I could see that. Like, it’s because of the depth of the passion and feeling of connection. I think that makes some sense to me.
Thank you for sharing that, Dot! I appreciate the perspective!
Another level of trauma could lead to always wondering in future relationships if it’s happening again. “I trusted once and was wrong. Am I wrong again now. I don’t think so, but I didn’t think so before.”
Maybe this will be a useful set of data points, since I have been cheated on a couple of times, but am having both a less intense and significantly different response to this storyline than some other commenters who share the experience of infidelity.
Instances where there has been a conspiracy to conceal a pattern of behavior involving more people than the cheater themselves have been more troubling to me because they carried the implication that no one in the larger social circle was willing to do the hard thing and tell me something I should know. The sense of betrayal was rooted in the impression that I did not have community support or respect.
Instances that have involved impulsive behavior (that I heard about from the person in question, and involving any kind of contrition), haven’t bothered me in a lasting way. I’ve forgiven stupider things than these characters have done so far, and the relationships that they occurred within survived long enough to end over more important matters.
…..Because I have a lot of sympathy for impulsive behavior you regret after the fact, since it’s a diagnostic symptom of a disorder I have. I take medication for it *now*, but I was undiagnosed/untreated for a long time, and I am intimately familiar with needing to apologize to someone you deeply value for saying some wildly out of pocket shit while manic. It suuuuucks to clip back into consensus reality and realize you have fucked up REAL bad and need to go make amends. You eventually build up guardrails and patterns of behavior to keep it from happening again, but I sure didn’t have those in a sufficiently developed state to not occasionally be a dingus to my friends at 18.
Idk, sometimes you have to be willing to forgive people if you also want to be forgiven.
Yeah, I think there’s some lack of empathy going on for impulsive behaviour. It’s easy to say “well, I’ve never cheated or had an impulse to cheat in the first place”, but it’s not always as cut and dry as that. Sometimes, something feels right in the moment, even if you know it’s not the best idea – and sometimes you feel absolutely awful about it afterwards, and sometimes you don’t actually know if you regret it or not. It’s messy! Human brains and human emotions are complicated and especially if you already have weird things going on in your brain. I’m not saying neurodivergence is an excuse to cheat, before anyone wants to put words in my mouth, but most people’s brains work pretty differently from each other, and I find that it’s hard to judge someone’s impulsive or defensive behaviour without taking the time to listen to them to figure out what led them there.
I’ve been cheated on too, and I’m also much less bothered about this arc than what seems to be the average for those of us who have. Yeah, obviously they need to talk to Joe and Walky soon, but it’s been a few hours at most – when I was cheated on, he sat on it for two weeks before he was able to tell me, and I don’t think that’s weird at all. It takes time to process that you’ve done something you shouldn’t have done and that might hurt someone you love, and even if Dorothy’s trying to draft her break-up speeches already, I would have been shocked if they were able to articulate things this early before they’ve had the time to process it for themselves. Like, that would genuinely have felt way less realistic to me than them being stupid about it for at least overnight.
To add on for Laura as well: I think it’s the damage to your ability to trust that typically hits a lot of people pretty hard. It probably hits the hardest when it goes on for a long time – some people are cheated on for years before they find out – and it’s obviously much worse if it turns out other people also knew and just… didn’t tell you, because then it means you couldn’t trust any of them to be honest with you about something that might affect your consent to stay in the relationship. But that’s not backed up so much by experience on my part, just empathy with people who have experienced that sort of thing. I was lucky in that my cheating partner told me himself fairly early after, apologized, and clearly didn’t intend to do it again, so I wasn’t too bothered, honestly. I know some people would still have taken it as a bigger breach of trust than I did, but I certainly wasn’t traumatized.
That’s a very wise perspective, Ornathe. Thank you for helping me to understand that there are different ways to see the situation, and that all the context and timing matters. I am grateful to you for sharing your story.
And… yeah. Wow. Feeling let down, like — it must be kind of like wondering who one really even is, if one cannot count on the friendships and community and peers and relationships that one had previously relied on to orient one to one’s own place in the world. It’s like, “Who am I, if my own friends won’t even stick up for me by telling me something I needed to know?”
That’s so harsh. So hard to endure.
Wow… I learned so much just from talking to you all about this! Thank you all so much for explaining this stuff to me so kindly and so carefully!
…Even though I’m an older person now, I still haven’t had the experience of seeing how other people feel these things, and sexuality was one of those things that I have never truly understood in the way that other people do.
…Best I could understand it was all different from what other people experience, it seems.
Thank you for being honest and helping me to see from the other points of view.
Looking forward to everyone finding out when Joyce’s parents show up at the dorm because they found out via news coverage that definitely caught the queer kissing.
I’m not loving that the story feels headed to a Liar Revealed trope, which is tired, especially when paired with cheating. I hope it isn’t drawn out. If Joyce and Dorothy’s relationship was going to be moved up YEARS in the story, then I’d rather dive right into it and the fallout than see a bunch of sneaking. Here’s hoping that there’s protest footage that expedites the process. Give me the big shakeup!
I also hope that Willis didn’t rush into delivering fanservice at the expense of character development. Joyce, a sheltered fundie who has experienced a crisis of identity over every revelation in her life, from loss of faith, to her autism, to her sexual awakening, to GETTING GLASSES…
She’s bisexual and not even remotely reflecting on that or acting shocked? Hopefully we get more introspection from Joyce on this once the revelation has time to breathe and the immediacy of the moment has died down.
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this is heavy…
Has something happened to the Earth’s gravitational field?
It’s been gettin Jiggy watt it.
Why are things so heavy in the future?
there’s that word again “heavy” why are things so heavy in the future ~<3
Wait a minute, Doc, uh, are you telling me you built a time machine… out of a webcomic??
Ya know, I’ve long thought that a flux capacitor looked a lot like a vulva.
Between this and the “using a bird as a storage medium” article I saw the other day, it truly is a brave new world.
Yep. Happened right after we elected that actor as president. Things been increasingly crappy ever since.
oh hun, that’s been the rest of the world looking at the United States for the past 20 years
[insert rest of rant here, im tired]
It ain’t heavy, it’s her blanket…
Still find it wild that Joyce cheated on Joe before Joe cheated on Joyce.
Weight has nothing to do with it!
I was hoping that the transition to polyamory would be smoother!
Ffs JUST TALK TO EACH OTHER
What do you think they’re doing?
Standing there. Menacingly!
They’re just standing there, under those white ovals with words on them!
Yeah what are the ovals about? I never directly look at them because they can’t realistically be there and therefore they scare me, but i can’t deny my curiosity.
Glad finally someone else is talking about this. Don’t know why the artist keeps including them. The pictures would be so much better without them.
1. +1 internet point to you today
2. Never read Subnormality. You’ll be traumed for life.
Can confirm. Read Subnormality as a teen. Messed me up good.
STANDING THERE, I REALISE…
YOU WERE JUST LIKE ME, TRYIN’ TO MAKE HISTORY
Not these other. Those other. They need to talk to their dudes.
hahahahaha yeah, they are gonna t a l k
I don’t understand?
What’s to understand? Animedingo wants them to JUST TALK TO EACH other while they are standing there talking to each other. Taffy asks a question to highlight that’s what they are doing. GholaHalleck provides an extreme but hilariously wrong answer and Abacus Wizard provides a literalist one that is technically correct and still hilarious.
What don’t you understand?
Technically correct and still hilarious is my specialty!
a spongebob meme is never wrong, but it IS hilarious.
Wise words and sage wisdom, as expected of one graced with a Dina gravatar.
you both love me and i love both of you…
Don’t make me tap the title of the webcomic again
Honestly, at this point it’s more impressive how the two of them have been managing to consistently make the worst possible decision every strip for like 3 weeks now.
Sometimes your brain shuts off and all you can do is unstoppably roll down the hill of bad decisions
Buddy of mine has a phrase for this mindset: “Breaks are out, no point in steering!”
They are teenagers and teenagers arent known for the best decision making skills….
I’ve made choices that could have gotten me charged/convicted of Grand Larceny. At my WORST, I still knew when to slam on the brakes and stop making things worse.
It’s not gonna hit Dorothy until she’s smooching Joyce and freeze frame realizes Joyce never brushed her teeth.
It’s like an indirect kiss. Except the kiss is a blowwjob.
Also this already happened. Dorothy’s kiss germs are on Joe’s ween.
That’s intense.
And you’ll note that they’re yet to anything as bad as grand larceny so I fail to see what your problem is
I dunno, I think the human damages here are rapidly approaching if not already over a lot of what would qualify for grand larceny.
Ok you be incorrect then.
That’s a little dramatic, isn’t it?
You think that two girls smooching… rises to the level of Grand Larceny.
Okay then.
Sir, you never would’ve survived the world of daytime soaps.
Couldn’t stomach Baywatch lol
human damages worse than someone stealing some power tools from a scumbag developer!?
no argument from me.
a day late, so maybe nobody will read this. But Talia Lavin was just victim of grand larceny. She’s much more sympathetic than a scumbag developer, and she is upset. But not to the degree that everyone scolding McNitz would presume.
I think the most expensive theft I’ve ever commited was a large potted plant, though I’d argue that was more guerilla redecorating, or plant liberation.
I was with a group of friends and we were very drunk and wanted to go watch a movie, so we walked right into the closed sliding doors of the cinema (because it was past midnight and it closed long before) but somehow bumping into the door made it open. So we climbed up the stairs, slid down the bannister and generally just messed around on the stairs. Then I picked up a large potted plant and put it outside before we went home.
If I had ever broken the law, the last thing I would do would be to mention it on the Internet.
I might break the law on the Internet, but that’s another kettle of fish entirely.
It was 20+ years ago, way outside the statute of limitations, and I was caught anyway so I made full restitution.
I’m not one to hide or shy away from past mistakes.
Arguably worse than kiss cheating followed by unexplained makeup sex.
But youre not a webcomic character
I’ve done some dumb things in college, but I’m pretty sure I never made decisions this terrible when I was their age.
they’re technically young adults, which are basically teenagers that are expected to know better but have yet to accumulate the life experience to do so
That’s a solid argument for Joyce, the problem is Dorothy DOES know better. She knows what they are doing is wrong, but because she’s in the middle of a mental breakdown, she’s convinced herself that it’s OK for her to be an awful person.
Joyce just follows her because Dorothy is the smart one, so if she follows her she must be right. It’s like a game of Lemmings.
Joyce has been more of an instigator in all of this. From the Kiss itself to suggesting they sleep together tonight.
I’ll admit that you’re correct, going back and checking. These two really are just AWFUL for each other.
Like, I can’t think of a way to express it besides Joyce taking advantage of Dorothy’s mental state to satisfy her own desires. Joyce probably doesn’t see it that way, but it’s absolutely what is happening.
Why are you determined to phrase this as one of them taking advantage of the other. First with Joyce follows Dorothy and Dorothy knows it’s wrong, now with Joyce using Dorothy to “satisfy her own desires”. Why can’t the explanation be “They’re both into it and being dumb about not waiting until the collateral damage is less.”
Like… they’re literally both into this. No one is taking advantage of anyone. That is absolutely NOT what is happening.
I suppose it’s because I see them both being inherently self-destructive over the last 24-48 hours (in universe), both physically and socially. This story arc has brought out the worst in both of them, at least from my perspective.
I’ll grant that my own perspective can be flawed, but I just can’t shake the nagging feeling that each one of them is magnifying the negative aspects of the other.
I take it you disagree?
I disagree that one of them is taking advantage of the other.
I totally agree that they’re being self-destructive little gremlins who are expressing their less-awesome traits right now.
describing a woman as having been “taken advantage of” in this kind of situation grates because, at least for me, it feels infantilizing and insulting. not every bad decision that women make was the result of someone engineering that outcome. it isn’t victim blaming, it’s just about recognizing that women have agency and aren’t all infants in need of protection from their own poor decision making abilities. sometimes respecting women as adults and as human beings entails recognizing that women, like anyone, can choose to make stupid decisions about their own lives if they want to.
but like, human behavior also doesn’t neatly divide into “choices made as a result of pure free will” or “choices made as a result of coercion”. there’s an enormous grey area in between because we’re social beings who constantly influence and are influenced by others. personally i do think it’s irresponsible for any person not to acknowledge the ways in which they influence the people around them and their choices but to acknowledge that you can influence the people around you isn’t to admit that you’re actively manipulating or exploiting those people. the two women here can be bad influences on each other, and can fail to fully acknowledge and understand that that’s what’s happening. but they are still adult women with agency. those things can coexist.
Also: and I’m not saying Jon is doing this consciously, I don’t think ANYONE who’s done it is doing it consciously, but the frequency with which people have talked about Joyce as being a lost lamb who gets taken advantage of, especially by Dorothy, went WAAAY up after Joyce got a referral for autism.
Li, you’re not wrong, but that may also have to do with how the stores are being told. Prior to this point, the only time Joyce was portrayed as being subject to manipulation was in reference to her faith and religion. Most of the time, her bad behavior (see: Jacob) seemed to originate from her own actions, entirely.
At almost the exact point she was diagnosed, she also began being a lot less headstrong in how she did things, giving others a chance to take the lead more frequently. End result, she often strikes people as being more passive and manipulable.
Did she, though? I don’t see that as being true.
What about when she specifically said, “Dorothy’s not the boss of whether she’s the boss of me,” because she wanted to do something? What about going out drinking, which was entirely her idea, and when Dorothy tried to protest that Joyce might get hurt, Joyce was like, “Then I guess you’d better come with me 😏”? What about her relationship with Joe, where she’s been the driving force every step of the way?
I really and truly do not see an increase in passivity or manipulatability. Mostly I see an increase in Joyce doing things, completely of her own free will, that some readers don’t like as much.
I really don’t think anyone is getting taken advantage of. “In a bad mental state to deal with this”, maybe, but that’s a bit different.
I know isn’t it amazing
Technically there’s always a worse possible decision, but they’ve been clinging to the left tail of the bell curve, that’s for sure.
“You’ve wanted this. Suffered for so long. Come and take your reward.”
Dorothy’s inner Mike to her own self. What use are morals when they’re not relevant or immediate?
this time it’s pretty straightforward. the worst decision is also BY FAR the easiest one, so making it feels like a no brainer
the irony of bad decisions feeling really good in the heat of the moment
Comic ain’t called Smarting of Age….
amen, Steamweed
I’m glad this is going in the messiest direction possible, I would accept nothing less
I wonder if Sarah will notice that they are being less gay than usual?
“You both! Your non-gay right now is bothering me! Start being gay on each other again or I’ll get the bat!”
“Joyce is being weirdly respectful of Dorothy’s personal space. OH GOD SOMETHING TERRIBLE MUST HAVE HAPPENED. WHO HURT YOU? WHICH 90% OF MY FRIEND GROUP AM I GOING TO PISS OFF IN *THIS* YEAR’S ROOMMATE DRAMA?”
I would expect Dina to clock it first
With the strip title, I did not expect this strip to feature these characters
I’d think maybe Mike. He sure liked to clean Joe’s clock!
(In a different way than Joyce just cleaned it.)
Sarah clocks pretty good with that baseball bat, too.
Ruth and Amazi-Girl are no slouches in the clock works, either.
Not Carla, though. She’s completely unclockable. 😉
Oops! I’m sorry. It appears the word “unclockable” has accrued a more… explicit… meaning than it had the last time I used it.
Ineffable, maybe? Immeasurable? Indescribable? Yeah, that’ll do a little better for Carla.
Yeah, I really expected this to a be about a certain grown ass adult who only just started hormones
Oh my god it’s everything I could’ve wanted for my birthday: Everything getting worse with no sign of improvement.
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday to you!!!
The dorm is a zoo!!!
Dorothy looks like a merecat!!!
and Joyce smells like sex, woo!!!
🥳 🪅 🎉 🎂 🎈 🎊 🎁
Happy Birthday!
May this year be your best yet and the worst to come.
The suspense. I hope it lasts.
hAPPY birthday!
Wilder Wonka is Best Wonka. None others can come close.
Would you expect anything else?
….
… oh, wait, you mean the comic.
…. um, er, happy birthday!
Happy Birthday! May you enjoy the gift of mess!
What are the odds when they get to Joyce’s room Sarah is leaving to spend the night with Tony?
100% now.
I just evil laughed so loud that my kids shushed me.
Consider yourself upvoted.
50%. The other 50% that she’s already gone for the night.
The third 50% is that Sarah and Tony are already in the room with a sock on the door knob so Joyce is sexiled elsewhere.
Or, they forgot to sockify the doorknob, so both couples wake up in the morning to see each other. Both Sarah and Tony say “Finally!”
Tony’s room is a single (no roommate). They would definitely be at Tony’s.
Unlikely for reasons Steamweed already pointed out, but it would be hilarious seeing them trying to share a bed in Dorothy’s room. Or, more to the point, Becky’s room.
I picture Sarah coming back late to find Dorothy and Joyce dozing next to each other and waking up the entire floor with “FINALLY!!!”
Plot Twist: He sends Beef over to take Sarah’s place.
Sarah’s already gone. But she left a note: “Joyce, you were at the protest, so take a shower before you and Dorothy have sex.”
I mean, it’d work on me. Their friendship dynamic is very similar to their romantic dynamic.
TBH sleeping on the difficult conversation is probably for the best. You can think about it with fresh eyes and a fresh brain.
And they can escalate their cheating from kissing cheating to full on fucking cheating too! 2 birds, one hand, or something like that.
Two fingers in one bush.
Yes, that’s a good start.
Sleeping on it separately would be for the best. Sleeping on it in the same bed… might just escalate things. But nobody is reading this comic to see the characters make good decisions, so here we go.
Except that, after Amazi-Girl showers and changes and puts some ointment on her abrasions, Amber the trash goblin will likely just go tell Walky…
Not at all. She loses plausible deniability. All she has to do is wait.
Unless it isn’t.
yes, “tell” walky.
My money is on Walky (and Joe, Hank, and Carol) finding out as soon as a photo of the kiss at the protest goes viral.
This is so stupid! (complementary)
They’re acting like complete idiots! (also complimentary)
Really living up to the comic name these days. 😬
Unfortunately neither of them are genre savvy enough to realize that they have now abdicated the ability to come clean to tomorrow’s newspaper front page.
Of all people, HANK is the one who finds out first, and then begins phoning other parents??
Hank and Carol being 2 for 4 if not possibly 3 for 4 on the gay kids springing out of the devout Christian upbringing is pretty amusing.
My homophobic dad managed to amass the L, the G, the B, the T AND the Q in 3 of 5 kids plus an ex.
Based on my own personal experience, Christian homeschool kids are queer at a rate much higher than the general population. I have several half-formed theories about why, but the data seems to hold when I talk to various other former homeschoolers from different areas.
We already know Daisy was covering the protests and there is zero chance her hornt ass is going to pass up the chance to plaster two girls kissing over the front of the paper.
Oh my god I missed that detail. Absolutely there’ll be a make out on the front page
But consider how much funnier it would be if she didn’t see it and only finds out after the fact.
Vs it being on the front page?
I don’t know. It’s not going to be on the front page without Daisy making the decision to put it there and if there is no picture, how is Daisy going to find out about it after the fact?
Maybe it was a photo of Amazi-Girl fighting cops and accordingly publish-worthy, then only after it’s released does Daisy notice the kissing in the background.
“Yeah, and I heard there were two chicks makin’ out in the tear gas.”
“THERE WERE WHAT”
“ARE EITHER OF THEM SINGLE”
I didn’t realize this. I had thought it was Jennifer. If it’s Daisy, and she got the photo, yeah that’s going on the news.
Daisy doesn’t trust Jennifer with real journalism.
No journalism. Only “Get me pictures of spider-man”!
She very much SHOULDN’T trust Jennifer with real journalism, but more specifically, Daisy has said that politics is her beat. She very reluctantly covered Robin’s rally, for example (and was in the bathroom when Amazi-Girl appeared).
They may have even been spotted in the mainstream media. Look how quickly Joyce’s dad spotted Jocelyn in the protest photos.
actually a really good point towards that happening I completely forgot that was a factor
I could easily see Daisy having the pictures and keeping them for herself. Joyce and Dotty panic telltale-heart style and desperately try to get the pictures from her. They go even further down the rabbit hole instead of just coming clean and end up looking 8000% times more suspicious.
Yeah l…suspect that may happen and it honestly feels too easy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Daisy or someone else working for the school newspaper took pictures of them kissing at the protest.
when Willis advertises his patreon for tomorrow’s strip you know things are about to get way worse
[voice = Zim] Worse? Or… better? [/voice]
We’ve been through this before. Things are going to get wetter.
That too.
What are the odds Sarah, of all people, is the one who catches them in the act and exposes them wide open, for Joyce’s own benefit or something like that?
Considering she just got buddy buddy with Joe? *God* I hope so.
I can feel the “I was wrong about Joe, and I was wrong about you too.” wham line.
