As someone who had a relatively low crisis of faith, I will say that it always hurt me more to watch friends deal with loss of faith more. Mainly because; while I could rationalize it to myself, I never felt that I could comfort them as mich as they really needed.
Over time I’ve realized that at least being there for them is enough, but in the moment its still gut wrenching.
Honestly, I’m considerably more impressed and invested with this storyline than Joyce’s rn. I think if Dorothy can communicate any of this to Joyce, though, we’re gonna see some positive development for a change. Perhaps.
sadly Joyce/Dorothy is the least interesting plotline at the moment, which is a shame because they’re some of the most important characters and they’ve historically been a lot better
I hope the Joyce / Dorothy storyline is at least building up to something. It dragged badly for me, as I don’t find them cute or interesting together (nothing against the people who enjoy them, I’m glad it’s working for you).
I’m here for character development and hijinks. Becky facing the fact that she doesn’t actually believe in god anymore is interesting, as is this moment of facing up to an uncaring cosmos.
As an atheist I don’t personally feel hopeless or disillusioned at all. The universe is wonderous, and being alive is interesting. Nothing you were or did is lost. All those moments you’ve lived through are real, even after nobody remembers them anymore. We are enough. The world is enough.
That’s how I feel, too, but I didn’t spend my childhood being promised, in endless detail, that heaven would be super great, and my loved ones would all hug me again there, and that the biggest point of even being alive is getting into that heaven.
Like, I’m in a group where non-Jews ask us questions, and Jews answer, and Christians *frequently* ask, what’s the point of religion without a strong concept of heaven. That’s how central heaven is to them, that they can’t think of any other purposes to religion without it.
So, never really having that promise seems way different from independently losing it, and effectively having your mom die again (and it’s perma-death this time).
As an atheist who wasn’t raised religiously, I feel like the universe is uncaring and meaningless, and death without an afterlife is terrifying beyond my ability to convey. In fact, it gives me panic attacks if I think too hard about it. So it takes all kinds of atheists, I suppose.
This, more than anything else, has been their curse to bear narratively. That said, I will happily second Nono up there in equal sentiment that it is still better than many of the alternatives we’ve been shown.
Its happening because of the immense amount of Trauma that her religious background has forced her to repress. She snapped and it all came out at once in a barrage of self hate, self doubt, and pure sadness.
As she told Dorothy, her and Joyce dating is not the cause of this, its her own emotions and traumas that caused this. The more Devoted a religious person is, the harder they crash out if something happens that makes them lose faith, we have seen it many times. Her Blind Faith being Shattered did this, and while Dorothy and Joyce could have 100% worded shit better, Becky’s inability to move on is what did this.
I’m not sure how to feel about this. I suppose everyone’s connection to religion is inherently subjective. It just feels like a selfish perspective from Becky. Using her own personal confirmation bias to support her faith, especially coming off her brief encounter with Asma a person who uses her faith as a foundation for strength. Like comparatively Asma was just tear gassed a few days ago fighting for her and her loved ones rights to exist and practice their faith without the school at least actively participating in their genocide. And she still gets up every morning and puts in the work as she says. What has Becky been putting in? But even as I ask I know that’s not the right question to ask because religion can be so personal. Saying Becky should try harder is maybe too cruel and dismissive. But I do wonder what she was really believing for.
Regardless of how hard or easy one’s life is, when it comes to stuff like religion and other existential related topics a lot of it ultimately boils down to the incredibly subjective ways individuals deal with the constant background knowledge we all hold in the back of our heads: that someday all the people we know and love will die and eventually ourselves as well.
Well stated.
The hardest part of holding that particular background knowledge is avoiding revisiting that truth. The mind returns like a tongue that can’t leave an extraction site alone. Escaping the spiraling thoughts is one battle and staying away from the pit’s edge is another.
In the depths of a [midlife] crises it helps to remind yourself of previous times you grappled with that knowledge. (Did Mr. Rogers singing “to know you’re alive” trigger the realization that one day you wouldn’t be? Remember that you worked through it in grade school, and you can do it again.)
Acknowledge that it’s real and horrifying, but also that there are more immediate concerns left unattended. Be gentle with yourself and open to redirection.
Sometimes it takes something absurd to snap you back to reality. Mine was an acorn that dropped onto the road in front of me and bounced higher than the car hood. “What?!” [For Allie Brosch of hyperboleandahalf on blogspot, it was a lone kernel of corn under the fridge (2013/05/depression-part-two).]
I mean, the main answer is: She was believing because she was raised to believe. Because it gave her comfort (which it no longer seems to do). I don’t think it’s fair or at all a good idea to compare two people’s traumas like “Person A has a ‘harder’ life than you do and they have faith so you’re not doing enough”.
There’s no reason Becky should believe in a god, and it’s fine that she doesn’t now. It’s also fine if she just renegotiates her personal relationship with her deity at a later date or if she never does. Ultimately, she didn’t owe her belief to anyone, so it can’t be a selfish act (because it harms no one) to release that belief.
I’m not trying to compare trauma as much as compare faith. I think the comic itself is doing that by having that interaction between Asma and Becky. Becky even implying she isn’t strong enough and I have to wonder why she believes that. Whatever reason she has for losing faith or lapsing in it are hers to reconcile, I just wonder if it’s because she no longer believes her faith is serving her? Selfishness is not always at the expense of others. Quite the opposite in fact.
I think selfishness requires that you disregard the feelings or needs of others, but it wouldn’t be the first time (even this week) that I find out people have wildly differing definitions of words I thought were cut-and-dried.
I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between Asma and Becky here.
Asma’s problems are external to her faith, “others” that she is fighting, and those who share her faith are on her side.
Becky’s problems are all internal, caused by people inside her faith, and that’s dismantling it. First both her parents, then her whole church, and now Joyce, are all people she shares her faith with, and they are the ones causing her to hurt. I’m not surprised she’s shaken by all of this.
It’s a lot easier to keep your faith when horrible things are done by outsiders and you and your fellow faithful stand up against it, then when all the horrible things are done by your fellow faithful and you feel you’ve got nobody on your side.
Fair points and Nymph also made a great point that Becky was indoctrinated into her beliefs without getting choice. I don’t think we know enough about Asma to assume much of what her religious experience has been. I question Becky because she’s a lesbian raised in the structure of fundamental Christianity. She was already rewriting her faith just to exist. How was she justifying that before where it doesn’t apply now? What did her faith actually mean to her? I thought it was “God answers lesbian prayers.” (Is that her quote or just a comments thing?) But apparently that wasn’t it.
I don’t know much about faith, but I think Becky pretty much says it here: In the face of everything, she still genuinely felt that God was real and was watching out for her. Now she doesn’t. That’s basically it.
It makes an interesting contrast to Joyce, whose loss of faith came with realising she’d never actually felt that, she was just raised to believe she was supposed to. So her response was “If all this stuff I’ve been taught is wrong, that includes God”, while Becky’s was “If all this stuff I’ve been taught is wrong, they’ve probably got God wrong as well.”
What is ”putting in the work” in this context? Keep trying to convince herself that against all evidence, the god of the Bible is a real and tangible, all powerful force, and personally looking after her?
Whatever that means is unique to her, but it’s not a coincidence that in this story arc where Becky is having a crisis of faith we open with what could be the most devout character in the comic and she’s promoting and practicing her self discipline. Stating that it’s her foundation that gives her strength, whether through her routine prayer, her cultural expression, community, good will, ect.
By comparison what does putting in the work mean to Becky? How was she practicing her faith? Was it just vibes? Were there other things she liked? For instance she seemed to enjoy going to the Sunday services with Jacob, possibly the community fostered there. She liked dressing up in soft butch formal attire, she liked the songs. Those things still exist even if her mom is gone and she can’t kiss the girl she likes. What was Becky’s foundation now that it has seemingly crumbled and what was she doing to keep it strong when tested?
I’m not sure there are even answers to these questions. They’re just interesting questions to ask. I think Becky was already doing a lot of work internally to keep her faith. I’m wondering if she understands that and can articulate what that work was and why it doesn’t work now.
I just don’t understand “putting in the work” in the context of Christianity at all. Is one supposed to struggle to silence the parts of ones mind that notice the inconsistencies? Is the work going to church even if you don’t feel like it, and who is that for?
AFAIK the answer is because your community will notice if you don’t, and they’ll judge you. Surely it can’t be that you are doing work that God needs somehow. The Alpha and the Omega can’t be dependent on Becky “doing the work” on His behalf.
I can’t think of a more fundamentally narcissistic belief than “I’m important to the supreme being of the universe, and he personally cares about me”. If we weren’t used to religion, and somebody claimed this, we’d think there is something deeply wrong with them.
Okay, I really disagree with a lot of what you’re saying here. And I’ll try to be polite about how I voice that, but apologies in advance if I come across as aggressive (tone is fricking hard).
On the note of “putting in the work” I’d say it’s more taking the time to do the things about your faith that give you strength or comfort. I’m speaking from a Protestant perspective here, so can’t speak for most people actually, but that’s what I would say. Putting in the work is partaking in the activities offered by your community, and doing your best to give back to that community. If that doesn’t feel right anymore, then it doesn’t. You do something else. But as Sirksome said, things like routine, cultural expression and community are central tenets. Putting in the work is not censoring your brain, it’s finding ways to live (religiously or irreligiously) that work for you.
The phrase “I’m important to the supreme being of the universe, and he personally cares about me” in my ears speaks more to the incomprehensibility of God, as I imagine them, than about human narcissism. A being so vast that every single life is loved and special in their eyes. Of course, if said phrase then continues: “The supreme being cares about me/my group way more than anyone else, and thus we are special above the rest of the world and the other people in it”, then you have a problem. But one is not necessarily the other.
And no, going to church is not “putting in the work”, it doesn’t benefit anyone aside from the people in charge of said church. Which is bad, because the kind of church that would make you do that could not be run by good people, since bullshit systems like that serve the power hungry.
Thanks for all this, including that distinction between being cared about versus being cared about more than others. Not the same. I was raised Christian and am now an eclectic Pagan/UU/nature mystic/pantheist, and yet our theology seems really resonant. I have heard the Universe telling me, "I take you seriously," when I didn't feel like I could take myself seriously. It was so healing. And I don't doubt that the Universe takes every being just as seriously.
Someone ceasing believing their god(s) exist typically isn’t the result of a traumatic experience. You see it many times in fiction. In real life, it might change, but usually not just a sudden reversal (the same goes for a skeptic, they typically don’t suddenly believe a god or gods exist merely because of an emotional or physical trauma).
In real life, I expect it would be more likely that Becky converts from Christianity to Islam than suddenly cease religiosity because of her emotional trauma.
Huh…I don’t have statistics to back me up but I highly suspect there’s way more Christians defecting into secularism than into Islam, at least in the US.
OK never mind I wanted statistics and these seem to agree with me, although I can’t find a graph that shows what exactly what I was looking for. But I don’t see that any of the religions or denominations surveyed have increased in members/people identifying with it, and religious “nones” have over doubled in size.
I have seen it argued, and I find it convincing, that this is part of why politics have gotten so intense. As people move away from religious communities, they bring that level of religious fervor into politics instead.
I am at this point just making peace with the Protest/Joyrothy Kiss as the cost of doing business. It’s a major plot beat and turning point and it kind of sucks.
That is hardly without precedent in ongoing serial fiction. It happens, and it’s frustrating, but I have dealt with worse.
I’m kind of sad about this development in general. I liked the contrast between Joyce losing her faith and Becky’s maybe even getting stronger.
And I know it’s deeper than that, but after everything else having it tied to Joyce being gay but not interested in her seems a weird narrative choice.
its happening because a build up of trauma from being abused and in a high control cult type group, the thing with joyce is just like the straw thats breaking the camels back. Id be fucked up too in her position.
Often, but with this antibiotic, I’m pretty sure it’s a side-effect.
We have so many antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria now, it is so good to have alternatives. I hope this is gonna work, and totally fix the issue.
Chag sameach! i’m excited to be able to share hanukkah with my gf, it’s gonna be her first and it’s one of my faves because I love being able to like *do* stuff with Judaica. We’re gonna have to be starting late because I don’t get there until the second night but eh, there’s (hopefully) next year too
Happy Chanukah!
Tonight my almost-2-year-old first encountered the concept of a dreidl. He hasn’t seen an actual dreidl yet and has no idea it is a small toy, but he fully understands that it involves spinning around really fast until you can’t stand up anymore and you fall over giggling. 100% correct, tiny dreidl child.
Therapy will put the universe at your back. It’ll give you the assurance that everything’ll be okay. Therapy will replace your mother and you will forget all about her.
Therapy might not make Massive changes to a person’s well being, but it is a safe space to talk about what troubles you, to a person who actually has a degree that states they know what they are talking about.
Its like Directed Self Reflection. You tell them what is bothering you, they tell you the things that might be causing it and ways to deal with your emotions in a healthy way. Like keeping a Journal, thats a popular one and it honestly helps, writing down your feelings is what keeps a lot of people in bad situations from choosing to end it.
Everybody should get therapy, maybe not Prolonged therapy, but I believe that having at least 1 visit will benefit anybody who actually participates and takes it seriously.
That being said, make sure you get a good therapist that is actually specialized in what is troubling you. A Good Doctor can recommend you a Good Therapist most of the time.
I mean, I think there is certainly a discussion to be had about the professionalization/commercialization of emotional support.
On one hand it is good to have therapy available and good for people to be able to get it when needed.
On the other hand sometimes it seems like therapy is just assumed to fix everything, and is pushed for partially as an alternative to building rich supportive communities.
Any good therapist will tell you that its not there to fix everything, its there to assist YOU in making the choices needed to fix things yourself. Its a Helping Hand, not a Cure. If you don’t put in the work, if you don’t honestly want to get better and stick to the habits they can introduce to you, then the Therapy will do very little for you.
One thing that Therapists will tell people is to find people who you trust and create connections. They actively fight becoming Friends with their patients, because they don’t want their patients to see them as that Lifeline, as that could slow their personal growth and quickly become unprofessional.
The alternative is to just take the medications that Doctors will prescribe that don’t actually fix a problem, just numb it and sometimes replace the regular side effects with something worse.
If you try to just listen to random people online, who didn’t go to college to get a degree in mental health, your just as likely to find Unhelpful/harmful information as you are anything even slightly useful.
Therapy really should be cheaper, but you can blame our countries reliance on Insurance Companies and its largely harmful view on Healthcare in general. Its fairly affordable in most other countries that have it as an option.
Don’t dismiss the medications entirely. Therapy’s good for a lot of things, but there are some that really are just chemical imbalances that can’t be fixed by therapy.
And here we hit the nail on the head – it’s not about Joyce and Dorothy, not really. That’s simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. Joyce was the one anchor had left to her former life, to the foundations of her faith. She’s lost everything else – her father was killed, her mother killed herself, her congregation was complicit in kidnapping her and have shunned her. But she still had Joyce, reliable Joyce. Only Joyce kept changing – now she’s atheist, now she’s gay – and Becky has nothing, no anchor to her old life, her childhood, not even the best friend she grew up with because she’s grown into a different person now. And so the walls come tumbling down, the floodgates open, and we’re left with this. Becky is broken. How will she begin to put the pieces back together? It starts with Dina.
Yeah, it’s really been sad to look back and see how much of Becky’s flood of doubt and sadness was being held back by her using Joyce as this load bering pillar. Coincidentally; Joyce looked at Becky as incredibly strong and brave for going through all of that, not knowing how much of it relied on her being her.
I was about to agree with you, but now that I think about it for a second she could probably reach out to Hank.
… it’s not much, and I don’t know how much good it would do, and I’m not surprised she’s not thinking of it, but at least that’s a second piece of her former life that’s not gone.
I feel like I have to disagree – it’s clearly at least somewhat about Joyce and Dorothy, it was only the *last* strip where Becky explained that she thinks she’s broken up with Dina because Dina has self respect and saw “how clearly jealous” Becky had been towards Dorothy. Like, that was literally the last thing said in conversation before we segued into how terrible it feels for Becky that she’s lost her faith in god.
Yeah, it’s not just jealousy, but also not not jealousy. It’s like what effects of the jealousy revealed to Dina.
While Dina doesn’t believe in God/have religious faith she understood it was something important to Becky. But with Becky’s reaction to Joyce and Dorothy hooking up Dina was made to feel that Becky’s love for Dina was less important/had less capacity to affirm that faith than Becky’s jealousy over Joyce to be able to destroy that same faith.
As much as the Joyce that was represented Becky’s connection to her old life and childhood, Dina represents her connection to her new life and adulthood. The damage to their relationship is not irreparable, though Becky, in her self-blaming malaise, may think otherwise. Repairing it is going to be a crucial step in Becky moving forward and healing from the loss of her childhood.
o3o Y’know despite having been agnostic atheist most of my life I find it pretty hard to square the circle of the permanence of death. Anytime I start to wrap my mind around it I am overwhelmed by such a sense of dread it makes me wanna curl up into a ball. Which is odd cuz I don’t necessarily believe in an afterlife. I guess I just hope there is one.
😛 I mean I think a lot about dying.
But I don’t like doing stuff that maximizes my time on earth. It seems exhausting. Also I’m 31. I’ve already fallen behind on all of my dreams. And I truly hate everything so much that the only reason I continue to live is because the total cessation of consciousness is more terrifying than anything. The world’s going to a place that I don’t wanna live in and getting the most out of life just feels like an invitation to endless stress and frustration.
I’m sorry you are feeling so much stress and frustration. I think you’re an incredible artist, at least, FWIW, and from what I’ve seen you’re a good person, too.
Life isn’t a race, you know? Apparently the neurology nerds are now saying adolescence lasts from age 9 to 32 or so. (I think I saw it in Willis’s feed, but here’s the study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-65974-8 )
So you’re nowhere near “behind” on anything, as far as I can tell. The scenic route *is* the goal itself, sometimes.
I hope you can cut yourself some slack and feel some pride in what you *have* attained abd learned already.
Sending hopes for your peace of mind. It’s rough, buddy. It’s a hard time. That’s why community counts so much right now.
I can also just say that being in your 30s is way better than being in your 20s. Most of your problems are still the same, but now you’re better at dealing with them. Your brain doesn’t blow itself up or do stupid shit as often. It’s just generally more stable, at least, relative to the overall stability of your situation. Some say youth is wasted on the young, but I wouldn’t wish youth on anyone. It’s the worst time of your life, you just don’t know any better while you’re there.
The universe is a quantum wave function evolving deterministically. In some branches of the wave function, you die within an hour or the next time you step outside and a photon from every star in the sky strikes your body and you fry to death. Those branches have a small magnitude. In some branches of the evolving wave function you will continue to survive indefinitely. Those branches have an even smaller magnitude.
Take comfort in the fact that you experience an inherently biased sample. You will only experience those branches of the universe in which you continue to survive. From a subjective point of view, in extremus, the universe itself will rise up to defend you.
(Sharing my own teleporter-problem-related existential horror relevant to this topic: for a lot of the more probable methods of death there’s a point at which (effectively?) all of the worldlines in which you’re able to survive the next few minutes have already diverged from your current worldline.
‘Fear of consciousness termination’ can be reframed as ‘Fear of one day finding yourself in one of those worldlines’.
