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also from what my christian friend told me…purgatory sucks…like all you’re sins are being purged and like…burned out of you…It sounds like hell with a happy ending
I haven’t, but from what I’ve heard from Christians all the people who never drink, smoke, curse, rock, do drugs, have sex for fun, and spread the word and are real believers go there.
So I’m guessing it must be something like a couple hundred Ned Flanders and Mother Theresa. Or if you’re the negative sort, it’s full of preachy, judgemental people.
Or it’s full of all the people who did sin but repented and always believed, but were never quite up to the standard, you know, the kind that prisons and twelve-step programs are packed with.
In either case I really hope I’m right about death being the end of existance because both Heaven and hell sound like really creative forms of torture.
Oh come on. In heaven, you can blast whatever music you want to and your neighbors won’t care, since it’s the lyrics and not the melody that determine whether its okay or not. On top of that, it’s more about living to please the Lord, rather than yourself. That’ll be the main difference between heaven and hell, aside from the eternal torment of hell Jesus described, with all the air you can barely breathe and the extreme heat…
The most common understanding of Heaven in Christian theology (take that for what its worth, in the US the word Christian is essentially semantically null) is that it is the point where nothing separates a soul from God. That is the individual ceases to exist and is absorbed into God. Sounds even worse than the other alternatives to me.
Um…when Jesus talks about heaven, he says it’s a big party with wine and food. That’s why the Pharisees called him a drunkard. He says it’s a bunch of mansions (in my father’s house are many mansions) and a place of being reunited with people you love. Check out everything in Matthew and John that he says about heaven. I’m not sure where you got what you’re talking about, but it sure ain’t from the Bible.
Also, when Paul talks about heaven, he talks about us having bodies that can do crazy things, like Jesus’ resurrected body, where we can still eat and enjoy all that normal great human stuff, but we can also phase shift through matter and stuff. That’s in 2 Corinthians (also 1 a litte) and I think you can find more in Thessalonians.
So…no. The bible never ever ever says the individual is absorbed into God. In fact, it says we become the individuals we were always meant to be–the “gods” in Psalm 2 who worship only God, like angels, but better, because we’re human, and we can eat and drink and enjoy life like humans do.
So actually…all the things you like on earth? The most perfect version of them is in heaven.
So, what about sex, you may ask? Yes, Jesus said that there is no marriage in heaven. However, in ancient Jewish belief (Psalm 45 and Song of Solomon) it’s clear that the sexual relationship is meant to reflect the relationship between God and his people (that’s why the Bible encourages sex in the beginning of Proverbs, talking about how you should enjoy your wife’s breasts, and in Genesis, celebrates ‘becoming one flesh,’ and in 1 Corinthians 7 Paul orders Christians not to abstain from sex within marriage, even going so far as to say that abstinence within marriage causes sin!!!). So whatever it is that it most wonderful about sex will be fully realized in heaven.
So yeah–THAT’s what the Bible says about heaven. Everything that you love most about earth? It’s realized in its most pure form in heaven. “For now we see but dimly, as in a mirror…” says Paul…
See, to me that sounds like you forever exist for someone else’s happiness.
This existence is not without problems. But you always have freedom, at least to choose your attitude. For plenty of people, freedom of where to go, what to do, who to associate with, to follow the rules or not sometimes, to make smart, fun or stupid choices and to change our minds whenever we feel like it without having to justify it to someone else. You are not condemned to live exactly the same way for all eternity.
Heaven can’t be like that, because then hell is other people. What makes you (and you particularly) happy will inevitably annoy or piss someone else off. An eternity of this would be enough to drive anyone bonkers.
BTW, I get that hell really sucks, but that doesn’t really make heaven good, it just makes it preferable to hell.
Actually, there’s nothing in the Bible against any of those things. Jesus even made water into alcohol for a party.
And the idea of it being for those who repented isn’t just about the people you’d find in a twelve-step program. It’d be filled with the kind of people you see at school, work, the mall, wherever.
Personally, I hope it’s like the Order of the Stick interpretation: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html
Wait, but before it got chopped out didn’t Hell itself have a happy ending? I recall there being mention of God eventually allowing all souls entry to Heaven that got chopped out of the canon by the church early on for fear that it would make people stop fearing Hell.
You might be thinking of Limbo, basically where souls who are innocent but never got baptized and then died still having Original Sin went…mainly for babies (or there’s a separate one for babies, I dunno). It’s one of the reasons we traditionally baptize at infancy.
Supposedly it was a happy place, you just don’t have a connection with God there and you kinda know you’re missing something but kinda don’t. I guess the Church just decided it was a dumb theory and that God probably wasn’t that much of a jerk.
A quick glance at Wikipedia shows it also was used for the place everyone went to before Jesus Christ showed up with his keys and said “Sorry about the wait everyone. You can all go into to Heaven now.”
Actually current church dogma is that anyone who had no
chance to be taught of christ, or was born before christ
but lived a good life goes to heaven.
People who lived a good life, but were of another religion
go to purgatory untill the armageddon where christ will
take them all to heaven.
Using a story Jesus himself told, which some consider a parable despite him not saying it was, about the rich man and Lazarus, Lazarus met Abraham before entering Heaven. Abraham had no chance in his lifetime to meet the Messiah, so there had to be some explanation given for why Abe’s there, and people will come up with lots of stuff to explain. After all, it was the reconciling of the two accounts of creating humanity that birthed the concept of Lilith.
That reminds me of the old joke with the missionary and the tribesman: A missionary was bringing Christ to a small tribe in Africa or wherever, and one day one of the tribesmen says to him, “What happens to the people who lead good lives but never learned about God?” The missionary says, “They go to Heaven, of course! It’s not their fault they’re ignorant.” The tribesman says back, “And what happens if I refuse to believe in God, now that I know about him?” The missionary replies, “You go to Hell, with all of the other willful heretics.” The tribesman thinks for a while, then
says “Why the hell did you tell me?!”
Or alternatively it’s the place where all morally good non-Christians go. Same basic concept, except they never get to go to heaven. But that’s from Dante, and he was a *terrible* fan-fic writer.
Actually, in Dante, the good non-Christians went to the upper-most circle of hell, which he identified with limbo. Purgatory was for Christians who weren’t quite good enough.
Well in my super duper humble opinion, Dante’s limbo sounded better then his purgatory. That’s because I would perfer hanging out with good divercified people instead of climbing a mountain with other climbers begging for prayers from any body walking by.
Wasn’t the spot for “noble pagans” at the top of Purgatory, not Hell? Hence Virgil could only lead him to the top of Purgatory mountain and no further, and went to hang out with Hector and Cincinnatus and such while Beatrice guided him through Heaven.
In Dante? No, the “virtuous pagans” were in Hell. They were in a part of hell that wasn’t actively horrible, it was just apart from God, and still – like all other parts of hell – without hope. That was the point that Inferno really hammered home; Hell is the place where one is beyond all hope. The best those “virtuous pagans” were ever going to get was the absence of God and no fire or turning into a tree or being chewed up by a three-headed satan face-first.
What, you didn’t like “And then it turned out that I, and also that woman I used to like to stare at, just happened to be the two best Christians ever!”?
…No, I’m referring to Purgatory. I did 15 years of Catholic school. I’m definitely referring to Purgatory. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that it was addressed in Vatican Council II in a, “Oh yeah, we kind of did just totally make that up in the Middle Ages” kind of way.
Also, for reference, Catholicism believes that as long as you follow Christ’s teachings, you can go to Heaven. You don’t have to be Catholic. You might have had a different experience with another Catholic. Trust me on this–they were wrong.
I’m not trying to be defensive. I’m hardly Catholic. I just had to learn a LOT about the Catholic religion. 15 years.
I went to Catholic school for a long ass time and was an alter boy and youth minister and all that crap (before life events lead to me becoming significantly less pious.)
But I can vouch that Senorita is pretty much spot-on from what I can remember.
Actually, as a practicing Catholic (for a given value of practicing)
who is attending a Catholic College, I can say with some amount of certainty that purgatory does exist in Catholic belief and has existed since my birth some 20 years ago (significantly after the Second Vatican Council)
But wait! The Book of Mormon, the play rather than religious text, has members of other Christian denominations in the Spooky Mormon Hell Dream with murderers! Musicals are obviously the most, and in fact only, reliable source of theological information.
According to pretty much every ex-Mormon I’ve chatted with, the South Park episode on Mormons is is really accurate. Since Matt Stone/Trey Parker also wrote the musical, I’d imagine it should be pretty accurate as well.
Out of all the Christian denominations, I actually like the Mormon versions of heaven the best, because there’s basically multiple tiers, , and one of them is for non-Mormons who were still nice people. It’s not supposed to be harmful or anything, and all the super-devout and the evil/verynotnice folks are off in their respective tiers.
Well depends on who you’re asking. According to Dante Alighieri’s writings purgatory is actually not for non believers, it is for the doubtful.
One stays on the mountain of purgatory based on how long he/she doubting the existence/righteousness of God.
There is also the first circle of Hell, Limbo, which is for the just non-believers (or those belonging in other religions). They don’t get punished like those in the levels below, but their souls wallow on forever in emptiness and desire as they don’t have the connection with God that all people truly desire in the form of ascending to heaven.
So, there is a better place Joyce, but then again good ole Dante loved him some Greek mythology so I dunno if your vision of hell matches up with his.
Is she saying that cuz she’s leaving at the first opportunity? Because she’s engaging in the hanky-pank? Because she’s now with walky and won’t have time for her? Because just dating walky brings your social class down a couple notches in Joyce’s eyes?
I agree completely. I don’t understand how someone can actually believe that following all of the instructions from a single book is practical in the real world today.
This is more or less the norm, from what I can tell. The moment someone of faith figures out I’m agnostic and even slightly open to discussion about it, they immediately set out to try to save my eternal soul by teaching me the ways of Christ. It’s annoying, but they’re doing it because they’re really really uncomfortable with the idea of me going to hell.
Once I figured that last part out, it went from being very annoying to still kind of annoying but mostly pitiful.
The difference is that my girlfriend think I’m going to hell too. Thankfully, she also appears to think that this will only happen if we speak aloud about the subject.
Agh, that’s a bummer. I’ve more or less resigned myself to the fact that I probably won’t find anyone I wish to date who isn’t convinced of my hell-bound-ness until I leave the midwest.
I always saw it as the other way around. Agnostic is being without knowledge which really describes everyone while being a atheist is about being without faith. So being an agnostic doesn’t answer any questions about one’s FAITH (or lack thereof).
To be honest, this is the idea that caused me to view the idea of the Christian god and an Omnibenevolent god as incompatible and ultimately lead to me becoming an agnostic maltheist.
Yeah… one of several reasons I don’t believe in a god. I could only reach two conclusions, he didn’t exist or he’s a dick. I found the first to be more reasonable.
Yeah, I don’t rule out god (or gods) but I’ve flat told folks that if the Bible *really* is the literal word of god, then I do not feel that god is a good person or deserves my respect.
