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Joyce and Becky form a new Legion of Doom specifically to torment Dorothy. Carla also joins, not because she has anything against Dorothy specifically, just on principle.
Carla’s torn. On one hand, joining their organization would require going along with them and she’s almost as fiercely independent as Sal. On the other hand, sweet pranks.
Haha, very nice Dorothy. Finally standing up for your self a little bit! Now go study or visit Yale or whatever it is you would have been doing if you hadn’t let Billie shame into taking care of Joyce like the toddler she sometimes acts like. I hope of these lovable dorks can do some much needed commutation in this story arc.
Between the “toddler” remark and that violent shit you were spewing the other day, do you ever stop to think that maybe you come across as just sliiiightly bigoted toward neurodivergent people? It’s really creepy, and if that’s not how you want to sound you should probably re-examine the shitty things you say.
I mean, Joyce asked her to ‘research life drawing courses’, but Dorothy is giving her a lot more than she asked for – a sit in for a course *today* AND a sketchpad.
The conflict is, I think, not really “Joyce doesn’t need help”. Joyce needs help, we all need help from our friends sometimes. It’s just that Dorothy’s method of help is a bit too intense and suffocating sometimes.
I officially had a dream about this comic! I dreamed that Dorothy snapped at someone saying that if she had said no to Yale. But it must have been a dream, since that hasn’t been confirmed in comic right?
Gosh, I hope not. That would really bum me out — going to Yale was Dorothy’s major driving goal since the start of the comic. Pretty sure the characters even mentioned in a Gender Studies class that sometimes when a lady character has ambitions that aren’t love, the narrative serves to “correct” her, and Dorothy specifically disliked that trope.
I think this is / I want this to be a fake-out, and Dorothy goes and lives her dreams.
Omg i wouldve totally forgotten about that but you reminded me that i too dreamt about DOA last night?? I also dont remember it having happened before.
I didnt dream about the comic itself but i was in a bookshop and i see someone opening a parcel they’ve apparently ordered through the bookshop, and it contains the latest DOA book and they’re super stoked so i smile at them and we bond a bit, we recognize each other as regular commenters (i don’t remember their name in the dream but i don’t think they were a real commenter haha) and they introduce me to friends of theirs who also follow the webcomic. It was a cute dream ^^
I have similar color hair that I always color as yellow because blonde but now I’m wondering if I’m not.
I had white hair for most of my childhood and it went more wheat but now it’s like ash blonde but I read a comment elsewhere saying Americans consider light brunette to be blonde.
I don’t know. I always misremember Joyce has having far lighter hair than she does. I guess she would be a light brunette by my reckoning but in the end, categories of hair color are like categorizing by skin color – a poor heuristic we use to broadly describe vast ranges of melanin concentration and separate out groups we want to put down. For example dumb blonde jokes (How many Dorothy’s does it take to screw in a light bulb?)
She’s been referred to as blond often enough by other characters, I think that’s even why someone mixed up her and Dorothy because she was called something along the lines of “that blonde girl with glasses”.
Here’s a strip with both Aide and Joyce. Aide has dark blonde hair, Joyce has light brown hair. That’s my opinion. (Also light red isn’t pink and dark orange isn’t brown. Just adding that as well. Pink is closer to magenta and brown is less saturated.)
I’m 64, and I’m interested in lots of things that aren’t taxes and beer, like transportation infrastructure that doesn’t make cyclists’ lives either more dangerous or more difficult. And beer. my preferred beer is Shiner 1909, a slightly sweet, malty and only a trace of hops.
And what might seem a contradiction, I like hot rods and other homebuilt vehicles. The one I’m working on now is a cross between a sprint car and a T-bucket, basically a T-bucket with an exoskeleton chassis.
I think it’s close to Revlon’s “medium ash blonde” color. (I’d cite public figures who have a similar hair color, but it seems like most of them bury it under a ton of highlights, which is a shame…)
I’ve heard a hair stylist refer to blonde/brown as distinctions in hue rather than lightness, which would mean dark blonde and light brunette are two different things. Though in my eyes, a dark yellow turns brown, and a light brown turns yellow…
I even know a friend whose hair is pretty much black (close to Sal’s hair color) and has been unironically been refered to as “dark blonde” by a stylist (a story she used to tell a lot, as she was a cheerleader and enjoyed playing around the “blonde cheerleader” stereotype).
My first wife had light brown hair. My little brother was a dishwater blond. I remember one time at a dinner party referring to my ex’s hair as “light brunette.” She overheard and was absolutely livid. Hue could I say such a thing? She’s blonde—what are you, blind??? Everyone at the party was stunned into silence. Now, of course, at age 60 her hair is grey. Our daughter was—and remains—a true blonde. That daughter is now 42, and her natural color has a darkened a tiny bit. I never understood what was so important about identifying as blonde.
There is a difference between Becky who intentionally tries to foster an antagonistic relationship and Joyce who genuinely is Dorothy’s friend. I wouldn’t get as angry from antics intended to upset me versus being hurt or annoyed by a real friend.
Not trying to be condescending, but i do genuinley think the serialised nature lets people forget how Extremely Not Serious the Becky/Dorothy rivalry joke was.
The story genuinely never lingers on it, and even has a few moments where they both outwardly acknowledges that its a goof that they are both playing into.
I can see how when reading the pages one day at a time, it can seem like its more than it is, but i remember catching up and being completely baffled by people treating this very lighthearted comic joke as a major slight that dorothy was secretly fuming about.
My problem is that it only seems to be a joke when Becky decides it is. She’s occasionally used their “rivalry” to say some hurtful things about Dorothy. Things that actually upset her, which kind of reveals Becky has some genuine resentment toward Dorothy. Specifically about Dorothy’s supposed lack of personality/being a good person isn’t interesting critique. These comments from Becky and others, like most recently Jennifer do legitimately anger Dorothy.
Doing unrequested favors to make someone feel ingratiated has its limits. Dorothy reacted stronger than I expected to it not working. Maybe she’ll learn some boundaries.
Joyce asked for help researching the class, not signing up for it and getting supplies. The fact that Dorothy gets upset when she’s not properly thanked for going above and beyond is behaviour that would red flag for me if I didn’t know it was probably more about Yale than about Joyce’s responses.
Joyce said “Crawl out of my ass AND can you look the classes up?”
Dorothy could have said “Sure thing AND no, I’m crawling out of your ass for a bit.” if she didn’t have the time/mental space to deal with this right now.
Dorothy could also have said “Sure thing AND sure thing.” and then done what she agreed to rather than five steps extra.
Dorothy did not sign Joyce up for anything. Dorothy checked to make sure that there was space and that sit-ins were allowed. The ONLY thing that was not asked for was the art supplies, which saves Joyce some running around if she does decide to go to the class, and are still elsewise usable if not (or are returnable if unused)
Joyce explicitly asked for Dorothy to look into the classes Dorothy suggested to Joyce.
Joyce did not explicitly ask to be:
– signed up without checking
– bought supplies without checking
– infodumped while her attention was elsewhere
– suddenly in an argument because her attention didn’t shift fast enough.
To be clear – I don’t think Dorothy’s a shitty person or anything, I just think she’s overcompensating MASSIVELY by doing too much even after Joyce asked her to back off because she was overwhelmed.
I also think she’s not being fair with her upset here.
I think Dorothy puts too much of herself into things, sometimes. She’s an overachiever by nature, and while that’s sometimes an excellent trait to have, at times like this it’s almost a form of self-harm.
Couldn’t agree more. I also think she’s currently punishing Joyce for being a reason Dorothy might not want to go to Yale anymore. Not consciously, just a cognitive dissonance thing.
“Why won’t you just be in the BOX where I NEED you to make me feel okay leaving?”
Just dumb teenagers hurting themselves and each other.
As I understand it, Dorothy didn’t sign her up? She just checked to see whether there was room and whether this particular class and teacher allows auditing before/instead of signing up.
Correct, previous strip she says that Joyce can “sit in”, which isn’t signing up but basically being allowed to visit and check it out before committing.
I’ve sat in on a few classes before, and I’ve never been enrolled with a college. Sometimes ya wanna hang out with a pal/S.O. but they’re gonna be busy for a while, so ya just go with. The teachers never minded, long as I wasn’t disruptive.
I think this being life-drawing classes changes that dynamic a bit, because you’re expected to get feedback from the teacher, and therefore you take time from the people enrolled. Sitting on a theoretical class is fine, because all you have to do is listen, but if it involves interaction with the person giving the class, asking is if it’s ok is important.
Oh yeah, probably some key differences there. I think a sit-in would/should take the absolute lowest priority in the room, when it comes to feedback and such, since that person may not even join your class properly afterward. At most, maybe a quick “Hey, what’d you think of the lesson? Interested in joining us?” could be fired her way, after the class period ends and if she’s even been noticed.
Also potentially weird, while not on the roster or known to the professor as a legit student, to visit a life-drawing class that includes nude models. (Which I hope this one does, and I hope it’s Joe, for maximum freakouts.)
Yes. And it was very weird too with Joyce yelling at Dorothy specifically for suffocating her and treating her like a child then asking Dorothy to perform a service one would perform for a child. This is the long-delayed reaction from Dorothy I thought would have been appropriate then.
the puzzle piece is the icon for autism speaks, I think – if not that, then a well-known “autism organization” that is generally more harmful than helpful
See, you say “generally”, but that’s being extremely generous to that terrorist organization. They know exactly what they’re doing and have no intention of being helpful to anyone who doesn’t want us dead.
I noticed that too, of course. It seemed really selfish of Joyce to ask Dorothy to do that specifically in that moment. In hindsight, I can’t imagine Willis didn’t write it that way on purpose, to point out how unhealthy that dynamic is.
She asked Dorothy to look up information for classes, thats it, Dorothy decided to buy her a sketchbook and everything else on her own
Side note I’ve noticed that whenever Dorothy thinks Joyce needs to do something she never gives Joyce a chance to think it over, when she found out Joyce needed glasses she made an appointment for that day (against Joyce’s wishes) she decided Joyce needed to get her birth control pill as fast as possible, now she sets up Joyce sitting in on this class the same day she expresses any interest in it
Maybe this is part of why Joyce feels like her friends are suffocating her, they decide stuff for her before she even has a chance to decide for herself
I’m suddenly reminded of how needy Danny was early on, and I sort of wonder if that didn’t affect Dorothy’s overall mindset in some way. Like, Danny definitely needed a lot of time and work, and I can easily picture Dorothy just getting used to that and then having that empty space in her brain hallway.
Most likely a bit of both, which is potentially more than a little slice of why she dumped him. I hope she can recognise the pattern in her behavior and like…chill out for a bit.
Ironically, what Danny needed was a lot of time and work FROM HIMSELF. He didn’t really improve while he was with Dorothy or Amber, but only while he was single.
Great point, this could totally be one of the big things that contributed to Joyce’s meltdown (not sure if it was or not, but better than calling it a tantrum)!
Autistic people often need more time to process info and adjust to change. Dorothy’s way of helping, while it might be absolutely appropriate when Joyce has the chance to come around herself, doesn’t give her that necessary space.
For me it’s really overwhelming and I get massive blocks when plans change suddenly, especially when I didn’t choose, including being invited to do something day-of or when a class gets cancelled. Even if I didn’t have any plans unless I am able to shift into the right headset then I either Wont Do It or do it and just feel rubbish and irritable the whole time.
The more I hear of the experiences and/or symptoms of people on the spectrum, the more I start suspecting that I am on the spectrum myself. I am in no way qualified to make that diagnosis, but when I compare the experiences of my life growing up to some of the things I hear, it starts to make a scary about of sense. I have no way of knowing how one gets evaluated for that kind of thing though, and part of me is scared to actually do it, because I feel like it would affect my self image in some major way that I…don’t think is bad, but I guess in a way I don’t know if I am or ever could be ready for?
Sorry for the misplaced rant. That thing you were talking about with regard to irritability in response to sudden plan changes outside of your control just made some rather vivid memories come to my mind, in which I reacted negatively in ways that always felt overboard to me when I look at them in hindsight.
If it helps, self-diagnosis can make things a lot smoother for some people, at least until they can get a proper diagnosis. There are so many gatekeepers in the official channels, all based on outdated/racist/sexist assumptions, that self-disgnosis is often the only way some people can get access to certain resources.
I’m not saying anything one way or another, but if you’re genuinely curious or suspect you may be, I encourage looking into it. Even if your eventual conclusion is “Nah, I guess not after all”, you can only benefit from gaining knowledge on the overall topic.
I’ve taken a number of online quizzes on psychiatric websites, just to get a general idea if it might be a good idea to get professionally evaluated. Unfortunately, the results aren’t very conclusive on these things. If I do have indications of being on the spectrum, they’re either mild (I don’t like using that word in relation to autism, makes it sound like a disease–but unfortunately I can’t think of a better term in this context, so please know I mean no offense), or very specific.
I’m pretty good in social contexts in that I have no problem talking with strangers, for example, but I experience physical pain from harsh noise, am particular about the physical consistency of foods I eat (I hate soft mushy foods like hummus and refried beans–not because of taste, but because they *feel* bad), and have difficulty adapting to plans changing outside of my control, which appear to be markers, from what I’ve been led to understand. However, most loud sharp noises tend to irritate people, and I could just be a picky eater (which would be weird, since I love trying new foods, but it’s possible). I do have trouble making friends as an adult, but that doesn’t mean much as a lot of people do, as it more has to do with my difficulty making attachments and most of my interests being kind of insular, without requiring much social involvement. It doesn’t help that some symptoms I’ve associated with autism are also similar to those of depression (which I know I do have) and ADHD, which while there can be overlap, are still different things. I could very easily be confusing them. Hence my interest in getting a professional to evaluate me.
The main thing that made me think it could be a possibility is that growing up as a kid I found it very easy to either offend people or put them off in conversation if they didn’t already know me well, without ever really knowing or understanding why. My current grasp of social convention and being a relatively good conversationalist is mostly learned behavior; I remember social situations as a kid and especially as a teenager being kind of a mindfield to navigate as I desperately tried to figure out how to relate to people.
Comedy especially was difficult. I think I have a pretty good sense of humor and I love stand-up comedy, but no matter how many times I try to tell jokes of my own, I’m usually met with blank stares–if I do say something genuinely funny, it’s almost never intentional. It could just be that I’m bad at telling jokes or my sense of comedic timing is nonexistent, or it could be that I just genuinely don’t understand what other people find funny. Made it especially hard not to come across as rude when I was younger as my default coping mechanism when dealing with unfair or unfortunate events in my life was deadpan or biting sarcasm and bravado; and I wore that mask for so long it kind of became my default state for much of my youth before I kind of lost it in college.
Actually, holy shit, it just occurred to me right now that pretty much everything I learned about how to talk to people was pretty much picked up from stage acting in elementary, junior high and high school, right down to facial expression and tone of voice, and I’m not sure if it’s something that ever came naturally to me if I really think about it. Huh. I’d never really thought of that before.
I checked my blog and I had a post on the subject: https://opusthepoet.wordpress.com/2021/12/10/well-im-intp-t-i-think/
and apparently I’m INTP-T which means I’ve learned how to think tactically, probably from all the RPGs I played and the squad tactics training I took as part of my soldierization when I was in the Army. But anywho, I’m introverted (no surprise), but somewhat like people, I’m not a total misanthrope.
I am in no way qualified to make that diagnosis, but when I compare the experiences of my life growing up to some of the things I hear, it starts to make a scary about of sense.
It can be such a major hassle to get a diagnosis! But self-diagnosis *specifically of autism* is generally considered mostly reliable. If it’s generally considered mostly reliable for other things, I’m not able to say.
Your experience sounds a lot like mine and I definitely relate to your point about learning how to do the social thing through acting. I did have social trouble, but I learned my way out of it because my “special interest” is people, so as a kind I binge-read/watched everything to do with body language, linguistics and social psychology, and learned that way. It probably contributed to me going unnoticed until adulthood because from an adult’s POV I was pretty normal social-wise.
