It may be easier/nicer, doesn’t make it righter. To me the most essential part of humanity is its quest for knowledge, and personally beliefs based on anecdotes and legend have no place to be held as certainty.
I think the issue is that Joyce obviously assumed Sierra was catholic because she’s b…
I don’t know if I should say, actually. It could be really offensive to some people, but when you think about it it isn’t all that harsh an assumption.
Joyce thinks Sierra could have been catholic because she is bare-midriffed.
I’m from a united Methodist church, myself. My pastor road a harly Davidson up through the center aisle to the front of the sanctuary to start service once
Bishops on up wear funny hats when in full gear for a service, at least in Catholic and Episcopal churches.
I think in Eastern Orthodox churches they wear funny hats too.
It is mostly Catholics are not always popular with other Christian groups. Jack Chick frequently sent out tracts stating that Catholics were stealing people’s souls with communion wafers, were behind many wars and the holocaust, started a cult holding Mary higher than Jesus, had a database on every non-Catholic Christian, and created Islam in order to subvert Christian influence in the middle east. The child molestation scandals, a man buying his way into being the pope in ancient times, and the fact that the church used to accept bribes for “repentance” has not helped the Catholic in the eyes of most non-Catholics.
Fundies never cease to amuse me. If there weren’t any of those secularists or atheists they’d be at each others’ throats. First they’d exclude all the non monotheist groups, then the Muslims, then the Jews, Mormons, Catholics, and whatever denomination they think is insufficiently Christian.
When I still played , I often thought of doing a D20 Modern or CoC campaign inspired by that. Could never decide if the main objective should be eldritch horrors or hunting Jack Chick. Maybe Jack Chick as an eldritch horror?
You never had the “pleasure” of Chick Tracts?. The fundies around here keep leaving them. For some reason they got all offended when we started collecting them and trading them like they were baseball cards. Laughing out loud while reading them probably didn’t help either.
And yes, some fundie types are convinced that R.C.s are allied with satan (in my head, I said satan in the Church Lady voice).
I am catholic and didn’t see red. I must of read it wrong. No I think it has to do with the fact that Joyce has shown herself to be mostly anti-everything. Anti-Jewish, Anti-Same Sex, Anti-small lakes. I would have been shocked to hear her say something positive about any religion but hers. Oooh, I wonder if and how she’ll react when she finds out Sal went to Catholic school.
Amishnessism isn’t an Eastern religion? It is pretty far east of me in OR, being that the center of Am-land seems to be PA. Had a girlfriend from Guam for a while. We decided she was Guamish.
Or Heathens. Honestly, when are us followers of the Old Norse gods gonna get some air time?! Comics need more followers of Thor and Odin et alia in them. XD
Geez, even I know that the whole “praying” to the saints and Mary and stuff is just asking that guy you know who has an in with the boss to ask the boss for a favour on your behalf. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us,” what’s confusing about that?
This is the part that always kind of bugged me about some medieal descriptions of the Norse heathens “praying” to and “worshipping” idols, i.e. statues and carvings of their gods. Most Christian churches (couldn’t speak for others) have a cross up at the front, over or behind the altar, which one could argue, looking from the outside, that the congregation is praying to. Are they really worshipping those two bits of wood? No, of course not. It’s a symbol that helps focus minds and energy. Same with the “idols” the Norse we apparently praying to, and same with the Catholic saints, so far as I can understand it.
In the case of the saints, it’s saying to someone the church has officially deemed to be particularly holy, and who has died (and therefore is obviously up there in Heaven where they can sort of talk to God directly, “Hey. I’m having a problem with this. You know about this stuff; you specialized in it when you were alive. Hey, could you talk to God aout it and, like, get him to help me out here?” I really don’t get what is so hard to understand about that. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
But then, I’m not appalled by the concept to begin with, so that probably helps.
Do other sects see the Anglicans as worshipping the Queen, though? Which is weird, because it’s not like the Catholics worship the Pope.
Man, sometimes I think all these different sects just need to get together in a room and go, “Okay, now. Ask whatever you like, try to not be a jerk in your phrasing, and try to not get offended by the questions or the answers. Try and learn about each other a bit.” But in order for that to work one would have to admit that it wasn’t entirely My-sect-is-right-and-all-others-are-wrong, and that seems to be difficult for a lot of people. :-/ Learning about others firsthand would probably help a lot of things, though.
This. I used to live across the street from a church with FANTASTIC music. I’d pass by on Sundays on my way to brunch and there would be organ, bass, drums, guitar and some pretty serious vocal harmonies going. The whole block was filled with the sounds of these folks rocking out. If I were to go to any church ever, it would be that one.
I think what she means, subconsciously that is, by “correct beliefs” are ones that won’t cause her to consider there might be something misguided about the level of both parental and social control, especially post high school graduation, she was raised around and still clings to.
Speaking of Joyce’s family, does DoA Joyce still have like a gazillion brothers?
If so, where are they and what do they do?
Most Non-Denominational churches I know of are Independent Baptist based. But of course that’s because I search them out. I think places like Solid Rock Church in Mason, Ohio and the Church for those who don’t like Church in Milford, Ohio are considered non-denominational, though the latter, we don’t even consider that a real church. It’s a feel good church that says nothing bad can happen and God will allow anyone into Heaven as long as you do good works and love others, which is false. They don’t preach the Bible whatsoever.
Solid Rock Church is the one with Big Butter Jesus. Don’t know much about the church though
I dunno man, the bible is so flexible that I can see that being a valid belief system within its parameters. It seems way friendlier than other churches anyway, and one whose parishioners I wouldn’t mind hanging around with. The best Christians I know tend to have beliefs along those lines. The intolerable hypocrites? Well, they don’t.
Well given that two of the Gospels disagree about the birth of jesus, the other two completely ignore this ‘miraculous’ event and all four of them disagree on the specifics of the rebirth ceremony ressurection I’d say that it’s a pretty flexible book.
“…though the latter, we don’t even consider that a real church. It’s a feel good church that says nothing bad can happen and God will allow anyone into Heaven as long as you do good works and love others, which is false.”
This kind of stuff is hilarious. I love it when people pretend to have any answers at all, never mind all of them.
Most Non-Denominational churches I search out and know of are Independent Baptist based. The BAPTIST church has become very legalistic over time, like many catholic churches and possibly Lutheran (though don’t quote me on that one).
Anyways, Independent Baptist/Non-Denominational churches don’t care what you wear, what you look like, what you believe, etc., most teach, KJV, NKJV, NIV, MacAurthur Study Bible NIV, stuff like that. They make sure that what they teach and preach comes straight from the Bible as well as gathering material from other respected Bible scholars (For example someone like Billy Graham, J. Vernon McGee, C.S. Lewis and other well known past preachers).
Unlike strict Baptist churches, they still have rules that the members should go by and if a member that is serving in the church in a position violates that rule, they may undergo church discipline with the correct course of action. Non-Members and unregular church members should be willing to follow the rules, but don’t necessarily have to, but will not be allowed to serve in a function unless things change. Non-Believers are completely excluded though if they are disrupting service too often by their actions they may be asked to leave or listen out in the lobby until they clean up. Other than that, it’s very lenient.
Strictly Baptist churches require that you dress up every Sunday, say that you MUST be there every Sunday, sing a certain type of music, must use a certain version of the Bible, and so on. Our last church that we were at for 14 years, fell into that trap after our original pastor left and we voted in the new one, who should never have gotten a second vote. He practically forced the original members out of the church. 150 church members in 4 years.
Man, growing up I’ve been to Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Non-Denominational, Evangelical Free… and every single last one claimed they only taught stuff “straight from the Bible.”
I don’t think that’s really a distinguishing point of doctrine.
I actually talked about this with a Jesuit once, and asked about the bible and it’s interpretations and how should they be taken.
I remember him saying once that though he believed that the Word of God are Perfect, you had to remember that people reading it, transcribing, interpreting them are not, since as humans we are imperfect.
He said, that someone who claims to have absolute understanding of God’s Word, was like the equivalent of Enlightenment or something.
ヽ（´ー｀）┌
So true. I mean, the book has been around thousands of years and has been re-edited and translated lord knows how many times. I give more credence to sermons with direct biblical support, buuuut that still allows for a great deal of wiggle room.
Ultimately, while I use the bible to guide me, I follow what feel right. This means that when I go to a new place I have to try out some churches to find one that is not ‘weird’ (I am batized Lutheran, but I would rather go to a liberal insert-other-protesant-church-here than a conservative Lutheran church). ‘Weird’ for me generally translates into ‘judgemental’ or ‘full of hate’, anyone recites Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and I am out of there.
Well, there ARE principles by which texts are judged on whether or not they fit into the biblical canon.
It needs to have been around fairly soon after the events occurred (which is why the texts that magically appeared during… I dunno, the 1800s… aren’t part of the canon).
It needs to have been widely distributed during the time period, since if it didn’t go anywhere, it probably was because people who were there found flaws with it.
It needs to apply to the principle of “orthodoxy” and not contradict anything from before (which, admittedly, is where some texts could have been lost, at least logically, but I doubt the Bible’s canon was decided by just one dude picking and choosing what fit with his worldview). And
I think the fourth has to do with the credibility of the author himself, if he was referenced in other texts in a trustworthy way or something.
So yeah, it’s still highly possible that stuff was lost or messed up, but it’s not nearly as likely as people make it out to be. It’s not like “it’s been re-edited and translated a bunch of times” always works either, because scholars DO try to find the oldest copy in accordance with the first principle, and people are getting better with translating, which is why a lot more versions have cropped up relatively recently.
Part of the problem is that it’s impossible to know what was “orthodox” for real, since what has since been established as orthodox is the stuff that wasn’t burned. History is written by the winners, etc.
Even so, half of the books in the Bible that claim to be written by Paul were not, and none of the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
Mind you, there was the whole Niocene Convention, too, when a bunch of leaders of various groups got together to decide once and for all whether or not Jesus actually was the Christ, or just a prophet, and whether or not he actually was the son of God and was resurrected, or was just some guy, and once they decided to go the “Jesus IS the Son of God” route, they got rid of the books that had been written about him that didn’t support that. Hence the Niocene Creed, and hence the gospels of only a handful of apostles making it into the current Bible (King James or not, they may phrase things differently but I don’t believe they actually have different verses in there) despite him having twelve disciples, all of whom wrote gospels, along with a lot of others.
It would probably be extremely enlightening to go digging through the Vatican’s library some day (like I’ll ever have a chance to do that).
I think she’s questioning which translation and which accepted canon. Some people believe in the Gospel of Saint Thomas, but most groups refuse to believe in the book as a good portion has Jesus acting like an angry and evil kid with reality altering powers that he uses at a drop of a hat to kill or harm those who annoy him. Supposedly the story involves Jesus growing up from a bratty kid to a respectable and helpful adult, which does paint a better picture for the nature of humanity.
“We take all our doctrine straight from a copy of Christian Science Weekly that was recited throughout the town in a large-scale game of Telephone and then retranscribed and padded with some of the pastor’s personal opinions. The only true source of God’s divine message”
Oh no you didn’t! Sicily is totally not Italy. It’s Sicily- its own country, really. Half the reason the mafia showed up was because sicilians hated going to the “proper authorities” about legal matters, because the “proper authorities” were either the invading french or the invading italians.
I like to think that Americans stole pizza from the Italians since it is barely known to them but there are dozens of ‘basterdized’ pizza types in the USA (like Chicago deep dish and that California Pizza kitchen stuff). We even eat it without forks and knives “like savages”.
