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He’s definitely becoming a better person, unfortunately he’s only on Day 3 or so of his redemption. This kind of moral conundrum is at least a 300 level course
Compounded by the ‘save’ option, will he take it? Leaving the world (or at least Joyce) to the ministrations of the Faz? Or will he break previous behavior again and refuse Malaya to uphold his accepted responsibility for the psuedo-kid bro?
Honestly, Joyce has been pretty not great recently what with her whole “trying to break up an established relationship purely for her own selfish reasons with no regard for the people involved’s feelings or wishes” thing.
Kinda of hard to be open and honest about how great someone who paid someone else to punch you repeatedly in the face is. I think Joyce and Joyce alone earned her Zero Minus
Someone wrote that 1800s China had a superiority complex, and couldn’t acknowledge Western technology less their self-image be threatened, while Japan just knew it was inherently superior, and could thus borrow from the West with impunity.
I have no idea if that’s an accurate way of describing the actual countries, but the idea of the distinction itself stuck with me. “I MUST be superior I MUST la la la can’t see you” vs. “Of course I’m superior, ooh nice stuff you have, let me take it to be even better.”
I’m not sure which Faz would be. Insufficient data under stress. I suspect more “complex” and he just hasn’t been written as paying properly for it.
Billie is definitely ‘complex’, but may be learning. Sal seems to be mostly “no, I am just that cool, whatevs”.
I always got the vibe that Sal doesn’t want to be cool she just doesn’t want to be put in other people’s boxes, she wants to do her. Like with the Rainbow Road and the maths. The fact that most people see that as cool and make a new box for her is probably annoying.
Considering China knew about paper for more than thousand years before Europe got along to it (stuff like wheelbarrows were there also quite early), they had just failed to update their ideas about the western world regularlily.
They once had good reasons to concider the western wold technologically backwards.
I don’t think you can say the same about Faz.
Sal is learning from other people if she thinks they actually know more. You might have to prove that, though, as she’s not going to trust in you saying so. That has nothing to do with being cool, but a lot with self-preservation and learning that few people can be trusted.
Joe hasn’t embraced his geekiness in this continuity and started collecting toy robots, so tragically he has nothing to throw at Joyce’s head and must suffer in silence.
Nah, Walky threw a toy from a show that he loved. The choice of toy is very important. It’s like how penguins will search for just the right pebble to present to a potential mate.
Can’t just chuck any old Transformer at a girl’s head, your message will be muddied. An Optimus, Megatron, or Bumblebee is classic, but also somewhat predictable. Starscream is a decidedly tsundere gesture. Beast-era toys can work, but only if you’re okay with her showing up at your place with in a fursuit. Ultra Magnus is fine to indicate a casual, professional affection. Tailgate or Rewind is a declaration of true love.
You could always throw a Shockwave, but…you know. Only if she a freak.
You know, this reminds me how, “Yeah, yer abso-freakin’ right, Marcie, ah DO hate that we’ve somehow befriended Malaya” is still one of my favorite lines in the comic.
“Abso-freakin'” reminds me of Babylon 5. Remember that, from the 90s? In the end, Londo repented for his crimes, but he still had to face the consequences of them. In this universe, that instrument of fate is Malaya. You know what they say; karma’s a drum.
Monday’s hovertext literally said, ”on my way to steal your dude you don’t care for”? Way I see it, it’s kind of clearly indicating Malaya’s intentions to “steal” Joe from Sal, with a bit of snark added about how Sal doesn’t actually care about Joe.
I doubt it. Or at least, not nearly as far back as you’d expect. He’s putting in effort to keep an eye on Faz. I could see him flirting with Malaya or getting her number, but he’s not gonna dump Faz on Joyce and go off to bonetown.
I think he might if it got him an excuse to not talk about his feelings with Joyce. He’ll probably come back for Faz soon enough but Malaya is offering him a lot more than a date with a pretty girl. She’s giving him an ‘out’.
It would be kind of amusing if he dumps Faz on Joyce. And then Joyce has to pass him on to someone else and so on. Amber finally wakes up and Sierra’s got him.
I was referring to him being a jackass. I’m worried he’s going to go back to being more douchey. Not like, ‘List 2.0’ or anything but still a step back.
Yeah, he might. It’s kinda his defense mechanism against anything feelings-related, because he’s emotionally not mature enough to deal with stuff like that, so he acts like an idiot. Plus his parent’s divorce has probably given him some issues.
It takes a long time to undo a reflex that carefully constructed. Even more so when you see it as your only defense against vulnerabilities you do not want to admit to.
See most people who’ve undergone trauma and responding “I’m fine” to things.
Exactly. Malaya is offering him an ‘out’ and (god forbid) possibly a ‘see, a pretty girl doesn’t think my being a douche was a big deal, maybe it wasn’t that bad?’
Joe’s Zero rating of her, and her (correct) suggestion that it was because she had hurt him. She also asked him before what it had been before that, and he evaded the question, and there was that date they went on.
I think there are still some complicated feelings there, to say the least. I don’t think she’s so much upset with him as knowing he’s not being entirely forthcoming.
Huh, I thought that Joe gave her that rating because she became too important for him and gave her the worst rating to shield her from others
I forgot that she hurt him
I’m not sure “upsetting” is the right word? I think BBCC’s reply to Mad_Academic below really nails this interaction. Joe likes to pretend he isn’t invested in Joyce, and Joyce is here recognizing and confronting him on what a lie that is. It’s a tense, fraught conversation because this is the kind of conversation Joe has traditionally refused to have — plus it’s occurring in the context of an argument about Sarah, which has already put Joyce on the defensive.
Joe likes to act like he’s not that emotionally invested, especially in Joyce. Joyce has been trying to nudge a feelings conversation out of him for a while, particularly regarding the way they interact with each other. This is another time she’s trying that.
As for last page, she’s connecting ‘You believe that (I can land Jacob). Here she’s explaining her reasoning (that if she were incapable of landing Jacob, Je would have no reason to worry Sarah would succeed in breaking up Jacob and Raidah. Ergo, he believes she is capable).
Yup, plus she had also asked him what her rating was before the “Zero”, after she correctly suggested that he had changed it after she had hurt him, which she was surprisingly NOT dismissive of, so I think she doesn’t blame the disaster that was their date entirely on him anymore.
I think, whether or not she’s aware of it, that she wants to know what Joe really thinks of her.
Does anyone else find Joyce’s logic kind of twisted? Even if Joyce didn’t have a chance of succeeding, Joe should still have stepped in, because it’s a terrible example of behaviour that needed to be stopped.
Of course, Joyce still doesn’t think what she’s doing is wrong, so she has to justify why Joe would ‘step in’.
She probably doesn’t get how against homewrecking Joe is, since if you didn’t know that about him, it’d be easy to think he wouldn’t care.
While how she got there is missing the whole picture, she does seem to correctly see that his Zero rating of her is obviously not his honest assessment.
She’s still taking the wrong message from the confrontation though. It should be ‘I shouldn’t be trying to break them up, and Sarah doesn’t even have my best interests at heart here’.
Instead, it’s ‘Joe you think of me as a HUMAN BEING.’.
I mean, I feel like he both has a rather high opinion of joyce and ALSO the zero rating was an honest assessment because holy shit punching someone in the face for being a really bad date is extremely fucked up.
She does seem to at least get that much, thankfully, since she acknowledged in a past comment that she had hurt Joe, and I don’t think she was meaning strictly physically, after she found out about the zero rating.
The date was before she knew Dorothy wasn’t chaste, someone she has pretty solid respect for, and other challenges to her world view, along with Roz’s party and other stuff like that, so I think she may have realized that she wasn’t treating Joe like much of a person, either, but the Future Husband ideal that he obviously flew in the face of. (That, too, has changed over time, like finding out the male role models in her life weren’t as “perfect” as she thought they were, with Hank swearing and not having the best relationship with her mom, and Toe Dad Ross being a shit)
I feel like that’s a big symptom of the worldview she was given by her upbringing where lying, deception, or destroying positive relationships are all justified in saving one to the right religion or relationship.
She’s missing the point on why what she’s doing is messed up and doing so so impressively she’s accidentally stumbled into a truth Joe had no idea was noticeable about himself.
Well, Joyce is also fiercely defensive of the people she knows and cares about. Which is great, but it also means she has huge blind spots in regards to other people’s wellbeing.
She doesn’t know anything about Jacob and Raidah’s relationship, but she automatically assumes Jacob and Sarah would be better because Sarah is her friend.
