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He’s toedead
god damn it
Yeah, I’d bet on it.
Yeah, if he wasn’t dead when the fighting started, he’s bled out by now. That’s the problem with ball-peen-size holes in the cranium: the bleed like red socks in a load of white towels.
So presuming for a minute that he is (dead), he feels like he was a good Christian all his life – anybody here think he went up to heaven? Or to the other place…
Answers on the back of an email please to: (address redacted) xD
He was proofessing he was a good Christian but he had some rather un-Christain like things against him. If he felt a twinge of remorse ffor what he did and was able to pray for forgiveness before he croaked I’d say he made it to heaven.nm Otherwise…
Nonsense. If he was predestined to heaven then he did and if not, otherwise.
Alternate, in those branches of the quantum wave where he requested and received salvation, he was in no matter what he subsequently did.
You know, I’m convinced that the only reason Dirac wasn’t burned at the stake was that no one understood the theological implications of Quantum Field Theory.
He’s definitely in The Good Place. Ted Danson is waiting to do his entry interview.
Alright, I’m gonna be serious for a minute. Might regret it later.
Couple things to take into account. If he’s the baptist variety, which his behavior seem to suggest mostly, he’s good to go. He was washed in the blood, and will be forgiven for his sins when he dies. He wasn’t the best man, but he believed he was working to help the people he cared about.
Alternately, in almost any form of christianity, if you are saved and get murdered, you go to heaven. You accepted christ as your savior, congrats, live a good life and you’ll go to heaven. If your journey is ended early by someone else(killed, any reason or way) its an auto pass express ticket. Seriously, according to some versions of the bible as long as you haven’t already condemned your soul to hell with horrid enough actions, early death is a free ride. I’m surprised no one’s made a homicide cult of it, just have one dude surprise kill like 40 followers and they all get heaven.
Either way, yeah, at least 95% chance he went to heaven, even with his issues.
I’m going to cheat and not answer the question asked, but rather an adjacent one. If we are assuming that the options are traditional Christian Heaven and Hell, eternal places of paradise and suffering, respectively, then I would say that he SHOULD be in Heaven–because no human born, no matter how evil they could be, would deserve eternal torment without respite.
Now, if you opt for other definitions–for instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that those not admitted to Heaven simply cease to exist, while CS Lewis’ Great Divorce posited that “Hell” is simply Purgatory that you haven’t gotten out of, yet (he then fouled it up by saying that there was going to be a final reckoning when anyone stuck in Hell would be forced to remain, but it started out pretty solidly). In such cosmologies, one might allow for Toedad to go to someplace other than Heaven.
Damn! You should write Sam Spade novels with that imagery!
Probably.
*slow clap*
Well crap
raptured
or raptured, idk
meanwhile, Blaine is raptor’d
that’s what I meant, fuckin phone
Oh. I thought you meant ruptured.
Ruptured
Ruptured, more like.
“Well, right now he’s all over your…”
And then Ross comes out with a complete personality change, like that guy who got impaled by a iron rod but in a good way, right?
Right?
Fineas gage ?
Phineas.
That’s probably the most optimistic suggestion for how Ross is doing at this point.
What, Ash? He got totally impaled by cold iron while chasing the pale lady, but it didn’t affect his personality (at least not as we have seen).
I’m choosing to believe that there was a euphemism there somewhere, but I’m not really sure.
Is this about Pokémon?
Well, that fight went a lot smoother than I expected. Sleep-deprived Amber is now terrifying.
So in the Batman: Arkham games the more enemies you have in a given encounter the less damage they take from attacks, and I’ve heard justifications that it’s because the more people Bruce has to worry about at a single time, the less he can be sure of what any given mook would take so he pulls his punches even more to refrain from killing anyone, at least until the crowd is small enough that the game puts enemies down more quickly.
Now, a sleep-deprived Batman would probably be less able to gauge what a mook could take and may opt to pull his punches less as to keep himself and the people he’s rescuing safe.
True, but you could have said “Amber is terrifying,” and left it at that.
He kinda stubbed his toe.
I don’t care if someone already made this joke, don’t @ me
A few years ago, I think.
toedad more like toeDEAD
…too soon?
Too late. Somebody made it yesterday, and there’s another up top.
And I made it like five days ago, and even with the “more like” line, BWA-HAHAHAHA!
Now if you had said toeDECEASED…
Yes, definitely toe soon.
Becky is going to find out that she has more in common with Ruth.
Big yikes
I am unsure as to what reaction is appropriate for this situation.
Black Confetti?
Noisemakers that make the sad trombone sound.
Angst is almost always appropriate. Abject horror at our eventual but inevitable impending doom runs a close second.
Funny you say all those things…
yeah
Becky finding her other parent dead-or-dying
that’s gonna be just
great
Toedad. . is likely not doing too well at this point. Still he held Worst Dad off for quite a bit considering those two HAMMER jobs to the head. Genuinely impressive that.
Also I totally forgot that Becky’s last name was Macintyre.
As a mnemonic device, her name’s really close to the country singer’s.
Becky “the orphan ” McIntyre.
Fun fact: Until you posted that link, I thought Reba was short for Rebecca, and thus Rebecca “Becky” Macintyre was named after Rebecca “Reba” McEntire.
“Where is Mr. Macintyre?”
“He’s at work”
“Oh ok, where does he work again?”
“I N T H E H O L E!”
*dramatic sting*
Where’s Becky’s dad?
He’s up on the roof and won’t come down.
Oh, tell him to say hi to grandma.
One of my favorite TomSka sketches
I’m torn between hoping Ross is dead so he’s no longer a threat to Becky and… Not wanting Becky to go through the death of her last “family” member. (Yes Joyce is her family but based on her interactions with her dad she doesn’t want him DEAD.) Knowing how she tends to bottle things up, I’m honestly scared she’ll blame herself even though her dad is a horrible, abusive person. Also, Amber’s face in the last panel is giving me straight up anxiety. I’m so nervous for how this arc is going to end. 🙁
Toedad can’t be dead can he? I thought no one was supposed to die? Ryan got turned into pin cushion with a knife. Surely Toedad is just bleeding and concussed?
