Just as well really, according to Jack Chick, Muslims are moon worshippers whose religion was brought in being by the Catholic Church so they would have an excuse to start holy wars, fun stuff… 🙁
He also claimed that the Moon God thing got them easily accepted by Arab polytheists, which was the intent. … Which is why it’s historically recorded that there was a war over its foundation because proposing the Abrahamic deity as the One True God was so controversial. … Yeah, he’s not terribly bright, or concerned with little things like facts.
Offended? no. I laugh at the incompetence of that tract. I could name a lot of mistakes in that tract and I’m not even a scholar. I maybe an asshat but even I don’t go around saying that every religion accept my own is conceived by Satan.
Yeah, even by his standards, that one’s an astounding pile of incoherent inaccuracy that even someone who once heard a vague description of Buddhism from space aliens would realize was totally wrong.
just read the Muslim one, surprised no one got punched in the face. First the dad for insulting the prayer, then the Muslim for insulting Christianity, or the dad for tearing down Islam. currios to read one about my chosen faith.
wow plenty attacking Islam and Catholics, but none attacking Wicca itself. thy skirt around it with Halloween ones but nothing on the core faith. Now I not Wiccan but a lot of my beliefs are similar
They have one on Discordianism? We’re a group, if you chose to call us a group, who have a sense of humor about out beliefs. I’d probably laugh at anything they had to say, but we’re probably too obscure to bash. Oh well.
If ya don’t know what Discordianism is you can read about it here if you’re curious: http://principiadiscordia.com/ Take it or leave it it’s all up to you. If nothing else ya might get a laugh or two out of the reading :3
If you ask me the worst thing about those Chick Tracts is that he honestly seems to believe what he writes which not only makes it impossible to argue with him but also make probably makes him seem that more convincing in person than if he only did it because he hated Muslims and everyone else that doesn’t share his religion. The face that he really believes he is saving souls makes him all that more passionate after all
This…I can’t even form words for this. It’s not so much the sheer ignorance and incompetence of the people who created it, but that there’s probably a whole generation of people who believe it.
I’m a christian and I find these more offensive than most of you appear to… hopefully everyone knows that those tracts represent a vocal minority. Still, it’s embarassing that they’re out there.
First time I saw that site, I was positive it was a joke. Any chance it’s run by a troll and meant as parody? It’d somewhat restore my faith in humanity 🙂
Unfortunately, Jack Chick is no troll — he really believes the stuff he puts in those tracts, and so do a surprising number of other people who call themselves Christians. I’ve met people like him and like Joyce.
(yay replying to 4 year old posts). I’m just gunna say as someone who lives in west texas, is devout to God (I dont like calling myself a Christian as Thou Shalt not Worship any before me, w/e and it feels like saying you worship a mortal) and my best friend is an athiest and we love, appreciate, and understand each others beliefs.
But i get sick and tired of when the topic comes up among anyone here that our (American) Government isnt Christian based they get this look on their face that says “Yea yea, we all know we cant publically say it but EVERYONE KNOWS America is Christian”
But again it IS texas so any vocal minority that is stupid would be increased greatly here.
Not remotely. She always seemed nice, if flawed. Chick tracts are obviously full of lies and stupid and hypocrisy if you look at them with the least critical eye or the slightest amount of knowledge about their subject.
And, more importantly, they’re blatant and proud-of-themselves hate speech.
My theory is this; Joyce was brought up in a strictly Christain environment right? I suspect that evangelising was seen as an important part of being a Christain and Chick Tracts are seen as a handy-dandy way of spreading the message.
To Joyce, they don’t represent hate and intolorence, Chick Tracts are warnings and showcasing the ways the Devil can get you.
You just need to see Chick Tracts from her propective not ours.
I was raised in a strictly Christian environment too, but I never saw a “Chick Tract” until I was in college and friends introduced them to me as the sad, judgmental things they are :/
The type of congregation that employs the Chick Tract is a bit off the standard Christian… er… track, even considering ‘strict’ or ‘conservative.’ For example, Jack Chick’s adherents refuse to wear signs of the cross, because that would be idolatry.
It’s a version of the same problem the Westboro Baptist Church presents. People see Fred Phelps or a Chick Tract, and they think this is representative of Christian thought. Most actual Christians I know, ranging the full spectrum from traditional to charismatic, beg to differ.
Sadly nice and bigoted are not mutually exclusive. My parents are two of the nicest people you will ever meet. They also believe that all homosexuals will burn in hell. As will several other groups according to the stuff I was told growing up. If my parents knew that I was a lesbian I’d have to cut off all contact with them and disappear. I couldn’t let them know my address or my phone number. This is not because they would stop loving me, but because they would never stop trying to change me out of “love.”
If you’ve ever seen that movie But I’m a Cheerleader you’ll know what I’m talking about. My parents would send legions of religious types after me to save me from hell. In a sick way it’s touching but it forces me to choose between hiding who I am around anyone who might ever speak to my family or from losing all contact with my family who I do love despite their flaws.
As I said before I completely agree but while I don’t agree with Jack Chick at all for some reason I can’t help but respect that despite all the criticism he deservedly gets he keeps trying to “help”people in his own stupid ridiculous insensitive uninformed bigoted homophobic racist outdated and just plain offensive way
Not really. Jack Chick isn’t really very popular with the modern “cool” evangelical movement. The movement Jack Chick was part of is mostly dead/de-converted.
I’m not sure Joyce comes from a Modern/Cool Evangelical home instead of one of the older ones. I’ll lay odds she watched a lot of 7th Street Theater and Christiano Brothers films (http://www.christianfilms.com/) too.
I mean, this is a girl who freaked when confronted with Dorothy’s atheism. A modern/cool evangelical Christian would have expected it, and moved on into witnessing.
Good memories indeed…I wrote my honors English high school senior term paper based mostly on debunking the ‘Dark Dungeons’ tract back in 2002…
I REALLY hoped and prayed that this would be a non-issue in a decade…I’m sad to see it is still quite the relevant issue, and Jack Chick is still vomiting out more of his vile tracts…
I hope one of the biggest inaccuracies you pointed out was the sheer impossibility, for the time period, of an equal amount of males and females playing at a game. 😀
I liked that the game wasn’t even portrayed as evil. The evil witch used it to keep an eye on which children would be best to recruit to her coven, but even in Dark Dungeons DnD is just a game.
A game that the author clearly doesn’t know how to play, but just a game.
Heck, even now the only women in the group I play with are the DM’s wife, and me. LOL. Okay that was funny though.. people actually take those things, the tracts I mean, seriously?
For the longest time our gaming group was 2 couples (my best friend and I, and our boyfriends). I love being a girl gamer 😀 My friend and I even dabble in GMing a bit ourselves, though her boyfriend is the main GM in our group 🙂
I referenced Chick on an English paper once. He wasn’t the subject, specifically, but I used him as an example.
The professor apparently read the citation page first, because she had written “This is NOT an acceptable source!” over that citation in big red letters. And then crossed it out and wrote “Never mind. Well done!”
yeah, I felt kind of gipped the first time I read the comic. I’ve been playing D&D for AGES and still have yet to see that “mind bondage” spell in any source books…
I’m totally making a monster called “The Zombie.” You can only fight him by yourself, and it’s a self run fight, so the DM doesn’t need to be there. Also, there is only one of him, and he never truly dies. Like the Tarrasque.
I agree. Just because you’re a bit of a religious shut-in… doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be a kookoo-ka-choo Jack Chick tract-reading religious shut-in…
Fun Fact: I was in a chritian almost-cult in my teenage years, and they wouldn’t let us read chick tracts because they said he was a whacko… that coming from a fundie church.
That’s the author’s intent, but they don’t. They’re really very un-Christ-like.
They’re more like… religiousness-themed hate speech. Against gays, Dungeons and Dragons*, Muslims, other types of Christians… I believe there’s some implications about race, too, from what I’ve seen, but he doesn’t say it outright.
They contradict the Bible a bit and basic facts a whole lot. It’s like.. *really* obvious that his facts are made up and he didn’t do any research if you know anything about the subject.
*I believe, though it’s been a while since I’ve paid any attention to the subject so I may be misremembering, that Chick was one of the first to speak out against DnD, so he was actually being a little original there. His way with facts is also “original”, but that’s different.
Weird how I have a degree in chemistry and have never heard of gluons before. Also, do people really take these seriously? I mean they’re all just so… wow.
Gluons are the particles mediate the strong nuclear force, under some older particle theories. Not sure if they are still around in current models. Can’t blame Chick for being behind on current particle physics.
People not only take these seriously, they actually think they’re useful tools for evangelism. Just hand people – grown people, mind you, not small children – a little comic book, and you can change their deepest convictions, because the truth of (Jack’s brand of fundamentalist) Christianity is so obvious, the only reason people could possibly not believe in it is because they haven’t heard about it. Or they’re being stubborn, in which case they need a few details about Hell.
All these years I thought “gumshoe” meant an amateur detective because they weren’t observant and would step on gum, getting it on their shoes. DAMN YOU CHILDREN’S TELEVISION!
I finally understand Dick Gumshoe’s name…I was trying so hard to find the pun in it but I couldn’t until just now 0_0
Stuff like Luke Atmy and Will Powers were easy but Gumshoe is a bit harder to know, haha.
Is there anyone who actually takes Chick Tracts seriously? I thought they existed solely to be made fun of. I’m not even certain Jack Chick takes them seriously.
There are a couple that are pretty decent, as far as tracts go. Most of those are older ones. It’s jusdt that he went so far off the rails so early that the vast majority of his tracts are weeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiird.
Finding them is hard, but there are some people who do take them seriously. Generally, you find them standing on street corners yelling at the top of their lungs about one gospel or the other.
That has happened to me at least twice, maybe thrice, I always take them home haha, me and my mum love to read them and laugh at the insanity. I recently decided that if I see any more at work I’m going to save them, just like I used to save the fake million dollar bills (there were a lot more of those than I thought at first).
I want to collect them all…but that may be my mild OCD that I may of may not have…the same one that makes me keep typing even when I’ve said all I want to…oh wait…BYE!!!
All I know is that someone posted them on a bulletin board at my school. Without any smilie faces or “jk” signs nearby. If it was a joke, it didn’t work out so well, because I recycled them about ten minutes after they were put up.
And for anyone who doesn’t grasp why fundamentalist cartoonist Jack Chick and D&D co-creator Gary Gygax make a particularly striking combination, please see Dark Dungeons:
There’s gotta be some kind of tactless joke about how allah cannot be seen by mortal eyes and the phrase “sneak attack” somewhere…
Probably something Mike would say at the game table. He’s a jerk like that.