We stole pizza from the Italians like we stole ‘Chinese’ food from the Chinese.
I think non-denominational is a good way for Willis to avoid getting heat from any one faction if they get offended by Joyce or her particular beliefs. That, or it prevents her from seeming like a stereotype of any one Christian faith.
Your comment also works in view of the fact that WMG is also the name of a leading corporation in the management of radioactive waste. http://www.wmginc.com
Incidentally, there are multiple different churches called “Church of God”, so if knowing which one she meant was integral to understanding today’s comic, there’s an issue.
Good god! That’s pretty much magic you’re talking. May as well just head on over to the church of Satan and find yourself a goat to mate with, heathen!
I do as well. I think it would be hilarious for Joyce to meet a LaVeyan Satanist in the comic. Not that I’m B.S.-ing myself and thinking it would be an eye-opening experience for growth for her, I just want to see the look on her face.
To be clear I did not choose to make any specific reference to LaVeyan Satanism, except possible rumors about the LaVey inner circle heard from when I used to live near South Coast Plaza and his ’empire’. Nor to actually disparage magic, having been a practicing wiccan and ovate druid at times in my life.
That was clear to me. And I think most people who know enough that Church of Satan = LaVeyan Satanism also probably know that boinking goats is not part of their practices.
In a nutshell? Many protestant and non-denominational churches think that Catholics are corrupt and wrong, for various reasons. To some churches, being Catholic is synonymous with the word “sinner”.
I know that at my own church the presiding mentality was that most Catholics couldn’t really be called Christians at all, just on account of how many Christmas Christians and the like they have.
Not like we considered them particularly sinful or anything, but we pretty much just lumped them in with the rest of the secular world.
I think that fits with Joyce’s unease regarding Sierra’s attire. Already has seen what she’s wearing, was confused by the fact that she’s going to church, was expecting to hear she’s a practically agnostic individual loosely affiliated with a Christian faith.
As with any religous debate I kind of sit on the side line. I never got the whole “my god is better than your god” thing. Religion is always a matter of choice. Same as what soda is your favorite. Coke, pepsi, orange grape, iced tea. Choose what’s best for you. You don’t have to like what your friend drinks. Doesn’t mean what they drink is wrong or right. Everyone can have a drink and enjoy. Some choose not to drink.
Man, Sierra’s probably proud of ANYTHING she does. It’s nice to have such a cheery character! I think she’ll probably be one of the better-liked ones, from the look of it.
*frown* That’s … a strange joke, if that’s the case. I’m afraid I’d have to give it a 5/10. Shows promise with a weird premise, but needs work on making sense.
I love my UU church. It’s big and
pink and ancient and hosts the
area LGBT prom. I usually attend
the discussion forum before
service where we discuss politics
or religion or history(one regular
attendee is a noted area
historian). Then sometimes we
get so caught up in the
conversation we skip the service
and head right over to the coffee
shop to continue.
Been down a lot of paths myself and U.U. is kind of like tying it all together instead of leaving it behind.
And yes, we had coffee and
bagels at the orientation class,
along with pita chips, veggies,
and a very nice tatziki and 3
hummuses (hummi?).
Because If all religion is evil Why shout you or anyone settle for a lesser evil when you can have the greatest Evil of all, blessed be Cthulhu may devour his chosen last.
I’ve never liked denominations. The Church needs to be as united as possible. Everyone will have separate opinions, but as long as you try your best to live for Christ and put Him first, what else matters? However, the thing is most people don’t put Him first.
that’s the problem with the christian faith in general. the Catholics worship every saint they can think of before even really considering praying to God. methodists don’t believe in the power and grace that Jesus died on the cross for and baptists can’t be quiet long enough to actually realize that just because you aren’t a baptist doesn’t make you a demon. then there are the non denominationals which are basically the Christian’s version of a hipster.
however: catholics are so devout that they wouldn’t really “stray” from the path once they find it, methodists will tell you easily how to live a life aimed towards Christ. and when baptists start praying miracles happen. the non denominational need to get off their high horse long enough to actually teach the truth.
if we could all shut up and get along long enough to actually read the bible we’d really be going somewhere.
I only know enough to tell you how wrong your idea of Methodism is, but if you’re just as wrong about the other denominaions, you know nothing. Grace is one of the most important aspects of any Christian’s faith.
Catholics only pray to the saints, we don’t worship them. The word “pray” after all means to “petition”. Consider it a long-distance conversation with those who have gone onto the next life. They’re still part of the community, yes? We don’t want to ignore them just cause they died.
You ever pray to a dead relative to watch over you? Same idea.
Catholics just have these 24/7 service reps to hear our problems for us. This way, we don’t have to bug our relatives. I mean, its heaven, do you really want to pause eternal bliss to help Timmy find his keys?
I never prayed to a dead relative. That’d just be weird. And against what I learned in Church, which is that you only pray to God/Jesus/ThatThirdGuy. The idea of praying to someone who wasn’t God was considered A Really Bad Thing.
See, Heathens believe that our ancestors (especially female ones) tend to hang around to keep an eye on their descendants. Certainly mu Mum still pops in from time to time, although my grandmother seems to have moved on to other things. Not really surprising, though, knowing either of them.
Mind you, dead people also go on to various afterlives, depending on various factors.
What actually does happen to you after you die may depend on what you believe, too, though. Who knows? Science hasn’t managed to figure it out yet although it would be interesting if it ever did. Have to get to the point of not being considered a quack science before anything real can happen, though, probably.
If wasn’t for denominations i would spent my childhood without Bacon and Tacos(tacos without cheese). FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING THAT IS HOLY NO TACOS THAT TRULY WOULD BE A LIVING HELL!!
I shutter to think of the consequences of life without Tacos and bacon and Bacon on Tacos. or if your vegetarian you can have beans and lettuce and cheese if your vegan i don’t know what you would put on your taco but as long as you have a taco it does not matter.
For we may have different beliefs and ideas but we can put aside our differences and enjoy Tacos or sandwiches in case you don’t like tortilla shells.
Good luck trying to get all the denominations to agree on their doctrinal differences. I’d rather there be many different denominations. When they’re all arguing about who are the “real” Christians they’re too busy to bother with atheists like me.
my parents actually went to a church of God for the longest time, they didn’t believe that women could teach or pray but to them they were like a family.
That’s a common definition, and popular with people who either want to defend their favorite cult or just give snotty Christians something to chew on. People who study modern cults, or who work with any level of counseling or “deprogramming” are more likely to distinguish cults from other small religious groups based on the degree to which they encourage members to cut themselves off from the rest of society and associate only with other members of the group. I think this is a much more useful criterion.
Well, and because Catholics have a lot of traditions that aren’t in Joyce’s Bible. Non-denominational churches (I’m generalizing, since non-denominational basically means there’s no central authority and no way to put them all together) often go by the principle of “sola scriptura,” I believe it’s called. Nothing but the Bible.
So, since the traditions of the Old Testament were thrown out as of Acts, Joyce’s belief system probably says the church shouldn’t practice any traditions that Jesus or maybe Paul said to do.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That sums it up pretty nicely why other denominations are against catholicism. Though that’s not all, it’s certainly a biggie.
You’re going to back your argument with freaking Revelations?
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that those verses refer only to the prophecies in that specific book, and therefore shouldn’t be applied to the rest of the Bible, there are a coiple of things wrong with your argument:
1. The Bible has being edited, translated and retranslated so many times in the past couple of thousand years that it’s absurd to claim that one version is the true one. So the intructions in thos verses are pointless.
2. Revelations is the most symbolism laden book in the Bible. Trying to derive specific literal instructions from it is absurd.
You know, I’m pretty sure that when the guy who wrote Revelation said you “couldn’t change any of the words in this book,” he meant the specific book he was writing. Not, you know, the big assemblage of scripture that was put together centuries after he died, which his contribution happened to be a part of. (His contribution almost didn’t make it in.)
Also, no where in the canon scripture does it say you’re supposed to choose 66 writings and consider them the only inspired religious texts ever. That’s something folks decided later, on their own. As much as Protestants point their fingers at Catholics for idolatry, they do exactly that with the Bible itself.
It would be very inaccurate to say that the Catholic Church as we know it today began with St. Peter. The idea of
Catholicism as a distinct Christian tradition came about as a result of the schism between the Pope in Rome and the
Patriarch of Constantinople in the 11th century. Before that, there was simply the single Christian church. Even
before that, though, there were various heretical and schismatic groups, some of which continue to exist today,
such as the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches. The history of Christianity is much more complex than most
Americans realize, being exposed only to Catholicism and various protestant denominations.
Um… I don’t quiiite understand what you’re saying here, but if you’re saying that there are no older religions than Catholicism, that is incorrect (although I can see the argument saying that since Peter was the first pope, and Catholicism developed out of that, then the Catholic church is the oldest Christian denomination).
Strictly speaking, there were doctrinal splits that pre-date the Great Schism, such as, IIRC, oriental orthodoxy. Arguably, they’re “older” in that they have been in their present form for longer. I’d say that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are equally old, and that whatever first split off from that united front is the “oldest.”
The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the predominant Oriental Orthodox Christian church in Ethiopia.
They believe they have the Ark of the Covenant.
I was watching a documentary on them in which the basic conversation was “Oh, other Christians/historians have been looking for the Ark of the Covenant? But we’ve had it this whole time.”
From all of these different churches im hearing about hear, I would have to guess there are as many different churches teaching about god in their own way as there are stars in the sky.
Actually, the same could be said about religions in general. I challenge you to find two Muslims of two Jews or two Hindus of two atheists(I’m lumping them in with the religious folks for the sake of discussion) with the exact same belief system.
You know, I’m not one to complain about a comic that does such a thorough job of showcasing female characters, but it’s been six months. Where the fuck is Danny.
Joyce could do what my Granddad did. His father was Jewish. When they converted to Christianity Great Grandad said he could pic any church he wanted. Grandad shopped around and we’re all Methodists to this day because they had the best Basketball team.
It was a good choice regardless, we tend to be laid back (at least at the churches I’ve been to) and are known for having lots of diners and food based functions. Mmmmm… Food based functions…
I never quite got why some Protestants think Catholics are evil. We (and the Orthodoxies) are the originals, after all, and I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church now agrees with a fair amount of the 95 Theses. Maybe it has to do with all that newfangled liberation theology….
Well, it’s certainly not because of our giant catholic robot stockpile. Because we definitely don’t have one of those. Not under the vatican or anywhere.
Way to blow our cover, Jackalpants. Next you’ll tell them about our plan to team up with the Jews to take over the world, starting with the Supreme Court.
Most of it has to do with beliefs that are not substantiated by core biblical texts (i.e. purgatory/limbo) and the degree of ritual and mysticism (Papal authority, transubstantiation, etc).
Well as been said plenty of times already, different denominations tend to hate each other simply for the fact that they’re different. And in western religion, most of them at some point have gone mass murdering on each other over it.
I was in San Fransisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I’d try to stall and detain him, long enough for me to put the film in. I said, “Don’t jump!” and he turns… You’ve heard of the elephant man. He was kind of like that, he had a, well, you could say he had the head of a horse. And my heart went out to him. I said, “Why the long face?”
He said, “‘Cause all my life people have called me mean names like horses-head or Flicka or chess-piece or Trigger…”
I said, “Well, don’t worry about it, Ed. It can’t be that bad.”
He said, “My girlfriend’s suing me!”
I said, “For palomino?”
He said, “Why was I put on this Earth?”
I said, “My friend, anywhere else you wouldn’t stand a chance.”
