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Over the last few weeks of this storyline, I and other have been called virgins, puritans, immature, and judgemental, but my absolute favorite has to be legalistic.
We are discussing two law students, one of whom has a literal checklist for potential partners, and you don’t think they laid down ground rules for what and was not okay in their relationship?
Yeah, now you know why I avoided talking about this storyline as it unfolded. It wasn’t getting quite to the point that another comic I read has gotten, but I kind of wanted to stay out of a fight.
Honestly, probably not? We saw a bit of conversation on that – Raidah’s “I’ll just leave you if cheat” bit and it didn’t feel like something they’d talked about or laid out in detail. He asked if hanging out with Joyce was okay – and she said yes, then proceeded to try to sabotage it when she perceived a threat.
Law students or not, they seem to be running on the usual unstated cultural assumptions on how romance works. Which generally work well enough, even if differences in detail can cause clashes.
Which doesn’t mean his behavior was okay since there wasn’t a specific rule forbidding it, of course.
yeah, i said legalistic. if you’re saying it’s not ok to kiss the new girl before you walk over and tell the old girl, but it *is* ok to make the promises to the new girl before you _check off the checkbox_, you’re making a distinction which is only a distinction in text.
also, if your sense of morality centers on how other people should conduct their lives, you might want to get that checked out.
A somewhat interesting development, but have to say it doesn’t feel that real.
The way Jacob is behaving here makes me feel he either has no actual sex drive (which would make him an ace), or at least no genuine interest in either his current girlfriend or Joyce.
It feels weird. The comic feel like how people claim, and maybe even think they’re wired, rather than how real people behave.
Not sure I get this. People set their sex drives aside for other things all the time, and if a specific individual doesn’t they should learn that a) they can and b) they should.
Yeah, I don’t see that at all. It’s also pretty reductionist, setting sex drive as the only interest.
He’s not uninterested, he’s upset with Joyce. But also with himself and what he’s learned about his motivations for dating Raidah.
Well, we’re talking about people in their late teens. I didn’t mean sex drive is the only determining factor. I just meant this doesn’t feel like Jacob is ultimately that keen on Joyce. He’s still operating on a very abstract, intellectual level here. Maybe demisexual rather than ace then.
I mean, I once told my brother when we were at Pizza Hut that the crushed red pepper flakes tasted like strawberries thinking he’d try a little and get and nasty surprise, and instead he upends the thing into his mouth and shrieks and my mortified mother drags us out of the restaurant and we didn’t get pizza that night which when you’re eight is like having Christmas canceled.
They (Jacob and Joyce) just had lunch at a pizza joint…
….But I think Jacob probably would feel a bit off-put by Walky’s habit of scarfing down 50 nuggets. And without nuggets, life is not worth living for Walky.
I was talking about how Walky was willing to, and I quote, “go down on a dude” for free Galasso’s pizza during the Dina-centric chapter. But you do raise a good point about nuggets.
Mine
1. No red flags
2. No addictions
3. Siblings don’t have concerns.
4. Parents don’t have legitimate concerns.
5. Don’t expect me to adult for two
6. I like them
1) Likes birds
2) Has a favourite bird they can name within 5 seconds (Silkie chicken!!)
3) Identifies as male
4) Respects my materialism at important gift-dates of the year. (Happy winter gift-date!)
She asks him. Option 1: He says yes! They date! Option 2: He says no. They don’t date.
She doesn’t ask him. Only 1 option: They don’t date.
She lies & manipulates. Result: He doesn’t want to date her anymore.
Whatever the other person’s feelings, being honest about your own and asking about theirs is very often the best choice. You have the no, you might get the yes. (Yes I have been there and I have been turned down more than once. Still glad that I laid it on the table.)
Exactly.
I mean, often if there are no formal barriers (like another relationship), it’s good to spend some flirty time building an emotional connection first before laying it on the table.
Better perhaps, but this recontextualizes the kiss as a bit of “what might have been”. This was the only time the kiss could have worked, so it wasn’t a matter of just postponing it 5 minutes, like we were thinking yesterday.
Still bad form, but for me it’s even more forgivable. And much better narratively.
Yeah…IMO, this is the worst of the three ways it could happen.
Last bit without the kiss – Jacob is refusing to let Joyce profit from the lies, but not twisting the knife.
Kiss without the last bit – potentially could follow an arc similar to Billie/Ruth (bad start, dysfunction for ages, realizing they messed up and trying to fix it).
This…remove the ‘not’ above.
Honestly, this felt to me like he realized mid-kiss. Like, maybe he leaned in thinking they’d date and this would be nice, but then the kiss felt wrong and it fell into place.
I do hope he comes back later after some time apart from Raidah and considers giving it a second try. And, you know, giving Joyce an apology. Kissing her? Arguably fine. Calling out her crush and then shutting her down on the grounds of lying to his brother and putting him in an awkward position? Also, arguably, fine. But both, one after the other? …Kind of a dick move. :/ If he can realize that and apologize, and Joyce can apologize for putting him in that position with his brother, they could possibly work out in the future. But otherwise… probably best to let this one lie.
Welp, now I’m REALLY looking forward to Jacob explaining to his brother why he’s suddenly split up with Joyce. But hey, Harrison will be proud of him no matter what, right?
Oof indeed. After reading this comic I couldn’t get Bob Jovi’s You Give Love A Bad Name out of my head.
Shot through the heart
And you’re to blame
Darlin’, you give love a bad name
An angel’s smile is what you sell
You promise me heaven, then put me through hell
Chains of love got a hold on me
When passion’s a prison, you can’t break free
She’s doing the best she can from a kind of messed up starting point, and pretty much everyone is going to have some less good stuff to accept. Maybe Jacob will accept it more over time, maybe not.
I agree. Kissing her and then explaining why they should be together was unecessary from him. It also proves that Harrison was right about Jacob’s obsession with checklists.
I think it was necessary. He needed to get across to Joyce that it was the behavior, not any lack of attraction and that did so viscerally.
Just walking away and breaking up with Raidah wouldn’t work.
Yes it would have.
I have expressed myself elsewhere and won’t do it here, apart to say that what Jacob just did was disgusting and I hope he never darken’s Joyce’s life again.
He’s got some qualities that would land on other people’s Minus Some Stuff columns himself. He’s processing this all as fast as he can, I think he’ll realize that part during some introspection later.
Well shit, there goes Joyce’s chances to make a mulatto flavored baby with Jacob. This is such a let down it almost feel like I’m the one getting my heartbroken.
Yeesh. These few comments read super weird. I’m imagining them with any other word about race or ethnicity, and the, “just make sure you know the people amongst whom you use it.” comes off as very, “Don’t be racist unless you know it’s okay in X setting.” Even though I don’t think that was your intent. Still reads odd.
It’s just as easy to say mixed-, or multi-. I’m mixed and have been using “mutt” since middle school, light-heartedly. I wouldn’t describe someone else that way, though, because it would probably be insulting. And that’s fine.
To try to explain myself —
1) I don’t think the word is racist in and of itself.
2) I do know that some people do.
3) Hence my statement — know your audience. If I am with someone I know does consider the word offensive, I don’t use it. (and by the way — who is the final arbiter? Who gets to make the decision that “this word good; that word bad” that all of us must accept and follow?)
I do actually. It’s my job. It is bad. Don’t use it.
Really, no one does. You just look around one day and realize that the people a term refers to complain about it (or at least about outsiders using it) and that the people arguing that they really should be able to use are mostly assholes.
Honestly most of the reason I’m not sure about mulatto is that I’ve seen/heard it used so rarely in recent decades I don’t have any frame of reference for reactions.
It’s the first smart thing he’s done in several strips. And the saddest thing is if some of this smartness had been moved a few strips earlier to him and Joyce things may have gone so much better.
Although if you’re gonna tell Joyce it’s not working out with either of them, maybe kissing her’s not the greatest way in the world, especially since you still have a girlfriend you gotta dump.
Also – Joyce minus some stuff, huh? So, uh…Lucy’s single in this universe.
old versions didn’t really give you much room especially with very strict DMs, 5e paladins are much better done and give way more options to be interesting RP
I feel he is being unfair in the second panel. Telling someone how you feel about them while they’re in an apparently-happy relationship with someone else is bad form. Her only socially-acceptable choice was to wait until he and Raidah broke up for their own reasons.
Considering how much hate Joyce got in chat for wanting to break Raidah and Jacob up so she could be with him, and to then have Jacob turn round and say, “Hey, if you’d tried to break us up it prolly would have worked” the poor girl just can’t win.
As Nymphie says below, there’s a big difference between “trying to break us up” and just telling him how you feel. Joyce wasn’t being honest then either.
Eh, telling someone how you feel when they’re in a relationship isnt as bad as sneakily trying to put a wedge between the couple to break them up so you then can make a move once they’re split.
The latter is trying to manipulate the situation for your own benefit without consideration to anyone else.
The first is to put all cards on the table, and then people can do what they want with the information. “I’m sorry, tell me what i can do to make it easier for you to move on” could have been one alternative of what she would have gotten from a confession like that, and if he would have wanted to be with her instead… Had it been kinder to never give him the choice?
Is she though? She can name at least three people off the top of her head she likes and willingly spends time with, she’s ina pretty good place right now.
No way her relationship with Jacob isn’t heavily changed after this.
Sarah is ironically enough the overarching “villain” of this story (she pointed Joyce at Jacob), and holy shit do I hope Raidah and Jacob never find that out.
I think it’s pretty interesting, because rather than focusing on the external drama — Raidah trying to get revenge or Jacob dating Joyce, but winding up flirting with other girls, for example, it turns internal with everything falling on Joyce dealing with her own behavior losing what she’d hoped to gain.
So why kiss her if theres nothing going to happen?! Jesus! Are we all stupid at that age? I know I was stupid, but is this a general thing? Just acknowledging your feelings but also acknowledging that you both shouldn’t be together would have worked out in the story!
Willis is hammering the “Dumbing” of age pretty good. All this pessimism makes me question why I continue to read, but then I remember he is good telling jokes and drawing porn.
Not being one to take the actions of cartoon characters as blanket statements about human nature, but rather commentary on a few particular flavors of it, I read that less as pessimism and more as truth in advertising.
To some extent? Yeah. The prefrontal cortex (the part that helps with long term planning, executive function, and “HEY. HEY. THIS IMPULSE IS A BAD IDEA. DO NOT DO THE THING”) does not fully develop until (*on average*) 25.
Because he really wanted to kiss her and there wouldn’t be another chance?
Because he wanted her to know he was attracted to her and it wasn’t that blocking her chance?
The true endgame will probably be Walky x Joyce and I will be there like “I knew it” while sipping wine and waiting to get my own money to see the slipshines made by Willis.
This is a hard call for Jacob, but stepping aside and re-evaluating after he’s cleanly broken it off with Raidah makes a lot more sense.
While I’m another one of those Joe/Joyce interested parties, I would’ve liked to see things with Jacob stick for a while. Human interaction is messy, even if you have strong morals and ground rules about infidelity.
Of course, the Joe/Joyce dynamic could be more rewarding, if played in the “Jewish Romance” narrative style (where internal conflict/denial of one’s feelings is eventually resolved, a la “Empire Strikes Back”). However, that would require more of Joe around.
Huh, my prediction was that they’d hook up, and then there would be an arc that makes Raidah more sympathetic so we care that they’re being so shitty to her.
I’ll say it, despite the church affinity and some physical chemistry, Jacob and Joyce and poorly suited as romantic partners. Not least because Joyce obviously has a repressed sexuality raging to get out and Jacob, by his own admission, wants to be with someone who doesn’t sexualize him. It would have ended in tears if they’d got together and I’m relieved we didn’t have wait it out till that point.
That’s a very good point. I kinda wanted to see them together so Joyce could get to a point where *she* begs for intimacy and is turned down by Jacob. That would be something to watch.
Oh well, Joyce is going to have to find a different outlet for her wayward horniness. Maybe this starts the Joe/Joyce vibes again?
I think Jacob’s anti-sexualization thing is overemphasized. I don’t think he’s against partners being physically attracted to him and sexually interested, just against that being the only thing between them.
By kissing her he can say to Raidah that he’s breaking up with her because he kissed another girl, I guess. Rather than because he pretended another girl was his girlfriend.
I feel like that’s a little unfair. She panicked when confronted with brother and baby and the assumption of all the things she wanted, but she did try to do the right thing later at the restaurant and it was Jacob who was the impetus there to keep the charade going.
I don’t for one second buy that Joyce had any pre-meditated master plan when she walked over to see a baby on a whim. I don’t even buy that she had time to think “Oh, this is Jacob’s brother, and he thinks I’m his girlfriend, I will definitely be able to masterfully manipulate this situation to achieve my goals.”
I think the sum total of her thought process was “Me girlfriend? Durr hurr me like me say yes”. Which her rational brain immediately tried to walk back and escape from less than a minute later. This isn’t mastermind behavior.