Dammit. Why do I not want him to die?
Willis mentioned on Twitter months ago that he’d broken one of his long-standing major rules in a then-upcoming chapter…and there is the warning Willis put up at the beginning of this chapter.
Oh Becky. 🙁
The next chapter (which is also the final chapter of Book 10) is also titled Is A Song Forever?, which is the same title as the epilogue chapter to Roomies – the original Walkyverse webcomic, and which Dumbing of Age is a sort-of reboot/re-imagining of.
So, like, that doesn’t make things less apprehension-inducing, either.
I choose to believe the final chapter of DOA consists entirely of Head Alien turning off the TV set and commenting to Sensitive Scanner, “That was a weird episode.”
If Amber/Amazigirl killed him, no matter whether he deserved it or not, that wouldn’t be good for her. You can see the shock in her face in the last panel. And I’m not talking about whether or not she would land up in jail (I think any half-decent lawyer could make a good case for self-defense). She would have to live with the fact that she got to a point where she killed someone. Amber has been through enough trauma and doesn’t need any more.
Amber didn’t kill Ross. She didn’t even get to touch him yet. BLAINE would eb the one who killed him.
Thank you. I thought Blaine did it. Of course, knowing her dad is a murderer isn’t going to be good for Amber’s mental state either.
Blaine did it, didn’t he? I thought Blaine hit him with that hammer he was carrying.
So then she saw it and got the blood splatter on her? I can’t see her just walking away from that. Did she kill Blaine?
No, she didn’t. Yes, she got blood on her from fighting Blaine because BLAINE got a fuckton of Ross’ blood on him.
Thanks. Things are getting confuzzing here.
I actually think the word that got left out when she trailed off was “dad.” “Whose blood was all over my dad?” I don’t really see blood on her as being the issue of conversation.
Probably, yes.
“…blood all over my father.”
Not only did Blaine hit him in the head with a hammer, presumably he hit him at least three times because we still saw the Toe standing after receiving two hammer blows to the head while Blain did not yet have the bloody handprint on his face.
It would be a nice twist if the character who died was Mr MacIntyre instead of Mike, our resident Heroic Comedic Sociopath.
Yes. I do fear breaking a rule is not necessarily one instance..
Because at all times he was certain he was in the right, and it’s a fantasy we can all empathize with?
Because he never demonstrated any enjoyment at the suffering of others?
Because he was a bad person but not in fact a monster?
Because he was pitiable?
Because on some level we know he loved his daughter.
All good points, Zach. He was deluded and completely wrong, but he wasn’t a sociopath. He honestly thought he was doing was was best for his daughter. I know intent is not magic, but I had a therapist once (when I was talking about my not-so-great but *definitely* better than Toedad father) who said that sometimes the reasons *why* someone is abusive or neglectful can be important. Sometimes people are indoctrinated into certain belief structures, grew up a certain way, were abused themselves, etc. and don’t have the strength or insight or support structure to change.
tl;dr: Someone being a butt because they believe their butt-ness is the right thing is a terrible person.
Someone being a butt because they CAN, even though they know the difference and just want to hurt people, is worse.
… I’d have to agree.
Having been raised by a parent who harbored hurtful beliefs (and suffered from paranoid delusions, which is whole ‘nother can of worms), I’d like to offer two cents — it’s wholly (and sadly) possible that a parent loves you, but nonetheless acts in a way that’s harmful and traumatic.
Intent doesn’t make their actions right. Love and belief don’t excuse harm. But, yeah, there is (imo) a marked difference between Toedad and Blaine.
Some consolation though, that he was willing to die for her freedom. In a way not just the freedom of his own daughter, but the freedom of a whole group of people’s children was bought with his life. I believe ‘we’ can be thankful for this virtue.
They were only in mortal danger in the first place because he put them there, on purpose.
He was a monster, and one of the things we definitely know about him is that he didn’t love his daughter–or care about her at all.
He has a possession called “Becky,” and occasionally it makes unpleasant noise with its face and he’ll break it to make it stop. That is not love of a person.
This.
He made mouth noises about loving his daughter. He may have wanted to believe that he loved his daughter. But he never even saw his daughter.
This. This, this this.
That was perfectly worded.
Yeah, let’s not give Ross too much sympathy here. He’s a different type of abusive parent than Blaine, but he’s still pretty damn awful.
I don’t want him dead, but only because I think that’d be worse for Becky.
Agreed. Honestly I consider him only a slightly different variation of Blaine’s abuse. Blaine won’t even pretend he thinks of the people he’s attached to as anything but property, but Ross makes a show of being concerned for their souls… which is why they need to fit into the extremely narrow, suffocating holes his religion allows for them. He didn’t know Becky at all. He probably contributed to Bonnie’s sense of despair. I somehow suspect that if we started digging into the family situations, there’d be a lot of similarities between what Bonnie and Yuri are “allowed” to do. (Seriously, I will eat my hat if Yuri has actual access to the family finances, just because Blaine pings just the right alarms to me for “gives his wife an ‘allowance’ for things like groceries” in addition to the certain embezzling.)
He threatened Becky with a gun and an explicit “I will get myself killed in a police shootout if you don’t go with me”. I’m only sad if he dies because the last thing Becky needs is the complicated emotions his death will bring up for her.
It could also be argued that dying while holding off Blaine would be a very poetic (and classical) form of redemption by blood for toedad, cf. Christian teachings of salvation through Jesus’ death.
Only if toedad was fighting for a noble reason (eg. To let the kids escape.) More likely he was fighting Ross out of anger/vengeance, and it was by luck the students were able to make use of it.
Actually, he was fighting in self defense after Blaine suddenly turned on him in fury for following the plan that Blaine had outlined.
I thought he was just fighting him because he didn’t like having his skull bashed with a hammer?
This.