He said, “Nobody loves me.”
I said, “God loves you, you silly ninny.”
He said, “How do you know there’s a God?”
I said, “Of course there’s a God. Do you think that billions of years ago a bunch of molecules floating around at random could someday have had the sense of humor to make you look like that?”
He said, “I do believe in God.”
I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?”
He said, “A Christian.”
I said, “Me too. Protestant or Catholic?”
He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! What franchise?”
He says, “Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”
I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over!
Quote awesomeness? If you mean you’re going to quote me, I’m flattered! If. You mean I’m quoting something awesome, then no. I came up withthat on my own.
What’s sad is I’ve met Christians (Me R Atheist) who for some reason claimed catholic =/= christian when all you need to count is to revere Christ as ‘the’ messiah, what divides them really are the various minutia of canon dogma, what is Christs relationship to god and the divine, is this or that ceremony meant to be literal or symbolic, etc, etc, picture gotten I’m sure. It’s just such a sticky issue I never quite got the need to try and claim Catholics don’t count as christian.
I agree with this in general. Your one condition for being a Christian could use tweaking though, since I’ve met Muslims who will happily recognize Jesus Christ as “The Messiah” but obviously do not agree with the idea that he is God, nor the son of God, nor a divine being to be worshipped or prayed to. Christians usually have a rather unique definition of “messiah” that others do not share.
Catholics, as a matter of doctrine, violate many explicit commands in scripture (verses regarding icons, idols, and not adding to or taking away from the Bible to name a few) that’s why many baptists and other denominations don’t consider them true Christians.
The most important stickler, being that they don’t believe Christ’s death and resurrection is sufficient for salvation. They add on many many more rules regulations and general works that must be followed at least to some degree. By the Bible’s own definition, that means they are not true followers of the faith.
Correction. That’s why denominations with a literalist, overly narrow interpretation of the Bible don’t consider them Christian. Your statement is only accurate under the assumption that the Biblical interpretation of said baptists and other denominations is the correct one.
And that is very much up for debate. The 1.2 billion Catholics and 300 million Orthodox for starters dispute that interpretation very much.
“…not adding to or taking away from the Bible to name a few”
Funny thing… there wasn’t such a thing as “The Bible” when that was written. Any modern Bible has been added to or taken away from since then. Every last one. They do not contain the whole of the Jewish scriptures that existed at that point, and they contain newer scriptures that did not yet exist. There is also evidence of editing in books that are included in every standard Christian Bible. This is hardly something of which Catholics are uniquely guilty.
Also, Christ’s death and resurrection did redeem everyone of Original Sin, but that crap you did last week? Why don’t you come in and maybe say a few prayers to cover your bases.
I’ve had to correct a lot of people on that, not sure if there is some anti-catholic pamphlet that gets handed out or something.
Especially because the Catholic view of needing to good works essentially equates to a ‘requirement’ to just be a good person by helping others. I’ve never understood why some people seem to miss that.
Yeah, I hear ya there! Had the weirdest moment when I saw a priest on a show once saying that Sweden used to be Lutheran but that these days they’re mostly Christian.
I….I just don’t understand church. Aren’t they all for God? Why is there a specific “Church of God?” I kinda stopped researching this a long time ago. Went to church with a couple different friends to try it out and it creeped me out both times. ‘Course I was a youngin’ when that happened, and I was easily creeped out by stuff…
Yes, they’re all for God, but many of them think they’re the only real Church that God favors. Thus the near-endless permutations of “Church of God” and “Church of Christ”.
True story, I grew up in Bloomington, and my seventh-grade Sunday School teacher wrote *books* for Chick Publications. His first book was how rock music was evil, and his second on how Christian Contemporary music was evil.
I love my UU church. It’s big and pink and ancient and hosts the area LGBT prom. I usually attend the discussion forum before service where we discuss politics or religion or history(one regular attendee is a noted area historian). Then sometimes we get so caught up in the conversation we skip the service and head right over to the coffee shop to continue.
And yes, we had coffee and bagels at the orientation class, along with pita chips, veggies, and a very nice tatziki and 3 hummuses (hummi?).
Meh. Speaking as a Catholic, I’m not sure you should be angry at a fictional character, one of who’s defining characteristics at the moment is being a bit…ignorant, to put it mildly.
Far more offensive has been that I’ve found people who actually do have this kind of anti-Catholic feeling, and in at least one case, it’s a friend who refuses to explain the reason to me.
Please let her have a wake-up call soon. Please. Let her lose the biggest contest of her life or learn about all the pedophilia within the church or witness someone dying horribly right after having prayed or SOMETHING so she can stop being so insufferable.
Why do you seem so angry towards Joyce. Its not exactly gonna change what David has in mind for the story. Not to mention you missed your chance to join the beefing competition on her weeks ago.
I’m not trying to influence the author (that clearly isn’t going to happen), and I don’t really mind that I’m posting this after other people have commented about how they also dislike her. I’m just venting how I feel about a character who’s basically dragging her atheist friend to church and then nitpicking about denominations in the manner of a five-year-old.
Do you honestly not find this character grating in the least?
I find her far more flexible toward other belief systems than the typical picture of the extreme believer. Combined with her being unnacustomed to this kind of social environment, I find her amusing rather than grating.
A parable from the Books of Bokonon seems appropriate here:
“I once knew an Episcopalian lady in Newport, Rhode Island, who asked me to design and build a doghouse for her Great Dane. The lady claimed to understand God and His Ways of Working perfectly. She could not understand why anyone should be puzzled about what had been or about what was going to be.
And yet, when I showed her a blueprint of the doghouse I proposed to build, she said to me, “I’m sorry, but I never could read one of those things.”
“Give it to your husband or your minister to pass on to God,” I said, “and, when God finds a minute, I’m sure he’ll explain this doghouse of mine in a way that even you can understand.”
She fired me. I shall never forget her. She believed that God liked people in sailboats much better than He liked people in motorboats. She could not bear to look at a worm. When she saw a worm, she screamed.
She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he can see what God is Doing.”
This comic (and the discussion of it) sort-of highlights that there really is no single Christianity. Rather, there are a whole bunch of groups who all think they are the One True Faith (TM). Not that most other religions are any different. Makes me glad I’m an atheist.
The thing is, all the details you speak of have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is about not believing in any gods. That’s as far as it goes – the only detail in question is, what’s a god? (It’s a reasonable question, and required to answer the question of whether you believe in one.) Beyond that, there’s nothing.
I hear you asking, ‘But what about believing in evolution, or in the Big Bang? Embracing secular humanism? Disbelieving in ghosts? Rejecting anti-gay bigotry? Aren’t those all parts of the atheist belief?” In a word, no. No more than your belief that a Smiling Mike avatar represents you better than a default avatar is a part of Christian belief. Not all beliefs are part of a given belief system – and it’s the system that gets to define which beliefs are part of it, not the peanut gallery. Atheism is clearly defined: not harboring any belief in gods. That’s it. There are no frills, no scriptures, no canon. You don’t have to believe anything else to be an atheist, and atheism doesn’t tell you to do anything or even to believe anything. It’s really just a description: Bob is tall, Bob is male, Bob is allergic to strawberries, Bob is an atheist.
Now, you might counter that most atheists you know share the beliefs listed above. In response to this: most atheists you know also accept the existence of gravity. As do most theists. This is not because we’re all Gravitians who are told by the GraviPope to believe in it; it’s because it’s a reasonable conclusion that people draw in the absence of anyone telling them not to believe it. And so most people believe it. I think you’ll find that most of the beliefs that you find common to atheists are similar.
First, I just really like drunk mike. He is my favorite character in the Walkyverse and as noone has ever made an avatar of him, I have made one. After going through the trouble I decided to start commenting on this site. So here I am.
Next, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_and_religion I’m not gonna say that it proves anything, but here is wiki. You could also say that Bob is just Bob, but there is more to Bob that makes him different from other Bobs’ like the stuff you gave about Bob above.
I’ll try and think up of some other stuff and I look forward to your response.
The entire page is not relevent no, but there are mention of sects of religions that are essentially atheism. I’m trying to show that there is not just one way of going about believing there is no god.
Let me rephrase that.
Just like christianity is about believing in god.
What I mean is your giving the most basic definition of what you believe. That is an unfair way of looking at things. Your comparing the largest blanket definition of what you believe against the far more detailed definitions of what the other groups believe.
You mean, Christianity is about believing in Thor? Who knew?
There’s LOTS more to Christianity than believing in god – and every variant of Christianity is wrapped up in its own large pile of related beliefs, even of not all of those beliefs are shared across denominations. Those collections of related beliefs are what makes all forms of Christianity belief systems. Atheism lacks such a collection, which is why it isn’t one.
There are many ways of believing in a single belief. Even if that is just believing there is no god. Thats why details are important. You can be just an Athiest like you can be just monotheistic. But you are also a “kind” of what you believe in.
Atheism doesn’t have “kinds” you either don’t believe or you do. That’s the end of it. Might be hard for a religious person to understand since you make your life about god. Atheism is different, your life isn’t about god’s non-existance, frankly atheism has no bearing on your life, at all.
But thats the thing. There actually are “kinds” of atheists. Some are actually sects of other religions too.
And I dont really make my life about god. I dont really like your assumption of my personality when I have not even given destinction to what I believe to you fellows. I am very loose on the whole god thing. It has never been a major part of my life.
Don’t worry about godless atheists causing your children to leave the faith. Worry about the other Christians, even the nice, non-judgmental ones. All it takes is a little exposure to other versions of the church to get your children to start worrying about finding the true Christian faith, and who knows where that will lead. Just look at Jeremiah Bannister.
It’ll be neat when The One True Christ shows up. Then he can tell us whether it’s the first or second time he’s done so and the Jews and Christians can all get properly in sync.
If God’s been paying attention to the internet, He shall arrive on a dinosaur so we’ll all know it’s Him.
Too lazy to read all the posts, but judging by what I’ve seen, people have given their views, so I’ll share mine on religion:
Religion is far, far older than civilization (and probably modern humans); the oldest known deliberate ritual burials date from ~90,000 BC. You do not ceremonially bury someone with grave goods if you don’t believe that they’re going to be used by the dead person in an afterlife.
And cave bear cults were common throughout Asia and Europe for tens of thousands of years, judging by the amount of evidence from them, and is probably the longest running “religion” in history. The Venus fertility figures also range almost as old, the oldest being 35-40,000 years old.
As far as the ‘one true religion’, it would therefore be the first religion to ever come about (the ‘true’ religion would be the original one, wouldn’t it?), which would most likely be something based in animism or -possibly- shamanism.
The fact is, we just don’t know, and possibly never will know, what the first religion was. Christianity is just another in a long, long history of belief in a supernatural or divine beings, and in truth deserves no special preference. The only reason it’s so huge now is because it was the religion of most of the world explorers and conquerors (aka Europeans) that drew the map of the world we know today.
Had Tamberlane and other Mongol military leaders not so devastated the Middle East during the Middle Ages, it’s possible that Christianity wouldn’t be as big as it is today, but that’s a topic for an entirely different discussion.
“As far as the ‘one true religion’, it would therefore be the first religion to ever come about (the ‘true’ religion would be the original one, wouldn’t it?), which would most likely be something based in animism or -possibly- shamanism.”
Two problems with that (if we suppose there can be truth in religion). It assumes that we started with divine knowledge and somehow lost it, which is the opposite of how collective human knowledge usually works. Prehistoric understanding of physics isn’t the “one true science” after all. If there is any truth to be known in religion, then that knowledge can be improved over time.