I figured out I was autistic because of a class I took where we watched a video from the POV of someone with sensory sensitivities and I realised that what I experience isn’t the norm, and that I had a lot more in common with AuDHD friends (and acquaintances who clocked me).
There’s no rush to diagnosis, since they’re expensive and often difficult to get, and really have limited use unless you’re seeking specific supports. If you are interested in exploring the possibility, then I’d definitely recommend reading books and watching videos by ND people. It can be pretty validating and there’s a lot of really helpful advice around that Drs aren’t clued into. I also found it more helpful than resources by professionals WITHOUT those experiences because ND creators describe and address internal experiences rather than focusing on external behaviours. I have a youtube playlist with AuDHD creators if you’re interested in that.
I don’t know how to hyperlink, but this is the playlist so far. It includes mostly videos on/from autistic and ADHD experiences. There’s a good mix of academic speakers and informal creators. How To ADHD has a lot of amazing skills and strategies that work for both ADHD and other ND types with executive dysfunction and sensory sensitivity, so don’t get put off by the name if you don’t relate to ADHD.
Oof yes, I hate sudden changes in plans. And I will be grumpy and irritable for a long time after a sudden change in plans, though I can usually still function.
I wondered if that was simply a side effect of the pacing of the comic. If Dorothy could only get an eye appointment for Joyce for next Wednesday, we’d have to wait half a year to see it happen.
Yes, I know she didn’t. I was rather hoping the person I was replying to would answer me so they would, with luck, pick up on that on their own without having to have their hand held.
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; RESEARCH. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue (which I’d assume is online anyway). Which Dorothy then did. She researched what was available and found one that would work with Joyce’s existing schedule. She researched whether there were open spots and whether sit-ins were allowed.
The art supplies were unasked-for (though finding out what art supplies would be needed would certainly be an aspect of research, and going from there to just picking them up so as to make one less barrier for Joyce should she decide to take the class isn’t a big leap). So yeah, if she was looking for Joyce to fawn over her with thanks for art supplies, Dorothy would be the asshole here. If Joyce rejected the art supplies and Dorothy got upset over that, Dorothy would be the asshole. If Joyce decided not to go to the class and Dorothy got upset about that, Dorothy would be the asshole. But the VAST MAJORITY of what Dorothy did was A FAVOR JOYCE SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
So kindly shove your snark, and I will thank you if and when you do, as it is a favor I have specifically asked of you.
The only thing she asked for is the list – and you’re putting a lot of emphasis on the word research.
Also – please stop using all caps for emphasis. It really doesn’t work with screenreaders. It’s also just not that readable for those of us who don’t use screenreaders. Try italics.
When you’ve rewritten your comment in a format I can actually read, I’ll take another look.
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; research. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue (which I’d assume is online anyway). Which Dorothy then did. She researched what was available and found one that would work with Joyce’s existing schedule. She researched whether there were open spots and whether sit-ins were allowed.
The art supplies were unasked-for (though finding out what art supplies would be needed would certainly be an aspect of research, and going from there to just picking them up so as to make one less barrier for Joyce should she decide to take the class isn’t a big leap). So yeah, if she was looking for Joyce to fawn over her with thanks for art supplies, Dorothy would be the asshole here. If Joyce rejected the art supplies and Dorothy got upset over that, Dorothy would be the asshole. If Joyce decided not to go to the class and Dorothy got upset about that, Dorothy would be the asshole. But the vast majority of what Dorothy did was a favor Joyce specifically asked for, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
So kindly shove your snark, and I will thank you if and when you do, as it is a favor I have specifically asked of you.
(And to reply to your specific protest: you have been linked the strip and can see for yourself that Joyce did not say anything about ‘just a list’.)
May I ask why you think I called either one of them “an asshole”?
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; research. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue
Maybe to you, certainly not to me. I would not at all interpret that request that way, nor that word. I think that this interpretation is a bit ridiculous, actually. Maybe we could use more people to weigh in here.
But the vast majority of what Dorothy did was a favor Joyce specifically asked for, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
Then perhaps Dorothy should have made the minimum level of effort to make sure Joyce was actually listening to her.
You’re looking at the strip right now. Tell me, when you greet somebody, do you often start speaking to them before they look at you?
Because I don’t think that’s a very polite thing to do. I think the polite and sensible thing is to wait until they turn to you or otherwise acknowledge that they recognize you are there and speaking to them. I do not think it is polite to just talk at somebody until and unless you have gotten their attention.
I encourage you to look up the word ‘research’ (as a verb) in your preferred dictionary. I expect phrases like ‘extensive investigation’ and ‘systematic inquiry’ and ‘careful study’ to come up.
I did not say you accused Dorothy of being an asshole. I said that you have uncalled-for snarked at people pointing out to others that (most of) what Dorothy has done was specifically what Joyce requested.
As for whether Dorothy should’ve paused more between Joyce’s name and the rest of her statements, probably, though that is also reading a fair bit into a medium that is a limited series of still panels (did Joyce glance Dorothy’s way? Was Dorothy more in Joyce’s eyeline than comic staging might suggest? hard to say). Given the lack of expression of confusion about what Dorothy might’ve said, I strongly suspect that, while it might’ve taken her a minute to process it (relatable), she had it in time that she could have said something acknowledging (or shifted her attention and asked Dorothy to repeat) well before Dorothy’s storm-off, if she chose to.
Even if your weird personal definition of “research”, Joyce certainly did not ask for Dorothy to buy her things or talk to the professor and set it up for her to go to class that very night. Egads.
Quite honestly, that’s the sort of thing that con artists and abusive partners do – they set up a situation to create a perceived time pressure and sense of obligation, so that the other person does not feel comfortable backing out.
Dorothy is not a con artist nor an abusive partner, but that doesn’t mean that she should be doing this. And she does this repeatedly – this is just the most egregious moment because, unlike the doctor appointments, it’s actually the most low-importance.
It is not my ‘weird personal’ definition. It is the widely agreed definition according to every dictionary I checked. Again, check whichever one you please.
Dorothy did not make any arrangements for Joyce to be in the class. She asked the instructor if sit-ins are allowed, which is an extremely relevant piece of information, from the most reliable source.
Can you please provide the URL to the comic where this request was made and, preferably, the text therein? Because to my knowledge, Joyce did not make this request.
Joyce should remember she’s made Dorothy angry on previous occasions. When she yelled at her not to throw herself as the lust-filled wolves or something.
It really does suck to be ignored. The only thing worse (I mean, in the politeness/consideration sphere, not talking about like, murder) is being interrupted. Dorothy should sneak-attack wedgie Joyce awake in the night, that’ll learn ‘er to pay attention, aye?
I think what sucks worse than being ignored is somebody assuming you’re ignoring them when you’re just paying attention to something else and haven’t noticed them yet, and then getting angry at you over it.
Dorothy might not know all or any of the traits of being autistic. Also consider how Dorothy is clearly stressed out by other stuff as she hinted during the getting birth control mini-arc. So without context she may have felt like Joyce was more interested in Joe and him being rude, rather than her attempts to help Joyce.
She yelled at her for being outright self-centered and ignoring her. I mean, I am autistic, but if you’re trying to tell me something and I am blatantly ignoring you, you’d be wholly justified in being upset with me.
I’m also autistic, and if you try to tell me something without first getting my attention and making sure you have it then you will be wasting your breath, because I will not know you are speaking to me.
I’m not even autistic, and this is absolutely how talking to me works. If you haven’t gotten me to acknowledge you within the last couple of minutes, I’m probably not aware of you, no matter where I’m looking.
Definitely not when I’m staring fixedly in the opposite direction mumbling about somebody being gone.
At the very least, a tap on the shoulder would have been nice. Physical stimulus is often easier to register than auditory, when a person is distracted.
Ooh, ouch.
I just had a cringe memory of someone waving his hand in front of my face to get my attention as a kid. I punched him in the nose out of surprise.
(I was 12, undiagnosed and traumatised. It was automatic and I burst into tears because I didn’t understand why it happened)
And as far as powers go, it’s no worse than being able breathe underwater or communicate telepathically with fish. Now there’s a lame power for you… I’m not sure if I’m describing Aquaman or Jacques Cousteau.
MMm… nooo… making Dorothy angry is definitely worse as a power than being able to breathe underwater, even without the fish communication as a bonus. Being drown-proof would be awesome.
When I was in high school I had one friend I could give a nosebleed just by staring at him. After I did it twice (once by accident, once to confirm) I never used my power again.
Dorothy made herself angry. I don’t have the energy to explain the intricacies of this to any satisfactory degree, but if she can’t handle Joyce being distracted by something for a few seconds while she (Dorothy) jabbers about unasked favors, that’s 3000% a Her Problem. I like Dorothy, but I don’t like this weird behavior.
The favor was asked for. Dorothy went above and beyond. She did all of this for Joyce AFTER Joyce had screamed at her to leave her alone and then immediately asked her to do something for her.
I’m autistic as well, and if I treated my friends the way Joyce had they would be well within their rights to rip me a new one or abandon me altogether. Autism explains the behavior, it doesn’t excuse it. Joyce is constantly self centered and without her friends going the extra mile would have been kicked out of school or run home within the first month. For crying out loud she wouldn’t have been able to shower without Sarah’s help.
It’s far past time for Joyce to have her friends call her on her bullshit.
Mhm. Joyce definitely asked, on-panel, for Dorothy to contact an instructor, get the go-ahead for Joyce to attend the class, and make a relevant purchase out of her own pocket. That’s definitely how it happened and what was asked for, and Dorothy definitely didn’t take things further than necessary on her own initiative.
A favor was asked for, that’s not in dispute, but this is not that favor.
Frankly Joyce would be perfectly justified in chewing Dorothy out for making a purchase for Joyce and deciding Joyce should pay her back (in any form) without even consulting Joyce about it
I think Dorothy’s reactiong is understandable, like she doesn’t understand what’s going on for Joyce, is doing her best, and it probably feels like nothing she does is good enough for her…. but I still don’t think reacting to/interpretting Joyce’s behaviour that way would be reasonable or kind.
It’s not that one or the other is in the wrong, but it’s getting more obvious that their communication styles and expectations are currently incompatible because life stressors have deteriorated Joyce’s capacity to compensate. Dorothy tries to bridge that, but she’s doing so in a way that isn’t appropriate for Joyce. Neither of them really know *how* to talk about these things yet, so it’s just really messy while they figure it out.
I may be in the minority here, but I think Dorothy expressing some open anger here is actually kind of healthy for her (whether or not it’s *merited*, which we could—and have, frankly—litigate all day). It’s not an outsized expression of anger—she didn’t yell, she didn’t make accusations or call names*—she just didn’t try to suppress it, or manage it the way she normally does when something. And it made an impression on Joyce! That’s actually useful information for Joyce.
*Granted, Dorothy DID do these things at Jennifer just this morning, but Jennifer pointed out how unusual that was for Dorothy, and also just found it funny (since she’s Jennifer and has an extremely unhealthy relationship to interpersonal conflict that includes sexualizing aggression and violence).
I’m with you, cerusee. I think both her and Joyce’s reactions/conflict is healthy. It’s honest communication and reveals something that needs to be addressed. They don’t have the life experience to back up other trouble-shooting skills yet, and this is how they develop them. It’s way better that they are able to express that something’s wrong than to pretend it’s not there.
Yes. You’re correct. Joyce exhibits symptoms of autism and as someone who is undiagnosed, she has never been given coping mechanisms or even had pointed out that there are ways to work with the way her mind works rather than against.
She’s from a cult, homeschooled, and has had trauma after trauma so large it would send most people catatonic.
How DARE she??
Joyce isn’t forcing these people to help her. They often do so because she asked nicely (they could easily say no) or because she exhibits a behaviour they personally find objectionable, so they intercede (usually without asking if she wanted any help in the first place).
In this case that took the form of pushing several steps past a stated request literally hours after being told Joyce has no interest in people forcing her through life that way.
I’m sure if I squint really hard, I can see how Joyce is the only asshole and her friends are blameless, but honestly I just don’t want the crow’s feet.
you really don’t have faith in Joyce’s intelligence or resilience, do you? without her friends, she definitely would have STRUGGLED but kicked out of school is too negative
She did hire a guy to assault someone for her. If Joe wasn’t absurdly tolerant, there’s a good chance that alone would have put her on thin ice, and probably seen Mike in even more trouble.
I’m skeptical that Mike would have faced serious consequences for being violent, when “Ryan” and his posse were getting away with literal rape completely consequence-free. (Amazi-Girl doesn’t count as consequence from the university, since vigilante justice is the only kind those cretins were ever gonna get)
Dorothy is ND right? I feel like there’s no way she’s neurotypical. I don’t think she has autism, but she really doesn’t come off as having NT behavior patterns to me
…I say as someone who is ND and just guesses as to what it must be like to be NT
Honestly, I’m starting to suspect Willis has gone through the same journey I have from “It must be really difficult to write an ND character, I’m not sure I could get it right” to “So, have I ever written a character who’s neurotypical?”
Personally Dorothy strikes me as too well-adjusted in her personal life to be ND, but then again, she could be an ND person who comes from that rare family that’s both ND *and* non-dysfunctional and loving (my boyfriend comes from a family like that, and the members of it are rather Dorothy-like…)
She could also be that rare ND person who doesn’t have ADHD. I know one or two autistic folks who don’t have ADHD on top of it, and they’re able to focus wonderfully well on work tasks and daily life needs. It’s just the social and relationships part they struggle with.
Which, I guess, is Dorothy enough. Although I feel like if she were a real person, she’d get along just fine with neurotypical people, so maybe not. Hmm.
Maybe Dorothy IS ND. Who knows! There ARE those whose neurodiversity doesn’t complicate their lives or make it more difficult for them in ways they notice or care about…
Personally I find Dorothy one of the more relatable characters for me and I am very likely autistic. And I do get along with people pretty easily, but on the inside I am anxious and constantly scripting what I will say. Then I stutter which ruins the script of what I was saying and my sentence turns into nonsense.
Unpopular opinion: Dorothy was being kind of rude here.
Imagine you walk up to your friend, who’s clearly in a reverie, and you start infodumping about the favors you’ve done for her (unasked, to be clear, though obviously still very nice of you). She doesn’t seem to register your words, instead remarking on the thing that’s unsettled her. You get pissed and snap at her for it, then storm off.
I think if Dorothy really wants to Help, she’d be better off looking into what being autistic actually means on a human level, then taking things from there. Maybe she will, maybe she’ll die mad.
Honestly, what I see here is Dorothy seems to assume Joyce was ignoring her then gets angry without any proof that’s actually what happened.
I’m autistic myself and honestly I often don’t hear people if I’m distracted, thinking, or overwhelmed in any way, unless they get me to look at them before talking. This has also been true for many others I’ve spoken with on the spectrum.
Also, the people calling Joyce a toddler and/or child seem to be forgetting A) she grew up in a cult that taught her she must obey and not think for herself, deprived her of any agency, and socially stunted her. B) She is recovering from several recent compounded traumas, which can cause people to regress emotionally. C) Many neurodivergent people have executive functioning difficulties that may, to an outsider, look like immaturity.
It’s also a bad take to call a person a child because they have mental health struggles due to the aforementioned trauma and cult upbringing and are autistic. It’s honestly really ableist.
I agree, it’s extremely ableist. And like you’ve laid out, Joyce is constantly under attack from all sides, which absolutely is not a good state to exist and make decisions in. In her position, at her age, I’d likely have been more or less wandering in circles, bumping into things most days. It’s incredibly unfair to twist that into some sort of purposeful decision on her part.
Yeah, poor girl can’t seem to catch a break at the moment. I have a lot of trauma, including religious cult trauma, and mental health issues myself and that plus not being diagnosed as autistic until 19, meant my young adulthood involved a lot of mistakes, meltdowns, anger, and social faux pas until I figured more things out and had a LOT of therapy. People seem to forget Joyce is doing all this without any professional support or even educated support and her friends often infantilize her or steam roll over her boundaries as “support”. It’s hard to grow in that environment.