In practice, even for ending up in one of those worldlines while unconscious, you’re then just not even aware that now you’re a mindform instance that’s effectively-inevitably about to be snuffed out forever.
Other instances of you will still remember being who you would have remembered being, but your own consciousness can’t skip horizontally out of a worldline in which it’s about to die into one in which it isn’t.
Usually ‘where there’s life there’s hope’–there might be all sorts of medical advances or surprising changes in the future world as long as you’re alive to benefit from them–but even if before diverging you can try to comfort yourself that ‘you’ at that point will continue on,
those ‘yous’ which don’t will face a nightmare made real,
which makes it a viable nightmare even before diverging.
Or putting it more briefly:
You’re about to step into a blue teleporter, which will turn you into two identical instances teleported into a green booth and a red booth, which can see each other.
The ‘you’ teleported into the red booth will be killed a few seconds later (while the ‘you’ in the green booth watches) and will probably die screaming.
The question is, should the ‘you’ in the blue booth feel fear (/existential dread)?
Even if knowing there will be survival in the green booth, when stepping into the blue booth there’s the knowledge of 50% probability of the next subjective experiences being in the red booth.
After diverging past the point of no return, you’re not going to share both the green booth and red booth experiences and keep on living after you die.
(I am horrified by this but keep on living well and as safely as I meaningfully can, because so far there is nothing else I can do.)
The thing is, you are continuously in the blue booth and have been all your life, whether you have ever realized it or not. Being unable to watch probably helps.
I’m not touting it as a prophylactic against all dread, merely against the dread of complete lack of existence. As is evident from conversations elsewhere in the comment section, and even the strip itself, it does nothing at all for the dread of losing a loved one.
I’m 51. I advice against trying to defince your worth via ”achievements”. Try your best to be a positive force in the world, or at least not a negative one. Be kind, and accept your own flaws (but work on them).
I know saying ‘skill issue’ is a big internet meme thing to do but when someone is expressing existential dread, that’s not the time to respond like “lmao skill issue bro”. Be a bit more compassionate in the future. That’s the real skill issue here.
I am same dread opposite source. The idea of eternal life, whether that’s heaven, reincarnation or some ghost switch, fills me with immense dread. Forever is a long time and I never wanted the time I have now. I /do/ believe some kind of afterlife is possible or likely, and I hope like hell it’s not.
I’m more afraid of a forever where I no longer exist. Like if my soul doesn’t retain my memories and personality then that’s the same as being dead. It doesn’t matter if my soul persists forever if I, yoto, don’t. Y’know?
Personally that kind of is my fear. Eternal consciousness with eternal nothingness. I’m happy to be erased completely as long as I’m not aware. I’m just scared of the eternal sensory deprivation chamber
If I think too hard about either scenario (typically at night-time) for death: complete total cessation of consciousness or an eternity of consciousness that never ends, I can get existential dread for both of them, so that’s double the fun for me.
Honestly, I am not which I would prefer/find worse, I think eternal consciousness, but your consciousness in just in a total unchanging black (or white or grey) void, is arguably the most existentially scary prospect.
If I had to describe a preference I think I would prefer if death isn’t simply the total absolute cessation/annihilation/nonexistence of consciousness but I definitely don’t want my individual consciousness to continue to exist for perpetuity. Something like joining a greater universal Buddha-nature consciousness of the universe or something to how the soul and daemons break down into Dust in Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials book series.
Probably still the same, especially if the circumstances of that continuing consciousness are the same, like only remembering 40 versus infinity doesn’t make much of a difference if its in an unchanging void. And even if it isn’t a void one still has the self-awareness that it’s continuous even if your memory doesn’t extend past 40 years.
Yeah, I’ve had a couple really vivid nightmares imagining how it must feel to be in a mind fading into non-existence. The thought terrifies me. Probably more than the idea of non-existence itself. Being nothing probably wouldn’t be all that bad. Becoming nothing is probably horrifying.
I would quite like there to be an afterlife though. That would be nice.
Hmmm. I have maybe 20 years left, 30 if I’m lucky. At the moment I have no desire to go. But both my parents did when they got there, so maybe I will. As for afterlife, maybe it is like Sir Terry Pratchet says: you get what you expect!
It’s interesting because I’ve also been agnostic/atheist all my life (raised without any religion) and I’ve never really had that existential dread of non-existence after death. I’m certainly afraid of the suffering that so often leads up to it and I get the desire to be reunited with loved ones who’ve died, but non-existence itself? I know it’s common, but that fear doesn’t resonate with me at all.
I describe myself as having the base amount of spiritualism required by the human brain to not go insane. I like the idea of reincarnation, so I’ve just sorta baked that in. Death isn’t an end, just a reset. Tho idk how much comfort I’ll be able to keep finding in that since I really don’t wanna see what this place is like in a hundred years. Maybe it’ll be anime rules, I can get isekai’d into my favorite romance fantasy series or smth
I just pray to whatever that Bleach wasnt right about death, I don’t wanna die and immediately become homeless and impoverished in feudal Japan for like 60 years
Hey man it’s not all bad. You could always go to the infinite desert night dimension where you’ll be hunted to be eaten for the remainder of all time
Or literal actual hell.
Or you could be lost in the world inbetween until you lose your physical form and just because one of countless others as the literal building blocks for a pocket dimension.
I kinda want the Coco/Book of Life afterlife where as long as I’m remembered I get to chill with my family for all eternity. That said eventually the sun will go supernova and kill everyone meaning nobody will be remembered and every single human will be in the land of the forgotten.
I love Coco for that even in the non-literal sense. I want to leave tokens and stories behind in my house to people that have passed just because the idea of atleast remembering the dead, even those from generations ago is a small form of comfort to me. that even in abstract absence you’re atleast never forgotten.
See I would like reincarnation more if…
1. I could retain my memories which I obviously can’t do or I’d remember my previous lives
and
2. If being any other animal than human wasn’t so terrifying. I don’t wanna be a bug. Or any fish, really. Best case scenario is I’m a really well taken care of housecat or something.
Relatable; my dad died alone in a hospice in his sleep, his most feared way to go, and it can pop up in my mind to haunt me as well. I takes some work to just accept things as they are; even if they aren’t what I would like them to be, but I take comfort in knowing that it’s an experience that is uniquely human.
Man, do I feel this. Thinking about it too hard makes me start hyperventilating and whimpering. I’d take Christian hell a million times over nonexistence.
Sounds like it’s about time for Becky to start collecting more Earth hugs instead. Maybe that’s a concrete thing Dorothy could help her out with right now. It’d probably help her a lot more than a notarized apology letter, anyway.
As someone with a dead dad, yeah it’s complicated if you don’t believe in the afterlife. You can really see why so many people want/choose to believe in “something after” even if there’s no real evidence. The idea that it just… ends and you’ll never see those people again is devastating and terrifying.
it’d suck to lose faith that way and realizing passed away loved ones aren’t ‘looking down on you ‘ but at least she still has teh memories although it’d be sucky if they didn’t still have old pics and stuff since becky/joyce grew up in a pre social media era
Hugs for Becky. She does trust Dorothy to a great extent. After all, this was a very personal thing to disclose. Possibly also necessary for her to heal? My people skills (relationship skills in particular) are lacking, but shouldn’t she be having this conversation with Dina?
I don’t imagine she’s in the right mental space to talk with Dina right now. She thinks she’s on considerably worse footing with her than she actually is.
It’s fine to have this conversation with Dorothy. It’s not a single-use conversation, and it’s a good idea to get your thoughts in order before talking to someone you’ve upset.
Also contrary to popular belief, they are friends. And they are still friends even after kissgate. They’ve had important conversations before, namely Yale. And Dotty is one of the few people Becky is comfortable unmasking around
As someone who lost their mom a year ago, this hurts. I’m surrounded by the platitudes of her being in a better place and looking down on me and being proud of me, but I can’t /believe/ any of that. To me, she’s just gone. And I feel like I have to mourn that in silence while my sister talks about our mom visiting her in her dreams. I know I don’t know for certain what happens when we die, but I’m drawn to the most ‘logical’ conclusion, that the end is simply the end in the same way there was nothing before.
I lost one of my close internet friends earlier this year which I know sounds like no big deal comparatively but it’s the first time someone my age I knew has passed away. I’m still having trouble coping with his absence.
A dozen years ago, for me. I still miss her often – mostly around our shared birthday (about a week apart, and we almost always celebrated them together) – but not as often, if that helps at all. Another mixed blessing is that I take after her very strongly, and so I never have to wonder for more than a moment how she’d react to the many things I wish I could show or tell her about, as I often did before.
The pain fades; the love does not. I hope the first happens for you soon. Until then, you have my deepest sympathies.
See, this is one of the problems that happen when your cartoon stretches believability and reason so much, and for so long. When it comes time to deliver a gut punch, it has the same amount of emotional leverage as Marmaduke.
For those who weren’t reading comics in the mid 2000s, this is how you get Loss.
Maybe we just agree that different things pull different people’s heartstrings instead of rushing to call strangers “defective” for not feeling how you feel about something.
But it’s me feeling it, so it OUGHT to be universal.
Seriously, I don’t really understand how someone who has been following the comic long enough to become emotionally involved with the characters is able to not feel the gut punch. It makes me wonder what else they can’t feel.
And since I’m obviously not the defective one, it’s got to be them.
Look, if Ziggy was telling Fluff that he was sad because he realized his dead mom wasn’t watching from heaven, I wouldn’t feel the gut punch either.
I’ve been reading since Shortpacked. It’s not the same strip now. I’m not going to argue about how believable it is or isn’t that Becky’s life is perched on a Jenga brick titled “Joyce’s Straightness and Why She Won’t Fuck Me,” but its comic that seemingly all her friends recognize just how unhinged she is so that they dont mind pulling off Garfield-level shenanigans when breaking it to their exes, but are devastated when the gay friend realizes something that would only hurt her if she actively was emotionally cheating on her girlfriend.
She lost her mom. Her dad went crazy. Kicked out of school. Kidnapped, then had her friends kidnapped. Each time she’s like ” Nope, golly, this makes my faith stronger.”
And she’s rescued by freaking superheroes, twice. Given a job most people would kill for. A free ride to school. Enough discretionary funds to give her girlfriend, who is summarily without flaws, the best gift ever. And to all of that, she’s like, God dang, that just proves god is real, yo.
But then her high school crush, who she was already rejected from, she learns that it’s not oh, I’m sorry, I’m straight, but now its oh, I’m sorry, you’re just not my type, and THAT is enough for her to go “gawsh theres no god.”?
Give her thirty more near-death experiences and kill ten more close family members and whatever, but Joyce Brown doesn’t want to get in my pants is a “God doesnt exist” moment?
And that’s fine, whatever. So there was no foreshadowing, no prior hint, whatever. But the biggest thing is, Dorothy and Joyce didjt even really care about the cheating; they only cared about how this would hurt Becky, The Girl With The Amazing Girlfriend And Best Relationship.
Like, how self-centered do you have to be, to believe without a shadow of a doubt that someone in a stable loving relationship will be devastated because you aren’t in a relationship with them? And then, how completely fucked up is it that they’re all RIGHT? That, oh, yeah, learning that you’re just not your best friend’s type is enough to kill their relationship AND their faith.
This reminds me of so many books I’ve read by singular authors, whose main characters were author inserts, and didnt realize as the story went on that they were turning them into a monster. Terry Goodkind, Ernest Cline, Lev Grossmsn, Orson Scott Card. Theres this weird bit where it’s like, “OK, this is where the moral should be, and… uh, no? We’re doubling down? Main character didn’t learn anything? OK.”
So no, Becky’s crisis of faith, brought on by learning that the person she REALLY wanted to be in a relationship just wasn’t into her that way, when she already knew she wasn’t into her that way, which now causes her to wander the school and cut her hair and have vaguely semi offensive conversations with acquaintances about how she’s an athiest now frfr, just isn’t doing it to for me. It has all the emotional weight of I Ii II L.
If this were a comic that has never been serious and was entirely devoted to wacky non sequitur rather than character development, then this would be Loss. But it’s not. How Joyce and the others change from their exposure to a bigger world has always been the point.
This is not even remotely comparable to the comedy gold that is Loss. I mean to start with this kind of emotional beat is standard for this comic, it’s not a sudden turn. Unlike loss, this is also not funny
I didn’t even think about her mom. She had that assurance that her mom was always there and would be waiting, even if she couldn’t see it. And now it’s gone.
The last bit of her comfort is gone.
Unrelated: finally figured out why my comments were stuck. That was a frustrating two days.
Ah, the center of Becky’s faith was that her mom was still looking out for her? That makes sense. And I’ve seen that belief in the real world too. Well done, Willis.
This would be a lot more impactful without the last two panels. Becky’s going through an emotional crisis and Willis wants to focus on how it makes Dorothy feel.
As someone who’s been an atheist for over 20 years, I feel for Becky in this strip. I don’t have that comforting belief that a deity is looking out for me. I don’t have the belief that I’ll see loved ones I lost again in some afterlife. It sucks to no longer have the comfort those ideas provide, but you get used to living without that. Since I don’t believe in an afterlife, I try to help make the world a better place in this life.
I recently saw a claim that conservatives don’t believe in making the world a better place due to the Christian belief that this world is flawed and temporary, and a good world only comes after death.
I’m sure conservatives are like that even in places where they aren’t (or don’t pretend to be) Christian, but something about it still rings true.
Worst part is that it’s not really a Christian belief, more of a Paulist belief. The Gospels tell followers constantly to make the world we’re in a better place – feed the hungry, clothe the naked, all that good stuff, and don’t worry about when everything ends, because you’re not getting advance warning. It was the Epistles of Paul (almost half of which weren’t even written by Paul) that kept moaning on about an imperfect material world and how it’s all going to end any minute now.
Then again, vanishingly few “conservatives” have even read the Bible, much less any of the related scholarship, so…
Yup, I doubt it’s from any “Bible study” or anything like that, but those ideas seem to really resonate among conservatives. There is this deep belief that people are inherently bad, and things can’t be made better.
With such a world view, it’s no wonder how many of them are selfish and ready to be cruel for their own advancement. If everything is garbage anyway, the best they can aspire to is some momentary satisfaction, even at others expense.
And the ones that have read it likely forgot that Paul is the only reason the new religion was open to Gentiles. (Arise, Peter. Kill and eat some prawns w/bacon.)
Very jaded response to the scales falling from Saul’s eyes was that he’d found a ‘new market’ to plumb.
A good part of the difference is just that the gospels were written a few decades later and Christians were starting to face the idea that maybe God wasn’t going to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven any day now.
It’s also worth remembering that the Gospels were written later and there’s little reason to think they’re any close to whatever the original message was than Paul was.
I think discussing this here might be too off topic but I wonder if you can direct me to where I can learn specifics on what you mean by that statement on W (and any others of prominence would probably pique my interest).
Didn’t realize it was “alleged”, but this talks about the incident. He supposedly basically told France that we needed their help to trigger the apocalypse.
My little Atheist philosophy is that the past is immutable. We feel sorrow and grief because there was something beautiful in our past. That will always be true, and the absence of that beauty in the present doesn’t diminish or reduce how beautiful it was in the past.
So sorrow, joy, grief, etc… are all “positive” emotions in the sense that they all help us to connect and understand beauty in our lives.
Going to take advantage of the anonymity of the comment section for a sec because it’s too fucking hard and too raw to talk about it with our friends and family, especially since our family is religious and we are not. And those 3rd and 4th panels got me hard.
Our second, another perfect little girl, was born on the 4th. She was normal length, normal weight…normal everything. She mastered the latch from the get-go and fed without issue. She had the right amount of wet and dirty diapers. She snuggled happily in her daddy’s arms in between feeds. But the night of the 5th, I fed her; she went to sleep in my arms…and never woke up. On the 9th, we let her go from the NICU. We still don’t know why it happened. There were neurological issues, sure, but they were the sort of thing where people often go their entire life not even knowing they have them. Only a small percentage end up having the worst outcome of being total care, and those are the ones with comorbid genetic issues, something her amnio came back clear for.
And it fucking sucks. It sucks knowing that because she was only 2 days old and because we didn’t want to announce until she was here in case something happened that basically no one will know she existed. It sucks that we barely have any photos of her because we’re the type to enjoy the moment rather than snap photos. It sucks that the only reason we HAVE any photos is because my mum brought our older daughter up to the hospital to visit twice and started taking some. My fucking 5-year-old daughter who has spent the past year insanely excited to be a big sister only to have that role snatched from her right before fucking Christmas.
It sucks hearing people who live in my stupid southern town and who saw me pregnant tell me that “she’s in a better place.” No. No she’s fucking not. She’s alone in a hospital morgue, waiting for us to contact a funeral home and have her cremated. She never got to come home. And the only solace we have is knowing that she went peacefully in her sleep with a full belly and snuggled up warm in my arms. Empty nursery sitting ready and unused. Presents waiting to be wrapped. Baby clothes folded in the wardrobe and hanging from the shelf. A new set of matching stockings with wooden name tags, a tag that we’ll wrap on her urn instead. But, oh, she’s in a better fucking place. Fucking spare me.
Savail, I’m so sorry. I have to think I’d have incredibly little patience for people who tried to tell me that “better place” BS after a loss so profound. I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through and everything you’ve lost.
That is a devastating loss, Savail. I am so sorry you and your family are going through this, and I wish society didn’t seem to be structured so that we slap band-aids on pain with stupid fucking platitudes. We end up leaving people in a crumbling sink hole all alone. Do literally whatever the hell you need to do about this. Fuck everyone else’s opinions on what’s ‘right’ or socially acceptable. That little girl was real and she will always be your baby, and you do what you need to do to survive this for your other little girl.
Love. Hugs. There is nothing anyone can say to make it better. Thank you for letting that out. Only us out here caring about you. And, to be totally honest, crying with you.
I’m truly sorry for what you have to go through, both the loss as well as the constant reminder and “the well-intentioned unthinkingly twisting the knife”. I’ve watched people in my life go through similar loss, and it just fills you with such a directionless anger and immense sadness when someone so young is denied their shot at life.
I hope sharing your story on the internet and the words of comfort of us internet strangers offer up some sort of small, if any comfort
I’m so sorry, Savail. Having to suffer through such tragedy alone because everyone around you won’t ever understand the, like, actual premise of the tragedy makes it so much worse. A weird smugness that won’t let you feel what’s real. People saying mean things they think are nice.
If there were a Hell, that’d be it, and I wish you didn’t have to endure it.
Expression of sympathy via light virtual contact. There’s nothing I can say – nothing anyone can say – that will make you feel better. And if you punch the next “better place” person right in the fucking nose, I don’t think anyone should blame you.
Huh. Looks like I need to disable the live URLs to post.
…Some of this might still include the kinds of religious platitudes that have been so unhelpful and hurtful to you, but just in case any of the material resources and services might be of practical support…
“Here I sit, with list in hand,” as the old ballad goes:
Always with the “better place” crap. Like, y’know what’d be a better place for that kid, Karen? Home. A better place for a newborn isn’t some nebulous concept of Heaven or whatever, it’s home. With her parent(s?), being loved and cared for, eating favorite dinners, learning, playing with her sister, getting into fights sometimes, making friends, picking up and discarding a new hobby every other month, growing up and becoming an entire adult one day. There’s no “better place” than that.
