This comic is about a robot powered by bees, but it's also about the kind of people who think filling a robot with bees is a good idea, and why they're wrong.
Countdown to Countdown
Velinxi
Iris Black is a self-proclaimed inventor with the curious ability to bring his drawings to life, and yearns to find a space where he can use his powers freely.
Blindsprings
Kadi Fedoruk
Tamaura, wrested into a world 300 years in the future, must find a way to save the magic fading from her country.
Mac Hall
Matt Boyd
The legendary early-aughts webcomic that inspired a wave of webcomic creators.
Namesake
Isa, Meg
There's ghosts at your heels and fairy tale worlds ahead. What do you do? Jump down the rabbit hole!
Dumbing of Age
David M Willis
Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
Paint the Town Red
Windy, Winter Jay Kiakas
Winona runs a werewolf shelter with partner in crime, Odile in the Gothic city of Merlot. One day they take in an injured vampire, and soon unravels many of the dark secrets of Merlot.
Cyanide & Happiness
Explosm
Satire, dark humor and surreal humor.
Fantomestein
Beka Duke
Desperate for companionship, Frankenstein's Monster pretends to be the Opera Ghost. A grave mistake.
2 Slices
RJ Morel
After a case of mistaken identity, will awkward Daisuke find help from excitable Mamo, or will his love life be thrown completely off track?
Slightly Damned
Chu
Rhea Snaketail returns from the dead, befriending a Demon who falls in love with an Angel. The afterlife ain't what it used to be!
The Otherknown
Lorian Merriman
Chandra is a 12-year-old accidental time traveler with a reluctant new dad, who happens to be a member of a feared galactic crime syndicate.
Guilded Age
T Campbell, John Waltrip, Florence Machina
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1) Joyce would refuse to use that term and call it “BJ Cat” or “Rude thing I swear I don’t know about, not even from Amber’s SupermanXBatman fics Cat”. Or…
B) She genuinely doesn’t know the term (remember, Tummy Wand wasn’t that long ago), so she casually throws it around with no idea what she’s saying.
She comes from a part of the world and the kind of family who probably would have bought things in bulk from BJ’s club, lol. Perhaps she thinks it’s a corporate marketing cat installed by the business majors.
It’s from Carla earlier. She can turn anyone’s shoes into Heelies just with her presence.
(Obviously full skates are better, but Carla can only work so much magic in a couple brief run-ins. It takes at least five minutes for them to morph into actual roller skates.)
Joyce has been in Early Access for a while now, but the bugs are slowly being ironed out, and new features like “tolerance” and “critical thinking” are in open beta.
Me too. Although it is one of the things in my “well f**k” folder; anything that, in retrospect, was a huge mile high neon sign that maybe, just maybe, my gender id didn’t match my assigned at birth.
Somebody needs to link her to that Eddie Izzard interview. “They’re not women’s dresses, they’re my dresses. I buy them. When a woman wears trousers, you don’t say she’s wearing men’s trousers.”
Less common nowadays and there are now both men’s and women’s trousers, but back when women were first challenging the social mores that didn’t allow them to wear trousers, it very definitely was seen as women wearing men’s trousers.
And as completely scandalous.
For us, Power shifting means you can just slap the Stick -without the clutch- when shifting. That works .IF. the ratios are correct, you won’t ‘grind’ when power shifting without using the clutch. If you power shift when the ratios are Not correct, that means you Will grind the gears (possibly breaking teeth), and it Can lead to $$$€€££¥¥, or others.
Im so glad that she has learned. Also, cant wait to see how this tour goes. She will probably tell everybody what the pronouns are just so everybody gets it right lol.
She remembered with Dorothy! And has been better about it with Sal. She’s shifted from “no boundaries ever” to “no boundaries unless specifically demanded”, which, y’know, progress.
Pointing out the problems with sanserif fonts, I wasn’t able to differentiate between AI apps and Al apps, and why anyone would want an Al app I have no idea, but…
honestly, joyce reacts so much better than like, majority of cis people out there (even queer cis people) who are ignorant about gender. a few of their responses from my experience are usually just pretending not to hear about their preferred pronouns, or subtly glaring at the gnc person…so this growth is really heartening to see.
Yes, I absolutely love that about her. Over and over again, her humanity is pitted against her upbringing. Sometimes she takes a little while to figure it out, but she always chooses compassion over her biases.
We know that Carla is placed in the girl’s dorm, because her gender is female.
And Booster is in the guy’s dorm because their gender is neutral and their sex is (I’m assuming) male.
So, I’m guessing gender takes precedence and if null, then sex.
So what would a non-binary intersex student be assigned? Would they be allowed to choose?
I’m assuming–or at least I’d hope–that there are no hard-and-fast rules about non-gender-conforming students dorming anywhere in particular and it’s all down to personal preference. We don’t even know Booster’s got a penis, they mighta just felt more comfortable in the boy’s dorm, or not had a preference one way or another. In any case, I’d prefer not to speculate on Booster’s junk one way or another. As with any trans people irl, it’s none of our business.
This is excellent, and I’ll add that nonbinary people aren’t all “neutral”! I’m given to understand it’s one of those whacky spectrum things. It’s a lot more complicated than “in the middle” or “neither”.
(I was a trans girl who got placed with an nb transmasc guy, though we did admittedly request it due to shenanigans. Generally speaking, it’s something the student is consulted over.)
(Also, I kinda think it’s a shame we’ve so willingly ceded the “sex vs. gender” shorthand for these discussions, since I don’t consider myself to have a “male sex” or anything of the sort, but I guess we gave up that fight so cis people can have easier conversations about us.)
Pardon, but I’ve never heard the arguments for abandoning terms for the most common body configurations for people to be born with. I’ve heard arguments that terms should be changed so they aren’t some of the same ones we use for gender, and I’ve heard arguments that knowing what sex or body type you were born with is useful for predicting health outcomes, but I’m not sure I know the thoughts and arguments attached to what you’ve said in that last paragraph?
If you have the time and energy I’d appreciate hearing about what you’re referencing when you talk about fights over the sex/gender shorthand–what the issues are surrounding it and what solutions have been proposed and all that.
The sex-vs-gender thing is, to my mind, mostly just a smokescreen so that cis people can determine we’re in some way ineffably male or female while also allowing us the pleasant delusion that we’re being respected. How often in day to day conversations do we need to talk about our health outcomes? Is this a common topic of conversation? Are the overwhelming majority of people doctors?
Having sex as a label makes about as much sense as being labeled for having inflamed lymph nodes or a broken arm or an allergy to peanuts. If doctors need to know these things, they can look at a chart. If they need to write papers about things, they can just talk about penises or vaginas or chromosomes without bringing “this person has male sex” into it. It doesn’t need to be something that’s pinned to us.
(I’m also unconvinced that genitals or testosterone or estrogen or whatever is such a huge predictor of health outcomes–independent of the way society puts people of certain genders in certain positions, or the way doctors are shit at treating cis women and trans people at large. Why not label us by how high our blood pressure is, or family history of chronic illness?)
And if non-doctor cis people want to know what we thought we were or considered ourselves before we transitioned? In nine out of ten cases it’s none of their dang business. I don’t need that informing how they see me–assuming it doesn’t already given how shit I am at passing.
Anyway yeah. Hope this helped. And if it seems grumpy in tone, know that’s not directed at you, just the whole general kinda everything.
Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. When put that way it seems very obvious that if doctors need to screen for things that only are issues if you have certain organs they can just… ask what organs you have. I agree its pretty much irrelevant to the rest of us.