Now, if it’s the word of god filtered through man as my mother believes…well, then that’s more understandable. Still not my faith, but I can see it. Fallible, patriarchal men feeling that was an appropriate set of laws regarding rape? Sure, I buy that. Omnipotent god setting up those laws? He’s a jerk.
(Please note that this is my personal view, and I’m not saying that anyone else should believe the same thing, or that this gives a blank check for doing whatever one wants.)
According to the Book of Michael (Warner) Hell is a long road where ye Arby’s is prophesied to be at ye village ahead yet is not and one is forever doomed to seek out ye Arby’s down this road and never find it.
And what the hell does “Market Fresh” mean? You ever get a Reuben from a market? “Marketing Fresh” is more like it. It’s a big steaming pile of fresh marketing. Mind your boots.
In the worst part of hell ever movie stars Tommy Wisseu… and every time you laugh you are punched by a mike. they’re everywhere down there. (with all the arby’s)
Dear God. I need to start attending church a lot more.
“O Hai, Don Corleone. I am honored and grateful that you have invited me to your home on the wedding day of your daughter. Anyway, how is your sex life? “
There is, in many doctrines — shown to best effect in The Divine Comedy. Many belief structures hold that Hell opens with pagans and other ‘good’ people who didn’t believe or accept Christ having some relatively nice places to hang out, though always absent the presence of God, then work their way down to the really horrific bad stuff.
The idea that it’s either Heaven or full on Lake of Fire is a relatively recent invention. As in, the last few hundred years. And it’s far from the only current interpretation. But, it’s the interpretation of the loudest current movement, so….
Wait, the political satire known as the divine comedy? Because that was what that was. That’s why all of Dante’s political rivals just happened to burn in hell for all of eternity.
The book was a political satire, but he put all his favorite authors and philosophers who just happened to not be Christians in the happy part of Hell.
Of course, Divine Comedy was Catholic. So’s the concept of Limbo, generally. The sort of midwest Christian Joyce seems to be generally aren’t too tight with the Catholic doctrine.
Oh Joyce, if you had an actual intimate knowledge of the bible, it would tell you that the concept of Hell is very poorly defined and practically non-existent in the actual text.
Pfft. As a Heathen myself, I expect to either end up with Freya or in Niflhelm. I really don’t see why I, as a non-Christian, ought to end up in their hell, any more than I expect to also end up in the Jewish, Muslim, or any other religion’s place-where-the-bad-people-go. Why should I? It’s the wrong pantheon. I strongly doubt Niflhelm is full of Christians.
But as Christianity these days seems to figure that theirs is the only god (despite the first commandment being “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” meaning that there ARE in fact other gods out there, according to that one, and even that one can also follow them too, so long as JHVH is the main one), it seems to be perfectly reasonable to them that their own version of hell is full of people from other pantheons. And that their Heaven has a bunch of people in it who never even heard of their god or religion before. Which just seems odd to me, and probably confusing at best to anyone who’d never heard of Jesus before who DID end up there. *Grin*
Eh. In fairness, you don’t choose to believe that somebody is or isn’t going to hell. If you think they are, it’s because you just think that’s how the world works, and there’s nothing you can do about it except try to get them interested in the path to salvation. It’s to her credit that she cares about the fact that Dorothy is hellbound according to scripture, and her desire -not- to see bad things happen to her friend is actually an example of her caring side.
The problem just relates to her beliefs being, y’know…Not supported by any kind of evidence.
No, my point is, if you -believe- in scripture, zealotry is -reasonable-. In fact, if you really believe in scripture, zealotry is a moral imperative, because the only way to save people from an eternity of torment is by converting them.
The hangup is the fact that there’s -no good reason- to believe in the first place. But once the belief is there (and like I said, you don’t choose to believe), a good, moral person has no choice but to be overbearing.
Hell, even the churchI was brought up in preaches about the importance of ‘spreading the word’ and setting a good example, cos in their mind, if you are not al least trying to save the ‘lost’, then you must want those people to end up in the Lake of Fire.
Yeah, but they only got there because they died before Jesus existed and therefore can’t be held accountable for not worshiping him. Any non-believers born after Christ get the usual treatment.
That’s reading into it a bit. The ones he mentioned were pre-Christian, sure, but how many non-Christians would Dante know from his contemporaries? (In a context other than “we/they are invading their/our land,” anyway.)
Limbo is usually presented as the destination for virtuous unbelievers, unbaptized babies, and other people who were good but not baptized Christian.
Not really. Saladin was there, too, and he was hardly born before Jesus. As I understand he wasn’t burning in hell because he was a very honorable “pagan” – more honorable than most of the christians in his day if I remember correctly.
If Hell is anything like it is in JtHM I imagine all the decent people who got their by accident immigrated out of the cities long ago and live amongst each other, all hoping for the far better company awaiting them in heaven. (They’re going to be disappointed when/if they find out Heaven is contently sitting in chairs. But not for long because then they’ll be content.)
My biggest reason for doubting the existence of Hell is it’s never used as a threat for evil doers in the earliest chapters of the Bible. God threatens to smite people and does, but there is no warning that they will then be cast into a Lake of Fire which I would think would be an added incentive to be good. The concept of Hell isn’t included until later chapters after the newly released Israelites were influenced by Persian Zoroastrian beliefs in a dichotomous good vs. evil/heaven and hell world. In other words it was added later and not necessarily by divine authorship.
Well I think it’s because he didn’t want there to be an insentive to be good. He hoped man would be good. which brings up the question…knowing that man is flawed and would do wrong…why did he trust them to not do wrong and then get mad when they did do wrong?
That’s the problem with theological retcons like God’s all-knowingness (which doesn’t show up till long after the Abraham story). They raise big looming questions about the origin stories.
All-knowning. All-powerful. Creating life is complicated surgical work though. Just once your finger slips and now you’ve got some now you’ve got some jackass raising a rebellion effecting all the other creations like dominoes and you’re too lazy to correct your mistake now that it’s gotten this far out of hand so you throw them all on their own planet far away where they can do no harm and drop by once in a blue moon to play sims with some tribesmen.
An all-knowing God doesn’t flood the earth because the first batch didn’t work out. The concept that God should be all-knowing is Jewish and carries over to Christianity, but it arrives fairly late in Jewish theology so it isn’t expressed in most of the early stories.
Sort of like how in early old testament texts there were references to other gods. Elohim wasn’t the only god, he was the highest of all gods. Then as the culture evolved they phased those ideas out and the religion became truly monotheistic. That’s when they picked up allot of the ideas such as all-knowing and all-powerful god. These are pretty revolutionary ideas as far as religion is concerned so it’s understandable that the culture had to grow into them.
Surely it is plain that my post was meant in jest. The creation myth doesn’t start with “Whoops my finger slipped” and then tossing the failed batch. I can’t think of any religious denomination where that isn’t full-blown blasphemy.
I’m also not seriously claiming that God, the omnipresent God who allegedly loves us as his children, has no presence on the earth beyond occasionally popping in to fuck with some group of tribesmen for a while before killing them all in frustration because they won’t do what he says fast enough and won’t feed themselves if he doesn’t point out where the mana is and remind them that pork’ll kill them every single day.
Dude, really it’s because of Jesus that God calmed down. Having a child really makes one reconsider life’s decisions. Clearly, he was trying to be less of a heavy handed jerk when his kid started wandering around.
Or ya know, that voice in the burning bush was, um, someone other than the god of Abraham? “I am that I am” seems to be a rather evasive answer when asked about your identity.
Really, ’cause, why would you even need a line like “Thou shalt have none other gods before me.” if he was the one and only? He says he is a jealous god and never actually says there are no other gods, just that he should come first.
My biggest reason for doubting hell is because the main source thereof is the book of revelations, a book which was most likely an allegory against Roman rule and not even intended to be taken as the word of God by the author. -.-
Not even intended to be taken as the word of God? Lets read the first three verses of the book:
“The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”
Now just for the sake of argument let’s read the first little blip from The Lightning Thief.
“Look, I didn’t want to be a half-blood.
If you’re reading this because you think you might be one, my advice is: close this book right now. Believe whatever lie your mom or dad told you about your birth, and try to lead a normal life.
Being a half-blood is dangerous. It’s scary. Most of the time, it gets you killed in painful, nasty ways.
If you’re a normal kid, reading this because you think it’s fiction, great. Read on. I envy you for being able to believe that none of this ever happened.
But if you recognize yourself in these pages—if you feel something stirring inside—stop reading immediately. You might be one of us. And once you know that, it’s only a matter of time before they sense it too, and they’ll come for you.”
This does not tell me that this book was intended to be taken as the word of God, since the work is plainly symbolic. It does tell me that the author wanted to make apparent that he is well-versed in the newly developing Christian works and that he is coming form a Christian Jewish background. Of that I have no debate to begin with.
Most likely? That is pretty much the only way it was read for hundreds and hundreds of years. Making it a book of prophecy took some mighty mental gymnastics (also, Revelations is written from a clearly anti-Pauline anti-convert the gentiles viewpoint).
Where as in Matthew Jesus going: “But I say to you, that many will come from The East and from The West and will recline with Abraham and Isaaq and Jaqob in the Kingdom of Heaven.” But the children of the Kingdom will be cast out to outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” .
According to Dante and other people, there is a nice place in Hell where nice non christians go. It’s not the V.I.P. section but the company is extremely good.
In Dante’s Inferno there’s a Earth-like circle of Hell for ‘virtuous pagans’ and just chill with Euclid and Socrates in villas.
Pagans’ only punishment was living without faith, which seems pretty cool by Medieval Religion standards. Then again, agnostics were stung by bees and atheists were burned upside down so there’s that.
Nothing sweet about the last panel, Joyce is a religious nut who believes that if you don’t believe her way, take the highway. I don’t dislike Joyce and most of the time admire her for trying to ‘overcome’ her narrow minded upbringing. She has grown a lot. But sometimes….Right now her problem is just jealousy. Learn to share Joyce.
I don’t normally hold Joyce’s religious shenanigans against her, but she’s clearly just being jealous and bongoy and rationalizing it with the bible. Cut that shot out, Joyce.
Uh… could it be that Joyce is thinking about the fact that it is a mixed-race relationship? The whole “Curse of Ham” thing has been interpreted as anti-miscegenation but I have heard some say it is more about prohibiting marriages across different faiths.
Not that your enthusiasm for spreading your doctrinal views isn’t great and all, but what’s your goal here? I mean, you aren’t going to convince Joyce obviously, and you aren’t going to convince the author, and you aren’t going to convince fellow posters without a heck of a better argument than just a random assertion that contradicts the main character and nothing else.
I mean, I could understand if you said “X religion believes what Joyce wants to believe, go study it if you want to believe it too!” But instead you just leave us all hanging with a claim that is certainly not mainstream in Christianity at all. What’s the point?
Is this Mormonism speaking? The thing that always comes to mind when I hear that little nugget is that it was said back in the early 1800s. So my mind translates it as “We’ll have double-ply toilet paper, as we all rot in our grimy, solitary cells forever.”