There’s so little that can be usefully said to the grieving at a funeral. I finally learned to just say how sorry I was for their loss and to stay in touch if I could help in any way.
Is it bad if I just can’t see this as anything more than “temper tantrum atheism”? Straw that broke the camel’s back or not, it still seems pretty rooted in selfishness to me. She’s not coming to this conclusion because of, say, the suffering of others or some reasoned out arguments. It’s still all about her in the end.
It just feels like another example of someone getting butthurt because a deity didn’t descend from on high to grant all their wishes like some kind of genie.
It’s not bad, because she’s not a real person. It is, perhaps, an unkind view of what she’s been through that got her here and the fact that most of her belief comes from being forced to believe through indoctrination. She’s had a few months of interacting with the world outside her cult, she’s going to go through a lot of changes.
Also, it’s super not a requirement to have reasoned arguments for not believing in a deity. Especially when you didn’t have reasoned arguments for believing in one in the first place. Her believing in a god has the same impact her disbelief has… zero. I struggle to call something selfish when no one else is benefited or harmed by your belief.
Not totally sure there’s a way to feel about religion that isn’t entirely personal biases and your personal experiences put together in a mushy morass.
Of Note: I’m discussing personal belief ONLY and not the actions people and communities may or may not take based on those beliefs. This is not an offer for people to tell me Religion Bad or Religion Good, because frankly I just don’t debate that with strangers. Feel how you feel about that.
Basically this. Despite some atheist rhetoric about it all being about rational thinking and the evidence, I don’t think it works that way for most – either for believers or non-believers. For most none of it is rational, we believe or don’t believe and we then rationalize that as best we can.
That doesn’t mean it’s all “temper tantrum” or “butthurt”, it’s just that you stop believing. Even Joyce didn’t get there through reasoned arguments or worries about the problem of suffering. She stopped feeling God or realized that she never did.
About her, sure. About not having all her wishes granted…you really think that’s a fair description of all Becky’s been through, including her mom killing herself and her dad kidnapping her? Geez, man.
I’d say it, but not because of her getting what she wants. As you point out her life kinda sucked a whole lotta shit before. However, I’d say it because her religious interpretation was already pretty wishful in the first place. From acceptance of homosexuality (while more popular than ever, it’s still not a majority church view in most christian denominations) to her mom being in heaven (I’m pretty sure suicide lands you in purgatory in most denominations), she’s already made plenty edits to her religion for her wishes to be granted (which were in part because of how much stuff she’s had to deal with in life, I think). Thing is, that’s not a bad thing to do. Religion is a personal thing.
The problem is when that religion suffers a devastating blow, you feel it that much more harshly.
It’s pretty much that Joyce and Becky had religiosity as their only coping mechanisms, because they came from a background so religious, that all other coping mechanisms were disallowed. They had objectively horrible lives in an abusive, dehumanizing cult, and were offered precisely one coping strategy by that cult.
So, it ultimately isn’t that surprising that some would find their loss of faith to “feel selfish;” like, their faith was the internal coping mechanism that they were taught must supplant love and self-worth, so of course things that happen to them, or things that they feel, will be what ultimately topples their faith; “faith” was the thing they were doing, to avoid feeling their own feelings, and experiencing their authentic selves, at a foundational level. Of course that comes across as being “about them,” because faith was used as a catch-all for their entire lives to teach them which parts of themselves to minimize or suppress, for the benefit of their in-group.
It would be pretty hard for them to break faith for reasons related to anybody else; after all, “God Will Fix That If He Should” is the prescribed explanation they were given, for every bad thing in the world that has ever happened to anybody. Why would they lose faith from bad things happening to other people? They were already told, as a thought-terminating cliche, “that’s on God, you don’t worry about that.”
Becky has been told all her life that god loves her, has a plan, and is looking out for her. It’s a core part of her belief system. It’s not unreasonable, in the face of all she has experienced, for her to conclude that there is no plan and nobody is looking out for her. Previously when complex events worked in her favour, Becky was able to ascribe that to God’s influence, but now she is watching things break in Joyce’s favour even though Joyce has rejected God. Either God isn’t there, or God doesn’t care.
I think it’s a really good point; I hadn’t considered Becky thinking from the perspective that Godless Joyce is having a much easier time with all the things that she struggled with, while clinging to her faith; it’s not a long walk to her understanding that the faith, and her connection to it, was the crux of why many things ended up going so poorly for her, in the first place.
When I lost what little faith I had left after my mom’s terminal cancer diagnosis it wasn’t out of a selfish desire of “wah wah I prayed for a fortune and got nothing” it’s because I prayed so hard, after both of my parents ALREADY HAD CANCER, “please don’t let it be cancer again please I will do ANYTHING” only for it to be cancer, for it to be terminal (The time between diagnosis and death was 2 months) and for my dad and I to have the hellish front row viewing of my mother’s suffering and eventual decline into death. If you view Becky’s suffering as selfish temper tantruming that’s a you problem man. It isn’t selfish to feel awful after a prolonged period of suffering. Becky’s mom died from suicide. There’s no tantruming about that.
Faith is deeply personal, of course it’s selfish. The core point of religious faith is to answer questions and provide comfort, and most people have their own personal definition of how their faith works even if they don’t realize it. Who cares, selfishness isnt inherently bad. I can’t wrap my mind around whatever expectations you have of this traumatized teenager and her own personal journey with religion
If she was a real person, and you were calling this a temper tantrum, that would be a real problem. I don’t think it’s a great read of the comic either.
To me it sounds like you have an issue with atheism, inherently.
Some interesting responses. I’ll pick this one to reply to so I can say, that, no, I don’t have a problem with atheism. I think I’m just letting how much I dislike the current storyline to cause me to view everything in the worst possible light, and Joyce hooking up with Dorothy being the final straw for Becky really didn’t help with that.
I’m sorry to those who did go through hard times for how callous what I previously said was.
Okay, I think Becky’s break with her religion might be permanent. It makes sense, because she has lost every single thing that previously linked her to her religion, but it’s sad, I liked her as a lesbian Christian.
I think Becky might retain her faith but that really depends on how comfortable Willis is portraying her as such given the themes of religious trauma in the comic.
In our consensus reality, I’d suggest she may return to her faith having changed and thereby needing a very different flavor of it, possibly one that isn’t particularly well supported by community in our modern era. In a comic like this, it’ll depend on the demands of authorial intent and narrative causality.
I think it’s going to change. I don’t know that she’s actually going to surrender her faith, but I would love to be proven wrong. After all, Ethan completely changed characters after the time skip. nothing is set in stone here.
I suspect the anguish in Panel 5 Dorothy’s eyes is her realizing that Becky’s problems are much beyond her (and Joyce’s) ability to solve. It’s not really their relationship Becky is envious of, although some of her crush still lingers. It’s Joyce’s whole journey through the webcomic: getting out of the fundie enclosure, making new friends, gradually coming to terms with her true self, and finally embracing her love for Dorothy. Sure, there was hardship and heartbreak, and she even lost *some* of her family too, but nobody pointed a gun at Joyce until Becky re-entered her life. Becky has spent most of the strip denied all of that, her queer awakening haunted by one parent’s death and the other hunting her. Even her bursts of maturity are born from having to grow up much faster and in harsher conditions than Joyce ever had to deal with. It’s easy for us, with our access to the bigger picture, to say “but she has Dina, who is The Best” but I wonder if Becky has the strength left to keep that envy from curdling into resentment.
I hope this is right because that would maybe get us on track to some W Dorothy moments. L Dorothy is fun to watch but I also believe she can genuinely do good, if she can learn to accept that it’s a personal practice, and not a systemic one.
Becky’s just passed me by. God slipped away from me over the years, and I found myself growing and becoming someone I liked the less I let His approval guide me.
These days I cling to the security blanket if agnosticm. I want there to be something after this, but I’m unwilling to call it heaven or God, and I would find myself disappointed if I found out there was not. I do not dread death. I would, however, find it frustrating, unfair, to find out we get les than a century, some of us much less, in a universe so full of knowledge and wonder to revel in. To never see the beauty of a supvernova, to never see what becomes of those who remember us.
It’s my weakness. I admire Becky for finally taking that final leap from faith. I just wish this wasn’t how it happened.
Becky needs therapy ASAFP. Too much really complicated grief to try and manage by herself.
She’s: 1) a suicide survivor, 2) a victim of crime in which the perp was her father who died a violent death, 3)She’s lost her home, 4) possibly lost her girlfriend who was a major support.
I read a quote somewhere to the effect that it’s comforting the universe doesn’t care about us. That it’s simply indifferent. That things that happen are not a judgment on us.
Because if the universe were just? If it cared about us, and… all THIS happened?
Welcome to reality, Becky. I feel sorry for her but even so, religion never worked that way in the first place. Bad things happen all the time, whether you believe in a sky fairy or not. Your “holy book” never promised that god would protect you from harm, he only said he’d be “with you”. And even that was simply invented by a bunch of powerhungry men clever enough to weasel out of any proof that this god even exists. Which he doesn’t.
Religion is in your head. Nowhere else. And reality doesn’t care about what you believe.
I mean in this case we’re not arguing against the ecclesiastical powers that be and control others. We’re not even being anti-clerical in general. This is just anti-faith when all that was left of Becky’s faith was “it’s gonna be alright, there’s some fairness in the universe and I don’t have to feel alone.”
I think that’s not very refreshing at parties. If your point in a social gathering is “the universe is uncaring and bad things can happen to you at any moment” I’m sorry but you won’t be invited to my parties. There’s no one religious in my social gatherings, or very rarely so, but we don’t just shoot down other people’s hope. We shoot down whatever rancid shit their beliefs may hold, same as we would any rancid belief, religious or not. But we don’t attack them for wanting to love their dead mum as if she were comforting them.
So… manifesting then? Do not call things as they are, even if that’s the topic discussed, but reinforce people’s belief that the universe cares about them?
That is pure magical thinking. I hope you understand that there is no malice either in that “uncaring” cosmos, or do you feel that the universe cares for the well being of every single ant, every gazelle as well as every lion? Or is it that we humans are ever so special, and the universe pays us special attention?
Religion is a very complicated part of human development that is also incredibly personal. Do you bring this energy to all kinds of faith? To Jews and Muslims? Would you walk up to, say, a woman like Asma and go “You wear clothing like that because of magical thinking. Your God isn’t real, accept reality”.
We have freedom of religion (which also includes the freedom to not have a religion) for a reason. For all this reality talk, we cannot imperatively prove whether there is a force of some kind that started everything. I don’t believe in a God but I’m not going to be an asshole and force that on other people. Newsflash! Other people are still people who have their own lives, experiences, and opinions. They should be respected, even if you don’t personally believe in it, because what value is there in yelling at a suffering teenager crying about losing her mother, “Welcome to reality, dipshit! Your mother is dead! She’s never coming back! Your God cannot be proven to exist! Your life has been a lie”. That’s not a philosophical discussion (something that should be encouraged and I think would require respecting all parties involved), it’s being a God damn asshole.
You’re the one defending the original comment and going on about delusion and “the truth” in other comments, as if you somehow know the truth of the universe and anyone practicing a Thestic religion is delusional and being enabled.
Brief correction that I got you mixed up with Astarial there, I apologize. However, I am not making strawman, but you are defending and on the same side as these strawman. Nobody has said they want a philosophical discussion, this entire comment chain was set off by the comic having a character break down about why they lost their faith and the OG commenter saying “welcome to reality”. That’s not a philosophical discussion or exchange of ideas it is cruel. And you are defending that behavior under the guise of “cmon we should allow philosophical discussion”. That’s fantastic! I didn’t say philosophical discussion is bad! My comment was snark based on how this wouldn’t be the time or place to start kicking someone when they are down due to think their beliefs are dumb!
100%, especially the part abt philosophical discussion, it stifles
any potential discussion in a similar vein to how right wing christians do, im not an atheist and i believe in some sort of higher power and philosophical discussion is something i want to actively encourage!
but i mean you cant have a discussion when someone has that kinda mentality lol
Your parties sound miserable. Y’all the people that throw a pool party and then judge people for swimming lol. Telling a teenager to toughen up because they miss their dead mom, my mom’s 65 and misses her mom every single day.
And I state categorically that the existence or nonexistence of (insert deity/deities here) is essentially unprovable, as such being(s) must exist outside our natural universe. If something is capable of existing without leaving a trace anywhere you can see it, you can’t disprove it. (That’s where the “invisible pink unicorn” thing falls down, too – a unicorn would leave hoofprints, would occupy space, would occasionally make a noise of some sort. An invisible pink unicorn that exists outside space and time, however…)
🤣 Comments like these are the only reason I’d ever want Mike back. He’d be the perfect person to say this exact thing to Becky the next time they ran into each other! 10/10, perfect leadership here!
It is kind of weird in a meta sense for fictional characters to opine about the existence of God when they literally have one who makes them dance for our amusement.
When I was Christian this is how I viewed God. God was omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent but not benevolent. God was an author, and that horrifyingly meant that whatever made the more interesting story was what was going to be told and the unfortunate reality was that protagonists often have horrible things happening to them.
Not really a comforting thing and I kept that shit to myself mostly (I’d never say that to someone grieving because I’m not an actual monster given flesh. I’ve never known what to say to grieving people, but it’s 100% not that.)
No longer a Christian, but I am a writer. I do like to mess with my atheist characters a bit more than the religious ones just because sky poking them is funny and I know they’d hate it. Pretty sure all my characters would fight me on sight if they knew I was the god of their world though.
Zee replied to Kafeeteria, but yeah the structure of the forum is a lil difficult to parse in longer threads. A simple single-pixel line from each gravatar would do wonders for readability.
Yeah how dare you being rude to this poor innocent asshole that just wanna tell us religion is dumb and believing in it make you stupid. That is just so uncalled for, unlike their comment which was completely warranted and appropriate.
people say the same sort of shit about trans people and they are also wrong, you aren’t holding up some pure truth of the universe you are simply being a dickhead.
If thats how you define this then yeah I guess it does, and you’re a big one. You’re also like super duper wrong but that’s a chronic issue that nothing I say is gonna fix
Nah this is actually a super inappropriate and shitty thing to say in general, especially when so many other commenters here are saying how they relate to Becky’s experience. To be this dismissive is just, genuinely terrible and you should both do some damn introspection as to why you have so little empathy for other human beings. Downright shameful.
lmao i was going to comment “reddit moment” but youve done it already for me ty
like what kinda person do you gotta be to take such vicious joy in saying that kind of stuff, some people practice a very christian kind of atheism : /
like hey as a trans woman i really really do not like Christianity for obvious reasons and i say unkind things about it as an institution and stuff, but its not the only religion in the world! I’m glad there is a diversity in religious thought as well, it definitely helps me with my own theistic beliefs.
I think it would be sensible if this whole thread calmed the fuck down (including you nadamas (sorry, can’t find a with an accent), you tell people to fuck off).
Being rude to real people is common on social media, but that doesn’t make it OK. Have your own opinion, express it even, but don’t start having a go at other people for not having the same opinion.
My headspec for Becky’s jealousy dealing a major blow to her faith is that she felt, in so.e way, that God told her to come here. Like, she had this difficult situation, she ran to someone she loved– who at the time, she felt shared her connection with God– it was a soft landing. Then there were some more really intense trials, but being around IU was still good for her.
Now, with her jealousy, she’s recognizing she wasn’t led here by God, wasn’t connected to Joyce by God; she wanted Joyce. That’s why she came here, not as part of some divine plan. And then the loss of her faith has been painful in multiple ways, like what we see here.
I very much feel with Becky here. My mom died over a decade ago and I’ll still have sudden bouts of deeply missing her and suddenly being at an earlier stage of grieving like this every now and then. There is no rhyme nor reason to what sets this off either.
Meanwhile my dad died not quite a month ago , which is still much more directly affecting me and has triggered these bouts of sudden grief for my mom quite frequently since.
For being bisexual. The cheating was entirely irrelevant, I’m waiting for plot relevance for the necessity of cheating. Nobody wants consequences for being bisexual or gay, that’s stupid. This would’ve happened if Joyce had dumped Joe immediately before the protest or immediately after.
You know, the thing is I actually don’t even want Joyce and Dorothy to have bad consequences for cheating. I just want them and other people to recognize it was wrong.
I want the cheating to be more than just “an oopsie on the way to the OTP”.
But unfortunately I kinda think that ship has sailed a little bit. Like, we can have whatever consequences or regrets added on now, but there was still the decision for months to have the primary focus of the comic be “Aren’t these two cute”…
First off it’s what Bittersweet said, that this isn’t any sort of fallout from the fact that DoJo cheated. It would have happened whether or not DoJo were single or not, so…why have them cheat?
But more importantly, it’s the sort of consequences that mean neither Dorothy or Joyce have to grapple with doing something wrong. Especially now that we’re getting to the root of the issue, Becky’s unresolved grief about her mom, which is obviously completely unrelated to Dorothy and Joyce.
There are a few things I’d like to see that I would consider “consequences”:
-Walky going beyond just “no, we’re not cool” and telling Joyce, explicitly, to fuck off.
– Joyce needing to reckon with, or even just acknowledge, how much cheating on Joe when he was basically the perfect boyfriend for the entirety of their time together is kind of fucked up. That being able to so quickly shift gears from “happy with Joe” to “forgetting his existence” is not really a great look.
– Apologizing to Sarah for “moving in” Dorothy without her consent and *especially* for getting it on with her in the room.
I don’t want to take away from how good this particular strip is. It’s powerful and real. It’s a plot point that has been foreshadowed and is an obvious fit for how Becky’s been portrayed throughout. It’s Dave Willis at their best writing.
But yeah, it’s not at all the sort of “consequences” I’m looking for.
“Walky going beyond just “no, we’re not cool” and telling Joyce, explicitly, to fuck off.”
Sadly it kinda seems like if Walky was like “I don’t want to keep hanging out with you” most of his friends, including his sister, would not support him. If Walky stopped tolerating Joyce that would just leave Walky alone.
And that would suck for his part in the story, so he shouldn’t do that. But if he were a real person? He should absoLUTEly do that. Those people are barely his friends, and the time he spends with them could be time spent with people who actually like and support him.
I’m with you for most of the people involved with the exception of Sal.
Like, you want to get right down to it, has Joyce done anything to help Sal? Near as I can tell, it’s all been Sal helping Joyce, down to the “Joyce emulates Sal’s style”. Which isn’t any sort of flaw in their relationship, but I really don’t see why Sal should pick some fairly casual friends of hers over her own brother, a brother she’s been (slowly) improving her relationship with all year.
I’m pretty sure the extent that Sal voluntarily involves herself with Joyce is limited to walking to math together. I don’t think Joyce gets Sal in the divorce.
I mean, yeah, I don’t see why Sal should pick Joyce over Walky, but I kinda think she would regardless.
I don’t think it would be so much of a “picking sides” as just “doing my own thing”. Joyce getting Dorothy to cheat on Walky then dump him doesn’t really register on Sal’s “things to worry about” scale.
Her support for Walky is “feel better, this isn’t that bad”. If Walky decided to stop coming to the Walks I suspect Sal’s perspective would be that “He can do that. He’s his own person” but not really anything beyond that.