I would add, if you’re still watching this comments section, that I don’t think sex exists as a “flip side of the coin” to gender. I think sex is useful to talk about, to a point, but every time someone says “oh, yeah, trans/nb people are valid because gender isn’t the same as sex”, I die a little at the implication—that they think my sex is male, but hey, at least my lifestyle choice is being respecteddd.
Male, female, and sex are loose approximations based in a very simple and totally inaccurate understanding of biology. Whether you have a penis or not has an effect on your health. Whether or not you have testosterone or estrogen, and in what quantities has an effect on your health. Whether or not you menstruate does, too. Doctors and others who might have a need to know these things should ask these specific questions.
Which of two arbitrary labels you round more closely to or which was assigned to you by the doctor who helped in your birth based on a quick visual assessment has nothing to do with your health. It’s just shorthand people use under false assumptions about gender being binary and trying to figure out some way to make that work with acceptance on nonbinary people.
None of gender is binary, whether you’re talking social, physical, biological, sexual, identity, or any of the rest of it. Nor is it a simple two direction spectrum. It’s a huge mess of traits loosely related to sexual dimorphism. The sex/gender split gets closer to a good approximation than a simple male/female binary with man/woman as synonyms. It’s still only a very simple (and wrong) model for something more complicated. Simpler approximations for complicated things can be useful if they have utility, but this is not the case in gender. These only serve to help people put others in neat boxes. You would be better served by asking specific questions. For 99% of people, that pretty much means pronouns and name. Nothing else matters to you. Their private anatomy is between them and their doctors or sexual partners. The details of their identity is something personal and doesn’t need to be shared unless they want to. This is just as true of cis people as trans/nonbinary people.
Yeah, Yenklette, nonbinary means more than neutral. The symbolism of the flag is actually a great way of putting it. The colors are purple, yellow, white, and black. Purple for people who are a mix of masculine and feminine (or sometimes “in between”), yellow for people who are some other gender completely independent of the binary ideas, white for people who identify with all genders, and black for people who identify with no gender.
Plus there’s a huge number of variations. Even the idea of “neutral” doesn’t fit perfectly with any of these. Gender isn’t a drop down with a few options. It’s not a slider between masculine and feminine. It’s this huge, awesome mess made up of tons of different traits and behaviors, some of which have some loose correlation, but all of them are ultimately independent of each other.
*Metaphorical upvote*
I’ll add that IU doesn’t have gender-neutral wings at the moment, it seems – much less rooms – so nonbinary students probably do choose where they’re more comfortable. (I’d hope, at least, but I’m choosing to believe that this IU, where COVID isn’t still ravaging the population because of criminally negligent mismanagement on a national scale, does have basic awareness of and respect for nonbinary students.)
This is the same conundrum surrounding the Claire character in QC, and that artist said “It’s for her and Martin to know” and everyone else can just butt out.
That’s a good question actually. Honestly I think the idea of gender segregated dorms are a little old fashioned to begin with. Maybe same gender shared rooms but whole dorms? It doesn’t really keep the students any safer or stop intermingling of any kind. Or is it a comfort thing? I didn’t live in a dorm in college so I’m not sure on the reason. I assume they get to choose but I think some students “Like a Mary type” would find that unfair.
It’s a comfort thing, mainly. I think it makes sense, but it’s a sort of lazy compromise, like any system based on cohabitation-with-strangers. Nonbinary students are usually allowed to say if they prefer a particular gender or genders to live with, and that’s as far as it goes—my college did not ask for a “which assigned-at-birth gender do you prefer” or anything of the sort.
I remember the IU student around 2002 having an article breathless about some schools having *mixed floors*. It also taught me that IIRC Berkeley has separate dorms, not just separate floors, which surprised me.
I went to Caltech which went almost instantly from “no women” to “mixed dorm rooms if you both want” in the early 1970s. And has mixed bathrooms.
A lot of dorms nowadays are like that! Two rooms that share a bathroom, same gender for one dorm “unit”, but the whole floor/wing is mixed gender. I think they’ll even let the rooms themselves be mixed gender if everyone in the rooms agree to it, but that’s usually special occasions (like relatives, or if the students are trans or intersex).
The other most common dorm type is the “apartment style” dorms in which people get their own rooms but share a living room and kitchen, like an apartment, obv. Those usually have like 4 people.
Honestly, the style of dorm in this comic is actually pretty uncommon nowadays, its usually only ever on some older campuses.
Just from what I remember offhand, my college’s dorm buildings were built in various stages, including:
– The mid-2000s or thereabouts (they were new but not brand new when I got assigned there in 2012,)
– The 1960s,
– And sometime around the 1900s or so, I think? But filling a footprint spacewise of the original dorm halls from when the college was built, in the 1790s or so, which had burned down sometime in the 19th century. (One of the class halls was definitely over a hundred years old and still in use.)
… I’ll note here that needless to say, my college is extremely old by US standards, and pretty small. But dorms still being in commission that were built in the 50s and 60s, even at a Big Ten school like IU? That I totally buy. Retiring old dorms is a pretty involved and expensive process to begin with, and you have to do so while ensuring you don’t need those rooms for students. Probably not a ton of them left on any given campus, but definitely some.
From helping fight my college on their refusal to let a trans friend transfer to the girls’ floor, I’m pretty sure the college will stick with whatever marker is on Booster’s birth certificate, M or F. Few states allow a third option, and my understanding is the ones that do only offer it as opt-in (i.e., no X-gender babies), so I think this would be the case for an intersex student, as well.
As far as a student who actually has changed their legal marker to a third option…hmmmm. idk what would happen there!
Yeah, my thing was a best-case-scenario. It’s far more likely that IU gives zero shits–but I’d still prefer we not use that as grounds to speculate on what Booster’s got in their pants.
It’s hopefully up to the student. The instant nonbinary people and intersex people aren’t ignored, trying to neatly fit people into two neat categories based on some objective system goes out the window fast. The comfort of the student is the most important thing.
He was, last time we checked in on him, anyway. (Which seems to be a bit over a month after he actually began transitioning, based on when he started using the men’s showers.) He might have moved to the male wing (or floor, or however Forest Quad divides the genders) during the timeskip.
Yeah, it’s a pretty safe assumption he was assigned there when he still publicly identified as a woman. Who knows if the powers that be at the university have even been informed.
Might, but there’s as yet no evidence for it. He’s a fairly minor character and we don’t know much of his struggle.
For all we know, he moved during the timeskip or the semester break. Or he still hasn’t let IU know. (The RA likely knows, but might well not report it if he requested it.) If he didn’t come out until going to college, it’s possible his parents don’t know/approve and moving to a guys floor would out him to them.
Any number of scenarios and we’ve got a couple of lines to work with.
Yeah, Spencer seems pretty reasonable from her few appearances, so I could see Zaph saying ‘hey can you let the hall know I use these pronouns and this name without alerting your boss? I’m not ready to have That Talk with my parents yet.*’ And given Zaph and Rose mention he’s only showered on that side a couple times when it comes up, I could very well see him not knowing (or not being willing to come out) when the school year started, anyway, and only moving over break. Since we haven’t seen him yet this semester, who knows?
* Or whatever, plenty of reasons you’d be comfortable being out socially but not yet letting admin know.
im assuming finding a safe place with a roommate who was comfortable would dictate their final does. guy or girl, whatever has least chance of hate crimes and law suits.