Are you dissing the glory that is double-ply, man? Beware: double-ply is my god, and I serve it diligently (and it serves me).
But okay, there will probably be a lot less infant mortality in Hellheaven too. And less disease. And people probably won’t have to work for a living, as they sit in their cells. And fewer fears about spirits and demons pestering you. Little details like that.
But seriously, the toilet paper. (Cue heavenly choir.)
No, see, the Christian get castles, Muslims get super deluxe mansions with infinite rooms and pools. The rest of us get McMansions and only one pool. Also cable, but no premiums., but pay-per-view/on-deman stuff is all free, so you can still watch everything, it’s just less convenient.
Actually if we continued my presumption that we’re talking about Mormonism here, only the mormons get mansions, and presumably everybody else gets worse. Nobody else is allowed to have families or wives or children, nor are they allowed to be creative. They also don’t have the ability to travel freely.
But there’s still reason to hold out hope for that double-ply.
Who’s us guys? I guarantee you that I wasn’t one of the people inventing christian marriage vows. I’m a few years too young for that. For myself, if I do ever get married, it will be on my own authority, and I will thereafter remain married forever after, even after I die and even if all existence should end. (Similarly to how Socrates is still male despite being long since dust.) And any people, countries, deities or demons who might stoop to saying otherwise can blow my disintegrated corpse.
I do concede that it’s a bit odd that christians never got around to explicitly claiming eternal marriage once they got around to inventing/plagiarizing an individualized afterlife. But mormonism still holds the distinction of having specifically declared that their god will explicitly NOT recognize earthly marriage, and that It will actively force couples apart. A vicious little bit of marketing, that. (Of course the joke on modern mormons is that originally mormon celestial marriage explicitly meant *polygamous* marriage – a little detail that one supposes the modern mormons will be caught by surprise by…)
Christians likely don’t claim eternal marriage because you’re supposed to care more about your proximity to God than any mortal relationship in the afterlife. Also, widowers remarrying is totally okay in all mainstream Christian sects, which would make eternal marriage polygamous in many cases, which is NOT okay in all mainstream Christian sects.
So fun how her “intimate knowledge of the Bible” gives her cause to believe something with no doubt whatsoever that people with equally intimate knowledge have debated for millenia. I don’t much mind that she’s both ignorant nor that she believes she isn’t ignorant – character development needs to have room to happen somewhere. What I do mind is the implication that the author actually believes that that’s a doctrinal point beyond debate (this isn’t the first time he’s brought it up), that you’d have to reject the Bible before you could believe that it could merely be generalized for simplicity. Which is just stupid: anyone with an ounce of common sense could tell you that life after death implies decisions after death, which implies that people’s “eternal rewards” have every bit as much potential to vary as the quality of people’s lives do now.
I’m pretty sure that “a nicer area in hell for not-so-terrible people” refers to limbo, which is often a centerpiece of exactly these debates. I didn’t get the impression that Willis thought it was cast-iron doctrine at all, in fact, it seems to me that he’s making light of exactly that belief.
I dunno what’s more troubling: That CP thinks that whatever a character says more than once is something I obviously believe in myself, or that I am subsequently “stupid” and “without an ounce of common sense.” …regarding ideas about the afterlife.
Well, I put it to you, sir, that your ideas about unicorns are proposterous, and that only an idiot would think them!
Well, of course! Everyone knows that any time any character in a story has a belief or opinion, the author shares those beliefs or opinions. This is especially true when there are many characters in the work who hold incompatible positions and violently disagree with each other. Cone on, this is common sense.
Especially since the character espousing the viewpoint is an amusingly exaggerated parody of a certain model of Christianity.
(I like to pretend that I live in a world where Chick Tracts are only used as ironic gags and jokes, rather than something people actually take seriously. That world is fun.)
Yup, because the only way to survive in a college you were nearly raped in a few days ago (in-verse) due to being somewhat naive as a result of being exclusively homeschooled, is to foreswear your few good friends that you’ve made.
Though I doubt that Ryan the Rapist will return, deciding that you have to go it alone doesn’t sound that healthy either.
Whoa victim blaming. She was nearly raped because a dude TRIED TO RAPE HER. And that’s the only reason. Also he drugged her, and drugs affect the naive and worldly alike. You could argue that a more worldly person would have avoided the drink, except that drinking out of open cups like the one he gave her is the entire point of such parties, so it would be a bad argument if you tried it.
Preeeety sure that’s not how it works, at least with modern Christian interpretation. Maybe to the old school bible-thumpers, but that’s not the real view of the modern church anymore.
Pagans and atheists don’t go hell if they follow the basic tenants of Church. And the most basic tenants of the Church are, do not be an amoral asshole. Traditional faith in god is important, but if they never are really acquainted with God cause Christianity is not everywhere, if they lived their life a good person, they still go to heaven. God doesn’t punish ignorance, at least not unintentional ignorance.
Yeah it’s kind of like in South Park where everyone ends up in Hell except Mormons… but the upshot is there are a lot of famous people there and Satan hosts some lovely luaus.
I may be a Christian, but that’s one of the most basic problems I have with the whole thing. “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
It’s… fairly clear, that unless you follow Jesus, you aren’t getting in. Now either that passage and others similar are correct, and someone like Ghandi is in hell, or it’s not, and… well then at least part of the Bible is wrong.
That said, I once had this bongoing dream where the End of Days was really just a disguised Battle of the Bands, where God and the Heavenly Chorus vs Satan’s Demon Metal Band rocked out for the ages, with organs vs electric guitars. It was epic. And probably means I listen to too much Tenacious D. *laugh*
So there is this passage in Matthew where Jesus says to a Roman, and therefore likely a pagan, that he will go to heaven. Maybe it’s not so much about being Christian as it is about believing in the teachings of Christ, being as Christ like as we can be.
Actually, that passage clearly states to me that at some point Jesus is going to have his stigmata opened up a bit wider and stand blocking the pearly gates: if you want in, you’re going to have to crawl through the hole. (Only the penitent man will pass – others will bang their heads on his knuckles.)
Of course, that’s only if you take the bible literally. If you decide to interpret it any old wishy-washy way, then obviously you can come to any conclusion you like.
Literalism, man! You gotta go through Jesus, like tearing a hole in him and crawling through, or maybe by having him eat you and coming out through and out of his digestive tract. (He stated he wanted us to eat his flesh and drink his blood – perhaps that’s to warm us up to the idea of him doing it back.)
Literalism is fun! Too many christians are inconsistent about it though.
Loophole: the only way to the FATHER is through him. This statement actually doesn’t disqualify all the other “good ends” of all the other religions. It simply says that to get the Christian best ending, you need 5000 in war assets… er I mean do what Jesus says. If you don’t do that, you can possibly get the alternate Hindu or Buddist or what have you best ending.
What did that mean? Is she grumpy cause she thinks that she lost Dorothy, because she has a boy now? That she’s not so great due to dubious taste in men? That she’s jealous that Dorothy got herself some romance without even really trying while she’s actively looking and all she got so far was Joe? That she can’t even look at Dorothy anymore without thinking about Walky’s Buns of Caramel?
Joyce obviously doesn’t know that the reason many students find someone from uni/college to get married to is that they weren’t seeking to get married when they started to go to uni/college.
If you actively seek someone to get married to in uni/college, it kinda sounds desperate and that puts off a lot of potential partners, not to mention killing the mood.
Hmmm…
You know, a lot of that hell-fire and damnation, and all of that was only created by Christian preachers who wanted to scare their congreagations into doing what is “right”. The Bible actually doesn’t mention it much except in Revelations, when it talks about the devil being cast into a lake of fire and brimstone.
Mike’s plan was not to upset Walky, it was to unite Dorothy and Walky in order to make Joyce fell alone, so she will try to go after Ethan (and get even more hurt)…. and perhaps make Ethan fell bad about himself in the way.
When he said “you are not my target”, he was clearly not talking about Walky.
And Thus joyce falls into one of the classic blunders Christians tend to fall into alot being so afraid of being influenced that they forget that they are called to do the influencing themselves.
She’s not really afraid of being influenced. She’s jealous that Walky’s taking her friend away from her and she’s using excuses like “She’s probably a bad influence anyway” to try and make herself feel better.
It’s not going to work, though, because she’s -totally- gay for Dorothy.
That reminds me. Where is that nexus of depravity that sends the very fabric of reality surrounding him into shudders of revulsion? Where….is Ninja Rick? And is Faz there too?
Uh… man, Joyce (and folks like her) really makes me sick. I have now actually been disgusted by a web comic.
If there is one thing that christians, or any religious group, tend to forget, it’s that their holy texts were written by people, no God. Considering that there are numerous versions of the bible as well, each with a different canon, plus the fact that our idea of hell and the devil is a construct of the church as well as many fiction writers (dante, milton, etc.) and not something that was in the original version of the bible. “Hell” is actually a word that was used in place of a few different terms, including Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades which all have very different meanings in the languages in which they originate from (Hebrew and Greek).
If one is to think about it, if the Bible was actually the “word of god” there should not be different versions of it at all. If we are supposed to obey everything that God says, and the Bible is the word of God, by editing it and deciding on which parts are canon, and which are not (such as the apocrypha) are we not then disobeying the word of God by deciding which parts of the Bible we are going to pay attention to? Plus the fact that so much of the English versions Bible is skewed from the original meanings simply because it was lost in translation, such as the word Hell (this occurs numerous times throughout the Bible – I will not list them here as I don’t have all day, but look it up.) and one is left with a document that has been edited so many times that it bares little resemblance to the original texts.
We have a modern example of how people will believe anything they are told if they simply want to believe it: Scientology. This religion was started by a man who wrote SCIENCE FICTION, and the principles of Scientology are similar to many sci-fi ideas. But, even though this was started by, again, a man who wrote fiction, many people around the world have taken this as fact. Now, lets look at all of the fantastic stories in the Bible: the whole world was flooded at one point, and a man was able to put two of every species on the whole planet onto an Ark… There is another man who can walk on water, create food, and come back from the dead. Sounds a little science fictionesgue to me… But scientologists are generally seen by christians as pretty crazy, even though they believe some of the craziest crap ever conceived.
Long story short, there is nothing wrong with a belief in some higher power. We don’t know what started the universe. We don’t. Any organized religion assumes that we do, so believing all the crazy stuff like heaven and hell is just that: crazy. WE MADE IT UP. GOD DID NOT. The sooner we all understand this, the happier we will all be, and people will stop being horrible to each other in the name of God. The best people i have ever met, the ones that go out of their way to help others, have all been atheists. Because, as an atheist, one only has now to be good. The christian people in my life have only alienated everyone they know by judging them, going as far to disown people from their own families simply because they didn’t believe… And these people expect to go to Heaven simply because they believe in God. As long as they are sorry for the shitty things they do in life, they will be saved, but the atheist who has done only good in their life will be TORMENTED for ETERNITY because they didn’t believe in the meesed up texts written by people who want us to believe in an invisible man running the show who never contacts us, or at least has not in two millenniums, and then who only contacted those who wrote the stories… How does this not strike everyone as insane?