The best part is, we will never know what he was thinking.
But we will know the last thing to go through Toedad’s mind.
Maybe. But he wasn’t defending Becky.
because as awful as he was, his death is going to play havoc with his kid?
1- Joyce, you don’t have to STAY THERE and deliver the message personally. Becky has a PHONE! She proved this when she called her dad!
2- If anyone is actually worried about Ross, they’d be calling an ambulance right now. And again, the cops. Or maybe all EMTs are infested by the mafia and can’t be trusted. And the caps of course.
3- “NO HUCK, we can’t leave! We have to chain him to the bedpost first!!”
Becky may have a phone, but I’m not sure Joyce does.
(And yes, Joyce did pick up a cell phone from the counter…But, the phone may be locked. If that’s the case, it can only be used for 9-1-1 calls.)
Amber got her phone from the dorm, though.
That said, Becky not going there would then depend on her listening to Joyce. “Becky, DON’T COME HERE. We’re all fine and have escaped. Oh, also, your dad may be dead or dying in the basement.”
And she could leave off the last part, but then she’s withholding some pretty important information from Becky.
You are right… I hadn’t considered that Amber would have collected her phone when she returned to the Dorm.
I am pretty sure Becky would listen if Joyce told her “don’t go to the house”. I doubt she would be dumb enough to go to the house anyways for some sort of father/daughter reconciliation. And yes, Joyce could leave off the “your dad’s dead”, but tell her later (after everyone is safe and Joyce can talk to Becky face-to-face.)
Becky’s phone is fairly new. Joyce may not know the number offhand.
Dorothy may know the number (since she and Becky communicate regularly about election strategy). Same with Dina. And Amber [i]may[/i] have her number preprogramed in her phone. (I don’t know if Amber and Becky interact regularly, but given they share a familiarity with Dina it is a possibility.)
Does anybody memorize new numbers now that listing them by name in phones is standard? Heck, sometimes people put new numbers in their phones without actually looking at them the first time. “Can you put your number in my phone?” or “Call/Text me and I’ll add you to my contacts.”
If Dorothy heard Becky’s number, she heard it once.
When I get a phone call, even if the number is preprogrammed I get both the person’s name and the calling number when I receive a call.
I may not necessarily set out to specifically memorize the number, but I end u seeing it often enough when I get a call that it eventually sinks in.
Very much depends on the person then. My husband may have had the same number for the 17 years I’ve known him. I emailed it to myself so I can find it if my phone battery dies/I’m in my office and left it at home. I hardly ever need to dial it or look it up so I haven’t absorbed it yet.
I know our land-line though and we”ve had it less long. But occasionally get it mixed up with the doctor’s since the first 3 digits are the same. (Same for our village primary and preschools; it might be a constant across our village and at least part of a close one.) Because we have poor mobile signal at home though I tend to give out the land-line number reasonably regularly (and prefer calling the doctor’s from it so physically dial them).
I’m not expecting any of them to be thinking rationally about how to deal with Ross after being kidnapped by him in a basement, being threatened at gunpoint/knowing your friends were a month or two back, and now facing the very real possibility he may already be dead.
On the other hand, Dina is remarkably blase about the possibility Blaine can’t breathe, and no one answered her question.
Does anybody really know if Blaine can breathe? Does anybody really care?
If so, I can’t imagine why.
The only reason I can see any of them really caring is that they don’t actually want to be MURDERERS. Same reason I think anyone in this room but Joyce (who, righteous fury aside, is still gonna have an emotional reaction to someone she knew basically her whole life and trusted up until these last few months dying,) will care if Toedad’s dead or not – that shit’s traumatic.
damn, I can’t think of any other Chicago lyrics to reply with here…
I completely missed that until you pointed it out, but once I got it I grinned.
Needfuldoer,
Chicago song reference? Rhyme and meter fit so exactly, it set my boomer senses tingling. Maybe coincidence? Original lyrics:
Does anybody really know what time it is
Does anybody really care?
Yup, Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is? off their debut album, before the real Chicago Transit Authority told them to shorten their name.
it’s an honor thing, Shane. SOMEONE has to tell Becky what happened. It’s also a practical thing, in that the other living witnesses will lie about it. Not just ‘can’ but ‘will’ lie about it. SOMEONE will have to tell Becky what her father did-even if it’s the lies that elevate us instead of the truths that degrade us, because Becky’s lost her fam-damily dammit.
what was he fighting for? who cares? He fought Blaine, which bought them time to get un-bound and able to fight their abductors and free themselves. Whether he was trying to retain a possession, or had an epiphany that what he was involved with was wrong, doesn’t matter-because it won’t matter to her. What will matter is that her DADDY is dead, that he died from having his brains bashed out with a ball-peen hammer by a genuine psychopath named Blaine.
it’s the only ‘truth’ that she needs.
Oh and yeah Amazigirl, she didn’t just drop her life, her job, her girlfriend, and start wandering the land as an unemployed hobo forever just because you suggested it.
Seriously get some sleep and some counseling.
While it may be a bit… extreme to think Becky would drop her life and become an unemployed hobo at Amazigirl’s suggestion, I don’t think it would be too radical to expect Becky to at least stay away from the house during the kidnapping.
Becky should have known that Amazigirl PROBABLY had a plan, and was fairly capable. Showing up at the house and potentially giving the group one more hostage would have been dumb.
But Becky also had a plan and is fairly capable.
The alternative being: going with her dad and dropping her girlfriend, job, social life. Quite similar. The big difference between fleeing as AG suggested and surrender is that in fleeing she has her freedom limited less.
Much depends on what Becky thinks are the chances of kidnappers releasing hostages who can identify them.
Becky has a phone. She used it to call her father. You can call her and tell her to stay away. Might be better than letting her come there.
That does require that Becky listen to Joyce about staying away, though.
And that’s not a Becky thing to do.
Becky would have no reason to believe Joyce wasn’t telling her that under duress. She has no way to know the hostages freed themselves and have subdued Toedad and the Blaine and the Bros.
