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My vibe is that, Becky is trying to let Joyce off the hook. Like, if what Joyce needs right now is to attend a church that has the cultural and ritual elements she’s familiar with, even if that church is anti-LGBT, Becky is trying to give her permission. Which seems incredibly kind, if maybe not necessarily wise.
I suspect that Becky is a Theist– that is, she believes in God, but not any particular religion, not deep down. She was unworried about the spiritual consequences of coming out as gay and leaving her Christian college; she’s not threatened by evolution; none of the ritual’s in Bryan’s church bothered her.
Becky wants what’s best for Joyce, and, as she sees it, what is best for Joyce might be attending an evangelical church and tuning out the anti-gay stuff. I don’t really agree that that’s best for Joyce (or anyone). But, I can see why Becky might think that, and it speaks of her love of Joyce that she tries to offer this permission.
I agree with this interpretation of Becky’s comment, and it also makes me wonder how she’s feeling. When I was their age and had friends who were finding themselves religiously, I was definitely like, “If this is what you want, I will support the heck out of you” even when it was somewhat breaking my heart.
Deism is a belief in a non-interventionist God. God exists, but does not or cannot interact with our lives or the world in any way. Believing that God answers lesbian prayers (or any prayers at all) means she is probably not a deist.
Theist may be the closest word there is to describe Becky simply because, while she believes in a theistic God, she doesn’t have any particular doctrinal beliefs to put her in a more specific category. She may find herself at home among Unitarian Universalists, but she may just find a UU church to be just another place to go on a Sunday.
A little more complicated, since I’m sure Becky’s conception of God is still a very Christian one, while Theist goes beyond that to cover pretty much anything religious.
I mean, she is a theist, but so are Joyce, Jacob and Raidah. She might not have specific enough doctrinal beliefs to pick a specific Christian denomination, but I’d be shocked if they weren’t specific enough to rule out Hinduism or Islam or Judaism.
Even among Christian sects, you’d think she’d want to find one that didn’t conflict over her only known doctrine – God answers lesbian prayers. Preferably one with guitars.
If you live in the Stargate universe that’s the way to go. I remember one episode where there was debate whether the million to one chance thing the main characters did actually worked or if it was close enough to working that the Norse gods could intervene.
I think you’ve pretty much nailed Becky’s motivation, but I am 100% sure Joyce herself would not be ok with “attending an evangelical church and tuning out the anti-gay stuff.” She’s way too invested in the expressed beliefs of her religion.
Seems right to me. I can’t really imagine Becky attending an anti-gay church on her own for long, but she’d do it for Joyce.
(I can kind of see a montage of Becky standing up and yelling “I am a lesbian” in the middle of services and being run out of church after church until she finds one where they just accept her. All with guitars, of course.)
If it were a Quaker meeting, Becky would totally be allowed to shout “I am a lesbian!” in the middle of the service. That’s actually kind of a thing that Quakers do; they sit throughout most of the service in total silence, but they stand up when they feel “moved by the spirit” to say something that they’ve been feeling strongly – whether it’s a thought, a question, or an answer. If she felt a spiritual need to let her community know she’s a lesbian, they’d probably accept it.
Songs and music aren’t terribly frequent in Quaker services, but they’re not forbidden either. Becky might have to bring her own guitar, or settle for joining some Quakers as they play retro protest songs at a peace rally or anti-pollution protest. Not kidding; my Quaker meeting has had a bunch of events where they protested a pipeline, prayed for peace, and spoke out against Donald Trump, and guitar music happened at all of those. Quakers are pretty much less-ostentatious hippies.
You have a good interpretation. I saw her comment another way. To me, it sounded more like: “I believe that God loves me no matter what anyone else says about it and I can put up with narrow-minded people if I have to. And to be quite honest- your church is boring.” I agree that it was likely said for Joyce’s benefit, but more to let her know that feeling connected to God doesn’t mean that she has to feel connected to his congregation. I think it was encouragement for Joyce to find a church that speaks to her and worry less about the beliefs of the individuals.
I also agree, though, that Joyce probably will less and less find comfort in an anti-LGBT church because the sermons that address the topic will make her feel frustrated and uncomfortable the more she grows in tolerance. I think what she needs to do is keep exploring her options of churches until she finds one that has the tolerance of Jacob’s and the celebratory tone of her old one.
You guys are over thinking Becky. She’s not talking about selecting and support faith groups. She’s simply saying which activities she likes better. She’d rather be hearing some rock than get stuck kneeling. doctrine and supportiveness is also good and important, but that’s not going to make her enjoy the music any better.
Becky. It is what it is, so live in the moment.
She’s choosing guitars over no guitars. She explicitly says that the religion itself is wrong about her, and that she and God are cool, no matter what anyone says.
Yeah, but the guitars in this case come with a whole bunch of other stuff. Personally, I think Becky might be saying what she is in part to comfort Joyce.
I do hope, though, that Becky can find an inclusive church with guitars some day.
She’s choosing guitars and rejection over no guitars and inclusion, in response to Jacob posing that dichotomy. And…choosing the guitars and rejection is a weird, seemingly self-disrespecting choice. Extra weird given how self-confident she is in her personal religious views.
I don’t think the guitars and inclusion are mutually exclusive, though.
Joyce likes the message that Jacob’s church has, but dislikes how formal it was. Jacob thinks that the message is the important thing.
Becky isn’t literally saying “I’m going back to my old church where I can be hated by everyone”, because she clearly isn’t. She’s just saying that she doesn’t like the formality either.
The guitars and inclusion aren’t mutually exclusive, but that’s how they were being discussed and that’s what Becky responded to with her choice. It’s hard not to take it that way in this context.
But it’s not really about guitars. Joyce says she didn’t “feel God in it.” The dichotomy might be, “a place where you feel God, but your friend is rejected,” versus, “a place where your friend is accepted, but feels spiritually empty to you.” Becky is being flippant, but she’s trying to give Joyce the option to attend the former without guilt.
Nawww, Becky is saying “I don’t care about the community of church.” That’s what this is really about. She doesn’t seem to feel any close connection to any church communities right now, so she prefers to just worship and have fun doing it.
I don’t study religion, so I may be overgeneralizing, but most religions have various sects, including Christianity, and each sect has a different opinion on what their religion is about. They decide what they believe and how they worship. Becky’s a Christian- she believes God exists and loves her (and presumably most, if not all other people), and she doesn’t believe that God is homophobic, or believe in Creationism. And you might say that she’s just picking and choosing what being a Christian is, but so is everybody else.
I think it’s just that she likes the “fun” church better than the one that stands on ceremony. Nothing wrong with that, either – she’d just need to find one that wouldn’t believe she’s condemned to Hell for not being straight.
She’s choosing her religion, which does not actually include the homophobia*, and rejecting mainstream US Christianity as unimportant. I’d say that’s pretty damn good. Hell, as a queer Christian/ Christian-adjacent, reading that speech bubble made me feel a little better too.
*I’m talking about what’s actually in the religion, not what the mainstream US Church has turned it into. Because I think its the former she’s referring to, with the whole (“God loves me no matter what”)
Becky has shown us pretty clearly she’s not going to return to her abusive and cult-like Christian community.
It’s a lot more than just the mainstream US Church. Homophobia is deeply ingrained in Christianity around the world. There are more and more branches that are getting past that, but there’s been an anti-homosexual crusade in the Church for a long, long time.
Well…. duh? There’s been lots of gross stuff done in the name of Christianity over the years which either directly contradicts the Bible or takes a passage from it and twists it up into something hateful. And it still goes on, just like when people do hateful violent things in the name of other religions. (Even though I don’t think those religions actually support those actions either. Its why I get so mad when people act afraid of Muslims. They’re nice people and what I know of their religion is pretty darn positive.)
I’m just here to talk about the comic and how I relate to it, so I specified US because that’s where both Becky and my experiences are. And I still believe that the religion itself isn’t inherently homophobic, just that there are too many people who use any opportunity to be selfish and violent.
Homophobia is such a frustrating aspect to many religions. I read a textbook once that was a comparison of nine major world religions teachings on sexuality, family structure, and gender; each chapter gave overviews of stances and scriptural bases for stances, then how those beliefs played out in different countries (for example, places where that religion is majority vs. minority). The nine religions were Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Other Polytheism.
While there were differing beliefs about the purpose of sexuality, all of the eight most mainstream either expressly condemned same-sex relationships, or did not officially sanctify them. The only sanctified same-sex relationships were in the scriptures of some “Other Polytheism” religions.
In terms of the thousands-of-years-old histories of these religions, there were no theological movements to sanctify same-sex relationships until the past 100 years or so, often far less.
It’s so baffling to me, even though I can somewhat understand the rationales. But, still–so few commonalities across the board, but anti-same-sex relationships is one of them.
This is a little odd for me to say, but I’m kinda getting the feeling that Joyce’s faith is really shallow. I know she lives it and breathes it completely, but her life before college was so sheltered that I kind of feel like her college experience is the first time she’s ever questioned any of this – that it’s the first time she’s ever thought that maybe, just MAYBE, her faith wasn’t what she thought it was.
It seems pretty clear to me that Becky went through that a long time ago, probably back when she was realizing herself that she wasn’t straight. And she seems to have her head on her shoulders. She knows what she believes and has a rock-solid foundation. Jacob, also, seems pretty comfortable and confident with his faith.
Joyce… she grew up sheltered, with a skewed understanding of Christianity and a lot of wrong theology. She was taught to be ashamed of her sexuality and fear any sin, among many other things. Heck, she even says here that she’s defining her experience not by the teaching or by the devotion or fellowship, but by her -feelings-. I thought she had a solid foundation, but the paint on her rock-solid foundation has been removed, and it’s all styrofoam underneath.
… I’m assuming I know where this is going, as Willis has stated that Joyce’s experience is somewhat autobiographical. And I’m sad. I’ve been through something like this when I started college; I realized that the God I thought I believed in was nothing but fluff and fancy words and empty rituals. But it drove me to try to get a REAL relationship with God and actually understand Him for who He is without any skewed church telling me what to think. And Joyce… well…
Her Christianity is core to her identity; it literally makes her the adorable little cinnamon bun that we all love. And if she loses that, then this becomes an even darker, more unhappy story. Maybe with its moments of light here and there. But losing faith in everything that you ever believed in really isn’t a cheerful subject, regardless of your religion.
I wouldn’t really say that Joyce’s Christianity is at the core of her identity. Its obviously a huge part of her life, but her sense of justice,determination, and loyalty seem to be more important to her. Just look at how she reacted to Becky coming out to her. When she saw that telling Becky she had made a mistake made her friend feel worse, she changed tact and embraced her for who she was, regardless of whether God was ok with it or not. Afterwards she found a way to reconcile her God with Becky’s sexuality through research, but she made it pretty clear before then that she was loyal to her friend before her religion.
I’m not saying that becoming an atheist wouldn’t be horribly traumatic for Joyce, but I think she’ll be able to come through with her cheerful optimistic personality in tact. Dorothy could help fix her up with atheist friendly philosophies to give her a reason to get up in the morning, and she’ll probably adopt social justice or something like that as her new passion to fill the gap left by Christianity.
Isn’t religion all about feelings, mainly the feeling of belonging? Of being part of something greater than yourself?
And right now, Joyce gets that feeling not with her old church and we saw her freaking out with the service she just attended so there weren’t many moments where a feeling of belonging could come up.
Evangelical churches are good in creating movements of connection that’s a mayor part of their success.
I think Becky recognizes this, and she seems to find it more important to have the connection (which has no relation to the words being said) than the right words.
No, not really; at least, not at a foundational level. You could argue that worship is based off of feelings, but again, that’s a bit shallow, and only a small portion of one’s experience as a Christian.
When it comes down to it, a religion is very close to a philosophy: a way that you see the world and interpret what is around you, with the main difference being that the religion is based off of a metaphysical understanding of the world, and philosophical being purely physical. A church (or temple, mosque, etc.) is essentially a group of like-minded people who agree on the same basic philosophy and who wish to gather together in order to pay respect, honor, serve, and learn about the deity they serve. As a result of doing these tasks, the worshipper may feel fulfilled. But the purpose of going to church, being with those believers, and doing those actions isn’t self-motivated; it’s outwardly motivated. You do these things for the deity you serve, not for some personal reward.
This usually seems extremely strange and awkward to an outsider (Dorothy wondering where she should look while singing to the invisible man in the sky), and oftentimes people try to rationalize it by saying that religion is a means to some other end – feeling good about oneself, feeling like they have a place in the world, inner peace and calm, a greater community, et cetera. And all of those things are good and should not be discounted. But to think of them as the end and the purpose of the action, instead of simply as the outcome of a life genuinely lived with a purpose for one’s god or one’s belief, is to put the cart before the horse. The Christian ‘feels good’ because they believe in God; they don’t believe in God in order to ‘feel good.’
I’d say this *can* be true but usually isn’t: that for each person who’s thought about their faith and what it means to them, and their community, there are a hundred who are blindly going through the motions because that’s what they’ve done their whole life. Their sense of community comes from sharing space with people who share their social norms, and then their religion is a thin veneer of deity over those social norms.
And yet, from the outside, it very much looks like many churches try to create that good feeling, through well known psychological tactics – that’s what all the ritual, affirmation, singing etc does.
This debate has been going on for generations in the Church. One side: “Stop chasing a feeling. Seriously, stop it. Holy rollering and falling down in the aisles and everybody with their hands in the air and the preacher up there pacing back and forth and yelling? Anybody can make a big noise, but y’all are missing a lot of actual content. The liturgy is there so that we can do things as a group that reinforce our beliefs, and it also reminds us of stuff we might otherwise leave out. Being transported in the Spirit will happen on its own schedule.” Other side: “Why are you sitting there reading words out of a book? Why do all your hymns sound so formal? What’s with all the doctrine talk from the pulpit? Is there no spontaneity, is there no joy? Why can’t people just speak from the heart? Why can’t we unite in joyful worship?”
Personally I’m on the formal side because I really dislike it when music and preaching try to make me feel something on cue.
Same here. Music and lyrics are intended specifically to produce a specific emotion. If my religious experience is no deeper than that of a ten-year-old watching Elsa belt out “Let It Go,” then it’s nothing but manufactured emotion.
Which is the point. Whatever the internal debates about it, it works. It gets butts in the seats. Churches that do so have more members, more power, more influence. Pretty much regardless of theology.
The thing is, IMO (as an occasionally-cynical non-believer), that’s exactly the experience that a lot of believers are chasing and that some churches are selling. They don’t want to contemplate the details of scripture, they just want to feel. To be swept up in literal religious ecstasy. A lot of them, again IMO, do actually believe in some deity or another, but they’ve connected the worship of Him with gettin’ high and being part of a community.
I beg to differ on the “agree on the same basic philosophy” part.
The church offers some sort of explanation of the world and how one should conduct oneself theirin, but where I grew up, people went to church because that was something you did. And my catholic relatives in Ireland came in the flavours of “more catholic than the pope” and “Jesus never said anything about birth control” and they all attended the same church.
To my mind, organized religion is a thing that organizes life (from what I read, in the more rural areas of the US, the churches are involved in anything from village festivals to providing food for people in need and there is not really anything else that might provide social,cohesion). Without religion helping to organize life, organization of people might not have gone beyond city level.
In my mind, the wish to belong and be secure (and safe) are the needs that drive religion, and how this is actually done and which tenets one believes in used to be a matter of not too much choice. This has changed with faster communication and stuff, where you might learn about other churches or religions and chose one that fits your life more. But that’s a thing that’s rather recent in history. Before, most people tried to find a place within the framework of their religion because being outside of it had severe social punishments. Some who felt (again: feeling) strongly about something might have started and tried to reform their church, but that was uphill work. Maybe the US developed this slightly differently because most of the early settlers were dissenting sects of Christiandom so they had a stronger tendency when not of the same opinion to start a new church than the people who remained in Europe?
From what you’re talking about, you’re referring to religion as a mostly civic institution, that has a purpose specifically for social organization, and castigation for those who are outside of it. And from a certain perspective, I can see where you’re coming from. Certainly, in the more Bible-belt areas of the US, there’s a certain society that expects you to go to church as the “thing you do.” And I can’t argue the fact that in those societies, there might be absolutely nothing more to being a member of a faith then just hanging out with your social circle.
And there’s certainly a large amount of history, especially with the Catholic church before the reformation, in which Christianity was used as a method of social organization and control for a society that just didn’t have much in the wake of the fall of the Roman Empire. So what you’re saying certainly has merit.
But for many professing believers, they don’t do it because they ‘feel’ they need to do it or because society dictates it. If that was the case, then you wouldn’t have those small pockets of persecuted Christians in Iraq and Syria and India and China, or people who go to churches in more left-leaning regions in which Christianity is the exception, rather than the rule. To them, the religion -is- a complete worldview, how they define existence and how they orient the direction of their life. A church is more than just a social organization; it’s where you spend the most important time of the day.
And feelings only have a small portion of it. Martin Luther and the other reformers didn’t take on the Catholic church because they ‘felt bad’, they argued for reformation and later splintered specifically due to intelligent criticisms and critiques of the Church; areas in which it was contradicting its own teachings or the words of Jesus. It was intense logical theological debate, which continues to this day between numerous religious denominations and sects. And while Europe has cooled in the last three hundred years into essentially being set in its religious ways, it once was the hotbed of intense theological debate; where people regularly fought and died for what they believe. America is such a turmultous mixing pot of every different religious belief specifically because those people who felt extremely different than others left Europe and settled in the New World.
You don’t become a martyr for a source of civic organization, or for an emotional connection to a band with guitars. You become a martyr for a cause that you believe in so strongly that it’s worth more than yourself to uphold it.
Joyce is realizing that not all beliefs that people hold dear are good and right, and that a good number of them reside with the doctrines that she currently (or used to) hold dear. Yet she’s already been trained to believe that there’s only one way to feel close to God: specifically from the type of church that she grew up in. That’s the kind of feeling you get when your parents are so over-concerned about the specific doctrine that they believe that they jump from church to church just to get the perfect one. She’s left with this feeling not that her God is the only way, but that this extremely narrow way of understanding Him is the only way. And if that’s removed, she has nothing.
Bravo to Jacob for trying to broaden Joyce’s horizons. But if she isn’t able to reconcile his church and his faith as being the same as the one she had, and quite probably more grounded and ‘correct’ then what she grew up in, then all of her parents’ teaching essentially is driving her to NOT be a Christian.
Instead you get religious wars about trivial aspects of doctrine. Which pretty much proves the point: even then for most people, the religions are about identity and tribalism. Those emotional connections are what people fight for. They’re what unscrupulous leaders use to motivate their followers.