That would be amazing
Oof! God, I felt that from here.
Oof, what a gut punch that would be
Damn.
Holy hell, that line hits like a steam train right to the heart. Complete sentence fatality. Well done.
I figure 50/50 chance she’ll be spending the night with Tony, thereby leaving these two unchaperoned.
God i love them both so much.
You fools, MARY KNOWS! AND THERE ARE PROBABLY PICS ON SOCIAL MEDIA OF THE TWO LESBIANS WHO MADE OUT EITHER AS A MIDDLE FINGER TO THE COPS OR AS A WAY TO MAKE THE PROTEST ABOUT THEM! As fun as it would be to see you two Chandler and Monica this, there IS a time factor here. And the longer this goes on, the more it’s going to be cheating! TELL YOUR BOYFRIENDS! IF THEY FIND OUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE, YOU’LL JUST HURT THEM MORE!!!
Who gives a shit if Mary knows? Nobody trusts a thing she says.
But imagine if you got that kind of news from the worst person you know, and later you learned they were telling the truth.
I still wouldn’t trust that person, because being right on occasion is the only way they’ve managed to survive long enough to tell me. For example, they feel thirsty, decide drinking water will make them less thirsty, and they’re right, but they still donate money to right-wing extremist groups.
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Was Telling The Truth
Exact replay of Mike telling Danny that Dorothy had a new boyfriend. Danny knew Mike well enough to disbelieve him, but Dorothy was standing right there, looking guilty.
At the end of the day, the boys will be hurt and Dorothy and Joyce will be together. This may be a classic case of “if you ignore the problem for long enough it will solve itself,” i.e. the boys will find out about the cheating and end the relationships without Joyce and Dorothy having to initiate a difficult conversation
they both have such good poker faces and self-control, Sarah’s definitely not going to notice anything.
Sarah: “huh, theyre acting less gay for each other than usual, thats suspicious”
This!!!
Luckily these two have demonstrated a skillful grasp of propreity and when not to paw at each other like chimpanzees in heat
This is going to end swimmingly for all parties, I can just feel it.
WHEN AND HOW DID YOU TWO REASON OUT THAT YOUR ONLY CHOICE WAS TO IMMEDIATELY BREAK UP WITH THEM AND GET TOGETHER???2?
…JFC but I hope they feel stupid after some sleep.
also Joyce brush your dang teeth before you forget
plot twist: dot gets pregnant
vibrating and trying not to scream now
I vaguely remember an old Irish legend with this plot.
How did it work out?
Heck, I swear I read it somewhere but now I can’t find it anywhere…
What I remember reading was narrated as a mystery to be solved by a wise king, the mystery being that a woman was pregnant but swore that she had not lain with any man. The king said “…but have you lain with any woman?” and it turns out that she had in fact lain with a female friend of hers, and that friend had just lain with her own husband, so the king concludes that the seed was accidentally passed along from man to woman to woman.
And then there’s an explosion from overhead and a priest falls out of the sky and says “Hey king, I’m a priest that was kidnapped by a band of flying demons, but what you just said was so amazingly true that it made all the demons explode because demons are allergic to truth.”
I swear I am not making this up, though it occurs to me now that I’m not entirely sure whether it was an actual medieval story or some piece of online writing pretending to be one. If anyone knows what I’m talking about I’d love to find out where I read this.
This sounds like a story Chris O’Neill would make up on the spot.
^Plus Ultra^
Dear god, I need the name of this masterpiece posthaste!
I really wish I knew. I’m great at remembering stories but not always great at remembering where I found them.
No thank you!
I mean…. I’m impressed they actually handled it that maturely.
I would be fine with them breaking up with their boyfriends and getting together. It’s better than them continuing cheating. Unfortunately, continuing cheating is what it looks like they’re gonna do, unless Sarah or someone or something else stops them.
I’m not.
Continuing to do what they’re doing (which is NOT cheating, they don’t have a monogamy agreement with the boys) is better than breaking up with them because it gives them more time to realize breaking up is not necessary.
Man, I’m poly and have witnessed several people come to the realization they’re poly, and exactly 0% of those have had successful relationships that started with having to say “we didn’t have a monogamy agreement”.
Monogamy Agreement:
Signed contract, with witnesses, in triplicate, filed with the appropriate offices.
It’s funny because this is how marriage licenses happen!
In some states it’s how the marriage happens, too — in states that allow Quaker weddings, you just get all the witnesses to sign with no preacher/judge/officiant needed aside from issuing the license in the first place.
Yis! This is the joke!
As a married non-monogamous person I would have needed a second contract though 😛
❤️ yeah I tried to add on 🙂
It’s about deception.
Do you think Walky would think it is OK to sleep with somebody else while he’s dating Dorothy? Like Amber?
Do you think Joe would think it is OK to sleep with somebody else while he’s dating Joyce?
This is an argument of consent, it requires ENTHUSIASTIC, approval before the event takes place. Your argument is “He didn’t say no, so he consented” which is WILDLY problematic.
There’s a certain class of person who is bound and determined to push the idea that monogamy isn’t the default assumption for most people in relationships in the US in the 2020.
Meanwhile, in my personal experience, recognizing this and accommodating for it is the only way to actually successfully date as a poly person.
Even under this interpretation, they should still tell the boys now. Why not, right? No one will be upset, since they don’t have a monogamy agreement.
Even if more time allows Joyce and Dorothy to realize they don’t have to break up, deciding that then blindsiding the boys with the revelation they’ve been sexing it up for days/weeks doesn’t leave them time to realize anything. Even worse if they get caught first.
If you have to rules-lawyer that you weren’t cheating, you’re cheating. Even if there wasn’t an explicit monogamy agreement (which very well could have happened off-panel), one is heavily implied by their circumstances. Hell, Joyce explicitly states in this very strip that she is cheating, knowingly and intentionally.
There’s a tiny amount of leeway where a situation like this might not cheating, if there was no explicit or implicit monogamy agreement, and you genuinely had no reason to believe the other person expected you to be monogamous. Given monogamy is by far the default in the US, that’s basically only ever true if you were introduced to somebody in a poly context. Anything else and you should assume monogamy is the default and you need an explicit non-monogamy agreement if you intend otherwise.
You just like Dotty and Joyce, and want them to be together and do not care about what they do to get to that point, even if they’re actively disrespecting Joe and Walky. Some of you need to just be more open to admitting this than saying off the wall things looking for loopholes absolutely no person actually believes in.
Joyce, Dorothy and even Willis has acknowledged this is cheating, it’s a story line about cheating.
I do agree that at this point a double breakup is the least harmful thing generally. It’s that they were acting like they’re going to turn into pumpkins at midnight if they didn’t do it now, and at the same time like it was a done deal, almost like Joe and Walky wouldn’t have much to say. Blanket conversation aside, Joyce was in deep romancing with Joe just the night before IIRC.
There’s an on-and-off feel of callousness nestled in their planning
Yeah the lack of documented discussion here is…something? For a moment there, I thought it was going to play out that Dorothy had decided to break up, while Joyce had decided to come clean, and that was going to be our misunderstanding. That it now sounds like the plan was for both to break up with their partners and immediately get together is a bit of a surprise given we haven’t seen them actually talk to each other about what they want, longer-term.
Way ahead of you, they already feel stupid, they just lack the capacity to stop doing stupid things
They’re stupid teenagers.
Never mind that the better option is staring them in the face every day, they’ve got poly neighbors.
I mean, if they aren’t interested in poly, and want to keep seeing each other, that is what they should do. They just need to also tell their partner about the cheating when they do so.
Even if they are interested in poly, there partners might not be, leading to a break up.
And even if their partners are open to polyamory, they might well not be willing to move past the cheating. A lot of people break up with partners who cheat on them.
Dumbing of Age, Book 17: In A Way, It’d Be More Suspicious If We Didn’t
So what are the odds that this is all metaphorically autobiographical and Willis is cheating on us with another web-comic?
Depends. He had an affair once with QC. Is he thusly philandering once more?
ha ha ha, i love it, godspeed you freshmen
You… you can’t cheat on the person you cheated on your partner with, by sleeping with your fricken partner! That’s literally just sleeping with the right person. OMG these idiots.
Its future past cheating! She planned to break up to Joe and date Dorothy proper, so she has cheated on her future intent with her currently past actions!
>to be read in the voice of either Doc Brown or Professor Hulk
Not Professor Paradox from Ben10, the pyrite standard for time traveling physicist?
Oh thanks for reminding me, I always meant to watch more of those!
X-Men: Cheating of Future Past
…Chaste of Future Past
I think her idea is that you can only ever have one partner, so by cheating you switched partner.
It’s a quantum partner. Only by cheating with someone can you determine whether they are your partner, but but by cheating you change their partner status.
there’s a proverb, that says: a thief that steal another thief gains one thousand years of Forgiveness.
So….
I mean. She’s not entirely wrong. The implication seems to be that she’s agreed to date Dorothy and break up with Joe. By sleeping with/blowing Joe rather than breaking up with him, she is in some capacity cheating on the agreement she made with Dorothy. It’s a much more “reasonable” cheating but it’s not like… not cheating.
…Sarah will end up sleeping at her boyfriend won’t she
We can hope.
True story, I had friends who, before they started dating, would always be like, “I’ll walk with you” when one was leaving– and they did go in the same direction, so it made sense, especially since this was usually at night, but it was also pretty clear at least one had a crush. And then one day one left and the other didn’t get up to go with them, and things had felt strange before… once friend A left, I asked friend B something like, “So, are you two fighting or did you finally get together?”
So which was it?
They were dating. (Clue was in the first sentence)
D’oh
This is making me wonder if Joyce is gonna try pushing for the polycule route.
My 2 cents is on Walky suggesting it.
Agreed. Doesn’t seem like a Joyce or Dorothy thing. Nor a Joe thing. But maayybe a Walky thing.
Two trash fires might come out of that:
1. Dorothy says no because she is actually serious about Joyce and not just doing it as an idle fling. Walky is hurt.
2. Dorothy says yes, even though she isn’t into the idea, because it let’s her feel less bad about cheating. Kind of like the people who commented “its not cheating if they become poly”.
Honestly, I’d prefer the second since it has better trashfire potential:
Dorothy sidelines the relationship with Walky without ending it, extending Walky’s pain. Dorothy feels jealous of Joyce’s relationship with Joe, but doesn’t have a good way to handle it. Joe accepts because of self-loathing and idolization, but is constantly feeling hurt, especially if he never gets a chance to work through the whole cheating thing and instead just skips to poly.
Are you saying polyamory isn’t serious?
Unfortunately a super common viewpoint that makes me absolutely roll my eyes.
But also THIRD possible trash fire:
3. Everyone says yes. Everyone is really into it, but because it started in a shitty way and none of them know wtf they’re doing it’s a total mess that ends up in a worse break up than they would have had just splitting at the outset.
In option three there’s the narrative benefit of: they’ve all grown and learned and might try more healthy polyamory in the future.
No, I think they’re saying that Dorothy would say that Walky is an idle fling.
Got it in 1
No, I am saying that she isn’t serious about Walky. Walky is an idle fling, and not one where she wants to put the effort in if she has a serious relationship alternative.
Serious relationships are work, and Dorothy doesn’t have that much free time in her recreation quadrant.
he already suggested it to lucy once, seemingly in a semi-joking manner
I feel like somebody, maybe Agatha but also possibly someone else, will mention polyamory to either Joyce or Dorothy, and they’ll go “Ah! That’s it! That’s my Perfectly Ethical Solution!” And then they’ll proceed to fail spectacularly at actually applying the concept to their current situation, and make things infinitely worse.
Dorothy is clearly reconsiderating her choices of life at first panel
I see their default is still set to monogamy, and it’s like, does it really have to be that way, especially because of how many of the others casually joke about the two of them? I can’t help but think Joe and Walky would be willing to make things work with them.
But alas, this is Dumbing of Age, so reasonable discussion and smart choices aren’t a guarantee. I dunno, I just want everybody to be happy I guess. 😀
Everybody happy isn’t really in the cards, I think. they’re intentionally repeatedly cheating.
See this makes sense to me. I feel like there’s cheating, there’s the polycule, and then there’s “we are teenagers and not exclusive, it’s okay if we date other people while dating each other.” That’s a totally normal thing. It’s not like these people are married. But it needs to be a discussion they have that everybody agrees to, and they didn’t even have a talk about being exclusive in the first place so – yeah. This could be easily fixed and it very clearly is just gonna get messier. Which I am here for, with my popcorn.
I’m not really sure what the difference between “we are teenagers and not exclusive, it’s okay if we date other people while dating each other.” and being poly is.
Unless it’s where the people involved aren’t serious about each other enough to commit yet, which is definitely not how anyone here is thinking.
At least in my own dating experience, “we are not exclusive” meant two very different things depending on who was saying it:
– “I just want to be in my slut era and have a lot of sex”
– “I am keeping things relatively non-sexual until I decide which of my options I am going to move forward with”
And in general, bad things happened when two people who had different vibes on this chart started casually dating.
Another data point from personal experience: among monogamous/culturally monogamous types, the former typically means “not exclusive *yet*” or “not really serious, just fooling around.”
E.g. i have been monogamous with my spouse for years but for the first couple months ths of our relationship we weren’t exclusive because it wasn’t a serious thing. When it became a serious thing, we stopped dating other people. I feel like this is pretty normal, but don’t mean to imply anything about the way things Truly Are or Should Be.
I see poly as “pursuing deep relationships” whereas non-exclusive dating is more like “I can’t make commitments right now“.
If your desire is to eventually be monogamous then you should do non-exclusive dating. Going the poly route while eventually wanting monogamy is a shitty thing to do to your partners. You essentially keep them in your pocket for relationship security until “the one” comes along.
Other people might have different understandings, however.
Those are all kind of my takes on it, which is why I don’t see this non-exclusive, but non-poly option as relevant here. Joyce is serious about this. She might lean towards poly. She might be torn between two serious relationships. She’s not taking them both casually.
they can barely handle a relationship with one partner, no way they can navigate the complexities of multiple partners
I know! It’ll be such a mess, I’m so excited.
The longer they put off these conversations, the slimmer that chance gets.
(also, IME, starting from a place of assumed monogamy and trying to switch to polygamy after the fact basically never ends with everybody happy)
You can be poly and still cheat. It’s about consent and intention.
Gives Joe a blowjob, immediately goes off to cheat on him some more
And from her facial expression yesterday when Joe mentioned infidelity, we KNOW she made the realization that this is what she’s doing.
And still, she chooses to be cruel.
She straight up admitted she’s cheating today, yet she’s still doing it eagerly. It’s crazy how fast this ruined me liking Joyce
Honestly, same. It’s not the wild actions of a hormonal teenager, it’s the willful, continued betrayals of somebody who cares deeply about her.
It’s just so callous and heartless
Or of someone who feels deeply conflicted and accused and is inexperienced and just figuring out new experiences for the first time and is completely overwhelmed.
(I was dumber, at that age. *Facepalm.*)
*and CONFUSED. Not “accused”. Dang autocorrect!
nonono Laura, don’t forget these are perfect people doing perfect things, and not a bunch of under 20s being teenagers….
(was also dumber, and have dumber things at that age.)
I suspect a lot of folks gut reactions are going to boil down to where they fall on the “dumber at that age” vs. “never was that dumb”.
Frankly, I was a terminally horny guy escaping religion and trying to figure myself out, and until she started this latest arc I had been really identifying with Joyce, but seeing her making these specific decisions has more or less destroyed the representation that I had been feeling.
I remember Willis once said Joyce was autobiographical. Tbh this whole scenario is p understandable to have happened at college.
Oh, it’s definitely understandable — it hasn’t reached quite the level of sublime idiocy that was my most dumb “I was cheated on” story — but I think WHY one understands it’s plausible is going to inform how one feels about it.
Huh, good point. My own dumbness didn’t really extend to relationships, so this all feels like an implausible thing that only happens in melodramatic fiction.
Oh jeez, I’m envious of you. I had front row seats to the most relationship-based stupidity IRL in my best friend at the time who was just a fucking menace to the people she dated. (And not very cool to me either but I figured that out later when I got some self-respect).
This is such a good point, and as sometime who has never had such powerful, brain scramblingly strong romantic/sexual feelings that are being portrayed here, it does seem silly but because similar things happen in media all the time I’ve grown used to the idea that it is an experience other humans have. I wonder if people would be able to relate more if they reflect on times other feelings have caused them to make bad decisions which hurt people (for me, it’s more instances of getting too angry or frustrated). None of which is an excuse or saying it’s not a bad decision but as you say, we tend to have more empathy for bad decisions we feel like we might have made ourselves.
she was aware (based on him reminding her about his issues with infidelity) that if Joe had all the information that he might not have consented in the first place, which is the bit that’s super uncomfortable for me. Like I was on Team Poly but now i’m really not about it. Joyce has shown a supreme lack of care and thoughtfulness to BOTH of her potential partners. I’m team Dorothy/Joe now. why not.
Honestly, I hadn’t even considered the issues with consent, but you’re absolutely right.
I’m team Joe/Walky. Renounce women, be gay and eat chicken nuggets
My membership of Team Poly was based on the hope that they’d both tell their boyfriends, then attempt a polycule to avoid making any decisions*, followed by everything going horribly wrong in all the best ways.
This is very much not that.
*Just to add: this is not intended as any sort of comment on poly relationships, which certainly don’t simplify things. But do these doofi know that? Informed decisions have no place here.
Makes perfect sense to get on that ship early. After all, Joyce giving Joe head and then going down on Dotty can only mean one thing: extremely embarrassing pregnancy
For anyone with less-than-stellar sex education: that’s a joke. You cannot get pregnant that way.
Not with that attitude!
Touché.
Yeah this is horrid. At least with Jacob, she was still caught up a bit in the idea of predestination, she had a bunch of friends (more worldly friends, who she trusted) egging her on, some of it was a genuine fear of admitting she messed up when talking to Harrison, and the kiss itself was a lone impulse. Not that any of it was *fantastic* behavior, but it stemmed largely from ineptitude. That she didn’t learn a damn thing from that and is just, like, gleefully going along with this, while creating more fallout for Joe in the end, is grody.
Nah, she’s not doing any more cheating. She’s just having her friend sleep over, which is just a regular and normal thing they do. Like Dorothy says, it would be more suspicious not to.
And Sarah will be there.
There’s no way anything untoward could happen.
lol “cruel”
I used to like Joyce and Dorothy, but this whole arc has been slowly destroying my liking for them more and more.
I’m sick of both of them
I love evil Joyce I want her to hurt people more
This arc has exhausted me. For the first time in reading this comic daily since ’16 I need to take a break. Yesterday was a big one with the words “infidelity” coming out of Joe’s mouth.
I’ve wanted these two together for ages, but not like this.
No amount of Joe doing the right thing makes Joyce obligated to be with him. But he does deserve the truth.
The arc where Joyce concretely tried to steal another girl’s boyfriend for kinda malicious reasons didn’t drive you off, but falling in love with her best friend and struggling to reconcile it with her relationship does?
I can see it.
That whole arc was framed as a bad thing where Joyce made bad decisions that didn’t work out and learned from them.
This one is not. (So far. We’ll see where it winds up.)
In that arc, a lot less boundaries were crossed. She was no doubt flirty with Jakes in regards to the step challenges, but it was pretty innocent until the lunch with Radiah and of course the lunch with his brother.
I can personally sympathize with Joyce a lot in that arc too. I grew up with the personal view that “I was the dork that attractive people aren’t attracted to”, and once that worldview was shattered, yeah I didn’t make the best decisions.
This one is also hard because of the trauma linkage. I really do want these two together, but I have a hard time watching them start a relationship with so many unhealthy things going on.
Listen, I loved that arc, but it wasn’t innocent. She started off by explicitly trying to break Jacob and Raidah up and only stopped because she and Jacob kissed and HE didn’t want anything to do with her after she “made him” lie (which always struck me as strange because he could have just told the truth and looked at her weird in the first place)
Anyway, not innocent, definitely crossing boundaries, explicitly splitting up a couple and was successful at it!
I feel I would have felt the same way with that arc if Jacob and her continued to sneak around after the kiss.
It was a lot more understandable too as she had literally no real relationship experience besides her time with Ethan at the time.
Ah, hit submit too early. I wasn’t even upset when these two kissed at the protest.
It’s just the full on realization that this is wrong, and both of them are refusing to fully admit it.
And that’s the key to that arc and why it seems different. She broke them up, but she also didn’t get Jacob and she seemed to have learned something in the process. Though recent events suggest maybe she’ll need a few more lessons before it sticks.
Same, at least about Joyce. I’ve been less and less amused by Dorothy’s antics for a while now.
Is it too much to continue hoping that Joyce is panromantic but heterosexual and still doesn’t realize those are two different things yet? Maybe she’ll figure it out when they “spend the night together”.