Yeah, it’s wonderful. Just this perfect transition from “oh, Walky’s helping, and this is going okay” to “Wait what, why did she just roll for initiative and make a grapple check??”
i was wondering why this wasn’t covered in Leslie’s gender studies class, but then i remembered that a student died and 50% of the class went through an extremely traumatic experience
So there’s a thing in minority politics called “visibility”, which is how much your average member of the kykriarchy (Ctrl+F my comments on that from yesterday’s comments) knows a demographic exists. Having visibility comes with some advantages–it means kykriarchal folks have at least a starting point when understanding your plight, and it means corporations are aware enough of you to prioritize giving you representation when the mood strikes them. But the flipside of that is visible minorities tend to be the ones who face heavy legislation against their rights and existence, since the folks who want to maintain the kyrkiarchy knows they exist. (You might remember a slightly more abstract version of this discussion from an episode of Master of None, in which it’s pointed out there’s no Indian equivalent of Oprah Winfrey or Ellen DeGeneres, for instance.)
Nonbinary folks have very low visibility, even among other queer people. This is starting to change, especially with a recent spirt of recently-out nonbinary people working on queer children’s cartoons in the past coupla years. But when the comic started in 2010, damn near no one knew nonbinary folks existed, even me, and I turned out to be one! Hell, even trans issues were just on the cusp of publicly discussed queer issues–you might remember Malaya and Carla don’t turn up until 2014. There were no trans characters in Dumbing of Age before that.
Leslie is canonically 26 years old. That’s how old I am. Realistically, a 26-year-old queer person and gender studies professor–especially one who watches Steven Universe–should know what a nonbinary person is in 2020. But in 2017? 2015? It’s one of the perils of the sliding timescale, and god willing, by the time we hit 2030, the idea that Joyce didn’t learn about this from Leslie will be completely implausible. Or we’ll all be dead. Either way.
Joyce was out sick for a few days during the time skip when that was covered.
“Why didn’t she borrow Dorothy’s notes?”
Uh, we know Dorothy was also going through stuff at that time. Maybe Dorothy already knew about non-binary people and didn’t bother including it in her notes.
Not to nitpick, but Jocelyne showed up in 2013, so there was some trans representation even before Carla.
Otherwise yeah. There’s also the tension between “She probably should have learned about this in class” and dramatically better to get her reactions in a real interaction with an actual character, which can be partly justified as a difference between the abstract concept and dealing with the reality.
Sadly, may still not be a guarantee. Most of my Gender Studies 101 class was focused around issues of misogyny, with most intersectionality focused on race and class. Heterosexism and cissexism were not really discussed in depth, never mind going into the nuances of different sexualities or genders. Leslie’s class seems pretty activity/discussion based so non binary or trans people being brought up may not have been a thing.
They were going to get into nonbinary and trans people, but that was the day after Robin dropped out of the race and like three people in the class had been kidnapped and everyone was really distracted, and it took several class sessions to get back on the rails after the first Robinpocalypse ANYWAY, and so basically they managed a cursory look at the subject of gender as a social construct but the mayhem of the first half of the semester kind of screwed up their syllabus.
Never taken a class on gender or sexuality… how much material would a basic class have to cover?
Maybe there is so much discussion about topics like homosexuality, cultural/political impact of sexism, etc. that it just wouldn’t have time to cover transexuals until a follow up course? (just a guess.)
(Not to belittle anyone who is transexual.. But if you have a year’s worth of course material and only a half year to cover it, something might get left out, and not everyone will be happy as a result.)
An average class-especially a 101 class- would have at least a brief discussion about issues that effect Trans people. 101 classes usually cover a large swath of issues very briefly.
Also, it was pretty clear already, but glad to have it actually confirmed that yes, introductions are things that can happen between panels so that we only need to see Booster bring up that they use they/them pronouns when it’s relevant to something, like Joyce’s character development.
Why can’t more people do this? I mean, it can certainly be wordsmithed to be more polite, but soooooooo many problems would be solved by “I don’t understand, but I’ll trust that you’re sincere and take it to heart and expect myself to learn on my own time.” Instead of demanding that people educate you, justify their existence, defend against arguments why they’re wrong, etc.
It’s so simple, yet so many people just don’t get it… Thank you, Joyce for handling this about as well as your upbringing allows. And while I would recommend anyone avoid this brand of hyper aggressive friendliness IRL (maybe ask before sweeping them off on a tour?), it’s fun in a web comic, so I’ll be perfectly happy with a Joyce who continues to do this kind of thing.
Honestly, I’m really glad I first learned about most of this stuff online and not in person like this, cause I’m not sure I’d be able to stop myself from wanting to ask a million questions and understand everything immediately. I’d like to think I’d be at least somewhat polite about it, though, or at least as polite as you could be about asking someone to explain their existence for probably the thousandth time.
Why can’t more people do this: because if you (general you) hear someone say something you had never heard of before, your natural first reaction is: what’s that? tell me more about that! Whether it’s their holiday in a country you’re unfamiliar with, or an activity you’ve vaguely heard of but don’t know more about, or a book you haven’t read yet, or something else. And usually, that is a good way to have a nice interaction, because you show an interest in the person and give them an opportunity to talk about something that is relevant to them.
Also, things you’re unfamiliar with are more interesting when they are attached to someone you meet in real life. There are plenty of religions I’ve never heard of, but I do know of the Druze, because I once met a Druze who explained to me that his religion & his people exist.
Of course people who have something (pronouns, countries, hobbies) explained to them should at the very least have a neutral reaction and not a hostile one. And I sympathise, it does get really old to explain pronouns to people if you’re a person with pronouns that are not immediately obvious. But I understand why people do it.
It does depend on context, though. If you mention a medical condition, people may be curious, but most aren’t going to expect you to explain everything to them on the spot.
To be honest, though, my “why?” was more rhetorical. I do understand that people are curious by nature and society doesn’t teach people courtesy related to pronouns and gender. And the reason why that’s the case is that we’re still in early days of this info proliferating in the first place.
Understanding it doesn’t mean I’m happy with it, though.
Society does teach courtesy related to pronouns and gender. In fact it teaches pretty strict rules on pronouns and gender. If anyone accidently misgenders a cisperson because they misread the normal social cues, they’ll be embarrassed and apologize (or occasionally go over the top and blame it on the target for misleading cues like long hair on a guy.)
It’s just that we’re changing those norms on the fly and it’s hard to keep up – if you’ve learned the old rules and aren’t up with the subcultures that are actively changing them.
So it seems like you’re the one following the rules and the trans or nb people are the ones breaking them. That puts them in the wrong, since they’re violating the social rules, but calling you out for doing so. Or so it seems to those still stuck with the rules they learned as kids.
I love panel 2 because you can really see the cogwheels spinning in Joyce’s head. She’s realised that she’s said or done something offensive (again) and she still doesn’t understand what or why.
As always, her solution is to turn up her sunshine to ’11’ and declare herself Booster’s #1 friend in the world!
I love the expression on Booster’s face: “Ohmigodwhatisthis?” They’re being kidnapped but is it for a nefarious purpose? Should they even be afraid as Joyce seems about as harmless as s Care Bear?
It’s GREAT, all of it. And Booster being so totally bowled over by the force of Joyce’s caring because Walky did not warn them about THIS. (In fairness, one cannot adequately warn about the Triangle Smile of Very Friendly Doom. Words cannot convey its true nature.)
Joyce’s response, as graded by me, the last person who should be grading anything about this.
Panel 3: I’m…. not sure about sharing that you have questions and concerns. On the one hand, openly acknowledging that you have hangups and points of ignorance and that it’s your problem, not theirs, can be a good thing. On the other hand, concern trolling. The line between the two can get fuzzy, and while I don’t think Joyce is crossing it here, even getting close to that line can make potential targets feel unsafe. I’ll… give it a B+, and could maybe be talked up to an A-. Good, but room for improvement.