Those pockets of persecuted Christians (or Jews or Muslims or Hindus or ….) aren’t there because they looked around and researched and debated various doctrines and picked one that stood up to their most rigorous scrutiny: They’re their because that’s their identity. That’s the culture and the religion they were born into. Persecution makes the persecuted group cling more closely to its identity and traditions.
And that’s the way it’s been throughout most of history, in nearly every culture. The culture has its overwhelmingly dominant religion, with only a few outsider groups following their own traditions. Actual religious pluralism is actually a pretty modern (post-Enlightenment?) thing, at least in the West.
I’m a Christian, with pretty specific beliefs that I arrived at over years of study and prayer and thought. I was pretty sure I was an atheist for a while, and I studied the tenets of Jainism and other non-monotheistic religions that rang true to me in some ways, before ultimately coming back to Christianity (albeit one with quite a serious theological difference than the one I was raised in). I currently attend an Episcopalian church even though I don’t agree with 100% of their doctrine.
Aaaaaand MOST people I know, at every single church or temple I’ve ever been too, don’t think all that much about cosmology or theology. Church is a place where they feel they belong. Temple provides resources and does good work in their community. A thoughtful sermon in their pov illustrates how to be a good person more than it answers “why”.
I get along with these people! But it’s also why I’ll go for months or even a year without attending a church; instead, I’ll listen to sermons online and pray on my own. I feel guilty for skipping out on eucharist service so often, which is what usually motivates me to go back. But I’ve always been a bit of a loner, and the community aspect of church is the main draw for most.
By my estimate, more people have left churches over interpersonal conflict or not fitting in than because they had a serious doctrinal disagreement. This is the norm, not the exception.
Yeah, Becky seems really flippant about going to any religious service, even if they could accost her for her sexuality. I wouldn’t feel safe attending just any service myself.
There’s something about having the church you grew up in and trusted tell you that you ought not to exist that will shear off a whole bunch of reverence for religion in general.
I don’t see that happening. I’m with commenters from previous comics saying that if one of the two were to become agnostic or atheist, it would be Joyce, though I don’t see that happening at least in the timeline of this comic.
Agreed, I was making a joke. Becky doesn’t seem to need the…consistency of message and logical cohesion (?must be a better way to phrase that?) that Joyce does, which makes her apparently fine with gay-hating fundie church but keeps leading Joyce to these awkward internal conflics, as in panel 5.
Honestly though, changes in core beliefs take years, so yeah, not in the timeline of this comic.
Actually, I feel that Joyce very well could become an atheist in the timeline of this comic. I think its already been hinted at that she is struggling with faith issues, she’s just doing her best to ignore them. For instance, in the strip when Becky surprised Joyce in her room, Joyce was asking God to give her a sign, saying his voice had been very quiet recently. (Sorry, I don’t know how to create links).This phenomenon is something I’ve heard happens to some people as they are on the brink of leaving their faith. Becky turning up just then may have helped her stave of those doubts, but they are probably still there in the back of her mind. I don’t see why Willis would foreshadow something like that if he isn’t going to follow through on it eventually.
Sure, in real life changes in core beliefs like this do generally take years, but this is not real life. This is a comic, the main story line of which centres on a fundamentalist Christian having her beliefs challenged by her first experience of secular life. Not exploring her feelings towards deconverting would seem like a missed opportunity to me, when her changing many of her beliefs is a running theme of the comic. Besides, if she can have changed her deeply held beliefs about gay people in such a short space of time, I see no reason why she couldn’t become an atheist unusually quickly either.
I can’t speak to Joyce, given that this comic has done tons of things I never expected, but I know that my own experience with losing religion was a very quick process. I just looked at all the pomp and unnecessary ceremony of the Catholic Church that Is grown up with, the ridiculous “trying-too-hard” nature of evangelical churches my cousins were gravitating towards, and several other religions that I was introduced to through other people, and I got the creeping suspicion that it was all just pointless scrabbling for any sense of community that people would accept just about anything . . . which triggered my quick egress from religion almost entirely. So . . .
I’d be shocked if Joyce didn’t become atheist by the end – at least if the comic comes to a proper conclusion. Assuming that’s where she’s headed, it’s the necessary end of her character arc. You don’t leave that kind of thing hanging as “yeah, she’s still struggling with it, but she leaves the church some years later”.
It’s certainly possible she’ll go in a different direction, but some kind of resolution will be needed.
And frankly, Joyce’s faith is such that a break can’t really be a gradual process. It’s all tightly tied together in a way that makes it strong, but brittle. Undo a couple threads and the whole thing falls apart. She had a rant earlier on about how if evolution is true, everything she’s been taught is a lie. Evolution->no Adam and Eve -> no Original Sin
Many think the reverse is more likely: Becky seems flexible in her religion, while Joyce is rigid, and also semi-autobiographical of Willis. Which leads to athesit Joyce.
In January of 2016, I went on record to a friend of mine as predicting that, by the end of 2017, Joyce would verbally express doubt that God exists. This late in the year it’s a bit of a long shot, but after Joyce’s “But I’m not sure I felt any God in it” today, I’d say the window is still quite open.
Eh, I think Becky may well be more religious than Joyce in the future. Becky has a personal relationship with God that doesn’t NEED structure the way Joyce does–which isn’t a bad thing but it is different.
These people are so oblivious. The only reason some churches use electric guitars is to make their services more appealing to the youth. They’re being manipulated.
Yeah, and the pipe organs and stained glass are another manipulation, just an old one. The reverence of saints is a manipulation. Adopting and then dumping the doctrine of Purgatory were manipulations. Celebrating Christmas, and moving its date from April to December were manipulations.
The manipulations that succeed get passed on to subsequent generations.
You really think the youth are into stained glass windows and pipe organs these days? I kinda doubt they ever were. Kids like joyful revelry, and these Evangelical churches pile it on to lure them in.
They told my mother it was an art camp. It was a front for a cult that made us come up and pray in front of a fire near the stage. I was TERRIFIED of fire at that age (I was 5 or 6) and I came home unable to speak because I was freaked the fuck out. After two of those ‘camp days’ my friend told her what was going on. Needless to say, I did not go back. My mother also barged in one day while they were doing their cult-y sing along and yelled at them in front of the kids that they didn’t know what the hell they were talking about.
Also, regarding their ‘art camp’ – they had our parents drops us off in an art room and then took us to their stage/alter thing and then when they were done sermonizing, they took us back to the art room and gave us little 10 minute crafts to do like painting on a pot or covering rocks with glitter so we could show our parents stuff we made when they picked us up, none the wiser.
No these days, no. At least, I don’t think many are.
What I’m suggesting is that stained glass was originally adopted as a manipulation. Pipe organs were originally adopted as a manipulation. Each religious tradition is an accumulation of manipulations that worked in their time. They seem profound or pompous now. But when they were new there were old codgers and codgeuses shaking their heads and lamenting that the traditional crust of stuff they were used to and thought was inherent was getting obscured by a crust of newfangled gimcrackery.
There was a time when instrumental music- anything other than Gregorian chant, really- was newfangled heresy that was destroying real religion in order to give the unwashed masses sinful delights.
At least, according to the one class I took on music appreciation. Admittedly that was 8 years ago at this point.
Youth are far from the only demographic that organisations try (and often succeed) in manipulating. I imagine the more formal and traditional forms of worship appeal more to a more mature audience.
These people are so oblivious. The only reason some companies use sugar is to make their beverages more appealing to the tongue. They’re being manipulated.
They only can make the drinks so cheap because the government subsidizes it twice! Sugar is rare in nature so humans have only one mechanism to deal with too much sugar! It’s giving us all diabetes!
Don’t forget the sugar quotas that end up subsidizing it a second time. Why else would fast food places and restaurants be able to add massive cups of pop to meals for almost no extra expense?
If you order just a burger and fries, the cashier will always ask you if you are sure. Because the pop is often free at that point.
The weatherman says ‘rocky mountain high’.
The weather will be better by and by.
The thunderclouds will leave and there’ll be rainbows in the sky…
Rocky mountain hiiiiIIIIiiigh—
Well… At the buzzer, I’m still scoring Jacob higher than Joyce for this one, with Becky throwing a last-second shot in at the 0:01 mark.
He put in a real effort to try to make Joyce feel at home (at, unquestionably, the cost of his own full attention to taking part in the service), took doctrinal considerations into account for Becky (which, tbh, he didn’t really have to- as we can see here). And Joyce is still ‘not feeling God’s presence’ because it wasn’t her usual Six Flags Over Jesus Wiggles concert dealie.
(Becky’s off to the side Beckying, so there’s really not much to say about that.)
Rather than a preference of religious service I kind of wonder if this is Becky’s way of being supportive of Joyce? Sort of her subtle, you don’t have to force yourself to like this on my account I know you like the guitars I’ll also like the guitars. Like when Joyce forced herself to go to the sushi place despite not liking that kind of thing because Becky had expressed an interest and Becky is like, ‘c’mon you don’t have to do that’ and Joyce is sort of punishing herself for not supporting Becky immediately and for ever believing that anything Becky was was wrong (and possibly for not loving Becky back in a romantic way). So she’s trying to make up for it, also with like, ‘I can’t talk about how crappy my family is because yours is worse’ etc. And Becky is trying to offset that and be a good friend in her own way.
Y’know, I kinda understand what Joyce means? But in a way that I’m sure would give us an amazing face. I grew up Lutheran, went to church for like fifteen solid years nearly every Sunday, but the first time I could really say I experienced anything that resonated as divine to me was at my first Beltane.
I know for her it comes from being used to a certain kind of worship, but I think what I’m getting at is, the right kind of ambiance is important? And you can’t really, like, fake that if you’re not feeling it. Hopefully she eventually finds that perfect place with the right ambiance but also doctrine that’s not bigoted and terrible.
Definitely. Jacob certainly seems to find the church satisfying — but pomp and ceremony aren’t for everyone. Sounds like she might be better off in a Unitarian church, those are in my experience fairly small and cozy.
Of course you didn’t, Joyce. Of course you didn’t. You want your god to be personal, to speak to you on your level. You want your god to be a being that you feel you can speak to.
And those old traditional sermons do not do that. They are born from a time when god most certainly were not meant to speak to one personally. It was meant as a display of show, a display of how much better god (and his representatives on earth) is. They were born of a time when people were meant to be reminded how low they were compared to god.
And sure, the actual message has now changed (quite a lot, in this particular case)… But when there is such a disparity of the message and of the display of the messenger, then yeah, it’s hard to see the god in it. It stands out like a badly played chord.
So yeah, you cannot see any god in this dressing…
…But of course, as Jacob noted, there wasn’t really much god in your dressing either. Sure, it felt uplifting and personal and relatable; but all of this was a a careful construct to make you more suggestible to the dark, dark teachings underneath. When outright intimidation no longer works, evil tends to find other ways around instead.
So trapped between a great message with an outdated setting, and a great setting with an evil message, there is really only thing for you to do at this point, Joyce:
I’d prefer to avoid being acerbic here, but just because Joyce didn’t like it, doesn’t mean that the pomp and majesty of the Catholic or Anglican style churches aren’t for anyone.
One might find that same thing applied to Wicca not being for everyone either, I suspect Joyce would find some of Wicca’s teachings to fall as flat as the Episcopalian church’s ceremony did.
With regards to ‘being reminded of how low they were’, and ‘being unable to see god in the dressing’… I’m just going to say you’re wrong, your opinion is highly subjective, and leave it there, because there’s nothing constructive that can come from anything more.
The first thing that EmpNor said was acknowledging the kind of God/face of God Joyce is looking to find. different ppl connect with different things and recognise those things in different places.
Ye they were harsh. but fuck it. what you wanted to be noted was noted, just not in a way you wanted to recognise it.
“With regards to ‘being reminded of how low they were’, and ‘being unable to see god in the dressing’… I’m just going to say you’re wrong, your opinion is highly subjective, and leave it there, because there’s nothing constructive that can come from anything more.”
Interesting, how I am apparently both wrong -and- really subjective at the same time; seeing as when something is subjective, then it is not a matter of objective facts.
Nope, let’s face it. You just made an eloquent way of saying “I think you’re wrong, but I’m not going to actually offer any arguments for why you’re wrong, I’ll just claim it and then try and run away from any actual discussion”; which frankly is the most boring type of comment.
And for the record, the history of the catholic church, whose traditions this church is still inspired from, suggests that I am most certainly right. Throughout the middle ages, they ruled (sometimes directly, often indirectly) through intimidation and fear. Do not for a second doubt that the pomp of these ceremonies were made with this in mind. Heck, “I’m catholic, so I constantly feel guilty” is still a major trope in entertainment.
You can rule by intimidation and fear without pomp and ceremony. And you can have pomp and ceremony without intimidation and fear. Your argument doesn’t stand up.
Since I never said one couldn’t, I don’t understand what your response is meant to prove. One can do many things in many ways, after all.
I just stated that the middle ages catholic church -did- rule by intimidation and fear and that they in particular did use pomp and ceremony as part of it.
I’m honestly stumped as to what part of this is in any way a controversial statement.
That’s not the controversial part of it. People are interpreting this as you saying that therefore the pomp and ceremony of the Catholic Church, and similar churches, are fundamentally bad, or, as you put it, “outdated”. Which is simply put, not true.
Yeah, one could interpret it that way, and heck, I can see a bit why they did; I’ll admit that much.
But here’s what you’re missing: I didn’t originally call it fundamentally/inherently outdated. I called it outdated in that it now clashes with the actual message that Jacob’s church delivered. It’s outdated for people used to modern settings, such as Joyce.
And by the way, I also ragged on about how Joyce’s preferred setting turned out to be a trap for insidiously putting in more evil messages. And as has been shown, that was indeed a setting that also did rule by intimidation and fear, yet without pomp and ceremony. So do not assume I’m not aware of this.
And frankly, I do very strongly believe that organised religion -is- pretty damn outdated, no matter the setting. That’s why I did (jokingly, by the way) suggest Wicca to Joyce; because of how it’s nowhere near as organised. (I mean, I’m not a great fan of religion in general, but organised religion just takes the cake.)
And yet there are modern people who do react well to both the message and the setting of church’s like Jacob. I’m not sure it’s any actual conflict between message and setting, but just between what Joyce has been taught/indoctrinated worship is supposed to be like and what this was.
You way overestimate the power of the church at that time. The pope had very little power in the Middle Ages. It took weeks to send a message from Rome to London and the nearest guy with a small army ruled.
Stained glass is a durable art form, absent bombs and sacking of cities. It portrays doctrine in symbolic terms that directly address deep feelings and are accessible to illiterates. Any almost every one was illiterate.
Oppression in the Middle Ages was much more to do with your local sword wielding man than a church you visited twice a year. An all powerful pope is a Protestant boogie man even though Protestant ruler were not at all different from catholic ones.
For example, the Spanish Inquisition was much more a Spanish thing than enforced by Rome and based on internal matters. English monarchs were just as harsh but controlled their history better. Most of my ancestors were oppressed by powerful civil rulers not stained glass.
It’s extremely common in the modern view of the Church to see the Catholic Church, and by extension the churches that are closely related to it, portrayed as a bully out mostly to reinforce feudal behavior and extract their tithe from the peasantry. There’s certainly an element of truth to that, I’m not about to debate it, but a few things are worth noting:
First, of course, the ceremonies of the modern Catholic church are not those practiced a thousand years ago. The Holy See has reformed itself, first in the Counter-Reformation, and then over the past few centuries through more social means.
Second, the Church was run by priests. While today that image might bring to mind televangelists and pedophiles, among more friendly concepts, the Church was not exclusively an oppressive organization, and was a mediator between lord and subject. Not to mention they also kept records, and the priests themselves often knew the most medicine in villages, serving as healers when necessary.
Third and finally, the ceremonies of the Catholic Church weren’t fabricated to enslave and belittle those who attended mass — most evolved from the ceremony that early Christians constructed, growing more elaborate as time went on.
For sure the last point is bunkus. Given the initial scattering of Christians after Jerusalem was sacked in 70 AD, the subsequent fragmentation of culture as they went underground over hundreds of years, and the eventual bloody consolidation as various sects were killed off by the dominant strain, it’s pretty unlikely there was anything like “early christian ceremonies” left by even the 500s, let alone modern times.
I’m not saying they resemble or even really descend from the original rites, they’ve been modified past any of that. I’m saying that the Pope didn’t one day say “How can I get more grain out of these idiots?” and then devised a whole new ceremony to make them feel worthless.
“Considering some of the popes that’s been in the vatican over the centuries, I honestly would not be surprised if one of them did do exactly that.”
This, so much. Pope Francis is warm and cuddly, but don’t forget that his (distant) predecessors led troops into battle, called Crusades, and engaged in nepotism and theft and murder—-the list goes on. They actually ruled significant swathes of land for a good period of time, they were called the Papal States.
“most evolved from the ceremony that early Christians constructed, growing more elaborate as time went on.” I guess I interpreted this to mean the rites were descended from the original rites.
Indulgences were almost exactly “How can I get more grain out of these idiots?” And that was far from the only invention. There were popes that sought to increase the power of the church through any means necessary, both through manipulation of kings and politics, and by manipulating the masses.
What village priests did was not necessarily what the current pope wanted, communications being what they were.
Even what individual monasteries did didn’t have necessarily a relation with what the current pope wanted.
Religion has always been linked with power structures and has been both: A way to legitimize rule and a way to organize the people who where unhappy about the current rule.
Generally speaking, the “sale of indulgences” was done by local priests or a man with a particular title whose job it was to take slips from Rome to tell them their donation above their tithe was received. This reached a head during the rebuilding of Saint Peter’s Basilica where a donation to it granted you an indulgence.
It’s a construction of later years that conflated the metaphysical concept of an indulgence with the indulgence slips, mostly outside the Catholic Church. Indulgences themselves are metaphysical rewards for good works and prayer beyond what you’re just supposed to do as a Catholic at the bare minimum. For example, praying the rosary in a group grants an indulgence, or donating to the building of a new church or the repairing of an old.
“Religion has always been linked with power structures and has been both: A way to legitimize rule and a way to organize the people who where unhappy about the current rule.”
I think this is my exact problem with organized religion, because the organization part, by necessity of maintaining itself despite its size, eventually ends up eating some of the actual beliefs the religion supposedly holds.
Frankly I disagree with your interpretation of the formality and ceremony of Catholic style worship. It’s not that the splendor reminds people how “low” they are compared to God. The splendor shows devotion to God, because it is built and put forth in his honor, for his glory.
It’s the same thing. Of course the splendor is meant to inspire a sense of awe and wonder. That is the entire basis of devotion to God in the first place.
Yes, Emperor Norton, all 1800 years of the Catholic Church are people trying to keep the man down and not in any way actually practice the faith themselves. You’re sounding a bit like Joyce here.