Except the bad guys wanted her there. If Joyce was being forced to lie, she wouldn’t be telling Becky to stay away.
Huh. I guess they can fight ruthlessly (no pun intended). Dina especially has the attitude I was not seeing enough of yesterday. Even in cold blood – which is ironic given what was believed about dinosaurs when I was a kid.
To be fair, Ross is also a b-hole.
Well, okay, was also a b-hole.
Interesting. Amazi-Girl recognizes Blaine as her father.
AG’s always seemed fully aware of their memories pre-split, and she and Amber only stopped sharing memories and talking to each other a couple weeks ago, after the stabbing.
Besides, Blaine’s part of her origin story.
Also also, AG watched Blaine put on the mask for the first time.
Maybe. I personally think AG was about to say ‘nemesis’.
ToeDead is all over…
The basement floor.
Well I’m glad that fight scene is over, now its back to what I like best about this strip
oh yeah. amazi-girl wasn’t there for the ball-peen party.
Have to admit, I rather like the change in Joyce between panels 4 to 6, as se starts to piece together what might have happened to Ross.
(Ok, I don’t like how it would actually impact Joyce, but I’m impressed with the artwork/character development.)
Toedead can’t be dead!
Contradicting yourself there, buddy.
I will allow this to be Freudian slip due to time.
I’m betting on intentional humor.
Schrodinger’s Toedad is both alive and dead until you open the basement door.
The live Toedad and the dead Toedad don’t affect each other much because of decoherence. After you open the basement door he’s still both alive and dead, but there’s a quantum superposition of a you that sees a live Toedad and a you that sees a dead Toedad. Unless you believe in Copenhagen magic.
My lecturer in sophomore physics did insist very strongly on Copenhagen magic.
Joyce, leaving and getting a distance where you can still see the house (to see if anyone escapes) but far enough to not be kidnapped again is the best plan. You can call the police from Blaine’s phone you took (once Walky, Sarah and AG get a safe distance), an ambulance for Ross and call Becky to give her the all clear.
To the humor-impaired heathens who dissed Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality last night – Just kidding, I know different people have different tastes.
But seriously, lots of people actually liked it. I like it well enough to binge-read it repeatedly. I find some parts laugh-out-loud funny, and other parts thought-provoking, even on re-reading.
In addition to the wonderfully wicked chaos that Harry inflicts upon his newly discovered world, there’s also a fair bit of serious exploration of human psychology and cognitive errors. Everyone should know what’s important about Milgram and Zimbardo and another dozen similarly weighty ideas. HPMOR may not be your spoonful of sugar to help that medicine go down. But if you haven’t tried it, please don’t avoid it because of the people who diss it.
I suspect there’s a correlation between liking Ender’s Game and liking HPMOR. They both feature a highly gifted kid thrown into a situation where he has to grow up in order to survive – and “grow up” in both cases means, in part, “unleash the killing instinct.” I’d be curious to hear from anyone who liked one of them but not both.
Yeah, I got to the part Draco said rape is cool in the wizarding world because Obliviate exists and stopped.
Draco was 100% a bad guy and was presented that way – at that point in the story he was perhaps comparable with a preteen Brock Turner. Part of the point of the story is how easily people can be really vile and not seem vile or think they’re vile because that’s part of human nature and culture.
Harry, the moment he heard it, formed a resolution to overthrow the government of magical Britain ASAP. He also, over the next several months, spent much effort humanizing Draco, and partly succeeded.
I can see why you wouldn’t want to read past that point. There are other points in the story where human nature is presented pretty bluntly. Like, what kind of monsters send criminals to Azkaban? The everyday ordinary citizen kind, that’s who.
That doesn’t make the story shitty, though. It’s hard to fix problems we can’t see clearly or talk about plainly.
I’m not interested in such a childishly attempt at being edgy in the wizarding world, overthrowing or not, and I’m not interested in spending a ton of effort humanizing mini Brock Turner.
I think you’d probably enjoy most of Sheri S. Tepper’s books (I enjoy about half of them, and frequently recommend A Gate To Women’s Country).
There are certainly people who are not worth saving – maybe not possible to save. And there’s no universal duty to reform bad people. But some bad people are bad by default and worth improving.
I do not think there was any attempt at being edgy, either on Draco’s part or on the author’s part. If you saw childish edginess, I think you misunderstood – and then I’m not surprised you hated it. What I saw was a bleak-but-accurate picture of parts of human nature, and many attempts to find ways to improve the world including human nature.
I want to clarify – when I said “humanize” Draco, I didn’t mean “present him as more human” – I meant “actually change him to be a lot more humane.” Again, no one has to be interested in projects like this, but it is sometimes worth doing.
I can’t look at any depiction of the books and turning it in fanfic – one supposedly based in rationality no less – and goes ‘yeah, this society is fine with rape because memory wiping spells exist’ and it is definitely an attempt at being edgy and that’s just childish, no matter who’s doing it. Wizarding society in HP had plenty of problems – you brought up Azkaban for one. A society being cool with rape is not one of them. That’s not a ‘bleak-but-accurate’ look at human nature. Just because I didn’t like it does not mean I misunderstood it.
I understood what you meant with Draco but I still had the taste in my mouth of him saying he wanted to rape Luna so no, I didn’t care about it. I’m also really not a fan of how much they bastardized Ron’s character, the smarter than thou tone (especially with Harry, who’s a smug, self centred little prick) and how the author is clearly trying for deep understanding of physics and psychology but doesn’t have the in-depth understanding of either needed to pull it off. The psychology is oversimplified (my favourite is where the story takes the frigging Stanford Prison experiment seriously) and the physics is just awful. And this one is more of a stylistic quibble, but none of the kids act like kids or teenagers. I don’t care how rational he’s supposed to be, he’s 11 at the start of the story.
I’d also argue it’s really not ‘Harry, but raised as a rationalist’. It changed a LOT of the story and character elements. That’s fine, it’s an AU, but it’s really not just a representation of Harry being raised as a rationalist instead as it’s often purported to be.