True, though I don’t think it helps that in their interactions in the past, Raidah’s been a shitheel to her, even before Jacob was in the picture. I think she was also present for Raidah mean-girling Dina with her friends.
Joyce wasn’t present for that; Raidah put on a pleasant face when she met Joyce, so Joyce was pretty surprised when Sarah showed up all upset with Raidah(I’d link, but I’m on my phone right now).
I can see her believing Joe wouldn’t step in if he didn’t feel like they could succeed – Joe seems more like the kind of guy who would let it blow up in their face and then say ‘Yeah, no duh, that was a boneheaded thing to do’.
Seriously, like just because you don’t believe someone is capable of accomplishing a stupid and immoral thing they’re trying to do doesn’t mean they somehow aren’t gonna be affected by the consequences of attempting it regardless of if they succeed or not.
i mean I’m pretty cool with this development but i’m still reaaaaally waiting on Joyce to actually have a moment of, yknow, introspection on her actions.
It will happen. It took her a long time before realizing that she was homophobic, and more time to realize that half of her family are bigots. Just a few years more and maybe she will accept a compatible theory of evolution and god, like the DC universe.
Comic Reactions: It’s always interesting when other characters see Joyce’s lack of experience with secular norms and culture and general naivety to common touchstones and forget that she’s actually highly analytical and thoughtful in her own way.
She’s got a lot of cobwebs to borrow the Becky phrasing and she’s got various hangups and is completely out of the loop on a lot of stuff, especially sexual and dating culture, but she’s nonetheless a brilliant analytical person who can be brutal at tugging on an inconsistency.
And I think here we see Joe caught out in this underestimation and not for the first time. Which makes sense, not only does he view her as naive for not knowing as much about sexual terminology as he has developed faking his sex-god persona, but he’s been in the role of being an emotional supporter over the phone.
Which is why we see his panic here. He likely was not expecting her to catch on to his own interest and growing feelings for her and is definitely in no way prepared to deal with actually being in a position of vulnerability with a girl where he has feelings that can be hurt and where he can be rejected in a way that matters to him*.
*And yes, it says a lot about the socialization of dudes like Joe that hurting other people through sexual harassment matters a lot less than feeling sad because someone they were interested in shot them down.
What’s also sad here is how little Joyce values herself. Seeing her as incomprehensible to imagine being wanted by someone she deems unattainably “hot” even though they have demonstrated strong chemistry together and a very positive interaction style that has lead to inadvertent flirting.
I’m also worried about the intrusion of Malaya. Otherworld Malaya, pre-relationship with Ultra Car was known for terrible dating decisions and there’s enough in the last panel to make one worry that this is a carrying over of that (though if she kneels him in the balls instead, I might join Carla and Marcie in rooting heavily for her).
The reason being if she does offer a bad connection choice instead, Faz will only see that continuing his spiral into PUA hell and creepiness is superficially successful which is the exact opposite message he needs right now. It’s also the last thing Joe needs in a moment of genuine vulnerability.
If Malaya ends up telling him what’s what (I know Joyce already did, but hearing it from more than one person can’t hurt) I will figure out a way to enter comics just so I can give her cookies and beer.
Maybe, but I don’t see any indication that’s coming. Both what she said to the others before and her actions now seem to be actual intent to come on to Joe – even if it’s mostly motivated by one-upping Sal (on something Sal cares nothing about, of course.)
Maybe I’m underestimating her or misreading something, but I can’t see it.
And yeah, not the example Faz needs, though not as bad as if it had been Old Joe making the first move on Malaya.
Another facet of it, that I think Joe catches on to, is that Joyce takes a leaf from HIS book. Jacob is a ten. Only a ten (or possibly a nine+), could ever have a chance with him, because clearly personal chemistry is a one dimensional measurement of hotness. All those soft smiles and common jokes and feeling secure in his strong, warm arms and her heart going pitter patter and what she so far has denied she saw in Jacob’s eyes as well, can clearly be reduced to how hot they are.
Just in the moment he begins to distance himself from that toxic thinking, JOYCE – too pure for this sinful world Joyce – begins spouting the same bullshit. I think there is an aspect of him fearing that he drags her down with him, similar to here http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/wooingarts/
And of course, what makes it extra hard for Joe is that he DOES have the Hotz for Joyce, and deep down he ISN’T convinced his ratings are bullshit, so on one level this is confirmation he would be better without.
Ouch, yeah, Faz is taking all the wrong lessons from this.
“deep down he ISN’T convinced his ratings are bullshit”
To be fair, you don’t live most of your life with a very particular system/ruleset and then just change that over a few days. It’s going to take Joe quite a while to fully break away from that.
And everyone treating him like shit for it really isn’t going to help.
Yup, they are both stuck in such a toxic system and it’s preventing both of them fully being present with their feelings and handling them in a positive way.
What on Earth has Joe done to Malaya to deserve being viciously assaulted in your eyes? Or anyone for that matter? Yeah, he’s a gross jackass but that hardly warrants subjecting him to an extremely painful physical injury.
He made the list and put it somewhere that it could get leaked.
…. that probably doesn’t DESERVE violent battery in the tender regions, in the sense that very few things actually deserve violent battery, but it might still provoke it.
Joe’s fictional. For a lot of people, wishing violence or death on fictional characters doesn’t bother them. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched Game of Thrones and was just waiting for a character I hated to die, but irl I would not be capable of wanting someone to die.
Yeah *sigh*. Pretty much anything Malaya is about to do here (and it’s probably hit on him) is going to be bad for his recovery from his toxic worldview.
Joe doesn’t have to think Joyce can land Jacob to want her to stop trying to interfere in the relationship.
He could simply feel that her attempts might be found out and all kinds of drama would ensue.
Of course, he does think Joyce has a chance. She’s right about that. I’m just saying the logic isn’t ironclad. It wasn’t an either or possibility.
English is not my native language so nope, I wasn’t aware of that. I thought the term you’re referring to is “rutting”, though. Is “rooting” an alternative spelling of that? (Genuinely asking here, btw.)
Probably not, because the usage is quite different.
* “Rooting” is used almost exclusively for human sex.
* We never speak of an animal being “in root” the way you might speak of an animal being “in rut”.
* As a noun “rut” is a season and “root” is a person considered in their aspect as an partner for sex (“John is a good root”).
* “Rut” is not used as a transitive verb.
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeen
He’s begging Joyce, don’t take Raidah’s man
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeen
He’s begging her, because he knows she can.
He knows that Joyce’s beyond compare
With eyes that blue and brunette hair
and an ivory smile that spans a mile wide
She thinks that she’s a frumpy nerd
But with Jacob, she’d get the final word
and Joe can’t quite voice what’s deep inside
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeeen
He’s begging Joyce, don’t take Raidah’s man
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeeen
He’s begging her, because he knows she CAN.
So… Despite everything, is it wrong to ship Joe and Joyce? Like, they’ve both got their issues, and they’re a long way from being able to work as a couple…
But, maybe Joyce got a low score because Joe was lying to himself?
I kinda ship them. Like, at the least, I find their friendship very interesting and very dynamic.
I also think it’s kinda surprising that Joyce didn’t write Joe off as being full of shit when he outed Sarah’s plan, first assuming he was just wrong, then picking up that he’s NOT lying about the plan because he’s lying about his assessment of her, which is intriguing. It does imply she trusts him more than Joe might expect.
There is a bond forming between them and, yes, I do think that Joe is trying to work out if he’s jealous of Joyce falling for Jacob or if he’s just being over-protective.
Interesting to see what happens here, almost like a devil (temptation) on one shoulder and angel (redemption) on the other
Joes turned down flirting females before because he thought he could get something better so hopefully his ego will step up and make the right decision
Of course she has a chance, there’s no reason she wouldn’t. Why not? And why would Joe have a problem saying that?
But it’s not at all the point. Jacob is already seeing someone, and he doesn’t deserve to have that broken up… no matter who it is.
If his relationship fails, it should be on its own terms, not from someone else interfering. I’ve been in that… it’s not fun, and wrecks havoc on you, especially if you’re in the Raidah position.
I mean, Joe is super into Joyce, isn’t he? He can’t really admit it or anything, I don’t think, but it’s fairly obvious. He acted as her emotional support when she went home for the weekend with Becky, which is really out of character for him, since he knows he can’t leverage it for sex. When the list came out, and Joyce pointed out that even though she was the only Zero, she couldn’t have always been because Joe asked her out, and asked what her original number was, Joe ran out of there like a bat out of hell because he couldn’t deal with being honest with her about it. And on the topic of the list, Joyce was the one that was finally able to get him to fully understand how fucked what he did actually was.
