Always one there is. Either master or apprentice. Fateful highways are a more common way to rectify the number than lesbian sex, but they’re also a lot less pleasant.
Joyce: I know you suggested we give D&D a try, but I thought that might be a little advanced. But I found a B&D group online and signed us up, that’s two letters lower so it’s probably the easier version.
Dorothy: ( ㆆ_ㆆ)
Joyce: Help me fill out these character sheets. Do you prefer whips or flails? And I guess the only armor available at our level is leather, that’s all that’s listed here.
Lucy is snooty about knowing all the D&D. All of it. Amber is snooty about knowing much better TTRPGs. Sal calls everyone dumb nerds but secretly watches Dumbiverse Avantris streams with wonderbread (but he better not talk or ask questions).
Insert funny Chick tract references. Dark Dungeons, heh.
Yeah this has a lot in common with Becky’s spiral after she and Dina did the deed for the first time. Joyce is determined not to care about going to hell, determined to not believe hell is real, but that’s still almost twenty years of training to go against.
(Worth noting that Becky had also decided hell wasn’t real before she and Dina had sex, and she tried to explain her feelings as not wanting to disappoint God. I think Joyce still has that feeling, even though in her case it’s less “God” than “my dad and my older siblings and maybe my grandparents”.)
Well hey if ya got DOFS ya might as well hilariously riff on it!
I think she believes she’s over it and is trying to prove that by showing that she’s so far past it it’s a joke to her, and she didn’t get that that’s not who it would look to Dorothy which is why the joke flopped. Maybe she’s right or maybe it’s self-delusion, personally I can see it either way.
Another intpretations I see though is that she accepts that DOFS will be slow to heal but she’s found a workaround putting it inside a comedy wrapper. Either consciously or subconsviously.
Ayup.
Add to that – any god who would deny her sex isn’t a god worth worshiping. Thus, there’s no reason to fear such a god – so she might as well have more sex.
Which is, incidentally, one of the reasons I worship Isis – a goddess who knows how to get her freak on and understands intimately the value of dildos.
Pun fucking intended.
Ventre was the Quirmian philosopher (mentioned in Hogfather) who expounded the Discworld equivalent of Pascal’s Wager. He said, “Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it’s all true you’ll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn’t then you’ve lost nothing, right?”
When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, “We’re going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts…”
whereas I’ve always thought that a “belief” arrived at through logic and game theory, which “costs [you] nothing”, is one so shallow as to be meaningless. That’s no more than a proposition, a hypothetical, not something you feel to be true.
The Discworld gods agree with you. Other hand, it’s hard not to believe in them, or at least their existence – as Sir Pterry said, it’s difficult to be atheist when the gods come around on Saturday afternoons to throw rocks through atheists’ windows. (I also liked the witches’ attitude – sure the gods exist, but that’s no reason to go around believing in them. It’d be like believing in the postman.)
If I remember correctly Pascal actually addressed that in his writings. He wrote (again, this is from memory from a long time ago) that once you have logicked your way to realizing that being a believer is in your best self-interest, you should start *acting* like a believer, going to church, saying the right words, etc etc etc, and by osmosis or whatever you would start to *actually* believe, and that actual belief would count.
Of course it’s all nonsense anyway; Pascal was a great mathematician but a rubbish philosopher.
I always assume that if Hell exists then literally everyone is going. I just can’t imagine the average modern person reaches the standards to get to heaven.
Or as I like to call it. The Baby Cakes Theorem.
Those might be advanced heathenism for Joyce, however. She only dropped her first f-bomb a little while ago, it’ll be half her vocabulary if she watches those shows.
Last few days have convinced me that the hater containment thread does still need to exist and the problem children are back together so ⬇️ kvetch here
I’d be a lot let hater-y if all the Joyrothy stuff was advancing a plot instead of sidelining it.
Look! They’re a couple now! Yeah, I figured that out from the first few dozen strips. Thanks for the heads-up. Now can we get back to Dina/Becky, or Billifer/Ruth/GirlWhoseNameIKeepForgetting, or the Joe/Sarah conversation from a little bit ago, or, or, or…
Someone mentioned Hazbin Hotel elsewhere, and in one of today’s episodes Carmilla goes, “I don’t have time for this lesbian drama.”, and now all I can think of is, “if you think wasting time on lesbian drama is bad, you should try having to put up with lesbian bore.”
same. i don’t even dislike them but please god can we see the other characters. like, i enjoyed the break! it was great! but these two returning may well mean like three weeks of cute couple antics and no updates on any of the other characters, who are going through stuff i’m much more interested in.
Even if all you say is “I’m sick of these two, they’re saccharine and boring,” expect to still be treated (and mocked) by some as if you personally wish death on both characters!
Much like today’s comic, disliking Doyce is a binary for certain fans. The hater containment thread is the only solace. If you stay here, contained, “where you belong,” then you *might* not get called a homophobe.
Welcome to 2025, where even our echo chambers have echo chambers.
Everyone just loves being told that they’re inhuman homophobes who’re only allowed to post in one specific place lest they offend the good people with their existence.
Didn’t mean to point any of that bitterness at you, Dot. Thank you for this thread, it’s genuinely nice to have a place where I’m not (as likely to be) attacked for disliking a ship <3
If you wanna point me at some examples of people calling you a homophobe for not liking the ship, I will be happy to reply there in your defense. FWIW.
To Dorothy? Nah. I think if anything we get one strip where Joyce bumps into Joe and cuts things off in no uncertain terms, and that’s the end of it. Maybe gives the blanket back or something too.
It’s still nighttime, right? Trying to hedge the bet on whether or not Sarah is sleeping in her own bed tonight which means another confrontation, or she’s just gonna sleep at Tony’s and postpone it for tomorrow.
Hey there haters. So on a whim today I thought I’d make a poll that tries, as nicely as possible, see where the largest sticking points are for people when it comes to Doyce. Thought it might be nice to be able to see a chart that reflects the audience’s opinion.
Note that these questions do not necessarily reflect my opinions. I mostly tried to figure out the most common complaints I’ve been seeing.
very yikes stuff i’m not gonna acknowledge but shout out to the (milder but still) Brave Soldier out there implying that not liking dojo makes you abnormal
Actually I’ll just eliminate the “Other” option for the time bein’. Sorry for the inconvenience :P. I guess I had too much faith in people to not abuse the opportunity!
Totally fair. That said I really appreciate the person who added “It was the most important platonic relationship in the strip and that’s fucked now.” because that’s one of the major factors of it for me and I wish I could +1 that.
Yeah I feel a bit guilty. I only included it cuz I wasn’t sure if I had comprehensively included every possible option. Tried to see if there was a way to like…make it so I could see the other options first before adding them to the poll but since I couldn’t just decided to close it. If there’s a reason not on the poll I guess you can just tell me directly in the comment section or something 😛
Don’t feel guilty. Some people are just immature and compelled to ruin things. It’s the internet. We appreciate the spirit of what you tried and overall it seems like it’s a success. Putting it more generously than it deserves “cringe” like that is just a common pitfall.
You’d think more designers of polling etc. software would be aware that the Internet is the Internet and that allowing unmoderated text boxes to be posted where the public can see is asking for troubles.
It was “nice” of Yotomoe to leave that one in as a reminder that we the reasonable DoJo haters are quite often also the target of weird negativity/hostility.
I imagine the other option, which it sounds like was a violent threat of some sort, was probably so distracting that it made the passive-aggressive “I like them bc I’m normal” hard for Yotomoe to even spot among the other answers to delete.
Naw I saw it. I just left it in cuz while it seemed backhanded it didn’t feel SO rude that I felt it needed to be deleted. At least not as urgently as other stuff.
For what it’s worth, my first reaction to that was to giggle about 1 single person — 0.06% of the responders — claiming to be “normal”. Not shaming, that’s just not what “normal” means.
Yeah, I snarl at it because “you’re not normal” is a pretty vicious thing to say in a thread THIS full of neurodivergence, but for me personally it’s water off a duck’s back, y’know? I moderated a fanfiction forum for multiple years.
knowing whoever said that is just around in these comments makes me feel deeply unsafe in a way that “weird and disturbing” just doesn’t describe. and just further emboldens my feeling that this community encouraging all this hatred is attracting the worst kinds of people.
like fucking hell in a handbasket who do i have to fuck to unread that shit.
someone other than me needs to make a positivity thread. I’m a pariah and don’t want to get the heat i always get whenever i suggest someone be less awful, but someone else needs to start like encouraging good behavior instead of bad behavior because this kind of shit is panic attack inducing.
i need to not open this site for a long time now i think, binge the backlogs in a month or so, idk, this place has become hazardous to my health again
These people been around for a while. They usually get moderated out of existence if they try being in the comments section, but when Willis makes poll options for “I want insane body horror thing to occur” or whatever that’s what he’s making fun of/calling out.
Those people are assholes. They are tremendous outliers. And I imagine most of them would behave very differently if they conceived of anyone down here as having real personhood, but that tends to evaporate through the internet. Whomever they are, they cannot hurt you here, but they are disturbing. And they’re trying to be.
I’d like to back this thought up as well if it brings comfort to Megan. This comment section is curated and moderated. That kind of stuff isn’t allowed because despite what some think this isn’t a free space it’s Willis’ space. Creeps like that just lurk waiting for an opportunity to post cringe for attention. While this comment section does get pretty heated I find most that participate here regularly at least afford each other a bare minimum of respect in most interactions. We’re all just trying to chat about a dumb comic. You should feel safe. Do take a break if you need it. Even the frustration of arguing can be mentally taxing.
I lmao’d at seeing “I liked Dorothy and Walky together” as literally the least voted non write-in option, even below “I’m just homophobic”.
Should’ve had an option for “I’m sad Dorothy dumped Walky instead of him growing a backbone, realizing he didn’t have the same romantic feelings for that he used to, and breaking things off himself.”
I’m still sad that Dorothy didn’t dump Walky himself and Joyce interrupted it. That could have been an amazing g conversation to cut back to multiple times without them making any progress.
Good poll. The only thing I might add as a response that wasn’t covered (granted, I checked I think 9 boxes) would be “I don’t like how badly intertwined the ‘cheating’ and ‘coming out’ stories are, it makes both storylines worse.”
I love Dorothy and Joyce, but the biggest drawbacks are the potential disruptions to Dorothy and Walky, and to a slightly lesser extent Joyce and Joe. They both qualify as sticking points, so I went there to see if they were listed and they were, but in a stronger form that I can agree with, so I returned without voting.
I hope the frequent “Dorothy gets weird about/scolds Joyce for expressing something not perfectly in line with her view of atheism after only two months of not believing in god” bits are going somewhere.
Because having half a relationship constantly policing what the other half says to ensure orthodoxy isn’t a great dynamic.
True. I’d love for someone other than Danny to acknowledge it tho.
Like my dream scenario is with the Asma bowling thing to have Danny show up with Sal, then Joyce makes a fundie joke which Dorothy “corrects.”
Then Danny makes a crack at Dorothy about being a control freak and advises Joyce she doesn’t have to put up with being talked down to / treated like a child. Cue something coming of it (Joyce reflecting on how she treated Dina?) and Asma then seeks out Alice to share the drama.
I’ve heard that it happens automatically after a certain threshold, and needs to be manually reviewed and cleared. Not sure what the specifics are, but if so I appreciate the diligence to review and actively “allow,” for lack of a better word, a complaints-specific thread about your own comic.
Hmm, Dorothy’s not loving the ex-fundie humor. Joyce is right in the last panel, though. They should definitely be doing as much sex as possible.
Also, this seems to imply that Joyce no longer considers the laundry room incident to be sex, since she appears to be referring to their Slipshine encounter as the time of her virginity loss/defilement.
I’d like to put my money on Dorothy’s post-nut clarity being that she can’t actually stand the words coming out of Joyce’s face when she’s not horned up.
Asterial, it may also be that Joyce considers virginity and sex to be related but still independent concepts with different edge case standards stemming from orthogonal definitions.
Currently experiencing unusual sensations that seem to be impacting my faculties of perception, will see if I have any coherent thoughts on this come the morrow
I fully believe Joyce agreed to being Joe’s girlfriend still and plans to sleep with him alongside Dorothy. I also believe she will completely not clear it with Dorothy first because she thinks anything done for love is alright because she’s an de-fundying and thus what feels good is good.