I have more issues with it but I’m going to leave it here. I did not like it and I didn’t think it was a good story at all.
I agree that the story changes much, much more than Harry’s upbringing. I think it’s necessary to make the world internally consistent. There’s one point where I disagree with you, though. The ideas of Draco are not those of the wizarding world. Ron, McGonagoll, or anyone you ask in the school would call you a sociopath. The reason Draco is so blasé about it, is he’s trying to show off to Harry.
Everyone has their own taste in stories and I personally loved HPMOR. Didn’t read the comments yesterday, so I might do that just to see how we got on this topic.
Okay there was a lot less discussion there than anticipated. Sorry for fueling this one…
I don’t mind changing things in an AU to make a story work, I DO mind when you present the story as ‘reacting to the world via rationality’ because that is very much not what happened (notwithstanding the author is a pseudo intellectual with no actual expertise in physics or psychology who wouldn’t know rationality if it hit him in the face).
And Ron or McGonagall are never given the chance to react to this assertion it’s okay in the wizarding world because in this story Ron is useless because ‘he’s unintelligent’ (which, fuck right off with that noise, author) and McGonagall because she doesn’t immediately accept an 11 year old is supposedly smarter than her. The assertion is treated with all seriousness including Harry planning to overthrow the Ministry.
I misunderstood you before.
The wizarding world did not think rape was cool. Its powers-that-be merely made it easy for powerful people to be un-accountable and horrible. Everyone could turn a blind eye to whatever happened – the same as the real world usually does. If Obliviate didn’t exist they would have found some other way not to hold powerful people accountable. Hell, our world has no magic at all, and Brock Turner still got a slap on the wrist!
I read one actual Harry Potter book long ago and barely remember anything, so I have no sense of loyalty to the original story.
I’m not sure how seriously HPMOR takes the Stanford Prison Experiment. According to Google search, the word “zimbardo” does not appear on hpmor.com. The chapters on Azkaban are titled “The Stanford Prison Experiment” but the text doesn’t explain it the way it does Milgram’s work.
The Wizarding World’s corruption and ability to let off powerful people (and indeed, society’s in general) is a valid look at the series. Adding a rape epidemic to the point an 11 year old casually wants to rape a 10 year old when they’re older is not. Especially because Obliviate is reversible in several ways.
There’s nothing wrong with not caring about the original series but when the premise of the fic is, ostensibly, examining the world with a rationalist lens, I don’t think I’m unreasonable by expecting the setting and characters to act like themselves (if with a more rationalist bent and more exploration of how the rules of magic actually operate).
About that – the author doesn’t apply Milgram’s work correctly either. The Dementors AREN’T “just following orders” in canon.
I seriously don’t understand why you would be turned off by a /realistic/ portrayal of how the worst among us would act in a fictional world. Wishing very fervently that such people did not exist and pretending that by not reading about them or seeing them in any way will make that fantasy true helps nobody.
I mean, if it’s a difficult topic for you and it makes you uncomfortable it’s fair that you choose not to invest any time in it, but otherwise consider the importance of seeing how other people deal with such evil.
Because it’s not in any fashion a realistic portrayal?
The whole thing is premised on taking a children’s series with clearly shaky worldbuilding and slapping his own equally shaky retrofit worldbuilding on top and pretending that’s “realism”. All in service of pushing his version of “rationality”.
But the simple fact remains: If that’s a world where wizards routinely rape Muggles, Obliviate them and their 11 year old kids casually boast about it, that’s because the author wanted it that way. Most generously, he’s just using it as “Puppy Kicking” – see how Evil they are.
^ Literally this. It’s one thing to give a serious exploration for how magic affects things like rape (even ignoring for a second Obliviate can be reversed in several ways), and another for an 11 year old to casually say he wants to rape a ten year old girl when he’s older because she says things that make his family look bad in the tabloids. 1) It’s not even in character for Draco, 2) That isn’t actually such a major part of the setting an eleven year old would spout that desire casually and 3) When you combine those two it looks a lot less like a serious look at the setting and a lot more like the author making a childish attempt to bring it up for shock value and THAT is when I close the damn story. Especially since this is framed as a rationalist look at the wizarding world through a Harry raised as a rationalist, so yeah, when the characters act nothing like themselves and it’s more like the author poking holes in problems he made up. That goes double when the author’s actual grip on the scientific and psychological concepts he brings up are shaky and misapplied more often than not.
It was also made very clear that he worshipped his father and wanted to be just like him when he grew up… And Harry made that impossible for him by making him actually think and use his frickin’ brain. And even though his father had taught him that there is a price for all knowledge, he wasn’t really prepared for that.
It’s not in character for Lucius either so that really doesn’t help.
In the original books, Tom Riddle/Voldemort’s mother uses a love potion to effectively rape voldemort’s dad, the original books just don’t even really bother to address that that’s what it is. It isn’t new to the series by any stretch.
That is one thing from the series that could have been explored in this fic. An eleven year old casually saying he wants to rape a ten year old for making his family look bad and saying he can just Obliviate her is not.
He did think genocide was cool in the actual books, and there were no repercussions for screaming terrorist threats at 12 years old.
I would never argue Draco wasn’t a perfectly poisonous little brat in the book but I never got any rape-y vibes off him and so I’m still gonna say that’s out of character.
I’m afraid that, with what I know about Orson Scott Card as a person, I can’t read his stuff anymore. I feel the same about Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Totally fair. Ender’s Game was a classic for a lot of years – and so were Woody Allen’s films. I’m not trying to push Ender’s Game here – just looking for opinions from the people who happen to have looked at both it and HPMOR.
Glaaargh… What don’t I want to know about somebody whose work I liked. .?
Card or Bradley?
Orson Scott Card is an enormous, and vocal, homophobe. I won’t read his stuff anymore because he is still alive and if I buy his books he is profiting off that sale.
