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Oh thank goodness this isn’t just me, though it isn’t most of the people I interact with (outside my head).
I have found my people. This is surprising.
in the comments section of a webcomic. … This, is entirely expected.
Well, that’s not been my experience – because usually that only happens in my dreams, and then I literally lose sleep over it – but your mileage may vary.
They’re like the NPCs who give you side quests in other games. Except in Animal Crossing there is no main quest, it’s all sidequest, you just chill out in a pretty town picking fruit or digging fossils or whatever. It’s very calming.
Kay, Joe, we’re learning, that’s a good thing. Now let’s dispel that notion that you need to have…lists of random trivia you know about women just kind of hanging around in your brain-RAM? That’s kind of fucking bizarre and dehumanizing? How about don’t do that.
You know what, let’s learn to start asking questions. Holding a conversation. You’ve gotten a reasonable start here, even if it’s still about that fucking list, let’s…use this as a jumping off point.
Sort of? I mean, I’m sure a lot of people use list filing systems for their social interaction data: “Allergic to peanuts, likes cats, dislikes spiders”
It’s more the intentional direct application of this information instead of just having it handy that’s the issue
Fair. But phrased as in panel 2, it’s just…eurgh. No, no, don’t do that and why would it even occur to you to have that be a thing you WOULD do, Joe, honestly. It’s the difference between internal monologue: “Oh hey, there’s Joyce, she’s religious and probably went to church this morning, I should ask her how that went”
and internal monologue:
“Joyce Brown
-18 years old
-Christian fundie
-Sweater vests
-Triangle smiles
-Shower germaphobe
-Picky eater
-Best friend Becky (lesbian)
-Aspires to be a wife and mother”
Eh, some people organize their thoughts like that though. I’d argue that the “Sarah’s the 23rd most common girl name of x birth year; I’m more likely to run into a Mary or Patricia” kind of trivia is weirder than remembering that Joyce likes sweater vests and is a picky eater. At least that’s personal and goes towards actually developing a relationship with someone?
It’s weird for the same reason Dorothy’s spreadsheets were weird–the way you present something matters, and organizing things you know about someone into easily-rattled-off bullet points is frankly unsettling.
Dorothy was certainly guilty of poor presentation, and I’d certainly feel very self-conscious if someone around me was writing things into a spreadsheet based on everything I said and did. But the spreadsheets themselves were an excellent endeavor. They’d obviously run into limitations, but as a simple organizing tool to keep everyone’s likes and dislikes and priorities in mind, I was all in favor of it. Dorothy just had to do it in a way that kept people comfortable around her.
Yeah, absolutely. I’m not arguing that Joe’s intentions in memorizing these details for women wasn’t incredibly creepy.
It’s the general “memorizing trivia about people is bizarre and creepy” thing that I’m not about, because… well, how else are you supposed to remember people? I’ll concede it’s very clinical to organize it in a list, but it’s also easier to remember information that way. Really, what matters is what you intend to do with that information more than just having that information.
To me what’s clinical is saying he can rattle off that memorized trivia in a bullet point list. I think it’d feel dehumanizing. Saying ‘Your name is Amber and I remember you talking a lot about Animal Crossing’ is one thing, but saying ‘Amber: Animal crossing, ninja turtles, mario, and pokemon’ sounds kinda creepy.
Am I the only person who wishes someone would remember me like that? Like, a mostly-stranger I’ve barely interacted with remembering me as “[Liliet], short, teaches children English, reads fantasy, draws” or something like that. Just… knowing I’m reflected in other people’s eyes, I guess, that they do notice things about me and they stick around in their memory without giving them any deeper thought (beacuse… haha… why would they invite deeper thought? it’s not like any of that is WEIRD, right? it’s just a thing that can be accepted at face value??? :>)
@liliet, same, I honestly have no problem with people making a list like that. I personally find it easier to remember things that way, than through full on sentences.
The biggest problem with Joes list is he published it. Keeping a list to boost your abilities to be a good social person seems creepy but I think is actually a fair tool. The fact that he was using the list for sex makes it feel worse than I want my coworkers/clients to feel like I care about them so I will use the study tools to enhance my social abilities. Also you should limit what you put down in writing simply because if by some fluke someone else read your list you don’t want it to be legitimately damaging to the people on your list.
Not only did he publish it, but he handed it out to everyone ever, with RSS updates as events transpired, with the stated intention that he was using it to sex everyone up, hooray, and zero thought to how that would impact his sex-targets.
That’s entirely different from “likes drawing”, you know? I might like people to know that I enjoy drawing so that we can have a fun conversation about inktober. I would not like people to know what some ignorant jackass thinks regarding my boobs.
Except even if he hadn’t published his list, what you just described isn’t at all what Joe was using it for. It was scouting intelligence for sexual conquests.
What you’re describing is what Dorothy was doing with her spreadsheet. Still a bit creepy, but the intention behind it was fine. It would’ve been wiser if she’d kept its existence a secret, especially with people like Mary and Mike wandering about.
The biggest problem with Joe’s list wasn’t that he shared it, although yes, that was a pretty big problem. The biggest problem was the attitude towards women that it revealed. If Joe had kept the list to himself, he still would’ve had the problem where he wasn’t viewing women as people.
Why he was looking for all those personal details he put in the list matters more than whether there was an actual list at all.
If Joe had been doing that (short of sharing the list with others, obviously) to make up for poor social skills, or because that’s just how he approaches everything, I wouldn’t have any problem with it.
Shiro, I have no idea how much experience you have with neurodiversity, but please do not tell Joe, or anyone else, how they are allowed to organize their brain.
Knowing things about people is not intrinsically problematic, nor are any of the data structures you might keep this information in.