This storyline has got me contemplating over which religious services I should attend. I’m a lifelong – though lapsed – Catholic who’s used to standing, kneeling, and traditional hymn singing. But I’m looking for something more progressive without sacrificing that familiarity (no electric guitars, exuberant, jumping ministers, and the like).
Yup, lots of shared tradition between the two, at least in general as individual churches of course vary.
Honestly in my experience– and my experience is pretty limited, so take this as you will– electric guitars, exuberant, jumping ministers don’t actually seem to skew in the direction of more progressive churches anyway.
Episcopalian is the American branch of the Anglican religion, and surprisingly is the most liberal branch thereof. Homosexual and Trans individuals are equals and allowed to marry, and more focus is paid to preventing unwanted pregnancy than lambasting abortion or those that receive it. Liturgy is from the King James, like the Anglican church, which is a pretty decent translation. If you’re seeking something similar to the Catholic Church but more progressive, the Episcopalian church is an excellent choice. Be warned, there is a theological dispute over the communion which is probably worth looking up and reading over it — unless you have a degree in divinities it might not be decipherable, but it may be worth knowing.
Other branches of the Anglican Communion are not all so liberal. The Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney has just donated a million dollars to a publicity campaign attempting to persuade Australians to vote against allowing same-sex marriage and marriages of intersexed and trans people in a big advisory mail-in survey we are doing.
There have been a number of recent splits and schisms within the Episcopal church in the US over various LGBT issues – marriage and the ordination of gay bishops in particular.
Yes, Episcopalian has the “bells and smells”, that is, the high stylish ceremony that you dig from Catholicism.
There are also Liberal Catholics, who really take to heart Jesus’s messages of social justice and improving the world.
The Episcopal church is often described as “Catholic Lite”. I actually met the Reverend of the one in our town at the Women’s March this past January. Neat lady.
Lutheran Evangelical is the most liberal of the three Lutheran denominations in we are of in the US. Last o checked most Lutheran churches try to be apolitical. And my home church (which is admittedly LCMS, not Evangelical) had formal, semi-final, and casual services at around 8, 9:30, and 11 respectively.
So I would suggest choosing your denomination based on how progressive you want it to be and to choose your specific church based on how formal you want it to be.
I mean… both are important, Jacob, and she shouldn’t have to choose. (I think this is a big part of why my parents decided they weren’t fans of organized religions as they both had bad experiences of being told that the way they experienced spirituality wasn’t the ‘right’ way).
I kind of get where she’s coming from. I attended Catholic churches for the most part, and while I’m not religious, I always found the services fine.
However, any time I attended an evangelical church with all the things Joyce associates with church, I experienced so much secondhand embarrassment that it actually hurt. All the jumping around and singing and crying and melodrama and Too Much Enthusiasm. I’m genuinely repulsed by those churches because some little voice in my head is just screaming “Do you people have no sense of propriety?”
So I get where she’s coming from. It’s such a different experience it can be an unwelcome shock.
I’m Episcopalian, (Jacob’s church!) and yeah, Evangelical churches creep me out almost as much as the ones that handle snakes, and we had both in my state before I moved. But I can imagine the culture shock the other way — “What’s all this staid nonsense? Where are the electric guitars?” indeed!
I like to imagine evangelical churches like the Triple Rock Baptist Church from the Blues Brothers. Every so often I wonder how off my imagination is, but ultimately decide from what I glean that I like my imagined version better.
My Catholic School tried to mix the ceremony of the Mass with the energy of an evangelical church because of all the elementary kids and having waaaaaaaaay more Protestants in attendance than Catholics. It was always BRAND NEW HYMNS (TM) that were cribbed from any of the dozens of local Baptist churchs, and I was stuck in the choir because I enjoyed singing and mentioned it in earshot of the principal. It was… not fun to do that every Wednesday.
And then the person directing the music at the school took over directing music at the church and I lapsed because I was done with that when I graduated.
My Catholic School very much Did Not Do That. Prayers and hymns were the proper traditional ones, etc. However, my nuns were perfectly wonderful women, so I have no idea what this whole “fear of Catholic nuns” thing is. The worst punishment I ever got was having to copy a page out of the dictionary when I misbehaved. (It says something that I had a rather large vocabulary by the time I was eight)
I didn’t even get nuns. We had one nun who came around for canned food. I wish I could’ve gotten a “Copy the dictionary page” punishment, instead I got “We’re going to threaten to expel you without informing your parents.”
The fact that they have guitars would actually make me less likely to want to attend a church like Joyce’s, since I can’t stand Christian Rock music. Really I have no desire to attend even a more inclusive church, since I’m an atheist and I can think of lots of better ways to spend my Sunday mornings. So I guess that means my distaste for fundie churches is so low it’s in the negatives.
It’s like that Sliders episode where they finally get home, look at a newspaper, see all the things that have changed since they left, decide they’re in the wrong universe, and leave.
…..
I’m the only one who remembers Sliders as anything other than miniburgers, aren’t I?
I’m not sure what defines Death Metal, in the first place. I just know there’s a nebulous concept of “Metal”, and that Nightwish is a band that frequently does it.
hahaha. yeah. i remember that. it was part of my soft teenage rebellion (“i’d rebel, but it would make my parents mad!“ suited me quite a lot ) to listen to christian metal just because my mum thought that all metal bands bite off the heads of live bats… (where does one get this notion?!)… one of the bands sang in portuguese i think, and the line i remember (because this and similar ones got screamed a lot) was “massacre a Lucifer“. i felt so badass as a christian youth to listen to that…
Wait, wait, I want to go back to Carla and Amber! The friends I ship!
Probably my only peeve with this comic is that when a chapter has multiple threads, there aren’t enough posts consecutively per thread. I think it gets too choppy at times.
That’s my only critique, tho; overall this is one of my favorite webcomics.
I agree, though it doesn’t bother me as much when I’m enjoying all the plot lines and characters, like with the recent comics. Plus, I kind of like the feel that there’s so much going on in their world, so it’s a tradeoff for me.
The main issue I have with the idea of God answering prayers is that either A. if God did answer Lesbian prayers then presumably God allowed Blaine to abuse Amber and her mom knowing it would turn Amber into a superhero or B. God didn’t answer any of the prayers the girls Ryan attacked
Also it takes a little bit away of what Amber did because God made it happen
No, all of that is perfectly valid. This is an issue that’s been a big part of religion for thousands of years. The debate about how a just and benevolent God can allow evil to happen, weighed against free will and so on.
What Joyce and I assume Becky are looking for is a liberal denomination Hot Worship church. I learned about Hot Worship a few years back when I did a UU seminar on adjusting your presentation for your congregation, and that younger congregations preferred the Hot Worship style over talkier services with traditional hymns.
It was a complete waste of time for our church as our liturgy does not lend itself to either style of worship, although when we had a songwriter as part of the congregation we did get a few Pagan hymns to sing.
Lookin’ for some hot worship baby this evenin’
I need some hot worship baby tonight
I want some hot worship baby this evenin’
Gotta have some hot worship
Gotta have God’s love tonight
Guitars aside, Becky’s character development and resulting attitude about the connection between her sexuality and faith are highly, highly relateable. I totally understand if people are right in guessing that she’s sticking around the church for Joyce’s sake, but, as isolating as it can feel, queer Christian people exist and it’s nice to see such a character doing so unapologetically!
Nice pun, and I agree! I’ve always thought it’s really cool to see Becky and Joyce wrestle with their faith and still find value in it. I grew up in a similar situation (I’m also queer) and while I still value Christianity, I’m mostly Wiccan now. So seeing a storyline where someone is able to come out of a Fundamentalist upbringing and not completely lose or change their faith is…nice. I’m kinda jealous in a way. XD
As someone who is atheist, and understands that religion is based on faith in a higher power, this strip is interesting to me: I’ve always thought that faith is based on a personal belief in a religion’s teachings and tenets. I didn’t expect it to be this… tactile? Like, a change in physical style of worship be this unsettling, or that it will cause such a big disconnect (as in Joyce’s words, “But I’m not sure I felt any God in it”). The differences in beliefs and its interpretation I understand, this not so much.
Maybe you could think of it like school? You probably have a pretty set idea of what school is like based on your own experiences. If you experienced something vastly different, like from another culture or just a different approach, it might not feel “like school,” even though you might learn something in each environment.
Nah, it’s not personal belief in teachings and tenants, there are tons of people who don’t actually believe (i.e. don’t follow) the core beliefs of their religions.
It’s much more tribalism and habituation than genuine belief, imo.
I’m filing it generally with Joyce’s extreme pickiness about food, for instance. She has to have things just-so, in general, or it’s wrong and icky- this would just be an extension of that.
I mean…yes? But tribalism and pickiness don’t quite fit. There’s a very strong emphasis on “feeling” the spirit of God in Protestantism, and that feeling is evoked in different ways for different churches. Contemporary churches like Joyce’s train their congregants to “feel” God’s presence during repetitive guitar choruses. It’s not just Joyce’s picky preference; this is an actual thing. They orchestrate the entire sermon and its emotional beats so that dimmed lights + guitar chorus at the 3/4 mark = salvation and feeling God. (Visit that sort of church, and you’ll notice that right after the sermon, they do this and call people forward to “respond to God’s voice in your heart” — i.e., get saved and join the church.) Picture those churches in movies: someone with their hand tossed in the air, a pastor shouting “can I get an amen,” people swaying back and forth, etc.
Other churches, like Joseph’s, focus on congregants responding to set rituals. They tend to have Books of Days and calendar emphasis and the schedule of events posted on a wooden board at the front. And God is supposed to physically manifest in these rituals. (Yes. That means the bread and wine are actually God. That’s all I know, I don’t know why.) Rituals are a different emphasis than “the spirit of God moving through you.” Those congregants don’t expect sweeping feelings because they associate their faith with acts of subservience and devotion.
Soooo…yeah, it’s tribalism. But it’s also genuine religious belief about what the experience of God should feel like — and who God is. Fundamentalist God is crazy-possessive and judgey, but from an insider’s perspective, he’s just really passionately loving. You can tell because your heart gets swooshy when they play guitar! And ritual-based churches have a God who is pretty accepting of other people — as long as they demonstrate their devotion.
SO MANY DISCLAIMERS. I’ve been out of the church game for a while, and I don’t mean to sound like a cynic. My trajectory was just kinda similar to Joyce’s, so I remember the brain-bending bits here.
Eeesh, I don’t think I can delete this. Disclaimer disclaimer: this entirely reflects my church experience (contemporary and fundamentalist churches, with only slight dabbling in Episcopalian congregations later). And I don’t know as much about ritual churches because, again, I barely touched them before running for agnosticism.
I don’t mean any disrespect to people who still go to either of these types of churches or love them!! You can absolutely tell me I’m an idiot and I’ll totally get it! The emotional beats + guitar solo thing, though — that template was discussed in planning meetings at churches I attended, though in nicer terms, so it exists.
The older “traditional” versions were developed to do the same thing, just to a different audience with different expectations and responses. Often they’ve now become frozen copies of the originals that wouldn’t get the same responses even back in the original setting.
That earlier reply should’ve been @Liz. This one’s @thejeff. I wouldn’t say “frozen copies.” When a traditional liturgical service is conducted as specified in the book, it kind of…I can’t explain it clearly. The outer world drops away. The chatter in my head stops. I can think about one thing at a time. I leave the service calm and refreshed, but thoughtful.
I was thinking this. Despite having grown up in tiny three-family Baptist churches that reflected Joyce’s parents’ views than anything else, I . . . felt the presence of God, I guess in Joyce’s parlance, in liturgical ritual more than any other church I’d ever been to. I get that to other people, other rituals (like guitars and clapping) are more like it, but the meditative feel of an Episcopal service was so much more what I needed then.
Which is why I said tribalism *and* habituation :p
I get the awkwardness of discussing this as an outsider, there were a bunch of strips in this church storyline where I didn’t say anything because I couldn’t express how gross and predatory I find religion without sounding like a bile-spewing monster.
Discussing it as an expat feels a little weird, too. I still have that inside line…went to a Bible college, oh hey. A lot of us queer kids tried to become Bible scholars because they promised us the Bible was more accepting in Hebrew and Greek. I didn’t last long. But just because I no longer think it’s viable doesn’t mean I want to hurt anyone who HAS found a way to believe.
OH geez, this was discussed with so much more nuance and compassion than I used up above. Okay, so please if you’re reading my stuff, scroll to the top of the page, because that’s where people who actually still believe are discussing how they came to terms with this, and that’s way more relevant. I’m sorry. Any way my stuff can be deleted?
Honestly, it sounds like conditioning the congregation to (only) experience “ecstatic” and/or euphoric mood-states in a specific, communal, and most importantly, church-supplied and controlled form. They are selling a (natural, emotional) high.
Another funny thing is that you can be intensely spiritual, you feel “God” in certain scenarios/circumstances,without any problem of it being tied to any religious doctrine. I personally believe in a higher power very strongly, because it’s something I’ve felt . But to me, that sensation is… beyond what language can accurately portray. So I have a mild distaste for the way religion on the whole tries to homogenize such feelings into a singular narrative.
Yes it’s tactile. All the ceremony (whether scepters or guitars) is in service to that tactility. And all the theology is an attempt to make it reasonable.
No, you’re right; at least, that’s what it’s supposed to be. But for many people, the tactile relationship is all it is. Which makes it just kind of fall apart later.
When deeply religious people like Joyce become atheists they might have a mental break down.
It doesn’t happen often, but it dose happen, and when your entire view of reality breaks apart it’s not good for your mental health.
I’m actually really glad that Joyce is heading toward atheism. I definitely get where you’re coming from — the mental collapse can suck. But the soul-crushing feeling from “the God I love hates everyone I love” already broke Joyce, and she survived. As long as Joyce keeps resolutely choosing the people she loves and refusing to accept any religion that claims they don’t deserve that love, I think she’ll be okay.
You know, I really just think she needs to think Becky. If Atheism works for a person, excellent, but it’s clear that God is an incredibly important concept in Joyce’s life. I myself cannot stand organised religion. I am an incredibly spiritual person, however. I am also a queerberry bush. If someone has grown up loving God – not having the who idea shoved down your throat – I don’t see why one would have the need to either be staunchly religious or atheistic, when there are so many gradients in between. I just hope she can identify with the same thought process as Becky: “God loves me whoever I am, and my faith does not have to dictate every other thing I believe.”
It may take some doing, but if Becks has managed it with her upbringing, her dad, and generally all the shit she’s been through, I’m sure Joyce can find her own way too.
I’m defs not saying a person can’t be happy or wonderful without faith, and I respect everyone’s beliefs so long as they don’t hurt anyone else, I just don’t think Joyce would make that jump.
*Sigh* It’s worser than we thought, it’s not the atmosphere of the location it’s the fact the her world view and faith have token heavy hits and the Ironic thing in all of Joyce’s development through out DoA the real challeng to her faith didn’t come from People who questioned her belief but those who claimed to carry the same beliefs as her like Ryan or Becky’s Dad or her family and people from her home church who was afraid of her for sticking up for Beck. They’re the sorce of all her trama.
The way Becky takes ownership of her religious worship is admirable. Someday I hope to be more like that, although it’s hard when your parents try to push things on to you, and you just rebel against it out of spite.
Yeah, I’m with God. I love Becky no matter what too.
Again, I’m really impressed by Joyce. This was a Big Deal for her, it was strange and weird and might mean she’s going to hell – but she still went through with it!
“Sushi” is just the rolled rice wrapped in seaweed- not really anything there to like or dislike, IMO. There’s all sorts of options for toppings and fillings, from veggies to chicken. Can’t comment on the difficulty of finding them though.
Now all I can think of is their last time shown in church together, back in La Porte.
We saw Hank witness, and reject, some of the problematic behavior by the grownups there. Joyce needed him and he really came through.
And Becky had no problem being there. Any of that crap she witnessed just rolled off her back, right down to the Best Communion Ever.
But at some point Becky still has her faith (in a God who answers lesbian prayers), and her best friend, and wants to go to a church that includes both.
I don’t think it rolled off her back. Becky’s damn good at not showing her pain. “Nobody likes a Debby Downer”.
And she was real happy to get out there early.
She was there for Joyce and that made it completely worth it, but I don’t think it was easy.
Good point. We didn’t see a lot of Becky’s interactions at that church service aside from her taking communion.
The biggest conflicts we saw were Joyce, and then Hank (on Becky’s & Joyce’s behalfs). Did more happen to Becky off-panel back in La Porte we’ll find out about later?
I agree. Using “that” would be putting emphasis on how inclusive they were to Becky, and that just hasn’t been very much demonstrated. I think “that’s” is more appropriate and reads better here.
From a strictly technical point of view, they don’t always. I’d even say that in Europe, most churches don’t mix well with anything amplified, as persuaded as clergy may be to use money to put PA in any fucking basilic, cathedral or abbey. Hell, some don’t even mix well with polyphony, let alone instruments…
This could actually be a bigger crisis of faith than she’s letting on. For comparison with Joyce’s old church, last time she was there, she had trouble feeling a god in that too.
As an atheist, I’m very curious about this “feeling God” that Joyce experiences in a setting that’s comfortable for her. Like I literally cannot imagine what that is like. Whenever I’ve been in a religious setting and had to quietly concentrate, all I’ve “felt” is some boredom and the certainty of death.
So, I’m a Christian, and I’ve been to a few churches that are rather similar in style to Joyce’s. Probably the first thing that’s important to note about churches like Joyce’s is that there is almost no time in the service where people can actually “quietly concentrate”. There’s a bunch of songs, the worship leader prays emphatically with someone playing the guitar quietly in the background, more songs, a sermon, then some more songs after that. There’s very few still, quiet moments.
My personal view on this is that most of what Joyce believes to be “feeling God” is actually her getting a rush from the worship and the general atmosphere of loud, energetic music and singing. In the churches like this that I’ve been to, often the pastor or the worship leader will say things like “I can feel that God is very present here right now” or “The Spirit is working here”. To take a leaf out of Joyce’s parents’ book, this sort of worship “promotes a culture” of interpreting any excitement or rush during church as a feeling from God, even when it probably isn’t.
So when you take someone who’s been taught this like Joyce out of that space and put her in a church like Jacob’s, where there’s no loud singing or music, people don’t throw their hands up in the air, the singers don’t bounce around on a stage, she’s not going to be feeling any of that rush that her church has taught her is “feeling God”. It’s then really easy for her to misinterpret this lack of excitement and fervent energy as “not feeling any God in it”.
So basically, most of what Joyce thinks is “feeling God” is probably not actually feeling God, but is more likely her getting hyped up by loud drums and a bunch of electric guitars.
Completely agree… and that’s kinda the way she always is when she’s most Christian-y. “High on Christ”, like what she said back when she and Sarah first met.