I suspect that some portion of Joe’s objection the plan to break up Jacob and Raidah is that Joe — heretofore unbeknownst to Joe — is interested in Joyce himself. He probably only now is clueing in that he likes her, but he was definitely impressed when she showed up for their date looking adorable in that yellow dress and when she asked him what she was before she was a zero-minus, he literally bolted and ran away.
I think at least part of it is a misdirection to avoid the big issues of Big-Sis-Is-Using-Me-To-Do-Something-Shitty, I-Am-Doing-Something-Shitty and Uh-Oh-Maybe-Those-Innocent-Fantasies-About-Jacob-Weren’t-Quite-So-Innocent-After-All-I’m-Crushing-On-Him-Pretty-Bad-Wait-What-If-All-Those-Adorable-Shared-Moments-We-Had-Means-He-Might-Perhaps-Possibly-Have-Some-Feelings-For-ME-In-Return-Beat-Still-My-Heart-Don’t-Think-Of-His-Strong-Sweaty-Arms-Carrying-Me-To-Safety-Or-How-Good-He-Smelled-Even-If-I-Was-Kinda-Barfy-God-No-You-Thought-About-It-Why-Did-You-Think-About-it-So-What-If-I-Was-Thinking-Of-It-It’s-No-Sin-Right?-Right??-He-Is-A-Good-Christian-We-Could-Marry-And-Have-A-Million-Children-and-lots-of-sex-IN-A-VERY-PLATONIC-WAY-I’M-SURE-And-Live-Happy-Ever-After-Oh-God-I’m-Still-Thinking-Of-It-Joe-Was-Right-How-Annoying-Quick-Snap-At-Joe
So, what’s the big deal exactly? Why is Joe reluctant to say to Joice that “Yes, you can land Jacob” What reason is stopping him from being blunt about that? I mean, after having told her Sarah’s plan, that she has a chance with Jacob seems like a soft info to deliver, by comparison.
Firstly, Joe thinks what Sarah is doing is shitty and he doesn’t want to encourage Joyce when she’s clearly crushing on Jacob. Secondly, I rather think that he’s either developing a crush of his own on Joyce or he has a protective elder brother mindset towards her and he isn’t about to encourage her to romance anyone!
Why does Joyce think Joe thinks she’s either unattractive or otherwise not worthy of Jacob? They’re friends right? Like how does Joyce think Joe thinks so low of her?
(To be fair, she obviously gets that her score reflects Joe being in a snit about their date rather than his true feelings, but she still wants him to spit it out. After all, she has MASSIVE hangups about relationships, so it’s pretty given that she is unsure how other sees her)
But later she said she was the only woman he had rated based on who she was right? Like if she believes the rating is based on her personality and she believes joe thinks she’s a zero in that respect why tf are they friends?
Because they have grown since Joyce punched Joe because he was being a creep. They became friends through mutual understanding and bonding over parents who are fighting. Plus Joyce opening up and showing Joe that she trusts him. Enough to tell him about Gashface.
More I think that her rating wasn’t based on her looks, but on her (and Mike’s) punching of him. She wasn’t objectified by him – in that rating at least.
I don’t think it has so much to do with looks, as with her neurosises and hung-ups. She forced herself to eat her buttered noodles with the meatballs on top because she wanted to be more normal for Jacob and the girl she tries setting Jacob up with, Sarah, is pre-law, just like raidah and jacob himself and she could very well feel that her education choice is below his academic level and therefore dont match up. At least thats my take to why she feels she’s below him
Mad and highly-unlikely possibility: Joyce sees that Malaya is making Joe uncomfortable so she decides to run interference for him. The way she chooses to do this is to introduce herself as Joe’s girlfriend and then kiss him passionately. Complications ensue.
Well in reality I think Joe would be a bit stunned in this situation, like going off with someone is not how he thought this situation would end so it would be nice to see Joyce look out for Joe
But as you say its a Mad and highly-unlikely possibility
Joe shouldn’t have to open up if he doesn’t want to. He’s not ready. Maybe he won’t be ready for a long time. Solution is to see a therapist, like most characters here should be doing.
Joyce, I’d have more sympathy for you here if your attempt to get validation from Joe isn’t so you can serve as a person who is trying to break up a couple. In which case, no, I don’t think Joe has any obligation to help you build your courage up.
I don’t think this is an indication that Joe has “feelings” for Joyce. I think it’s an indication of him actually recognizing, on some level, that his ratings are kind of bullshit and in no way correlate to who has a chance with whom – at least in this particular case.
What really surprises me here is that this is a surprise for Joyce. GIRL YOU ARE PRETTY AND GREAT WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THAT HEAD OF YOURS
Totes OT but this is my only online space where I am out soo…
Got correctly gendered in the airport yesterday. Three times. Was even wearing makeup because business trip while in the US and closeted so. Only thing different was my hair and I did not know hair made such a huge difference in how people gender you. Am totally gonna use that style again cuz I finally found a masc style that seems to work for me.
Oh yeah, hair makes so much difference in my experience too. More people have been talking to me in masculine language since I got a shorter haircut. Not sure how I feel about it, because I am non-binary and I don’t really see myself as masculine. It also makes me kind of nervous because I too am closeted, and am used to pretending like I pass as a female person, when I don’t really.
Joyce has her own rating system (truth= we all do on various axes) the difference is she didn’t publish it on a website. But one purpose of a rating system is to locate yourself on it. And Joyce thinks she is pretty low. This is inevitable given her guilt-based upbringing.
My hope is that Joe will look down at Malaya and say something like “No. Can’t you see we’re having a conversation here?”
She’s literally said to Dorothy that it’s a sin to believe in herself. She sees her entire life as being something to someone else- a daughter, wife, mother. She had implied, and Becky has outright said, that that was what she was raised for. In Gender Studies she made it clear she believed (although at that point it was starting to crack) that her role was to have a husband and let him make the rules. And, lastly and on topic, the only person we’ve actually seen her having romantic feelings for (Jacob) she believed she didn’t deserve to SIT WITH.
(I don’t think she had romantic feelings for Ethan at all. Sexual attraction, yes, and liking, but I don’t think there was any indication that she was romantically into him.)
Oh, a bit I missed- her saying she’s nothing without God. She, as a person, is nothing without God- and implied that she believes he had built a plan for her life that overrides anything she wants. Which links back into my above point.
I remember one movie with Liv Tyler where a guy tries to use that as an attitude for her to leave fundamentalist Christianity. Sadly, he’s trying to break up her marriage and thinks destroying her faith is the best way to get laid.
It is a central doctrine of her religion that she is sinful and worthless without Christ, and the comic has several references. When she tells Dorothy that she cannot do anything good without God, and Dorothy says ‘it hurts to know you believe that’. When she expresses sin envy – she is afraid to sin, and afraid not to. When she has sexual feelings she doesn’t know what to do with. Over and over.
Personally, I’m probably reading too much into the fact that Joyce doesn’t say Jacob’s name, but rather hesitates before she ends her sentence with – “…someone so beautiful.”
Possible turning point for Joe here. Either he goes with Malaya for casual superficial sex or he stays and tries to pursue a real relationship with Joyce. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for option nr 2.
I’m sort of expecting Joyce to walk off in the next strip. Possibly Joe chases after her? (Faz presumably in tow, I guess.) Or he just stands there like an idiot.
Honestly, I just want to see Malaya to crash and burn a little here. Not horrifically, but enough to count whatever she’s attempting as a failure.
Not even Carla is this annoying. Malaya has even crushed any peace opportunity with Sal willingly just to prove her point that Sal is a “faker”. Who cares if she fakes her accent? Sal drove a motorcycle to catch a super heroine in mid air!
Also – we’ve seen Sal keep her accent while yelling at Malaya, including the time before Malaya said that. Since Malaya said she was playing up how much she doesn’t like Sal because Marcie was mad almost immediately after, I’d take that with a grain of salt.
abysswatcher1993 states that:
“Sal drove a motorcycle to catch a super heroine in mid air!”
This was about Amazi-Girl, not Malaya.
Yes, Malaya was not present then. It is possible that details of that chase were reported in the university’s newspaper – which Malaya certainly doesn’t read.