Panel 4: Points for shifting off the topic (because who wants to talk about nothing but their own gender for the whole day) and addressing Booster directly as a person to interact with. It doesn’t erase yesterday’s ugliness, but it corrects course, at least. BUT… major points lost for violating Booster’s personal space, grabbing them without permission, and saying that you WILL introduce Booster around rather than asking Booster if THEY’D like you to introduce them around. Mmmm…. I’ll rank this as a C+, but I could easily get argued down into the D range.
Panel 5: And off Joyce goes without giving Booster any say in this at all. Booster is CLEARLY NOT OKAY WITH THIS. I’m torn over whether Booster’s face says “oh crap what have I gotten into”, which might be amusing, or if it says “I Feel Very Unsafe With This Person Who My Roommate Is Visibly Transporting Me Against My Will”, which would be… unamusing. I’m giving it a D, at best. Her positive energy, enthusiasm, and good intentions are all that saves this from being an F, and I’m not sure it SHOULD save her from getting an F.
Overall… Bad start yesterday, good recovery, then things get worse again. C- overall.
I was going to make the point that Booster’s only point of contact around here is Walky (and thus Booster might have been regarding Walky as a bit of a psychological anchor, a phrase that I never thought I could apply to a Walky). Now Booster is not only getting dragged away from that anchor, but the anchor seems to be letting it happen.
But then I decided the thought-process quote was too wordy, cut that point, swapped in the old Jason reference, and screwed up the edit.
NO! BAD JOYCE! You do not put your hands on somebody else without their permission, and you ESPECIALLY do not manhandle them in a direction without their agreement!
She handled that better than I expected. She’s doing so good. It takes a lot of strength to admit that you don’t understand something but make an effort anyway.
I’m just not equipped for this life anymore. I don’t understand people. Booster seems bothered that their first impression led to confusion for Joyce. Booster seemed pretty comfortable in their skin at first blush, but this has to be a common reaction, no? “Hi Joyce, yeah, I have a different look. I like it.”
Uh? Booster’s horrified expression in Panel 4 seems to be about sudden invasion of personal space. There’s no confusion, Joyce’s holding them first by their arms, then by their shoulders (and pushing strong enough to move a person taller than her).
Also, doesn’t matter how comfortable one is in their own skin. It gets kinda annoying having to be the human Wikipedia article on non-binary people every time you meet someone who’s never met an out nonbinary person before. Even if they’re being respectful about it, it’s still annoying.
On top of that, Booster was just told seconds ago that Joyce used to be a fundamentalist Christian. They’re anticipating the worst.
ok, so I’m looking at the groupshot title thing. I think, and this is totally my own headspace; but Joe is amused(?) watching Booster who is looking at Danny who is entirely too flustered by the situation. Did I miss someone else mentioning this already?
TBH, I feel like more people with backgrounds similar to Joyce’s should react more like Joyce did here in the third panel – even if they don’t say it out loud, but just in their own heads. Actually, for everyone, even outside of the context of non-binary – for responses to things about race, religion, sexual preference, identity, anything you encounter and feel is outside your bailiwick and is making you feel uncomfortable, this reaction needs to be more of a Thing.
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Wow the comic’s up a bit earlier than usual today.
…first?
Nothing by halves.
Don’t respond to “first”s, it’ll only encourage them
I think that managing to post before Ana Chronistic will be rare enough that we wont see any more “First” during 2020
I should add: I’m impressed by that punctuality.
I’m prob “late” today bc I showed up at 10 on Tuesday and was confused why it wasn’t updating until I realised I can’t tell time
Averages out, I guess?
Someone noted server time skew a while back. Apparently it’s getting more pronoun-ced.
Synced to cell tower and the NRC I saw this page first load (with your comment) at 11:58. This implies around a four minute drift of the server clock.
Bye Booster! We barely knew thee!~
A moment of silence….
F
Booster: “I am not dead yet!”
Sometimes I can still hear their voice
“You’re right, the server clock is about four minutes fast.”
By my measurement, 6 minutes and 22 seconds
With Joyce around? Unlikely.
Eep
Joyce has become self-aware!
…I mean, she doesn’t know she’s a character in a comic yet, but at this rate can that be far behind? Humanity is doomed.
ok this might be worse
I mean, cool on learning from her mistakes, but Joyce tours?
“And HERE’S Blowjob cat!”
I see two possibilities:
1) Joyce would refuse to use that term and call it “BJ Cat” or “Rude thing I swear I don’t know about, not even from Amber’s SupermanXBatman fics Cat”. Or…
B) She genuinely doesn’t know the term (remember, Tummy Wand wasn’t that long ago), so she casually throws it around with no idea what she’s saying.
Both options have humorous possibilities.
Consider Ⅲ. She knows the term, but refuses to say it louder than a whisper.
Or option 4. Booster goes “Oooooh, that’s blowjob cat”, after Joyce specifically fails to mention it.
It’s kinda adorable how y’all have forgotten that Booster isn’t new in town. They’re just new to the cast.
I mean this doesnt change Joyce’s BJ cat options at all.
She comes from a part of the world and the kind of family who probably would have bought things in bulk from BJ’s club, lol. Perhaps she thinks it’s a corporate marketing cat installed by the business majors.
I will say that from a newcomer perspective, overly-cheery boundry-violating Joyce is slightly more tolerable than recovering-bigot Joyce.
I mean, it wasn’t the smoothest save ever, but it’s not half as cringey as what I was expecting.
Yeah, her first time meeting a mormon was way worse.
Wait, when was that?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/mormon/
With Agatha the cutie pie.
Nothing about this response is what Booster was expecting.
They didn’t know their heels could do that, for starters
It’s from Carla earlier. She can turn anyone’s shoes into Heelies just with her presence.
(Obviously full skates are better, but Carla can only work so much magic in a couple brief run-ins. It takes at least five minutes for them to morph into actual roller skates.)
The floor is greased for just such an occasion
Not as bas as it could’ve been.
The kid is okay, Booster, we swear. Most of the time.
Joyce has been in Early Access for a while now, but the bugs are slowly being ironed out, and new features like “tolerance” and “critical thinking” are in open beta.
The official release now includes atheism, acceptance of evolution and voting for progressive policies.
You know you’re close to the final version when they get around to making it ok for different foods to touch.
That’s a bug, not a feature.
Y’know Joyce, even if Booster was male, your ‘does your roomie know he looks like a man who’s wearing lady makeup’ is still terrible.
Maybe work on that too.
“Questions and concerns”.
Exactly. That’s part of what she’s going to research later and what she’s making up for now.
Rude, certainly.
But I think it’s a far distance from “terrible”
Hey, Joyce, let me just introduce you to the gorgeous awesomeness that was “Guys wearing eyeliner and contouring in the Eighties”.
Gods I miss that look. Soooooo awesome. <333
Me too. Although it is one of the things in my “well f**k” folder; anything that, in retrospect, was a huge mile high neon sign that maybe, just maybe, my gender id didn’t match my assigned at birth.
Somebody needs to link her to that Eddie Izzard interview. “They’re not women’s dresses, they’re my dresses. I buy them. When a woman wears trousers, you don’t say she’s wearing men’s trousers.”
People totally say women are wearing ‘men’s trousers’, but Eddie’s got the spirit.
Less common nowadays and there are now both men’s and women’s trousers, but back when women were first challenging the social mores that didn’t allow them to wear trousers, it very definitely was seen as women wearing men’s trousers.