I hadn’t thought they might get back together. I suspect if they do, now, it’ll be more toxic than it would’ve been before Jacob pulled this “You’re not good enough for me” line on her.
Jacob can’t really take back what he said. So if Jacob does crawl back it’ll be basically Jacob saying “I’m not good enough to have the girlfriend i deserve, who’s upright enough not to lie and/or make me want to lie. So, since I’m garbage, you’ll do.”
So… this is dumbing of age… maybe they’ll meet up on Garbage Roof (at least metaphorically) and start dating. But I’m not sure I want to see that happen at this point.
Alternatively, for us optimists –
-Joyce reacts to the wake-up call and grows. She makes a real effort to understand and respect boundaries.
-Jacob takes time to reflect on what HE did, as well, and how lying and going with the flow to please his brother cost him so much. He resolves to be more of his own person in the future.
-Raidah hurts, and the emotional pain and loneliness gives her some insight into other people’s pain. She stops her harrassment of Sarah and becomes generally more empathetic.
-Sarah is torn between relief and guilt. She understands that revenge is not the healthiet way forward.
-Joe is relieved by the Joycob ship sinking and realizes he’s into the fundie girl for real. He suddenly understands that there are several ways not to ‘be his father’; casual sex, open relationships, monogamy, … It’s not the sex, it’s the honesty that’s important to him.
-Dina goes to eat cereal with Riley.
THE END
Oof well that crashed and burned faster than anticipated. Also, yikes on bikes Jacob, you don’t want any person you date in the future to hear that your checklist is Joyce minus some things b.c it just means you want to date your perception of Joyce but are now too morally conflicted b.c you know she’s a whole person, no?
Someone more like Joyce than Raidah, but not starting off the relationship by lying and making me lie?
That’s not really “know she’s a whole person”, that’s “screwed you over on the first date”.
I once had a girl break up with me before I even told her I was interested. I’d only spoken directly to her a day before. This was like… almost 15 years ago?
Apparently, asking someone to hold off sending any further NSFW selfies until after waking hours can be interpreted as calling them “easy”? *shrugs*
Makes me wonder if Joyce is going to attribute it not working as retribution for her not going to church. Idk if she thinks that way. Either way, I feel for both Jacob and Joyce
I’d just like to point out that the chronology implied by the sequence of strips means that this kiss lasted for the entire duration of Carla’s elevator conversation with Harrison
While hearing that might be pretty distressing for Joyce, I think it’s fair. He did realize that he was genuinely attracted to Joyce rather than to Raidah which he dated because of social expectations. But, he also realized that they were a bad influence on each other. So I think what he means is: thanks for helping me discover my type but I need someone who is both my type and doesn’t go full on psycho mode on me because of repressed sexuality.
Am I the only one who think s this is a rotten move on Jacobs part? First you kiss someone and then you tell them why it isn’t going to work out? (And doing it while you are still in a relationship no less). And to mentian a checklist to tell her she is almost good enough? This is not some deserved comeupponce. It is just mean.
This seems a lot worse then the initial lie Joyce told.
Kissing her totally not ok, but I think the checklist comment is basically just re-stating what he said first. That things could have worked out if she’d not pulled some serious red flags out about how deceptive she can be when she wants something. Which is a pretty fair thing to not want in a romantic partner?
I mean Joyce didin’t make a mistake, she made a bad choice. And don’t get me wrong, Jacob also made bad choices, but “I want someone who fits me romantically AND also is honest” is not some unreasonable bar. I would also be totally understanding if Joyce were to say “Well I like Jacob but the fact that he cheated on his girlfriend raises too many red flags for me to date him”. There’s not really something wrong with not wanting to be someones partner because they have behaviors you don’t want in a partner.
I mean it is still a reasonable bar, but yeah you are totally right that kissing her is a completely dickish thing to do right before cutting off the possibility of a relationship. It was a shitty move. And he didn’t need to double down after he already told her why he didn’t want to date her.
Let’s not forget she tried to run away from the situation after she let the lie slide the first time. She’s impulsive, yes, but she did try and rectify the situation–twice–with the limited tools she has.
Running away isn’t “rectifying the situation”, it’s escaping it. In both cases it would still have left Jacob holding the bag, trying to explain to Harrison what just happened. Either covering for Joyce or throwing her under the bus.
It’s actually kind of impressive. Joyce literally lied and manipulated her way into this situation and yet somehow Jacob *still* managed to be end up being being the biggest dick inolved. Good going, Jacob.
It really is a terrible thing for him to do. From my perspective, Jacob is going through a huge personal crisis here. Jacob grew up in his brother’s shadow. Jacob from what we have seen is constantly doing what is expected of him. Once college hits, he is away from home and yet still doing what is expected. We’re missing a big part explaining how he came to get together with Radiah, but from the limited evidence it shows that she fit the profile of an expected girlfriend.
Enter Joyce, the girl that is obviously struggling to find her own way but always keeps a brave public appearance up. The girl that appears kind to always support her friends (Sarah) even when everyone else pushes them away. The girl that was extremely flirty with him opposed to Raidah’s more serious personality.
Joyce may have been the first crush that Jacob actually wanted. The evidence supporting this is how Harrison didn’t even know Raidah’s first name yet he knew Joyce’s life story. Joyce is the girl always on Jacob’s mind.
Unfortunately, his expectations come first. The “I need to break up with Raidah” was a breakthrough. Short lived though as he dove back into his checklists. A tragedy all around.
And to the people asking why Jacob would kiss her right before hitting the brakes, I’m right there with you. I had an ex who, in the middle of us making out heavily, broke the kiss to break up with me. Like, idk if it was some kind of test or power play, or completely earnest, but it gave me whiplash.
inb4: it wasn’t the same situation as with Joyce, there was no deception or cheating, just they came out of nowhere with it and never gave me much justification for breaking it off or why they waited until we were making out.
Happened to me too, it’s pretty cruel. My last ex, when he broke up with me for the first time, came over with the intention of dumping me but decided to get a last round of sex in first.
…In hindsight, that was probably a pretty big red flag indicating I should not have taken him back.
Okay, two things. Firstly, is Harrison actually married? Of course theres a baby and in-laws, but we have no evidence of a wife, do we? Secondly, now that Jacob has taken himself out of the picture, can I now ship Harrison and Joyce? He already seems quite taken with her and he’s everything Jacob wants to be already, so I can see Joyce being exstatically happy with such a relationship.
Well obviously there WAS a wife, I mean…baby? But he’s Jacob’s brother, how big of an age gap can there be? Gotta give it to you on the maturity call though. Okay, fine. Ship was broken up on the stocks but I’m allowed to dream.
From my father’s first marriage, there’s an age gap between my oldest sister and I of seventeen years. From my father’s current marriage (of which I am the oldest child), there’s an age gap of eighteen years between myself and my youngest brother.
The age gap is clearly enough for Harrison to be a fully-trained and qualified lawyer who was in practice in significant roles before Carla grew about a foot taller, whereas Jacob is in the first half of the first semester of his first year. It’s at least about twelve years.
Was Harrison a big figure in the overturn of whatever it was, or was he just one of the minor legal flunkies? I think the phrasing before was that he was “on the team.”
Would he be identified as a major figure in the case by people not connected to him?
Okay, so we’ve concluded no one actually knows whether Harrisons wife is still alive and theres actually no evidence on which to base his age? Excellent!
How does that song from The Sound of Music go? “I need someone older and wiser showing me what to do”? I think that was one of the lines that bugged me most about that song, and they were talking about a year’s age gap!
I’m so glad Maria’s advice was basically a nice way of saying ‘Honey, RUN’. (Okay, fine, it was more like ‘just wait a year or two’ but considering the circumstances, it may as well have been ‘Honey, RUN’). Especially when you remember he goes Nazi.
I think it’d be a nice interpretation to make that song super tongue-in-cheek. He might actually think he’s older and wiser, but she’s teasing him: ‘you silly, we’re basically the same age.’
I didn’t except this..
I don’t think Joyce would be a good girlfriend for basically anyone right now, so he probably did the right thing. But the reasoning is interesting. Yes, it’s a bad start, but not unrecoverable. Seems that Jacobs girlfriend is measured against some high moral standards.
Also, kissing her while there is a girlfriend waiting for you next room and then telling her this? That’s not exactly good behaviour, too.
Ugh.
I agree that he and Joyce *shouldn’t* be dating. I even agree that he had a right to call her out on lying to his brother.
(Though frankly, he could have played the whole thing off as a joke pretty early on, rather than dragging it out to the point where he had to tell what he considers to be a big lie.)
But a big part (at least half!) of why he shouldn’t be dating Joyce is because, right now, he clearly needs to stop, and reevaluate his priorities, and because NOBODY should jump right into a new relationship immediately upon ending a previous one. (Whether or not they’re right for each other otherwise, is a judgement I’ll leave up to the shippers.)
And finally… kissing her was a d*ck move, no matter which way you look at it.
He shouldn’t have kissed her while he was still in a relationship with someone else. He shouldn’t have kissed her when he suspected she had feelings that he was about to crush. And he shouldn’t have kissed her just to prove a flipping point.
Also – I find kind of odd that nobody else seems to be noticing that, until he kissed her, she was trying to convince him that his relationship with Raidah is still intact, and that he doesn’t need to break up with her.
Agreed 100%, what Jacob did was shitty and Joyce was trying to do the right thing. Also, Jacob doesn’t get to blame Joyce for HIS choice to lie to Harrison because him liking her and deciding to lie is not her fault.
Because she genuinely cares for the dude and didn’t mean to cause a massive stuff-up in his life.
Whether or not she re-evaluates how much she wishes him well in light of him kissing her then telling her it’s not going to happen because she’s a liar *which is really hypocritical right after he has deliberately taken action to betray his girlfriend’s trust in his commitment to their relationship AND her faith in him as a non-usey nice guy who she can feel safe crushing on because he isn’t like not-Ryan* remains to be seen.
I can see the girl feeling really upset – not just in a heartbroken way, but in a “this guy I felt safe with and thought I could trust has deliberately hurt me, in a sexual manner” which… With her hang-ups from her upbringing and her trauma..? Yikes…
This may push her back to not being able to spend any time alone in a public place
Looking at it from that angle, this entire scene feels properly skeevy. Nobody comes out of it looking particularly good, but Jacob hasn’t done a single thing to make himself look any better.
Well, he is breaking up with Raidah, so that’s a step to looking better. Certainly would be worse if everything else went down the same, but he didn’t follow through on that.
Yikes. This helped me put my finger on what bugs me about this strip so much. Because all the time, including the brunch right now, Jacob acted around Joyce like The Nice Guy (TM) and then suddenly, on a drop of a dime, came this moment of outright cruelty. Yes, she messed up, but this is too much. Kissing her and then telling her she is not good enough for him and rubbing in her face that if she behaved differently, she could have what she wanted (which is bullshit, because without all this mess, he would still be hung up on his old checklist and wouldn’t even consider her). Nasty. Plus, she offered to explain the whole situation and he said no.
I suck at estimating people’s character and take everything at face value so someone acting always kind and then suddenly switching in a cruel mode is one of the worst social-situation nightmares and a deep betrayal for me.
I have some friends who are kind, but can put a foot in their mouth in a hurtful way- but I know about this and I’m emotionally prepared for that possibility. If someone is consistently super nice and then… is suddenly the opposite, that gives me the heebie-jeebies.
I mean, dude is probably in a state of a deep emotional confusion and not at his best right now, and it’s kinda understandable that he may want to lash out… But still, ouch.
No, sorry, that was a dick move. I don’t need a happy ever after, but don’t kiss her and then reject her. I know a bunch of people are thrilled that Joyce ‘learns a lesson’ here, but come on
She tried to come clean, and he told her no, cuz he was enjoying himself. That’s him actively making the choice to lie to Harrison at that point. She tried to do what he’s doing now, and bow out of his life. The fact that he is doing it now isn’t him taking the moral high ground, it’s him saying ‘You wanted to leave on your terms, but I needed the last word.’ Any respect I had for Jacob is gone
Anybody think his checklist stuff IS a result of his impulsiveness and he’s just not aware yet? Could be he finally ditches the checklist, then spirals out of control?
Like everybody else, I’m pissed about Jacob starting this conversation with the kiss. And also, isn’t this Joyce’s first real kiss? Like EVER? That makes it 1000000000000x worse. I liked Jacob until now. A kiss as an intro to a “not gonna work out” is bad for anybody, but for a girl from a world where kissing before you’re practically engaged is “edgy,” this is incredibly serious and nasty.
Yeeeah, I was coming to say basically this. Like I was pissed about my first real kiss being without any warning, and I wasn’t (quite) as First Kiss Is Sacred as Joyce’s background. And on top of that, at least said first kiss led to me being in a relationship (which tbh I didn’t really want but I’d convinced myself I did so that’s beside the point). This was just… a biiig jerk move.
Joyce was all beating herself up back in the day over her thing with Ethan, specifically, being her first kiss – so this thing with Jacob wasn’t that. First kiss where there was mutual attraction involved, maybe.