100% of your problems with Joe should be about his womanizing – not any of the completely normal things he does to facilitate that.
Hana, I’m with you on this. The organization of the information is not problematic. What may or may not be done with said information could be problematic, but that is an altogether different matter.
Information ethics is a thing, just like neurodiversity
It’s nice to see that how I organize data is actually okay. Still feel like I should rethink mentioning traits about people like that, though, since it seems to unnerve a sizeable portion of people in this chat alone.
yeah, it’s really easy to go wrong with that. heck, a friend of mine, who has been making my birthday cake for years, managed to mention my cake preferences in a *really* creepy way once. I just wish I could’ve explained what made it feel creepy so he could’ve learnt from it :/
I was going to make a joke about Amber talking to AC characters but all of my ideas, on reflection, are very depressing. So…*shrugs* Joe’s making a little progress though, so yay?
Also my favorite is Goldie but my current favorite resident of my own town is Rosie. (Isabelle is the Nightcrawler; she’s everyone’s favorite so she doesn’t count.)
That’s the saddest part about Amber. She doesn’t even like talking to the villagers, out of fear that they’ll judge her and leave her town, and can’t bear the thought of having to talk to somebody who will form a lasting impression of her. The only characters she’ll talk to are the random passers-by, the ones she knows come and go for a brief appearance or make a constant, seasonal visit without interruption. Her only constant companion is Isabelle, whom Amber knows can never leave her, but even Isabelle fears that Amber has withdrawn from her, as the closer Amber gets to Isabelle, the greater her fear of disappointing Isabelle becomes.
See I just headcanon that she says “characters” because she’s carefully including non-villager animals like the ones who run the shops (and also that Sable is her favourite).
Joe, women hate insecurity and uncertainty in men. You’re just making things worse. Confidence is why you were so successful even though you were a jerk. Maintain confidence, but stop being a jerk.
Especially for Joe right now, fearfully refusing to admit uncertainty is the LAST thing he should do. Because he absolutely should not be feeling certain right now. He’s got a lot to unlearn and relearn, and faking confidence would only get in the way of that.
Not to mention that his admitting to his uncertainty and showing his insecurity are probably why this conversation isn’t over already.
There is a confidence in feeling like you can talk to anybody, and Joe had that. The question is, can he rebuild himself without the creep factor, while keeping the confidence, and learning to read when to talk to people v. shutting up? (Contrast Jacob who seems to talk to anybody and people like it.)
That, like many things Joe’s working on, is a long-term project.
Agreed that admitted uncertainty helps open things up so people can learn this is a new Joe (or “becoming a new Joe”). Don’t tell, don’t lead with “I’m a changed man”, but show it.
because I mean to my knowledge women strongly prefer men capable of admitting weakness and open to being wrong about something, men who listen and correct themselves
Yup, like fuck, we’ve just been through a 15 year period of brooding self-loathing vampires as ultra-popular sex symbols, but somehow guys still believe the brash over-confident manipulators PUAs say women love is what the universal hivemind of girl drools over.
Well, the women may like the brooding self-loathing vampires once they get to know them, but the brash over-confident manipulators have the advantage of actually going up and talking to the women, which helps.
No, dude. Take it from me. I was an overconfident guy with no public insecurities, and nobody liked me. Then I went full-pendulum with acknowledging my insecurities and imperfections and now only almost nobody likes me.
I think that “short and gets to the point” is a good summary for Amber but only when you aer both in a playful/sassy mood and are able to tease each other. Otherwise it’s: “Sad girl who wants to help people but refuses to believe she can be helped in turn.”
Let’s all agree that, if Amber goes out with her ex-boyfriend Danny’s best friend Joe, Ethan and Danny’s pact of “let’s not get together even though we really want to so that Amber doesn’t hate us both” is cancelled.
Why am I reasoning like a bad sitcom.
I’m just getting a feeling that they’re both quite down and could use a lap to watch cartoons on, to build up the courage to go to a shrink and break their usual patterns. But I shouldn’t wish people get together based on their level of sadness.
oh no they are so cute together
and kind of perfect
Amber just doesn’t think well enough of Joe to do her self-loathing routine, and Joe’s too consumed with his own issues to so much as notice hers.
I also love Joe noting things he now knows. HE’S LEARNING <3
A lot of comments are saying this is cute and I don’t get why. I don’t find this interaction anywhere near ‘cute’. Seeing as Amber isn’t particularly enjoying it.
Amber doesn’t enjoy much of anything these days. It’s “cute” because Amber is making an effort to carry on a conversation instead or withdrawing. (Plus, she only says something self-deprecating twice in five panels.)
It’s also cute because they’re willing to engage with one another on each other’s level. Everyone else, although well meaning, are insisting that Amber and Joe engage with others on levels they are either afraid of or don’t know how to get to.
Panel 1: I feel this gets to the mythology Amber tried to create around herself. And I mean specifically the Amber alter. The fear that she is a monster so trying desperately to become the afterthought in everyone’s lives, the nerd who hides in her room. Never actually known so no one could see how “broken” she was.
And I can feel that because I feel I did a similar thing in freshman year, hiding away, avoiding most social interactions, focusing on online connections instead, and always a little worried about my “brokeness” becoming too apparent.
And it’s why she’s panicking now. In the mythology she’s feeling now, she feels exposed. Feels laid bare as the crazy monster no one could possibly think well of and thus assumes everyone approaching her is coming from that perspective. But it’s hard for that alter to hold that when no one but Mike is reinforcing that. Not that that will stop her from trying.