It also ignores the concept of divine revelation, which is the cornerstone of every religion I can think of. Supposing there is a divine being, and it suddenly appeared to you and said “here I am” then whatever you believed before would be false, regardless of whether it was the first human religion or not.
Where older surviving religions and sects have a problem with newer ones has nothing to do with age or chronological order on its own, since most of them acknowledge a turning point somewhere in history when we went from being ignorant of The Truth to having knowledge of it. Most make no claims to be the first. Rather, once you have the “right” answer through divine revelation, changing it around would be “wrong” for obvious reasons.
“Where older surviving religions and sects have a problem with newer ones has nothing to do with age or chronological order on its own, since most of them acknowledge a turning point somewhere in history when we went from being ignorant of The Truth to having knowledge of it. Most make no claims to be the first. Rather, once you have the “right” answer through divine revelation, changing it around would be “wrong” for obvious reasons.”
And what makes this “right” answer the correct one? How do we know the revealer of the word wasn’t a schizophrenic who heard voices and just got lucky? We can’t know, and I refuse to subscribe to it, or any religion, because of that. If a loving god is willing to let those who choose to find their own way burn in a lake of fire when they die, even if they were otherwise saint-worthy, then to hell with that god. If I’m not worthy in a god’s eyes because I choose to be human and live my own life, then that god is not worth my praise or time.
We don’t know. What I’m suggesting is that a one true religion would necessarily have to be actually true, and that there is no logical reason to suppose older rantings are any truer than newer ones unless you’ve already chosen a religion. That being the case, there is no reason to assume the first religion is the true one.
I really do wish the punchline wasn’t “Joyce, whose really religious, thinks Catholics are weird and over the top.” It offended me to the point where I’m writing a comment just to say something and feel better. I know I might get comments defending the punchline, but that won’t really change how I feel now.
When I was a kid, my family went to a church that would have been kissing snakes had there been any in northern Canada. This weird and way over the top church believed that Catholics were just plain wrong, and therefore influenced by the devil. Feel free to be offended.
After my family left that church and went back to the normal Pentecostal one (when my mother unwittingly planted the seeds of my atheism by warning me to beware of churches that turn into cults), I was allowed to mingle with all the others (even though they were wrong and influenced by the devil) and had three close friends in high school, two Pentecostals and one Catholic.
Last time I went home for Christmas, which was the first time I did since deciding I couldn’t be Christian anymore, my Catholic friend showed up and we had a great time. My Pentecostal friends didn’t return my calls, and their presents are still waiting for them at my parents’ house over a year later. Just sayin’.
Actually, she has a sort of point here. About the churches I mean. I was raised Catholic, but every Catholic church I’ve attended since I’ve lived away from home has been very different. The pastor and community(as community is a big part of the Church in general) make a big difference.
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I am seeing red.
That means Willis used 255 less colors than he should’ve.
Swing and a miss by a nautical mile.
but now we get a whole slew of people debating/trolling/discussing differnt forms of Christianity. Fun for alll!
Atheism: much simpler. So….atheists for the win…?
No offence to Atheists, but I find it easier to believe in something than to believe in nothing.
It may be easier/nicer, doesn’t make it righter. To me the most essential part of humanity is its quest for knowledge, and personally beliefs based on anecdotes and legend have no place to be held as certainty.
I agree. We should try to understand the world by what is more probable and efficient. Not by what is easier or nicer.
Efficiency takes to long, and the probable is unlikely to happen.
The Gravatars are almost too perfect for this thread.
That’s why some people believe in God based on actually meeting him. Personal experience isn’t the same as ‘anecdotes’ you’ve heard from someone else.
So you’re saying you believe the quest for knowledge is important. . .
I prefer agnosticism – you’re not tied to thinking one belief in particular is the only “correct” one, and you keep an open mind to being disproven.
Personally I mix atheism with agnosticism. I’m atheist about every single religion’s deity, and agnostic about the concept of a deus.
Seriously. It should read, “255 fewer colors.”
If this comic offended you, I don’t think I got the joke. Care to explain?
I think the issue is that Joyce obviously assumed Sierra was catholic because she’s b…
I don’t know if I should say, actually. It could be really offensive to some people, but when you think about it it isn’t all that harsh an assumption.
Joyce thinks Sierra could have been catholic because she is bare-midriffed.
For the sake of my sanity, I’m just gonna go with the “Catholics are weird” explanation.
We are all weird pal.
SO STOP PICKIN’ ON THE IRISH, FRENCH, SPANISH, AND THE SWISS.
How could you forget Italians when discussing ROMAN Catholics??
You forgot most of Latin America and the Caribbean.
Yeah, I’m a Catholic and I’m Spanish. And I’m weird even when compared to other Catholics.
No offense to any Catholics. Us Methodists are an odd bunch as well.
But Methodist don’t have funny hats….. Do they?
Sometimes… But funny hats are not a requirement, no.
My church did have a pastor who tried to throw bread up into the balcony once.
I’m from a united Methodist church, myself. My pastor road a harly Davidson up through the center aisle to the front of the sanctuary to start service once
First sign I ever got that Jay Kay is a Catholic.
“Funny hats”? The spork are you talking about funny hats in Christianity?
Pope?
Bishops on up wear funny hats when in full gear for a service, at least in Catholic and Episcopal churches.
I think in Eastern Orthodox churches they wear funny hats too.
It is mostly Catholics are not always popular with other Christian groups. Jack Chick frequently sent out tracts stating that Catholics were stealing people’s souls with communion wafers, were behind many wars and the holocaust, started a cult holding Mary higher than Jesus, had a database on every non-Catholic Christian, and created Islam in order to subvert Christian influence in the middle east. The child molestation scandals, a man buying his way into being the pope in ancient times, and the fact that the church used to accept bribes for “repentance” has not helped the Catholic in the eyes of most non-Catholics.
Are you kidding? That’s what I became Catholic for!
Wel yes, but mainly its her blatant anti-catholicism.
That’s fudnies protestants for you.
It’s not just Fundies but also the few a-holes in every Denomination. Most actually don’t care.
Fundies never cease to amuse me. If there weren’t any of those secularists or atheists they’d be at each others’ throats. First they’d exclude all the non monotheist groups, then the Muslims, then the Jews, Mormons, Catholics, and whatever denomination they think is insufficiently Christian.
Sheesh, don’t you read your Chick tracts? Catholics
are polytheists!
Not surprising though as she has Chick Tracts and a number of them are anti-Catholic.
As a non-American Atheist, I thought “Chick Tracts” was a derisive term for feminist comics until this comic made me google it. True story.
Thank you Willis, I guess.
If you like RPGs, try Darker Dungeons. It’s a hoot.
…What is this I don’t even
When I still played , I often thought of doing a D20 Modern or CoC campaign inspired by that. Could never decide if the main objective should be eldritch horrors or hunting Jack Chick. Maybe Jack Chick as an eldritch horror?
I would so play a game that had Jack Chick as an eldritch horror from beyond.
Ugggg… chick tracts… I have so many of them…
You never had the “pleasure” of Chick Tracts?. The fundies around here keep leaving them. For some reason they got all offended when we started collecting them and trading them like they were baseball cards. Laughing out loud while reading them probably didn’t help either.
And yes, some fundie types are convinced that R.C.s are allied with satan (in my head, I said satan in the Church Lady voice).
I’ve never read a Chick Tract no. I also thought once that “Fundies” were people who liked shennanigans (to have fun).
The strangest thing is that my aunt had some chick tracts on her house… she is catholic and she got them from church… O.o
I am catholic and didn’t see red. I must of read it wrong. No I think it has to do with the fact that Joyce has shown herself to be mostly anti-everything. Anti-Jewish, Anti-Same Sex, Anti-small lakes. I would have been shocked to hear her say something positive about any religion but hers. Oooh, I wonder if and how she’ll react when she finds out Sal went to Catholic school.
Just keep waiting for that character development.
Well Willis hasn’t brought up eastern religions yet or the Amish.
Amishnessism isn’t an Eastern religion? It is pretty far east of me in OR, being that the center of Am-land seems to be PA. Had a girlfriend from Guam for a while. We decided she was Guamish.
He’s brought up eastern religions when Walky mentioned the power rangers: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/pray/
Or Heathens. Honestly, when are us followers of the Old Norse gods gonna get some air time?! Comics need more followers of Thor and Odin et alia in them. XD
–Seriously, we exist, you know. Just sayin’.
They are out there – the best is Thistil Mistil Kistil (http://tmkcomic.depleti.com/), Odin & Friends (http://www.odinandfriends.com/ )is very irreverent, but usually manages to be reasonably true to the spirit of things.
Brat-Halla (http://brat-halla.com/) just rubs me the wrong way. Then there is always Scandinavia and the World (http://satwcomic.com/scandinavia-and-the-world). Not really Heathen, but still a lot of fun.
You have whole music genre.
*Must have/ must’ve. Seriously, does “must of” actually make sense to people??
Thank you for pointing it out! I thought I was the only one who frowny-faces at the would’ve =/= would of thing.
A thousand times this.
Gods, yes.
I don’t think Joyce assumed Sierra is Catholic; it’s more about how various churches view Catholics as worshipers of Pope rather than Christ.
Do they honestly? Does that mean that they view Anglicans as worshipping the Queen? O_o
That is exactly how some Protestants see Catholics, yes. Others believe they worship Mary.
Geez, even I know that the whole “praying” to the saints and Mary and stuff is just asking that guy you know who has an in with the boss to ask the boss for a favour on your behalf. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us,” what’s confusing about that?
This is the part that always kind of bugged me about some medieal descriptions of the Norse heathens “praying” to and “worshipping” idols, i.e. statues and carvings of their gods. Most Christian churches (couldn’t speak for others) have a cross up at the front, over or behind the altar, which one could argue, looking from the outside, that the congregation is praying to. Are they really worshipping those two bits of wood? No, of course not. It’s a symbol that helps focus minds and energy. Same with the “idols” the Norse we apparently praying to, and same with the Catholic saints, so far as I can understand it.
In the case of the saints, it’s saying to someone the church has officially deemed to be particularly holy, and who has died (and therefore is obviously up there in Heaven where they can sort of talk to God directly, “Hey. I’m having a problem with this. You know about this stuff; you specialized in it when you were alive. Hey, could you talk to God aout it and, like, get him to help me out here?” I really don’t get what is so hard to understand about that. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
But then, I’m not appalled by the concept to begin with, so that probably helps.
Do other sects see the Anglicans as worshipping the Queen, though? Which is weird, because it’s not like the Catholics worship the Pope.
Man, sometimes I think all these different sects just need to get together in a room and go, “Okay, now. Ask whatever you like, try to not be a jerk in your phrasing, and try to not get offended by the questions or the answers. Try and learn about each other a bit.” But in order for that to work one would have to admit that it wasn’t entirely My-sect-is-right-and-all-others-are-wrong, and that seems to be difficult for a lot of people. :-/ Learning about others firsthand would probably help a lot of things, though.
The problem with asking Mary to pray for you is she is dead and therefore cannot hear you.
I don’t really have anything to say about this strip, so here‘s an uninteresting edit of the strip loosely based on one of the comments instead.
Lol!
Good show, old bean.
Good show.
Pick the one with the best music.
pick the one that reads the bible.
Which Bible?
Good god man, we need specifics.
All of them. What kinda of Pastor only reads one bible?
This. I used to live across the street from a church with FANTASTIC music. I’d pass by on Sundays on my way to brunch and there would be organ, bass, drums, guitar and some pretty serious vocal harmonies going. The whole block was filled with the sounds of these folks rocking out. If I were to go to any church ever, it would be that one.