Joyce has seemed firmly hetero to me for the last ten years so I think that would be a great story direction, realizing that love and sexual attraction do not always occur concurrently. It would make for great drama too, and feel more true to the established characters.
Unfortunately with Willis apparently stating that this is the end game ship, it’s not gonna happen and ruins the fun of speculating.
Gonna be real with you, I think Dorothy and Joyce are insanely bad for each other.
Joyce puts Dorothy on a pedestal as the pinnacle of perfection. If Dorothy says to do something, clearly that must be the smart decision. Joyce basically uses Dorothy as an excuse, especially lately, since Dorothy is in the middle of a mental breakdown and is burning everything in her life to cinders because she cannot handle her trauma.
Look at the protest. Both of them, one after the other, ran into a lethally dangerous situation not just for them, but for people they claimed to care about, for ZERO reason. Dorothy did it because she’s having a breakdown, and Joyce did it because Dorothy gave her an excuse.
It’s insanely toxic, and I can’t see this relationship ever being healthy.
Joyce is obsessed with Dorothy, no doubt. I’m super straight but I’ve heard hardcore girl crushes, just with no desire for sex but I wanna be around them all the time and also wish I was them. That’s the vibe I get from Joyce. She’s obsessed with Dorothy, but not into lesbian sex the way she’s clearly super horny for dick. Obviously the slipshine is gonna prove me wrong but just saying, that’s how her character has always strongly felt to me, which is part of why this whole arc felt so out of left field to me and bugged me so much
Oh that’s funny, I wrote out my entire comment based on misunderstanding your first sentence. I thought you were saying they were insanely down bad for each other, rather than just bad for each other
*I’ve HAD hardcore girl crushes
If you hold a Paramore CD up to your ear, you can hear the girl crushes
I’m out of the loop, where did Willis say that they’re end game?
I was wrong, people were saying that he said that on previous comics but apparently that’s inaccurate. See comment below 👇
This was my thinking too. Joyce has not displayed any actually homosexual longings. We’ve even seen dreams, and they’ve centered around getting D (and being ashamed of it).
Last comment and then I’ll stop lol. I’ve just been thinking about this nonstop and I had kind of a lightbulb moment about Joyces whole “what is sex” conversation and I think it had a huge impact on her. Here’s my theory, and how I personally would like it to play it for what I think would feel true to the characters (though I’m sure it won’t):
Joyce loved Dorothy for ages but didn’t consider a relationship with her because she’s straight (and she IS straight, at least mostly). But then when she reevaluates the definition of sex and thinks she’s had sex with Dorothy (laundry), she realizes that if she’s had sex with Dorothy she’s bi and that means a relationship is an option. I think that revelation was a big moment that unlocked new possibilities for her. And of course she wants to date Dorothy if she can, because she loves Dorothy! But now she’s gonna learn that sitting on a laundry machine is very different from sex and while she likes kissing Dorothy, she doesn’t like pussy. Maybe she doesn’t hate it, but it doesn’t make her super turned on like weenies do.
I have a character like that, and I’m not a huge fan of Dorothy/Joyce, but I feel like in this specific instance that would be a massive explosive misstep. And like, this whole arc has been a misstep, but blowing up two ships only for Joyce to end up still heterosexual at the end would feel ultra problematic in a ton of different ways. Like, there is room for a romantic/sexuality miscalibration storyline in the comic, I just feel like it’s not a great idea with these specifically. Like, before the kiss? Yeah, I could see it going that way. After the double down is too late I think.
Speaking of clocking in and out, what are the odds that Sarah’s going to clock these two?
Are you kidding, they’re so subtle
So subtle. All the careful. Sarah can’t notice!
Oh god they’re going to hanky panky under Joe’s blanket. That’s like double cheating!
I know. There’s nothing worse than blanky-hanky-panky. Someone needs a blanky-hanky-panky-spanky.
Don’t get cranky. Just use a hanky! 😉
But there might be… oh wait, this won’t work in the USA, you guys don’t have this word, or at least didn’t yonks ago when I was there …
wanky blanky hanky panky, cos it’s what we do when horny (but concerned about outcomes of being horny with someone else)
Then there’s the problem of manky blanky…
Just head down to the sperm banky to put some some yanky-yanky in the tanky.
(If you’re a Yankee. Otherwise, just wanky. See above.)
What a janky situation!
Whew! I better take a tranky!
Just don’t become a Tankie.
Good one!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
…Could just get dranky instead…
Not too much or your mind will go blanky
Yeah that is deeply disturbing. Makes me want to puke. That specific image is a mild trigger for my own infidelity trauma.
If you’re feeling so traumatized that it’s making you nauseous, I’m going to very gently nudge you to consider whether continuing to read this comic is healthy or a good idea for you.
I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better, and it might be a good idea for you to skip it rather than let a daily comic unsettle you to that sever a degree.
Do what you gotta do, though. Just wanted to reach out.
severe* not sever
I know Dorothy has convinced herself that she’s sparing Walky or some nonsense, as per usual, but planning “breakup speeches” kind of highlight how much she has botched things with him for ages now.
Not a conversation or anything, just her talking *at* him and just kind of putting him back on the shelf like she’s done before.
I like Dorothy, but Joyce is going to be in for an ordeal with her if those same bad habits pop up with her, and Walky’s probably going to be better off seeking Amber again, potentially. It’s kind of depressing to think that current Amber is possibly going to be more emotionally honest than current Dorothy with how much of her PTSD she’s buried under her mattress.
I’ve always shipped Walky and Amber and would be glad to see it.
Honestly, I think it would be good for Walky to be single for a while
Saying that does not fit with this gravata at all.
It works if Amazi-Girl says it and then Amber goes “nyeh heh heh heh”
Garbage Skow is peak, I love Garbage Skow.
That said, Walky needs some time to be single. Also, desperately desperately needs some actual friends.
So how long before an iconic photo moment surfaces on social media exposing them before they come clean? A week or less?
Daisy was reporting on the protest, it’ll be on the front page of tomorrow’s newspaper.
It was a standout moment at the climax of a newsworthy event that may well have gotten nationwide coverage. They’re lucky to have made it this far, and they’ll be twice as lucky to make it another hour.
It’s REALLY funny to me how many people are absolutely furious that as of yet no cosmic judge has descended from the heavens to smite these two and ruin their lives for…. being messy college freshmen who are still in the process of figuring out themselves and their sexuality.
It’s really interesting to me how raw the anger is, how much people directly act – and seem to think about the characters – as if they were real people they actual knew, real friends they had.
It doesn’t seem *healthy*, but it’s interesting.
Figuring out sexuality does not require or excuse cheating. The Joyce/Joe relationship was developed for YEARS and people got emotionally invested in it. We’re angry to see Joe thrown away so callously after all this development. Yes, it’s just a few months for the characters and they’re dumb freshmen, but in real life it’s years of emotional investment that feels like it’s being stomped on
Thank you. I’m tired of people saying we shouldn’t feel bothered by the bad behavior of characters many of us enjoyed reading in this comic for literal years.
Thank you for the articulation. Yes, this exactly.
Yes, this! I’m like “We just got them, I don’t want to lose them!” But Joyce is being so bad to him. I love enemies-to-lovers, it’s what hooked me so much on Joe/Joyce, but cheating doesn’t fall into that trope for me. They were so good together. 🙁
Thank you — this exactly!! Joe & Joyce have been growing and changing for years and years. Especially Joe has an incredible arc when you look back at everything he’s experienced.
I’m actually less upset currently, since last strip made it clear that Joe is going to be a focus of this storyline and not just, like, shunted to the side for the sake of the One True Pairing. Not that I’d really expect that from Willis but the suddenness of the Joyce/Dorothy confession and kiss didn’t land for me.
(And no, I’m not a homophobe for using the word “sudden,” despite it being a common complaint of people who don’t like queer relationships in fiction. Willis has directly admitted that this whole romance moved faster than they intended it to with the protest as a backdrop)
The irony is that’s pretty much what happened in the Walkyverse. Joyce and Joe had unexpected chemistry, so much so that it surprised Willis, and so they had to pull back and quash it so the OTP of Joyce and Walky could survive.
So on the one hand, having been a longtime reader since the It’s Walky days, I had been excited for Joyce and Joe to have a chance at letting that chemistry flourish; on the other hand, it’ll be really, REALLY funny if Joeyce gets slapped down by the narrative again.
Yeah, same boat. I literally just wanted to see Joyce feel a little bad lol. Dorothy and Walky can be whatever, I crave the mess on that side, I just needed to see Joyce remember that she actually cared for this dude at one point.
The Joyce/Dorothy relationshipwas developed longer and people are also emotionally invested in that.
This comic has helped me through a lot of tough times. It was a huge part of how I came to terms with my own bisexuality, and I’m really grateful for that. Sometimes, yes, fictional characters do matter more than real people because they’re there when others can’t be or won’t be. These characters helped me when I was down, and that connection means something.
That’s why this latest development is such a gut punch. Joyce and Joe’s relationship had years of emotional buildup. Watching that get swept aside, especially in a way that’s going to hurt Becky and Dina (a couple I really love) and likely Walky too, feels like a step back. I know Willis isn’t trying to say bisexuals are cheaters or push the idea that all close female friendships must become romantic, but unfortunately, it does come across that way in this context.
This isn’t coming from hate or outrage. It’s coming from someone who loves the story, loves the characters, and just feels hurt by the direction. I get that it’s fiction, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.
Where the hell this “female friendship must become romantic” thing come from? I don’t think that is a real issue one can “push”.
From what I’ve seen of fandom over the years, the prevailing opinion seems to be that all friendships must eventually become romantic and/or sexual.
That is shipping i am asking about the “trope” that tgey say Willis is coming across as pushing.
The “close female friendship must become romantic” trope isn’t something Willis is necessarily intentionally pushing, but it’s a broader media pattern that’s been discussed for years. It shows up when stories consistently take emotionally intimate relationships between women and reframe them as romantic or sexualoften because audiences or creators feel like that’s the logical conclusion.
Yes, there are hints that Joyce may be somewhere on the bi spectrum, and that’s valid. But the issue for me isn’t her queerness—it’s the timing and the emotional buildup with Joe. From our perspective as readers, we’ve had years of seeing their relationship develop, but in the comic’s timeline, it’s only been two or three weeks since they got together. That disconnect between real-world time and in-comic time makes the sudden shift to Dorothy feel jarring and unearned, even if the groundwork was being laid in some ways.
Actually, I went back and counted it! Assuming each chapter in each book is a day (which typically is the case) they officially started dating in Joementum which means they’ve been together 9 days!
Been discussed by who?? I don’t really think that is a thing and if it is i don’t see how it would be a problem? That sounds really cool wish it actually happened.
.Just because you haven’t seen this discussed doesn’t mean it isn’t real. The idea that close female friendships often get reframed as romantic is a pattern that’s been written about and critiqued in media circles for years. It’s not about saying queer representation is bad. It’s about how emotional intimacy between women is often only validated when it becomes romantic, while close male friendships are allowed to stay platonic.
Writers at places like bongo Media (“Compulsory Romance and the Erasure of Female Friendship”), The Atlantic (“Why Is Platonic Intimacy So Rare in TV and Film?”), and The Mary Sue (“The Loss of Female Friendship in Popular Media”) have talked about this exact issue. It’s also been discussed in queer fandoms and academic work like Joseph Brennan’s paper on queerbaiting.
The point isn’t that Joyce and Dorothy can’t happen. It’s that the way it happened feels familiar in a frustrating way, especially when it sidelines other well-developed emotional arcs like Joyce and Joe.
For anyone confused, I referenced B*t* Media. The site seems to auto-change the word to “bongo,” but that is the actual name of the publication. I’ve censored it myself to avoid the filter and to respect the forum’s preference for avoiding that word, while still providing clarity about the source.
chiming in here to say that, below, i mentioned trying to find any evidence articles by these titles existed and all i could find was this comic’s comments page
Asking here too in case Ursula sees it:
Did you ask ChatGPT for articles about platonic female friendships turning romantic? Because it’s not a search engine. It will just lie to you.
If you’re actually interested in what I was trying to say, not the tangled thread and meltdown, I posted a new comment. You’ll have to search my name to find it. I’d rather express my opinion cleanly and clearly in a fresh space than let it get buried in the mess above.
Also my long resposne is coming after i slept.
Everyone bonks everyone else (I think Questionable Content’s vultures once said this as a comic ‘spoiler’).
Pretty sure it was a guest comic or yelling bird comic first, actually. Even if the commenters took it and ran with it.
Thank you for naming a lot of what I’m feeling.
My favorite part is the number of people who have just massive meltdowns about the sociopolitical impilications of *checks notes* a comic strip teenager discovering her sexuality.
Some of these folks need to touch grass in the worst way.
Honestly what I see is people constantly trying to act like anyone who thinks cheating is not cool is bananas and try and convince everyone it’s not cheating. So confirmation bias maybe. Like I’m reading the comments and mostly noticing people like you mocking others for emotional investment and you’re seeing people go off the rails over cheating.
When really we just have different viewpoints and should chill out (and not mock each other). Like yeah I get invested in characters otherwise why do I care what happens in a story? And to be real I would have side-eyed this behaviour when I was 15 so it’s not like immature people just all do stuff like this. I don’t think they’re evil or something absurd but I’m really disappointed and not having a fun time with the current arc. That’s fine.
There are a loooot of different threads. A lot of different conversations that are all happening at once, varying in frequency and intensity and volume.
— Conversation #1: people reacting directly to the comic’s events, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.
— Conversation #2: people reacting negatively to the positive reactions to the comics, often descending into “what is WRONG with you, how can you not be upset right now? Don’t you know that cheating is morally wrong?” and sometimes also, “I feel sorry for your partners in real life, since you obviously cheat on them.”
— Conversation #3: negative reactions to Conversation #2, often starting with, “Come on, it’s just a story, it’s okay that some people like different drama in their web comics than you do, none of these are real people with real feelings,” but sometimes descending into, “It’s really weird to get this upset about fiction, are y’all okay?” or ruder.
— Conversation #4: negative reactions to Conversation #3, often to the tune of, “It’s actually very normal to get emotionally attached to fictional characters, why are you talking about me like I’m crazy just because I don’t like fictional cheating?”
— Conversation #5: meanwhile, mostly unrelated to the prior four conversations, some people have occasionally commented on cheating in general, saying stuff like, “Man, this isn’t cheating to me,” often reacting to direct prompts from Conversation #2, where some people have asked the commentariat, “Is this not cheating to you?!”
— Conversation #6: negative reactions to conversation #5, mostly using it as evidence that people who ship Joyce/Dorothy are “willing to rationalize ANYTHING” and “bending over backwards to explain why this isn’t cheating, just because it’s two women 🙄”, mostly missing that Conversation #5 people are mostly talking about their own real lives and their own real relationships, where they’ve genuinely and fairly got a different standard for what cheating is, one which their partners are on board with.
…a lot of us are kind of talking past each other. Folks in Conversation #4 feel targeted by Conversation #3, but they’re not the targets, they’re just getting caught in the crossfire.
Also, since I made the original list, we’ve also got:
— Conversation #7: “why is Joyce suddenly a lesbian and/or bisexual? I thought she was straight! Willis is just pushing an agenda here. Ugh! Some of you just wanna jack off over ~sexy~ lesbians and you don’t care how many good men get hurt!”
— Conversation #8: a negative reaction to conversation #7, which is mostly “Boy, it sure does suck that so many commenters are queerphobic,” but DOES admittedly sometimes descend into claiming “everyone” who’s upset is “only” upset because they hate queerness. Not often, and I’ve personally been trying to call it out when I see it, but it does happen.
— Conversation #9: “Hey, what? I’m not queerphobic! I do think this came on kind of suddenly, and/or I just don’t like cheating, but Joyce being bi isn’t part of why I’m upset! No one’s saying that!”
^ Conversation #9 is, again, feeling understandably targeted by Conversation #8, but going too far in claiming that no one has been queerphobic.
But to Strawb’s point, that’s your viewpoint on the discourse. I understand that you’re trying to be, but it’s not necessarily any more objective than anyone else’s.
Like this frames it as 1) Initial reactions, positive and negative
followed by 2) negative reactions to the positive reactions
as if that’s the starting point for all the negativity. As well as giving the worse examples for one side and much more reasonable ones for the other.
There have definitely been people reacting directly to negative reactions in 1). And there have been people with some pretty messed up pro-poly opinions as well – like monogamy being an unnatural religious control mechanism or “monos” inventing the idea of cheating because they’re jealous and controlling.
It’s really easy in big contentious discussions like this to gloss over problems with posts basically on your “side” and concentrate on the problematic parts of those arguing with you.
I… don’t think I claimed to be objective? I’m not! I’m absolutely on one team. And sure, I’ve seen much worse reactions on one side than on the other.
I think laying out the different layers of conversation still helps. You don’t have to agree with the specific examples of things being said for the rest of the post to still have some value.
Like this frames it as 1) Initial reactions, positive and negative
followed by 2) negative reactions to the positive reactions
as if that’s the starting point for all the negativity.
This bit, I don’t understand. Are you saying some people were negative before they even saw the comic? What starting point did I miss?
There have definitely been people reacting directly to negative reactions in 1)
??? Reacting to other people’s negative reactions before they had negative reactions? Are you talking about people anticipating negativity? Because I didn’t see a lot of that, but it’s not like it wasn’t completely possible to predict what general camps were gonna form, based on the last cheating storyline…
And there have been people with some pretty messed up pro-poly opinions as well – like monogamy being an unnatural religious control mechanism or “monos” inventing the idea of cheating because they’re jealous and controlling.
You’re talking about two people there, one of whom just commented for the first time today, and both of which are reacting to the societal-wide negativity towards polyamory, though Vic has also been the recipient of some pretty nasty allegations prior to today in this very comment section just for talking about their own personal definition of cheating, so like, if I were him, I might also be lashing out.
Anyway, let’s add Conversation #6b, slotting it in between 6 and 7, for “people reacting negatively to Conversation #6, sometimes going as far as saying that monogamy is unnatural and that monos are all toxic.”
Again: not everyone can possibly read all threads, we’ve had hundreds of comments and on one memorable occasion as many as two thousand, but also.
Let’s not pretend queer and poly readers who come into this comment section already on high alert are jumping at shadows? It’s not cool, but it’s also not exactly difficult to understand and empathize with, given the state of society at large.
I think we mono people can handle being called monos and sometimes told that maybe monogamy is the real evil, tbqh. We’re the ones running the world, while their relationship preferences are literally illegal on six of the seven continents, and there’s several asterisks on Africa.
ALL THAT SAID, if I had it to do otherwise, I definitely wouldn’t have included the specific quotes I did on Conversation #2!
For one thing, the “I feel sorry for your real-life partners” was much more in response to Conversation #5, and more in the minority of responses to Conversation #1. For another, I really meant to split that first quote up, because there was a bit of an escalation, I think.
It started with: “Why are some of you happy? This is so wrong!”
And some people stayed there, absolutely. No one who was part of any individual conversation wave was saying all of it, every conversational wave had some people who were more chill and some people who were more on edge.
And most of the arguments happening between Conversation #1 and Conversation #2 were, like everyone else, talking past each other, as some folks from Conversation #1 were going “omg yes my ship!” and some of them were saying “I really don’t care about Joe, I’m just happy these two are finally together,” but rarely was anyone initially saying anything about cheating being okay, especially not in real life.
And some of the negative responses to Conversation #1 were also talking about it in terms of pure fiction, like, “Man, I don’t understand how anyone can want something bad to happen to characters they claim to like,” that sort of thing, but a lot of the negative responses were from people specifically upset that the cheating was being glossed over or ignored… and some of them were, yes, incredulous that anyone could be okay with cheating in general, rather than just not caring about fictional cheating.
Which led to a fair bit of what I bet Conversation #2 people would characterize as saying, “Cheating is awful! It hurts people!” — and getting back responses of, “Who cares?”
But I maintain that there was subtext being missed by both parties, where “Cheating is awful [in real life, and as a result I don’t enjoy it in fiction]!” was meeting “Who cares [because this isn’t real life, so no real people are being hurt]?”
Like, by FAR the biggest miscommunication and sense of tension I keep seeing is people getting caught in the crossfire.
Conversation #4 people have every right to feel aggrieved, especially because some Conversation #3 people are going so far as to either say outright or strongly imply that some folks here are overidentifying with fictional characters to the point where it’s delusional. Super not cool!
I just also think that Conversation #3 people also have every right to feel aggrieved about what was being said about them in Conversation #2, or Conversation #5.
Like, inasmuch as there are sides here, there are certainly bad actors on both sides. But of course I’ll cop to thinking the veiled and sometimes overt queerphobia some of the anti-Joyce/Dorothy people are slinging around is worse than most of what’s being said by the pro-Joyce/Dorothy people. Just because of, like, the systemic power behind it.