Joyce has promised to continue the conversation with Joe and has not yet done so. She has absolutely not agreed to being Joe’s girlfriend still. This is a thing which did not happen. Please post a link if you believe otherwise.
Eh idk how the Joe situation will play out but I can definitely see an overcorrection where Joyce decides to go full hedonism because she’s traded one absolute for another.
That would be a interesting reversal, when Willis said they were going to write an arc about cheating, I initially assumed that would mean it would be a while before Joe found out about Joyce and Dorothy, but since that happened relatively quickly I wonder if the actual “cheating” the arc will actually be focused about will be about Joyce hiding her continued unbroken relationship with Joe from Dorothy. Makes me wonder if we the audience might end up not finding out the answer Joyce gave to Joe’s proposition (presuming it was a yes) until Dorothy discovers it herself?
I thought that whole Joyce giving Joe a bj instead of breaking up with him was gonna setup some crazy cheating shenanigans but I think the very negative reaction to even the lightest of cheating has probably pivoted the story away from any of that potential.
In fact they told us that they did a partial pivot on the BJ strip because they and Maggie both had concerns that people would react super negatively (as they began doing, the second stuff started happening), but then reinstated the original version of the strip because it felt worse to them to keep Joyce from doing that in that specific way.
(And also because as it came close to publish time, Maggie discovered a slew of gross commenters on the Reddit who were specifically whining about Joyce’s purity being besmirched and the loss of their waifu*, and she encouraged Willis to pull the trigger on the original version of the strip because screw that demographic of readers.)
* not all people on Reddit hold this POV, this is not a broad attack on people with more mild opinions
That’s interesting to know, considering the BJ was very much skimmed over in strip while hooking up with Dorothy was something we’ve been lingering on for a while. I get that it wouldn’t give Joyce the same kind of joy or euphoria, but I’d expect it to stick in her mind a bit more.
My only problem with this claim is the line, “she’s an de-fundying and thus what feels good is good.”
A central tenant of Fundyness IS “what feels good is good, what feels bad is bad”. Fundy’s believe in an inherent God-Given Conscious. Which manifests as gut-reactions and feelings.
That is how they know stuff that makes them uncomfortable (for example: acknowledging systematic racism exists) is actually evil and Satanic.
And its how they know their own sins are compleateky forgivable foibles at worst.
I think you could pretty easily argue that your statement is true of the hypocritical class of fundies but Joyce has not generally shown herself to be anything other than sincere in most of her beliefs, preferring to change them rather than coast on “when I or my friends do it, it’s not REALLY a sin”.
She’s buzzing from having sex for the first time (with an active partner) while fighting back against her programmed self loathing caused by what she’s trying not to think of as a major transgression, and it’s all getting jumbled so hard.
For years, including into my marriage when it should have been “fine”, I would actually physically vibrate with guilt after sex.
Screw Paul of Tarsus, that guy’s obsession with chastity is still ruining people’s lives two thousand years later.
Perhaps but generally engaging in non-marital sex carried many risks, especially for the woman. There were diseases but there was also the risk of getting pregnant. Pregnancies were dangerous even when you had a support system, without it? The woman and her child were screwed.
Probably but I remembered that had a specific meaning and I was too exhausted to double check whether it was the right word so I made one up that I hoped would convey the right thing.
Here I was thinking only Becky has a lot of confusing, contradictory feelings about the Jorothy development, but yeah, the fundie brain is strong for both of those involved. Get those feelings out! Verbalize your thoughts! Hopefully with a good friend who will understand what you mean with the things you say without judging you for saying them! (Poor Becky.)
I clicked on that link and clicked on another comic link and eventually ended up back in 2011 and was this Joyce/Dorothy thing just planned from the start or something?
It’s really been interesting to me, how people see “cheating.” How people seem to think “Well, Joyce kissed Dorothy while she was in a relationship with Joe, before telling him the next day, therefore Joyce is going to sleep with Joe, and hide it from Dorothy.”
It’s like there’s no spectrum, it’s just fully “this person is a cheater, therefore they are irredeemable, therefore they will do any kind of cheating with no warning.”
In addition to what thejeff said, there’s also “Joyce demonstrated during the Jacob+Sarah+Joyce arc that she doesn’t actually care much about cheating as long as she thinks the right thing will happen in the end” — and even though she remonstrated to herself about that later, it’s seemingly gone out the window again.
To be clear, I don’t think she’s irredeemable, but I do think she’s showing a pattern at this point. Prior to her actually cheating on Joe I took the position of “she probably won’t, she learned that lesson” but now that she HAS done so (and followed up with the blanket blowjob) I kinda suspect we need to see some more growth from her before I will believe she’s going to stop haring off after whatever think currently feels most like Twue Wub.
TIL some people take mattresses off the bed to put on fitted sheets
I am somewhat confused, because it seems like a lot of extra work to have to haul it back up once you’ve got the sheet on with elevated beds like that and it strikes me like 50/50 that the sheet would come right back off
I think they’re doing it that way due to it being a lofted bed. They can’t exactly easily maneuver the sides without stools and there’s the chance of falling.
I don’t think I knew anyone in college who did that, it was about evenly split between
1) fuck it, as long as the corners are vaguely in place it’s good enough
2) I will bend up the corners of the mattress from the middle and scooch around to do one corner at a time until it’s all perfect (my personal choice)
3) fitted sheets are for people who have standards, I sleep in a pile.
I will say that the provided dorm mattresses when I was in school were light enough that Joyce’s method would be PLAUSIBLE.
Is it harder to remove the mattress and place the sheets on or to try and place sheets on while balancing on a narrow loft bed frame? I think either way this task is annoying but one way is at least safer.
Every dorm mattress I’ve ever had – and I had a lot – were thin enough that you could just kneel on the middle of the mattress and get the sheet around the corners just fine.
Many of my non-dorm mattresses too for that matter
maybe IU has a better grade of dorm mattress, in which case, you know, good on ’em
Relative ease is strongly dependent on mattress type. Stuff and light = this is the way. Heavy and floppy = time to figure out how to perch like a bird/I guess I sleep on the floor now/who needs sheets?.
who needs sheets?
yeah you’re never gonna get ’em
who needs sheets?
tell me what’s that fo-or
who needs sheets?
be happy that you gottem
there’s a dorm where the floor has been mattressed since the war
Right? I couldn’t believe I had to scroll this far to find this comment! What is she doing? I know getting sheets onto a bunkbed/loft isn’t easy, but I can’t imagine taking the entire mattress off is easier! I’ve put sheets on lofts and bunkbeds a lot of times in my life, and it literally never occurred to me to take off the mattress, because that would suck.
Depends on the bed, depends on the sheets, depends on the mattress. I’d never dream of doing it with the King foam mattress the wife and I have; that thing could crush a person if it stood on end like that. On the other hand, I can’t imagine changing my daughter’s twin traditional spring mattress on the bed; easier to take it off, put on the fitted sheet, and put back.
No fear of it coming off; the main reason you take the mattress off (other than convenience) is that you can get it evenly and snugly fitted on the mattress.
That must be a really lightweight mattress. I always have my bed in a corner and I definitely am on the bed while I put new sheets on. No way am I taking the whole mattress off and heaving it back up there.
I was surprised by this, too. I had lofted beds most of the time I was in the dorms and I never took it down to put the sheets on. I very likely would have knocked into stuff on my desk or the shelf between the beds and broken stuff. Like some others said, I just kneeled on the middle and pulled up the corners and put the sheet around.
I find there’s humorous irony that Becky has lost her faith over Joyce having sex and Joyce has suddenly slipped back into it habitually by having sex. Those two have the same sort of flaw in their belief system. It was never actually about the faith for either of them. There’s something there. Something worth not trusting but I’m not sure what that is.
I think it’s a really neat character trait that Joyce continually slips back into a religious mindset when she’s stressed or just really wired. Her quoting the Book of Ruth before running after Dorothy at the protest is another great example. She keeps correcting herself because she doesn’t really believe in G-d anymore but when you live your whole life by a particular system, it’s understandable to sometimes fall back into it when you need some comfort or something solid to grab onto. These kinds of breaks are rarely clean or immediate.
Oooh. See, this is one of the things I like about Joyce and Joe. Joe’s REALLY good at talking Joyce through her insecurities, while Dorothy is a bit more judgmental / how can I fix this. (Note, in case it needs to be said: I’m not against this whole storyline. This is not a “My ship sank, fuck everything!”, this is a “Ooh, after the high of seeing how cute these two are together, now we’re get to see the pros and cons of the couple, which is going to cause drama, and I’m heating my popcorn. :)”
“This is a totally normal thing which everyone has done/experienced, right? … right?”
Far more common, in my own experience, is the mix of horrified and sympathetic reactions from everyone else, trying to explain to the person with scars from their fucked-up upbringing that no, actually…
I mean. That is very much gonna depend on the group of friends.
Also, I hope the sympathy and horror is coming from the upbringing and not as a reaction to someone just being into tragic sexy lesbians. It’s not my personal cup of tea but I know enough people who are way into that, and would not appreciate condescending sympathy regarding their favorite shipping tropes.
Nah, I’m talking about when someone casually mentions some awful thing that happened/was done to them, and then goes “why are you all looking at me like that?” (Which I have personally witnessed three times, and heard of several more.)
o3o Not sure if this is just someone abusing the report system once again or not but JUST in case gonna repost the now curated version of my Doyce Disliker Poll. Feel free to drop in ideas for a Doyce Liker poll too, I’ll do that next. https://strawpoll.com/eNg6vJXN8gA
Oh right the backstory is gone too.
Basically I remember a while back we were talking about the site polls and how I think what caused a lotta frustration was that some people felt unrepresented or misrepresented by the options. So I wanted to make something that took most of the more common complaints I’ve been seeing into account and curating in one place.
I had “other” options turned on at first but some edgelords put some upsetting answers on there so I had to delete them and turn it off. But if you feel like I haven’t represented your position or specific feelings let me know and I can add it manually. And as always be kind
“I like the pairing, but the cheating part not being addressed yet is causing it to wear on me”
Because we have had repercussions (Becky lashing out, Joe’s heart break, etc.) so it’s different from the “I like cheating but no repercussions” response, but none of the other answer combos really fit it either. Basically, I’d be more on board if Joyce remembered Joe’s request and either asked Dorothy about a throuple or it was made clear Joyce either forgot or intentionally is trying to have two relationships at once without Dorothy’s knowing. The lack of confirmation on which way that is going is basically make it drag on for me and lose the luster, ya know?
There have been consequences, but few have landed on the people most responsible (IMO). They get to walk through the center of the chaos, happy and untouched by it (through the grace of Willis), while everyone else has to deal.
I don’t think it was abusing the report system if we choose to take things in good faith. Some people took advantage of your idea as an opportunity to post hate and that upset readers. It kinda sucks that people are like that.
To keep things more positive I like the poll and think it accurately reflects the consensus on the issues with the Doyce development. Here’s hoping it stays this time.
All mass reporting the containment thread is gonna do is make it redundant and turn it all free-range again.
Anyways, good poll. Only suggestion is the options about cheating have one be “I don’t like cheating plots at all” and the other be “I don’t like how little fallout has come from the cheating plot” or something. Because I don’t like cheating plots, but if it was actually done well I could hold my nose – but having the option say “I like cheating” was a bit much for me to click on lol.
Does that person realize that if the HCT keeps getting nuked, people will just post all over the comments and it may cause Willis to just lock comments for months, if not until the comic is over (since he said this relationship is end game)?
Eh, people are gonna post their negativity regardless of whether or not there’s a “containment” thread. It doesn’t really matter if it’s all up and down the comments section or if it’s localized entirely within one person’s reply chain, I don’t have any faith that people are toning their comments down in either scenario.
My sleep schedule these days makes it hard for me to wake up early enough to see the HCT before it gets nuked most days, but the times I have seen it, it’s been very mild criticisms. I’m starting to think some folks just don’t want to see any criticism of Doyce at all in these comments.
Yeah the containment thread now gets reported away with consistency. I know it’s not Willis putting their thumb on the scale because they’ve talked about restoring it after it gets reported away before, it’s some asshole who is abusing the reporting system. I have my suspicions as to which specific assholes it might be but I’m not gonna stir the pot baselessly.