Marion Zimmer Bradley – where do I start? Basically, do a google search for the entire story. I’m ashamed to say I had no idea about any of this until someone on the Tor website made a comment a couple of years ago. Bradley was married to Walter Breen, who sexually molested children and died in prison. Bradley’s daughter Moira came forwards a few years ago saying that Bradley had sexually molested her and her siblings and enabled Breen. Other people came forwards saying that Bradley and Breen (mostly Breen) had a reputation in the SFF convention circuit for inappropriate behaviour towards minors.
I’ll admit to loving “The Mists of Avalon” when I first read it, as well as some of Bradley’s other works (such as the Lythande stories, which were one of my first (unfortunate) introductions to Queerness). However, when I look back on these texts now, I can see the sexual fetishization of children, especially young girls, and the normalization (within the text) of incest.
The website Das-Sporking (on Dreamwidth) did an entire read and deconstruction of “The Mists of Avalon” from this perspective. IMHO it’s important but also upsetting reading.
PS: Okay, to be fair, my first introduction to Queer identity was probably the “Oz” series of books but I didn’t consciously realize that until years later.
So this bit of discussion made me think of an H. Bomberguy video in which, at some point in it, he addresses that H.P. Lovecraft was a terrible person, and a lot of queer folks find things that resonate with them in his work, even though he was terrible toward us in his life, and such. I feel like i saw another video at one point talking about content and content creators, and if consuming stuff made by horrible people makes you horrible or not…. but I can’t recall what that one was…
But Anyway, the H. Bomberguy video (Outsiders: How To Adapt H.P. Lovecraft In the 21st Century) seemed relevant to the discussion at hand regarding Orson Scott Card and Marion Zimmer Bradley. I’m gonna see if i can find that other video…
Hint. Enjoying stuff created by horrible people does not make you a horrible person. Once created, the work and the creator of the work have an independent existence. Choosing not to act to reward a horrible person who creates things you would greatly enjoy is completely legitimate. Hating the work solely because you hate the creator is human. Hating those who enjoy the work because work’s creator was horrible is human but stupid.
Though as Jaime says above, once you know it, it can change your reading of the stories. You start to see things in it that remind you of the creator’s real views and the work itself becomes less enjoyable.
Not so much with Lovecraft – the racism and other bigotry there is too overt, but Jaime describes it with Bradley and things like “Buggers” in Ender’s Game get pretty hard to look past once you know he’s a flaming homophobe.
HPL was an EXTREME racist in an era when racism was still the norm. OSC is still a homophobe today, and advocates against homosexuality. MZB was a child molester which has never been acceptable. I grew up reading and enjoying all their works. Its difficult to recommend them to anyone today despite the influence all three had on modern fantasy/sci-fi. I think Lovecraft is easier, because most folks know all about the racism. Its even been subverted by authors like in “The Ballad of Black Tom” and Lovecraft Country”. The other two… I haven’t read them again since I found out and I’m not sure if I ever will again. It all makes me sad.
Basically, Card is a deeply closeted self-loathing gay homophobe who has so deeply internalized the idea that he cannot be gay that he regards himself as a perfectly normal straight man and has externalized his struggle to -all- straight men. Literally, he believes that the desire to fuck other men is universal and absolutely must be suppressed by all men in order to keep society and the species going, and any man who fails in this is a despicable traitor who should be killed.
…Card is fucked up and I pity him, but he gives financial support to violent anti-gay organizations so pity isn’t enough. Do not give Orson Scott Card your money.
I don’t think there’s any real evidence Card is gay. Those basic beliefs are common in homophobic religions and don’t mean everyone who holds them is secretly gay.
In general, while there certainly are examples, I’m not real fond of the “homophobes are really closeted gays” meme. It kind of lets straight people off the hook.
I’m not fond of it either, but in the specific case of Card his entire body of work is screaming at me. I don’t know how more obvious it could be.
I’ve heard enough of it to know that it’s incredibly irrational.
“Unleash the killing instinct,” isn’t helping.
Many things in the story make more sense in context than as punchlines. Harry’s killing instinct was unusually strong for a reason, and it’s believable that it helped him when he needed it. Hermione, who had “the killing instinct of a bowl of wet grapes,” won lots of battles too.
Mentioned it yesterday:
“How on earth is the conclusion you come to “go maximum violence” from HPMOR when the main character goes to great lengths NOT to cause more pain and explains why they think that’s bad and unecessary? That you can draw such an opposite conclusion from what was written is kind of frightening.”
I did not draw anything close to “All violence all the time” from HPMOR.
What I was referring to was Harry’s discovery that sometimes you need unbridled violence.
SPOILERS AHEAD
Remember that Harry was quite willing to kill Lucius in cold blood; contemplated killing half the Wizengamot; killed the Death Eaters and calculated that their deaths were “pretty much OK”; had to talk himself out of feeling guilty for leaving Voldemort alive.
I think if HPMOR Harry Potter found himself in a room full of friends-of-rapists who were threatening to torture his friends and mobsters who were threatening to kill them, his reaction would be something like this:
“Last chance to live, Lucius. Ethically speaking, your life was bought and paid for the day you committed your first atrocity for the Death Eaters. You’re still human and your life still has intrinsic value, but you no longer have the deontological protection of an innocent. Any good person is licensed to kill you now, if they think it’ll save net lives in the long run; and I will conclude as much of you, if you begin to get in my way.”
The whole story resounds with Harry’s poor decision making and he ultimately concludes that the violent instinct is just one more bad habit of cognition to break, that it’s better not to perpetrate more violence and pain if there’s any other way at all.
Which there clearly was, since the situation in this comic is clearly well under control.
When they have magic that can flawlessly incapacitate–and easy to use compared to magic that can kill–it’s completely illogical to kill anyone ever.
Heck, that’s a logical flaw in the original books that could be addressed!
“Voldemort is immune to death!”
“Okay cool, I wasn’t actually trying to kill him. Stupify! There, battle over.”