* Asterisk because, well, I fully understand that some of the worry I myself have expressed sounds like concern-trolling. I really am kind of worried about some of the more extreme things I’ve seen expressed — people talking about this storyline in ways that sound very much like they’re being triggered, as well as some people just generally echoing sentiments like “the purpose of art is moral instruction”, which just… never leads anywhere good.
And I worry about the kids in the grip of this decade’s moral panic, where you’re very much not allowed to like any kind of art that isn’t morally perfect. Where you’re only supposed to like Morally Pure ships.
I really genuinely worry about those kids, because I got caught up in that for a little while, and it was so bad for my mental health.
It’s hard not to be reminded of that by some of the discussions here, but I really have been trying not to paint with a broad brush.
Perhaps I phrased that first part badly (over using negative).
In 1) people have both positive and negative reactions to the comic.
Your 2) is all about people reacting negatively to the positive reactions to the comics. And you’re framing it as if that’s where all the conflict in the comments comes from. The rest of your Conversations derive from these people reacting to people who aren’t upset about the cheating in the comic.
My point is there’s also a 2b) People reacting negatively to the negative reactions to the comics. Not all the sickos side is defensive reactions to your Conversation 2.
I genuinely didn’t see a lot of 2b! I saw a lot of 3s being mistaken for 2bs. A lot of “hey, I’m allowed to not enjoy this story!” objections, being consistently met with, “Of course you are. I’m not upset that people aren’t enjoying the storyline, I’m upset that I’m being accused of being morally bankrupt.”
Li you’re like one of the most sensible people I see on here and I totally agree with you (broadly speaking).
I do think we’re picking up on different things but that was really my point. So many comments we’re all going to have our biases hilighting different ones and clearly this arc is a touchy subject leading to overreactions.
Oh for sure. I’ve been trying to keep in mind: darn it, not everyone on either side is saying all the stuff I’ve seen said! It’s definitely not fair to talk about either side like we bear collective responsibility for it.
Not everyone who’s upset about Joyce/Dorothy has a Sailor Moon avatar, for example. That was just one weirdo!
There’s also an uptick on today’s comments of people being like “wow everyone SURE IS wildly overreacting to the cheating,” which sound kinda like they’re coming here from BlueSky or something and haven’t actually read the comments…
And what sucks is I feel like we’ve been calming down overall, with a couple of people explaining why they’re upset on both sides but not in a way that’s provoking more argument… but those new comments would sure get under my skin if I were on that “side”, orz.
Also fff thank you 🥲 I try, heh.
These damm pills change good happy fundie girl into gay
frogliberal !11!oneoneReposting from yesterday bc I’m still seeing “Willis has said this is endgame” comments, and no? They haven’t?
– They’ve said the “queerbaiting” strip with Daisy was meant to wink at the audience and reassure them that the tension WAS going to be resolved eventually.
– They’ve compared this to Leslie and Ann (Parks & Recreation) and JD and Turk (Scrubs) and talked about how they did get to thinking about how cool it would be if either of those shows had actually Gone There, and then realized hey, they’re the author of a similar situation, they had the power! They could go there!
– They’ve talked about having always envisioned Joyce going to Dorothy through some type of adversity and quoting the Book of Ruth at her again, this time romantically, and they’ve talked about realizing halfway through the protest story that it was happening, and hastening to add more wedding type imagery to the scene.
…but none of these things have to mean the ship is endgame, and even if it IS, endgame is a million years away — Dorothy and Joyce could break up tomorrow and then still wind up together in a far-future DoA epilogue.
Like, it wasn’t a literal marriage. And even if it had been, marriages end in divorce all the time.
Well that’s a relief! Other people said he said that so I figured it was the case. Glad there’s still room to wonder what will happen
You’re welcome.
Also someone asked Willis if Joyce loves Joe, and they answered, if you’re curious what they’d be willing to say on the topic.
Ha! I say to the naysayers.
Man, reading Willis’ unfiltered thoughts/answers on Tumblr is making me think he sits among us here in the comment section under a pen name. The vibe and energy is exactly the same.
My money is on Taffy being the secret Willis.
On one hand, I’d be amused if Willis plays XIV. On the other hand, I generally find Taffy infuriating.
Real Monkey’s Paw stuff.
Well, I’m sorry for infuriating you. If it helps, you can keep an eye out for my avatar and bright red username and then skip past when you see them. I do that for a few users, and it makes things much nicer.
I’m just saying, I’ve never seen you and Willis in the same place /j
That meme was funny for a day or two, but it’s run its course by now. “Somebody touch-a my spaghett” had more staying power.
“Joyce loves pretty widely and strongly”
Is this a hint?
Joyce is about to get swole, I just know it.
I think it’s definitely a hint. What it’s a hint for remains to be seen, bc it could definitely be “poly Joyce someday”.
I imagine there’s no real endgame for this series seeing how we’ve seen so many people get together and break up. I used to think Danny and Amazi-girl was endgame, after all!
Honestly at the pace the comic goes thinking about any kind of “endgame” is pointless
Agreed, unless Word of Willis says “the comic’s ending in a year” I’m not even gonna try to assume any endgame ships.
By the Twelve, the comic’s ending in a year???
That’s what I heard!
Of the relationships currently active in this strip, I would identify Dina/Becky and Sal/Danny as the only ones likely to be endgame.
Definitely Dina/Becky. Danny/Sal SEEM very stable right now and also cute together, but I wonder if Willis won’t eventually want to explore what Danny would be like in a relationship with a guy? Danny and Sal can still get back together before endgame, though!
That would be nice, though not necessarily the queer narrative I’d prefer to be exploring with Danny *cough*thateggneedstocrack*cough*
They did float transfem Danny/Sal as an option for making their comic even more queer.
Which would I think be a double bonus.
I’ve gotta know, where are y’all getting the vibes that Danny is trans other than him being generally a good egg? /genuine question
Like, I’m not opposed at all and think it would be a good storyline, I just see it come up a lot and wanna know what I’m missing in text because I haven’t really seen it. Idk why, I’ve always gotten those vibes off of Billie, not Danny.
Because I am a trans woman and I was almost 100% exactly like Danny when I was in college
Like, it’s not that Cis People Never Do (whatever thing), of course, but sometimes a character just resonates.
(I’m nb, Malaya resonated. I also get some agender vibes from Dina. But I honestly feel like a clumsy baby deer in terms of having any kind of Trans Radar. I barely have a gaydar.)
Yes, thank you. I don’t follow the outside commentary and I’ve gotten some discouraging impressions that you’ve helped mitigate here.
You’re welcome.
I think there are definite indicators in what they’ve said that Dorothy/Joyce isn’t going to immediately evaporate, and that they won’t break up in a way where they can’t still be friends afterwards, but not “they’ll never break up, ever!”
(And that second one is me reading into Willis saying that their interactions, and Joyce accidentally saying gay stuff, are one of their favorite things about writing DoA.)
“hastening to add more wedding type imagery to the scene”
So I wasn’t imagining that the comic was explicitly framing the cheating as cute/romantic. Good to have it confirmed.
I mean, I think yes and no? I think Joyce/Dorothy finally resolving their romantic tension was very much supposed to be romantic. I don’t think the cheating is supposed to be romantic, so much as that Joyce and Dorothy are currently caught between the “excited to sneak around” and the “guilt about sneaking around”.
I’ve never cheated or been tempted to cheat, but it’s my understanding that people find it somewhat exhilarating, between that high crashing back down to earth and guilt and the reality of hurting people you care about.
Except that resolving their romantic tension was the cheating. It was the Kiss that got the wedding imagery. And that wasn’t just the characters finding it exhilarating, but the author framing the scene that way.
I mean, the author framing it that way conveyed the characters’ feelings.
I genuinely do not think there is anything going on right now or before that could be construed as “endorsing cheating”, but framing is subjective, so. 🙂
Maybe. That’s not usually how that kind of framing works, but I guess it’s possible.
Really and truly: I don’t think we can say for sure how this is being framed until the high of New Relationship Energy combined with the unfamiliar spice of Taboo has worn off.
I think this is a false high before a fall. Or a Fools’ Spring, you might say.
Not only are they both doing the cheating bisexual stereotype, Joyce is also playing into the Christian belief that atheists have no morals
Which is weird because Joyce had a whole moment unpacking that after Jacob blew up in her face. Complete with that exact “atheists don’t feel bad about hurting people” misconception and then realizing that whoops, yes they do.
When was that?
Which might clue you in that isn’t what it’s happening here
give it a rest Jeremiah
Give what a rest?
Nitpicking. 😉
You seems to think anyone disagreeing with you counts as nitpicking so i don’t think i could stop that even if i wanted.
Meanwhile, what Nadamás actually said to Jon: “[The fact that it’s weird and that Joyce already learned that atheists do have morals] might be a clue that that’s not what’s happening in the current storyline.”
That’s not an unimportant detail to criticize. It’s kind of the whole foundation upon which Jon’s comment rested.
Jeremiah/Nadamás polices other people’s impressions, without having anything to add. Just insisting they’re objectively wrong.
That could be called nitpicking.
I am honestly flattered that you seem to care enough about my random comments to get salty about it.
“oppositional”? I think that describes what you’re talking about?
I might also say contrarian, bc I think he’s a bit of a contrarian, but idk. I’ve had nice conversations with him, too, and seen him having them with other people.
Thanks you are also very nice. If i seem contrarian it’s mostly because like a lot of people i don’t fell as strong a pull to comment on things i agree with. I don’t do it on purpose or anything it’s just how it turns out.
Another interesting thing I realized is that Dorothy is the one who has been trying to pump the brakes repeatedly, who has said they can’t because they have boyfriends and that they need to talk to their boyfriends. Joyce meanwhile keeps tempting her being like “wanna go do laundry?” “Wanna kiss more?” “Wanna sleep over?” Dorothy keeps trying to do the right thing and Joyce keeps being the devil on her shoulder.
There’s a monstrous level of horny behind a recently religiously decoupled young adult.
Some of my childhood friends were pastor’s kids, went to church religiously while I was their ‘weird agnostic friend’. Fast forward to our early 20’s and the horny was heavy for them. More power to them but the some of the rest of us couldn’t keep up with the social horny energy.
that explains becky
Jiminy Crimino, what an exaggeration.
Go away Taffy
Come over to my house Taffy I have popcorn.
Seconding this! Taffy’s definitely welcome to any parties or whatever I have.
No?
What a shitty response, Erica.
Is atheists having no morals a… stereotype…?? It’s like, a lie that christians push, but that feels like it carries a different connotation than the term stereotype.
It’s an idea some Christians push, mainly based on “well if you have no Godly judgement/no belief in heaven, what keeps you from committing sins on the daily?!” because some of them (particularly the angry Southern variety I’m acquainted with) believe that the only reason someone would be good is if they fear burning in hell. Ergo, you don’t believe in Hell? Then you’re not afraid of going to hell and thus probably sin all the time!! It’s silly.
Also just read where you agreed it’s a lie they push lmao sorry. I’m not sure if it counts as a stereotype but it’s definitely a firmly held belief I’d say.
It’s kind of a huge self-report on their part, right? “If I weren’t afraid of eternal punishment from an almighty being, I’d never behave myself or be kind”, because of course even if they don’t want it to, that standard has to apply to them as well. Once somebody parrots the “atheism = no morals” thing, it’s time to start avoiding them for your own safety, because they’ve just admitted they’re dangerous to be around.
There absolutely can be, but Joyce at her most ignorant is a great example of why it’s not universal. I think Joyce, as an atheist now, would say that she misascribed her own moral compass as being given to her by God, rather than her own inherent decency. Which matches with my life experience- I’ve known a few people who probably believe something like that, but were nonetheless not in any way shape or form “dangerous” in the sense of “this person is a sociopath who would run me over for a nickel if they weren’t agraid of eternal damnation”- they could be casually bigoted and ignorant- reason enough to avoid them, but I never got the impression they were attack dogs and the leash was their religion. They were ignorant people who misascribed their personal morals to a nonexistent deity.
It sounds nice, having the luxury of trusting that sort of person.
I will certainly admit that my privileged status makes interacting with these folks a lot less fraught.
But I guess my point is that while they certainly can be monsters, they’re not holding back from being serial killers because they think God will punish them for it. They just ascribe the general “I don’t want to be a serial killer” feeling most folks have to God.
I’m not sure what it’s like in other countries, but in the US there are definitely a lot of Christians who seem to believe that atheists have no morals because we don’t believe in their god and their ideas of afterlife. That plus the association of atheism with communism during the Cold War has caused a lot of people to think negatively about atheists in the US for a long time.
I… very much doubt that second thing is the intended messaging. Also, of course, the comic has like 10 bi characters of varying prominence, and none of them have cheated.
(Dina (in addition to things she said, she was attracted to Walky in the Walkyverse), Jennifer, Ruth, Danny, Asher, Malaya, Booster, Robin, Jocelyne, Marcie (Patreon bonus strip shows her going off with a male friend to mess around, but also she and Sierra and Mandy and Grace were all bi in the Walkyverse)…
…and there’s still characters we don’t know about for sure, like Alice (probably bi!) and Walky (keeps saying Questionable things, seemed kinda into Asher), Charlie and Tony (too little data).
Oh, and Mike. Who despite being awful, was only ever cheating-adjacent, and never cheated on anyone he was in a relationship with.
Actually Asher like, broadest definition cheated and then immediately told Billie and ended things (she did not gaf), and while Ruth hasn’t like cheated cheated, she’s more or less openly said that she would in a heartbeat with Billie. Jason also would not be hurt by this lol. Bro is the definition of coasting.
And Mike did not cheat on anyone, but he broke up many happy marriages by seducing people’s mothers for a nickel and thus must be counted as a Problem Bi /j.
[Not disagreeing with the broader sentiment of your comment, just nitpicking tiny details.]
Hah, I’ll gently disagree with the first two. The third one made me laugh.
So here are my nits for your nits 🙂 Meant entirely in good fun!
1. Asher did come the closest, before this storyline, of our bi characters: but he resisted acting on his attraction to Ethan until he had very good reason to think he and Jennifer were broken up. Close, but not quite there! Unless I’m misremembering something, which is totally possible.
2. But Ruth definitely didn’t say she would cheat on Jason. Jennifer said “you’d drop your dumb boyfriend in a heartbeat if I said I wanted to get back together,” and Ruth agreed. Being willing to dump someone isn’t the same thing as being willing to cheat on them…… as Joyce and Dorothy are currently demonstrating in reverse orz
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/02-the-one-where-jocelyne-returns/bloodinthewater/
Also maybe I should “honorable mention” Jennifer and Alice? The comic hasn’t actually said this, but given that Jennifer thinks you’re allowed to makeout with and “bang, like once” your best friend while still being “regular best friends”, it’s possible she and Alice did as much while one or both of them had boyfriends.
I kind of doubt it was the plan before, although Willis might be retrofitting it into Jennifer and Alice’s past now in order to give them a slightly different perspective on what Joyce and Dorothy are doing.
Uh, no? Neither of those things are happening.
OK… I think I have officially moved from the upset/mad stage to the exasperation portion.
Which feels mildly better. The next stage is resignation and if this pace keeps up, it probably won’t be long.
This is getting ridiculous. Just talk with your boyfriends already!
Talking is hard, and they’ve already been cheating so why not cheat more? In for a penny and an that /s
Honestly we moved past “ridiculous” and into “farce” a week ago, and we’re rapidly approaching “terminally boring”.
Yes, yes, these two idiots can’t resist their new blooming love. I thought if sickos were going to win we’d at least get “mess”, not “interminable building up to mess that is not here yet”.
messbaiting
They keep trying to do the right thing, but the sitcom rules of their universe bend for no woman.
Trying to have a serious talk with your partner? Wacky hijinks ensue!
Just put the four of them together. I’m not entirely sure about a Joe/Walky pairing but make it Joe/Joyce/Dorothy/Walky in that bed and everyone will be happy. I’d be sad to see Joe and Joyce break up.
Ah, the classic fuck mountain approach of solving relationship complications. In my own experience, they sure do resolve at least some problems! The fact that additional problems arise is outside the scope of fuck mountain.
This could work. Hear me out.
On odd days, Joyce sleeps with Joe, Dorothy sleeps with Walky and Amazigirl goes on patrol. On even days, Amber sleeps with Walky, Dorothy sleeps with Joyce and Joe gets to watch.
When does Walky sleep with Joe in this schedule and when do Dorothy and Joyce get to sleep together without an audience?
In addition to Nymph’s point, Dorothy would also like some Amazi-Girl action.
I’m actually impressed that Joyce and Dorothy confronted their feelings for one another and immediately pivoted to breaking up with their boyfriends.
That’s the only thing I’m impressed with.
I’ve read this comic every day for years. It played a big part in helping me come to terms with being queer and bi, and I’m really grateful for that. That’s why I want to be clear: this isn’t a dealbreaker for me. I’m not rage quitting the comic or saying the characters are bad. I love these characters. But the Joyce and Dorothy pairing just doesn’t sit right with me.
It feels like it plays into the old trope that close female friendships must eventually turn romantic, and while I do think Joyce might be figuring out her feelings, including her attraction to Sal, this still feels sudden and narratively off. The sliding timeline makes it more jarring; for us, this has been years of build-up with Joyce and Joe, Dorothy’s stress, and their separate arcs. Then suddenly, one protest and we jump to romance? It doesn’t feel earned.
I’m also worried this sets up a lot of unnecessary pain, especially for characters like Becky and Dina, who are one of the healthiest and happiest couples in the comic. I love that relationship, and the idea of it being hurt as fallout from this just sucks. I know drama is part of the story, but this came at a time in my life where I’m low and kind of needed some goodness to hold onto in the narrative.
I’m not against queer representation. This comic’s rep means the world to me. I just don’t think this specific pairing was the right call, not because it’s queer, but because it feels like a trope, not a payoff. And that’s been a bit of a gut punch.
If you love this pairing, that’s totally valid. There is narrative build-up to support it. But I’m speaking from my gut, and it just didn’t work for me. I also hesitated to even say this because, quite frankly, commenters here can be ruthless. I often feel like there’s very little room for sympathy if your take doesn’t align, and people are quick to rip you apart for being “wrong.” But I wanted to say it anyway because I care.
A lot of people including myself have been saying the same exact thing for weeks now, you’re not alone. I completely agree
Thank you!
I’d argue that it isn’t playing into the trope that close female friendships eventually turn romantic specifically because we have examples of that not happening. Tons of them, even. I’d say Joyce and Dorothy (and maybe Alice and Billie since they had a situationship going on) are the only examples of female friendship becoming romance in this comic.
Other female-female friendships include: Becky and Joyce, Becky and Dorothy, Joyce and Sarah, Joyce and Billie, Amber and Dina, Amber and Dorothy, Sal and Marcie, Dina and Charlie have the makings for a good friendship as well. Some of these friendships (like Becky and Joyce, Marcie and Sal) include one party crushing on the other and those feelings not being reciprocated and the friendship being maintained.
I would argue that Alice and Billie were *never actually platonic* in the first place. Her first appearance pretty explicitly indicated their history was romantic/sexual, as much as Billie was in denial about it.
Billie/Ruth doesn’t count because they jumped from being not friends directly into being codependent and perfect for each other.
Agreed, and similarly Becky and Dina went from meeting for the first time to their first kiss to agreeing to date, like, a couple days later. They moved QUICK.
Yeah, to some extend all romance starts with friendship. How long the friendship lasted before it started getting romantic is critical to whether it is an instance of the trope
“perfect for each other”? were we reading the same
comic
They were perfect for each other at the time, but it wasn’t a good thing!
Also agreed regarding Alice and Billie, they definitely have their own stuff going on. Even now their rekindled re-friendship could likely turn into romance.
I get where you’re coming from, and I don’t think Willis is intentionally pushing a trope. But for me, the Joyce and Dorothy pairing just doesn’t feel narratively earned. It feels sudden and more like it’s echoing a broader media pattern—where close female friendships often turn romantic, even if that doesn’t happen as often with male friendships.
I’m not against the pairing existing, but the shift feels more like a trope playing out than a natural progression of their arc. That’s why it’s hitting weird for some of us.
When you say it’s a broad media pattern can you give some examples to help me understand what media you’re going off of? Otherwise, I would just have to say that in the case of Dorothy and Joyce, it’s clear that their level of closeness is meant to be related to their feelings for each other. Much like when a man and a woman are friends, are shown to be very close, and then eventually start dating.
.It’s a fair question. The “close female friendship becomes romantic” pattern has been discussed in media criticism for years. B*t** Media’s article “Not Just Gal Pals” (2015) talks about how queer female intimacy is often reframed as romance, while male friendships stay platonic. It’s not that these stories are bad—but when it happens often, it starts to feel like women’s closeness only matters if it turns romantic. Similarly, there’s also a tired trope where close male-female friendships must lead to dating, which isn’t always the case in real life either.