I agree. I’m happy that Joyce’s lying wasn’t validated. But Jacob lied too. And the kiss was just mean, though it wasn’t meant that way. They both have fucked up here.
Jep (though I think her and Ethan also kissed. But this was the first kiss that promised real potential for a relationship) – kinda reminds me of my last break up (nothing parallel, just the being ‘nice’ to someone before breaking up).
This will hurt and I won’t be surprised if Joyce will devolve into a crying mess soon after this.
I reckon it’s the first real kiss in that it was the first kiss she had where both she (and her kissing partner) really enjoyed it and finally felt some of that magic that a proper kiss is supposed to feel like. The kind of kiss where, for once, the universe just feels right; and if everything could be frozen in time forever, that’d be just great, thank you.
Something tells me that, by the end of this strip, Joyce is wondering just how big a series of mistakes that she may have made here. I mean ‘polluted beginnings’ and all that but, also, I’m not sure if someone with her neuroses would be entirely happy with someone whose own neuroses might reinforce hers!
Meanwhile…
RAIDAH: “Did you steal my boyfriend?”
JOYCE: “Could you get back to me on that? I’m not sure right now!”
You called the strip “Dumbing” of age for a reason. Why did you have to make Jacob smart right now?
Seriously, I’m really sad about this. Poor Joyce. “You could have had what you want, but you did the thing wrong, so now (when it’s too late) we’ll tell you what rule you broke.”
I’m not saying she did the right thing. But… so close!… and then failure at the last instant, after she had every reason to think she’d reached her goal. I do know how that feels.
These aren’t obscure rules she should have needed to be warned about. In fact, she was warned about them.
This blowing up in her face was inevitable from from the very beginning of her attempts to break Jacob and Raidah up. Exactly how it would play out and how close she’d get wasn’t of course.
“Hey, we should drop the act and come clean.”
“No.” *arm around shoulder*
“Well, we should at least tell your girlfriend.”
“No.” *smooch*
“Wait, so does this mean you’re basically dumping her to date me?”
“No.” *mopey absconding*
Exactly, Jacob has more blam in this specific situation than Joyce because she tried to fix it and he kept putting it off and then blamed her for his choice.
My opinion on the Jacob kiss is that as long as he is going to break up with Raidah that very moment and it’s not a deceptive thing, it’s okay. The breakup is when he decides its over (or she does). But this? This was just emotionally manipulative to Joyce.
“The breakup is when he decides its over” ? Not quite though. I mean for me personnally, there isn’t a big difference between playing houses with Joyce and kissing her, but in both cases Raidah has not been updated. The breakup requires both parties to be aware of it, otherwise it’s cheating.
Granted, sometimes you just get emotions and do stupid things and it’s forgiveable, but it’s still cheating until Breakup Document have been served to the opposing party.
Harrison: Hey bro where’s Joyce?
Jacob: Oh, she’s not my girlfriend, we were both lying about that. Which is why I kissed her, told her I have strong feelings for her, then strongly implied we will never be together because of some of her negative qualities and will now go break up with my real girlfriend who I have been stringing along and don’t like that much.
Harrison: what the F***?!?
Jacob: saying that out loud, I want to interject that each of these individual steps seemed mostly right at the time.
I think they could possibly do some introspection, process all the things that happened, then in a while go into Repair Mode and Forgiveness Mode and decide to start things off on the right foot and try a real kiss later in the future.
Joyce is about to realise she’s been looking in all the wrong places. She’ll get upstairs, think some things over, and by the time Dina’s party is getting properly started, Joyce and Dorothy are gonna be making out in the broom closet. I’m sure there’ve been no steps skipped, here.
… Well, I certainly wasn’t expecting this turn of events. I feel really bad for Joyce because I suspect she’ll take this rejection HARD, but at the same time, I can understand why Jacob might have misgivings getting into a relationship with Joyce under this kind of beginning. It would create a lot of bad blood between him and Raidah, and also create a lot of potential repercussions in his social circles.
What I REALLY hope, however, is that this doesn’t lead into “How Jacob became a sex addict, DoA-verse version.”
Not if we go by Roomies!, it wasn’t – plus I recall a line from Walky to the effect of saying that a very similar storyline, i.e. Joyce betting Joe Walky that he’d cry watching the movie, played out “off-screen” in DoA.
(Imperial) We feel that the Joyce of Roomies was somewhat older, and allowed to make her own choices at that point. As well as having less restrictive parents.
-This- Joyce was not even allowed to watch “Frozen”. Much less, We assume, a movie in which a woman is cheating on her fiancé and having premarital hanky-panky (not to mention the on-screen nudity). Especially since Jesus doesn’t even show up in the end to condemn her to Hell for all eternity; the final scene being one where the earth opens up and she falls into a hole full of flames.
I’d be on board but if Jacob ever cheated on her (i mean even beyond all this, he has a history or making his girlfriends jealous) I’d have to invent a way to travel into the comic to kill him
I had the same thought. At first, I was so angry at Jacob for that line, cause like, people aren’t checklists. You can’t just magically expect to find someone who fits every bullet point, without accepting a few bullet points you didn’t want. Life doesn’t work like that. People don’t work like that.
Well, the checklist isn’t really out of the blue. We’ve known he’s got a checklist for awhile now, even before the scene with Harrison. Given that, it’s really just a way to say “I’ve changed what I’m looking for and it would be you – if it wasn’t for the whole lying thing.”
Frankly Joyce deserves to lose her shot at Jacob for putting him in that position.
Jacob didn’t have to kiss her though. Damn, dude. Harsh.
Also, I don’t think a list of what you want in a partner is creepy at all – it’s important to know what kind of person you want to be with and what your deal-breaker things are. A checklist just formalizes it.
Like for me the kind of person I am with has to align with me on my core values and morals. And a deal-breaker is abuse.
Jacob found out that what he thought he wanted wasn’t what he actually wanted. That’s growing up.
He also figured out that manipulation and dishonesty are deal-breaker things. I can’t fault him for that.
Can and do fault him for leading Joyce on with the kiss but he’s probably a bit PO’d. Shitty thing to do but understandable.
Frankly Joyce deserves to lose her shot at Jacob for putting him in that position.
Well, let’s be real here. Joyce is horny. But she is nowhere near where she could turn this into a component of a working relationship. Pulling the brakes on what would have ended up a train wreck on first approach is not actually doing her a disfavor in the long run.
PO’d and really wanting to kiss her and psyching himself up to tell her it’s not going to happen and psyching himself up to tell Raidah and wanting her to know it’s not that he’s not attracted, but the lying specifically. Dude’s conflicted.
Hm! I had “Jacob fails to break up with Raidah,” but I considered going with “Carla blabs something about Joyce, Raidah, and/or Jacob that demolishes the lie.” “Jacob’s kiss was actually a kiss-off” was nowhere in my betting pool.
I realize Jacob is having a crisis of conscience which, for him, is as much a source of angst as Joyce’s crisis of faith, so it’s not really fair to critique his timing when he’s this out of control… but goddamn, man, there is a way to nonverbally signal “I like you, but this can never happen,” and that is not it.
Yeah. That is about the direction I hoped this went. He realized he needed to be his own man and not model himself after his brother. And Joyce gets a consequence for her actions. Let’s move on from this cringe of a storyline now? HEY?! WHAT has Leslie been up to?!!
Also, don’t shift part of the blame of your lying on Joyce. She’s done enough wrong through this whole shitshow that she doesn’t need to shoulder part of YOUR wrongdoings.
Wow, talk about “Everybody Sucks Here”. I can’t find any sympathy for either Jacob or Raidah at this point. One is a giant hypocrite (YOU WENT ALONG WITH THIS CHARADE, YOU CHODEBAG) who defines himself almost entirely by his brother’s approval, and the other is a careerist alpha-b*tch who doesn’t really see him as anything other than a stepping stone for her professional advancement. They’ll do well in the legal profession, I’m sure.
I feel sorry for Joyce to some degree, and as much as giving her hope and then dashing it with that kiss is unnecessarily cruel, I think it’s a useful lesson on boundaries, consequences, etc. for her.
Did she lie? She already told Jacob and his brother that their entire relationship was just a ploy for her to get to the baby, which is what she did. I really was liking Jacob though, but he turned out to be human too, and human’s always have a way of disappointing us. That’s why I stick with cats.
That wicked cackle I heard in my dreams? I was SO sure it was my neighbors prepping for Halloween (an activity i am engaged in myself, so I approved) but…
So Jacob SAYS if she were honest it probably would have worked? That’s bullspit cuz he probably wouldn’t have broken up with Radiah because she fits his brothers list so why would he entertain Joyce’s feelings? The only reason he entertained it cuz his brother was proud he colored outside the lines and didn’t follow his example and was his own man. So his honesty is best was a bullspit answer and wouldn’t have changed anything because HIS BROTHER’S opinion matters more than his feelings and that of Joyce’s or Radiah’s feelings.
The last thing we see him say that might be relevant* is while they’re still at the table: “It was fun playing pretend for a little bit though.” With a definite concerned look on his face.
Maybe he was still sorting things out, rather than deliberately messing with her.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. He was considering his feelings for Joyce only AFTER his brother approved of her. It would not have “worked out” before.
And I must admit I though Jacob would be good for Joyce until this strip, but this made me rapidly reevaluate.
I’ve been upset about this comic all day – like, it has legit been bothering me while I drive places – and I finally figured out why.
This is gas-lighting.
Earlier, Joyce apologized for her actions and offered to come clean and then stay away from Jacob forever.
JACOB then indicated that A) she should stay, and more importantly B) that he still liked her and wanted her to be part of his life. As a friend.
Then Jacob kissed her. To any reasonable person, this indicates sexual and/or romantic interest.
Then, Jacob immediately turns around and tells her that she isn’t good enough for him.
He is emotionally jerking her around, cruelly, for no damn reason.
If he wasn’t going to date her, he shouldn’t have given her the false hope of the kiss. That is cruel and only serves to mess with her head.
Also, I would point out that he wanted her to “be in his life” when it served fooling his brother but dropped her immediately after Harrison got on that elevator.
So yeah, what I’ve been feeling is extreme anger at Jacob for screwing with Joyce’s head, manipulating her to his ends and then cruelly hurting her.
After this, I don’t think I want Joyce anywhere near Jacob – he’s clearly a psychopath. Mike should take notes – he has clearly met his match.
Please. Jacob’s clearly conflicted here, not trying to screw with her. Here Joyce created the situation and he just stumbled around in it. I don’t think he can really be blamed for not sticking with indicating he wanted her to stay – he was likely still sorting out his feelings right then. The kiss is arguably crappy, but it certainly does indicate his sexual and romantic interest. Which exists, even if he’s not going to follow through with it. Again, conflicted.
I also don’t really see it as her not being good enough for him, but as he says “shouldn’t have started this way”.
Jacob’s certainly not covering himself with glory here, but I don’t think it’s intentionally gaslighting. Certainly not psychopathic. Nor nearly Mike’s level. Mike would have set this all up for that purpose.
I do think it’s significant that he kissed Joyce when his brother was gone. I read it as his succumbing, selfishly, to plain and simple desire, a moment of respite from the pangs of a guilty conscience (he’s deceived both Harrison AND Raidah). Jacob is conflicted between what he really wants and how he wants to be perceived — a pretty common conundrum for the kids in this comic. And yes, this conflict made him act in a shitty way towards Joyce in this instance. It’s shitty. It’s also human. He’s his own worst enemy here and Joyce is suffering some of the splashback. This is nowhere near the same thing as deliberate manipulation.
Yeah, whether intentionally or not it was all a giant mind fuck and messed up. The kiss was just skeevy, especially considering Joyce’s sexual trauma history.
I agree mostly, but I really don’t think Jacob is a psychopath. The kiss+ walk-away is asshole behaviour for sure and I agree that he is cruelly jerking Joyce around, but I don’t think that’s psychopathic.
Or even intentional/ conscious in any way, but of course that doesn’t make it less hurtful.
I feel like it’s important to note that gas-lighting refers specifically to manipulating someone by psychological means into questioning their own sanity. That’s not what Jacob is doing here. He clearly seems to be struggling with his own behavior and Joyce’s. I agree that he’s been emotionally jerking her around and that the kiss in particular was really insensitive and cruel, and that it’s unfair to put so much of this situation on Joyce when she’s already offered to come clean and fix things. But Jacob isn’t really gaslighting here.
He’s definitely hurting her, but I doubt he’s doing it on purpose. Young adults and teenagers are emotional, and lash out without rationally thinking stuff through. Even doing stuff that can be easily read as manipulative, or even be misleading or manipulative, while not actually intending it to be (which is the difference to a psychopath, or other kinds of people who emotionally or psychologically manipulate).
Also I get why Jacob isn’t being the most rational right now. He lied to his brother, he’s gonna lose his girlfriend, and likely lose a friend as well. This sucks, for everybody.