Sal should absolutely be supporting her brother more than “chin up”, yeah.
But I dunno, if Walky were to stop walking to math with them while Sal continued to do so…that really wouldn’t be much of a data point, you know?
Walking with Joyce to math isn’t really a sign one way or another that someone is your friend. I remember back in HS I would occasionally slow my roll on my way home so I could chat with far and away the prettiest girl in school, but I highly doubt she considered us anything more than casual acquaintances (rightfully so, I was not in her league LMAO)
There have always been two groups of people who wanted to see consequences here.
OG Team Sickos wanted the cheating to result in any number of messy occurrences, and would definitely be pumped for “Becky loses her faith and maybe breaks up with Dina”, because that’s juicy drama.
But the other group of readers, and the one that’s been consistently the most vocal about their displeasure that we haven’t had consequences, had an attitude more like: “okay, FINE, but if they’re gonna cheat, there had better be consequences for it.”
And they’re well-within their right to keep being disappointed that so far most of what has actually happened has been a reaction to Joyce and/or Dorothy’s bisexuality, or their relationship (generically), rather than a reaction to the fact that they cheated on Joe and Walky.
(Me, I’m gonna keep pointing out that most of the cast doesn’t actually know there was any cheating involved, so I still have hope for consequences there, but I’m also not as invested in any specific consequences, and I know I’d be satisfied with much less dramatic consequences than most.)
Honestly sometimes i wonder if i am weird in that i frankly do not care if they experience “cheating consequences” i frankly am not invested in the possibility that their friends will tear into them for it or something like that. I won’t really mind if it happens, but i also don’t mind if it doesn’t. I will continue to enjoy the comic, frankly i don’t think there is anything it could do to make me stop enjoying short of having a sudden ultra far right switch.
I want to see some specific things, like Walky standing up for himself, or resolution on Joe’s polyamory question. I also hope they try it! Successfully or otherwise!
But it’s not weird to not care whether or not they experience consequences, just as I don’t think it’s weird to actively hope they don’t.
I’m just also a bit tired on behalf of the people calling for consequences that folks keep kinda smug-posting like, “Are you happy now???”, trying to treat Becky and Dina breaking up as if it was a monkey’s paw result for people who wanted consequences for cheating, especially since it’s obviously not consequences for cheating… and meanwhile the Team Sickos mentality just says, “YES! This is great!”
I think i can understand people who say “Are you happy now” mostly come from a olace of annoyance and exhaustion with the near constant call for consequences. When a bunch of people has been saying/doing something you find tiresome for an extended period of time, you probably be a bit smug too if you think they get what they asked for not the how they wnated it.
I know this maybe isn’t a popular stance here but I do really hope Becky is able to find her relgion again at some point with how much of a point of strength it was for her past.
Unlike with Joyce where it was sad but felt like breaking a shackle, the strength Becky was able to gain through her own interpretation of christianity was beautiful and so losing her religion feels like a loss all on it’s own.
It can happen. I went through a period in my twenties where I could no longer paper over the logical cracks in the belief structure my church had fed me, and tried being atheist for a while. Then I had trouble logically reconciling the idea of rejecting something in which, by definition, there can be no evidence one way or the other (it’s little use sorting through the natural world, looking for data regarding a supernatural being). Over the years, I’ve returned to a sort of faith, but not one that requires me to go into a specific building one day a week to sit with a whole bunch of other people whose personal hypocrisy I’m well aware of. (For starters, if God is everywhere, why would He need me to show up to one specific place once per week for roll call?) Nor are my beliefs dictated by a particular religious leader; the only one I’ve seen who isn’t obviously scamming people is the current Pope, and I just can’t vibe with Catholicism.
So yes, Becky can find faith again, although whether it would be termed “religion” is a shakier point. Her previous deconstruction of the religion she grew up with might help on this point.
I think we can differentiate between strategy and goal.
Becky feeling strengthened and supported is the goal, while Christianity was just the strategy. It was great that Christianity helped Becky in that way, but it isn’t necessarily the only thing that could help Becky.
My hope is that Becky finds what she needs to live a bright, beautiful, positive life, and I believe that is possible regardless of whether she returns to Christianity, remains Atheist, or does something else.
Honestly, for my part I’m mostly curious to see where it goes from here. I had initially thought Becky retaining her faith was important, but also I think it would be unfair to Becky to not allow her to grow in a different direction, even if that direction is painful.
I’m actually beginning to return to faith, or turn to faith maybe, as I’ve never considered myself religious before this. I was top of my class on my Biomedical Science degree, I know all the omics and have a working theory of why hEDS, MCAS, GERD and POTS all seem to be related that has to do with either matrix metalloproteinases, or with caveolin-1s. Before this degree I sought to learn more about quantum dynamics, and as much as he deserves his bad reputation I still am amazed by Lawrence Krauss’s A Universe From Nothing – he shows that protons will spontaneously manifest in empty space, explaining why the universe seems to be moving away from us faster than light in some regions.
But that’s just it, I’ve stared down the rabbit hole and I’ve reached the point where everything is both too neatly assembled and too complex. I’ll never truly believe in things like Christianity, but I’m trending towards agnosticism the more about the micro and astronomical levels that I learn.
From a purely narrative perspective, I agree. I think it would be kind of boring if every single religious character in the story just gradually became atheists.
Religion isn’t “what makes us human” or anything, but rituals are certainly part of the complex tapestry of humanity. Whether it’s going to a specific church or blowing out candles on a birthday cake or getting together on Sundays to watch (American) football, human brains do seem to like making up little ceremonies to do together.
The thing to know about Becky is that she was raised in fundamental Evangelicalism, like Joyce. And that brand of Christianity pushes very hard on “all of it is true or none of it is true”.
That’s why you see people struggling with it when they step out of the bubble. Because they see, experience, and learn things that are in conflict with things they were told were “true”. And if that thing isn’t true, then that means none of it is.
And so you have these folks either double-down on it, making up justifications for why the thing they now know isn’t true is still true, or they have a long dark night of the soul and might crash even harder out of the religion.
Joyce was fortunate to have friends around her. They can help you come out of it or “hold on to the good” rather than scrap everything. Becky, I don’t know about. She has friends, but she’s spent so much time putting up a front of nothing bothering her that I don’t know that anyone thought about how she might be crumbling right now. Only Dorothy knows right now.
I also realised that the “it’s all real, every word!” actually ties to fascist logic as in Orwell’s 1984. You need to swallow your critical thinking, and use double-think to reconcile mutually contradictory truths.
I was raised in a loosely christian family and still had a reaction like Becky’s, though I suppose for me it was that I’d never believed any of the window dressing of christianity was true, but did believe in heaven and God, and one day had the reconciliation within me that no, it isn’t true, no one is looking out for me, especially not my deceased father. So, it can happen like this for a lot of people, but generally if something core to the religion feels irrefutably false, most people would probably abandon much of the faith part of it.
That was very true for Joyce and she even commented on it in basically those terms once, saying how if evolution was true, then there was no original sin and the whole religion fell apart.
Becky didn’t do that though. She was happy to learn about science and ditch the dogma without losing her faith. Her problem now is different.
So I have been an atheist since I was 5. But, I had a massive crisis of faith at around 15 years old, for this exact reason. It took me years to recover. My dad had died when I was 4 and even though I didn’t believe in Christianity, I had still kind of assumed heaven and hell were a thing, and that there was some kind of God who my dad was partying with and watching me and helping me through life. I talked to my dad like, all the time, in my head.
I had been baffled how Becky could go through everything she did and still retain a faith in God, but this comic brings it home to me, in a really personal way. God needs to exist for Heaven to exist for her mom to still be there in her life in some sentient way, absolutely 100% relatable.
this is a crisis of faith deconstruction i’m very familiar with. when you’ve had “god is like a perfect dad“, it’s so so hard to get to a place where you’re okay with not having that and suddenly being “alone“ in the world. What helped me was rationalizing that, if god isn’t real today, he wasn’t real back when i still believed in god, which means that the strength to handle life was *inside myself* all along. But it was hard to fully believe that. praying when you’re anxious is a coping strategy that needs replacing, not just letting go of.
the suspension of disbelief is STRONG. By now i also can’t fathom how i managed to believe all that, but i grew up in a bubble where that was the reality everyone around me believed.
All it takes is a reasonable run of good luck, or even a run of bad luck that can be explained in terms of things always going your way at the end, and then suddenly all your prayers FEEL like they were answered.
It’s not even a belief thing, the secular version is the gambler’s fallacy. Everyone falls victim to it for the same reason that you see faces in the patterns of knots and grains on wood paneling — that part of your brain that recognizes subtle patterns is always going, and it’s not trying for “accuracy” it’s trying for “absolutely don’t miss that tiger in the bush” so it’s going to find patterns that aren’t there.
What is “True” and how do we understand “true” the underlying wrestling match. Throwing in the towel at “some people say stuff they know aint “true” so nothing people say is “true”” is a lot of ex-fundamentalists angry atheist reaction. Instead of adjusting how the think “truth” is reached or what is “truth” its “give up on wrestling with the whole question, fuck you for lying and the whole subject as well” which sadly is self harm sourced in frustration with the world.
Letting go of religion is not self-harm, and Becky seems crushed far more than she seems angry. If you don’t believe anymore then you just don’t believe anymore, and there’s no sense in trying to force yourself to.
Letting go of religion isn’t self-harm, correct. But I didn’t say letting go of religion is self-harm. I said giving up on wrestling with the question of what is “truth” and how do we understand “truth” is a form of self- harm.
I would argue this is actually a protection mechanism of most religions, if they convince you that they are co-equal with “truth” are the definers of “true” it becomes increasingly hard without realizing that that process is engaged with whether or not they are sharing truths “truth”.
It becomes much harder to build any form of personal “truth” or understanding of the “truth” from a personal perspective, if the ownership of what is “true” was defined for you by a hierarchy that you have now rejected. Thus making the journey out of religion harder and increasing the likelihood parishioners would rather not face the hardship of having to acknowledge, understand and rebuild their understanding of “Truth” which they will do consciously or unconsciously there is no way to not do it.
I myself am an atheist to reveal my bias. But wrestling with what is true and how we define truth was something I had to rebuild as I understood that I had been taught inappropriate epistemological tools but the anger those who taught me falsehoods as true as blockading me from wrestling with that journey at times.
So I am speaking from a place of going through it.
It took a lot to get to this point but I do like finally seeing that jokey shell of Becky’s crack and seeing her actually express how she feels about her mother. I feel for her so much, not only because of losing my own mom, but because her sadness here is so simple and yet so vast. She just misses her mother, and took comfort in the idea that her mother was watching from golden gates and fluffy clouds, cheering her on as she overcame struggles.
I was genuinely so sad for her when I realized that there’s no evidence at all that she’s ever actually talked to ANYONE IN THE CAST about how her mom died, much less that Becky was the one who found her.
The closest we’ve ever gotten to an on-panel discussion of it appears to be Hank being briefly surprised Joyce doesn’t know, but also too worried and distracted to have possibly told Joyce then (plus, we don’t see Joyce rush to hug Becky with her eyes full of tears, like we definitely would have seen if he had).
Is Dorothy about to ironically be the first person she tells?
Does anyone else get the feeling that Becky hasn’t really let herself fully grieve for her mom?
Like part of it was her father telling her that her mother was a sinner. Then part of it was “well I can’t feel bad because my mom’s in heaven now, with God, which isn’t that sad at all”
100% agreed, if I remember right, Becky’s mom died in… let’s call it spring of last year, basically? So Becky had to bury her grief in order to do the homeschool version of graduating, get ready to go to college, and then BOOM everything went up for her so fast with her being outted and her dad, she definitely had no time to just sit and feel her feelings for a while.
man like. i’d really felt for a long time that her fixation on joyce and her insecurities with dina went a Lot deeper than ‘unable to get over her crush’ or whatever. what a deeply sad and traumatized girl
Yeah but she survived all of it. Despite everything she still ended in a happy place so God must have took her there. She needed to believe it in order to not break under the weight of trauma.
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No Dad, no
I assume she figured he was “down there”
Looking up. Screaming.
I miss video games.
God, I cannot believe I know that meme. Go get your colonoscopy, old man.
Anyone who remembers this one groans when they stand up.
And yet, recognizing the meme makes it all feel worth it.
ANCIENT REFERENCE’d!
(“ow, my age!”)
Garbage disposal, what a way to go!
The comments section is no place for a mighty warrior!
just hug her Dorothy she need it so bad TT~TT
This is definitely going to end in some form of physical contact, but I’m not entirely sure which.
Oh webcomic gods, please deliver unto us your undeserving servants some real fuckin messy and ill-thought-out lesbianism.
And, that failing, warm hugs and/or physical violence would also be fine.
That’s not real, but fuck it. I gotta believe.
The profile pic works wonder with that statement
Slap-slap-kiss… times four? Slap-slap-polycule?
Light physical contact.
Very pleased, as a new commenter, to utter my very first:
DAMN YOU WILLIS!!!
Welcome to the “DYW!” Club!
Your membership card and decoder ring will arrive in 6-10 business days.
Aw, Becky. 🙁
Dorothy, hug her!
What could go wrong?
Becky needs 50cc of Hugs stat, Dorothy, as the nearest responder you must administer the hugs, words of comfort might also be required.
Sympathy via light physical contact?
Sympathy via heavy physical contact.
Mmm.
my new favorite pickup line
Dorothy’s eyes in that last panel…
As someone who had a relatively low crisis of faith, I will say that it always hurt me more to watch friends deal with loss of faith more. Mainly because; while I could rationalize it to myself, I never felt that I could comfort them as mich as they really needed.
Over time I’ve realized that at least being there for them is enough, but in the moment its still gut wrenching.
I never saw her crying 😭
This is good drama for someone who’s formerly religious to be going through, though I’m still not a fan of the reason why it’s happening.
Hard same.
Honestly, I’m considerably more impressed and invested with this storyline than Joyce’s rn. I think if Dorothy can communicate any of this to Joyce, though, we’re gonna see some positive development for a change. Perhaps.
sadly Joyce/Dorothy is the least interesting plotline at the moment, which is a shame because they’re some of the most important characters and they’ve historically been a lot better
It’s the least interesting storyline but I will say as dull as it is is almost rather have that than ‘everyone continues to be mean to Walky’.
I hope the Joyce / Dorothy storyline is at least building up to something. It dragged badly for me, as I don’t find them cute or interesting together (nothing against the people who enjoy them, I’m glad it’s working for you).
I’m here for character development and hijinks. Becky facing the fact that she doesn’t actually believe in god anymore is interesting, as is this moment of facing up to an uncaring cosmos.
As an atheist I don’t personally feel hopeless or disillusioned at all. The universe is wonderous, and being alive is interesting. Nothing you were or did is lost. All those moments you’ve lived through are real, even after nobody remembers them anymore. We are enough. The world is enough.
That’s how I feel, too, but I didn’t spend my childhood being promised, in endless detail, that heaven would be super great, and my loved ones would all hug me again there, and that the biggest point of even being alive is getting into that heaven.
Like, I’m in a group where non-Jews ask us questions, and Jews answer, and Christians *frequently* ask, what’s the point of religion without a strong concept of heaven. That’s how central heaven is to them, that they can’t think of any other purposes to religion without it.
So, never really having that promise seems way different from independently losing it, and effectively having your mom die again (and it’s perma-death this time).
As an atheist who wasn’t raised religiously, I feel like the universe is uncaring and meaningless, and death without an afterlife is terrifying beyond my ability to convey. In fact, it gives me panic attacks if I think too hard about it. So it takes all kinds of atheists, I suppose.
Yup same!
Same. I envy religious people cuz i WISH I had their level assuradness in a hereafter.
I am a pantheist, and resonate strongly with a lot of what you said here. I hope you can take it in a good way when I say, Preach!
This, more than anything else, has been their curse to bear narratively. That said, I will happily second Nono up there in equal sentiment that it is still better than many of the alternatives we’ve been shown.
Its happening because of the immense amount of Trauma that her religious background has forced her to repress. She snapped and it all came out at once in a barrage of self hate, self doubt, and pure sadness.
As she told Dorothy, her and Joyce dating is not the cause of this, its her own emotions and traumas that caused this. The more Devoted a religious person is, the harder they crash out if something happens that makes them lose faith, we have seen it many times. Her Blind Faith being Shattered did this, and while Dorothy and Joyce could have 100% worded shit better, Becky’s inability to move on is what did this.
I’m not sure how to feel about this. I suppose everyone’s connection to religion is inherently subjective. It just feels like a selfish perspective from Becky. Using her own personal confirmation bias to support her faith, especially coming off her brief encounter with Asma a person who uses her faith as a foundation for strength. Like comparatively Asma was just tear gassed a few days ago fighting for her and her loved ones rights to exist and practice their faith without the school at least actively participating in their genocide. And she still gets up every morning and puts in the work as she says. What has Becky been putting in? But even as I ask I know that’s not the right question to ask because religion can be so personal. Saying Becky should try harder is maybe too cruel and dismissive. But I do wonder what she was really believing for.
Regardless of how hard or easy one’s life is, when it comes to stuff like religion and other existential related topics a lot of it ultimately boils down to the incredibly subjective ways individuals deal with the constant background knowledge we all hold in the back of our heads: that someday all the people we know and love will die and eventually ourselves as well.
Well stated.
The hardest part of holding that particular background knowledge is avoiding revisiting that truth. The mind returns like a tongue that can’t leave an extraction site alone. Escaping the spiraling thoughts is one battle and staying away from the pit’s edge is another.
In the depths of a [midlife] crises it helps to remind yourself of previous times you grappled with that knowledge. (Did Mr. Rogers singing “to know you’re alive” trigger the realization that one day you wouldn’t be? Remember that you worked through it in grade school, and you can do it again.)
Acknowledge that it’s real and horrifying, but also that there are more immediate concerns left unattended. Be gentle with yourself and open to redirection.
Sometimes it takes something absurd to snap you back to reality. Mine was an acorn that dropped onto the road in front of me and bounced higher than the car hood. “What?!” [For Allie Brosch of hyperboleandahalf on blogspot, it was a lone kernel of corn under the fridge (2013/05/depression-part-two).]
Warm wishes to you all in this hectic season.
Asma does all that and also goes bowling.
Don’t trust bowling.
I mean, the main answer is: She was believing because she was raised to believe. Because it gave her comfort (which it no longer seems to do). I don’t think it’s fair or at all a good idea to compare two people’s traumas like “Person A has a ‘harder’ life than you do and they have faith so you’re not doing enough”.
There’s no reason Becky should believe in a god, and it’s fine that she doesn’t now. It’s also fine if she just renegotiates her personal relationship with her deity at a later date or if she never does. Ultimately, she didn’t owe her belief to anyone, so it can’t be a selfish act (because it harms no one) to release that belief.
I’m not trying to compare trauma as much as compare faith. I think the comic itself is doing that by having that interaction between Asma and Becky. Becky even implying she isn’t strong enough and I have to wonder why she believes that. Whatever reason she has for losing faith or lapsing in it are hers to reconcile, I just wonder if it’s because she no longer believes her faith is serving her? Selfishness is not always at the expense of others. Quite the opposite in fact.
I think selfishness requires that you disregard the feelings or needs of others, but it wouldn’t be the first time (even this week) that I find out people have wildly differing definitions of words I thought were cut-and-dried.