You know, I’m surprised, but not really that much. Most people are nice when you meet them face-to-face. It’s human nature to try and get along with the people around you, one way or another. It’s just easier.
That said, to quote “Into the Woods”, nice is different than good.
I thought the only real problem the hardcore Christians had with science was the whole evolution thing. Normal biology seems to be unassailable fact presently.
Evolution is the end result of genetics+time. It’s basic. And attempting to understand biology while dismissing evolution is doomed to failure, as our taxonomic system is based on all species being related. Beyond that, evolution is a huge factor in the current war against bacteria, as bacteria is constantly evolving immunities to our treatments.
While I agree that the child should have been given medical care, I also believe (from what I read) that some of the state’s actions were Unconstitutional.
From what I recall from school all those decades ago, Natural Selection is the process where certain traits that prevent an organism from been able to survive long enough to mate successful and produce viable offspring are eliminated from the gene pool.
It’s also the process through which any new traits gained by mutations that prove to be valuable are preserved and passed on through the ages.
Natural selection is part of Evolution rather than a different thing altogether. In fact, natural selection is what makes Darwin’s theory of evolution different from other, outdated models like Lamarck’s (which purported that creatures simply mutated specifically to adapt to an environment – i.e. a giraffe would simply grow a larger neck if it encountered taller trees, then pass on longer neck genes afterwards. It didn’t make much sense).
Natural selection as a mechanism for evolution is what allowed Darwin’s hypothesis to become a scientific theory – i.e. the reason it’s considered a proven fact. Sadly people think theory is synonymous with hypothesis (i.e. it means “a really good guess”), and thus we have this whole kerfluffle.
I mean, I haven’t taken Biology since ninth grade but it was in the book then. It can be gathered through the context of the strip that at the very least Joyce believes it to be in Dorothy’s biology textbook.
Joyce is asking Dorothy not to bring the book with evolution in it to the dinner. Anything else about whether it’s integral to the science or not is kind of beside the point.
It is, but from my biology textbooks (of which I have quite a bit) it’s mostly sidelined in favor of CURRENT biology. As in, what goes on in the normal day to day bodily workings of every day organisms.
A large part of what goes on in the normal day to day bodily workings of every day organisms and ecosystems can be explained only in relation to evolutionary concepts. You can’t skip a thorough explanation of evolution in any complete biology curriculum.
Oh, okay, that makes your statement a bit less weird to me then. Modern biology courses do tend to sideline the more interesting bigger picture stuff in favor of cell mitosis and the like, at least at the high school level. I find that kind of frustrating, but I suppose people think it’s more applicable (and definitely less controversial – case in point, the long list of comments this exchange caused).
Anyway, this comics is good and fun for all! Woo, back on topic!
Well, some YECs (Young Earth Creationists) are going after geology and maybe physics (radiodating) as well. And yeah, a *good* biology book will talk a lot about evolution and natural selection. OTOH, Creationists can assimilate and pass on a lot of biological facts while calling them evidence of god’s design rather than evolved. Joyce may figure that Dorothy’s hypothetical biology textbook would be pretty pro-evolution.
How does how loud the fundies are have anything to do with the majority? Do you also believe that most football fans go to games shirtless in body paint? Do you believe most Star Trek fans learn to speak Klingon and own a Bat’leth? Not that there is anything wrong with either example, but if you are basing your perceptions of the majority of a group on the actions of its loudest members, you are in for a rude awakening.
Personally, I never met a single person at either of the Catholic schools I went to as a kid who DIDN’T believe in evolution.
Addendum to my above statement: I never met a single STUDENT who didn’t believe in evolution. The nuns and priests were kind of required to believe in creationism, I suppose. Oddly, the nun who taught science actually taught evolution and didn’t mention creationism in class in any way (that was for religion class)… I’m curious how she made that jive with the higher ups, now that I think about it…
Actually, my point was they are loud enough that they tend to scew polls in weird ways due to over representation in most polls due to a level of volunteering being required (as an example, if not accurate: 1 of ten average christians will answer a poll, 5 of ten fundies will). Also, your catholic upbringing is relatively low on the threat index when it comes to creationism vs evolution, as they have been comparatively moderate in their reaction to the idea, whereis american protestant groups tend to get a little more “funny”.
The issue with students is that people often become more religious as they get older. I’ve only met a handful of kids/teens who were very religious, but I think there’s a sort of madness that comes with facing and accepting adulthood that results in lunacy of different kinds and flavours, and bible beating is one of those many possibilities.
On the other hand, it depends on how much you assume of someone just because you get on with them well enough. I like my mum and I’d like to say she believes in evolution, but looking back on it she’s never talked much about her personal beliefs because above all she’s always wanted my siblings and myself to do what we feel is right without her pushing us. That is what makes a good person of any belief system to me – accepting others’ rights to believe what they wish even if it conflicts with one’s own.
It is judgemental to say that most christians don’t believe in evolution, however as it’s still a hotly contested topic, apparently there are enough people with enough of a voice to make it still extremely contested regardless of the fact that genetics proves it pretty unequivocally.
As far as people becoming more religious when they get older, maybe I’m just weird, but I’ve been the opposite. When I was a kid and even in my early twenties, I just kind of went along with being Christian because that’s what my family was and I didn’t give it much thought beyond that. Now that I’m older, I’ve thought more about what I believe, and I’m somewhere between agnostic and deist. And my husband hasn’t gone quite that far, but he’s gone from being fairly fundamentalist to believing in evolution and not believing in unsolicited evangelism.
Yeah I’m with Michael on this one I’ve never met any Catholic (from my upbringing) that went against creationism. But there are so many sects of Christianity that skew the Bible and use it for their own “holy agenda” against whatever they feel is deemed inappropriate.
I think most major biology textbooks would probably have something about evolution, though, unless they were about some restricted topic. It is a pretty big deal in biology.
Also given that the reveal of Dorothy’s nonbelief sent her into a hiccupping fit, Joyce we can assume Joyce has never met an atheist before. She probably has some hilarious misconceptions about what atheism actually is.
For all we know she could think atheists all worship Charles Darwin. Nah, probably not. That might be too weird and strawman-y.
Seriously, reading Chick tracts are a hilarious way to spend an evening, if you can tolerate the happily illustrated hate and intolerance for any faith or way of life that varies in even the slightest way from theirs. And they’re so conveniently available online…http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
WTF with all these people not knowing from Chick tracts? How do you not know from Chick tracts? Hell, dude just did a sequel to Why No Revival?, which implies that folks would grasp the freakin’ continuity!
These kids with their Going Wild and their Donkey Ollie and their iShine Knect. They don’t know the classics anymore.
I’m suddenly chuckling at the notion of one day finding that Joyce is into Moral Oral, but because of her background and personality type completely misses every joke at the expense of Christianity. Blatantly crazy shit they’re saying sounding perfectly sane to her.
Just picturing her sitting down and enjoying what she considers to be really wholesome programming.
I don’t think so. Chick’s art has always been pretty crappy. He had his stroke in 1996, and you can see his earlier art was pretty bad too. (For example “Cleo from 1995. Is that bearded mutt with ridiculous eyelashes supposed to be cute?)
If you’re thinking about the well drawn Chick tract art, that was all done by Fred Carter, though Chick never put Carter’s name on any of the tracts.
If this goes well, this is something that should happen much more often than it does.
That being Christians (or anyone religious for that matter) and Atheists getting along and actually talking for the simple reason that being nice is a nice thing to do. :3
I thought Chick Tracts were larger, but I’ve never seen them in real life.
I’d love to have a signed copy of Dark Dungeons.
…wait, do I have a Joyce gravatar?
I never realised that Chick Tracts were international until I was handed one last year.
I kinda regret my immediate reaction, which was to hand it back to the guy and say “I don’t want this because I know where it came from”. It would have made an interesting souvenir.
I have had the misfortune of being handed a few of them, they do look very much like that, and yes! I know many not crazy christians, yet christians who not only believe those, but use them to attempt to convert others do exist! I worked with one – everyone thought he was decent enough until some sign came up that your beliefs didn’t quite mesh with his. He rode a motorcycle and had tattoos, though, so I think at one point he was actually a Totally Rad Atheist, but at that point he admitted he was shamed by his younger days.
Going to a secular college will be good for Joyce. Hopefully she’ll learn that being a Christian and being a well-balanced, nonjudgmental person with friends from all walks of life aren’t mutually exclusive.
Funny how many Christians forget that Jesus sat down with cheats and whores, and got berated by the fundies of his time for doing so.
He sat down TO CONVERT THEM. Exactly what Joyce was trying to do. “Any man can turn from sin” and all that jazz.
I wrote something on the-comic-that-shall-not-be-named’s comments about DoA having comparatively slow character development, but it looks like Joyce will be getting some soon.
It’s true that what we see in the Bible is Jesus working with sinners, trying (and always succeeding, of course) to get them to follow his path and amend their lives – that’s what the Bible is for. However, Jesus was wise enough to know that you don’t accomplish that by handing out little comics and telling people how superior your way is while trying to stay completely sheltered and pure yourself. He went out among the people and met them on their own terms, using his magic to help them, denouncing corrupt authorities and generally treating them with a kindness that wasn’t just unusual for the time, it made him look bad to “respectable” people.
In fact, it’s clear that at least some of these people are his friends, which implies that he spent time with them doing things other than preaching – enough to get him called “a glutton and a wine-bibber” by the “respectable people” at least.
Ya know, despite Joyce demonstrating that she’s the kind of fundie who goes for YEC and Chick Tracts…This strip actually makes me more optimistic for her character. Try to be nice to the “weird godless one” because she’s nice too? Agreeing to drop conversion attempts? That’s already a pretty good start. If you have basic decency, beliefs are (more often than not) secondary.
Exactly! How can you have basic decency if you are willing to let a person continue sinning, corrupting their eternal soul, and treating their body like an amusement park at 3pm while leaving the door unlocked?
YOUR beliefs. I meant YOUR beliefs are secondary to whether or not you have basic decency. (That’s the general you, not “you” you.) In most cases, good people will be nice, and dicks will act like dicks, no matter their actual beliefs.
And “LET a person continue sinning”? You’re not that person. You can’t make their decisions for them. You can be their friends, stay by their side (which does not always mean supporting their actions), show them love. You can try to explain to them why you think something is not in their best interest (though you won’t go far unless you’re also willing to listen). But you can’t make them non-sinners against their will (for whatever definition of “sinner” you’re using).