I do agree with people here saying that this isn’t just him being a dick but more of an emotional kid response. I’m just annoyed with all the credit he seems to be getting in the comments overall.
The kissing her when he’s probably already made up his mind is pretty dickish. He’s finally letting himself do what he wants but reigning himself in but at the same time completely ignoring how Joyce feels about the whole thing.
Then there’s what he says to Joyce. The this isn’t how it should of happened/you just should of told me is a combination of BS and get over it. 1. Her just telling him how she feels ignores the entire debate they had when they were stuck together at the restaurant. 2. This isn’t how it should of happened thing get over it if you really like her deal with it she lied to your brother and you apparently do to because of how much you like her and you can’t get past or work through it BS.
The next thing that bothers me is how he puts the blame for his lying to his brother on her. I don’t know if I even believe he did that because he liked her I find it just as plausible he did it because he just really wanted to avoid an awkward situation with his brother.
Beyond all this whatever I ship Joyce and Joe anyway.
Currently waiting for Joyce to go and talk to Joe about all this. A sort of “you were right, but also wrong, and now everything sucks, and I should probably have listened to you”.
Give me more Joyce/Joe heart-to-hearts!
I also ship them but I feel like it won’t ever actually happen. I can dream, though.
I was dating a guy who wanted me to break up with him & had started upping his dick game so that he wouldn’t have to do it himself. I met a really cute guy & kissed him & hung out with him for a few days. When I realized that the kiss wasn’t just a little flirtation I broke up with my boyfriend so I could kiss him again without guilt. This was almost 13 years ago. I’m now married & have a child with the cute guy I kissed.
Sometimes we start things wrong. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we have the wrong person, just that we have some growing to do. We became better people together. I am no longer that person. I wouldn’t behave like that now, but I do have a lot of empathy for this situation & it makes me sad.
Hmm. Even more annoyed now. Its rude to sudden kiss someone (regardless of situation apparent obvious feelings).
More so to kiss someone and then immediately “nope” out.
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Well, my name is Pat McHoarney and I draw 69 Mouse-Ear Blvd, a multigenerational story about women who all have sexy legs and probably other features. There was a grandmother, but she wasn't hot and so she died off-panel.
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Gran... IS ALIVE?
okay, juliette still has brown hair, so this is probably definitely a flashback
i'm just surprised that the comic has remembered her, at all
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Over the last few weeks of this storyline, I and other have been called virgins, puritans, immature, and judgemental, but my absolute favorite has to be legalistic.
We are discussing two law students, one of whom has a literal checklist for potential partners, and you don’t think they laid down ground rules for what and was not okay in their relationship?
Yeah, now you know why I avoided talking about this storyline as it unfolded. It wasn’t getting quite to the point that another comic I read has gotten, but I kind of wanted to stay out of a fight.
Honestly, probably not? We saw a bit of conversation on that – Raidah’s “I’ll just leave you if cheat” bit and it didn’t feel like something they’d talked about or laid out in detail. He asked if hanging out with Joyce was okay – and she said yes, then proceeded to try to sabotage it when she perceived a threat.
Law students or not, they seem to be running on the usual unstated cultural assumptions on how romance works. Which generally work well enough, even if differences in detail can cause clashes.
Which doesn’t mean his behavior was okay since there wasn’t a specific rule forbidding it, of course.
brace yourself. jake… isn’t real.
yeah, i said legalistic. if you’re saying it’s not ok to kiss the new girl before you walk over and tell the old girl, but it *is* ok to make the promises to the new girl before you _check off the checkbox_, you’re making a distinction which is only a distinction in text.
also, if your sense of morality centers on how other people should conduct their lives, you might want to get that checked out.
A somewhat interesting development, but have to say it doesn’t feel that real.
The way Jacob is behaving here makes me feel he either has no actual sex drive (which would make him an ace), or at least no genuine interest in either his current girlfriend or Joyce.
It feels weird. The comic feel like how people claim, and maybe even think they’re wired, rather than how real people behave.
Not sure I get this. People set their sex drives aside for other things all the time, and if a specific individual doesn’t they should learn that a) they can and b) they should.
Yeah, I don’t see that at all. It’s also pretty reductionist, setting sex drive as the only interest.
He’s not uninterested, he’s upset with Joyce. But also with himself and what he’s learned about his motivations for dating Raidah.
Well, we’re talking about people in their late teens. I didn’t mean sex drive is the only determining factor. I just meant this doesn’t feel like Jacob is ultimately that keen on Joyce. He’s still operating on a very abstract, intellectual level here. Maybe demisexual rather than ace then.
Or, he’s just, y’know, maybe one of the more mature (though still fallible) young adults of the group?
Telling someone you plan to break up with your girlfriend and cheating on her is indeed a distinction.
Wait… Jacob isn’t real!?
Personally, my mind is fucking blown.
I just wanna say this is the best gravatar you have ever put together and is probably the best one I’ve seen here, period.
Well, thanks! I experimented with an anime glow effect, this time.
I love this comment, thank you for putting it here
I mean, I once told my brother when we were at Pizza Hut that the crushed red pepper flakes tasted like strawberries thinking he’d try a little and get and nasty surprise, and instead he upends the thing into his mouth and shrieks and my mortified mother drags us out of the restaurant and we didn’t get pizza that night which when you’re eight is like having Christmas canceled.
No, I don’t have a point, why do you ask?
Nobody would ever tell me what the fuck the red flakes were, until I was like 13. I was just repeatedly told not to eat them.
They taste like strawberries, try some.
Thank you for that- I laughed so hard I’m crying
You’re just like some kind of eccentric supervillain, aren’t you?
Villain, hero – he’s the one with the TARDIS.
History is written by the winners – sometimes literally.
Oh man! I tried so hard not to laugh out loud at this at work!
fixed it for ya, Jakes, get to work
[ ] an actual human being instead a list of unchanging traits
[✘] Joyce[✘] Raidah[ ] hey, Danny’s available
SUPER available.
…although it might make things awkward with Jacob’s roommate…
Danny: Well, I can’t date Ethan, that would make things super awkward for Amber.
Jacob: Hey, want to get dinner some time?
Danny: Awkwardness averted!
(Actually, that’s the Dannyest way this could play out.)
I have faith in Ethan.
It’s way easier for love triangles if everyone just does each other. They’re all friends, right?
It hasn’t worked out for me so far.
Danny doesn’t do non-awkward relationships
Don’t forget Danny’s roommate.
Joe would be very encouraging. And he knows Jacob. He’d be all for it except that Danny and Jacob are into icky commitment.
Danny would be happy about this. Best endgame result so far!
Yeah, but then when they break up he’d have to date Walky.
That’d only work if there was pizza.
They (Jacob and Joyce) just had lunch at a pizza joint…
….But I think Jacob probably would feel a bit off-put by Walky’s habit of scarfing down 50 nuggets. And without nuggets, life is not worth living for Walky.
I was talking about how Walky was willing to, and I quote, “go down on a dude” for free Galasso’s pizza during the Dina-centric chapter. But you do raise a good point about nuggets.
Oh my god that would be so adorable, two absolute dorks, one an overachiever with glasses and one a regular guy with a ukelele. I need this dynamic.
A checklist can be a good thing, here’s mine:
1. Cute
2. Nice to me
3. Doesn’t want kids
4. Respects my boundaries
Mine
1. No red flags
2. No addictions
3. Siblings don’t have concerns.
4. Parents don’t have legitimate concerns.
5. Don’t expect me to adult for two
6. I like them
1. Is at least mildly physically attractive
2. Has similar interests
3. Respects boundaries
4. Isn’t abusive
5. Gets along with my friends and family
Lists are fun
1) Likes birds
2) Has a favourite bird they can name within 5 seconds (Silkie chicken!!)
3) Identifies as male
4) Respects my materialism at important gift-dates of the year. (Happy winter gift-date!)
Silkie chickens sound adorable, I like chickadees~
Saying this as someone who had #3 on there for basically ever, that can totes change and blindside both(/all?) of you
…it changed back, for us, but not without some hurt feelings
1) Human
2) Respects my boundaries
3) Respects me
4) Everything else is negotiable
I don’t know why “I fixed […] for your” annoys me so much, but it might be that it just always sounds so condescending.
Bc it is tho
Well that fell apart faster than I thought.
Well, good on Jacob.
I feel like it’d be better on him without the kiss.
Agreed
Oh yeah, mucho agreement here on THAT point.
And the “you would have been the perfect one for me IF NOT FIR THIS ONE THING”, like geez, what a mindfuck
Modern day retelling of Eros and Psyche going great.
I dunno, it’s kind of a good lesson “Just be yourself and be honest and you’re perfect, skip the lying and the manipulation”.
Well sure the lying thing was wrong, but how was she supposed to know he would date her if she just asked him to, while he was with someone else?
She asks him. Option 1: He says yes! They date! Option 2: He says no. They don’t date.
She doesn’t ask him. Only 1 option: They don’t date.
She lies & manipulates. Result: He doesn’t want to date her anymore.
Whatever the other person’s feelings, being honest about your own and asking about theirs is very often the best choice. You have the no, you might get the yes. (Yes I have been there and I have been turned down more than once. Still glad that I laid it on the table.)
Exactly.
I mean, often if there are no formal barriers (like another relationship), it’s good to spend some flirty time building an emotional connection first before laying it on the table.
It is a lesson Jacob himself still needs to learn though…
He knows it, it’s just hard to live up to sometimes.
I feel like it’d be more boring.
That too, i mean it makes for a great story.
Yeah, but you gotta give him points for how quick he realized his mistake.
Based on what we see in this strip? Nah.
Pretty sure he “realized” a while ago. This is just him catching Joyce up to where he already is.
Which mistake? Being with Raidah, playing along with Joyce’s lie or his devotion to that stupid checklist?
Hell, I’d add his rejection of Joyce to that list. (Well, less “mistake” and more “some serious self-ighteousness”)
Yuuuuuuup. Good conclusion to come to, super bad execution.
Yes…..
i guess she deserved mean, but being mean is not very Jacob.
Better perhaps, but this recontextualizes the kiss as a bit of “what might have been”. This was the only time the kiss could have worked, so it wasn’t a matter of just postponing it 5 minutes, like we were thinking yesterday.
Still bad form, but for me it’s even more forgivable. And much better narratively.
Yeah…IMO, this is the worst of the three ways it could happen.
Last bit without the kiss – Jacob is refusing to let Joyce profit from the lies, but not twisting the knife.
Kiss without the last bit – potentially could follow an arc similar to Billie/Ruth (bad start, dysfunction for ages, realizing they messed up and trying to fix it).
This…remove the ‘not’ above.
Honestly, this felt to me like he realized mid-kiss. Like, maybe he leaned in thinking they’d date and this would be nice, but then the kiss felt wrong and it fell into place.
I don’t think anything about what Jacob just did can be called “good”.
It can be called cruel. It can be called “gas lighting”. But good? Nope.
I don’t really see how this could be called gaslighting… Would you mind expounding on that a bit?
DAMN Jacob that is ICE FREAKING COLD
I mean, I get it, and I can’t fault his logic. I don’t know if I would have done the same thing, but he’s got a good point. But still. Ice cold.
I do hope he comes back later after some time apart from Raidah and considers giving it a second try. And, you know, giving Joyce an apology. Kissing her? Arguably fine. Calling out her crush and then shutting her down on the grounds of lying to his brother and putting him in an awkward position? Also, arguably, fine. But both, one after the other? …Kind of a dick move. :/ If he can realize that and apologize, and Joyce can apologize for putting him in that position with his brother, they could possibly work out in the future. But otherwise… probably best to let this one lie.
Teach him a lesson, Joyce. Introduce him to Lucy.
Possibly relevant to the situation, tho http://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/removed-2/
Welp, now I’m REALLY looking forward to Jacob explaining to his brother why he’s suddenly split up with Joyce. But hey, Harrison will be proud of him no matter what, right?
Ice cold, except that the kiss was as much for him as to make a point to Joyce.
That’s BS.
You don’t kiss other people to make a point to yourself. That HURTS other people.
Also: RIP any respect or empathy I had for Jacob.
Oof.
Can I get an F in the chat for Joyce’s shattered heart?
RIP in pieces Joyce’s heart
This year – 18 — this year
o7
Press F to Pay Respects to Joyce’s shattered heart.
F.
F
F
F
F
Oof indeed. After reading this comic I couldn’t get Bob Jovi’s You Give Love A Bad Name out of my head.
Shot through the heart
And you’re to blame
Darlin’, you give love a bad name
An angel’s smile is what you sell
You promise me heaven, then put me through hell
Chains of love got a hold on me
When passion’s a prison, you can’t break free
I’m sorry but Bob Jovi
*picturing hair metal versions of Dylan songs*
Why didn’t this happen in the Eighties?
Gah. Yeah, I missed that. Was typing too fast.
*plays Chris Isaac’s “Can’t Do A Thing To Stop Me” on the hacked Muzak*
Did spellcheck “correct” Isaak?