I think a lot of the supposed vitriol in the containment thread is misrepresented. I read the comments too. Most of the conversation in the thread is about not liking the story or characters. Valid critiques even if some expectations of the comic are unreasonable or biased. So constantly reporting your thread does seem like someone acting in bad faith.
I’ve been more and more split on “hater thread getting mass reported by the worst DoJo enjoyers” vs. “hater thread getting mass reported by the actual homophobes/assholes who hate that Dot’s hater thread is a place for REASONABLE dislike.”
Part of it is, it doesn’t even need to be mass reported (as in, by many people)– it would just take one person putting in effort to report it numerous time.
That’s also true — I’m not sure how it tracks who has or has not done an action, but it’s not “IP address” since the poll will register as “you haven’t voted yet” on my phone even after I voted on my desktop.
So if it’s a cookie or something, in theory one person with a sufficient amount of determination could do it in a couple minutes.
There were, admittedly, a LOTTA people who were DoJo haters but didn’t like the idea that their complaints “had to” be confined (despite no rule saying they had to at all, it was just a kinda polite option Dot offered everyone).
There were, but none of them seemed to care about whether or not they posted in the hater thread, just resentful of the idea they SHOULD, so I’m less inclined to think they are at fault here.
Far as I can reconstruct the timeline, the thing with the newspaper happened this morning, and we’re getting almost to dinner time. I know it’s been weeks for us, but…
It’s not how long it’s been that matters, it’s what’s happened.
If she’s decided she’s not interested in the poly thing, then it’s no big deal. If she is or is even seriously considering it, then it’s a big question that should have been cleared up before they proceeded farther in their relationship.
Preferably before she dumped Walky for Dorothy, but hey.
Really hope Dorothy’s constant attitude to Joyce any time she says anything remotely Not Atheist ™ is leading up to something. Like let her have a different interpretation of what sex is to you. Or make a joke out of her lifetime of repressive experiences she’s only gotten past in the last couple of months ffs.
And having half a relationship constantly policing the other for lapses in orthodoxy isn’t a great dynamic.
I’m not doubting you at all, it’s just my brain has been so distracted by all this that it kinda dumped a lot of what Dorothy and others have done wrong as a cache overflow protection
I hesitate to call it definitely ableism over being too much of a busybody, but there was the bit when Joyce went on birth control and got told she might be autistic where she was real sick of everyone trying to run her life for her. And Dorothy will absolutely do that again, no matter how overwhelmed Joyce gets.
I honestly consider Dorothy’s response to Joyce potentially being autistic as being misplaced but overall good intentioned. However, her reaction to Sarah’s suggestion that SHE might be autistic (replying with “I’m not autistic I UNDERSTAND people” in a rather disgruntled way) read to me as internalized ableism which, hey! I get it! A few years ago my best friend pointed out that I was stimming and I had a bit of an existential crisis over it. “What? No. I don’t stim. People with autism and ADHD stim, I’m not that. I don’t stim!!!”. I tried to force myself not to stim, and realized it was unpleasant and difficult. I had to think inwardly and I recalled when I was a kid and how I would do “random awkward movements” that were quickly called weird and derided. Over the years I slowly began to stim again, and had just never realized it was stimming all this time. Now I have a nice collection of fidget toys at my desk and I embrace who I am. Dorothy and Joyce will get there too, one day.
I’ll also admit that I’m not diagnosed with anything, however I am AFAB and an adult, and if we know anything from Joyce and Dina’s storylines about their autism it is that women (especially adult women) have a lower likelihood of being diagnosed. But, I did chat about it with my therapist and as soon as I suggested “I might have ADHD…” she IMMEDIATELY agreed.
Yep. Dorothy also reads as strongly autistic. Doesn’t mean she can’t say crappy things, but it does hit different when it’s not coming from an NT person.
Can be bad, but I hear it beats becoming a priest of Cybele.
More seriously, I met a girl in college who was preserving her vaginal virginity, only. Was reminded of her when I found the “Loophole” video. Religion makes people do strange stuff.
Bed sheets? Man, the way US schools do merch is so strange and fascinating. I checked my old university’s website and turns out they do sell tees and caps but I can’t recall seeing anyone ever wearing them.
In my case, there was a Wal-Mart very close to my college and they sold a lot of merch for it and I’m not… 100% sure how ‘official’ it would have been? And it was a full lil bedset too, sheets with the logos on it, comforter, pillow cases, the woiks! I did make sure to use it a lot the years I went there, and even a bit after too, but after a certain point post-grad it does feel weird to sleep on logos from your old school.
Good ole US; if it can be merchandized, they’ll do it.
Almost as common as “I technically have two sets of bedsheets since Mom sent me here with more than one, but the second set never comes out because I only think to change them when they need to be washed IMMEDIATELY.”
Dorothy could never be prepared because Dorothy was just as repressed as Joyce in a different way. Well, maybe not repressed. Not the right word…But she didn’t see this coming. She had convinced herself internally that she wasn’t allowed to be with Joyce. It took a mighty combination of her own bubbling trauma, a conversation with Jocelyne, her increased feeling of anxiety of her own desires, Joe’s urging, and Amber nudging, advice from Danny…A perfect storm of factors that made finally leaned Dorothy out of her own way.
That convo that Billie and Alice that Walky had is a perfect summation. Joyce being in love with Dorothy was always a given—it was Dorothy acting on her desires as she did and matching Joyce’s caution to the wind energy that was hard to believe.
And that’s why we have the increasingly chaotic romance with multiple ripples we do now.
He also told her to accept bi puns into her life, I guess that was technically advice.
It’s accurate to say that this conversation was a blow against Dorothy’s denial, but I think it’s a bit overstating things to call it Danny giving her advice at all, really.
He stated that bi people don’t accodentally cheat on people and told her not to send thirst traps (too late), but I don’t think that’s really advice that she either did or didn’t ignore, heh.
Oh, I agree with your comment more or less. 🙂 Dot responding by saying Dorothy had “completely ignored his advice”, though, struck me more as “I don’t remember that conversation being like that.” So I went link-hunting.
Danny didn’t give her any advice, but Danny did a good job at highlighting a lot of Dorothy’s flaws for the viewers: the condescending compassion, the need to right all the time, the denial and the cheating. I don’t think it was all that effective from Dorothy’s POV though.
I mean. I don’t think being in denial about your sexuality should really count as a character flaw. As for condescending compassion — well, that’s a valid enough interpretation, but her defensively saying that she’d practiced how to comfort people with light physical contact was extremely Dina, IMHO. Just about the most blatantly autistic line Dorothy has ever delivered.
That doesn’t always come across well to the other party, but deliberately condescending it is not.
It’s not just about her own sexuality. Dorothy’s life plan came crashing down because Raidah punctured her denial of what it would mean to be president, and she’s extremely determined to not acknowledge that she could be on the spectrum or that she might be all that great at talking to people.
And it was definitely condescending when she told Danny he was bi, there’s a reason he told her he didn’t want to hear it from her. maybe deserved condescension, but Danny wasn’t the first one involved to go to the ex and ask for an odd faovur about their new bf/gf.
I didn’t say it was “deserved”, I said it was unintentional. I don’t think Dorothy resented him for coming to talk to her…? I feel like we read these strips extremely differently. Here they are again:
Is this awkward? Sure. Was Dorothy trying to be kind? Yes, obviously.
Danny asked Dorothy where she fell on the Kinsey scale, she guessed “zero”, and he said, “Huh. No offense, but I — I think I’d rather hear all this from a non-zero, then.”
I think “Dorothy straightsplained bisexuality to Danny” was not a criticism Willis expected, and I think Danny sarcastically repeating Dorothy’s words back to her more recently is them being self-critical about that, but like. If you read those two strips and your takeaway is “Dorothy was being an asshole on purpose”, we have an irreconcilable difference of views on her character, to the point where I’m not sure it’s worth either of our time to continue discussing it.
I’m not saying she was being a deliberate jerk, I’m saying that she can be very condescending when trying to help someone, whether she’s aware of it or not. Which will hopefully come up again because we didn’t go much of anywhere when Joyce was complaining about everyone being all up in her business back in the birth control/autism spectrum plotline.
I mean. I wouldn’t hold my breath for that to go anywhere, given that Joyce was in debilitating pain and extremely hormonal, and that that is the only time she’s ever displayed even mild impatience with Dorothy’s mom-friend tendencies.
Could be wrong, but the very next time she saw Dorothy she was purely happy and excited to see her again, and Joyce has since characterized that whole thing as “learning to let each other say yes”.
I just don’t think Joyce has the same boundaries as some of the readership, and that Dorothy is not meant to be someone Joyce regards as controlling or annoying.
Someone upthread linked to an old Willis post, and yeah, this is one of those things that is very much autobiographical – speaking through Joyce (and before that, Shortpacked Leslie), unpacking their own trauma, how it formed them and their response to it.
Yeah, I’m feeling about the same. I think that it’s just so one note – hey, here’s Joyce again talking about how great her relationship with Dorothy is, and the only reaction I have for it is, yeah, we get it. We have Joe working through his feelings and something potentially interesting going on there, we have the whole thing with Becky and Dina and seeing how that’s playing out, we have Walky processing his emotions in his own peculiar way, heck even Carla is getting in on the introspection train and starting to show some character growth (which I am absolutely all here for!) – and yet we keep cutting back to Joyce talking about how in love with Dorothy she is. Yet again.
Now, this COULD be something pointing towards an unhealthy euphoric period for her, where her body is flooded with so many endorphins that she’s really not making sane decisions right now – but we’ve already gotten more than enough coverage on the couple to see that going on already, we don’t need to cut back to them gushing over each other YET AGAIN. It just feels like filler, and it’s wearing thin – especially when we keep getting glimpses of all these other interesting stories and bits of character growth going on around them, that we keep being told that no, we DON’T actually get to see how all of that drama is playing out. Joyce is happy, and we have to make sure you don’t forget it!
Even though I thoroughly adore Joyce as a character, and think that Joyce and Dorothy are great together, it is definitely wearing thin.
And even all that other growth, some of which is quite interesting, is all still directly tied to this arc – either directly to consequences of Joyce and Dorothy hooking up or at a step removed to the protest where they first did.
Other stuff that had been going on has vanished completely. For months of our time.
This is a strip that moves by it’s own clock and requires a certain amount of patience to read. Unfortunately, many of the readers here seem to have all the patience of a, a, a, um, a thing without much patience.
Joyce could follow an old advice from Dorothy, and start to follow some less hurtful befilef system, instead straight atheism.
Just imagine, Joyce being a Wiccan. Awkward, but I’m sure it will be rad.
I believe in Reality, but I also strongly believe we don’t live there. Religions can be fine, but you have to figure out for yourself how to navigate them.
I like scenes like this that show just so far Joyce still has to go. That New Atheist “fundie but without religion” stuff sure does hit hard. But at the same time, hey, we got the dawning of Joyce Brown, Pornlord.
Heck, I can’t even say I’ve let the religious stuff go. I mean, I don’t think about it much but my whole rationale for living as an out trans woman was/sorta is, well, better to be a woman for a short time on earth and a man in Hell, if it exists, than a man for all eternity.
Functionally it’s the same as “live as true as you can to yourself, be kind to others, and sure, maybe sleep around a bit and disappoint your parents in some ways” which, goodness, I hope is a moderately sane position to take. Getting out of that whole “eternal conscious torment, even if it doesn’t make sense, looms large in my psyche” is a trip.
I mean if she wasn’t recently incredibly religious I would see this as really good dirty talk. like I never got indoctrinated, and I would readily describe myself as defiled if it gets a partner wet
I’m a little confused. I thought Joyce was funny in this strip. It’s not dissimilar in tone from what I’ve heard from standup comics. But now I’m told repeatedly that this is self-loathing and shame, not just self-mockery, making fun of how afraid of sex she was told to be?
I dunno, maybe it’s just my neurodivergence cropping up again…
Frankly, it’s the switch in facial expressions from panel 3 to panel 5 that does it for me, as well as her response to Dorothy at the end being to mirror it back rather than a “well, duh!” or something more dismissive.
Could go either way, though — the humor or lack thereof in this kind of talk is SO dependent on tone and presentation.
(and that said, the other clue is that DOROTHY doesn’t seem to be taking it like a joke, even one that landed flat — her responses are the only serious clues we have as to what tone Joyce is using.)