…As a character, Joyce really needs to open her eyes. Before this comic, I at least felt that her character was a good person. Now, she’s the most despicable character in this whole comic.
How about giving her more than a week before you start demanding she completely change her worldview. That stuff takes time. The fact that she even tries to incorporate people who don’t follow her beliefs into her life puts her leagues above most of those folks you say are like her. She could’ve just as easily been like Mary, who goes around preaching moral and religious superiority while acting like a complete tool to everyone. And at the end of the day, Joyce was an extremely sheltered child. Homeschooled her whole life, not allowed to go anywhere further than her own house unsupervised until she was sixteen. Her religion seems to be all she really had growing up. It’s just as much her crutch as it is her belief.
This is seems to be a peeve for you and you probably have met people like that and for that I’m sorry. But those people are those people and Joyce is Joyce. They’ll probably never change, but Joyce seems to be on the way. So just give her a chance and some time. That’s the thing about stories. Nobody starts out perfect, but they get better by the end. It’s the journey to that better person that makes it interesting.
There’s so much here I don’t agree with, but it’s that last part that makes me incredibly uncomfortable. This idea she has (an idea, not an action) is what makes her horrible? After all the decent things she does, how she’s nice to people, and genuinely wants people to be happy, she has an idea and that makes her despicable? That is so closed-mindedly ignorant I’m having trouble finding a start point.
I can’t stand closed minded people. I can’t. If your position includes the phrase “and if you don’t agree with me you’re a moron” then you’ve lost any ground you were standing on. Your position seems to be that Joyce’s belief system makes any of her positive, redeeming qualities null and void. You also take the position that if she had her belief ripped from her, she would be happier in the long run. That’s terrifying to me.
I’m going to take a moment to apologize to you, on behalf of the Christians that hurt you however they did. I want you to know that the loud mouth, hate filled, intolerant invective you have been exposed to does not represent me or the bulk of people who share my faith. Like any group, Christians have crazies. But also like any group, there are many decent, kind, hard working people in our number. We’re no-more all Fred Phelps than all Muslims are Osama Bin Laden. But we do have those people, and we’ve done a poor job of reigning them in so far.
All of that said, you are welcome to your opinion. My opinion is that extremists are scary, regardless of the position they’re extreme on.
Okay, the types of Christians you’re complaining about don’t “forget” that their scriptures are just written by men. They deny it. They axiomatically state that their scriptures are the words of god, dictated with perfect accuracy, or close enough. They flatly reject the notion that it was written as fiction the same way you might reject the claim that your science book is fiction.
Let’s reiterate – they take this axiomatically. Which means that when something else appears to contradict it, that other thing must be wrong. Other translations? Wrong, if accepting them would mean that the texts are untrue. Or perhaps they reject your assertion that multiple versions means untruth. Or whatever. This shouldn’t be news to you – people have been rejecting all kinds of facts for generations in deference to their beliefs: evolution, the age of the planet, whatever. Some reject more or less than others, but it all comes down to what they think needs to be rejected to keep their world consistent with the beliefs that they axiomatically accept.
Is this stupid? Maybe, but if so it’s a really common stupidity. I do concede that it’s annoying as hell, though.
Yes, the bible was written by people. It was meant as a sort of history of God’s creation & involvement with it. It’s been revised from the original languages so that people that cannot read those languages could read it, but again, it’s been revised by people, therefore it is necessary to follow your heart, beliefs and follow your personal walk with God as you discover the TRUTH aka the real word of God, hidden in ALL religions. Regardless of what religion you start with, so long as you seek the truth continuously, you will find it. However, you must be the one to descern the TRUTH from falsehood.
I believe that Heaven & Hell are not matters of real estate but instead a state of being. The closer one is to God, the more one can be said to be in Heaven & then there’s the concomitant analogous opposite. I also believe that one’s relationship with God is requisite upon following any particular religious belief: it’s what’s in the heart that counts.
Not that I expect anybody to notice this way down here anyhoo.
Out of curiousity, would those of us who don’t like God be forced to be unhappy by not being in his presence? Or would we able to party down after tossing that pesky God out? (He’s such a buzzkill, man.)
One theory is that God emits some kind of special radiation that all of God’s creatures needs to feel OK, by cutting you from ‘His presence’ you end up feeling terrible like a junkie going through withdrawal.
That is why Jesus felt abandoned on the cross as he was aborbing all of the sins, cos sins are like spiritual lead, blocking all the Godly radiation goodness.
Yellow sun, not red sun! Red sunlight is practically kryptonite itself – exposure seems to immediately corrupt and drain any stored yellow energy that you might be housing.
It’s because Joyce knows that her all-consuming jealousy for the caramel will force her into one of her red-eyed rages, and Dorothy would have to die. So she can’t let herself see them together.
What’s Joyce all bent out of shape about? Cause on my first reading it just sounds like she’s gotten her panties in a winch that one of her friends had the audacity to get a boyfriend without her permission.
I am fairly certain that there are no graphic descriptions of hell in the bible at all, everything people “know” about it was made up by the church during the dark ages as a way to discourage the miserable people from committing suicide.
“Behind the door and doorpost you put your symbols. Indeed, you depart from me and go up and invite them into bed with you. You purchase favors from them, you love their bed, and gaze longingly on their genitals.” (Isaiah 57:8)
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Well, there’s Purgatory.
That might be a little too Catholic for Joyce.
also from what my christian friend told me…purgatory sucks…like all you’re sins are being purged and like…burned out of you…It sounds like hell with a happy ending
I’ll take that over Hell any day. Have you seen Heaven? It is THE SHIT.
I haven’t, but from what I’ve heard from Christians all the people who never drink, smoke, curse, rock, do drugs, have sex for fun, and spread the word and are real believers go there.
So I’m guessing it must be something like a couple hundred Ned Flanders and Mother Theresa. Or if you’re the negative sort, it’s full of preachy, judgemental people.
Or it’s full of all the people who did sin but repented and always believed, but were never quite up to the standard, you know, the kind that prisons and twelve-step programs are packed with.
In either case I really hope I’m right about death being the end of existance because both Heaven and hell sound like really creative forms of torture.
Oh come on. In heaven, you can blast whatever music you want to and your neighbors won’t care, since it’s the lyrics and not the melody that determine whether its okay or not. On top of that, it’s more about living to please the Lord, rather than yourself. That’ll be the main difference between heaven and hell, aside from the eternal torment of hell Jesus described, with all the air you can barely breathe and the extreme heat…
The most common understanding of Heaven in Christian theology (take that for what its worth, in the US the word Christian is essentially semantically null) is that it is the point where nothing separates a soul from God. That is the individual ceases to exist and is absorbed into God. Sounds even worse than the other alternatives to me.
That sounds vaguely like Instrumentality.
Also, it sounds pretty Buddhist.
Um…when Jesus talks about heaven, he says it’s a big party with wine and food. That’s why the Pharisees called him a drunkard. He says it’s a bunch of mansions (in my father’s house are many mansions) and a place of being reunited with people you love. Check out everything in Matthew and John that he says about heaven. I’m not sure where you got what you’re talking about, but it sure ain’t from the Bible.
Also, when Paul talks about heaven, he talks about us having bodies that can do crazy things, like Jesus’ resurrected body, where we can still eat and enjoy all that normal great human stuff, but we can also phase shift through matter and stuff. That’s in 2 Corinthians (also 1 a litte) and I think you can find more in Thessalonians.
So…no. The bible never ever ever says the individual is absorbed into God. In fact, it says we become the individuals we were always meant to be–the “gods” in Psalm 2 who worship only God, like angels, but better, because we’re human, and we can eat and drink and enjoy life like humans do.
So actually…all the things you like on earth? The most perfect version of them is in heaven.
So, what about sex, you may ask? Yes, Jesus said that there is no marriage in heaven. However, in ancient Jewish belief (Psalm 45 and Song of Solomon) it’s clear that the sexual relationship is meant to reflect the relationship between God and his people (that’s why the Bible encourages sex in the beginning of Proverbs, talking about how you should enjoy your wife’s breasts, and in Genesis, celebrates ‘becoming one flesh,’ and in 1 Corinthians 7 Paul orders Christians not to abstain from sex within marriage, even going so far as to say that abstinence within marriage causes sin!!!). So whatever it is that it most wonderful about sex will be fully realized in heaven.
So yeah–THAT’s what the Bible says about heaven. Everything that you love most about earth? It’s realized in its most pure form in heaven. “For now we see but dimly, as in a mirror…” says Paul…
See, to me that sounds like you forever exist for someone else’s happiness.
This existence is not without problems. But you always have freedom, at least to choose your attitude. For plenty of people, freedom of where to go, what to do, who to associate with, to follow the rules or not sometimes, to make smart, fun or stupid choices and to change our minds whenever we feel like it without having to justify it to someone else. You are not condemned to live exactly the same way for all eternity.
Heaven can’t be like that, because then hell is other people. What makes you (and you particularly) happy will inevitably annoy or piss someone else off. An eternity of this would be enough to drive anyone bonkers.
BTW, I get that hell really sucks, but that doesn’t really make heaven good, it just makes it preferable to hell.
Actually, there’s nothing in the Bible against any of those things. Jesus even made water into alcohol for a party.
And the idea of it being for those who repented isn’t just about the people you’d find in a twelve-step program. It’d be filled with the kind of people you see at school, work, the mall, wherever.
Personally, I hope it’s like the Order of the Stick interpretation:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html
Damn you! Now I have another archive binge to go through! At this rate it’ll take weeks for me to finish!
Wait, but before it got chopped out didn’t Hell itself have a happy ending? I recall there being mention of God eventually allowing all souls entry to Heaven that got chopped out of the canon by the church early on for fear that it would make people stop fearing Hell.
This is late and I probably will never get back to this, which
book was it?
…technically Catholics don’t believe in Purgatory. Or rather aren’t supposed to anymore.
You might be thinking of Limbo, basically where souls who are innocent but never got baptized and then died still having Original Sin went…mainly for babies (or there’s a separate one for babies, I dunno). It’s one of the reasons we traditionally baptize at infancy.
Supposedly it was a happy place, you just don’t have a connection with God there and you kinda know you’re missing something but kinda don’t. I guess the Church just decided it was a dumb theory and that God probably wasn’t that much of a jerk.
A quick glance at Wikipedia shows it also was used for the place everyone went to before Jesus Christ showed up with his keys and said “Sorry about the wait everyone. You can all go into to Heaven now.”
I like that ‘waiting for the keys’ analogy. I do that at church a lot. It happens to techies who grow up but still like playing with the sound board.
The church decided that god people wasn’t that much of a jerk so… everyone just goes to hell instead?
Actually current church dogma is that anyone who had no
chance to be taught of christ, or was born before christ
but lived a good life goes to heaven.