And as completely scandalous.
No more Walky for a while! Ah I feel like I can breath!
This is honestly how I feel about Carla (andAmbersometimes)
this is how i feel about Malaya all the time, even after only seeing her for a single comic.
* breathe
Well if it’s Walky’s blunt introductions that you find irksome, Sirksome, I doubt you will find Joyce’s to be much better.
That Joyce switches gears on a dime!
Joyce speed shifts. She’ll strip her gears one of these days.
Back in the old days we called that banging the gears.
Which besides sounding and being dangerous, Sounds kinda painful.
In my region it was grinding your gears. And lord, that’s a cringy sound. D:
For us, Power shifting means you can just slap the Stick -without the clutch- when shifting. That works .IF. the ratios are correct, you won’t ‘grind’ when power shifting without using the clutch. If you power shift when the ratios are Not correct, that means you Will grind the gears (possibly breaking teeth), and it Can lead to $$$€€££¥¥, or others.
It’s easier with straight cut gears and a motorcycle.
Actually, she switches gears on a nickel.
Mike wasn’t using them, so
Joyce has 3 gears; reverse, neutral and eleven. There’s no inbetween.
Neutral is only when she’s asleep
Im so glad that she has learned. Also, cant wait to see how this tour goes. She will probably tell everybody what the pronouns are just so everybody gets it right lol.
Lol Joyce, remember you should respect personal space
She remembered with Dorothy! And has been better about it with Sal. She’s shifted from “no boundaries ever” to “no boundaries unless specifically demanded”, which, y’know, progress.
All-in-all not bad Joyce. Not bad.
clap and a nod. Good Save Joyce.
Well we learn.
Both Joyce AND Booster.
All aboard the Joyceride! Destination: EVERYWHERE
Awwww Joyce
She may be Book 11 Joyce, but she’s still Joyce
sarahpedia, your #1 source for sarcastic answers to every question
I would donate to that Kickstarter
AI aps I would like to see.
Pointing out the problems with sanserif fonts, I wasn’t able to differentiate between AI apps and Al apps, and why anyone would want an Al app I have no idea, but…
*in honor of current not-comic events, the hacked Muzak is playing “Superfly Guy” by S’Express*
“You are MY CHILD, Superfly!”
Wait, which not comic events?
This is 2020, everything is literally happening so much all of the time.
I assume it’s a reference to the fly in the Vice-Presidential debate.
Flies are very quick to detect corruption.
Joyce has improved. Now she just need to respect boundaries more.
honestly, joyce reacts so much better than like, majority of cis people out there (even queer cis people) who are ignorant about gender. a few of their responses from my experience are usually just pretending not to hear about their preferred pronouns, or subtly glaring at the gnc person…so this growth is really heartening to see.
Whatever Joyce’s other flaws, the gale force of her caring about people, even people she’s just met, should be an inspiration to us all.
This all the way into the stratosphere
I always feel, this is what defines her more and makes her one of the best characters (and humans).
Yes, I absolutely love that about her. Over and over again, her humanity is pitted against her upbringing. Sometimes she takes a little while to figure it out, but she always chooses compassion over her biases.
This actually brings up a question.
We know that Carla is placed in the girl’s dorm, because her gender is female.
And Booster is in the guy’s dorm because their gender is neutral and their sex is (I’m assuming) male.
So, I’m guessing gender takes precedence and if null, then sex.
So what would a non-binary intersex student be assigned? Would they be allowed to choose?
I’m assuming–or at least I’d hope–that there are no hard-and-fast rules about non-gender-conforming students dorming anywhere in particular and it’s all down to personal preference. We don’t even know Booster’s got a penis, they mighta just felt more comfortable in the boy’s dorm, or not had a preference one way or another. In any case, I’d prefer not to speculate on Booster’s junk one way or another. As with any trans people irl, it’s none of our business.
This is excellent, and I’ll add that nonbinary people aren’t all “neutral”! I’m given to understand it’s one of those whacky spectrum things. It’s a lot more complicated than “in the middle” or “neither”.
(I was a trans girl who got placed with an nb transmasc guy, though we did admittedly request it due to shenanigans. Generally speaking, it’s something the student is consulted over.)
(Also, I kinda think it’s a shame we’ve so willingly ceded the “sex vs. gender” shorthand for these discussions, since I don’t consider myself to have a “male sex” or anything of the sort, but I guess we gave up that fight so cis people can have easier conversations about us.)
Pardon, but I’ve never heard the arguments for abandoning terms for the most common body configurations for people to be born with. I’ve heard arguments that terms should be changed so they aren’t some of the same ones we use for gender, and I’ve heard arguments that knowing what sex or body type you were born with is useful for predicting health outcomes, but I’m not sure I know the thoughts and arguments attached to what you’ve said in that last paragraph?
If you have the time and energy I’d appreciate hearing about what you’re referencing when you talk about fights over the sex/gender shorthand–what the issues are surrounding it and what solutions have been proposed and all that.
The sex-vs-gender thing is, to my mind, mostly just a smokescreen so that cis people can determine we’re in some way ineffably male or female while also allowing us the pleasant delusion that we’re being respected. How often in day to day conversations do we need to talk about our health outcomes? Is this a common topic of conversation? Are the overwhelming majority of people doctors?
Having sex as a label makes about as much sense as being labeled for having inflamed lymph nodes or a broken arm or an allergy to peanuts. If doctors need to know these things, they can look at a chart. If they need to write papers about things, they can just talk about penises or vaginas or chromosomes without bringing “this person has male sex” into it. It doesn’t need to be something that’s pinned to us.
(I’m also unconvinced that genitals or testosterone or estrogen or whatever is such a huge predictor of health outcomes–independent of the way society puts people of certain genders in certain positions, or the way doctors are shit at treating cis women and trans people at large. Why not label us by how high our blood pressure is, or family history of chronic illness?)
And if non-doctor cis people want to know what we thought we were or considered ourselves before we transitioned? In nine out of ten cases it’s none of their dang business. I don’t need that informing how they see me–assuming it doesn’t already given how shit I am at passing.
Anyway yeah. Hope this helped. And if it seems grumpy in tone, know that’s not directed at you, just the whole general kinda everything.
Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. When put that way it seems very obvious that if doctors need to screen for things that only are issues if you have certain organs they can just… ask what organs you have. I agree its pretty much irrelevant to the rest of us.
Thank you for explaining!
I would add, if you’re still watching this comments section, that I don’t think sex exists as a “flip side of the coin” to gender. I think sex is useful to talk about, to a point, but every time someone says “oh, yeah, trans/nb people are valid because gender isn’t the same as sex”, I die a little at the implication—that they think my sex is male, but hey, at least my lifestyle choice is being respecteddd.
Male, female, and sex are loose approximations based in a very simple and totally inaccurate understanding of biology. Whether you have a penis or not has an effect on your health. Whether or not you have testosterone or estrogen, and in what quantities has an effect on your health. Whether or not you menstruate does, too. Doctors and others who might have a need to know these things should ask these specific questions.
Which of two arbitrary labels you round more closely to or which was assigned to you by the doctor who helped in your birth based on a quick visual assessment has nothing to do with your health. It’s just shorthand people use under false assumptions about gender being binary and trying to figure out some way to make that work with acceptance on nonbinary people.