You can cause pain in a relationship without actually “winning” and having a chance of splitting it up. Joyce is Christian, she should be very familiar with the idea of the devil.
She’s deflecting. Likely not intentionally but she’s definitely veering away on a tangent to avoid facing the actual point of this discussion: that she’s doing a bad and hurtful thing.
Maybe everybody here thinks it’s too obvious to be worth mentioning, but I want to point out that while it is clear that Joyce thinks Jacob is hot (gorgeous physique), when she calls him “beautiful” I’m pretty sure she also is referring to his personality: kind, considerate, insightful, intelligent, etc. We know she has first-hand experience of these attributes.
I think her upbringing has been such that she would not dare to think any of these things about herself. Learning that she can – and that she will not be struck by lightning if she does – is part of the process she has begun at UI.
I’m seeing conflicting emotions in Joe, on the one hand he has some protective feelings towards Joyce but on the other he remembers what she looked like on their first (maybe more in the future..?) date so thats probably causing some conflict also the conflict between stopping Joyce from her actions because its the right thing to do but also stopping Joyce because he also wants her
On the gripping hand, he also thinks he’s doomed to be like his father so if he did date Joyce, he’d cheat on her and break her heart. Since he does care about her, he won’t want to do that and thus won’t dare ask her, even if he wants to.
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“Hey Freakazoid, wanna go see a bear ride a motorcycle?”
“Do I?!”
Thank you, I needed that.
“Hey, Danny… do you want to hold hands and look at pictures of dinosaurs?”
“DO I!?!?”
In honor of that:
*plays Midnight Star’s “Freak-a-Zoid” on the hacked P.A. speakers*
“Pigs are smarter than bears, but they can’t ride motorcycles.”
They can ride them just fine. Their steering and balance may need a bit of work.
Per RFC 1925:
“With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.”
At first, I thought that linked to a memo from the Royal Flying Corps written in 1925.
You mean it isn’t?
“When lift plus thrust overcomes weight plus drag, anything will fly”
And anything’s air-droppable once.
Rhats why they invented the CanAm
Faz Is Great
subtitle: Jacob Is Pretty Neato Too
All Joe needs to do to save the day is emotionally open up and be honest about how great Joyce is. We’re doomed.
“What was I, Joe, before I hurt you?”
*Joe flees in terror*
People change and grow. Probably not today, but maybe soon.
He’s definitely becoming a better person, unfortunately he’s only on Day 3 or so of his redemption. This kind of moral conundrum is at least a 300 level course
Compounded by the ‘save’ option, will he take it? Leaving the world (or at least Joyce) to the ministrations of the Faz? Or will he break previous behavior again and refuse Malaya to uphold his accepted responsibility for the psuedo-kid bro?
Honestly, Joyce has been pretty not great recently what with her whole “trying to break up an established relationship purely for her own selfish reasons with no regard for the people involved’s feelings or wishes” thing.
Kinda of hard to be open and honest about how great someone who paid someone else to punch you repeatedly in the face is. I think Joyce and Joyce alone earned her Zero Minus
Sorry, Joyce and Joyce alone earned her score as anything other than objectification.
“God yes, but not in that way.”
We’ve seen Walky wear that face, but have we ever seen Joe wear it?
Also, Faz seems pretty okay with this development
Faz is a pretty chill guy, honestly. Living in a bubble of arrogance will apparently do that.
The knowledge that you are the greatest and that it is impossible for you to mess up is very liberating.
Between this and his penchant for charts I see a future career in management for him,
Someone wrote that 1800s China had a superiority complex, and couldn’t acknowledge Western technology less their self-image be threatened, while Japan just knew it was inherently superior, and could thus borrow from the West with impunity.
I have no idea if that’s an accurate way of describing the actual countries, but the idea of the distinction itself stuck with me. “I MUST be superior I MUST la la la can’t see you” vs. “Of course I’m superior, ooh nice stuff you have, let me take it to be even better.”
I’m not sure which Faz would be. Insufficient data under stress. I suspect more “complex” and he just hasn’t been written as paying properly for it.
Billie is definitely ‘complex’, but may be learning. Sal seems to be mostly “no, I am just that cool, whatevs”.
I always got the vibe that Sal doesn’t want to be cool she just doesn’t want to be put in other people’s boxes, she wants to do her. Like with the Rainbow Road and the maths. The fact that most people see that as cool and make a new box for her is probably annoying.
Which is what Malaya doesn’t get. Nicely done summing that up!
Considering China knew about paper for more than thousand years before Europe got along to it (stuff like wheelbarrows were there also quite early), they had just failed to update their ideas about the western world regularlily.
They once had good reasons to concider the western wold technologically backwards.
I don’t think you can say the same about Faz.
Sal is learning from other people if she thinks they actually know more. You might have to prove that, though, as she’s not going to trust in you saying so. That has nothing to do with being cool, but a lot with self-preservation and learning that few people can be trusted.
I mean, that makes for some great Gravatar material!
Joe hasn’t embraced his geekiness in this continuity and started collecting toy robots, so tragically he has nothing to throw at Joyce’s head and must suffer in silence.
So what you’re saying is that Walky should show up and throw a toy at Joe’s head to introduce him to the world of toy robots?
Nah, Walky threw a toy from a show that he loved. The choice of toy is very important. It’s like how penguins will search for just the right pebble to present to a potential mate.
Can’t just chuck any old Transformer at a girl’s head, your message will be muddied. An Optimus, Megatron, or Bumblebee is classic, but also somewhat predictable. Starscream is a decidedly tsundere gesture. Beast-era toys can work, but only if you’re okay with her showing up at your place with in a fursuit. Ultra Magnus is fine to indicate a casual, professional affection. Tailgate or Rewind is a declaration of true love.
You could always throw a Shockwave, but…you know. Only if she a freak.
Walky could show up and pass Joe that Head Alien Chef toy he won off Joyce for not crying at Titanic.
Assuming Amber didn’t keep it.
You know, we really do need a flowchart
Of relationships, or of Transformers?
Should Robin try throwing a Blur?
So what would an Omega Supreme or a Metroplex signify?
Fractured skull?
No, he should throw Malaya at Joyce’s head. Two problems, one solution.
Well, he could always throw Faz at her.
The more they talk the more accurate his chart will be.
Malaya Momentkiller Eugenio you stop that this instant
Had to.
Thank you! I’m glad I inspired you to meme two of my favorite things together.
Luckily for Joe, he got saved from having to admit his crush.
UNluckily(?) for him, it’s because of Malaya.
Well, ain’t that an appropriate gravatar.
You know, this reminds me how, “Yeah, yer abso-freakin’ right, Marcie, ah DO hate that we’ve somehow befriended Malaya” is still one of my favorite lines in the comic.
Anyone who has that as one of their favourite lines is a friend of mine.
“Abso-freakin'” reminds me of Babylon 5. Remember that, from the 90s? In the end, Londo repented for his crimes, but he still had to face the consequences of them. In this universe, that instrument of fate is Malaya. You know what they say; karma’s a drum.
But Malaya doesn’t care what you want.
But she does. Right now, for example, she wants Joe to want her and rate her highly so she can beat out Sal’s “fake coolness”.
Still don’t think that’s it.
Monday’s hovertext literally said, ”on my way to steal your dude you don’t care for”? Way I see it, it’s kind of clearly indicating Malaya’s intentions to “steal” Joe from Sal, with a bit of snark added about how Sal doesn’t actually care about Joe.
Joe likes her shipping confirmed! I mean look at his eyes in panel five!
The eyes tell all.
They’re absolutely perfect for each other because they see each other’s flaws and aren’t afraid to call each other out WHY AM I SHIPPING THESE TWO
Welp, I think Joe’s in for a little bit of a backslide on his behaviour here.
That’s not a dig on Joe. He’s only just started working on this issue. People backslide before they get it right, it happens.
I doubt it. Or at least, not nearly as far back as you’d expect. He’s putting in effort to keep an eye on Faz. I could see him flirting with Malaya or getting her number, but he’s not gonna dump Faz on Joyce and go off to bonetown.
I think he might if it got him an excuse to not talk about his feelings with Joyce. He’ll probably come back for Faz soon enough but Malaya is offering him a lot more than a date with a pretty girl. She’s giving him an ‘out’.
It would be kind of amusing if he dumps Faz on Joyce. And then Joyce has to pass him on to someone else and so on. Amber finally wakes up and Sierra’s got him.
I, ah, don’t really think someone coming up to him and saying “Hey, I’m into you” is an “issue.”