People who lived a good life, but were of another religion
go to purgatory untill the armageddon where christ will
take them all to heaven.
Using a story Jesus himself told, which some consider a parable despite him not saying it was, about the rich man and Lazarus, Lazarus met Abraham before entering Heaven. Abraham had no chance in his lifetime to meet the Messiah, so there had to be some explanation given for why Abe’s there, and people will come up with lots of stuff to explain. After all, it was the reconciling of the two accounts of creating humanity that birthed the concept of Lilith.
That reminds me of the old joke with the missionary and the tribesman: A missionary was bringing Christ to a small tribe in Africa or wherever, and one day one of the tribesmen says to him, “What happens to the people who lead good lives but never learned about God?” The missionary says, “They go to Heaven, of course! It’s not their fault they’re ignorant.” The tribesman says back, “And what happens if I refuse to believe in God, now that I know about him?” The missionary replies, “You go to Hell, with all of the other willful heretics.” The tribesman thinks for a while, then
says “Why the hell did you tell me?!”
Or alternatively it’s the place where all morally good non-Christians go. Same basic concept, except they never get to go to heaven. But that’s from Dante, and he was a *terrible* fan-fic writer.
Actually, in Dante, the good non-Christians went to the upper-most circle of hell, which he identified with limbo. Purgatory was for Christians who weren’t quite good enough.
Well in my super duper humble opinion, Dante’s limbo sounded better then his purgatory. That’s because I would perfer hanging out with good divercified people instead of climbing a mountain with other climbers begging for prayers from any body walking by.
Wasn’t the spot for “noble pagans” at the top of Purgatory, not Hell? Hence Virgil could only lead him to the top of Purgatory mountain and no further, and went to hang out with Hector and Cincinnatus and such while Beatrice guided him through Heaven.
In Dante? No, the “virtuous pagans” were in Hell. They were in a part of hell that wasn’t actively horrible, it was just apart from God, and still – like all other parts of hell – without hope. That was the point that Inferno really hammered home; Hell is the place where one is beyond all hope. The best those “virtuous pagans” were ever going to get was the absence of God and no fire or turning into a tree or being chewed up by a three-headed satan face-first.
What, you didn’t like “And then it turned out that I, and also that woman I used to like to stare at, just happened to be the two best Christians ever!”?
Isn’t Jesus the ultimate Mary Sue?
Depends on which of the ten million definitions of Mary Sue you’re going by.
Certainly he’s the ultimate artist self-insert character.
Limbo wasn’t supposed to be a “happy place”: it was supposed to be Boring. An entire eternity of nothing happening at all.
…No, I’m referring to Purgatory. I did 15 years of Catholic school. I’m definitely referring to Purgatory. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that it was addressed in Vatican Council II in a, “Oh yeah, we kind of did just totally make that up in the Middle Ages” kind of way.
Also, for reference, Catholicism believes that as long as you follow Christ’s teachings, you can go to Heaven. You don’t have to be Catholic. You might have had a different experience with another Catholic. Trust me on this–they were wrong.
I’m not trying to be defensive. I’m hardly Catholic. I just had to learn a LOT about the Catholic religion. 15 years.
I went to Catholic school for a long ass time and was an alter boy and youth minister and all that crap (before life events lead to me becoming significantly less pious.)
But I can vouch that Senorita is pretty much spot-on from what I can remember.
Actually, as a practicing Catholic (for a given value of practicing)
who is attending a Catholic College, I can say with some amount of certainty that purgatory does exist in Catholic belief and has existed since my birth some 20 years ago (significantly after the Second Vatican Council)
It’s a pretty exclusive club, though. Catholics only if I remember correctly. On the plus side, no membership fees.
Really? Last I heard the Morman’s had gotten hold of the place.
Heaven does have the best scenery but they try to keep out the vice.
well a lot of denominations allow for the possibility of a purgatory like place, but i think that only catholics unofficially put a name to it
But wait! The Book of Mormon, the play rather than religious text, has members of other Christian denominations in the Spooky Mormon Hell Dream with murderers! Musicals are obviously the most, and in fact only, reliable source of theological information.
According to pretty much every ex-Mormon I’ve chatted with, the South Park episode on Mormons is is really accurate. Since Matt Stone/Trey Parker also wrote the musical, I’d imagine it should be pretty accurate as well.
Out of all the Christian denominations, I actually like the Mormon versions of heaven the best, because there’s basically multiple tiers, , and one of them is for non-Mormons who were still nice people. It’s not supposed to be harmful or anything, and all the super-devout and the evil/verynotnice folks are off in their respective tiers.
Well depends on who you’re asking. According to Dante Alighieri’s writings purgatory is actually not for non believers, it is for the doubtful.
One stays on the mountain of purgatory based on how long he/she doubting the existence/righteousness of God.
There is also the first circle of Hell, Limbo, which is for the just non-believers (or those belonging in other religions). They don’t get punished like those in the levels below, but their souls wallow on forever in emptiness and desire as they don’t have the connection with God that all people truly desire in the form of ascending to heaven.
So, there is a better place Joyce, but then again good ole Dante loved him some Greek mythology so I dunno if your vision of hell matches up with his.
Well, huh. So that’s what the inside of her brain looks like. Needs more grey.
…matter that is.
I was thinking areas, but yeah, that too.
It’s a roped off area where you’re served fancy foods that are just…ok…
Does Joyce’s theology haz limbo?
No but if she is lucky, it might have salsa.
New story arc!? Oh my!
If what I was taught was correct, all of the lost will end up as ‘crispy critters’.
Is that quote from Final Fantasy 7, by any chance?
It’s also a fireman slang term for a human or animal that has been burnt to a crisp.
Good to know…
Kinda funny you chose Sailor Mars as your avatar with all this talk of burning critters. Or mayhaps intential.
If I was being intentional, I would have typed in CAPS.
Incredible Hulk music for Joyce.
hahahaha
The Incredible Hulk music for Joyce… Great choice for the moment, Wonder! =)
…Joyce, life isn’t as simple as you have been raised to believe.
it’s only as complicated as one makes it barring and sort of catastrophe.
Hold on! I thought Billie was your best friend!
No, she’s Billie’s best friend, not necessarily the other way around. ;p
Is she saying that cuz she’s leaving at the first opportunity? Because she’s engaging in the hanky-pank? Because she’s now with walky and won’t have time for her? Because just dating walky brings your social class down a couple notches in Joyce’s eyes?
o3o…I shoulda used more names. is Joyce just saying that cuz Dorothy is leaving* so on*
I’m voting for ‘secretly had a crush on her herself’.
I’m pretty sure it’s the “Dorothy won’t have time for her” option. You know, because Joyce has a secret crush on her.
TOTALLY.
Yes
Sounds kinda depressing if the first thing she thinks of when she sees a non-believer is that they are going to Hell one day.
th-the nice section of hell! They serve you flambes and only poke you with salad forks!
I agree completely. I don’t understand how someone can actually believe that following all of the instructions from a single book is practical in the real world today.
but it’s a really good book…THE good book in fact.
Well, it’s pretty good, but it’s no Hunger Games.
Less romance, more foreskin harvesting?
Saul: Could I have been any less literal?!
Ever heard “The Good Book”, by Tim Minchin?
This is more or less the norm, from what I can tell. The moment someone of faith figures out I’m agnostic and even slightly open to discussion about it, they immediately set out to try to save my eternal soul by teaching me the ways of Christ. It’s annoying, but they’re doing it because they’re really really uncomfortable with the idea of me going to hell.
Once I figured that last part out, it went from being very annoying to still kind of annoying but mostly pitiful.
I don’t talk to people about my religion anymore.
You just described my life.
The difference is that my girlfriend think I’m going to hell too. Thankfully, she also appears to think that this will only happen if we speak aloud about the subject.
Agh, that’s a bummer. I’ve more or less resigned myself to the fact that I probably won’t find anyone I wish to date who isn’t convinced of my hell-bound-ness until I leave the midwest.
Agnosticism isn’t a religion, or even a lack thereof.
One can be Agnostic Atheist or Agnostic Christian (or insert any other religion).
One can not be Agnostic by itself, it’s simply a qualifier. I’m assuming you’re Agnostic Atheist then?
I always saw it as the other way around. Agnostic is being without knowledge which really describes everyone while being a atheist is about being without faith. So being an agnostic doesn’t answer any questions about one’s FAITH (or lack thereof).
To be honest, this is the idea that caused me to view the idea of the Christian god and an Omnibenevolent god as incompatible and ultimately lead to me becoming an agnostic maltheist.
Yeah… one of several reasons I don’t believe in a god. I could only reach two conclusions, he didn’t exist or he’s a dick. I found the first to be more reasonable.
Yeah, I don’t rule out god (or gods) but I’ve flat told folks that if the Bible *really* is the literal word of god, then I do not feel that god is a good person or deserves my respect.
Now, if it’s the word of god filtered through man as my mother believes…well, then that’s more understandable. Still not my faith, but I can see it. Fallible, patriarchal men feeling that was an appropriate set of laws regarding rape? Sure, I buy that. Omnipotent god setting up those laws? He’s a jerk.
This.
If
A) God is omnipotent
B) God is omniscient
C) God is omnipresent
D) God is good
Then
– God is capable of creating a reality where free will is possible without suffering being a thing that exists
But S/He didn’t. Best thing I can come up with is that we’re a long-running TV series for Hir. Or a videogame.
Or even a webcomic.
Oh, forgot the most flame-causing conclusion:
– God is not good.
(Please note that this is my personal view, and I’m not saying that anyone else should believe the same thing, or that this gives a blank check for doing whatever one wants.)
Which gets kinda weird since maltheism is pretty close to the beliefs of the Albigensian Cathars who are considered to be followers of Gnosticism
She can’t be friends with Dorothy because of this?
I think it’s more that she thinks Dorothy won’t have time for her now that she has a boyfriend.
Oh, there totally is. Basically it’s just like living on earth, but all the movies star Paulie Shore.
In the worse part of hell, you get Paulie Shore as every character. Though the all Paulie version of Casablanca isn’t so bad.
“The problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans, buuuuddy.”
According to the Book of Michael (Warner) Hell is a long road where ye Arby’s is prophesied to be at ye village ahead yet is not and one is forever doomed to seek out ye Arby’s down this road and never find it.
Well, at least I won’t have to eat at Arby’s.
B-but… jalapeño poppers and Market Fresh Reubens?
They dropped the Jalepeno poppers
And what the hell does “Market Fresh” mean? You ever get a Reuben from a market? “Marketing Fresh” is more like it. It’s a big steaming pile of fresh marketing. Mind your boots.
In the worst part of hell ever movie stars Tommy Wisseu… and every time you laugh you are punched by a mike. they’re everywhere down there. (with all the arby’s)
Dear God. I need to start attending church a lot more.
“O Hai, Don Corleone. I am honored and grateful that you have invited me to your home on the wedding day of your daughter. Anyway, how is your sex life? “
Pauly for Limbo sounds right. It’s incrementally better than the movies in Hell itself which feature Jan-Michael Vincent.