As for the rest, fair enough.
I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between Asma and Becky here.
Asma’s problems are external to her faith, “others” that she is fighting, and those who share her faith are on her side.
Becky’s problems are all internal, caused by people inside her faith, and that’s dismantling it. First both her parents, then her whole church, and now Joyce, are all people she shares her faith with, and they are the ones causing her to hurt. I’m not surprised she’s shaken by all of this.
It’s a lot easier to keep your faith when horrible things are done by outsiders and you and your fellow faithful stand up against it, then when all the horrible things are done by your fellow faithful and you feel you’ve got nobody on your side.
Fair points and Nymph also made a great point that Becky was indoctrinated into her beliefs without getting choice. I don’t think we know enough about Asma to assume much of what her religious experience has been. I question Becky because she’s a lesbian raised in the structure of fundamental Christianity. She was already rewriting her faith just to exist. How was she justifying that before where it doesn’t apply now? What did her faith actually mean to her? I thought it was “God answers lesbian prayers.” (Is that her quote or just a comments thing?) But apparently that wasn’t it.
I don’t know much about faith, but I think Becky pretty much says it here: In the face of everything, she still genuinely felt that God was real and was watching out for her. Now she doesn’t. That’s basically it.
It makes an interesting contrast to Joyce, whose loss of faith came with realising she’d never actually felt that, she was just raised to believe she was supposed to. So her response was “If all this stuff I’ve been taught is wrong, that includes God”, while Becky’s was “If all this stuff I’ve been taught is wrong, they’ve probably got God wrong as well.”
it is a quote! God answers lesbian prayers:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/misreading/
What is ”putting in the work” in this context? Keep trying to convince herself that against all evidence, the god of the Bible is a real and tangible, all powerful force, and personally looking after her?
Why is ”putting in the work” a good thing?
Putting in the work can mean anything, it’s just what Asma said.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-16/02-im-the-problem-its-me/selfdiscipline/
Whatever that means is unique to her, but it’s not a coincidence that in this story arc where Becky is having a crisis of faith we open with what could be the most devout character in the comic and she’s promoting and practicing her self discipline. Stating that it’s her foundation that gives her strength, whether through her routine prayer, her cultural expression, community, good will, ect.
By comparison what does putting in the work mean to Becky? How was she practicing her faith? Was it just vibes? Were there other things she liked? For instance she seemed to enjoy going to the Sunday services with Jacob, possibly the community fostered there. She liked dressing up in soft butch formal attire, she liked the songs. Those things still exist even if her mom is gone and she can’t kiss the girl she likes. What was Becky’s foundation now that it has seemingly crumbled and what was she doing to keep it strong when tested?
I’m not sure there are even answers to these questions. They’re just interesting questions to ask. I think Becky was already doing a lot of work internally to keep her faith. I’m wondering if she understands that and can articulate what that work was and why it doesn’t work now.
I just don’t understand “putting in the work” in the context of Christianity at all. Is one supposed to struggle to silence the parts of ones mind that notice the inconsistencies? Is the work going to church even if you don’t feel like it, and who is that for?
AFAIK the answer is because your community will notice if you don’t, and they’ll judge you. Surely it can’t be that you are doing work that God needs somehow. The Alpha and the Omega can’t be dependent on Becky “doing the work” on His behalf.
I can’t think of a more fundamentally narcissistic belief than “I’m important to the supreme being of the universe, and he personally cares about me”. If we weren’t used to religion, and somebody claimed this, we’d think there is something deeply wrong with them.
Okay, I really disagree with a lot of what you’re saying here. And I’ll try to be polite about how I voice that, but apologies in advance if I come across as aggressive (tone is fricking hard).
On the note of “putting in the work” I’d say it’s more taking the time to do the things about your faith that give you strength or comfort. I’m speaking from a Protestant perspective here, so can’t speak for most people actually, but that’s what I would say. Putting in the work is partaking in the activities offered by your community, and doing your best to give back to that community. If that doesn’t feel right anymore, then it doesn’t. You do something else. But as Sirksome said, things like routine, cultural expression and community are central tenets. Putting in the work is not censoring your brain, it’s finding ways to live (religiously or irreligiously) that work for you.
The phrase “I’m important to the supreme being of the universe, and he personally cares about me” in my ears speaks more to the incomprehensibility of God, as I imagine them, than about human narcissism. A being so vast that every single life is loved and special in their eyes. Of course, if said phrase then continues: “The supreme being cares about me/my group way more than anyone else, and thus we are special above the rest of the world and the other people in it”, then you have a problem. But one is not necessarily the other.
And no, going to church is not “putting in the work”, it doesn’t benefit anyone aside from the people in charge of said church. Which is bad, because the kind of church that would make you do that could not be run by good people, since bullshit systems like that serve the power hungry.
*going to church when you don’t want to
<3
Thanks for all this, including that distinction between being cared about versus being cared about more than others. Not the same. I was raised Christian and am now an eclectic Pagan/UU/nature mystic/pantheist, and yet our theology seems really resonant. I have heard the Universe telling me, "I take you seriously," when I didn't feel like I could take myself seriously. It was so healing. And I don't doubt that the Universe takes every being just as seriously.
Someone ceasing believing their god(s) exist typically isn’t the result of a traumatic experience. You see it many times in fiction. In real life, it might change, but usually not just a sudden reversal (the same goes for a skeptic, they typically don’t suddenly believe a god or gods exist merely because of an emotional or physical trauma).
In real life, I expect it would be more likely that Becky converts from Christianity to Islam than suddenly cease religiosity because of her emotional trauma.
Huh…I don’t have statistics to back me up but I highly suspect there’s way more Christians defecting into secularism than into Islam, at least in the US.
OK never mind I wanted statistics and these seem to agree with me, although I can’t find a graph that shows what exactly what I was looking for. But I don’t see that any of the religions or denominations surveyed have increased in members/people identifying with it, and religious “nones” have over doubled in size.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/religious-switching/
I have seen it argued, and I find it convincing, that this is part of why politics have gotten so intense. As people move away from religious communities, they bring that level of religious fervor into politics instead.
I am at this point just making peace with the Protest/Joyrothy Kiss as the cost of doing business. It’s a major plot beat and turning point and it kind of sucks.
That is hardly without precedent in ongoing serial fiction. It happens, and it’s frustrating, but I have dealt with worse.
I’m kind of sad about this development in general. I liked the contrast between Joyce losing her faith and Becky’s maybe even getting stronger.
And I know it’s deeper than that, but after everything else having it tied to Joyce being gay but not interested in her seems a weird narrative choice.
its happening because a build up of trauma from being abused and in a high control cult type group, the thing with joyce is just like the straw thats breaking the camels back. Id be fucked up too in her position.
Out in the city, in the cold world outside
I don’t want pity, just a safe place to hide
Mama, please, take me back inside
(Mother Love by Queen, 1995)
BTW happy Hanukkah to those here who celebrate! 🕎🕯🍩
Lots of latkes and gambling with chocolate!
Happy Hanukkah!
Happy Hanukkah!
Chag Sameach to you as well, NG!
I hope you are feeling better!
3 days on Mupirocin, and… better???
well I’m feeling itchier, that’s for sure @-@
Itchy is good though, no? It’s a sign of healing. If it’s not a sign of allergy…
Keep up the healing! Sending hopes!
Itch and the whole world itches with you. Or something like that.
Keep up the good work!
Often, but with this antibiotic, I’m pretty sure it’s a side-effect.
We have so many antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria now, it is so good to have alternatives. I hope this is gonna work, and totally fix the issue.
Chag sameach! i’m excited to be able to share hanukkah with my gf, it’s gonna be her first and it’s one of my faves because I love being able to like *do* stuff with Judaica. We’re gonna have to be starting late because I don’t get there until the second night but eh, there’s (hopefully) next year too
Happy Chanukah!
Tonight my almost-2-year-old first encountered the concept of a dreidl. He hasn’t seen an actual dreidl yet and has no idea it is a small toy, but he fully understands that it involves spinning around really fast until you can’t stand up anymore and you fall over giggling. 100% correct, tiny dreidl child.
You better hug her dammit, and get her some therapy.
Then get yourself and Joyce some Therapy.
Just get everybody therapy.
Therapy will put the universe at your back. It’ll give you the assurance that everything’ll be okay. Therapy will replace your mother and you will forget all about her.
None of which is true, but sometimes for some people, it seems to me that therapy is their god.
Of course I’m speaking as someone who never had any, and probably could have benefited at one point or another.
Therapy might not make Massive changes to a person’s well being, but it is a safe space to talk about what troubles you, to a person who actually has a degree that states they know what they are talking about.
Its like Directed Self Reflection. You tell them what is bothering you, they tell you the things that might be causing it and ways to deal with your emotions in a healthy way. Like keeping a Journal, thats a popular one and it honestly helps, writing down your feelings is what keeps a lot of people in bad situations from choosing to end it.
Everybody should get therapy, maybe not Prolonged therapy, but I believe that having at least 1 visit will benefit anybody who actually participates and takes it seriously.
That being said, make sure you get a good therapist that is actually specialized in what is troubling you. A Good Doctor can recommend you a Good Therapist most of the time.
I mean, I think there is certainly a discussion to be had about the professionalization/commercialization of emotional support.
On one hand it is good to have therapy available and good for people to be able to get it when needed.
On the other hand sometimes it seems like therapy is just assumed to fix everything, and is pushed for partially as an alternative to building rich supportive communities.
Any good therapist will tell you that its not there to fix everything, its there to assist YOU in making the choices needed to fix things yourself. Its a Helping Hand, not a Cure. If you don’t put in the work, if you don’t honestly want to get better and stick to the habits they can introduce to you, then the Therapy will do very little for you.
One thing that Therapists will tell people is to find people who you trust and create connections. They actively fight becoming Friends with their patients, because they don’t want their patients to see them as that Lifeline, as that could slow their personal growth and quickly become unprofessional.
The alternative is to just take the medications that Doctors will prescribe that don’t actually fix a problem, just numb it and sometimes replace the regular side effects with something worse.
If you try to just listen to random people online, who didn’t go to college to get a degree in mental health, your just as likely to find Unhelpful/harmful information as you are anything even slightly useful.
Therapy really should be cheaper, but you can blame our countries reliance on Insurance Companies and its largely harmful view on Healthcare in general. Its fairly affordable in most other countries that have it as an option.
Don’t dismiss the medications entirely. Therapy’s good for a lot of things, but there are some that really are just chemical imbalances that can’t be fixed by therapy.
Tsk tsk tsk. Therapy isn’t leadership.
And here we hit the nail on the head – it’s not about Joyce and Dorothy, not really. That’s simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. Joyce was the one anchor had left to her former life, to the foundations of her faith. She’s lost everything else – her father was killed, her mother killed herself, her congregation was complicit in kidnapping her and have shunned her. But she still had Joyce, reliable Joyce. Only Joyce kept changing – now she’s atheist, now she’s gay – and Becky has nothing, no anchor to her old life, her childhood, not even the best friend she grew up with because she’s grown into a different person now. And so the walls come tumbling down, the floodgates open, and we’re left with this. Becky is broken. How will she begin to put the pieces back together? It starts with Dina.
Becky has been using Joyce as a tether since she joined the main cast.
“Same ol’ Joyce.”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/mistakes/
The atheism argument was the first crack, but this is absolute, definitive proof that she’s just not the “same ol’ Joyce” anymore.
…do laundry…
Yeah, it’s really been sad to look back and see how much of Becky’s flood of doubt and sadness was being held back by her using Joyce as this load bering pillar. Coincidentally; Joyce looked at Becky as incredibly strong and brave for going through all of that, not knowing how much of it relied on her being her.
Yeah, at least Becky is actually naming it. Which is good and healthy.
I was about to agree with you, but now that I think about it for a second she could probably reach out to Hank.
… it’s not much, and I don’t know how much good it would do, and I’m not surprised she’s not thinking of it, but at least that’s a second piece of her former life that’s not gone.
And it would do Hank some good, too. He’s a adrift on what his role is now.
… is it weird that it’s comforting to know that this is the reason? That it’s not really about jealousy so much as everything changing?
I feel like I have to disagree – it’s clearly at least somewhat about Joyce and Dorothy, it was only the *last* strip where Becky explained that she thinks she’s broken up with Dina because Dina has self respect and saw “how clearly jealous” Becky had been towards Dorothy. Like, that was literally the last thing said in conversation before we segued into how terrible it feels for Becky that she’s lost her faith in god.
Yeah, it’s not just jealousy, but also not not jealousy. It’s like what effects of the jealousy revealed to Dina.
While Dina doesn’t believe in God/have religious faith she understood it was something important to Becky. But with Becky’s reaction to Joyce and Dorothy hooking up Dina was made to feel that Becky’s love for Dina was less important/had less capacity to affirm that faith than Becky’s jealousy over Joyce to be able to destroy that same faith.
Her jealousy is symptomatic, not causative.
I agree with you, except for the last part: Should be Dina the person that must help Becky? She was reject by her.
As much as the Joyce that was represented Becky’s connection to her old life and childhood, Dina represents her connection to her new life and adulthood. The damage to their relationship is not irreparable, though Becky, in her self-blaming malaise, may think otherwise. Repairing it is going to be a crucial step in Becky moving forward and healing from the loss of her childhood.
yea! thats what im sayin! feel like some people arent really taking the bigger picture into account.
o3o Y’know despite having been agnostic atheist most of my life I find it pretty hard to square the circle of the permanence of death. Anytime I start to wrap my mind around it I am overwhelmed by such a sense of dread it makes me wanna curl up into a ball. Which is odd cuz I don’t necessarily believe in an afterlife. I guess I just hope there is one.
Skill issue. Confront it, accept it, and then use that to maximize what you get out of the time you have on earth.
😛 I mean I think a lot about dying.
But I don’t like doing stuff that maximizes my time on earth. It seems exhausting. Also I’m 31. I’ve already fallen behind on all of my dreams. And I truly hate everything so much that the only reason I continue to live is because the total cessation of consciousness is more terrifying than anything. The world’s going to a place that I don’t wanna live in and getting the most out of life just feels like an invitation to endless stress and frustration.
I hear you, Yoto.
Sending caring.
I’m sorry you are feeling so much stress and frustration. I think you’re an incredible artist, at least, FWIW, and from what I’ve seen you’re a good person, too.
Life isn’t a race, you know? Apparently the neurology nerds are now saying adolescence lasts from age 9 to 32 or so. (I think I saw it in Willis’s feed, but here’s the study:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-65974-8 )
So you’re nowhere near “behind” on anything, as far as I can tell. The scenic route *is* the goal itself, sometimes.
I hope you can cut yourself some slack and feel some pride in what you *have* attained abd learned already.
Sending hopes for your peace of mind. It’s rough, buddy. It’s a hard time. That’s why community counts so much right now.
I can also just say that being in your 30s is way better than being in your 20s. Most of your problems are still the same, but now you’re better at dealing with them. Your brain doesn’t blow itself up or do stupid shit as often. It’s just generally more stable, at least, relative to the overall stability of your situation. Some say youth is wasted on the young, but I wouldn’t wish youth on anyone. It’s the worst time of your life, you just don’t know any better while you’re there.
The universe is a quantum wave function evolving deterministically. In some branches of the wave function, you die within an hour or the next time you step outside and a photon from every star in the sky strikes your body and you fry to death. Those branches have a small magnitude. In some branches of the evolving wave function you will continue to survive indefinitely. Those branches have an even smaller magnitude.
Take comfort in the fact that you experience an inherently biased sample. You will only experience those branches of the universe in which you continue to survive. From a subjective point of view, in extremus, the universe itself will rise up to defend you.
(Sharing my own teleporter-problem-related existential horror relevant to this topic: for a lot of the more probable methods of death there’s a point at which (effectively?) all of the worldlines in which you’re able to survive the next few minutes have already diverged from your current worldline.
‘Fear of consciousness termination’ can be reframed as ‘Fear of one day finding yourself in one of those worldlines’.
In practice, even for ending up in one of those worldlines while unconscious, you’re then just not even aware that now you’re a mindform instance that’s effectively-inevitably about to be snuffed out forever.
Other instances of you will still remember being who you would have remembered being, but your own consciousness can’t skip horizontally out of a worldline in which it’s about to die into one in which it isn’t.
Usually ‘where there’s life there’s hope’–there might be all sorts of medical advances or surprising changes in the future world as long as you’re alive to benefit from them–but even if before diverging you can try to comfort yourself that ‘you’ at that point will continue on,
those ‘yous’ which don’t will face a nightmare made real,
which makes it a viable nightmare even before diverging.
Or putting it more briefly:
You’re about to step into a blue teleporter, which will turn you into two identical instances teleported into a green booth and a red booth, which can see each other.
The ‘you’ teleported into the red booth will be killed a few seconds later (while the ‘you’ in the green booth watches) and will probably die screaming.
The question is, should the ‘you’ in the blue booth feel fear (/existential dread)?
Even if knowing there will be survival in the green booth, when stepping into the blue booth there’s the knowledge of 50% probability of the next subjective experiences being in the red booth.
After diverging past the point of no return, you’re not going to share both the green booth and red booth experiences and keep on living after you die.
(I am horrified by this but keep on living well and as safely as I meaningfully can, because so far there is nothing else I can do.)
The thing is, you are continuously in the blue booth and have been all your life, whether you have ever realized it or not. Being unable to watch probably helps.
I’m not touting it as a prophylactic against all dread, merely against the dread of complete lack of existence. As is evident from conversations elsewhere in the comment section, and even the strip itself, it does nothing at all for the dread of losing a loved one.
I’m 51. I advice against trying to defince your worth via ”achievements”. Try your best to be a positive force in the world, or at least not a negative one. Be kind, and accept your own flaws (but work on them).
This is all we get. Choose to be good.
“If nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do.”
(Yes, from Angel: The Series.)
I find Monty Python’s Galaxy Song puts a genuinely comforting spin (pun intended) on this sort of dread.
I don’t know. I’m just studying witchcraft and some similar shit, until find something that makes sense. Until there, I’ll keep exploring
I know saying ‘skill issue’ is a big internet meme thing to do but when someone is expressing existential dread, that’s not the time to respond like “lmao skill issue bro”. Be a bit more compassionate in the future. That’s the real skill issue here.
Also this.
I vaguely hope there is one for other people, but I want an opt-out choice.
Nope, you might as well enjoy life, because subjectively speaking, you’re stuck with it.
I hope there is one for our cats, at least. They have all deserved it.
Nothing wrong with hoping there’s an afterlife, IMO.
I am same dread opposite source. The idea of eternal life, whether that’s heaven, reincarnation or some ghost switch, fills me with immense dread. Forever is a long time and I never wanted the time I have now. I /do/ believe some kind of afterlife is possible or likely, and I hope like hell it’s not.
I’m more afraid of a forever where I no longer exist. Like if my soul doesn’t retain my memories and personality then that’s the same as being dead. It doesn’t matter if my soul persists forever if I, yoto, don’t. Y’know?
Personally that kind of is my fear. Eternal consciousness with eternal nothingness. I’m happy to be erased completely as long as I’m not aware. I’m just scared of the eternal sensory deprivation chamber
If I think too hard about either scenario (typically at night-time) for death: complete total cessation of consciousness or an eternity of consciousness that never ends, I can get existential dread for both of them, so that’s double the fun for me.