(The weird thing is I’ve seen fans notice this logical flaw and then suggest just shooting him. Which is, again, the only thing he’s immune to. It’s a bizarre response!)
I liked Ender’s Game when I first read it, but it’s been a long time and I’ve soured a lot on Card since then. And frankly, the deeper you look at Ender’s Game, the creepier it gets. HPMOR isn’t as subtle. It definitely can have a similar appeal – in both cases they’re wish fulfillment for nerdy teen boys.
It sounds like something that would work better if it weren’t fanfiction, to me. Like, if it was a parody but with original characters, I might be more willing to try it out. Based on the description here (and having read a very small amount of it a while back), I still don’t think I’d like it, but I’d be more open to it.
Which is funny, because I strongly suspect the only reason it’s a fan fiction is because he could get more people to read it that way.
Though it’s possible it did start out as one of those “All these characters are so stupid, why aren’t they doing what I can so clearly see they should do. Not to mention exploiting all the loopholes in the magic rules” fan fics.
I do not like Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. For one thing, the underlying philosophies are mostly pretentious nonsense. For another, it’s not really Harry Potter, it’s a massive fix-fic; i.e. the author changes the original source to make it how the author thinks it “ought” to be. And like most fix-fics, the changes are, by and large, for the worse. The characters barely even act like real people, and certainly not like their real selves. The whole story comes across as written by someone who hates human nature merely because they don’t actually understand it.
“Oh that. No sorry my flow was actually like…SUPER heavy this month”
So, you’re saying Sarah answers that question?
“Quick, Becky, do you remember if Jesus ever said anything about when someone who once drove you to S-Six Flags is b-beaten to death in front of you.”
(that’s right, it’s three links for the price of one)
The law has to get involved in this at some point. At least so these goons go to jail. But how are they going to manage this without blowing AG’s secret identity, to the extent it can even be called “secret,” since now pretty much everyone except Blaine knows who she is. No way they can all keep it secret when the police investigate what happened here. It’s not rocket science to figure it out at this point.
It’s already required suspension of disbelief that law enforcement isn’t investigating the violent vigilantes on campus, esp after the kidnapping. If the police don’t bother to find AG now, might as well bring in the Head Alien.
The only thing that makes rational sense would be if she were arrested, charged, found cookooer than cocopuffs, and put on probation with mandatory counseling. Do we know how old she is? I hope she’s not yet 18.
And in spite of all that, I fully expect Willis will give us a resolution that makes it all work out without destroying Amber or putting her in jail.
All characters that have appeared in Willis’s Slipshines are 18+ (some are older, such as 19-year-old Dorothy and 20-year-old Sarah).
Are you telling me I should sign up for Slipshine?
Oh well, so much for Amber’s getting off because she’s a traumatized minor.
Well, who would know that Amber is Amazigirl?
Joyce, Dorothy, Sarah, etc. do. In theory they could lie and say that the kidnappers let Amber go to let her CONTACT amazigirl.
Blaine is in deep denial/ignorance.
Ross might be dead.
That leaves the henchmen. Its possible that none of them were in earshot when Amber admitted her Amazigirl alter ego. A couple of them were told at some point that they were “letting Amazigirl go”, but they were also told by blaine that Amber definitely couldn’t be Amazigirl, and that she just said she was because she was a coward who wanted to escape.
And remember Ryan figured out Amber=Amazigirl, yet the cops weren’t able to find enough hard evidence to prove the connection. (She had her outfit well hidden.) It may not be realistic from a real-world perspective, but from a comic-book perspective they could probably find enough excuses to claim her identity is still secret.
Actually, Ryan only assumed she was AmaziGirl. The fact that she tried to kill him when AmaziGirl tended to make jokes at him during their fight at the rally probably would lead him to conclude that he was very wrong about who she was.
Well the police did search Amber’s room after the attack (but she had hidden her costume and the cops couldn’t find it.). It hints that the police might have been told about Amber/Amazigirl by Ryan.
Or they were just searching the room of the girl who’d just gutted the dude, to see if there was any evidence there things weren’t what they seemed.
How did we know the police searched her room again?
She talked about it to Dina right after she returned.
At this stage, I don’t think Amber or Mazie care much; there has already been too many negative consequences building up and I can see her surrendering herself as a price worth paying to get Blaine and Ryan’s groupies permanently off of the streets.
But it’s not so much whether they care as what it does to the comic. How do we get out of this scenario without Amber being removed from the comic indefinitely?
No! The authorities should not get involved because dialling 9-1-1 would kill Tinkerbell!
The main cast should keep this all secret because Joyce deciding not to report being roofied and attacked by Ryan worked so bloody well!
It went pretty poorly, yeah, but reporting also would have carried its share of risks. They would have been different, but possibly more predictable. Ultimately, that was a very different situation.
I never thought I would being hoping so badly for Toedad to be okay.
Likewise.
Yeah. Not because of any positive feelings I have towards Ross himself, but because of the absolute disaster his death would likely be for Becky and Amber’s mental health.
Same.
This is unrelated to this strip specifically, but I would like to take this opportunity to announce that I recently discovered the Heroic Comedic Sociopath trope on you-know-where, which fits Mike to a T. Has this ever been discussed in ye olde comments section before?
Yeah, and he’s really bad at it.
It is ok. He isn’t dead. He is just probably brain damaged (more than he was).
“He’s not dead, he’s resting!”
When all you have is a hammer, all the world looks like a toe-nail.
He’s been stubbed
Joyce, you and your group made a rookie mistake: you took your sight away from the body.
Ok, I see now, when Joyce fished her dead toenail out of her sock it was dramatic foreshadowing for Toedad’s dead body getting fished out of the basement. Oh yeah. It’s all coming together.
And maybe Joyce crushing her toe in the first place foreshadowed Toedad getting clobbered?
I wonder if Willis got the idea while drawing that incident… The pieces fit together almost too well.
If these are both true, i uh… Might need to go lay down… just, what…
It’s probably true though….
Sooner or later, Becky is going to know. I’m not sure how she’ll feel.