I would pay money to see an all-Pauly-Shore version of Cassablanca.
There is, in many doctrines — shown to best effect in The Divine Comedy. Many belief structures hold that Hell opens with pagans and other ‘good’ people who didn’t believe or accept Christ having some relatively nice places to hang out, though always absent the presence of God, then work their way down to the really horrific bad stuff.
The idea that it’s either Heaven or full on Lake of Fire is a relatively recent invention. As in, the last few hundred years. And it’s far from the only current interpretation. But, it’s the interpretation of the loudest current movement, so….
Wait, the political satire known as the divine comedy? Because that was what that was. That’s why all of Dante’s political rivals just happened to burn in hell for all of eternity.
The book was a political satire, but he put all his favorite authors and philosophers who just happened to not be Christians in the happy part of Hell.
And they said Dante was really awesome and could join their club,.
I don’t think we give Divine Comedy enough credit as the first recorded self-insert fanfiction.
True. My favorite part of Inferno is Dante’s Satan. Satan the escalator.
Big fan of the Niven-Pournelle Inferno books, myself.
I also like how Satan looks like an RPG end boss, some 700 years before RPG end bosses had been invented.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thought this.
A lot of them also had to donate small fortunes to the Church or build churches to save face after the Divine Comedy was published.
Of course, Divine Comedy was Catholic. So’s the concept of Limbo, generally. The sort of midwest Christian Joyce seems to be generally aren’t too tight with the Catholic doctrine.
Not sure whether to feel sorry for or be mad at Joyce right now
Oh Joyce, if you had an actual intimate knowledge of the bible, it would tell you that the concept of Hell is very poorly defined and practically non-existent in the actual text.
That’s what I was thinking! But I am a hell-bound heathen
HUZZAH!
Pfft. As a Heathen myself, I expect to either end up with Freya or in Niflhelm. I really don’t see why I, as a non-Christian, ought to end up in their hell, any more than I expect to also end up in the Jewish, Muslim, or any other religion’s place-where-the-bad-people-go. Why should I? It’s the wrong pantheon. I strongly doubt Niflhelm is full of Christians.
But as Christianity these days seems to figure that theirs is the only god (despite the first commandment being “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” meaning that there ARE in fact other gods out there, according to that one, and even that one can also follow them too, so long as JHVH is the main one), it seems to be perfectly reasonable to them that their own version of hell is full of people from other pantheons. And that their Heaven has a bunch of people in it who never even heard of their god or religion before. Which just seems odd to me, and probably confusing at best to anyone who’d never heard of Jesus before who DID end up there. *Grin*
At worst…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU
joyce is kinda bein a douchette in this one
i can’t stand zealotry
Eh. In fairness, you don’t choose to believe that somebody is or isn’t going to hell. If you think they are, it’s because you just think that’s how the world works, and there’s nothing you can do about it except try to get them interested in the path to salvation. It’s to her credit that she cares about the fact that Dorothy is hellbound according to scripture, and her desire -not- to see bad things happen to her friend is actually an example of her caring side.
The problem just relates to her beliefs being, y’know…Not supported by any kind of evidence.
that’s just rationalizing her zeal
No, my point is, if you -believe- in scripture, zealotry is -reasonable-. In fact, if you really believe in scripture, zealotry is a moral imperative, because the only way to save people from an eternity of torment is by converting them.
The hangup is the fact that there’s -no good reason- to believe in the first place. But once the belief is there (and like I said, you don’t choose to believe), a good, moral person has no choice but to be overbearing.
Hell, even the churchI was brought up in preaches about the importance of ‘spreading the word’ and setting a good example, cos in their mind, if you are not al least trying to save the ‘lost’, then you must want those people to end up in the Lake of Fire.
And your avatar seems to reflect this…
Ah, but Joyce is at least reflecting on the douchiness. It is the one’s who stumble onward ever ignorant of their douchiness that concern me.
lucky coincidence
How can anyone not love zealotry?
I mean, it gives you three holy power for every Crusader Strike!
I think we can all get behind that.
If I remember correctly, the first layer of Dante’s Hell was reserved for the otherwise righteous non-believers. It wasn’t so bad.
Yeah, but they only got there because they died before Jesus existed and therefore can’t be held accountable for not worshiping him. Any non-believers born after Christ get the usual treatment.
Ah, too true. I knew there was at least one detail that I left out. Also, Joyce isn’t Catholic.
That’s reading into it a bit. The ones he mentioned were pre-Christian, sure, but how many non-Christians would Dante know from his contemporaries? (In a context other than “we/they are invading their/our land,” anyway.)
Limbo is usually presented as the destination for virtuous unbelievers, unbaptized babies, and other people who were good but not baptized Christian.
Not really. Saladin was there, too, and he was hardly born before Jesus. As I understand he wasn’t burning in hell because he was a very honorable “pagan” – more honorable than most of the christians in his day if I remember correctly.
If Hell is anything like it is in JtHM I imagine all the decent people who got their by accident immigrated out of the cities long ago and live amongst each other, all hoping for the far better company awaiting them in heaven. (They’re going to be disappointed when/if they find out Heaven is contently sitting in chairs. But not for long because then they’ll be content.)
I really want to see Joyce date Mike.
I want her to date Ethan just to see that blow up spectacularly and I imagine Mike does too.
Welcome aboard the good ship Miyce!!!
My biggest reason for doubting the existence of Hell is it’s never used as a threat for evil doers in the earliest chapters of the Bible. God threatens to smite people and does, but there is no warning that they will then be cast into a Lake of Fire which I would think would be an added incentive to be good. The concept of Hell isn’t included until later chapters after the newly released Israelites were influenced by Persian Zoroastrian beliefs in a dichotomous good vs. evil/heaven and hell world. In other words it was added later and not necessarily by divine authorship.
Well I think it’s because he didn’t want there to be an insentive to be good. He hoped man would be good. which brings up the question…knowing that man is flawed and would do wrong…why did he trust them to not do wrong and then get mad when they did do wrong?
We are but God’s ant farm.
He gave us free will, he should’ve known what was going to happen (being all-knowing/seeing and all).
That’s the problem with theological retcons like God’s all-knowingness (which doesn’t show up till long after the Abraham story). They raise big looming questions about the origin stories.
THE BIBLE, by Dark Horse Comics.
All-knowning. All-powerful. Creating life is complicated surgical work though. Just once your finger slips and now you’ve got some now you’ve got some jackass raising a rebellion effecting all the other creations like dominoes and you’re too lazy to correct your mistake now that it’s gotten this far out of hand so you throw them all on their own planet far away where they can do no harm and drop by once in a blue moon to play sims with some tribesmen.
An all-knowing God doesn’t flood the earth because the first batch didn’t work out. The concept that God should be all-knowing is Jewish and carries over to Christianity, but it arrives fairly late in Jewish theology so it isn’t expressed in most of the early stories.
Sort of like how in early old testament texts there were references to other gods. Elohim wasn’t the only god, he was the highest of all gods. Then as the culture evolved they phased those ideas out and the religion became truly monotheistic. That’s when they picked up allot of the ideas such as all-knowing and all-powerful god. These are pretty revolutionary ideas as far as religion is concerned so it’s understandable that the culture had to grow into them.
Surely it is plain that my post was meant in jest. The creation myth doesn’t start with “Whoops my finger slipped” and then tossing the failed batch. I can’t think of any religious denomination where that isn’t full-blown blasphemy.
I’m also not seriously claiming that God, the omnipresent God who allegedly loves us as his children, has no presence on the earth beyond occasionally popping in to fuck with some group of tribesmen for a while before killing them all in frustration because they won’t do what he says fast enough and won’t feed themselves if he doesn’t point out where the mana is and remind them that pork’ll kill them every single day.
*Creation story. Sorry. Freudian slip.
Dude, really it’s because of Jesus that God calmed down. Having a child really makes one reconsider life’s decisions. Clearly, he was trying to be less of a heavy handed jerk when his kid started wandering around.
Either that or the gnostics are right and Jesus stole divinity back from the heavy handed jerk. :p
Or ya know, that voice in the burning bush was, um, someone other than the god of Abraham? “I am that I am” seems to be a rather evasive answer when asked about your identity.
It was Popeye.
It’s where the term Pope originated. True Fax!
… what?! …
Really, ’cause, why would you even need a line like “Thou shalt have none other gods before me.” if he was the one and only? He says he is a jealous god and never actually says there are no other gods, just that he should come first.
My biggest reason for doubting hell is because the main source thereof is the book of revelations, a book which was most likely an allegory against Roman rule and not even intended to be taken as the word of God by the author. -.-
Not even intended to be taken as the word of God? Lets read the first three verses of the book:
“The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”
Now just for the sake of argument let’s read the first little blip from The Lightning Thief.
“Look, I didn’t want to be a half-blood.
If you’re reading this because you think you might be one, my advice is: close this book right now. Believe whatever lie your mom or dad told you about your birth, and try to lead a normal life.
Being a half-blood is dangerous. It’s scary. Most of the time, it gets you killed in painful, nasty ways.
If you’re a normal kid, reading this because you think it’s fiction, great. Read on. I envy you for being able to believe that none of this ever happened.
But if you recognize yourself in these pages—if you feel something stirring inside—stop reading immediately. You might be one of us. And once you know that, it’s only a matter of time before they sense it too, and they’ll come for you.”
Just ask Harry and Snape.
This does not tell me that this book was intended to be taken as the word of God, since the work is plainly symbolic. It does tell me that the author wanted to make apparent that he is well-versed in the newly developing Christian works and that he is coming form a Christian Jewish background. Of that I have no debate to begin with.
Most likely? That is pretty much the only way it was read for hundreds and hundreds of years. Making it a book of prophecy took some mighty mental gymnastics (also, Revelations is written from a clearly anti-Pauline anti-convert the gentiles viewpoint).
Where as in Matthew Jesus going: “But I say to you, that many will come from The East and from The West and will recline with Abraham and Isaaq and Jaqob in the Kingdom of Heaven.” But the children of the Kingdom will be cast out to outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” .
I actually feel bad for Joyce right now.
This is lovely. Truly. Say that you will about Joyce’s beliefs and zealotry (I suppose), it’s a touching and so sweetly funny last panel.
According to Dante and other people, there is a nice place in Hell where nice non christians go. It’s not the V.I.P. section but the company is extremely good.
So the questioning and doubts begin.
Someone introduce her to Dante Alighieri, stat.
Or perhaps Dorothy could show her the “Dante’s Inferno” movie made a couple of years ago. That is probably easier to do, less reading.
Or just have her to play the video game … and completely break her brain.
In Dante’s Inferno there’s a Earth-like circle of Hell for ‘virtuous pagans’ and just chill with Euclid and Socrates in villas.
Pagans’ only punishment was living without faith, which seems pretty cool by Medieval Religion standards. Then again, agnostics were stung by bees and atheists were burned upside down so there’s that.