None of gender is binary, whether you’re talking social, physical, biological, sexual, identity, or any of the rest of it. Nor is it a simple two direction spectrum. It’s a huge mess of traits loosely related to sexual dimorphism. The sex/gender split gets closer to a good approximation than a simple male/female binary with man/woman as synonyms. It’s still only a very simple (and wrong) model for something more complicated. Simpler approximations for complicated things can be useful if they have utility, but this is not the case in gender. These only serve to help people put others in neat boxes. You would be better served by asking specific questions. For 99% of people, that pretty much means pronouns and name. Nothing else matters to you. Their private anatomy is between them and their doctors or sexual partners. The details of their identity is something personal and doesn’t need to be shared unless they want to. This is just as true of cis people as trans/nonbinary people.
Yeah, Yenklette, nonbinary means more than neutral. The symbolism of the flag is actually a great way of putting it. The colors are purple, yellow, white, and black. Purple for people who are a mix of masculine and feminine (or sometimes “in between”), yellow for people who are some other gender completely independent of the binary ideas, white for people who identify with all genders, and black for people who identify with no gender.
Plus there’s a huge number of variations. Even the idea of “neutral” doesn’t fit perfectly with any of these. Gender isn’t a drop down with a few options. It’s not a slider between masculine and feminine. It’s this huge, awesome mess made up of tons of different traits and behaviors, some of which have some loose correlation, but all of them are ultimately independent of each other.
*Metaphorical upvote*
I’ll add that IU doesn’t have gender-neutral wings at the moment, it seems – much less rooms – so nonbinary students probably do choose where they’re more comfortable. (I’d hope, at least, but I’m choosing to believe that this IU, where COVID isn’t still ravaging the population because of criminally negligent mismanagement on a national scale, does have basic awareness of and respect for nonbinary students.)
This is the same conundrum surrounding the Claire character in QC, and that artist said “It’s for her and Martin to know” and everyone else can just butt out.
ClairacterThat’s a good question actually. Honestly I think the idea of gender segregated dorms are a little old fashioned to begin with. Maybe same gender shared rooms but whole dorms? It doesn’t really keep the students any safer or stop intermingling of any kind. Or is it a comfort thing? I didn’t live in a dorm in college so I’m not sure on the reason. I assume they get to choose but I think some students “Like a Mary type” would find that unfair.
It’s a comfort thing, mainly. I think it makes sense, but it’s a sort of lazy compromise, like any system based on cohabitation-with-strangers. Nonbinary students are usually allowed to say if they prefer a particular gender or genders to live with, and that’s as far as it goes—my college did not ask for a “which assigned-at-birth gender do you prefer” or anything of the sort.
I remember the IU student around 2002 having an article breathless about some schools having *mixed floors*. It also taught me that IIRC Berkeley has separate dorms, not just separate floors, which surprised me.
I went to Caltech which went almost instantly from “no women” to “mixed dorm rooms if you both want” in the early 1970s. And has mixed bathrooms.
I’d guess that a big part of the answer is simple inertia.
A lot of dorms nowadays are like that! Two rooms that share a bathroom, same gender for one dorm “unit”, but the whole floor/wing is mixed gender. I think they’ll even let the rooms themselves be mixed gender if everyone in the rooms agree to it, but that’s usually special occasions (like relatives, or if the students are trans or intersex).
The other most common dorm type is the “apartment style” dorms in which people get their own rooms but share a living room and kitchen, like an apartment, obv. Those usually have like 4 people.
Honestly, the style of dorm in this comic is actually pretty uncommon nowadays, its usually only ever on some older campuses.
Given that most campuses are older and even most dorm buildings on most campuses are older, I’d guess it’s not that uncommon.
Apartment style has to be more expensive – a lot more space per person. Even the shared half bath we see here seems weird to me.
Just from what I remember offhand, my college’s dorm buildings were built in various stages, including:
– The mid-2000s or thereabouts (they were new but not brand new when I got assigned there in 2012,)
– The 1960s,
– And sometime around the 1900s or so, I think? But filling a footprint spacewise of the original dorm halls from when the college was built, in the 1790s or so, which had burned down sometime in the 19th century. (One of the class halls was definitely over a hundred years old and still in use.)
… I’ll note here that needless to say, my college is extremely old by US standards, and pretty small. But dorms still being in commission that were built in the 50s and 60s, even at a Big Ten school like IU? That I totally buy. Retiring old dorms is a pretty involved and expensive process to begin with, and you have to do so while ensuring you don’t need those rooms for students. Probably not a ton of them left on any given campus, but definitely some.
From helping fight my college on their refusal to let a trans friend transfer to the girls’ floor, I’m pretty sure the college will stick with whatever marker is on Booster’s birth certificate, M or F. Few states allow a third option, and my understanding is the ones that do only offer it as opt-in (i.e., no X-gender babies), so I think this would be the case for an intersex student, as well.
As far as a student who actually has changed their legal marker to a third option…hmmmm. idk what would happen there!
Good point! I’m Oregon, kind of a biased perspective. Oregon has seen a lot of success from trans activists over the years.
That is awesome to hear! I’m glad somewhere has. I assume Pennsylvania is better than it used to be, but it’s far from the best.
Yeah, my thing was a best-case-scenario. It’s far more likely that IU gives zero shits–but I’d still prefer we not use that as grounds to speculate on what Booster’s got in their pants.
fwiw I loved your best-case scenario. That’s the world we should be working towards.
and yeah, other people’s genital configurations are none of our business.
If their parents have money, they might get what they want. Otherwise as far as faculty is concerned, they can go screw.
It’s hopefully up to the student. The instant nonbinary people and intersex people aren’t ignored, trying to neatly fit people into two neat categories based on some objective system goes out the window fast. The comfort of the student is the most important thing.
Zaph is still in the girl’s dorm, though, despite being a transgender man. But that could have many reasons, just pointing it out.
He was, last time we checked in on him, anyway. (Which seems to be a bit over a month after he actually began transitioning, based on when he started using the men’s showers.) He might have moved to the male wing (or floor, or however Forest Quad divides the genders) during the timeskip.
Yeah, it’s a pretty safe assumption he was assigned there when he still publicly identified as a woman. Who knows if the powers that be at the university have even been informed.
In Zaph’s situation, IU might be taking the painful “but he’s *really* a girl, we can’t have a girl in the boy’s dorm” load of bullshit.
Might, but there’s as yet no evidence for it. He’s a fairly minor character and we don’t know much of his struggle.
For all we know, he moved during the timeskip or the semester break. Or he still hasn’t let IU know. (The RA likely knows, but might well not report it if he requested it.) If he didn’t come out until going to college, it’s possible his parents don’t know/approve and moving to a guys floor would out him to them.
Any number of scenarios and we’ve got a couple of lines to work with.
Yeah, Spencer seems pretty reasonable from her few appearances, so I could see Zaph saying ‘hey can you let the hall know I use these pronouns and this name without alerting your boss? I’m not ready to have That Talk with my parents yet.*’ And given Zaph and Rose mention he’s only showered on that side a couple times when it comes up, I could very well see him not knowing (or not being willing to come out) when the school year started, anyway, and only moving over break. Since we haven’t seen him yet this semester, who knows?
* Or whatever, plenty of reasons you’d be comfortable being out socially but not yet letting admin know.
im assuming finding a safe place with a roommate who was comfortable would dictate their final does. guy or girl, whatever has least chance of hate crimes and law suits.
Well done, Joyce. LEARNING!
JOYCE IS ACTUALLY LEARNING AND I AM SO HAPPY FOR HER
…and also happy for everybody else
When Joyce decides to stop asking intrusive questions, EVERYONE WINS!
… Except Sarah. Sorry Sarah.
That… honestly sounds like every sibling relationship I’ve been told about.