Honestly, I am not which I would prefer/find worse, I think eternal consciousness, but your consciousness in just in a total unchanging black (or white or grey) void, is arguably the most existentially scary prospect.
If I had to describe a preference I think I would prefer if death isn’t simply the total absolute cessation/annihilation/nonexistence of consciousness but I definitely don’t want my individual consciousness to continue to exist for perpetuity. Something like joining a greater universal Buddha-nature consciousness of the universe or something to how the soul and daemons break down into Dust in Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials book series.
Out of curiosity, how would you feel about a continuing existence in which you can only ever remember the last 40 years?
Probably still the same, especially if the circumstances of that continuing consciousness are the same, like only remembering 40 versus infinity doesn’t make much of a difference if its in an unchanging void. And even if it isn’t a void one still has the self-awareness that it’s continuous even if your memory doesn’t extend past 40 years.
Fuckin’ real. I don’t believe in an afterlife, but it’s kinda one of those things I can’t fucking look straight at and still my sanity; I’ve tried.
So I hope I always hope I’m wrong, but I doubt I am.
Yeah, I’ve had a couple really vivid nightmares imagining how it must feel to be in a mind fading into non-existence. The thought terrifies me. Probably more than the idea of non-existence itself. Being nothing probably wouldn’t be all that bad. Becoming nothing is probably horrifying.
I would quite like there to be an afterlife though. That would be nice.
Hmmm. I have maybe 20 years left, 30 if I’m lucky. At the moment I have no desire to go. But both my parents did when they got there, so maybe I will. As for afterlife, maybe it is like Sir Terry Pratchet says: you get what you expect!
It’s interesting because I’ve also been agnostic/atheist all my life (raised without any religion) and I’ve never really had that existential dread of non-existence after death. I’m certainly afraid of the suffering that so often leads up to it and I get the desire to be reunited with loved ones who’ve died, but non-existence itself? I know it’s common, but that fear doesn’t resonate with me at all.
Same here, theJeff
I know that’s literally their name but I can’t help but read that sentence in Starfire’s voice.
I’m Christian but yeah the idea of being wrong about death is terrifying to me, true abstract nothingness, can’t even wrap my head around it.
I describe myself as having the base amount of spiritualism required by the human brain to not go insane. I like the idea of reincarnation, so I’ve just sorta baked that in. Death isn’t an end, just a reset. Tho idk how much comfort I’ll be able to keep finding in that since I really don’t wanna see what this place is like in a hundred years. Maybe it’ll be anime rules, I can get isekai’d into my favorite romance fantasy series or smth
I just pray to whatever that Bleach wasnt right about death, I don’t wanna die and immediately become homeless and impoverished in feudal Japan for like 60 years
Hey man it’s not all bad. You could always go to the infinite desert night dimension where you’ll be hunted to be eaten for the remainder of all time
Or literal actual hell.
Or you could be lost in the world inbetween until you lose your physical form and just because one of countless others as the literal building blocks for a pocket dimension.
I kinda want the Coco/Book of Life afterlife where as long as I’m remembered I get to chill with my family for all eternity. That said eventually the sun will go supernova and kill everyone meaning nobody will be remembered and every single human will be in the land of the forgotten.
I love Coco for that even in the non-literal sense. I want to leave tokens and stories behind in my house to people that have passed just because the idea of atleast remembering the dead, even those from generations ago is a small form of comfort to me. that even in abstract absence you’re atleast never forgotten.
(atleast until the heatdeath of the universe)
See I would like reincarnation more if…
1. I could retain my memories which I obviously can’t do or I’d remember my previous lives
and
2. If being any other animal than human wasn’t so terrifying. I don’t wanna be a bug. Or any fish, really. Best case scenario is I’m a really well taken care of housecat or something.
Relatable; my dad died alone in a hospice in his sleep, his most feared way to go, and it can pop up in my mind to haunt me as well. I takes some work to just accept things as they are; even if they aren’t what I would like them to be, but I take comfort in knowing that it’s an experience that is uniquely human.
Man, do I feel this. Thinking about it too hard makes me start hyperventilating and whimpering. I’d take Christian hell a million times over nonexistence.
Sounds like it’s about time for Becky to start collecting more Earth hugs instead. Maybe that’s a concrete thing Dorothy could help her out with right now. It’d probably help her a lot more than a notarized apology letter, anyway.
‘sympathy via heavy physical contact’
As someone with a dead dad, yeah it’s complicated if you don’t believe in the afterlife. You can really see why so many people want/choose to believe in “something after” even if there’s no real evidence. The idea that it just… ends and you’ll never see those people again is devastating and terrifying.
it’d suck to lose faith that way and realizing passed away loved ones aren’t ‘looking down on you ‘ but at least she still has teh memories although it’d be sucky if they didn’t still have old pics and stuff since becky/joyce grew up in a pre social media era
Hugs for Becky. She does trust Dorothy to a great extent. After all, this was a very personal thing to disclose. Possibly also necessary for her to heal? My people skills (relationship skills in particular) are lacking, but shouldn’t she be having this conversation with Dina?
I don’t imagine she’s in the right mental space to talk with Dina right now. She thinks she’s on considerably worse footing with her than she actually is.
It’s fine to have this conversation with Dorothy. It’s not a single-use conversation, and it’s a good idea to get your thoughts in order before talking to someone you’ve upset.
Also contrary to popular belief, they are friends. And they are still friends even after kissgate. They’ve had important conversations before, namely Yale. And Dotty is one of the few people Becky is comfortable unmasking around
Nymph: You said it for me, thanks.
Everyone saying that Dorothy should hug her…
Eh she needs a hug but dotty might not be the best person to do it
You can’t always get the perfect person. Dina’s not there right now, nor is Joyce, so Dorothy might have to fill in.
Plays “Love The One You’re With” on hacked muzak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH3ruuml-R4
To repeat a saying I’ve been in proximity to a lot, recently, “the best ability is availability.”
She may or may not be the best choice, but she’s the only one who’s there right now.
better than booster, i feel like they’d end up putting their foot in their mouth/prolly not too religious themselves/potentially looking down on it
Whole lotta assumptions. How’d booster even come up here?
Damn. Ya can’t even trust dead moms.
I feel bad for laughing at this one
And you should feel bad, but laughing is the only rational response.
laughing is actually a pretty good solution to feeling bad
As someone who lost their mom a year ago, this hurts. I’m surrounded by the platitudes of her being in a better place and looking down on me and being proud of me, but I can’t /believe/ any of that. To me, she’s just gone. And I feel like I have to mourn that in silence while my sister talks about our mom visiting her in her dreams. I know I don’t know for certain what happens when we die, but I’m drawn to the most ‘logical’ conclusion, that the end is simply the end in the same way there was nothing before.
Great, now I need 50 ccs of hugs.
We just buried my dad last weekend. Yeah. This strip HITS.
*big internet hug of support* My mom has been gone for almost 5 years now, my best advice and support is that it does get better with time.
Hug. I lost my older brother this year. It is very difficult.
I lost one of my close internet friends earlier this year which I know sounds like no big deal comparatively but it’s the first time someone my age I knew has passed away. I’m still having trouble coping with his absence.
A dozen years ago, for me. I still miss her often – mostly around our shared birthday (about a week apart, and we almost always celebrated them together) – but not as often, if that helps at all. Another mixed blessing is that I take after her very strongly, and so I never have to wonder for more than a moment how she’d react to the many things I wish I could show or tell her about, as I often did before.
The pain fades; the love does not. I hope the first happens for you soon. Until then, you have my deepest sympathies.
Fifteen years ago last week, here; and dad three and a half years later — and it never stops hitting, but it does stop hurting, at least as much.
Sending caring to all us lossers…
❤️🩹
I may not care much for becky’s general demeanor, but Brand New Nihilist is never fun so I sympathize
I do not have strong fellings on Becky’s hair poll! I have strong fellings about her!
Hair today. Gone tommorow.
Please do not make this about you, Dotty.
Comfort through moderate physical contact!
Dina is totally hearing all of this.
Oh the second panel hits me hard. The feeling of no God really being in your corner hurtttssa
Oh boo-hoo, her cartoon mom is cartoon dead. She can just make a ten-tier megasandwich, stretch out her jaw, and eat the thing in one bite about it.
i got bad news scoob
its cartoons all the way down
Why don’t you go unknowingly walk off a ledge and not fall until you look down!
Stop it.
The secret is don’t look down.
Alternately, you can throw yourself at the ground and miss.
But usually that only works for satellites and space stations.
I thought you were saying something else. My apologies.
What’s the problem? All I have to do is not look down, don’t be such a killjoy.
I think you better take this “Yipes!” signboard just in case.
Well now that’s just clear self-sabotage. If you need it, it’s not as if you can’t just draw one up really fast, using the contents of your pocket
See, this is one of the problems that happen when your cartoon stretches believability and reason so much, and for so long. When it comes time to deliver a gut punch, it has the same amount of emotional leverage as Marmaduke.
For those who weren’t reading comics in the mid 2000s, this is how you get Loss.
If you don’t get a gut punch from today’s strip, I would call you defective.
Since it’s me saying it, it isn’t definitive. But it is indicative.
Also, Damn You Willis.
Maybe we just agree that different things pull different people’s heartstrings instead of rushing to call strangers “defective” for not feeling how you feel about something.
Fair point.
But it’s me feeling it, so it OUGHT to be universal.
Seriously, I don’t really understand how someone who has been following the comic long enough to become emotionally involved with the characters is able to not feel the gut punch. It makes me wonder what else they can’t feel.
And since I’m obviously not the defective one, it’s got to be them.
In short, you’re completely right, but I’m unrepentant.
That’s probably because you are a better person than I am, person who is mostly a complete stranger.
Look, if Ziggy was telling Fluff that he was sad because he realized his dead mom wasn’t watching from heaven, I wouldn’t feel the gut punch either.
I’ve been reading since Shortpacked. It’s not the same strip now. I’m not going to argue about how believable it is or isn’t that Becky’s life is perched on a Jenga brick titled “Joyce’s Straightness and Why She Won’t Fuck Me,” but its comic that seemingly all her friends recognize just how unhinged she is so that they dont mind pulling off Garfield-level shenanigans when breaking it to their exes, but are devastated when the gay friend realizes something that would only hurt her if she actively was emotionally cheating on her girlfriend.
… What? Ok so that is just a weird way to look at this. In general.
She lost her mom. Her dad went crazy. Kicked out of school. Kidnapped, then had her friends kidnapped. Each time she’s like ” Nope, golly, this makes my faith stronger.”
And she’s rescued by freaking superheroes, twice. Given a job most people would kill for. A free ride to school. Enough discretionary funds to give her girlfriend, who is summarily without flaws, the best gift ever. And to all of that, she’s like, God dang, that just proves god is real, yo.
But then her high school crush, who she was already rejected from, she learns that it’s not oh, I’m sorry, I’m straight, but now its oh, I’m sorry, you’re just not my type, and THAT is enough for her to go “gawsh theres no god.”?
Give her thirty more near-death experiences and kill ten more close family members and whatever, but Joyce Brown doesn’t want to get in my pants is a “God doesnt exist” moment?
And that’s fine, whatever. So there was no foreshadowing, no prior hint, whatever. But the biggest thing is, Dorothy and Joyce didjt even really care about the cheating; they only cared about how this would hurt Becky, The Girl With The Amazing Girlfriend And Best Relationship.
Like, how self-centered do you have to be, to believe without a shadow of a doubt that someone in a stable loving relationship will be devastated because you aren’t in a relationship with them? And then, how completely fucked up is it that they’re all RIGHT? That, oh, yeah, learning that you’re just not your best friend’s type is enough to kill their relationship AND their faith.
This reminds me of so many books I’ve read by singular authors, whose main characters were author inserts, and didnt realize as the story went on that they were turning them into a monster. Terry Goodkind, Ernest Cline, Lev Grossmsn, Orson Scott Card. Theres this weird bit where it’s like, “OK, this is where the moral should be, and… uh, no? We’re doubling down? Main character didn’t learn anything? OK.”
So no, Becky’s crisis of faith, brought on by learning that the person she REALLY wanted to be in a relationship just wasn’t into her that way, when she already knew she wasn’t into her that way, which now causes her to wander the school and cut her hair and have vaguely semi offensive conversations with acquaintances about how she’s an athiest now frfr, just isn’t doing it to for me. It has all the emotional weight of I Ii II L.
Yeeeag i don’t care enough about this to read all that. Have fun with whatever you have going on.
No. You don’t get to call people defective because of their lack of reaction to a comic strip.
This. Effing this.
I never remember to harmonise my gravatars.
Can we do it to people who decry our even having a reaction to a comic strip?
I mean even then I would not use the word “defective”. It’s like “degenerate”, it’s not a word that’s okay to say about human beings.
If this were a comic that has never been serious and was entirely devoted to wacky non sequitur rather than character development, then this would be Loss. But it’s not. How Joyce and the others change from their exposure to a bigger world has always been the point.
This is not even remotely comparable to the comedy gold that is Loss. I mean to start with this kind of emotional beat is standard for this comic, it’s not a sudden turn. Unlike loss, this is also not funny
To be honest, when Loss posted, I felt sad. And was also upset that so many people thought it was funny, at first.
Wait you genuinely compared this strip to loss? I thought it was a joke because that would an absurd thing to say seriously.
Aww, poor Becky…
I didn’t even think about her mom. She had that assurance that her mom was always there and would be waiting, even if she couldn’t see it. And now it’s gone.
The last bit of her comfort is gone.
Unrelated: finally figured out why my comments were stuck. That was a frustrating two days.
She made a castle of cards. Sadly, she left “Joyce” one as a pivot.
Poor Becky. I want her to get her own book one day where everything isn’t terrible forever
Ah, the center of Becky’s faith was that her mom was still looking out for her? That makes sense. And I’ve seen that belief in the real world too. Well done, Willis.
This would be a lot more impactful without the last two panels. Becky’s going through an emotional crisis and Willis wants to focus on how it makes Dorothy feel.
Meanwhile, an alternate universe without the last two panels:
“I can’t believe Dorothy doesn’t care about what Becky is feeling!”
(Not meant as a judgment call on you specifically, just calling out the very inconsistent way I’ve seen Dorothy be treated recently)
As someone who’s been an atheist for over 20 years, I feel for Becky in this strip. I don’t have that comforting belief that a deity is looking out for me. I don’t have the belief that I’ll see loved ones I lost again in some afterlife. It sucks to no longer have the comfort those ideas provide, but you get used to living without that. Since I don’t believe in an afterlife, I try to help make the world a better place in this life.
I feel this is very important.
I recently saw a claim that conservatives don’t believe in making the world a better place due to the Christian belief that this world is flawed and temporary, and a good world only comes after death.
I’m sure conservatives are like that even in places where they aren’t (or don’t pretend to be) Christian, but something about it still rings true.
Worst part is that it’s not really a Christian belief, more of a Paulist belief. The Gospels tell followers constantly to make the world we’re in a better place – feed the hungry, clothe the naked, all that good stuff, and don’t worry about when everything ends, because you’re not getting advance warning. It was the Epistles of Paul (almost half of which weren’t even written by Paul) that kept moaning on about an imperfect material world and how it’s all going to end any minute now.
Then again, vanishingly few “conservatives” have even read the Bible, much less any of the related scholarship, so…
Yup, I doubt it’s from any “Bible study” or anything like that, but those ideas seem to really resonate among conservatives. There is this deep belief that people are inherently bad, and things can’t be made better.
With such a world view, it’s no wonder how many of them are selfish and ready to be cruel for their own advancement. If everything is garbage anyway, the best they can aspire to is some momentary satisfaction, even at others expense.
And the ones that have read it likely forgot that Paul is the only reason the new religion was open to Gentiles. (Arise, Peter. Kill and eat some prawns w/bacon.)
Very jaded response to the scales falling from Saul’s eyes was that he’d found a ‘new market’ to plumb.
A good part of the difference is just that the gospels were written a few decades later and Christians were starting to face the idea that maybe God wasn’t going to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven any day now.
It’s also worth remembering that the Gospels were written later and there’s little reason to think they’re any close to whatever the original message was than Paul was.
I mean some of them have VERY specifically tried to trigger a biblical apocalypse. Like George W. Bush, heh.
I think discussing this here might be too off topic but I wonder if you can direct me to where I can learn specifics on what you mean by that statement on W (and any others of prominence would probably pique my interest).
https://academic.oup.com/jcs/article-abstract/56/3/534/844258
Didn’t realize it was “alleged”, but this talks about the incident. He supposedly basically told France that we needed their help to trigger the apocalypse.
Thanks. Wild if true. Yet completely in character
My little Atheist philosophy is that the past is immutable. We feel sorrow and grief because there was something beautiful in our past. That will always be true, and the absence of that beauty in the present doesn’t diminish or reduce how beautiful it was in the past.
So sorrow, joy, grief, etc… are all “positive” emotions in the sense that they all help us to connect and understand beauty in our lives.
Going to take advantage of the anonymity of the comment section for a sec because it’s too fucking hard and too raw to talk about it with our friends and family, especially since our family is religious and we are not. And those 3rd and 4th panels got me hard.
Our second, another perfect little girl, was born on the 4th. She was normal length, normal weight…normal everything. She mastered the latch from the get-go and fed without issue. She had the right amount of wet and dirty diapers. She snuggled happily in her daddy’s arms in between feeds. But the night of the 5th, I fed her; she went to sleep in my arms…and never woke up. On the 9th, we let her go from the NICU. We still don’t know why it happened. There were neurological issues, sure, but they were the sort of thing where people often go their entire life not even knowing they have them. Only a small percentage end up having the worst outcome of being total care, and those are the ones with comorbid genetic issues, something her amnio came back clear for.
And it fucking sucks. It sucks knowing that because she was only 2 days old and because we didn’t want to announce until she was here in case something happened that basically no one will know she existed. It sucks that we barely have any photos of her because we’re the type to enjoy the moment rather than snap photos. It sucks that the only reason we HAVE any photos is because my mum brought our older daughter up to the hospital to visit twice and started taking some. My fucking 5-year-old daughter who has spent the past year insanely excited to be a big sister only to have that role snatched from her right before fucking Christmas.
It sucks hearing people who live in my stupid southern town and who saw me pregnant tell me that “she’s in a better place.” No. No she’s fucking not. She’s alone in a hospital morgue, waiting for us to contact a funeral home and have her cremated. She never got to come home. And the only solace we have is knowing that she went peacefully in her sleep with a full belly and snuggled up warm in my arms. Empty nursery sitting ready and unused. Presents waiting to be wrapped. Baby clothes folded in the wardrobe and hanging from the shelf. A new set of matching stockings with wooden name tags, a tag that we’ll wrap on her urn instead. But, oh, she’s in a better fucking place. Fucking spare me.
Savail, I’m so sorry. I have to think I’d have incredibly little patience for people who tried to tell me that “better place” BS after a loss so profound. I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through and everything you’ve lost.
I’m so sorry.
My dad’s funeral was full of ghost talk, too, and I had to hold my tongue the entire time.