A lady coming out of a fortune-telling-type shop asked me out of nowhere if I wanted something to read, but I said no. I had thought she and her companion didn’t seem to be the types to be coming from there, so my first thought was Chick tracts and that they’d gone in to harass the owners and/or clients. Since I turned her down and walked away, I’m not entirely sure, of course.
Closest I’ve ever come to seeing one in real life.
My ex-boyfriend did get harassed by a few fundamentalists standing around the lobby in my dorm once. They were bothering people and passing out things (not Chick tracts, though), but most just ignored them. He decided to engage one of ’em.
“Jesus says that you’re guilty of adultery if you’ve ever lusted after a woman in your heart!” he said, “And haven’t you done so?”
“What?” says my very confused ex (Two notes: I am male, and we entered the building holding hands), “No.”
“Aw, come on. Really? Never?”
“Lusted after women? No, no I haven’t.”
He didn’t believe it.
It.. really wasn’t where I expected the conversation to go.
Somebody at my old job used to leave Chick Tracts on people’s desks, back before you could get fired for such things. Definitely hate-filled reading material….
The stealth joke here is that she’s asking for her biology textbook, specifically. Not, you know, history, or astronomy, or philosophy or anything else. Evolution debate call-out?
Religion in comics tires me incredibly, although probably not as much as it would to actually live in the US and live through it.
Telling the truth, there’s a lot less of this kind of thing than you’d think. I live in what’s derisively termed ‘flyover country’ AND went to a Southern Baptist church and I’ve never been handed one of these. The only person who actually tries converting me is the nice Mormon lady I see once every couple of weeks.
Eh, depends on where you are, I guess. I’ve had plenty of people try to convert me, and I’ve even been handed a couple of these. Personally, I just take them and immediately throw them away. The only ones that really bother me are the ones who go door-to-door, because I always feel a little bad about sending them away. I’m more okay with the ones that approach me in public, because I’ve found that I can make them go away pretty fast by just acting kind of distracted and saying “yes” to everything they say. Don’t elaborate or argue, and they’ll generally get bored and wander off after maybe half a dozen yesses.
Most fundy-ish Christians around here don’t realize that their religion is contradicted by stuff in virtually *every* field of serious scientific study – they’re only really aware of the evolution issue.
Leaving aside her crazy Chick tract converting ways, IIRC biology is a requirement for graduation from most four-year colleges/universities… I wonder what’ll happen if/when Joyce actually has to take bio… 😛
Depends on the college and your major. And if you’re not a science major yourself, I think you usually have a fair degree of flexibility in terms of how you choose to fill that. (My school was on the much looser end in terms of distribution requirements, though.)
In the three colleges/unis I’ve been to, psychology was a humanities (lumped in with history, etc.) not a science. ^O__o^;; … which, on an unrelated note, has me wondering why the psych department wasn’t up in arms about the whole “is psychology a real science or not” thing… 😛
In Texas, the core curriculum requires you to take two semesters of lower level science classes for any two or four year degree. More, of course, if you are a science major(or related fields, like a medical degree of some kind).
As an English major, I am taking Environmental Science I and II. Other options were Astronomy, Geology, and Bio I and II. If I wanted to take more, I suppose I could, but I’ve never been particularly interested in science.
It works that way for most other subjects, too. I’ll never take another math class, now that I have passed College Algebra.
And I know math and science majors who won’t ever set foot in another writing/english class, now that they’ve met their 2 semester Freshman Comp. requirement.
Though I do have to say that for this version of Joyce it doesn’t feel like too much of a stretch. Joyce 1.0 (Roomie/Walky) doesn’t seem to be the type to have any of the tracts, not even in her super religious times.
Wow, I never thought of Joyce as a Chick Tract reader before. Kinda hard for me to see the character doing that. I can sorta see it from a throwaway “Gosh, ain’t her beliefs wacky?” joke kind of way, but thinking about it beyond that just feels weird.
Then again, maybe that’s just me imprinting characterization from Roomies! onto her in this universe.
Yeah, I have no trouble seeing Joyce with a couple of “Four Spiritual Laws” pamphlets in her purse, but Chick Tracts were not exactly expected. Still, “Chick Tracts” is funnier than just “tracts.”
One of Joyce’s key character traits is her naivete. She often doesn’t realize that some of the things she says are offensive, or even why they might be offensive to the people she is directing them toward. We don’t know what her opinions about the Tracts themselves are. She may find them hyperbolic and possibly a little mean at times.
And keep in mind, to her, Dorothy is already a Worst Case Scenario: an atheist. So perhaps she feels the “big guns” are warranted.
Good points. I did actually think to myself, “Okay, so she’s probably at least somewhat discriminating about which ones she carries around, right? She’s gotta realize how offensive and poorly-argued at least some of these are!” And the mental image of Joyce sitting on the floor in her room sorting through tracts brings a smile to my face.
I received one of those once where the first sentence was “You could be dead in five minutes.” I decided to read some of it. It was hilariously offensive.
I can’t believe I read all of the comments on this one. I think this is the first time I’ve seen a web comic comment section get so serious about religion. It’s kind of refreshing from all of the l33t noob talk when someone gets offended.
Chick Tract readers are like spies in TF2. You never know who one is until they hit you with the revelation…or a backstab.
Honestly, thinking back on a few strips I think I can see it. Still, something a little less ‘BURN!” would be more her style if she knew about them. It could be that her family has been giving them to her, and she might not have any other tracts to give.
Bonus Points: Point out the homosexual subtext in some of his tracts, and how the muscular, obviously stereotyped gay men are hyper-detailed yet women are basically rush-drawn. Drives readers into fits.
I have to admit I have never been able to read through a whole Chick Tract. I usually actually feel physically ill by the end. As a Pagan I am used to misrepresentations of my religion and to finding the same for other religions but the sheer amount of ignorance with slapped on “facts” in the tracts is quite disturbing.
I’m hardly surprised that Joyce had intended to try and convert Dorothy. I’m actually more surprised she hasn’t tried doing it to more people yet. And its amazing how she can be both cute and horribly judgmental at the same time (“Godless ways”? Really Joyce?)
But WHY does the fact Dorothy being atheist “scare the poop” out of her? I mean, I get that she was raised to believe in god and Jesus, but not believing in Christianity is hardly to be afraid of. Like she herself said, “Dorothy is nice” and she’s never once tried to dissuade Joyce from believing in God. I can understand Joyce being confused by the idea that someone doesn’t want to believe in religion, but why be afraid?
And meanwhile… Is Joyce afraid that Dorothy will try and convert her with the power of SCIENCE?!
Umm… Joyce DOES know that she’ll have to study science while in college right? I mean, all the colleges I’m familiar with require biology or a similar science related subject on a student’s transcripts, don’t they?
“Godless ways” isn’t judgmental. It’s just accurate. Pretty much the textbook definition of atheist. To call her ways anything to the contrary of Godless would just be wrong.
And there’s a whole slew of reasons why it would scare her. The one I feel like listing right now is that Joyce has always been lead to believe that happiness and peace come from being at one with God. Here’s Dororthy who’s very existence contradicts Joyce’s most fundamental beliefs simply by nature of being a nonbeliever who’s overall happy and has her shit together.
As a side note I’m a college student who hasn’t taken any science credits since ninth grade. Almost set up to transfer to a university now. It’s not really an issue unless you’re in a science program of some sort. Though it occurs to me that I’ve certainly taken courses she wouldn’t have enjoyed. Physical Anthropology would have given her a field day lol. Sociology wouldn’t have been sunshine and rainbows for her either. Not sure how she’d feel about psych or philosophy.
…I can think of maybe a couple courses I’ve taken that she would have been able to cope with. Jesus man. It’s getting pretty crazy now that I’m working through the list. Do we think she would have been able to handle a course on fantasy/sci-fi or comic books? Because I think that might be all I got for her. Even generic essay writing had us covering some articles on various primates and how they relate to us.
I’ve know a number of people who were home school and Christian. And while they’ve acted confused and at times judgement about people who don’t believe in God, I’ve never actually seen them be afraid.
Not all homeschooled Christians are weird/fundies. I’m homeschooled, and I’m Christian, but my parents aren’t really any religion, so I wasn’t raised like a homeschooled Christian, and if I had been I suspect being gay would be a hell of a lot more awkward. And my BFF, who is homeschooled and Christian, and raised by Christians, is normal enough. The only fundie I know well isn’t homeschooled at all.
So some Christian homeschooled people are messed up but not some/most of them.
I’m sorry, but from personal experience when a religious person has used the phrase “Godless ways”, around me its always been with a judgmental tone behind it. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone call another person “godless” without it meaning something bad. I myself am gay and agnostic, and have had christian zealots call me godless to my face with obvious judgement. I hear or read the word “godless” and expect there to be judgement behind it. Sorry.
But you can’t deny that a part of Joyce is judging Dorothy. After all, she did bring her tapes along with the intent of trying to convert her.
And even if Dorothy’s life contradicts the way Joyce was raised, that still doesn’t explain her fear. Her religion taught her to try and lead people towards Christianity (as demonstrated here). That probably implies they taught her about Atheists not being evil, but just needing “help to find the ‘right’ path”. I mean, that’s what I was taught in Catholic School. I mean, unless her church actually tried to teach her that Athiests are evil and dangerous, I don’t understand how she can be so scared that she would hiccup.
As for college, my experience was slightly different than you. I went to a state college for undergrad and for me Intro to Biology was a required course, unless you tested out of it. You also had to take 2 additional science courses like Sociology, Chemistry or a higher level of biology.
And considering Joyce’s heavy relgious feelings, unless the comics were those crappy religious comics, I don’t think she could handle many main stream books very well. I can’t imagine you being able to handle the idea that all the Super-heroes dying and coming back from the dead, and not be Jesus. Add to that, some comics kinda contradict the ideas of the Christian God’s existance, such as Thor and Asgard, Jean Grey/Phoenix Force, Wonder Woman and the Greek Gods, The White Lantern Entity being the source of creation, etc…
I think Joyce just carries Chick Tracts with her at all times. Just like how you’ll never find me without a videogame or two on my person.
I didn’t say Dorothy contradicted how Joyce was raise. I said Dorothy contradicts Joyce’s most fundamental beliefs. To Joyce it would be no different than if you met a man in perfect health who does not need to breath. Up until this moment Joyce would have believed Dorothy to be an impossibility and the very existence of Dorothy defies everything that Joyce thinks is real.