And she’s adorably befuddled in panel 2. (You can almost see the hourglass cursor cycling in her head as she processes and backtracks.)
Huh, color me wrong about Walky not knowing yet.
It’s Sal that doesn’t read the new roommate paperwork.
so the last silhouettes are billy and marcies friend?
The Grim Silhouettes of Billie and Marcie
A+ reference, right there.
Welcome to the cast, Booster. It’s pretty much like this all the time.
That fourth panel face of theirs just sums it up, doesn’t it.
‘Well that went better than I expec- wait what.’
a pretty accurat first impression of Joyce.
Not sure why anymore but i always giggle when i see Joyce with a nacho smile.
Honestly every time I see it now I remember Dina’s attempt at it and lose my dang mind.
HAHAHAHA Panel four is amazing!
Also, thank you, Walky. There are many situations I find myself in where I would have been glad to have a friend who acts like you do in this strip.
Booster’s eyebrow nearly escaped their face! I love their reaction in that panel.
Yeah, it’s wonderful. Just this perfect transition from “oh, Walky’s helping, and this is going okay” to “Wait what, why did she just roll for initiative and make a grapple check??”
i was wondering why this wasn’t covered in Leslie’s gender studies class, but then i remembered that a student died and 50% of the class went through an extremely traumatic experience
*deep breath*
So there’s a thing in minority politics called “visibility”, which is how much your average member of the kykriarchy (Ctrl+F my comments on that from yesterday’s comments) knows a demographic exists. Having visibility comes with some advantages–it means kykriarchal folks have at least a starting point when understanding your plight, and it means corporations are aware enough of you to prioritize giving you representation when the mood strikes them. But the flipside of that is visible minorities tend to be the ones who face heavy legislation against their rights and existence, since the folks who want to maintain the kyrkiarchy knows they exist. (You might remember a slightly more abstract version of this discussion from an episode of Master of None, in which it’s pointed out there’s no Indian equivalent of Oprah Winfrey or Ellen DeGeneres, for instance.)
Nonbinary folks have very low visibility, even among other queer people. This is starting to change, especially with a recent spirt of recently-out nonbinary people working on queer children’s cartoons in the past coupla years. But when the comic started in 2010, damn near no one knew nonbinary folks existed, even me, and I turned out to be one! Hell, even trans issues were just on the cusp of publicly discussed queer issues–you might remember Malaya and Carla don’t turn up until 2014. There were no trans characters in Dumbing of Age before that.
Leslie is canonically 26 years old. That’s how old I am. Realistically, a 26-year-old queer person and gender studies professor–especially one who watches Steven Universe–should know what a nonbinary person is in 2020. But in 2017? 2015? It’s one of the perils of the sliding timescale, and god willing, by the time we hit 2030, the idea that Joyce didn’t learn about this from Leslie will be completely implausible. Or we’ll all be dead. Either way.
Just a quick assist for anyone trying to ctrl-f that (or google, wikipedia, or corner sarah) like I did: It’s spelled kyriarchy, not kykriarchy.
(Not attacking you for a typo, Wack’d, just trying to make it a bit easier for people to follow your advise.)
Thanks, I was wondering if this was a different term from ‘kyriarchy’ and wondering what it meant.
Oh geez. Thanks for the assist!
Joyce was out sick for a few days during the time skip when that was covered.
“Why didn’t she borrow Dorothy’s notes?”
Uh, we know Dorothy was also going through stuff at that time. Maybe Dorothy already knew about non-binary people and didn’t bother including it in her notes.
“But then…”
Shhhh… just read season two.
Not to nitpick, but Jocelyne showed up in 2013, so there was some trans representation even before Carla.
Otherwise yeah. There’s also the tension between “She probably should have learned about this in class” and dramatically better to get her reactions in a real interaction with an actual character, which can be partly justified as a difference between the abstract concept and dealing with the reality.
You’re absolutely right, thanks for the correction.
Sadly, may still not be a guarantee. Most of my Gender Studies 101 class was focused around issues of misogyny, with most intersectionality focused on race and class. Heterosexism and cissexism were not really discussed in depth, never mind going into the nuances of different sexualities or genders. Leslie’s class seems pretty activity/discussion based so non binary or trans people being brought up may not have been a thing.
They were going to get into nonbinary and trans people, but that was the day after Robin dropped out of the race and like three people in the class had been kidnapped and everyone was really distracted, and it took several class sessions to get back on the rails after the first Robinpocalypse ANYWAY, and so basically they managed a cursory look at the subject of gender as a social construct but the mayhem of the first half of the semester kind of screwed up their syllabus.
Never taken a class on gender or sexuality… how much material would a basic class have to cover?
Maybe there is so much discussion about topics like homosexuality, cultural/political impact of sexism, etc. that it just wouldn’t have time to cover transexuals until a follow up course? (just a guess.)
(Not to belittle anyone who is transexual.. But if you have a year’s worth of course material and only a half year to cover it, something might get left out, and not everyone will be happy as a result.)
An average class-especially a 101 class- would have at least a brief discussion about issues that effect Trans people. 101 classes usually cover a large swath of issues very briefly.
Also, it was pretty clear already, but glad to have it actually confirmed that yes, introductions are things that can happen between panels so that we only need to see Booster bring up that they use they/them pronouns when it’s relevant to something, like Joyce’s character development.
SHE’S LEARNING!
I like Sarah’s introduction of herself to Booster, though I’m still wondering what Walky’s introduction of her would have been.
“This is Sarah. She doesn’t like to be introduced to people.”
“This is Sarah. She’s got a bat.”
I liked that glimpse of self-aware Joyce.
I love that she’s gone so genki she’s scaring Booster.
She’s genki but is she also a yandere? They have reason to be concerned!
Wait, when was Walky told this again?
off screen
Roommate transfer paperwork may have mentioned it.
during the timeskip
Like a golden retriever puppy on a staircase, she is Doing Her Best, and will Improve.
She got the spirit ^^
Joyce could have said the third panel in her head
Someone else could have, but that someone else wouldn’t have been Joyce.
Booster’s eyes in the forth panel tho. The whole expression. Help. XD
I know. I can’t decide whether it’s amusing or concerning.
I don’t think that even Booster knows the answer to that yet!
The answer to that is “yes.”
Having a Joyce Experience seems to be a tradition of this Wing now.
Why can’t more people do this? I mean, it can certainly be wordsmithed to be more polite, but soooooooo many problems would be solved by “I don’t understand, but I’ll trust that you’re sincere and take it to heart and expect myself to learn on my own time.” Instead of demanding that people educate you, justify their existence, defend against arguments why they’re wrong, etc.
It’s so simple, yet so many people just don’t get it… Thank you, Joyce for handling this about as well as your upbringing allows. And while I would recommend anyone avoid this brand of hyper aggressive friendliness IRL (maybe ask before sweeping them off on a tour?), it’s fun in a web comic, so I’ll be perfectly happy with a Joyce who continues to do this kind of thing.
I mean if she didn’t have character flaws, it’d get pretty dull around here.
Honestly, I’m really glad I first learned about most of this stuff online and not in person like this, cause I’m not sure I’d be able to stop myself from wanting to ask a million questions and understand everything immediately. I’d like to think I’d be at least somewhat polite about it, though, or at least as polite as you could be about asking someone to explain their existence for probably the thousandth time.
Why can’t more people do this: because if you (general you) hear someone say something you had never heard of before, your natural first reaction is: what’s that? tell me more about that! Whether it’s their holiday in a country you’re unfamiliar with, or an activity you’ve vaguely heard of but don’t know more about, or a book you haven’t read yet, or something else. And usually, that is a good way to have a nice interaction, because you show an interest in the person and give them an opportunity to talk about something that is relevant to them.