When I was younger I experienced the phenomenon, but frankly it was rarely in church. I would reach out with my senses, feel what felt like an omnipresent and benevolent entity, and figured that proved God for me. Because I could feel what I thought was their presence.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Might be a weird psychological left-over or quirk from our evolution. But that’s my best attempt at explaining it.
But like you said Joyce isn’t comfortable enough (I think the recent trauma pile hasn’t help.) And who knows what ‘Feeling God’ is for her. It could be participating in an enthusiastic and safe group activity with people she feels are safe.
(Also I don’t talk to a lot of other Christians *cough* I’m queer *cough* so I couldn’t give you anything more than anecdotal stuff, so IDK about other church-going types.)
I actually read a really interesting article on Cracked.com yesterday about this very thing. It was written by a “lapsed” Christian who was talking about the sense of faith and connectedness she used to feel as a member of a congregation, and how she really misses it even though she’s stopped believing in the actual dogma of the church. It makes me wonder if “spirituality” is more about a sense of certainty about one’s place in not just the Universe, but as a meaningful, integral part of your community. That you MATTER.
I wouldn’t really say I believe, but I would say I experience a sense of spirituality. Could be that I@m mistaken things but for me it’s this overwhelming sense of awe at the scale and complexity of existence, and just like, how small I am compared to it and how marvelous it all is.
Weirdly, I grew up a lot like Joyce (except her church would have been the “hippie church” with the music and worship leader), and I enjoyed church a lot for the community. But I “feel” God in normal, everyday life, even though I don’t really agree with the religion I grew up in? And talk to him all the time in my head. It’s maybe what an imaginary friend feels like to a kid (and I had those too, only once), but it is very comforting in times of stress to be able to “say” whatever I want to say and not be misunderstood and talk through my issues and ask for help. Don’t know if that explains anything at all!
The thing I used to feel in church when I was little that I identified with as God is closest to the thing I feel most reliably now when I look at the ocean, the stars in the night sky, or across the mountains. A sense of awe, delight, comfort, inclusion, fortune, gratefulness, humility, and that there is something much greater than me that I am only glimpsing a tiny fraction of. I would call both a spiritual feeling. I am a loose “panentheist” by my best reckoning. I know there have been a few articles about how a spiritual feeling might be the result of certain patterns activating in the brain, if you’re interested in neuropsych.
It’s rare, but I totally get Joyce on this one. I was raised Catholic and don’t believe the strict dogma anymore… but I still attend Mass once in a while because I get that sense of God there, even though I disagree with some Catholic beliefs. (I am pretty stoked about Pope Francis, though.)
I’m atheist too, but I’ve felt a ‘holy’ kind of feeling in two distinct settings:
1. Singing in a group of people when everything sounds right. It may not be what’s written in the music, but when the group is flowing together and everything is good, there’s a soul-deep connection and unity that I can easily see as being described as divine. I personally believe it’s why music is such a large part of church and why people who are lonely and looking for that connection or are used to that connection from birth find it really hard to leave churches. At least one reason why.
2. Dancing. When you’ve hit that sweet spot of warmed-up, your emotions are flowing freely, the music is speaking to you and thrumming through your veins, that too feels like I am ascending to a higher plane of existence. I do theatrical and fusion-style dance, and it doesn’t matter to me what kind of music I’m using as long as I feel it beating in my chest instead of the speakers. It feels RIGHT in an overwhelming and kind of addictive way, which when translated to a religious setting is again another reason why I think people stay. There’s something very powerful about having a biomechanical affirmation of your belief.
I did get the religious feeling one time when listening to a religious person. It was the Bishop Spong, who was booted from his church for performing a gay marriage, but afterwards explained himself so well that many of his peers regretted their decision. Something about his talk or his demeanor–which was calm, understanding, and wise-feeling–felt like dropping stones into the energy around my organs, passing through and yet changing them in ways that made me realize things I’d never given thought to before. It was quiet compared to the other experiences, but still profound.
Faith is personal so whatever or whoever you want or don’t want to believe in and what way you do or don’t do it should be up to you, just remember to keep an open mind and to not push people away by their own faiths.
This is probably the first time that I suspect that the alt-text and Becky together were expressing something fundamental about Willis’s feelings on a matter!
Jacob is being really unfair here. He’s presenting Joyce with a false dichotomy, as though she only gets to choose between her old church and his church, and seems to be trying to invalidate her opinions about his church with emotional blackmail, drawing in the issue of Becky when Joyce just seems to miss the vibrancy and energy of her old churchgoing experience.
Eh, he’s not like FORCING her to choose or attend one or the other. He’s having a discussion with her about her background and HIS OWN CHOICE to attend this church, aknowledging her complaints with the ritual and structure while pointing out its positive merits. I don’t see where he’s presenting at as a “one or the other” dichotomy, he’s accepting her criticism of this ONE and, in turn, pointing out a merit that her old church doesn’t bring
Another thing that I think is of value to remember is that Jacob and Joyce formed a connection debating religion. So I feel like Jacob gently pushing her to consider other things and broadening her horizons is in keeping with how they have been together, rather than a change.
I mean he isn’t really talking about his choice and he isn’t simply bringing up another merit, he specifically puts it as more important not “I find it important” or something. Then again I’m not Christian and never have been so I don’t know, maybe that’s normal for their debating to try and make things objective.
No, I agree with Nobody. I think they’re both valid interpretations, but it just feels a little guilt-trippy. I doubt Jacob intended it that way, but it sort of comes off as “well, you didn’t like my church, so that means you only like homophobic churches.”
He also kind of positions himself as defending Becky from Joyce’s presumed homophobia, which is good of him, and given Jacob’s character, no doubt is intended in the best possible way, but it’s still something Becky didn’t ask for. I’m a queer atheist/pagan from an ex-Catholic family, and I think if I was Becky in this scenario, I’d be a little miffed at him.
Oh yeah, it took me a wile to wash the majority of that catholic guilt away so I could be me. Sometimes I still find it in hard to reach places though…
Thing is, it’s not a choice between Episcopal and Evangelical. There are churches (like the United Church of Christ, for instance) who avoid all the high ritual, but who are also welcoming to all. I would hate to see Joyce lose her faith over something like that.
Even in the Episcopal Church you can go High Church (“smells, bells, and yells (chanting)”) or Low Church (none of that and probably no music either). Most people just pick the one they like the best and don’t talk smack about the other one. My congregation does both a Low service, for the early birds who like it quiet, and a High service, for everybody else, most Sundays.
As someone who doesn’t go to the church I’ve known my entire life because I know they would never support me and who I wish to marry, I appreciate Becky’s outlook, even if it’s just to voice it to potentially comfort Joyce.
I’m not sure if I believe Becky’s statement fully – it’s hard not to have guilt in a religious upbringing like the one she has – but I like to think this is the decision that she’s made, which if she’s comfortable with, then that’s all that matters.
Religion shouldn’t dictate who people love. It gives us ideals and strengths to live by, certainly, but whatever power is out there, I don’t believe it would allow us to love if it hated it. That’s just my general outlook at least.
I am interested in seeing where this goes though – Jacob is honest and trying to give her a different outlook. I love that he doesn’t put up with Joyce’s nice answer first, but he doesn’t seem pushy either that she SHOULD be HERE just because of faith. That’s really respectful in my eyes and it’s appreciated.
I suppose you COULD see him as being disrespectful by being like ‘shouldn’t you like this more because of Becky’ but I don’t think so? It doesn’t come off that way to me – it’s not as black and white as I originally stated (life rarely is though).
I love that book to death, but I don’t think its the best resource for a serious study of religion. Heck, even if we stick within Terry Pratchett, I think Nation does that better. And I really think they should read some actual scholarly work on the concept of religion
What’s fascinating here is Becky. She grew up in a church that hates her, but she’s convinced that her God doesn’t. So, what the church says or does is meaningless nonsense and she doesn’t even need to go if she doesn’t want to, because the God she prays to and believes in is always right there with her, supporting her through adversity.
Like, she’s not being fully honest here, people using faith to justify mistreating her is one of the most common parts where her mask absolutely drops and she shows how upset she is. But she definitely doesn’t see Church and its doctrines and formats as being important to her faith.
And I think it’s why her faith endures. They can never chisel into her and make her doubt her God only the people chiseling’s ability to speak for said God. For Joyce though, it’s all about the Church. The doctrine and the culture and the format and a much more illusive idea of God as an antagonist waiting for one fuck up to send you to hell.
And so for Joyce, she dreads that once she lets go of the format, then she’ll lose God as well, because she’s not seeing what she’s accustomed to seeing God in in any other Church, because she associates the Church with being the sole moral authority of God.
And yes, this does mean that Becky has her own… personal… Jesus:
It’s not surprising, You actually find more variations of christ and areas where people are more accepting towards LGBTQ in certain churches. The bible wasn’t written in one langauge, nor was it thought of one form. Some people think god is a guy with a big white beard, some people think it’s a woman spreading warmth and cheer in fact.
Everyone’s view of heaven is different at the end of the day.
I had to put my dog down yesterday so my usual ‘check comic to see the strip’ routine completely escaped my mind til now. I’m feeling better today, doggo was old and sick and had been suffering. As for the actual comic, I’m glad Joyce could be honest with him! Such a huge change has to be kinda striking. But change isn’t always bad. And Becky being Becky as always~ Props to Jacob for trying to be inclusive at least, as much as Becky loves guitars I’m sure she enjoyed getting to go to a church and not be whispered about and talked down to. (aka the church she grew up with and went on a Sunday with Joyce after everything with her father went down.)
I am deeply sorry for your loss. My dog is my best friend for forever, but she just had her ninth birthday, and I’m forced to realise the end might be near. I’m sorry for your loss, and i hope you have support.
Thank you Lapin! It’s been rough, Saturday was truly the worst day of my life, but I feel better now. Thankfully my parents, friends, and neighbors have all been very kind and caring. I’m sorry that your doggy isn’t in good health and I’ll be hoping the best for her! It’s gonna be rough and I hope you’ll be alright too. Just remember that you gave her a good 9 years, that you gave her a home and love that not all pets get to experience. These are the thoughts that keep me going and I hope they will help you as well.
TBH, she’s in great health, it’s just everyone going “Well, labs only live 9-12 years” that has me deeply paranoid and anxious. Like, my Molly is in genuine great health, to the point the vet says she might have a good long life ahead of her, but everyone keeps saying “yeah, get ready for her to die soon”. I’m not kidding, people have genuinely said that like it’s a casual fact to pass on.
Yeesh, I’m so sorry. That’s stressful as hell. I’ve never had anyone say that to me thankfully, but I’m sorry that people are making you anxious for your poor puppo. You know her better than anybody, so if you and the vet think she’s alright, I think you’re on the money.
Thank you again, I am genuinely touched that you left a comment expressing condolences for my loss. I wasn’t really expecting any responses so it feels good. Things are still rough and I think they’ll continue to be rough every morning I wake up without her in my bed but time heals all wounds and I have tons of amazing memories with her. I wouldn’t trade them for anything. <3
I adore Joyce here and how her wheels refuse to turn. She gets a one-two punch to her faith, and just grinds to a halt.
Punch one: she went to a church service that had the same message, but stripped out all the modern theatrics. Ritual over a wholesome mini-concert who’s entire purpose is essentially to say “You’re better than them and you deserve it all” (at least, every single one of those pop-up gym churches with the overhead projector I’ve ever been to in my life has been that). Lo and behold, when the wholesome modern teen concert that tells you you’re special was stripped away, there was nothing. The church service that is closer to where the entire faith came from in the first place gave her exactly zero. That SHOULD tell her that maybe it’s not God that struck her at all in the first place.
Punch the second: The place she loved and felt God told her friend to fuck off, and the place she didn’t feel God welcomes her. Thankfully, Joyce has gotten beyond that stumbling block most other people of faith trip up on which is “THEN THAT MEANS MY FRIEND IS BAD”, so this SHOULD throw Joyce for a big old loop.
I especially love this storyline: I grew up in a Episcopal private school, so went to a ton of church services like that. My mother was also all about the modern contemporary faith revolution, where ad-hoc churches gather in convention centers or school gyms or abandoned big box store buildings and hold grassroots services. (oddly enough, she’d wander over to another one as soon as they started doing what all other churches do: incessantly asking for money to pay for bigger buildings and better equipment and cars and shit. It’s almost like that was the point of them to begin with!)
So I got to see both from basically day one: people who went for ritual and obligation and heard nothing that challenged their faith for basically thirty years straight, and people who wanted to belong and be loved so fucking badly they’d close their eyes and raise their hands and babble nonsense because they felt the INTENSE POWER of a room full of 500 people mumble a standard contemporary worship song while reading lyrics from an overhead projector.
The instant I got to college and realized the best groups of people I’d ever met didn’t even wander close to doing either of those things, I dropped my faith at lightspeed. Can’t wait to see if Joyce does the same.
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 11d
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“I’m gonna get inta Heaven no matter what, so of COURSE I want the cushiest ride”
Gravatar is fitting.
Becky’s attitude is wonderful. #1 Role Model.
Is it though? She’s actively choosing the religion that doesn’t think she’s people.
I meant in this strip in particular, not in general. In general Becky is awesome.
My vibe is that, Becky is trying to let Joyce off the hook. Like, if what Joyce needs right now is to attend a church that has the cultural and ritual elements she’s familiar with, even if that church is anti-LGBT, Becky is trying to give her permission. Which seems incredibly kind, if maybe not necessarily wise.
I suspect that Becky is a Theist– that is, she believes in God, but not any particular religion, not deep down. She was unworried about the spiritual consequences of coming out as gay and leaving her Christian college; she’s not threatened by evolution; none of the ritual’s in Bryan’s church bothered her.
Becky wants what’s best for Joyce, and, as she sees it, what is best for Joyce might be attending an evangelical church and tuning out the anti-gay stuff. I don’t really agree that that’s best for Joyce (or anyone). But, I can see why Becky might think that, and it speaks of her love of Joyce that she tries to offer this permission.
Dunno why I typed “Bryan,”; I meant Jacob. >.<
Wait, that’s a thing? *Suddenly has a word for his beliefs now*
I agree with this interpretation of Becky’s comment, and it also makes me wonder how she’s feeling. When I was their age and had friends who were finding themselves religiously, I was definitely like, “If this is what you want, I will support the heck out of you” even when it was somewhat breaking my heart.
Isn’t that what a Deist is? I always understood “theist” as a general term for anyone that believes in *any* deity.
Oh, sorry! I thought they were synonyms.
Deism is a belief in a non-interventionist God. God exists, but does not or cannot interact with our lives or the world in any way. Believing that God answers lesbian prayers (or any prayers at all) means she is probably not a deist.
Theist may be the closest word there is to describe Becky simply because, while she believes in a theistic God, she doesn’t have any particular doctrinal beliefs to put her in a more specific category. She may find herself at home among Unitarian Universalists, but she may just find a UU church to be just another place to go on a Sunday.
A little more complicated, since I’m sure Becky’s conception of God is still a very Christian one, while Theist goes beyond that to cover pretty much anything religious.
I mean, she is a theist, but so are Joyce, Jacob and Raidah. She might not have specific enough doctrinal beliefs to pick a specific Christian denomination, but I’d be shocked if they weren’t specific enough to rule out Hinduism or Islam or Judaism.
Even among Christian sects, you’d think she’d want to find one that didn’t conflict over her only known doctrine – God answers lesbian prayers. Preferably one with guitars.
See, and I figure pretty much all gods are real; but I only follow my Norse ones.
If you live in the Stargate universe that’s the way to go. I remember one episode where there was debate whether the million to one chance thing the main characters did actually worked or if it was close enough to working that the Norse gods could intervene.
I think you’ve pretty much nailed Becky’s motivation, but I am 100% sure Joyce herself would not be ok with “attending an evangelical church and tuning out the anti-gay stuff.” She’s way too invested in the expressed beliefs of her religion.
I think you’re right.
Seems right to me. I can’t really imagine Becky attending an anti-gay church on her own for long, but she’d do it for Joyce.
(I can kind of see a montage of Becky standing up and yelling “I am a lesbian” in the middle of services and being run out of church after church until she finds one where they just accept her. All with guitars, of course.)
Are they running her out because she’s a lesbian, or because she was shouting during the sermon?
If it were a Quaker meeting, Becky would totally be allowed to shout “I am a lesbian!” in the middle of the service. That’s actually kind of a thing that Quakers do; they sit throughout most of the service in total silence, but they stand up when they feel “moved by the spirit” to say something that they’ve been feeling strongly – whether it’s a thought, a question, or an answer. If she felt a spiritual need to let her community know she’s a lesbian, they’d probably accept it.
Songs and music aren’t terribly frequent in Quaker services, but they’re not forbidden either. Becky might have to bring her own guitar, or settle for joining some Quakers as they play retro protest songs at a peace rally or anti-pollution protest. Not kidding; my Quaker meeting has had a bunch of events where they protested a pipeline, prayed for peace, and spoke out against Donald Trump, and guitar music happened at all of those. Quakers are pretty much less-ostentatious hippies.
Some churches (southern Baptist, for example) _expect_ people to shout during the sermon – it’s kind of a ‘filled with fervor’ kind of thing.
What Heroes said – ‘moved by the spirit’. Quakers do it, too, huh?
You have a good interpretation. I saw her comment another way. To me, it sounded more like: “I believe that God loves me no matter what anyone else says about it and I can put up with narrow-minded people if I have to. And to be quite honest- your church is boring.” I agree that it was likely said for Joyce’s benefit, but more to let her know that feeling connected to God doesn’t mean that she has to feel connected to his congregation. I think it was encouragement for Joyce to find a church that speaks to her and worry less about the beliefs of the individuals.
I also agree, though, that Joyce probably will less and less find comfort in an anti-LGBT church because the sermons that address the topic will make her feel frustrated and uncomfortable the more she grows in tolerance. I think what she needs to do is keep exploring her options of churches until she finds one that has the tolerance of Jacob’s and the celebratory tone of her old one.
You guys are over thinking Becky. She’s not talking about selecting and support faith groups. She’s simply saying which activities she likes better. She’d rather be hearing some rock than get stuck kneeling. doctrine and supportiveness is also good and important, but that’s not going to make her enjoy the music any better.
Becky. It is what it is, so live in the moment.
She’s choosing guitars over no guitars. She explicitly says that the religion itself is wrong about her, and that she and God are cool, no matter what anyone says.
Yeah, but the guitars in this case come with a whole bunch of other stuff. Personally, I think Becky might be saying what she is in part to comfort Joyce.
I do hope, though, that Becky can find an inclusive church with guitars some day.
She’s choosing guitars and rejection over no guitars and inclusion, in response to Jacob posing that dichotomy. And…choosing the guitars and rejection is a weird, seemingly self-disrespecting choice. Extra weird given how self-confident she is in her personal religious views.