Also here some other sources i previously posted
The Atlantic (“Why Is Platonic Intimacy So Rare in TV and Film?”), and The Mary Sue (“The Loss of Female Friendship in Popular Media”)
People keep coming at me like I made this up, but I didn’t. This pattern has been discussed in media criticism for years. I’m not pulling it out of nowhere. The fact is, representation in media has advanced enough that this kind of trope is worth talking about. It’s not about opposing progress. It’s about recognizing patterns that deserve thoughtful critique.
I gotta be honest with you, I tried to look up all of these articles and cannot find them.
also these aren’t examples of this happening in media. these are examples of articles about the supposed phenomenon. you haven’t named a single show, movie, or anything where this actually happened. how widespread a trope can it be if the only instance you can name is the one that just happened?
The site/magazine that published the first article shut down a few years ago, so that explains not being able to find it (maybe via wayback machine?). I don’t know about the other ones.
i was reading this on the train and i was like “well, when i get back to a desktop, i can at least find these articles and go through the examples listed in those”
but not only could i not find the articles, i couldn’t find anywhere else mentioning those article titles. you would think someone would’ve at least mentioned them in a tumblr or twitter post or something, but google serves me only a single result for these titles, or meaningful portions of them, in quotes
and it’s. this page. the one we’re on right now.
WEIRD
Thank God it isn’t just me because I really tried, even searching The Atlantic and The Mary Sue with these specific titles and nothing came up.
Wow The Atlantic? Surely a publication that will have nuanced takes on queer people. Definitely not the place that keeps Jesse Singal and his crusade against trans people going.
……Hey, Ursula.
Did you ask ChatGPT for articles about this?
Because it’s weird that you have exact article and publication titles for stuff that definitely doesn’t exist.
The Mary Sue in particular — if you search for “female platonic” — has a lot of articles about liking complicated female friendships (none of which complain or even talk about them becoming romantic), and a few articles on queerbaiting. Nothing that comes even close to your article’s topic or name.
But ChatGPT, programmed to never say “sorry that doesn’t exist” when it could just make up some plausible sounding citations, would absolutely claim otherwise.
Asking for examples isn’t acting like you made it up or coming for you. It’s being confused because whoever asked doesn’t have any examples they can point to and if you’re this fed up with it, they assume you have several you can pull out. They’re just asking for more info, not trying to be aggressive with you.
That said – Having a couple situations where a female friendship turns romantic in a story where there are dozens of close female friendships is not “pushing a trope” imo, it’s just “also representing that very real possibility” which is great! Because friends-to-lovers is a real thing that represents real people and they’re allowed to see themselves in a comic too.
Also let me clarify: my suspicion that it was coming from ChatGPT wasn’t an accusation either, I know plenty of smart folks who mistakenly thought it was good at finding citations.
Also, it IS important to point out when citations/sources aren’t correct. Otherwise people who aren’t inclined to double-check might believe the sources are true, and that’s not fair to them either.
That too!
I wonder if men friendships don’t turn romantic that often because unfortunately queer men still aren’t as accepted in mainstream media as queer women.
I think this is exactly why, whereas for women, there is something of an expectation that women are allowed to be close enough to cuddle without it being necessarily gay. I can’t begin to tell you how many times my guy friend kept asking me if I had kissed my other roommates yet just because we were all women. I was like “dude, they all have boyfriends, we’re not gonna kiss”.
.In response to DoopyBoops’ list of platonic friendships: yes, there are close female friendships in the comic that remain platonic. But Joyce and Dorothy’s stands out because it is by far the most prominent. They’ve had the most screen time, the most emotional investment, and the most narrative focus. That’s why, when their dynamic suddenly shifts to romantic, it feels more jarring and tropey—even if that wasn’t the intention. This isn’t about denying queerness. It’s about how this particular shift lands after years of buildup and reader expectation.
It’s my understanding, and I’m fully prepared to be corrected, that the first several years of Dorothy & Joyce’s relationship was not intended to be setup for their romantic arc. But the author enjoyed their dynamic, and as it got more and more prominent, it started getting mined for jokes because, after all, this is a comedy webcomic.
And at some point they felt that if Dorothy and Joyce didn’t become romantically intertwined at some point, all of those jokes and the closeness of the two would be queerbaiting.
That absolutely wasn’t the only factor in the author deciding to make this relationship happen. But I do think it’s one worth mentioning.
This is exactly correct. They didn’t even mean Joyce to be bi until sometime after 2015, though they acknowledge that many of their attempts to have Joyce clarify that she’s straight were accidentally phrased in really queer ways that just made her look more bi.
So it’s both been there the whole time and was not planned for the first 5 ish years of the comic’s run!
Oh I missed the very last thing you said. That, I dont agree with. Unless I’ve missed it, they’ve never said anything about having wanted to keep it platonic forever but being worried audiences would consider it queerbaiting.
By the time of the “queerbaiting” strip, they’d already decided to make it romantic and wanted to reassure readers with a wink, especially because their original plan had it another 5 years in the future from now.
That’s why I said that it was just one factor, and I highly doubt it was the most important one. But I think they might have felt that especially the jokes people like Walky made about them would come across as a *lot* more meanspirited if they didn’t decide to make them retroactively foreshadowing- if that makes sense?
Oh, gosh, it’s a very reasonable inference, I think? Especially about Walky’s comments becoming retroactively meaner than intended!
But I’d already replied to you with “this is exactly correct” 😆 and then talked about things Willis HAS said explicitly, so not replying to correct myself felt like accidentally implying they’d also expressly said that other thing, you know? And we’ve got enough folks hearing a through-the-grapevine version of Willis’s words so far this week, I didn’t want to contribute to it.
Once again I’ll say it:
Fair dinkum.
Again: I agree, but in my experience, it’s not just female friendships, it’s all friendships, every possible combinations. Shippers gonna ship.
Doopyboop is responding to UrsulaDavina, who did mention female friendship specifically. I’m also not sure fandom is really relevant when talking about tropes in media – I tend to think of that as things the writer can employ (on purpose or playing into by accident).
Joyce stopped resonating for me for a little while. She’s starting to make sense again, but it’s still like she’s been through a timeskip nobody else has. I’m not really invested in her part of the story because of that. Maybe after Joyce and Dorothy break up, and whatever follows, they might be a better match.
Alice’s introduction seemed a little rushed too. Maybe Joyce’s role in that wouldn’t have worked with what’s coming for her.
I’m sorry… the “old trope that every close female relationship becomes romantic.” what.
Like, major gay main characters in media is like, a relativley groundbreaking new thing. Like, not to say it has never happened in the past but the idea of it being a “tired trope” is insane. It’s certainly not a thing that is absurdly common, and even if it had become so (it hasnt) it would be categorically impossible for it to become old.
Unless this is like, some hyper-niche specific thing of like “oh among queer online circles people like to see two girls that like each other and talk about what if they were gay” in which case like. Yeah, no duh. That’s how fans interact with media, by projecting themself onto it, its certainly not a trope.
Sorry if this comes across as perhaps too aggressive, but as someone who grew up watching media only barely start to include sympathetic gay characters. (dumbing of age actually being one of the things that did it at the time!) it feels really bizzarre to see a… backlash against the “trope” of… lesbians being in relationships in a story??
I get where you’re coming from, and I agree that queer repespecially for lesbians is still really important. As someone who’s bi, this comic helped me come to terms with my own identity.
The concern isn’t about queer characters being in relationships. It’s about a pattern in media where close female friendships often get reframed as romantic, while male ones usually stay platonic. That trend can be frustrating, and in this case, the shift from Joyce and Joe to Dorothy just didn’t feel earned to me. JMO It’s not about rejecting the pairing because it’s queer it just didn’t land emotionally from a narrative perspective.
we hear you loud and clear
Joe X Walky 2025!!!! <3
.I know you’re being facetious, but I was trying to make a sincere point about how the story handles emotional arcs and representation. I’ve had a really rough few months, and this storyline hit me hard—especially with the cheating aspect, since I’ve been cheated on before. I’m glad you’re able to joke, but for me, this wasn’t about shipping or snark. I was speaking honestly, and it’s frustrating to have that dismissed
I’m sorry you have to run the gamut through every regular commenter being snide and dismissive of your opinion. There is a lot of that going around.
I generally avoid going to or participating in the comment section much for precisely this reason. It’s pretty toxic.
Josh, this isn’t nitpicking. Ursula claimed there was a widespread “tired trope” of female friendships turning romantic, people asked politely for examples, and they gave us a list of articles that don’t exist, allegedly talking about the prevalence of the trope, while still providing no examples of it happening in any media.
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry to hear this is opening wounds for you. I would genuinely suggest you take a break, from the comments if not from the comic itself, but also I’ve definitely heard a lot of people say that storylines they found uncomfortable were a lot easy to read a year later, once they could get through it all at once.
The daily drip-feed makes something we’re not enjoying worse. And the next few storyline titles (visible in the Archive dropdown menu) sound like it’s going to keep being on this topic for a while yet.
The comic will still be here in a few months, if you want to come back to it.
my apologies 🙁
(coffee then comment NG. coffee THEN comment)
What pattern though? Seriously, multiple people asked that and you still didn’t give any actual examples. Probably because there isn’t that many as as gay relationships in media are, in fact, quite niche and not common at all!
The most you can say is that fans will interpret any female/female friendship as romantic. But not only some fans will interpret any friendship pairing as romantic, male/male ships are overwhelmingly more common in fandom spaces.
A trend I personally find much more frustrating is the one where whenever a queer pairing form later into a work existences hordes of people will come out of the wood work to complain saying it is sudden, unrealistic, ooc or whatever. This happen regardless of if the pairing is really sudden (which is, frankly, not actually a problem) or if it have been built on for a long time. And it is very much happening right now as many people jump to complain about a relationship that have actively being worked on for at least half the duration of the comic, not to mention the accidental subtext present from the very start.
You are right that there are far too few examples in media, because there are far to queer relationships in media to begin with.
To point out a couple though:
Korra+Asami
Poison Ivy + Harley Quinn
Xena + Gabrielle
Adora + Katara
On the other hand there are a host of very close friendships between men that never become romantic
Sherlock+Watson
Bucky+Steve
Frodo+Sam
The only one I can think of is maybe Crowley + Aziraphale
I suspect the reasons for this are:
1. Traditional masculinity norms discourage homosexuality, whereas WLW relationships are fetishized.
2. Traditional masculinity encourages men to hide their emotions, and limit emotional connection, which makes it difficult for friendships to become more intimate. Gender norms are more permissive of women expressing emotions of love and care.
Now compare these 4 examples with other pairs of female friends across media that did, in fact, remain friends. Or contrast with many male/female friend pairs that turn romantic at last minute with no real buildup or pushback from the audience.
That is why I say it is not a real trend. It is a thing that happens sometimes, but not often enough for the massive backlash that accompanies it literally every time.
Could you give me some examples of male friendships that become romantic? Because that seems like the real counterpoint.
I already said there are way too few queer relationships in general, but when it comes to someone realizing they love their same sex friend it is almost exclusively women.
Why would male friendships be coming romantic be a counterpoint? At no point did anyone claim that was common. Someone claimed shipping them was more common than shipping female friendships.
I can’t think one out of the top of my head and I do think that is a problem, I wish that was a thing that happened (most often they show runners run to the line and then say “no homo” at the end). This is, however, not a counter to what I was talking about.
It was said that there is a “trend” o female friendship turning romantic, with the implication the trend is common enough to be a problem, as if you couldn’t find enough shows of regular female/female friendships, and it always turns romantic. My point is that such a trend doesn’t exist and complaining about it is just part of the actual real trend of people trying to find excuses to invalidate the queer relationships that actually form.
1. I think you mean Adora and Catra? I didn’t watch She-Ra, but I’m pretty sure that was her name.
2. Xena and Gabrielle doesn’t belong on this list. Heavy queer subtext for years in the 1990s, but it was never canon until the 2019 continuation comic book. Twenty-four years after the 2001 season finale left them still unconfirmed.
3. Harley-Quinn and Poison Ivy. Really. You think they ever had a platonic friendship? Because the 1997 Batgirl Adventures comic had Harley tell Batgirl that Ivy gave her a special vaccine for Ivy’s poisons so that they can “play” all they want and she’ll never get sick. Batgirl splutters and stumbles through asking Harley if she and Ivy are “like that”, and when Harley understands the question, her response is, “Oh! Like everyone says about you and Supergirl?”
They’re then both distracted and don’t come back to the conversation, allowing some plausible deniability for readers who don’t like the idea and editors who might not have been completely sold on it, but to claim this was a “platonic friendship that eventually turned to romance” is ridiculous, when the two characters had barely interacted before this point, and the 1995 comic where they team up to use special lipstick to make Bruce Wayne follow their commands also had some notable subtext.
3. Finally, Korrasami. I would be more inclined to give this one to you, except that the two girls weren’t even friends until the writers had already started liking the idea of them as a couple, and their trajectory was less “friends to lovers” than it is “romantic rivals (enemies) to friends to lovers”.
So. Like. You’ve got one, maybe two (again, didn’t watch She-Ra) arguable example of the thing you’re complaining about.
But even if all your examples were good ones, that’s two in the 90s, one in the 2010s, one in 2020.
Please tell me you understand that this isn’t a pattern, much less a tired trope.
I would argue that Korrasami counts because they actually did become friends in season 1. It was part of the subversion of the “boy friend seductress” trope, Korra found Asami to be much more fun to hang around than she expected. It was part of the reason I shipped the 2 way back when (though I think Korra x Bolin might be a better pairing if we consider season 1 in isolation).
Season 2 derailed that by terrible Asami (and Mako) writing, but I do think it is fair to say they were a friendship that turn romantic, and a friendship that was initially not intended to turn romantic at that.
(regardless it is clearly not part of a tired trope, I just wanted an excuse to talk Korassami)
That’s fair! I don’t feel like they had a particularly strong friendship until Season 3, when Korra started writing just Asami letters. But, of course, YMMV. 🙂
It was a shame Asami wasn’t more involved in season 3, which probably featured the best writing the show had, but in season 4, their relationship was so strong that even I, a noted resident of Thicko Corner, noticed how close the two were getting lmao.
Being real for a moment: Korrasami made me cry.
People talk about it now like it was cowardly or not enough, and most of them are just too young to realize how precious and rare it was in 2014. In a kids’ show!!!!! (Okay, a show for young teens, but still.)
Now we’ve had Steven Universe and Adventure Time and She-Rah, so it starts to feel more typical, but good grief.
The Legend of Korra is messy, and overall not as strong as its predecessor, but it will always have SUCH a place in my little queer heart. Would that such things had existed when I was a kid, at least in the American media landscape. Instead, it was almost all stuff like “did you know in the Japanese version of Sailor Moon, Zoicite’s a guy? Did you hear about Haruka and Michiru (who hadn’t appeared in the English version and wouldn’t for many more years while DiC tried to avoid dubbing more than the first two seasons)?”
It was a little more common in dramas aimed at older audiences. Star Trek made many notable attempts at explicitly acknowledging queerness, sometimes okay (like Dara’s child, Lal, choosing their own gender), sometimes very clumsily! Johnathan Frakes in particular was very on-board for the idea of Riker being bisexual, and the awkward episode with the alien planet where everyone’s forced to be agender would certainly have been a bit less muddled in its intended messaging if the studio executives had been willing to have the actor of the alien Riker falls in love with be a man, like Frakes wanted.
Trills afforded more of an opportunity, and eventually Jadzia’s character did kiss another woman on screen as part of a doomed love affair with another Trill, and then there’s all the mess with the Mirror Universe and its unfortunate Depraved Bisexual tropage.
Meanwhile, Babylon 5, which gave us about 1.5 years of nice Lady Tension before Andrea Thompson tragically got a better offer and left the show, but thankfully JMS opted to pull the rip cord first, so that we got a bit of a rushed escalation and a canonization of Ivanova’s bisexuality before Talia vanished forever.
(A lot of issues to take with this one! But the intent means everything to me. So does the fact that JMS hoped Andrea would come back and had a better ending in mind tor Talia’s character.)
Xena and Gabrielle were of course very very shippable, and they even kissed, though IIRC there was magic or possession or some other such excuse.
And then there was Willow on Buffy, and I know, Joss Whedon sucks, he’s not getting flowers here, but gaaaawd did Willow mean so much to me.
There’s a couple more in this list that I missed, due to not watching ER or Melrose Place, but you can tell the pickings are slim, because Samantha from Sex and the City and an evil bisexual from Oz made this list of 13 characters “that gave us hope”.
Yeah, Korasami seems very now, when we have Steven Universe, Owl House and what not. But back then it was just not done, specially in kids media, specially when the series protagonist. I remember how surprised I was when I heard. I had dropped the series season 2 because it wasn’t very good, and wasn’t in a hurry to come back even when I heard 3 was better. But learning Korassami was canon made something I needed to check out (nice thing seasons 3 and 4 are good too!)
A comparable feeling was hearing Gundam had a female protagonist with a female love interest. Like, that was much more recent, 2022, but still doesn’t seem something that is allowed to happen with a major traditional franchise. It makes worth checking out for that alone (helps the series is good too!)
Ugh, my math on #2 is blatantly wrong! The article talking about it said 24 years but they obviously meant 24 years from the start of the TV show in the 90s, not 24 years after its season finale.
I would suspect that Odo is most likely referring to the recent animated series. I only watched a little of the first part, so I don’t know exactly how their dynamic played out- that is, how sexually charged their relationship was- but I *do* know that later on in the series, Ivy basically played Joyce to Harley’s Dorothy & Kite-Man’s Joe.
Crap, there was supposed to be a header there where I said I was talking about Harley and Ivy, sorry!
Well, you can’t know what you don’t know. 🙂 But yeah! Harley/Ivy is actually one of the older Canonical Queer Relationships.
I haven’t seen the cartoon either (I’ve heard mixed things, especially around handling Harley’s Jewishness), but given the characters’ history, I imagine the writers were less trying to write “a friendship that suddenly becomes romantic” than “a slow-burn romance”. The difference being whether the “friendship” stage was ever supposed to be completely platonic or not.
That would certainly be a reasonable interpretation of their arc, I’m not in a position to say either way.
But if they *were* only talking about the show, the interpretation of comic Harley & Ivy seems to me to be of background importance to how someone who only watched the show would interpret their characters. As a parallel, I *hated* Malaya in Shortpacked, but here in DoA they’re used much better and I don’t hold their Shortpacked incarnation against them.
Ahhhh pronoun ambiguity, my old nemesis-
In that “But if they *were*” start to my 2nd paragraph, “they” means Odo.
Honestly, I’m completely fine with counting all four pairs as examples, it’s still not a widespread tired trope. My comment is unnecessary!
I was just really shook to see Xena and Gabrielle and Harley and Ivy as examples, for completely opposite reasons, heh.
Fair dinkum to both points.
❤️
But also your points on the TV show are valid, and I could’ve brought up the comic book history without acknowledging that a cartoon I haven’t seen could totally have made them more of a “platonic friends to lovers” situation.
ffff what is that second clause
EVEN IF I STILL WANTED TO BRING UP Harley and Ivy’s comic book history, like as a neutral point of interest, let’s say, I could have done it without FAILING TO acknowledge that a recent cartoon I haven’t seen could’ve done things differently enough to make it a valid example 😛
I have to admit that at this point in the evolution/intersection of popular culture, corporate ownership and fandom, I sometimes find it difficult to untangle what is “real” and what is not. That said, I assure you that in fanfic, all of those male relationships (and more!) have definitely been written as romantic and/or sexual. There is considerable desire, if not a need, for such content.
I would point that all your female exampled come from, at earliest, the 1990s, while your male examples are from, at latest, the 1940s, and in the case of Sherlock and Watson, the 19th century. I think that’s a much more likely explanation for the discrepancy than the gender of the characters.
Thanks i also thought that was a really weird thing to say
The Blanket of SIN!
This update is hillarious!
Them accepting all the problematic things is just perfect. 😛
Like I said. Looney Tunes.
Lotta great expressions going on in this comic.
Also, interesting that Joyce feels like she’s cheating on both of them, but immediately came clean to Dorothy.
Dorothy is “safe” to tell. She’s already sharing in Joyce’s sense of wrongdoing, so Joyce doesn’t feel like she’ll judge her, and she doesn’t have Joe’s trauma about his dad’s infidelity, so she isn’t as terrified of compounding that trauma.
Lessee. Joyce, overburdened by the stress of having done something wrong, is squirrely about it: Check. (See: Dingdong whiteboard bandit)
Dorothy, forced to have a difficult interpersonal interaction, is trying to Good Studier her way out of it (See: Her whole like, life).
Aaaand sarah has a BF she might stay over with. im polishing my opera glasses.
Oh man. I’m just like, tired, you know? Things have been tense in here.