Also, I’m fascinated that we’ve yet to see the AG alter yet. Is it because she understands that she could really do some bad damage if she reinforces the idea that Amber is a monster who needs to keep silenced? Is it because Amber is repressing her because she doesn’t feel like she deserves to have a hero alter? Or is it AG once again running from a difficult situation and leaving Amber to clean up the mess?
Panel 2: I love this moment from Joe because it gets to something about apologies and personal growth that is often very hard for folks. And that’s decoupling the pride of the self and just shutting up and listening.
Like, a lot of times when say a cis man has fucked up with sexism, the urge is to overcompensate, make huge claims of feminism to make it up and make long-winded overtures on how they’ve changed that ignores the substance of what was problematic.
And we’ve seen that from Joe before. Retaining the behaviors that were creepy because he’s desperate to be reformed and done. It was a huge reason his interaction with Sarah was so awful.
But here? He recognizes his own bad tendency, silences it before it really gets going, recognizes the behavior itself is flawed, and recenters the other person in the conversation.
It’s the steps he needs to do to actually grow and improve here and that’s beautiful. And it’s even more beautiful because the toxic masculinity he has been consumed by loathes this type of humility, seeing it as openly emasculating.
Not being the center of the conversation, admitting you were wrong in a behavior, letting a mere woman creature be centered? Toxic masculinity rages at that idea, making believe that all Joe needs to do is be confident and smooth and PUA harder and make it all about himself.
So he’s doing something that his own brain is telling him makes him less of a man and makes him vulnerable (something he is terrified of) because he’s recognizing it’s the right thing for him to do to grow as a human being.
And that. That is all the happy making in the world to see.
Panel 3: Depression brain is good at fixations like this. That Amber is reduced to “crazy stabby girl” and nothing else and that’s all anyone else would see as if the context of her being in a life or death situation with a rapist promising physical harm wasn’t there.
But the specificity bothers me. Like “crazy stabby girl” is the exact phrase she circles back to over and over and it makes me wonder if that’s a nickname her father gave her after she stabbed Sal as a kid. Using it to weave a narrative that she was a broken mess he needed to “shape up”.
Panels 4-5: I was all smiles after this, because, wow what a growth moment for Joe. Like, the self-awareness to make the automatic joke he thought would help defuse the situation a little, but then immediately recognize the potential messed-up connotations of the joke. And not only that but to follow it up with checking in with the other person and centering them? That’s beautiful.
And on top of that, he’s growing on his “women are people” thing, stating it here as “seeing people and people” cause a) yes and b) yes, because he’s also had difficulty fully allowing men to be full people as well.
Like, his interactions with Danny and Jacob and even himself have betrayed that he’s been locked in a toxic masculinity that demands a very specific type of idea of what makes a man and what is useful in a man all in service of hoping it would get him laid and thus let him believe he was “succeeding in masculinity”.
And it’s lead him to treat men in as dehumanized ways as he’s treated women, both avoiding and hurting Danny because he saw him as emblematic of what wasn’t masculine. And also treating Jacob as a tool to perform masculinity with and “demonstrate his value” to the ladies in PUA fashion leading to a somewhat strained for Jacob relationship there where Jacob had to apologize for Joe to his friends and loved ones.
Like, there’s so much to hope for here that Joe is actually getting and internalizing the messages he needs to to make real growth and it’s largely working. Amber, like Sarah, is probably the worst person he could have picked to interact with given how much she resents him and resents that her mother is dating his father.
And yet, he’s defusing the conversation well and building a good rapport even if it is somewhat strained and is providing some company that Amber likely needs right now as she tailspins into her downward spiral.
Like it’s not flawless, but it’s hopeful for the future of both these characters and that makes me happy because I like seeing folks grow and improve for the better, conquering their demons (it’s part of why I love being a middle school teacher).
Seconded, on both counts.
And now that you mention it, I’m reminded of the old line about how slavery is demeaning to both oppressor and owned… both are victims (though, of course, not equally) of the fucked-up system.
I have long thought that, if Joe told Amber exactly how Danny was ‘coping’ her response would be: “I’m sorry, I have to go and do something; someone needs my help.” She’d then rush out of the room, pulling Amazi-Girl’s mask out of her back pocket as the opening bars of John Williams ‘Superman’ theme play.
He’s… exploring new hobbies and trying new things, and forming an identity with more depth than being Someone’s Boyfriend.
Danny is coping very well.
Plus, I think Amber would find the hat and ukulele adorable. If anything, she’d (wrongly) see it as confirmation that he is better off without her, when in truth he’s just better off not being in ANY relationship right now. It’s what he should’ve done after Dorothy broke up with him.
Okay, I’m getting lots of positive vibes from this interaction. (Well, there’s a lot of negative stuff at the root of it, but the positive is there in the sense that the negatives are being addressed and overcome.)
That said…. the “let’s ask how this can all go wrong” part of my brain is wondering if Joe might be in danger here.
Amber is potentially dangerous. I’m saying that because she has a history of violently lashing out in emotional rage with knives. In one case it was justified…. unless the violence was excessive, which is a bit of a subjective call and we don’t have the details, but Amber thinks it was. In the other, it definitely wasn’t justified and definitely was excessive. But in both cases, her target was someone who arguably (and in Ryan’s case, definitely) deserved to be a target of that violence. Sal didn’t, but in the moment it probably felt to Amber like she did.
Right now, Amber’s in a state where she’s DEFINING herself as violent and dangerous and a menace. She’s going so far as to ignore all the people trying to ground her in reality. And she’s even said that she enjoys it and that she doesn’t need AG to restrain her any more.
I’m wondering if, combining her new self image (and her desire to push back against everyone who is trying to convince her it’s wrong), the golden-girl model of AG’s vigilantism, and Joe’s status as someone who “deserves” it (because of the do list)…
… might Joe be a potential target of violence?
