I dunno. I personally love the fact that Joyce…
– heard what Dorothy was saying
– processed it
– and changed her story to adapt to Dorothy’s POV.
–
Did she do it perfectly? Apparently not, given Dorothy’s issues was apparently more “the story,” than specifically “a pre-destination” story.
But Dorothy literally said: “I think we’re MORE meaningful if being together is a choice We made, ourselves.”
~panel beat~
Joyce: “Yes! We made our own destiny, against the will of the cosmos!”
Feels way more “romantic and writer” than “Christian atheist” to me, anyway.
Also glad everybody who’s been saying this is one of Joyce’s character quirks has been vindicated! Not that we needed it, mind, what with all the years of proof. Still feels nice that it’s coming up in the text so directly.
Genuinely: this is a brave comment, may we all strive to be as brave.
.
Read something the other day about a science teacher who had his whole class chanting, “What happens the second we admit we were wrong? We stop being wrong!” Which I think is a great attitude to have towards the whole thing.
.
(I’m definitely not quoting it right but the emphasis was on the idea that the quickest way to stop being wrong is to admit to your mistake.)
For me, Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce were absolutely galvanized by the moment where Joyce was kidnapped by Blaine. Anything up to that point, Dorothy was always very fond of Joyce and even once told Walky that she loves Joyce albeit in a platonic way at that time (evidence right here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/exclusivity/ ) but the fear of losing Joyce definitely unlocked something for Dorothy.
I think a major idea behind that plot point is that it’s clarifying. The realization that it’s possible to lose Joyce made Dorothy realize how devastating that would be to her, which triggered further thinking about it. But I infer that it would have been devastating before as well, and thus had she, say, gone off to Yale before having that realization, the devastation would still have happened, or she thinks that it would anyway.
That’s a really good point! If Dorothy had that sort of crushing realization at Yale, coupled with the feeling that she can’t actually achieve her unrealistic goals, and Dorothy would probably follow the same path she wound up following in the Walkyverse comics.
Dwampre Scorrigank
I haven’t read walkverse recently enough but yeah, that would have been an absolute nightmare to combine realizing she left Joyce, abandoning goals, and severe burnout in a high-pressure academic environment surrounded by high-acheivers. Ironic that a literal nightmare prevented that hypothetical outcome.
I think a major idea behind that plot point is that it’s clarifying. The realization that it’s possible to lose Joyce made Dorothy realize how devastating that would be to her, which triggered further thinking about it. But I infer that it would have been devastating before as well, and thus had she, say, gone off to Yale before having that realization, the devastation would still have happened, or she thinks that it would anyway, in light of the new thinking.
Well, the important thing is that Dorothy is once again telling Joyce that her feelings are stupid and she shouldn’t have them, and the things she thinks are important are not important.
See I thought Dorothy telling Joyce her feelings was actually very well-written, but the part where Dorothy swallow a baby whole was just shock value. I mean, at least make it an evil baby, Willis.
The thing is that Joyce’s feelings are stupid in this case. Her fantasies are childish and she should be disabused of them because they’re not conducive to a healthy, long-term relationship. Joyce does not live in a fairy tale, and it’s high time she was made to acknowledge that.
Okay, I agree that this view from Joyce is not fairly healthy, but kinda disagree with everything else. I can give my reasons why, but it might take a while to respond, as I type slow.
Not all stories are fairy tales.
–
Many non-fairy tale stories still have epic plots, subplots, and other elements.
–
Many often even involve love.
–
Many are even non-fiction.
–
Psychologically speaking, practically all of our event memories are stored in our brains in the form of stories, narratives, etc. It’s one of the reasons, anthropologically speaking, millennia of oral history was often transmitted via stories.
–
It’s why the art of storytelling is a key element of my data analysis curriculum (and indeed, most data analysis curricula): we understand and remember things better when they are organized into story frameworks.
–
It’s just…human.
They’re having a banal conversation, it’s fine. Dorothy’s sharing her views. Walky and Lucy were a disaster because Walky never shared what he was thinking about things like this. (on the other hand, Joe and Joyce communicated much better than average, until Destiny needed them not to)
but on a different level, it is a story, their universe does have an author. They weren’t pre-ordained from the beginning, but at some point partway through they did get destined, and it feels like in recent storylines, the fabric of their reality was working pretty hard to get them together.
So the added emphasis was Joyce slightly altering/fudging the events of that memory. Which, of course, in real life people do basically every time they access a memory. Kinda like smudging that day’s thumbprints on an old photo. Remember something enough times and it gets cloudier and cloudier.