The problem here has been him being kind of a jackass. Casual encounters, themselves, are not a problem.
I was referring to him being a jackass. I’m worried he’s going to go back to being more douchey. Not like, ‘List 2.0’ or anything but still a step back.
Yeah, he might. It’s kinda his defense mechanism against anything feelings-related, because he’s emotionally not mature enough to deal with stuff like that, so he acts like an idiot. Plus his parent’s divorce has probably given him some issues.
It takes a long time to undo a reflex that carefully constructed. Even more so when you see it as your only defense against vulnerabilities you do not want to admit to.
See most people who’ve undergone trauma and responding “I’m fine” to things.
Exactly. Malaya is offering him an ‘out’ and (god forbid) possibly a ‘see, a pretty girl doesn’t think my being a douche was a big deal, maybe it wasn’t that bad?’
Dammit Malaya.
Get the fuck *outta* here, Malaya.
Daaaaang Joyce, dropping the truth bombs.
Haha pair Malaya with Faz, see what happens.
There will be blood or marinara.
…. holy shit.
We’re getting an arc where New Joe meets Female Old Joe.
“Normally I’d say no, but given that the alternative is self-reflection, hell yes let’s get out of here.”
Joyce, Joe, Malaya and Faz in the same place. This is new territory I wonder where this encounter will go.
Malaya…., please no. On so many levels, please no….
I…don’t understand why this is upsetting for Joyce
Joe’s Zero rating of her, and her (correct) suggestion that it was because she had hurt him. She also asked him before what it had been before that, and he evaded the question, and there was that date they went on.
I think there are still some complicated feelings there, to say the least. I don’t think she’s so much upset with him as knowing he’s not being entirely forthcoming.
Huh, I thought that Joe gave her that rating because she became too important for him and gave her the worst rating to shield her from others
I forgot that she hurt him
I’m not sure “upsetting” is the right word? I think BBCC’s reply to Mad_Academic below really nails this interaction. Joe likes to pretend he isn’t invested in Joyce, and Joyce is here recognizing and confronting him on what a lie that is. It’s a tense, fraught conversation because this is the kind of conversation Joe has traditionally refused to have — plus it’s occurring in the context of an argument about Sarah, which has already put Joyce on the defensive.
I’m not sure she is upset, but she is onto something.
Faz thinks she’s talking to him . . .
I think I missed a step here, because the last page doesn’t seem to correlate with this page. That, or I am missing something.
Joe likes to act like he’s not that emotionally invested, especially in Joyce. Joyce has been trying to nudge a feelings conversation out of him for a while, particularly regarding the way they interact with each other. This is another time she’s trying that.
As for last page, she’s connecting ‘You believe that (I can land Jacob). Here she’s explaining her reasoning (that if she were incapable of landing Jacob, Je would have no reason to worry Sarah would succeed in breaking up Jacob and Raidah. Ergo, he believes she is capable).
Yup, plus she had also asked him what her rating was before the “Zero”, after she correctly suggested that he had changed it after she had hurt him, which she was surprisingly NOT dismissive of, so I think she doesn’t blame the disaster that was their date entirely on him anymore.
I think, whether or not she’s aware of it, that she wants to know what Joe really thinks of her.
But has Joyce recently had issues of self-esteem (or something else) about attracting guys? Just trying to figure this out myself.
Oh yeah. For example.
Yes, specifically about attracting Jacob.
Good thing Malaya showed up before Joe had to talk about his feelings. /sarcasm
Ah yes, the perfect woman to help teach Joe how to value women as human beings and not sex objects!
Wait…
Dammit Malaya I wanted to see Joe’s response to that.
*flips popcorn box* GODDAMMIT MALAYA
Damn, this chart gonna give Faz nightmares.
Does anyone else find Joyce’s logic kind of twisted? Even if Joyce didn’t have a chance of succeeding, Joe should still have stepped in, because it’s a terrible example of behaviour that needed to be stopped.
Of course, Joyce still doesn’t think what she’s doing is wrong, so she has to justify why Joe would ‘step in’.
this guy gets it
She probably doesn’t get how against homewrecking Joe is, since if you didn’t know that about him, it’d be easy to think he wouldn’t care.
While how she got there is missing the whole picture, she does seem to correctly see that his Zero rating of her is obviously not his honest assessment.
She’s still taking the wrong message from the confrontation though. It should be ‘I shouldn’t be trying to break them up, and Sarah doesn’t even have my best interests at heart here’.
Instead, it’s ‘Joe you think of me as a HUMAN BEING.’.
Well, that’s an important message to take from it too. It’s not the one he’s trying to convey – in fact it’s one he’s trying to hide.
Well, not quite.
“Joe, you think of me as an ATTRACTIVE human being”.
Or at least, in his crude ways, someone who can “bag a ten”.
She was already the only one on the “do” list that was rated for her personality rather than her looks.
I mean, I feel like he both has a rather high opinion of joyce and ALSO the zero rating was an honest assessment because holy shit punching someone in the face for being a really bad date is extremely fucked up.
She does seem to at least get that much, thankfully, since she acknowledged in a past comment that she had hurt Joe, and I don’t think she was meaning strictly physically, after she found out about the zero rating.
The date was before she knew Dorothy wasn’t chaste, someone she has pretty solid respect for, and other challenges to her world view, along with Roz’s party and other stuff like that, so I think she may have realized that she wasn’t treating Joe like much of a person, either, but the Future Husband ideal that he obviously flew in the face of. (That, too, has changed over time, like finding out the male role models in her life weren’t as “perfect” as she thought they were, with Hank swearing and not having the best relationship with her mom, and Toe Dad Ross being a shit)
I feel like that’s a big symptom of the worldview she was given by her upbringing where lying, deception, or destroying positive relationships are all justified in saving one to the right religion or relationship.
She’s missing the point on why what she’s doing is messed up and doing so so impressively she’s accidentally stumbled into a truth Joe had no idea was noticeable about himself.
Well, Joyce is also fiercely defensive of the people she knows and cares about. Which is great, but it also means she has huge blind spots in regards to other people’s wellbeing.
She doesn’t know anything about Jacob and Raidah’s relationship, but she automatically assumes Jacob and Sarah would be better because Sarah is her friend.
True, though I don’t think it helps that in their interactions in the past, Raidah’s been a shitheel to her, even before Jacob was in the picture. I think she was also present for Raidah mean-girling Dina with her friends.
Joyce wasn’t present for that; Raidah put on a pleasant face when she met Joyce, so Joyce was pretty surprised when Sarah showed up all upset with Raidah(I’d link, but I’m on my phone right now).
So much this!
You had the exact same idea I had, wrote it before me, and I think your comment flows better.
I need to read the comments more so I don’t keep doing this.
I can see her believing Joe wouldn’t step in if he didn’t feel like they could succeed – Joe seems more like the kind of guy who would let it blow up in their face and then say ‘Yeah, no duh, that was a boneheaded thing to do’.
He did actively step in when she was being stupid on the stairmaster, though.
Yes, but that had a chance of a physical injury.
Seriously, like just because you don’t believe someone is capable of accomplishing a stupid and immoral thing they’re trying to do doesn’t mean they somehow aren’t gonna be affected by the consequences of attempting it regardless of if they succeed or not.
i mean I’m pretty cool with this development but i’m still reaaaaally waiting on Joyce to actually have a moment of, yknow, introspection on her actions.
I mean one thing at a time i get it but you know.
It will happen. It took her a long time before realizing that she was homophobic, and more time to realize that half of her family are bigots. Just a few years more and maybe she will accept a compatible theory of evolution and god, like the DC universe.
Awww shy Joe.
Now don’t mess up Joe, I mean it.
GODDAMMIT Malaya, could your timing have been any shitter. Joe’s got some SPLAININ’ to do!
Comic Reactions: It’s always interesting when other characters see Joyce’s lack of experience with secular norms and culture and general naivety to common touchstones and forget that she’s actually highly analytical and thoughtful in her own way.
She’s got a lot of cobwebs to borrow the Becky phrasing and she’s got various hangups and is completely out of the loop on a lot of stuff, especially sexual and dating culture, but she’s nonetheless a brilliant analytical person who can be brutal at tugging on an inconsistency.
And I think here we see Joe caught out in this underestimation and not for the first time. Which makes sense, not only does he view her as naive for not knowing as much about sexual terminology as he has developed faking his sex-god persona, but he’s been in the role of being an emotional supporter over the phone.