I’m not saying this is likely. My gut says it isn’t. But… paranoia, I guess.
“she has a history of violently lashing out in emotional rage with knives”
Even with the subsequent caveats, I strongly disagree with this characterization. The first time, she did in fact lash out violently because she was overwhelmed by her rage, even if her shit dad helped stroke that rage.
But she didn’t attack Ryan in anger as she did with Sal. She may have attempted to KILL him due to uncontrolled rage (which we don’t really know), but it’s not the same except on superficial levels. She was already in a deadly struggle by that point, and had every reason to be angry.
Amber ACTUALLY has a history of is explosive outbursts of anger. THAT is something we’ve seen happen repeatedly. We’ve also frequently seen her use violence, but rarely do we see both at once. She is deathly afraid that those outbursts will inevitably become violent, despite how we’ve seen her catch herself without it coming to that.
Lashing out against people over minor, petty irritants is not something we’ve seen from her. Unless Joe’s character arc takes a sharp downturn, or it turns out he ALSO held a knife to Ethan’s throat when they were kids, Joe will be fine.
Amber is not the danger to others that she believes herself to be
Oh, is it the CDC (character development corner) of the cafeteria? Anyone else wanna have lunch in that desolate place where broken souls learn how to be human again? :p
Out of random curiosity- what’s the generally accepted etiquette for things you got as gifts, once you’ve broken up with someone? Particularly in regards to clothing and accessories and the like?
I think it would depend on the circumstances. Clothing, etc., sure keep it, or get rid of it if it has bad memories, maybe not give it back to the giver, however, as BBCC said. If the gift was a treasured family heirloom, however, I would give it back.
gifts are supposed to be (or at least considered) freely given, so it’s pretty much always inappropriate to ask for them back.
returning a gift yourself is… sort of a big “fuck you” to the other person, afaik. If one didn’t want the gift any more because of sad memories or something, quietly getting rid of it would be more appropriate.
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Amber: Moly mrap, mer malking moo mee.
BABY GO GET ME A BUG
“You TALK to them?? I just clock Maple in the head with a shovel b/c she took a rare Gyroid I was gonna mail my ACTUAL friend”
…
“shit, wait, did that come across as gloating I have a friend, sry”
Short and gets to the point. Like a phone.
Do phone jokes still cut it?
People still make nickel jokes, I’m not going to give any ground
Just look sharp, mkay?
Phone jokes will leave a permanent scar on this comic
Y’all just as bad as Joe. XD
I love them? This is really cute.
I’m kind of relating to both of them in this particular comic.
I feel called out by the last panel.
i talk to the characters in stories i partially write.
I make mental AIs of people and chat with them constantly in my head.
Is that not normal? I have full on conversations with people in my head, and then they stop liking me in my head and I avoid them in real life.
Oh thank goodness this isn’t just me, though it isn’t most of the people I interact with (outside my head).
I have found my people. This is surprising.
in the comments section of a webcomic. … This, is entirely expected.
Well, that’s not been my experience – because usually that only happens in my dreams, and then I literally lose sleep over it – but your mileage may vary.
my anxiety makes me do that to excess at times – but in moderation (and without the certain-doom bias) it can be a useful tool.
Same here! I thought that was just me – but it explains the mental AIs of people I don’t know-must be on the same server…
Joe is being awesome today, I approve
Not until the end of November. Then Amber won’t talk to anyone.
November won’t be for another year or so in-universe.
But she’ll make an Aussie account to get the app early.
Set honesty to “on.”
i try not to lie because i am to lazy to try to remember all the lies i say.
Alt text, I’m TOTALLY enjoying it.
Same, it’s an interaction I didn’t know I needed until now.
Same. Though I worry about the implied “because…” at the end of the alt text.
Far more than I would have expected, tbh
Ditto.
Why, yes I am enjoying it, alt-text. Thank you.
Are the characters in Animal Crossing people? I’ve never played that game so…
they’re all chibi furries. animal-people.
And Amber is Isabelle, if Isabelle had a violent alter ego.
They’re like the NPCs who give you side quests in other games. Except in Animal Crossing there is no main quest, it’s all sidequest, you just chill out in a pretty town picking fruit or digging fossils or whatever. It’s very calming.
There’s a horror Let’s Play for that!
Er, eventual gore and body horror warning if you click that, btw, but it’s cartoony-style if that makes a difference.
*plays Skid Row’s “I Remember You” on the hacked Muzak after Run-DMC finishes…*
…..
*deep breath*
Kay, Joe, we’re learning, that’s a good thing. Now let’s dispel that notion that you need to have…lists of random trivia you know about women just kind of hanging around in your brain-RAM? That’s kind of fucking bizarre and dehumanizing? How about don’t do that.
You know what, let’s learn to start asking questions. Holding a conversation. You’ve gotten a reasonable start here, even if it’s still about that fucking list, let’s…use this as a jumping off point.
Sort of? I mean, I’m sure a lot of people use list filing systems for their social interaction data: “Allergic to peanuts, likes cats, dislikes spiders”
It’s more the intentional direct application of this information instead of just having it handy that’s the issue
Fair. But phrased as in panel 2, it’s just…eurgh. No, no, don’t do that and why would it even occur to you to have that be a thing you WOULD do, Joe, honestly. It’s the difference between internal monologue: “Oh hey, there’s Joyce, she’s religious and probably went to church this morning, I should ask her how that went”
and internal monologue:
“Joyce Brown
-18 years old
-Christian fundie
-Sweater vests
-Triangle smiles
-Shower germaphobe
-Picky eater
-Best friend Becky (lesbian)
-Aspires to be a wife and mother”
etc
Eh, some people organize their thoughts like that though. I’d argue that the “Sarah’s the 23rd most common girl name of x birth year; I’m more likely to run into a Mary or Patricia” kind of trivia is weirder than remembering that Joyce likes sweater vests and is a picky eater. At least that’s personal and goes towards actually developing a relationship with someone?