As I said in a different reply, there’s some real strong kidding-not-kidding energy here. She’s trying to pass it off as a joke but it’s also something her brain is actually actively telling her that is legitimately stressing her that is needing to come out. Look at Joyce’s expression in the final panel where her smile is clearly strained and she’s looking aside. Look at how when it doesn’t land as a joke, Joyce doubles down and overexplains instead of shrugging off because it doesn’t matter. It *does* matter, because there’s something extremely real in her brain about it.
Context. You can say things in your standup comedy bit that get a laugh and are still real concerning to your therapist when you bring them up there. (Yes, true experience.)
I also don’t think Joyce is fully kidding– but even if she were, it’s still totally fair to not feel comfortable with your partner joking that they’ve been “permanently defiled” by having sex with you.
One thing I’m really appreciating about this storyline is how it illustrates the difference between guilt and shame. The terms are often used interchangeably, but guilt is feeling bad about what you do, and shame is feeling bad about what you are, and while there’s a lot of overlap between the two (which can’t really be litigated unless we somehow solve the question of what is the Self, and I’m not sure that’s going to happen any time soon), but the difference can be important, especially in terms of what you can and should do with each feeling (whether the one feeling it or the one attempting to bestow it).
Joyce might not be able to put the difference into words, but she’s definitely aware of it on some level, because her upbringing pretty much guarantees that they’re going to manifest as two different types of religious trauma. Meanwhile, in her minutes-ago encounter with Raidah, Raidah said she should feel shame when she really meant guilt (although she does ultimately want Joyce to feel shame, but she definitely wanted to say guilt). But she also never put into words what Joyce should feel bad about. If I had to venture a guess, that was for rhetorically tactical reasons, but that’s as may be.
Thing is, Joyce and Dorothy already do feel guilty for all the parts of this they should feel guilty about (or at least in Joyce’s case most of the parts she should feel guilty about). So when Raidah suggests that Joyce should feel shame for something she doesn’t currently feel shame/guilt over, but doesn’t say what it is, Joyce’s brain is going to pretty much automatically default to all the old stuff she felt shame about. Which, even though she now knows in her rational brain isn’t accurate, the rational part of our brains calls the shots a lot less than we’d like to admit.
Incidentally, this is also why Raidah’s actions were homophobic regardless of whether or not her intentions were. In addition to her willingness to weaponize the existence of societal homophobia to wield against someone she doesn’t like, she also triggered a queer woman’s religious trauma around her sexuality. And even if she didn’t mean to, she was definitely at the very least indifferent to it, because all the information in front of her was more than sufficient to conclude it might happen.
I agree that there is a difference between shame and guilt, without however agreeing that you’ve accurately captured that difference. You can certainly feel shame for your actions and that is different from feeling guilt for them.
Can I capture the difference. i don’t know.
I would say shame comes from not measuring up to the internalized model of the judgement of your community – Freud would say your parents, but i think it’s more general than that. By contrast, guilt comes from not measuring up to the internalized model of yourself as you would like to be, and doesn’t require the existence of other people to feel.
Silly? You think these are intentional jokes or just two people trying to figure out they need to practice communicating after a huge emotional leap? I don’t think Joyce is just having a goof, because things feel real awkward.
I think she is worrying about the “many a true word spoken in jest” factor here, but it’s also true that you can’t jump on that every time omeone says something or shows an insecurity in an inadvertant slip.
This is just once though, we don’t know if Dotty will make a habit of it.
Dorothy cringes at Joyce still expressing beliefs that Dorothy thought she had discarded already. Having grown up atheist, Dorothy probably doesn’t fully understand how incredibly deep the fundy brainwash goes. I’ve been there. It took me almost a decade to unlearn the harmful crap i grew up in. And even now, sometimes fundy concepts show up in unexpected ways. Unlearning is really hard work that isn’t done in a week.
Either Dorothy doesn’t get that and is frustrated at Joyce’s “relapse” or she gets it and is sad to witness how hard that is.
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“Dorothy, just let me have this!”
“…no?”
homeschooling is a helluva drug
I cannot believe Joyce having lesbian sex is the trigger for both Becky becoming an atheist and Joyce returning to Christianity.
The balance must be maintained.
Always one there is. Either master or apprentice. Fateful highways are a more common way to rectify the number than lesbian sex, but they’re also a lot less pleasant.
Hero cums, zero-sum
“In for a penny, in for a pounding.”
-Joyce Brown
I first heard that at a pagan Samhain gathering. Quite appropriate. 😀
Lol…..What…..what’s happening here?
Foreplay from dorks.
Dorkplay.
They are so close to joining a D&D group.
Joyce: I know you suggested we give D&D a try, but I thought that might be a little advanced. But I found a B&D group online and signed us up, that’s two letters lower so it’s probably the easier version.
Dorothy: ( ㆆ_ㆆ)
Joyce: Help me fill out these character sheets. Do you prefer whips or flails? And I guess the only armor available at our level is leather, that’s all that’s listed here.
Dorothy: ( ⊙ _ ⊙)
Only leather? Has that group never heard of latex?
Latex wouldn’t help with armor class, though.
which doesn’t always stop it from showing up in “AI”-plagiarized character artTo be fair, leather barely works as armour.
Sexy type? Yeah
Armor type? Much better.
Oh, proper leather armour works decently well.
Unfortunately it is not sexy at all. It also tends to be heavier than metal armour of equivalent protection.
Latex might cause an allergic reaction with one or two of the group. A group I know of has that issue. So they avoid it now.
Joyce eagerly shows up carrying a Black & Decker power tool set, nearly everyone there is horrified (and the other is intrigued).
Yeah, you don’t want Advanced D&D. That edition has been left behind long ago.
God, what I would give for a D&D arc instead of this mess.
I’d like that too. I really wanna see these characters in a fantasy setting. I just don’t think Willis is that into D&D.
Lucy is snooty about knowing all the D&D. All of it. Amber is snooty about knowing much better TTRPGs. Sal calls everyone dumb nerds but secretly watches Dumbiverse Avantris streams with wonderbread (but he better not talk or ask questions).
Insert funny Chick tract references. Dark Dungeons, heh.
May I suggest they skip the D&D tabletopping (“topping”…heeheehee) and get right into Larping? If ya gonna go for max dorkiness…
it seems Joyce has not circumvented the full effects of ingrained religious shame, it seems :0
Yeah this has a lot in common with Becky’s spiral after she and Dina did the deed for the first time. Joyce is determined not to care about going to hell, determined to not believe hell is real, but that’s still almost twenty years of training to go against.
(Worth noting that Becky had also decided hell wasn’t real before she and Dina had sex, and she tried to explain her feelings as not wanting to disappoint God. I think Joyce still has that feeling, even though in her case it’s less “God” than “my dad and my older siblings and maybe my grandparents”.)
“History repeats first as tragedy, then as farce”, except this time it’s degradation kink instead.
My “Already Damned For Not Believing So Might As Well Get My Money’s Worth” t-shirt is getting a lot of questions already answered by the t-shirt
yeeeeeep that’s D.O.F.S. if I’ve ever seen it
Dumbing Of Fucking Sheets?
Delayed Onset Fundie Shame :p
Well hey if ya got DOFS ya might as well hilariously riff on it!
I think she believes she’s over it and is trying to prove that by showing that she’s so far past it it’s a joke to her, and she didn’t get that that’s not who it would look to Dorothy which is why the joke flopped. Maybe she’s right or maybe it’s self-delusion, personally I can see it either way.
Another intpretations I see though is that she accepts that DOFS will be slow to heal but she’s found a workaround putting it inside a comedy wrapper. Either consciously or subconsviously.
Option 1: Hell exists
Result: Joyce is going there, so she might as well have lots of sex, so it’ll be more worth it.
Option 2: Hell does not exist
Result: Joyce can have all the sex she wants without any spiritual consequence
Conclusion: Joyce should have the sex
Ayup.
Add to that – any god who would deny her sex isn’t a god worth worshiping. Thus, there’s no reason to fear such a god – so she might as well have more sex.
Which is, incidentally, one of the reasons I worship Isis – a goddess who knows how to get her freak on and understands intimately the value of dildos.
Pun fucking intended.
I didn’t get the pun. Wouldst thou educate me please?
I also don’t get the pun
I’m guessing it has to do with the wooden cock Isis crafted for Osiris after Set had Osiris torn asunder.
So, she invented the strap-on, I guess?
Wonder if she decided to improve on the original in the process, and if so, whether this hurt Osiris’s pride.
With a wooden strap-on, it’s definitely not his pride Osiris should worry about getting hurt.
Nobody wants splinters anywhere, much less there.
An intimate understanding refers to a deep and thorough knowledge of a subject. To be intimate with someone (or something) can be a euphamism for sex.
Tan explained it.
And probably more succinctly than I would have.
What cruel God would give me the tools and desire to have sex and then deny me the privilege. Clearly even heaven must be a hell.
The Gnostics agreed with you.
Now see, a loving god who understood humanity would command them not to so that they would enjoy it more.
Flawless logic. *Applause*
Pascal’s Wager has gotten weird lately
IMO it was weird from the start.
…and deeply insulting to God
Discworld had its own version:
Ventre was the Quirmian philosopher (mentioned in Hogfather) who expounded the Discworld equivalent of Pascal’s Wager. He said, “Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it’s all true you’ll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn’t then you’ve lost nothing, right?”
When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, “We’re going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts…”
whereas I’ve always thought that a “belief” arrived at through logic and game theory, which “costs [you] nothing”, is one so shallow as to be meaningless. That’s no more than a proposition, a hypothetical, not something you feel to be true.
The Discworld gods agree with you. Other hand, it’s hard not to believe in them, or at least their existence – as Sir Pterry said, it’s difficult to be atheist when the gods come around on Saturday afternoons to throw rocks through atheists’ windows. (I also liked the witches’ attitude – sure the gods exist, but that’s no reason to go around believing in them. It’d be like believing in the postman.)
If I remember correctly Pascal actually addressed that in his writings. He wrote (again, this is from memory from a long time ago) that once you have logicked your way to realizing that being a believer is in your best self-interest, you should start *acting* like a believer, going to church, saying the right words, etc etc etc, and by osmosis or whatever you would start to *actually* believe, and that actual belief would count.
Of course it’s all nonsense anyway; Pascal was a great mathematician but a rubbish philosopher.
feels almost like a case-by-case contrapositive of Pascal’s wager
I always assume that if Hell exists then literally everyone is going. I just can’t imagine the average modern person reaches the standards to get to heaven.
Or as I like to call it. The Baby Cakes Theorem.
I am reminded of my namesake from “The Good Place”.
“I need hell to exist, but like, in a sexy way.”
— Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Actual RL laugh xD
lmao amazing ty
See also, John Milton, 1608-1674.
Fuck, that’s a better pull. Dante mostly burn-booked his contemporaries. Milton gave us ‘drew him real sexy like you asked’ Lucifer.
illustrated by Hieronymous Bosch
I guess there’s Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss.
Those might be advanced heathenism for Joyce, however. She only dropped her first f-bomb a little while ago, it’ll be half her vocabulary if she watches those shows.
Bet she’d like the songs, though.
“Poison” is the best song of Season 1 don’t @ me
I’d make an argument for “Hell is Forever”, but the Adam/Alex Brightman portion is only like a minute long, so I agree.
Wait, nevermind, I just remembered the Lucifer/Alastor song. “Hell’s Best Dad” definitely wins it for me.
I’m @ing @ you for the express purpose to tell you the best S1 song is, in fact, Respectless.
No votes for Loser, Baby yet, so I’m throwing in some support for that.
Also Oglaf, at least sometimes.
The devil really struggling to find a punishment for all the masochists down there.
Neglect.
She’s clearly snapped, at this point. So, she needs to get to work. Those billion dicks ain’t gonna suck themselves!
Here’s the Joyce reaction people were anticipating. She’s trying to in for a penny, in for a pound her way into Hell.
Heh
POUND HER
> pound her way into Hell.
Hell yeah, sister.
You can fit so much horny into this bad trauma [pats Joyce’s shoulder]
Uh huh…. three some with Joe?
“Speaking of which, clean sheets…” eye wiggles
Wuh-oh.