To be clear, her friends aren’t bad people, just ignorant and young with their own issues.
As someone with Auditory Processing Disorder, I’ve had countless instances in my life where someone would say something unexpected and I would reflexively respond “…What?” only for my brain to catch up and register what was said like 2-3s later. Or countless other moments where I just render everything someone someone says on a delay. Taken me a long time to (mostly) break that habit, and I’m sure many people over the years have thought me to be rudely ignoring/not listening to them.
So yeah I can relate.
I have the same kind of thing, words stay in a buffer somewhere and get processed a few seconds after they were heard.
The way I deal with this is simply by asking the person to let me think for a bit. The problem with that is sometimes, the buffer gets corrupted, and I only have partial information, at which point I ask the person to repeat their request, and though most people are okay with that, some do get frustrated.
I’ve started saying, “wait, can you say that sentence again? I was still thinking about what you said before”. They’re much more likely to repeat themselves, and not get hurt/annoyed, if they couple it with the idea that I was being extra attentive to them.
I am an autistic person who does that all the time, and yet until you said it, I was totally reading yesterday’s strip as Joyce ignoring Dorothy. so thanks for getting me to reconsider it.
TBH though, if I were in Dorothy’s position I suspect I would react much the same way, at least partly because I had to plan this conversation and It’s Not Going The Way It’s Supposed To. I’d just feel bad about it instantly. (And probably get into an anxiety loop about whether I should apologise, or whether my anger was justified, or whether an apology would actually be kind of patronising in implying I don’t believe Joyce can’t handle people being angry with her, or…)
Dorothy and Joyce have shared a room for months and this seems to be the first time Joyce was ignoring Dorothy so much. Dunno if this is something that was already in Joyce and just today is showed and I don’t remember she doing something similar before. But you can’t say Dorothy is overeating for thinking she was purposely ignored because forn her this behaviour from Joyce is a new thing. Also you can’t be 100% sure Joyce wasn’t ignoring her purposely because she was still angry with her.
I dunno about the “allergies” thing, but yes, symptoms can absolutely fluctuate day-to-day. I’m personally minded to think Joyce being distracted about Joe isn’t necessarily an Autism Thing, though. Sometimes a person is simply thinking about something intensely.
You’re right, it’s not an autistic behavior per se.
This is something that shows up in fiction so often that I’m pretty sure, to some extent, it is *universal* behavior, that *everybody* once in a while has been focused so hard on one thing that they didn’t notice some other thing, like somebody speaking to them.
Although you’re right, autism symptoms can certainly “suddenly appear” due to different circumstances such as *more stress*.
Dorothy and Joyce don’t room together. Joyce rooms with Sarah, and Becky now rooms with Dorothy (although it’s only been what, a couple of weeks? Since that started in the second semester. First semester Dorothy’s roommate was Sierra).
Yes, my fault. But the point is that Dorothy and Joyce knows each other for months and Joyce has never ignored her (or anyone) like that because she was concentrated in something else and there’s a possibility that she has ignored Dorothy on purpose because she’s still mad at her.
I don’t have a lot of experience with autistic people and was surprised to learn that they may literally not hear or notice someone in this situation. From my perspective that didn’t seem possible until I heard other people’s experiences.
I have, and I often have noticed scenes where a presumably NT character is thinking hard about something and then suddenly realizes somebody is talking to them because that person finally waves a hand in their face or shakes them, often with a phrasing like ‘Earth to Jake!’ or ‘Hey, are you listening?’
Sure, this happens more frequently to autistic people than other people, but… did you really never see this in fiction or real life?
I do that all the time. I wear a watch with the alarm permanently set to 5PM because, early in our marriage, my wife would call me at work to say it’s 8:00, are you ever coming home? I was lost in what I was doing and had no idea at all what time it was, or that everybody else had left hours ago.
Oh yeah, it’s super common. My S.O. and I sometimes have to holler or throw a paper towel at each other, pause whatever we’re currently binge-watching, and then address each other by name before we start going off on one, or even just to ask a simple question. I can see why it seems far-fetched from an ignorant perspective though, since people tend to kinda just start chatting right outta the gate.
This won’t end well. (Remember “take that,Becky!” from the beginning of Joyce Is Atheist Now. Lashing out with newfound social ‘oomph’ and mistaking it for progress just because it’s new is very much a Joyce Thing.)
That’s… A very strange viewpoint. My friends and I piss each other off sometimes, but we get over it and work it out eventually. I think getting past surmountable squabbles is a sign of a “real” friendship, and if you can’t upset them once (barring extreme examples) without it being The End, I’m not sure that’s actually a friend, at least not as I understand the concept.
I mean, it’s highly contextual. Did you make them angry on purpose? over what? can it be fixed? is it a repeat offense?
I tend to not be friends with people who have a “one strike and you’re out” policy towards friend fuck-ups. Not by my choice, but because I blunder and they decide they don’t want to associate with me anymore
people piss off other people all the time, without meaning to.
Now, if you knew for a fact that something was going to do that, and did it anyway, then it’s time to question that friendship. The ability to get a rise out of someone isn’t a toy. But just accidentally bumping into something? Not the same thing.
I need clarification here. Is it because real friends never get angry at one another? Or is the friendship immediately terminated if one friend gets mad at the other?
It is incredibly normal to occasionally be irritated or angry at people that you love or with whom you are friends. The ability to process that irritation or anger in a healthy way is what a relationship actually hinges upon.
Joyce now feels bad for have make Dorothy angry, I know that at the same time she’s excited for that, but she’s feeling bad. I think in the previous strip she was purposely ignoring Dorothy because she was still mad at her and now she’s realising that was not a good move. I know that Dorothy is overprotective and yadda, yadda, yadda. But she just want to be useful. Joyce asked her if she could find a life drawing class, she find one just for that same day and knowing Joyce has not a sketch pad she take one for her. I think it’s a beautiful thing to do. It’s just so difficult to understand others, you end up always feeling you have do something wrong and it’s sad, it’s unfair and make you want to stop caring for them and close your mind, yous heart and disappear.
DOES she feel bad? Aside from her saying it- which comes across more like she knows she OUGHT to- nothing really indicates it; she moves straight on to an uncharitable observation about the “power” this new knowledge gives her. Good ol’ Joyce.
Given how invested the thread is becoming in Joyce’s possible autism I am morbidly curious to see how people would react if it turns out she’s not.
Disappointment in a lost representation opportunity?
Retroactive annoyance at Joyce misappropriating the autism label?
Rejection of the diagnosis results?
Actually, given this is Joyce… will she ever get officially tested?
Hmmm… Dina will almost certainly call her out on it eventually.
I’d be fine with that outcome, personally. She’s in college, widely known to be a time when people start to really figure themselves out, so there’s really no harm in asking important questions like that, even if the answer turns out to be “No”. There’s already been a net positive from all this regardless, in that she’s started to gain more understanding and empathy on the overall topic, as seen in her interaction with Dina. So if nothing else, she’s acquired and internalised new knowledge.
It’s pretty clearly not going to happen though. Or at least it’s not the current intent. The first actual visit with a specialist would be weeks (and thus years of our time) away. A formal diagnosis would likely require multiple visits, pushing it even farther out.
Even not getting a diagnosis might just reflect the difficulty of a getting diagnosed as an adult woman, not her not actually being autistic. “rejection of the diagnosis results” would be reasonable. Much like rejecting Dina’s diagnosis results.
The narrative is clearly leaning into Joyce actually being autistic and exploring autism that way. It would be very weird to upend that, likely after spending years on it.
I don’t disagree that it seems pretty obvious which way this is going, but Buli-buli’s question seems more about our reactions to the hypothetical opposite, so that’s all I was really responding to. Sometimes it’s fun to think in the opposite direction.
To be honest, I suspect I’d be really unhappy with it. Barring some always possible brilliant twist, it would feel like the author pulling the rug out from under what they’d set up. For the shock value or because they’d decided they just didn’t want to deal with the autism plot arc for some reason.
If it turns out the doctor won’t diagnose her, that doesn’t mean it’ll turn out she’s not. She is. The audience has been discussing this for years and years.
I do recall a decent few discussions about exactly this, going back almost as long as I’ve been reading the comic. I don’t remember seeing much direct pushback on it until it came up in-comic, though. Then again, I mostly remember the fun interactions in these comments, not so much the Native Dissenters.
I am very ignorant on this subject but I am curious: how is it determined that someone is NOT autistic or on the spectrum? Dina clearly believes she is and yet she’s had multiple doctors say she was not. And Dina is the type to acknowledge hard truths if she finds them to be scientifically accurate.
This is going to come off as flippant but I mean it in all seriousness: if you’re a white cis-het guy with social difficulties, they’ll probably call you autistic.
If you’re any other demographic with the same presentation they’ll likely either leave you with no diagnosis or support to twist in the wind or they’ll give you a more stigmatized diagnosis like personality disorder or ODD.
(Hi, I’m a person whose child psych said in exactly so many words, “If she was a boy I’d be tempted to send her to a developmental expert in Aspergers or ADHD. But it’s really more of a boy thing, she’s probably just shy and a bit bored because she’s gifted.”
This means that it’s estimated that something in the range of 40-65 % (depending on the study) of white boys with an ADHD diagnosis don’t actually have ADHD, and simultaneously a supermajority (consistently >60%) of girls and POC who meet diagnostic criteria for ADHD don’t have a diagnosis.
I haven’t read as widely about autism but if memory serves there’s a similar trend there: chronically overdiagnosed in white boys and underdiagnosed in girls and POC.
Hilariously for girls in particular there’s much to do in the literature about how fewer girls have autism diagnoses but those who have it tend to have higher support needs and yet until autistic women got into the field NOBODY thought to ask, “could this be because the diagnostic criteria or expert evaluators are biased against girls in some way and not because being a girl is somehow protective?” It was just chalked up to being a girl somehow making you less likely to be autistic. Spoiler: now that researchers are asking the question it’s coming to light that 1, girls present differently than bots, on average and 2, with all else being equal, a girl has to be more affected by autistic traits and have higher support needs than a boy to be even screened for referral for an evaluation, let alone diagnosed.
And yet only the stats for white boys are known, because apparently they’re the only people who count.
Sarah Hendrix is a fantastic speaker/writer on the subject. She’s both Autistic and a clinically qualified psychologist and there’s some great talks on youtube which are pretty accessible and evidence-based.
Some of the biggest differences between genders (largely based on socialisation) which contribute to girls being under-diagnosed include that their special interests are more often “socially acceptable” but of a socially-inappropriate intensity (eg Joyce’s bibleness, or my interest in people, languages, animals, nature or pop-culture like bands or actors), and they’re more likely to use the same pattern-seeking, logical systemising skills and black-and-white thinking that other Autistic people have and apply them to the social world. We’re also more likely to be language-oriented and hyper-verbal in a way that allows us to hide behind intelligence, chattiness or humour (which is interpretted differently because “girls are meant to be chatty”). A fun lil factoid is that Autistic boys are often refered to as “little professors” while Autistic girls are “little psychologists”. A lot of the time Aut girls do really well at school because of all those skills but it burns us out so we end up breaking down at home. Another way that the same cognitive process contributes to difference is that we often have trouble with judgement like predicting consequences and reading hidden agendas, but boys are more likely to respond by /not/ taking risks while girls are socialised to people-please and so end up in a lot of really bad situations because we don’t pick up things like that /this/ person intends to hurt me.
The thing that is really on-point about Joyce is that /especially/ for girls is that we often go unnoticed through younger years because there’s more structure and the social world is fairly easy to grasp until adolescence. The social world gets /way/ more complicated and we often start struggling there: end up super vulnerable to mental illness, peer pressure, addiction etc. Joyce was home-schooled, so she had the same structure all the way through and college is where her big shift was. So this is where she’s starting to burn out and crash, especially since she’s been riding on crisis after crisis before now which we tend to handle well /at the time/ but because “the body keeps the score” as soon as the ash settles it all comes out through meltdowns, intensified sensory and cognitive issues, and physical illness.
Based on what I know about Autism and trauma, this is /exactly/ what it looks like is happening for Joyce and I will probably continue to rant about it because it’s both extremely important to me and it’s stuff that I know.
((and here is the Sarah Hendrix speech I’ve taken a lot of info from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKzWbDPisNk other references include her book, ‘Women and Girls with Autism Spectrum Disorder’ and Tony Atwood’s ‘The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome’ even though the title is hella out of date))
Also this gets way more sticky when you also look at the difference between white and non-white people. I could hypothesise for eons about Dina’s experience, but it’d be a little bit out of my expertise since I’m still learning and most is around the experiences of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people.
I was an exception in that my childhood presentation was more like a textbook boy’s autism. My mother affectionately called me her little professor when I was a kid as a nickname before I was ever flagged, and teachers who thought I was insufferable would often sarcastically refer to me as Dr or Professor – that’s how stereotypically autistic my presentation was. I wasn’t diagnosed because sexism not because I wasn’t super obviously autistic. People literally nicknamed me the same descriptor as a textbook presentation. Oh but I was totally just gifted and shy and bored.
My big special interest as a kid was meteorology and that one’s not socially acceptable for girls.
It wasn’t till I was in high school that my special interests shifted to what I now realize is “how to mask” and Star Wars. But kid me? Couldn’t have been more obvious if I had a 10 foot neon sign pointing it out.
(Course as an adult I have some weird gender stuff going on so maybe that’s why I presented more like a boy? Anyway.)
Yeah, that’s pretty common. There’s also a lot of boys/amab people who present with more of the little psychologist type, which I don’t think I was super clear about. So far the distinction is made around gender because Group B characteristics are more often associated with girls, but it’s not as clear cut as it’s treated. Dina’s a pretty good example of a Little Professor type, which I love because it makes for a beautiful contrast with Joyce, and because her experience really shows the diagnostic limitations that were really dominant when I was a kid.
(My school friend was also a Little Professor and was tested but denied a diagnosis despite being textbook too bc sexism, while I wasn’t even noticed until I was late 20s)
Problem: I think the interesting thread of discussion here is that Dorothy usually wouldn’t get like this with Joyce, like, the only other time we saw her angry was during the *sighs, grits teeth* “Faith-Off”, so for her to get snippy over something as small as losing Joyce’s immediate fixation indicates that Something Is Up with Dotty: is it Yale? is it newly discovered bisexuality? are Yale and bisexuality at war?? is it trauma?? is it a three-front war??…but all people want to talk about is “WHO HAS COMMITTED THE GREATER SOCIAL SIN?! WHOMST IS THE VILLAIN?”
Solution: Everyone, calm down! We can all agree, Joyce and Dorothy are both unforgivable Satan-spawned queen bongoes who are irredeemable, now let’s focus on how interesting Dorothy’s overreaction is and what you think it means!
Maybe my brain is broken, but I don’t see any “villainy” here. Dorothy’s been getting more and more agitated as this goes on, and it’d be great to get some insight on that. So far, it’s manifested in her over-investing in Joyce, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more unusually amped-up behavior from her soon. She’s not doing super well, and I’m curious to know exactly what she “gave up” to accompany Joyce to the pharmacy.
(Actually I would be like a million % here for bi Joyce who realizes later her type is basically Dorothy, and Dorothy is straight as an arrow, this giving Joyce more insight into Becky’s situation.
Cuz 1, funny, and 2, Joyce really reminds me of Closeted Me.
I totally don’t have a crush on this girl or find her hot! I just wanna be with her all the time, wanna learn about all the things she likes, make excuses for physical contact, and have fantasies of – uhhh, cuddling! Yeah! Haha, just gals being pals amirite?!
I’ve been the dorothy in the situation multiple times and I’m still resentful of the adults (i was an underaged teen) who kept treating me like I was a puppy that misbehaved. If I got annoyed about being infantilised, what happens next is that they would start screaming and they would act like they were about to hit me, and started acting like I was “misbehaving” on purpose. Because all that happened to me, i was more prone to outbursts, because I was traumatized by it.