It’s weird for the same reason Dorothy’s spreadsheets were weird–the way you present something matters, and organizing things you know about someone into easily-rattled-off bullet points is frankly unsettling.
Dorothy was certainly guilty of poor presentation, and I’d certainly feel very self-conscious if someone around me was writing things into a spreadsheet based on everything I said and did. But the spreadsheets themselves were an excellent endeavor. They’d obviously run into limitations, but as a simple organizing tool to keep everyone’s likes and dislikes and priorities in mind, I was all in favor of it. Dorothy just had to do it in a way that kept people comfortable around her.
Oh, it’s fine to do that to organize. In that case, the problem WAS showing it to people….and yes, whipping it out at one point to win an argument.
No no no – spreadsheets aren’t suited for that kind of endeavor at all. You need a relationship map for that.
With colored string?
That would be one thing, but Joe was kinda deliberately compiling personal details about women he barely knows to put in his creepy list.
Yeah, absolutely. I’m not arguing that Joe’s intentions in memorizing these details for women wasn’t incredibly creepy.
It’s the general “memorizing trivia about people is bizarre and creepy” thing that I’m not about, because… well, how else are you supposed to remember people? I’ll concede it’s very clinical to organize it in a list, but it’s also easier to remember information that way. Really, what matters is what you intend to do with that information more than just having that information.
To me what’s clinical is saying he can rattle off that memorized trivia in a bullet point list. I think it’d feel dehumanizing. Saying ‘Your name is Amber and I remember you talking a lot about Animal Crossing’ is one thing, but saying ‘Amber: Animal crossing, ninja turtles, mario, and pokemon’ sounds kinda creepy.
Am I the only person who wishes someone would remember me like that? Like, a mostly-stranger I’ve barely interacted with remembering me as “[Liliet], short, teaches children English, reads fantasy, draws” or something like that. Just… knowing I’m reflected in other people’s eyes, I guess, that they do notice things about me and they stick around in their memory without giving them any deeper thought (beacuse… haha… why would they invite deeper thought? it’s not like any of that is WEIRD, right? it’s just a thing that can be accepted at face value??? :>)
@liliet, same, I honestly have no problem with people making a list like that. I personally find it easier to remember things that way, than through full on sentences.
The biggest problem with Joes list is he published it. Keeping a list to boost your abilities to be a good social person seems creepy but I think is actually a fair tool. The fact that he was using the list for sex makes it feel worse than I want my coworkers/clients to feel like I care about them so I will use the study tools to enhance my social abilities. Also you should limit what you put down in writing simply because if by some fluke someone else read your list you don’t want it to be legitimately damaging to the people on your list.
Not only did he publish it, but he handed it out to everyone ever, with RSS updates as events transpired, with the stated intention that he was using it to sex everyone up, hooray, and zero thought to how that would impact his sex-targets.
That’s entirely different from “likes drawing”, you know? I might like people to know that I enjoy drawing so that we can have a fun conversation about inktober. I would not like people to know what some ignorant jackass thinks regarding my boobs.
I think your boobs are great!
….
um, well informed jackass?
Except even if he hadn’t published his list, what you just described isn’t at all what Joe was using it for. It was scouting intelligence for sexual conquests.
What you’re describing is what Dorothy was doing with her spreadsheet. Still a bit creepy, but the intention behind it was fine. It would’ve been wiser if she’d kept its existence a secret, especially with people like Mary and Mike wandering about.
The biggest problem with Joe’s list wasn’t that he shared it, although yes, that was a pretty big problem. The biggest problem was the attitude towards women that it revealed. If Joe had kept the list to himself, he still would’ve had the problem where he wasn’t viewing women as people.
Why he was looking for all those personal details he put in the list matters more than whether there was an actual list at all.
If Joe had been doing that (short of sharing the list with others, obviously) to make up for poor social skills, or because that’s just how he approaches everything, I wouldn’t have any problem with it.
Shiro, I have no idea how much experience you have with neurodiversity, but please do not tell Joe, or anyone else, how they are allowed to organize their brain.
Knowing things about people is not intrinsically problematic, nor are any of the data structures you might keep this information in.
100% of your problems with Joe should be about his womanizing – not any of the completely normal things he does to facilitate that.
Hana, I’m with you on this. The organization of the information is not problematic. What may or may not be done with said information could be problematic, but that is an altogether different matter.
Information ethics is a thing, just like neurodiversity
It’s nice to see that how I organize data is actually okay. Still feel like I should rethink mentioning traits about people like that, though, since it seems to unnerve a sizeable portion of people in this chat alone.
yeah, it’s really easy to go wrong with that. heck, a friend of mine, who has been making my birthday cake for years, managed to mention my cake preferences in a *really* creepy way once. I just wish I could’ve explained what made it feel creepy so he could’ve learnt from it :/
“You know what, let’s learn to start asking questions”
ehhhh, that can be done in a creepy invasive way too.
Hah, get it, because Amber’s short and she got to the point (of a knife) a few in-comic days ago…
…what do you mean, “that’s the joke”?
Amber should replace the decals on her door with this poster.
Dina would disagree, Amber.
But then Dina is a walking dinosaur furry (although I don’t get why she doesn’t use more fluffy down on her costumes).
Well. it IS mid-October, in comic. These characters NEED to start thinking about their Halloween costumes.
By which I mean… Willis? You need to draw all the characters in Halloween costumes. GET ON THAT.