Last few days have convinced me that the hater containment thread does still need to exist and the problem children are back together so ⬇️ kvetch here
What does it say about me that I audibly sighed when I saw them in the comic
I dont even necessarily dislike the ship, I just think theres been too much focus on them and not enough on other characters
We got a decent size break from them this time but maybe ten strips next time
it says you don’t like two the plot around gettin together panned out. Totally natural reaction, given this whole arc’s. . . everything lol
I’d be a lot let hater-y if all the Joyrothy stuff was advancing a plot instead of sidelining it.
Look! They’re a couple now! Yeah, I figured that out from the first few dozen strips. Thanks for the heads-up. Now can we get back to Dina/Becky, or Billifer/Ruth/GirlWhoseNameIKeepForgetting, or the Joe/Sarah conversation from a little bit ago, or, or, or…
I sighed with my whole ass body.
I just don’t give a single fuck about anything going on with these two because NOTHING IS GOING ON with these two.
Someone mentioned Hazbin Hotel elsewhere, and in one of today’s episodes Carmilla goes, “I don’t have time for this lesbian drama.”, and now all I can think of is, “if you think wasting time on lesbian drama is bad, you should try having to put up with lesbian bore.”
same. i don’t even dislike them but please god can we see the other characters. like, i enjoyed the break! it was great! but these two returning may well mean like three weeks of cute couple antics and no updates on any of the other characters, who are going through stuff i’m much more interested in.
Always appreciate a good hater containment thread. Thanks, Dot
Is there a thread for those who are merely bored and/or tired?
That is also this thread!
Even if all you say is “I’m sick of these two, they’re saccharine and boring,” expect to still be treated (and mocked) by some as if you personally wish death on both characters!
Much like today’s comic, disliking Doyce is a binary for certain fans. The hater containment thread is the only solace. If you stay here, contained, “where you belong,” then you *might* not get called a homophobe.
Welcome to 2025, where even our echo chambers have echo chambers.
Everyone just loves being told that they’re inhuman homophobes who’re only allowed to post in one specific place lest they offend the good people with their existence.
Number one rule of the hater containment thread is that the girl who makes them is also a hater, so no, that’s not what’s being said.
Didn’t mean to point any of that bitterness at you, Dot. Thank you for this thread, it’s genuinely nice to have a place where I’m not (as likely to be) attacked for disliking a ship <3
If you wanna point me at some examples of people calling you a homophobe for not liking the ship, I will be happy to reply there in your defense. FWIW.
Always appreciate your levelheadedness, Li!
Heh, you’re welcome. It’s a silly thing to accuse people of just for not liking a ship!
Place your bets here. Does Joyce so much as mention Joe and the whole poly concept before 2026?
I bet three teabags, some coffee beans and a bottle cap on no!
To Dorothy? Nah. I think if anything we get one strip where Joyce bumps into Joe and cuts things off in no uncertain terms, and that’s the end of it. Maybe gives the blanket back or something too.
Only if she sees him or someone else mentions him. Joyce appears to have no object permanence.
It’s still nighttime, right? Trying to hedge the bet on whether or not Sarah is sleeping in her own bed tonight which means another confrontation, or she’s just gonna sleep at Tony’s and postpone it for tomorrow.
not here to hate on them; but I hate those sheets. That’s an ugly color for sheets. I hate them.
Hey there haters. So on a whim today I thought I’d make a poll that tries, as nicely as possible, see where the largest sticking points are for people when it comes to Doyce. Thought it might be nice to be able to see a chart that reflects the audience’s opinion.
Note that these questions do not necessarily reflect my opinions. I mostly tried to figure out the most common complaints I’ve been seeing.
https://strawpoll.com/eNg6vJXN8gA
You can use multiple selections cuz I know it’s never just ONE thing. And if it is something other feel free to type it out.
If this is successful I may make a Doyce LOVER poll.
Nice poll! I’m a bit surprised by early polling that my main complaint is actually agreed upon by most so far.
I see it has not taken very long for you to get some weird disturbing write in stuff.
very yikes stuff i’m not gonna acknowledge but shout out to the (milder but still) Brave Soldier out there implying that not liking dojo makes you abnormal
Thanks for letting me know. I’ll have to pop in now and then to edit those out :P.
Actually I’ll just eliminate the “Other” option for the time bein’. Sorry for the inconvenience :P. I guess I had too much faith in people to not abuse the opportunity!
Totally fair. That said I really appreciate the person who added “It was the most important platonic relationship in the strip and that’s fucked now.” because that’s one of the major factors of it for me and I wish I could +1 that.
Hard agree. I’m not sure there was any other previously platonic relationship that was as well established and central as that one.
Maybe? Joe and Dan??? Oh, well. Not central I guess. But well established.
Thank you. I think that the creepy one is causing folks some distress.
Yeah I feel a bit guilty. I only included it cuz I wasn’t sure if I had comprehensively included every possible option. Tried to see if there was a way to like…make it so I could see the other options first before adding them to the poll but since I couldn’t just decided to close it. If there’s a reason not on the poll I guess you can just tell me directly in the comment section or something 😛
Don’t feel guilty. Some people are just immature and compelled to ruin things. It’s the internet. We appreciate the spirit of what you tried and overall it seems like it’s a success. Putting it more generously than it deserves “cringe” like that is just a common pitfall.
You’d think more designers of polling etc. software would be aware that the Internet is the Internet and that allowing unmoderated text boxes to be posted where the public can see is asking for troubles.
It was “nice” of Yotomoe to leave that one in as a reminder that we the reasonable DoJo haters are quite often also the target of weird negativity/hostility.
I imagine the other option, which it sounds like was a violent threat of some sort, was probably so distracting that it made the passive-aggressive “I like them bc I’m normal” hard for Yotomoe to even spot among the other answers to delete.
Naw I saw it. I just left it in cuz while it seemed backhanded it didn’t feel SO rude that I felt it needed to be deleted. At least not as urgently as other stuff.
For what it’s worth, my first reaction to that was to giggle about 1 single person — 0.06% of the responders — claiming to be “normal”. Not shaming, that’s just not what “normal” means.
Yeah, I snarl at it because “you’re not normal” is a pretty vicious thing to say in a thread THIS full of neurodivergence, but for me personally it’s water off a duck’s back, y’know? I moderated a fanfiction forum for multiple years.
I sort of assumed he was leaving in the ones that weren’t egregious, since it’s not the only “other” option that survived.
Well none of the other “other” options were rude! That one definitely is, even if imho in a very impotent whiny way.
knowing whoever said that is just around in these comments makes me feel deeply unsafe in a way that “weird and disturbing” just doesn’t describe. and just further emboldens my feeling that this community encouraging all this hatred is attracting the worst kinds of people.
like fucking hell in a handbasket who do i have to fuck to unread that shit.
someone other than me needs to make a positivity thread. I’m a pariah and don’t want to get the heat i always get whenever i suggest someone be less awful, but someone else needs to start like encouraging good behavior instead of bad behavior because this kind of shit is panic attack inducing.
i need to not open this site for a long time now i think, binge the backlogs in a month or so, idk, this place has become hazardous to my health again
These people been around for a while. They usually get moderated out of existence if they try being in the comments section, but when Willis makes poll options for “I want insane body horror thing to occur” or whatever that’s what he’s making fun of/calling out.
Those people are assholes. They are tremendous outliers. And I imagine most of them would behave very differently if they conceived of anyone down here as having real personhood, but that tends to evaporate through the internet. Whomever they are, they cannot hurt you here, but they are disturbing. And they’re trying to be.
I’d like to back this thought up as well if it brings comfort to Megan. This comment section is curated and moderated. That kind of stuff isn’t allowed because despite what some think this isn’t a free space it’s Willis’ space. Creeps like that just lurk waiting for an opportunity to post cringe for attention. While this comment section does get pretty heated I find most that participate here regularly at least afford each other a bare minimum of respect in most interactions. We’re all just trying to chat about a dumb comic. You should feel safe. Do take a break if you need it. Even the frustration of arguing can be mentally taxing.
Put in my votes
Don’t trust polls.
(kidding, voted, thanks.)
Well made poll. I think you captured all of the major possible gripes without misrepresenting anybody!
Thanks for doing this. I’m interested in the results! (Most of them: not the weird aggressive write-ins tho)
I lmao’d at seeing “I liked Dorothy and Walky together” as literally the least voted non write-in option, even below “I’m just homophobic”.
Should’ve had an option for “I’m sad Dorothy dumped Walky instead of him growing a backbone, realizing he didn’t have the same romantic feelings for that he used to, and breaking things off himself.”
I’m still sad that Dorothy didn’t dump Walky himself and Joyce interrupted it. That could have been an amazing g conversation to cut back to multiple times without them making any progress.
Good poll. The only thing I might add as a response that wasn’t covered (granted, I checked I think 9 boxes) would be “I don’t like how badly intertwined the ‘cheating’ and ‘coming out’ stories are, it makes both storylines worse.”
I love Dorothy and Joyce, but the biggest drawbacks are the potential disruptions to Dorothy and Walky, and to a slightly lesser extent Joyce and Joe. They both qualify as sticking points, so I went there to see if they were listed and they were, but in a stronger form that I can agree with, so I returned without voting.
I hope the frequent “Dorothy gets weird about/scolds Joyce for expressing something not perfectly in line with her view of atheism after only two months of not believing in god” bits are going somewhere.
Because having half a relationship constantly policing what the other half says to ensure orthodoxy isn’t a great dynamic.
“Dorothy gets weirdly paternalistic in her relationships” is not a character flaw that’s likely to disappear anytime soon.
True. I’d love for someone other than Danny to acknowledge it tho.
Like my dream scenario is with the Asma bowling thing to have Danny show up with Sal, then Joyce makes a fundie joke which Dorothy “corrects.”
Then Danny makes a crack at Dorothy about being a control freak and advises Joyce she doesn’t have to put up with being talked down to / treated like a child. Cue something coming of it (Joyce reflecting on how she treated Dina?) and Asma then seeks out Alice to share the drama.
Willis appears to be reinstating the hater thread with some regularity now, at least. It was back as of an hour ago or so.
Wait. Seriously? Enough people are reporting Dot’s hater thread that it’s disappearing?
Tell me you’re joking.
Yes, it’s happened the last few times I’ve put it up.
I’ve heard that it happens automatically after a certain threshold, and needs to be manually reviewed and cleared. Not sure what the specifics are, but if so I appreciate the diligence to review and actively “allow,” for lack of a better word, a complaints-specific thread about your own comic.
Sweet it’s back, and of course they are back. I’m hoping for Sarah to come back soon.
‘As much as possible!’
‘With me.’
‘… As much as possible!’
What do you mean lesbian sex doesn’t cure religious trauma, what do you mean that hot kisses don’t solve everything
If lesbian sex isn’t gonna solve all my problems, I’m never transitioning.
It solves the problem of not having lesbian sex, at least
That’s only one problem, and I’m getting by well enough on non-binary sex so far, so it’s not an especially pressing one.
Lesbian sex is going to solve ALL your problems!! Or no money back!!!
I love a guarantee you can trust.
Joyce thank you for putting the dumb in dumbing of age <3
Hmm, Dorothy’s not loving the ex-fundie humor. Joyce is right in the last panel, though. They should definitely be doing as much sex as possible.
Also, this seems to imply that Joyce no longer considers the laundry room incident to be sex, since she appears to be referring to their Slipshine encounter as the time of her virginity loss/defilement.
After you have sex you realize that all your technically-not-sex were sex, and all you technically-sex were not sex.
I’d like to put my money on Dorothy’s post-nut clarity being that she can’t actually stand the words coming out of Joyce’s face when she’s not horned up.
Asterial, it may also be that Joyce considers virginity and sex to be related but still independent concepts with different edge case standards stemming from orthogonal definitions.
Please, Dorothy, please — show Joyce (politely) what “defenstration” means. She needs to experience it herself to fully understand.
Don’t trust defenestration
Currently experiencing unusual sensations that seem to be impacting my faculties of perception, will see if I have any coherent thoughts on this come the morrow
Hope you’re all good!
I fully believe Joyce agreed to being Joe’s girlfriend still and plans to sleep with him alongside Dorothy. I also believe she will completely not clear it with Dorothy first because she thinks anything done for love is alright because she’s an de-fundying and thus what feels good is good.
That’s a BOLD assumption, even for Joyce.
I’m intrigued.
Joyce has promised to continue the conversation with Joe and has not yet done so. She has absolutely not agreed to being Joe’s girlfriend still. This is a thing which did not happen. Please post a link if you believe otherwise.