I don’t think the guitars and inclusion are mutually exclusive, though.
Joyce likes the message that Jacob’s church has, but dislikes how formal it was. Jacob thinks that the message is the important thing.
Becky isn’t literally saying “I’m going back to my old church where I can be hated by everyone”, because she clearly isn’t. She’s just saying that she doesn’t like the formality either.
The guitars and inclusion aren’t mutually exclusive, but that’s how they were being discussed and that’s what Becky responded to with her choice. It’s hard not to take it that way in this context.
But it’s not really about guitars. Joyce says she didn’t “feel God in it.” The dichotomy might be, “a place where you feel God, but your friend is rejected,” versus, “a place where your friend is accepted, but feels spiritually empty to you.” Becky is being flippant, but she’s trying to give Joyce the option to attend the former without guilt.
Nawww, Becky is saying “I don’t care about the community of church.” That’s what this is really about. She doesn’t seem to feel any close connection to any church communities right now, so she prefers to just worship and have fun doing it.
What Becky secretly wants is to be at a rock concert, not a church.
There’s a lot of it about.
Looking for God at a rock concert.
Because God rocks!
I don’t study religion, so I may be overgeneralizing, but most religions have various sects, including Christianity, and each sect has a different opinion on what their religion is about. They decide what they believe and how they worship. Becky’s a Christian- she believes God exists and loves her (and presumably most, if not all other people), and she doesn’t believe that God is homophobic, or believe in Creationism. And you might say that she’s just picking and choosing what being a Christian is, but so is everybody else.
“What do you mean you have musical instruments accompanying the singing?!”
Most religions have at least one – pipe organ is the ‘traditional’ one.
I think it’s just that she likes the “fun” church better than the one that stands on ceremony. Nothing wrong with that, either – she’d just need to find one that wouldn’t believe she’s condemned to Hell for not being straight.
She has already chose a religion (or more exactly an interpretation) that suits her. All she is choosing here are the trappings she prefers.
She’s choosing her religion, which does not actually include the homophobia*, and rejecting mainstream US Christianity as unimportant. I’d say that’s pretty damn good. Hell, as a queer Christian/ Christian-adjacent, reading that speech bubble made me feel a little better too.
*I’m talking about what’s actually in the religion, not what the mainstream US Church has turned it into. Because I think its the former she’s referring to, with the whole (“God loves me no matter what”)
Becky has shown us pretty clearly she’s not going to return to her abusive and cult-like Christian community.
It’s a lot more than just the mainstream US Church. Homophobia is deeply ingrained in Christianity around the world. There are more and more branches that are getting past that, but there’s been an anti-homosexual crusade in the Church for a long, long time.
I’m amused, because both Mary and I would agree on that point, but for different objectives. Having her as my grav is actually pretty funny.
Well…. duh? There’s been lots of gross stuff done in the name of Christianity over the years which either directly contradicts the Bible or takes a passage from it and twists it up into something hateful. And it still goes on, just like when people do hateful violent things in the name of other religions. (Even though I don’t think those religions actually support those actions either. Its why I get so mad when people act afraid of Muslims. They’re nice people and what I know of their religion is pretty darn positive.)
I’m just here to talk about the comic and how I relate to it, so I specified US because that’s where both Becky and my experiences are. And I still believe that the religion itself isn’t inherently homophobic, just that there are too many people who use any opportunity to be selfish and violent.
Homophobia is such a frustrating aspect to many religions. I read a textbook once that was a comparison of nine major world religions teachings on sexuality, family structure, and gender; each chapter gave overviews of stances and scriptural bases for stances, then how those beliefs played out in different countries (for example, places where that religion is majority vs. minority). The nine religions were Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Other Polytheism.
While there were differing beliefs about the purpose of sexuality, all of the eight most mainstream either expressly condemned same-sex relationships, or did not officially sanctify them. The only sanctified same-sex relationships were in the scriptures of some “Other Polytheism” religions.
In terms of the thousands-of-years-old histories of these religions, there were no theological movements to sanctify same-sex relationships until the past 100 years or so, often far less.
It’s so baffling to me, even though I can somewhat understand the rationales. But, still–so few commonalities across the board, but anti-same-sex relationships is one of them.
I mean the whole reason Evangelical churches use electric guitars is to lure in the youth. So I’m not sure buying into it is really the best idea.
I completely agree with you.
This is a little odd for me to say, but I’m kinda getting the feeling that Joyce’s faith is really shallow. I know she lives it and breathes it completely, but her life before college was so sheltered that I kind of feel like her college experience is the first time she’s ever questioned any of this – that it’s the first time she’s ever thought that maybe, just MAYBE, her faith wasn’t what she thought it was.
It seems pretty clear to me that Becky went through that a long time ago, probably back when she was realizing herself that she wasn’t straight. And she seems to have her head on her shoulders. She knows what she believes and has a rock-solid foundation. Jacob, also, seems pretty comfortable and confident with his faith.
Joyce… she grew up sheltered, with a skewed understanding of Christianity and a lot of wrong theology. She was taught to be ashamed of her sexuality and fear any sin, among many other things. Heck, she even says here that she’s defining her experience not by the teaching or by the devotion or fellowship, but by her -feelings-. I thought she had a solid foundation, but the paint on her rock-solid foundation has been removed, and it’s all styrofoam underneath.
… I’m assuming I know where this is going, as Willis has stated that Joyce’s experience is somewhat autobiographical. And I’m sad. I’ve been through something like this when I started college; I realized that the God I thought I believed in was nothing but fluff and fancy words and empty rituals. But it drove me to try to get a REAL relationship with God and actually understand Him for who He is without any skewed church telling me what to think. And Joyce… well…
Her Christianity is core to her identity; it literally makes her the adorable little cinnamon bun that we all love. And if she loses that, then this becomes an even darker, more unhappy story. Maybe with its moments of light here and there. But losing faith in everything that you ever believed in really isn’t a cheerful subject, regardless of your religion.
I wouldn’t really say that Joyce’s Christianity is at the core of her identity. Its obviously a huge part of her life, but her sense of justice,determination, and loyalty seem to be more important to her. Just look at how she reacted to Becky coming out to her. When she saw that telling Becky she had made a mistake made her friend feel worse, she changed tact and embraced her for who she was, regardless of whether God was ok with it or not. Afterwards she found a way to reconcile her God with Becky’s sexuality through research, but she made it pretty clear before then that she was loyal to her friend before her religion.
I’m not saying that becoming an atheist wouldn’t be horribly traumatic for Joyce, but I think she’ll be able to come through with her cheerful optimistic personality in tact. Dorothy could help fix her up with atheist friendly philosophies to give her a reason to get up in the morning, and she’ll probably adopt social justice or something like that as her new passion to fill the gap left by Christianity.
Isn’t religion all about feelings, mainly the feeling of belonging? Of being part of something greater than yourself?
And right now, Joyce gets that feeling not with her old church and we saw her freaking out with the service she just attended so there weren’t many moments where a feeling of belonging could come up.
Evangelical churches are good in creating movements of connection that’s a mayor part of their success.
I think Becky recognizes this, and she seems to find it more important to have the connection (which has no relation to the words being said) than the right words.
No, not really; at least, not at a foundational level. You could argue that worship is based off of feelings, but again, that’s a bit shallow, and only a small portion of one’s experience as a Christian.
When it comes down to it, a religion is very close to a philosophy: a way that you see the world and interpret what is around you, with the main difference being that the religion is based off of a metaphysical understanding of the world, and philosophical being purely physical. A church (or temple, mosque, etc.) is essentially a group of like-minded people who agree on the same basic philosophy and who wish to gather together in order to pay respect, honor, serve, and learn about the deity they serve. As a result of doing these tasks, the worshipper may feel fulfilled. But the purpose of going to church, being with those believers, and doing those actions isn’t self-motivated; it’s outwardly motivated. You do these things for the deity you serve, not for some personal reward.
This usually seems extremely strange and awkward to an outsider (Dorothy wondering where she should look while singing to the invisible man in the sky), and oftentimes people try to rationalize it by saying that religion is a means to some other end – feeling good about oneself, feeling like they have a place in the world, inner peace and calm, a greater community, et cetera. And all of those things are good and should not be discounted. But to think of them as the end and the purpose of the action, instead of simply as the outcome of a life genuinely lived with a purpose for one’s god or one’s belief, is to put the cart before the horse. The Christian ‘feels good’ because they believe in God; they don’t believe in God in order to ‘feel good.’
I’d say this *can* be true but usually isn’t: that for each person who’s thought about their faith and what it means to them, and their community, there are a hundred who are blindly going through the motions because that’s what they’ve done their whole life. Their sense of community comes from sharing space with people who share their social norms, and then their religion is a thin veneer of deity over those social norms.
And yet, from the outside, it very much looks like many churches try to create that good feeling, through well known psychological tactics – that’s what all the ritual, affirmation, singing etc does.
This debate has been going on for generations in the Church. One side: “Stop chasing a feeling. Seriously, stop it. Holy rollering and falling down in the aisles and everybody with their hands in the air and the preacher up there pacing back and forth and yelling? Anybody can make a big noise, but y’all are missing a lot of actual content. The liturgy is there so that we can do things as a group that reinforce our beliefs, and it also reminds us of stuff we might otherwise leave out. Being transported in the Spirit will happen on its own schedule.” Other side: “Why are you sitting there reading words out of a book? Why do all your hymns sound so formal? What’s with all the doctrine talk from the pulpit? Is there no spontaneity, is there no joy? Why can’t people just speak from the heart? Why can’t we unite in joyful worship?”
Personally I’m on the formal side because I really dislike it when music and preaching try to make me feel something on cue.
Same here. Music and lyrics are intended specifically to produce a specific emotion. If my religious experience is no deeper than that of a ten-year-old watching Elsa belt out “Let It Go,” then it’s nothing but manufactured emotion.
Which is the point. Whatever the internal debates about it, it works. It gets butts in the seats. Churches that do so have more members, more power, more influence. Pretty much regardless of theology.
The thing is, IMO (as an occasionally-cynical non-believer), that’s exactly the experience that a lot of believers are chasing and that some churches are selling. They don’t want to contemplate the details of scripture, they just want to feel. To be swept up in literal religious ecstasy. A lot of them, again IMO, do actually believe in some deity or another, but they’ve connected the worship of Him with gettin’ high and being part of a community.
I beg to differ on the “agree on the same basic philosophy” part.
The church offers some sort of explanation of the world and how one should conduct oneself theirin, but where I grew up, people went to church because that was something you did. And my catholic relatives in Ireland came in the flavours of “more catholic than the pope” and “Jesus never said anything about birth control” and they all attended the same church.
To my mind, organized religion is a thing that organizes life (from what I read, in the more rural areas of the US, the churches are involved in anything from village festivals to providing food for people in need and there is not really anything else that might provide social,cohesion). Without religion helping to organize life, organization of people might not have gone beyond city level.
In my mind, the wish to belong and be secure (and safe) are the needs that drive religion, and how this is actually done and which tenets one believes in used to be a matter of not too much choice. This has changed with faster communication and stuff, where you might learn about other churches or religions and chose one that fits your life more. But that’s a thing that’s rather recent in history. Before, most people tried to find a place within the framework of their religion because being outside of it had severe social punishments. Some who felt (again: feeling) strongly about something might have started and tried to reform their church, but that was uphill work. Maybe the US developed this slightly differently because most of the early settlers were dissenting sects of Christiandom so they had a stronger tendency when not of the same opinion to start a new church than the people who remained in Europe?
From what you’re talking about, you’re referring to religion as a mostly civic institution, that has a purpose specifically for social organization, and castigation for those who are outside of it. And from a certain perspective, I can see where you’re coming from. Certainly, in the more Bible-belt areas of the US, there’s a certain society that expects you to go to church as the “thing you do.” And I can’t argue the fact that in those societies, there might be absolutely nothing more to being a member of a faith then just hanging out with your social circle.
And there’s certainly a large amount of history, especially with the Catholic church before the reformation, in which Christianity was used as a method of social organization and control for a society that just didn’t have much in the wake of the fall of the Roman Empire. So what you’re saying certainly has merit.
But for many professing believers, they don’t do it because they ‘feel’ they need to do it or because society dictates it. If that was the case, then you wouldn’t have those small pockets of persecuted Christians in Iraq and Syria and India and China, or people who go to churches in more left-leaning regions in which Christianity is the exception, rather than the rule. To them, the religion -is- a complete worldview, how they define existence and how they orient the direction of their life. A church is more than just a social organization; it’s where you spend the most important time of the day.
And feelings only have a small portion of it. Martin Luther and the other reformers didn’t take on the Catholic church because they ‘felt bad’, they argued for reformation and later splintered specifically due to intelligent criticisms and critiques of the Church; areas in which it was contradicting its own teachings or the words of Jesus. It was intense logical theological debate, which continues to this day between numerous religious denominations and sects. And while Europe has cooled in the last three hundred years into essentially being set in its religious ways, it once was the hotbed of intense theological debate; where people regularly fought and died for what they believe. America is such a turmultous mixing pot of every different religious belief specifically because those people who felt extremely different than others left Europe and settled in the New World.
You don’t become a martyr for a source of civic organization, or for an emotional connection to a band with guitars. You become a martyr for a cause that you believe in so strongly that it’s worth more than yourself to uphold it.
Joyce is realizing that not all beliefs that people hold dear are good and right, and that a good number of them reside with the doctrines that she currently (or used to) hold dear. Yet she’s already been trained to believe that there’s only one way to feel close to God: specifically from the type of church that she grew up in. That’s the kind of feeling you get when your parents are so over-concerned about the specific doctrine that they believe that they jump from church to church just to get the perfect one. She’s left with this feeling not that her God is the only way, but that this extremely narrow way of understanding Him is the only way. And if that’s removed, she has nothing.
Bravo to Jacob for trying to broaden Joyce’s horizons. But if she isn’t able to reconcile his church and his faith as being the same as the one she had, and quite probably more grounded and ‘correct’ then what she grew up in, then all of her parents’ teaching essentially is driving her to NOT be a Christian.
Good job, Mom and Dad!
Instead you get religious wars about trivial aspects of doctrine. Which pretty much proves the point: even then for most people, the religions are about identity and tribalism. Those emotional connections are what people fight for. They’re what unscrupulous leaders use to motivate their followers.
Those pockets of persecuted Christians (or Jews or Muslims or Hindus or ….) aren’t there because they looked around and researched and debated various doctrines and picked one that stood up to their most rigorous scrutiny: They’re their because that’s their identity. That’s the culture and the religion they were born into. Persecution makes the persecuted group cling more closely to its identity and traditions.
And that’s the way it’s been throughout most of history, in nearly every culture. The culture has its overwhelmingly dominant religion, with only a few outsider groups following their own traditions. Actual religious pluralism is actually a pretty modern (post-Enlightenment?) thing, at least in the West.
I dunno, I’m kinda with CJ on this one.
I’m a Christian, with pretty specific beliefs that I arrived at over years of study and prayer and thought. I was pretty sure I was an atheist for a while, and I studied the tenets of Jainism and other non-monotheistic religions that rang true to me in some ways, before ultimately coming back to Christianity (albeit one with quite a serious theological difference than the one I was raised in). I currently attend an Episcopalian church even though I don’t agree with 100% of their doctrine.
Aaaaaand MOST people I know, at every single church or temple I’ve ever been too, don’t think all that much about cosmology or theology. Church is a place where they feel they belong. Temple provides resources and does good work in their community. A thoughtful sermon in their pov illustrates how to be a good person more than it answers “why”.
I get along with these people! But it’s also why I’ll go for months or even a year without attending a church; instead, I’ll listen to sermons online and pray on my own. I feel guilty for skipping out on eucharist service so often, which is what usually motivates me to go back. But I’ve always been a bit of a loner, and the community aspect of church is the main draw for most.
By my estimate, more people have left churches over interpersonal conflict or not fitting in than because they had a serious doctrinal disagreement. This is the norm, not the exception.
I’d sneak in my own grape juice.
In a flask in a hollowed-out hymn book.
Your grav is so on for that comment,
And to think I wanted to change it today.
*plays Ambrosia’s “How Much I Feel” on the stereo of a nearby parked car*
Go home Walky.
It’s interesting that Joyce looks like she’s considering this a lot harder than Becky
Yeah, Becky seems really flippant about going to any religious service, even if they could accost her for her sexuality. I wouldn’t feel safe attending just any service myself.
There’s something about having the church you grew up in and trusted tell you that you ought not to exist that will shear off a whole bunch of reverence for religion in general.
She is dating Dina…
I look forward to new variants of Joyce Freak-Out-Face ™ when Becky becomes agnostic, and then atheist.
I don’t see that happening. I’m with commenters from previous comics saying that if one of the two were to become agnostic or atheist, it would be Joyce, though I don’t see that happening at least in the timeline of this comic.
Agreed, I was making a joke. Becky doesn’t seem to need the…consistency of message and logical cohesion (?must be a better way to phrase that?) that Joyce does, which makes her apparently fine with gay-hating fundie church but keeps leading Joyce to these awkward internal conflics, as in panel 5.
Honestly though, changes in core beliefs take years, so yeah, not in the timeline of this comic.
Actually, I feel that Joyce very well could become an atheist in the timeline of this comic. I think its already been hinted at that she is struggling with faith issues, she’s just doing her best to ignore them. For instance, in the strip when Becky surprised Joyce in her room, Joyce was asking God to give her a sign, saying his voice had been very quiet recently. (Sorry, I don’t know how to create links).This phenomenon is something I’ve heard happens to some people as they are on the brink of leaving their faith. Becky turning up just then may have helped her stave of those doubts, but they are probably still there in the back of her mind. I don’t see why Willis would foreshadow something like that if he isn’t going to follow through on it eventually.
Sure, in real life changes in core beliefs like this do generally take years, but this is not real life. This is a comic, the main story line of which centres on a fundamentalist Christian having her beliefs challenged by her first experience of secular life. Not exploring her feelings towards deconverting would seem like a missed opportunity to me, when her changing many of her beliefs is a running theme of the comic. Besides, if she can have changed her deeply held beliefs about gay people in such a short space of time, I see no reason why she couldn’t become an atheist unusually quickly either.
I can’t speak to Joyce, given that this comic has done tons of things I never expected, but I know that my own experience with losing religion was a very quick process. I just looked at all the pomp and unnecessary ceremony of the Catholic Church that Is grown up with, the ridiculous “trying-too-hard” nature of evangelical churches my cousins were gravitating towards, and several other religions that I was introduced to through other people, and I got the creeping suspicion that it was all just pointless scrabbling for any sense of community that people would accept just about anything . . . which triggered my quick egress from religion almost entirely. So . . .