My mistake, although she was raised with those beliefs playing a major role. Either way though, I understand her being surprised by the idea that people who don’t believe in god exist. So her meeting someone so different would be confusing and a bit of a surprise. But actually saying she fears that person is the part I don’t understand. I mean, if I met a men who did not need to breath, I wouldn’t be afraid of him, particularly if he poses no threat to me. I’d be confused, and I’d certainly want to understand how they live like that, but I don’t see fear playing into it.
I dunno… I guess I just expected Joyce to do to Dorothy what she did to Joe, and question him excessively about her beliefs and why they differ her own.
Eh, personally I gotta say that when faced with an impossibility that completely falsifies everything that is supposed to be real, fear is a pretty natural reaction. The sight of an entity who’s very existence deconstructs reality itself can be scary. Doesn’t mean that it’s the only reaction someone can experience, but it’s certainly one reaction.
The implications are far reaching. If God is not the only source of happiness and peace then that changes everything. It rewrites her absolute and self evident truths to questionable doctrines. Recolors her parents from wise and benevolent figures to naive and potentially cracked people who perhaps haven’t left Joyce as prepared for the world as they could have. Reillustrates her world from one where a benevolent force micromanages everything and decides who’s happy and who’s sad to one where people are capable of taking their own fates and happiness into their own hands. Reshades her life spent on the one true path to a life spent unquestioningly on one of multiple paths, and begs the question of where she is going. Questions in a world where there were none before.
Dorothy is not a direct threat as such. Not a threat to Joyce. Certainly a threat to everything Joyce has ever valued. Her continuing to engage in pleasantries with Dorothy shows strength of character in the decision to not turn a blind eye to this knowledge regardless of how frightening or unpleasant it may be. Many in her position would retreat into their bubble rather than proceed forward with the faith that her truths can withstand this.
Joe was just a hedonistic Jew in her eyes.The pleasures of the devil meant to draw God’s followers away from happiness. By their nature they provide a temporary sense of joy and wellbeing. A euphoria of sorts. Else they wouldn’t be alluring. Joyce has faith that Joe’s life will catch up with him and he’ll find himself in a hollow and miserable existence without the lord. Even in the Chick Tracts, witchcraft, DnD, Islam etc are fun at first. They take a dark turn later.
Dorothy is something else entirely. Her happiness is not a temporary thing wrought of the devil. There is no sin to explain this, nor is her happiness the euphoria of a decadent lifestyle. She’s just happy, completely free of divine of demonic influence. Independently happy if you will.
I confess I don’t know (perhaps blissfully) what Chick Tracts are, but I do find it ironic how even Joyce clearly equates atheism with knowledge, seeing as she’s asking Dorothy to leave behind an educational tool.
…yeah, why _is_ she carrying around Chick Tracts? Even at this point in her characterization, it’s kinda hard to believe that she’d have any on her at all, given how well she seems to know the Bible and how they contradict both it and what she’s seen of the world (well, Indiana) by now.
the craziest conspiracy stuff christianity ever brought to the table, also weirdly racist for no reason sometimes
in it he literally equates everything to the devil
i mean i was pretty damn christian but even the most fundamentalist of my acquaintances could see how crazy some of the chick tracts were
i guess they just use the safer ones to try and convert? not the racist crazy ones XD or maybe they do? joyce didnt seem like the super crazy kind but you never know……
my bus driver thought the president was the antichrist, and he seemed normal enough until then
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Joyce reads Chick Tracts? That’s a shocker.
huh. I thought you listened to chick tracts. Those are cassette tapes right?
I don’t read them. I’m a Muslim.
Well not you personally, but I thought Chick Tracts were something that were listened to. Audio Cassettes.
Just as well really, according to Jack Chick, Muslims are moon worshippers whose religion was brought in being by the Catholic Church so they would have an excuse to start holy wars, fun stuff… 🙁
He also claimed that the Moon God thing got them easily accepted by Arab polytheists, which was the intent. … Which is why it’s historically recorded that there was a war over its foundation because proposing the Abrahamic deity as the One True God was so controversial. … Yeah, he’s not terribly bright, or concerned with little things like facts.
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
For everybody!
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
Extra special reading for Aizat if you want to make sure your offended tonight!
Don’t do it, IT’S A TRAP.
Must… avoid… crappy religious nutcase…
Ackbar! Is that you!?
Remember, kids- WWAD?
…It’s a TRAP!
Is it really a trap if you know what it is?
Everything is always a trap.
…that is why Humperdink is still alive.
Offended? no. I laugh at the incompetence of that tract. I could name a lot of mistakes in that tract and I’m not even a scholar. I maybe an asshat but even I don’t go around saying that every religion accept my own is conceived by Satan.
Good for you. I’ve read a few of the ones aimed at things that I’m sympathetic to. I think water off a duck’s back is the way to go.
I’m glad that you can keep calm about this. If I saw one about my religion, I probably would be very angry.
never mind, I found one, and while not angry, I am amazed at the incompetence, and broken logic/knowledge it uses.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp
it made me go http://memedepot.com/view.php?page=1148
So many times, it’s not even funny.
Yeah, even by his standards, that one’s an astounding pile of incoherent inaccuracy that even someone who once heard a vague description of Buddhism from space aliens would realize was totally wrong.
I’m a Humanist, I don’t know if there’s any Chick Tracts related to that, but I still find it very sad that they exist.
just read the Muslim one, surprised no one got punched in the face. First the dad for insulting the prayer, then the Muslim for insulting Christianity, or the dad for tearing down Islam. currios to read one about my chosen faith.
wow plenty attacking Islam and Catholics, but none attacking Wicca itself. thy skirt around it with Halloween ones but nothing on the core faith. Now I not Wiccan but a lot of my beliefs are similar
They have one on Discordianism? We’re a group, if you chose to call us a group, who have a sense of humor about out beliefs. I’d probably laugh at anything they had to say, but we’re probably too obscure to bash. Oh well.
If ya don’t know what Discordianism is you can read about it here if you’re curious: http://principiadiscordia.com/ Take it or leave it it’s all up to you. If nothing else ya might get a laugh or two out of the reading :3
If you ask me the worst thing about those Chick Tracts is that he honestly seems to believe what he writes which not only makes it impossible to argue with him but also make probably makes him seem that more convincing in person than if he only did it because he hated Muslims and everyone else that doesn’t share his religion. The face that he really believes he is saving souls makes him all that more passionate after all
This…I can’t even form words for this. It’s not so much the sheer ignorance and incompetence of the people who created it, but that there’s probably a whole generation of people who believe it.
I’m not offended, either, and I’m Muslim. I just find it…really, really stupid. I laughed when reading it. xD
I’m a christian and I find these more offensive than most of you appear to… hopefully everyone knows that those tracts represent a vocal minority. Still, it’s embarassing that they’re out there.
First time I saw that site, I was positive it was a joke. Any chance it’s run by a troll and meant as parody? It’d somewhat restore my faith in humanity 🙂
Unfortunately, Jack Chick is no troll — he really believes the stuff he puts in those tracts, and so do a surprising number of other people who call themselves Christians. I’ve met people like him and like Joyce.
(yay replying to 4 year old posts). I’m just gunna say as someone who lives in west texas, is devout to God (I dont like calling myself a Christian as Thou Shalt not Worship any before me, w/e and it feels like saying you worship a mortal) and my best friend is an athiest and we love, appreciate, and understand each others beliefs.
But i get sick and tired of when the topic comes up among anyone here that our (American) Government isnt Christian based they get this look on their face that says “Yea yea, we all know we cant publically say it but EVERYONE KNOWS America is Christian”
But again it IS texas so any vocal minority that is stupid would be increased greatly here.
Thank you for sharing. Also, get me some brain bleach.
Sometimes you got to take one in the head.
Extremly~ Late but… asalaam alaikum!
3 years late but good to see one of us admit this on the web.
No, you read them. It’s like a comic strip of some sort.
No, you’re thinking of chick TRACKS.
Chick tracts are the Christian version of the crazy aunt nobody takes seriously and people wish would stop making everyone else look that crazy
No surprise to me whatsoever, Jack Chick fits her so well.
Not remotely. She always seemed nice, if flawed. Chick tracts are obviously full of lies and stupid and hypocrisy if you look at them with the least critical eye or the slightest amount of knowledge about their subject.
And, more importantly, they’re blatant and proud-of-themselves hate speech.
My theory is this; Joyce was brought up in a strictly Christain environment right? I suspect that evangelising was seen as an important part of being a Christain and Chick Tracts are seen as a handy-dandy way of spreading the message.
To Joyce, they don’t represent hate and intolorence, Chick Tracts are warnings and showcasing the ways the Devil can get you.
You just need to see Chick Tracts from her propective not ours.
This is why it fits her character.
I was raised in a strictly Christian environment too, but I never saw a “Chick Tract” until I was in college and friends introduced them to me as the sad, judgmental things they are :/
The type of congregation that employs the Chick Tract is a bit off the standard Christian… er… track, even considering ‘strict’ or ‘conservative.’ For example, Jack Chick’s adherents refuse to wear signs of the cross, because that would be idolatry.
It’s a version of the same problem the Westboro Baptist Church presents. People see Fred Phelps or a Chick Tract, and they think this is representative of Christian thought. Most actual Christians I know, ranging the full spectrum from traditional to charismatic, beg to differ.
Sadly nice and bigoted are not mutually exclusive. My parents are two of the nicest people you will ever meet. They also believe that all homosexuals will burn in hell. As will several other groups according to the stuff I was told growing up. If my parents knew that I was a lesbian I’d have to cut off all contact with them and disappear. I couldn’t let them know my address or my phone number. This is not because they would stop loving me, but because they would never stop trying to change me out of “love.”
If you’ve ever seen that movie But I’m a Cheerleader you’ll know what I’m talking about. My parents would send legions of religious types after me to save me from hell. In a sick way it’s touching but it forces me to choose between hiding who I am around anyone who might ever speak to my family or from losing all contact with my family who I do love despite their flaws.
Flaws and stupidity I’ll agree with.
Hypocrisy, on the other hand, I won’t. Jack Chick clearly believes everything in those tracts, and clearly believes he is saving souls with them.
It doesn’t make the tracts any less offensive, mind. If anything, it scares me a little more.
As I said before I completely agree but while I don’t agree with Jack Chick at all for some reason I can’t help but respect that despite all the criticism he deservedly gets he keeps trying to “help”people in his own stupid ridiculous insensitive uninformed bigoted homophobic racist outdated and just plain offensive way
Not really. Jack Chick isn’t really very popular with the modern “cool” evangelical movement. The movement Jack Chick was part of is mostly dead/de-converted.