Which is why we see his panic here. He likely was not expecting her to catch on to his own interest and growing feelings for her and is definitely in no way prepared to deal with actually being in a position of vulnerability with a girl where he has feelings that can be hurt and where he can be rejected in a way that matters to him*.
*And yes, it says a lot about the socialization of dudes like Joe that hurting other people through sexual harassment matters a lot less than feeling sad because someone they were interested in shot them down.
What’s also sad here is how little Joyce values herself. Seeing her as incomprehensible to imagine being wanted by someone she deems unattainably “hot” even though they have demonstrated strong chemistry together and a very positive interaction style that has lead to inadvertent flirting.
I’m also worried about the intrusion of Malaya. Otherworld Malaya, pre-relationship with Ultra Car was known for terrible dating decisions and there’s enough in the last panel to make one worry that this is a carrying over of that (though if she kneels him in the balls instead, I might join Carla and Marcie in rooting heavily for her).
The reason being if she does offer a bad connection choice instead, Faz will only see that continuing his spiral into PUA hell and creepiness is superficially successful which is the exact opposite message he needs right now. It’s also the last thing Joe needs in a moment of genuine vulnerability.
If Malaya ends up telling him what’s what (I know Joyce already did, but hearing it from more than one person can’t hurt) I will figure out a way to enter comics just so I can give her cookies and beer.
Maybe, but I don’t see any indication that’s coming. Both what she said to the others before and her actions now seem to be actual intent to come on to Joe – even if it’s mostly motivated by one-upping Sal (on something Sal cares nothing about, of course.)
Maybe I’m underestimating her or misreading something, but I can’t see it.
And yeah, not the example Faz needs, though not as bad as if it had been Old Joe making the first move on Malaya.
I agree it’s unlikely, but I can dream.
Another facet of it, that I think Joe catches on to, is that Joyce takes a leaf from HIS book. Jacob is a ten. Only a ten (or possibly a nine+), could ever have a chance with him, because clearly personal chemistry is a one dimensional measurement of hotness. All those soft smiles and common jokes and feeling secure in his strong, warm arms and her heart going pitter patter and what she so far has denied she saw in Jacob’s eyes as well, can clearly be reduced to how hot they are.
Just in the moment he begins to distance himself from that toxic thinking, JOYCE – too pure for this sinful world Joyce – begins spouting the same bullshit. I think there is an aspect of him fearing that he drags her down with him, similar to here
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/wooingarts/
And of course, what makes it extra hard for Joe is that he DOES have the Hotz for Joyce, and deep down he ISN’T convinced his ratings are bullshit, so on one level this is confirmation he would be better without.
Ouch, yeah, Faz is taking all the wrong lessons from this.
“deep down he ISN’T convinced his ratings are bullshit”
To be fair, you don’t live most of your life with a very particular system/ruleset and then just change that over a few days. It’s going to take Joe quite a while to fully break away from that.
And everyone treating him like shit for it really isn’t going to help.
Yup, they are both stuck in such a toxic system and it’s preventing both of them fully being present with their feelings and handling them in a positive way.
What on Earth has Joe done to Malaya to deserve being viciously assaulted in your eyes? Or anyone for that matter? Yeah, he’s a gross jackass but that hardly warrants subjecting him to an extremely painful physical injury.
He made the list and put it somewhere that it could get leaked.
…. that probably doesn’t DESERVE violent battery in the tender regions, in the sense that very few things actually deserve violent battery, but it might still provoke it.
*provoke it and make it cathartic.
Joe’s fictional. For a lot of people, wishing violence or death on fictional characters doesn’t bother them. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched Game of Thrones and was just waiting for a character I hated to die, but irl I would not be capable of wanting someone to die.
I don’t think a knee to the balls is what he needs in such a moment of vulnerability either…
Yeah *sigh*. Pretty much anything Malaya is about to do here (and it’s probably hit on him) is going to be bad for his recovery from his toxic worldview.
“Oh no she’s cute”
Adorable, smiling Malaya is much too powerful and we are all doomed
I thought we learned that in Walkyverse when she had Fuckface on her head?
Is that what that thing on he face is?
Smiling Malaya, without Fuckface? Now I’ve seen everything!
This makes me think lower of her. And it’s the last thing Joe needs.
The greatest weapon of evil is the ability to take on a fair form. Like Sauron deceiving the elves of Eregion.
Joe doesn’t have to think Joyce can land Jacob to want her to stop trying to interfere in the relationship.
He could simply feel that her attempts might be found out and all kinds of drama would ensue.
Of course, he does think Joyce has a chance. She’s right about that. I’m just saying the logic isn’t ironclad. It wasn’t an either or possibility.
Joe, I swear, I’ve been rooting for you for a long time. Just tell Joyce you think she’s pretty, goddammit.
Your avatar suggests what Joe’s thinking along those lines.
it’s not the first time this gravatar contradicts me and i suspect it won’t be last. damn you, joe!
Are you aware of what “rooting” means in Commonwealth countries? I don’t think Joe needs any help with that, he’s proven he’s quite capable himself!
Does it have something to do with forestry or agriculture?
Mostly the bushes and plowing aspects.
English is not my native language so nope, I wasn’t aware of that. I thought the term you’re referring to is “rutting”, though. Is “rooting” an alternative spelling of that? (Genuinely asking here, btw.)
Probably not, because the usage is quite different.
* “Rooting” is used almost exclusively for human sex.
* We never speak of an animal being “in root” the way you might speak of an animal being “in rut”.
* As a noun “rut” is a season and “root” is a person considered in their aspect as an partner for sex (“John is a good root”).
* “Rut” is not used as a transitive verb.
Interesting. Not one I’ve heard. Poking around the internets, it seems it’s specific to Australia and New Zealand? Not British or Canadian slang.
they called it the ship of dreams. and it was… it really was
Joe is about to make a Bad Decision now, isn’t he?
“Well it’s not called Smarting of Ag-”
Quiet, you.
“Jacob is clearly a ten. Are you saying that a mere ‘zero minus’ would have a chance on a ten?”
“I…”
“Or am *I* a ten, is that what you are saying?”
“I…”
*Joe breaks down*
“YOU ARE AN ELEVEEEEEN, JOYCE! THE ELEVEN OF MY HEAAAAAART!”
“Don’t you get it? Once you pass zero, it wraps around!”
[computer geek]Joyce is rated 2^32-1[/computer geek]
Big eyes demand biiiiiig dialogue. Good stuff.
Delightful.
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeen
He’s begging Joyce, don’t take Raidah’s man
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeen
He’s begging her, because he knows she can.
He knows that Joyce’s beyond compare
With eyes that blue and brunette hair
and an ivory smile that spans a mile wide
She thinks that she’s a frumpy nerd
But with Jacob, she’d get the final word
and Joe can’t quite voice what’s deep inside
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeeen
He’s begging Joyce, don’t take Raidah’s man
Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leen, Joe-leeeeeeeen
He’s begging her, because he knows she CAN.
*applause*
Wow. The reason I read the comments.
So… Despite everything, is it wrong to ship Joe and Joyce? Like, they’ve both got their issues, and they’re a long way from being able to work as a couple…
But, maybe Joyce got a low score because Joe was lying to himself?
If shipping them is wrong, then I don’t want to be right!
I kinda ship them. Like, at the least, I find their friendship very interesting and very dynamic.
I also think it’s kinda surprising that Joyce didn’t write Joe off as being full of shit when he outed Sarah’s plan, first assuming he was just wrong, then picking up that he’s NOT lying about the plan because he’s lying about his assessment of her, which is intriguing. It does imply she trusts him more than Joe might expect.
A quantum-shipper contain multitudes!
There is a bond forming between them and, yes, I do think that Joe is trying to work out if he’s jealous of Joyce falling for Jacob or if he’s just being over-protective.
And if so, who he is protective of. Joyce or Jacob?
I mean, *I* ship it. And I’m pretty great, so I’d say you’re in the clear.
Dammit, Malaya! We need answers, not your flirting! This is why Marcie is taking time to confess to you!
Might never do that now that she’s seeing crush spike her heart into the ground by flirting with a random macho dude right in front of her.
I think it’d be less that, and maybe more that she’s doing it to spite Sal after Marcie specifically asked her to stop being so shitty to Sal.
If Marcie cares more about hating Sal than Marcie’s feelings then I recommend Marcie to seek better people to hang out with.
Malaya, not Marcie* I am bad at typing here.