I want more Sierra. She is tall and awesome.
And has a navel.
And the best “out there” expressions!
Joyce no church has the correct beliefs and they are all weirdo.
http://youtu.be/MeSSwKffj9o
This better be a video of Sam the Eagle.
George Carlin played Sam the Eagle? HOLY SHIT!
George Carlin? HOLY SHIT!
God Bless Joe Pesci.
Joe Pesci? Holy shit!
I think what she means, subconsciously that is, by “correct beliefs” are ones that won’t cause her to consider there might be something misguided about the level of both parental and social control, especially post high school graduation, she was raised around and still clings to.
Speaking of Joyce’s family, does DoA Joyce still have like a gazillion brothers?
If so, where are they and what do they do?
Ask Willis it’s his comic.
Cast page: http://www.dumbingofage.com/cast/attachment/castjoyce2/
So, that’s a ‘No’ on the ‘gazillion brothers’ part. Gotcha.
Any chance for fluff on DoA Joyce’s older brothers?
She might go home for thanksgiving in a billion gazillion years.
So what makes these Non-Denominational Churches any different from any other protestant churches?
Presumably the same kinds of things that make “any other protestant churches” different from one another.
Varies church to church.
So no two Non-Denominational Churches believe in all the same things then huh.
Most Non-Denominational churches I know of are Independent Baptist based. But of course that’s because I search them out. I think places like Solid Rock Church in Mason, Ohio and the Church for those who don’t like Church in Milford, Ohio are considered non-denominational, though the latter, we don’t even consider that a real church. It’s a feel good church that says nothing bad can happen and God will allow anyone into Heaven as long as you do good works and love others, which is false. They don’t preach the Bible whatsoever.
Solid Rock Church is the one with Big Butter Jesus. Don’t know much about the church though
According to wikipedia, Jack Chick is an Independent Baptist, so that more or less comfirms my belief that Joyce believes like Jack does.
I dunno man, the bible is so flexible that I can see that being a valid belief system within its parameters. It seems way friendlier than other churches anyway, and one whose parishioners I wouldn’t mind hanging around with. The best Christians I know tend to have beliefs along those lines. The intolerable hypocrites? Well, they don’t.
“The Bible is flexible.”
What Bible are you reading?
Well given that two of the Gospels disagree about the birth of jesus, the other two completely ignore this ‘miraculous’ event and all four of them disagree on the specifics of the
rebirth ceremonyressurection I’d say that it’s a pretty flexible book.*resurrection
Paperback.
EXACTLY.
“…though the latter, we don’t even consider that a real church. It’s a feel good church that says nothing bad can happen and God will allow anyone into Heaven as long as you do good works and love others, which is false.”
This kind of stuff is hilarious. I love it when people pretend to have any answers at all, never mind all of them.
Most Non-Denominational churches I search out and know of are Independent Baptist based. The BAPTIST church has become very legalistic over time, like many catholic churches and possibly Lutheran (though don’t quote me on that one).
Anyways, Independent Baptist/Non-Denominational churches don’t care what you wear, what you look like, what you believe, etc., most teach, KJV, NKJV, NIV, MacAurthur Study Bible NIV, stuff like that. They make sure that what they teach and preach comes straight from the Bible as well as gathering material from other respected Bible scholars (For example someone like Billy Graham, J. Vernon McGee, C.S. Lewis and other well known past preachers).
Unlike strict Baptist churches, they still have rules that the members should go by and if a member that is serving in the church in a position violates that rule, they may undergo church discipline with the correct course of action. Non-Members and unregular church members should be willing to follow the rules, but don’t necessarily have to, but will not be allowed to serve in a function unless things change. Non-Believers are completely excluded though if they are disrupting service too often by their actions they may be asked to leave or listen out in the lobby until they clean up. Other than that, it’s very lenient.
Strictly Baptist churches require that you dress up every Sunday, say that you MUST be there every Sunday, sing a certain type of music, must use a certain version of the Bible, and so on. Our last church that we were at for 14 years, fell into that trap after our original pastor left and we voted in the new one, who should never have gotten a second vote. He practically forced the original members out of the church. 150 church members in 4 years.
Man, growing up I’ve been to Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Non-Denominational, Evangelical Free… and every single last one claimed they only taught stuff “straight from the Bible.”
I don’t think that’s really a distinguishing point of doctrine.
Which Bible though?
Doesn’t really matter. Any two people can read a single Bible an infinitely different number of ways.
Not to mention that parts of it has been destroyed in the past.
I <3 the book of Enoch. Dude is such a biblical alien abductee weirdo.
I actually talked about this with a Jesuit once, and asked about the bible and it’s interpretations and how should they be taken.
I remember him saying once that though he believed that the Word of God are Perfect, you had to remember that people reading it, transcribing, interpreting them are not, since as humans we are imperfect.
He said, that someone who claims to have absolute understanding of God’s Word, was like the equivalent of Enlightenment or something.
ヽ（´ー｀）┌
So true. I mean, the book has been around thousands of years and has been re-edited and translated lord knows how many times. I give more credence to sermons with direct biblical support, buuuut that still allows for a great deal of wiggle room.
Ultimately, while I use the bible to guide me, I follow what feel right. This means that when I go to a new place I have to try out some churches to find one that is not ‘weird’ (I am batized Lutheran, but I would rather go to a liberal insert-other-protesant-church-here than a conservative Lutheran church). ‘Weird’ for me generally translates into ‘judgemental’ or ‘full of hate’, anyone recites Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and I am out of there.
Well, there ARE principles by which texts are judged on whether or not they fit into the biblical canon.
It needs to have been around fairly soon after the events occurred (which is why the texts that magically appeared during… I dunno, the 1800s… aren’t part of the canon).
It needs to have been widely distributed during the time period, since if it didn’t go anywhere, it probably was because people who were there found flaws with it.
It needs to apply to the principle of “orthodoxy” and not contradict anything from before (which, admittedly, is where some texts could have been lost, at least logically, but I doubt the Bible’s canon was decided by just one dude picking and choosing what fit with his worldview). And
I think the fourth has to do with the credibility of the author himself, if he was referenced in other texts in a trustworthy way or something.
So yeah, it’s still highly possible that stuff was lost or messed up, but it’s not nearly as likely as people make it out to be. It’s not like “it’s been re-edited and translated a bunch of times” always works either, because scholars DO try to find the oldest copy in accordance with the first principle, and people are getting better with translating, which is why a lot more versions have cropped up relatively recently.
Part of the problem is that it’s impossible to know what was “orthodox” for real, since what has since been established as orthodox is the stuff that wasn’t burned. History is written by the winners, etc.
Even so, half of the books in the Bible that claim to be written by Paul were not, and none of the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
Mind you, there was the whole Niocene Convention, too, when a bunch of leaders of various groups got together to decide once and for all whether or not Jesus actually was the Christ, or just a prophet, and whether or not he actually was the son of God and was resurrected, or was just some guy, and once they decided to go the “Jesus IS the Son of God” route, they got rid of the books that had been written about him that didn’t support that. Hence the Niocene Creed, and hence the gospels of only a handful of apostles making it into the current Bible (King James or not, they may phrase things differently but I don’t believe they actually have different verses in there) despite him having twelve disciples, all of whom wrote gospels, along with a lot of others.
It would probably be extremely enlightening to go digging through the Vatican’s library some day (like I’ll ever have a chance to do that).
I think she’s questioning which translation and which accepted canon. Some people believe in the Gospel of Saint Thomas, but most groups refuse to believe in the book as a good portion has Jesus acting like an angry and evil kid with reality altering powers that he uses at a drop of a hat to kill or harm those who annoy him. Supposedly the story involves Jesus growing up from a bratty kid to a respectable and helpful adult, which does paint a better picture for the nature of humanity.
This Episcopalian is nodding vigorously.
The Necronomicon
The Life of Brian.
“He’s Not the Messiah is Naughty Boy”
correction:
He’s not the Messiah he’s very naughty boy
Are you a virgin?
I cannot imagine too many Christian denominations willing to claim that they don’t follow the Bible somehow.
“We take all our doctrine straight from a copy of Christian Science Weekly that was recited throughout the town in a large-scale game of Telephone and then retranscribed and padded with some of the pastor’s personal opinions. The only true source of God’s divine message”
You’d get the same results at least half the time anyway though.
I was raised in a charismatic non-denominational church that had split off from Disciples of Christ.
The point with non-denominational churches is that they tend to be idiosyncratic.
I probably would have objected less to going to church if there had been college girls in pajamas there.
and bagels
College girls on motorcycles in pajamas!
Let’s try that again with the proper html tags. College girls
on motorcyclesin pajamas!…playing children’s card games for peoples’s souls.
i think i saw that movie once. it was made by samuel l. bronkowitz, right?
Let’s not. Motorcycles wearing pajamas is a hilarious mental image.
Catholicism, Italy’s biggest export next to expensive cars and post cards.
What? No mention of pizza, lasagna, macaroni or the Mafia?
The Mafia is Sicilian not Italian.
But Sicily is still part of Italy.
Yesish
Tell that to a Sicilian.
But never go against him. Not when death is on the line.
Unless your immune to the poison you are using.
Oh no you didn’t! Sicily is totally not Italy. It’s Sicily- its own country, really. Half the reason the mafia showed up was because sicilians hated going to the “proper authorities” about legal matters, because the “proper authorities” were either the invading french or the invading italians.
Hence the near by of FUCs – aka “Fscking Ugly Corsicans” (as per Richard Marcinko, Leader of SEAL Team 2, founder of SEAL Team 6 & Red Cell).
When I tried thinking of things the first hing I had were hairy backs and gold chains, but then I realized that’s Greece.
I like to think that Americans stole pizza from the Italians since it is barely known to them but there are dozens of ‘basterdized’ pizza types in the USA (like Chicago deep dish and that California Pizza kitchen stuff). We even eat it without forks and knives “like savages”.
We stole pizza from the Italians like we stole ‘Chinese’ food from the Chinese.
Actually the Vatican is it’s own country, and not part of Italy.
And there is also San Marino.
The last city-state.
Don’t forget Singapore.
Touche, I totally did.
And Monaco
…and New York.
Just wanna say I love the headers.
First one I saw was Amazi-Girl in the moonlight.
Still gotta wonder how Ultra Car manages to not only exist in this world, but pull off a daring second life of vigilantism.
Do not make me go into this again…
Here, I don’t have to:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/identity-2/#comment-2325
THANK YOU.
One of my biggest pet peeves in the comments.
Correct beliefs. Weirdo churches. Good thing she’s not Catholic.
Ahahahaha. Good stuff.
Am I the only one surprised that Joyce’s family was of the “nondenominational” variety? I would’ve pinged her as a Baptist or something.
Her beliefs must be similar to Jack Chick’s as she has had his Tracts on hand before.
OHGODNOPLEASENONONONONO.
I think non-denominational is a good way for Willis to avoid getting heat from any one faction if they get offended by Joyce or her particular beliefs. That, or it prevents her from seeming like a stereotype of any one Christian faith.
It wont stop the WMG though.
Warner Music Group? I know they censor a lot of youtube videos but Joyce too?
HEH, I’m talking about WMG as in Wild Mass Guessing.
Your comment also works in view of the fact that WMG is also the name of a leading corporation in the management of radioactive waste.
http://www.wmginc.com
Incidentally, there are multiple different churches called “Church of God”, so if knowing which one she meant was integral to understanding today’s comic, there’s an issue.