I’ve also been in this situation as an adult or without any adults around. Heres how it played out without any condescending, pushy, self righteous interference: i cooled off and apologized. I don’t really act that way very much anymore in the first place, at this point. (I’ve also had therapy. It is helping me deal with being traumatized by the adults who kept trying to dog train me.)
Joyce has never really shown this sort of lack of awareness before so I think it’s completely within the realm of reason for Dorothy to be upset by what comes across as Joyce snubbing her (especially considered what happened this morning; it would not be uncharitable to think that it’s deliberate on Joyce’s part).
It might seem a “small” thing, but that’s sort of what the saying “the straw that broke the camel’s back” saying *means*. There’s a lot piling on and then just the one little thing that finally sets you off.
What Dorothy did wasn’t even all overstepping – Joyce was going to need a sketchbook eventually, might as well pick it up now. There might not always be a vacancy to sit in on the class*, so might as well ask the teacher now. She “can” sit in – no obligation is there. It’s an option that she has.
*(I guess that IU doesn’t have an open draw period like more artistically oriented colleges do; Sheridan College had a 3 hr period after the usual classes were done for people to go in and do life drawing, though it was limited in seating, obviously).
The issue with the sketchbook isn’t so much that she bought one for Joyce, its that she started talking about how Joyce could pay her back for it when Joyce didn’t even know about it
How would you appreciate it if a friend bought something without your knowledge, gave it to you, and said “you can pay me back later”
Technically she was joking that Joyce didn’t actually have to pay her back (macaroni and cheese is not actually payment). And here I go back to the trap of responding to the repetitive “Dorothy committed the greater sin” response to what was a really insightful original comment by Sol.
Not just is the “mac & cheese” not actually payment, it’s something Joyce really likes doing. Last time around, Dorothy bribed Joyce by letting her fix them mac & cheese.
I wouldn’t think she’s TERRIBLE even if she had said, “you owe me twelve dollars for this”. I would think it was rude! This is a real thing some people do—take it upon themselves to buy something for someone without prior agreement, and then expect to be paid back money that the other person might not have wanted to spend. It’s obnoxious and presumptuous unless you do have that kind of prior understanding! I dislike it; I think people are generally within their rights to dislike it.
That said, I agree that “you can pay me back in Mac and cheese dinners if you want to” does a lot to change the tone of things, both because it sounds like Dorothy’s not very serious about the expectation of being paid back for the unasked-for purchase in the first place, and mac and cheese dinners are a form of currency she reasonably thinks Joyce would enjoy employing. (She’s probably right!)
Dorothy didn’t commit a “greater sin’, but she did commit the Original Sin and doom humanity to imperfection in the eyes of God. It’s not a big thing, it’s just something people should know.
i’m trying to figure out how to word this…
dorothy’s absolutely allowed to be upset her friend is not showing the gratitude they deserve. She put a lot of work into this and it was all for someone else’s benefit. HOWEVER i learned a long time ago that if you want to do nice things for people, do it without expecting anything in return, even a thank you. It’s not entirely fair to expect a reaction out of someone and then be disappointed when they don’t react how you wanted them to. I gain satisfaction knowing i did something for someone else, how they want to react to it is their decision.
again tho, this is all from personal experience. you are absolutely allowed to be mad at your friend when they are taking you for granted !!
also so are we gonna talk about how dorothy is absolutely on the spectrum or what ? (sorry if this has already been hammered in the comments, i’ve been re-reading DOA for the past month and a half so idk what everyone’s been talking about ToT )
I mentioned this in a comment below, but I don’t think Dorothy is upset because Joyce isn’t “showing the gratitude she deserves.” She’s upset because Joyce is being rude, on top of that rudeness being hypocritical – seeing as Joyce was just voicing her displeasure over someone being rude and inconsiderate towards herself.
sorry, i still don’t think i worded it how i meant. i don’t think she was expecting a thank you, but she was expecting something other than what she got, which is what i mean by “don’t expect anything when you do nice things”
I definitly don’t think dorothy was in the wrong, joyce WAS being rude.
You do not simply start talking at people who show no sign of having noticed you. Joyce was facing in an entirely different direction when Dorothy showed up, speaking to herself about something else.
Dorothy should have gotten her attention before saying anything. That’s both manners and common sense.
The “Dorothy is a manipulative monster”-type comments really weird me out, and I don’t even LIKE Dorothy much. Yes, she went overboard in helping Joyce, but she’s not angry “because Joyce isn’t thanking her” and I don’t think she’s the type of person to do things for people specifically to elicit compulsory gratitude, either. She’s upset because Joyce is, frankly, being rude and dismissive. Yes, part of it is due to Joyce’s neurodiversity, but the sad truth is that often being autistic means we can be rude and hurtful to people close to us without meaning to. I know we autistic people often bristle at social norms and all, but part of the reason for many social norms to exist is for consideration of the feelings of others. And it’s fair for people to call us out or get upset with us when we step on those feelings, intentionally or not.
For what it’s worth, it doesn’t seem to me that alongcameaspider was attributing that assertion to you, only saying that it was in the same realm of unreasonable as the example you offered. Both are assertions that other posters are making, and neither (IMO) is well-founded.
I went back and read the previous strip and Dorothy walked up to her, said her name, and talked at her for at least a full minute. I would expect someone to notice me if I did all that. It’s not about expecting gratitude, it’s about expecting Joyce to at least acknowledge that she is trying to have a conversation. I’ve learned from the comments that this may not be a reasonable expectation from someone on the spectrum, but I’d say a lot of people don’t know that.
Eh, I think it’s reasonable to expect someone to not be rude and inconsiderate, spectrum or not. Is it maybe harder for some of us to NOT be rude and inconsiderate than it is for NT folks? Maybe, but that doesn’t magically relieve us of that responsibility. It’s unfair that it’s harder for us, yes, but some things we just have to deal with if we want to build and maintain worthwhile relationships with others.
A little heedless, maybe, but “not polite”? You sure have some pretty interesting stringent standards of politeness that don’t seem to extend to Joyce.
Joyce did not speak to somebody in these past few strips without waiting for acknowledgement that they knew she was even there.
I honestly thought everybody was taught as a child, as I was by both parents and teachers, that it’s rude to speak to people without acknowledgement. Other people might be doing things. They don’t exist just to pay attention to you whenever you open your mouth.
i was mad at Joyce last strip, but this strip i’m starting to think she’s got that effect (i know it as new diagnosis energy) that when you suddenly realize you are [diagnose here], you notice a LOT of things, attribute them to [diagnose] stop masking them, and start embracing them because they have started making sense. It can feel (to yourself, and to other people) as if you are suddenly less functional.
yeah, i’ve never really managed to *embrace* my depression, but i’ve learned to embrace my anxiety disorder (it just is better to handle when embracing it than when screaming at it, i’ve found) and my ADHD. The ADHD i can get quite euphoric about actually, because sometimes it just feels like i FINALLY know why i struggle – it’s not because i’m lazy or careless, it’s just my brain being wired a different way.
Your mileage may vary, that’s valid!
I have absolutely been the Joyce in this situation so many times at work. I’ll be head-down working on something and a coworker in a neighboring cube will start talking without getting my attention and I won’t realize they’re talking at ME for at least as long as Dorothy was talking to Joyce here. In my book, if you walk up to someone clearly pre-occupied with something else (or just, you know, unaware of your presence) and don’t get their attention before speaking, you don’t get to blame them if they didn’t hear you, even if you’re doing something to help that person out. It’s incredibly unprofessional, not to mention disrespectful. A tap on the shoulder or simply getting into their line of sight is usually enough.
I am excited to see Dorothy take the kid gloves off a bit and have a more honest reaction to things. I’ve honestly felt like their friendship was unbalanced for a long time (Dorothy was giving off biiiig “older siblings’ friend who’s trying to include you” energy up until recently).
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*Carol suddenly appears* “ONLY JESUS HAS IMMENSE POWER!“
Yes, but even Jesus got cross.
Jesus also got figging angry.
To state the obvious, the ability to make a close friend angry at you is not a power to be relished.
On the other hand, Becky can attest making Dorothy mad is not easy to do.
Though I feel that Dorothy was more exasperated.
Surprise, surprise, the people we have the greatest power to hurt are those who love us.
Dorothy wakes up tomorrow to discover that both Becky and Joyce are doing the nemesis schtick, immediately calls Yale in regards to early transfer.
(For comment section reasons this comment is A Joke)
Joyce and Becky form a new Legion of Doom specifically to torment Dorothy. Carla also joins, not because she has anything against Dorothy specifically, just on principle.
Decades later, the LoD plots the downfall of President Dorothy from their secret base under Lake Michigan.
Carla’s torn. On one hand, joining their organization would require going along with them and she’s almost as fiercely independent as Sal. On the other hand, sweet pranks.
No, Joyce, that power is not yours to wield! One might say it’s…
sketch
Haha, very nice Dorothy. Finally standing up for your self a little bit! Now go study or visit Yale or whatever it is you would have been doing if you hadn’t let Billie shame into taking care of Joyce like the toddler she sometimes acts like. I hope of these lovable dorks can do some much needed commutation in this story arc.
Between the “toddler” remark and that violent shit you were spewing the other day, do you ever stop to think that maybe you come across as just sliiiightly bigoted toward neurodivergent people? It’s really creepy, and if that’s not how you want to sound you should probably re-examine the shitty things you say.
Have we been reading the same comic? Because Jennifer told Dorothy she was hovering too much, not “helicopter parent harder”.
Except she specifically asked Dorothy for help finding a life drawing class.
Which, you’ll note, definitely does not entail talking to the professor, signing her up, and buying the materials unprompted.
I mean, Joyce asked her to ‘research life drawing courses’, but Dorothy is giving her a lot more than she asked for – a sit in for a course *today* AND a sketchpad.
The conflict is, I think, not really “Joyce doesn’t need help”. Joyce needs help, we all need help from our friends sometimes. It’s just that Dorothy’s method of help is a bit too intense and suffocating sometimes.
Maybe not so much as suffocating as it is infantilizing.
It’s Not Unusual to be mad with anyone
It’s Not Unusual to be sad with anyone…
I officially had a dream about this comic! I dreamed that Dorothy snapped at someone saying that if she had said no to Yale. But it must have been a dream, since that hasn’t been confirmed in comic right?
I feel pretty sure she has already turned Yale down. That’s what she was “giving up” to go to the pharmacy with Joyce.
I find that very sad.
idk, she did say “to be here today,” not just “to be here” when she said that
(although I do feel like she might go to long without responding and lose it).
Gosh, I hope not. That would really bum me out — going to Yale was Dorothy’s major driving goal since the start of the comic. Pretty sure the characters even mentioned in a Gender Studies class that sometimes when a lady character has ambitions that aren’t love, the narrative serves to “correct” her, and Dorothy specifically disliked that trope.
I think this is / I want this to be a fake-out, and Dorothy goes and lives her dreams.
I think that was just a theory bouncing around yesterday’s comments.
Omg i wouldve totally forgotten about that but you reminded me that i too dreamt about DOA last night?? I also dont remember it having happened before.
I didnt dream about the comic itself but i was in a bookshop and i see someone opening a parcel they’ve apparently ordered through the bookshop, and it contains the latest DOA book and they’re super stoked so i smile at them and we bond a bit, we recognize each other as regular commenters (i don’t remember their name in the dream but i don’t think they were a real commenter haha) and they introduce me to friends of theirs who also follow the webcomic. It was a cute dream ^^
Hell hath no fury like a Dorothy scorned.
In no small part because it doesn’t exist.
I disagree – its called New Jersey.
I thought hell was other people.
But New Jersey *does* have a surprising amount of people, so
As the song goes:
“I’m from New Jersey.
I don’t expect too much.
If the world ended today
I would adjust.”
Love John Gorka. He’s super funny in concert. Here’s the whole song. https://youtu.be/bHNGyc4QZos
Don’t be ridiculous. Hell is in Michigan. For the right price, you can even temporarily be Mayor!
Is Joyce blonde?
I have similar color hair that I always color as yellow because blonde but now I’m wondering if I’m not.
I had white hair for most of my childhood and it went more wheat but now it’s like ash blonde but I read a comment elsewhere saying Americans consider light brunette to be blonde.
Idk just overthinking today.
Blonde is a state of mind.
True blondness comes from within!
But in a pinch, you can get it from a bottle.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dirty+blonde&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS791US791&sxsrf=ALiCzsaI5R-RrkmkLlPHJV2MgIowTEn7TQ:1665721198045&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTlreC7976AhVHl2oFHUvADgAQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=937&dpr=1 seems to be a dirty blonde?
I don’t know. I always misremember Joyce has having far lighter hair than she does. I guess she would be a light brunette by my reckoning but in the end, categories of hair color are like categorizing by skin color – a poor heuristic we use to broadly describe vast ranges of melanin concentration and separate out groups we want to put down. For example dumb blonde jokes (How many Dorothy’s does it take to screw in a light bulb?)
One, but the light bulb has to WANT to be screwed?
People in the strip have commented her as blonde, so yes.
She’s been referred to as blond often enough by other characters, I think that’s even why someone mixed up her and Dorothy because she was called something along the lines of “that blonde girl with glasses”.
(Carla, when told not to tell Joyce about Becky and Dina having sex)
I think she’s blonde, yes. Dark blonde.
Dark blonde would be desantos former aide. Joyce has really light brown hair
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/trivial/
Here’s a strip with both Aide and Joyce. Aide has dark blonde hair, Joyce has light brown hair. That’s my opinion. (Also light red isn’t pink and dark orange isn’t brown. Just adding that as well. Pink is closer to magenta and brown is less saturated.)
Joyce’s hair color was known, once upon a time, as “nut brown.” Now we would say dark blonde.
A few people have already answered this, but I’ll add that Joyce would be considered a redhead ’round these parts.
…that’s just red/green-blind.
Maybe, but I think people where I live are just kinda stupid. A distressingly-common idea here is that “wuz” is short for “was”.
Don’t get short with me, young Taffy.
What were we talking about again?
Who you callin’ young? I’m almost 30, which everyone knows is the legal cutoff age for being interested in things that aren’t taxes and beer.
Shhhh I’m almost 40.
I won’t tell on you this time, but try to keep that behavior under control from now on.
I’m 64, and I’m interested in lots of things that aren’t taxes and beer, like transportation infrastructure that doesn’t make cyclists’ lives either more dangerous or more difficult. And beer. my preferred beer is Shiner 1909, a slightly sweet, malty and only a trace of hops.
And what might seem a contradiction, I like hot rods and other homebuilt vehicles. The one I’m working on now is a cross between a sprint car and a T-bucket, basically a T-bucket with an exoskeleton chassis.
I think it’s close to Revlon’s “medium ash blonde” color. (I’d cite public figures who have a similar hair color, but it seems like most of them bury it under a ton of highlights, which is a shame…)
That’s quite noticeably lighter and yellower than Joyce.
“Dark ash blonde”, then? I think I’ve used that as a point of comparison before.
https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Colorsilk-Coverage-Ammonia-Free-Keratin/dp/B001LFHQYG
That’s probably closer, considering the strip’s vibrant, cartoony color palette.
I’ve heard a hair stylist refer to blonde/brown as distinctions in hue rather than lightness, which would mean dark blonde and light brunette are two different things. Though in my eyes, a dark yellow turns brown, and a light brown turns yellow…
I even know a friend whose hair is pretty much black (close to Sal’s hair color) and has been unironically been refered to as “dark blonde” by a stylist (a story she used to tell a lot, as she was a cheerleader and enjoyed playing around the “blonde cheerleader” stereotype).
Brown, you say.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wh4aWZRtTwU
I’d say dishwater blonde.