I’m not sure Joyce comes from a Modern/Cool Evangelical home instead of one of the older ones. I’ll lay odds she watched a lot of 7th Street Theater and Christiano Brothers films (http://www.christianfilms.com/) too.
I mean, this is a girl who freaked when confronted with Dorothy’s atheism. A modern/cool evangelical Christian would have expected it, and moved on into witnessing.
My favorite Chick tract is Dark Dungeons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
HIL-ARIOUS
Ah Good memories. I’ve been handed so many of those. I used to work in a place next to one of the fundie shopped stores.
Good memories indeed…I wrote my honors English high school senior term paper based mostly on debunking the ‘Dark Dungeons’ tract back in 2002…
I REALLY hoped and prayed that this would be a non-issue in a decade…I’m sad to see it is still quite the relevant issue, and Jack Chick is still vomiting out more of his vile tracts…
**SIGH**
I hope one of the biggest inaccuracies you pointed out was the sheer impossibility, for the time period, of an equal amount of males and females playing at a game. 😀
I liked that the game wasn’t even portrayed as evil. The evil witch used it to keep an eye on which children would be best to recruit to her coven, but even in Dark Dungeons DnD is just a game.
A game that the author clearly doesn’t know how to play, but just a game.
Heck, even now the only women in the group I play with are the DM’s wife, and me. LOL. Okay that was funny though.. people actually take those things, the tracts I mean, seriously?
For the longest time our gaming group was 2 couples (my best friend and I, and our boyfriends). I love being a girl gamer 😀 My friend and I even dabble in GMing a bit ourselves, though her boyfriend is the main GM in our group 🙂
The two groups I am in are gender balanced! I know, it’s a rarity. I feel like it’s becoming less of a unicorn situation though.
I referenced Chick on an English paper once. He wasn’t the subject, specifically, but I used him as an example.
The professor apparently read the citation page first, because she had written “This is NOT an acceptable source!” over that citation in big red letters. And then crossed it out and wrote “Never mind. Well done!”
i love that he includes a warning to any would-be excorcists.
this needs to be updated. replace dungeons and dragons with pokemon.
DAMN! I wish playing D&D gave superpowers! I’d be Jesus by now. But actually, though. Level six cleric is Jesus.
yeah, I felt kind of gipped the first time I read the comic. I’ve been playing D&D for AGES and still have yet to see that “mind bondage” spell in any source books…
I’m totally making a monster called “The Zombie.” You can only fight him by yourself, and it’s a self run fight, so the DM doesn’t need to be there. Also, there is only one of him, and he never truly dies. Like the Tarrasque.
I love that one. Personally, though, this Darkseid parody is my favorite: http://cissie-king.livejournal.com/13838.html. He’s the Tiger-Force at the core of all things!
I agree. Just because you’re a bit of a religious shut-in… doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be a kookoo-ka-choo Jack Chick tract-reading religious shut-in…
What is Chick Tract?
Fun Fact: I was in a chritian almost-cult in my teenage years, and they wouldn’t let us read chick tracts because they said he was a whacko… that coming from a fundie church.
What’s coming out of Joyce’s shoes?
Chick Tracts.
Because who wouldn’t want to read tracts that smell like feet?
Chick Tracts should come in 2ply rolls, then they could be useful for more than just /b/ fodder.
that would be great.
No clue what that is. Please don’t judge me for that and explain. But feel free to judge me for the fact that I’m too lazy to look it up on goggle.
They’re just small publications that are illustrated and have Christian messages, including the Gospel.
They don’t have Christian messages.
That’s the author’s intent, but they don’t. They’re really very un-Christ-like.
They’re more like… religiousness-themed hate speech. Against gays, Dungeons and Dragons*, Muslims, other types of Christians… I believe there’s some implications about race, too, from what I’ve seen, but he doesn’t say it outright.
They contradict the Bible a bit and basic facts a whole lot. It’s like.. *really* obvious that his facts are made up and he didn’t do any research if you know anything about the subject.
*I believe, though it’s been a while since I’ve paid any attention to the subject so I may be misremembering, that Chick was one of the first to speak out against DnD, so he was actually being a little original there. His way with facts is also “original”, but that’s different.
Fair enough, I was giving a general idea of what they were, that’s all.
here below is an example of a Chick Tract, ENJOY.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
Wow I’m not even a scientist and I could demolish that punk o.o “isn’t losing something the opposite of evolution?” HAH! Not unless you’re a Pokémon!
Weird how I have a degree in chemistry and have never heard of gluons before. Also, do people really take these seriously? I mean they’re all just so… wow.
Gluons are the particles mediate the strong nuclear force, under some older particle theories. Not sure if they are still around in current models. Can’t blame Chick for being behind on current particle physics.
No, but you can blame him for dismissing particle physics as a whole in favor of “Jesus is holding atoms together.”
That seems like a whole lotta work when Jesus could just, like, invent gluons or something.
People not only take these seriously, they actually think they’re useful tools for evangelism. Just hand people – grown people, mind you, not small children – a little comic book, and you can change their deepest convictions, because the truth of (Jack’s brand of fundamentalist) Christianity is so obvious, the only reason people could possibly not believe in it is because they haven’t heard about it. Or they’re being stubborn, in which case they need a few details about Hell.
I exaggerate not even a little.
Good lord, are those real?
Does Pope Benedict XVI look like Emperor Palpatine?
Great, it’s the reincarnation of Goebbels.
Wow. Just…wow. What does Jack Chick smoke? O.O
…and where can you get some of what he was smoking. 😀
Why would you want it? Looks like pretty bad trips to me.
What ever it is, I think he needs to worship the true lord
http://cissie-king.livejournal.com/13838.html
Darkseid Is!
Thought it was React 5 gum.
Who puts gum in a shoe?
Private dicks, at least they did in the old days, hence the term gumshoe.
You’re pulling my leg, right?
Nope, P.Is used to wear shoes with gum rubber soles so they could sneak around without making any noise.
Gum used to be rubber, like from trees.
All these years I thought “gumshoe” meant an amateur detective because they weren’t observant and would step on gum, getting it on their shoes. DAMN YOU CHILDREN’S TELEVISION!
I finally understand Dick Gumshoe’s name…I was trying so hard to find the pun in it but I couldn’t until just now 0_0
Stuff like Luke Atmy and Will Powers were easy but Gumshoe is a bit harder to know, haha.
I only just got Atmy’s pun. I feel ashamed of myself.
Okay, this is progressing pretty civilly.
And adorably I might add.
It’s a pretty surreal definition of civil, but I think it does technically fit the bill. I mean, she is willing to leave behind her Chick Tracts.
Adorable too. No question.
Not having Chick tracts is a basic requirement of civility, but it’s an incredibly low standard by itself.
Um.
[on the Biology thing]
EvilEvolution!Eviloution!
Natural Selection
The funny thing is I don’t remember my Biology texts mentioning either evolution or natural selection. Guess I didn’t pay attention? =p
Is there anyone who actually takes Chick Tracts seriously? I thought they existed solely to be made fun of. I’m not even certain Jack Chick takes them seriously.
There are a couple that are pretty decent, as far as tracts go. Most of those are older ones. It’s jusdt that he went so far off the rails so early that the vast majority of his tracts are weeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiird.
Finding them is hard, but there are some people who do take them seriously. Generally, you find them standing on street corners yelling at the top of their lungs about one gospel or the other.
Lots of them seem like normal, polite folks… who leave them with restaurant tips.
STEALTH CHICK TRACT
Those people actually do that to see if anyone is willing to risk touching the tract ro get the money :P.
Oh god, I hate that. It’s worse than the fake 20 that says “disappointed? God never disappoints!”
Okay, that’s nice, but YOU just disappointed me big time, assface.
no, no. ridureyu said they leave them WITH money. that means you get money and a tiny book of funnies. that sounds like a great tip!
That has happened to me at least twice, maybe thrice, I always take them home haha, me and my mum love to read them and laugh at the insanity. I recently decided that if I see any more at work I’m going to save them, just like I used to save the fake million dollar bills (there were a lot more of those than I thought at first).
I want to collect them all…but that may be my mild OCD that I may of may not have…the same one that makes me keep typing even when I’ve said all I want to…oh wait…BYE!!!
Even I don’t take Chick seriously and I worked in a Christian bookshop for a year!
I used to keep them out purely to be laughed at. My mum used to make me read them, she took them seriously for a few weeks.
My parents raised me on Chick Tracts. I think they still have all of them in a box somewhere….
All I know is that someone posted them on a bulletin board at my school. Without any smilie faces or “jk” signs nearby. If it was a joke, it didn’t work out so well, because I recycled them about ten minutes after they were put up.
Oh man. I was hoping to see Joyce having another hiccup fit. Oh well.
I absolutely hate those things. They promote religion by putting fear into the character rather than placing faith…
I think you mean FAAAAAAAITH!
Yeah, that’s what makes them so funny, actually. The best one, I reckon, features a Muslim man who doesn’t know who Jesus is!
But they also pass the Bechdel Test. 😛
Do they really? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure the female characters can’t go more than a couple of panels without talking about Jesus.
Not always, they also talk about how all these Godless peoples are going to HELL.
To quote SMBC: there is no torture so horrible that a human won’t eventually fetichize it. :p
SMBC I don’t believe in Hell
Does Jesus count as a man?
Yes and No.
yes will a good number of Christian hate them too. We feel it gives us a bad rap.
Also that they’re evil.
I don’t dislike them just because they reflect poorly on myself.
Although actually, I’ve been a target for at least three of them.
They are hilarious, though. Only terrifying in that people think like this and believe them to be legitimate tools. People *buy* these. For *money*.
I think Joyce will turn out okay after all. Was worried about her for a second there.
That… wasn’t funny, really. Totally in character for both of them though.
Time for 100 or so comments discussing Chick tracts, I guess.
Not even a little chuckle for the fact that her SHOES are literally stuffed with religious material?
you have made joyce into my second least favorite type of stereotypical christian Willis
She is still my fav fundie.
A halo and mind-control eyes? It disturbs me to find that I find that avatar kinda hot.
I like to think that I captured the essense of Joyce.
Now I’m curious what the #1 is.
I think it funny and sad….
I met Jack Chick once. Believe it or not, he was an incredibly sweet, granfatherly, nice-as-a-teddy-bear man. Totally different than I had expected.
Liar! You lie! your soul is as black as your gravatar, liar!
My soul is black, but I ain’t lying. One friend of mine is an evangelist (and a really nice guy) who knows Jack Chick, so that’s how I met him.
I’ve met both Jack Chick and Gary Gygax, and I think that’s kinda rare:-P
At the same time?
Jack Chick and Gary Gygax? I would like to see that battle.