Not the foresight I had in college.
She’s doing the best she can from a kind of messed up starting point, and pretty much everyone is going to have some less good stuff to accept. Maybe Jacob will accept it more over time, maybe not.
Yay, they didn’t work out.
Boo, Jacob kissed Joyce despite still being with Raidah just to make a point. Kinda gross. Plus the checklist comment, ew.
I agree. Kissing her and then explaining why they should be together was unecessary from him. It also proves that Harrison was right about Jacob’s obsession with checklists.
I think it was necessary. He needed to get across to Joyce that it was the behavior, not any lack of attraction and that did so viscerally.
Just walking away and breaking up with Raidah wouldn’t work.
Yes it would have.
I have expressed myself elsewhere and won’t do it here, apart to say that what Jacob just did was disgusting and I hope he never darken’s Joyce’s life again.
Nah, I disagree. Joyce has bee manipulative as all hell in this entire story arc. You reap what you saw.
Classic case of “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
He’s got some qualities that would land on other people’s Minus Some Stuff columns himself. He’s processing this all as fast as he can, I think he’ll realize that part during some introspection later.
Say what you will about Jacob.
That was a spectacularly ill-timed kiss for two completely separate reasons.
Good lawyers multitask.
Spectacularly ill-timed and yet the timing could be no other.
He couldn’t come back and kiss her after breaking up with Raidah – he probably wouldn’t stop.
True, but isn’t that the optimal amount of kissing? It’s a net positive, if you look at it mathematically.
He lacked restraint which is unusually for a lawyers who usually want restraint orders …
Except that he knew he didn’t want to get involved, even if he did want to.
Well shit, there goes Joyce’s chances to make a mulatto flavored baby with Jacob. This is such a let down it almost feel like I’m the one getting my heartbroken.
Are we still saying the M-word?
As a mixed black person myself I don’t even know if it’s okay. I’ve been called it before and it feels…weird. Better than brownin though I guess
Careful … although it is a perfectly accurate term, that is still a hot-button word with some people these days.
Oop, sorry didn’t know that word was taboo.
Wouldn’t actually say it’s taboo …. just make sure you know the people amongst whom you use it.
Yeesh. These few comments read super weird. I’m imagining them with any other word about race or ethnicity, and the, “just make sure you know the people amongst whom you use it.” comes off as very, “Don’t be racist unless you know it’s okay in X setting.” Even though I don’t think that was your intent. Still reads odd.
It’s just as easy to say mixed-, or multi-. I’m mixed and have been using “mutt” since middle school, light-heartedly. I wouldn’t describe someone else that way, though, because it would probably be insulting. And that’s fine.
Yeah, the “perfectly accurate term” and what you mentioned left me feeling the same way.
To try to explain myself —
1) I don’t think the word is racist in and of itself.
2) I do know that some people do.
3) Hence my statement — know your audience. If I am with someone I know does consider the word offensive, I don’t use it.
(and by the way — who is the final arbiter? Who gets to make the decision that “this word good; that word bad” that all of us must accept and follow?)
I do actually. It’s my job. It is bad. Don’t use it.
Really, no one does. You just look around one day and realize that the people a term refers to complain about it (or at least about outsiders using it) and that the people arguing that they really should be able to use are mostly assholes.
Honestly most of the reason I’m not sure about mulatto is that I’ve seen/heard it used so rarely in recent decades I don’t have any frame of reference for reactions.
Yeah, no, pretty sure that term’s not kosher at least in the US and Canada anymore.
Here in Mexico that term is archaic. Also, Joyce’s mom would get a heart attack if she hears this almost happened.
You think so?
*Goes back to the last comic she was in*
*Yelling at screen* HEY CAROL…
ouch
Good on Jacob.
Your avatar says otherwise.
Gosh flippin’ h*ck, that was fast.
Yeah, Jacob, good call. I might still ship you two, but the smart thing to do is respect the red flags.
…. whenthehelldidthecastgetsmart?
Jacob’s not a major character the way Joyce, Billie, or Danny are, he gets a reprieve from the worst Dumbing.
After getting burned a couple of times, even the dumbest person in the cast will learn not to put their hands in a fire.
It’s the first smart thing he’s done in several strips. And the saddest thing is if some of this smartness had been moved a few strips earlier to him and Joyce things may have gone so much better.
Well, damn, that didn’t take long.
Although if you’re gonna tell Joyce it’s not working out with either of them, maybe kissing her’s not the greatest way in the world, especially since you still have a girlfriend you gotta dump.
Also – Joyce minus some stuff, huh? So, uh…Lucy’s single in this universe.
Lucy is also extra thirsty. All it took was Billie suggesting Walky could bang her, and Lucy got all infatuated.
“They would be perfect for each other…”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/perfect-for-each-other/
You’re funny.
Thanks
Maybe Joyce is a terrible kisser and Jacob just discovered this deal-breaker.
Maybe she’s smelly up-close. Actually, call me mean but she always stroke me as the type to be unaware of how her breath smells.
He found out she has bad teeth, and “good dental hygiene” is a big item on his checklist.
Heya – best of luck for today’s election.
We’re gonna need it.
And now i am the angery
I hate paladins
Hey, they get few cool class features. Not as cool as druids get, but we can’t all be druids.
Bold words for someone within smiting distance.
waves bye and casts thunderstep
I Wish you weren’t able to escape this smiting.
I mean he seems to be doing this more because of the massive red flags her actions threw up than because of some idea that it’s wrong.
I mean he says himself if she’d just been honest with him things could have worked.
¿Porqué no los dos?
Aren’t the “massive red flags” the reason it’s wrong? If she’d just been honest and told him, what would have been wrong?
WhatsAPaladin . MemesFromDeadContentCreators . mp4
I hate badly played Paladins.
Well played paladins are awesome.
old versions didn’t really give you much room especially with very strict DMs, 5e paladins are much better done and give way more options to be interesting RP
Depends on the DM. I’m more likely to let smaller infractions slide, just because needing an atonement every other session got old quick.
Not exaggerating. An ex-DM in our group was a real asshole about that, which is why he’s now an ex.
I feel he is being unfair in the second panel. Telling someone how you feel about them while they’re in an apparently-happy relationship with someone else is bad form. Her only socially-acceptable choice was to wait until he and Raidah broke up for their own reasons.
Considering how much hate Joyce got in chat for wanting to break Raidah and Jacob up so she could be with him, and to then have Jacob turn round and say, “Hey, if you’d tried to break us up it prolly would have worked” the poor girl just can’t win.
Pretty much, it’s a super messed up lose lose situation.
As Nymphie says below, there’s a big difference between “trying to break us up” and just telling him how you feel. Joyce wasn’t being honest then either.
There’s a difference between being direct and being dishonest.
Eh, telling someone how you feel when they’re in a relationship isnt as bad as sneakily trying to put a wedge between the couple to break them up so you then can make a move once they’re split.
The latter is trying to manipulate the situation for your own benefit without consideration to anyone else.
The first is to put all cards on the table, and then people can do what they want with the information. “I’m sorry, tell me what i can do to make it easier for you to move on” could have been one alternative of what she would have gotten from a confession like that, and if he would have wanted to be with her instead… Had it been kinder to never give him the choice?
RE: ALT-Text: I mean, why work out when you can have mac-n-cheese instead?
And two scoops of ice cream.
That’s a shame. I say, despite being more interested in the idea of Joe/Joyce, anyhow, but still.
Sarah still gets her birthday present in the form of Raidah’s displeasure, so, you know, silver linings.
Not sure if that will actually make her happy. She’s still miserable and lonely regardless of how miserable and lonely some bongo she hates is.
Is she though? She can name at least three people off the top of her head she likes and willingly spends time with, she’s ina pretty good place right now.
Wait, Joyce, Dina, and…?
Herself?
Dorothy. She likes Dorothy, if not her taste in boyfriends.
Jacob, whom she sees in the class they have together.
No way her relationship with Jacob isn’t heavily changed after this.
Sarah is ironically enough the overarching “villain” of this story (she pointed Joyce at Jacob), and holy shit do I hope Raidah and Jacob never find that out.
Well that’s annoying
Repeat after me. “Damn” “you,” “Willis.”
Now shake your fist at the screen.
Damn it, I usually think people are ridiculous for saying that because I love drama, but this one personally hurt me
That’s the thing – while this is technically drama, as in it is dramatic, this is also about the least interesting way this could have gone.
I mourn the interesting story potential that has been left behind.
… unless of course Willis comes around again for another pass. After all, just because Jacob says that doesn’t mean it will stick.
I think it’s pretty interesting, because rather than focusing on the external drama — Raidah trying to get revenge or Jacob dating Joyce, but winding up flirting with other girls, for example, it turns internal with everything falling on Joyce dealing with her own behavior losing what she’d hoped to gain.
Huh, there goes that retirement nest egg I was talking about.
who says it can’t be a dream sequence
in which they have the same dream
So why kiss her if theres nothing going to happen?! Jesus! Are we all stupid at that age? I know I was stupid, but is this a general thing? Just acknowledging your feelings but also acknowledging that you both shouldn’t be together would have worked out in the story!
Jacob out here reminding me of my first love who absolutely wrecked me
And I on the other hand was like Jacob when I was younger. Dammit, I m certain he is going to get a lot of disappointment and self hatred after this.
…you???
I mean, I broke with a girlfriend for petty reasons and I was a shallow teenager.
These reasons aren’t petty.
No comments on personal life.
He seems to have poor impulse control, at the moment.
Willis is hammering the “Dumbing” of age pretty good. All this pessimism makes me question why I continue to read, but then I remember he is good telling jokes and drawing porn.
Reminder: it is Dumbing Of Age, -not- Everyone Makes Smart, Thoughtful Decisions Age
The pessimism of the title is self explanatory.
Not being one to take the actions of cartoon characters as blanket statements about human nature, but rather commentary on a few particular flavors of it, I read that less as pessimism and more as truth in advertising.
“Are we all stupid at that age?” Yeah.
And for most ages after.
The specific type of stupid is just different for every person at every age.
To some extent? Yeah. The prefrontal cortex (the part that helps with long term planning, executive function, and “HEY. HEY. THIS IMPULSE IS A BAD IDEA. DO NOT DO THE THING”) does not fully develop until (*on average*) 25.
Because he really wanted to kiss her and there wouldn’t be another chance?
Because he wanted her to know he was attracted to her and it wasn’t that blocking her chance?
Prediction: This will not last. Joyce/Jacob is probably not the true endgame, but I think it will be the result of the current storyline.
The true endgame will probably be Walky x Joyce and I will be there like “I knew it” while sipping wine and waiting to get my own money to see the slipshines made by Willis.
As the person who predicted it would be a one-strip relationship, I am willing to throw down imaginary internet money on a wager with you for funsies.
add “doesn’t get drunk on babies” to the list.
That reminds me of a conversation I had with some coworkers the other day, regarding whether or not anybody has made alcohol using human bodies.
Good Christ. Dare I ask what the consensus was?
We basically decided that it would really suck if you went to all the trouble of getting a volunteer, only to wind up making a bad batch out of them.
This kind of subversive humor is that shit I like.
If it was a product, I’d assume Joyce would be their number one customer!
I did not expect this.
This is a hard call for Jacob, but stepping aside and re-evaluating after he’s cleanly broken it off with Raidah makes a lot more sense.
While I’m another one of those Joe/Joyce interested parties, I would’ve liked to see things with Jacob stick for a while. Human interaction is messy, even if you have strong morals and ground rules about infidelity.
Of course, the Joe/Joyce dynamic could be more rewarding, if played in the “Jewish Romance” narrative style (where internal conflict/denial of one’s feelings is eventually resolved, a la “Empire Strikes Back”). However, that would require more of Joe around.
had a feeling this might happen, but not enough of a feeling to be contrarian in the comments two strips ago.
happy birthday, sarah.
Huh, my prediction was that they’d hook up, and then there would be an arc that makes Raidah more sympathetic so we care that they’re being so shitty to her.
WHATMAKESYOUHAHA.MP3
I’ll say it, despite the church affinity and some physical chemistry, Jacob and Joyce and poorly suited as romantic partners. Not least because Joyce obviously has a repressed sexuality raging to get out and Jacob, by his own admission, wants to be with someone who doesn’t sexualize him. It would have ended in tears if they’d got together and I’m relieved we didn’t have wait it out till that point.
That’s a very good point. I kinda wanted to see them together so Joyce could get to a point where *she* begs for intimacy and is turned down by Jacob. That would be something to watch.
Oh well, Joyce is going to have to find a different outlet for her wayward horniness. Maybe this starts the Joe/Joyce vibes again?
Sarah recommends a men’s fitness magazine and a sterilized hairbrush.
I say Sarah gifts her a rabbit vibrator for Christmas
I think Jacob’s anti-sexualization thing is overemphasized. I don’t think he’s against partners being physically attracted to him and sexually interested, just against that being the only thing between them.