Oh wait, sorry, everyone else already knows about Dante. TBH it’s pretty much pop culture if there’s a video game about it.
Aw man, hipster classical literature majors strike again. “I liked Dante’s Inferno before it was COOL.”
In case you were wondering the game is awful as well as being utterly unlike the poem to a rather hilarious extent.
Also, there’s lots of boobies in it.
Loads of boobies. And one dong.
But oh, what a dong.
Joyce, it probably won’t help you three days from now to be monologuing your thoughts out loud.
Nothing sweet about the last panel, Joyce is a religious nut who believes that if you don’t believe her way, take the highway. I don’t dislike Joyce and most of the time admire her for trying to ‘overcome’ her narrow minded upbringing. She has grown a lot. But sometimes….Right now her problem is just jealousy. Learn to share Joyce.
Yeah, I was thinking “well who WOULDN’T want to be friends with someone with that attitude?”…
“New Best Friend”? poor Becky. A week and she’s already going to be replaced. XD Ahh High School friendships..
This comic totally floats my ship. It may be temporary, but thank you anyway, Willis.
Religion is a funny thing.
Oh man, you just reminded me of that one part of IW! where Walky got mad at Joyce because she believed that Dina was in hell.
That was mean, Willis. Now I’m sad.
my feelings exactly, but at least this time she’s trying to find a sliver lining. Although, she’s still in the adorably full of bullpoopy stage.
Wait she won’t be her friend because she’s dating someone?
She figures her friend will now be too entrance in her romances to have time for Joyce
I don’t normally hold Joyce’s religious shenanigans against her, but she’s clearly just being jealous and bongoy and rationalizing it with the bible. Cut that shot out, Joyce.
Woo, typographical errers.
I see what you did their.
Uh… could it be that Joyce is thinking about the fact that it is a mixed-race relationship? The whole “Curse of Ham” thing has been interpreted as anti-miscegenation but I have heard some say it is more about prohibiting marriages across different faiths.
But she ships Billy and Walky. Give her a LITTLE credit.
That could explain it, as Walky is a believer(I think?) while Dotty is not.
As it says in the Bible, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.
Walky is fairly agnostic/apathetic.
So Dotty is a better match for Walky than Billie, at least spiritually.
Actually, Joyce, it’s really a less awesome Heaven.
Well, less awesome, but still way better than anything we can imagine.
Not that your enthusiasm for spreading your doctrinal views isn’t great and all, but what’s your goal here? I mean, you aren’t going to convince Joyce obviously, and you aren’t going to convince the author, and you aren’t going to convince fellow posters without a heck of a better argument than just a random assertion that contradicts the main character and nothing else.
I mean, I could understand if you said “X religion believes what Joyce wants to believe, go study it if you want to believe it too!” But instead you just leave us all hanging with a claim that is certainly not mainstream in Christianity at all. What’s the point?
You’re right! Joyce doesn’t read these message boards. Stevie should be messaging her on twitter!
Sense of humor … they must sell them somewhere … please purchase.
Is this Mormonism speaking? The thing that always comes to mind when I hear that little nugget is that it was said back in the early 1800s. So my mind translates it as “We’ll have double-ply toilet paper, as we all rot in our grimy, solitary cells forever.”
That’s an “interesting” view of the early nineteenth century . . .
Are you dissing the glory that is double-ply, man? Beware: double-ply is my god, and I serve it diligently (and it serves me).
But okay, there will probably be a lot less infant mortality in Hellheaven too. And less disease. And people probably won’t have to work for a living, as they sit in their cells. And fewer fears about spirits and demons pestering you. Little details like that.
But seriously, the toilet paper. (Cue heavenly choir.)
No, see, the Christian get castles, Muslims get super deluxe mansions with infinite rooms and pools. The rest of us get McMansions and only one pool. Also cable, but no premiums., but pay-per-view/on-deman stuff is all free, so you can still watch everything, it’s just less convenient.
Actually if we continued my presumption that we’re talking about Mormonism here, only the mormons get mansions, and presumably everybody else gets worse. Nobody else is allowed to have families or wives or children, nor are they allowed to be creative. They also don’t have the ability to travel freely.
But there’s still reason to hold out hope for that double-ply.
To be fair you guys all kind of knew what the deal was when you married till death do you part. Not like we invented that for you guys.
Who’s us guys? I guarantee you that I wasn’t one of the people inventing christian marriage vows. I’m a few years too young for that. For myself, if I do ever get married, it will be on my own authority, and I will thereafter remain married forever after, even after I die and even if all existence should end. (Similarly to how Socrates is still male despite being long since dust.) And any people, countries, deities or demons who might stoop to saying otherwise can blow my disintegrated corpse.
I do concede that it’s a bit odd that christians never got around to explicitly claiming eternal marriage once they got around to inventing/plagiarizing an individualized afterlife. But mormonism still holds the distinction of having specifically declared that their god will explicitly NOT recognize earthly marriage, and that It will actively force couples apart. A vicious little bit of marketing, that. (Of course the joke on modern mormons is that originally mormon celestial marriage explicitly meant *polygamous* marriage – a little detail that one supposes the modern mormons will be caught by surprise by…)
Christians likely don’t claim eternal marriage because you’re supposed to care more about your proximity to God than any mortal relationship in the afterlife. Also, widowers remarrying is totally okay in all mainstream Christian sects, which would make eternal marriage polygamous in many cases, which is NOT okay in all mainstream Christian sects.
There will be cable, but no premium channels.
So fun how her “intimate knowledge of the Bible” gives her cause to believe something with no doubt whatsoever that people with equally intimate knowledge have debated for millenia. I don’t much mind that she’s both ignorant nor that she believes she isn’t ignorant – character development needs to have room to happen somewhere. What I do mind is the implication that the author actually believes that that’s a doctrinal point beyond debate (this isn’t the first time he’s brought it up), that you’d have to reject the Bible before you could believe that it could merely be generalized for simplicity. Which is just stupid: anyone with an ounce of common sense could tell you that life after death implies decisions after death, which implies that people’s “eternal rewards” have every bit as much potential to vary as the quality of people’s lives do now.
I’m pretty sure that “a nicer area in hell for not-so-terrible people” refers to limbo, which is often a centerpiece of exactly these debates. I didn’t get the impression that Willis thought it was cast-iron doctrine at all, in fact, it seems to me that he’s making light of exactly that belief.
I dunno what’s more troubling: That CP thinks that whatever a character says more than once is something I obviously believe in myself, or that I am subsequently “stupid” and “without an ounce of common sense.” …regarding ideas about the afterlife.
Well, I put it to you, sir, that your ideas about unicorns are proposterous, and that only an idiot would think them!
Well, of course! Everyone knows that any time any character in a story has a belief or opinion, the author shares those beliefs or opinions. This is especially true when there are many characters in the work who hold incompatible positions and violently disagree with each other. Cone on, this is common sense.
Especially since the character espousing the viewpoint is an amusingly exaggerated parody of a certain model of Christianity.
(I like to pretend that I live in a world where Chick Tracts are only used as ironic gags and jokes, rather than something people actually take seriously. That world is fun.)
Yup, because the only way to survive in a college you were nearly raped in a few days ago (in-verse) due to being somewhat naive as a result of being exclusively homeschooled, is to foreswear your few good friends that you’ve made.
Though I doubt that Ryan the Rapist will return, deciding that you have to go it alone doesn’t sound that healthy either.
Whoa victim blaming. She was nearly raped because a dude TRIED TO RAPE HER. And that’s the only reason. Also he drugged her, and drugs affect the naive and worldly alike. You could argue that a more worldly person would have avoided the drink, except that drinking out of open cups like the one he gave her is the entire point of such parties, so it would be a bad argument if you tried it.
Hell? What’s this Hell you speak of? /bandwagon
The place we dine tonight!!!
Needs moar exclamation points.
The Place!! We Dine!! Tonight!!
Don’t eat the chicken.
…or the salmon moose.
Oh Joyce, don’t worry–if there’s a hell below, we’re all gonna go.
Preeeety sure that’s not how it works, at least with modern Christian interpretation. Maybe to the old school bible-thumpers, but that’s not the real view of the modern church anymore.
Pagans and atheists don’t go hell if they follow the basic tenants of Church. And the most basic tenants of the Church are, do not be an amoral asshole. Traditional faith in god is important, but if they never are really acquainted with God cause Christianity is not everywhere, if they lived their life a good person, they still go to heaven. God doesn’t punish ignorance, at least not unintentional ignorance.
I still think hell is overfilled with most of our late popes and other “good christians”, so there wouldn’t be any space to waste on some nice pagans.
Wait, if I go to Hell I’d get to meed some popes and most other famous historical figures? Awesome! It’s a win-win situation!
Dude, if you go to Hell you can meet nearly everyone. It’s a historian’s wet dream!
Yeah it’s kind of like in South Park where everyone ends up in Hell except Mormons… but the upshot is there are a lot of famous people there and Satan hosts some lovely luaus.
I may be a Christian, but that’s one of the most basic problems I have with the whole thing. “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
It’s… fairly clear, that unless you follow Jesus, you aren’t getting in. Now either that passage and others similar are correct, and someone like Ghandi is in hell, or it’s not, and… well then at least part of the Bible is wrong.
That said, I once had this bongoing dream where the End of Days was really just a disguised Battle of the Bands, where God and the Heavenly Chorus vs Satan’s Demon Metal Band rocked out for the ages, with organs vs electric guitars. It was epic. And probably means I listen to too much Tenacious D. *laugh*
So there is this passage in Matthew where Jesus says to a Roman, and therefore likely a pagan, that he will go to heaven. Maybe it’s not so much about being Christian as it is about believing in the teachings of Christ, being as Christ like as we can be.
Actually, that passage clearly states to me that at some point Jesus is going to have his stigmata opened up a bit wider and stand blocking the pearly gates: if you want in, you’re going to have to crawl through the hole. (Only the penitent man will pass – others will bang their heads on his knuckles.)
Of course, that’s only if you take the bible literally. If you decide to interpret it any old wishy-washy way, then obviously you can come to any conclusion you like.
Either that or Jesus is going to stand at the gate and Rochambeau all comers.
Literalism, man! You gotta go through Jesus, like tearing a hole in him and crawling through, or maybe by having him eat you and coming out through and out of his digestive tract. (He stated he wanted us to eat his flesh and drink his blood – perhaps that’s to warm us up to the idea of him doing it back.)
Literalism is fun! Too many christians are inconsistent about it though.
Loophole: the only way to the FATHER is through him. This statement actually doesn’t disqualify all the other “good ends” of all the other religions. It simply says that to get the Christian best ending, you need 5000 in war assets… er I mean do what Jesus says. If you don’t do that, you can possibly get the alternate Hindu or Buddist or what have you best ending.
Wow, you can almost fit a poisson on the age range
What did that mean? Is she grumpy cause she thinks that she lost Dorothy, because she has a boy now? That she’s not so great due to dubious taste in men? That she’s jealous that Dorothy got herself some romance without even really trying while she’s actively looking and all she got so far was Joe? That she can’t even look at Dorothy anymore without thinking about Walky’s Buns of Caramel?