Totally different occasions!
Aw. You couldn’t let the epic thought progress go on?
And for anyone who doesn’t grasp why fundamentalist cartoonist Jack Chick and D&D co-creator Gary Gygax make a particularly striking combination, please see Dark Dungeons:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!
Jesus saves. The rest of you take full damage.
Puntastic!
There’s gotta be some kind of tactless joke about how allah cannot be seen by mortal eyes and the phrase “sneak attack” somewhere…
Probably something Mike would say at the game table. He’s a jerk like that.
You know, that would depend on who’s at the table. Some groups might find that hilarious.
Makes me wonder what DnD class the prophet Mohammed would need to be to be able to bring an entire moutain to him.
You know, I’m surprised, but not really that much. Most people are nice when you meet them face-to-face. It’s human nature to try and get along with the people around you, one way or another. It’s just easier.
That said, to quote “Into the Woods”, nice is different than good.
so true…
You’ve obviously never met my ex-wife’s father.
I said “most”.
Fundies are nice to you when they first meet you because they want to be this wonderful “light on a hill” and convert you through their wonderfulness.
The Devil can recite scripture backwards and forwards in every language without bursting into flames.
There’s a difference between reciting scripture and actually being nice, though.
Just because your nice in public does not me you are nice in private.
You got me with that one.
I know that all too well.
I thought the only real problem the hardcore Christians had with science was the whole evolution thing. Normal biology seems to be unassailable fact presently.
Evolution is normal biology dude.
To you, maybe
Evolution is the end result of genetics+time. It’s basic. And attempting to understand biology while dismissing evolution is doomed to failure, as our taxonomic system is based on all species being related. Beyond that, evolution is a huge factor in the current war against bacteria, as bacteria is constantly evolving immunities to our treatments.
There is no biology without evolution.
*science five*
Gatchaman?
Science ninjas FTW!
Yeah… I live in the wrong state to mention evolution or modern science:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/122757979.html
While I agree that the child should have been given medical care, I also believe (from what I read) that some of the state’s actions were Unconstitutional.
I say they should be hanged.
There is if you use Natural Selection instead.
What exactly do you imagine the term “Natural Selection” means?
From what I recall from school all those decades ago, Natural Selection is the process where certain traits that prevent an organism from been able to survive long enough to mate successful and produce viable offspring are eliminated from the gene pool.
It’s also the process through which any new traits gained by mutations that prove to be valuable are preserved and passed on through the ages.
Natural selection is part of Evolution rather than a different thing altogether. In fact, natural selection is what makes Darwin’s theory of evolution different from other, outdated models like Lamarck’s (which purported that creatures simply mutated specifically to adapt to an environment – i.e. a giraffe would simply grow a larger neck if it encountered taller trees, then pass on longer neck genes afterwards. It didn’t make much sense).
Natural selection as a mechanism for evolution is what allowed Darwin’s hypothesis to become a scientific theory – i.e. the reason it’s considered a proven fact. Sadly people think theory is synonymous with hypothesis (i.e. it means “a really good guess”), and thus we have this whole kerfluffle.
You’re my hero of the day, sir.
“To you, maybe”
Dude, it’s in the biology textbook. Joyce disagrees with that. She doesn’t want it being brought up. What is there to argue here?
Evolution?
Yes?
I mean, I haven’t taken Biology since ninth grade but it was in the book then. It can be gathered through the context of the strip that at the very least Joyce believes it to be in Dorothy’s biology textbook.
Joyce is asking Dorothy not to bring the book with evolution in it to the dinner. Anything else about whether it’s integral to the science or not is kind of beside the point.
It is, but from my biology textbooks (of which I have quite a bit) it’s mostly sidelined in favor of CURRENT biology. As in, what goes on in the normal day to day bodily workings of every day organisms.
A large part of what goes on in the normal day to day bodily workings of every day organisms and ecosystems can be explained only in relation to evolutionary concepts. You can’t skip a thorough explanation of evolution in any complete biology curriculum.
Oh, okay, that makes your statement a bit less weird to me then. Modern biology courses do tend to sideline the more interesting bigger picture stuff in favor of cell mitosis and the like, at least at the high school level. I find that kind of frustrating, but I suppose people think it’s more applicable (and definitely less controversial – case in point, the long list of comments this exchange caused).
Anyway, this comics is good and fun for all! Woo, back on topic!
Well, some YECs (Young Earth Creationists) are going after geology and maybe physics (radiodating) as well. And yeah, a *good* biology book will talk a lot about evolution and natural selection. OTOH, Creationists can assimilate and pass on a lot of biological facts while calling them evidence of god’s design rather than evolved. Joyce may figure that Dorothy’s hypothetical biology textbook would be pretty pro-evolution.
Actually, and this is based on my demographic, a lot of Christians cannot accept the idea of evolution because they feel that would mean denying God.
Personally, I am Christian, but I dig the idea that God created the first organisms and let evolution happen. But I’m in the minority.
You are most certainly not in the minority.
Hard to say, given how loud the crazed fundie types are. She’s not alone (as you prove) but she may not be in the majority.
How does how loud the fundies are have anything to do with the majority? Do you also believe that most football fans go to games shirtless in body paint? Do you believe most Star Trek fans learn to speak Klingon and own a Bat’leth? Not that there is anything wrong with either example, but if you are basing your perceptions of the majority of a group on the actions of its loudest members, you are in for a rude awakening.
Personally, I never met a single person at either of the Catholic schools I went to as a kid who DIDN’T believe in evolution.
Addendum to my above statement: I never met a single STUDENT who didn’t believe in evolution. The nuns and priests were kind of required to believe in creationism, I suppose. Oddly, the nun who taught science actually taught evolution and didn’t mention creationism in class in any way (that was for religion class)… I’m curious how she made that jive with the higher ups, now that I think about it…
Actually, my point was they are loud enough that they tend to scew polls in weird ways due to over representation in most polls due to a level of volunteering being required (as an example, if not accurate: 1 of ten average christians will answer a poll, 5 of ten fundies will). Also, your catholic upbringing is relatively low on the threat index when it comes to creationism vs evolution, as they have been comparatively moderate in their reaction to the idea, whereis american protestant groups tend to get a little more “funny”.
The issue with students is that people often become more religious as they get older. I’ve only met a handful of kids/teens who were very religious, but I think there’s a sort of madness that comes with facing and accepting adulthood that results in lunacy of different kinds and flavours, and bible beating is one of those many possibilities.
On the other hand, it depends on how much you assume of someone just because you get on with them well enough. I like my mum and I’d like to say she believes in evolution, but looking back on it she’s never talked much about her personal beliefs because above all she’s always wanted my siblings and myself to do what we feel is right without her pushing us. That is what makes a good person of any belief system to me – accepting others’ rights to believe what they wish even if it conflicts with one’s own.
It is judgemental to say that most christians don’t believe in evolution, however as it’s still a hotly contested topic, apparently there are enough people with enough of a voice to make it still extremely contested regardless of the fact that genetics proves it pretty unequivocally.
As far as people becoming more religious when they get older, maybe I’m just weird, but I’ve been the opposite. When I was a kid and even in my early twenties, I just kind of went along with being Christian because that’s what my family was and I didn’t give it much thought beyond that. Now that I’m older, I’ve thought more about what I believe, and I’m somewhere between agnostic and deist. And my husband hasn’t gone quite that far, but he’s gone from being fairly fundamentalist to believing in evolution and not believing in unsolicited evangelism.
Yeah I’m with Michael on this one I’ve never met any Catholic (from my upbringing) that went against creationism. But there are so many sects of Christianity that skew the Bible and use it for their own “holy agenda” against whatever they feel is deemed inappropriate.
I think most major biology textbooks would probably have something about evolution, though, unless they were about some restricted topic. It is a pretty big deal in biology.
Also given that the reveal of Dorothy’s nonbelief sent her into a hiccupping fit, Joyce we can assume Joyce has never met an atheist before. She probably has some
hilariousmisconceptions about what atheism actually is.For all we know she could think atheists all worship Charles Darwin. Nah, probably not. That might be too weird and strawman-y.
“Too weird and strawman-y”?
She carries Chick tracts! She’s apparently all about the weird and strawman-y.
biology text books don’t have a chapter on human souls.
“NO, NOT BLACK LEAF! NO, NO! I’M GOING TO DIE!”
Seriously, reading Chick tracts are a hilarious way to spend an evening, if you can tolerate the happily illustrated hate and intolerance for any faith or way of life that varies in even the slightest way from theirs. And they’re so conveniently available online…http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
Dakhran, get out of here! YOU’RE DEAD! You don’t exist any more!
alright, i’m going to let that one slide, but if dakhran ever makes a literal call for help i want you to answer.
Am I missing something? Did Dakhran piss everyone off or something?
Argh oh Gods I’m Tony. Damnit, I liked being Dorothy.
No, it’s from one of the Chick tracts. The one about DnD.
Here‘s an article about it.
And here‘s the thing itself.
Ah Sod it, read it before, can’t believe I didn’t remember it. Cheers for the link though.
In retrospect, the joke works two ways. One is as the reference to the tract, the other because Dakhran’s avatar is undead.
Oh god, I hate these things. It’s like hate, in a way we can show kiddies.
I bet Joyce cheats and uses the Android app.
WTF with all these people not knowing from Chick tracts? How do you not know from Chick tracts? Hell, dude just did a sequel to Why No Revival?, which implies that folks would grasp the freakin’ continuity!
These kids with their Going Wild and their Donkey Ollie and their iShine Knect. They don’t know the classics anymore.
And now I’m all worried that Joyce watches the Davey and Goliath/iShine Knect/Lads TV triple bill on TBN every Saturday.
Nothing wrong with the first and third, but man, those songs.
I was about to say what’s wrong with Davey and Goliath.
How do you know that there’s continuity between any of the Chick Tracts?
Davey and Goliath are broadcasted on TBN, one of Satan’s networks, that’s what’s wrong.
I’m suddenly chuckling at the notion of one day finding that Joyce is into Moral Oral, but because of her background and personality type completely misses every joke at the expense of Christianity. Blatantly crazy shit they’re saying sounding perfectly sane to her.
Just picturing her sitting down and enjoying what she considers to be really wholesome programming.
she may like it for those reasons, but is she old enough to handle the adult situations in moral orel?
This one is.
How can Joyce read Chick?
They terrible art! The terrible dialogue!
Considering the fact that she likes Twilight we already have evidence of questionable tastes.
Somehow I don’t believe Jack Chick will ever approve of Twilight.