As a completely secularly raised agnostic, I have no idea what any kind of “Church of God” is. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me?
just hang the list on the wall and throw a dart.
Good god! That’s pretty much magic you’re talking. May as well just head on over to the church of Satan and find yourself a goat to mate with, heathen!
I approve of this direction for the current story.
Im getting rather excited.
Sober!Mike as your AV makes that comment hilarious.
Sober?
I do as well. I think it would be hilarious for Joyce to meet a LaVeyan Satanist in the comic. Not that I’m B.S.-ing myself and thinking it would be an eye-opening experience for growth for her, I just want to see the look on her face.
To be clear I did not choose to make any specific reference to LaVeyan Satanism, except possible rumors about the LaVey inner circle heard from when I used to live near South Coast Plaza and his ’empire’. Nor to actually disparage magic, having been a practicing wiccan and ovate druid at times in my life.
That was clear to me. And I think most people who know enough that Church of Satan = LaVeyan Satanism also probably know that boinking goats is not part of their practices.
It might be a miracle. It depends on various factors.
Sierra’s face in the last panel makes me smile. I’m not sure why.
Her faces in every strip she’s been in have made me smile!
I love how about two hundred little parallel continuities opened up just from Sierra’s declaration.
Pfft. The Church of God can’t possibly compare to the Church of Dog.
The Bounty Hunter?
No, the awesome robot.
I believe that’s Church of D0g.
or the Church of Mecha.
Isn’t that Cyber-Islam?
And somehow an annual pilgrimage into the desert to visit a mysterious cube-like structure still fits in very neatly. Well done!
No, you’re thinking of the Church of the Latter Day Cyborg.
PENANCE IS FUTILE! Heavy stuff, those folks.
Not the original branch of the Church!
Sierra makes me happy. I don’t know why.
I want to see Joyce introduce her to Becky. “It’s cool, Becky, she’s not Catholic.”
What’s wrong with Catholic?
What isn’t?
I was going to argue with you about that, but I am Catholic and have recently decided to stop going to Church. They’re getting even more absurd.
The Buddy Christ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BEZaPN8gUY
Not that bad, but something along those lines.
In a nutshell? Many protestant and non-denominational churches think that Catholics are corrupt and wrong, for various reasons. To some churches, being Catholic is synonymous with the word “sinner”.
Including the Catholic church itself. It’s the only reason I can figure why there is so much need for confession in the church.
Nothing. Protestants just want to feel superior to everyone else. And the whole Protestant Reformation and European Wars of Reglion thing.
Take that first “Protestant” and replace with “Every group of people ever”.
its because we’re the sweetness. much like with america, people love to hate the HNIC
I know that at my own church the presiding mentality was that most Catholics couldn’t really be called Christians at all, just on account of how many Christmas Christians and the like they have.
Not like we considered them particularly sinful or anything, but we pretty much just lumped them in with the rest of the secular world.
I think that fits with Joyce’s unease regarding Sierra’s attire. Already has seen what she’s wearing, was confused by the fact that she’s going to church, was expecting to hear she’s a practically agnostic individual loosely affiliated with a Christian faith.
As with any religous debate I kind of sit on the side line. I never got the whole “my god is better than your god” thing. Religion is always a matter of choice. Same as what soda is your favorite. Coke, pepsi, orange grape, iced tea. Choose what’s best for you. You don’t have to like what your friend drinks. Doesn’t mean what they drink is wrong or right. Everyone can have a drink and enjoy. Some choose not to drink.
Just my 2 cents.
The problem with Catholics is the priest can’t marry.
It makes it hard on the women’s social group.
Sierra’s not the most intelligent character, is she?
She may not seem intelligent but although for what she lacks in intelligence she seems to makes up for with wisdom
“Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid.”
~Albert Einstein~
She is being polite by pretending to be oblivious to the Joyce’s dilemma.
Church of God, a church so cool it doesn’t need the word “the” in front of it.
I love how Sierra looks so damn proud of the fact that she goes to Church of God. That grin is great.
Man, Sierra’s probably proud of ANYTHING she does. It’s nice to have such a cheery character! I think she’ll probably be one of the better-liked ones, from the look of it.
I grew up going to Non denom churches. Last one I went to the pastor was Jewish…. *lol*
Wait… what now?
Well, sometimes you want a pastor who matches the deity.
Welp, the cleverness of that made me laugh more than the comic! …no offense
Boom!
Pretty sure God isn’t Jewish, but a follower of Himselfism
Jesus was Jewish. Jesus was God. Therefore, God is Jewish!
I’m following you. So what you are saying is that of you are Jewish you are Jesus.
Of=if
Jewsus.
Q.E.D.
The Joke is its a synagogue and the pastor was a Rabbi Dierna is Jewish
*frown* That’s … a strange joke, if that’s the case. I’m afraid I’d have to give it a 5/10. Shows promise with a weird premise, but needs work on making sense.
No. The pastor was raised Jewish but converted to Christianity. He still practiced Jewish things tho.
Im not Jewish. Im Buddhist.
I’m assuming you mean Ethnic Jew, otherwise I can’t imagine that working well.
Well, maybe Messianic Jew…
Why not? Jews can become Christians. I heard about this one guy from Nazareth….
If I had to goto a church i choose the one that serves coffee and bagels.
Synagogue?
Ah…U.U. I had an atheist friend who recently started attending a Unitarian Church. She says she loves it.
I love my UU church. It’s big and
pink and ancient and hosts the
area LGBT prom. I usually attend
the discussion forum before
service where we discuss politics
or religion or history(one regular
attendee is a noted area
historian). Then sometimes we
get so caught up in the
conversation we skip the service
and head right over to the coffee
shop to continue.
Been down a lot of paths myself and U.U. is kind of like tying it all together instead of leaving it behind.
And yes, we had coffee and
bagels at the orientation class,
along with pita chips, veggies,
and a very nice tatziki and 3
hummuses (hummi?).
Gets a little creepy when you have one who insists on dressing like him all the time, though.
Yeah, Joyce, watch out for them weirdo Catholics! You never know what craziness they’re up to!
That Robin is your avatar makes this comment even more hilarious.
Every time I pass a First Assembly of God church, I think “They built him here? What god? Primus?”
Does IU have branch of the Church of Cthulhu
“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn”
Because If all religion is evil Why shout you or anyone settle for a lesser evil when you can have the greatest Evil of all, blessed be Cthulhu may devour his chosen last.
Mike can get pretty bad too.
Cthulhu v Mike a battle of the ages!!!!
Mike is actually Shub-Niggurath, Black Goat of the Woods With a Thousand Young.
Which would explain his fixation on everyone’s moms.
I thought Shub-Niggurath WAS a mom.
Ia! Ia!
I’ve never liked denominations. The Church needs to be as united as possible. Everyone will have separate opinions, but as long as you try your best to live for Christ and put Him first, what else matters? However, the thing is most people don’t put Him first.
Some people prefer different styles of worship. Denominations are pretty good for that.
Cool, you agree with everything I say and we’ll be totally united.
that’s the problem with the christian faith in general. the Catholics worship every saint they can think of before even really considering praying to God. methodists don’t believe in the power and grace that Jesus died on the cross for and baptists can’t be quiet long enough to actually realize that just because you aren’t a baptist doesn’t make you a demon. then there are the non denominationals which are basically the Christian’s version of a hipster.
however: catholics are so devout that they wouldn’t really “stray” from the path once they find it, methodists will tell you easily how to live a life aimed towards Christ. and when baptists start praying miracles happen. the non denominational need to get off their high horse long enough to actually teach the truth.
if we could all shut up and get along long enough to actually read the bible we’d really be going somewhere.
I only know enough to tell you how wrong your idea of Methodism is, but if you’re just as wrong about the other denominaions, you know nothing. Grace is one of the most important aspects of any Christian’s faith.
Catholics only pray to the saints, we don’t worship them. The word “pray” after all means to “petition”. Consider it a long-distance conversation with those who have gone onto the next life. They’re still part of the community, yes? We don’t want to ignore them just cause they died.
It’s really more like saints are your representatives in parliament.
You ever pray to a dead relative to watch over you? Same idea.
Catholics just have these 24/7 service reps to hear our problems for us. This way, we don’t have to bug our relatives. I mean, its heaven, do you really want to pause eternal bliss to help Timmy find his keys?
I never prayed to a dead relative. That’d just be weird. And against what I learned in Church, which is that you only pray to God/Jesus/ThatThirdGuy. The idea of praying to someone who wasn’t God was considered A Really Bad Thing.
Hm, I can see where you are coming from, but don’t think of it as praying like you would to God, but, like Steven said above, it’s a petition.
Like you might ask a priest/pastor to pray for you, you’re asking the saints to pray for you as well.
Generally, we believed that dead people were dead. They would not be dead at the end of the world, but at the moment they’re still dead.
Huh. Neat.
See, Heathens believe that our ancestors (especially female ones) tend to hang around to keep an eye on their descendants. Certainly mu Mum still pops in from time to time, although my grandmother seems to have moved on to other things. Not really surprising, though, knowing either of them.
Mind you, dead people also go on to various afterlives, depending on various factors.
What actually does happen to you after you die may depend on what you believe, too, though. Who knows? Science hasn’t managed to figure it out yet although it would be interesting if it ever did. Have to get to the point of not being considered a quack science before anything real can happen, though, probably.
Meh. I’ll find out soon enough, myself!
If wasn’t for denominations i would spent my childhood without Bacon and Tacos(tacos without cheese). FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING THAT IS HOLY NO TACOS THAT TRULY WOULD BE A LIVING HELL!!
I shutter to think of the consequences of life without Tacos and bacon and Bacon on Tacos. or if your vegetarian you can have beans and lettuce and cheese if your vegan i don’t know what you would put on your taco but as long as you have a taco it does not matter.
For we may have different beliefs and ideas but we can put aside our differences and enjoy Tacos or sandwiches in case you don’t like tortilla shells.
They can use bacon salt.
And wash it all down with pie for desert. It’s nice to know we can agree on the important things, at least.
Soy chorizo + a finely diced hash of onions, potatoes and mushrooms = excellent vegan taco filling!
Good luck trying to get all the denominations to agree on their doctrinal differences. I’d rather there be many different denominations. When they’re all arguing about who are the “real” Christians they’re too busy to bother with atheists like me.
bother bother bother… must I go on?
Church of God?
She’s part of a cult?
my parents actually went to a church of God for the longest time, they didn’t believe that women could teach or pray but to them they were like a family.
From what Wikipedia says, it doesn’t LOOK like a cult. *shrug* Though it’s a pretty sparse definition on there, really.
well from a cynical point of view the only difference between a cult and a religion is tradition and government sanction.
I’d say size. The latter comes when a faith is widespread enough, the former from the time it takes to assemble enough people.
That’s a common definition, and popular with people who either want to defend their favorite cult or just give snotty Christians something to chew on. People who study modern cults, or who work with any level of counseling or “deprogramming” are more likely to distinguish cults from other small religious groups based on the degree to which they encourage members to cut themselves off from the rest of society and associate only with other members of the group. I think this is a much more useful criterion.
None of this matters if people didn’t associate the word “cult”
with negative connotations.
Stop associating the word with negative connotations.
What’s wrong with being Catholic? (Other than the fact that we’re all insane) Why would Joyce be against them?
Because you’re different.
Well, and because Catholics have a lot of traditions that aren’t in Joyce’s Bible. Non-denominational churches (I’m generalizing, since non-denominational basically means there’s no central authority and no way to put them all together) often go by the principle of “sola scriptura,” I believe it’s called. Nothing but the Bible.