As to what Joyce plans, that remains to be seen.
God i hope. That’d be fun.
Eh idk how the Joe situation will play out but I can definitely see an overcorrection where Joyce decides to go full hedonism because she’s traded one absolute for another.
If she wants to maximize the amount of sex she’s doing, she needs to start multitasking. None of this sex with only one person at a time nonsense!
That would be a interesting reversal, when Willis said they were going to write an arc about cheating, I initially assumed that would mean it would be a while before Joe found out about Joyce and Dorothy, but since that happened relatively quickly I wonder if the actual “cheating” the arc will actually be focused about will be about Joyce hiding her continued unbroken relationship with Joe from Dorothy. Makes me wonder if we the audience might end up not finding out the answer Joyce gave to Joe’s proposition (presuming it was a yes) until Dorothy discovers it herself?
No wait this would be amazing. Other than the way it would make the comments explode all over again.
I thought that whole Joyce giving Joe a bj instead of breaking up with him was gonna setup some crazy cheating shenanigans but I think the very negative reaction to even the lightest of cheating has probably pivoted the story away from any of that potential.
I doubt, very seriously, that Willis has pivoted anywhere wrt that story since they wrote it like months (maybe a year) ago
In fact they told us that they did a partial pivot on the BJ strip because they and Maggie both had concerns that people would react super negatively (as they began doing, the second stuff started happening), but then reinstated the original version of the strip because it felt worse to them to keep Joyce from doing that in that specific way.
(And also because as it came close to publish time, Maggie discovered a slew of gross commenters on the Reddit who were specifically whining about Joyce’s purity being besmirched and the loss of their waifu*, and she encouraged Willis to pull the trigger on the original version of the strip because screw that demographic of readers.)
* not all people on Reddit hold this POV, this is not a broad attack on people with more mild opinions
That’s interesting to know, considering the BJ was very much skimmed over in strip while hooking up with Dorothy was something we’ve been lingering on for a while. I get that it wouldn’t give Joyce the same kind of joy or euphoria, but I’d expect it to stick in her mind a bit more.
Maggie is way cool.
Not just because she drove with Amazi-Girl on her hood.
I firmly believe that Joyce does not actually remember the existence of Joe at all right now
Yup. She won’t remember Joe until she sees him again, at which point she’ll start slowly forgetting Dorothy exists.
Joyce is cheating on both of them with the other and her lack of sexual object permanence means she’s completely unaware of it.
It’s like Severance for infidelity.
I’m sure that there would be a market for that service.
My only problem with this claim is the line, “she’s an de-fundying and thus what feels good is good.”
A central tenant of Fundyness IS “what feels good is good, what feels bad is bad”. Fundy’s believe in an inherent God-Given Conscious. Which manifests as gut-reactions and feelings.
That is how they know stuff that makes them uncomfortable (for example: acknowledging systematic racism exists) is actually evil and Satanic.
And its how they know their own sins are compleateky forgivable foibles at worst.
I think you could pretty easily argue that your statement is true of the hypocritical class of fundies but Joyce has not generally shown herself to be anything other than sincere in most of her beliefs, preferring to change them rather than coast on “when I or my friends do it, it’s not REALLY a sin”.
Hence her Internet search when Becky showed up.
I love drama so I hope so. That would be hilarious.
Something can possibly doom her any further, only depends with time (lots of it)
Dumbing of Age: Permanently Defiled
…?! Is she building up to some kind of sub-manic episode?
Like I absolutely might be wildly misunderstanding this behavior, but I also mean this seriously.
(…Have they slept? I don’t recall. I know they showered.)
She’s buzzing from having sex for the first time (with an active partner) while fighting back against her programmed self loathing caused by what she’s trying not to think of as a major transgression, and it’s all getting jumbled so hard.
For years, including into my marriage when it should have been “fine”, I would actually physically vibrate with guilt after sex.
Screw Paul of Tarsus, that guy’s obsession with chastity is still ruining people’s lives two thousand years later.
I’d say getting fingered by Joe was ”with an active partner”.
Reasonable point, I’d forgotten about that.
Looking back, has this manic-ish episode been running since around that time?
Well in a world without antibiotics getting an STD meant you were completely screwed.
So to speak.
Syphilis wasn’t around yet. STDs were a lot less serious back in the ”biblical” days.
Perhaps but generally engaging in non-marital sex carried many risks, especially for the woman. There were diseases but there was also the risk of getting pregnant. Pregnancies were dangerous even when you had a support system, without it? The woman and her child were screwed.
Do you mean hypomanic when you say sub-manic?
Probably but I remembered that had a specific meaning and I was too exhausted to double check whether it was the right word so I made one up that I hoped would convey the right thing.
No, it was a genuine question. I’m not sure if hypomanic is the right word either, I’m just not exactly sure what sub-manic would be.
Oh the remnants of Christian moral panic is really starting to manifest now.
I don’t think Dorothy’s gonna be ready for this jelly.
Here I was thinking only Becky has a lot of confusing, contradictory feelings about the Jorothy development, but yeah, the fundie brain is strong for both of those involved. Get those feelings out! Verbalize your thoughts! Hopefully with a good friend who will understand what you mean with the things you say without judging you for saying them! (Poor Becky.)
Well I for one am impressed that Joyce is putting on her sheets while standing, and so easily.
this is definitely something that’s easier to do at 18-19 years old than at other times in life, but on the other hand, Joyce is not tall.
The Ruth Prophecy gets closer to reality.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/need-2/
Dorothy alone will not quench Joyce’s newfound hunger.
I clicked on that link and clicked on another comic link and eventually ended up back in 2011 and was this Joyce/Dorothy thing just planned from the start or something?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/hic/
https://www.tumblr.com/dumbingofage/789056686007730176/just-out-of-curiosity-willis-how-long-has-this
Next chapter, Joyce tries to apologize by asking Dorothy out to dinner.
This was never subtle.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/boo/
I chose to believe that this was planned from the beginning, Willis just didn’t start out knowing he was planning it.
It’s really been interesting to me, how people see “cheating.” How people seem to think “Well, Joyce kissed Dorothy while she was in a relationship with Joe, before telling him the next day, therefore Joyce is going to sleep with Joe, and hide it from Dorothy.”
It’s like there’s no spectrum, it’s just fully “this person is a cheater, therefore they are irredeemable, therefore they will do any kind of cheating with no warning.”
It kind of seems like fundie logic, in that way.
I think that probably has more to do with the spontaneous blowjob when she first went to break up with him.
In addition to what thejeff said, there’s also “Joyce demonstrated during the Jacob+Sarah+Joyce arc that she doesn’t actually care much about cheating as long as she thinks the right thing will happen in the end” — and even though she remonstrated to herself about that later, it’s seemingly gone out the window again.
To be clear, I don’t think she’s irredeemable, but I do think she’s showing a pattern at this point. Prior to her actually cheating on Joe I took the position of “she probably won’t, she learned that lesson” but now that she HAS done so (and followed up with the blanket blowjob) I kinda suspect we need to see some more growth from her before I will believe she’s going to stop haring off after whatever think currently feels most like Twue Wub.
TIL some people take mattresses off the bed to put on fitted sheets
I am somewhat confused, because it seems like a lot of extra work to have to haul it back up once you’ve got the sheet on with elevated beds like that and it strikes me like 50/50 that the sheet would come right back off
I think they’re doing it that way due to it being a lofted bed. They can’t exactly easily maneuver the sides without stools and there’s the chance of falling.
I don’t think I knew anyone in college who did that, it was about evenly split between
1) fuck it, as long as the corners are vaguely in place it’s good enough
2) I will bend up the corners of the mattress from the middle and scooch around to do one corner at a time until it’s all perfect (my personal choice)
3) fitted sheets are for people who have standards, I sleep in a pile.
I will say that the provided dorm mattresses when I was in school were light enough that Joyce’s method would be PLAUSIBLE.
Is it harder to remove the mattress and place the sheets on or to try and place sheets on while balancing on a narrow loft bed frame? I think either way this task is annoying but one way is at least safer.
Every dorm mattress I’ve ever had – and I had a lot – were thin enough that you could just kneel on the middle of the mattress and get the sheet around the corners just fine.
Many of my non-dorm mattresses too for that matter
maybe IU has a better grade of dorm mattress, in which case, you know, good on ’em
Relative ease is strongly dependent on mattress type. Stuff and light = this is the way. Heavy and floppy = time to figure out how to perch like a bird/I guess I sleep on the floor now/who needs sheets?.
who needs sheets?
yeah you’re never gonna get ’em
who needs sheets?
tell me what’s that fo-or
who needs sheets?
be happy that you gottem
there’s a dorm where the floor has been mattressed since the war
Right? I couldn’t believe I had to scroll this far to find this comment! What is she doing? I know getting sheets onto a bunkbed/loft isn’t easy, but I can’t imagine taking the entire mattress off is easier! I’ve put sheets on lofts and bunkbeds a lot of times in my life, and it literally never occurred to me to take off the mattress, because that would suck.
Depends on the bed, depends on the sheets, depends on the mattress. I’d never dream of doing it with the King foam mattress the wife and I have; that thing could crush a person if it stood on end like that. On the other hand, I can’t imagine changing my daughter’s twin traditional spring mattress on the bed; easier to take it off, put on the fitted sheet, and put back.
No fear of it coming off; the main reason you take the mattress off (other than convenience) is that you can get it evenly and snugly fitted on the mattress.
That must be a really lightweight mattress. I always have my bed in a corner and I definitely am on the bed while I put new sheets on. No way am I taking the whole mattress off and heaving it back up there.
I was surprised by this, too. I had lofted beds most of the time I was in the dorms and I never took it down to put the sheets on. I very likely would have knocked into stuff on my desk or the shelf between the beds and broken stuff. Like some others said, I just kneeled on the middle and pulled up the corners and put the sheet around.
Oh joyce… girl…
Yup, there’s the shoe.
I find there’s humorous irony that Becky has lost her faith over Joyce having sex and Joyce has suddenly slipped back into it habitually by having sex. Those two have the same sort of flaw in their belief system. It was never actually about the faith for either of them. There’s something there. Something worth not trusting but I’m not sure what that is.
Religious trauma probably.
Don’t trust sex!
That’s the center of the problem, isn’t it?
I think of it more as the quarterback of the problem.
I think it’s a really neat character trait that Joyce continually slips back into a religious mindset when she’s stressed or just really wired. Her quoting the Book of Ruth before running after Dorothy at the protest is another great example. She keeps correcting herself because she doesn’t really believe in G-d anymore but when you live your whole life by a particular system, it’s understandable to sometimes fall back into it when you need some comfort or something solid to grab onto. These kinds of breaks are rarely clean or immediate.
I didn’t realize how much I missed this. Some classic Dorothy and Joyce, without… I don’t know, pick a thing.
The Head Alien?
Oooh. See, this is one of the things I like about Joyce and Joe. Joe’s REALLY good at talking Joyce through her insecurities, while Dorothy is a bit more judgmental / how can I fix this. (Note, in case it needs to be said: I’m not against this whole storyline. This is not a “My ship sank, fuck everything!”, this is a “Ooh, after the high of seeing how cute these two are together, now we’re get to see the pros and cons of the couple, which is going to cause drama, and I’m heating my popcorn. :)”
Wait until Joyce sees Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss!!!
“nothing can doom me any further”
sweet summer child
well, “doom” maybe not, in the sense of non-existent hellfire
blow your mind and maybe other things, though
buttsex
BDSM
petplay
lots more thresholds of notional defilement
heck, she hasn’t even done penis in her VJ yet, has she
Important context for today’s strip. (Scroll to Willis’s response at the end.)
“This is a totally normal thing which everyone has done/experienced, right? … right?”
Far more common, in my own experience, is the mix of horrified and sympathetic reactions from everyone else, trying to explain to the person with scars from their fucked-up upbringing that no, actually…
I mean. That is very much gonna depend on the group of friends.
Also, I hope the sympathy and horror is coming from the upbringing and not as a reaction to someone just being into tragic sexy lesbians. It’s not my personal cup of tea but I know enough people who are way into that, and would not appreciate condescending sympathy regarding their favorite shipping tropes.
Nah, I’m talking about when someone casually mentions some awful thing that happened/was done to them, and then goes “why are you all looking at me like that?” (Which I have personally witnessed three times, and heard of several more.)