My first wife had light brown hair. My little brother was a dishwater blond. I remember one time at a dinner party referring to my ex’s hair as “light brunette.” She overheard and was absolutely livid. Hue could I say such a thing? She’s blonde—what are you, blind??? Everyone at the party was stunned into silence. Now, of course, at age 60 her hair is grey. Our daughter was—and remains—a true blonde. That daughter is now 42, and her natural color has a darkened a tiny bit. I never understood what was so important about identifying as blonde.
Remember Joyce, with great power comes great… something? Anyone remember what that last part is?
Bribes from cooperate lobbies.
Problems. With great power comes immense problems.
Your PFP is nicely in tune with your comment today.
Huge utility bills.
With great power comes great current squared times resistance.
Swear to god this Munroe fellow is up to some dark magic shit. I keep thinking ive read all of xkcd, then i keep being proven wrong.
Which…is pretty sweet =D
Premarital hanky-panky.
With Great Powers comes great fuckery in the Middle East?
To be fair, it was never limited to the Middle East.
Y’know what? Good for Dorothy!
no, Joyce, stay good!
She did what Becky been trying to do for months!
Oh I think Becky’s been succeeding on that front. Dorothy just doesn’t give away any annoyance.
There is a difference between Becky who intentionally tries to foster an antagonistic relationship and Joyce who genuinely is Dorothy’s friend. I wouldn’t get as angry from antics intended to upset me versus being hurt or annoyed by a real friend.
Not trying to be condescending, but i do genuinley think the serialised nature lets people forget how Extremely Not Serious the Becky/Dorothy rivalry joke was.
The story genuinely never lingers on it, and even has a few moments where they both outwardly acknowledges that its a goof that they are both playing into.
I can see how when reading the pages one day at a time, it can seem like its more than it is, but i remember catching up and being completely baffled by people treating this very lighthearted comic joke as a major slight that dorothy was secretly fuming about.
My problem is that it only seems to be a joke when Becky decides it is. She’s occasionally used their “rivalry” to say some hurtful things about Dorothy. Things that actually upset her, which kind of reveals Becky has some genuine resentment toward Dorothy. Specifically about Dorothy’s supposed lack of personality/being a good person isn’t interesting critique. These comments from Becky and others, like most recently Jennifer do legitimately anger Dorothy.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/backasswards/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/usurper/
The joke rivalry isn’t as fun when one person is actually being mean on purpose and Becky lets that happen in ways Dorothy doesn’t return.
Echoing Sirksome. A joke dynamic is only a joke if all parties involved believe it is.
That’s because she mainly cared about Becky as an adjunct to caring about Joyce.
this feels like it’s gonna be a slippery slope if joyce is gonna antagonize dorothy purposefully lol
I doubt it given the conversation she literally just had with Dina, I think it’s simply the punchline for the strip
Doing unrequested favors to make someone feel ingratiated has its limits. Dorothy reacted stronger than I expected to it not working. Maybe she’ll learn some boundaries.
technically, she did ask for help in researching the stuff, even if buying the sketchpad itself was going above and beyond
Joyce asked for help researching the class, not signing up for it and getting supplies. The fact that Dorothy gets upset when she’s not properly thanked for going above and beyond is behaviour that would red flag for me if I didn’t know it was probably more about Yale than about Joyce’s responses.
Joyce said “Crawl out of my ass AND can you look the classes up?”
Dorothy could have said “Sure thing AND no, I’m crawling out of your ass for a bit.” if she didn’t have the time/mental space to deal with this right now.
Dorothy could also have said “Sure thing AND sure thing.” and then done what she agreed to rather than five steps extra.
“I’ll bring my course catalog to lunch” even. Joyce asking her to research them for her was Joyce not doing boundaries.
Dorothy did not sign Joyce up for anything. Dorothy checked to make sure that there was space and that sit-ins were allowed. The ONLY thing that was not asked for was the art supplies, which saves Joyce some running around if she does decide to go to the class, and are still elsewise usable if not (or are returnable if unused)
Joyce explicitly asked her to do this, actually, so, whoops.
Joyce explicitly asked for Dorothy to look into the classes Dorothy suggested to Joyce.
Joyce did not explicitly ask to be:
– signed up without checking
– bought supplies without checking
– infodumped while her attention was elsewhere
– suddenly in an argument because her attention didn’t shift fast enough.
To be clear – I don’t think Dorothy’s a shitty person or anything, I just think she’s overcompensating MASSIVELY by doing too much even after Joyce asked her to back off because she was overwhelmed.
I also think she’s not being fair with her upset here.
I think Dorothy puts too much of herself into things, sometimes. She’s an overachiever by nature, and while that’s sometimes an excellent trait to have, at times like this it’s almost a form of self-harm.
Couldn’t agree more. I also think she’s currently punishing Joyce for being a reason Dorothy might not want to go to Yale anymore. Not consciously, just a cognitive dissonance thing.
“Why won’t you just be in the BOX where I NEED you to make me feel okay leaving?”
Just dumb teenagers hurting themselves and each other.
As I understand it, Dorothy didn’t sign her up? She just checked to see whether there was room and whether this particular class and teacher allows auditing before/instead of signing up.
Correct, previous strip she says that Joyce can “sit in”, which isn’t signing up but basically being allowed to visit and check it out before committing.
I’ve sat in on a few classes before, and I’ve never been enrolled with a college. Sometimes ya wanna hang out with a pal/S.O. but they’re gonna be busy for a while, so ya just go with. The teachers never minded, long as I wasn’t disruptive.
I think this being life-drawing classes changes that dynamic a bit, because you’re expected to get feedback from the teacher, and therefore you take time from the people enrolled. Sitting on a theoretical class is fine, because all you have to do is listen, but if it involves interaction with the person giving the class, asking is if it’s ok is important.
Oh yeah, probably some key differences there. I think a sit-in would/should take the absolute lowest priority in the room, when it comes to feedback and such, since that person may not even join your class properly afterward. At most, maybe a quick “Hey, what’d you think of the lesson? Interested in joining us?” could be fired her way, after the class period ends and if she’s even been noticed.
Also potentially weird, while not on the roster or known to the professor as a legit student, to visit a life-drawing class that includes nude models. (Which I hope this one does, and I hope it’s Joe, for maximum freakouts.)
Even better: a guy who vaguely looks like Joe, and Joyce keeps mentally substituting him in.
Yes. And it was very weird too with Joyce yelling at Dorothy specifically for suffocating her and treating her like a child then asking Dorothy to perform a service one would perform for a child. This is the long-delayed reaction from Dorothy I thought would have been appropriate then.
“Child” this, “toddler” that, just change your icon to a puzzle piece and be honest.
T H A N K Y O U
O O O O !!! B U R N !!!
Way to go Oracle!
OOFA
I am confused and request information on the significance of the puzzle piece in this context.
the puzzle piece is the icon for autism speaks, I think – if not that, then a well-known “autism organization” that is generally more harmful than helpful
*quick googling* Ah, so it is. Much obliged.
See, you say “generally”, but that’s being extremely generous to that terrorist organization. They know exactly what they’re doing and have no intention of being helpful to anyone who doesn’t want us dead.
I noticed that too, of course. It seemed really selfish of Joyce to ask Dorothy to do that specifically in that moment. In hindsight, I can’t imagine Willis didn’t write it that way on purpose, to point out how unhealthy that dynamic is.
It’s a good bit of character writing, I gotta say.
It was also kinda funny, which probably factored into the decision.
And here I was thinking this was simply two different compartments of Joyce’s mind that were focused on very different things.
She asked Dorothy to look up information for classes, thats it, Dorothy decided to buy her a sketchbook and everything else on her own
Side note I’ve noticed that whenever Dorothy thinks Joyce needs to do something she never gives Joyce a chance to think it over, when she found out Joyce needed glasses she made an appointment for that day (against Joyce’s wishes) she decided Joyce needed to get her birth control pill as fast as possible, now she sets up Joyce sitting in on this class the same day she expresses any interest in it
Maybe this is part of why Joyce feels like her friends are suffocating her, they decide stuff for her before she even has a chance to decide for herself
I’m suddenly reminded of how needy Danny was early on, and I sort of wonder if that didn’t affect Dorothy’s overall mindset in some way. Like, Danny definitely needed a lot of time and work, and I can easily picture Dorothy just getting used to that and then having that empty space in her brain hallway.
Or vice versa – he got used to the crutch and stopped doing things for himself at all. Probably a bit of both, tbh.
Most likely a bit of both, which is potentially more than a little slice of why she dumped him. I hope she can recognise the pattern in her behavior and like…chill out for a bit.
Probably a little of both.
Ironically, what Danny needed was a lot of time and work FROM HIMSELF. He didn’t really improve while he was with Dorothy or Amber, but only while he was single.
I meant more that he required a lot of those things on a maintenance level as Dorothy’s S.O., not so much on a self-improvement level.
Ah, gotcha.
Great point, this could totally be one of the big things that contributed to Joyce’s meltdown (not sure if it was or not, but better than calling it a tantrum)!
Autistic people often need more time to process info and adjust to change. Dorothy’s way of helping, while it might be absolutely appropriate when Joyce has the chance to come around herself, doesn’t give her that necessary space.
For me it’s really overwhelming and I get massive blocks when plans change suddenly, especially when I didn’t choose, including being invited to do something day-of or when a class gets cancelled. Even if I didn’t have any plans unless I am able to shift into the right headset then I either Wont Do It or do it and just feel rubbish and irritable the whole time.
The more I hear of the experiences and/or symptoms of people on the spectrum, the more I start suspecting that I am on the spectrum myself. I am in no way qualified to make that diagnosis, but when I compare the experiences of my life growing up to some of the things I hear, it starts to make a scary about of sense. I have no way of knowing how one gets evaluated for that kind of thing though, and part of me is scared to actually do it, because I feel like it would affect my self image in some major way that I…don’t think is bad, but I guess in a way I don’t know if I am or ever could be ready for?
Sorry for the misplaced rant. That thing you were talking about with regard to irritability in response to sudden plan changes outside of your control just made some rather vivid memories come to my mind, in which I reacted negatively in ways that always felt overboard to me when I look at them in hindsight.
If it helps, self-diagnosis can make things a lot smoother for some people, at least until they can get a proper diagnosis. There are so many gatekeepers in the official channels, all based on outdated/racist/sexist assumptions, that self-disgnosis is often the only way some people can get access to certain resources.
I’m not saying anything one way or another, but if you’re genuinely curious or suspect you may be, I encourage looking into it. Even if your eventual conclusion is “Nah, I guess not after all”, you can only benefit from gaining knowledge on the overall topic.
I’ve taken a number of online quizzes on psychiatric websites, just to get a general idea if it might be a good idea to get professionally evaluated. Unfortunately, the results aren’t very conclusive on these things. If I do have indications of being on the spectrum, they’re either mild (I don’t like using that word in relation to autism, makes it sound like a disease–but unfortunately I can’t think of a better term in this context, so please know I mean no offense), or very specific.
I’m pretty good in social contexts in that I have no problem talking with strangers, for example, but I experience physical pain from harsh noise, am particular about the physical consistency of foods I eat (I hate soft mushy foods like hummus and refried beans–not because of taste, but because they *feel* bad), and have difficulty adapting to plans changing outside of my control, which appear to be markers, from what I’ve been led to understand. However, most loud sharp noises tend to irritate people, and I could just be a picky eater (which would be weird, since I love trying new foods, but it’s possible). I do have trouble making friends as an adult, but that doesn’t mean much as a lot of people do, as it more has to do with my difficulty making attachments and most of my interests being kind of insular, without requiring much social involvement. It doesn’t help that some symptoms I’ve associated with autism are also similar to those of depression (which I know I do have) and ADHD, which while there can be overlap, are still different things. I could very easily be confusing them. Hence my interest in getting a professional to evaluate me.
The main thing that made me think it could be a possibility is that growing up as a kid I found it very easy to either offend people or put them off in conversation if they didn’t already know me well, without ever really knowing or understanding why. My current grasp of social convention and being a relatively good conversationalist is mostly learned behavior; I remember social situations as a kid and especially as a teenager being kind of a mindfield to navigate as I desperately tried to figure out how to relate to people.
Comedy especially was difficult. I think I have a pretty good sense of humor and I love stand-up comedy, but no matter how many times I try to tell jokes of my own, I’m usually met with blank stares–if I do say something genuinely funny, it’s almost never intentional. It could just be that I’m bad at telling jokes or my sense of comedic timing is nonexistent, or it could be that I just genuinely don’t understand what other people find funny. Made it especially hard not to come across as rude when I was younger as my default coping mechanism when dealing with unfair or unfortunate events in my life was deadpan or biting sarcasm and bravado; and I wore that mask for so long it kind of became my default state for much of my youth before I kind of lost it in college.
Actually, holy shit, it just occurred to me right now that pretty much everything I learned about how to talk to people was pretty much picked up from stage acting in elementary, junior high and high school, right down to facial expression and tone of voice, and I’m not sure if it’s something that ever came naturally to me if I really think about it. Huh. I’d never really thought of that before.
I checked my blog and I had a post on the subject:
https://opusthepoet.wordpress.com/2021/12/10/well-im-intp-t-i-think/
and apparently I’m INTP-T which means I’ve learned how to think tactically, probably from all the RPGs I played and the squad tactics training I took as part of my soldierization when I was in the Army. But anywho, I’m introverted (no surprise), but somewhat like people, I’m not a total misanthrope.
I am in no way qualified to make that diagnosis, but when I compare the experiences of my life growing up to some of the things I hear, it starts to make a scary about of sense.
It can be such a major hassle to get a diagnosis! But self-diagnosis *specifically of autism* is generally considered mostly reliable. If it’s generally considered mostly reliable for other things, I’m not able to say.
Your experience sounds a lot like mine and I definitely relate to your point about learning how to do the social thing through acting. I did have social trouble, but I learned my way out of it because my “special interest” is people, so as a kind I binge-read/watched everything to do with body language, linguistics and social psychology, and learned that way. It probably contributed to me going unnoticed until adulthood because from an adult’s POV I was pretty normal social-wise.
I figured out I was autistic because of a class I took where we watched a video from the POV of someone with sensory sensitivities and I realised that what I experience isn’t the norm, and that I had a lot more in common with AuDHD friends (and acquaintances who clocked me).
There’s no rush to diagnosis, since they’re expensive and often difficult to get, and really have limited use unless you’re seeking specific supports. If you are interested in exploring the possibility, then I’d definitely recommend reading books and watching videos by ND people. It can be pretty validating and there’s a lot of really helpful advice around that Drs aren’t clued into. I also found it more helpful than resources by professionals WITHOUT those experiences because ND creators describe and address internal experiences rather than focusing on external behaviours. I have a youtube playlist with AuDHD creators if you’re interested in that.
That would be great, if you’re willing to share it with me!
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsz-wsKsfQ4iAH1U9VGcwJVU9YGtN253o
I don’t know how to hyperlink, but this is the playlist so far. It includes mostly videos on/from autistic and ADHD experiences. There’s a good mix of academic speakers and informal creators. How To ADHD has a lot of amazing skills and strategies that work for both ADHD and other ND types with executive dysfunction and sensory sensitivity, so don’t get put off by the name if you don’t relate to ADHD.
Oof yes, I hate sudden changes in plans. And I will be grumpy and irritable for a long time after a sudden change in plans, though I can usually still function.
I wondered if that was simply a side effect of the pacing of the comic. If Dorothy could only get an eye appointment for Joyce for next Wednesday, we’d have to wait half a year to see it happen.
I don’t think so. Can you give me the URL of the comic?
She didn’t. Here’s the URL of her asking for Dorothy to just research the classes. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/crowded/
Yes, I know she didn’t. I was rather hoping the person I was replying to would answer me so they would, with luck, pick up on that on their own without having to have their hand held.
“Could you RESEARCH life drawing classes for me”
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; RESEARCH. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue (which I’d assume is online anyway). Which Dorothy then did. She researched what was available and found one that would work with Joyce’s existing schedule. She researched whether there were open spots and whether sit-ins were allowed.