Also, things you’re unfamiliar with are more interesting when they are attached to someone you meet in real life. There are plenty of religions I’ve never heard of, but I do know of the Druze, because I once met a Druze who explained to me that his religion & his people exist.
Of course people who have something (pronouns, countries, hobbies) explained to them should at the very least have a neutral reaction and not a hostile one. And I sympathise, it does get really old to explain pronouns to people if you’re a person with pronouns that are not immediately obvious. But I understand why people do it.
It does depend on context, though. If you mention a medical condition, people may be curious, but most aren’t going to expect you to explain everything to them on the spot.
To be honest, though, my “why?” was more rhetorical. I do understand that people are curious by nature and society doesn’t teach people courtesy related to pronouns and gender. And the reason why that’s the case is that we’re still in early days of this info proliferating in the first place.
Understanding it doesn’t mean I’m happy with it, though.
Society does teach courtesy related to pronouns and gender. In fact it teaches pretty strict rules on pronouns and gender. If anyone accidently misgenders a cisperson because they misread the normal social cues, they’ll be embarrassed and apologize (or occasionally go over the top and blame it on the target for misleading cues like long hair on a guy.)
It’s just that we’re changing those norms on the fly and it’s hard to keep up – if you’ve learned the old rules and aren’t up with the subcultures that are actively changing them.
So it seems like you’re the one following the rules and the trans or nb people are the ones breaking them. That puts them in the wrong, since they’re violating the social rules, but calling you out for doing so. Or so it seems to those still stuck with the rules they learned as kids.
Well, best case scenario anyway. Even odds the reaction will be: Sounds fake, but okay.
If panel 4 ain’t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P5qbcRAXVk
Then I don’t know what is.
I love panel 2 because you can really see the cogwheels spinning in Joyce’s head. She’s realised that she’s said or done something offensive (again) and she still doesn’t understand what or why.
As always, her solution is to turn up her sunshine to ’11’ and declare herself Booster’s #1 friend in the world!
I love the expression on Booster’s face: “Ohmigodwhatisthis?” They’re being kidnapped but is it for a nefarious purpose? Should they even be afraid as Joyce seems about as harmless as s Care Bear?
It’s GREAT, all of it. And Booster being so totally bowled over by the force of Joyce’s caring because Walky did not warn them about THIS. (In fairness, one cannot adequately warn about the Triangle Smile of Very Friendly Doom. Words cannot convey its true nature.)
Joyce’s response, as graded by me, the last person who should be grading anything about this.
Panel 3: I’m…. not sure about sharing that you have questions and concerns. On the one hand, openly acknowledging that you have hangups and points of ignorance and that it’s your problem, not theirs, can be a good thing. On the other hand, concern trolling. The line between the two can get fuzzy, and while I don’t think Joyce is crossing it here, even getting close to that line can make potential targets feel unsafe. I’ll… give it a B+, and could maybe be talked up to an A-. Good, but room for improvement.
Panel 4: Points for shifting off the topic (because who wants to talk about nothing but their own gender for the whole day) and addressing Booster directly as a person to interact with. It doesn’t erase yesterday’s ugliness, but it corrects course, at least. BUT… major points lost for violating Booster’s personal space, grabbing them without permission, and saying that you WILL introduce Booster around rather than asking Booster if THEY’D like you to introduce them around. Mmmm…. I’ll rank this as a C+, but I could easily get argued down into the D range.
Panel 5: And off Joyce goes without giving Booster any say in this at all. Booster is CLEARLY NOT OKAY WITH THIS. I’m torn over whether Booster’s face says “oh crap what have I gotten into”, which might be amusing, or if it says “I Feel Very Unsafe With This Person Who My Roommate Is Visibly Transporting Me Against My Will”, which would be… unamusing. I’m giving it a D, at best. Her positive energy, enthusiasm, and good intentions are all that saves this from being an F, and I’m not sure it SHOULD save her from getting an F.
Overall… Bad start yesterday, good recovery, then things get worse again. C- overall.
*Who Is Visibly Transporting etc
I was going to make the point that Booster’s only point of contact around here is Walky (and thus Booster might have been regarding Walky as a bit of a psychological anchor, a phrase that I never thought I could apply to a Walky). Now Booster is not only getting dragged away from that anchor, but the anchor seems to be letting it happen.
But then I decided the thought-process quote was too wordy, cut that point, swapped in the old Jason reference, and screwed up the edit.
“because she once accidentally researched stuff like that with the adult filter off”
Well at least she isn’t Big Bang Theory offensive
Are you referring to Dr. Sheldon Cooper offensive, or Young Earth Creationist offended?
They’re both pretty horrible.
Joyce has made improvements.
NO! BAD JOYCE! You do not put your hands on somebody else without their permission, and you ESPECIALLY do not manhandle them in a direction without their agreement!
She handled that better than I expected. She’s doing so good.
It takes a lot of strength to admit that you don’t understand something but make an effort anyway.
She certainly handled it better than some people my spouse has run into recently
Poor Booster! They should get the Dina Tour instead of this. It’s all Becky’s fault.
Booster is lucky. That Joyce is a friend and not an enemy.
Joyce is Booster’s booster!
I’m just not equipped for this life anymore. I don’t understand people. Booster seems bothered that their first impression led to confusion for Joyce. Booster seemed pretty comfortable in their skin at first blush, but this has to be a common reaction, no? “Hi Joyce, yeah, I have a different look. I like it.”
Uh? Booster’s horrified expression in Panel 4 seems to be about sudden invasion of personal space. There’s no confusion, Joyce’s holding them first by their arms, then by their shoulders (and pushing strong enough to move a person taller than her).
Booster was immediately anticipating possible reactions, many of which would be negative / annoying in the long term.
Also, doesn’t matter how comfortable one is in their own skin. It gets kinda annoying having to be the human Wikipedia article on non-binary people every time you meet someone who’s never met an out nonbinary person before. Even if they’re being respectful about it, it’s still annoying.
On top of that, Booster was just told seconds ago that Joyce used to be a fundamentalist Christian. They’re anticipating the worst.
Booster’s eyes grow wide with fear as they suddenly realize they’re about to be “niced” to death. Oh well, it was good knowing you for today, Booster.
On 2nd read, I wonder whether Booster is fully confortable being touched like that.
Very few are fully comfortable being touched like that.
Booster no! Don’t stand to Rod stiff like that, you’ll just increase Joyce’s Power!
I see what you did there!
And “Rod” is short for Rodrick, isn’t it?
Anyway, we have got all the tree words in your comment!
NGL, Walky has been super annoying through this whole thing. Joyce is trying to improve herself, Walky actively tries to do as little as possible.
walky isn’t my favourite character but in this case I have no idea what you’re talking about
ok, so I’m looking at the groupshot title thing. I think, and this is totally my own headspace; but Joe is amused(?) watching Booster who is looking at Danny who is entirely too flustered by the situation. Did I miss someone else mentioning this already?
yeah i totally thought that meant danny will have a thing for booster. guess we really are never seeing ethan again
TBH, I feel like more people with backgrounds similar to Joyce’s should react more like Joyce did here in the third panel – even if they don’t say it out loud, but just in their own heads. Actually, for everyone, even outside of the context of non-binary – for responses to things about race, religion, sexual preference, identity, anything you encounter and feel is outside your bailiwick and is making you feel uncomfortable, this reaction needs to be more of a Thing.