New gay software might have been installed on it but that brain is still the same old fundie hardware.
maybe God doesn’t exist but Pascal’s wager does
Ahhh, the american evangelical framework of self-evaluation, hard to remove from oneself, at least from everything I’ve heard and seen.
Reminds me of this post by Typewriter Monke
Well, unlike Ruth’s prediction, it doesn’t involve bedding half the campus. Only 2 people 😀
Only two people, so far.
Give her time. She’s in college, there’s still plenty of time for her to do just that.
I’m now waiting for Joyce to demand Dorothy to make her an “honest woman.”
Now that’s some classic Joyce.
Also: insane way to put sheets on a mattress but probably easier to frame a scene around?
Ruth wasn’t 100% correct, but damn, was she so correct. 😛
o3o Not sure if this is just someone abusing the report system once again or not but JUST in case gonna repost the now curated version of my Doyce Disliker Poll. Feel free to drop in ideas for a Doyce Liker poll too, I’ll do that next.
https://strawpoll.com/eNg6vJXN8gA
Oh right the backstory is gone too.
Basically I remember a while back we were talking about the site polls and how I think what caused a lotta frustration was that some people felt unrepresented or misrepresented by the options. So I wanted to make something that took most of the more common complaints I’ve been seeing into account and curating in one place.
I had “other” options turned on at first but some edgelords put some upsetting answers on there so I had to delete them and turn it off. But if you feel like I haven’t represented your position or specific feelings let me know and I can add it manually. And as always be kind
Rewind.
If I could add an option, I’d like to have put:
“I like the pairing, but the cheating part not being addressed yet is causing it to wear on me”
Because we have had repercussions (Becky lashing out, Joe’s heart break, etc.) so it’s different from the “I like cheating but no repercussions” response, but none of the other answer combos really fit it either. Basically, I’d be more on board if Joyce remembered Joe’s request and either asked Dorothy about a throuple or it was made clear Joyce either forgot or intentionally is trying to have two relationships at once without Dorothy’s knowing. The lack of confirmation on which way that is going is basically make it drag on for me and lose the luster, ya know?
Aaand I replied to the wrong comment -.- Least it was correct person
Naw this was the right place. Added “I don’t like the hanging thread of the polycule not being addressed” which seems more in tune with your issue?
Yeah, that addresses it, thanks
There have been consequences, but few have landed on the people most responsible (IMO). They get to walk through the center of the chaos, happy and untouched by it (through the grace of Willis), while everyone else has to deal.
I don’t think it was abusing the report system if we choose to take things in good faith. Some people took advantage of your idea as an opportunity to post hate and that upset readers. It kinda sucks that people are like that.
To keep things more positive I like the poll and think it accurately reflects the consensus on the issues with the Doyce development. Here’s hoping it stays this time.
Wait how do I do Other like others did I can’t find that in the options
Oh turned off missed that before. Gimme a minute to type that in response to you
All mass reporting the containment thread is gonna do is make it redundant and turn it all free-range again.
Anyways, good poll. Only suggestion is the options about cheating have one be “I don’t like cheating plots at all” and the other be “I don’t like how little fallout has come from the cheating plot” or something. Because I don’t like cheating plots, but if it was actually done well I could hold my nose – but having the option say “I like cheating” was a bit much for me to click on lol.
Understandable. Changed to your wording <3
What? Dot’s HCT got deleted again? I’m thinking this is deliberate.
Does that person realize that if the HCT keeps getting nuked, people will just post all over the comments and it may cause Willis to just lock comments for months, if not until the comic is over (since he said this relationship is end game)?
Eh, people are gonna post their negativity regardless of whether or not there’s a “containment” thread. It doesn’t really matter if it’s all up and down the comments section or if it’s localized entirely within one person’s reply chain, I don’t have any faith that people are toning their comments down in either scenario.
My sleep schedule these days makes it hard for me to wake up early enough to see the HCT before it gets nuked most days, but the times I have seen it, it’s been very mild criticisms. I’m starting to think some folks just don’t want to see any criticism of Doyce at all in these comments.
Oh, that’s been there since the start of this whole mess.
For the Doyce-liker poll I’d like an equivalent for one of the hater options “drama outside the comic made them more enjoyable”
Yeah the containment thread now gets reported away with consistency. I know it’s not Willis putting their thumb on the scale because they’ve talked about restoring it after it gets reported away before, it’s some asshole who is abusing the reporting system. I have my suspicions as to which specific assholes it might be but I’m not gonna stir the pot baselessly.
I think a lot of the supposed vitriol in the containment thread is misrepresented. I read the comments too. Most of the conversation in the thread is about not liking the story or characters. Valid critiques even if some expectations of the comic are unreasonable or biased. So constantly reporting your thread does seem like someone acting in bad faith.
Does seem like it’s back now so that’s good. Thanks, Dave!
That’s the thing, ain’t it — the containment thread rejects actual bigots and misogynists just as hard as the rest of the comment section.
I’ve been more and more split on “hater thread getting mass reported by the worst DoJo enjoyers” vs. “hater thread getting mass reported by the actual homophobes/assholes who hate that Dot’s hater thread is a place for REASONABLE dislike.”
Part of it is, it doesn’t even need to be mass reported (as in, by many people)– it would just take one person putting in effort to report it numerous time.
That’s also true — I’m not sure how it tracks who has or has not done an action, but it’s not “IP address” since the poll will register as “you haven’t voted yet” on my phone even after I voted on my desktop.
So if it’s a cookie or something, in theory one person with a sufficient amount of determination could do it in a couple minutes.
Update: it’s definitely a cookie, at least it CLAIMS to have let me report my own comment multiple times from the same machine.
Well, I really wish that this wasn’t common knowledge now. I’d use the trick to delete it, but I’m far too lazy.
But kudo’s on the investigation.
There were, admittedly, a LOTTA people who were DoJo haters but didn’t like the idea that their complaints “had to” be confined (despite no rule saying they had to at all, it was just a kinda polite option Dot offered everyone).
There were, but none of them seemed to care about whether or not they posted in the hater thread, just resentful of the idea they SHOULD, so I’m less inclined to think they are at fault here.
I felt a little of that, back when I cared. But now it’s all cooled to a bland porridge of “meh” *shrug*
A reminder, if you needed one, of the saying that the true opposite of love/hate is apathy/disengagement/indifference.
Totally fair, I think it’s probably a mix personally but it’s silly no matter what.
Still not told Dorothy about Joe? Okay then.
And it’s been hours!
Far as I can reconstruct the timeline, the thing with the newspaper happened this morning, and we’re getting almost to dinner time. I know it’s been weeks for us, but…
It’s not how long it’s been that matters, it’s what’s happened.
If she’s decided she’s not interested in the poly thing, then it’s no big deal. If she is or is even seriously considering it, then it’s a big question that should have been cleared up before they proceeded farther in their relationship.
Preferably before she dumped Walky for Dorothy, but hey.
Dorothy, let your girlfriend enjoy the feeling of having engaged in an irrevocable transgression, she’s only going to get that once.
This.
She’s on a highway to Hell!
Really hope Dorothy’s constant attitude to Joyce any time she says anything remotely Not Atheist ™ is leading up to something. Like let her have a different interpretation of what sex is to you. Or make a joke out of her lifetime of repressive experiences she’s only gotten past in the last couple of months ffs.
And having half a relationship constantly policing the other for lapses in orthodoxy isn’t a great dynamic.
I mean, I’m of the idea that Dorothy’s abelism is going to come back in a big way.
Dorothy’s ableism?
I’m not doubting you at all, it’s just my brain has been so distracted by all this that it kinda dumped a lot of what Dorothy and others have done wrong as a cache overflow protection
I hesitate to call it definitely ableism over being too much of a busybody, but there was the bit when Joyce went on birth control and got told she might be autistic where she was real sick of everyone trying to run her life for her. And Dorothy will absolutely do that again, no matter how overwhelmed Joyce gets.
I honestly consider Dorothy’s response to Joyce potentially being autistic as being misplaced but overall good intentioned. However, her reaction to Sarah’s suggestion that SHE might be autistic (replying with “I’m not autistic I UNDERSTAND people” in a rather disgruntled way) read to me as internalized ableism which, hey! I get it! A few years ago my best friend pointed out that I was stimming and I had a bit of an existential crisis over it. “What? No. I don’t stim. People with autism and ADHD stim, I’m not that. I don’t stim!!!”. I tried to force myself not to stim, and realized it was unpleasant and difficult. I had to think inwardly and I recalled when I was a kid and how I would do “random awkward movements” that were quickly called weird and derided. Over the years I slowly began to stim again, and had just never realized it was stimming all this time. Now I have a nice collection of fidget toys at my desk and I embrace who I am. Dorothy and Joyce will get there too, one day.
I’ll also admit that I’m not diagnosed with anything, however I am AFAB and an adult, and if we know anything from Joyce and Dina’s storylines about their autism it is that women (especially adult women) have a lower likelihood of being diagnosed. But, I did chat about it with my therapist and as soon as I suggested “I might have ADHD…” she IMMEDIATELY agreed.
Yep. Dorothy also reads as strongly autistic. Doesn’t mean she can’t say crappy things, but it does hit different when it’s not coming from an NT person.
The problem here is that this has strong kidding-not-kidding energy.
If it was an *actual* joke, that’d be a different story.
on the other hand, it doesn’t feel great when your sex partner seems to feel guilty for being your sex partner
Oh, the perils of dating while (recovering) Serious Christian.
Been there from both sides, and it’s not great!
Can be bad, but I hear it beats becoming a priest of Cybele.
More seriously, I met a girl in college who was preserving her vaginal virginity, only. Was reminded of her when I found the “Loophole” video. Religion makes people do strange stuff.
…is that a stack of, like, *fifty* magazines by the door?
Newspapers.
So … she only has one set of sheets?
That seems pretty normal for living in a dorm. Not a lot of storage. Plus 18 year olds are not known for their excellent housekeeping skills.
I only got a second bedset for my dorm because my mom bought me a bed set with my school’s colors and logos on it for my birthday LMAO
Bed sheets? Man, the way US schools do merch is so strange and fascinating. I checked my old university’s website and turns out they do sell tees and caps but I can’t recall seeing anyone ever wearing them.
No insult to your mum meant though! Her enthusiasm, while misguided, is very sweet.
In my case, there was a Wal-Mart very close to my college and they sold a lot of merch for it and I’m not… 100% sure how ‘official’ it would have been? And it was a full lil bedset too, sheets with the logos on it, comforter, pillow cases, the woiks! I did make sure to use it a lot the years I went there, and even a bit after too, but after a certain point post-grad it does feel weird to sleep on logos from your old school.
Good ole US; if it can be merchandized, they’ll do it.
Almost as common as “I technically have two sets of bedsheets since Mom sent me here with more than one, but the second set never comes out because I only think to change them when they need to be washed IMMEDIATELY.”
As we say down here in the South, bless her heart…
I’m surprised that Dorothy wasn’t better prepared for these kinds of reactions. Didn’t Joe specifically consult Dina on what to expect with first time sex with the religious raised? Research was always Dorothy’s thing
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/dapper-2/
In another side, I’m happy Dorothy wasn’t prepared.
As christianity is the biggest creed in USA, a person that doesn’t have so much contact with them is an interesting plot to me.
Dorothy could never be prepared because Dorothy was just as repressed as Joyce in a different way. Well, maybe not repressed. Not the right word…But she didn’t see this coming. She had convinced herself internally that she wasn’t allowed to be with Joyce. It took a mighty combination of her own bubbling trauma, a conversation with Jocelyne, her increased feeling of anxiety of her own desires, Joe’s urging, and Amber nudging, advice from Danny…A perfect storm of factors that made finally leaned Dorothy out of her own way.
That convo that Billie and Alice that Walky had is a perfect summation. Joyce being in love with Dorothy was always a given—it was Dorothy acting on her desires as she did and matching Joyce’s caution to the wind energy that was hard to believe.
And that’s why we have the increasingly chaotic romance with multiple ripples we do now.
I like how you mention advice from Danny as a factor as if she didn’t completely ignore that advice.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/clearnow/
Is this advice??
He also told her to accept bi puns into her life, I guess that was technically advice.
It’s accurate to say that this conversation was a blow against Dorothy’s denial, but I think it’s a bit overstating things to call it Danny giving her advice at all, really.