The art supplies were unasked-for (though finding out what art supplies would be needed would certainly be an aspect of research, and going from there to just picking them up so as to make one less barrier for Joyce should she decide to take the class isn’t a big leap). So yeah, if she was looking for Joyce to fawn over her with thanks for art supplies, Dorothy would be the asshole here. If Joyce rejected the art supplies and Dorothy got upset over that, Dorothy would be the asshole. If Joyce decided not to go to the class and Dorothy got upset about that, Dorothy would be the asshole. But the VAST MAJORITY of what Dorothy did was A FAVOR JOYCE SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
So kindly shove your snark, and I will thank you if and when you do, as it is a favor I have specifically asked of you.
The only thing she asked for is the list – and you’re putting a lot of emphasis on the word research.
Also – please stop using all caps for emphasis. It really doesn’t work with screenreaders. It’s also just not that readable for those of us who don’t use screenreaders. Try italics.
When you’ve rewritten your comment in a format I can actually read, I’ll take another look.
To your liking then:
“Could you research life drawing classes for me”
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; research. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue (which I’d assume is online anyway). Which Dorothy then did. She researched what was available and found one that would work with Joyce’s existing schedule. She researched whether there were open spots and whether sit-ins were allowed.
The art supplies were unasked-for (though finding out what art supplies would be needed would certainly be an aspect of research, and going from there to just picking them up so as to make one less barrier for Joyce should she decide to take the class isn’t a big leap). So yeah, if she was looking for Joyce to fawn over her with thanks for art supplies, Dorothy would be the asshole here. If Joyce rejected the art supplies and Dorothy got upset over that, Dorothy would be the asshole. If Joyce decided not to go to the class and Dorothy got upset about that, Dorothy would be the asshole. But the vast majority of what Dorothy did was a favor Joyce specifically asked for, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
So kindly shove your snark, and I will thank you if and when you do, as it is a favor I have specifically asked of you.
(And to reply to your specific protest: you have been linked the strip and can see for yourself that Joyce did not say anything about ‘just a list’.)
Thank you, Tan.
May I ask why you think I called either one of them “an asshole”?
Not “could you find a list of life drawing classes”; research. This implies a level of investigation beyond handing her a course catalogue
Maybe to you, certainly not to me. I would not at all interpret that request that way, nor that word. I think that this interpretation is a bit ridiculous, actually. Maybe we could use more people to weigh in here.
But the vast majority of what Dorothy did was a favor Joyce specifically asked for, and some bare-basic acknowledgment of that would be appropriate.
Then perhaps Dorothy should have made the minimum level of effort to make sure Joyce was actually listening to her.
You’re looking at the strip right now. Tell me, when you greet somebody, do you often start speaking to them before they look at you?
Because I don’t think that’s a very polite thing to do. I think the polite and sensible thing is to wait until they turn to you or otherwise acknowledge that they recognize you are there and speaking to them. I do not think it is polite to just talk at somebody until and unless you have gotten their attention.
I encourage you to look up the word ‘research’ (as a verb) in your preferred dictionary. I expect phrases like ‘extensive investigation’ and ‘systematic inquiry’ and ‘careful study’ to come up.
I did not say you accused Dorothy of being an asshole. I said that you have uncalled-for snarked at people pointing out to others that (most of) what Dorothy has done was specifically what Joyce requested.
As for whether Dorothy should’ve paused more between Joyce’s name and the rest of her statements, probably, though that is also reading a fair bit into a medium that is a limited series of still panels (did Joyce glance Dorothy’s way? Was Dorothy more in Joyce’s eyeline than comic staging might suggest? hard to say). Given the lack of expression of confusion about what Dorothy might’ve said, I strongly suspect that, while it might’ve taken her a minute to process it (relatable), she had it in time that she could have said something acknowledging (or shifted her attention and asked Dorothy to repeat) well before Dorothy’s storm-off, if she chose to.
Even if your weird personal definition of “research”, Joyce certainly did not ask for Dorothy to buy her things or talk to the professor and set it up for her to go to class that very night. Egads.
Quite honestly, that’s the sort of thing that con artists and abusive partners do – they set up a situation to create a perceived time pressure and sense of obligation, so that the other person does not feel comfortable backing out.
Dorothy is not a con artist nor an abusive partner, but that doesn’t mean that she should be doing this. And she does this repeatedly – this is just the most egregious moment because, unlike the doctor appointments, it’s actually the most low-importance.
It is not my ‘weird personal’ definition. It is the widely agreed definition according to every dictionary I checked. Again, check whichever one you please.
Dorothy did not make any arrangements for Joyce to be in the class. She asked the instructor if sit-ins are allowed, which is an extremely relevant piece of information, from the most reliable source.
no
But she was requested to do this.
Can you please provide the URL to the comic where this request was made and, preferably, the text therein? Because to my knowledge, Joyce did not make this request.
Joyce should remember she’s made Dorothy angry on previous occasions. When she yelled at her not to throw herself as the lust-filled wolves or something.
“the cragged shame pits of the lust wolves” are, I believe, the words she used.
The power to make Dorothy angry is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Is it possible to learn this power?
PS.
Have you ever seen ‘Back Stroke of the West’?
Is It Possible to Learn This Power?
So “Enrage Dorothy” is the first level of the Dark Arts Skill Tree?
Noooo this was my post but better
Damn yooooooouuuuu
I’m going slightly mad
I’m going slightly mad
It finally happened – happened
It finally happened – uh huh
It finally happened
I’m slightly mad
Oh dear
Is that from a song? If not it’s a cool verse you came up with.
Queen “I’m Going Slightly Mad” album “innuendo”
I honestly didn’t realize that it was becoming an obscure song… It was very common, including in soundtracks and the like, once upon a time…
It really does suck to be ignored. The only thing worse (I mean, in the politeness/consideration sphere, not talking about like, murder) is being interrupted. Dorothy should sneak-attack wedgie Joyce awake in the night, that’ll learn ‘er to pay attention, aye?
I think what sucks worse than being ignored is somebody assuming you’re ignoring them when you’re just paying attention to something else and haven’t noticed them yet, and then getting angry at you over it.
Like a day after finding out Joyce may be autistic Dorothy gets mad at Joyce for exhibiting autistic traits
Dorothy might not know all or any of the traits of being autistic. Also consider how Dorothy is clearly stressed out by other stuff as she hinted during the getting birth control mini-arc. So without context she may have felt like Joyce was more interested in Joe and him being rude, rather than her attempts to help Joyce.
She yelled at her for being outright self-centered and ignoring her. I mean, I am autistic, but if you’re trying to tell me something and I am blatantly ignoring you, you’d be wholly justified in being upset with me.
She launched into what she was saying without making sure Joyce had noticed her, while Joyce was clearly distracted by something
That’s the same thing as deliberately ignoring a person while maintaining aggressive eye contact, don’t ya know.
This.
As far as Joyce’s attention is concerned, Dorothy wasn’t in yesterday’s comic. She suddenly appeared today and angrily shoved the sketchpad at her.
I’m also autistic, and if you try to tell me something without first getting my attention and making sure you have it then you will be wasting your breath, because I will not know you are speaking to me.
This ^^^^
I’m not even autistic, and this is absolutely how talking to me works. If you haven’t gotten me to acknowledge you within the last couple of minutes, I’m probably not aware of you, no matter where I’m looking.
Definitely not when I’m staring fixedly in the opposite direction mumbling about somebody being gone.
Dorothy’s the one being self-centered, demanding thanks and acknowledgement for frankly rude “favors.” Also payment.
“Blatantly ignoring?” No. Likely didn’t know Dorothy was there? Yes.
Ding.
Like, would I be frustrated with the day Dorothy is having? Yes.
Would I probably have waited for my friend to be looking at/paying attention to me before I launched into a topic I wanted attention for? Also yes.
At the very least, a tap on the shoulder would have been nice. Physical stimulus is often easier to register than auditory, when a person is distracted.
Provided they’re OK with a touch like that of course. Always important to ask first.
Oh yeah, definitely. I think Joyce and Dorothy are absolutely cool with the touchy-touchy stuff, but I can’t be arsed to grab the books off my shelf.
Ooh, ouch.
I just had a cringe memory of someone waving his hand in front of my face to get my attention as a kid. I punched him in the nose out of surprise.
(I was 12, undiagnosed and traumatised. It was automatic and I burst into tears because I didn’t understand why it happened)
With great power comes great arosal
This calls for a Spiderman quote….. from someone else! making Dotty angry is a lame power and does not deserve said line I may be referencing
With lame power comes no responsibility.
Lame or not, it is still a power.
And as far as powers go, it’s no worse than being able breathe underwater or communicate telepathically with fish. Now there’s a lame power for you… I’m not sure if I’m describing Aquaman or Jacques Cousteau.
MMm… nooo… making Dorothy angry is definitely worse as a power than being able to breathe underwater, even without the fish communication as a bonus. Being drown-proof would be awesome.
I would absolutely take a simple drown-proofing over intentionally pissing off my friend.
When I was in high school I had one friend I could give a nosebleed just by staring at him. After I did it twice (once by accident, once to confirm) I never used my power again.
Are you sure he wasn’t just a harem anime protagonist?
Being ignored Dorothy seems to be her, and dr. Cox’s; biggest pet peeve.
Dorothy made herself angry. I don’t have the energy to explain the intricacies of this to any satisfactory degree, but if she can’t handle Joyce being distracted by something for a few seconds while she (Dorothy) jabbers about unasked favors, that’s 3000% a Her Problem. I like Dorothy, but I don’t like this weird behavior.
Hard same.
Brain melted.
Wait 4 days for a farting dinosaur game.
The favor was asked for. Dorothy went above and beyond. She did all of this for Joyce AFTER Joyce had screamed at her to leave her alone and then immediately asked her to do something for her.
I’m autistic as well, and if I treated my friends the way Joyce had they would be well within their rights to rip me a new one or abandon me altogether. Autism explains the behavior, it doesn’t excuse it. Joyce is constantly self centered and without her friends going the extra mile would have been kicked out of school or run home within the first month. For crying out loud she wouldn’t have been able to shower without Sarah’s help.
It’s far past time for Joyce to have her friends call her on her bullshit.
Mhm. Joyce definitely asked, on-panel, for Dorothy to contact an instructor, get the go-ahead for Joyce to attend the class, and make a relevant purchase out of her own pocket. That’s definitely how it happened and what was asked for, and Dorothy definitely didn’t take things further than necessary on her own initiative.
A favor was asked for, that’s not in dispute, but this is not that favor.
Frankly Joyce would be perfectly justified in chewing Dorothy out for making a purchase for Joyce and deciding Joyce should pay her back (in any form) without even consulting Joyce about it
It tastes weird, right?
Yeah, I think we can agree that asking to be reimbursed for an unsollicited purchase is at least a little rude.
OTOH – Dorothy knows that Joyce enjoys these MAC dinner parties and has used it as a bargaining chip before.
I think Dorothy’s reactiong is understandable, like she doesn’t understand what’s going on for Joyce, is doing her best, and it probably feels like nothing she does is good enough for her…. but I still don’t think reacting to/interpretting Joyce’s behaviour that way would be reasonable or kind.
It’s not that one or the other is in the wrong, but it’s getting more obvious that their communication styles and expectations are currently incompatible because life stressors have deteriorated Joyce’s capacity to compensate. Dorothy tries to bridge that, but she’s doing so in a way that isn’t appropriate for Joyce. Neither of them really know *how* to talk about these things yet, so it’s just really messy while they figure it out.
@v.gay.person – Yeah, all this.
I may be in the minority here, but I think Dorothy expressing some open anger here is actually kind of healthy for her (whether or not it’s *merited*, which we could—and have, frankly—litigate all day). It’s not an outsized expression of anger—she didn’t yell, she didn’t make accusations or call names*—she just didn’t try to suppress it, or manage it the way she normally does when something. And it made an impression on Joyce! That’s actually useful information for Joyce.
*Granted, Dorothy DID do these things at Jennifer just this morning, but Jennifer pointed out how unusual that was for Dorothy, and also just found it funny (since she’s Jennifer and has an extremely unhealthy relationship to interpersonal conflict that includes sexualizing aggression and violence).
I’m with you, cerusee. I think both her and Joyce’s reactions/conflict is healthy. It’s honest communication and reveals something that needs to be addressed. They don’t have the life experience to back up other trouble-shooting skills yet, and this is how they develop them. It’s way better that they are able to express that something’s wrong than to pretend it’s not there.
Yes. You’re correct. Joyce exhibits symptoms of autism and as someone who is undiagnosed, she has never been given coping mechanisms or even had pointed out that there are ways to work with the way her mind works rather than against.
She’s from a cult, homeschooled, and has had trauma after trauma so large it would send most people catatonic.
How DARE she??
Joyce isn’t forcing these people to help her. They often do so because she asked nicely (they could easily say no) or because she exhibits a behaviour they personally find objectionable, so they intercede (usually without asking if she wanted any help in the first place).
In this case that took the form of pushing several steps past a stated request literally hours after being told Joyce has no interest in people forcing her through life that way.
I’m sure if I squint really hard, I can see how Joyce is the only asshole and her friends are blameless, but honestly I just don’t want the crow’s feet.
I’m pretty sure squinting that hard would turn your eyes inside-out, and nobody wants that.
Agreed completely Nova on all points.
you really don’t have faith in Joyce’s intelligence or resilience, do you? without her friends, she definitely would have STRUGGLED but kicked out of school is too negative
She did hire a guy to assault someone for her. If Joe wasn’t absurdly tolerant, there’s a good chance that alone would have put her on thin ice, and probably seen Mike in even more trouble.
I’m skeptical that Mike would have faced serious consequences for being violent, when “Ryan” and his posse were getting away with literal rape completely consequence-free. (Amazi-Girl doesn’t count as consequence from the university, since vigilante justice is the only kind those cretins were ever gonna get)
Pretty sure Joyce was not aware of Dorothy until she turned around.
A power so great it can only be used for good or evil!
That seems so limiting.
You have, so use it for good
Dorothy is ND right? I feel like there’s no way she’s neurotypical. I don’t think she has autism, but she really doesn’t come off as having NT behavior patterns to me
…I say as someone who is ND and just guesses as to what it must be like to be NT
Sarah suggested it around the time they found out about Joyce’s referral and Dorothy got weirdly hostile to the idea
And also suggested Sarah might be ND.
Honestly, I’m starting to suspect Willis has gone through the same journey I have from “It must be really difficult to write an ND character, I’m not sure I could get it right” to “So, have I ever written a character who’s neurotypical?”
“We’re all
bozosNDs on this bus.”I think Dorothy is autistic, and I think Sarah is too (and unlike Dorothy, knows it)
Personally Dorothy strikes me as too well-adjusted in her personal life to be ND, but then again, she could be an ND person who comes from that rare family that’s both ND *and* non-dysfunctional and loving (my boyfriend comes from a family like that, and the members of it are rather Dorothy-like…)
She could also be that rare ND person who doesn’t have ADHD. I know one or two autistic folks who don’t have ADHD on top of it, and they’re able to focus wonderfully well on work tasks and daily life needs. It’s just the social and relationships part they struggle with.
Which, I guess, is Dorothy enough. Although I feel like if she were a real person, she’d get along just fine with neurotypical people, so maybe not. Hmm.
Maybe Dorothy IS ND. Who knows! There ARE those whose neurodiversity doesn’t complicate their lives or make it more difficult for them in ways they notice or care about…
Personally I find Dorothy one of the more relatable characters for me and I am very likely autistic. And I do get along with people pretty easily, but on the inside I am anxious and constantly scripting what I will say. Then I stutter which ruins the script of what I was saying and my sentence turns into nonsense.
Unpopular opinion: Dorothy was being kind of rude here.
Imagine you walk up to your friend, who’s clearly in a reverie, and you start infodumping about the favors you’ve done for her (unasked, to be clear, though obviously still very nice of you). She doesn’t seem to register your words, instead remarking on the thing that’s unsettled her. You get pissed and snap at her for it, then storm off.