Most of the people I talk to are Pokemon NPCs. I can relate.
Not gonna lie, people who talk to all the NPCs in a game, even the ones they don’t need to, are one of my favorite types.
well what if they are an important one but in a way thats not related to a quest? you never know.
I talk to every NPC possible. Like miados says, you never know when they’ll give you an item or something sweet.
I play games the same way. I talk to everybody possible. Also I take everything not nailed down. You should see my Fallout 4 inventory.
I enjoy when my curiosity and completionist tendencies are rewarded with amusing, unique dialogue.
Or items. Items are good too.
I was going to make a joke about Amber talking to AC characters but all of my ideas, on reflection, are very depressing. So…*shrugs* Joe’s making a little progress though, so yay?
He’s becoming self-aware, catching himself. Baby steps for people-person Joe.
And they’re not even technically people!
The awkwardness is thick enough that you can cut it with a knife. Or perhaps with a phone.
JOE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT???
JOE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT
Well-matched avatar.
K, I’m shipping these two.
I am enjoying this quality Amber/Joe paneltime.
Everybody likes talking to Isabella so it’s fine.
… This is cute.
Also my favorite is Goldie but my current favorite resident of my own town is Rosie. (Isabelle is the Nightcrawler; she’s everyone’s favorite so she doesn’t count.)
I like Tom. Not Nook, but the rocker cat – he’s the coolest.
Me, too, Amber.
They’re called villagers.
That’s the saddest part about Amber. She doesn’t even like talking to the villagers, out of fear that they’ll judge her and leave her town, and can’t bear the thought of having to talk to somebody who will form a lasting impression of her. The only characters she’ll talk to are the random passers-by, the ones she knows come and go for a brief appearance or make a constant, seasonal visit without interruption. Her only constant companion is Isabelle, whom Amber knows can never leave her, but even Isabelle fears that Amber has withdrawn from her, as the closer Amber gets to Isabelle, the greater her fear of disappointing Isabelle becomes.
See I just headcanon that she says “characters” because she’s carefully including non-villager animals like the ones who run the shops (and also that Sable is her favourite).
I am, actually! Thank you for asking, captions.
Perfectly timed comic, given the app coming in a month. Unless you’re Australian or impatient.
What app?
Oh, the Animal Crossing phone game app.
I am excited for this app even though it means I’ll never leave my apartment again.
Yeah likewise. It’s the main thing occupying my mind nowadays.
Joe, women hate insecurity and uncertainty in men. You’re just making things worse. Confidence is why you were so successful even though you were a jerk. Maintain confidence, but stop being a jerk.
Lol, no. By his own admission, he was not anywhere nearly as successful as he claimed.
And there’s nothing wrong with insecurity, or uncertainty. It’s when people try to overcompensate for them that they get into trouble.
Especially for Joe right now, fearfully refusing to admit uncertainty is the LAST thing he should do. Because he absolutely should not be feeling certain right now. He’s got a lot to unlearn and relearn, and faking confidence would only get in the way of that.
Not to mention that his admitting to his uncertainty and showing his insecurity are probably why this conversation isn’t over already.
There is a confidence in feeling like you can talk to anybody, and Joe had that. The question is, can he rebuild himself without the creep factor, while keeping the confidence, and learning to read when to talk to people v. shutting up? (Contrast Jacob who seems to talk to anybody and people like it.)
That, like many things Joe’s working on, is a long-term project.
Agreed that admitted uncertainty helps open things up so people can learn this is a new Joe (or “becoming a new Joe”). Don’t tell, don’t lead with “I’m a changed man”, but show it.
…
are you a collective women-mind-reader?
because I mean to my knowledge women strongly prefer men capable of admitting weakness and open to being wrong about something, men who listen and correct themselves
not… Joes
Yup, like fuck, we’ve just been through a 15 year period of brooding self-loathing vampires as ultra-popular sex symbols, but somehow guys still believe the brash over-confident manipulators PUAs say women love is what the universal hivemind of girl drools over.
Well, the women may like the brooding self-loathing vampires once they get to know them, but the brash over-confident manipulators have the advantage of actually going up and talking to the women, which helps.
Maybe there’s a middle ground there somewhere.
Here’s a song parody about old-school vampires and new-school vampires.
No reflection (vampire joke!) on your comment, it’s just funny. And it passed my wife’s test, and she read all the books.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1glNuQiE77E
Your universal survey of What Women Like apparently missed some women. Like every woman I know. It’s a simple equation: Confidence + certainty = jerk.
No, dude. Take it from me. I was an overconfident guy with no public insecurities, and nobody liked me. Then I went full-pendulum with acknowledging my insecurities and imperfections and now only almost nobody likes me.
Dina and Joe: “Teach us how to talk to people.”
Amber: “Leave me alone!”
i lol’d
“In the land of the blind”…
Well, that’s ONE way of talking to (at) people…
God bless him he’s trying
OH NO I AM TOO CHARMED BY JOE
Joe reminds me of Zuko in this instant. Zuko is the best
“Stabby” does, indeed, get to the point.
I think that “short and gets to the point” is a good summary for Amber but only when you aer both in a playful/sassy mood and are able to tease each other. Otherwise it’s: “Sad girl who wants to help people but refuses to believe she can be helped in turn.”
I notice a lot of people ask Amber for advice on talking to people…
Amber is better at socializing than she gives herself credit. Especially compared to a lot of the cast.
Somebody’s excited for Animal Crossing: Pocket Camp I see…
Hum.
Let’s all agree that, if Amber goes out with her ex-boyfriend Danny’s best friend Joe, Ethan and Danny’s pact of “let’s not get together even though we really want to so that Amber doesn’t hate us both” is cancelled.