That is a devastating loss, Savail. I am so sorry you and your family are going through this, and I wish society didn’t seem to be structured so that we slap band-aids on pain with stupid fucking platitudes. We end up leaving people in a crumbling sink hole all alone. Do literally whatever the hell you need to do about this. Fuck everyone else’s opinions on what’s ‘right’ or socially acceptable. That little girl was real and she will always be your baby, and you do what you need to do to survive this for your other little girl.
Love. Hugs. There is nothing anyone can say to make it better. Thank you for letting that out. Only us out here caring about you. And, to be totally honest, crying with you.
Thank you for sharing that. I’m sorry for you, and that I have no more or better words than those.
Fuck man…
I’m truly sorry for what you have to go through, both the loss as well as the constant reminder and “the well-intentioned unthinkingly twisting the knife”. I’ve watched people in my life go through similar loss, and it just fills you with such a directionless anger and immense sadness when someone so young is denied their shot at life.
I hope sharing your story on the internet and the words of comfort of us internet strangers offer up some sort of small, if any comfort
Words can’t even. I’m so sorry for your bottomless loss. So much love to you.
I am very sorry. That sounds like torture. All I can say is to do whatever you have to do to stay sane.
I’m so sorry for you. That is terrible 🙁
Sometimes it really sucks that we’re just fragile bags of meat. I wish your child had lived.
I’m so sorry, Savail. Having to suffer through such tragedy alone because everyone around you won’t ever understand the, like, actual premise of the tragedy makes it so much worse. A weird smugness that won’t let you feel what’s real. People saying mean things they think are nice.
If there were a Hell, that’d be it, and I wish you didn’t have to endure it.
Expression of sympathy via light virtual contact. There’s nothing I can say – nothing anyone can say – that will make you feel better. And if you punch the next “better place” person right in the fucking nose, I don’t think anyone should blame you.
*Pours tea.*
🫖🍵
Huh. Looks like I need to disable the live URLs to post.
…Some of this might still include the kinds of religious platitudes that have been so unhelpful and hurtful to you, but just in case any of the material resources and services might be of practical support…
“Here I sit, with list in hand,” as the old ballad goes:
emptyarmsbereavement.org/infant-loss-resources
nicuhelpinghands.org/resources/resources-for-bereaved-parents
marchofdimes.org/find-support/topics/miscarriage-loss-grief/dealing-grief-after-death-your-baby
*Sending caring.*
Always with the “better place” crap. Like, y’know what’d be a better place for that kid, Karen? Home. A better place for a newborn isn’t some nebulous concept of Heaven or whatever, it’s home. With her parent(s?), being loved and cared for, eating favorite dinners, learning, playing with her sister, getting into fights sometimes, making friends, picking up and discarding a new hobby every other month, growing up and becoming an entire adult one day. There’s no “better place” than that.
well said.
I’m so sorry. 😞
Hugs.
There’s so little that can be usefully said to the grieving at a funeral. I finally learned to just say how sorry I was for their loss and to stay in touch if I could help in any way.
Thank you very much for sharing. I’m saddened by your loss but appreciate hearing your story and hers.
Well done Becky. Dorothy may not have been the best choice, but at least she is there. Let it all out.
Sorry, those 2 comments were not intended to be one after the other. And maybe they won’t stay that way. They were not written consecutively.
T_T
Is it bad if I just can’t see this as anything more than “temper tantrum atheism”? Straw that broke the camel’s back or not, it still seems pretty rooted in selfishness to me. She’s not coming to this conclusion because of, say, the suffering of others or some reasoned out arguments. It’s still all about her in the end.
It just feels like another example of someone getting butthurt because a deity didn’t descend from on high to grant all their wishes like some kind of genie.
It’s not bad, because she’s not a real person. It is, perhaps, an unkind view of what she’s been through that got her here and the fact that most of her belief comes from being forced to believe through indoctrination. She’s had a few months of interacting with the world outside her cult, she’s going to go through a lot of changes.
Also, it’s super not a requirement to have reasoned arguments for not believing in a deity. Especially when you didn’t have reasoned arguments for believing in one in the first place. Her believing in a god has the same impact her disbelief has… zero. I struggle to call something selfish when no one else is benefited or harmed by your belief.
Not totally sure there’s a way to feel about religion that isn’t entirely personal biases and your personal experiences put together in a mushy morass.
Of Note: I’m discussing personal belief ONLY and not the actions people and communities may or may not take based on those beliefs. This is not an offer for people to tell me Religion Bad or Religion Good, because frankly I just don’t debate that with strangers. Feel how you feel about that.
Basically this. Despite some atheist rhetoric about it all being about rational thinking and the evidence, I don’t think it works that way for most – either for believers or non-believers. For most none of it is rational, we believe or don’t believe and we then rationalize that as best we can.
That doesn’t mean it’s all “temper tantrum” or “butthurt”, it’s just that you stop believing. Even Joyce didn’t get there through reasoned arguments or worries about the problem of suffering. She stopped feeling God or realized that she never did.
+1
About her, sure. About not having all her wishes granted…you really think that’s a fair description of all Becky’s been through, including her mom killing herself and her dad kidnapping her? Geez, man.
I’d say it, but not because of her getting what she wants. As you point out her life kinda sucked a whole lotta shit before. However, I’d say it because her religious interpretation was already pretty wishful in the first place. From acceptance of homosexuality (while more popular than ever, it’s still not a majority church view in most christian denominations) to her mom being in heaven (I’m pretty sure suicide lands you in purgatory in most denominations), she’s already made plenty edits to her religion for her wishes to be granted (which were in part because of how much stuff she’s had to deal with in life, I think). Thing is, that’s not a bad thing to do. Religion is a personal thing.
The problem is when that religion suffers a devastating blow, you feel it that much more harshly.
It’s pretty much that Joyce and Becky had religiosity as their only coping mechanisms, because they came from a background so religious, that all other coping mechanisms were disallowed. They had objectively horrible lives in an abusive, dehumanizing cult, and were offered precisely one coping strategy by that cult.
So, it ultimately isn’t that surprising that some would find their loss of faith to “feel selfish;” like, their faith was the internal coping mechanism that they were taught must supplant love and self-worth, so of course things that happen to them, or things that they feel, will be what ultimately topples their faith; “faith” was the thing they were doing, to avoid feeling their own feelings, and experiencing their authentic selves, at a foundational level. Of course that comes across as being “about them,” because faith was used as a catch-all for their entire lives to teach them which parts of themselves to minimize or suppress, for the benefit of their in-group.
It would be pretty hard for them to break faith for reasons related to anybody else; after all, “God Will Fix That If He Should” is the prescribed explanation they were given, for every bad thing in the world that has ever happened to anybody. Why would they lose faith from bad things happening to other people? They were already told, as a thought-terminating cliche, “that’s on God, you don’t worry about that.”
Becky has been told all her life that god loves her, has a plan, and is looking out for her. It’s a core part of her belief system. It’s not unreasonable, in the face of all she has experienced, for her to conclude that there is no plan and nobody is looking out for her. Previously when complex events worked in her favour, Becky was able to ascribe that to God’s influence, but now she is watching things break in Joyce’s favour even though Joyce has rejected God. Either God isn’t there, or God doesn’t care.
I don’t think she’s explicitly said that, but it makes sense to me. I do hesitate to lean too hard on it when it’s head canon, not text though.
I think it’s a really good point; I hadn’t considered Becky thinking from the perspective that Godless Joyce is having a much easier time with all the things that she struggled with, while clinging to her faith; it’s not a long walk to her understanding that the faith, and her connection to it, was the crux of why many things ended up going so poorly for her, in the first place.
When I lost what little faith I had left after my mom’s terminal cancer diagnosis it wasn’t out of a selfish desire of “wah wah I prayed for a fortune and got nothing” it’s because I prayed so hard, after both of my parents ALREADY HAD CANCER, “please don’t let it be cancer again please I will do ANYTHING” only for it to be cancer, for it to be terminal (The time between diagnosis and death was 2 months) and for my dad and I to have the hellish front row viewing of my mother’s suffering and eventual decline into death. If you view Becky’s suffering as selfish temper tantruming that’s a you problem man. It isn’t selfish to feel awful after a prolonged period of suffering. Becky’s mom died from suicide. There’s no tantruming about that.
Faith is deeply personal, of course it’s selfish. The core point of religious faith is to answer questions and provide comfort, and most people have their own personal definition of how their faith works even if they don’t realize it. Who cares, selfishness isnt inherently bad. I can’t wrap my mind around whatever expectations you have of this traumatized teenager and her own personal journey with religion
If she was a real person, and you were calling this a temper tantrum, that would be a real problem. I don’t think it’s a great read of the comic either.
To me it sounds like you have an issue with atheism, inherently.
Some interesting responses. I’ll pick this one to reply to so I can say, that, no, I don’t have a problem with atheism. I think I’m just letting how much I dislike the current storyline to cause me to view everything in the worst possible light, and Joyce hooking up with Dorothy being the final straw for Becky really didn’t help with that.
I’m sorry to those who did go through hard times for how callous what I previously said was.
Thanks for the answer Shogo, I appreciate it.
Yes.
The correct next words out of Dorothy’s mouth are “do you need a hug?”
Okay, I think Becky’s break with her religion might be permanent. It makes sense, because she has lost every single thing that previously linked her to her religion, but it’s sad, I liked her as a lesbian Christian.
I think Becky might retain her faith but that really depends on how comfortable Willis is portraying her as such given the themes of religious trauma in the comic.
In our consensus reality, I’d suggest she may return to her faith having changed and thereby needing a very different flavor of it, possibly one that isn’t particularly well supported by community in our modern era. In a comic like this, it’ll depend on the demands of authorial intent and narrative causality.
I think it’s going to change. I don’t know that she’s actually going to surrender her faith, but I would love to be proven wrong. After all, Ethan completely changed characters after the time skip. nothing is set in stone here.
SOMEONE GIVE THIS GIRL A HUG
Becky needs so many hugs from many different people who love her.
I suspect the anguish in Panel 5 Dorothy’s eyes is her realizing that Becky’s problems are much beyond her (and Joyce’s) ability to solve. It’s not really their relationship Becky is envious of, although some of her crush still lingers. It’s Joyce’s whole journey through the webcomic: getting out of the fundie enclosure, making new friends, gradually coming to terms with her true self, and finally embracing her love for Dorothy. Sure, there was hardship and heartbreak, and she even lost *some* of her family too, but nobody pointed a gun at Joyce until Becky re-entered her life. Becky has spent most of the strip denied all of that, her queer awakening haunted by one parent’s death and the other hunting her. Even her bursts of maturity are born from having to grow up much faster and in harsher conditions than Joyce ever had to deal with. It’s easy for us, with our access to the bigger picture, to say “but she has Dina, who is The Best” but I wonder if Becky has the strength left to keep that envy from curdling into resentment.
I hope this is right because that would maybe get us on track to some W Dorothy moments. L Dorothy is fun to watch but I also believe she can genuinely do good, if she can learn to accept that it’s a personal practice, and not a systemic one.
Becky’s just passed me by. God slipped away from me over the years, and I found myself growing and becoming someone I liked the less I let His approval guide me.
These days I cling to the security blanket if agnosticm. I want there to be something after this, but I’m unwilling to call it heaven or God, and I would find myself disappointed if I found out there was not. I do not dread death. I would, however, find it frustrating, unfair, to find out we get les than a century, some of us much less, in a universe so full of knowledge and wonder to revel in. To never see the beauty of a supvernova, to never see what becomes of those who remember us.
It’s my weakness. I admire Becky for finally taking that final leap from faith. I just wish this wasn’t how it happened.
I sympathise Becky. It sounds like she already knew this, deep inside. The defiant displays of belief were another layer of masking.
Becky needs therapy ASAFP. Too much really complicated grief to try and manage by herself.
She’s: 1) a suicide survivor, 2) a victim of crime in which the perp was her father who died a violent death, 3)She’s lost her home, 4) possibly lost her girlfriend who was a major support.
5) was raised in a cult, 6) was physically abused by her father, 7) was a lesbian in an unsafe home
Honestly, this girl has been through so much, I doubt we’ve even covered it all yet.
I read a quote somewhere to the effect that it’s comforting the universe doesn’t care about us. That it’s simply indifferent. That things that happen are not a judgment on us.
Because if the universe were just? If it cared about us, and… all THIS happened?
If it turned out we deserved it?
Welcome to reality, Becky. I feel sorry for her but even so, religion never worked that way in the first place. Bad things happen all the time, whether you believe in a sky fairy or not. Your “holy book” never promised that god would protect you from harm, he only said he’d be “with you”. And even that was simply invented by a bunch of powerhungry men clever enough to weasel out of any proof that this god even exists. Which he doesn’t.
Religion is in your head. Nowhere else. And reality doesn’t care about what you believe.
You must be a joy to have at parties.
No lies detected. I find such company very refreshing at parties.
Do people really need and want reinforcement of magical thinking instead? Why can’t we just accept reality?
Religions are stories, given power over people’s lives.
I mean in this case we’re not arguing against the ecclesiastical powers that be and control others. We’re not even being anti-clerical in general. This is just anti-faith when all that was left of Becky’s faith was “it’s gonna be alright, there’s some fairness in the universe and I don’t have to feel alone.”
I think that’s not very refreshing at parties. If your point in a social gathering is “the universe is uncaring and bad things can happen to you at any moment” I’m sorry but you won’t be invited to my parties. There’s no one religious in my social gatherings, or very rarely so, but we don’t just shoot down other people’s hope. We shoot down whatever rancid shit their beliefs may hold, same as we would any rancid belief, religious or not. But we don’t attack them for wanting to love their dead mum as if she were comforting them.
So… manifesting then? Do not call things as they are, even if that’s the topic discussed, but reinforce people’s belief that the universe cares about them?
That is pure magical thinking. I hope you understand that there is no malice either in that “uncaring” cosmos, or do you feel that the universe cares for the well being of every single ant, every gazelle as well as every lion? Or is it that we humans are ever so special, and the universe pays us special attention?
Religion is a very complicated part of human development that is also incredibly personal. Do you bring this energy to all kinds of faith? To Jews and Muslims? Would you walk up to, say, a woman like Asma and go “You wear clothing like that because of magical thinking. Your God isn’t real, accept reality”.
We have freedom of religion (which also includes the freedom to not have a religion) for a reason. For all this reality talk, we cannot imperatively prove whether there is a force of some kind that started everything. I don’t believe in a God but I’m not going to be an asshole and force that on other people. Newsflash! Other people are still people who have their own lives, experiences, and opinions. They should be respected, even if you don’t personally believe in it, because what value is there in yelling at a suffering teenager crying about losing her mother, “Welcome to reality, dipshit! Your mother is dead! She’s never coming back! Your God cannot be proven to exist! Your life has been a lie”. That’s not a philosophical discussion (something that should be encouraged and I think would require respecting all parties involved), it’s being a God damn asshole.
You are burning a strawman Doopyboop. You’re the one who went to the “You must be a joy to have at parties” route, immediately.
You are not addressing things I, or anybody else said, but pigeonholing us and yelling at your creation.
Yeah, you wouldn’t know anything about that behavior, huh?
You’re the one defending the original comment and going on about delusion and “the truth” in other comments, as if you somehow know the truth of the universe and anyone practicing a Thestic religion is delusional and being enabled.
Brief correction that I got you mixed up with Astarial there, I apologize. However, I am not making strawman, but you are defending and on the same side as these strawman. Nobody has said they want a philosophical discussion, this entire comment chain was set off by the comic having a character break down about why they lost their faith and the OG commenter saying “welcome to reality”. That’s not a philosophical discussion or exchange of ideas it is cruel. And you are defending that behavior under the guise of “cmon we should allow philosophical discussion”. That’s fantastic! I didn’t say philosophical discussion is bad! My comment was snark based on how this wouldn’t be the time or place to start kicking someone when they are down due to think their beliefs are dumb!
100%, especially the part abt philosophical discussion, it stifles
any potential discussion in a similar vein to how right wing christians do, im not an atheist and i believe in some sort of higher power and philosophical discussion is something i want to actively encourage!
but i mean you cant have a discussion when someone has that kinda mentality lol
Fucking yikes my man, not very often do you see so much pretentious pseudo intellectual gargling in a single place. It’s actually very funny.
Your parties sound miserable. Y’all the people that throw a pool party and then judge people for swimming lol. Telling a teenager to toughen up because they miss their dead mom, my mom’s 65 and misses her mom every single day.
Yup. I personally love parties where philosophical discussions happen, and secular humanism is the core of empathy and meaning.
We don’t need “the universe” to care about us, because we care about each other.
If this kind of talk is what you consider “philosophical” it tells veey poorly on you.
@Adept – Agreed. A lot of people here don’t seem to think that truth or the search for truth has any value compared to comforting delusions.
Fuck all the way off with this condescending garbage.
People who claim to speak the truth for something they could never possibly confirm aren’t necessarily smarter or more scientific.
And I state categorically that the existence or nonexistence of (insert deity/deities here) is essentially unprovable, as such being(s) must exist outside our natural universe. If something is capable of existing without leaving a trace anywhere you can see it, you can’t disprove it. (That’s where the “invisible pink unicorn” thing falls down, too – a unicorn would leave hoofprints, would occupy space, would occasionally make a noise of some sort. An invisible pink unicorn that exists outside space and time, however…)
You seem to be implying that you know reality, with completion and certainty. Do you? What is it?
🤣 Comments like these are the only reason I’d ever want Mike back. He’d be the perfect person to say this exact thing to Becky the next time they ran into each other! 10/10, perfect leadership here!
Ah, but there is a solitary figure she can’t perceive or understand, pulling her universe’s strings at their whim.
They post on Bluesky about Transformers a lot.
It is kind of weird in a meta sense for fictional characters to opine about the existence of God when they literally have one who makes them dance for our amusement.
When I was Christian this is how I viewed God. God was omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent but not benevolent. God was an author, and that horrifyingly meant that whatever made the more interesting story was what was going to be told and the unfortunate reality was that protagonists often have horrible things happening to them.
Not really a comforting thing and I kept that shit to myself mostly (I’d never say that to someone grieving because I’m not an actual monster given flesh. I’ve never known what to say to grieving people, but it’s 100% not that.)
No longer a Christian, but I am a writer. I do like to mess with my atheist characters a bit more than the religious ones just because sky poking them is funny and I know they’d hate it. Pretty sure all my characters would fight me on sight if they knew I was the god of their world though.
Bro fuck off oml. Take a shower, I can smell the reddit through my screen. Talking like a 14 year old that just discovered Jimmy Carr
I can’t tell who you’re addressing. The structure of these forums makes it super hard to see, at least for me.
Zee replied to Kafeeteria, but yeah the structure of the forum is a lil difficult to parse in longer threads. A simple single-pixel line from each gravatar would do wonders for readability.
I’d really like that Nymph. I often try to make it explicit, just to avoid confusing others.
For real though. Frowning Friends lookin’ asses in this thread.
IMO that is super out of line zee. There is utterly no call for such personal attacks and rudeness.
Yeah how dare you being rude to this poor innocent asshole that just wanna tell us religion is dumb and believing in it make you stupid. That is just so uncalled for, unlike their comment which was completely warranted and appropriate.