I’m just saying, this is a gray situation.
a JULIA gray situa
(this isn’t even getting into how autistic/adhd people often literally just don’t register someone’s words when they’re fixated on something else.)
okay you got me it’s not that unpopular I’m basic
I think if Dorothy really wants to Help, she’d be better off looking into what being autistic actually means on a human level, then taking things from there. Maybe she will, maybe she’ll die mad.
Or maybe she’ll move on to Yale and live a fulfilling life without catering to Joyce unduly. “Die mad”. Jesus Christ.
That’s not gray. What the Hell, Dorothy?
Honestly, what I see here is Dorothy seems to assume Joyce was ignoring her then gets angry without any proof that’s actually what happened.
I’m autistic myself and honestly I often don’t hear people if I’m distracted, thinking, or overwhelmed in any way, unless they get me to look at them before talking. This has also been true for many others I’ve spoken with on the spectrum.
Also, the people calling Joyce a toddler and/or child seem to be forgetting A) she grew up in a cult that taught her she must obey and not think for herself, deprived her of any agency, and socially stunted her. B) She is recovering from several recent compounded traumas, which can cause people to regress emotionally. C) Many neurodivergent people have executive functioning difficulties that may, to an outsider, look like immaturity.
It’s also a bad take to call a person a child because they have mental health struggles due to the aforementioned trauma and cult upbringing and are autistic. It’s honestly really ableist.
*upvoted*
I agree, it’s extremely ableist. And like you’ve laid out, Joyce is constantly under attack from all sides, which absolutely is not a good state to exist and make decisions in. In her position, at her age, I’d likely have been more or less wandering in circles, bumping into things most days. It’s incredibly unfair to twist that into some sort of purposeful decision on her part.
Yeah, poor girl can’t seem to catch a break at the moment. I have a lot of trauma, including religious cult trauma, and mental health issues myself and that plus not being diagnosed as autistic until 19, meant my young adulthood involved a lot of mistakes, meltdowns, anger, and social faux pas until I figured more things out and had a LOT of therapy. People seem to forget Joyce is doing all this without any professional support or even educated support and her friends often infantilize her or steam roll over her boundaries as “support”. It’s hard to grow in that environment.
To be clear, her friends aren’t bad people, just ignorant and young with their own issues.
Absofuckinglutely.
A+. Would comment on again.
As someone with Auditory Processing Disorder, I’ve had countless instances in my life where someone would say something unexpected and I would reflexively respond “…What?” only for my brain to catch up and register what was said like 2-3s later. Or countless other moments where I just render everything someone someone says on a delay. Taken me a long time to (mostly) break that habit, and I’m sure many people over the years have thought me to be rudely ignoring/not listening to them.
So yeah I can relate.
Yeah, I can get that. Processing issues are tough.
I have the same kind of thing, words stay in a buffer somewhere and get processed a few seconds after they were heard.
The way I deal with this is simply by asking the person to let me think for a bit. The problem with that is sometimes, the buffer gets corrupted, and I only have partial information, at which point I ask the person to repeat their request, and though most people are okay with that, some do get frustrated.
I’ve started saying, “wait, can you say that sentence again? I was still thinking about what you said before”. They’re much more likely to repeat themselves, and not get hurt/annoyed, if they couple it with the idea that I was being extra attentive to them.
I am an autistic person who does that all the time, and yet until you said it, I was totally reading yesterday’s strip as Joyce ignoring Dorothy. so thanks for getting me to reconsider it.
TBH though, if I were in Dorothy’s position I suspect I would react much the same way, at least partly because I had to plan this conversation and It’s Not Going The Way It’s Supposed To. I’d just feel bad about it instantly. (And probably get into an anxiety loop about whether I should apologise, or whether my anger was justified, or whether an apology would actually be kind of patronising in implying I don’t believe Joyce can’t handle people being angry with her, or…)
You’re welcome and yeah, navigating socially with anxiety is hard.
Dorothy and Joyce have shared a room for months and this seems to be the first time Joyce was ignoring Dorothy so much. Dunno if this is something that was already in Joyce and just today is showed and I don’t remember she doing something similar before. But you can’t say Dorothy is overeating for thinking she was purposely ignored because forn her this behaviour from Joyce is a new thing. Also you can’t be 100% sure Joyce wasn’t ignoring her purposely because she was still angry with her.
Thank you. Something was bothering me about all the “this is standard autistic behavior” conversation and you found it and wrote it out.
Joyce ignoring people is a new thing and Dorothy has no reason to be prepared for it.
Unless I am completely wrong and autism symptoms can show up and disappear like allergies.
I dunno about the “allergies” thing, but yes, symptoms can absolutely fluctuate day-to-day. I’m personally minded to think Joyce being distracted about Joe isn’t necessarily an Autism Thing, though. Sometimes a person is simply thinking about something intensely.
You’re right, it’s not an autistic behavior per se.
This is something that shows up in fiction so often that I’m pretty sure, to some extent, it is *universal* behavior, that *everybody* once in a while has been focused so hard on one thing that they didn’t notice some other thing, like somebody speaking to them.
Although you’re right, autism symptoms can certainly “suddenly appear” due to different circumstances such as *more stress*.
More stress? Why, all these kids seem completely relaxed and chill, so I’m not sure why you’d ever bring that up.
Dorothy and Joyce don’t room together. Joyce rooms with Sarah, and Becky now rooms with Dorothy (although it’s only been what, a couple of weeks? Since that started in the second semester. First semester Dorothy’s roommate was Sierra).
Yes, my fault. But the point is that Dorothy and Joyce knows each other for months and Joyce has never ignored her (or anyone) like that because she was concentrated in something else and there’s a possibility that she has ignored Dorothy on purpose because she’s still mad at her.
I don’t have a lot of experience with autistic people and was surprised to learn that they may literally not hear or notice someone in this situation. From my perspective that didn’t seem possible until I heard other people’s experiences.
Have you never watched TV or movies?
I have, and I often have noticed scenes where a presumably NT character is thinking hard about something and then suddenly realizes somebody is talking to them because that person finally waves a hand in their face or shakes them, often with a phrasing like ‘Earth to Jake!’ or ‘Hey, are you listening?’
Sure, this happens more frequently to autistic people than other people, but… did you really never see this in fiction or real life?
Lots of things are common in fiction that aren’t at all in real life, so I wouldn’t count too much on that.
Sure, but if this was wholly unrealistic I’d think it wouldn’t show up quite so much, across so many different genres.
I do that all the time. I wear a watch with the alarm permanently set to 5PM because, early in our marriage, my wife would call me at work to say it’s 8:00, are you ever coming home? I was lost in what I was doing and had no idea at all what time it was, or that everybody else had left hours ago.
Oh yeah, it’s super common. My S.O. and I sometimes have to holler or throw a paper towel at each other, pause whatever we’re currently binge-watching, and then address each other by name before we start going off on one, or even just to ask a simple question. I can see why it seems far-fetched from an ignorant perspective though, since people tend to kinda just start chatting right outta the gate.
This!
Please, no. Making people angry is an executive power bad bosses have.
The dark side of the Force* is a pathway to many abilities some would consider to be…unnatural.
*: the Force in this case is an intense, potentially bisexual interpersonal relationship
I was fairly certain that the dark side of the force had something to do with chocolate.
I’ve heard that chocolate is bisexual, and it certainly is intense, so.
And thus, Joyce fulfilled her TRUE Destiny
. o O ( Anyways, back to thinking about Joe )
This won’t end well. (Remember “take that,Becky!” from the beginning of Joyce Is Atheist Now. Lashing out with newfound social ‘oomph’ and mistaking it for progress just because it’s new is very much a Joyce Thing.)
She does say that she feels bad, so that’s something.
I believe if you made your friends angry, they aren’t your friends anymore.
I feel like I’m wrong, I don’t know…
That’s… A very strange viewpoint. My friends and I piss each other off sometimes, but we get over it and work it out eventually. I think getting past surmountable squabbles is a sign of a “real” friendship, and if you can’t upset them once (barring extreme examples) without it being The End, I’m not sure that’s actually a friend, at least not as I understand the concept.
I mean, it’s highly contextual. Did you make them angry on purpose? over what? can it be fixed? is it a repeat offense?
I tend to not be friends with people who have a “one strike and you’re out” policy towards friend fuck-ups. Not by my choice, but because I blunder and they decide they don’t want to associate with me anymore
I think that sort of person is just called a bully or something like that.
people piss off other people all the time, without meaning to.
Now, if you knew for a fact that something was going to do that, and did it anyway, then it’s time to question that friendship. The ability to get a rise out of someone isn’t a toy. But just accidentally bumping into something? Not the same thing.
I need clarification here. Is it because real friends never get angry at one another? Or is the friendship immediately terminated if one friend gets mad at the other?
What? No?????
It is incredibly normal to occasionally be irritated or angry at people that you love or with whom you are friends. The ability to process that irritation or anger in a healthy way is what a relationship actually hinges upon.
Quick! Time to excise some anxieties into comic book characters who definirely dont have feelings for one another.
by the end of the semester, Dorothy will drop her dreams of becoming a politician because taking care of the needs of others is a giant hassle
Fortunately for her, “taking care of the needs of others” is completely optional for a politician.
In fact, some might even say it runs contrary to their job description and intentions, and in some cases is actively harmful to their career.
I will face Dorothy and walk backwards into Hell
Joyce now feels bad for have make Dorothy angry, I know that at the same time she’s excited for that, but she’s feeling bad. I think in the previous strip she was purposely ignoring Dorothy because she was still mad at her and now she’s realising that was not a good move. I know that Dorothy is overprotective and yadda, yadda, yadda. But she just want to be useful. Joyce asked her if she could find a life drawing class, she find one just for that same day and knowing Joyce has not a sketch pad she take one for her. I think it’s a beautiful thing to do. It’s just so difficult to understand others, you end up always feeling you have do something wrong and it’s sad, it’s unfair and make you want to stop caring for them and close your mind, yous heart and disappear.
DOES she feel bad? Aside from her saying it- which comes across more like she knows she OUGHT to- nothing really indicates it; she moves straight on to an uncharitable observation about the “power” this new knowledge gives her. Good ol’ Joyce.
You must only use this power for good.
Given how invested the thread is becoming in Joyce’s possible autism I am morbidly curious to see how people would react if it turns out she’s not.
Disappointment in a lost representation opportunity?
Retroactive annoyance at Joyce misappropriating the autism label?
Rejection of the diagnosis results?
Actually, given this is Joyce… will she ever get officially tested?
Hmmm… Dina will almost certainly call her out on it eventually.
I’d be fine with that outcome, personally. She’s in college, widely known to be a time when people start to really figure themselves out, so there’s really no harm in asking important questions like that, even if the answer turns out to be “No”. There’s already been a net positive from all this regardless, in that she’s started to gain more understanding and empathy on the overall topic, as seen in her interaction with Dina. So if nothing else, she’s acquired and internalised new knowledge.
It’s pretty clearly not going to happen though. Or at least it’s not the current intent. The first actual visit with a specialist would be weeks (and thus years of our time) away. A formal diagnosis would likely require multiple visits, pushing it even farther out.
Even not getting a diagnosis might just reflect the difficulty of a getting diagnosed as an adult woman, not her not actually being autistic. “rejection of the diagnosis results” would be reasonable. Much like rejecting Dina’s diagnosis results.
The narrative is clearly leaning into Joyce actually being autistic and exploring autism that way. It would be very weird to upend that, likely after spending years on it.
I don’t disagree that it seems pretty obvious which way this is going, but Buli-buli’s question seems more about our reactions to the hypothetical opposite, so that’s all I was really responding to. Sometimes it’s fun to think in the opposite direction.
To be honest, I suspect I’d be really unhappy with it. Barring some always possible brilliant twist, it would feel like the author pulling the rug out from under what they’d set up. For the shock value or because they’d decided they just didn’t want to deal with the autism plot arc for some reason.
I agree.
If it turns out the doctor won’t diagnose her, that doesn’t mean it’ll turn out she’s not. She is. The audience has been discussing this for years and years.
I do recall a decent few discussions about exactly this, going back almost as long as I’ve been reading the comic. I don’t remember seeing much direct pushback on it until it came up in-comic, though. Then again, I mostly remember the fun interactions in these comments, not so much the Native Dissenters.
I am very ignorant on this subject but I am curious: how is it determined that someone is NOT autistic or on the spectrum? Dina clearly believes she is and yet she’s had multiple doctors say she was not. And Dina is the type to acknowledge hard truths if she finds them to be scientifically accurate.
This is going to come off as flippant but I mean it in all seriousness: if you’re a white cis-het guy with social difficulties, they’ll probably call you autistic.
If you’re any other demographic with the same presentation they’ll likely either leave you with no diagnosis or support to twist in the wind or they’ll give you a more stigmatized diagnosis like personality disorder or ODD.
(Hi, I’m a person whose child psych said in exactly so many words, “If she was a boy I’d be tempted to send her to a developmental expert in Aspergers or ADHD. But it’s really more of a boy thing, she’s probably just shy and a bit bored because she’s gifted.”
I was not just shy and bored)
Ah yes, the baked-in sexism of ND diagnosis. Pukeworthy, is what that is.
I can confirm what you’re saying.
This means that it’s estimated that something in the range of 40-65 % (depending on the study) of white boys with an ADHD diagnosis don’t actually have ADHD, and simultaneously a supermajority (consistently >60%) of girls and POC who meet diagnostic criteria for ADHD don’t have a diagnosis.
I haven’t read as widely about autism but if memory serves there’s a similar trend there: chronically overdiagnosed in white boys and underdiagnosed in girls and POC.
Hilariously for girls in particular there’s much to do in the literature about how fewer girls have autism diagnoses but those who have it tend to have higher support needs and yet until autistic women got into the field NOBODY thought to ask, “could this be because the diagnostic criteria or expert evaluators are biased against girls in some way and not because being a girl is somehow protective?” It was just chalked up to being a girl somehow making you less likely to be autistic. Spoiler: now that researchers are asking the question it’s coming to light that 1, girls present differently than bots, on average and 2, with all else being equal, a girl has to be more affected by autistic traits and have higher support needs than a boy to be even screened for referral for an evaluation, let alone diagnosed.
And yet only the stats for white boys are known, because apparently they’re the only people who count.
You put all this so well
thank you for informing everyone!
For a while gender disparity in ND diagnoses was a special interest.
Nowadays I’m more into baduk than reading autism research, but I still remember some of the things.
Sarah Hendrix is a fantastic speaker/writer on the subject. She’s both Autistic and a clinically qualified psychologist and there’s some great talks on youtube which are pretty accessible and evidence-based.
Some of the biggest differences between genders (largely based on socialisation) which contribute to girls being under-diagnosed include that their special interests are more often “socially acceptable” but of a socially-inappropriate intensity (eg Joyce’s bibleness, or my interest in people, languages, animals, nature or pop-culture like bands or actors), and they’re more likely to use the same pattern-seeking, logical systemising skills and black-and-white thinking that other Autistic people have and apply them to the social world. We’re also more likely to be language-oriented and hyper-verbal in a way that allows us to hide behind intelligence, chattiness or humour (which is interpretted differently because “girls are meant to be chatty”). A fun lil factoid is that Autistic boys are often refered to as “little professors” while Autistic girls are “little psychologists”. A lot of the time Aut girls do really well at school because of all those skills but it burns us out so we end up breaking down at home. Another way that the same cognitive process contributes to difference is that we often have trouble with judgement like predicting consequences and reading hidden agendas, but boys are more likely to respond by /not/ taking risks while girls are socialised to people-please and so end up in a lot of really bad situations because we don’t pick up things like that /this/ person intends to hurt me.