Why am I reasoning like a bad sitcom.
I’m just getting a feeling that they’re both quite down and could use a lap to watch cartoons on, to build up the courage to go to a shrink and break their usual patterns. But I shouldn’t wish people get together based on their level of sadness.
Heh, I know that feel, Amber.
Look, they cared about me back when I didn’t have real friends, k?
I *am* enjoying this quality Joe/Amber panel time, thank you very much
Say what you will about Joe, but it looks like he’s genuinely sorry for his actions and trying to be a better person.
oh no they are so cute together
and kind of perfect
Amber just doesn’t think well enough of Joe to do her self-loathing routine, and Joe’s too consumed with his own issues to so much as notice hers.
I also love Joe noting things he now knows. HE’S LEARNING <3
“Joe and Amber are cute and perfect together”…. is an interesting viewpoint.
It’s less scary than Mike and Amber.
Willis stahp. I’m getting dangerously close to shipping this.
A lot of comments are saying this is cute and I don’t get why. I don’t find this interaction anywhere near ‘cute’. Seeing as Amber isn’t particularly enjoying it.
Amber doesn’t enjoy much of anything these days. It’s “cute” because Amber is making an effort to carry on a conversation instead or withdrawing. (Plus, she only says something self-deprecating twice in five panels.)
It’s also cute because they’re willing to engage with one another on each other’s level. Everyone else, although well meaning, are insisting that Amber and Joe engage with others on levels they are either afraid of or don’t know how to get to.
Comic Reactions:
*happy smile*
Panel 1: I feel this gets to the mythology Amber tried to create around herself. And I mean specifically the Amber alter. The fear that she is a monster so trying desperately to become the afterthought in everyone’s lives, the nerd who hides in her room. Never actually known so no one could see how “broken” she was.
And I can feel that because I feel I did a similar thing in freshman year, hiding away, avoiding most social interactions, focusing on online connections instead, and always a little worried about my “brokeness” becoming too apparent.
And it’s why she’s panicking now. In the mythology she’s feeling now, she feels exposed. Feels laid bare as the crazy monster no one could possibly think well of and thus assumes everyone approaching her is coming from that perspective. But it’s hard for that alter to hold that when no one but Mike is reinforcing that. Not that that will stop her from trying.
Also, I’m fascinated that we’ve yet to see the AG alter yet. Is it because she understands that she could really do some bad damage if she reinforces the idea that Amber is a monster who needs to keep silenced? Is it because Amber is repressing her because she doesn’t feel like she deserves to have a hero alter? Or is it AG once again running from a difficult situation and leaving Amber to clean up the mess?
Panel 2: I love this moment from Joe because it gets to something about apologies and personal growth that is often very hard for folks. And that’s decoupling the pride of the self and just shutting up and listening.
Like, a lot of times when say a cis man has fucked up with sexism, the urge is to overcompensate, make huge claims of feminism to make it up and make long-winded overtures on how they’ve changed that ignores the substance of what was problematic.
And we’ve seen that from Joe before. Retaining the behaviors that were creepy because he’s desperate to be reformed and done. It was a huge reason his interaction with Sarah was so awful.
But here? He recognizes his own bad tendency, silences it before it really gets going, recognizes the behavior itself is flawed, and recenters the other person in the conversation.
It’s the steps he needs to do to actually grow and improve here and that’s beautiful. And it’s even more beautiful because the toxic masculinity he has been consumed by loathes this type of humility, seeing it as openly emasculating.
Not being the center of the conversation, admitting you were wrong in a behavior, letting a mere woman creature be centered? Toxic masculinity rages at that idea, making believe that all Joe needs to do is be confident and smooth and PUA harder and make it all about himself.
So he’s doing something that his own brain is telling him makes him less of a man and makes him vulnerable (something he is terrified of) because he’s recognizing it’s the right thing for him to do to grow as a human being.
And that. That is all the happy making in the world to see.
Panel 3: Depression brain is good at fixations like this. That Amber is reduced to “crazy stabby girl” and nothing else and that’s all anyone else would see as if the context of her being in a life or death situation with a rapist promising physical harm wasn’t there.
But the specificity bothers me. Like “crazy stabby girl” is the exact phrase she circles back to over and over and it makes me wonder if that’s a nickname her father gave her after she stabbed Sal as a kid. Using it to weave a narrative that she was a broken mess he needed to “shape up”.
Panels 4-5: I was all smiles after this, because, wow what a growth moment for Joe. Like, the self-awareness to make the automatic joke he thought would help defuse the situation a little, but then immediately recognize the potential messed-up connotations of the joke. And not only that but to follow it up with checking in with the other person and centering them? That’s beautiful.
And on top of that, he’s growing on his “women are people” thing, stating it here as “seeing people and people” cause a) yes and b) yes, because he’s also had difficulty fully allowing men to be full people as well.
Like, his interactions with Danny and Jacob and even himself have betrayed that he’s been locked in a toxic masculinity that demands a very specific type of idea of what makes a man and what is useful in a man all in service of hoping it would get him laid and thus let him believe he was “succeeding in masculinity”.
And it’s lead him to treat men in as dehumanized ways as he’s treated women, both avoiding and hurting Danny because he saw him as emblematic of what wasn’t masculine. And also treating Jacob as a tool to perform masculinity with and “demonstrate his value” to the ladies in PUA fashion leading to a somewhat strained for Jacob relationship there where Jacob had to apologize for Joe to his friends and loved ones.
Like, there’s so much to hope for here that Joe is actually getting and internalizing the messages he needs to to make real growth and it’s largely working. Amber, like Sarah, is probably the worst person he could have picked to interact with given how much she resents him and resents that her mother is dating his father.