Joyce should read this:
Cthulhu Chick Tract
I don’t know why, but Lovecraftian humour always cheers me up.
The art isn’t good, because the author had a stroke.
I don’t think so. Chick’s art has always been pretty crappy. He had his stroke in 1996, and you can see his earlier art was pretty bad too. (For example “Cleo from 1995. Is that bearded mutt with ridiculous eyelashes supposed to be cute?)
If you’re thinking about the well drawn Chick tract art, that was all done by Fred Carter, though Chick never put Carter’s name on any of the tracts.
While I agree that it is not pretty art, for most part it is drawn well enough.
The style Willis drawsis a lot simpler than Chick’s but is far more pleasing to the eye.
I would like Willis to do a strip or dA in the Jack Chick art style at least once just to see how his characters would look in that style.
If this goes well, this is something that should happen much more often than it does.
That being Christians (or anyone religious for that matter) and Atheists getting along and actually talking for the simple reason that being nice is a nice thing to do. :3
That happens like all the time.
Oooh Joyce. : ( Poor poor Joyce. Chick Tracks? Man even as a Christian I find those things to be the most laughably stupid things ever produced.
I’d think Christians should think that at least as much as anyone else. Possibly more.
I thought Chick Tracts were larger, but I’ve never seen them in real life.
I’d love to have a signed copy of Dark Dungeons.
…wait, do I have a Joyce gravatar?
The image is about the right scale–they’re about 2″x4″ or so.
It’s… simply amazing how tremendously irritating Joyce is in this universe.
Reminds me that this is pretty much how she used to be. Chilling.
I never realised that Chick Tracts were international until I was handed one last year.
I kinda regret my immediate reaction, which was to hand it back to the guy and say “I don’t want this because I know where it came from”. It would have made an interesting souvenir.
How did the guy react?
I have had the misfortune of being handed a few of them, they do look very much like that, and yes! I know many not crazy christians, yet christians who not only believe those, but use them to attempt to convert others do exist! I worked with one – everyone thought he was decent enough until some sign came up that your beliefs didn’t quite mesh with his. He rode a motorcycle and had tattoos, though, so I think at one point he was actually a Totally Rad Atheist, but at that point he admitted he was shamed by his younger days.
Going to a secular college will be good for Joyce. Hopefully she’ll learn that being a Christian and being a well-balanced, nonjudgmental person with friends from all walks of life aren’t mutually exclusive.
Funny how many Christians forget that Jesus sat down with cheats and whores, and got berated by the fundies of his time for doing so.
He sat down TO CONVERT THEM. Exactly what Joyce was trying to do. “Any man can turn from sin” and all that jazz.
I wrote something on the-comic-that-shall-not-be-named’s comments about DoA having comparatively slow character development, but it looks like Joyce will be getting some soon.
Points to Dorothy for going along anyway.
It’s true that what we see in the Bible is Jesus working with sinners, trying (and always succeeding, of course) to get them to follow his path and amend their lives – that’s what the Bible is for. However, Jesus was wise enough to know that you don’t accomplish that by handing out little comics and telling people how superior your way is while trying to stay completely sheltered and pure yourself. He went out among the people and met them on their own terms, using his magic to help them, denouncing corrupt authorities and generally treating them with a kindness that wasn’t just unusual for the time, it made him look bad to “respectable” people.
In fact, it’s clear that at least some of these people are his friends, which implies that he spent time with them doing things other than preaching – enough to get him called “a glutton and a wine-bibber” by the “respectable people” at least.
Tht just proves that you can’t take Bible literally.
Vindlestitch!
Curse my dysgraphia. 🙁
Ya know, despite Joyce demonstrating that she’s the kind of fundie who goes for YEC and Chick Tracts…This strip actually makes me more optimistic for her character. Try to be nice to the “weird godless one” because she’s nice too? Agreeing to drop conversion attempts? That’s already a pretty good start. If you have basic decency, beliefs are (more often than not) secondary.
For some people, they’re related.
Exactly! How can you have basic decency if you are willing to let a person continue sinning, corrupting their eternal soul, and treating their body like an amusement park at 3pm while leaving the door unlocked?
YOUR beliefs. I meant YOUR beliefs are secondary to whether or not you have basic decency. (That’s the general you, not “you” you.) In most cases, good people will be nice, and dicks will act like dicks, no matter their actual beliefs.
And “LET a person continue sinning”? You’re not that person. You can’t make their decisions for them. You can be their friends, stay by their side (which does not always mean supporting their actions), show them love. You can try to explain to them why you think something is not in their best interest (though you won’t go far unless you’re also willing to listen). But you can’t make them non-sinners against their will (for whatever definition of “sinner” you’re using).
Ah, but wouldn’t it be a dick move not to make sure someone was “saved” by any means necessary?
(I feel like I should tell you I am playing devil’s advocate, but I’m not sure that’s what I’m really doing)
I have never been handed a Chick Tract. I never wish to see one either. Most of the Christians around here are pretty laid back though.
A lady coming out of a fortune-telling-type shop asked me out of nowhere if I wanted something to read, but I said no. I had thought she and her companion didn’t seem to be the types to be coming from there, so my first thought was Chick tracts and that they’d gone in to harass the owners and/or clients. Since I turned her down and walked away, I’m not entirely sure, of course.
Closest I’ve ever come to seeing one in real life.
My ex-boyfriend did get harassed by a few fundamentalists standing around the lobby in my dorm once. They were bothering people and passing out things (not Chick tracts, though), but most just ignored them. He decided to engage one of ’em.
“Jesus says that you’re guilty of adultery if you’ve ever lusted after a woman in your heart!” he said, “And haven’t you done so?”
“What?” says my very confused ex (Two notes: I am male, and we entered the building holding hands), “No.”
“Aw, come on. Really? Never?”
“Lusted after women? No, no I haven’t.”
He didn’t believe it.
It.. really wasn’t where I expected the conversation to go.
I would have paid good money to see that face off. Seriously, it would have been comedy gold.
Actually, it was pretty anticlimactic.
We all thought we knew where it was going,and then… it didn’t go.
…Please leave me to my delusions of sitcom-level antics.
What? No Joyce, keep those, they’re comedy GOLD!
My only question is why was she keeping them in her shoe?
joyce’s eyes look super weird in the last panel.
Somebody at my old job used to leave Chick Tracts on people’s desks, back before you could get fired for such things. Definitely hate-filled reading material….
The stealth joke here is that she’s asking for her biology textbook, specifically. Not, you know, history, or astronomy, or philosophy or anything else. Evolution debate call-out?
Religion in comics tires me incredibly, although probably not as much as it would to actually live in the US and live through it.
Telling the truth, there’s a lot less of this kind of thing than you’d think. I live in what’s derisively termed ‘flyover country’ AND went to a Southern Baptist church and I’ve never been handed one of these. The only person who actually tries converting me is the nice Mormon lady I see once every couple of weeks.
Eh, depends on where you are, I guess. I’ve had plenty of people try to convert me, and I’ve even been handed a couple of these. Personally, I just take them and immediately throw them away. The only ones that really bother me are the ones who go door-to-door, because I always feel a little bad about sending them away. I’m more okay with the ones that approach me in public, because I’ve found that I can make them go away pretty fast by just acting kind of distracted and saying “yes” to everything they say. Don’t elaborate or argue, and they’ll generally get bored and wander off after maybe half a dozen yesses.
Most fundy-ish Christians around here don’t realize that their religion is contradicted by stuff in virtually *every* field of serious scientific study – they’re only really aware of the evolution issue.
Leaving aside her crazy Chick tract converting ways, IIRC biology is a requirement for graduation from most four-year colleges/universities… I wonder what’ll happen if/when Joyce actually has to take bio… 😛
Depends on the college and your major. And if you’re not a science major yourself, I think you usually have a fair degree of flexibility in terms of how you choose to fill that. (My school was on the much looser end in terms of distribution requirements, though.)
For BA-track students at my school, there was just a “science” requirement, which I was able to fill with psychology.
Does Joyce even have an academic plan beyond earning her MRS?
In the three colleges/unis I’ve been to, psychology was a humanities (lumped in with history, etc.) not a science. ^O__o^;; … which, on an unrelated note, has me wondering why the psych department wasn’t up in arms about the whole “is psychology a real science or not” thing… 😛
It just depends on where you go to school.
In Texas, the core curriculum requires you to take two semesters of lower level science classes for any two or four year degree. More, of course, if you are a science major(or related fields, like a medical degree of some kind).
As an English major, I am taking Environmental Science I and II. Other options were Astronomy, Geology, and Bio I and II. If I wanted to take more, I suppose I could, but I’ve never been particularly interested in science.
It works that way for most other subjects, too. I’ll never take another math class, now that I have passed College Algebra.
And I know math and science majors who won’t ever set foot in another writing/english class, now that they’ve met their 2 semester Freshman Comp. requirement.
One man’s Chick tract is another man’s girly magazine.
If you’re lucky, you think I’m kidding. If you’re not, I apologize for where those curious internet searches lead you.
Oh, Joyce, no….
Though I do have to say that for this version of Joyce it doesn’t feel like too much of a stretch. Joyce 1.0 (Roomie/Walky) doesn’t seem to be the type to have any of the tracts, not even in her super religious times.
Chick Tracks?! SERIOUSLY?!
Even as a Christian I find those horribly offensive and a waste of space.
Is chick tracts some midwest thing? never heard of them
No, I’ve come across those things in campuses from B.C. to Newfoundland.
Living in the Northeast, I’d never heard of them until a couple of years ago when I was reading about DnD 4th edition on the internet.
I’m surprised Joyce has that many tracts in her shoe. Do tracts multiply like math books?
Wow, I never thought of Joyce as a Chick Tract reader before. Kinda hard for me to see the character doing that. I can sorta see it from a throwaway “Gosh, ain’t her beliefs wacky?” joke kind of way, but thinking about it beyond that just feels weird.
Then again, maybe that’s just me imprinting characterization from Roomies! onto her in this universe.
Yeah, I have no trouble seeing Joyce with a couple of “Four Spiritual Laws” pamphlets in her purse, but Chick Tracts were not exactly expected. Still, “Chick Tracts” is funnier than just “tracts.”
One of Joyce’s key character traits is her naivete. She often doesn’t realize that some of the things she says are offensive, or even why they might be offensive to the people she is directing them toward. We don’t know what her opinions about the Tracts themselves are. She may find them hyperbolic and possibly a little mean at times.
And keep in mind, to her, Dorothy is already a Worst Case Scenario: an atheist. So perhaps she feels the “big guns” are warranted.