Jacob&Joyce Shippers: If you were going to do this then why kiss her!? Why you got to play with my heart like this-I mean Joyce’s heart!
That is the feeling I got for years reading Homestuck. Welcome to the club.
Listen, we don’t need to be opening up old wounds. 8^y
By kissing her he can say to Raidah that he’s breaking up with her because he kissed another girl, I guess. Rather than because he pretended another girl was his girlfriend.
Or that he has found out that Raidah is not the kind of girlfriend who would impress his brother after all.
“Watch this. You can actually pinpoint the second when her heart rips in half.”
Oof. Expecting it doesn’t make it any easier.
Since I have spent this entire arc smugly proclaiming that I know whats going to happen…
…wow. Totally blindsided. I did NOT see this coming.
That said, I give Jacob about a week (in universre time) before he crawls back to Joyce.
I can see them having a moment of reconciliation. They do work well together, but Joyce needed a slap like that for being so underhanded.
I feel like that’s a little unfair. She panicked when confronted with brother and baby and the assumption of all the things she wanted, but she did try to do the right thing later at the restaurant and it was Jacob who was the impetus there to keep the charade going.
Not very unfair, since the entire “break up Jacob and Raidah” was a pre-meditated thing.
I don’t for one second buy that Joyce had any pre-meditated master plan when she walked over to see a baby on a whim. I don’t even buy that she had time to think “Oh, this is Jacob’s brother, and he thinks I’m his girlfriend, I will definitely be able to masterfully manipulate this situation to achieve my goals.”
I think the sum total of her thought process was “Me girlfriend? Durr hurr me like me say yes”. Which her rational brain immediately tried to walk back and escape from less than a minute later. This isn’t mastermind behavior.
No, but she has planned on breaking Jacob and Raidah up for a while now in strip and a long time outside of it. Initially for Sarah, then for her.
tl;dr just because this isn’t how she planned to break up Jacob and Raidah doesn’t mean she didn’t want them to break up for a while.
Yep, so I’m quite happy with this conclusion. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Yeah. No dancing around the room tonight.
I hadn’t thought they might get back together. I suspect if they do, now, it’ll be more toxic than it would’ve been before Jacob pulled this “You’re not good enough for me” line on her.
Jacob can’t really take back what he said. So if Jacob does crawl back it’ll be basically Jacob saying “I’m not good enough to have the girlfriend i deserve, who’s upright enough not to lie and/or make me want to lie. So, since I’m garbage, you’ll do.”
So… this is dumbing of age… maybe they’ll meet up on Garbage Roof (at least metaphorically) and start dating. But I’m not sure I want to see that happen at this point.
Waaaahuhguh!
Alternatively, for us optimists –
-Joyce reacts to the wake-up call and grows. She makes a real effort to understand and respect boundaries.
-Jacob takes time to reflect on what HE did, as well, and how lying and going with the flow to please his brother cost him so much. He resolves to be more of his own person in the future.
-Raidah hurts, and the emotional pain and loneliness gives her some insight into other people’s pain. She stops her harrassment of Sarah and becomes generally more empathetic.
-Sarah is torn between relief and guilt. She understands that revenge is not the healthiet way forward.
-Joe is relieved by the Joycob ship sinking and realizes he’s into the fundie girl for real. He suddenly understands that there are several ways not to ‘be his father’; casual sex, open relationships, monogamy, … It’s not the sex, it’s the honesty that’s important to him.
-Dina goes to eat cereal with Riley.
THE END
Dina will totally eat more cereal with Riley.
Ouch… He really let it drop at her. Though it was probably a best choice stop whatever was happening with both Raidah and Joyce.
Yeah. Jocye gets that a lot.
Next up we will see Jacob and Becky being plastered and cry about the one that got away.
Oof well that crashed and burned faster than anticipated. Also, yikes on bikes Jacob, you don’t want any person you date in the future to hear that your checklist is Joyce minus some things b.c it just means you want to date your perception of Joyce but are now too morally conflicted b.c you know she’s a whole person, no?
Someone more like Joyce than Raidah, but not starting off the relationship by lying and making me lie?
That’s not really “know she’s a whole person”, that’s “screwed you over on the first date”.
fair
aaaaaaaaand world record for shortest relationship goes to Joycecob
In this comic.
I once had a girl break up with me before I even told her I was interested. I’d only spoken directly to her a day before. This was like… almost 15 years ago?
Apparently, asking someone to hold off sending any further NSFW selfies until after waking hours can be interpreted as calling them “easy”? *shrugs*
Anyway, pretty sure I hold that record.
Makes me wonder if Joyce is going to attribute it not working as retribution for her not going to church. Idk if she thinks that way. Either way, I feel for both Jacob and Joyce
I’d just like to point out that the chronology implied by the sequence of strips means that this kiss lasted for the entire duration of Carla’s elevator conversation with Harrison
Damn, that implies it was a really good kiss. Which makes the immediate rejection that much worse, honestly.
While hearing that might be pretty distressing for Joyce, I think it’s fair. He did realize that he was genuinely attracted to Joyce rather than to Raidah which he dated because of social expectations. But, he also realized that they were a bad influence on each other. So I think what he means is: thanks for helping me discover my type but I need someone who is both my type and doesn’t go full on psycho mode on me because of repressed sexuality.
Hell yeah shortest ship concise and to the point
It’s really for the best. I mean, let’s be honest, if she brought him home she’d quickly realize that her folks are also racist.
Wait, didn’t we WANT that?
Did we? Because when we get what we want, it’s almost always some twisted, nightmarish version of the event.
All we did was stave off Carol remarrying Ross after the divorce so they can go save their children round 2. No biggie.
Hey look Joyce faced consequences after all. Happy now?
Yes, very
With that specific aspect of this scenario, yes.
Yup.
Why am I thinking that he is off to join the French Foreign Legion?
I’ll bite. Why are you thinking Jacob’s off to join the French Foreign Legion?
Not sure, hence the question, but it is a traditional response to disgrace, lost love, etc.
COLD
I must need Comcast to service my internet connection again, because all I’m seeing coming from Jacob is highly mixed signals.
Heh
Am I the only one who think s this is a rotten move on Jacobs part? First you kiss someone and then you tell them why it isn’t going to work out? (And doing it while you are still in a relationship no less). And to mentian a checklist to tell her she is almost good enough? This is not some deserved comeupponce. It is just mean.
This seems a lot worse then the initial lie Joyce told.
Kissing her totally not ok, but I think the checklist comment is basically just re-stating what he said first. That things could have worked out if she’d not pulled some serious red flags out about how deceptive she can be when she wants something. Which is a pretty fair thing to not want in a romantic partner?
Nah, “I want exactly you but one mistake less” is ugly, and hurtful, and completely not how people work.
I mean Joyce didin’t make a mistake, she made a bad choice. And don’t get me wrong, Jacob also made bad choices, but “I want someone who fits me romantically AND also is honest” is not some unreasonable bar. I would also be totally understanding if Joyce were to say “Well I like Jacob but the fact that he cheated on his girlfriend raises too many red flags for me to date him”. There’s not really something wrong with not wanting to be someones partner because they have behaviors you don’t want in a partner.
It was a totally reasonable bar. Until he kissed her, then told her that he wanted exactly her, minus one day.
You’re allowed to want basically exactly that person. Kissing them and then telling them that in the manner he did? Shitty.
I mean it is still a reasonable bar, but yeah you are totally right that kissing her is a completely dickish thing to do right before cutting off the possibility of a relationship. It was a shitty move. And he didn’t need to double down after he already told her why he didn’t want to date her.
I love how this debate ends in an understanding. Really, this place is the only comment section I’ve seen that has those.
Though seriously “I’m not going to date him because he cheated on his girlfriend with me” isn’t really cool behavior either.
Let’s not forget she tried to run away from the situation after she let the lie slide the first time. She’s impulsive, yes, but she did try and rectify the situation–twice–with the limited tools she has.
Very true, she tried to fix it and yet gets all the blame.
No no no, he gets some too, don’t worry
Running away isn’t “rectifying the situation”, it’s escaping it. In both cases it would still have left Jacob holding the bag, trying to explain to Harrison what just happened. Either covering for Joyce or throwing her under the bus.
Agreed G127, kissing her and then saying all that was a dick move.
Honestly, yeah.
It’s actually kind of impressive. Joyce literally lied and manipulated her way into this situation and yet somehow Jacob *still* managed to be end up being being the biggest dick inolved. Good going, Jacob.
It really is a terrible thing for him to do. From my perspective, Jacob is going through a huge personal crisis here. Jacob grew up in his brother’s shadow. Jacob from what we have seen is constantly doing what is expected of him. Once college hits, he is away from home and yet still doing what is expected. We’re missing a big part explaining how he came to get together with Radiah, but from the limited evidence it shows that she fit the profile of an expected girlfriend.
Enter Joyce, the girl that is obviously struggling to find her own way but always keeps a brave public appearance up. The girl that appears kind to always support her friends (Sarah) even when everyone else pushes them away. The girl that was extremely flirty with him opposed to Raidah’s more serious personality.
Joyce may have been the first crush that Jacob actually wanted. The evidence supporting this is how Harrison didn’t even know Raidah’s first name yet he knew Joyce’s life story. Joyce is the girl always on Jacob’s mind.
Unfortunately, his expectations come first. The “I need to break up with Raidah” was a breakthrough. Short lived though as he dove back into his checklists. A tragedy all around.
G127, you most certainly are not alone in that regard.
This is a really shitty move on Jacob’s part. I like him a lot less now.
“And I cheated on my girlfriend too, gosh I’m batting a thousand”
If only this wasn’t the week Jacob was studying “fruit of the poisonous tree” in class.
That smarts.
And to the people asking why Jacob would kiss her right before hitting the brakes, I’m right there with you. I had an ex who, in the middle of us making out heavily, broke the kiss to break up with me. Like, idk if it was some kind of test or power play, or completely earnest, but it gave me whiplash.
inb4: it wasn’t the same situation as with Joyce, there was no deception or cheating, just they came out of nowhere with it and never gave me much justification for breaking it off or why they waited until we were making out.
Happened to me too, it’s pretty cruel. My last ex, when he broke up with me for the first time, came over with the intention of dumping me but decided to get a last round of sex in first.
…In hindsight, that was probably a pretty big red flag indicating I should not have taken him back.
Okay, two things. Firstly, is Harrison actually married? Of course theres a baby and in-laws, but we have no evidence of a wife, do we? Secondly, now that Jacob has taken himself out of the picture, can I now ship Harrison and Joyce? He already seems quite taken with her and he’s everything Jacob wants to be already, so I can see Joyce being exstatically happy with such a relationship.
He talked about his wife while they were at the restaurant, and even if he didn’t, that would be a pretty skeevy age and maturity difference.
Well obviously there WAS a wife, I mean…baby? But he’s Jacob’s brother, how big of an age gap can there be? Gotta give it to you on the maturity call though. Okay, fine. Ship was broken up on the stocks but I’m allowed to dream.
From my father’s first marriage, there’s an age gap between my oldest sister and I of seventeen years. From my father’s current marriage (of which I am the oldest child), there’s an age gap of eighteen years between myself and my youngest brother.
…I have a very large family.
The age gap is clearly enough for Harrison to be a fully-trained and qualified lawyer who was in practice in significant roles before Carla grew about a foot taller, whereas Jacob is in the first half of the first semester of his first year. It’s at least about twelve years.
Was Harrison a big figure in the overturn of whatever it was, or was he just one of the minor legal flunkies? I think the phrasing before was that he was “on the team.”
Would he be identified as a major figure in the case by people not connected to him?
Carla recognized him on sight and thanked him for the lawyer stuff. I’m guessing he wasn’t a flunky.
Okay, so we’ve concluded no one actually knows whether Harrisons wife is still alive and theres actually no evidence on which to base his age? Excellent!
Harrison is 24 years old, his wife died 7 years ago, and they were married last August. Figure that timeline out, if you’re feeling brave.
Age is just a number, right? Naive girls of eighteen ought to partner with experienced, worldly men in their thirties?
How does that song from The Sound of Music go? “I need someone older and wiser showing me what to do”? I think that was one of the lines that bugged me most about that song, and they were talking about a year’s age gap!
I’m so glad Maria’s advice was basically a nice way of saying ‘Honey, RUN’. (Okay, fine, it was more like ‘just wait a year or two’ but considering the circumstances, it may as well have been ‘Honey, RUN’). Especially when you remember he goes Nazi.
I think it’d be a nice interpretation to make that song super tongue-in-cheek. He might actually think he’s older and wiser, but she’s teasing him: ‘you silly, we’re basically the same age.’
I didn’t except this..
I don’t think Joyce would be a good girlfriend for basically anyone right now, so he probably did the right thing. But the reasoning is interesting. Yes, it’s a bad start, but not unrecoverable. Seems that Jacobs girlfriend is measured against some high moral standards.
Also, kissing her while there is a girlfriend waiting for you next room and then telling her this? That’s not exactly good behaviour, too.
Ugh.