—
It’s kinda hard to be sure when using the original strips as a point of comparison, but some of the positional details seem… a bit inconsistent? I think??? between that old strip and the two immediately following it.
As several people pointed out yesterday: All the memories we saw were from DOROTHY’s point of view. Those are probably Dorothy’s potentially inconsistent memories.
nods sagely at all my own comments yesterday
.
(For real tho, I hope people who were feeling pressured to accept Joyce’s version of events as canon — and there have been a bunch of those people over the last few weeks — are feeling better now.)
this is like that one episode of Pokemon where Ash reminisces about the day he became a Pokemon trainer, fondly remembering a version of events that NEVER existed
the dude got bullied all day and nearly died! XD
“ROLL that beautiful bean footage!”
Oops. Wait. Wrong story. 미안해 (“Me-ahn hay” blunt form Korean for “I’m sorry”. No idea why that popped into my head instead of just “I’m sorry” or “My bad”, but it did, so I ran with it. Long form would be “Me-ahn hahm-ne-da”, as if anyone cares!) :D
I am delighted by this turn of events. I think love-at-first-sight style re-contextualizing is cute coming from Joyce as her rewriting history with her rose-colored glasses, but would be super unsatisfying to me as an Actual Thing. I like that it wasn’t destiny and they developed feelings naturally! They always LIKED each other, but they don’t have to have always LOVED each other.
I must’ve missed it yesterday: Where did Joyce say “We fell in love at first sight!” or “When did you first fall in love with me??”
–
I just saw “When did you first think I was cute?”
–
Was it maybe in a bonus strip?
There can be when one puts the made-up story ahead of empirical observation, rejecting truth in favor of what they want to believe is true.
(I say “can be” with good reason. Per the PTerry quote from Hogfather, some fictions are aspirational, comforting, even necessary. But many are just lies.)
I get Joyce’s original story conflicted with Dorothy’s statement of events.
–
What’s wrong with her last panel story?
–
Or is the problem that Dorothy doesn’t like stories? Is it okay if Joyce DOES like stories?
I wonder if we’re getting to these preview panels soon. The outfit is right, and I think the timing must be, too. I wonder what fresh hell Joyce has cooking in that noggin.
The flashbacks ARE all moments from the comic, the only thing that might be idealized/fabricated is Joyce looking at Dorothy in the lobby but even that could have plausibly happened, just that obviously Joyce didn’t immediately get a crush when they locked eyes.
don’t worry about it too much dorothy. Making it into a Big Story is pretty normal when you’re young, silly, and in love, let alone recently wildly decloseted.
Yeah, it’s a common psychological coping mechanism.
–
…I might literally die of embarrassment if the stories I told myself to cope through middle/high school/college were displayed publicly for all to see.
–
When I found someone I COULD share those stories with, without embarrassment…being accepted (even if the stories themselves weren’t)…
–
…well, I married him.
56 thoughts on “Meaningful glance”
NGPZ
Joyce, your Christian Athiest is showing XD
Sarah Lea
I dunno. I personally love the fact that Joyce…
– heard what Dorothy was saying
– processed it
– and changed her story to adapt to Dorothy’s POV.
–
Did she do it perfectly? Apparently not, given Dorothy’s issues was apparently more “the story,” than specifically “a pre-destination” story.
But Dorothy literally said: “I think we’re MORE meaningful if being together is a choice We made, ourselves.”
~panel beat~
Joyce: “Yes! We made our own destiny, against the will of the cosmos!”
Feels way more “romantic and writer” than “Christian atheist” to me, anyway.
Sarah Lea
Wait…were edit disabled, or are they available only on mobile?
Taffy
Joyce is good at being 18.
Astariel
Stories are fun, Dorothy! Relax.
Taffy
>Dorothy
>Relax
Pick one.
Sirksome
Relax. What a bum. Always out here making up stories! I hate Relax!
Dara
Then don’t do it. When you wanna go do it? Relax. Don’t do it.
Steamweed
And now, time for full week’s arc flashback! Let the blue ink supplies run rampant!
Doctor_Who
They’re gonna be star-crossed lovers if Joyce has to switch majors to astronomy and cross them herself!
Sirksome
Yeah, okay. I’ll just keep letting them have this. Don’t trust the fabric of reality.
Steamweed
Those two been done making gravitational waves in the fabric of reality ever since DoA episode 1. Joyce has decreed it!