Interesting to see what happens here, almost like a devil (temptation) on one shoulder and angel (redemption) on the other
Joes turned down flirting females before because he thought he could get something better so hopefully his ego will step up and make the right decision
Well, opportunities abound for Joe and Joyce.
But not necessarily GOOD opportunities.
Of course she has a chance, there’s no reason she wouldn’t. Why not? And why would Joe have a problem saying that?
But it’s not at all the point. Jacob is already seeing someone, and he doesn’t deserve to have that broken up… no matter who it is.
If his relationship fails, it should be on its own terms, not from someone else interfering. I’ve been in that… it’s not fun, and wrecks havoc on you, especially if you’re in the Raidah position.
I mean, Joe is super into Joyce, isn’t he? He can’t really admit it or anything, I don’t think, but it’s fairly obvious. He acted as her emotional support when she went home for the weekend with Becky, which is really out of character for him, since he knows he can’t leverage it for sex. When the list came out, and Joyce pointed out that even though she was the only Zero, she couldn’t have always been because Joe asked her out, and asked what her original number was, Joe ran out of there like a bat out of hell because he couldn’t deal with being honest with her about it. And on the topic of the list, Joyce was the one that was finally able to get him to fully understand how fucked what he did actually was.
What I am trying to figure out, is if Joe has romantic feeling for Joyce, or sees her more as a little sister.
Both. That’s the problem.
So, Joyce is idolizing a black Episcopalian.
Her mother is going to have an aneurysm.
Probably, though Jacob’s a real hit with moms, if you’ve read Shortpacked.
He’s a hit with Stacey O’Malley; that’s not quite the same thing.
Stacy is a mom!
She also has a record of poor romantic decision-making.
It’s looking like it’s either a black Episcopalian or a semi-lapsed Jew. Either way, I’m brining the popcorn to the Carol Brown Head Explosion Party.
I suspect that some portion of Joe’s objection the plan to break up Jacob and Raidah is that Joe — heretofore unbeknownst to Joe — is interested in Joyce himself. He probably only now is clueing in that he likes her, but he was definitely impressed when she showed up for their date looking adorable in that yellow dress and when she asked him what she was before she was a zero-minus, he literally bolted and ran away.
I dunno if Joe likes Joyce like that, although I could sort of see it since they seem to be relatively close.
But I don’t know that Joe would want to tell Joyce, a girl who is now his friend and he thinks is kind of wonderful, that she was a four he would upgrade to a ten with sex.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Especially now that he’s actually feeling bad for the list, I don’t think it’s the kind of thing he’d want to admit.
More like the Beast
This is my new favorite favorite
I’m not sure why Joyce thinks that this is such a big issue, unless that ‘zero-minus’ thing hit a lot harder than I expected.
Malaya, I know that there is no way you could have known this but that was the single worst example of timing I’ve recently witnessed.
I think at least part of it is a misdirection to avoid the big issues of Big-Sis-Is-Using-Me-To-Do-Something-Shitty, I-Am-Doing-Something-Shitty and Uh-Oh-Maybe-Those-Innocent-Fantasies-About-Jacob-Weren’t-Quite-So-Innocent-After-All-I’m-Crushing-On-Him-Pretty-Bad-Wait-What-If-All-Those-Adorable-Shared-Moments-We-Had-Means-He-Might-Perhaps-Possibly-Have-Some-Feelings-For-ME-In-Return-Beat-Still-My-Heart-Don’t-Think-Of-His-Strong-Sweaty-Arms-Carrying-Me-To-Safety-Or-How-Good-He-Smelled-Even-If-I-Was-Kinda-Barfy-God-No-You-Thought-About-It-Why-Did-You-Think-About-it-So-What-If-I-Was-Thinking-Of-It-It’s-No-Sin-Right?-Right??-He-Is-A-Good-Christian-We-Could-Marry-And-Have-A-Million-Children-
and-lots-of-sex-IN-A-VERY-PLATONIC-WAY-I’M-SURE-And-Live-Happy-Ever-After-Oh-God-I’m-Still-Thinking-Of-It-Joe-Was-Right-How-Annoying-Quick-Snap-At-JoeI mean, it’s probably consciously her avoiding those thoughts, but also subconsciously her wanting to believe she has a chance with Jacob.
And also, she probably does genuinely want to understand what Joe thinks of her.
Then again, all that’s basically happened is that Joiyce went from being the wing-woman to being the protagonist in the rom-com she sees life as.
Oh, please let Joyce’s first DoA “fuck” be directed at Malaya.
Nah, Malaya’s not important enough for that. At least not right now.
NOW KIS— god DAMMIT Malaya!
…Y’know what?
I ship it.
Malaya, your reading of body language is atrocious.
Malaya is just plain awful
Reading and caring are two different things.
And Malaya has shown herself largely incapable of both.
Hrm, lessee, when’s the right time to make my move…
Flirty banter? Nope.
Affectionate argument? Not yet…
Awkward silence? Wait for it….
Realization of feels! IT’S GO TIME!
When you put it that way the timing was pretty on spot…
So, what’s the big deal exactly? Why is Joe reluctant to say to Joice that “Yes, you can land Jacob” What reason is stopping him from being blunt about that? I mean, after having told her Sarah’s plan, that she has a chance with Jacob seems like a soft info to deliver, by comparison.
It’s probably because he likes her
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/gender/
Man, it’s always such a huge trip to go back and look at a webcartoonist’s early work after you’ve gotten so used to their current style.
Firstly, Joe thinks what Sarah is doing is shitty and he doesn’t want to encourage Joyce when she’s clearly crushing on Jacob. Secondly, I rather think that he’s either developing a crush of his own on Joyce or he has a protective elder brother mindset towards her and he isn’t about to encourage her to romance anyone!
The old escape route, Another girl, another planet …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKuc3faQAEs
Entire Fandom right now: REEEEEEEEE !
Why does Joyce think Joe thinks she’s either unattractive or otherwise not worthy of Jacob? They’re friends right? Like how does Joyce think Joe thinks so low of her?
Wherever could she have got that idea…
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/ragdoll-2/
(To be fair, she obviously gets that her score reflects Joe being in a snit about their date rather than his true feelings, but she still wants him to spit it out. After all, she has MASSIVE hangups about relationships, so it’s pretty given that she is unsure how other sees her)
“Joyce you got a zero minus because you physically abused me.”
“Don’t rate women, Joe. … women who are violent criminals for their violence, maybe. But not women as sex objects.”
But later she said she was the only woman he had rated based on who she was right? Like if she believes the rating is based on her personality and she believes joe thinks she’s a zero in that respect why tf are they friends?
Because they have grown since Joyce punched Joe because he was being a creep. They became friends through mutual understanding and bonding over parents who are fighting. Plus Joyce opening up and showing Joe that she trusts him. Enough to tell him about Gashface.
More I think that her rating wasn’t based on her looks, but on her (and Mike’s) punching of him. She wasn’t objectified by him – in that rating at least.
I don’t think it has so much to do with looks, as with her neurosises and hung-ups. She forced herself to eat her buttered noodles with the meatballs on top because she wanted to be more normal for Jacob and the girl she tries setting Jacob up with, Sarah, is pre-law, just like raidah and jacob himself and she could very well feel that her education choice is below his academic level and therefore dont match up. At least thats my take to why she feels she’s below him
Mad and highly-unlikely possibility: Joyce sees that Malaya is making Joe uncomfortable so she decides to run interference for him. The way she chooses to do this is to introduce herself as Joe’s girlfriend and then kiss him passionately. Complications ensue.
Well in reality I think Joe would be a bit stunned in this situation, like going off with someone is not how he thought this situation would end so it would be nice to see Joyce look out for Joe
But as you say its a Mad and highly-unlikely possibility
Goddammit, Malaya, you’re interrupting interesting stuff! Go away!
…..
Can I borrow that for a macro that I can just spam every time Malaya shows up and doesn’t piss off Mary?
Sal kinda beat you to it in… almost every strip both Sal and Malaya appear in.
Joe shouldn’t have to open up if he doesn’t want to. He’s not ready. Maybe he won’t be ready for a long time. Solution is to see a therapist, like most characters here should be doing.
Gotta hire QC’s therapist.
Or go see the school’s counselor/therapist
Joyce, I’d have more sympathy for you here if your attempt to get validation from Joe isn’t so you can serve as a person who is trying to break up a couple. In which case, no, I don’t think Joe has any obligation to help you build your courage up.