I agree that he and Joyce *shouldn’t* be dating. I even agree that he had a right to call her out on lying to his brother.
(Though frankly, he could have played the whole thing off as a joke pretty early on, rather than dragging it out to the point where he had to tell what he considers to be a big lie.)
But a big part (at least half!) of why he shouldn’t be dating Joyce is because, right now, he clearly needs to stop, and reevaluate his priorities, and because NOBODY should jump right into a new relationship immediately upon ending a previous one. (Whether or not they’re right for each other otherwise, is a judgement I’ll leave up to the shippers.)
And finally… kissing her was a d*ck move, no matter which way you look at it.
He shouldn’t have kissed her while he was still in a relationship with someone else. He shouldn’t have kissed her when he suspected she had feelings that he was about to crush. And he shouldn’t have kissed her just to prove a flipping point.
Also – I find kind of odd that nobody else seems to be noticing that, until he kissed her, she was trying to convince him that his relationship with Raidah is still intact, and that he doesn’t need to break up with her.
Agreed 100%, what Jacob did was shitty and Joyce was trying to do the right thing. Also, Jacob doesn’t get to blame Joyce for HIS choice to lie to Harrison because him liking her and deciding to lie is not her fault.
Because she genuinely cares for the dude and didn’t mean to cause a massive stuff-up in his life.
Whether or not she re-evaluates how much she wishes him well in light of him kissing her then telling her it’s not going to happen because she’s a liar *which is really hypocritical right after he has deliberately taken action to betray his girlfriend’s trust in his commitment to their relationship AND her faith in him as a non-usey nice guy who she can feel safe crushing on because he isn’t like not-Ryan* remains to be seen.
I can see the girl feeling really upset – not just in a heartbroken way, but in a “this guy I felt safe with and thought I could trust has deliberately hurt me, in a sexual manner” which… With her hang-ups from her upbringing and her trauma..? Yikes…
This may push her back to not being able to spend any time alone in a public place
Looking at it from that angle, this entire scene feels properly skeevy. Nobody comes out of it looking particularly good, but Jacob hasn’t done a single thing to make himself look any better.
Well, he is breaking up with Raidah, so that’s a step to looking better. Certainly would be worse if everything else went down the same, but he didn’t follow through on that.
Although I do believe he will, for all we know, he might be following his brother now and keeping Raidah in the dark…
Yikes. This helped me put my finger on what bugs me about this strip so much. Because all the time, including the brunch right now, Jacob acted around Joyce like The Nice Guy (TM) and then suddenly, on a drop of a dime, came this moment of outright cruelty. Yes, she messed up, but this is too much. Kissing her and then telling her she is not good enough for him and rubbing in her face that if she behaved differently, she could have what she wanted (which is bullshit, because without all this mess, he would still be hung up on his old checklist and wouldn’t even consider her). Nasty. Plus, she offered to explain the whole situation and he said no.
I suck at estimating people’s character and take everything at face value so someone acting always kind and then suddenly switching in a cruel mode is one of the worst social-situation nightmares and a deep betrayal for me.
I have some friends who are kind, but can put a foot in their mouth in a hurtful way- but I know about this and I’m emotionally prepared for that possibility. If someone is consistently super nice and then… is suddenly the opposite, that gives me the heebie-jeebies.
I mean, dude is probably in a state of a deep emotional confusion and not at his best right now, and it’s kinda understandable that he may want to lash out… But still, ouch.
No, sorry, that was a dick move. I don’t need a happy ever after, but don’t kiss her and then reject her. I know a bunch of people are thrilled that Joyce ‘learns a lesson’ here, but come on
I was in the ‘I hope Joyce learns a lesson’ crowd and I still agree it was a dick move. C’mon dude, don’t be like that.
Agreed, it was shitty and putting all the blame on her, when he could have been honest himself was shitty too.
I think the “in turn I lied to my brother” is acknowledging some of that.
Acknowledging it while still blaming Joyce because he likes her and that’s “why he lied”. Yeah, still shitty.
She tried to come clean, and he told her no, cuz he was enjoying himself. That’s him actively making the choice to lie to Harrison at that point. She tried to do what he’s doing now, and bow out of his life. The fact that he is doing it now isn’t him taking the moral high ground, it’s him saying ‘You wanted to leave on your terms, but I needed the last word.’ Any respect I had for Jacob is gone
I agree completely, he’s being a royal douche canoe.
Here’s hoping for “Jacob does a Dick Move” for the next slipshine
Anybody think his checklist stuff IS a result of his impulsiveness and he’s just not aware yet? Could be he finally ditches the checklist, then spirals out of control?
Like everybody else, I’m pissed about Jacob starting this conversation with the kiss. And also, isn’t this Joyce’s first real kiss? Like EVER? That makes it 1000000000000x worse. I liked Jacob until now. A kiss as an intro to a “not gonna work out” is bad for anybody, but for a girl from a world where kissing before you’re practically engaged is “edgy,” this is incredibly serious and nasty.
Yeeeah, I was coming to say basically this. Like I was pissed about my first real kiss being without any warning, and I wasn’t (quite) as First Kiss Is Sacred as Joyce’s background. And on top of that, at least said first kiss led to me being in a relationship (which tbh I didn’t really want but I’d convinced myself I did so that’s beside the point). This was just… a biiig jerk move.
(Plus, like, he’s still dating Raidah even if he does plan to dump her, and cheating is just the biggest way to lose esteem in my book tbh.)
I’m not sure the Ethan kiss doesn’t count but it is an absolute dick move for Jacob to kiss her before telling her he’s not interested.
Joyce was all beating herself up back in the day over her thing with Ethan, specifically, being her first kiss – so this thing with Jacob wasn’t that. First kiss where there was mutual attraction involved, maybe.
Is he aware of that? I don’t remember the details of the whole church storyline well enough to feel like I know either way.
Same, it isn’t okay at all how Jacob handled this.
I agree. I’m happy that Joyce’s lying wasn’t validated. But Jacob lied too. And the kiss was just mean, though it wasn’t meant that way. They both have fucked up here.
Jep (though I think her and Ethan also kissed. But this was the first kiss that promised real potential for a relationship) – kinda reminds me of my last break up (nothing parallel, just the being ‘nice’ to someone before breaking up).
This will hurt and I won’t be surprised if Joyce will devolve into a crying mess soon after this.
I reckon it’s the first real kiss in that it was the first kiss she had where both she (and her kissing partner) really enjoyed it and finally felt some of that magic that a proper kiss is supposed to feel like. The kind of kiss where, for once, the universe just feels right; and if everything could be frozen in time forever, that’d be just great, thank you.
Something tells me that, by the end of this strip, Joyce is wondering just how big a series of mistakes that she may have made here. I mean ‘polluted beginnings’ and all that but, also, I’m not sure if someone with her neuroses would be entirely happy with someone whose own neuroses might reinforce hers!
Meanwhile…
RAIDAH: “Did you steal my boyfriend?”
JOYCE: “Could you get back to me on that? I’m not sure right now!”
RAIDAH: “Yeah, sounds about right.”
Well that ship sank faster than I expected.
DAMN YOU WILLIS!!!!!
You called the strip “Dumbing” of age for a reason. Why did you have to make Jacob smart right now?
Seriously, I’m really sad about this. Poor Joyce. “You could have had what you want, but you did the thing wrong, so now (when it’s too late) we’ll tell you what rule you broke.”
I’m not saying she did the right thing. But… so close!… and then failure at the last instant, after she had every reason to think she’d reached her goal. I do know how that feels.
These aren’t obscure rules she should have needed to be warned about. In fact, she was warned about them.
This blowing up in her face was inevitable from from the very beginning of her attempts to break Jacob and Raidah up. Exactly how it would play out and how close she’d get wasn’t of course.
Joyce already knew the rules
Thou shalt not Lie, and Thou shalt not COVET THY NEIGHBORS STUFF DANG IT
That was a cruel thing to do after they BOTH fucked up. They BOTH lied. They could have told Harrison the truth.
But I’m not sad to see it not working out.
In fact Joyce volunteered to tell Harrison the truth and Jacob said no.
This. Right here.
My opinion of Jacob is vastly lowered by this.
“Hey, we should drop the act and come clean.”
“No.” *arm around shoulder*
“Well, we should at least tell your girlfriend.”
“No.” *smooch*
“Wait, so does this mean you’re basically dumping her to date me?”
“No.” *mopey absconding*
Yeah, he doesn’t come across real well.
Agreed on all points.
This.
They didn’t even need to tell Harrison the truth
Exactly, Jacob has more blam in this specific situation than Joyce because she tried to fix it and he kept putting it off and then blamed her for his choice.
Way to make a moral decision that makes you look like a complete asshole, Jacob.
My opinion on the Jacob kiss is that as long as he is going to break up with Raidah that very moment and it’s not a deceptive thing, it’s okay. The breakup is when he decides its over (or she does). But this? This was just emotionally manipulative to Joyce.
“The breakup is when he decides its over” ? Not quite though. I mean for me personnally, there isn’t a big difference between playing houses with Joyce and kissing her, but in both cases Raidah has not been updated. The breakup requires both parties to be aware of it, otherwise it’s cheating.
Granted, sometimes you just get emotions and do stupid things and it’s forgiveable, but it’s still cheating until Breakup Document have been served to the opposing party.
Breakup Documents are actually just a copy of Mirror Force, chucked at the other person’s head.
The Walky relationship method.
It’s got a 100% success rate so far.
Well then, in that case maybe you shouldn’t have kissed her, Jacob. Just saying.
Harrison: Hey bro where’s Joyce?
Jacob: Oh, she’s not my girlfriend, we were both lying about that. Which is why I kissed her, told her I have strong feelings for her, then strongly implied we will never be together because of some of her negative qualities and will now go break up with my real girlfriend who I have been stringing along and don’t like that much.
Harrison: what the F***?!?
Jacob: saying that out loud, I want to interject that each of these individual steps seemed mostly right at the time.
Story of my life. Everything I do makes perfect sense until I look back at it.
I think they could possibly do some introspection, process all the things that happened, then in a while go into Repair Mode and Forgiveness Mode and decide to start things off on the right foot and try a real kiss later in the future.
“… it’s gonna sound a lot like you. Minus some stuff.” = Lucy; just sayin’.
Minus. Not plus.
‘Minus’ works for Lucy because Joyce is her plus more bi, remember?
Joyce is about to realise she’s been looking in all the wrong places. She’ll get upstairs, think some things over, and by the time Dina’s party is getting properly started, Joyce and Dorothy are gonna be making out in the broom closet. I’m sure there’ve been no steps skipped, here.
… Well, I certainly wasn’t expecting this turn of events. I feel really bad for Joyce because I suspect she’ll take this rejection HARD, but at the same time, I can understand why Jacob might have misgivings getting into a relationship with Joyce under this kind of beginning. It would create a lot of bad blood between him and Raidah, and also create a lot of potential repercussions in his social circles.
What I REALLY hope, however, is that this doesn’t lead into “How Jacob became a sex addict, DoA-verse version.”
Kissing her kinda takes away any moral superiority you had dude.
Also, the list thing is super creepy.
Kissing her kinda takes away any moral superiority you had dude.
I think that was sort of the point.
Yep, the kiss and the list are both skeevy.
Well, that ship sank on its virgin voyage. Never mind that “Titanic” was likely on the list of Joyce’s forbidden movies.
Not if we go by Roomies!, it wasn’t – plus I recall a line from Walky to the effect of saying that a very similar storyline, i.e. Joyce betting
JoeWalky that he’d cry watching the movie, played out “off-screen” in DoA.(Imperial) We feel that the Joyce of Roomies was somewhat older, and allowed to make her own choices at that point. As well as having less restrictive parents.
-This- Joyce was not even allowed to watch “Frozen”. Much less, We assume, a movie in which a woman is cheating on her fiancé and having premarital hanky-panky (not to mention the on-screen nudity). Especially since Jesus doesn’t even show up in the end to condemn her to Hell for all eternity; the final scene being one where the earth opens up and she falls into a hole full of flames.
So….
*looks left*
*looks right*
…
Lucy x Jacob ship, anyone? Because that’s totally Joyce “minus some stuff”.
Pretty sure Lucy is still set on getting some chiseled caramel
Fantastic, so she’ll have a nice snack after her and Jacob get done annihilating each other’s privates like Godzilla’s been in town.
That sounds painful.
Sometimes, soreness is inevitable.
I’d be on board but if Jacob ever cheated on her (i mean even beyond all this, he has a history or making his girlfriends jealous) I’d have to invent a way to travel into the comic to kill him
I’m kinda shipping Jacob and Sarah. Yeah, I know, that’s a ship of fools.
I had the same thought. At first, I was so angry at Jacob for that line, cause like, people aren’t checklists. You can’t just magically expect to find someone who fits every bullet point, without accepting a few bullet points you didn’t want. Life doesn’t work like that. People don’t work like that.
And then I remembered Lucy exists.