The thing that is really on-point about Joyce is that /especially/ for girls is that we often go unnoticed through younger years because there’s more structure and the social world is fairly easy to grasp until adolescence. The social world gets /way/ more complicated and we often start struggling there: end up super vulnerable to mental illness, peer pressure, addiction etc. Joyce was home-schooled, so she had the same structure all the way through and college is where her big shift was. So this is where she’s starting to burn out and crash, especially since she’s been riding on crisis after crisis before now which we tend to handle well /at the time/ but because “the body keeps the score” as soon as the ash settles it all comes out through meltdowns, intensified sensory and cognitive issues, and physical illness.
Based on what I know about Autism and trauma, this is /exactly/ what it looks like is happening for Joyce and I will probably continue to rant about it because it’s both extremely important to me and it’s stuff that I know.
((and here is the Sarah Hendrix speech I’ve taken a lot of info from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKzWbDPisNk other references include her book, ‘Women and Girls with Autism Spectrum Disorder’ and Tony Atwood’s ‘The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome’ even though the title is hella out of date))
Also this gets way more sticky when you also look at the difference between white and non-white people. I could hypothesise for eons about Dina’s experience, but it’d be a little bit out of my expertise since I’m still learning and most is around the experiences of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people.
I was an exception in that my childhood presentation was more like a textbook boy’s autism. My mother affectionately called me her little professor when I was a kid as a nickname before I was ever flagged, and teachers who thought I was insufferable would often sarcastically refer to me as Dr or Professor – that’s how stereotypically autistic my presentation was. I wasn’t diagnosed because sexism not because I wasn’t super obviously autistic. People literally nicknamed me the same descriptor as a textbook presentation. Oh but I was totally just gifted and shy and bored.
My big special interest as a kid was meteorology and that one’s not socially acceptable for girls.
It wasn’t till I was in high school that my special interests shifted to what I now realize is “how to mask” and Star Wars. But kid me? Couldn’t have been more obvious if I had a 10 foot neon sign pointing it out.
(Course as an adult I have some weird gender stuff going on so maybe that’s why I presented more like a boy? Anyway.)
Yeah, that’s pretty common. There’s also a lot of boys/amab people who present with more of the little psychologist type, which I don’t think I was super clear about. So far the distinction is made around gender because Group B characteristics are more often associated with girls, but it’s not as clear cut as it’s treated. Dina’s a pretty good example of a Little Professor type, which I love because it makes for a beautiful contrast with Joyce, and because her experience really shows the diagnostic limitations that were really dominant when I was a kid.
(My school friend was also a Little Professor and was tested but denied a diagnosis despite being textbook too bc sexism, while I wasn’t even noticed until I was late 20s)
Problem: I think the interesting thread of discussion here is that Dorothy usually wouldn’t get like this with Joyce, like, the only other time we saw her angry was during the *sighs, grits teeth* “Faith-Off”, so for her to get snippy over something as small as losing Joyce’s immediate fixation indicates that Something Is Up with Dotty: is it Yale? is it newly discovered bisexuality? are Yale and bisexuality at war?? is it trauma?? is it a three-front war??…but all people want to talk about is “WHO HAS COMMITTED THE GREATER SOCIAL SIN?! WHOMST IS THE VILLAIN?”
Solution: Everyone, calm down! We can all agree, Joyce and Dorothy are both unforgivable Satan-spawned queen bongoes who are irredeemable, now let’s focus on how interesting Dorothy’s overreaction is and what you think it means!
Ah yes, the great Yale and Bisexual War of 2022. Those were dark days. Many lives were lost.
Maybe my brain is broken, but I don’t see any “villainy” here. Dorothy’s been getting more and more agitated as this goes on, and it’d be great to get some insight on that. So far, it’s manifested in her over-investing in Joyce, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more unusually amped-up behavior from her soon. She’s not doing super well, and I’m curious to know exactly what she “gave up” to accompany Joyce to the pharmacy.
I don’t either, but there’s been a lot in the comments.
A lot of what, villainy? Yeah, I wish we could get rid of the bigoted and hateful remarks.
She’s having kind of a bad day.
@Sajuuk-Khar. Solidarity.
Can either Dotty or Joyce be bi? Please?
(Actually I would be like a million % here for bi Joyce who realizes later her type is basically Dorothy, and Dorothy is straight as an arrow, this giving Joyce more insight into Becky’s situation.
Cuz 1, funny, and 2, Joyce really reminds me of Closeted Me.
I totally don’t have a crush on this girl or find her hot! I just wanna be with her all the time, wanna learn about all the things she likes, make excuses for physical contact, and have fantasies of – uhhh, cuddling! Yeah! Haha, just gals being pals amirite?!
Seriously, if Joyce isn’t somewhere in bi realm and attracted to Jennifer and Dorothy, I’m a fig Newton.)
Meanwhile, just around the corner, Becky looks on with burning jealousy.
Becky has somehow found a floating window and a black T-shirt labeled “BECKY”, and is now leaning against the window muttering “No… ha ha ha… no!”
Sometimes people forget to pack their humor when they read this strip.
Talking about things that aren’t the punchline means you’re humorless.
There have absolutely been jokes and wisecracks today, what do you mean?
No, no. I have to agree with Taffy on this one. If it isn’t about the punchline, it isn’t really humorous.
For example, you can tell I’m completely serious about this because it has nothing to do with today’s punchline.
What do you mean, there was no punchline today?
TFW you want a girl to notice you but you realize she isn’t listening to a word you say because she’s thinking about a boy.
Hehe, you think that’s why she overreacted?
I think, if Joyce had been talking about Sal instead of Joe there would probably not have been shoving.
Big “wait, where did Dorothy come from and what just happened” vibes from Joyce, here.
I feel so bad for both of them. I understand Dorothy, but I’ve been Joyce in this situation my entire life and let me tell you: this sucks ASSSSSSSSSS
Oh my god, THAT’S why this strip felt so familiar. DX
I’ve been the dorothy in the situation multiple times and I’m still resentful of the adults (i was an underaged teen) who kept treating me like I was a puppy that misbehaved. If I got annoyed about being infantilised, what happens next is that they would start screaming and they would act like they were about to hit me, and started acting like I was “misbehaving” on purpose. Because all that happened to me, i was more prone to outbursts, because I was traumatized by it.
I’ve also been in this situation as an adult or without any adults around. Heres how it played out without any condescending, pushy, self righteous interference: i cooled off and apologized. I don’t really act that way very much anymore in the first place, at this point. (I’ve also had therapy. It is helping me deal with being traumatized by the adults who kept trying to dog train me.)
Joyce has never really shown this sort of lack of awareness before so I think it’s completely within the realm of reason for Dorothy to be upset by what comes across as Joyce snubbing her (especially considered what happened this morning; it would not be uncharitable to think that it’s deliberate on Joyce’s part).
It might seem a “small” thing, but that’s sort of what the saying “the straw that broke the camel’s back” saying *means*. There’s a lot piling on and then just the one little thing that finally sets you off.
What Dorothy did wasn’t even all overstepping – Joyce was going to need a sketchbook eventually, might as well pick it up now. There might not always be a vacancy to sit in on the class*, so might as well ask the teacher now. She “can” sit in – no obligation is there. It’s an option that she has.
*(I guess that IU doesn’t have an open draw period like more artistically oriented colleges do; Sheridan College had a 3 hr period after the usual classes were done for people to go in and do life drawing, though it was limited in seating, obviously).
The issue with the sketchbook isn’t so much that she bought one for Joyce, its that she started talking about how Joyce could pay her back for it when Joyce didn’t even know about it
How would you appreciate it if a friend bought something without your knowledge, gave it to you, and said “you can pay me back later”
Technically she was joking that Joyce didn’t actually have to pay her back (macaroni and cheese is not actually payment). And here I go back to the trap of responding to the repetitive “Dorothy committed the greater sin” response to what was a really insightful original comment by Sol.
NGL I’ve been falling into the same trap, so you’re not alone!
Not just is the “mac & cheese” not actually payment, it’s something Joyce really likes doing. Last time around, Dorothy bribed Joyce by letting her fix them mac & cheese.
Eeeexactly, I feel like the “Dorothy is terrible for DEMANDING REPAYMENT” folks are missing this
I wouldn’t think she’s TERRIBLE even if she had said, “you owe me twelve dollars for this”. I would think it was rude! This is a real thing some people do—take it upon themselves to buy something for someone without prior agreement, and then expect to be paid back money that the other person might not have wanted to spend. It’s obnoxious and presumptuous unless you do have that kind of prior understanding! I dislike it; I think people are generally within their rights to dislike it.
That said, I agree that “you can pay me back in Mac and cheese dinners if you want to” does a lot to change the tone of things, both because it sounds like Dorothy’s not very serious about the expectation of being paid back for the unasked-for purchase in the first place, and mac and cheese dinners are a form of currency she reasonably thinks Joyce would enjoy employing. (She’s probably right!)
I appreciate you :3
Dorothy didn’t commit a “greater sin’, but she did commit the Original Sin and doom humanity to imperfection in the eyes of God. It’s not a big thing, it’s just something people should know.
i’m trying to figure out how to word this…
dorothy’s absolutely allowed to be upset her friend is not showing the gratitude they deserve. She put a lot of work into this and it was all for someone else’s benefit. HOWEVER i learned a long time ago that if you want to do nice things for people, do it without expecting anything in return, even a thank you. It’s not entirely fair to expect a reaction out of someone and then be disappointed when they don’t react how you wanted them to. I gain satisfaction knowing i did something for someone else, how they want to react to it is their decision.
again tho, this is all from personal experience. you are absolutely allowed to be mad at your friend when they are taking you for granted !!
also so are we gonna talk about how dorothy is absolutely on the spectrum or what ? (sorry if this has already been hammered in the comments, i’ve been re-reading DOA for the past month and a half so idk what everyone’s been talking about ToT )
We can, as long as that talk doesn’t happen in earshot of Dorothy, who gets very pissy at the suggestion.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/sunlight/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/masking/
She SO is. Poor Sarah.
I mentioned this in a comment below, but I don’t think Dorothy is upset because Joyce isn’t “showing the gratitude she deserves.” She’s upset because Joyce is being rude, on top of that rudeness being hypocritical – seeing as Joyce was just voicing her displeasure over someone being rude and inconsiderate towards herself.
sorry, i still don’t think i worded it how i meant. i don’t think she was expecting a thank you, but she was expecting something other than what she got, which is what i mean by “don’t expect anything when you do nice things”
I definitly don’t think dorothy was in the wrong, joyce WAS being rude.
It’s fair not to expect gratitude for an unasked-for favor, but I think it’s also fair to not expect outright rudeness at ANY time.
Pretty sure Joyce didn’t know Dorothy was there until she turned around.
She was expecting some acknowledgement at doing the thing she was asked to do. I think that is reasonable. What she got was literally nothing.
If you want acknowledgement, you take two seconds to make sure you have the other person’s attention.
JOyce wasn’t “being rude”, Joyce hadn’t noticed she was there, different things.
Dorothy is being rude.
You do not simply start talking at people who show no sign of having noticed you. Joyce was facing in an entirely different direction when Dorothy showed up, speaking to herself about something else.
Dorothy should have gotten her attention before saying anything. That’s both manners and common sense.
Well, she was thinking silently, she only said things out loud at the end of Dorothy’s monologue.
Still, Dorothy very much presumed that she always has Joyce’s attention, and thus if Joyce is not reacting, she must be ignoring her deliberately :\
Yeah, that’s a very, very valuable life lesson! And Dorothy’s at about the right age where she might be learning it for the first time.
The “Dorothy is a manipulative monster”-type comments really weird me out, and I don’t even LIKE Dorothy much. Yes, she went overboard in helping Joyce, but she’s not angry “because Joyce isn’t thanking her” and I don’t think she’s the type of person to do things for people specifically to elicit compulsory gratitude, either. She’s upset because Joyce is, frankly, being rude and dismissive. Yes, part of it is due to Joyce’s neurodiversity, but the sad truth is that often being autistic means we can be rude and hurtful to people close to us without meaning to. I know we autistic people often bristle at social norms and all, but part of the reason for many social norms to exist is for consideration of the feelings of others. And it’s fair for people to call us out or get upset with us when we step on those feelings, intentionally or not.
I mean its about as reasonable as “Joyce is obviously maliciously ignoring Dorothy”
I never said Joyce was “maliciously” ignoring Dorothy, so your point is moot. One can be rude and inconsiderate without malicious intent.
For what it’s worth, it doesn’t seem to me that alongcameaspider was attributing that assertion to you, only saying that it was in the same realm of unreasonable as the example you offered. Both are assertions that other posters are making, and neither (IMO) is well-founded.
I went back and read the previous strip and Dorothy walked up to her, said her name, and talked at her for at least a full minute. I would expect someone to notice me if I did all that. It’s not about expecting gratitude, it’s about expecting Joyce to at least acknowledge that she is trying to have a conversation. I’ve learned from the comments that this may not be a reasonable expectation from someone on the spectrum, but I’d say a lot of people don’t know that.
Eh, I think it’s reasonable to expect someone to not be rude and inconsiderate, spectrum or not. Is it maybe harder for some of us to NOT be rude and inconsiderate than it is for NT folks? Maybe, but that doesn’t magically relieve us of that responsibility. It’s unfair that it’s harder for us, yes, but some things we just have to deal with if we want to build and maintain worthwhile relationships with others.
You’re right, Dorothy should learn not to be so rude and inconsiderate.
She was kind of being the opposite of rude and inconsiderate. TOO considerate, if anything.
Speaking to people who are looking away from you is not polite.
It is both rude and inconsiderate to try to tell somebody anything of any importance that way.
Greet them and wait for an acknowledgement before you go on.
A little heedless, maybe, but “not polite”? You sure have some pretty interesting stringent standards of politeness that don’t seem to extend to Joyce.
Joyce did not speak to somebody in these past few strips without waiting for acknowledgement that they knew she was even there.
I honestly thought everybody was taught as a child, as I was by both parents and teachers, that it’s rude to speak to people without acknowledgement. Other people might be doing things. They don’t exist just to pay attention to you whenever you open your mouth.
You think it takes a full minute to say a handful of words?
Pretty sure Joyce had no idea Dorothy was there until she turned around.
Just admit it, everyone, we’re all waiting for Dorothy to eventually snap
*popcorn dot gif*
*popcorn dot mid*
Hey its the Rick and Morty Tax Attorney song!!!
Yeah, all this stuff about moral purity or whatever is completely secondary to enjoying this this antici
…..PATION.
Some good faces in this one.
i was mad at Joyce last strip, but this strip i’m starting to think she’s got that effect (i know it as new diagnosis energy) that when you suddenly realize you are [diagnose here], you notice a LOT of things, attribute them to [diagnose] stop masking them, and start embracing them because they have started making sense. It can feel (to yourself, and to other people) as if you are suddenly less functional.
From her response, she did not know Dorothy was there until she turned around.
from my own experience, I’m not sure “embracing” is really the best word when the thing is “depression”. more like, “oh. huh. …. fuck.”
yeah, i’ve never really managed to *embrace* my depression, but i’ve learned to embrace my anxiety disorder (it just is better to handle when embracing it than when screaming at it, i’ve found) and my ADHD. The ADHD i can get quite euphoric about actually, because sometimes it just feels like i FINALLY know why i struggle – it’s not because i’m lazy or careless, it’s just my brain being wired a different way.
Your mileage may vary, that’s valid!
I have absolutely been the Joyce in this situation so many times at work. I’ll be head-down working on something and a coworker in a neighboring cube will start talking without getting my attention and I won’t realize they’re talking at ME for at least as long as Dorothy was talking to Joyce here. In my book, if you walk up to someone clearly pre-occupied with something else (or just, you know, unaware of your presence) and don’t get their attention before speaking, you don’t get to blame them if they didn’t hear you, even if you’re doing something to help that person out. It’s incredibly unprofessional, not to mention disrespectful. A tap on the shoulder or simply getting into their line of sight is usually enough.
I am excited to see Dorothy take the kid gloves off a bit and have a more honest reaction to things. I’ve honestly felt like their friendship was unbalanced for a long time (Dorothy was giving off biiiig “older siblings’ friend who’s trying to include you” energy up until recently).
YUPPP