Nobody as any obligation to build people up. Except therapists, probably. And I think this stopped being about breaking up a short while ago.
Given I have a wife who suffers from depression, I find this statement to be bullshit as the basics of a friendship is to be there for that person.
I don’t think this is an indication that Joe has “feelings” for Joyce. I think it’s an indication of him actually recognizing, on some level, that his ratings are kind of bullshit and in no way correlate to who has a chance with whom – at least in this particular case.
What really surprises me here is that this is a surprise for Joyce. GIRL YOU ARE PRETTY AND GREAT WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THAT HEAD OF YOURS
Way to avoid thinking about the real issue here, Joyce. Those fundie roots run deep.
Totally off-topic but, yeah, Faz’s fixed grin is creepy, isn’t it?
Totes OT but this is my only online space where I am out soo…
Got correctly gendered in the airport yesterday. Three times. Was even wearing makeup because business trip while in the US and closeted so. Only thing different was my hair and I did not know hair made such a huge difference in how people gender you. Am totally gonna use that style again cuz I finally found a masc style that seems to work for me.
So..yeah. uh. Go me I guess?
Definitely go you! Congratulations that sounds like a good day
High five!
hoorays!!!
Congratulations!!!
Oh yeah, hair makes so much difference in my experience too. More people have been talking to me in masculine language since I got a shorter haircut. Not sure how I feel about it, because I am non-binary and I don’t really see myself as masculine. It also makes me kind of nervous because I too am closeted, and am used to pretending like I pass as a female person, when I don’t really.
Anyway, yay for you!
That’s wonderful! Congrats.
That’s awesome!
Awesome!
yeah, now that you mention it, the two times I remember being misgendered were both when I had short hair.
*pops confetti*
Joyce has her own rating system (truth= we all do on various axes) the difference is she didn’t publish it on a website. But one purpose of a rating system is to locate yourself on it. And Joyce thinks she is pretty low. This is inevitable given her guilt-based upbringing.
My hope is that Joe will look down at Malaya and say something like “No. Can’t you see we’re having a conversation here?”
I don’t think Joyce’s upbringing had much to do with her low ranking.
On Joe’s scale, no. On her scale, yes. A cosmology of guilt and female subservience will lead to feelings of unworthiness.
And where exactly is that implied?
*in the comic, not the bible.
I don’t necessarily agree guilt-based, but I think Joyce has some inferiority issues.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/wife/
That strip and the next two after it might be what Vulcanodon is getting at
She’s literally said to Dorothy that it’s a sin to believe in herself. She sees her entire life as being something to someone else- a daughter, wife, mother. She had implied, and Becky has outright said, that that was what she was raised for. In Gender Studies she made it clear she believed (although at that point it was starting to crack) that her role was to have a husband and let him make the rules. And, lastly and on topic, the only person we’ve actually seen her having romantic feelings for (Jacob) she believed she didn’t deserve to SIT WITH.
(I don’t think she had romantic feelings for Ethan at all. Sexual attraction, yes, and liking, but I don’t think there was any indication that she was romantically into him.)
Oh, a bit I missed- her saying she’s nothing without God. She, as a person, is nothing without God- and implied that she believes he had built a plan for her life that overrides anything she wants. Which links back into my above point.
I remember one movie with Liv Tyler where a guy tries to use that as an attitude for her to leave fundamentalist Christianity. Sadly, he’s trying to break up her marriage and thinks destroying her faith is the best way to get laid.
It is a central doctrine of her religion that she is sinful and worthless without Christ, and the comic has several references. When she tells Dorothy that she cannot do anything good without God, and Dorothy says ‘it hurts to know you believe that’. When she expresses sin envy – she is afraid to sin, and afraid not to. When she has sexual feelings she doesn’t know what to do with. Over and over.
She parts her foot into components – her peer group rolls eyes.
She was unable to cuss – her peer group laughs about it.
She thinks she is the “weird one”, but she wants to be the “cool one” (see also: Imitating Sal and getting her gloves thrown out by Ruth).
Oh God, this is going to end with Malaya boning Faz somehow isn’t it.
That’d be pretty terrible.
And therefore hilarious.
Isn’t he 14?
15, almost 16.
And he has a printout of state’s Romeo & Juliet law showing it would be legal.
Nothing weird here at all.
I’m still of the opinion that even at just 18, an adult fucking a 15 year old year old is still pretty fucked.
Alright everyone, all together now… 3…2…1..
GOD DAMN IT MALAYLA
GODDAMN IT MALAYA!
Is this on a shirt? I need this on a shirt.
Personally, I’m probably reading too much into the fact that Joyce doesn’t say Jacob’s name, but rather hesitates before she ends her sentence with – “…someone so beautiful.”
Couldn’t possibly be anyone else, huh? >:)
Aaaaaaaand Faz now has a new and very Christian babysitter
Well, part of her plan with college WAS to prepare for taking care of children…
I can’t go along with Malaya as a belle. to quote the Northern Pikes, “She ain’t pretty, she just looks that way”.
Possible turning point for Joe here. Either he goes with Malaya for casual superficial sex or he stays and tries to pursue a real relationship with Joyce. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for option nr 2.
He still has to faz-sit.
Faz + Malaya.
The perfect couple.
I’m sort of expecting Joyce to walk off in the next strip. Possibly Joe chases after her? (Faz presumably in tow, I guess.) Or he just stands there like an idiot.
Honestly, I just want to see Malaya to crash and burn a little here. Not horrifically, but enough to count whatever she’s attempting as a failure.
I second that motion! With a vengeance!
I kind of want Malaya to succeed. It’s bad of me, but I think the fallout will be more entertaining.
Reason#733 to hate Malaya: THIS! FUCKING, THIS!!
Not even Carla is this annoying. Malaya has even crushed any peace opportunity with Sal willingly just to prove her point that Sal is a “faker”. Who cares if she fakes her accent? Sal drove a motorcycle to catch a super heroine in mid air!
Also – we’ve seen Sal keep her accent while yelling at Malaya, including the time before Malaya said that. Since Malaya said she was playing up how much she doesn’t like Sal because Marcie was mad almost immediately after, I’d take that with a grain of salt.
We saw Sal save Amazing-Girl, not Malaya. All Malaya has seen of Sal is her being a gigantic pain in the ass.
abysswatcher1993 states that:
“Sal drove a motorcycle to catch a super heroine in mid air!”
This was about Amazi-Girl, not Malaya.
Yes, Malaya was not present then. It is possible that details of that chase were reported in the university’s newspaper – which Malaya certainly doesn’t read.
Things are heating up. The fallout of this should be interesting.
That’s….that’s completely irrational.
You can cause pain in a relationship without actually “winning” and having a chance of splitting it up. Joyce is Christian, she should be very familiar with the idea of the devil.
Yeah, I’m not really sure what to make of this either. Seems like it’s going to be a painful wakeup call for her in the end.
She’s deflecting. Likely not intentionally but she’s definitely veering away on a tangent to avoid facing the actual point of this discussion: that she’s doing a bad and hurtful thing.
Best. Pun. Ever.
Also we hate Malaya for going and hitting on a hunky dude with impeccably but inadvertently bad timing now? wat
That’s a “Welp, Joyce knows I think she’s actually cute as all get out” face
Maybe everybody here thinks it’s too obvious to be worth mentioning, but I want to point out that while it is clear that Joyce thinks Jacob is hot (gorgeous physique), when she calls him “beautiful” I’m pretty sure she also is referring to his personality: kind, considerate, insightful, intelligent, etc. We know she has first-hand experience of these attributes.
I think her upbringing has been such that she would not dare to think any of these things about herself. Learning that she can – and that she will not be struck by lightning if she does – is part of the process she has begun at UI.
I’m seeing conflicting emotions in Joe, on the one hand he has some protective feelings towards Joyce but on the other he remembers what she looked like on their first (maybe more in the future..?) date so thats probably causing some conflict also the conflict between stopping Joyce from her actions because its the right thing to do but also stopping Joyce because he also wants her
Intriguing times ahead
On the gripping hand, he also thinks he’s doomed to be like his father so if he did date Joyce, he’d cheat on her and break her heart. Since he does care about her, he won’t want to do that and thus won’t dare ask her, even if he wants to.
This is true and its also possible Joe might actually think Joyce is too good for him
Joyce and Joe are the best double act in this comic, imho
They’re my #2.
I’ve got a feeling that by the time this story is over, every single person on campus will have had Faz handed off to them at some point or another.