Dot
Good strip! Glad this is being addressed directly.
apocryphascribe
Also glad everybody who’s been saying this is one of Joyce’s character quirks has been vindicated! Not that we needed it, mind, what with all the years of proof. Still feels nice that it’s coming up in the text so directly.
IntangibleMatter
Look, her Christian habits of everything needing to have some significant origin dies hard.
Yotomoe
I’m a big enough man to admit when I’m wrong. This may in-fact just be a weird quirk of Joyce’s.
Nono
Well, this might be another step towards her pivoting to writing as a career.
Li
Genuinely: this is a brave comment, may we all strive to be as brave.
.
Read something the other day about a science teacher who had his whole class chanting, “What happens the second we admit we were wrong? We stop being wrong!” Which I think is a great attitude to have towards the whole thing.
.
(I’m definitely not quoting it right but the emphasis was on the idea that the quickest way to stop being wrong is to admit to your mistake.)
Yotomoe
:P If I can’t admit when I’m wrong how can I expect anyone else to admit when they’re wrong?
thenamelesssamurai
@Yoto: there’s a tumblr post from Willis about how even if Joyce doesn’t believe in god, still has a thoroughly Calvinist worldview.
https://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/798158721159168000/when-joyce-says-it-was-always-going-to-be-you
Doopyboop
For me, Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce were absolutely galvanized by the moment where Joyce was kidnapped by Blaine. Anything up to that point, Dorothy was always very fond of Joyce and even once told Walky that she loves Joyce albeit in a platonic way at that time (evidence right here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/comic/exclusivity/ ) but the fear of losing Joyce definitely unlocked something for Dorothy.
Dwampre Scorrigank
I think a major idea behind that plot point is that it’s clarifying. The realization that it’s possible to lose Joyce made Dorothy realize how devastating that would be to her, which triggered further thinking about it. But I infer that it would have been devastating before as well, and thus had she, say, gone off to Yale before having that realization, the devastation would still have happened, or she thinks that it would anyway.
Doopyboop
That’s a really good point! If Dorothy had that sort of crushing realization at Yale, coupled with the feeling that she can’t actually achieve her unrealistic goals, and Dorothy would probably follow the same path she wound up following in the Walkyverse comics.
Dwampre Scorrigank
I haven’t read walkverse recently enough but yeah, that would have been an absolute nightmare to combine realizing she left Joyce, abandoning goals, and severe burnout in a high-pressure academic environment surrounded by high-acheivers. Ironic that a literal nightmare prevented that hypothetical outcome.
Dwampre Scorrigank
I think a major idea behind that plot point is that it’s clarifying. The realization that it’s possible to lose Joyce made Dorothy realize how devastating that would be to her, which triggered further thinking about it. But I infer that it would have been devastating before as well, and thus had she, say, gone off to Yale before having that realization, the devastation would still have happened, or she thinks that it would anyway, in light of the new thinking.
Dwampre Scorrigank
My b for double post
Amós Batista
Hold on, Dorothy, her creative side is blooming.
Dwampre Scorrigank
Hilarious final panel, and great comic as usual.
Shakes
I have no pithy comment to make this time so I’ll just say Joyce is a big dumb head
Salmo
Well, the important thing is that Dorothy is once again telling Joyce that her feelings are stupid and she shouldn’t have them, and the things she thinks are important are not important.
What a good relationship.
Taffy
Your ancestors can see you drinking that Pepsi.
3oranges
Remembering things that didn’t happen is a feeling now? Seems strange but I guess that explains a lot of politics.
Doopyboop
See I thought Dorothy telling Joyce her feelings was actually very well-written, but the part where Dorothy swallow a baby whole was just shock value. I mean, at least make it an evil baby, Willis.
AMagicalDuck
You are seeing things that are not there
Dot
The thing is that Joyce’s feelings are stupid in this case. Her fantasies are childish and she should be disabused of them because they’re not conducive to a healthy, long-term relationship. Joyce does not live in a fairy tale, and it’s high time she was made to acknowledge that.
thenamelesssamurai
Okay, I agree that this view from Joyce is not fairly healthy, but kinda disagree with everything else. I can give my reasons why, but it might take a while to respond, as I type slow.
Sarah Lea
Not all stories are fairy tales.
–
Many non-fairy tale stories still have epic plots, subplots, and other elements.
–
Many often even involve love.
–
Many are even non-fiction.
–
Psychologically speaking, practically all of our event memories are stored in our brains in the form of stories, narratives, etc. It’s one of the reasons, anthropologically speaking, millennia of oral history was often transmitted via stories.