What kind of plant do you think you are? I think I might be like, a dandelion. Rich people would want me to get off their lawn, but I’m more interesting than you expect once you get to know me.
some typa moss or a lichen perhaps
Great choice, LOVE a good lichen. I’d hang out with lichen or moss anytime
Probably somethin’ fruity, like a citrus tree.
I like it, bringing some tanginesss to the party.
Bougainvillea – bright, big, nosy and constantly growing.
Dandelions are excellent! People are just mad because they “spoil” lawns.
I am Bad with plants, so my impulse is to pick a succulent, because they’re about all I think I could take care of. (It doesn’t help that I’ve always had cats.)
I am the type of old oak tree that you look at and JUST know, despite the fact it’s a tree, that it’s grumpy and tired.
Honestly the weight of sin on one’s soul is the weight a weighted blanket is least like, and I’m sure they’ll find that out soon enough.
I hate this. I thought Joyce and Dorothy were better than this. The first kiss I can excuse because it was heat of the moment but now this is intentional cheating.
This isn’t the first time. When Joyce and Dorothy went to the laundry room before going to the protest, they were intending to cheat then too. And they only got stopped because a bunch of other students were already there doing laundry at the time.
That’s my issue. I would have been fine with Joyce and Dorothy getting together without the cheating, either because they broke up with their respective partners, or because they had an honest conversation and their partners were open to polyamory (less likely because this would be narratively boring)…
But I can’t find it cute when it is people acting so selfishly, and whenever it is framed as “cute” either in the strip or by other people I get the icks.
Its like how if Amber stabbing Sal were framed as “cool”. My reaction would be “no, its not cool. That is another person you are hurting” and the same applies to this plotline.
It just doesn’t feel like it tracks with either of them as they currently are. A spur-of-the-moment kiss in a moment of high intensity makes more sense than this strip where they’re basically saying “eh, fuck it, we tried” and going off to very consciously do even more intimate stuff.
Like, Joyce giving Joe a BJ yesterday instead of coming (lol) clean made sense for her character. Today’s choices just feel gross and kind of callous on both their parts.
Aww. Cheating makes me sad. My guess is that Willis has written a whole long arc about these ladies having to deal with the fallout. As we’ve seen, their friends aren’t cool with infidelity.
Also I wanna give my condolences to the commenters who get painful flashbacks from this storyline. Your pain is very real and I see you.
I think I am foreseeing Joe’s permanent departure from the comic. He had been looking to transfer to a college with a culinary program didn’t he? Seems like the perfect way to make a new start away from both a Joyce who cheated on him and his own past mistakes.
This is a thought I’ve had as well. “Everything I want is here?” Well “everything I want” is about to break your heart, big guy. I wouldn’t stick around after that myself.
I can definitely see the narrative beats forming for that. Technically Joe and Joyce have only been dating a week, but Joe is very emotionally invested, a large part of that being due to him trying to prove himself worthy of love.
But we’ve been seeing various women coming in and out of the story line reminding Joe they remember his list and his reputation, and even after the time skip it keeps regularly happening. If he decided to transfer to another school in-between semesters, that would make a lot of sense for his mental health.
I don’t think he has, no. That same strip he said he couldn’t transfer because everything he loves was here. The implication was very much he only considered a culinary program because of Joyce in the first place, so it is unlikely he was actually planning to transfer over it.
Now, it is possible that after the break up he will reflect and conclude that cooking is his passion regardless of Joyce. That could be cool and would tie with a potential theme of trying to improve as a person for himself instead of for someone else. But, from the information we have now, I see no reason to think a transfer is in the cards now.
Yeah, way you lay it out, I can see it happening. I’d be kinda bummed if it did though. I’ve come to really enjoy seeing Joe’s progress towards realizing “commitment does not have to be scary” as well as the deeper understanding that he is neither responsible for, nor doomed to repeat the actions of his father.
Something tells me Dorothy’s never going to get a clean moment for the perfect speech. At best she’ll blank when the time suddenly comes and have to improvise less eloquently than she wanted; at worst, Walky’s gonna find out and break up with her first before she gets the chance to clear her conscience with the neat, pre-planned checklist, and she’ll have to deal with the consequences of having waited too long.
Which makes the latter seem fairly likely, actually. She’d feel absolutely terrible.
I want Walky to be angry with her so fucking bad. It’s been such a long time coming.
I get what you mean, and I kinda agree. Walky has had a lot of nonsense thrown his way, especially from his parents (what was his mom’s name, Linda?) yet he reacts to everything with a shrug and a “c’est la vie” kinda vibe. Sometimes reacting with complete chill isn’t the healthiest response.
It’s apparently much worse on Reddit! So much worse that Maggie went from “ooooof, they need to come clean soon and not cross too many lines” to “PULL THE TRIGGER” specifically to spite the contingent of weird dudebros for whom Joyce was their pure waifu being ruined.
Welp, this was supposed to be a reply to @Fireprincesslily.
Is it just me or are there a lot of comments that boil down to “But Joyce is supposed to be straight”?
Like people don’t discover things about themselves all the time. Hell I knew a lady that didn’t realize she was gay until she was 60. Shit happens.
Agreed, definitely some of those sentiments coming out more since actual confirmation that Joyce isn’t straight. She’s like, 18? When I was 18 I was tentatively identifying as bi-curious even while dating my first girlfriend. I am very much not ‘just bi-curious’ anymore, lmao
When I was 18 I was doing my best to NOT have the big trans feels. And push it deep deep deep down. So what if I constantly complain about men’s fashion choices being basic, and there being no real options, and asking why women get a bunch of different options. Don’t look to hard into it hahahahaha.
Yeah anyway I’mma lady these days. And that’s my point (and your point) is that people figure out more and more about themselves as they are given more ability to do so.
Oh big agree on that front when it comes to gender. When I was 18 I still identified as my birth gender and never really thought about it, whereas nowadays I’ve been experimenting with they/them pronouns and feel really good about it! Congrats on your own journey with gender and I hope it’s only up from here!
Life is a process and especially since Joyce was literally raised in bible belt hell where being gay and trans were NOT choices to be chosen, she’s gonna be learning a lot about herself now that she’s away from that.
I don’t care if someone is straight or gay or queer or whatever. IMHO, you fall in love with a person’s character, not their gender. But I might be alone in that. In any case, I think Joe is good for Joyce, but I don’t like her behaviour towards him. And I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy are good sexual partners for each other, they’re just both very wound?winded? up and are falling back to the one stable friendship they’ve ever had. As for Walky, he’ll probably end up on Garbage Roof again, which would be very sad for him.
Woah, it’s the world’s only pansexual.
Part of my confusion about this whole arc was that, back when Becky kissed Joyce as part of her coming out, I could swear that Willis said something along the lines of “sorry folks, Joyce is extremely straight, this will never happen.”
Plus I’m pretty sure when Becky panics and runs away the alt text said something like “oh god Becky come back I’m so sorry, I’ll make Joyce not straight if it makes you happy” which I read as an extension of that same fact: the author of the comic had declared a character’s sexuality quite explicitly! It felt like it was set in stone, in a way.
Of course, people (including Willis) change, and it’s fine for Joyce’s sexuality to do the same. But it *was* extra jarring to me because Joyce was one of the few people that we had Word Of God about her sexuality…even if it was long ago.
“I’ll make Joyce gay” is what he said, not “I’ll make Joyce not straight”.
Willis never made any statement either way regarding her straightness, and has also been pretty dismissive of people trying to use “but I thought you said sexuality was consistent between universes” against characters like Danny coming out as bi.
Willis literally only said sexuality was consistent because they got an absolute avalanche of people asking if Ethan was “still gay” in DoA.
They’ve never made any promise that any of their previously presumed straight characters would still be straight, they’ve only ever said stuff like, “yes, Danny is retroactively bi in the Walkyverse too.”
Besides, Walkyverse Joyce wasn’t straight either, she was just in deep denial about what Anti-Joyce’s interest in women meant about her.
There’s even one comment where someone says “and she IS straight… mostly” which I cracked up at. Baby, this girl is not straight. People are holding onto “maybe it’s ONLY for Dorothy” or “Maybe she’s just into women romantically but she still needs a penis in her life” like bisexual women don’t exist… it’s honestly kinda sad to watch it happen.
Mostly annoying though. No one should be digging their fingernails in against Joyce being into women while she’s actively being into a woman, it’s not a good look.
I read that comment and my jaw hit the floor. Like what do you mean “And she IS straight” like yuck and gross.
If they keep saying it firmly enough maybe they’ll get this one wish lmao. Probably not, though.
That one in particular, oof. “I’m mostly straight” is only something you can really say about yourself, and even then you’re going to sound really homophobic unless there’s a halfway decent reason.
(I used to say it, right after my partner transitioned to enby and it was pointed out to me by several queer friends that this made me some kind of queer. Of late I’ve more or less decided that I just like what I like as no labels seem to really fit.)
There are, and I can’t help but feel that they have not been reading the comic very carefully.
It’s apparently much worse on Reddit (I assume)! So much worse that Maggie went from “ooooof, they need to come clean soon and not cross too many lines” to “PULL THE TRIGGER” specifically to spite the contingent of weird dudebros for whom Joyce was their pure waifu being ruined.
I miss Mike. He’d have a blast in all of this.
Either that or it’d be torture for him. Too many options, and every time there’s clearly a best one, they do something else that renders it outdated.
Welp we’ve crossed the line from this is making me anxious to I’m a happy camper. I had the “Oh, we’re CHEATING cheating” thought and then I was on board again. I honestly could not tell you why this is so.
Maybe ambiguity bothers you more than anything else?
I guess ambiguity leaves a lot more scope for debate, too, and that is stressful.
Is this what you really want, Joyce? An overbearing maternal vulture who writes your breakup speeches for you? At least Joe sees you as an adult with value, not a project to be completed.
Melodramatic much?
It’s too late! Joyce has been babygirl’d, and it’s all Dorothy’s fault!
Hey they might be into age play we don’t know they just starting this relationship.
That’s been their dynamic at least since after the kidnapping. It’s wrapped up in Dorothy’s trauma response / PTSD after the surprise Faz freed Blaine and her control of the situation started to unravel. (Considering her nightmares, and likening Joyce walking away with Joe to the van driving away.)
https://www.dumbingofage.com/appointment-2/
Okay I admit I initially read Dorothy as writing speeches for Joyce, because it would mirror the “this is how they are when they’re with her” scene we had with Joe a couple days ago.
I still stand by my general point that Dorothy mommies Joyce while Joe helps her build herself up.
I expect it’s going to take some time, but that it will cause friction again.
she’s drafting them as options for Walky
like I’m not into the ship or situation either but this is a little silly
This is what happens when you spill coffee all over the kitchen instead of drinking it before commenting.
Learn from my mistakes!
Well at least there’s been an admission of cheating
To quote the Simpsons
“Dig up stupid!”
This is starting to remind me the reddit stories I’ve been listening to. At least Joe and Walky don’t have to divorce them.
This is going to end up with a photo of them making out at the protest going viral, isn’t it?
“Just promise me you’ll brush your teeth and gargle three gallons of mouthwash before you put your mouth on my downstairs fancy place so I don’t get any Joe cooties!”
“Downstairs Fancy Place”
What a delight, tyvm.
Sadly, I don’t think Dorothy’s much for euphemisms 😆
I feel like a lot of people have a parasocial relationship with the characters of this comic strip.
Ok now that this very long and controversial arc is essentially almost over i might as well share my take on #cheatgate. Comments have trending very mixed-to-negative for a hot minute (some valid, some not, it’s not my prerogative to say who’s right or wrong and more importantly I don’t care!* ) and I have my own very serious beefs w/. this storyline, but I wanted to go against the grain and say that this cheating shit rules. It fucking rules**. I love getting invested into a fictional relationship and having it end with ugly breakups and heartbreak. I’ve been excited for the inevitable pairing of Dorothy and Joyce, and I’ve been excited for the equally inevitable breakup of Joe and Joyce***, but I never ONCE thought both would happen at the same time via an insane spur of the moment affair of passion. I thought I had the next few major storylines roughly figured out and I’m adoring the absolute fucking curveball this has been.
I’m genuinely excited to see Joe have to re-examine his hangups around intimacy and relationships now that he can no longer bury it under the guise of being the perfect boyfriend™️, I’m excited to see Dorothy now have to actively deal with the ramifications of her post-timeskip fugue state now that she’s figured out what her feelings for Joyce really were all along, i’m excited to see the chaotic unfurling that is Joyce going full throttle on examining her relationship to sex and sexually in ways that will hurt people she cares about, and i’m excited to see what the long term effects and consequences of all of this is going to look like.
So uh. Yeah! Thank you.
*Just wanna make it clear that if you do care about spending time in the comments talking in-depth about your feelings and predictions, that’s 100% more than fine, I just know it’s not for me! I’m at my happiest when i’m at least semi-detached from fandom and fandom spaces, and with few exceptions, that usually includes ignoring takes and comments that i disagree with and moving on instead of engaging in gentle debate.
**I also know my tolerance for characters doing horrible/messy things and being horrible/messy people is really high, and that’s not the case for everyone. If you’re not having fun with this storyline or you’re genuinely upset that a character you like is going to be hurt or you find the cheating stuff upsetting or you’re just straight up bummed out, then i’m truly sorry about that. You’re allowed to be upset and i hope this doesn’t come off as some asshole trying to prove you wrong.
*** I also wanna make it clear that even though it was never on an OTP level, I liked JoJo !! A lot !! I thought it was very cute and fun and if there’s one thing I will miss during the fallout is the very solid underlying friendship between the two, but i’ve always operated under the concept that it was going to end with them breaking up, even if I didn’t expect it to happen like this at all.
lmao, these knuckleheads. Not Joyce being squirrely/reflexively lying because she’s afraid to confront her own behavior, or Dot getting so up in her own head that she’s planning a speech rather than a conversation. Who could have foreseen that their major character flaws would influence their responses to a stressful situation of their own making.
(In b4 someone crawls up my ass about The Infidelity: yes I have been cheated on, a couple of times, and tbh I still don’t think this is that big a deal. It’s well shy of the least messy cheating scandal that occurred in my collegiate social circles, and I have personally forgiven people for doing stupider things. They’ll probably be laying awake cringing about this in a couple of years, but I don’t really think it’s permanently personality-warping.)
The longer this runs, the less I like Dorothy. She seems very possessive and controlling, and more and more like a hypocrite.
I don’t remember her major (PolSci?) but she should become a lawyer. The moral bankruptcy will serve her well.
It’s odd, I keep hearing about how Dorothy is the morally bankrupt one, but whenever I look at these strips, it usually reads as Joyce being the bad actor for me. I’ve been seeing hesitation with Dorothy the whole way and Joyce just endlessly tempting against it. Just find it interesting how we walked away with two completely different takes.
Agree, you should read my previous comment about how Joyce is being the devil on Dorothy’s shoulder while Dorothy keeps trying to do the right thing
Relevant comic: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/comfortingbodycontact/
Genuine question, you don’t have to answer if you don’t feel like it:
Is the possessiveness and controllingness being displayed in the current strip, or is it more of a vibe you get overall?
Dorothy dictated the ”we need to talk to our boyfriends”, and her first word when Joyce returns is ”did you break up with him”. At least in the comic that decision/agreement was not said outloud. I’m left thinking Dorothy assumes that it goes without saying that Joyce left to break up with Joe to be hers alons.
Dorothy has always been very quick to take over her friends lives. Now she seems to want Dorothy as her own, and be very possessive.
So Li, I guess both.
But they DO need to talk to their boyfriends. And asking if Joe and Joyce broke up is important to know whether Joyce is free for a relationship yet or not.
I think, whether Dorothy expected it or not, that’s still a reasonable question when someone comes back from telling their boyfriend they cheated.
I do agree that she has an issue with taking over her friends’ problems and trying to force-solve them, I just don’t think those are particularly good examples because you’re sort of infusing them with a lot of tone that is a personal read rather than a universal one, I think.
Damn, using the blanket your partner just gave you with the person you’re cheating on them with is a new low, even for how this started.
Just talk together, all 4 of you (Joyce, Dorothy, Joe, Walky.
Man, I haven’t felt contempt for protagonists like this in a while.
To be clear, while I’m not gonna hold up this chapter as my favorite anytime soon, the past few days of strips have brought it back to “DoA’s usual standard” which is pretty high. Me feeling contempt for these two is good writing.
But good lord, my expectations for their behavior were low and they just limboed right under that bar.
Reminds me of a quote I heard recently: “The bar was already on the ground, but it seems you’ve brought a shovel.”
If you want to up the ante even more, a version I heard was “the bar is so low it was a tripping g hazard in Hell, but look at you, limbo dancing with the Devil.”
All this yapping in public areas and not a single person who the conversation might be important to has walked by to overhear this yet… somehow.
It’s poetic license until the author decides to let belief stop hanging in the middle of the air because it’d be funnier for the more realistic thing to happen.
While I’m not exactly defending their actions, I will remind everyone that Joyce and Dorothy are *college freshman.* Anyone who can say they made no bad decisions at that time is either lying or terminally dull.
I can certainly say that making THIS level of bad romantic/sexual decisions usually ended up with “hey, why are we the only two people left in our friend group and everyone else treats us like plague carriers”, at least back in my dorm in 1999-2000.
And we also literally had a smoochy chart that was an ouroboros that one of the ladies kept up to date, it wasn’t like we were prudes or non-horny.
Cheating goes beyond normal “college freshman”-level mistakes. All the people I know who cheated in college, it ruined their entire friend group.
As well it should, IMO
A lot of people are negative about it not because they ‘cant separate the fictional from the real’. It is because being cheated on is a very common traumatic experience. It isn’t complicated. If you were in a car crash you’d find Jennifer’s story less desirable to read about depending on how bad the crash was as a less polarizing example.
People have trigger warnings for tons of things. That isn’t my problem with it. Never been cheated on. But cheating is high up on the list of ‘people might find this squick’ writing because many people tend to be vulnerable and trusting with their partners and cheating violates that in a way that triggers a bunch of anthropologically relevant reactions in the noggin.
That’s not my actual problem with this storyline, but this whole ‘separating reality from fiction line’ comes up frequently enough in discussions about that story line and it seems unempathetic and unkind to me. You are allowed to have negative reactions to fictional storylines that cause you to relive past trauma.
My actual problem? God cheating is boring. The way people act when they avoid getting caught with something immoral is one of the most boring played out tropes in all of fiction. I’m a sitcom hater for this same reason. Snoresville central. It’s not fun. I hate having to wait for two idiots to painfully come to the conclusion to ‘actually communicate with their partners’. I hate that ‘breaking up’ is the only thing being discussed here. I hate will they won’t theys with a BURNING FUCKING PASSION and you know what? This is the SAME THING as the previous will they won’t they of this relationship but now I think they are slowly making ‘terrible people’ type decisions to the point where it’d be accurate to eventually describe them as terrible people instead. ‘Yay’.
I get that this is ‘Willis Biographical’ but sometimes your biography sucks David. It reads like a damn sitcom and you are generally ‘better than that’. Where is the hot messy poly shit and gay make outs. The bad decisions to gay make outs ratio is too damn low. I think you need other characters being extra gay just to make up for it. I didn’t click sicko in the poll just to be met with this tamed tried and tested bullshit ‘i cant break up with them’ cheating story line.
did we see a huge wave of “how DARE willis try to make us sympathize with billie after she crashed her car” stuff
i actually have seen a bunch of people whinging about that, because i made the mistake of checking out the DOA reddit when the Jennifer/Alice reunification stuff was going on during the previous storyline. more than one piece of “oh my god how dare Joyce try and guilt Alice into forgiving Jennifer for almost killing her” sentiment on there, which was really something to behold. the amount of people who are just, unwilling to read this comic and interpret its narrative in good faith is baffling to me???
Yeah, I checked the subreddit a couple of times recently and for such a small amount of comments it is impressive how many of them seem to deliberately trying to read the comic in bad faith.
(btw, I accidentally reported your comment, sorry about that)
They’re a buncha normal ones, alright.
Yeah the report button really needs an “Are you sure?” confirmation.
I’m with you about this plot getting boring. Cheating storylines so frequently fall into the same tired cliches, and it’s rare for anything the characters do to feel relatable or character-driven. They all just kinda follow the same general script until somehow it all blows up in their faces, and we have to slog through this entire song and dance until we get there. It turns a vibrant cast of characters into a bunch of generic archetypes.
This ship is quickly devolving into a garbage scow. Let’s tally up a quick sec from the last two strips alone:
Joyce suddenly being hit with guilt, gives her first round of sloppy toppy to Joe, AFTER he gifts her a blanket he hopes will help her think of being smooshed by him. In her colors no less.
Dorothy hasn’t confessed to Walky either as she can’t think up a speech that’s emotional enough? Then with Joes gift in hand and his dong still fresh on her lips/mouth, the two decide to spend the night together under said blanket.