Well, the checklist isn’t really out of the blue. We’ve known he’s got a checklist for awhile now, even before the scene with Harrison. Given that, it’s really just a way to say “I’ve changed what I’m looking for and it would be you – if it wasn’t for the whole lying thing.”
Lucy? This Lucy ?
Frankly Joyce deserves to lose her shot at Jacob for putting him in that position.
Jacob didn’t have to kiss her though. Damn, dude. Harsh.
Also, I don’t think a list of what you want in a partner is creepy at all – it’s important to know what kind of person you want to be with and what your deal-breaker things are. A checklist just formalizes it.
Like for me the kind of person I am with has to align with me on my core values and morals. And a deal-breaker is abuse.
Jacob found out that what he thought he wanted wasn’t what he actually wanted. That’s growing up.
He also figured out that manipulation and dishonesty are deal-breaker things. I can’t fault him for that.
Can and do fault him for leading Joyce on with the kiss but he’s probably a bit PO’d. Shitty thing to do but understandable.
Frankly Joyce deserves to lose her shot at Jacob for putting him in that position.
Well, let’s be real here. Joyce is horny. But she is nowhere near where she could turn this into a component of a working relationship. Pulling the brakes on what would have ended up a train wreck on first approach is not actually doing her a disfavor in the long run.
PO’d and really wanting to kiss her and psyching himself up to tell her it’s not going to happen and psyching himself up to tell Raidah and wanting her to know it’s not that he’s not attracted, but the lying specifically. Dude’s conflicted.
Yeah, that’s my read on it too.
Meaner than strictly necessary but also not unwarranted.
Maybe this’ll teach Joyce how to boundaries?
My feelings in a nutshell. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13154598930a43504400&page=612#comment-15279
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going back to watching Zombie Idols.
The site itself wasn’t blackholey enough for you, so you link the forums? Nice touch, I respect that.
Blackholey?
The idea being that TVTropes sucks you in like a black hole. You can spend all day jumping from link to link.
Hm! I had “Jacob fails to break up with Raidah,” but I considered going with “Carla blabs something about Joyce, Raidah, and/or Jacob that demolishes the lie.” “Jacob’s kiss was actually a kiss-off” was nowhere in my betting pool.
I realize Jacob is having a crisis of conscience which, for him, is as much a source of angst as Joyce’s crisis of faith, so it’s not really fair to critique his timing when he’s this out of control… but goddamn, man, there is a way to nonverbally signal “I like you, but this can never happen,” and that is not it.
I had “Jacob fails to break up with Raidah,”Hm? I don’t get that at all. Raidah does not fit his changed list.
Yeah. That is about the direction I hoped this went. He realized he needed to be his own man and not model himself after his brother. And Joyce gets a consequence for her actions. Let’s move on from this cringe of a storyline now? HEY?! WHAT has Leslie been up to?!!
YA COULD’VE SKIPPED THE KISS, JACOB!
Also, don’t shift part of the blame of your lying on Joyce. She’s done enough wrong through this whole shitshow that she doesn’t need to shoulder part of YOUR wrongdoings.
Exactly!
He’s just following an ancient Christian tradition. If the woman did it first blame her.
Wow, talk about “Everybody Sucks Here”. I can’t find any sympathy for either Jacob or Raidah at this point. One is a giant hypocrite (YOU WENT ALONG WITH THIS CHARADE, YOU CHODEBAG) who defines himself almost entirely by his brother’s approval, and the other is a careerist alpha-b*tch who doesn’t really see him as anything other than a stepping stone for her professional advancement. They’ll do well in the legal profession, I’m sure.
I feel sorry for Joyce to some degree, and as much as giving her hope and then dashing it with that kiss is unnecessarily cruel, I think it’s a useful lesson on boundaries, consequences, etc. for her.
Did she lie? She already told Jacob and his brother that their entire relationship was just a ploy for her to get to the baby, which is what she did. I really was liking Jacob though, but he turned out to be human too, and human’s always have a way of disappointing us. That’s why I stick with cats.
Can’t have relationship because there were things wrong with how it started. What strip is this, again?
Take a break, you two, and come back in a couple weeks.
Sketchy starts to relationships? Nah, never these kids. Why, just look at Ruth and Bil- Uh, Walky and Am-
…Just look at Becky and Dina.
Jacob, you’re a tight-assed fool.
That wicked cackle I heard in my dreams? I was SO sure it was my neighbors prepping for Halloween (an activity i am engaged in myself, so I approved) but…
IT WAS YOU WILLS, WASN’T IT??
So Jacob SAYS if she were honest it probably would have worked? That’s bullspit cuz he probably wouldn’t have broken up with Radiah because she fits his brothers list so why would he entertain Joyce’s feelings? The only reason he entertained it cuz his brother was proud he colored outside the lines and didn’t follow his example and was his own man. So his honesty is best was a bullspit answer and wouldn’t have changed anything because HIS BROTHER’S opinion matters more than his feelings and that of Joyce’s or Radiah’s feelings.
It is also worth noting that Jacob said he wanted Joyce to be in his life… right up until his brother got on that elevator.
The last thing we see him say that might be relevant* is while they’re still at the table: “It was fun playing pretend for a little bit though.” With a definite concerned look on his face.
Maybe he was still sorting things out, rather than deliberately messing with her.
Agreed, Jacob is a slave to his brother’s opinion and his actions here were shitty.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. He was considering his feelings for Joyce only AFTER his brother approved of her. It would not have “worked out” before.
And I must admit I though Jacob would be good for Joyce until this strip, but this made me rapidly reevaluate.
Ha…haha..ahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(I mean shitty move on Jacob’s part, shouldn’t have kissed her, and you took part in the lie too, willingly. But still, HA!)
Oh.. Oh no.. ;-;
Now the new checklist can be checked to see if Sarah makes it.
Heh. It’s rough sailing, but plan “get Sarah and Jacob together” is still a go!
Damn, Jacob walking away after kissing somebody for 3 days must take some willpower
This is much more mature than I was expecting. And Jacob is being more than fair to Joyce, and himself, and Raidah.
Jacob acted like a mature adult. Color me surprised. I bet he will come back next page for more kissing.
I wouldn’t call anything about what Jacob just did “mature”.
See, but if you let stuff mature enough, it gets rotten, making “rotten” just… “mature plus”, so it’s SORT of right.
How unfortunate
Aww
It makes sense but I’m still sad.
I’ve been upset about this comic all day – like, it has legit been bothering me while I drive places – and I finally figured out why.
This is gas-lighting.
Earlier, Joyce apologized for her actions and offered to come clean and then stay away from Jacob forever.
JACOB then indicated that A) she should stay, and more importantly B) that he still liked her and wanted her to be part of his life. As a friend.
Then Jacob kissed her. To any reasonable person, this indicates sexual and/or romantic interest.
Then, Jacob immediately turns around and tells her that she isn’t good enough for him.
He is emotionally jerking her around, cruelly, for no damn reason.
If he wasn’t going to date her, he shouldn’t have given her the false hope of the kiss. That is cruel and only serves to mess with her head.
Also, I would point out that he wanted her to “be in his life” when it served fooling his brother but dropped her immediately after Harrison got on that elevator.
So yeah, what I’ve been feeling is extreme anger at Jacob for screwing with Joyce’s head, manipulating her to his ends and then cruelly hurting her.
After this, I don’t think I want Joyce anywhere near Jacob – he’s clearly a psychopath. Mike should take notes – he has clearly met his match.
As for Joyce – yeah, she deserves better.
Please. Jacob’s clearly conflicted here, not trying to screw with her. Here Joyce created the situation and he just stumbled around in it. I don’t think he can really be blamed for not sticking with indicating he wanted her to stay – he was likely still sorting out his feelings right then. The kiss is arguably crappy, but it certainly does indicate his sexual and romantic interest. Which exists, even if he’s not going to follow through with it. Again, conflicted.
I also don’t really see it as her not being good enough for him, but as he says “shouldn’t have started this way”.
Jacob’s certainly not covering himself with glory here, but I don’t think it’s intentionally gaslighting. Certainly not psychopathic. Nor nearly Mike’s level. Mike would have set this all up for that purpose.
I do think it’s significant that he kissed Joyce when his brother was gone. I read it as his succumbing, selfishly, to plain and simple desire, a moment of respite from the pangs of a guilty conscience (he’s deceived both Harrison AND Raidah). Jacob is conflicted between what he really wants and how he wants to be perceived — a pretty common conundrum for the kids in this comic. And yes, this conflict made him act in a shitty way towards Joyce in this instance. It’s shitty. It’s also human. He’s his own worst enemy here and Joyce is suffering some of the splashback. This is nowhere near the same thing as deliberate manipulation.
Yeah, whether intentionally or not it was all a giant mind fuck and messed up. The kiss was just skeevy, especially considering Joyce’s sexual trauma history.
I agree mostly, but I really don’t think Jacob is a psychopath. The kiss+ walk-away is asshole behaviour for sure and I agree that he is cruelly jerking Joyce around, but I don’t think that’s psychopathic.
Or even intentional/ conscious in any way, but of course that doesn’t make it less hurtful.
I feel like it’s important to note that gas-lighting refers specifically to manipulating someone by psychological means into questioning their own sanity. That’s not what Jacob is doing here. He clearly seems to be struggling with his own behavior and Joyce’s. I agree that he’s been emotionally jerking her around and that the kiss in particular was really insensitive and cruel, and that it’s unfair to put so much of this situation on Joyce when she’s already offered to come clean and fix things. But Jacob isn’t really gaslighting here.
This is a dick move, it’s shitty and it sucks. But it’s not gaslighting.
He’s definitely hurting her, but I doubt he’s doing it on purpose. Young adults and teenagers are emotional, and lash out without rationally thinking stuff through. Even doing stuff that can be easily read as manipulative, or even be misleading or manipulative, while not actually intending it to be (which is the difference to a psychopath, or other kinds of people who emotionally or psychologically manipulate).
Also I get why Jacob isn’t being the most rational right now. He lied to his brother, he’s gonna lose his girlfriend, and likely lose a friend as well. This sucks, for everybody.
Same; it’s been bugging me all day. He tried to lay this all on her; she beguiled him and he lied to his brother.
And he played with her emotions; she has practically zero dating experience.
There’s still a lot of potential to this relationship but Jacob isn’t exactly the high ground here. He needs to really look at his actions.
I do agree with people here saying that this isn’t just him being a dick but more of an emotional kid response. I’m just annoyed with all the credit he seems to be getting in the comments overall.
The kissing her when he’s probably already made up his mind is pretty dickish. He’s finally letting himself do what he wants but reigning himself in but at the same time completely ignoring how Joyce feels about the whole thing.
Then there’s what he says to Joyce. The this isn’t how it should of happened/you just should of told me is a combination of BS and get over it. 1. Her just telling him how she feels ignores the entire debate they had when they were stuck together at the restaurant. 2. This isn’t how it should of happened thing get over it if you really like her deal with it she lied to your brother and you apparently do to because of how much you like her and you can’t get past or work through it BS.
The next thing that bothers me is how he puts the blame for his lying to his brother on her. I don’t know if I even believe he did that because he liked her I find it just as plausible he did it because he just really wanted to avoid an awkward situation with his brother.
Beyond all this whatever I ship Joyce and Joe anyway.
Being a dick and being an emotional teenager is not mutually exclusive.
Correct me if I’m wrong… but isn’t that Joyce’s first kiss?
That’s not going to be a good association for her… having it come with a rejection.
Granted, she brought it on herself, but still.
Technically she also kissed both Ethan and Becky.
She was even beating herself up back in the day over Ethan being her first kiss.
Currently waiting for Joyce to go and talk to Joe about all this. A sort of “you were right, but also wrong, and now everything sucks, and I should probably have listened to you”.
Give me more Joyce/Joe heart-to-hearts!
I also ship them but I feel like it won’t ever actually happen. I can dream, though.
uuuuuuh I mean I understand but come on.
Willis giveth, Willis taketh.
Yes I’ll put down $50 on Dorothy and Jacob getting together next.
I was dating a guy who wanted me to break up with him & had started upping his dick game so that he wouldn’t have to do it himself. I met a really cute guy & kissed him & hung out with him for a few days. When I realized that the kiss wasn’t just a little flirtation I broke up with my boyfriend so I could kiss him again without guilt. This was almost 13 years ago. I’m now married & have a child with the cute guy I kissed.
Sometimes we start things wrong. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we have the wrong person, just that we have some growing to do. We became better people together. I am no longer that person. I wouldn’t behave like that now, but I do have a lot of empathy for this situation & it makes me sad.
I forgot this is the dumbingofage theme. Beautiful relationships paired with dumb decisions.
Joyce, in the next panel: “Waaaaiiiit, I think he might be into me! Oh, well.”
Hmm. Even more annoyed now. Its rude to sudden kiss someone (regardless of situation apparent obvious feelings).
More so to kiss someone and then immediately “nope” out.
Thw whole arc so far has badically been a fake dating shipfic and i kinda lpve it