And yet, he’s defusing the conversation well and building a good rapport even if it is somewhat strained and is providing some company that Amber likely needs right now as she tailspins into her downward spiral.
Like it’s not flawless, but it’s hopeful for the future of both these characters and that makes me happy because I like seeing folks grow and improve for the better, conquering their demons (it’s part of why I love being a middle school teacher).
So good luck Joe and Amber. I believe in you.
I hadn’t noticed that subtlety about “seeing people as people” vs. “seeing women as people”. This is why I love reading your commentary.
It’s such a positive move, because it shows that the lesson is starting to sink in and that the problem is bigger than just how women see him.
Seconded, on both counts.
And now that you mention it, I’m reminded of the old line about how slavery is demeaning to both oppressor and owned… both are victims (though, of course, not equally) of the fucked-up system.
I totally didn’t notice that either
Amber: “How is Danny?”
Joe: “He’s a new man. He obviously misses you, but realizes you need your self-time, and he does too.”
Amber: “What’s he doing with himself?”
Joe: “He’s got a dapper blue cap and developed some skill on the ukulele.”
Amber: “Nooooooo!!!!!”
I have long thought that, if Joe told Amber exactly how Danny was ‘coping’ her response would be: “I’m sorry, I have to go and do something; someone needs my help.” She’d then rush out of the room, pulling Amazi-Girl’s mask out of her back pocket as the opening bars of John Williams ‘Superman’ theme play.
Wait, if Danny’s in distress, how can he provide Amazi-Girl’s incidental music at the same time?
He’s… exploring new hobbies and trying new things, and forming an identity with more depth than being Someone’s Boyfriend.
Danny is coping very well.
Plus, I think Amber would find the hat and ukulele adorable. If anything, she’d (wrongly) see it as confirmation that he is better off without her, when in truth he’s just better off not being in ANY relationship right now. It’s what he should’ve done after Dorothy broke up with him.
You said that about Danny’s self-development better than I did. Another time I wish could edit things.
Either that, if she didn’t find it adorable, it would be “Oh god look what I drove him to. I’m a monster.”
I love this so much.
Okay, I’m getting lots of positive vibes from this interaction. (Well, there’s a lot of negative stuff at the root of it, but the positive is there in the sense that the negatives are being addressed and overcome.)
That said…. the “let’s ask how this can all go wrong” part of my brain is wondering if Joe might be in danger here.
Amber is potentially dangerous. I’m saying that because she has a history of violently lashing out in emotional rage with knives. In one case it was justified…. unless the violence was excessive, which is a bit of a subjective call and we don’t have the details, but Amber thinks it was. In the other, it definitely wasn’t justified and definitely was excessive. But in both cases, her target was someone who arguably (and in Ryan’s case, definitely) deserved to be a target of that violence. Sal didn’t, but in the moment it probably felt to Amber like she did.
Right now, Amber’s in a state where she’s DEFINING herself as violent and dangerous and a menace. She’s going so far as to ignore all the people trying to ground her in reality. And she’s even said that she enjoys it and that she doesn’t need AG to restrain her any more.
I’m wondering if, combining her new self image (and her desire to push back against everyone who is trying to convince her it’s wrong), the golden-girl model of AG’s vigilantism, and Joe’s status as someone who “deserves” it (because of the do list)…
… might Joe be a potential target of violence?
I’m not saying this is likely. My gut says it isn’t. But… paranoia, I guess.
Paranoia. A specific kind of paranoia…. I can’t find the words. :/
“she has a history of violently lashing out in emotional rage with knives”
Even with the subsequent caveats, I strongly disagree with this characterization. The first time, she did in fact lash out violently because she was overwhelmed by her rage, even if her shit dad helped stroke that rage.
But she didn’t attack Ryan in anger as she did with Sal. She may have attempted to KILL him due to uncontrolled rage (which we don’t really know), but it’s not the same except on superficial levels. She was already in a deadly struggle by that point, and had every reason to be angry.
Amber ACTUALLY has a history of is explosive outbursts of anger. THAT is something we’ve seen happen repeatedly. We’ve also frequently seen her use violence, but rarely do we see both at once. She is deathly afraid that those outbursts will inevitably become violent, despite how we’ve seen her catch herself without it coming to that.
Lashing out against people over minor, petty irritants is not something we’ve seen from her. Unless Joe’s character arc takes a sharp downturn, or it turns out he ALSO held a knife to Ethan’s throat when they were kids, Joe will be fine.
Amber is not the danger to others that she believes herself to be
I mean she did kinda lash out at Ethan that one time, but that was an exception.
“Of course I remember you! You’re Danny’s creepy Dorothy-replacement clone.”
Oh, is it the CDC (character development corner) of the cafeteria? Anyone else wanna have lunch in that desolate place where broken souls learn how to be human again? :p
Where it’s drafty, the lights flicker, and the floor is uneven?
Out of random curiosity- what’s the generally accepted etiquette for things you got as gifts, once you’ve broken up with someone? Particularly in regards to clothing and accessories and the like?
The subject happened to come up, is all, and I got curious.
I think it’s okay to keep gifts if you’re comfortable doing that. It’s one thing to return their things to them but gifts were bought for you.
I think it would depend on the circumstances. Clothing, etc., sure keep it, or get rid of it if it has bad memories, maybe not give it back to the giver, however, as BBCC said. If the gift was a treasured family heirloom, however, I would give it back.
Oops, I meant as Inahc said.
gifts are supposed to be (or at least considered) freely given, so it’s pretty much always inappropriate to ask for them back.
returning a gift yourself is… sort of a big “fuck you” to the other person, afaik. If one didn’t want the gift any more because of sad memories or something, quietly getting rid of it would be more appropriate.