Jeez. Joe really is just an afterthought to them. Not to mention Walky.
i didn’t say the joyce/dorothy should haul garbage, i said it should be hauled away AS garbage
Yes, this is really bad, and sad.
Lmao. Great page. Seems like we’re leaving some room for another curveball to enter the situation for now. I’m wondering what, or who, it will be.
Daisy got a photo of them and it’ll be plastered all over the school paper tomorrow
And Walky finds Dorothy’s break up speech some time later when looking for paper to doodle on.
I’d just like one of the curveballs to hit, this whole storyline has been like that gif of the speeding truck ABOUT to crash into the bollard.
God, it really is, isn’t it?
Dorothy writing speeches to break up with Walky is just so emblematic of some of her worst character flaws – performatively acting out the steps of contrition and empathy for his feelings, but in reality preparing to talk at him without any consideration that he might want to actually have a conversation, that he might have substantive thoughts of his own on the matter. Meanwhile she’s preparing to sleep over with Joyce, knowing full well she is not capable of keeping her hands off of her. She has always taken Walky for granted. I really want that to be addressed.
Is it automatically a character flaw to try to prepare for awkward conversations?
“Speeches” imply talking at someone without giving them a chance to respond. It is a flaw because I recognize it as something I used to do in order to avoid having to actually engage in difficult conversations. It is a habit I have since rectified because it’s condescending and unfair to the other person.
I’m not so sure it always has to be a flaw. For me, I sometimes practice what I am going to say beforehand so that I can get the information out as clearly and unambiguous as possible. It helps avoid wasting time trying to elaborate yourself out of a quagmire. I also sort of prep before starting a convo as a way to counteract the mild stutter I have. For me it’s less performative and more “how can I accurately convey the information that is in my head to the outside?”
By the way, good on you for breaking yourself of a bad habit. That’s never an easy thing to do, and that’s assuming a person even had the honesty and self awareness to admit there was room for improvement. Way too often folks double down, so I think it’s worth celebrating when someone actually works towards bettering themselves and resolving to be kinder to their fellow humans.
Practicing how you’re going to open a difficult conversation and how you might respond to likely points and questions is fine, that’s good, plenty of people do that and how it can help. But that’s a very different kettle of fish to practicing a speech that you can just dump on the other person and expect that to do all the work for you.
I think you are taking the word speach a little too literally here.
Maybe, but I also think it would certainly be in keeping with Dorothy’s character, particularly in her current frayed state.
I think it’s absolutely possible that Dorothy is imagining herself giving a literal speech. I also think she might be writing more of a… choose-your-own-adventure sort of script.
Where it’s less “I’m going to talk for five minutes uninterrupted” than a lot of frantic guessing about what Walky is going to say if she says xyz, and how she should respond in case he does.
I also imagine Dorothy is currently running through how her last two breakups (Danny and Walky) went, and trying to learn from her past mistakes. Trying to come up with the perfect words that will let Walky down as gently as possible while also being sure that he knows he’s wonderful and did nothing wrong and that anyone would be lucky to have him…
For sure still trying to control something that she can’t reasonably expect to control — she needs to leave Walky room to be both mad at her and hurt — but also, like, I think anxiety and the likely undiagnosed autism are also playing a role.
Idk, I feel like the odd one out with Walky’s relationships? I absolutely want to see him self-actualize. I want to see him stop blaming himself for everything with regards to Dorothy/Amber/Lucy.
But prior to this mess, I also don’t think the girls deserve much blame for the endings of their relationships, either. (Asterisk on Amber, the physical element there was not okay.)
I think Dorothy really loved Walky, and was genuinely afraid when her grades started to suffer, and then she fumbled, repeatedly, over ending things with him, but she did all of it from a place of genuine love and heartbreak.
I think Amber at least really liked Walky, but that they were both grieving for Mike separately instead of together, and in fundamentally incompatible ways. I think shoving him was Obviously Not Okay, but if she’d just broken up with him instead of shoving him first and potentially really hurting him, I don’t think it would have been unfair. Neither of them wanted to be around the other’s form of grief, and that’s not something either of them were doing to the other.
Finally, Lucy: it’s understandable that Walky didn’t feel up to standing up to his racist parents for her, and he couldn’t make himself feel something for her that he didn’t, but also she did genuinely mishear him, and she had the right to not want to stick around with someone who couldn’t stand up to his racist parents for her.
(This is something I feel like is missing from negative Lucy analyses, the part where yes, obviously Walky’s parents’ racism hurts him, but she was a direct target of it. It’s not like Amber dumped Walky for not being able to stand up to his racist parents. Lucy had every right to decide that their relationship, such as it was, wasn’t worth the pain of having to see more of Walky’s parents, or the embarrassment of him not loving her as much as she loved him, or even just him continuing to make pained faces every time she mentioned her faith for the rest of their lives.
They didn’t break up over just one of those things, it was all of it coming to a head.)
Now, THIS time around, yes, Dorothy went to Walky for a distraction. I do think he’s well-aware of that, and that he’s honestly unlikely to be especially surprised that getting back together with him might have just been something Dorothy did in an attempt to further ignore her feelings for Joyce.
But good GRIEF do I hope Walky walks away from this feeling better about himself, with his image of Dorothy as someone better than him that he doesn’t deserve thoroughly punctured.
Good speech Li, bravo
I think I know what you mean by her “performative contrition”. When she’s dumped Danny and Walky, he has sort of a “I’m breaking up with you for your benefit” vibe. And that kind of feels worse than just “this isn’t working for me”. All this preparing is for not letting Walky be angry or whatever else reactions he would have.
“It would be suspicious if we stopped being gay at each other. So we should continue.”
“Okay, how about I put my mouth on your hoohaw while you read me the speeches you’ve prepared?”
Honestly, I feel bad for Joe. Like, yes, congrats to them, but Joe doesn’t deserve this. He has grown so much as a character and is really TRYING here. And Joyce, who he is honestly it seems a little bit in love with, is going to break his heart and then twist the knife in by immediately dating his friend from high school. I know I’d be SUPER hurt and honestly, I can see this being the thing that pushes him back to who is was before, because why try when it will never matter, right?
I personally think they should BOTH tell their respective partners what happened, sit down as each couple, and decide what is going to happen. Because this is between the couple at this point. Joyce and Dorothy are now cheaters, and that is a label that sticks…forever. I think Joe deserves better, and Walky deserves at least an explanation.
I also think that if Joe, Joyce, and Dorothy sat down and talked about this like the adults they keep claiming they are, Joe might even be ok with them seeing each other and staying with Joyce. I see him having fewer issues with being poly if it is 1. Someone he knows and trusts (Dorothy), and yes 2. Dorothy being a woman vs a man. (I said he was better, not perfect, and either way, his feelings are valid.)
Joe might have been okay with being poly… but I doubt he is okay with cheating. If he just passes over that then it is because his self-esteem is so low that he thinks he deserves it, and because he is so in love with Joyce that he is afraid of losing her.
Going into a poly because of self-loathing and desperation is not a recipe for success.
I would be amused, however, to see the trash fire that comes out of it.
Going to a Poly relationship because your GF started it out *before* talking with you is excessively sad.
I was on their side during the protest when everything was happening too quickly to handle correctly, but girlsssssssss. You are currently creating the bad timeline.
What you don’t understand is, the Good Timeline requires this exact level of shitfuckery from the both of them. It’s like in that The Avengers movie, they had to give Thanos the Chaos Emerald so he could delete everyone, or they wouldn’t be able to kill off Robert Downey Jr. in the sequel.
Honestly, for me, never been persuaded by the whole “so caught up with emotions that it excuses my behavior” line. It is used to excuse a lot of people being shitty.
Your emotions are part of you. Your actions are your own. If your emotions lead you to choose to do shitty things, that is you being shitty.
And yeah, that happens. People make mistakes. But the problem with going “the emotions made you do it” is then you have no reason not to make the same mistake in the future.
Not saying your side is bad, just sharing my own perspective.
A good point. We all feel emotions, and there is little, if anything, we can do to stop those feelings from entering our noggin, but we can choose how to respond to them.
On the other hand, this facet of emotional intelligence is something that usually develops out of practice and experience. I can only speak for myself, but I know that certainly did not have that amount of maturity at 19. This definitely feels like a situation that will teach them such essential life skills. As the saying goes, “good decisions come from experience, and experience? Well, that comes from bad decisions.”
Let’s do a little relationship mapping for other characters who will care about the cheating.
1. Amber: Before Walky got back together with Dorothy, and before Lucy dumped him, he was hanging out with Amber again to play video games. Later Walky apologized to amber about Halloween, and Amber said they shouldn’t be together. Probably nothing there, but it is possible Amber will change her mind. Amber trusted Dorothy with Amazigirl, it is possible Amber will feel like she chose a bad person to trust.
2. Billy: Highest potential to not care. Probably the friend Joyce will fall back on if rejected by other people.
3. Becky: Could easily be super hurt, not by the cheating, but because it means Joyce rejected her not because Joyce was only attracted to men. Becky can’t be too noticeably hurt though, because that would imply that she still wishes she had dated Joyce, which could be hurtful to Dina. Beyond that, I doubt Becky is cool with the whole cheating thing.
4. Sarah: Sarah is in Joyces corner and “will always forgive you every time”. She will likely forgive Joyce, but also be the one to call her out on being super, super shitty to Joe.
5. Sal: Sal probably wouldn’t care that much by herself, except probably thinking the cheating was a shitty thing to do. But Sal is brother to Walky and dating Danny (who is Joe’s good friend and roommate), but probably more as a supportive partner/sibling than with personal drive.
6. Dina: Doesn’t like Joyce that much to begin with. Only get’s roped in because of Becky potentially being hurt, and how Becky being resentful of Joyce could hurt Dina.
7. Ruth: Wouldn’t care. Not her problem. Maybe will give some solid advice if Joyce/Dorothy spiral/ask for it.
8. Danny: His ex cheating with his best friend’s girlfriend. He has already said it’s morally bankrupt. I doubt he is going to want much to do with either of them after this.
9. Ethan: Hasn’t been close with Joyce in a while. I doubt the cheating will change that. He might have been far enough removed to be a friend if Joyce reached out… but Billy is a closer option and I can’t imagine Asher being thrilled to hang out with Billy.
Dina is Joe’s friend. She likes and cares about them and doesn’t like Joyce very much. She’ll be in Joe’s corner.
Good point! I forgot about that connection.
And the more Dina is mad at Joyce separately the more reason Becky will have to distance herself from Joyce. It’s easier to say “I am mad at you for cheating on my partner’s friend” than it is to say “I am mad that you chose Dorothy and not me” especially when already in a relationship.
I feel like this should be part of the wiki, updated at least once a month. There should also be a relationship diagram that’s animated to show changes over time. Nerd Team, Assemble!
i feel like at least Dorothy had enough sexual experience to know that two horny-for-each-other people never just *sleep* at a sleepover………
Hey, wait a fuckin’ minute. Panel 2. Bottom speech bubble. Zoom and enhance.
“Trying to hit all the emotional quadrants”
“Quadrants”
♥️♦️
♣️♠️
Dorothy’s over here cookin’ with GASOLINE and nobody’s noticed until right now.
… damn you for making me remember this.
Oh bother, I’ve caught the wrong catchphrase.
Thank you for making the comment I came down here to make.
principia discordia
Joyce converted to Discordianism. This explains all of her actions.
off: fucking SICKOS, they are crashing this website again!!
I LOVE CHEATING
Me when I’m reading PlayStation Secret Codes 4, published by Bradygames
Man, I don’t know… I like Joyce/Dorothy fine in itself, but to get together in such an ugly way, sneaking around behind their established SOs’ backs, it reminds me of how Jacob told Joyce he can’t get into a relationship starting off on a basis of deceit. And he was right for that. It’s not the same circumstance exactly, but the start of the relationship springing out of lying to people close to you? That’s here too.
Not gonna lie, I miss Billie/Ruth’s toxic gay shenanigans. At least they had the juicy high entertainment value. Dorothy and Joyce are just being kinda shitty, cowardly, AND dull.
Granted, yes, I know “the comic is not titled SMARTing of Age” lol. Would be pretty boring if everyone, including characters we liked, only made decisions we could all agree with and approve of.
Billie/Ruth was crazy, toxic and fun. Joyce/Dorothy is boring, toxic and sad.
Just IMO of course.
OK, let’s get down to the nuts and bolts. Is parallel play cheating?
It depends on who you ask, what their boundaries are, and what they feel about certain levels of relationships.
I imagine the overwhelmingly common answer would be “yes” though.
For people in the highly-popular 1v1 server, the answer is usually “yes”.
For others, it becomes much more situational, and we can’t guarantee anything one way or another.
Hope not, multi-track drifting is all the rage these days.
Aaaand we’re right back at the name of this webcomic.
I don’t like where the girls are taking this. Neither Joe nor Walky deserves this.
The irony being that Dorothy will still look down at Joe even as she’s doing this.
Reading the comments, squaring them with what I’ve seen actually happen in the strip… considering the relationships… carry the two… okay, I’ve got it. This situation can only be resolved if Faz gives Booster a bag of pizza rolls.
Hey now, remember what your math teacher always said; you gotta show your work!
It’s too bad Faz is off in the wilderness, eating live salmon.
Dumbing of Age, Book 16: This Blanket is Like The Weight of Sin on my Soul.
Honestly? Pretty great title suggestion. It can serve as a bookends to the “hell isn’t real” volume.
I feel like even if the direct text of the story is calling them out… and on multiple points, I get this weird sense that it STILL wants us to not view them harshly for all of this. Which I can’t fully explain why though.
Because they’re the protagonists.
You’re both bi, and you’ve only kissed.
This doesn’t HAVE to be an either-or thing or a cheating thing. Sit down, chat with it like adults, and maybe consider poly.
I don’t think bryan’s meet-and-greet for questioning individuals could’ve prevented this
He tried though. Bless him, he tried.
Have you seen the new character art for Bryan? Hot damn.
“momentum of permission” ah, a phrase I like. It pleased me to see it used in this context 😀 😄 🙂 😅 😊
This is a follow-up to something I said earlier in another comment which unfortunately became a tangled mess. I’m posting this for clarity for those who asked me to respond earlier and for anyone else stumbling on this who is genuinely interested. If you are looking for more reading material or context, check the comments above.
TL;DR:
Apologies. I misunderstood how prominent a certain literary trope was and posted a comment about it. I had a meltdown because my life is currently falling apart and used AI to help organize my thoughts. I don’t care to debate the ethics of AI—it just helps me get thoughts down clearly when I’m overwhelmed. That doesn’t make my point invalid, just poorly communicated. Here’s the full context for anyone who actually cares.
I had a meltdown. Not just because of the comic, but because my life is in the worst state it’s ever been. I lost my job six months ago. I’ve been searching nonstop and still can’t find work. I lost my healthcare. I don’t qualify for Medicaid. I can’t afford a subsidized plan. I’ve had to choose between food, shelter, or medication. I’ve been rationing my antidepressants and ADHD meds. That’s where I’m at.
So when I saw something in Dumbing of Age that hit a nerve, I commented. Normally, I wouldn’t have. But it resonated with stuff I’d read years ago about a pattern in queer media where close female friendships get rewritten as romantic relationships to add “meaning” or fanservice. I remembered that because it stood out, and when I tried to look it up again, I got cited links that didn’t work. That made me look like an idiot, and commenters jumped on it.
I know I sounded angry and defensive. That’s because I was. But not just about the comic. I’m angry about how broken everything feels. About how every time I try to express something personal online, I get dogpiled or told I’m wrong for feeling how I feel. I know this is a comic. I know it’s fiction. But this comic meant something to me. It helped me understand myself, and now it’s doing something I really don’t like—and I said so.
I know I got things wrong. I’m not a media scholar. I’m not a writer. I’m not trying to speak with authority. I was trying to talk about something that hit me in a raw way at a really bad time. That’s it.
If you don’t get that or want to write it off, that’s fine. But please don’t act like I’m making things up or trying to score points. I’m not. I was venting about something that hurt me, and it got out of hand.
If this still somehow offends you, I don’t know what to say other than: I’m still going to comment, I’m still going to read the comic, and I’m still allowed to be upset about something that matters to me.
Oh well that’s a fucked situation
Id say comments are secondary here
Meltdowns are tough cause you gotta let the brain go through some of the bad feelings to get to the other side
Sending healing energy
it makes your point invalid if you have to lie to make it. like it’s just a made-up issue without any connection to real world problems. the world is not forcing female friends to turn gay at such a disproportionate rate as to become problematic, you just don’t like this individual story for doing it. like sorry your comfort characters are acting too human and making too many mistakes, but saying things like “fiction matters more than reality” and lying about reality because a robot told you to isnt healthy or condusive to yours or anyone else’s mental health. i would suggest logging off and trying to find comfort in a less divisive work for a while, because continuing to be in this space acting the way you are and have been acting will not help you.
Either you didn’t read the original comment thread or, if you did, then your reply’s even more insulting. I didn’t lie. I didn’t make anything up. I mentioned a trope I’d seen talked about before — yeah maybe it’s not a major thing, but it has been discussed in media critique. I admitted I didn’t have the full context. So I went back, looked into it more, and said I’d made a mistake. That’s a hell of a lot more honest than whatever smug crap you’re doing here.
You didn’t even try to engage with the actual point or show a shred of good faith. Instead, you jumped straight to calling me a liar and mocking the idea that fiction could actually matter to someone. You’re exactly the kind of condescending asshole I was bending over backwards to explain myself to — the kind who demands sources in a comic thread but ignores tone, context, and the fact that people are allowed to feel things.
So no — you don’t get to call me dishonest or act like I’m delusional for caring about a piece of media that means something to me. Fuck you for trying to twist that into some kind of personal flaw.
As one of the “condescending assholes” you were trying to explain yourself to, just wanna make it clear I didn’t demand sources to mock your feelings.
girl you generated fake articles to support your nonsense theory about queerness smothering friendship or whatever. LOG OFF!!!!!!!!
Don’t ask “AI” for citations, it will just lie to you. Not only about this, but about everything.
I’m sorry you had a meltdown. I really genuinely don’t think continuing to read this comic and engage with the comments is healthy for you when it’s actively triggering you and likely will continue to for a while.
(The next two storylines are “Not-So-Smooth Criminals” and “I’m the Problem, It’s Me”.)
That’s not me trying to shut down discussion or tell you you aren’t allowed to not like how the storyline is going, it’s just me saying “I don’t think being further triggered sounds like a good time, if I were you I would not.”
you can pretend this is concern but it reads like condescension. like yeah i got frustrated, but what actually upset me wasn’t the comic — it was smug comments like this acting like you’re being helpful while writing me off as too “triggered” to participate. i already clarified where i was coming from, owned up to overstating a point, and moved on. your reply didn’t engage with any of that. it just acts like i’m unstable and should leave for my own good.
That “Reading everything as an attack” thing isn’t really helping your case.
“I had a meltdown. Not just because of the comic, but because my life is in the worst state it’s ever been.”
“I’m angry about how broken everything feels. About how every time I try to express something personal online, I get dogpiled or told I’m wrong for feeling how I feel.”
“I was trying to talk about something that hit me in a raw way at a really bad time.”
I’m not being “smug”. I’m not “writing you off”. I am responding to the words you yourself wrote with basic concern as a fellow human being.
Ok fair enough sorry about that.
It’s okay.
I’m also really sorry about everything else going on in your life. I’m also in the “laid off, haven’t been able to get a job” camp. I feel fortunate to be in a safe living situation with people who can support me, and to be in a state that’s actively fighting to keep healthcare accessible to low or no-income people. It’s still scary! The whole world seems really scary.
This comic isn’t currently upsetting me, but that’s not because I’m “stronger” than you, it’s because these don’t happen to be my hot buttons. One person’s zany hijinx is another person’s painful reminder, even if that reminder doesn’t rise to the level of an actual trigger.
Also I get why “stop reading then” sounds like concern-trolling. It’s really not! A lot of folks have taken breaks from the comic itself and come back happier once they no longer had the specific upsetting situation being drip-fed to them by the daily schedule. A quick binge can be a lot easier to get though!
And while I haven’t ever taken a break from the comic itself, I’ve taken frequent breaks from the comments, because yeah. Emotions run high.
Again, the titles of the next 2-3 storylines all sound like they’re going to continue being not only messy, but further explorations of cheating. It wouldn’t be you being “weak” or “unstable” to not want to read so much more of this topic right now.
I honestly have to agree with otgers saying i think it would be better for your mental health to get away from the comic and comments for a while, at least until you find yourself in a more stable and less likely to have a breakdown.
Firstly, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that and I hope your situation improves.
But I also never thought you were being dishonest- that much was obvious from your words.
And in general, I think that there’s an explanation for why *multiple* folks have expressed the same sentiment that you have. I think it has more to do with people extrapolating their own experiences. If for whatever reason, including random chance, someone consumes a lot of media that happens to feature this relationship arc, it’s really easy for their brains to extrapolate and think it applies more universally than it does.