So, since the traditions of the Old Testament were thrown out as of Acts, Joyce’s belief system probably says the church shouldn’t practice any traditions that Jesus or maybe Paul said to do.
*didn’t say to do, I mean. Herp derp.
Revelation 22:18-19
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That sums it up pretty nicely why other denominations are against catholicism. Though that’s not all, it’s certainly a biggie.
Revelations? Seriously?
You’re going to back your argument with freaking Revelations?
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that those verses refer only to the prophecies in that specific book, and therefore shouldn’t be applied to the rest of the Bible, there are a coiple of things wrong with your argument:
1. The Bible has being edited, translated and retranslated so many times in the past couple of thousand years that it’s absurd to claim that one version is the true one. So the intructions in thos verses are pointless.
2. Revelations is the most symbolism laden book in the Bible. Trying to derive specific literal instructions from it is absurd.
You know, I’m pretty sure that when the guy who wrote Revelation said you “couldn’t change any of the words in this book,” he meant the specific book he was writing. Not, you know, the big assemblage of scripture that was put together centuries after he died, which his contribution happened to be a part of. (His contribution almost didn’t make it in.)
Also, no where in the canon scripture does it say you’re supposed to choose 66 writings and consider them the only inspired religious texts ever. That’s something folks decided later, on their own. As much as Protestants point their fingers at Catholics for idolatry, they do exactly that with the Bible itself.
You are wrong David.
we’re not different, we came first. everyone else is different
Except for those other pesky pre-Catholic Christian faiths, of course.
the first pope was peter disciple of christ, while there may be som as old, though i think they’re all dead, no one is older
Uhm… No.
no what?
Your statement is incorrect.
It would be very inaccurate to say that the Catholic Church as we know it today began with St. Peter. The idea of
Catholicism as a distinct Christian tradition came about as a result of the schism between the Pope in Rome and the
Patriarch of Constantinople in the 11th century. Before that, there was simply the single Christian church. Even
before that, though, there were various heretical and schismatic groups, some of which continue to exist today,
such as the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches. The history of Christianity is much more complex than most
Americans realize, being exposed only to Catholicism and various protestant denominations.
Um… I don’t quiiite understand what you’re saying here, but if you’re saying that there are no older religions than Catholicism, that is incorrect (although I can see the argument saying that since Peter was the first pope, and Catholicism developed out of that, then the Catholic church is the oldest Christian denomination).
Actually, I’m pretty sure Judaism has seniority over us.
i meant first in the christianity sense
The Orthadox churches might disagree with you there,
Strictly speaking, there were doctrinal splits that pre-date the Great Schism, such as, IIRC, oriental orthodoxy. Arguably, they’re “older” in that they have been in their present form for longer. I’d say that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are equally old, and that whatever first split off from that united front is the “oldest.”
The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the predominant Oriental Orthodox Christian church in Ethiopia.
They believe they have the Ark of the Covenant.
I was watching a documentary on them in which the basic conversation was “Oh, other Christians/historians have been looking for the Ark of the Covenant? But we’ve had it this whole time.”
“We have it stored in a crate in this giant warehouse…”
–Actually, that’s pretty cool.
Man, talk about Scientology. Amiright?
dang right!
I like gold DC8’s!
From all of these different churches im hearing about hear, I would have to guess there are as many different churches teaching about god in their own way as there are stars in the sky.
Every Christian has their own ideas about God, really. Denominations are just groups who agree on enough of the basics to worship together.
I see.
Actually, the same could be said about religions in general. I challenge you to find two Muslims of two Jews or two Hindus of two atheists(I’m lumping them in with the religious folks for the sake of discussion) with the exact same belief system.
with those gravatars i seems like mike is having an intense internal debate.
I know right? That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Kind of like Gollum/Smeagol
Hey! what are you guys doin in my head?
You know, I’m not one to complain about a comic that does such a thorough job of showcasing female characters, but it’s been six months. Where the fuck is Danny.
Here here.
Where?
Under here.
Joyce could do what my Granddad did. His father was Jewish. When they converted to Christianity Great Grandad said he could pic any church he wanted. Grandad shopped around and we’re all Methodists to this day because they had the best Basketball team.
It was a good choice regardless, we tend to be laid back (at least at the churches I’ve been to) and are known for having lots of diners and food based functions. Mmmmm… Food based functions…
Todays religions are tomorrows mythologies.
Hello, Zeus.
And yesterday’s cults.
I never quite got why some Protestants think Catholics are evil. We (and the Orthodoxies) are the originals, after all, and I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church now agrees with a fair amount of the 95 Theses. Maybe it has to do with all that newfangled liberation theology….
Well, it’s certainly not because of our giant catholic robot stockpile. Because we definitely don’t have one of those. Not under the vatican or anywhere.
Way to blow our cover, Jackalpants. Next you’ll tell them about our plan to team up with the Jews to take over the world, starting with the Supreme Court.
Read up a bit on the Reformation.
Most of it has to do with beliefs that are not substantiated by core biblical texts (i.e. purgatory/limbo) and the degree of ritual and mysticism (Papal authority, transubstantiation, etc).
Some, of course, take it a bit further.
Well as been said plenty of times already, different denominations tend to hate each other simply for the fact that they’re different. And in western religion, most of them at some point have gone mass murdering on each other over it.
Seems to me, that there was much more involved about sharing the cut with Rome, hence the initial split.
Emo Phililps on Baptist denominations:
I was in San Fransisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I’d try to stall and detain him, long enough for me to put the film in. I said, “Don’t jump!” and he turns… You’ve heard of the elephant man. He was kind of like that, he had a, well, you could say he had the head of a horse. And my heart went out to him. I said, “Why the long face?”
He said, “‘Cause all my life people have called me mean names like horses-head or Flicka or chess-piece or Trigger…”
I said, “Well, don’t worry about it, Ed. It can’t be that bad.”
He said, “My girlfriend’s suing me!”
I said, “For palomino?”
He said, “Why was I put on this Earth?”
I said, “My friend, anywhere else you wouldn’t stand a chance.”
He said, “Nobody loves me.”
I said, “God loves you, you silly ninny.”
He said, “How do you know there’s a God?”
I said, “Of course there’s a God. Do you think that billions of years ago a bunch of molecules floating around at random could someday have had the sense of humor to make you look like that?”
He said, “I do believe in God.”
I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?”
He said, “A Christian.”
I said, “Me too. Protestant or Catholic?”
He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! What franchise?”
He says, “Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”
I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over!
TL;DR
a txt version of an Emo Philips jokes is about as lame as trying to experience the taste of sirloin thru a fax copy, my friend……………….
Found it on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDmeqSzvIFs
That joke is as old as Protestantism.
Isn’t calling yourself the “Church of God” sort of a Pentecostal thing?
According to Wikipedia, sorta. It sounds like a common name that is used by various denominations, but often associated with Pentecostalism.
I was Catholic once, but then I went to Catholic school.
Oh god I know the feeling.
interesting discussion………..Paras vs. Provos, anyone? lol
The difference between Catholics and Protestants is really just mathematics. Protestants practice division. Catholics practice multiplication.
+1 for quote awesomeness.
Quote awesomeness? If you mean you’re going to quote me, I’m flattered! If. You mean I’m quoting something awesome, then no. I came up withthat on my own.
I saw what you did there.
“Choosing my Religion” is so apt.
Pick whichever variation makes you feel the most happy. All the others are wrong, of course.
What’s sad is I’ve met Christians (Me R Atheist) who for some reason claimed catholic =/= christian when all you need to count is to revere Christ as ‘the’ messiah, what divides them really are the various minutia of canon dogma, what is Christs relationship to god and the divine, is this or that ceremony meant to be literal or symbolic, etc, etc, picture gotten I’m sure. It’s just such a sticky issue I never quite got the need to try and claim Catholics don’t count as christian.
I agree with this in general. Your one condition for being a Christian could use tweaking though, since I’ve met Muslims who will happily recognize Jesus Christ as “The Messiah” but obviously do not agree with the idea that he is God, nor the son of God, nor a divine being to be worshipped or prayed to. Christians usually have a rather unique definition of “messiah” that others do not share.
Catholics, as a matter of doctrine, violate many explicit commands in scripture (verses regarding icons, idols, and not adding to or taking away from the Bible to name a few) that’s why many baptists and other denominations don’t consider them true Christians.
The most important stickler, being that they don’t believe Christ’s death and resurrection is sufficient for salvation. They add on many many more rules regulations and general works that must be followed at least to some degree. By the Bible’s own definition, that means they are not true followers of the faith.
Correction. That’s why denominations with a literalist, overly narrow interpretation of the Bible don’t consider them Christian. Your statement is only accurate under the assumption that the Biblical interpretation of said baptists and other denominations is the correct one.
And that is very much up for debate. The 1.2 billion Catholics and 300 million Orthodox for starters dispute that interpretation very much.
“…not adding to or taking away from the Bible to name a few”
Funny thing… there wasn’t such a thing as “The Bible” when that was written. Any modern Bible has been added to or taken away from since then. Every last one. They do not contain the whole of the Jewish scriptures that existed at that point, and they contain newer scriptures that did not yet exist. There is also evidence of editing in books that are included in every standard Christian Bible. This is hardly something of which Catholics are uniquely guilty.
shhhh, dont tell them that! you’ll take away our ability to laugh at their hypocrisy.
Also, Christ’s death and resurrection did redeem everyone of Original Sin, but that crap you did last week? Why don’t you come in and maybe say a few prayers to cover your bases.
I’ve had to correct a lot of people on that, not sure if there is some anti-catholic pamphlet that gets handed out or something.
See: Chick Tracts.
Especially because the Catholic view of needing to good works essentially equates to a ‘requirement’ to just be a good person by helping others. I’ve never understood why some people seem to miss that.
Yeah, I hear ya there! Had the weirdest moment when I saw a priest on a show once saying that Sweden used to be Lutheran but that these days they’re mostly Christian.
Say what? O_o
they should go to the church of wyld stallyns. the only two rules there are:
be excellent to each other
party on, dudes
I….I just don’t understand church. Aren’t they all for God? Why is there a specific “Church of God?” I kinda stopped researching this a long time ago. Went to church with a couple different friends to try it out and it creeped me out both times. ‘Course I was a youngin’ when that happened, and I was easily creeped out by stuff…
Yes, they’re all for God, but many of them think they’re the only real Church that God favors. Thus the near-endless permutations of “Church of God” and “Church of Christ”.
I’ve even seen one called “The True Jesus Church.” Google tells me it’s a Chinese import.
“Antidisestablishmentarianism.”
My second favourite word, after defenestration, another word created because of Christianity
It may be what I’ve done with Christianity, but what leads you to believe that Christianity was instrumental in creating the term?
_Waay_ too late to answer, but read up on the First and Second Defenestrations of Prague.
True story, I grew up in Bloomington, and my seventh-grade Sunday School teacher wrote *books* for Chick Publications. His first book was how rock music was evil, and his second on how Christian Contemporary music was evil.
I love my UU church. It’s big and pink and ancient and hosts the area LGBT prom. I usually attend the discussion forum before service where we discuss politics or religion or history(one regular attendee is a noted area historian). Then sometimes we get so caught up in the conversation we skip the service and head right over to the coffee shop to continue.
And yes, we had coffee and bagels at the orientation class, along with pita chips, veggies, and a very nice tatziki and 3 hummuses (hummi?).
Meh. Speaking as a Catholic, I’m not sure you should be angry at a fictional character, one of who’s defining characteristics at the moment is being a bit…ignorant, to put it mildly.