He stated that bi people don’t accodentally cheat on people and told her not to send thirst traps (too late), but I don’t think that’s really advice that she either did or didn’t ignore, heh.
Yeah okay I was deeply misremembering this as advice.
Her knowing she’d already gone this far though…
Oh, I agree with your comment more or less. 🙂 Dot responding by saying Dorothy had “completely ignored his advice”, though, struck me more as “I don’t remember that conversation being like that.” So I went link-hunting.
Danny didn’t give her any advice, but Danny did a good job at highlighting a lot of Dorothy’s flaws for the viewers: the condescending compassion, the need to right all the time, the denial and the cheating. I don’t think it was all that effective from Dorothy’s POV though.
I mean. I don’t think being in denial about your sexuality should really count as a character flaw. As for condescending compassion — well, that’s a valid enough interpretation, but her defensively saying that she’d practiced how to comfort people with light physical contact was extremely Dina, IMHO. Just about the most blatantly autistic line Dorothy has ever delivered.
That doesn’t always come across well to the other party, but deliberately condescending it is not.
It’s not just about her own sexuality. Dorothy’s life plan came crashing down because Raidah punctured her denial of what it would mean to be president, and she’s extremely determined to not acknowledge that she could be on the spectrum or that she might be all that great at talking to people.
And it was definitely condescending when she told Danny he was bi, there’s a reason he told her he didn’t want to hear it from her. maybe deserved condescension, but Danny wasn’t the first one involved to go to the ex and ask for an odd faovur about their new bf/gf.
I didn’t say it was “deserved”, I said it was unintentional. I don’t think Dorothy resented him for coming to talk to her…? I feel like we read these strips extremely differently. Here they are again:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/bisexual/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/kinsey/
Is this awkward? Sure. Was Dorothy trying to be kind? Yes, obviously.
Danny asked Dorothy where she fell on the Kinsey scale, she guessed “zero”, and he said, “Huh. No offense, but I — I think I’d rather hear all this from a non-zero, then.”
I think “Dorothy straightsplained bisexuality to Danny” was not a criticism Willis expected, and I think Danny sarcastically repeating Dorothy’s words back to her more recently is them being self-critical about that, but like. If you read those two strips and your takeaway is “Dorothy was being an asshole on purpose”, we have an irreconcilable difference of views on her character, to the point where I’m not sure it’s worth either of our time to continue discussing it.
I’m not saying she was being a deliberate jerk, I’m saying that she can be very condescending when trying to help someone, whether she’s aware of it or not. Which will hopefully come up again because we didn’t go much of anywhere when Joyce was complaining about everyone being all up in her business back in the birth control/autism spectrum plotline.
I mean. I wouldn’t hold my breath for that to go anywhere, given that Joyce was in debilitating pain and extremely hormonal, and that that is the only time she’s ever displayed even mild impatience with Dorothy’s mom-friend tendencies.
Could be wrong, but the very next time she saw Dorothy she was purely happy and excited to see her again, and Joyce has since characterized that whole thing as “learning to let each other say yes”.
I just don’t think Joyce has the same boundaries as some of the readership, and that Dorothy is not meant to be someone Joyce regards as controlling or annoying.
Joyce, I know you’re making jokes but… is this coming from somewhere real?
A lifetime of religious guilt/programming is not so easily undone, let’s put it that way.
Someone upthread linked to an old Willis post, and yeah, this is one of those things that is very much autobiographical – speaking through Joyce (and before that, Shortpacked Leslie), unpacking their own trauma, how it formed them and their response to it.
A defiled Dorothyphile
Man, as a lover of wlw, I’m starting to get less interested and wanting to see Joe back.
Yeah, I’m feeling about the same. I think that it’s just so one note – hey, here’s Joyce again talking about how great her relationship with Dorothy is, and the only reaction I have for it is, yeah, we get it. We have Joe working through his feelings and something potentially interesting going on there, we have the whole thing with Becky and Dina and seeing how that’s playing out, we have Walky processing his emotions in his own peculiar way, heck even Carla is getting in on the introspection train and starting to show some character growth (which I am absolutely all here for!) – and yet we keep cutting back to Joyce talking about how in love with Dorothy she is. Yet again.
Now, this COULD be something pointing towards an unhealthy euphoric period for her, where her body is flooded with so many endorphins that she’s really not making sane decisions right now – but we’ve already gotten more than enough coverage on the couple to see that going on already, we don’t need to cut back to them gushing over each other YET AGAIN. It just feels like filler, and it’s wearing thin – especially when we keep getting glimpses of all these other interesting stories and bits of character growth going on around them, that we keep being told that no, we DON’T actually get to see how all of that drama is playing out. Joyce is happy, and we have to make sure you don’t forget it!
Even though I thoroughly adore Joyce as a character, and think that Joyce and Dorothy are great together, it is definitely wearing thin.
And even all that other growth, some of which is quite interesting, is all still directly tied to this arc – either directly to consequences of Joyce and Dorothy hooking up or at a step removed to the protest where they first did.
Other stuff that had been going on has vanished completely. For months of our time.
This is a strip that moves by it’s own clock and requires a certain amount of patience to read. Unfortunately, many of the readers here seem to have all the patience of a, a, a, um, a thing without much patience.
Patience tends to run out after 4 months of repetitive garbage
Same. I feel like the “Joyce had sex and is squeeing about it” arc has run its course.
Joyce could follow an old advice from Dorothy, and start to follow some less hurtful befilef system, instead straight atheism.
Just imagine, Joyce being a Wiccan. Awkward, but I’m sure it will be rad.
Taoist Joyce arc
…less hurtful belief system?
I believe in Reality, but I also strongly believe we don’t live there. Religions can be fine, but you have to figure out for yourself how to navigate them.
Dorothy, you knew what you were- getting into
WHO she was getting into, more to the point.
Joyce isn’t sure if it’s a red line, or black line, or rainbow-spectrum pride line, but she SURE AS HECK has crossed that line!
*triangle smiles
I like scenes like this that show just so far Joyce still has to go. That New Atheist “fundie but without religion” stuff sure does hit hard. But at the same time, hey, we got the dawning of Joyce Brown, Pornlord.
Heck, I can’t even say I’ve let the religious stuff go. I mean, I don’t think about it much but my whole rationale for living as an out trans woman was/sorta is, well, better to be a woman for a short time on earth and a man in Hell, if it exists, than a man for all eternity.
Functionally it’s the same as “live as true as you can to yourself, be kind to others, and sure, maybe sleep around a bit and disappoint your parents in some ways” which, goodness, I hope is a moderately sane position to take. Getting out of that whole “eternal conscious torment, even if it doesn’t make sense, looms large in my psyche” is a trip.
I see we’re at the point where she’s realized she has joke material but not at the point where she’s capable of making the jokes land
Joyce: “Those sheets are clean now. Love the yellow color.”
Dorothy: “… But they were white?”
“Well yeah, but I put a bunch of yellow dye in there too, to clean it.”
We should have a Futurama-esque trip of Joyce and Dorothy to Robot Hell.
I mean if she wasn’t recently incredibly religious I would see this as really good dirty talk. like I never got indoctrinated, and I would readily describe myself as defiled if it gets a partner wet
I’m a little confused. I thought Joyce was funny in this strip. It’s not dissimilar in tone from what I’ve heard from standup comics. But now I’m told repeatedly that this is self-loathing and shame, not just self-mockery, making fun of how afraid of sex she was told to be?
I dunno, maybe it’s just my neurodivergence cropping up again…
Why not both?
Frankly, it’s the switch in facial expressions from panel 3 to panel 5 that does it for me, as well as her response to Dorothy at the end being to mirror it back rather than a “well, duh!” or something more dismissive.
Could go either way, though — the humor or lack thereof in this kind of talk is SO dependent on tone and presentation.
(and that said, the other clue is that DOROTHY doesn’t seem to be taking it like a joke, even one that landed flat — her responses are the only serious clues we have as to what tone Joyce is using.)
As I said in a different reply, there’s some real strong kidding-not-kidding energy here. She’s trying to pass it off as a joke but it’s also something her brain is actually actively telling her that is legitimately stressing her that is needing to come out. Look at Joyce’s expression in the final panel where her smile is clearly strained and she’s looking aside. Look at how when it doesn’t land as a joke, Joyce doubles down and overexplains instead of shrugging off because it doesn’t matter. It *does* matter, because there’s something extremely real in her brain about it.
I think she’s trying to joke, but some of what she’s saying does still reflect feelings she has, even if she intellectually knows better.
Context. You can say things in your standup comedy bit that get a laugh and are still real concerning to your therapist when you bring them up there. (Yes, true experience.)
I also don’t think Joyce is fully kidding– but even if she were, it’s still totally fair to not feel comfortable with your partner joking that they’ve been “permanently defiled” by having sex with you.
One thing I’m really appreciating about this storyline is how it illustrates the difference between guilt and shame. The terms are often used interchangeably, but guilt is feeling bad about what you do, and shame is feeling bad about what you are, and while there’s a lot of overlap between the two (which can’t really be litigated unless we somehow solve the question of what is the Self, and I’m not sure that’s going to happen any time soon), but the difference can be important, especially in terms of what you can and should do with each feeling (whether the one feeling it or the one attempting to bestow it).
Joyce might not be able to put the difference into words, but she’s definitely aware of it on some level, because her upbringing pretty much guarantees that they’re going to manifest as two different types of religious trauma. Meanwhile, in her minutes-ago encounter with Raidah, Raidah said she should feel shame when she really meant guilt (although she does ultimately want Joyce to feel shame, but she definitely wanted to say guilt). But she also never put into words what Joyce should feel bad about. If I had to venture a guess, that was for rhetorically tactical reasons, but that’s as may be.
Thing is, Joyce and Dorothy already do feel guilty for all the parts of this they should feel guilty about (or at least in Joyce’s case most of the parts she should feel guilty about). So when Raidah suggests that Joyce should feel shame for something she doesn’t currently feel shame/guilt over, but doesn’t say what it is, Joyce’s brain is going to pretty much automatically default to all the old stuff she felt shame about. Which, even though she now knows in her rational brain isn’t accurate, the rational part of our brains calls the shots a lot less than we’d like to admit.
Incidentally, this is also why Raidah’s actions were homophobic regardless of whether or not her intentions were. In addition to her willingness to weaponize the existence of societal homophobia to wield against someone she doesn’t like, she also triggered a queer woman’s religious trauma around her sexuality. And even if she didn’t mean to, she was definitely at the very least indifferent to it, because all the information in front of her was more than sufficient to conclude it might happen.
I agree that there is a difference between shame and guilt, without however agreeing that you’ve accurately captured that difference. You can certainly feel shame for your actions and that is different from feeling guilt for them.
Can I capture the difference. i don’t know.
I would say shame comes from not measuring up to the internalized model of the judgement of your community – Freud would say your parents, but i think it’s more general than that. By contrast, guilt comes from not measuring up to the internalized model of yourself as you would like to be, and doesn’t require the existence of other people to feel.
We might be operating under two different frameworks for what guilt and shame are, but I think both are valid.
I don’t get Dorothy’s reactions. Like, what exactly is she trying to accomplish here? Let her be silly.
Silly? You think these are intentional jokes or just two people trying to figure out they need to practice communicating after a huge emotional leap? I don’t think Joyce is just having a goof, because things feel real awkward.
I think she is worrying about the “many a true word spoken in jest” factor here, but it’s also true that you can’t jump on that every time omeone says something or shows an insecurity in an inadvertant slip.
This is just once though, we don’t know if Dotty will make a habit of it.
Dorothy cringes at Joyce still expressing beliefs that Dorothy thought she had discarded already. Having grown up atheist, Dorothy probably doesn’t fully understand how incredibly deep the fundy brainwash goes. I’ve been there. It took me almost a decade to unlearn the harmful crap i grew up in. And even now, sometimes fundy concepts show up in unexpected ways. Unlearning is really hard work that isn’t done in a week.
Either Dorothy doesn’t get that and is frustrated at Joyce’s “relapse” or she gets it and is sad to witness how hard that is.
Two steps forward, one step back.
Change takes time.
i understand the “this is freeing“ part. it’s a next step to not think of virginity as real or important in the first place.
Remember when Sarah predicted that Joyce was going to snap and go on a sexual hurricane at some point?