I appreciate you admitting you used AI to express yourself. When I was unable to find the articles, my suspicion was that you had used AI, but I didn’t want to accuse you of that based off a hunch. I am sorry for the situation of your life currently, that sounds like a very stressful time. I hope things improve. You can admit that you just don’t like the current storyline, but I have to say that if your argument’s evidence is AI confirmed articles that don’t exist anymore… well, you are making things up. You should double check these things exist before you comment with them and insist people read them to understand you.
I also want to explain why some people are defensive about such a point as “female friendships always become romantic” and it’s that that is a common criticism of queer media and characters. People get upset that characters “can’t just be friends, they have to be gay” when often such tropes exist because people like friends to lovers, and gay people exist. I’m ace, I do wish there was more media about qprs and tight friendships but people love romance. Romance and sex sells! I may be ace and sex repulsed, but many people very much aren’t and I can’t deny them their media of choice just based on my desires. I can separate that and I think, because you’re in a bad mental state, you very much can’t.
I apologize if I made you feel attacked, it wasn’t my intention. You spoke with such authority and conviction about a problem I wasn’t aware of and I really wanted to understand. I’m a bit disappointed to learn that you used AI, but I hope that I the future, you will not rely on AI for information like this without confirming it exists and what the contents are.
I’m sorry for all the stuff that’s happened to you, but you really shouldn’t use AI. It’s bad for the environment and it often just makes stuff up instead of telling you accurate information.
really sorry to hear all this, and sorry about my comment earlier, i really did not mean to be dismissive
also yeah AI is no therapist, nor is it even halfway decent at, well, *anything*
it’s bad for the environment, it will reliably misinform you, the vast majority of the market for it is pure speculation, and I will always advise against using it just out of good conscience
Joyce and Joe, no matter how wholesome and healthy, weren’t going to work because Joe went into it as his first serious relationship, and Joyce went into it as her first casual one where she didn’t plan out their marriage and the names of their first five kids before he said goodnight.
Meanwhile, I’m inclined to say that Dorothy has never really given Walky anything resembling fairness or the level of thoughtfulness that he’s given her. And she can’t, because she is terrible at unpacking her own issues and all her coping mechanisms have been steering her toward burnout from the start. He does not deserve to be Dorothy’s backstop, and he doesn’t have enough relationships under his belt to stick up for himself.
And until she can at least learn some more healthy habits, she is going to repeat the same patterns with Joyce. She has been chasing a series of “If I had X that would fix me” and currently X is Joyce. And that’s really unfair to Joyce because Joyce is still pretty terrible at asserting what she wants. In that respect, Joe was and is better for Joyce because he gave her a lot of room to start doing that and figure out how to articulate that. Dorothy meanwhile will run the numbers and deliver a spreadsheet that tells Joyce what she should be doing, because that hyperfocus keeps Dorothy from thinking too hard about her own problems.
And yes, as others have said, all of these huge, gaping blind spots and pairings of people going in mutually exclusive directions are all too typical of college freshmen.
I really disagree about the viability of Joe/Joyce. Joyce wasn’t already planning their married life together right away, but that’s because she was actually allowing herself to enjoy the moment rather than think about the things she used to believe she *should* think about with whoever she’s dating. It was *also* her first serious relationship.
Agreed on this. Joe was her first real adult relationship.
no Joyce, I think it’s generally agreed that you’re only cheating on both partners if they do not know about each other; as it is you’re cheating on Joe WITH Dorothy, you’re not cheating on Joe AND Dorothy. I think the appropriate term here would be that Dorothy is your mistress, or the other woman
Calling it now: They’re going to get to Joyce’s room only for Sarah to hit them with the double-whammy that she’s headed to Tony’s and won’t be there to (unknowingly) keep them honest, and that she had a great interaction with Joe and really thinks he’s changed and that he and Joyce are good for each other.
Cue Willis getting to draw more anime-style freakout faces.
I think you’re right.
I am curious, some people talk about “searching” or “highlighting” specific words in the comments, how do you do that?
Control+F, usually.
I use it to search my name so I can get back to chains I’ve commented on.
Jesus sonce i am only ever comment on my phone i have to scroll through everything else to find my comments.
Oh apparently there is an option (in firefox at least) to search in page on my ohone. Nice tgat gonna save me some time!
Upvote for all of my fellow Firefoxers.
Fortunately DofA isn’t on Disqus so I don’t have to keep hitting “Load more comments” before “Find in page” searches it all.
My chrome phone browser also has the option.
ctrl+f
cmd+f if you’re on a Mac! Unsure about the keys on other systems.
ctrl-f on most windows/linux machines.
Ye, I was wondering about Linux, I’ve only ever used it via a VM. But that makes sense to me.
https://bsky.app/profile/damnyouwillis.bsky.social/post/3lvb5rdryqs23
Love you willis.
Aw, they’re so great! I love Dorothy offering to share the burden of blanket sin.
my actual answer to the new poll is “cheating is the consequence of society establishing solely monoamorous conventions and expecting polyamorous people to conform to them whilst also being completely oblivious to their own polyamory because no one discusses that such feelings exist, and a vocal portion of the populace acts as though the mere notion of polyamory is a sin in and of itself”
but I understand that such is rather long for the poll widget
I mean, I won’t deny that’s also a factor, but there are some people who do genuinely get a rush from being deceptive, controlling, and manipulative. Blaine O’Malley for instance.
oh certainly, and we should shit on those scumbags regardless of how their amore manifests
Yeah, I don’t think that’s really true. Or at least not most of it.
There are for example rather a lot of people (mostly, but not exclusively men) who want to be able to sleep with other people, but still don’t want their partners to. That’s not something that’ll fly in most poly relationships.
hard agree, can’t expect your partner to be exclusive and then not be so yourself. easy grounds for breaking up with the hypocrite
https://www.patreon.com/posts/135256668
More relevant context from a now-public Patreon post about this storyline.
No spoilers, obviously, but relevant as heck for folks who wanna get some more Willis Thoughts about the cheating and the writing process behind this strip especially.
*behind YESTERDAY’S strip, not today’s strip
Thanks once again Li.
There are aspects to these posts by Willis that are somewhat grating to me, but I think I still prefer knowing to not knowing.
You’re welcome, it jumped out to me from the sidebar…
FWIW I’m sure Maggie wasn’t reacting to this comment section. Definitely either the active and very negative Reddit community or maybe people on X or BlueSky.
“It has all the same parts but it’s missing the teeth” is a diabolical description for a strip where the punchline is a blowjob, and I’m convinced that Willis knew that. 😀
Poll needs an “is really not a good thing to be doing, but isn’t actually pure evil, especially not given several factors contributing to the making of really stupid decisions” option. They done fucked up, but it’s not like they’ve killed somebody for fun or some other actually evil thing.
Yeah, I feel like there are definitely grades to it. You realized you love someone else and you did hanky panky before breaking up with your current beau? Bad, but not evil. You kept a second relationship secret for months/years and didn’t care how your partner might feel about it? That’s a type of low-grade evil.
Yeah, I picked middle for lack of a more nuanced take.
Joyce and Dorothy are now technically doing the thing I was most worried about them doing, but so far I still feel bad for everyone involved rather than being too disappointed in these horny dummies.
Honestly, feel like the poll is WILLIS stirring the pot a bit. =P
Definitely sometimes!
This particular poll is SO close to being useful data, but I really think it needs an (in fiction) or (in real life) specification, among other options.
I may be new here (started reading last year), but I’m fairly certain that’s exactly what our Fearless Leader does, on a quite regular basis.
I picked that option because it’s the only one that isn’t ok with or indifferent to cheating, but that’s a far more extreme view on it than I actually have. I think cheating is morally bad and I’m very disappointed in Joyce and Dorothy and think less of them for their behavior lately, but I definitely think it’s not even close to the worst thing someone can do to someone else.
I mean yeah it’s not mean to be nuanced it is just silly.
Didn’t vote; don’t see the point. I doubt it will change anyone’s mind, including Willis’.
They’ll never beat the U-Haul allegations.
Hej —
I’m wondering… can anybody help me to understand something?
Like, I’m legit not trying to be sarcastic or dismissive, or anything. I truly do want to understand this.
I’m thinking I must have some kind of an “empathy button” broken, or something inside, because I legit do not understand how infidelity or extradyadic behavior (cheating) can be traumatic.
Like, I get that people do feel extremely upset about infidelity. I get that it super bothers people and makes folks feel miserable. I think I do understand that. Kind of. Like, I can see that folks are super upset and feel like they can no longer trust the person they thought they could have complete faith and trust in. So, it feels like a betrayal. Kind of like the bottom has fallen out from under you. Like you’re maybe — lost? Or don’t know what to believe? Doubting one’s own perceptions, maybe, like if there’s gaslighting or lying or deflection of blame involved?
Like, a DARVO response, I could understand as traumatic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO)
Am I just being too literal? I understand trauma by the definitions in the DSM-V and the DSM-IV. (https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/essentials/dsm5_ptsd.asp)
And maybe that’s too narrow.
Is there a broader definition of trauma that other people use?
(You folks know I’m really literal about words and don’t quite get how the meanings change outside of their original dictionary roots!)
I just don’t quite understand how learning of a beloved’s infidelity or extrarelational affairs triggers the same response as violence or death.
…Is it the potential exposure to STIs and other contagions?
Is it the fear of loss of reputational standing if others outside the relationship become aware of a spouse’s infidelity? Like, is a threat to the sense of self?
Is it the fear that an extrarelational affair might result in an unplanned pregnancy to someone, or a pregnancy that one would not have consented to without assurances of their partner’s dependability?
I’m really not trying to diminish anybody’s experience. I’m just trying to understand what it is about infidelity that people experience as traumatic.
…I’m sorry, I don’t mean any offense! It’s just that few things make me aware of my own neurodivergence more than realizing that apparently the majority of people have a visceral, revulsive, autonomic response to something that makes so little sense to me.
This is legit me just asking for help in parsing things. I’d be grateful for any perspectives that can enlighten me about how and why this is traumatic. It would help me to understand other people better. It’s not something that I’ve ever quite “gotten”, intuitively, on my own.
Thank you in advance!
(And it’s OK if you pillory me. I can take it. I think. I hope.) 😉
Is it the moral injury of the situation? I could understand that, perhaps, as being something that folks might experience as traumatic. Hmm…
OK, no, sorry, just trying to suss it out by taking the concept apart piece by piece. How I figure out what emotions mean.
Like… is it, how, you might depend on a partner for something you need, something that’s essential to you, and then you realize that maybe they might want to leave, and then you couldn’t depend on them anymore?
I get how that would be traumatic. Like losing a job and not knowing how you’re going to feed your kids or stay housed. That’s an existential threat. So I can see how behavior that could end a relationship could be that threatening, too, to one’s own sufficiency.
I don’t think there’s a good way to get information on this from website comment sections to be honest
the majority of respondants either have a personal stake or think those that have a personal stake are being silly/annoying/etc
(and people with no strong opinion are typically not moved to comnent)
Yea, that makes sense, Yeet. Thank you for pointing that out. 🙂
I’m just not online much at all, except for here, so I’m trying to find my “talking to people” where I can find it.
Sometimes I think it depends on certain events around the cheating. For example, my grandfather cheated on my grandmother a lot. To the point that other people in their town knew about it before she ever learned of it, and she found out because one of the individuals in their town finally had enough and felt like she needed to inform my grandmother. From there, I think my grandma’s trauma response to the cheating was due to the deception of a long-term affair, as well as how humiliated she had to feel, knowing that others (some of them strangers to her) knew more about what was happening in her marriage than even she herself knew. It’s a big breach of trust and especially painful if you think your spouse is meant to be with you until either one of you dies. My grandparents made a vow together when they got married, had a child together, and still grandpa decided to cheat on her. There’s also the trickle-down of what happens after, in my case my grandma went from a housewife to a single mother who now had to work double to make money to keep a home as well as raise her son all on her own. In her case she also eventually had to take in her father who developed Alzheimers, lots of stress that would be easier if she had a spouse to help take some of the pressure off. This also leads to building resentment, as she tries her best during these stressful circumstances and thinks “if that man didn’t cheat on me, things wouldn’t be so hard”.
The other factors you noted are likely big factors too! A big thing with trauma as well is that sometimes the brain is just… funky. What some people experience as being traumatic, others might not, and sometimes it all comes down to previous experiences and perhaps just the general personality and make-up of each individual. For some people, being cheated on may be unpleasant but could be less traumatic if that person’s POV of the situation is “well clearly that person was a shitty partner. That’s not my problem, that’s theirs” and then they go about their life. Whereas for others, if that person cheated on them, it might hamper their ability to trust future partners. After all, they didn’t expect that one person to cheat, so how can they know for sure? One of my cousins has a reaction like this, that unfortunately leads her to lowkey stalk her boyfriends because she’s so terrified they’re gonna cheat… I’ve tried to talk to her about it, but with her particular neurodivergences (PTSD, Schizophrenia, BPD), she’s not inclined to listen to me, her younger cousin, when she’s so sure that her boyfriends are gonna cheat if she doesn’t keep a close close CLOSE eye on them.
Thank you for sharing that, Doopyboop. That’s helpful. That helps it make more sense to me.
Yeesh, I’m so sorry that happened to your grandmother! How awful for her! That’s a terrible thing she had to go through all that.
You’re very welcome, Laura! I’ve never personally experienced being cheated on, so I figured pulling from family history would be the best way to go. Sometimes it’s best to pull examples from lived experiences in order to explain emotional situations. And thank you for that! I feel bad for her and my father as well, it definitely affected a lot of things for them in their life going forward.
I also wanna tell you that I think your original comment here was written very respectfully! You definitely got your point across well without, in my opinion at least, causing any offense. It’s clear that you sincerely wish to understand why people would be affected by being cheated on and I commend you for reaching out to understand!
Thank you so much, Doopyboop. I truly am grateful to know that it came out OK. I don’t have much social sonar and am pretty much a klutz when it comes to communicating effectively, so it’s always a risk to ask questions that feel obvious to people who are not me.
And… oof! For your cousin! Wow, that must be so hurtful. Like, feeling like she can never experience trust or reliance on others again. Like, feeling as though she’s somehow responsible for policing their behavior because she has to expect the worst or risk another betrayal.
Woof.
What a hard way to go through life.
My heart goes out to her.
And to you, for standing by her. She’s lucky to have a family member in her life who understands her.
Human relationships are complicated and intense and the shock and betrayal of learning that someone you loved so much you couldn’t take it wasn’t who you thought they were, that they would be willing to violate your trust and disregard your relationship, that can be traumatic.
Huh. …OK, yes, I guess I could see that. Like, it’s because of the depth of the passion and feeling of connection. I think that makes some sense to me.
Thank you for sharing that, Dot! I appreciate the perspective!
Another level of trauma could lead to always wondering in future relationships if it’s happening again. “I trusted once and was wrong. Am I wrong again now. I don’t think so, but I didn’t think so before.”
Oh, yes, I can see that. Like, it’s a loss of faith in the veracity one’s own perceptions. Yeah, that could really throw someone for a loop! Wow. Huh.
Thank you, thejeff!
Maybe this will be a useful set of data points, since I have been cheated on a couple of times, but am having both a less intense and significantly different response to this storyline than some other commenters who share the experience of infidelity.
Instances where there has been a conspiracy to conceal a pattern of behavior involving more people than the cheater themselves have been more troubling to me because they carried the implication that no one in the larger social circle was willing to do the hard thing and tell me something I should know. The sense of betrayal was rooted in the impression that I did not have community support or respect.
Instances that have involved impulsive behavior (that I heard about from the person in question, and involving any kind of contrition), haven’t bothered me in a lasting way. I’ve forgiven stupider things than these characters have done so far, and the relationships that they occurred within survived long enough to end over more important matters.
…..Because I have a lot of sympathy for impulsive behavior you regret after the fact, since it’s a diagnostic symptom of a disorder I have. I take medication for it *now*, but I was undiagnosed/untreated for a long time, and I am intimately familiar with needing to apologize to someone you deeply value for saying some wildly out of pocket shit while manic. It suuuuucks to clip back into consensus reality and realize you have fucked up REAL bad and need to go make amends. You eventually build up guardrails and patterns of behavior to keep it from happening again, but I sure didn’t have those in a sufficiently developed state to not occasionally be a dingus to my friends at 18.
Idk, sometimes you have to be willing to forgive people if you also want to be forgiven.
Yeah, I think there’s some lack of empathy going on for impulsive behaviour. It’s easy to say “well, I’ve never cheated or had an impulse to cheat in the first place”, but it’s not always as cut and dry as that. Sometimes, something feels right in the moment, even if you know it’s not the best idea – and sometimes you feel absolutely awful about it afterwards, and sometimes you don’t actually know if you regret it or not. It’s messy! Human brains and human emotions are complicated and especially if you already have weird things going on in your brain. I’m not saying neurodivergence is an excuse to cheat, before anyone wants to put words in my mouth, but most people’s brains work pretty differently from each other, and I find that it’s hard to judge someone’s impulsive or defensive behaviour without taking the time to listen to them to figure out what led them there.
I’ve been cheated on too, and I’m also much less bothered about this arc than what seems to be the average for those of us who have. Yeah, obviously they need to talk to Joe and Walky soon, but it’s been a few hours at most – when I was cheated on, he sat on it for two weeks before he was able to tell me, and I don’t think that’s weird at all. It takes time to process that you’ve done something you shouldn’t have done and that might hurt someone you love, and even if Dorothy’s trying to draft her break-up speeches already, I would have been shocked if they were able to articulate things this early before they’ve had the time to process it for themselves. Like, that would genuinely have felt way less realistic to me than them being stupid about it for at least overnight.
To add on for Laura as well: I think it’s the damage to your ability to trust that typically hits a lot of people pretty hard. It probably hits the hardest when it goes on for a long time – some people are cheated on for years before they find out – and it’s obviously much worse if it turns out other people also knew and just… didn’t tell you, because then it means you couldn’t trust any of them to be honest with you about something that might affect your consent to stay in the relationship. But that’s not backed up so much by experience on my part, just empathy with people who have experienced that sort of thing. I was lucky in that my cheating partner told me himself fairly early after, apologized, and clearly didn’t intend to do it again, so I wasn’t too bothered, honestly. I know some people would still have taken it as a bigger breach of trust than I did, but I certainly wasn’t traumatized.
That’s a very wise perspective, Ornathe. Thank you for helping me to understand that there are different ways to see the situation, and that all the context and timing matters. I am grateful to you for sharing your story.
And… yeah. Wow. Feeling let down, like — it must be kind of like wondering who one really even is, if one cannot count on the friendships and community and peers and relationships that one had previously relied on to orient one to one’s own place in the world. It’s like, “Who am I, if my own friends won’t even stick up for me by telling me something I needed to know?”
That’s so harsh. So hard to endure.
Wow… I learned so much just from talking to you all about this! Thank you all so much for explaining this stuff to me so kindly and so carefully!
…Even though I’m an older person now, I still haven’t had the experience of seeing how other people feel these things, and sexuality was one of those things that I have never truly understood in the way that other people do.
…Best I could understand it was all different from what other people experience, it seems.
Thank you for being honest and helping me to see from the other points of view.
Oh, wow, kitkatabasis…
Thank you so much for explaining all that to me.
That makes so much sense. I really appreciate your willingness to share such a heartfelt personal perspective here. Thank you.
It is the promise of hell that brings us back to church!
-The voice inside of Joyce right now
This reply is comment 666.
Okay but why is Dorothy on her left now
It’s such a minor thing but it’s been bugging me all day -_-
they started walking.
joyce first I guess
Looking forward to everyone finding out when Joyce’s parents show up at the dorm because they found out via news coverage that definitely caught the queer kissing.
Oh… oh no… I hadn’t considered this possibility. Wouldn’t that be a shitstorm worthy of some artillery-grade fireworks?
So the comic is now repressed, horny, guilty, and anxious as its major flavors? Actually, that tracks. Why was I ever so invested?
I’m not loving that the story feels headed to a Liar Revealed trope, which is tired, especially when paired with cheating. I hope it isn’t drawn out. If Joyce and Dorothy’s relationship was going to be moved up YEARS in the story, then I’d rather dive right into it and the fallout than see a bunch of sneaking. Here’s hoping that there’s protest footage that expedites the process. Give me the big shakeup!
I also hope that Willis didn’t rush into delivering fanservice at the expense of character development. Joyce, a sheltered fundie who has experienced a crisis of identity over every revelation in her life, from loss of faith, to her autism, to her sexual awakening, to GETTING GLASSES…
She’s bisexual and not even remotely reflecting on that or acting shocked? Hopefully we get more introspection from Joyce on this once the revelation has time to breathe and the immediacy of the moment has died down.