Far more offensive has been that I’ve found people who actually do have this kind of anti-Catholic feeling, and in at least one case, it’s a friend who refuses to explain the reason to me.
No man, we feed off their hatred. There is no hate like Protestant Catholic hate
Really? Sometimes it makes me feel like I want to punch someone in the FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE.
That’s the feeling of feeling alive!
Joyce doesn’t love me cause I’m a catholic ó_ó, my fictional life sucks
Please let her have a wake-up call soon. Please. Let her lose the biggest contest of her life or learn about all the pedophilia within the church or witness someone dying horribly right after having prayed or SOMETHING so she can stop being so insufferable.
I feel like Joyce learning about all the pedophilia within the church isn’t going to particularly disabuse her of any notions she’s expressing TODAY.
Why do you seem so angry towards Joyce. Its not exactly gonna change what David has in mind for the story. Not to mention you missed your chance to join the beefing competition on her weeks ago.
I’m not trying to influence the author (that clearly isn’t going to happen), and I don’t really mind that I’m posting this after other people have commented about how they also dislike her. I’m just venting how I feel about a character who’s basically dragging her atheist friend to church and then nitpicking about denominations in the manner of a five-year-old.
Do you honestly not find this character grating in the least?
I find her far more flexible toward other belief systems than the typical picture of the extreme believer. Combined with her being unnacustomed to this kind of social environment, I find her amusing rather than grating.
That Sierra smile…
And oh you, Joyce. The things you say.
I’ve come to the conclusion that Sierra is the present incarnation of Jesus.
And before you ask, the incarnation of God is Mike.
Does that make Dina the Holy Ghost then?
I thought she was Chuck Norris!
A parable from the Books of Bokonon seems appropriate here:
“I once knew an Episcopalian lady in Newport, Rhode Island, who asked me to design and build a doghouse for her Great Dane. The lady claimed to understand God and His Ways of Working perfectly. She could not understand why anyone should be puzzled about what had been or about what was going to be.
And yet, when I showed her a blueprint of the doghouse I proposed to build, she said to me, “I’m sorry, but I never could read one of those things.”
“Give it to your husband or your minister to pass on to God,” I said, “and, when God finds a minute, I’m sure he’ll explain this doghouse of mine in a way that even you can understand.”
She fired me. I shall never forget her. She believed that God liked people in sailboats much better than He liked people in motorboats. She could not bear to look at a worm. When she saw a worm, she screamed.
She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he can see what God is Doing.”
I read that book. I liked it but was annoyed by it but was confused by it but understood it all once I finished the story.
That’s Vonnegut for you.
This comic (and the discussion of it) sort-of highlights that there really is no single Christianity. Rather, there are a whole bunch of groups who all think they are the One True Faith (TM). Not that most other religions are any different. Makes me glad I’m an atheist.
You know atheism likely has hundreds of ways of interpretation as well. So, you know…
All atheism is in not believing in dieties. What’s there to interpret?
just like christianity and all other monotheistic religions are about believing in one god. Its the details that make the difference.
The thing is, all the details you speak of have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is about not believing in any gods. That’s as far as it goes – the only detail in question is, what’s a god? (It’s a reasonable question, and required to answer the question of whether you believe in one.) Beyond that, there’s nothing.
I hear you asking, ‘But what about believing in evolution, or in the Big Bang? Embracing secular humanism? Disbelieving in ghosts? Rejecting anti-gay bigotry? Aren’t those all parts of the atheist belief?” In a word, no. No more than your belief that a Smiling Mike avatar represents you better than a default avatar is a part of Christian belief. Not all beliefs are part of a given belief system – and it’s the system that gets to define which beliefs are part of it, not the peanut gallery. Atheism is clearly defined: not harboring any belief in gods. That’s it. There are no frills, no scriptures, no canon. You don’t have to believe anything else to be an atheist, and atheism doesn’t tell you to do anything or even to believe anything. It’s really just a description: Bob is tall, Bob is male, Bob is allergic to strawberries, Bob is an atheist.
Now, you might counter that most atheists you know share the beliefs listed above. In response to this: most atheists you know also accept the existence of gravity. As do most theists. This is not because we’re all Gravitians who are told by the GraviPope to believe in it; it’s because it’s a reasonable conclusion that people draw in the absence of anyone telling them not to believe it. And so most people believe it. I think you’ll find that most of the beliefs that you find common to atheists are similar.
First, I just really like drunk mike. He is my favorite character in the Walkyverse and as noone has ever made an avatar of him, I have made one. After going through the trouble I decided to start commenting on this site. So here I am.
Next, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_and_religion I’m not gonna say that it proves anything, but here is wiki. You could also say that Bob is just Bob, but there is more to Bob that makes him different from other Bobs’ like the stuff you gave about Bob above.
I’ll try and think up of some other stuff and I look forward to your response.
…that’s… that’s just a list of how various religions treat atheism. I’m not even sure how that’s relevant.
The entire page is not relevent no, but there are mention of sects of religions that are essentially atheism. I’m trying to show that there is not just one way of going about believing there is no god.
Let me rephrase that.
Just like christianity is about believing in god.
What I mean is your giving the most basic definition of what you believe. That is an unfair way of looking at things. Your comparing the largest blanket definition of what you believe against the far more detailed definitions of what the other groups believe.
You mean, Christianity is about believing in Thor? Who knew?
There’s LOTS more to Christianity than believing in god – and every variant of Christianity is wrapped up in its own large pile of related beliefs, even of not all of those beliefs are shared across denominations. Those collections of related beliefs are what makes all forms of Christianity belief systems. Atheism lacks such a collection, which is why it isn’t one.
There are many ways of believing in a single belief. Even if that is just believing there is no god. Thats why details are important. You can be just an Athiest like you can be just monotheistic. But you are also a “kind” of what you believe in.
Also, Thor is a part of polytheism silly.
Atheism doesn’t have “kinds” you either don’t believe or you do. That’s the end of it. Might be hard for a religious person to understand since you make your life about god. Atheism is different, your life isn’t about god’s non-existance, frankly atheism has no bearing on your life, at all.
But thats the thing. There actually are “kinds” of atheists. Some are actually sects of other religions too.
And I dont really make my life about god. I dont really like your assumption of my personality when I have not even given destinction to what I believe to you fellows. I am very loose on the whole god thing. It has never been a major part of my life.
To all the Christian parents out there,
Don’t worry about godless atheists causing your children to leave the faith. Worry about the other Christians, even the nice, non-judgmental ones. All it takes is a little exposure to other versions of the church to get your children to start worrying about finding the true Christian faith, and who knows where that will lead. Just look at Jeremiah Bannister.
It’ll be neat when The One True Christ shows up. Then he can tell us whether it’s the first or second time he’s done so and the Jews and Christians can all get properly in sync.
If God’s been paying attention to the internet, He shall arrive on a dinosaur so we’ll all know it’s Him.
They would still argue over something. It’s an inate trait in humans. Especially nowadays.
How about Orthodox? I wonder how might Joyce react to the First Christian Denomination made by romans (except Arianism and Catholics).
Too lazy to read all the posts, but judging by what I’ve seen, people have given their views, so I’ll share mine on religion:
Religion is far, far older than civilization (and probably modern humans); the oldest known deliberate ritual burials date from ~90,000 BC. You do not ceremonially bury someone with grave goods if you don’t believe that they’re going to be used by the dead person in an afterlife.
And cave bear cults were common throughout Asia and Europe for tens of thousands of years, judging by the amount of evidence from them, and is probably the longest running “religion” in history. The Venus fertility figures also range almost as old, the oldest being 35-40,000 years old.
As far as the ‘one true religion’, it would therefore be the first religion to ever come about (the ‘true’ religion would be the original one, wouldn’t it?), which would most likely be something based in animism or -possibly- shamanism.
The fact is, we just don’t know, and possibly never will know, what the first religion was. Christianity is just another in a long, long history of belief in a supernatural or divine beings, and in truth deserves no special preference. The only reason it’s so huge now is because it was the religion of most of the world explorers and conquerors (aka Europeans) that drew the map of the world we know today.
Had Tamberlane and other Mongol military leaders not so devastated the Middle East during the Middle Ages, it’s possible that Christianity wouldn’t be as big as it is today, but that’s a topic for an entirely different discussion.
“As far as the ‘one true religion’, it would therefore be the first religion to ever come about (the ‘true’ religion would be the original one, wouldn’t it?), which would most likely be something based in animism or -possibly- shamanism.”
Two problems with that (if we suppose there can be truth in religion). It assumes that we started with divine knowledge and somehow lost it, which is the opposite of how collective human knowledge usually works. Prehistoric understanding of physics isn’t the “one true science” after all. If there is any truth to be known in religion, then that knowledge can be improved over time.
It also ignores the concept of divine revelation, which is the cornerstone of every religion I can think of. Supposing there is a divine being, and it suddenly appeared to you and said “here I am” then whatever you believed before would be false, regardless of whether it was the first human religion or not.
Where older surviving religions and sects have a problem with newer ones has nothing to do with age or chronological order on its own, since most of them acknowledge a turning point somewhere in history when we went from being ignorant of The Truth to having knowledge of it. Most make no claims to be the first. Rather, once you have the “right” answer through divine revelation, changing it around would be “wrong” for obvious reasons.
“Where older surviving religions and sects have a problem with newer ones has nothing to do with age or chronological order on its own, since most of them acknowledge a turning point somewhere in history when we went from being ignorant of The Truth to having knowledge of it. Most make no claims to be the first. Rather, once you have the “right” answer through divine revelation, changing it around would be “wrong” for obvious reasons.”
And what makes this “right” answer the correct one? How do we know the revealer of the word wasn’t a schizophrenic who heard voices and just got lucky? We can’t know, and I refuse to subscribe to it, or any religion, because of that. If a loving god is willing to let those who choose to find their own way burn in a lake of fire when they die, even if they were otherwise saint-worthy, then to hell with that god. If I’m not worthy in a god’s eyes because I choose to be human and live my own life, then that god is not worth my praise or time.
We don’t know. What I’m suggesting is that a one true religion would necessarily have to be actually true, and that there is no logical reason to suppose older rantings are any truer than newer ones unless you’ve already chosen a religion. That being the case, there is no reason to assume the first religion is the true one.
I really do wish the punchline wasn’t “Joyce, whose really religious, thinks Catholics are weird and over the top.” It offended me to the point where I’m writing a comment just to say something and feel better. I know I might get comments defending the punchline, but that won’t really change how I feel now.
When I was a kid, my family went to a church that would have been kissing snakes had there been any in northern Canada. This weird and way over the top church believed that Catholics were just plain wrong, and therefore influenced by the devil. Feel free to be offended.
After my family left that church and went back to the normal Pentecostal one (when my mother unwittingly planted the seeds of my atheism by warning me to beware of churches that turn into cults), I was allowed to mingle with all the others (even though they were wrong and influenced by the devil) and had three close friends in high school, two Pentecostals and one Catholic.
Last time I went home for Christmas, which was the first time I did since deciding I couldn’t be Christian anymore, my Catholic friend showed up and we had a great time. My Pentecostal friends didn’t return my calls, and their presents are still waiting for them at my parents’ house over a year later. Just sayin’.
With Signs following?
She’s heard it’s contagious.
Actually, she has a sort of point here. About the churches I mean. I was raised Catholic, but every Catholic church I’ve attended since I’ve lived away from home has been very different. The pastor and community(as community is a big part of the Church in general) make a big difference.