Good points. I did actually think to myself, “Okay, so she’s probably at least somewhat discriminating about which ones she carries around, right? She’s gotta realize how offensive and poorly-argued at least some of these are!” And the mental image of Joyce sitting on the floor in her room sorting through tracts brings a smile to my face.
I received one of those once where the first sentence was “You could be dead in five minutes.” I decided to read some of it. It was hilariously offensive.
At first I didn’t realize that was a shoe in the last panel. It looked like a brown pair of panties…
But that would be a different type fo “chick tracks” I suppose.
I can’t believe I read all of the comments on this one. I think this is the first time I’ve seen a web comic comment section get so serious about religion. It’s kind of refreshing from all of the l33t noob talk when someone gets offended.
Seriously, wouldn’t having THAT many tracts in her shoes hurt like crazy?
She’s got HUGE tracts…of land.
LOL 😀
Chick Tract readers are like spies in TF2. You never know who one is until they hit you with the revelation…or a backstab.
Honestly, thinking back on a few strips I think I can see it. Still, something a little less ‘BURN!” would be more her style if she knew about them. It could be that her family has been giving them to her, and she might not have any other tracts to give.
Bonus Points: Point out the homosexual subtext in some of his tracts, and how the muscular, obviously stereotyped gay men are hyper-detailed yet women are basically rush-drawn. Drives readers into fits.
The Jack Chick Parody Archive:
http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/
Wow, I had never heard of these Chick Tracts before. =/
And I’m not sure why it took me so long to figure out that was a *shoe* Joyce was holding. >_>
What did you think she was holding?
I have to admit I have never been able to read through a whole Chick Tract. I usually actually feel physically ill by the end. As a Pagan I am used to misrepresentations of my religion and to finding the same for other religions but the sheer amount of ignorance with slapped on “facts” in the tracts is quite disturbing.
Who make’s Joyce’s shoes? Mary Poppins?
I’m hardly surprised that Joyce had intended to try and convert Dorothy. I’m actually more surprised she hasn’t tried doing it to more people yet. And its amazing how she can be both cute and horribly judgmental at the same time (“Godless ways”? Really Joyce?)
But WHY does the fact Dorothy being atheist “scare the poop” out of her? I mean, I get that she was raised to believe in god and Jesus, but not believing in Christianity is hardly to be afraid of. Like she herself said, “Dorothy is nice” and she’s never once tried to dissuade Joyce from believing in God. I can understand Joyce being confused by the idea that someone doesn’t want to believe in religion, but why be afraid?
And meanwhile… Is Joyce afraid that Dorothy will try and convert her with the power of SCIENCE?!
Umm… Joyce DOES know that she’ll have to study science while in college right? I mean, all the colleges I’m familiar with require biology or a similar science related subject on a student’s transcripts, don’t they?
Well she was homeschooled and probably not exposed to different religions, philosophies, ideas and human rights.
“Godless ways” isn’t judgmental. It’s just accurate. Pretty much the textbook definition of atheist. To call her ways anything to the contrary of Godless would just be wrong.
And there’s a whole slew of reasons why it would scare her. The one I feel like listing right now is that Joyce has always been lead to believe that happiness and peace come from being at one with God. Here’s Dororthy who’s very existence contradicts Joyce’s most fundamental beliefs simply by nature of being a nonbeliever who’s overall happy and has her shit together.
As a side note I’m a college student who hasn’t taken any science credits since ninth grade. Almost set up to transfer to a university now. It’s not really an issue unless you’re in a science program of some sort. Though it occurs to me that I’ve certainly taken courses she wouldn’t have enjoyed. Physical Anthropology would have given her a field day lol. Sociology wouldn’t have been sunshine and rainbows for her either. Not sure how she’d feel about psych or philosophy.
…I can think of maybe a couple courses I’ve taken that she would have been able to cope with. Jesus man. It’s getting pretty crazy now that I’m working through the list. Do we think she would have been able to handle a course on fantasy/sci-fi or comic books? Because I think that might be all I got for her. Even generic essay writing had us covering some articles on various primates and how they relate to us.
Ooh! Arthurian legend would have been right up her alley! Found one!
Again she was homeschooled.
Watch the documentary “Jesus Camp” and you’ll see the kind of enviroment she would have grown up in.
I’ve know a number of people who were home school and Christian. And while they’ve acted confused and at times judgement about people who don’t believe in God, I’ve never actually seen them be afraid.
Not all homeschooled Christians are weird/fundies. I’m homeschooled, and I’m Christian, but my parents aren’t really any religion, so I wasn’t raised like a homeschooled Christian, and if I had been I suspect being gay would be a hell of a lot more awkward. And my BFF, who is homeschooled and Christian, and raised by Christians, is normal enough. The only fundie I know well isn’t homeschooled at all.
So some Christian homeschooled people are messed up but not some/most of them.
I’m sorry, but from personal experience when a religious person has used the phrase “Godless ways”, around me its always been with a judgmental tone behind it. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone call another person “godless” without it meaning something bad. I myself am gay and agnostic, and have had christian zealots call me godless to my face with obvious judgement. I hear or read the word “godless” and expect there to be judgement behind it. Sorry.
But you can’t deny that a part of Joyce is judging Dorothy. After all, she did bring her tapes along with the intent of trying to convert her.
And even if Dorothy’s life contradicts the way Joyce was raised, that still doesn’t explain her fear. Her religion taught her to try and lead people towards Christianity (as demonstrated here). That probably implies they taught her about Atheists not being evil, but just needing “help to find the ‘right’ path”. I mean, that’s what I was taught in Catholic School. I mean, unless her church actually tried to teach her that Athiests are evil and dangerous, I don’t understand how she can be so scared that she would hiccup.
As for college, my experience was slightly different than you. I went to a state college for undergrad and for me Intro to Biology was a required course, unless you tested out of it. You also had to take 2 additional science courses like Sociology, Chemistry or a higher level of biology.
And considering Joyce’s heavy relgious feelings, unless the comics were those crappy religious comics, I don’t think she could handle many main stream books very well. I can’t imagine you being able to handle the idea that all the Super-heroes dying and coming back from the dead, and not be Jesus. Add to that, some comics kinda contradict the ideas of the Christian God’s existance, such as Thor and Asgard, Jean Grey/Phoenix Force, Wonder Woman and the Greek Gods, The White Lantern Entity being the source of creation, etc…
Legitimate in terms of experience.
I think Joyce just carries Chick Tracts with her at all times. Just like how you’ll never find me without a videogame or two on my person.
I didn’t say Dorothy contradicted how Joyce was raise. I said Dorothy contradicts Joyce’s most fundamental beliefs. To Joyce it would be no different than if you met a man in perfect health who does not need to breath. Up until this moment Joyce would have believed Dorothy to be an impossibility and the very existence of Dorothy defies everything that Joyce thinks is real.
My mistake, although she was raised with those beliefs playing a major role. Either way though, I understand her being surprised by the idea that people who don’t believe in god exist. So her meeting someone so different would be confusing and a bit of a surprise. But actually saying she fears that person is the part I don’t understand. I mean, if I met a men who did not need to breath, I wouldn’t be afraid of him, particularly if he poses no threat to me. I’d be confused, and I’d certainly want to understand how they live like that, but I don’t see fear playing into it.
I dunno… I guess I just expected Joyce to do to Dorothy what she did to Joe, and question him excessively about her beliefs and why they differ her own.
Eh, personally I gotta say that when faced with an impossibility that completely falsifies everything that is supposed to be real, fear is a pretty natural reaction. The sight of an entity who’s very existence deconstructs reality itself can be scary. Doesn’t mean that it’s the only reaction someone can experience, but it’s certainly one reaction.
The implications are far reaching. If God is not the only source of happiness and peace then that changes everything. It rewrites her absolute and self evident truths to questionable doctrines. Recolors her parents from wise and benevolent figures to naive and potentially cracked people who perhaps haven’t left Joyce as prepared for the world as they could have. Reillustrates her world from one where a benevolent force micromanages everything and decides who’s happy and who’s sad to one where people are capable of taking their own fates and happiness into their own hands. Reshades her life spent on the one true path to a life spent unquestioningly on one of multiple paths, and begs the question of where she is going. Questions in a world where there were none before.
Dorothy is not a direct threat as such. Not a threat to Joyce. Certainly a threat to everything Joyce has ever valued. Her continuing to engage in pleasantries with Dorothy shows strength of character in the decision to not turn a blind eye to this knowledge regardless of how frightening or unpleasant it may be. Many in her position would retreat into their bubble rather than proceed forward with the faith that her truths can withstand this.
Joe was just a hedonistic Jew in her eyes.The pleasures of the devil meant to draw God’s followers away from happiness. By their nature they provide a temporary sense of joy and wellbeing. A euphoria of sorts. Else they wouldn’t be alluring. Joyce has faith that Joe’s life will catch up with him and he’ll find himself in a hollow and miserable existence without the lord. Even in the Chick Tracts, witchcraft, DnD, Islam etc are fun at first. They take a dark turn later.
Dorothy is something else entirely. Her happiness is not a temporary thing wrought of the devil. There is no sin to explain this, nor is her happiness the euphoria of a decadent lifestyle. She’s just happy, completely free of divine of demonic influence. Independently happy if you will.
Glad they’re getting along. I hope Joyce learns that every Atheist isn’t an Antitheist
i recreated ‘this was your wife’ to get back at that thing for giving me nightmares as a little kid
I’ll venture that Chick tracts have greatly helped encourage the propagation of atheism. They’re horrible.
I confess I don’t know (perhaps blissfully) what Chick Tracts are, but I do find it ironic how even Joyce clearly equates atheism with knowledge, seeing as she’s asking Dorothy to leave behind an educational tool.
What’s so horrible about biology?
because you know, evolution
and the more fundamentalist branches of christianity think thats evil
so they deny biology science, and geology
sucks too because i really like those fields of science
…yeah, why _is_ she carrying around Chick Tracts? Even at this point in her characterization, it’s kinda hard to believe that she’d have any on her at all, given how well she seems to know the Bible and how they contradict both it and what she’s seen of the world (well, Indiana) by now.
oh my god chick tracts
the craziest conspiracy stuff christianity ever brought to the table, also weirdly racist for no reason sometimes
in it he literally equates everything to the devil
i mean i was pretty damn christian but even the most fundamentalist of my acquaintances could see how crazy some of the chick tracts were
i guess they just use the safer ones to try and convert? not the racist crazy ones XD or maybe they do? joyce didnt seem like the super crazy kind but you never know……
my bus driver thought the president was the antichrist, and he seemed normal enough until then