I’d be shocked if Joyce didn’t become atheist by the end – at least if the comic comes to a proper conclusion. Assuming that’s where she’s headed, it’s the necessary end of her character arc. You don’t leave that kind of thing hanging as “yeah, she’s still struggling with it, but she leaves the church some years later”.
It’s certainly possible she’ll go in a different direction, but some kind of resolution will be needed.
And frankly, Joyce’s faith is such that a break can’t really be a gradual process. It’s all tightly tied together in a way that makes it strong, but brittle. Undo a couple threads and the whole thing falls apart. She had a rant earlier on about how if evolution is true, everything she’s been taught is a lie. Evolution->no Adam and Eve -> no Original Sin
Many think the reverse is more likely: Becky seems flexible in her religion, while Joyce is rigid, and also semi-autobiographical of Willis. Which leads to athesit Joyce.
In January of 2016, I went on record to a friend of mine as predicting that, by the end of 2017, Joyce would verbally express doubt that God exists. This late in the year it’s a bit of a long shot, but after Joyce’s “But I’m not sure I felt any God in it” today, I’d say the window is still quite open.
Eh, I think Becky may well be more religious than Joyce in the future. Becky has a personal relationship with God that doesn’t NEED structure the way Joyce does–which isn’t a bad thing but it is different.
I wonder if that church has a youth group. Is joyce too old for youth group?
lol. “Your friend.” Jacob forgot Becky’s name
He’s just trying to say that Becky is Joyce’s dear friend, and wouldn’t Joyce consider joining a church who accepts someone who she loves very much.
God save us if we didn’t put EVERY NAME THERE. HEY LOOK ITS JESSICA! HEY LOOK ITS MICHEAL. HEY LOOK THERES MALIK!
GOTTA SAVE THE NAMES GOOD LORD SAVE US ALL
Personally, I wish some of my friends found inclusive doctrine more important, but in my experience at least, that’s not what happens.
These people are so oblivious. The only reason some churches use electric guitars is to make their services more appealing to the youth. They’re being manipulated.
Yeah, and the pipe organs and stained glass are another manipulation, just an old one. The reverence of saints is a manipulation. Adopting and then dumping the doctrine of Purgatory were manipulations. Celebrating Christmas, and moving its date from April to December were manipulations.
The manipulations that succeed get passed on to subsequent generations.
You really think the youth are into stained glass windows and pipe organs these days? I kinda doubt they ever were. Kids like joyful revelry, and these Evangelical churches pile it on to lure them in.
I enjoy stained glass. It’s pretty.
Oh me too. I hated church when I was a kid though lol
I went to church once before high school.
They told my mother it was an art camp. It was a front for a cult that made us come up and pray in front of a fire near the stage. I was TERRIFIED of fire at that age (I was 5 or 6) and I came home unable to speak because I was freaked the fuck out. After two of those ‘camp days’ my friend told her what was going on. Needless to say, I did not go back. My mother also barged in one day while they were doing their cult-y sing along and yelled at them in front of the kids that they didn’t know what the hell they were talking about.
That’s utterly horrifying.
Yep. That was a fun time.
Also, regarding their ‘art camp’ – they had our parents drops us off in an art room and then took us to their stage/alter thing and then when they were done sermonizing, they took us back to the art room and gave us little 10 minute crafts to do like painting on a pot or covering rocks with glitter so we could show our parents stuff we made when they picked us up, none the wiser.
I mean, I know plenty of young people who actually prefer more “traditional” church settings and plenty who don’t. There’s a lot of variety out there.
That gives me hope for the future lol
No these days, no. At least, I don’t think many are.
What I’m suggesting is that stained glass was originally adopted as a manipulation. Pipe organs were originally adopted as a manipulation. Each religious tradition is an accumulation of manipulations that worked in their time. They seem profound or pompous now. But when they were new there were old codgers and codgeuses shaking their heads and lamenting that the traditional crust of stuff they were used to and thought was inherent was getting obscured by a crust of newfangled gimcrackery.
There was a time when instrumental music- anything other than Gregorian chant, really- was newfangled heresy that was destroying real religion in order to give the unwashed masses sinful delights.
At least, according to the one class I took on music appreciation. Admittedly that was 8 years ago at this point.
Youth are far from the only demographic that organisations try (and often succeed) in manipulating. I imagine the more formal and traditional forms of worship appeal more to a more mature audience.
These people are so oblivious. The only reason some companies use sugar is to make their beverages more appealing to the tongue. They’re being manipulated.
Yes! Spread the good word!
They only can make the drinks so cheap because the government subsidizes it twice! Sugar is rare in nature so humans have only one mechanism to deal with too much sugar! It’s giving us all diabetes!
-Gospel of seriously our diets are messed up
Why do you think high fructose corn syrup is so prominent in the US? It’s cheaper than cane sugar because of subsidized corn production.
Don’t forget the sugar quotas that end up subsidizing it a second time. Why else would fast food places and restaurants be able to add massive cups of pop to meals for almost no extra expense?
If you order just a burger and fries, the cashier will always ask you if you are sure. Because the pop is often free at that point.
Truly, I’m being stolen from my own mindset because I love the appraisal of music taste with my gospel. I say this in sarcasm. Deep sarcasm.
*guitar descends from the heavens*
*becky plays the best song in the world (not a tribute to it, but that’s good too)*
And walky provides the vocals
I doubt Walky knows the words to ‘Rocky Mountain High’.
The weatherman says ‘rocky mountain high’.
The weather will be better by and by.
The thunderclouds will leave and there’ll be rainbows in the sky…
Rocky mountain hiiiiIIIIiiigh—
Jacob : Husband material. Too good, too pure for this world.
But Dorothy is already the Perfect Cinnamon Roll!
Dotty is Perfect Best Friend Cinnamon Roll. Jacob can be Perfect Husband Cinnamon Roll.
Well… At the buzzer, I’m still scoring Jacob higher than Joyce for this one, with Becky throwing a last-second shot in at the 0:01 mark.
He put in a real effort to try to make Joyce feel at home (at, unquestionably, the cost of his own full attention to taking part in the service), took doctrinal considerations into account for Becky (which, tbh, he didn’t really have to- as we can see here). And Joyce is still ‘not feeling God’s presence’ because it wasn’t her usual Six Flags Over Jesus Wiggles concert dealie.
(Becky’s off to the side Beckying, so there’s really not much to say about that.)
Let’s all go to the Church of St. Jimi Hendrix.
I would, except for the crosstown traffic.
Hard to see a that church anyways with all that purple haze.
There is no god but Clapton, and Knopfler is his prophet.
And St. Vaughan is one of his disciphles.
Not a whole lot of patience for someone who’s criteria for religion is similar to her criteria for chicken tenders.
So you’re saying Joyce feels God in chicken tenders
Now I’m getting Cheese Toast Jesus flashbacks.
I don’t need Cheese Toast Jesus flashbacks.
Rather than a preference of religious service I kind of wonder if this is Becky’s way of being supportive of Joyce? Sort of her subtle, you don’t have to force yourself to like this on my account I know you like the guitars I’ll also like the guitars. Like when Joyce forced herself to go to the sushi place despite not liking that kind of thing because Becky had expressed an interest and Becky is like, ‘c’mon you don’t have to do that’ and Joyce is sort of punishing herself for not supporting Becky immediately and for ever believing that anything Becky was was wrong (and possibly for not loving Becky back in a romantic way). So she’s trying to make up for it, also with like, ‘I can’t talk about how crappy my family is because yours is worse’ etc. And Becky is trying to offset that and be a good friend in her own way.
That’s how I interpreted Becky’s comment too.
It’s probably both. Becky really is that certain that God loves her
She is that certain. And she probably does like the guitars.
But she also wouldn’t go to a church where she had to hide being a lesbian for anyone but Joyce.
Considering how Becky would probably die to save Joyce’s life*, this is quite a reasonable interpretation.
*And yes, Joyce would of course do the same for Becky.
Aww, that’s a sweet interpretation.
Y’know, I kinda understand what Joyce means? But in a way that I’m sure would give us an amazing face. I grew up Lutheran, went to church for like fifteen solid years nearly every Sunday, but the first time I could really say I experienced anything that resonated as divine to me was at my first Beltane.
I know for her it comes from being used to a certain kind of worship, but I think what I’m getting at is, the right kind of ambiance is important? And you can’t really, like, fake that if you’re not feeling it. Hopefully she eventually finds that perfect place with the right ambiance but also doctrine that’s not bigoted and terrible.
Definitely. Jacob certainly seems to find the church satisfying — but pomp and ceremony aren’t for everyone. Sounds like she might be better off in a Unitarian church, those are in my experience fairly small and cozy.
Kinda cool to find someone else here who’s been to a Beltane. I had my first one this year.
Joyce, God isn’t out there, God is in here. *pats stomach*
#Kirk #StarTrek #FinalFrontierBestStartrek
I meant to say *pats heart* It appears I’ve eaten God.
That’s communion.
best avatar for that comment, +1 +1 +1
Which is a fine religious tradition in its own right!
Too bad the klingons killed God in that movie. What does God need with a starship? TO FLY IN, OBVIOUSLY! Who doesn’t want the Enterprise?
The ONLY GOOD QUOTE from that movie.
That was 80s Shatner, you were right the first time.
I prefer the even numbered movies, The Wrath of Khan, The Voyage Home, and the Undiscovered Country.
You are a connoisseur.
Lies! Lies and slander! Star Trek: the Voyage Home was the best Star Trek movie!
(I’d link some deliberate over-the-top reaction video here, but I can’t think of one that fits for the occasion).
Wait, the BEST one? Really? What’s your source?
[cetacean needed]
Here ya go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WabT1L-nN-E
ISWYDT, Reltik…
“I’m not sure I felt any God in it.”
Of course you didn’t, Joyce. Of course you didn’t. You want your god to be personal, to speak to you on your level. You want your god to be a being that you feel you can speak to.
And those old traditional sermons do not do that. They are born from a time when god most certainly were not meant to speak to one personally. It was meant as a display of show, a display of how much better god (and his representatives on earth) is. They were born of a time when people were meant to be reminded how low they were compared to god.
And sure, the actual message has now changed (quite a lot, in this particular case)… But when there is such a disparity of the message and of the display of the messenger, then yeah, it’s hard to see the god in it. It stands out like a badly played chord.
So yeah, you cannot see any god in this dressing…
…But of course, as Jacob noted, there wasn’t really much god in your dressing either. Sure, it felt uplifting and personal and relatable; but all of this was a a careful construct to make you more suggestible to the dark, dark teachings underneath. When outright intimidation no longer works, evil tends to find other ways around instead.
So trapped between a great message with an outdated setting, and a great setting with an evil message, there is really only thing for you to do at this point, Joyce:
Join the wicca.
I’d prefer to avoid being acerbic here, but just because Joyce didn’t like it, doesn’t mean that the pomp and majesty of the Catholic or Anglican style churches aren’t for anyone.
One might find that same thing applied to Wicca not being for everyone either, I suspect Joyce would find some of Wicca’s teachings to fall as flat as the Episcopalian church’s ceremony did.
With regards to ‘being reminded of how low they were’, and ‘being unable to see god in the dressing’… I’m just going to say you’re wrong, your opinion is highly subjective, and leave it there, because there’s nothing constructive that can come from anything more.
The first thing that EmpNor said was acknowledging the kind of God/face of God Joyce is looking to find. different ppl connect with different things and recognise those things in different places.
Ye they were harsh. but fuck it. what you wanted to be noted was noted, just not in a way you wanted to recognise it.
And then Tarnish’s objection was not noted in a way you wanted to recognize it?
I suppose that’s the summary of religious disagreement though.
“With regards to ‘being reminded of how low they were’, and ‘being unable to see god in the dressing’… I’m just going to say you’re wrong, your opinion is highly subjective, and leave it there, because there’s nothing constructive that can come from anything more.”
Interesting, how I am apparently both wrong -and- really subjective at the same time; seeing as when something is subjective, then it is not a matter of objective facts.
Nope, let’s face it. You just made an eloquent way of saying “I think you’re wrong, but I’m not going to actually offer any arguments for why you’re wrong, I’ll just claim it and then try and run away from any actual discussion”; which frankly is the most boring type of comment.
And for the record, the history of the catholic church, whose traditions this church is still inspired from, suggests that I am most certainly right. Throughout the middle ages, they ruled (sometimes directly, often indirectly) through intimidation and fear. Do not for a second doubt that the pomp of these ceremonies were made with this in mind. Heck, “I’m catholic, so I constantly feel guilty” is still a major trope in entertainment.
You can rule by intimidation and fear without pomp and ceremony. And you can have pomp and ceremony without intimidation and fear. Your argument doesn’t stand up.
Since I never said one couldn’t, I don’t understand what your response is meant to prove. One can do many things in many ways, after all.
I just stated that the middle ages catholic church -did- rule by intimidation and fear and that they in particular did use pomp and ceremony as part of it.
I’m honestly stumped as to what part of this is in any way a controversial statement.
That’s not the controversial part of it. People are interpreting this as you saying that therefore the pomp and ceremony of the Catholic Church, and similar churches, are fundamentally bad, or, as you put it, “outdated”. Which is simply put, not true.
Yeah, one could interpret it that way, and heck, I can see a bit why they did; I’ll admit that much.
But here’s what you’re missing: I didn’t originally call it fundamentally/inherently outdated. I called it outdated in that it now clashes with the actual message that Jacob’s church delivered. It’s outdated for people used to modern settings, such as Joyce.
And by the way, I also ragged on about how Joyce’s preferred setting turned out to be a trap for insidiously putting in more evil messages. And as has been shown, that was indeed a setting that also did rule by intimidation and fear, yet without pomp and ceremony. So do not assume I’m not aware of this.
And frankly, I do very strongly believe that organised religion -is- pretty damn outdated, no matter the setting. That’s why I did (jokingly, by the way) suggest Wicca to Joyce; because of how it’s nowhere near as organised. (I mean, I’m not a great fan of religion in general, but organised religion just takes the cake.)
And yet there are modern people who do react well to both the message and the setting of church’s like Jacob. I’m not sure it’s any actual conflict between message and setting, but just between what Joyce has been taught/indoctrinated worship is supposed to be like and what this was.
You way overestimate the power of the church at that time. The pope had very little power in the Middle Ages. It took weeks to send a message from Rome to London and the nearest guy with a small army ruled.
Stained glass is a durable art form, absent bombs and sacking of cities. It portrays doctrine in symbolic terms that directly address deep feelings and are accessible to illiterates. Any almost every one was illiterate.
Oppression in the Middle Ages was much more to do with your local sword wielding man than a church you visited twice a year. An all powerful pope is a Protestant boogie man even though Protestant ruler were not at all different from catholic ones.
For example, the Spanish Inquisition was much more a Spanish thing than enforced by Rome and based on internal matters. English monarchs were just as harsh but controlled their history better. Most of my ancestors were oppressed by powerful civil rulers not stained glass.
It’s extremely common in the modern view of the Church to see the Catholic Church, and by extension the churches that are closely related to it, portrayed as a bully out mostly to reinforce feudal behavior and extract their tithe from the peasantry. There’s certainly an element of truth to that, I’m not about to debate it, but a few things are worth noting:
First, of course, the ceremonies of the modern Catholic church are not those practiced a thousand years ago. The Holy See has reformed itself, first in the Counter-Reformation, and then over the past few centuries through more social means.
Second, the Church was run by priests. While today that image might bring to mind televangelists and pedophiles, among more friendly concepts, the Church was not exclusively an oppressive organization, and was a mediator between lord and subject. Not to mention they also kept records, and the priests themselves often knew the most medicine in villages, serving as healers when necessary.
Third and finally, the ceremonies of the Catholic Church weren’t fabricated to enslave and belittle those who attended mass — most evolved from the ceremony that early Christians constructed, growing more elaborate as time went on.
For sure the last point is bunkus. Given the initial scattering of Christians after Jerusalem was sacked in 70 AD, the subsequent fragmentation of culture as they went underground over hundreds of years, and the eventual bloody consolidation as various sects were killed off by the dominant strain, it’s pretty unlikely there was anything like “early christian ceremonies” left by even the 500s, let alone modern times.
I think the sense of continuity, however vague, is more important than any actual similarity to early Christian rite.
I’m saying that very sense of continuity is definitely illusory.
Sure, but that doesn’t matter, because it’s all about the sense, not the reality.
I’m not saying they resemble or even really descend from the original rites, they’ve been modified past any of that. I’m saying that the Pope didn’t one day say “How can I get more grain out of these idiots?” and then devised a whole new ceremony to make them feel worthless.
Considering some of the popes that’s been in the vatican over the centuries, I honestly would not be surprised if one of them did do exactly that.
“Considering some of the popes that’s been in the vatican over the centuries, I honestly would not be surprised if one of them did do exactly that.”
This, so much. Pope Francis is warm and cuddly, but don’t forget that his (distant) predecessors led troops into battle, called Crusades, and engaged in nepotism and theft and murder—-the list goes on. They actually ruled significant swathes of land for a good period of time, they were called the Papal States.
“most evolved from the ceremony that early Christians constructed, growing more elaborate as time went on.” I guess I interpreted this to mean the rites were descended from the original rites.
Indulgences were almost exactly “How can I get more grain out of these idiots?” And that was far from the only invention. There were popes that sought to increase the power of the church through any means necessary, both through manipulation of kings and politics, and by manipulating the masses.
What village priests did was not necessarily what the current pope wanted, communications being what they were.
Even what individual monasteries did didn’t have necessarily a relation with what the current pope wanted.
Religion has always been linked with power structures and has been both: A way to legitimize rule and a way to organize the people who where unhappy about the current rule.
Generally speaking, the “sale of indulgences” was done by local priests or a man with a particular title whose job it was to take slips from Rome to tell them their donation above their tithe was received. This reached a head during the rebuilding of Saint Peter’s Basilica where a donation to it granted you an indulgence.
It’s a construction of later years that conflated the metaphysical concept of an indulgence with the indulgence slips, mostly outside the Catholic Church. Indulgences themselves are metaphysical rewards for good works and prayer beyond what you’re just supposed to do as a Catholic at the bare minimum. For example, praying the rosary in a group grants an indulgence, or donating to the building of a new church or the repairing of an old.
“Religion has always been linked with power structures and has been both: A way to legitimize rule and a way to organize the people who where unhappy about the current rule.”
I think this is my exact problem with organized religion, because the organization part, by necessity of maintaining itself despite its size, eventually ends up eating some of the actual beliefs the religion supposedly holds.
Speaking as an ex-Catholic, that’s complete nonsense.