I’m wondering if this is gonna lead into a funeral arc where Carol basically tells Becky that she killed her father.
That’s the most Carol thing that could happen, and it would almost certainly lead to Hank separating from her for a while.
Yeah; yeah I’m afraid that Blaine has made his last and probably his fatal mistake.
SARAH: “Can he even breathe?”
DINA: “Dunno… Do you care?”
Do we know that Becky is actually on her way, though? She could have just gotten the address for her dad and used it to call the police
Even if that’s what she did, the others don’t know that – and they can’t operate based off of what they don’t know.
This! I went here to seeif someone said this! And Daniel, it’s a possibility they should consider. Sarah would not want to be found with a bat in this situation and AG would also likely make herself scarce. No-one is thinking it yet but it may be happening.
He got… -sunglasses- Toe-talled
After all the toe-deads, toe-talled is a refreshing take!
I really tried my best
…maybe not dead?
I kinda wish he is.
No, not because I want fictional people I dislike to die badly, I still think that’s weird, I just think that if he survives he will be suffering from horrible mental problems for the rest of his life, likely impeded motor functions, too. AND someone would have to see him in that state every day as they help him function.
That someone would likely be Becky.
So you know.
Fuck that.
Probably not Becky, he would still have committed many crimes. He would absolutely be in prison or a care facility he isn’t allowed to leave and probably wouldn’t be able to leave if such a thing happened.
No-one is concentrating on the real tragedy except the alt-text and Walky. No Disney+ people!
Mr. MacIntyre is in the Bad Place now
So that’s who Willis was breaking his rules for.
You’re all missing a very important point here which is that if ToeDad is dead, it’s highly likely that Mike is not and will survive the story. Yes, it’s possible Willis could’ve broken his rules multiple times but that doesn’t match how everyone is quoting him.
And I will NEVER dismiss the fact that the strip where we learned Mike was comatose was published ON APRIL FOOL’S DAY. Willis doesn’t do stuff like that on accident.
If there’s one more thing that Amber’s mental state really needs right now, it is to learn that her father just killed her friend’s father. That certainly won’t mess her up any more, nosiree
He’s there
And there
And there
Oh, and here too
im howling at the dot eyes sorry
Amber crashing so hard
Anyway, call a bloody ambulance, and the cops, already.
No! Tinkerbell will die!
The dialogue in this strip makes a lot more sense now that the bottom quarter of the image is loading.
So, about the timing.
What are the chances that Becky has been doing something sensible in the time It took Ambazi-Girl to go from her place to the dorm, collect stuff, change clothes, and then go to the secondary location?
Triangle inequality!
Poor Becky.
Amazi-ber stole Ruth’s “uh-oh” beady eyes… That can’t be good!
Last panel is, to me, setting it up that Amberzi-girl thinks _she_ killed Ross but doesn’t remember it because of some kind of lingering Amazi-fugue. Someone who saw what happened needs to set her straight on that (this probably will not happen), right now, before Becky gets there.
Amber will blame herself for not stopping her dad sooner. For talking to Ruth for a minute. Because Amber blames herself for most things, especially those she doesn’t control.
Damn. Didn’t Becky find her mother’s body, too?
Becky did find Bonnie after the attempt, yes.
That said, the warning (back when said strip had a content warning header beforehand, it appears to have been removed since) specified ‘attempt’, which has always been… ambiguous, to me, but I think the suggestion is that she survived temporarily, regained consciousness, but had done such severe damage to her system she couldn’t recover (hence the cancer cover) and died within a few months at most.
So, not quite her dead body but unconscious after an attempt that did eventually kill her, is my guess, and that’s… not markedly better.
“Wait, Joyce, whose blood is all over my..”?
Nemesis. AG was going to say “nemesis”.
That is my headcanon, and I’m sticking with it.
The only concern is Blaine might break through this and come back in Hulk mode. Sarah should hit his head with a bat until he’s temporarily unconscious.
Oh hey, when I was checking this my calendar reminded me that we’re at the point where the buffer ended when Willis tweeted about doing some EXCEPTIONALLY painful comics. (Thank you, forethought to set up that reminder a few months back!)
So yeah, something between now and the storyline ending at the end of June will be horrible, and it is entirely possible that’s in this next week or two. That’s gonna be a thing.
“I’m totally fine, and I’ve decided not to be a terrible person any more!” Cried Ross McIntyre (alive) from the next room. “Sorry about all the rows of ketchup bottles I had to hide behind before Blaine would stop swinging his hammer in a way that didn’t connect and did no damage other than the aforementioned ketchup. Which was expired.”
Phew, gang! We got through this story without any character deaths. What a relief!
…Except for Mike. Mike is obviously mega dead.
. . .
He is survived by your mom and a nickel.
(I don’t actually think this is what happened, I just couldn’t resist, to be clear.)
Sooooo, Walky is there to inspire, quip, and keep spirits high?
Give him a lute. He’s a bard.
AG can ask Imaginary Mike if he’s seen Imaginary Toedad around.
Fuck. Fuck.
Blaine is going to try to framejob Amazigirl for Ross’ murder, isn’t he?
Fuck.
He’d find it hard in the real world, because Dorothy, Joyce, Ethan, Sarah, Walky, and Dina were all witnesses to Blaine hitting Ross in the head with a hammer twice, and that Blaine and Ross were fighting when they left the basement.
But in the Dumbiverse that will reduce to a he-said-she-said after the police are done executing all the Black, Chinese, Jewish, LGBT, and atheist people who fall into their hands.
Given that it was already established that some of the cops were potentially on the take, it
A) actually wouldn’t be THAT hard
B) Do you actually like this comic? ‘Cause. It’s not.. anywhere near that heavyhanded?
Eh I retract B) I think I misread the tone of your post. (It is early and I, for some reason, was getting a weird vibe/reading into a tone that probably wasn’t there, I think.)
Toedad after being beaten to death wondering when heaven got a lake of fire
Ohh it’s an Airbnb.