Yes, no, yes (but you forgot Ryan), and yes.
Any other questions?
Joyce obviously doesn’t know that the reason many students find someone from uni/college to get married to is that they weren’t seeking to get married when they started to go to uni/college.
If you actively seek someone to get married to in uni/college, it kinda sounds desperate and that puts off a lot of potential partners, not to mention killing the mood.
…And now Joyce goes to see Mary. Dun dun dun.
Hmmm…
You know, a lot of that hell-fire and damnation, and all of that was only created by Christian preachers who wanted to scare their congreagations into doing what is “right”. The Bible actually doesn’t mention it much except in Revelations, when it talks about the devil being cast into a lake of fire and brimstone.
I suspected it back then, but now I KNOW it.
Mike’s plan was not to upset Walky, it was to unite Dorothy and Walky in order to make Joyce fell alone, so she will try to go after Ethan (and get even more hurt)…. and perhaps make Ethan fell bad about himself in the way.
When he said “you are not my target”, he was clearly not talking about Walky.
And Thus joyce falls into one of the classic blunders Christians tend to fall into alot being so afraid of being influenced that they forget that they are called to do the influencing themselves.
She’s not really afraid of being influenced. She’s jealous that Walky’s taking her friend away from her and she’s using excuses like “She’s probably a bad influence anyway” to try and make herself feel better.
It’s not going to work, though, because she’s -totally- gay for Dorothy.
That reminds me. Where is that nexus of depravity that sends the very fabric of reality surrounding him into shudders of revulsion? Where….is Ninja Rick? And is Faz there too?
Uh… man, Joyce (and folks like her) really makes me sick. I have now actually been disgusted by a web comic.
If there is one thing that christians, or any religious group, tend to forget, it’s that their holy texts were written by people, no God. Considering that there are numerous versions of the bible as well, each with a different canon, plus the fact that our idea of hell and the devil is a construct of the church as well as many fiction writers (dante, milton, etc.) and not something that was in the original version of the bible. “Hell” is actually a word that was used in place of a few different terms, including Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades which all have very different meanings in the languages in which they originate from (Hebrew and Greek).
If one is to think about it, if the Bible was actually the “word of god” there should not be different versions of it at all. If we are supposed to obey everything that God says, and the Bible is the word of God, by editing it and deciding on which parts are canon, and which are not (such as the apocrypha) are we not then disobeying the word of God by deciding which parts of the Bible we are going to pay attention to? Plus the fact that so much of the English versions Bible is skewed from the original meanings simply because it was lost in translation, such as the word Hell (this occurs numerous times throughout the Bible – I will not list them here as I don’t have all day, but look it up.) and one is left with a document that has been edited so many times that it bares little resemblance to the original texts.
We have a modern example of how people will believe anything they are told if they simply want to believe it: Scientology. This religion was started by a man who wrote SCIENCE FICTION, and the principles of Scientology are similar to many sci-fi ideas. But, even though this was started by, again, a man who wrote fiction, many people around the world have taken this as fact. Now, lets look at all of the fantastic stories in the Bible: the whole world was flooded at one point, and a man was able to put two of every species on the whole planet onto an Ark… There is another man who can walk on water, create food, and come back from the dead. Sounds a little science fictionesgue to me… But scientologists are generally seen by christians as pretty crazy, even though they believe some of the craziest crap ever conceived.
Long story short, there is nothing wrong with a belief in some higher power. We don’t know what started the universe. We don’t. Any organized religion assumes that we do, so believing all the crazy stuff like heaven and hell is just that: crazy. WE MADE IT UP. GOD DID NOT. The sooner we all understand this, the happier we will all be, and people will stop being horrible to each other in the name of God. The best people i have ever met, the ones that go out of their way to help others, have all been atheists. Because, as an atheist, one only has now to be good. The christian people in my life have only alienated everyone they know by judging them, going as far to disown people from their own families simply because they didn’t believe… And these people expect to go to Heaven simply because they believe in God. As long as they are sorry for the shitty things they do in life, they will be saved, but the atheist who has done only good in their life will be TORMENTED for ETERNITY because they didn’t believe in the meesed up texts written by people who want us to believe in an invisible man running the show who never contacts us, or at least has not in two millenniums, and then who only contacted those who wrote the stories… How does this not strike everyone as insane?
…As a character, Joyce really needs to open her eyes. Before this comic, I at least felt that her character was a good person. Now, she’s the most despicable character in this whole comic.
wow tldr. I might later though.
Did read the last line though, and honestly I have to say manrapistman definitely outdoes her there.
How about giving her more than a week before you start demanding she completely change her worldview. That stuff takes time. The fact that she even tries to incorporate people who don’t follow her beliefs into her life puts her leagues above most of those folks you say are like her. She could’ve just as easily been like Mary, who goes around preaching moral and religious superiority while acting like a complete tool to everyone. And at the end of the day, Joyce was an extremely sheltered child. Homeschooled her whole life, not allowed to go anywhere further than her own house unsupervised until she was sixteen. Her religion seems to be all she really had growing up. It’s just as much her crutch as it is her belief.
This is seems to be a peeve for you and you probably have met people like that and for that I’m sorry. But those people are those people and Joyce is Joyce. They’ll probably never change, but Joyce seems to be on the way. So just give her a chance and some time. That’s the thing about stories. Nobody starts out perfect, but they get better by the end. It’s the journey to that better person that makes it interesting.
There’s so much here I don’t agree with, but it’s that last part that makes me incredibly uncomfortable. This idea she has (an idea, not an action) is what makes her horrible? After all the decent things she does, how she’s nice to people, and genuinely wants people to be happy, she has an idea and that makes her despicable? That is so closed-mindedly ignorant I’m having trouble finding a start point.
I can’t stand closed minded people. I can’t. If your position includes the phrase “and if you don’t agree with me you’re a moron” then you’ve lost any ground you were standing on. Your position seems to be that Joyce’s belief system makes any of her positive, redeeming qualities null and void. You also take the position that if she had her belief ripped from her, she would be happier in the long run. That’s terrifying to me.
I’m going to take a moment to apologize to you, on behalf of the Christians that hurt you however they did. I want you to know that the loud mouth, hate filled, intolerant invective you have been exposed to does not represent me or the bulk of people who share my faith. Like any group, Christians have crazies. But also like any group, there are many decent, kind, hard working people in our number. We’re no-more all Fred Phelps than all Muslims are Osama Bin Laden. But we do have those people, and we’ve done a poor job of reigning them in so far.
All of that said, you are welcome to your opinion. My opinion is that extremists are scary, regardless of the position they’re extreme on.
Okay, the types of Christians you’re complaining about don’t “forget” that their scriptures are just written by men. They deny it. They axiomatically state that their scriptures are the words of god, dictated with perfect accuracy, or close enough. They flatly reject the notion that it was written as fiction the same way you might reject the claim that your science book is fiction.
Let’s reiterate – they take this axiomatically. Which means that when something else appears to contradict it, that other thing must be wrong. Other translations? Wrong, if accepting them would mean that the texts are untrue. Or perhaps they reject your assertion that multiple versions means untruth. Or whatever. This shouldn’t be news to you – people have been rejecting all kinds of facts for generations in deference to their beliefs: evolution, the age of the planet, whatever. Some reject more or less than others, but it all comes down to what they think needs to be rejected to keep their world consistent with the beliefs that they axiomatically accept.
Is this stupid? Maybe, but if so it’s a really common stupidity. I do concede that it’s annoying as hell, though.
Yes, the bible was written by people. It was meant as a sort of history of God’s creation & involvement with it. It’s been revised from the original languages so that people that cannot read those languages could read it, but again, it’s been revised by people, therefore it is necessary to follow your heart, beliefs and follow your personal walk with God as you discover the TRUTH aka the real word of God, hidden in ALL religions. Regardless of what religion you start with, so long as you seek the truth continuously, you will find it. However, you must be the one to descern the TRUTH from falsehood.
I believe that Heaven & Hell are not matters of real estate but instead a state of being. The closer one is to God, the more one can be said to be in Heaven & then there’s the concomitant analogous opposite. I also believe that one’s relationship with God is requisite upon following any particular religious belief: it’s what’s in the heart that counts.
Not that I expect anybody to notice this way down here anyhoo.
I seem to have left a negative out of there someplace.
I also don’t believe… etc.
Out of curiousity, would those of us who don’t like God be forced to be unhappy by not being in his presence? Or would we able to party down after tossing that pesky God out? (He’s such a buzzkill, man.)
One theory is that God emits some kind of special radiation that all of God’s creatures needs to feel OK, by cutting you from ‘His presence’ you end up feeling terrible like a junkie going through withdrawal.
That is why Jesus felt abandoned on the cross as he was aborbing all of the sins, cos sins are like spiritual lead, blocking all the Godly radiation goodness.
And they say that Doctor Who makes no sense…
So what you’re saying is…God is a red sun and sin is kryptonite?
Yellow sun, not red sun! Red sunlight is practically kryptonite itself – exposure seems to immediately corrupt and drain any stored yellow energy that you might be housing.
(This never made any sense to me.)
http://wondermark.com/820/
After seeing this, I’d happily read a whole new webcomic that’s nothing but close-ups of Joyce doing various facial expressions.
Or applying the dinosaur comics formula to this page.
Well, the First Circle of Hell is actually kind of a nice place.
HOW IS SHE SAYING ALL THESE THINGS WITH HER MOUTH CLOSED??
WITH THE POWER OF SATAN OF CAUSE!
Joyce is a master ventriliquist… perks of being homeschooled include mastering odd talents.
Joyce makes facial expressions and soul-searches for a moment.
I’m strangely okay with this, although I’m not really sure why Dorky being reality makes Dorothy unsuitable as a friend.
Dorky! That’s awesome.
It’s because Joyce knows that her all-consuming jealousy for the caramel will force her into one of her red-eyed rages, and Dorothy would have to die. So she can’t let herself see them together.
Hey, it’s one theory!
What’s Joyce all bent out of shape about? Cause on my first reading it just sounds like she’s gotten her panties in a winch that one of her friends had the audacity to get a boyfriend without her permission.
It’s just the scene from Lion King. You know, “our trio’s down to two” and all that?
Well Joyce, there is Purgatory if you believe that.
It is thoughtful of Joyce to hope Dorothy has a decent afterlife.
Can’t believe no one said this:
Intimate knowledge of the Bible sounds like a good way to get some very uncomfortable paper cuts.
I am fairly certain that there are no graphic descriptions of hell in the bible at all, everything people “know” about it was made up by the church during the dark ages as a way to discourage the miserable people from committing suicide.
Intimate knowledge of the Bible, you say?
“Behind the door and doorpost you put your symbols. Indeed, you depart from me and go up and invite them into bed with you. You purchase favors from them, you love their bed, and gaze longingly on their genitals.” (Isaiah 57:8)