–
It’s why the art of storytelling is a key element of my data analysis curriculum (and indeed, most data analysis curricula): we understand and remember things better when they are organized into story frameworks.
–
It’s just…human.
HueSatLight
They’re having a banal conversation, it’s fine. Dorothy’s sharing her views. Walky and Lucy were a disaster because Walky never shared what he was thinking about things like this. (on the other hand, Joe and Joyce communicated much better than average, until Destiny needed them not to)
HueSatLight
but on a different level, it is a story, their universe does have an author. They weren’t pre-ordained from the beginning, but at some point partway through they did get destined, and it feels like in recent storylines, the fabric of their reality was working pretty hard to get them together.
RassilonTDavros
So the added emphasis was Joyce slightly altering/fudging the events of that memory. Which, of course, in real life people do basically every time they access a memory. Kinda like smudging that day’s thumbprints on an old photo. Remember something enough times and it gets cloudier and cloudier.
—
It’s kinda hard to be sure when using the original strips as a point of comparison, but some of the positional details seem… a bit inconsistent? I think??? between that old strip and the two immediately following it.
Sarah Lea
As several people pointed out yesterday: All the memories we saw were from DOROTHY’s point of view. Those are probably Dorothy’s potentially inconsistent memories.
Li
nods sagely at all my own comments yesterday
.
(For real tho, I hope people who were feeling pressured to accept Joyce’s version of events as canon — and there have been a bunch of those people over the last few weeks — are feeling better now.)
NGPZ
this is like that one episode of Pokemon where Ash reminisces about the day he became a Pokemon trainer, fondly remembering a version of events that NEVER existed
the dude got bullied all day and nearly died! XD
Cholma
“ROLL that beautiful bean footage!”
Oops. Wait. Wrong story. 미안해 (“Me-ahn hay” blunt form Korean for “I’m sorry”. No idea why that popped into my head instead of just “I’m sorry” or “My bad”, but it did, so I ran with it. Long form would be “Me-ahn hahm-ne-da”, as if anyone cares!) :D
Foxtastic
I am delighted by this turn of events. I think love-at-first-sight style re-contextualizing is cute coming from Joyce as her rewriting history with her rose-colored glasses, but would be super unsatisfying to me as an Actual Thing. I like that it wasn’t destiny and they developed feelings naturally! They always LIKED each other, but they don’t have to have always LOVED each other.
Sarah Lea
I must’ve missed it yesterday: Where did Joyce say “We fell in love at first sight!” or “When did you first fall in love with me??”
–
I just saw “When did you first think I was cute?”
–
Was it maybe in a bonus strip?
Icalasari
I mean, technically, it was pre-ordained. It’s just their universe’s god is David Willis
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Wait, so Joyce is just a Western version of Haruhi Suzumiya?
Or is that Dorothy?
Dina is the epser, obviously, but who is the time traveler, and who is the alien witch who is actually the avatar of an incomprehensible cosmic force?
Lys
Dorothy, stories are the most basic way in which humans understand the world, there’s nothing wrong with it.
StClair
There can be when one puts the made-up story ahead of empirical observation, rejecting truth in favor of what they want to believe is true.
(I say “can be” with good reason. Per the PTerry quote from Hogfather, some fictions are aspirational, comforting, even necessary. But many are just lies.)
Sarah Lea
I get Joyce’s original story conflicted with Dorothy’s statement of events.
–
What’s wrong with her last panel story?
–
Or is the problem that Dorothy doesn’t like stories? Is it okay if Joyce DOES like stories?
Trying my best
I wonder if we’re getting to these preview panels soon. The outfit is right, and I think the timing must be, too. I wonder what fresh hell Joyce has cooking in that noggin.
DiDi
OK so having all these “flashbacks” be from the idealized memories that Joyce was conjuring makes this a lot more bearable.
Doopyboop
The flashbacks ARE all moments from the comic, the only thing that might be idealized/fabricated is Joyce looking at Dorothy in the lobby but even that could have plausibly happened, just that obviously Joyce didn’t immediately get a crush when they locked eyes.
Zamperla
snrts softly
don’t worry about it too much dorothy. Making it into a Big Story is pretty normal when you’re young, silly, and in love, let alone recently wildly decloseted.
Sarah Lea
Yeah, it’s a common psychological coping mechanism.
–
…I might literally die of embarrassment if the stories I told myself to cope through middle/high school/college were displayed publicly for all to see.
–
When I found someone I COULD share those stories with, without embarrassment…being accepted (even if the stories themselves weren’t)…
–
…well, I married him.
What's in Joyce's burrito?
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