I suspect most of Norton’s comment is meant to be a joke, including the Catholic stuff
Eh or not
Frankly I disagree with your interpretation of the formality and ceremony of Catholic style worship. It’s not that the splendor reminds people how “low” they are compared to God. The splendor shows devotion to God, because it is built and put forth in his honor, for his glory.
I like to cut the crap and look at the -real- intention behind thing, not what the people in charge like to claim what those things are for.
It’s the same thing. Of course the splendor is meant to inspire a sense of awe and wonder. That is the entire basis of devotion to God in the first place.
Yes, Emperor Norton, all 1800 years of the Catholic Church are people trying to keep the man down and not in any way actually practice the faith themselves. You’re sounding a bit like Joyce here.
Just want to say as a Wiccan I’m highly amused by the end of your comment, so well done your Imperial Lordship!
This storyline has got me contemplating over which religious services I should attend. I’m a lifelong – though lapsed – Catholic who’s used to standing, kneeling, and traditional hymn singing. But I’m looking for something more progressive without sacrificing that familiarity (no electric guitars, exuberant, jumping ministers, and the like).
Try the denomination in the comic: Episcopalian!
Or, there’s a website, GayChurch.org, which tells you which churches are LGBT-affirming near you. There might be more than you think.
Very handy, thanks! Episcopalian is Jacob’s church, right? It does look very similar to Catholicism.
Yup, lots of shared tradition between the two, at least in general as individual churches of course vary.
Honestly in my experience– and my experience is pretty limited, so take this as you will– electric guitars, exuberant, jumping ministers don’t actually seem to skew in the direction of more progressive churches anyway.
Episcopalian is the American branch of the Anglican religion, and surprisingly is the most liberal branch thereof. Homosexual and Trans individuals are equals and allowed to marry, and more focus is paid to preventing unwanted pregnancy than lambasting abortion or those that receive it. Liturgy is from the King James, like the Anglican church, which is a pretty decent translation. If you’re seeking something similar to the Catholic Church but more progressive, the Episcopalian church is an excellent choice. Be warned, there is a theological dispute over the communion which is probably worth looking up and reading over it — unless you have a degree in divinities it might not be decipherable, but it may be worth knowing.
Other branches of the Anglican Communion are not all so liberal. The Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney has just donated a million dollars to a publicity campaign attempting to persuade Australians to vote against allowing same-sex marriage and marriages of intersexed and trans people in a big advisory mail-in survey we are doing.
There have been a number of recent splits and schisms within the Episcopal church in the US over various LGBT issues – marriage and the ordination of gay bishops in particular.
Yes, Episcopalian has the “bells and smells”, that is, the high stylish ceremony that you dig from Catholicism.
There are also Liberal Catholics, who really take to heart Jesus’s messages of social justice and improving the world.
The Episcopal church is often described as “Catholic Lite”. I actually met the Reverend of the one in our town at the Women’s March this past January. Neat lady.
Lutheran Evangelical is the most liberal of the three Lutheran denominations in we are of in the US. Last o checked most Lutheran churches try to be apolitical. And my home church (which is admittedly LCMS, not Evangelical) had formal, semi-final, and casual services at around 8, 9:30, and 11 respectively.
So I would suggest choosing your denomination based on how progressive you want it to be and to choose your specific church based on how formal you want it to be.
Ugh. I hate my phone’s spell check. Ok.
…denominations **that I know** of in the US. Last **I** checked…
I mean… both are important, Jacob, and she shouldn’t have to choose. (I think this is a big part of why my parents decided they weren’t fans of organized religions as they both had bad experiences of being told that the way they experienced spirituality wasn’t the ‘right’ way).
I kind of get where she’s coming from. I attended Catholic churches for the most part, and while I’m not religious, I always found the services fine.
However, any time I attended an evangelical church with all the things Joyce associates with church, I experienced so much secondhand embarrassment that it actually hurt. All the jumping around and singing and crying and melodrama and Too Much Enthusiasm. I’m genuinely repulsed by those churches because some little voice in my head is just screaming “Do you people have no sense of propriety?”
So I get where she’s coming from. It’s such a different experience it can be an unwelcome shock.
Yay, a fellow Catholic who feels the same way about evangelical services! I can’t handle their energy; it’s just so exhausting and tiring for me.
I’m Episcopalian, (Jacob’s church!) and yeah, Evangelical churches creep me out almost as much as the ones that handle snakes, and we had both in my state before I moved. But I can imagine the culture shock the other way — “What’s all this staid nonsense? Where are the electric guitars?” indeed!
I like to imagine evangelical churches like the Triple Rock Baptist Church from the Blues Brothers. Every so often I wonder how off my imagination is, but ultimately decide from what I glean that I like my imagined version better.
I’d love to see Joyce’s reaction to a service like that. Complete with James Brown as preacher.
My Catholic School tried to mix the ceremony of the Mass with the energy of an evangelical church because of all the elementary kids and having waaaaaaaaay more Protestants in attendance than Catholics. It was always BRAND NEW HYMNS (TM) that were cribbed from any of the dozens of local Baptist churchs, and I was stuck in the choir because I enjoyed singing and mentioned it in earshot of the principal. It was… not fun to do that every Wednesday.
And then the person directing the music at the school took over directing music at the church and I lapsed because I was done with that when I graduated.
My Catholic School very much Did Not Do That. Prayers and hymns were the proper traditional ones, etc. However, my nuns were perfectly wonderful women, so I have no idea what this whole “fear of Catholic nuns” thing is. The worst punishment I ever got was having to copy a page out of the dictionary when I misbehaved. (It says something that I had a rather large vocabulary by the time I was eight)
Good story about the dictionary.
I didn’t even get nuns. We had one nun who came around for canned food. I wish I could’ve gotten a “Copy the dictionary page” punishment, instead I got “We’re going to threaten to expel you without informing your parents.”
The fact that they have guitars would actually make me less likely to want to attend a church like Joyce’s, since I can’t stand Christian Rock music. Really I have no desire to attend even a more inclusive church, since I’m an atheist and I can think of lots of better ways to spend my Sunday mornings. So I guess that means my distaste for fundie churches is so low it’s in the negatives.
Oh you haven’t heard nothing yet if you’ve heard Christian EDM. I was subjected to a forty-minute session through a taxi driver’s mixtape.
Avoid The Planetshakers at all costs.
>Christian EDM
Christian. EDM.
Christian. EDM
I’m sorry, what sort of fucked-up SyFy Original timeline are we living in? I wanna go back in the machine, doc…
It’s like that Sliders episode where they finally get home, look at a newspaper, see all the things that have changed since they left, decide they’re in the wrong universe, and leave.
…..
I’m the only one who remembers Sliders as anything other than miniburgers, aren’t I?
If it’s any consolation, the burgers have always been disappointing.
No, you’re not.
If you think that’s strange, I wonder how you’d find Christian Death Metal. It’s so strange I can’t help but laugh listening to it.
I’m not sure what defines Death Metal, in the first place. I just know there’s a nebulous concept of “Metal”, and that Nightwish is a band that frequently does it.
hahaha. yeah. i remember that. it was part of my soft teenage rebellion (“i’d rebel, but it would make my parents mad!“ suited me quite a lot
) to listen to christian metal just because my mum thought that all metal bands bite off the heads of live bats… (where does one get this notion?!)… one of the bands sang in portuguese i think, and the line i remember (because this and similar ones got screamed a lot) was “massacre a Lucifer“. i felt so badass as a christian youth to listen to that…
Wait, wait, I want to go back to Carla and Amber! The friends I ship!
Probably my only peeve with this comic is that when a chapter has multiple threads, there aren’t enough posts consecutively per thread. I think it gets too choppy at times.
That’s my only critique, tho; overall this is one of my favorite webcomics.
Same here. We just saw Amber back again after she exited her room. I was hoping to see more when Carla entered the picture.
I agree, though it doesn’t bother me as much when I’m enjoying all the plot lines and characters, like with the recent comics. Plus, I kind of like the feel that there’s so much going on in their world, so it’s a tradeoff for me.
I just love Becky’s continued certainty that God loves her.
(and answers Lesbian prayers, and sends her a superhero on a motorcycle when she’s in danger… come to think of it, she has good evidence here.)
Willis loves all his creation.
Even Amber (thought it’s hard to tell, sometimes)
Ryan, Toedad, Blaine. Lol. Mary?
Loved as essential drivers of pain, and therefore plot.
Also loved for causing the outrage and indignation and “damn you willis”s in the comment section.
Also the “love to hate” kind of love.
The main issue I have with the idea of God answering prayers is that either A. if God did answer Lesbian prayers then presumably God allowed Blaine to abuse Amber and her mom knowing it would turn Amber into a superhero or B. God didn’t answer any of the prayers the girls Ryan attacked
Also it takes a little bit away of what Amber did because God made it happen
Or I’m thinking about this a bit too much
“Or I’m thinking about this a bit too much.”
No, all of that is perfectly valid. This is an issue that’s been a big part of religion for thousands of years. The debate about how a just and benevolent God can allow evil to happen, weighed against free will and so on.
I was about to say, “congratulations, you’ve just rediscovered the Problem of Evil.”
Obviously God only answers lesbian prayers. Everyone else is on their own.
What Joyce and I assume Becky are looking for is a liberal denomination Hot Worship church. I learned about Hot Worship a few years back when I did a UU seminar on adjusting your presentation for your congregation, and that younger congregations preferred the Hot Worship style over talkier services with traditional hymns.
It was a complete waste of time for our church as our liturgy does not lend itself to either style of worship, although when we had a songwriter as part of the congregation we did get a few Pagan hymns to sing.
Something about the phrase “Hot Worship” just seems funny to me.
Also, your comment reminded me that I’ve been meaning to go to a UU service, but I keep forgetting/choosing sleep.
Lookin’ for some hot worship baby this evenin’
I need some hot worship baby tonight
I want some hot worship baby this evenin’
Gotta have some hot worship
Gotta have God’s love tonight
Reminded me of “Hot Yoga”.
Perhaps hold services in a sweat lodge?
Guitars aside, Becky’s character development and resulting attitude about the connection between her sexuality and faith are highly, highly relateable. I totally understand if people are right in guessing that she’s sticking around the church for Joyce’s sake, but, as isolating as it can feel, queer Christian people exist and it’s nice to see such a character doing so unapologetically!
Or maybe “apologetics-ly” is more accurate >:)
Nice pun, and I agree! I’ve always thought it’s really cool to see Becky and Joyce wrestle with their faith and still find value in it. I grew up in a similar situation (I’m also queer) and while I still value Christianity, I’m mostly Wiccan now. So seeing a storyline where someone is able to come out of a Fundamentalist upbringing and not completely lose or change their faith is…nice. I’m kinda jealous in a way. XD
I agree; being Christian and Queer puts you in an awful position, so its nice to see someone likable and independent like Becky saying that.
As someone who is atheist, and understands that religion is based on faith in a higher power, this strip is interesting to me: I’ve always thought that faith is based on a personal belief in a religion’s teachings and tenets. I didn’t expect it to be this… tactile? Like, a change in physical style of worship be this unsettling, or that it will cause such a big disconnect (as in Joyce’s words, “But I’m not sure I felt any God in it”). The differences in beliefs and its interpretation I understand, this not so much.
Maybe you could think of it like school? You probably have a pretty set idea of what school is like based on your own experiences. If you experienced something vastly different, like from another culture or just a different approach, it might not feel “like school,” even though you might learn something in each environment.
Nah, it’s not personal belief in teachings and tenants, there are tons of people who don’t actually believe (i.e. don’t follow) the core beliefs of their religions.
It’s much more tribalism and habituation than genuine belief, imo.
I’m filing it generally with Joyce’s extreme pickiness about food, for instance. She has to have things just-so, in general, or it’s wrong and icky- this would just be an extension of that.
I mean…yes? But tribalism and pickiness don’t quite fit. There’s a very strong emphasis on “feeling” the spirit of God in Protestantism, and that feeling is evoked in different ways for different churches. Contemporary churches like Joyce’s train their congregants to “feel” God’s presence during repetitive guitar choruses. It’s not just Joyce’s picky preference; this is an actual thing. They orchestrate the entire sermon and its emotional beats so that dimmed lights + guitar chorus at the 3/4 mark = salvation and feeling God. (Visit that sort of church, and you’ll notice that right after the sermon, they do this and call people forward to “respond to God’s voice in your heart” — i.e., get saved and join the church.) Picture those churches in movies: someone with their hand tossed in the air, a pastor shouting “can I get an amen,” people swaying back and forth, etc.
Other churches, like Joseph’s, focus on congregants responding to set rituals. They tend to have Books of Days and calendar emphasis and the schedule of events posted on a wooden board at the front. And God is supposed to physically manifest in these rituals. (Yes. That means the bread and wine are actually God. That’s all I know, I don’t know why.) Rituals are a different emphasis than “the spirit of God moving through you.” Those congregants don’t expect sweeping feelings because they associate their faith with acts of subservience and devotion.
Soooo…yeah, it’s tribalism. But it’s also genuine religious belief about what the experience of God should feel like — and who God is. Fundamentalist God is crazy-possessive and judgey, but from an insider’s perspective, he’s just really passionately loving. You can tell because your heart gets swooshy when they play guitar! And ritual-based churches have a God who is pretty accepting of other people — as long as they demonstrate their devotion.
SO MANY DISCLAIMERS. I’ve been out of the church game for a while, and I don’t mean to sound like a cynic. My trajectory was just kinda similar to Joyce’s, so I remember the brain-bending bits here.
Eeesh, I don’t think I can delete this. Disclaimer disclaimer: this entirely reflects my church experience (contemporary and fundamentalist churches, with only slight dabbling in Episcopalian congregations later). And I don’t know as much about ritual churches because, again, I barely touched them before running for agnosticism.
I don’t mean any disrespect to people who still go to either of these types of churches or love them!! You can absolutely tell me I’m an idiot and I’ll totally get it! The emotional beats + guitar solo thing, though — that template was discussed in planning meetings at churches I attended, though in nicer terms, so it exists.
The older “traditional” versions were developed to do the same thing, just to a different audience with different expectations and responses. Often they’ve now become frozen copies of the originals that wouldn’t get the same responses even back in the original setting.
That earlier reply should’ve been @Liz. This one’s @thejeff. I wouldn’t say “frozen copies.” When a traditional liturgical service is conducted as specified in the book, it kind of…I can’t explain it clearly. The outer world drops away. The chatter in my head stops. I can think about one thing at a time. I leave the service calm and refreshed, but thoughtful.
I was thinking this. Despite having grown up in tiny three-family Baptist churches that reflected Joyce’s parents’ views than anything else, I . . . felt the presence of God, I guess in Joyce’s parlance, in liturgical ritual more than any other church I’d ever been to. I get that to other people, other rituals (like guitars and clapping) are more like it, but the meditative feel of an Episcopal service was so much more what I needed then.
I think you nailed it.
Which is why I said tribalism *and* habituation :p
I get the awkwardness of discussing this as an outsider, there were a bunch of strips in this church storyline where I didn’t say anything because I couldn’t express how gross and predatory I find religion without sounding like a bile-spewing monster.
Hahaha that makes sense.
Discussing it as an expat feels a little weird, too. I still have that inside line…went to a Bible college, oh hey. A lot of us queer kids tried to become Bible scholars because they promised us the Bible was more accepting in Hebrew and Greek. I didn’t last long. But just because I no longer think it’s viable doesn’t mean I want to hurt anyone who HAS found a way to believe.
OH geez, this was discussed with so much more nuance and compassion than I used up above.
Okay, so please if you’re reading my stuff, scroll to the top of the page, because that’s where people who actually still believe are discussing how they came to terms with this, and that’s way more relevant. I’m sorry. Any way my stuff can be deleted?
I just think your avatar is soooooo appropriate for this particular comment (and this comment only).
Why no, I never get tired of avatars matching the content of their comments. Thanks for asking, though.
Honestly, it sounds like conditioning the congregation to (only) experience “ecstatic” and/or euphoric mood-states in a specific, communal, and most importantly, church-supplied and controlled form. They are selling a (natural, emotional) high.
Yeah, about that, Joyce agrees. Specifically, waaaay back, ten days after the comic started. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/high/
“I’m only high on Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior!”
Thanks for the very detailed reply, I think I understand it better now, though still feel no less strange to this concept.
Another funny thing is that you can be intensely spiritual, you feel “God” in certain scenarios/circumstances,without any problem of it being tied to any religious doctrine. I personally believe in a higher power very strongly, because it’s something I’ve felt . But to me, that sensation is… beyond what language can accurately portray. So I have a mild distaste for the way religion on the whole tries to homogenize such feelings into a singular narrative.
Ugh.
any *part of it
Yes it’s tactile. All the ceremony (whether scepters or guitars) is in service to that tactility. And all the theology is an attempt to make it reasonable.
No, you’re right; at least, that’s what it’s supposed to be. But for many people, the tactile relationship is all it is. Which makes it just kind of fall apart later.
I’m worried that Joyce might become an atheist.
When deeply religious people like Joyce become atheists they might have a mental break down.
It doesn’t happen often, but it dose happen, and when your entire view of reality breaks apart it’s not good for your mental health.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w49kGD0HUnE
…seriously?
I’m actually really glad that Joyce is heading toward atheism. I definitely get where you’re coming from — the mental collapse can suck. But the soul-crushing feeling from “the God I love hates everyone I love” already broke Joyce, and she survived. As long as Joyce keeps resolutely choosing the people she loves and refusing to accept any religion that claims they don’t deserve that love, I think she’ll be okay.
You know, I really just think she needs to think Becky. If Atheism works for a person, excellent, but it’s clear that God is an incredibly important concept in Joyce’s life. I myself cannot stand organised religion. I am an incredibly spiritual person, however. I am also a queerberry bush. If someone has grown up loving God – not having the who idea shoved down your throat – I don’t see why one would have the need to either be staunchly religious or atheistic, when there are so many gradients in between. I just hope she can identify with the same thought process as Becky: “God loves me whoever I am, and my faith does not have to dictate every other thing I believe.”
It may take some doing, but if Becks has managed it with her upbringing, her dad, and generally all the shit she’s been through, I’m sure Joyce can find her own way too.
I’m defs not saying a person can’t be happy or wonderful without faith, and I respect everyone’s beliefs so long as they don’t hurt anyone else, I just don’t think Joyce would make that jump.
*Sigh* It’s worser than we thought, it’s not the atmosphere of the location it’s the fact the her world view and faith have token heavy hits and the Ironic thing in all of Joyce’s development through out DoA the real challeng to her faith didn’t come from People who questioned her belief but those who claimed to carry the same beliefs as her like Ryan or Becky’s Dad or her family and people from her home church who was afraid of her for sticking up for Beck. They’re the sorce of all her trama.
Ain’t that a kick in the head.
The way Becky takes ownership of her religious worship is admirable. Someday I hope to be more like that, although it’s hard when your parents try to push things on to you, and you just rebel against it out of spite.
Yeah, I’m with God. I love Becky no matter what too.
Again, I’m really impressed by Joyce. This was a Big Deal for her, it was strange and weird and might mean she’s going to hell – but she still went through with it!
It was like eating a sushi… by actually chewing it.
I need to try sushi one of these days. It’s hard to find a place that offers cooked options (can’t eat raw fish).
I feel like there are plenty of places that offer tempura rolls, and of course, there are vegetarian options.
“Sushi” is just the rolled rice wrapped in seaweed- not really anything there to like or dislike, IMO. There’s all sorts of options for toppings and fillings, from veggies to chicken. Can’t comment on the difficulty of finding them though.
Now all I can think of is their last time shown in church together, back in La Porte.
We saw Hank witness, and reject, some of the problematic behavior by the grownups there. Joyce needed him and he really came through.
And Becky had no problem being there. Any of that crap she witnessed just rolled off her back, right down to the Best Communion Ever.
But at some point Becky still has her faith (in a God who answers lesbian prayers), and her best friend, and wants to go to a church that includes both.
I don’t think it rolled off her back. Becky’s damn good at not showing her pain. “Nobody likes a Debby Downer”.
And she was real happy to get out there early.
She was there for Joyce and that made it completely worth it, but I don’t think it was easy.
Good point. We didn’t see a lot of Becky’s interactions at that church service aside from her taking communion.
The biggest conflicts we saw were Joyce, and then Hank (on Becky’s & Joyce’s behalfs). Did more happen to Becky off-panel back in La Porte we’ll find out about later?
i prefer violin personally
So you’d go to a church if Lindsey Stirling was there?
Before you answer, bear in mind that would be a Mormon church.
…Well, I guess if I were forced to be at Mormon church, I’d prefer it to be one that Lindsey Stirling was at.
Only if they let her play, though.
I’d go to a church if Lindsey was there, and I’m atheist. I wouldn’t be there for church stuff though.
^ This.
…. okay, this for me too, except I’d probably burst into flames when I walked in the door.
I’d make the church burst into flames when I walk in the door.
Typo: that should be that’s in panel 4, I think
Hm. It makes sense either way (substitute the “that” in question with “so” for the meaning as is), but I do think “that’s” would be better.
I agree. Using “that” would be putting emphasis on how inclusive they were to Becky, and that just hasn’t been very much demonstrated. I think “that’s” is more appropriate and reads better here.
Churches and guitars do mix well. Whether it’s acoustic, electric, or even flamenco.
From a strictly technical point of view, they don’t always. I’d even say that in Europe, most churches don’t mix well with anything amplified, as persuaded as clergy may be to use money to put PA in any fucking basilic, cathedral or abbey. Hell, some don’t even mix well with polyphony, let alone instruments…
This could actually be a bigger crisis of faith than she’s letting on. For comparison with Joyce’s old church, last time she was there, she had trouble feeling a god in that too.
As an atheist, I’m very curious about this “feeling God” that Joyce experiences in a setting that’s comfortable for her. Like I literally cannot imagine what that is like. Whenever I’ve been in a religious setting and had to quietly concentrate, all I’ve “felt” is some boredom and the certainty of death.
So, I’m a Christian, and I’ve been to a few churches that are rather similar in style to Joyce’s. Probably the first thing that’s important to note about churches like Joyce’s is that there is almost no time in the service where people can actually “quietly concentrate”. There’s a bunch of songs, the worship leader prays emphatically with someone playing the guitar quietly in the background, more songs, a sermon, then some more songs after that. There’s very few still, quiet moments.
My personal view on this is that most of what Joyce believes to be “feeling God” is actually her getting a rush from the worship and the general atmosphere of loud, energetic music and singing. In the churches like this that I’ve been to, often the pastor or the worship leader will say things like “I can feel that God is very present here right now” or “The Spirit is working here”. To take a leaf out of Joyce’s parents’ book, this sort of worship “promotes a culture” of interpreting any excitement or rush during church as a feeling from God, even when it probably isn’t.
So when you take someone who’s been taught this like Joyce out of that space and put her in a church like Jacob’s, where there’s no loud singing or music, people don’t throw their hands up in the air, the singers don’t bounce around on a stage, she’s not going to be feeling any of that rush that her church has taught her is “feeling God”. It’s then really easy for her to misinterpret this lack of excitement and fervent energy as “not feeling any God in it”.
So basically, most of what Joyce thinks is “feeling God” is probably not actually feeling God, but is more likely her getting hyped up by loud drums and a bunch of electric guitars.
Completely agree… and that’s kinda the way she always is when she’s most Christian-y. “High on Christ”, like what she said back when she and Sarah first met.
When I was younger I experienced the phenomenon, but frankly it was rarely in church. I would reach out with my senses, feel what felt like an omnipresent and benevolent entity, and figured that proved God for me. Because I could feel what I thought was their presence.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Might be a weird psychological left-over or quirk from our evolution. But that’s my best attempt at explaining it.
But like you said Joyce isn’t comfortable enough (I think the recent trauma pile hasn’t help.) And who knows what ‘Feeling God’ is for her. It could be participating in an enthusiastic and safe group activity with people she feels are safe.
(Also I don’t talk to a lot of other Christians *cough* I’m queer *cough* so I couldn’t give you anything more than anecdotal stuff, so IDK about other church-going types.)
Ah I wanted to add that for me it was easiest to sense when alone or in quiet, and that location wasn’t too relevant for the phenomenon.
(Those seemed like relevant details to my answer… oops)
I actually read a really interesting article on Cracked.com yesterday about this very thing. It was written by a “lapsed” Christian who was talking about the sense of faith and connectedness she used to feel as a member of a congregation, and how she really misses it even though she’s stopped believing in the actual dogma of the church. It makes me wonder if “spirituality” is more about a sense of certainty about one’s place in not just the Universe, but as a meaningful, integral part of your community. That you MATTER.
I wouldn’t really say I believe, but I would say I experience a sense of spirituality. Could be that I@m mistaken things but for me it’s this overwhelming sense of awe at the scale and complexity of existence, and just like, how small I am compared to it and how marvelous it all is.
And that’s a similar feeling to what I used to experience in Church.
I’m in the same situation as Badgermole, here. I’ve never felt anything other than boredom in that context.
Weirdly, I grew up a lot like Joyce (except her church would have been the “hippie church” with the music and worship leader), and I enjoyed church a lot for the community. But I “feel” God in normal, everyday life, even though I don’t really agree with the religion I grew up in? And talk to him all the time in my head. It’s maybe what an imaginary friend feels like to a kid (and I had those too, only once), but it is very comforting in times of stress to be able to “say” whatever I want to say and not be misunderstood and talk through my issues and ask for help. Don’t know if that explains anything at all!
The thing I used to feel in church when I was little that I identified with as God is closest to the thing I feel most reliably now when I look at the ocean, the stars in the night sky, or across the mountains. A sense of awe, delight, comfort, inclusion, fortune, gratefulness, humility, and that there is something much greater than me that I am only glimpsing a tiny fraction of. I would call both a spiritual feeling. I am a loose “panentheist” by my best reckoning. I know there have been a few articles about how a spiritual feeling might be the result of certain patterns activating in the brain, if you’re interested in neuropsych.
It’s rare, but I totally get Joyce on this one. I was raised Catholic and don’t believe the strict dogma anymore… but I still attend Mass once in a while because I get that sense of God there, even though I disagree with some Catholic beliefs. (I am pretty stoked about Pope Francis, though.)
I’m atheist too, but I’ve felt a ‘holy’ kind of feeling in two distinct settings:
1. Singing in a group of people when everything sounds right. It may not be what’s written in the music, but when the group is flowing together and everything is good, there’s a soul-deep connection and unity that I can easily see as being described as divine. I personally believe it’s why music is such a large part of church and why people who are lonely and looking for that connection or are used to that connection from birth find it really hard to leave churches. At least one reason why.
2. Dancing. When you’ve hit that sweet spot of warmed-up, your emotions are flowing freely, the music is speaking to you and thrumming through your veins, that too feels like I am ascending to a higher plane of existence. I do theatrical and fusion-style dance, and it doesn’t matter to me what kind of music I’m using as long as I feel it beating in my chest instead of the speakers. It feels RIGHT in an overwhelming and kind of addictive way, which when translated to a religious setting is again another reason why I think people stay. There’s something very powerful about having a biomechanical affirmation of your belief.
I did get the religious feeling one time when listening to a religious person. It was the Bishop Spong, who was booted from his church for performing a gay marriage, but afterwards explained himself so well that many of his peers regretted their decision. Something about his talk or his demeanor–which was calm, understanding, and wise-feeling–felt like dropping stones into the energy around my organs, passing through and yet changing them in ways that made me realize things I’d never given thought to before. It was quiet compared to the other experiences, but still profound.
There are a lot of different social and neurobiological studies intended to isolate and explain this very feeling.
Faith is personal so whatever or whoever you want or don’t want to believe in and what way you do or don’t do it should be up to you, just remember to keep an open mind and to not push people away by their own faiths.
This is probably the first time that I suspect that the alt-text and Becky together were expressing something fundamental about Willis’s feelings on a matter!
I’m not even gonna ask about the guy hopping up and dow and waving.
Jacob is being really unfair here. He’s presenting Joyce with a false dichotomy, as though she only gets to choose between her old church and his church, and seems to be trying to invalidate her opinions about his church with emotional blackmail, drawing in the issue of Becky when Joyce just seems to miss the vibrancy and energy of her old churchgoing experience.
Eh, he’s not like FORCING her to choose or attend one or the other. He’s having a discussion with her about her background and HIS OWN CHOICE to attend this church, aknowledging her complaints with the ritual and structure while pointing out its positive merits. I don’t see where he’s presenting at as a “one or the other” dichotomy, he’s accepting her criticism of this ONE and, in turn, pointing out a merit that her old church doesn’t bring
What Rahim said.
Another thing that I think is of value to remember is that Jacob and Joyce formed a connection debating religion. So I feel like Jacob gently pushing her to consider other things and broadening her horizons is in keeping with how they have been together, rather than a change.
I mean he isn’t really talking about his choice and he isn’t simply bringing up another merit, he specifically puts it as more important not “I find it important” or something. Then again I’m not Christian and never have been so I don’t know, maybe that’s normal for their debating to try and make things objective.
No, I agree with Nobody. I think they’re both valid interpretations, but it just feels a little guilt-trippy. I doubt Jacob intended it that way, but it sort of comes off as “well, you didn’t like my church, so that means you only like homophobic churches.”
He also kind of positions himself as defending Becky from Joyce’s presumed homophobia, which is good of him, and given Jacob’s character, no doubt is intended in the best possible way, but it’s still something Becky didn’t ask for. I’m a queer atheist/pagan from an ex-Catholic family, and I think if I was Becky in this scenario, I’d be a little miffed at him.
Being raised in the same church as Joyce, where did Becky get all that self-esteem?…Because I’d like to buy some.
Oh yeah, it took me a wile to wash the majority of that catholic guilt away so I could be me. Sometimes I still find it in hard to reach places though…
Thing is, it’s not a choice between Episcopal and Evangelical. There are churches (like the United Church of Christ, for instance) who avoid all the high ritual, but who are also welcoming to all. I would hate to see Joyce lose her faith over something like that.
Even in the Episcopal Church you can go High Church (“smells, bells, and yells (chanting)”) or Low Church (none of that and probably no music either). Most people just pick the one they like the best and don’t talk smack about the other one. My congregation does both a Low service, for the early birds who like it quiet, and a High service, for everybody else, most Sundays.
As someone who doesn’t go to the church I’ve known my entire life because I know they would never support me and who I wish to marry, I appreciate Becky’s outlook, even if it’s just to voice it to potentially comfort Joyce.
I’m not sure if I believe Becky’s statement fully – it’s hard not to have guilt in a religious upbringing like the one she has – but I like to think this is the decision that she’s made, which if she’s comfortable with, then that’s all that matters.
Religion shouldn’t dictate who people love. It gives us ideals and strengths to live by, certainly, but whatever power is out there, I don’t believe it would allow us to love if it hated it. That’s just my general outlook at least.
I am interested in seeing where this goes though – Jacob is honest and trying to give her a different outlook. I love that he doesn’t put up with Joyce’s nice answer first, but he doesn’t seem pushy either that she SHOULD be HERE just because of faith. That’s really respectful in my eyes and it’s appreciated.
I suppose you COULD see him as being disrespectful by being like ‘shouldn’t you like this more because of Becky’ but I don’t think so? It doesn’t come off that way to me – it’s not as black and white as I originally stated (life rarely is though).
Oh and if you want a really enlightening book about religion, try “Small gods” by Terry Pratchett.
I love that book to death, but I don’t think its the best resource for a serious study of religion. Heck, even if we stick within Terry Pratchett, I think Nation does that better. And I really think they should read some actual scholarly work on the concept of religion
What’s fascinating here is Becky. She grew up in a church that hates her, but she’s convinced that her God doesn’t. So, what the church says or does is meaningless nonsense and she doesn’t even need to go if she doesn’t want to, because the God she prays to and believes in is always right there with her, supporting her through adversity.
Like, she’s not being fully honest here, people using faith to justify mistreating her is one of the most common parts where her mask absolutely drops and she shows how upset she is. But she definitely doesn’t see Church and its doctrines and formats as being important to her faith.
And I think it’s why her faith endures. They can never chisel into her and make her doubt her God only the people chiseling’s ability to speak for said God. For Joyce though, it’s all about the Church. The doctrine and the culture and the format and a much more illusive idea of God as an antagonist waiting for one fuck up to send you to hell.
And so for Joyce, she dreads that once she lets go of the format, then she’ll lose God as well, because she’s not seeing what she’s accustomed to seeing God in in any other Church, because she associates the Church with being the sole moral authority of God.
And yes, this does mean that Becky has her own… personal… Jesus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI
I think the Jesus that Becky believes in might have worked at Shortpacked! for a few years.
It’s not surprising, You actually find more variations of christ and areas where people are more accepting towards LGBTQ in certain churches. The bible wasn’t written in one langauge, nor was it thought of one form. Some people think god is a guy with a big white beard, some people think it’s a woman spreading warmth and cheer in fact.
Everyone’s view of heaven is different at the end of the day.
There needs to be more ways to agree with this. That is all.
I like becky
“Emotional high,” Joyce. The phrase you’re looking for is “emotional high,” not “God.”
I had to put my dog down yesterday so my usual ‘check comic to see the strip’ routine completely escaped my mind til now. I’m feeling better today, doggo was old and sick and had been suffering. As for the actual comic, I’m glad Joyce could be honest with him! Such a huge change has to be kinda striking. But change isn’t always bad. And Becky being Becky as always~ Props to Jacob for trying to be inclusive at least, as much as Becky loves guitars I’m sure she enjoyed getting to go to a church and not be whispered about and talked down to. (aka the church she grew up with and went on a Sunday with Joyce after everything with her father went down.)
I am deeply sorry for your loss. My dog is my best friend for forever, but she just had her ninth birthday, and I’m forced to realise the end might be near. I’m sorry for your loss, and i hope you have support.
Thank you Lapin! It’s been rough, Saturday was truly the worst day of my life, but I feel better now. Thankfully my parents, friends, and neighbors have all been very kind and caring. I’m sorry that your doggy isn’t in good health and I’ll be hoping the best for her! It’s gonna be rough and I hope you’ll be alright too. Just remember that you gave her a good 9 years, that you gave her a home and love that not all pets get to experience. These are the thoughts that keep me going and I hope they will help you as well.
TBH, she’s in great health, it’s just everyone going “Well, labs only live 9-12 years” that has me deeply paranoid and anxious. Like, my Molly is in genuine great health, to the point the vet says she might have a good long life ahead of her, but everyone keeps saying “yeah, get ready for her to die soon”. I’m not kidding, people have genuinely said that like it’s a casual fact to pass on.
Again, I’m sorry for your loss.
Yeesh, I’m so sorry. That’s stressful as hell. I’ve never had anyone say that to me thankfully, but I’m sorry that people are making you anxious for your poor puppo. You know her better than anybody, so if you and the vet think she’s alright, I think you’re on the money.
Thank you again, I am genuinely touched that you left a comment expressing condolences for my loss. I wasn’t really expecting any responses so it feels good. Things are still rough and I think they’ll continue to be rough every morning I wake up without her in my bed but time heals all wounds and I have tons of amazing memories with her. I wouldn’t trade them for anything. <3
I adore Joyce here and how her wheels refuse to turn. She gets a one-two punch to her faith, and just grinds to a halt.
Punch one: she went to a church service that had the same message, but stripped out all the modern theatrics. Ritual over a wholesome mini-concert who’s entire purpose is essentially to say “You’re better than them and you deserve it all” (at least, every single one of those pop-up gym churches with the overhead projector I’ve ever been to in my life has been that). Lo and behold, when the wholesome modern teen concert that tells you you’re special was stripped away, there was nothing. The church service that is closer to where the entire faith came from in the first place gave her exactly zero. That SHOULD tell her that maybe it’s not God that struck her at all in the first place.
Punch the second: The place she loved and felt God told her friend to fuck off, and the place she didn’t feel God welcomes her. Thankfully, Joyce has gotten beyond that stumbling block most other people of faith trip up on which is “THEN THAT MEANS MY FRIEND IS BAD”, so this SHOULD throw Joyce for a big old loop.
I especially love this storyline: I grew up in a Episcopal private school, so went to a ton of church services like that. My mother was also all about the modern contemporary faith revolution, where ad-hoc churches gather in convention centers or school gyms or abandoned big box store buildings and hold grassroots services. (oddly enough, she’d wander over to another one as soon as they started doing what all other churches do: incessantly asking for money to pay for bigger buildings and better equipment and cars and shit. It’s almost like that was the point of them to begin with!)
So I got to see both from basically day one: people who went for ritual and obligation and heard nothing that challenged their faith for basically thirty years straight, and people who wanted to belong and be loved so fucking badly they’d close their eyes and raise their hands and babble nonsense because they felt the INTENSE POWER of a room full of 500 people mumble a standard contemporary worship song while reading lyrics from an overhead projector.
The instant I got to college and realized the best groups of people I’d ever met didn’t even wander close to doing either of those things, I dropped my faith at lightspeed. Can’t wait to see if Joyce does the same.
Has joyce been to church since her latest big upheaval in ideals? Is it possible she just can’t feel god in any service anymore?
She went to church last week, comic time. She didn’t have fun there either.
C’mon, a church service isn’t really rocking out until you get to sing both Holy, Holy, Holy and Faith of Our Fathers. Guitar, feh.
Aaaand after a brief, one-strip break, I can go back to disliking Becky.