If you care about the truth and don’t coddle people’s delusions, that makes you an asshole? Not in my book.
Who said a single word about “the truth” or “coddling” “delusions”? You added those words on your own.
people say the same sort of shit about trans people and they are also wrong, you aren’t holding up some pure truth of the universe you are simply being a dickhead.
If thats how you define this then yeah I guess it does, and you’re a big one. You’re also like super duper wrong but that’s a chronic issue that nothing I say is gonna fix
Nah this is actually a super inappropriate and shitty thing to say in general, especially when so many other commenters here are saying how they relate to Becky’s experience. To be this dismissive is just, genuinely terrible and you should both do some damn introspection as to why you have so little empathy for other human beings. Downright shameful.
lmao i was going to comment “reddit moment” but youve done it already for me ty
like what kinda person do you gotta be to take such vicious joy in saying that kind of stuff, some people practice a very christian kind of atheism : /
like hey as a trans woman i really really do not like Christianity for obvious reasons and i say unkind things about it as an institution and stuff, but its not the only religion in the world! I’m glad there is a diversity in religious thought as well, it definitely helps me with my own theistic beliefs.
where was i going with this, idk, fuck that guy.
Fuck that guy should really be the only thing that should be said. This kind of attitude is not deserving of any real debate.
<3
Could you calm the fuck down?
I think it would be sensible if this whole thread calmed the fuck down (including you nadamas (sorry, can’t find a with an accent), you tell people to fuck off).
Being rude to real people is common on social media, but that doesn’t make it OK. Have your own opinion, express it even, but don’t start having a go at other people for not having the same opinion.
My headspec for Becky’s jealousy dealing a major blow to her faith is that she felt, in so.e way, that God told her to come here. Like, she had this difficult situation, she ran to someone she loved– who at the time, she felt shared her connection with God– it was a soft landing. Then there were some more really intense trials, but being around IU was still good for her.
Now, with her jealousy, she’s recognizing she wasn’t led here by God, wasn’t connected to Joyce by God; she wanted Joyce. That’s why she came here, not as part of some divine plan. And then the loss of her faith has been painful in multiple ways, like what we see here.
Aw
I very much feel with Becky here. My mom died over a decade ago and I’ll still have sudden bouts of deeply missing her and suddenly being at an earlier stage of grieving like this every now and then. There is no rhyme nor reason to what sets this off either.
Meanwhile my dad died not quite a month ago , which is still much more directly affecting me and has triggered these bouts of sudden grief for my mom quite frequently since.
I’m sorry I was mean to you Becky.
Look, I.
I think some of you might be angry at me but.
This entire arc is kind of the “consequences” strip, isn’t it?
For being bisexual. The cheating was entirely irrelevant, I’m waiting for plot relevance for the necessity of cheating. Nobody wants consequences for being bisexual or gay, that’s stupid. This would’ve happened if Joyce had dumped Joe immediately before the protest or immediately after.
You know, the thing is I actually don’t even want Joyce and Dorothy to have bad consequences for cheating. I just want them and other people to recognize it was wrong.
I want the cheating to be more than just “an oopsie on the way to the OTP”.
But unfortunately I kinda think that ship has sailed a little bit. Like, we can have whatever consequences or regrets added on now, but there was still the decision for months to have the primary focus of the comic be “Aren’t these two cute”…
I mean, sort of, which is the problem.
First off it’s what Bittersweet said, that this isn’t any sort of fallout from the fact that DoJo cheated. It would have happened whether or not DoJo were single or not, so…why have them cheat?
But more importantly, it’s the sort of consequences that mean neither Dorothy or Joyce have to grapple with doing something wrong. Especially now that we’re getting to the root of the issue, Becky’s unresolved grief about her mom, which is obviously completely unrelated to Dorothy and Joyce.
There are a few things I’d like to see that I would consider “consequences”:
-Walky going beyond just “no, we’re not cool” and telling Joyce, explicitly, to fuck off.
– Joyce needing to reckon with, or even just acknowledge, how much cheating on Joe when he was basically the perfect boyfriend for the entirety of their time together is kind of fucked up. That being able to so quickly shift gears from “happy with Joe” to “forgetting his existence” is not really a great look.
– Apologizing to Sarah for “moving in” Dorothy without her consent and *especially* for getting it on with her in the room.
I don’t want to take away from how good this particular strip is. It’s powerful and real. It’s a plot point that has been foreshadowed and is an obvious fit for how Becky’s been portrayed throughout. It’s Dave Willis at their best writing.
But yeah, it’s not at all the sort of “consequences” I’m looking for.
“Walky going beyond just “no, we’re not cool” and telling Joyce, explicitly, to fuck off.”
Sadly it kinda seems like if Walky was like “I don’t want to keep hanging out with you” most of his friends, including his sister, would not support him. If Walky stopped tolerating Joyce that would just leave Walky alone.
And that would suck for his part in the story, so he shouldn’t do that. But if he were a real person? He should absoLUTEly do that. Those people are barely his friends, and the time he spends with them could be time spent with people who actually like and support him.
I’m with you for most of the people involved with the exception of Sal.
Like, you want to get right down to it, has Joyce done anything to help Sal? Near as I can tell, it’s all been Sal helping Joyce, down to the “Joyce emulates Sal’s style”. Which isn’t any sort of flaw in their relationship, but I really don’t see why Sal should pick some fairly casual friends of hers over her own brother, a brother she’s been (slowly) improving her relationship with all year.
I’m pretty sure the extent that Sal voluntarily involves herself with Joyce is limited to walking to math together. I don’t think Joyce gets Sal in the divorce.
I mean, yeah, I don’t see why Sal should pick Joyce over Walky, but I kinda think she would regardless.
I don’t think it would be so much of a “picking sides” as just “doing my own thing”. Joyce getting Dorothy to cheat on Walky then dump him doesn’t really register on Sal’s “things to worry about” scale.
Her support for Walky is “feel better, this isn’t that bad”. If Walky decided to stop coming to the Walks I suspect Sal’s perspective would be that “He can do that. He’s his own person” but not really anything beyond that.
Sal should absolutely be supporting her brother more than “chin up”, yeah.
But I dunno, if Walky were to stop walking to math with them while Sal continued to do so…that really wouldn’t be much of a data point, you know?
Walking with Joyce to math isn’t really a sign one way or another that someone is your friend. I remember back in HS I would occasionally slow my roll on my way home so I could chat with far and away the prettiest girl in school, but I highly doubt she considered us anything more than casual acquaintances (rightfully so, I was not in her league LMAO)
Not angry, I suspect, so much as tired?
There have always been two groups of people who wanted to see consequences here.
OG Team Sickos wanted the cheating to result in any number of messy occurrences, and would definitely be pumped for “Becky loses her faith and maybe breaks up with Dina”, because that’s juicy drama.
But the other group of readers, and the one that’s been consistently the most vocal about their displeasure that we haven’t had consequences, had an attitude more like: “okay, FINE, but if they’re gonna cheat, there had better be consequences for it.”
And they’re well-within their right to keep being disappointed that so far most of what has actually happened has been a reaction to Joyce and/or Dorothy’s bisexuality, or their relationship (generically), rather than a reaction to the fact that they cheated on Joe and Walky.
(Me, I’m gonna keep pointing out that most of the cast doesn’t actually know there was any cheating involved, so I still have hope for consequences there, but I’m also not as invested in any specific consequences, and I know I’d be satisfied with much less dramatic consequences than most.)
Honestly sometimes i wonder if i am weird in that i frankly do not care if they experience “cheating consequences” i frankly am not invested in the possibility that their friends will tear into them for it or something like that. I won’t really mind if it happens, but i also don’t mind if it doesn’t. I will continue to enjoy the comic, frankly i don’t think there is anything it could do to make me stop enjoying short of having a sudden ultra far right switch.
I want to see some specific things, like Walky standing up for himself, or resolution on Joe’s polyamory question. I also hope they try it! Successfully or otherwise!
But it’s not weird to not care whether or not they experience consequences, just as I don’t think it’s weird to actively hope they don’t.
I’m just also a bit tired on behalf of the people calling for consequences that folks keep kinda smug-posting like, “Are you happy now???”, trying to treat Becky and Dina breaking up as if it was a monkey’s paw result for people who wanted consequences for cheating, especially since it’s obviously not consequences for cheating… and meanwhile the Team Sickos mentality just says, “YES! This is great!”
So the misaimed smugness bugs me.
I think i can understand people who say “Are you happy now” mostly come from a olace of annoyance and exhaustion with the near constant call for consequences. When a bunch of people has been saying/doing something you find tiresome for an extended period of time, you probably be a bit smug too if you think they get what they asked for not the how they wnated it.
I mean, but they’re still wrong, this is blatantly not what the “where are the consequences” folks were asking for. Hence misaimed smugness.
Like, it just embarrasses me on their behalf. If you’re gonna make fun of someone, at least try to make your quips connect.
I didn’t say i thought they were correct just that i understand why they say it
Nah, you aren’t the only one. And there are also ‘weird’ people out here who really don’t see ‘cheating’.
Yes. For others, instead the people that “deserves it”.
Real life, yo?
I know this maybe isn’t a popular stance here but I do really hope Becky is able to find her relgion again at some point with how much of a point of strength it was for her past.
Unlike with Joyce where it was sad but felt like breaking a shackle, the strength Becky was able to gain through her own interpretation of christianity was beautiful and so losing her religion feels like a loss all on it’s own.
I haven’t fully let go of my theory of “she doesn’t truly disbelieve, she’s just punishing herself” yet
It can happen. I went through a period in my twenties where I could no longer paper over the logical cracks in the belief structure my church had fed me, and tried being atheist for a while. Then I had trouble logically reconciling the idea of rejecting something in which, by definition, there can be no evidence one way or the other (it’s little use sorting through the natural world, looking for data regarding a supernatural being). Over the years, I’ve returned to a sort of faith, but not one that requires me to go into a specific building one day a week to sit with a whole bunch of other people whose personal hypocrisy I’m well aware of. (For starters, if God is everywhere, why would He need me to show up to one specific place once per week for roll call?) Nor are my beliefs dictated by a particular religious leader; the only one I’ve seen who isn’t obviously scamming people is the current Pope, and I just can’t vibe with Catholicism.
So yes, Becky can find faith again, although whether it would be termed “religion” is a shakier point. Her previous deconstruction of the religion she grew up with might help on this point.
I think we can differentiate between strategy and goal.
Becky feeling strengthened and supported is the goal, while Christianity was just the strategy. It was great that Christianity helped Becky in that way, but it isn’t necessarily the only thing that could help Becky.
My hope is that Becky finds what she needs to live a bright, beautiful, positive life, and I believe that is possible regardless of whether she returns to Christianity, remains Atheist, or does something else.
I agree with you.
Honestly, for my part I’m mostly curious to see where it goes from here. I had initially thought Becky retaining her faith was important, but also I think it would be unfair to Becky to not allow her to grow in a different direction, even if that direction is painful.
I’m actually beginning to return to faith, or turn to faith maybe, as I’ve never considered myself religious before this. I was top of my class on my Biomedical Science degree, I know all the omics and have a working theory of why hEDS, MCAS, GERD and POTS all seem to be related that has to do with either matrix metalloproteinases, or with caveolin-1s. Before this degree I sought to learn more about quantum dynamics, and as much as he deserves his bad reputation I still am amazed by Lawrence Krauss’s A Universe From Nothing – he shows that protons will spontaneously manifest in empty space, explaining why the universe seems to be moving away from us faster than light in some regions.
But that’s just it, I’ve stared down the rabbit hole and I’ve reached the point where everything is both too neatly assembled and too complex. I’ll never truly believe in things like Christianity, but I’m trending towards agnosticism the more about the micro and astronomical levels that I learn.
From a purely narrative perspective, I agree. I think it would be kind of boring if every single religious character in the story just gradually became atheists.
Religion isn’t “what makes us human” or anything, but rituals are certainly part of the complex tapestry of humanity. Whether it’s going to a specific church or blowing out candles on a birthday cake or getting together on Sundays to watch (American) football, human brains do seem to like making up little ceremonies to do together.
This strip is probably the single strongest strip of DoA that I’ve seen in a long time. 10/10 no notes, top tier emotional writing.
The thing to know about Becky is that she was raised in fundamental Evangelicalism, like Joyce. And that brand of Christianity pushes very hard on “all of it is true or none of it is true”.
That’s why you see people struggling with it when they step out of the bubble. Because they see, experience, and learn things that are in conflict with things they were told were “true”. And if that thing isn’t true, then that means none of it is.
And so you have these folks either double-down on it, making up justifications for why the thing they now know isn’t true is still true, or they have a long dark night of the soul and might crash even harder out of the religion.
Joyce was fortunate to have friends around her. They can help you come out of it or “hold on to the good” rather than scrap everything. Becky, I don’t know about. She has friends, but she’s spent so much time putting up a front of nothing bothering her that I don’t know that anyone thought about how she might be crumbling right now. Only Dorothy knows right now.
Yeah, that biblical literalism (but only their interpretation) is one helluva drug. It’s also super weird.
I also realised that the “it’s all real, every word!” actually ties to fascist logic as in Orwell’s 1984. You need to swallow your critical thinking, and use double-think to reconcile mutually contradictory truths.
I was raised in a loosely christian family and still had a reaction like Becky’s, though I suppose for me it was that I’d never believed any of the window dressing of christianity was true, but did believe in heaven and God, and one day had the reconciliation within me that no, it isn’t true, no one is looking out for me, especially not my deceased father. So, it can happen like this for a lot of people, but generally if something core to the religion feels irrefutably false, most people would probably abandon much of the faith part of it.
That was very true for Joyce and she even commented on it in basically those terms once, saying how if evolution was true, then there was no original sin and the whole religion fell apart.
Becky didn’t do that though. She was happy to learn about science and ditch the dogma without losing her faith. Her problem now is different.
🙁
So I have been an atheist since I was 5. But, I had a massive crisis of faith at around 15 years old, for this exact reason. It took me years to recover. My dad had died when I was 4 and even though I didn’t believe in Christianity, I had still kind of assumed heaven and hell were a thing, and that there was some kind of God who my dad was partying with and watching me and helping me through life. I talked to my dad like, all the time, in my head.
I had been baffled how Becky could go through everything she did and still retain a faith in God, but this comic brings it home to me, in a really personal way. God needs to exist for Heaven to exist for her mom to still be there in her life in some sentient way, absolutely 100% relatable.
this is a crisis of faith deconstruction i’m very familiar with. when you’ve had “god is like a perfect dad“, it’s so so hard to get to a place where you’re okay with not having that and suddenly being “alone“ in the world. What helped me was rationalizing that, if god isn’t real today, he wasn’t real back when i still believed in god, which means that the strength to handle life was *inside myself* all along. But it was hard to fully believe that. praying when you’re anxious is a coping strategy that needs replacing, not just letting go of.
Never there and avoiding all attempts to contact him?
the suspension of disbelief is STRONG. By now i also can’t fathom how i managed to believe all that, but i grew up in a bubble where that was the reality everyone around me believed.
All it takes is a reasonable run of good luck, or even a run of bad luck that can be explained in terms of things always going your way at the end, and then suddenly all your prayers FEEL like they were answered.
It’s not even a belief thing, the secular version is the gambler’s fallacy. Everyone falls victim to it for the same reason that you see faces in the patterns of knots and grains on wood paneling — that part of your brain that recognizes subtle patterns is always going, and it’s not trying for “accuracy” it’s trying for “absolutely don’t miss that tiger in the bush” so it’s going to find patterns that aren’t there.
that’s an interesting scientific point!
Just like my biological Y-chromo contributor.
HUG HER!!
oh, baby 🙁 this one hits hard
What is “True” and how do we understand “true” the underlying wrestling match. Throwing in the towel at “some people say stuff they know aint “true” so nothing people say is “true”” is a lot of ex-fundamentalists angry atheist reaction. Instead of adjusting how the think “truth” is reached or what is “truth” its “give up on wrestling with the whole question, fuck you for lying and the whole subject as well” which sadly is self harm sourced in frustration with the world.
Letting go of religion is not self-harm, and Becky seems crushed far more than she seems angry. If you don’t believe anymore then you just don’t believe anymore, and there’s no sense in trying to force yourself to.
Letting go of religion isn’t self-harm, correct. But I didn’t say letting go of religion is self-harm. I said giving up on wrestling with the question of what is “truth” and how do we understand “truth” is a form of self- harm.
I would argue this is actually a protection mechanism of most religions, if they convince you that they are co-equal with “truth” are the definers of “true” it becomes increasingly hard without realizing that that process is engaged with whether or not they are sharing truths “truth”.
It becomes much harder to build any form of personal “truth” or understanding of the “truth” from a personal perspective, if the ownership of what is “true” was defined for you by a hierarchy that you have now rejected. Thus making the journey out of religion harder and increasing the likelihood parishioners would rather not face the hardship of having to acknowledge, understand and rebuild their understanding of “Truth” which they will do consciously or unconsciously there is no way to not do it.
I myself am an atheist to reveal my bias. But wrestling with what is true and how we define truth was something I had to rebuild as I understood that I had been taught inappropriate epistemological tools but the anger those who taught me falsehoods as true as blockading me from wrestling with that journey at times.
So I am speaking from a place of going through it.
But I don’t think she has given up wrestling with the question, just her current understanding of the answer.
Ooo. So what about people who don’t have a concept of truth? Only observation?
It took a lot to get to this point but I do like finally seeing that jokey shell of Becky’s crack and seeing her actually express how she feels about her mother. I feel for her so much, not only because of losing my own mom, but because her sadness here is so simple and yet so vast. She just misses her mother, and took comfort in the idea that her mother was watching from golden gates and fluffy clouds, cheering her on as she overcame struggles.
I was genuinely so sad for her when I realized that there’s no evidence at all that she’s ever actually talked to ANYONE IN THE CAST about how her mom died, much less that Becky was the one who found her.
The closest we’ve ever gotten to an on-panel discussion of it appears to be Hank being briefly surprised Joyce doesn’t know, but also too worried and distracted to have possibly told Joyce then (plus, we don’t see Joyce rush to hug Becky with her eyes full of tears, like we definitely would have seen if he had).
Is Dorothy about to ironically be the first person she tells?
Does anyone else get the feeling that Becky hasn’t really let herself fully grieve for her mom?
Like part of it was her father telling her that her mother was a sinner. Then part of it was “well I can’t feel bad because my mom’s in heaven now, with God, which isn’t that sad at all”
100% agreed, if I remember right, Becky’s mom died in… let’s call it spring of last year, basically? So Becky had to bury her grief in order to do the homeschool version of graduating, get ready to go to college, and then BOOM everything went up for her so fast with her being outted and her dad, she definitely had no time to just sit and feel her feelings for a while.
man like. i’d really felt for a long time that her fixation on joyce and her insecurities with dina went a Lot deeper than ‘unable to get over her crush’ or whatever. what a deeply sad and traumatized girl
She thought the universe was on her side? Has she paid any attention to her life?
Yeah but she survived all of it. Despite everything she still ended in a happy place so God must have took her there. She needed to believe it in order to not break under the weight of trauma.
Yes, by the entire DoA. But not anymore.
tfw you don’t have a benevolent God looking down on you, just a horde of judgemental commenters.
Oh, baby, no D: