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This reminds me of a fun *not really* story my grandpa used to tell about how his dad would make him go fetch the switch he’d use to punish him. Pretty sure my grandpa just told that story to scare me so I don’t how real it is, but I think it’s a pretty common one.
My dad and his father both told me that this was how my grandfather raised his kids. My dad has even said to me on multiple occasions that every kid should have a healthy fear of their father, and I’m never sure if he’s kidding or not, so I take it at face value considering he was a much scarier person in my early childhood than he ended up being when I hit around nine years old and we started building a real relationship.
I love my father very much and on a lot of days I even like him and think that he’s for the most part a good person (or at the very least, is trying the best that he can). But there’s a lot about him that I can’t stand, and there’s many things about his views on parenting that disturb me and I’ve vowed that if I ever become a father, I would never ever repeat. I wonder how much of that fed into my desire to adopt a kid once (or if ever) I become financially stable enough to afford a house of my own, rather than siring genetic children, now that I think about it. I mean, I have a lot of reasons behind that desire, but it wouldn’t surprise me if my experiences with my father growing up didn’t also play a role (he’s really big on the whole legacy thing, which I always thought was kind of weird since he’s neither rich enough, upper class enough or even really old enough for that to make sense to me; although I guess his dad was really into genealogy trees as a hobby, so maybe that has something to do with it?).
There’s a difference between a HEALTHY fear, and an Un-Healthy fear. you know when you’re in the store, and that kid is howling on the floor because parental unit either refused to buy, or even put back, some goodie they wanted?
That’s what the old man is talking about-that kid has zero fear of his or her parents being displeased.
Those kids tend to grow up to be the kind of people who don’t understand consequences to others, but have a wonderful self esteem. Prisons are full of ’em, and it’s never their fault.
That’s a lack of HEALTHY fear of parental displeasure. Unhealthy fear is what you get when it goes past the point of instilling empathy (‘this hurts me, it probably hurts someone else, I don’t want that’ is healthy empathy) and to the point of creating the OTHER high percentage content of prisons (or resulting in far worse outcomes, like someone tolerating an abusive spouse/housemate out of fear of being alone.)
The major issue isn’t whether punishment works, but whether it works on a specific individual-because we are, despite being the same species, every one of us a custom job. The same treatment that resuilts in well behaved, empathic, honest, kind and well meaning person A will turn out violent psychopath person B, or add person C to the list of annual suicides.
Not knowing your grandfather, I’d still bet it is probably the truth. A lot of parents did that, mine included.
One time my brother and I hid the switch and my mom threatened to go cut a new one from the willow if she couldn’t find it, guessing that we had done so but having no proof. (Green wood, if you’re unfamiliar, hurts a LOT more than seasoned wood because it’s got more spring.)
I feel like the line for what’s legitimate punishment of a misbehaving child, and what’s child abuse has shifted a lot in the last couple of decades.
My dad used to smack my sister and me HARD when we were naughty. Did it hurt? Hell yeah! But it made sure we never did that thing again! And do we harbour any resentment or suffer from long-term emotional trauma because of it? No. Because it was a legitimate punishment for actual misbehaviour.
But if it had been taking place now, instead of the 80s and 90s? He’d be hauled up for child abuse and we’d probably end up in child protective services. Geez.
I learned to do push-ups properly under the tutelage of water pooled on my back and my father with a leather lash. That’s my child abuse tldr. I could talk about the chills I still get when I hear the sound of a belt buckle “jingling” or being undone, but like… everyone has that, right? I’m almost 40.
I get the sense that a lot of you REALLY don’t feel like touching this one. 🥺
This is why I’ve prepared some Alternate Activities to help take your minds off things, and offer support if you were triggered!
1. What’s your favorite sauces to add to your McNuggets?
2. Tell me what kinds of games you like to play on your PC or phone, and what you like about them!
3. Wanna help me make a really cool game for all of you? If you’re familiar with Adobe Flash or Blender / GreasePencil and would like to cooperate or know of someone who would, don’t hesitate to respond! I’m hardly an artist, so I would VERY MUCH appreciate it!
1. I’ve always been a basic and picky eater and have only in the past year or so began to explore the use of any condiment besides ketchup.
I’m finding that I like combinations of heat and sweet more than anything else, but no particular sauce over another thus far besides sriracha ketchup.
2. I’m a filthy casual when it comes to games, and generally care about story more than challenge. That said, aside from playing dnd twice weekly with friends online, I like to play logic puzzles on my phone, the ones where “Sally or Walky had the nuggets while the other was climbing up to the second floor from outside the building” and you would put a circle in the grid where Walky and nuggets intersected.
They’re called logic puzzles.
In fact I play mine on an app named Logic Puzzles.
Basically you have three or more corresponding pieces of information, like say five DoA characters in the cafeteria and they each ordered a different meal and spent different amounts of time eating said meal.
Then that information is put into two grids, one vertical and one horizontal (like the squares you’d fill in for science class when learning the ratio of XX to XY chromosome pairings from potential parents).
Along with the grid, there would be clues like the example I gave earlier about the twins. Using the clues, you’d fill in a circle at the intersection for what you logically deduced (hopefully correctly) to be true, and you’d fill in an x for things you exclude from each category (so there’d be an x at the intersection of Walky and climbing the outside of the building).
The electronic versions usually have timers, but that’s just to test yourself. You can also get them in little paperback books at grocery stores and pharmacies just like crossword puzzle books, word search books, and sudoku.
As for playing dnd online, there are a number of what I believe are called virtual table top rpg forums, where they let people login together, set up character sheets, and allow you to control tokens on 2d and even 3d maps, as well as roll dice for all your dice rolling needs.
We play on Roll20. It’s a website and an app and is setup to handle a variety of different games on top of dnd. It’s free to be a player, but I think dms need to pay, at least for certain tiers or access to information on site (so you don’t have to put in every single piece of information and rule yourself).
As for how we got together in the first place, we were all in the DnD Beyond forums looking for fellow players and/or a dm to play with, though plenty of people just play with the people they already know.
1. I dont care what you put on it Im not eating them. 2. Any Total War game on PC because I love war games but Im too anti-social to actual play them against other people so this is perfect. 3. Sorry I cant help you with that.
Not McNuggets bc McDonald’s doesn’t know how to run a business in Jamaica and got shut down 17 years ago. Which is fine because Wendy’s nuggets are top tier anyway. When i was a kid they had this honey dip they sold with the nuggets, not a honey sauce just straight honey, but it didn’t taste like the stuff out of the bottle either. Nothing compares to Wendy’s nuggets and honey, fucking delectable
I don’t want to normalize spanking, but I was spanked and I’m fine too. I get where Joyce is coming from. It’s trauma that happened, but we came out okay so you don’t have to suddenly make it a big deal, even if it is one.
Except that Dina clearly doesn’t think Becky came out okay, and she would know. And Joyce is steadily working through all of the many issues her parents gave her. Just because she’s not freaking out now doesn’t mean she’s fine, it may just mean she’s penciled in that freak out for sometime junior year after her partner makes an ill-considered joke about kink.
It’s worth remembering that Becky grew up with Toedad
While I’m sure Carol was horrid in her own ways I think we can be fairly certain Toedad was the sort of parent to use “physical discipline” for any slight real or percieved
I feel like Toedad is the perfect example of someone who has been shaped utterly by his environment. I doubt he ever struck Becky in anger. Which makes all the times he struck Becky in “love” all the more fudged up.
Mind you, Willis has done an excellent job of sorting the Venn Diagram of Fundamentalist Evangelical: Crazy [Toedad], Hypocrite [Carol], Okay but Misguided [Dad], and genuinely good but heretical to their crazy pants interpretation of the Bible [Becky]
He slapped Becky in anger for merely touching him. “On screen,” so to speak. And his whole project of getting her home by any means necessary was in anger for her refusing to be what he wanted her to be.
I stand corrected on the slapping. Mind you, I am of the mind doing so because of ideology that you’re in the right is MUCH MUCH WORSE than emotion. Premeditated ideological evil versus in the moment emotional.
I can testify that ideology is very, very often used to excuse emotion. I can testify that the Bible is frequently used to excuse the most horrifying abuse.
Tbh I suspect Carol did most of it – knowing Toedad would do worse it was the best she could do to protect her child. I suspect that was part of what led to the suicide, although whether that ever comes up in canon is unknowable.
The problem here is similar to how Amber or Becky felt when their dad’s died. Trying to make people feel something they don’t, just because you see it as trauma doesn’t mean they do, and Joyce clearly doesn’t. Becky may feel some trauma from her abuse, she clearly is holding some sense of shame from her upbringing but until she speaks up about it, we have to respect her space. Dina came looking for some insight on Becky’s shame over their shared intimacy which I can respect, but she didn’t come to make assumptions that Becky feels like some sort of victim.
It isn’t clear to me that Joyce “clearly doesn’t” feel the trauma. It’s clear that she’s making excuses for her parents, as many traumatized children do.
10000% this. I was spanked and I thought I was fine, too. My parents weren’t abusive in most ways. They just thought it was okay to hit their kids sometimes.
I don’t feel that the fact that my parents smacked me (in the 70s, rarely, and not hard) caused me trauma or permanent damage, but it doesn’t mean I advocate for it these days, either.
To say that a bad thing didn’t do you long-term harm isn’t the same as saying it wasn’t a bad thing. I know why my parents did it, and I don’t blame them for doing it, but I’m glad people don’t think it’s acceptable any more.
or…or! and hear me out on this one. cause that might sound crazy to you.
Sometimes…”i am fine” means…that they are fine, and that it is just there overactive analytical friends who interpret really anything else in the words someone say instead of listening to the words they are actually saying.
Cause i know i have often enough People do that when i just stated how things are and it always was really really annoying.
Yeah, that’s the kind of reverse logic trap that’s really annoying.
It is certainly true that many traumatized people will say “I’m fine”, but it’s also exactly what someone who is fine would say.
But it’s also exactly what I would say and I didn’t rob any banks. It’s not proof they didn’t rob the bank, but it’s certainly not evidence that you did.
They don’t go around after a bank robbery arresting everyone who doesn’t admit to having done it.
I don’t actually know what Joyce is feeling either, but it is clear that she’s very adamant that she’s fine. Maybe Joyce is trying a bit to justify a learned pattern of abuse, but it can also read as she doesn’t hold any resentment against her parents for it and that’s okay. You kind of have to respect someone when they say they’re fine sometimes otherwise you’re just fishing up trauma for no reason. Frankly I doubt Joyce has even considered the ethics behind her spanking or any possible trauma from it until just now.
And obviously someone who admits they’re not fine isn’t fine, so that pretty much covers anybody.
Now, if someone’s insisting they’re fine in the face of obvious evidence they’re not, that’s a different story. Joyce isn’t fine, though it would be hard to separate any trauma from the spanking from all the rest of the trauma from her upbringing.
Such arrogance, to think yourself in a better position than the person themselves to judge their experience. We live in a world now where people self-define to levels previously unthinkable, so you may want to wind your neck in a bit with that presumptuous “I know what’s REALLY going on” attitude.
Tbh given how she said it happened rarely and when she was very young, i feel like we may be in similar positions. Lots of issues with her parents, this just isn’t one of the significant ones
Then again the “what else were they supposed to do” is worrying. But I’m sure she’ll unpack all this stuff and realize hitting kids=bad by the time she’s a mom
It’s not necessarily about it being traumatizing or making someone feel something they don’t, because Joyce DOES feel something. Whether or not you registered it at the time, spanking does one thing very effectively, and it establishes and teaches the child a very specific type of power dynamic that they then internalize and carry with them into adulthood.
So like yknow. Maybe it’s not about convincing you you’re traumatized or a victim or whatever, but it’s about making it clear that what happened to you was wrong, and shouldn’t be done ever, regardless of how you in particular ended up responding to it emotionally. Don’t make excuses for it, it’s simply unacceptable, and if it’s unacceptable now, it was unacceptable then.
I’m gonna be the bad guy, here. I can think of one instance when spanking is acceptable for me, and only the one.
An issue of serious danger.
Children learn quickly, this is true, but children learn incompletely. They grasp correlation long before they grasp causation (EG: I’ve had kids scream when they run out of the logic: Fast things are loud, therefore if you are loud you must be moving faster).
When a child is doing something that is putting them or somebody else in serious danger (pushing somebody down stairs because it is ‘funny’, running into a busy street) it becomes essential to keep them safe until their mind has the time it needs to learn that lesson.
A single, open palmed swat on the rear is enough deterrent. And I do not deny the power dynamic you claim, nor do I deny the consequences that may come from it, but I see it as acceptable when the cause is making sure the child and their family survives long enough to reach adulthood.
Again, ONLY in issues of potential mortal danger. Not if you’ve had a long day and don’t want to deal with their smart mouth, that is 100% unacceptable.
No, that’s really not acceptable either. You need to grab the kid and get them out of danger and then the consequence is they’re not going to be able to have the opportunity to do the thing again, whether that’s going on a kid leash or baby gating the stairs or whatever.
Aye, and we should note that there’s a lot of variance in how spanking is delivered. Becky’s father and Joyce’s father are very, very, very, very, very different people (I assume that Joyce’s mother insisted that it wasn’t her place, Pontus Pilates style), and likely would approach it.
I think this is part of where a lot of the disconnect, in terms of society in general, we have when it comes to spanking: The force used is not consistent, and what a timid person does rarely is going to differ from what a violent person does as the first, last, and only resort.
To be clear: I’m not saying spanking is good or okay. It’s bad. It’s something that we’ve culturally brainwashed ourselves to believe is acceptable (fun fact! The phrase “spare the rod spoil the child” is originally about leadership, not punishment, it has nothing to do with corporal punishment of any sort). It’s an ineffective form of discipline and child-rearing that leads to serious problems in the long term.
It’s also just something that affects people differently because they experienced it considerably differently, and it’s become a very loaded subject as a result.
It’d be easy to assume that Carol did the spanking but I wouldn’t be surprised if Papa Brown did as well.
They were raised to believe it was normal. Mind you, Papa Brown willingly left other churches to join their extremist one. So he has some serious flaws.
I have a feeling that the churches that the Browns left were just as extremist as their current one. The only reason why they said they left the old one was because the preachers involved were doing downright evil things, IIRC.
One of them mentioned by name was I’m pretty sure of the ‘dancing is a temptation sent by Satan in all its forms’ variety, as I recall. Or something similarly straight-up Puritan. Hank and Carol may be fundamentalists but there are in some respects positions TOO extreme for them.
So there was at least one church the Browns left for being TOO authoritarian, but I’d also suspect some of them were fairly minor theological quibbles. Like, ‘what secular music do we deem acceptable for our children to listen to, if any’ quibbles. The question of Halloween. The kind of thing where the differences between several varieties of Pennsylvania Dutch include ‘but you see, Mennonite and Brethren plain dress allows buttons and the Amish don’t’ and that says a WHOLE lot more about the similarities between the three than how they differ. (Mennonites and Brethren also drive cars, but Mennonites paint the bumpers black because chrome would too flashy.)
(… The Amish use pins or fasteners instead, in case you’re curious. They’re less ostentatious than buttons.)
Y’know, despite living in close-ish proximity to… one of those groups (not sure which, it’s always seemed rude to ask ’em), I haven’t done much learning about them. When they’re shown on TV shows and such, they’re usually made out to be mostly wholesome and kinda cool, though.
I might be reading too much into it, and conflating it with a different webcomic (I did a Something Positive binge recently >_> ), but that does kinda imply something a good deal more than disagreements on orthodoxy or church doctrine.
It’s actually interesting to me, and I think we didn’t focus too much on it at the time, that they did all that blowing through churches when Joyce was young, but old enough to remember it.
Which does suggest it was linked to them moving to more extremes – like giving up on Halloween and to the other changes in how they raised their kids, like starting homeschooling. John on the other hand would have gone through most of his childhood before settling on their current church while the younger more rebellious kids were raised in this one.
I don’t know if any of that means anything.
Yes! Not everyone who had potentially traumatic experiences ends up traumatized, and that’s ok. It doesn’t help people to try to convince them they’re victims. Different people respond to things differently.
It’s definitely one of those things where people like…impart concern onto me when I feel none myself. I dunno I’m probably just from a different time but I’m just sorta like “oh that happened.” I hear horror stories and I’m like “holy shit that’s awful” but I look back on myself getting spanked like “oh yeah that’s just a thing that happened. It’s whatever”.
Yeah, I get that Yoto. People have given me similar reactions in the past but … It just isn’t a big deal to me? The times they took all my NES cords for several still stand out as far worse and more stressful than any time they laid a hand or belt on me.
Not to mention the time they cleared out my bookshelf. That was straight up cruel.
It’s a gray area at best, but so far based on Sarah’s snarky comment at the end, she probably doesn’t care enough about the conversation to discuss the differences.
We should also note Dinah’s phrasing. She didn’t say that Joyce and Becky were spanked, she said that Joyce were beaten. The two words create considerably different assumptions in most people’s minds.
How is this controversial? Like why do people need to be convinced that ANY amount of harming a child on purpose is universally wrong, no matter how lightly you do it, no matter what your intentions or reasons. Now you can choose to forgive people for it, like, everyone makes mistakes, maybe they literally just didn’t know better, there’s lots of ways to be understanding towards adults or parents who did something wrong in raising children.
But regardless, it was a mistake, and it was wrong. Period!
Because this is intensely personal for everyone involved.
The vast majority of adult Americans were probably spanked at least once in their life. This wasn’t because spanking is fine or because all parents are evil bastards, it’s because, culturally speaking, spanking was viewed as an acceptable form of punishment for a very, very long time.
And, as you’ve demonstrated well, child abuse is one of those “special kinds of evil” crimes, that we react very viscerally to. It’s the kind of thing where you don’t want to hear about extenuating circumstances or anything, you want to slam the evil bastard child abuser into a wall until there’s naught but a bloody stain.
It’s one thing to say “spanking is a bad and abusive form of discipline and should not be done, we know better now, there’s no excuse for it.”
It’s another for someone to effectively hear “Hey, you, stranger, you know that one time your parents spanked you? They’re fucking child abusers, the bastards”. Which… yeah, it’s unfair, but it’s kinda how a lot of this discussion can come across to people who have a great relationship with their parents.
Its a reason I’m trying to approach this dispassionately and objectively, because of how hot the emotions get on this subject.
THIS so much. The issue with this argument is, when you water it all down to abuse, you are now insulting my family that I care VERY deeply for. If the argument is “whether or not we should spank I think we can reach an understanding. It’s underlying “your parents were abusive and aren’t real parents and should be punished” that makes me resist it.
The idea that it CANNOT be seen as a grey area by some forces me to choose a side and I gotta be honest. I’m gonna side with my mom almost every time.
You can love your parents and still recognize what they did was shitty. It’s very possible they did it because they believed it was good for you, or they didn’t know better, or they didn’t have enough emotional strength to resist acting on anger. But there’s no ‘grey area’ around spanking. It may or may not traumatize children, it may be done by good or bad people, but hitting children will always be abuse. Acknowledging your parents aren’t perfect and did things wrong is not a insult to them.
Aaaaand somebody has no ability to think with nuance, or, apparently, to read the preceding posts and take in what’s being said. Sure, you just run with your own hardline mentality and set the parameters for everyone else, they’ll just fall in line and agree with you eventually /s
I’m not personally interested broadly painting people as bad horrible abusers who deserve to be slammed into the ground, but I think people need to be able to hear that their parents and loved ones did something bad, and it was a bad thing to do regardless of how good or bad of a person they are. They’re more than able to be forgiven for it, but it was bad. It was bad in the same way that your grandparents being casually racist at thanksgiving is universally bad, even if maybe there’s nothing to be done about it and you love them regardless, it’s still bad.
And if your parents start casually talking about how an unruly child in the store should have some manners spanked into them or whatever, that’s also bad! It should register to you as bad, and it’s your choice whether to confront them about it, but if you have no reaction to that and think it’s not a big deal, then like. Maybe check yourself, and consider how you are participating in perpetuating the same harmful culture that allowed spanking to be normalized in the first place.
Gotta be completely honest, I’m getting weary of the “this is bad and you should feel bad” wave that’s taking over. I just feel bad all the time now cuz literally everything makes me feel bad and uncomfortable. It’s a heavy weight that I no longer wish to carry. Is this adulthood? Do I have to do this for 50 more years? I hope not.
Nah. Everyone’s gotta take, but ultimately the spanking debate isn’t worth anyone feeling bad over. If you came out fine and hold no resentment then good! Don’t fret over other people’s opinions on what doesn’t bother you. It’s not worth it. Tons of things happen everyday that are technically “bad” but most people get by. Tax evasion is bad, but I still sleep at night even though I know it happens and billionaires are getting away with it.
I don’t think you should feel bad!! Jesus christ, why are people interpreting my words in the worst possible bad faith?? You don’t have to feel bad about your parents doing something wrong, you should just have an internal sense of ethics around the topic. That is it. You don’t need to even necessarily do anything about it if you don’t feel up to it, just do your best you be ethical! That’s it!!! Aaaaaa!!!!!
It just boils down to “you don’t get to set the parameters for everyone/ anyone else, just have your own standards and observe them”, basically. People don’t need to be cajoled and harangued into falling in line with an online stranger’s views. If it bothers you so much that someone you don’t know and in whose life and views you have no legitimate reason to interfere, you might want to look at yourself first.
Right there with you Yotomoe. Now in my ’60’s i feel the weight of culturally-driven bad things I’ve said and done, and there’s basically no escape from them.
Some people respond with resentment; others with weariness. Best I can do is realize the distinction between a person and the culture they live in is not all that clear. A little less belief in free will and the self.
Yotomoe, I feel concerned when I hear this comment. I hope you have people in your life (or can reach out to some) who can help you reframe the future and find hopeful and relieving things to imagine within it. Like the butterfly in “Encanto” — I hope that hope finds you.
Alright, so it’s bad. And? Now what? A single internet comment is not the totality of a human’s existence, and it’s coming across like you expect people to… I guess wallow in it or else they’re The Problem? What’s your point, here?
I doubt there even IS a “point”, honestly- people nowadays just love to show how aware they are of everything in society that’s simply not up to scratch. “Look at me and how elevated I am! I’m not really going to DO anything to improve society except lecture people I don’t know under a comic, but… uh, yeah!” This is, incidentally, the kind of post to which the response is invariably “you don’t even know what I do to benefit society; I volunteer at the old folks’ home, donate to charity, yadda yadda”
I think this is an unfair comment, no one here is saying that spanking is OK and that they would’nt care if their parents continues spanking kids .
My experience sounds very similar to Yotomoe’s that my parents (very lightly) spanked us when we did something wrong but I’m not traumatised from it and I don’t need people telling me my parents who i love very much are child abusers (not a comment you’ve said, but some that I’ve read). It was a different time where it was seen as normal but they became older (and better) parents and stopped doing it. Parents aren’t always going to be the best at things
Sure, but when you’re saying stuff like “Like why do people need to be convinced that ANY amount of harming a child on purpose is universally wrong, no matter how lightly you do it, no matter what your intentions or reasons”, it doesn’t really imply that you’re focusing on the act itself and not trying to pass judgement on the individuals that were duped by societal trends in general.
One of the most important parts of growing up is learning to view your parents as people first, not as demigod like figures. I fully agree on that. But while I do view my parents as people first, I also view them as people I love. I’m aware that they’ve made mistakes. But if there’s going to be a discussion on this, it really does need to be focused on the act and culture as a whole, and not on the individuals that grew up immersed in it.
And the point others have reiterated is important too: Don’t argue with people by saying they’ve been abused. If they recognize all the facts of things, agree on the morality of things, are in a healthy mindspace and at peace with it all, don’t try to disrupt that.
People online nowadays seem to enjoy fomenting misery and undermining the best others can do to be stable and happy- “You don’t feel bad about that? Really? Because modern studies show X Y Z; are you SURE you don’t feel bad? Maybe… maybe YOU’RE bad. Hmmm.” You have to wonder how this approach to life came about, and who it benefits. No doubt our “masters” who run the show.
Yes, you’ve phrased that well. My parents smacked me rarely, and I smacked my children even more rarely, and all of us were wrong: we should not have struck our children even once.
We were *told* that it was sometimes appropriate though. We didn’t know we were doing anything wrong. There’s a distinction that’s not being recognised between “Even though your parents didn’t realise it, that was an abusive action” and “Your parents were abusive people.”
I think it’s because being hurt isn’t a big deal for some people. When I was a kid we used into fights and roughhouse a lot, play outside and get hurt, get hit by a rubber dodgeball in the face, skin your knees on the shitty slides. Pain is just a part of life. I just didn’t really differentiate the pain caused by a parent and the pain caused by the act of existing.
Probably because its their parents that did it to them. Their parents that they love and care for, and are genuinely good people that had a skewed view on the matter because of popular culture. No one here is arguing that being spanked was a GOOD thing. But, if someone looks back on an event and regards it as “not a big deal” maybe you should just take their words at face value rather than trying to push them to accuse their parents of being child abusers. It’s a bit much, ya know?
No, that’s simply not tolerable to such advocates of universal dissatisfaction. “You ARE a victim (or even “a survivor” of spanking…). You WILL have a spotlight shone on you and you WILL be made to conform to my view of the world so as to confirm in my mind that I am justified in adhering to said view”. Never mind the person they’re pushing isn’t interested in “reframing their past” to fall in line with this random internet stranger’s demands…
I actually do appreciate Joyce’s reaction to Dinah here because while it’s unhealthy, it also shows how Dinah might try to bring it up with Becky who will probably react, “Dinah, that is NOWHERE NEAR my top 40 issues with my parents.”
It can also feel infantalizing. I knew my wife’s ex girlfriend reached out about her past and she was like, “If I wanted to talk about it, I would talk about it.”
I think Joyce’s experience of being spanked and Becky’s were different. Remember, Joyce just said she was a well-behaved kid and that Becky… wasn’t. I’m going to go out on a limb and say I think Becky’s spankings were not only more frequent, but more severe as well.
The reason Joyce doesn’t understand Dina’s distress is that she’s imagining the spankings she received (likely from Hank) applying to Becky as well. Dina didn’t get spanked as a child so it wasn’t normalized, and is correctly imagining the kind of beating Ross MacIntyre would administer. I get the feeling it was a lot more violent than what Joyce is picturing. Ross does not know the difference between abuse and love. He made that crystal clear.
I got spanked exactly once in my life, because my dad told me not to run into the (very busy) road and I didn’t listen.
Grabbed me, whapped me on the butt then immediately left to go inside. I never ran out in the road again, that’s for sure, but apparently my dad went inside and did his best not to break down, he was so upset he “hit” me (not hard, like a pat lol). Of the two of us, I’m pretty sure he was the one more traumatized.
That being said, I don’t think I’ll ever spank my children, as that was never modelled for me (excluding that one instance) and the rest of my childhood was mostly what the kids now call “gentle” parenting (Used to be called “authoritative” parenting, but essentially boils down to “treat your kids like they’re already human but need help emotionally regulating”).
no hang on one more thing
if you’re resorting to spanking you’ve already failed as a parent and should get your act together before someone rightfully takes your kids away from your unfit ass
The worst thing is that a lot of these people aren’t doing it because they’re angry or driven by passion but they were taught it was the proper way to teach your kids and your job as a parent. That if they don’t learn it as a child, they’ll get killed or sent to jail as adults.
Because society is at times an enormous asshole and moron.
But nobody thought that way back then, Delicious Taffy. Nobody said anything like that, and anyone who never smacked their kids at all was regarded as a hippy extremist who was bringing up their kids with an inappropriate and unwise level of permissiveness, similar to never telling them “no” and letting them have, do and say whatever they wanted.
It’s all very well saying we should have known better from the perspective of 2022. If smacking your kid was recognised in the 70s as grounds for having them removed, just about no one would have kept their kids. It was closer to being considered culpable neglect and grounds for removal if you *didn’t*.
Even in the 90s when I was a parent of small children, it was only just starting to be considered dubious, I didn’t like doing it, and I hardly ever did it, but we were told that we SHOULD. You need to not judge people for not single-handedly having moral epiphanies that nobody else was having.
Nah, I’m pretty comfy with judging in hindsight. The “moral epiphanies” thing wasn’t really ever part of my point though, so I’m not gonna bother arguing against it.
If I expected people to fall in line with my personal perceptions and opinions, I’d be even more miserable and stressed than I already am. So I guess we’re golden.
I’ve got to come back to this because it’s been nagging at me: Taking kids away from their parents is one of the most traumatizing things that can be done to them. Obviously there are cases where it’s necessary, but the idea that it should be done for relatively mild spankings is absurd. It’s one thing to argue that even mild spankings are still harmful, another to suggest that in response we should do even more harm.
(And that’s all ignoring the racial bias prevalent in CPS in this country.)
Sure, there’s lots of nuance and exceptions or whatever. At the time of that particular post, I wasn’t especially in the mood to consider those and while I don’t especially apologise for the extreme stance, I’m definitely willing to admit that it’s not the full extent of my rational thoughts on the matter.
It’s sort of ridiculous that the first line of defense against child abuse is having children be ripped from their families. I don’t even think this is true to be honest, although I guess it depends on exactly how shitty particular branches of the system are, but I’m PRETTY SURE the goal of CPS is to try and monitor the family first and put pressure on them and support them in changing how they care for their children, and taking children away is (or ought to) only be a thing when that fails or is unlikely to be worth the time and resources because the case is just That Bad. Or at least, that’s how it SHOULD work?
Quite frankly I’m both aware of the fact that our childcare system is horrific and corrupt while at the same time am skeptical of exactly how common that corruption actually is, because I feel too often that “CPS is going to take the children away” is used as a fear-mongering cudgel to keep abuse victims or struggling families from reaching out for help, and further enable the abuse. And I know it’s bad. But how bad is it ACTUALLY?
Sure, sure. Whatever.
I was responding to the actual words that said “someone rightfully takes your kids away from your unfit ass” in post I was responding to, not how CPS currently works, because they certainly don’t take kids away for an occasional swat on the bum.
Part of the fun part of growing up and moving away from home is finding out things that you considered normal make your new friends share concerned expressions!
Personally I’ll posit that yelling doesn’t really do much besides terrorizing kids, and should only happen in emergencies involving actual immediate danger.
Yeah, my parents shouted at me and I hate it when I snap and yell at my kids even though I (a) don’t “get down to their level” aka practically go nose to nose with them while shouting in their face, looming over them, and (b) don’t continue til they’re vomitting with stress then calling them ridiculous…
One thing I am working on is that I was often overlooked as a kid and hate being ignored as an adult, with a reasonably linear correlation. But that’s not grounds to snap at my kiddos, even when they are being too caught up in what they want to do to grasp that I would like them to do X, Y, Z so they can get to school/preschool on time
My parents think they are so great because they never used corporal punishment, they just yelled until I hated myself and wanted to die. And they wonder why I’m not enthusiastic about visiting.
And Miri I have the exact same issues with being overlooked as an adult, it’s a major trigger point for my anger.
I’d probably just take stuff away. I don’t personally wanna spank kids but I’ve dealt with a lot of really shitty ones to know that time outs and yelling do not normally work.
I don’t deserve kids but whenever I think about the fact that I’ll probably never reproduce I am filled with a profound indescribable sadness. I don’t want all the bullshit that comes with parenting, it’s such a chore, and it’s so expensive so why do I feel like crying whenever I realize I’ll never be one?
It is not certain. But I have a theory of my own if you’d like to hear.
Having kids really isn’t necessary for a human to feel happy or to avoid feeling loneliness. In fact, it does not guarantee that. Same even goes for marriage. Science has shown many times that those who are happy in their marriages and with their kids are just happier in general to begin with.
The idea that marriage and kids are an absolute NECESSITY in human life is only a means by which the privileged higher class can maintain their wealth, their status, their power, their means of production. As they have always done throughout history, they distort laws, religion, philosophy, social customs, so called “traditions” around their goals, to make their selfishness seem like altruism, to make the status quo seem like an oh so natural and universal order. But this is ALWAYS an illusion.
But if that, it is a very effective illusion. Having been instilled in the individual human at such a young age, stands a very high chance of becoming how they view reality itself. It has been known as far back as Ancient Greece — philosopher Aristotle himself stated, “Give me the child until they are seven, and I will show you the adult”.
I know that “financially” means something to do with money and “stable” refers to something not being on the verge of collapse. But when you put “em together in that order, it may as well be written in Swedish.
Of course they are unnecessary. Those are but a couple of the many implements that work effectively in tandem to maintain the Grand Illusion that keeps the upper class in power.
Wait, are you talking about wealth and power of the individual? Sorry, I am having a hard time reading your point. Neurodivergence!!!
I’m pointing out that marriage is probably an attempt to codify responsibility for the caretaking of children as a financial and moral responsibility. Quite a few people want to have kids and them to be cared for.
Tell me, would there be anything or anyone else you would like to have that name?
If not a human child, then perhaps a brainchild.
For me at least, to have an idea, an invention, a work that can leave that much of an impact on the lives of millions of people, that can make that much of a difference for this world, would definitely be a legacy worth striving after.
When I was younger I saw the movie “First Sunday” and in that movie there was a woman named Omunique. And I love that name. To the point that I decided I wanted to name a daughter that. Instead I made a character named Omunique and for a while wanted to make a cartoon about her. I haven’t done anything with her in years but I think about her sometimes. https://imgur.com/a/4lsZCbT
Can’t speak to anyone else, but if it helps Yotomoe? You’re not alone. I know I don’t want and wouldn’t be well-suited to parenting – especially the early ‘this tiny person depends on you for everything and can communicate their needs only through an instinctually distressing sound’ stage – but it does still give me some Weird Feelings, both in the societal conditioning ‘this is what you’re Supposed To do and want’ way Wellerman talks about and because in general, I like kids just fine, I just know I wouldn’t be good at taking care of them. Recipe for weird emotions.
Not sure where on the spectrum of Complicated Feelings you fall, but regardless: sympathy, empathy, and internet support gestures as you find helpful.
I think for me I don’t like the responsibility of taking care of babies but the 6-onward ages do appeal to me. Basically when the child is old enough to talk to me at least SOMEWHAT coherently. So I dunno I could adopt (I mean probably not since they do OODLES of background checks to make sure you’re not a shitty parent which I doubt I’d pass) but also, deep down I would wanna have a biological kid with my DNA and a name me or his mom (or a compromise) decide for them.
But human, please do note that DNA is really only part of the picture.
For one, only half of all cells in the “human” body are actually human. As for the rest and how they work with the former, the science is not yet quite clear and cut.
More to the point, how you would raise them has very much an impact too.
But perhaps the greatest impact of all, would come from the world they would have to face, the people they would meet, the stories they would read, the media they would consume, and all the messages therein.
To make a work with a meaningful message of some kind — a book, a webcomic, a game, a character to be seen in all of them — that could make that much of a difference in someone’s life, millions of lives all over the world, that’s kind of like raising million children, isn’t it?
Jim Henson’s Muppets. Matt Groening’s Simpsons. Shigeru Miyamoto’s Mario. David Willis’s Walky.
They may not be real, but they have made all too real in impact in the lives of countless people all over the world, and live on as important parts of their childhood.
yelling time outs, taking something away for a specific amount of time, explaining why said thing is wrong, explaining why said thing is wrong in great detail to really emphasize that it is wrong.
“No PlayStation for a week/until you clean your room” was the most effective punishment/incentive for me, growing up. I’d sit there in my messy-ass room, fuming, until the siren call of Spyro 2 got too powerful and then oops, looks like I actually did what I was told and An Entire Parenting had occurred.
Mostly my stuff was taken away because of grades so it might be months before I get it back. I just ended up sneaking my DS back or watching TV when she was at work.
I had a few instances of grades-related punishments, but once my parents realised it didn’t help (ADHD, hostile faculty, etc.), that sorta petered out. Sometimes I wonder if they didn’t notice that PS2 Time was the only time I wasn’t completely shut down.
Sometimes, autistic and/or depressed people go on airplane mode and autopilot or even disconnect mentally and emotionally from their bodies for extended periods of time. That’s as much as I’ll say about it, strictly for the sake of definition.
It does appear that many neurodivergents, with many unique stripes, can experience this, and I am one of them.
In fact now that I know this phenomena, I feel compelled to confess something.
My human host has to this day been in a state of severe shutdown for a very long time. As an alien parasite, I currently occupy their body so that they can continue to function in the meantime, until the conditions are met that will allow for them to exit this state of shutdown.
I hope your host returns to their normal state soon and you can continue coexisting with them. (I’ve just been reading Jenny Lawson’s Broken (in the best possible way) and TMS seems like a viable option for exiting shutdowns in many cases, provided that you can get insurance coverage.) Of course, you have been a valuable member of this community, and we appreciate you as an alien and how you’ve consistently shown compassion for other commenters and been a very active member of the community and content producer, even when undergoing your own struggles. You are very much appreciated.
I wouldn’t call the entity currently running my body an alien parasite, but I get what you mean. I’d say I/it is a set of behavioural protocols I designed back when I was capable of self-reflection and had coherent thoughts.
It remains functional, far beyond the design specifications, with no serious ethical lapses (as far as I can tell). I’ve lost track of the path to recovery though, which is a bit annoying.
My parents were big believers in yelling. If you did something wrong (often on accident) you could expect an earful about how bad and ungrateful you were. It was very damaging to my self-esteem. I don’t count yelling as a good method of discipline.
As someone who was subjected to corporal punishment a few times, I had a similar response. It wasn’t even traumatic (unlike for some) because you didn’t register it as horrifying save in retrospect. Mind you, I’ve yet to meet any person who was beaten with a wooden implement like a ruler or switch or so on who actually “learned’ anything from it.
Mad Man actually did have the correct view of it by saying, “Whenever my old man beat me, it didn’t make me want to obey. It just made me hate him and respect him less.”
Meh. I don’t even find it horrifying in retrospect. In fact, on two occasions in school they gave me the choice of a paddling or writing lines and I took the former. Writing lines is a tedious battle of wills wherein I stoically get nothing done until they give up on the endeavor, so the paddling was the quicker and ironically less painful option.
Hitting your kids doesn’t require any critical thinking on the parents part, which is why it’s been utilized by bad parents for the majority of human history.
If you’re child has done something ‘wrong’, hitting them is basically saying you don’t respect their intelligence or their validity as an individual capable of making their own decisions.
It’s the difference between explaining that stealing is wrong because taking things you haven’t earned from people who worked for it harms the person who you robbed. If everyone stole and nobody worked, there would be nothing worth having and therefore nothing worth stealing. Orrr just hitting your kids, with the most explanation you’ll get being ‘because God said so.’
[[Hitting your kids doesn’t require any critical thinking on the parents part, which is why it’s been utilized by bad parents for the majority of human history.]]
Unfortunately, if you want to convince someone it’s a terrible idea this is the worst way to do it because they aren’t thinking they’re being dumb. They’ve been conditioned to believe they’re enacting in the role of legal officer in their home.
“Why do I not get to eat this cake?”
“Because you will be punished if you do so.”
It is the exact OPPOSITE of a passionate emotion driven action. At least the way it was taught in bumfuck, nowhere where I grew up. It was considered a societal good where you learned to obey authority at home to obey authority at large (you will go to jail is the societal spanking).
And yes, it is logic that doesn’t work in society or at home because corporal punishment just makes you hate the people delivering it.
Ok so this is a contentious issue so I’ll tread carefully.
I do think theres a difference between spanking and physical abuse the problem is i what i mean by spanking is probably different to what Joyce thinks it means and is definitely different to what Dina is thinking it means
I imagine Dinah comes from a house where spanking is physical abuse.
I imagine Joyce comes from a house where it is not.
I imagine Becky comes from a house where she was outright beaten and knows it was physical abuse and her church ignored the bruises because they’re terrorists.
I mean, the science shows that there really isn’t though. Like, personal impact from it will vary, but it is a harmful act. That doesn’t mean every parent who ever spanked their child is an irredeemable monster. Good people do wrong things too.
I think it’s a difference of degree rather than kind. The science is and has been settled for decades: Spanking is harmful to parent/child relationships and child development, and kids who have had mild spanking show the same kind of harms, albeit to a lesser degree, as kids who grow up in unambiguous physical abuse situations. Abuse is what we call it when it crosses past the invisible line of what society has deemed an acceptable level of harm. But defining where that line is gets fuzzy and difficult because it’s hard to have a frank conversation about how much hitting of children we as a society deem acceptable because it’s an emotional and heated topic. And ultimately, whatever euphemism people want to use (corporal punishment, spanking, pops, etc): hitting kids is what we’re talking about when we talk spanking. Everything else is just window dressing IMO.
None of which is to say that a person who experiences spanking can’t have an otherwise healthy and loving relationship with their parents. In fact, science shows absolutely it’s possible. No relationship is ever perfect, and even mild violence doesn’t necessarily break a bond. But the science is very clear that violence will damage that bond, and that it’s imposto find a clear dividing line between spanking and physical abuse because they exist on the same spectrum of harm.
To me, it’s kind of like how there’s a legal difference between drink driving and driving with alcohol in your body but not over the legal limit, but both exist on the same spectrum of harmful. Society has agreed that the harm that comes of increased risk of crashes from mild inebriation is an acceptable harm. Regardless of any individual’s personal experiences or feelings on the issue.
Sometimes that difference in degree is essentially a difference in kind and I think that’s getting lost in a lot of the impassioned rhetoric here.
To use your drunk driving example, there’s a level of inebriation where any impairment to your ability is just lost in the noise of minor distractions and differences in people’s ability.
There’s likely a level of spanking that falls in the same category. Bad, but lost in the noise of all the other ways parents can screw up without meaning to, much less the damage that more serious abuse can do.
I disagree that a large difference in degree amounts to a difference in kind. Harm is harm, and in studies there is no level of hitting kids that has been shown to be not harmful. Any time a parent hits a kid, it is a harmful act. Are their other ways kids can be harmed? Absolutely. That doesn’t make this form of harm not harmful. There’s a dose-response relationship between hitting and harmful outcomes on a population level and all else being equal at no dose that is not 0 does the hit group have the same outcomes as a not hit group.
Now, that’s a different statement from saying that all corporal punishment should be criminal. Tbh, I am not sure where I stand on that point. But the science is clear that at no level that’s been studied is hitting kids not harmful, so it’s a difference of degree. A large difference of degree, I will grant, but still – degree, not kind.
The question is what level of harm is acceptable to society. We have chosen a level for drink driving that is actually considerably higher than background noise. Canada has chosen a level where physical injury causing marks that last longer than a few minutes is my country’s bar.
But saying this is the line of harm we accept is not the same as saying this is not harmful.
She also seems to be at least slightly perturbed by the conversation. I may not be the most eloquent at the best of times, but it definitely gets worse when. I’m upset. I figure as a character with probable braintism (my word, I invented it), Dina might function similarly.
No she’s correct. It’s just in this case, proper style is to rearrange the sentence to avoid this construction, because people will think it’s incorrect anyway cause it sounds unnatural. Joyce and Becky each possessed their own parents, and this has to be reflected in the sentence differently than if they shared parents. Again, better to avoid this use at all, but Dina’s speech is allowed to be awkward the way others’ speech are allowed (that’s another awkward one) to be incorrect in the eyes of Prescriptive Grammar, which has always been bullshit
–> Remember that Dina stated that the reason she doesn’t tend to use contractions is because she desires for “others to understand [her] clearly”, so she is not misunderstood.
Her construction here is a conscious choice which serves this purpose quite well.
Break the sentence down like this: “her parents and Becky’s parents.” She was technically incorrect. “Others’ speech are allowed” is also incorrect. “Speech” is the subject of the phrase, so, “speech is allowed.” Neither is something you’d point out in speech, though, unless you’re an even bigger prick than I am.
Haha, we posted at the same time, I address some of that below. As for “speech,” it’s the plural form of itself here. “Speeches” has a different meaning. If I said “everyone’s speech are” then that’d be incorrect, yes, because “everyone” is singular for some reason. But “others” is plural, and they don’t all posses the same “speech.” Again, awkward phrasing, yes.
HM I should say I mean that “speech” as in a talk you give to an audience has a normal plural form -s. “The students gave great speeches.” But the meaning of “speech” I used has itself as a plural form. Kind of like the opposite of when you talk about a country’s “peoples,” which is used in a different context as opposed to a country’s “people.” English is terrible and wonderful in all its ambiguity, and makes for a good party trick.
Sure, “hers parents” doesn’t make sense, but that isn’t what’s happening here.
Consider: “Becky’s parents and her”
Now: “Becky’s parents and hers”
Then, since they share “she” pronouns, the only way Dina can get around repeating Joyce’s name for clarity (which would also be awkward!) is to swap the order. It’s not a pretty solution to a problem best left abandoned, but I find it neat.
silas, I agree with you. “Her and Becky’s parents” is short for “her parents and Becky’s parents”.
“Becky’s and her parents” would work the same, although it’s a little bit more prone to be confusing.
Both are a different construction from “Becky’s parents and hers”.
And “hers and Becky’s parents” is technically ungrammatical, seeing “hers” doesn’t have anything to refer back to – it has to “refer forward”. We still understand it, but it would be considered an error in an English exam.
Compare “my and Becky’s parents” or “Becky’s and my parents” (where there’s not the ambiguity of the word “her” to confuse things) with “Becky’s parents and mine” and with “mine and Becky’s parents”.
The last one is descriptively acceptable, but it *is* prescriptively wrong, because “mine” doesn’t have an antecedent. And postcedents haven’t been accepted into traditional grammar yet.
Thing is I could see the cast being legitimately divided on this
Spanking is pretty ingrained in society as a discipline method, I wouldn’t be surprised if other members of the cast were spanked and see nothing inherently wrong with it, maybe not with a wooden spoon, and I suspect for Joyce and Becky it likely was a go to method for longer then it is for most people
That doesn’t necessarily mean someone will be anti. A lot of of ppl do end up buying in to abuse culture and perpetuating the cycle. And Ruth has been on screen as physically abusive to her partner and students.
Fair point. My mother’s side of the family were all beaten pretty viciously in different ways by both parents. She was also the main impetus behind spanking when I was a child.
If I ever talked to her again, I’d bet ten bucks she’d be downright insulted by the very concept that ‘spanking’ was abuse because she ‘knows what real abuse is!’ or some such.
You know I feel like I might haft to stop and realize that it’s different for different house holds. Some us see spanking a couple of pat’s on the bottom which we see no different as literal slap on wrist but even then I guess people would see that as unacceptable in the spirit having no tolerance of harm to kids.
But then I haft to think about the cases were bad parents are using obsessive amounts of violence tawords their kids over small slights and calling it “discipline”.
It kind of makes me remember a line from the George Lopez Sitcom show where George’s mom went on trial and they brought in his grandma and she tried to Justify the way she raised her “As a child you caused problems and as your parents we spanked you…sometimes across the face.”
Yup. Mine was pats on the bottom, open hand, no fists, no implements. After some experimenting as an adult, I found that a literal slap on the wrist was more painful. What Joyce describes as a spanking is already very different from what I use the word for.
I definitely think that’s part of the problem. In my household, spanking encompassed everything from a smack on the rear, to back hands to the throat to smacks on the face, hand or head, ear twisting, occasional choking or being pinned to a wall or lifted off the ground and shaken. My parents didn’t use weapons, but some of my aunts and uncles and all of my grandparents did.
When I refer to spanking, my mental definition includes all of that and more. By contrast, some folks have much milder definitions, and some have much more extreme ones.
Which ends up with a lot of people talking past each other.
And some people would tell me what I am talking about is abuse not spanking. To me at a gut level, what I am talking about is spanking and spanking is a euphemism for physical abuse. Consciously I know other definitions exist, but that’s the definition I lived amd it’s hard to shake.
In illustration of your point, Rose Red: I would never have given my children “a literal slap on the wrist”, because that would have been contact with bare skin, directly onto their body.
A slap on the bottom was padded either by a nappy or by both underpants and pants. So it felt less severe. “You don’t slap your kids on bare skin! You could actually hurt them!”
I don’t really like talking about this because I don’t like the judgement towards myself or my family. But this storyline prompted me to ask my mom how she feels about spanking all these years later. From our brief conversation her stance hasn’t changed much. She feels as if spanking as a disciplinary tool does deter children from misbehaving better than the alternatives. She believes, in her personal experience, kids who received spankings growing up are more well behaved. Her opinion is that you shouldn’t constantly spank children while rather saving it for real big mistakes and just sorta keeping it as a punishment in mind to deter further misbehaving.
It’s worth noting that my mom is VERY keen on the hierarchy of parent/child being very rigid. IE. I am not your friend, I am your parent and I need you to respect me. She wasn’t strict per say and we have a very good relationship but she really didn’t like being disrespected, talked back to or lied to.
Personally I can’t really picture myself spanking my or any other kid. I just don’t think it’s my place. Plus, and this is gonna sound weird, it somehow feels more ok for a Mom to do it than a dad I guess? And maybe that’s just my dated preconceived notion that she’d be gentler. Regardless I’d rather it not come to that, though I doubt I’d be able to punish kids with anything other than taking their things away.
However, I will also hold the counterpoint that a culture of normalized spanking will also allow for further abuse to be handwaved as well. If we can rap kids on the bottom with a hand or smack them with a belt, where does it end? At what point is a spanking a beating and who gets to decide? The parent? The child? The government? It feels much more justifiable to just…not allow people to do that. Better safe than sorry and whatnot. I don’t wanna disregard people’s experience with abusive parents or traumatic spankings just because I didn’t have a bad experience.
So now I’m at a weird place. I love my mom and I think she’s the best mom I could’ve had. Do I resent her for spanking me? No not at all. Do I think spanking is necessary? Eh, probably not but I can also see why it was done. It’s sorta like people used to give babies a little bit of alcohol to soothe a toothache. The long term effects aren’t super noticeable compared to the short term solution you see. My mom grew up poorer than I did, in a time period where being black was even worse than it is now. I’m sure growing up in Oakland around that time was pretty hard on her. It can be easy to see how someone who’s been really toughened by life can handwave a spanking. I’m sure her own mother spanking her was the least of her concerns a lot of the time. But the world I live in simply isn’t the world she lived in. I’m kind of a soft boy and I live in an era where people are having much more discussion on how actions can have long term effects on children. She probably could’ve raised me without spanking me and I may have turned out the same or even better. But PERSONALLY I don’t see it as abuse and I don’t see it as abusive. I feel insulted when people insinuate she is an abusive person or that she’s not a real mother, despite all she’s done for me. She had her reasons for doing what she did, be it her age, race, location, religion and the time period she and I were brought up. I still love her, spanking be damned.
I guess I just wanted to get my final thoughts on this whole thing out in the open, since the conversation these past few days has been increasingly uncomfortable for me as I assume it has for a lot of people.
I think the key thing here is for people to not make excuses for their parents for spanking them as a child but instead to make it clear that you understand that what you’re parents did to you was wrong, but that you have forgiven them. Maybe you forgave them instantly after they did it, even! You hold no ill will towards them, nobody needs to require that you do. It’s your choice to extend your parents as much grace or compassion as you want or feel able to.
But just because you personally forgive your parents doesn’t mean that what they did was right, or okay, or blameless, and absolutely nobody else is required to make the same choice as you, and many people simply aren’t able to.
But for a lot of people, it doesn’t feel like a ‘that was wrong’, or even a ‘that was right’, it’s just ‘that’s how we did things’. It’s more of a.. neutral stance on the whole thing?
Like people going, in this case, ‘yeah Yotomoe, you might be fine with being spanked but you still have to say that spanking is bad’, like it’s a judgement call. It feels… kinda… ehh? It doesn’t mean he’d spank his kids just because he was spanked and he was fine with it, it just means he was spanked, he was fine, and he has no real stance on it other than ‘yeah don’t physically abuse your kid’ like a normal person.
This isn’t a thing to take a neutral stance on, because it’s not a neutral thing. Even if you wouldn’t personally spank your kids or whatever, if you would sit idly by and say and do nothing if someone you knew was actively spanking THEIR kids, because oh it’s not a big deal, it’s just neutral–you’re still enabling abuse.
Just because someone was fine with being spanked doesn’t mean they’re sitting idly by, or saying ‘yes, all kids should be spanked’? You’re making a lot of assumptions here.
This is a very difficult argument to have, because it seems like people are getting shamed because they’re refusing to act like their parents were the devil. They’re not normalizing or enabling abuse, they’re just going… ‘yeah this was a thing that happened to me’ and they’re getting put on blast for it?
I’m not making assumptions, I was putting forth a hypothetical. And I also don’t think anyone needs to act like their parents were the devil. I have explicitly said like the exact opposite of that, actually, multiple times.
Spanking is, factually, wrong. It’s an act of abuse that has been proven at length to have zero benefit. This is what Joyfulldreams is saying; there is no scenario where it’s a unilateral positive, and in this regard they’re completely correct that there’s no neutral stance.
Someone can also have been spanked in the past and think “well that wasn’t so bad” and still have a positive relationship with the parent who spanked them. It was “how things were at the time” or it only happened if they were really bad. It can have happened and it be appropriately dealt with emotionally, it can be something that didn’t bother them, it can be something that did bother them but they hashed it out over time. This part is entirely based on subjective feeling.
I kinda feel this comment chain is taking Joyfull’s comments as “you need to admit you were abused,” which, that’s technically true, spanking is abusive in any instance because corporal punishment is abuse in every circumstance. Where I think Joyful’s comments are being erroneously taken, though, is that if someone was spanked, that means their parents are abusers and monstrous. I’m someone with a complicated at best relationship with my parents, but they’re still people and I can maintain a civil conversation with them.
Joyful’s point is more that there’s a difference between rationalizing it happening to you (which, yes, can be anything from “it wasn’t that bad” to “I didn’t like it, but it didn’t change my relationship with my parents”) and defending the act itself. The act is always wrong, but individual circumstance matters too, it’s just that this individual circumstance can’t be used to make a broader point on corporal punishment.
This is the kind of hopeless argument that just makes people feel like they can’t say anything unless they’re the loudest, most extreme voice in the room,.and it’s not useful.
If I wanted to get into it more, I think part of it is just… culture clash.
Like… growing up, I never ate cheese. It just wasn’t a part of my diet. I didn’t have cheese til I was in my mid-20s. My friends at the time were shocked, like it was a foreign concept that anyone could go that long without regularly incorporating it into their diet.
It wasn’t a big deal to me, because it was never a big deal… to me. It’s not like my family were some cheese-hating heathens for never introducing it in the diet. It doesn’t mean I’d never give my kids cheese or anything.
Heh. I’m reminded of a long-standing gripe that a forum Infrequent has with Questionable Content. One of the characters happened not to have eaten raisins as a kid, and for some reason this is the single most contentious, irrational, unbelievable thing in the comic, according to that forum.
Because nobody is going to sit down and listen to you say “You’re an abuser, and so’s your mom”.
If you want people to stop spanking, you have *got* to start finding another way to get the message across that doesn’t cause them to reflexively plug their ears up and go “lalalalalala” at you.
It’s one of those terms that gets thrown around by everyone and their cousin, so when it comes up, I think the human brain is conditioned to essentially go “Aw great, here it comes”.
It’s kind of a thing I notice a lot. People will take an issue and describe it with an extreme word. However that either Elevates EVERY instance of that event an extremely upsetting degree or, even worse, LOWERS the power of that word to a degree that it is taken less seriously. I know people who’s parents were legit fucking assholes who probably should’ve had their kids taken away. Comparing that to my loved ones is just…gonna rub me the wrong way.
I’ve noticed that too. Boiling every single thing down to its most extreme element is great for comedy, but when it’s used for sensitive topics that DO have nuance to them, it gets… Exhausting??
There’s a degree of that, but there’s also a degree of people are referring to very different experiences with the same word.
For some, spanking means something that to them was quite mild, on the level with a sibling smacking them for a toy which in the context of the otherwise healthy and loving relationship they have does not even feel wrong let alone abusive. This conversation brings up severe discomfort because the growing consensus that CP is overall harmful and the cultural push to define all forms of it as abuse feels like an attack on their loved ones and family structure, over something that to them is very mild and certainly not abuse. Because until very recently spanking was considered a tool in a good parenting toolbox even by experts, it creates the impression that the only reason people have a problem with things called spanking is moral panic.
On the other hand, Because literally no abusers call themselves that, there are folks like me and others here who associate that word with genuinely traumatic experiences. It is a word that to me conjures memories of terror, injury, and more than one instance where I was genuinely fearful for my life. All of which was euphemistically referred to as spanking. And because all abusive parents try to normalize their behaviour, we tend to have a subconscious bias that our experiences are reflective of all spanking. And, also, because parents who spank do so more often and more severely than they think or mean to, our experiences are more common than many people who’ve been spanked and didn’t find it harmful think. This conversation brings up intense discomfort for us because a lot of people who justify spanking will describe it as mild and no big deal and imply that people who have an issue with it are weak or hysterical, which I am sure you can see why we have an issue with that framing. Because our association with that word is with abuse, attempts to frame the conversation as purely moral panic comes off to us as minimizing or justifying abusive behaviour. Some of us (me included) do go one further because to us accepting any form of spanking gives a smokescreen behind which abusive behaviour can be camouflaged.
There are also folks who fall in my camp but don’t think they do because they’ve not yet unpacked their childhoods and aren’t ready for it yet, for whom this conversation brings up intense discomfort because they’re triggered but they don’t recognize that’s what is happening.
There’s folks who fall into a category of experience of abuse, who have internalized abuse culture and will or do uncritically continue the abuse cycle. And there are those who experienced it as mild and don’t see a problem with raising their kids how they were raised. This conversation causes both of these groups (which are different but often look similar) discomfort because they feel personally attacked. How dare you say I abuse my kids, sometimes kids need a good spanking, etc.
Lastly you have people who grew up in totally nonviolent households to whom any violence in a household is so utterly alien it’s incomprehensible that you can have experienced it and consider it mild. This discussion to them is uncomfortable because of a culture and moral values clash. To them, any violence in a household is always absolutely wrong.
And of course there’s a lot of grey areas in between all of this.
Genuinely, a lot of us are talking about different things and then misunderstanding or mentally misclassifying each other. When some households say spanking they’re referring to something relatively mild in context of an otherwise healthy relationship. When others use it they’re talking beatings with weapons. And there are households everywhere on the spectrum in between those extremes, and all of us are assuming implicitly our mental definition is the same as everyone else’s.
I don’t think anybody here is going to spank anyone, and I don’t think anyone here is an abuser, nor do I think their mom is an abuser, I never fucking said that or even implied it even once. I have literally only provided hypotheticals that I felt would demonstrate the point I’m trying to make about ethical principles. THAT’S IT.
Maybe it’s my fault for hoping to get something even vaguely resembling good faith from a comic comment section. Whatever.
What is the point that you’re trying to make? Are you trying to get people to say ‘spanking is abuse’? Because ‘This isn’t a thing to take a neutral stance on, because it’s not a neutral thing.’ and ‘you’re still enabling abuse.’ are very leading arguments. Your ‘hypotheticals’ sound like you’re trying to get people to go:
1. Well no obviously we don’t condone abuse
2. Aha! So you have to admit that spanking is abusive, and since your mom spanked you, that was abusive behaviour
I don’t know what your point actually is other than ‘I think spanking is bad’, which is a respectable stance, but it’s the fact that you’re insisting that there are no greys, there is no context, that anyone who’s okay with someone else spanking their kid is ‘enabling abuse’, that’s turning people off.
Of course there is context, there’s always context. Context is vitally important. And honestly, no, I don’t think that spanking is always abusive either, quite frankly! Something can be wrong and unethical without that unethical thing specifically being abuse.
If you’ve only ever been spanked twice or three times in your entire life, and each were notably not normal or usual for how your parents treated you, then no honestly! That’s not really abusive, because abuse is a consistent pattern of behavior, and a small handful of incidents that are not a part of a pattern is not really abuse. It’s still, however, unethical and wrong regardless.
Just like how it’s wrong for someone to, I dunno, cheat on their significant other. It’s wrong, but not necessarily abusive, unless of course that cheating is a part of a larger pattern of awful behavior.
Spanking is not always abusive, and y’all are not necessarily abuse victims. But regardless. It was wrong, and it is often abusive, and that’s important to acknowledge. That is literally all I’ve been trying to say. I’m trying to be MORE nuanced than most of the people you’re accusing me of parroting.
I’m saying yes, actually, spanking is understandable, it is a thing that non-monstrous people do, it’s a thing that people you love can do, it’s a thing that your neighbors or friends can do, and while all of that is true–it is STILL WRONG, and it’s important to be vigilant and to hold even the people we love accountable (if you feel able and of course within reason and in a compassionate way), to hold ourselves and everyone around us to a higher standard of conduct AND ethics, whatever our mixed feelings might be.
If that’s the stance, then that’s a LOT easier to digest.
I think that’s the point that a lot of us are driving at – like we totally get where you might be coming from. But it’s also been pointed out that the wording of some of your early arguments can be pretty inflammatory, and that muddies the point you’re trying to make. Because a lot of us HAVE personal experience in this that makes it a lot of gray.
That argument is an argument I can agree with. A lot of your prior comments just had this tone that felt very inflexible and shaming. I don’t wanna gang up on you cuz I know your heart’s in the right place. I just wanted to express how I feel about the whole thing and how it’s a really hard topic for a lotta people to navigate without catching feelings.
Even if you wouldn’t personally spank your kids or whatever, if you would sit idly by and say and do nothing if someone you knew was actively spanking THEIR kids, because oh it’s not a big deal, it’s just neutral–you’re still enabling abuse.
I don’t know how you think that sounds, but it sounds to me like you’re carelessly tossing around the A word, even for people who haven’t actually done any hitting at all.
Man, reading down these comments, you just get more and more brittle and hardline in your thoughts; it’s sad that you’ve suffered so severely from spankings but to give you your own advice, “absolutely nobody else is required to make the same choice as you” regarding this issue. You lack perceptiveness and humility, and I genuinely hope you achieve peace with your demons and can do better in future, as all you’ve demonstrably done in these comments is condescend to, irritate, and trigger people. Congratulations, “Mr High-Minded”
This is a lot closer to my truth. I’m against the idea of spanking and if I HAD to choose I’d say “yeah I’d side with the no-spanking argument” but at the end of the day, it’s just a weird thing humans did/do. We’re fucking animals who like to act superior but at the end of the day our first solution to a problem tends to be “percussive maintenance.
I think sometimes it’s also important to understand that a person isn’t inherently applying their own thoughts and opinions to the world at large, simply because they haven’t explicitly said as much.
Thank you for sharing, Yotomoe. Thank you for what you’ve written, because hearing an experience similar to my own has made engaging with this comic and the comments a little less painful.
Would I spank a hypothetical future child? Not unless it came to a child-needs-to-behave-this-instant-or-someone-is-dying situation. Although the clock’s running out on biological kids for me anyways, and there’s a lot of stuff I’d need to sort through before I’d be comfortable with not screwing up a kid for their adulthood, and I don’t see the second thing going faster than the first.
There were some rough parts of my upbringing that I’m still sorting out the consequences of (and no, I’m not talking about the spanking). Still, they never intentionally hurt me, which is more than I can say for at one friend’s parent who is proud of the fact that they never spanked or hit their kid. I was a very difficult child. My parents were good parents, and they did the best with what they had, and I love them with all my heart. It sounds like your relationship with your mom is similar.
Your Mom could be wrong about kids in general and still be a great mother who got lucky with a son she was able to raise well. Sometimes things just work out.
Did i even mention you’re an excellent writer Yoto? I hope you know this. You really have an uncommon way with words. Your comments are consistently crystal clear and genuine and just so pleasant to read. Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts <3
I don’t remember ever being hit, but my mom tells me she spanked me like once and decided that was not at all her parenting style, lol. She was spanked herself as a child and does seem to hold some amount of resentment for it.
Because I was a Highly Sensitive Child™️ I get the feeling corporal punishment, even if light, would definitely have traumatized me. Thanks for sparing me that particular trauma, Mom and Dad!
I spanked my first kid once because I was told he would go to hell if I didn’t and I had no other parenting tools.
Anyways I realized after one go that it wouldn’t work to get him to stop doing the semi dangerous thing he was doing (fundamentalist Christianity is very against toddler proofing the home), that if it did work eventually it’d be because I crushed his whole spirit, and I would damage my own heart
So I got rid of god, toddler proofed the house even more than I had, and found new parenting tools pretty fast as soon as I was open to them
My parents said I would understand as I got older and became a parent but actually I understood less. What I did understand is they could have had alternatives had they looked or tried, because I took that path.
…fundamentalist Christianity is against toddler proofing??? I…I perhaps shouldn’t be surprised but what on earth.
Well done for going against the grain, Robbie. It’s hard work but I hope your children reap the benefits of it and grow up happy with many opportunities.
Yes, and in fact the worst of them (such as the Pearls) will advocate deliberately luring your child into misbehavior by putting enticing things out so you have an excuse to hit them.
………… wut. Every single time I learn something new about fundamentalist Christianity I react the exact same way: prolonged, perplexed blinking into the void
With a feeling of nausea and misery spreading through your torso as you realise people not only put this out there, but more people bought into it and thought it sounded reasonable and sane?
I… I know there’s a lot of weird Christian symbolism where the husband represents God/ the wife the Church and all that but putting up many symbolic trees of knowledge to cause a fall is frankly nauseating.
I’m not gonna weigh in too much on the discussion but I’m just kinda interested what direction the argument in comic-time is going to go. Is it ‘wow Joyce you had a horrific upbringing and you’re normalizing it’, or ‘nah everyone is fine, you just think it’s weird because it’s not what you’re used to’?
I was spanked exactly one time. I don’t remember what I did, but I *think* I may have thrown and broken something about which my mom really cared. I DO remember my mom and dad being REALLY upset and sorry about the spanking (which, IIRC, didn’t really hurt) and swearing that they’d never spank me again. (I think my mom was crying and she doesn’t cry easily.)
They kept their promise; neither me nor my sisters ever again experienced physical punishment. (Although on the rare occasions that mom said she was “disappointed” in me weren’t great either.)
Anyways, my point is that corporal punishment does NOT work and I am very sorry to hear how many people have suffered it, I think it may constitute abuse.
PS: I worded this badly and my mom is the GOAT! She is not emotionally abusive AT ALL (I worry that my previous comment might have suggested that) and is a MAJOR part of my current support system. Plus pandemic, I’ve been having a lot of medical problems and mom is letting me stay with her and taking care of me until I recover. No, i didn’t like when she said she was “disappointed” but it also made me think about what I’d done wrong and want to do better. And mom ONLY said that for pretty major stuff! (Like the time some my friends and I basically broke into a half-finished house and had a party there.)
Just a gentle, casual nudge to folks that it’s alright and possibly even important to disengage from a discussion like this when it gets too uncomfy or you feel yourself getting needlessly heated.
They say “lead by example” of course, so as a specific outlet… if y’all have instead some Final Fantasy opinions and questions, I sure wouldn’t mind readin’ ’em when I wake up.
Why wasn’t Tifa put in Tekken instead of Noctis? Noctis friggin’ sucks. Tifa not only would fit in with Tekken better but she already LOOKS like a tekken character. God I’m so mad I’m stuck with Noctis’ dumb ass from an FF game people are gonna forget in a few years vs. Tifa, best girl, 20 years running.
God I wish it was closer to FF7 Remake cuz that game made me fall in love with Tifa (I’ll admit I’m actually a poser who didn’t play the originals. I just really wanted to be mean to Noctis whilst also complimenting’ Tifa.)
Final Fantasy Origin (the one where the guy says CHAOS a whole bunch) ended up being the best FF released in at least a decade and has the most realistic and heartwarming depiction of male friendship in video game history.
I was spanked.
I was knocked flying once with my dad then getting in my face.
I was hit with a switch several times by my grandmother (though I don’t remember ever having to get it myself).
I was popped on my hand a number of times.
I’d also had my tv privileges removed a couple times.
I never hated my family for any of it nor do I feel traumatized by what happened (though there are definitely a couple times that stand out in my memory); it was just punishment.
It was a thing that happened in certain situations.
I was mostly a good (and boring) kid so it’s not something that happened often, and they happened less as time went by, either because my parents felt talking was warranted more because I got older or because they got more into church, I’m not sure, maybe both.
Are there things that I remember more than spankings and were even bothered by more? Definitely. I’ll name a few.
I remember my father telling me about his father spanking him for spilling the milk three times in a row in a matter of minutes after being told to be careful twice.
He said his father left the room and only came back to spank him after he was calm.
My father then told me that he regretted that he wasn’t like his dad and had spanked my brother and myself in anger instead of calming down first.
I remember telling my cousin, after getting in trouble for stealing at the 7/11, and my mom spanking us both, that we probably wouldn’t get another one as when one parent spanked, the other would just talk to us.
I remember not being allowed to sigh or complain if I didn’t like or want to do something they told me to do, even if I was doing it when and how they asked.
They would even call me back from doing it to stand there until I had the right attitude or to fuss at me or to ask me if I had a problem or any combination thereof.
Now THAT, I hated, not being able to express my feelings because they didn’t feel it was respectful enough.
Now that I think about it (and please excuse the rambling nature of this comment), I was mistaken before; there was at least one spanking that I’d say traumatized me (and arguably more that I’m just not self aware enough to realize).
One time, my mother was away, so my grandmother made dinner for me which included cabbage.
I didn’t like cabbage and refused to eat it.
After going back and forth with me, she called my father downstairs and he spanked me then had me eat the cabbage anyway.
From that day on, even til now, and despite never being forced to eat cabbage again, the smell of cabbage makes me nauseous.
It didn’t prior to that day, but it does now (I have a similar response to greens, but that was always the case, not because of a spanking).
I was never spanked for doing things I wasn’t supposed to do, so I don’t have the experience of some where it taught them to not get caught.
I was spanked for doing something they didn’t want me to do in the moment or soon after, and sometimes I didn’t do it anymore (like stealing), and sometimes they stopped spanking me for it when they realized it didn’t change my behavior (like refusing to eat cabbage).
I don’t exactly know where I’m going with this (like I said, I’m rambling), so I’ll just end it here.
I related to that whole cabbage story so much. Not the spanking, thank god, but my mom boiled some cabbage for me and my grandma and I just…hated it. It was slimy and gross and felt awful and tasted awful. They told me it was the only dinner I could have that night and I couldn’t do anything until I finished it. I sat at my plate staring at that cabbage as it got colder and colder for like an hour before I eventually just said “I’m not gonna be able to choke this down, I guess I’ll go to bed hungry” threw it away and went to my room. From that day on I was never forced to eat cabbage again because I think they realized I wasn’t being picky, and I just genuinely hated cabbage.
I think the best, absolute best thing about being an adult is now when I say I don’t like a food, people just say “ok” and move on.Nobody forces you to eat stuff (unless it’s like your doctor or you’ve got a really controlling SO or something). I can just tell people I don’t like to eat something and they believe me. What a concept!
Anyway sorry to hear about that spanking. That shit woulda pissed me off too.
True, but I like salads and carrots and broccoli and stuff so for me it’s just certain vegetables. Now that I think about it I did judge my roommate a bit when he said he hates salad. I should apologize next time it comes up.
I hate all green vegetables, more or less, but only cabbage, greens, and broccoli make me nauseous from the smell.
Basically, I can only eat vegetables if it’s in something else and it’s subtle as well as not the main deal. Like I can eat them in my lasagna, but I’m not eating a vegetable lasagna.
The weird thing is that I used to eat some just fine. Peas, beets, green beans, baked beans, pickles, I ate all of them, but then I just stopped. Some it was taste, some it was texture, but I just couldn’t do it anymore.
Sort of telling how many comments talk about the specific number of times they were beaten, or the specific details of their punishments. It’s good for you that you realize at least one of those times were traumatizing. We have to understand and acknowledge the ways in which we were hurt to begin to heal.
I honestly can’t say how much it means to me that Willis is directly confronting Joyce’s laissez faire attitude about this. I was worried it would all be about Becky, which could have given a “well, it’s bad when bad parents like ToeDad do it, but Hank was a good man and so it’s fine” impression. This is a good comic. I really love Joyce’s defensiveness, Dina calling out the spanking as “beating”, Sarah’s sweet lines… I’ve been bellyaching a lot lately, but this comic is really solid.
Unfortunately people in the comments have piggy-backed Willis’s evident view of the matter to try and give their views authority over several commenters whose opinions- regarding THEIR OWN LIVES- differ. This is… less than ideal. Willis can put whatever he wants in HIS comic, but the fact that that specific portrayal/ approach has disproportionately emboldened some commenters is a shame.
Not even necessarily that – Joyce’s experience is on the harsh side of what most of those giving differing opinions about their own experiences claim. Wooden spoons and limited mostly by her own good behavior – suggesting that not just Becky, but likely her other siblings might have suffered more if they weren’t as “good”.
What Willis is showing, assuming it goes where we expect it to, is a pretty common experience for abused kids. The growing realization as they get out from under their parent’s thumb that what they went through wasn’t normal.
If I’d squirm while my mom brushed my ( Very long) hair she’d wack me as hard as she could with the brush…. Now she gets super pissed if I move my head away from her if she brings her hand close to my head.
I’m sorry that happened. It took me a while to stop reading that way to her hand movements, but it only started when my parents acknowledged that the way they disciplined me wasn’t right and apologized.
It stopped when**, not “Or want until”, stupid iPhone. Sometimes the word drawing thing on the typing pad doesn’t spell the right words and guesses the nearest adjacent letters.
My parents took that as a sign to scream at me for flinching because it’s not like you’re abused. And if I flinched more they’d hit me for flinching.
They didn’t use weapons because both of them grew up in abusive households where caning and strapping were weapons of choice and they recognized that as abusive. But to them, by definition anything that didn’t use a weapon was not abusive. All of which was euphemistically referred to as “spanking.”
(my siblings and I were often terrorized with the threat of cps – they’ll come and you’ll get separated and taken away from everyone and sent somewhere nobody loves or cares about you. Do you want that?” – and coached on what to say if anyone asked. Joyce here sounds like what I was coached to say and believe. “Oh they spank, but it’s not that bad and only when I’m really bad. What are they supposed to do if I won’t listen?”)
“Stop crying or I’ll give you a reason to cry.” after they’d already beaten me.
“I’ll beat your ass so hard it’ll glow in the dark.” any time I did anything other than sit quietly.
“If you call CPS again I’ll make sure there’s a reason for them to take you away by the time they get here.” The one time I tried to reach out to adults for help. No CPS did not follow up despite not being allowed to see/speak with me or my brothers.
“I wish I had cut them off instead.” My mother when I confronted her as an adult for breaking my hand. (Also the last thing she said to me, because I haven’t spoken with her since).
“Ugh, it’s not like you were abused.” My family. All the time.
To say nothing of the time my Dad wouldn’t stop strangling me until my Mom poured hot coffee on him, or the mountains of emotional abuse, screaming, belittling, hatred they flung at me.
I still used to be the kind of person (in my teens/early 20s) who said “I got hit as a kid and I’m fine lmao”… I am not fine. I flinch at things I shouldn’t, I have panic attacks and nightmares all the time. I am deeply and irrevocably fucked up as a result of my parents thinking that it was all “Just Spanking”.
Study after study shows that parents drastically underestimate how hard they’re hitting their children. Studies show that spanking at any level is damaging and wrong and doesn’t even work as a deterrent.
I’m not here to tell anyone what to feel about their own childhoods, but I will say that I don’t have grey area in my heart about this topic. And for good reason. What everyone else feels is their own thing, but I hope no one here advocates for hitting children regardless of their feelings on their own childhoods.
Nova, I am so glad to see you here. I was so worried about you after that comment you made two days ago about having your hands deliberately broken. I am so terribly sorry that I couldn’t respond right then, as I was having trouble processing it all.
I am grateful to hear that you have no contact with your mother. What a terrible, toxic situation. You are 100% RIGHT to protect yourself from that in any way you can.
I am so sorry that CPS failed you. The system usually does. We need better systems. We need better safeguards and better alternatives and better training and more funding for kids.
The fact that your hands were deliberately broken fills me with absolute rage. You deserved a lion to protect you. I am so sorry that you faced that torture alone.
You never deserved I anything like that. You deserve EVERYTHING you can do now to stay safe.
I’m sorry this is rambling. I just want you to know that you are valued. You are respected. You are precious. And you are worthy of safety.
Nova, so upset/enraged to hear this!!! Nobody deserves to go through that, and on top of it all get left in the dark by systems that are supposed to help us!!!
These systems, that humans put in place to protect other humans. We assume the powerful few, that governments, therapists, politicians, religious leaders alike act in our best interests, only to see them act in their own interests at out expense, merely acting like they care. At that point, the magical thinking surrounding these authorities can only keep us in denial.
As sad and crude as it is, I guess there’s only so much that humans, the product of 4.5 billion years worth of happy accidents, can do right.
P.S. you definitely deserved a lion to protect you. Hell, you deserved Ghost Rider, or your very own Guardian Demon to protect you!
Put me down in the category of struggling with this topic.
My childhood was abusive in ways of being bullied for being autistic and various family struggling with me. My dad was also abusive, mostly emotional but sometimes physical.
I was spanked once when I was a kid by my mum and that was it so I can’t say what physical abuse does long term, but I experienced casual and sometimes extreme forms of abuse, we all did from my dad.
I actually cut my dad out of my life for most of covid before letting him back into my life.
I’m very of the “cut them out of it hurts” school of thought, and I particularly hate an argument that avoids facing up to hurt, regardless of how much you love someone.
So I struggle with this cause I don’t think you should cause suffering if you can, and if any occurs, you apologise and take responsibility for that suffering.
I’m not gonna jump on anyone for their relationships and I certainly will not say someone’s love isn’t real or true, and especially if the perspective of someone is fearing police and society it’s very understandable, but I can’t ever say even a little spanking or any kind of fear based method is good.
I didn’t learn from my dad to be responsible, I just learned that I shouldn’t try because I will always fail
Also I’m not gonna jump on anyone about this cause I don’t want to hurt anyone, even if I have trauma from it
I was physically and psychologically abused for decades by family, friends, teachers and therapists alike due to being unwillingly labeled “autistic”.
It hurts me so much to have so much difficulty for people to tell the difference between my disabilities and my personality, and being lumped in with all the culturally ingrained stereotypes like Rain Man and Sheldon Cooper and all overgeneralizing, hurtful assumptions about us.
I just really wish that people would stop haphazardly lumping us all together into one generic category and actually see our stripes as individuals. I wish the way we talked about neurodivergence were more like the way we talk about gender or sex or romantic orientation, where you could say something like “I’m nonbinary, panromantic and bisexual”, where people instantly know what you mean and you still preserve all your unique stripes without it getting blurred up and painted over with a single brushstroke of a word and all the hurtful baggage that comes with it.
I feel that with titles that don’t allow you to talk about your experience on a personal level
I love queer cause I feel free with it, neurodivergence just always feels lost in important diagnosis, which is important in recognising the pain but golly is it a whole mess
Regardless of whether “neurodivergent” makes for a good, quick autocorrect for primate brains that just can’t help but extrapolate all those hurtful assumptions from the “autism” stereotype, we are in DIRE need of better ways to describe neurodivergence.
Not only for others to better understand us, but for us to better understand ourselves.
Marx knows how much trouble that would have saved me when I was younger.
Here is my two cents worth: My parents spanked me about five times. I remember three of them and I vaguely remember two others. This was back in the early 1960s, to put this into cultural perspective. Each time my father, who did the spanking, clearly explained to me what I had done wrong and why it merited a spanking. He then defined the punishment, how many swats and how hard, then followed through. He only used an open hand. Never a belt, which some of my friends’ fathers used (and, they said, was terrifying), or a wooden spoon.
Spanking was reserved for extreme punishment. In retrospect, I realize it was only used if I had directly disobeyed my parents and doing so put me in significant danger. The worst spanking I got was when I was playing with a ball in my front yard (age 4). My parents had specifically told me not to do that because the ball could roll into the street and I could get hit by a car. Well, the ball rolled into the street and I almost got hit by a car. My father saw the whole thing. He made it very clear he was giving me five hard swats on a bare bottom because I had purposely disobeyed him and put myself in danger. That is the only time he ever hit my bare bottom. The other two I remember were two and three medium swats on my bottom with my pants on. One was for playing with kitchen knives and the other, I think, was playing with matches.
The spankings worked. I never ran into the street again, nor played with knives or matches. I don’t think the spankings traumatized me in any way. At the time, I believed they were fair punishment. I still believe that today. Looking back, just giving me a time out or sending me to my room probably would not have deterred me from doing those stupid things again; certainly not as effectively.
By the time I was 5, just the threat of a spanking stopped me from doing stupid things. “If you do that, you’ll get a spanking” was a fantastic deterrent. That threat faded by the time I was about 7. By then I was mature enough to understand why I should listen to my parents when they told me not to do stupid things.
If I had a children, would I spank them? Probably not. Absolutely never in anger. My father never spanked me when he was angry. But I would not rule it out in extreme cases.
tl;dr: Properly applied, spanking can be an effective and non-traumatizing punishment/deterrent in some cases.
Seriously, it takes an incredible amount of lying to yourself to say “Beatings out me on the straight-and-narrow out of fear from those beatings but it totally did not traumatize me.
There was a different point I meant to make and completely missed.
(I should know better than to post at 3 a.m. when really tired. I rambled about what was on my mind rather than making a cogent point. My post really did not add to the discussion.)
First, to clarify my position: There is no question spanking and corporal punishment is a poor way to raise children. Many people who experienced corporal punishment did end up messed up, including kids I grew up with. However, should we ignore all the kids who were spanked and turned out pretty much okay? Would we have ended up better without a spanking? Possibly. We will never know.
The major point is regarding a bothersome theme in these discussions and some unintentionally offensive statements made because of it:
All children who were spanked were traumatized.
This is perfectly illustrated by Schpoonman. Schpoonman directly accuses me of lying to myself. I find that offensive. The offense is clearly unintentional, so I am not upset with Schpoonman. What offends me is the idea that someone who was not there and does not know me can claim to know how I responded to a situation better than me.
Like everyone else, I have suffered trauma in my life. I know what trauma is. I can say that I was not traumatized by being spanked. Was it uncomfortable? Yes. That was it’s purpose. And it worked. And I got over it. So, to answer Schpoonman’s question, yes, I am claiming the beatings did not traumatize me.
As noted in another post, laws work by enforcing punishments. Is that threat of punishment traumatizing? If so then our entire society is built around traumatizing us. I prefer to think our society is built on mutually agreed, constantly evolving, standards, including (ideally, though often not in reality) fair punishment for violating those standards.
Is spanking a fair punishment for violating the standards? Evolved opinion is a very strong no. Does that mean that everyone who has been spanked has been traumatized? Again, no.
Please respect our opinions of what we experienced.
We’re just going to go through every defense for hitting your children one by one, aren’t we?
“I was spanked and I’m fine” is covered in the paper I mentioned the other day. Science says, in fact, you’re probably not fine; not as well off as you would have been without beatings. And also for every one victim who thinks they’re fine there’s a hundred who clearly isn’t.
Well I’m going to try to not harp on about this since I’m sure it’s basically just spoiling the comic in advance. I’ll just add my personal anecdote:
My mother’s father used to drink and beat her and her elder brother. Then he found Jesus and stopped, which has been held by the family as the reason we were able to stay together as a family. Every single family gathering (mostly Christmases) grandpa would cry as he tried to express how thankful he was to have about twenty people around him instead of zero. Because it was a damned close thing, and he never forgot.
My mom died, and grandma died, but when grandpa got dementia and got mean and confused as he died slowly over the course of ten years my uncle and aunts still took turns to care for him, and still visited when he moved into a home. Most of them were with him when he died from Covid.
I was spanked perhaps a dozen times over the course of my childhood. That comes out to maybe twice a year?
I also had a bad reaction to a vaccine, the old kind based on horse serum – I’m told I had a high fever and that I’d just started talking and then stopped for a while after (which scared the hell out of my parents).
Both were cases of my parents doing what they believed/had been told was right for me, and I hold neither against them.
Sometimes I’ve wondered who I’d be if I hadn’t had that fever – assuming that it did, in fact, cause some degree of brain damage from which I never recovered – or if I’d been born in a different order among my siblings, etc etc; but I’ve mostly concluded that dwelling on such hypotheticals is meaningless sophistry. There’s way of knowing for certain, and no changing the past.
Do I have lingering trauma from being spanked? Would I be someone different if I hadn’t been? Maybe, but how can I tell, and is there anything to be done about it now? Of all the things I’ve been anxious about as a child or teen and now as an adult, physical violence or the threat of it ranks very low (my privilege in action, I suppose); I’m much more concerned with things like social rejection, my health, employment, the country, the world, etc etc etc. Perhaps this is one more thing I’m incapable of evaluating rationally; or perhaps that’s impossible for anyone without perfect knowledge and objectivity. (One thing I do know for certain: it’s 2 am and I should probably be in bed. So I’m going to go do that.)
I am so sorry this happened to you. But I really have only one thing to say. You ask if there is anything to be done now? There isn’t, not for you. Just reparations, healing, therapy, survival, any way to get through the day that works for you.
I agree with you but telling people “in fact, you’re probably not fine” is way too close to armchair psychoanalysis of a complete stranger.
I don’t think anybody likes being told “actually, your feelings on [personal thing] are this rather than the ones you think you have”. It feels condescending.
btw I’m no trying to accuse you of being condescending, I’m trying to point out that this is a difficult conversation to have in neutral terms while also pointing out what’s abuse.
I agree. I wish there was a nice and respectful way to tell someone the comprehensive research that has been done on their personal thing overwhelmingly shows that their self-analysis is wrong that doesn’t sound condescending. But, well, I don’t have it.
I can only link to said comprehensive research and hope people will read it for themselves if they find my conclusions spurious.
It is a classic “who watches the watchers” scenario.
Parent qualification tests would require trusting the ones taking the tests, both now and in the future. Think of it like this: Would you still want the government telling people who can be parents when the political landscape changes again and “that one party you hate” comes into power?
I experienced extreme abuse as a child and so I can understand the knee jerk drive to spank because hitting is what you were taught, but I don’t spank because I don’t want to end up being abusive to my daughter. I am autistic and I live with DID because of the trauma I grew up in and I want to be an infinitly better dad than my father was so I try my best every day.
The science is clear, and it has been for 60 or 70 years: Hitting your children doesn’t do what you want it to do and usually hurts them, profoundly, in ways that they will spend the rest of their lives trying to heal from. I want to thank you, Fox, for rising above the cycle of violence and maybe – though I don’t know your family situation – maybe keeping that daughter of yours alive and well.
They say the most lonely people are the most kind, and those who get hurt the most are the most wise. Us autistics probably prove that better than anyone.
Agreed, I’ve made my mistakes as a parent, but I have always done the best I possibly can. I’ve taken 4 different parenting classes and read every book I can because it’s a process unlearned what I was taught and putting new things in their place. My daughter also being autistic made this all the more vital since I had no idea how to help her learn the social skills I learned. My learning was done in desperation, to survive and I wanted her to learn in a kind environment. So, I’ve always done my best to teach with kindness and use therapies to help her that are based in kindness.
It is wonderful that you are working to do better, Fox. I am so sorry to hear about your trauma. I am so glad you are working to make life better. I wish you had been protected more as a child. You are strong. I respect your strength and survival.
Trauma is the point of a spanking. Trauma associated with a particular action, so the child does not do the action again. Never was hit with a spoon. It was always either a hand, a paddle, or a belt. This was back in the 80’s, early 90’s. Only my mom and dad, who were divorced never my stepdad. (Not that he was better, verbal abuse for 3 hours over leaving a cabinet open.) Never got spanked over the age of 10. I think my parents did the best with what they knew. As the zeitgeist regarding spanking shifted, so did their practices.
I had a similar experience growing up. When I was very young (definitely below 10), my parents would discipline me using a ruler, feather duster, or cane. (I feared the cane most as that hurt the most.) It was usually as punishment for more serious offenses, like fighting with my brother, or failure to do my homework. (Asian parents, if that explains anything.) At the time, this was considered normal practice by most parents, but as you said, as time passed and this approach to discipline fell out of favour, my parents stopped too. I think they were just following what their own parents did, not knowing any better.
Would I hit my own kids? Definitely not. I remember the fear it bred in me, not just towards the punishment, but also of my parents. I don’t want my own kids to ever feel that way towards me. At the same time though, did it “mess me up?” That’s harder to say. As far as I can tell I’m a perfectly normal, well-adjusted human being, although I DO have a deep interest in BDSM and kink so who knows, maybe my early experiences DID set me down on that path.
I am appalled by your spelling of “pterodactyl.”
Fun prehistoric creature fact of the day! Pterodactyl isn’t even a specific flying reptile. The corresponding one would probably be Pterodactylus.
Ah, the comments are still divided between those who have and those who haven’t read <a href="http://www.nospank.net/straus9.htm"the science. Makes sense, thanks for summarizing.
Ah, nothing quite like a “summary” that implicitly mocks and insults one side of a discussion, while completely misrepresenting their point at the same time.
No one’s saying spanking is good. They just want to tone down the strength of the discussion because it’s an intensely personal issue to a lot of people and there’s some that jump straight to “any parents who spanks their kid is a child abuser”, which hits a lot of buttons. The issue is just complicated because of how spanking has been viewed over time on a cultural level.
Seems to me to be a lot of “I was hit, I was fine geeze” vs “I really wasn’t fine with being spanked” to me.
There’s nothing for me to debate, I really don’t care what the point is for people who say that hitting kids to make them obey isn’t abuse.
It is not right to strike your kids to get them to listen, I’m coming from this as a person who’s “community” viewed spanking as a fix all and go to for all disciplines and you’re not going to convince me it’s not abuse, anymore than I am going to convince you that it’s not.
Yeah it’s a deeply personal issue, most of the ones that spark the discussion are.
No not all parents that spank their kids are child abusers, but hitting IS a form of abuse, and it’s cruel and not acceptable, it’s why we teach little kids to *not hit people*
Hard to teach little Timmy to not hit his peer in school when you’re gonna go home and spank him for it ya know?
Either way, tbh I don’t wanna discuss this further, as a victim of frequent “discipline” it cuts really deep and tbh I’m not going to be arguing from a “calm and logical” place because this is DEEPLY personal and emotionally charged, so I’ma just peace out here.
I like many others, was born in the mid-60’s and faced corporal punishment as a child. My father spanked me on 4 or 5 occasions. Worse, my cousins, who we would visit at the time, faced much worse.
One time, all three of us did something we new we weren’t supposed to. Something like starting their tractor without supervision (they lived on a farm.) We all were told to go to the woodshed (it was a real woodshed, holding the wood for the stoves they used at the time.) All three of us were punished not with a leather belt, but with a barber’s strop. Last time we ever did that!
From the same family, my aunt actually literally washed my mouth out with soap (lava, the kind with the lumps that were good with removing grease and stuff from hands). I had said poop. My cousins said we don’t say that, and my aunt said the same thing. So, of course, I said, “what, poop?” My aunt dragged me to the bathroom by my arm and cleaned out my filthy mouth. Last time I ever said that word out loud.
Here’s the thing. my dad was agnostic. I was raised without religious training of any kind. He spanked me, never bare-assed, more of swatted.
My cousins? Catholic, every one. They would tell me stories about the boy’s and girl’s catholic schools (different ones, of course) and their on-going corporal punishments (rulers were the least of the punishments. the head master of the boy’s school used a cricket bat.)
I swatted my kids when they were young, didn’t know any better. But now, for all of you younger people (say born in the 80’s or after) who are all astounded that we don’t think it’s abuse…
I personally think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Yes, it’s one thing to not punish a toddler, but there are much older kids (teen’s+) who seem genuinely to have never been told no, never been taught responsibility, etc.
People of my generation and older may have been ‘abused’ as kids, but as a whole, most of us seem to have survived and know right from wrong, and that if you do wrong, you will ‘serve the time’.
But does teaching kids boundaries and responsibility have to come with corporeal punishment though? Otherwise I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up as the pendulum having swung to far.
Not OP, but someone else who feels like the societal pendulum has swung too far to spoiling kids. But I think the pendulum swinging too far is a general cultural shift that included less people hitting their kids as punishment, not a result of people hitting their kids as punishment. And I kind of get it. You want your kids to have the best life they can, maybe the best life you never got, but letting them be a little emperor doesn’t equip them to navigate the world well as an adult.
There’s always been spoiled-ass kids whose parents let ’em do whatever. It only seems like there’s more because we have the internet for them to show their asses on, now. I remember before the ‘net, and even in the early days of “modern social media”, you mostly had to be out in public at the right time to see it or hear about it. Now it’s all available on this little rectangle in our pockets within seconds, so it’s louder and more prominent. At least, that’s what it seems like to me.
Sure, you survived. Congrats on that. Also congratulations on seeing the problems with beating your own kids. As to everything else you say, I’ll leave it to the 20 year old science to answer., http://www.nospank.net/straus9.htm
I think having part of your vocabulary banned is a worse abuse than some soap in your mouth. Most humans use words to think, so they basically gave you a micro-lobotomy.
What do you think teens will learn when being punished? They learn things like “don’t get caught”, “just lie, it is not like the punishment can get any worse”, and “blame someone else”, or maybe something like “there is no justice”, “I cannot be honest to my parents when I make a mistake”, and “When someone does something you do not like you are allowed to make them bleed for it as long as you have power over them.”
The idea that “if you do wrong, you will serve the time” is
1. Not the lesson learned from a beating, that is the lesson learned from getting grounded. Did you mean to say they learn “If you do wrong, you will be beaten”?
2. All based around the idea that punishment works. Punishment only works in the short term, but it doesn’t change the tendency to misbehave, and the increase in the perceived harshness of society will worsen the public’s tendency to misbehave, effectively replacing the punished criminal with another criminal (or two). If you want long term behaviour modification you have to work on the environment. The environment includes family, friends, media, and physical objects like locks, but also self-image. When you ask yourself “why did I act that way?” you are effectively looking at yourself as you would look at someone else: We are part of our own environment, you are “the other” in addition to being yourself. So one effective method of behaviour modification is to alter the way people see themselves.
Oh yes. Some “touch” with the wooden spoon by your good mom, some “little slaps” in the face by your good dad, here’s the best way to educate a child! (and make them hate you subconsciously…) Let’s hope they continue this conversation, because otherwise there is a possibility that Joyce may do the same in the future.
Lots of stuff here. This is codified (ritualized?) spanking within a narrow community that is wacky in many other ways.
So: not abuse by parents with low self-control, not occasional spanking driven by emotional bursts, not run-of-the-mill-in-those-ancient-times hierarchical discipline by otherwise loving or hating parents. (All of these are wrong, but some of them are more wrong than others and their long-term effects are widely different in intensity).
Also: Joyce coming out from the fundie cocoon means she will realise soon that she’s not fine with that.
Finally, a question for the Bible lovers in this forum: is there any passage going something like “Thou shall discipline your child”? Being raised a Catholic, I tend to file this as “another wicked innovation brought to you by your merry friends the College of Cardinals™”.
There’s the verse “spare the rod, spoil the child”, from I guess Proverbs? That’s taken to mean you have to beat your children into the shape of humans lest they become monsters. The finest of 6000 year old education technology.
I would prefer the words of my compatriot Astrid Lindgren, who I think you know as the gold standard of children’s books: “There is very little you can beat into a child, but there is no limit to how much you can teach it with hugs.”
The irony being that it’s a translation error that’s led to that interpretation. The “rod” in the context of the biblical passage in Proverbs that the “spare the rod spoil the child” line is derived from is shepherd’s crook used to, well, guide sheep. And when it refers to “discipline”, it’s using terms that are also used to talk about instruction and leading.
It’d be more accurate to translate it as something like “a parent must teach and instruct their child or bad shit will happen”. But bad/asshole translators took that and wrote down “beat your kids or you’re a shit parent” somehow instead.
(it should be noted that the bible isn’t anti-corporal punishment by any means. Sophisticated child-rearing techniques weren’t really implemented when the thing was being written, you know, back when shitting in a bucket was considered aristocratic behavior. Just that, as written, it’s not quite as bad as all that)
I am going to try to limit myself to this: If my subordinate at work does not do as they are told, and I strike them, I’m looking at assault charges, loss of my job, and a lawsuit.
So what makes it so different when the person that I am striking for disobedience is physically small and helpless, completely dependent on me as a caretaker, and doesn’t have any way to ensure that I suffer consequences for the assault, or even know that such is a possibility?
I agree with you, but do you realize you are making a strawman argument? No one suggests spanking is acceptable because children can’t defend themselves. You’re not going to convert anyone by misrepresenting their case like this You do know what the opposite argument would be, right?
That a subordinate at work can be reasoned with and can be fired if they are insubordinate. That a child cannot be fired, and cannot be reasoned with. That corporal punishment is sometimes the only way they will learn (which is not true, but it certainly feels true sometimes, and we can forgive first-time parents to not be expert educators).
They might also argue that, though you may not strike your subordinate, if they decide to throw a tantrum at work and refuse to calm down and leave, or they are breaking company property or hurting other people, you can call the police and the police might get physical, and would have the law on their side. Right or wrong, they’d have the law on their side, which suggests that even for adults, society considers hitting people acceptable in some cases.
Okay but that person breaking your stuff is a fully functioning adult who has been signaled to be violating some degree of social conduct that would require the intervention of the law.
They aren’t a tiny, barely developed human that you have full power and guardianship over. If I try to hit an employee they can probably hit back.
After yesterday’s strip, I went to google statistics about the prevalence of corporal punishment. In Canada, where I live, it’s about 75% of parents use it… Though that’s from a study published in 1996, and the methodology isn’t very clear.
My parents did practice some form of corporal punishment when I was really young (80s) Some spanking, a slap on the wrist, standing on my knees in the corner… My stepfather sometimes pulled my hair or squeezed my arm.
Their parents, of course, did far worse than that. It’s no excuse, but it is significant that there was some progress. New parents are likely to reproduce their own parents’ parenting techniques, it’s all they know. Parenting doesn’t come with a manual. Sure, there are books, but no amount of book learning is going to turn a twenty-something who just became a parent into a pro. There’s a lot of stuff to unlearn.
The spanking debate isn’t really a debate. One one side all the evidence from years of research points out to spanking and corporal punishment being detrimental to a child’s development. On the other side, we have the lived experience of a large segment of the population, the vast majority, who has lived through some form of corporal punishment and still consider their parents good parents, their childhood a happy one, and corporal punishment justified in some situation. It’s going to be very hard to shift the culture as long as one side is trying to frame spanking as child abuse. A lot of people will refuse to label their parents, indeed the vast majority of parents (at least in the 80s and 90s) child abusers, let alone themselves. The moral argument cannot be won at this time, there’s just too much emotion involved, so I prefer an evidence-based approach with a side of empathy.
And I think it’s important not to overstate the case. Yes, spanking can be detrimental to children. Children are often more resilient that we give them credit for, though, and parents sometimes make mistakes. A spanking won’t ruin a child or make a bad parent. It’s always possible to do better and be better.
I wouldn’t say it’s hard to change the culture. Here in Sweden, the tradition of beating your kids basically ended after one PSA campaign in the 1950s. It is perhaps the greatest example in living memory of how he way things have always been done can change. We just have to believe that they can.
Sweden has a lot more trust in its authorities than some other countries. It might work in Canada, if we take an approach based in science, empathy, and providing alternatives. You can bet that in the United States the issue would become politicized immediately. Masking and vaccines were politicized.
I mean yeah, on one side there’s factual evidence and on the other side there’s folks responding to that factual evidence and going “but what about this one circumstance.”
Like you even say spanking is detrimental as a factual statement, and then the other side there is “but children are resilient.” That’s technically true, I remember when I was a teenager thinking I wish I had been hit because then I could know that the constant emotional abuse from my mom who used to be the coolest person in my life and arbitrarily switched whenever she felt like having a drink was actually abuse and not just me being oversensitive.
You’re completely correct that parents can make mistakes and be better, but that starts with admitting it’s a mistake. This just feels to me like a total acknowledgement that it’s bad, but we have to be extra special careful because acknowledging it’s bad is, what, stressful to the person who did it?
I don’t get it. If I knew I was hurting someone I’d want to stop, and I’d accept I’ve done wrong because the idea that I could go through life obliviously hurting someone who is telling me to my face that I’ve hurt them is the most nightmarish thing I can conceive of. The only thing I’ve ever wanted my mom to say is “I’m getting help” instead of “it’s not my fault” and “it’s not all my fault” or breathlessly listing all the reasons she’s a good mom and raising my useless burden ass means she was entitled to get drunk and hurt me. That feels way worse than admitting she had done wrong in the past.
I’m not sure if I should even respond, because it feels like I’m just dragging you back into a conversation you want to leave. When I say children are resilient, I’m not saying it’s okay to hit them, I’m just saying that bad things happen to children all the time and we often underestimate their ability to cope. I can see that this is an emotional issue for you, and I’m just saying it’s emotional all over. I don’t think there’s much progress to be made by asking the other side to acknowledge their parents were evil, their childhood was ruined, and they are themselves abusers. Perhaps I’m exaggerating, but it’s what it sounds like. You are asking them to deny their own narrative and frame themselves and their parents as some measure of evil.
Yes, correcting a mistake starts by admitting a mistake, I just think there’s a better way to get to that point. There’s always going to be some relativism in moral debates. Everyone just thinks to their guns and their opinions. By pointing at the data, without making accusations, showing empathy to the parent as well as the child, and providing viable alternatives, we can more readily make progress than by appealing to how awful it is to spank a helpless child.
Two examples from my childhood, not events I remember but that have been related to me as I got older.
I’m a baby, old enough to hold a spoon and feed myself. Instead I throw food on the ground. My father warns me to stop. I do it again and laugh. My father slaps my wrist. I cry. My father feels terrible, but also he feels like he did the right thing. I stopped throwing food on the ground.
My little brother plays with the knob on the stereo. My father asks him to stop. My brother plays with it again. My father spanks hi , puts him in the corner. It takes a few times for the lesson to really stick. My brother was always a bit of a rebel.
Now, the alternatives might seem obvious to you. They are obvious to be, an early childhood educator. If your kid throws food on the floor, remove the food. Reintroduce the food when the kid is ready to eat. Perhaps introduce a game where we throw stuff with a spoon, but in a different setting, to really differentiate between play time and mealtimes.
If your kid plays with the knobs on your stereo, either set up your space in such a way as to make the stereo inaccessible to your kid, or do not leave tour kid unsupervised in the same room as the stereo. Provide your child with knobs he is allowed to turn.
These solutions may seem obvious to you, but they certainly weren’t obvious to my dad, and I’ll bet there will be several people here who would not find these solutions obvious either.
Take care of yourself, Spencer. I hope you can remember that there are people who care about you and value you. I do, and others here do too. I know that doesn’t help too much in the moment, but just remember to stay safe and give yourself space and time.
Well first I’ve got lengthy diatribes about how “you’re not allowed to call it abuse because I was spanked and I don’t think it’s abuse” and that if you call spanking abuse then, actually, you’re just trying to be woke on the internet or something, on top of how it’s a moral obligation to patiently explain to someone doing wrong the exact hows and whys of their wrongdoing or else they’ll keep doing it because they’re helpless to the slightest change and hearing “you’re hurting me” isn’t sufficient in perfectly kind and decent people. Now that’s been joined with “kids today are spoiled” and “Joyce is going to beat her kids.”
And the last like seven hours I’ve been caught in a loop where I got too real here and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about how my mother and stepfather could have physically beaten me and I still would have justified it as I did everything else that happened to me, and if I didn’t then someone else would do it for me.
So I should probably go touch grass because I’m letting names attached to cartoon pictures control my feelings again.
In the words of T-Rex, from Dinosaur Comics, “We need to touch grass.” (Can’t find the citation, for some reason, but it was about not needing to die on a certain hill.)
To people arguing wether Joyce is fine or not fine I say she’s not fine because the way she talks, she could very well do that to her own children. I’m not saying she will but “what else are you supposed to do” is a red flag.
I’m more in the “she’s fine but needs to educate herself”. She’s not traumatized by it, it’s not something getting in the way of her life or affecting her relationship with her parents or anything (I mean, there’s a fuckton affecting her relationship with her parents, this is just not one of those things).
She needs to learn that spanking is not okay, both for the harm it does to the child and their relationship with their parents and also because it’s just a shitty form of punishment in the first place, before she has children… but that’s not really a concern right now.
She needs a calm, friendly discussion about why spanking is bad that doesn’t impart judgement on anyone who’s been duped by society in general, absolutely. She doesn’t seem to need therapy or anything for it, at least based on what we’ve seen in this regard.
My point is just to separate Joyce’s situation from Becky’s. With Joyce, it’s a thing that happened, and isn’t affecting her relationship with anyone or her life or anything. It’s something she’ll need to address if she’s ever in a parental or guardianship position, absolutely, but that’s a long ways away.
With Becky, it is affecting her in an ongoing sense, she’s in a sort of perpetual cringe about doing things she knows that entities she’s used to being in authority might disapprove of. It’s something that addressing now would do a good job of improving her life and mental health.
I should note that, even with Joyce, we’re dealing with, what, three strips obliquely talking about it? With Joyce half-asleep for a lot of it? Entirely possible that a later strip where she’s fully awake shows more warning signs. But there’s a different between “potentially traumatic thing happened to a person” and “a person is traumatized”.
Human minds are weird. Situations are weird. Specifics get weird. Complexity of life and all that.
Well I need to agree with you that she doesn’t seem traumatized. I just don’t feel “not traumatized” is enough to qualify as “being fine”. It sets the bar really low. Also the more fine she feels about this, the more dangerous it is for her to do the same.
Yeah, it’s hard to really get a grasp on what “fine” really means in the long-term.
Most everyone could use more therapy. I just tend to say someone is “fine” if the issues they do have (because everyone has issues, yes, everyone, even you Steve, you’re not paranoid, I can see through the internet, put on a shirt already!) isn’t harming anyone, isn’t getting in the way of their lives, isn’t causing problems, if they’re under control and/or benign.
Hence why I’m emphasizing Joyce’s status as a non-parent. If she were a parent, or in a position where she were giving advice to parents, then it would sharply turn into “not-fine”, depending on how much she had internalized it.
Again, most people could use more therapy. Joyce certainly could, and if I were in the comic I’d certainly be suggesting it (although more for the whole *frantic gesturing at everything pre-time-skip* first and foremost). But Becky *needs* therapy on this subject, because it is getting in the way.
But it’s arguing over definitions, for the most part, which is something I hate doing because it tends to confuse points rather than clarify them. I fully get what you mean there, you’re absolutely right that “not traumatized” is a fucking low bar to set and we should do better overall.
Let’s say it appears at the moment to be way down on the list of reasons she’s not fine and the list of things she needs therapy for.
It’s possible that as she digs into that list with therapy, she’ll discover this is higher than she knew, but for the moment it’s not at all where I’d start.
I kind of feel an affinity for this discussion, although i don’t disagree with anyone here.
It’s just this idea of “people saying they’re fine”, when you have (sparse) evidence you should maybe be worried. It’s just suddenly boosting the frequency of this low hum of grief i have in the background.
I lost a friend in February. She was doing fine. She was doing pretty great even. Her mental health had been steady and well-treated like never before, she was sober, she was focused, she was enjoying her studies and planning for her future. Our conversations were livelier and longer than ever, she never ran out of smart thoughts to share or books to recommend or recently-attended lectures to explain for the lay but curious friend (me).
And then she died of a methadone overdose. we learned she’d been self-medicating recklessly for a while, had been using for weeks, had been basically deluding herself and everyone around her (after cutting off her girlfriend who demanded she get treatment for her addictions). Was she fine? We think she was just so tired of struggling against herself, that she just decided to be carefree, and forget about the poison inside her. So in a sense yeah. She was actually fine.
In another sense, well, she’s dead now.
So… yup. Being “fine” can mean different things for different lives.
Any parallel between this story and anyone’s point, or the comic, is purely coincidental. be kind to me <3
awwww thank you so much Laura. <3 <3 <3
i'm genuinely not sure if it is worse to lose someone when you thought (and they themself thought) they were doing well.
I think beyond the sickening feelings of waste and loss there's a sense for me of, "at least she had a few really good months". Because in spite of her relapse, which she wouldn't have been proud of, she was actually living her best life for the first time in a while. I will treasure those last few months despite feeling just a bit guilty for not seeing the signs, because she was beautiful and cheerful and inspiring like never before. Was that energy and beauty built on delusion and denial? It would seem so. It was real just the same, though.
My parents did hit me/pinch me when I was a kid (though barehanded, and never with a wooden spoon or a ruler or anything) as discipline, and I recognize that it’s wrong to do to a kid, though when I was Joyce’s age I would have defended the act so it did take me some time to fully realize that corporal punishment is not okay. I don’t resent my parents for doing it though. It was very much normalized in their home country even if when I was growing up in the US (in the 2000s) it was largely frowned upon. I think I’m fine but I recognize that it could have screwed me up in ways I’m unaware of.
It’s amazing how much the world has changed since this comment began. Like, we always knew beating children was bad, but I feel like it didn’t quite become mainstream knowledge that it permanently inflicts psychological harm and that we have firm, objective, scientific evidence of this until, like, 2019. I don’t remember seeing anyone actually mortified about spankings back in 2012.
What else is amazing, though, is how well this comic has aged. It really does feel like the present the whole way through, from the very first strip, even though I struggle to imagine any other story that, say, started in the ’80s but somehow still felt ‘current’ in 1995.
So as far as I can see, there are 2 topics lately that have distinctly led to 200+ comments of debate and intense emotion
1) Christian religious trauma
2) spanking as punishment
I promise I’ll make a robot to get the top comments days. I remember these cases:
– The Joshua/Joceline revelation (plus 1000 comments).
– Carla x Mary (from 800 to closed comments).
Hello! Long-time reader, first-time commenter, chiming in on the anti-“physical discipline” side.
This is from a bit of a different perspective: when I was 11-22 (more frequently when younger) I would be physically abusive to my parents and brother, hitting them when I got angry. I had undiagnosed ADHD and temper problems but that was no excuse – I knew what I was doing was wrong.
Still, it was still frightening to me when my mother decided she’d spank me with a wooden spoon, as if that would scare me into behaving. I was 13. I ran into the other room, frightened and crying out. It didn’t end up hurting that much, but the idea that one of my parents would chase me with what I thought of as a weapon disturbed me.
So, although I “deserved” such a thing more than Joyce or Becky ever did, it didn’t solve my temper problem and just added to the mutual distrust.
My mom never threatened me with violence or spanking, but one of my sisters had bad anger issues and would often tell me “you’re lucky you’re not my child” with varying punishments. She’s gotten a little better over the years, n3ver once physically attacked me though so that’s something??
People are saying things on the internet that upset me. This is my alternative to arguing with them. It is not very gratifying, but less likely to be embarrassing in retrospect.
Hey, welcome to the comic! Just a heads up that we (generally, preferably) refer to Jocelyne by her name. The characters might not know that’s her name, but we do.
With all due honesty, things discussions around here usually aren’t as serious as they have been for the past few days — the stuff that’s going on here right now is really more the exception then the rule.
Regardless, it’s always fun around here!
We’re a very diverse community, always here to offer support when you need it!
Trigger warnings implied by the comic itself, of course, but… I would like to place a big old “Trigger Warning” blanket over these while discussions of the past few days. Please be gentle with yourselves, reading this. Take breaks, look away when you can. Remember that none of this is your fault.
Please take what steps you can to stay safe.
I am not a mental health professional. I don’t have all the right words to say and not make things worse. But I do care and many others in community care, too. I hope each one of use can reach out to someone caring if we want or need help or a listening ear.
Infodumps (links and phone numbers) are my love language, and I know they are not useful most of the time. But if anyone needs help, in the US or Canada at least, I recommend calling 211. It’s not 911. It’s a 2-country network of social service directories. And that includes for emotional support. I hope they can point you in the direction of useful help if you could use it.
Hey, you’re such a pillar, Laura. you’re such a darling. Thank you for all the thoughtfulness and care you spread around here. it makes this nook of the internet that much less scary, that much more welcoming <3
Oh, no, not a pillar, milu. I can’t hold up a single wall. Because I’m often not here. Nobody should depend on me to be here because my spoons are spotty and often absent.
But I am glad to be here right now, sharing this space with you. Thank you for being a good friend here and in the world.
yeah sorry, didn’t mean to ascribe some sort of mission or anything to you. you do seem to be around a lot lately, just being thoughtful and expressing care for this space and the people in it, and it means a lot to me. I like to think you inspire me and hopefully others to be a bit kinder and more supportive of each other, so that this vibe lingers when you’re not around. =)
I do like the strips where theres no right or wrong answer.
Growing up I was spanked and sometimes hit which, with the benefit of hindsight, didn’t do me any lasting harm and, at the time, worked (by worked means it stopped me doing the things I was doing which I shouldn’t have been doing) and I’ve got no issues with it
Except the last time when I was 14 and was left with Tinnitus
My Father had been made redundant at a time when a lot of working class people were being let off (in the US it was called Reaganomics, in the UK it was Thatcherism and in NZ it was Rogernomics), and so had a lot of time at home and he decided that it was imperative he take a much active role in my education (spoiler he didn’t help and only hindered)
As part of that he decided that a spare room would be my homework room which was fine but it was also used as storage and there were a lot of old rugby books, rugby magazines, Giles annuals etc etc
So rather than do homework (which is boring) I read other more interesting or funny books instead
My Father saw this and as I was engrossed with what I was reading I didn’t notice him come into the room and so he decided that the best way to motivate me to do my homework was 5 open hand strikes (he was a big guy and I was a skinny kid) to my ears (hence the Tinnitus)
I now know why the reasons behind what he did (to a point) in that he had lost his job and therefore identity, didn’t know how to parent, probably realised that leaving a whole bunch of books in there was tempting but didn’t want to admit he was wrong to leave them and certainly didn’t like his authority being challenged
The problem is that it didn’t teach me anything except to pretend I was doing my homework and just sit there for 30 minutes and say its all done (he never actually got that involved that he would check my homework) and after that I deliberately didn’t do any homework or finish projects or anything of the sort and so my grades fell and I left high school with poor grades
I don’t know if theres a point to this or if its a form of therapy but there it is
I just wanted you to know that your story helped me.
Thank you.
I’m sorry it happened to you.
Hearing you placing these things in their historical context… it made things make more sense to me. I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate you. I appreciate your courage for sharing that.
After I read your comment, I called up my old man, and we had a good talk. I think it helped us. I am grateful to you for inspiring that call.
Tossing my hat into the ring here, but I do absolutely view it as abusive and traumatizing. I was spanked. It feels odd to me when people tell me they don’t see it in that way a lot of the time, because the very addendum people usually make “But I would never do it to my own kid.” Shows they know it negatively impacted them to that extent.
Well, this is a rather sensitive subject. And tricky. If you insist that someone went through trauma and they don’t agree, you’re just gonna wind up upsetting them to a degree and at the most extreme, having them probably lash out or cut you from their life forever.
Because I figure it’s gotta be insulting in a way. Or they feel insulted.
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I feel like the yardstick for trauma would be the literal yardstick Dad used yuk yuk
[he never used it fwiw, doesn’t matter that we didn’t listen or w/e]
“Mom even used to set the house on fire to keep us warm in the winter… we would say, ‘This is fine.'”
This reminds me of a fun *not really* story my grandpa used to tell about how his dad would make him go fetch the switch he’d use to punish him. Pretty sure my grandpa just told that story to scare me so I don’t how real it is, but I think it’s a pretty common one.
It’s definitely a thing that parents did (or do?)
After my grandfather was an adult, lightning struck the tree he used to be instructed to get switches *from*, and he refused to replace it.
I really had to do that.
Stepfather was a psychologist.
My dad and his father both told me that this was how my grandfather raised his kids. My dad has even said to me on multiple occasions that every kid should have a healthy fear of their father, and I’m never sure if he’s kidding or not, so I take it at face value considering he was a much scarier person in my early childhood than he ended up being when I hit around nine years old and we started building a real relationship.
I love my father very much and on a lot of days I even like him and think that he’s for the most part a good person (or at the very least, is trying the best that he can). But there’s a lot about him that I can’t stand, and there’s many things about his views on parenting that disturb me and I’ve vowed that if I ever become a father, I would never ever repeat. I wonder how much of that fed into my desire to adopt a kid once (or if ever) I become financially stable enough to afford a house of my own, rather than siring genetic children, now that I think about it. I mean, I have a lot of reasons behind that desire, but it wouldn’t surprise me if my experiences with my father growing up didn’t also play a role (he’s really big on the whole legacy thing, which I always thought was kind of weird since he’s neither rich enough, upper class enough or even really old enough for that to make sense to me; although I guess his dad was really into genealogy trees as a hobby, so maybe that has something to do with it?).
There’s a difference between a HEALTHY fear, and an Un-Healthy fear. you know when you’re in the store, and that kid is howling on the floor because parental unit either refused to buy, or even put back, some goodie they wanted?
That’s what the old man is talking about-that kid has zero fear of his or her parents being displeased.
Those kids tend to grow up to be the kind of people who don’t understand consequences to others, but have a wonderful self esteem. Prisons are full of ’em, and it’s never their fault.
That’s a lack of HEALTHY fear of parental displeasure. Unhealthy fear is what you get when it goes past the point of instilling empathy (‘this hurts me, it probably hurts someone else, I don’t want that’ is healthy empathy) and to the point of creating the OTHER high percentage content of prisons (or resulting in far worse outcomes, like someone tolerating an abusive spouse/housemate out of fear of being alone.)
The major issue isn’t whether punishment works, but whether it works on a specific individual-because we are, despite being the same species, every one of us a custom job. The same treatment that resuilts in well behaved, empathic, honest, kind and well meaning person A will turn out violent psychopath person B, or add person C to the list of annual suicides.
Not knowing your grandfather, I’d still bet it is probably the truth. A lot of parents did that, mine included.
One time my brother and I hid the switch and my mom threatened to go cut a new one from the willow if she couldn’t find it, guessing that we had done so but having no proof. (Green wood, if you’re unfamiliar, hurts a LOT more than seasoned wood because it’s got more spring.)
Never? Not even to measure stuff less than a yard long? Or to retrieve cat toys and/or Hot Wheels from under the fridge?
nope, no cat all of my childhood =(
[cat NOW *shakes fist*]
I feel like the line for what’s legitimate punishment of a misbehaving child, and what’s child abuse has shifted a lot in the last couple of decades.
My dad used to smack my sister and me HARD when we were naughty. Did it hurt? Hell yeah! But it made sure we never did that thing again! And do we harbour any resentment or suffer from long-term emotional trauma because of it? No. Because it was a legitimate punishment for actual misbehaviour.
But if it had been taking place now, instead of the 80s and 90s? He’d be hauled up for child abuse and we’d probably end up in child protective services. Geez.
I learned to do push-ups properly under the tutelage of water pooled on my back and my father with a leather lash. That’s my child abuse tldr. I could talk about the chills I still get when I hear the sound of a belt buckle “jingling” or being undone, but like… everyone has that, right? I’m almost 40.
I get the sense that a lot of you REALLY don’t feel like touching this one. 🥺
This is why I’ve prepared some Alternate Activities to help take your minds off things, and offer support if you were triggered!
1. What’s your favorite sauces to add to your McNuggets?
2. Tell me what kinds of games you like to play on your PC or phone, and what you like about them!
3. Wanna help me make a really cool game for all of you? If you’re familiar with Adobe Flash or Blender / GreasePencil and would like to cooperate or know of someone who would, don’t hesitate to respond! I’m hardly an artist, so I would VERY MUCH appreciate it!
I have always said that my favorite BBQ sauce is McDonald’s BBQ sauce. I stand by that.
Hey, we’re trying to AVOID trauma, here!
I dunno if they still have it but there was a habanero ranch sauce McD’s had that was really good
Hot Mustard was the best. It was also great for dipping fries into. I was so pissed when they discontinued it.
My Mcdonalds all still have hot mustard. It’s so good, I like dipping McChicken sandwiches into it.
1. I’ve always been a basic and picky eater and have only in the past year or so began to explore the use of any condiment besides ketchup.
I’m finding that I like combinations of heat and sweet more than anything else, but no particular sauce over another thus far besides sriracha ketchup.
2. I’m a filthy casual when it comes to games, and generally care about story more than challenge. That said, aside from playing dnd twice weekly with friends online, I like to play logic puzzles on my phone, the ones where “Sally or Walky had the nuggets while the other was climbing up to the second floor from outside the building” and you would put a circle in the grid where Walky and nuggets intersected.
3. I am not familiar with any of that.
First of all, what is the game you are describing here?
Second, I didn’t know you could play DnD online!!! 🤩
Please do tell me how!!!
They’re called logic puzzles.
In fact I play mine on an app named Logic Puzzles.
Basically you have three or more corresponding pieces of information, like say five DoA characters in the cafeteria and they each ordered a different meal and spent different amounts of time eating said meal.
Then that information is put into two grids, one vertical and one horizontal (like the squares you’d fill in for science class when learning the ratio of XX to XY chromosome pairings from potential parents).
Along with the grid, there would be clues like the example I gave earlier about the twins. Using the clues, you’d fill in a circle at the intersection for what you logically deduced (hopefully correctly) to be true, and you’d fill in an x for things you exclude from each category (so there’d be an x at the intersection of Walky and climbing the outside of the building).
The electronic versions usually have timers, but that’s just to test yourself. You can also get them in little paperback books at grocery stores and pharmacies just like crossword puzzle books, word search books, and sudoku.
Thank you, for the quick intro on logic puzzles, as they will make a fine addition to the programming puzzles I am already tackling. 🧠
But what I really want to know is how you play DnD online!
As for playing dnd online, there are a number of what I believe are called virtual table top rpg forums, where they let people login together, set up character sheets, and allow you to control tokens on 2d and even 3d maps, as well as roll dice for all your dice rolling needs.
We play on Roll20. It’s a website and an app and is setup to handle a variety of different games on top of dnd. It’s free to be a player, but I think dms need to pay, at least for certain tiers or access to information on site (so you don’t have to put in every single piece of information and rule yourself).
As for how we got together in the first place, we were all in the DnD Beyond forums looking for fellow players and/or a dm to play with, though plenty of people just play with the people they already know.
Thank you so much!!!
This is knowledge is so important to me, as it’s been shown that playing Dungeons and Dragons can actually boost cognitive abilities!!! 🧠
SAUCE:
https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/51790/how-dungeons-dragons-primes-students-for-interdisciplinary-learning-including-stem
My pleasure.
For nuggets I prefer honey mustard sauce (you are doing good work, The Wellerman)
I prefer my fries and nuggets au naturelle straight from the fryer.
I understand Spicy McNuggets are making a temporary return, along with the Szechuan sauce.
I usually eat my chicken nuggets and fries without any sauce at all. And I’m willing to try almost any video game at least once.
1. I dont care what you put on it Im not eating them. 2. Any Total War game on PC because I love war games but Im too anti-social to actual play them against other people so this is perfect. 3. Sorry I cant help you with that.
Not McNuggets bc McDonald’s doesn’t know how to run a business in Jamaica and got shut down 17 years ago. Which is fine because Wendy’s nuggets are top tier anyway. When i was a kid they had this honey dip they sold with the nuggets, not a honey sauce just straight honey, but it didn’t taste like the stuff out of the bottle either. Nothing compares to Wendy’s nuggets and honey, fucking delectable
I don’t want to normalize spanking, but I was spanked and I’m fine too. I get where Joyce is coming from. It’s trauma that happened, but we came out okay so you don’t have to suddenly make it a big deal, even if it is one.
Except that Dina clearly doesn’t think Becky came out okay, and she would know. And Joyce is steadily working through all of the many issues her parents gave her. Just because she’s not freaking out now doesn’t mean she’s fine, it may just mean she’s penciled in that freak out for sometime junior year after her partner makes an ill-considered joke about kink.
It’s worth remembering that Becky grew up with Toedad
While I’m sure Carol was horrid in her own ways I think we can be fairly certain Toedad was the sort of parent to use “physical discipline” for any slight real or percieved
I feel like Toedad is the perfect example of someone who has been shaped utterly by his environment. I doubt he ever struck Becky in anger. Which makes all the times he struck Becky in “love” all the more fudged up.
Mind you, Willis has done an excellent job of sorting the Venn Diagram of Fundamentalist Evangelical: Crazy [Toedad], Hypocrite [Carol], Okay but Misguided [Dad], and genuinely good but heretical to their crazy pants interpretation of the Bible [Becky]
He slapped Becky in anger for merely touching him. “On screen,” so to speak. And his whole project of getting her home by any means necessary was in anger for her refusing to be what he wanted her to be.
I stand corrected on the slapping. Mind you, I am of the mind doing so because of ideology that you’re in the right is MUCH MUCH WORSE than emotion. Premeditated ideological evil versus in the moment emotional.
I can testify that ideology is very, very often used to excuse emotion. I can testify that the Bible is frequently used to excuse the most horrifying abuse.
I don’t believe that’s a distinction.
Tbh I suspect Carol did most of it – knowing Toedad would do worse it was the best she could do to protect her child. I suspect that was part of what led to the suicide, although whether that ever comes up in canon is unknowable.
Carol is Joyce’s mom. Becky’s mom is Bonnie.
The problem here is similar to how Amber or Becky felt when their dad’s died. Trying to make people feel something they don’t, just because you see it as trauma doesn’t mean they do, and Joyce clearly doesn’t. Becky may feel some trauma from her abuse, she clearly is holding some sense of shame from her upbringing but until she speaks up about it, we have to respect her space. Dina came looking for some insight on Becky’s shame over their shared intimacy which I can respect, but she didn’t come to make assumptions that Becky feels like some sort of victim.
It isn’t clear to me that Joyce “clearly doesn’t” feel the trauma. It’s clear that she’s making excuses for her parents, as many traumatized children do.
I might add, “I’m fine” is usually a lie when people speak of their childhood.
10000% this. I was spanked and I thought I was fine, too. My parents weren’t abusive in most ways. They just thought it was okay to hit their kids sometimes.
I don’t feel that the fact that my parents smacked me (in the 70s, rarely, and not hard) caused me trauma or permanent damage, but it doesn’t mean I advocate for it these days, either.
To say that a bad thing didn’t do you long-term harm isn’t the same as saying it wasn’t a bad thing. I know why my parents did it, and I don’t blame them for doing it, but I’m glad people don’t think it’s acceptable any more.
Thank you. I’ve been trying to articulate my own experience (from the same era) and how I feel about it, and you did so very well.
or…or! and hear me out on this one. cause that might sound crazy to you.
Sometimes…”i am fine” means…that they are fine, and that it is just there overactive analytical friends who interpret really anything else in the words someone say instead of listening to the words they are actually saying.
Cause i know i have often enough People do that when i just stated how things are and it always was really really annoying.
Yeah, that’s the kind of reverse logic trap that’s really annoying.
It is certainly true that many traumatized people will say “I’m fine”, but it’s also exactly what someone who is fine would say.
“I didn’t rob the bank” is exactly what a bank robber would say, ya know.
But it’s also exactly what I would say and I didn’t rob any banks. It’s not proof they didn’t rob the bank, but it’s certainly not evidence that you did.
They don’t go around after a bank robbery arresting everyone who doesn’t admit to having done it.
Maybe not where you love.
*live
fucking automangle
I don’t actually know what Joyce is feeling either, but it is clear that she’s very adamant that she’s fine. Maybe Joyce is trying a bit to justify a learned pattern of abuse, but it can also read as she doesn’t hold any resentment against her parents for it and that’s okay. You kind of have to respect someone when they say they’re fine sometimes otherwise you’re just fishing up trauma for no reason. Frankly I doubt Joyce has even considered the ethics behind her spanking or any possible trauma from it until just now.
The more adamantly someone insists he’s fine,the more I look askance.
And obviously someone who admits they’re not fine isn’t fine, so that pretty much covers anybody.
Now, if someone’s insisting they’re fine in the face of obvious evidence they’re not, that’s a different story. Joyce isn’t fine, though it would be hard to separate any trauma from the spanking from all the rest of the trauma from her upbringing.
Such arrogance, to think yourself in a better position than the person themselves to judge their experience. We live in a world now where people self-define to levels previously unthinkable, so you may want to wind your neck in a bit with that presumptuous “I know what’s REALLY going on” attitude.
Okay, except that if you keep insisting someone isn’t fine, you’re just confirming your own bias when they object.
Tbh given how she said it happened rarely and when she was very young, i feel like we may be in similar positions. Lots of issues with her parents, this just isn’t one of the significant ones
Then again the “what else were they supposed to do” is worrying. But I’m sure she’ll unpack all this stuff and realize hitting kids=bad by the time she’s a mom
It’s not necessarily about it being traumatizing or making someone feel something they don’t, because Joyce DOES feel something. Whether or not you registered it at the time, spanking does one thing very effectively, and it establishes and teaches the child a very specific type of power dynamic that they then internalize and carry with them into adulthood.
So like yknow. Maybe it’s not about convincing you you’re traumatized or a victim or whatever, but it’s about making it clear that what happened to you was wrong, and shouldn’t be done ever, regardless of how you in particular ended up responding to it emotionally. Don’t make excuses for it, it’s simply unacceptable, and if it’s unacceptable now, it was unacceptable then.
Also by “you” I dont mean you specifically Sirksome I meant the generic “you”. Re-read that and realized it seemed phrased poorly.
this this this this. Spanking always has an impact, pun intended. It always teaches lessons.
I’m gonna be the bad guy, here. I can think of one instance when spanking is acceptable for me, and only the one.
An issue of serious danger.
Children learn quickly, this is true, but children learn incompletely. They grasp correlation long before they grasp causation (EG: I’ve had kids scream when they run out of the logic: Fast things are loud, therefore if you are loud you must be moving faster).
When a child is doing something that is putting them or somebody else in serious danger (pushing somebody down stairs because it is ‘funny’, running into a busy street) it becomes essential to keep them safe until their mind has the time it needs to learn that lesson.
A single, open palmed swat on the rear is enough deterrent. And I do not deny the power dynamic you claim, nor do I deny the consequences that may come from it, but I see it as acceptable when the cause is making sure the child and their family survives long enough to reach adulthood.
Again, ONLY in issues of potential mortal danger. Not if you’ve had a long day and don’t want to deal with their smart mouth, that is 100% unacceptable.
No, that’s really not acceptable either. You need to grab the kid and get them out of danger and then the consequence is they’re not going to be able to have the opportunity to do the thing again, whether that’s going on a kid leash or baby gating the stairs or whatever.
I mean, like, it’s definitely not the worst, most likely to be traumatizing way to do it, but I’m thinking in terms of best practices.
That the alt-text is “definitely fine” makes me think that Joyce is not actually fine about this
Aye, and we should note that there’s a lot of variance in how spanking is delivered. Becky’s father and Joyce’s father are very, very, very, very, very different people (I assume that Joyce’s mother insisted that it wasn’t her place, Pontus Pilates style), and likely would approach it.
I think this is part of where a lot of the disconnect, in terms of society in general, we have when it comes to spanking: The force used is not consistent, and what a timid person does rarely is going to differ from what a violent person does as the first, last, and only resort.
To be clear: I’m not saying spanking is good or okay. It’s bad. It’s something that we’ve culturally brainwashed ourselves to believe is acceptable (fun fact! The phrase “spare the rod spoil the child” is originally about leadership, not punishment, it has nothing to do with corporal punishment of any sort). It’s an ineffective form of discipline and child-rearing that leads to serious problems in the long term.
It’s also just something that affects people differently because they experienced it considerably differently, and it’s become a very loaded subject as a result.
It’d be easy to assume that Carol did the spanking but I wouldn’t be surprised if Papa Brown did as well.
They were raised to believe it was normal. Mind you, Papa Brown willingly left other churches to join their extremist one. So he has some serious flaws.
I have a feeling that the churches that the Browns left were just as extremist as their current one. The only reason why they said they left the old one was because the preachers involved were doing downright evil things, IIRC.
One of them mentioned by name was I’m pretty sure of the ‘dancing is a temptation sent by Satan in all its forms’ variety, as I recall. Or something similarly straight-up Puritan. Hank and Carol may be fundamentalists but there are in some respects positions TOO extreme for them.
So there was at least one church the Browns left for being TOO authoritarian, but I’d also suspect some of them were fairly minor theological quibbles. Like, ‘what secular music do we deem acceptable for our children to listen to, if any’ quibbles. The question of Halloween. The kind of thing where the differences between several varieties of Pennsylvania Dutch include ‘but you see, Mennonite and Brethren plain dress allows buttons and the Amish don’t’ and that says a WHOLE lot more about the similarities between the three than how they differ. (Mennonites and Brethren also drive cars, but Mennonites paint the bumpers black because chrome would too flashy.)
(… The Amish use pins or fasteners instead, in case you’re curious. They’re less ostentatious than buttons.)
Y’know, despite living in close-ish proximity to… one of those groups (not sure which, it’s always seemed rude to ask ’em), I haven’t done much learning about them. When they’re shown on TV shows and such, they’re usually made out to be mostly wholesome and kinda cool, though.
Ah, found it: The sotto-voice comment in the last panel here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/quarters/
I might be reading too much into it, and conflating it with a different webcomic (I did a Something Positive binge recently >_> ), but that does kinda imply something a good deal more than disagreements on orthodoxy or church doctrine.
Sorry to be a little tangential, but it’s SO good to see you got some of your spoons back Regalli!!! 🥹
Do you personally think this is a sign of recovery? Or do you think it is merely the result of an “urgency” trigger that some neurodivergents have?
I ask because honestly, I am wondering the very same thing about my increased activity here as of tonight.
It’s actually interesting to me, and I think we didn’t focus too much on it at the time, that they did all that blowing through churches when Joyce was young, but old enough to remember it.
Which does suggest it was linked to them moving to more extremes – like giving up on Halloween and to the other changes in how they raised their kids, like starting homeschooling. John on the other hand would have gone through most of his childhood before settling on their current church while the younger more rebellious kids were raised in this one.
I don’t know if any of that means anything.
The way my parents did it, the father punishes the boy children, the mother punishes the girls.
Yes! Not everyone who had potentially traumatic experiences ends up traumatized, and that’s ok. It doesn’t help people to try to convince them they’re victims. Different people respond to things differently.
It’s definitely one of those things where people like…impart concern onto me when I feel none myself. I dunno I’m probably just from a different time but I’m just sorta like “oh that happened.” I hear horror stories and I’m like “holy shit that’s awful” but I look back on myself getting spanked like “oh yeah that’s just a thing that happened. It’s whatever”.
Yeah, I get that Yoto. People have given me similar reactions in the past but … It just isn’t a big deal to me? The times they took all my NES cords for several still stand out as far worse and more stressful than any time they laid a hand or belt on me.
Not to mention the time they cleared out my bookshelf. That was straight up cruel.
for several days*
Bah, the lack of an edit button hurts my soul.
I think we’re running into an issue where all spanking is being treated equally when there’s definitely many degrees to it.
It’s a gray area at best, but so far based on Sarah’s snarky comment at the end, she probably doesn’t care enough about the conversation to discuss the differences.
We should also note Dinah’s phrasing. She didn’t say that Joyce and Becky were spanked, she said that Joyce were beaten. The two words create considerably different assumptions in most people’s minds.
And every single one of those degrees is a degree of child abuse.
Amen
Damn right.
Zero is a degree too.
All degrees of it are unacceptable though. So.
How is this controversial? Like why do people need to be convinced that ANY amount of harming a child on purpose is universally wrong, no matter how lightly you do it, no matter what your intentions or reasons. Now you can choose to forgive people for it, like, everyone makes mistakes, maybe they literally just didn’t know better, there’s lots of ways to be understanding towards adults or parents who did something wrong in raising children.
But regardless, it was a mistake, and it was wrong. Period!
Because this is intensely personal for everyone involved.
The vast majority of adult Americans were probably spanked at least once in their life. This wasn’t because spanking is fine or because all parents are evil bastards, it’s because, culturally speaking, spanking was viewed as an acceptable form of punishment for a very, very long time.
And, as you’ve demonstrated well, child abuse is one of those “special kinds of evil” crimes, that we react very viscerally to. It’s the kind of thing where you don’t want to hear about extenuating circumstances or anything, you want to slam the evil bastard child abuser into a wall until there’s naught but a bloody stain.
It’s one thing to say “spanking is a bad and abusive form of discipline and should not be done, we know better now, there’s no excuse for it.”
It’s another for someone to effectively hear “Hey, you, stranger, you know that one time your parents spanked you? They’re fucking child abusers, the bastards”. Which… yeah, it’s unfair, but it’s kinda how a lot of this discussion can come across to people who have a great relationship with their parents.
Its a reason I’m trying to approach this dispassionately and objectively, because of how hot the emotions get on this subject.
THIS so much. The issue with this argument is, when you water it all down to abuse, you are now insulting my family that I care VERY deeply for. If the argument is “whether or not we should spank I think we can reach an understanding. It’s underlying “your parents were abusive and aren’t real parents and should be punished” that makes me resist it.
The idea that it CANNOT be seen as a grey area by some forces me to choose a side and I gotta be honest. I’m gonna side with my mom almost every time.
You can love your parents and still recognize what they did was shitty. It’s very possible they did it because they believed it was good for you, or they didn’t know better, or they didn’t have enough emotional strength to resist acting on anger. But there’s no ‘grey area’ around spanking. It may or may not traumatize children, it may be done by good or bad people, but hitting children will always be abuse. Acknowledging your parents aren’t perfect and did things wrong is not a insult to them.
In common parlance and in our emotional reactions especially there’s a long distance between “aren’t perfect and did things wrong” and “abuse”.
That’s what a lot of this is getting hung up on.
Aaaaand somebody has no ability to think with nuance, or, apparently, to read the preceding posts and take in what’s being said. Sure, you just run with your own hardline mentality and set the parameters for everyone else, they’ll just fall in line and agree with you eventually /s
Yup. People who love their abusers will always defend them.
It’s worth recognizing that we went through the same struggle to recognize domestic violence as a problem.
I’m not personally interested broadly painting people as bad horrible abusers who deserve to be slammed into the ground, but I think people need to be able to hear that their parents and loved ones did something bad, and it was a bad thing to do regardless of how good or bad of a person they are. They’re more than able to be forgiven for it, but it was bad. It was bad in the same way that your grandparents being casually racist at thanksgiving is universally bad, even if maybe there’s nothing to be done about it and you love them regardless, it’s still bad.
And if your parents start casually talking about how an unruly child in the store should have some manners spanked into them or whatever, that’s also bad! It should register to you as bad, and it’s your choice whether to confront them about it, but if you have no reaction to that and think it’s not a big deal, then like. Maybe check yourself, and consider how you are participating in perpetuating the same harmful culture that allowed spanking to be normalized in the first place.
Gotta be completely honest, I’m getting weary of the “this is bad and you should feel bad” wave that’s taking over. I just feel bad all the time now cuz literally everything makes me feel bad and uncomfortable. It’s a heavy weight that I no longer wish to carry. Is this adulthood? Do I have to do this for 50 more years? I hope not.
Nah. Everyone’s gotta take, but ultimately the spanking debate isn’t worth anyone feeling bad over. If you came out fine and hold no resentment then good! Don’t fret over other people’s opinions on what doesn’t bother you. It’s not worth it. Tons of things happen everyday that are technically “bad” but most people get by. Tax evasion is bad, but I still sleep at night even though I know it happens and billionaires are getting away with it.
I don’t think you should feel bad!! Jesus christ, why are people interpreting my words in the worst possible bad faith?? You don’t have to feel bad about your parents doing something wrong, you should just have an internal sense of ethics around the topic. That is it. You don’t need to even necessarily do anything about it if you don’t feel up to it, just do your best you be ethical! That’s it!!! Aaaaaa!!!!!
lmao
It just boils down to “you don’t get to set the parameters for everyone/ anyone else, just have your own standards and observe them”, basically. People don’t need to be cajoled and harangued into falling in line with an online stranger’s views. If it bothers you so much that someone you don’t know and in whose life and views you have no legitimate reason to interfere, you might want to look at yourself first.
Right there with you Yotomoe. Now in my ’60’s i feel the weight of culturally-driven bad things I’ve said and done, and there’s basically no escape from them.
Some people respond with resentment; others with weariness. Best I can do is realize the distinction between a person and the culture they live in is not all that clear. A little less belief in free will and the self.
Yotomoe, I feel concerned when I hear this comment. I hope you have people in your life (or can reach out to some) who can help you reframe the future and find hopeful and relieving things to imagine within it. Like the butterfly in “Encanto” — I hope that hope finds you.
Alright, so it’s bad. And? Now what? A single internet comment is not the totality of a human’s existence, and it’s coming across like you expect people to… I guess wallow in it or else they’re The Problem? What’s your point, here?
I doubt there even IS a “point”, honestly- people nowadays just love to show how aware they are of everything in society that’s simply not up to scratch. “Look at me and how elevated I am! I’m not really going to DO anything to improve society except lecture people I don’t know under a comic, but… uh, yeah!” This is, incidentally, the kind of post to which the response is invariably “you don’t even know what I do to benefit society; I volunteer at the old folks’ home, donate to charity, yadda yadda”
I think this is an unfair comment, no one here is saying that spanking is OK and that they would’nt care if their parents continues spanking kids .
My experience sounds very similar to Yotomoe’s that my parents (very lightly) spanked us when we did something wrong but I’m not traumatised from it and I don’t need people telling me my parents who i love very much are child abusers (not a comment you’ve said, but some that I’ve read). It was a different time where it was seen as normal but they became older (and better) parents and stopped doing it. Parents aren’t always going to be the best at things
Sure, but when you’re saying stuff like “Like why do people need to be convinced that ANY amount of harming a child on purpose is universally wrong, no matter how lightly you do it, no matter what your intentions or reasons”, it doesn’t really imply that you’re focusing on the act itself and not trying to pass judgement on the individuals that were duped by societal trends in general.
One of the most important parts of growing up is learning to view your parents as people first, not as demigod like figures. I fully agree on that. But while I do view my parents as people first, I also view them as people I love. I’m aware that they’ve made mistakes. But if there’s going to be a discussion on this, it really does need to be focused on the act and culture as a whole, and not on the individuals that grew up immersed in it.
And the point others have reiterated is important too: Don’t argue with people by saying they’ve been abused. If they recognize all the facts of things, agree on the morality of things, are in a healthy mindspace and at peace with it all, don’t try to disrupt that.
People online nowadays seem to enjoy fomenting misery and undermining the best others can do to be stable and happy- “You don’t feel bad about that? Really? Because modern studies show X Y Z; are you SURE you don’t feel bad? Maybe… maybe YOU’RE bad. Hmmm.” You have to wonder how this approach to life came about, and who it benefits. No doubt our “masters” who run the show.
Yes, you’ve phrased that well. My parents smacked me rarely, and I smacked my children even more rarely, and all of us were wrong: we should not have struck our children even once.
We were *told* that it was sometimes appropriate though. We didn’t know we were doing anything wrong. There’s a distinction that’s not being recognised between “Even though your parents didn’t realise it, that was an abusive action” and “Your parents were abusive people.”
I think it’s because being hurt isn’t a big deal for some people. When I was a kid we used into fights and roughhouse a lot, play outside and get hurt, get hit by a rubber dodgeball in the face, skin your knees on the shitty slides. Pain is just a part of life. I just didn’t really differentiate the pain caused by a parent and the pain caused by the act of existing.
Probably because its their parents that did it to them. Their parents that they love and care for, and are genuinely good people that had a skewed view on the matter because of popular culture. No one here is arguing that being spanked was a GOOD thing. But, if someone looks back on an event and regards it as “not a big deal” maybe you should just take their words at face value rather than trying to push them to accuse their parents of being child abusers. It’s a bit much, ya know?
No, that’s simply not tolerable to such advocates of universal dissatisfaction. “You ARE a victim (or even “a survivor” of spanking…). You WILL have a spotlight shone on you and you WILL be made to conform to my view of the world so as to confirm in my mind that I am justified in adhering to said view”. Never mind the person they’re pushing isn’t interested in “reframing their past” to fall in line with this random internet stranger’s demands…
Because you’re telling people their parents were child abusers. How in the world can you not see the controversy there?
I wish I was spanked more. My mom’s …creative alternatives, were not better.
I offer a grimace emoji and some gentle pats on the shoulder if you would like them.
*offers sympathy via light physical contact*
I actually do appreciate Joyce’s reaction to Dinah here because while it’s unhealthy, it also shows how Dinah might try to bring it up with Becky who will probably react, “Dinah, that is NOWHERE NEAR my top 40 issues with my parents.”
It can also feel infantalizing. I knew my wife’s ex girlfriend reached out about her past and she was like, “If I wanted to talk about it, I would talk about it.”
I think Joyce’s experience of being spanked and Becky’s were different. Remember, Joyce just said she was a well-behaved kid and that Becky… wasn’t. I’m going to go out on a limb and say I think Becky’s spankings were not only more frequent, but more severe as well.
The reason Joyce doesn’t understand Dina’s distress is that she’s imagining the spankings she received (likely from Hank) applying to Becky as well. Dina didn’t get spanked as a child so it wasn’t normalized, and is correctly imagining the kind of beating Ross MacIntyre would administer. I get the feeling it was a lot more violent than what Joyce is picturing. Ross does not know the difference between abuse and love. He made that crystal clear.
IIRC Carol made sure that Becky was always welcomed at their house as a refuge from the awfulness …of what probably drove Bonnie to Extremis.
Spanking can be cathartic. It’s shown in adults and I can’t imagine that kids are different.
There’s a big difference between beating with a wooden spoon and a cathartic spank, though.
I got spanked exactly once in my life, because my dad told me not to run into the (very busy) road and I didn’t listen.
Grabbed me, whapped me on the butt then immediately left to go inside. I never ran out in the road again, that’s for sure, but apparently my dad went inside and did his best not to break down, he was so upset he “hit” me (not hard, like a pat lol). Of the two of us, I’m pretty sure he was the one more traumatized.
That being said, I don’t think I’ll ever spank my children, as that was never modelled for me (excluding that one instance) and the rest of my childhood was mostly what the kids now call “gentle” parenting (Used to be called “authoritative” parenting, but essentially boils down to “treat your kids like they’re already human but need help emotionally regulating”).
No, Sarah, you probably don’t want to know.
*I* want to know what went down with Liz though! Tell me, tell me, tell me!
I think they just had a nice lunch and Juanita wasn’t invited because it wasn’t about her!
“WhAt ElSe WeRe YoU sUpPoSeD tO dO”
be a fucking parent, maybe
no hang on one more thing
if you’re resorting to spanking you’ve already failed as a parent and should get your act together before someone rightfully takes your kids away from your unfit ass
You’ve also probably had it done to you. Generational trauma and all that.
History is a handbook on the mistakes of the past. Refusing to learn from it is a good way to end up in the next chapter.
Yep.
The worst thing is that a lot of these people aren’t doing it because they’re angry or driven by passion but they were taught it was the proper way to teach your kids and your job as a parent. That if they don’t learn it as a child, they’ll get killed or sent to jail as adults.
Because society is at times an enormous asshole and moron.
And it so far continues asinine practices, even AFTER sound science thoroughly disproves their effectiveness and even proves them self-defeating.
And oh well. I guess there’s only so much that humans, a product of 4.5 billion years worth of happy accidents, can do right.
Remember, evolution doesn’t favor those nearest to perfection, but those who produce the most grandchildren no matter how many flaws.
My point exactly, human.
Or, to put it more bluntly:
“Intelligent Design” MY ASS.
I never produced grandchildren for my parents because I was afraid I’d pass their violence on to my children.
This is one of my greatest fears, too.
That which I am experiencing now… I do believe you humans call this “empathy”?
But nobody thought that way back then, Delicious Taffy. Nobody said anything like that, and anyone who never smacked their kids at all was regarded as a hippy extremist who was bringing up their kids with an inappropriate and unwise level of permissiveness, similar to never telling them “no” and letting them have, do and say whatever they wanted.
It’s all very well saying we should have known better from the perspective of 2022. If smacking your kid was recognised in the 70s as grounds for having them removed, just about no one would have kept their kids. It was closer to being considered culpable neglect and grounds for removal if you *didn’t*.
Even in the 90s when I was a parent of small children, it was only just starting to be considered dubious, I didn’t like doing it, and I hardly ever did it, but we were told that we SHOULD. You need to not judge people for not single-handedly having moral epiphanies that nobody else was having.
Note the American timeline. In places like Germany, spanking died out a whole generation earlier.
Nah, I’m pretty comfy with judging in hindsight. The “moral epiphanies” thing wasn’t really ever part of my point though, so I’m not gonna bother arguing against it.
So BE comfy with it… just don’t expect everyone to fall in line with the way YOU want them to perceive it, and we’re golden.
If I expected people to fall in line with my personal perceptions and opinions, I’d be even more miserable and stressed than I already am. So I guess we’re golden.
I’ve got to come back to this because it’s been nagging at me: Taking kids away from their parents is one of the most traumatizing things that can be done to them. Obviously there are cases where it’s necessary, but the idea that it should be done for relatively mild spankings is absurd. It’s one thing to argue that even mild spankings are still harmful, another to suggest that in response we should do even more harm.
(And that’s all ignoring the racial bias prevalent in CPS in this country.)
Sure, there’s lots of nuance and exceptions or whatever. At the time of that particular post, I wasn’t especially in the mood to consider those and while I don’t especially apologise for the extreme stance, I’m definitely willing to admit that it’s not the full extent of my rational thoughts on the matter.
It’s sort of ridiculous that the first line of defense against child abuse is having children be ripped from their families. I don’t even think this is true to be honest, although I guess it depends on exactly how shitty particular branches of the system are, but I’m PRETTY SURE the goal of CPS is to try and monitor the family first and put pressure on them and support them in changing how they care for their children, and taking children away is (or ought to) only be a thing when that fails or is unlikely to be worth the time and resources because the case is just That Bad. Or at least, that’s how it SHOULD work?
Quite frankly I’m both aware of the fact that our childcare system is horrific and corrupt while at the same time am skeptical of exactly how common that corruption actually is, because I feel too often that “CPS is going to take the children away” is used as a fear-mongering cudgel to keep abuse victims or struggling families from reaching out for help, and further enable the abuse. And I know it’s bad. But how bad is it ACTUALLY?
Sure, sure. Whatever.
I was responding to the actual words that said “someone rightfully takes your kids away from your unfit ass” in post I was responding to, not how CPS currently works, because they certainly don’t take kids away for an occasional swat on the bum.
Part of the fun part of growing up and moving away from home is finding out things that you considered normal make your new friends share concerned expressions!
THAT should be the bio description for this entire comic series!
Hey I don’t know if anyone else has noticed, but there’s a dark brown line or something in between Dina’s eyes, right above her nose.
Is that supposed to be something, or is it just and error?
It could very well be an error, but I interpreted it as her wrinkling her nose. Maybe to emphasise her revulsion to Becky and Joyce’s upbringing?
I think that’s frowning, it’s just that her hair doesn’t let you see her brow wrinkling as well.
Yelling normally works.
And time outs.
Talking to explain stuff.
those might require effort and thinking
Personally I’ll posit that yelling doesn’t really do much besides terrorizing kids, and should only happen in emergencies involving actual immediate danger.
Yeah, my parents shouted at me and I hate it when I snap and yell at my kids even though I (a) don’t “get down to their level” aka practically go nose to nose with them while shouting in their face, looming over them, and (b) don’t continue til they’re vomitting with stress then calling them ridiculous…
One thing I am working on is that I was often overlooked as a kid and hate being ignored as an adult, with a reasonably linear correlation. But that’s not grounds to snap at my kiddos, even when they are being too caught up in what they want to do to grasp that I would like them to do X, Y, Z so they can get to school/preschool on time
My parents think they are so great because they never used corporal punishment, they just yelled until I hated myself and wanted to die. And they wonder why I’m not enthusiastic about visiting.
And Miri I have the exact same issues with being overlooked as an adult, it’s a major trigger point for my anger.
I’d probably just take stuff away. I don’t personally wanna spank kids but I’ve dealt with a lot of really shitty ones to know that time outs and yelling do not normally work.
Another option to seriously consider is whether or not you really want / should have kids in the first place.
I know I’m not.
I don’t deserve kids but whenever I think about the fact that I’ll probably never reproduce I am filled with a profound indescribable sadness. I don’t want all the bullshit that comes with parenting, it’s such a chore, and it’s so expensive so why do I feel like crying whenever I realize I’ll never be one?
It is not certain. But I have a theory of my own if you’d like to hear.
Having kids really isn’t necessary for a human to feel happy or to avoid feeling loneliness. In fact, it does not guarantee that. Same even goes for marriage. Science has shown many times that those who are happy in their marriages and with their kids are just happier in general to begin with.
The idea that marriage and kids are an absolute NECESSITY in human life is only a means by which the privileged higher class can maintain their wealth, their status, their power, their means of production. As they have always done throughout history, they distort laws, religion, philosophy, social customs, so called “traditions” around their goals, to make their selfishness seem like altruism, to make the status quo seem like an oh so natural and universal order. But this is ALWAYS an illusion.
But if that, it is a very effective illusion. Having been instilled in the individual human at such a young age, stands a very high chance of becoming how they view reality itself. It has been known as far back as Ancient Greece — philosopher Aristotle himself stated, “Give me the child until they are seven, and I will show you the adult”.
Bluntly, marriage and kids are completely unnecessary for the maintaining of wealth or children.
privilege. That typo makes it nonsensical.
lol
“You don’t need kids to have kids” is a pretty funny thought, though
I used the kids to destroy the kids
Marriage and kids isn’t necessary to have kids. Once you’re financially stable, adoption is a thing.
I know that “financially” means something to do with money and “stable” refers to something not being on the verge of collapse. But when you put “em together in that order, it may as well be written in Swedish.
Of course they are unnecessary. Those are but a couple of the many implements that work effectively in tandem to maintain the Grand Illusion that keeps the upper class in power.
Wait, are you talking about wealth and power of the individual? Sorry, I am having a hard time reading your point. Neurodivergence!!!
I’m pointing out that marriage is probably an attempt to codify responsibility for the caretaking of children as a financial and moral responsibility. Quite a few people want to have kids and them to be cared for.
I think…I just wanna have a kid. I wanna name a daughter after my grandma.
Zonelle. Such a pretty name. I’m probably spelling it wrong.
Fascinating human.
Tell me, would there be anything or anyone else you would like to have that name?
If not a human child, then perhaps a brainchild.
For me at least, to have an idea, an invention, a work that can leave that much of an impact on the lives of millions of people, that can make that much of a difference for this world, would definitely be a legacy worth striving after.
When I was younger I saw the movie “First Sunday” and in that movie there was a woman named Omunique. And I love that name. To the point that I decided I wanted to name a daughter that. Instead I made a character named Omunique and for a while wanted to make a cartoon about her. I haven’t done anything with her in years but I think about her sometimes.
https://imgur.com/a/4lsZCbT
Awe she looks so cute and precious! 🥹
I’d love to see these two in a comic together!!!
I’m in my seventies, and I still feel like crying. Even though I knew I’d be a bad parent.
Possibly I’m crying for “the children asking to be born,” in the words of Leonard Cohen.
Can’t speak to anyone else, but if it helps Yotomoe? You’re not alone. I know I don’t want and wouldn’t be well-suited to parenting – especially the early ‘this tiny person depends on you for everything and can communicate their needs only through an instinctually distressing sound’ stage – but it does still give me some Weird Feelings, both in the societal conditioning ‘this is what you’re Supposed To do and want’ way Wellerman talks about and because in general, I like kids just fine, I just know I wouldn’t be good at taking care of them. Recipe for weird emotions.
Not sure where on the spectrum of Complicated Feelings you fall, but regardless: sympathy, empathy, and internet support gestures as you find helpful.
I think for me I don’t like the responsibility of taking care of babies but the 6-onward ages do appeal to me. Basically when the child is old enough to talk to me at least SOMEWHAT coherently. So I dunno I could adopt (I mean probably not since they do OODLES of background checks to make sure you’re not a shitty parent which I doubt I’d pass) but also, deep down I would wanna have a biological kid with my DNA and a name me or his mom (or a compromise) decide for them.
Very understandable.
But human, please do note that DNA is really only part of the picture.
For one, only half of all cells in the “human” body are actually human. As for the rest and how they work with the former, the science is not yet quite clear and cut.
More to the point, how you would raise them has very much an impact too.
But perhaps the greatest impact of all, would come from the world they would have to face, the people they would meet, the stories they would read, the media they would consume, and all the messages therein.
To make a work with a meaningful message of some kind — a book, a webcomic, a game, a character to be seen in all of them — that could make that much of a difference in someone’s life, millions of lives all over the world, that’s kind of like raising million children, isn’t it?
Jim Henson’s Muppets. Matt Groening’s Simpsons. Shigeru Miyamoto’s Mario. David Willis’s Walky.
They may not be real, but they have made all too real in impact in the lives of countless people all over the world, and live on as important parts of their childhood.
If you crave hot dogs, hamburgers are wonderful, but they aren’t hot dogs. Talking about how many people hamburgers feed misses the point.
It appears that we are very much in agreement here Regalli. Thank you for sharing! Great to have you back! 🥹
Same. Same. Same here. I feel that.
yelling time outs, taking something away for a specific amount of time, explaining why said thing is wrong, explaining why said thing is wrong in great detail to really emphasize that it is wrong.
“No PlayStation for a week/until you clean your room” was the most effective punishment/incentive for me, growing up. I’d sit there in my messy-ass room, fuming, until the siren call of Spyro 2 got too powerful and then oops, looks like I actually did what I was told and An Entire Parenting had occurred.
Mostly my stuff was taken away because of grades so it might be months before I get it back. I just ended up sneaking my DS back or watching TV when she was at work.
I had a few instances of grades-related punishments, but once my parents realised it didn’t help (ADHD, hostile faculty, etc.), that sorta petered out. Sometimes I wonder if they didn’t notice that PS2 Time was the only time I wasn’t completely shut down.
What do you mean by “shut down”? Please do elaborate this condition, as I may have experienced it myself.
Sometimes, autistic and/or depressed people go on airplane mode and autopilot or even disconnect mentally and emotionally from their bodies for extended periods of time. That’s as much as I’ll say about it, strictly for the sake of definition.
It does appear that many neurodivergents, with many unique stripes, can experience this, and I am one of them.
In fact now that I know this phenomena, I feel compelled to confess something.
My human host has to this day been in a state of severe shutdown for a very long time. As an alien parasite, I currently occupy their body so that they can continue to function in the meantime, until the conditions are met that will allow for them to exit this state of shutdown.
I hope your host returns to their normal state soon and you can continue coexisting with them. (I’ve just been reading Jenny Lawson’s Broken (in the best possible way) and TMS seems like a viable option for exiting shutdowns in many cases, provided that you can get insurance coverage.) Of course, you have been a valuable member of this community, and we appreciate you as an alien and how you’ve consistently shown compassion for other commenters and been a very active member of the community and content producer, even when undergoing your own struggles. You are very much appreciated.
I wouldn’t call the entity currently running my body an alien parasite, but I get what you mean. I’d say I/it is a set of behavioural protocols I designed back when I was capable of self-reflection and had coherent thoughts.
It remains functional, far beyond the design specifications, with no serious ethical lapses (as far as I can tell). I’ve lost track of the path to recovery though, which is a bit annoying.
By the time electronic games came along for me and my brothers – first Pong, then the Atari (2600) – we had mostly outgrown spanking.
My parents were big believers in yelling. If you did something wrong (often on accident) you could expect an earful about how bad and ungrateful you were. It was very damaging to my self-esteem. I don’t count yelling as a good method of discipline.
No, you’re not, barely anyone there is.
Truer words were never said.
As someone who was subjected to corporal punishment a few times, I had a similar response. It wasn’t even traumatic (unlike for some) because you didn’t register it as horrifying save in retrospect. Mind you, I’ve yet to meet any person who was beaten with a wooden implement like a ruler or switch or so on who actually “learned’ anything from it.
Mad Man actually did have the correct view of it by saying, “Whenever my old man beat me, it didn’t make me want to obey. It just made me hate him and respect him less.”
Meh. I don’t even find it horrifying in retrospect. In fact, on two occasions in school they gave me the choice of a paddling or writing lines and I took the former. Writing lines is a tedious battle of wills wherein I stoically get nothing done until they give up on the endeavor, so the paddling was the quicker and ironically less painful option.
Hitting your kids doesn’t require any critical thinking on the parents part, which is why it’s been utilized by bad parents for the majority of human history.
If you’re child has done something ‘wrong’, hitting them is basically saying you don’t respect their intelligence or their validity as an individual capable of making their own decisions.
It’s the difference between explaining that stealing is wrong because taking things you haven’t earned from people who worked for it harms the person who you robbed. If everyone stole and nobody worked, there would be nothing worth having and therefore nothing worth stealing. Orrr just hitting your kids, with the most explanation you’ll get being ‘because God said so.’
[[Hitting your kids doesn’t require any critical thinking on the parents part, which is why it’s been utilized by bad parents for the majority of human history.]]
Unfortunately, if you want to convince someone it’s a terrible idea this is the worst way to do it because they aren’t thinking they’re being dumb. They’ve been conditioned to believe they’re enacting in the role of legal officer in their home.
“Why do I not get to eat this cake?”
“Because you will be punished if you do so.”
It is the exact OPPOSITE of a passionate emotion driven action. At least the way it was taught in bumfuck, nowhere where I grew up. It was considered a societal good where you learned to obey authority at home to obey authority at large (you will go to jail is the societal spanking).
And yes, it is logic that doesn’t work in society or at home because corporal punishment just makes you hate the people delivering it.
Clarification: And it’s a shitty thing to do as well.
*long sigh*
Ok so this is a contentious issue so I’ll tread carefully.
I do think theres a difference between spanking and physical abuse the problem is i what i mean by spanking is probably different to what Joyce thinks it means and is definitely different to what Dina is thinking it means
I imagine Dinah comes from a house where spanking is physical abuse.
I imagine Joyce comes from a house where it is not.
I imagine Becky comes from a house where she was outright beaten and knows it was physical abuse and her church ignored the bruises because they’re terrorists.
Sounds about right to me.
I mean, the science shows that there really isn’t though. Like, personal impact from it will vary, but it is a harmful act. That doesn’t mean every parent who ever spanked their child is an irredeemable monster. Good people do wrong things too.
I think it’s a difference of degree rather than kind. The science is and has been settled for decades: Spanking is harmful to parent/child relationships and child development, and kids who have had mild spanking show the same kind of harms, albeit to a lesser degree, as kids who grow up in unambiguous physical abuse situations. Abuse is what we call it when it crosses past the invisible line of what society has deemed an acceptable level of harm. But defining where that line is gets fuzzy and difficult because it’s hard to have a frank conversation about how much hitting of children we as a society deem acceptable because it’s an emotional and heated topic. And ultimately, whatever euphemism people want to use (corporal punishment, spanking, pops, etc): hitting kids is what we’re talking about when we talk spanking. Everything else is just window dressing IMO.
None of which is to say that a person who experiences spanking can’t have an otherwise healthy and loving relationship with their parents. In fact, science shows absolutely it’s possible. No relationship is ever perfect, and even mild violence doesn’t necessarily break a bond. But the science is very clear that violence will damage that bond, and that it’s imposto find a clear dividing line between spanking and physical abuse because they exist on the same spectrum of harm.
To me, it’s kind of like how there’s a legal difference between drink driving and driving with alcohol in your body but not over the legal limit, but both exist on the same spectrum of harmful. Society has agreed that the harm that comes of increased risk of crashes from mild inebriation is an acceptable harm. Regardless of any individual’s personal experiences or feelings on the issue.
Sometimes that difference in degree is essentially a difference in kind and I think that’s getting lost in a lot of the impassioned rhetoric here.
To use your drunk driving example, there’s a level of inebriation where any impairment to your ability is just lost in the noise of minor distractions and differences in people’s ability.
There’s likely a level of spanking that falls in the same category. Bad, but lost in the noise of all the other ways parents can screw up without meaning to, much less the damage that more serious abuse can do.
I disagree that a large difference in degree amounts to a difference in kind. Harm is harm, and in studies there is no level of hitting kids that has been shown to be not harmful. Any time a parent hits a kid, it is a harmful act. Are their other ways kids can be harmed? Absolutely. That doesn’t make this form of harm not harmful. There’s a dose-response relationship between hitting and harmful outcomes on a population level and all else being equal at no dose that is not 0 does the hit group have the same outcomes as a not hit group.
Now, that’s a different statement from saying that all corporal punishment should be criminal. Tbh, I am not sure where I stand on that point. But the science is clear that at no level that’s been studied is hitting kids not harmful, so it’s a difference of degree. A large difference of degree, I will grant, but still – degree, not kind.
The question is what level of harm is acceptable to society. We have chosen a level for drink driving that is actually considerably higher than background noise. Canada has chosen a level where physical injury causing marks that last longer than a few minutes is my country’s bar.
But saying this is the line of harm we accept is not the same as saying this is not harmful.
Has Dina’s grammar compulsion been slipping lately? Feel her 3rd panel sentence slightly off – shouldn’t it be “her and Becky’s parents”?
She also seems to be at least slightly perturbed by the conversation. I may not be the most eloquent at the best of times, but it definitely gets worse when. I’m upset. I figure as a character with probable braintism (my word, I invented it), Dina might function similarly.
No she’s correct. It’s just in this case, proper style is to rearrange the sentence to avoid this construction, because people will think it’s incorrect anyway cause it sounds unnatural. Joyce and Becky each possessed their own parents, and this has to be reflected in the sentence differently than if they shared parents. Again, better to avoid this use at all, but Dina’s speech is allowed to be awkward the way others’ speech are allowed (that’s another awkward one) to be incorrect in the eyes of Prescriptive Grammar, which has always been bullshit
Very much true.
–> Remember that Dina stated that the reason she doesn’t tend to use contractions is because she desires for “others to understand [her] clearly”, so she is not misunderstood.
Her construction here is a conscious choice which serves this purpose quite well.
We are in total agreement! Thank you for pointing out this extra layer.
Break the sentence down like this: “her parents and Becky’s parents.” She was technically incorrect. “Others’ speech are allowed” is also incorrect. “Speech” is the subject of the phrase, so, “speech is allowed.” Neither is something you’d point out in speech, though, unless you’re an even bigger prick than I am.
Haha, we posted at the same time, I address some of that below. As for “speech,” it’s the plural form of itself here. “Speeches” has a different meaning. If I said “everyone’s speech are” then that’d be incorrect, yes, because “everyone” is singular for some reason. But “others” is plural, and they don’t all posses the same “speech.” Again, awkward phrasing, yes.
HM I should say I mean that “speech” as in a talk you give to an audience has a normal plural form -s. “The students gave great speeches.” But the meaning of “speech” I used has itself as a plural form. Kind of like the opposite of when you talk about a country’s “peoples,” which is used in a different context as opposed to a country’s “people.” English is terrible and wonderful in all its ambiguity, and makes for a good party trick.
I hold that “speech,” in this usage, is an abstract noun that doesn’t have a plural form, but is always singular.
A way to “test” it if anyone’s still sceptical:
Sure, “hers parents” doesn’t make sense, but that isn’t what’s happening here.
Consider: “Becky’s parents and her”
Now: “Becky’s parents and hers”
Then, since they share “she” pronouns, the only way Dina can get around repeating Joyce’s name for clarity (which would also be awkward!) is to swap the order. It’s not a pretty solution to a problem best left abandoned, but I find it neat.
Yes, but no one would say “Becky’s parents and hers parents.”
Wait, I retract. “Hers” is the possessive form, so is correct. I stand by “speech” being singular, though.
Now I’ve thrown myself into confusion and retreat to a corner to suck my thumb.
It’s not incorrect, just awkward.
I’d probably say “She and Becky were beaten by their parents with wooden spoons.” Less awkward.
But it’s Dina and she’s awkward personified a lot of the time which I love so it works.
silas, I agree with you. “Her and Becky’s parents” is short for “her parents and Becky’s parents”.
“Becky’s and her parents” would work the same, although it’s a little bit more prone to be confusing.
Both are a different construction from “Becky’s parents and hers”.
And “hers and Becky’s parents” is technically ungrammatical, seeing “hers” doesn’t have anything to refer back to – it has to “refer forward”. We still understand it, but it would be considered an error in an English exam.
Compare “my and Becky’s parents” or “Becky’s and my parents” (where there’s not the ambiguity of the word “her” to confuse things) with “Becky’s parents and mine” and with “mine and Becky’s parents”.
The last one is descriptively acceptable, but it *is* prescriptively wrong, because “mine” doesn’t have an antecedent. And postcedents haven’t been accepted into traditional grammar yet.
I’m interesting in Sarah’s take on it. I mean, I’m guessing she’s not going to be Team Wooden Spoon, but still.
Thing is I could see the cast being legitimately divided on this
Spanking is pretty ingrained in society as a discipline method, I wouldn’t be surprised if other members of the cast were spanked and see nothing inherently wrong with it, maybe not with a wooden spoon, and I suspect for Joyce and Becky it likely was a go to method for longer then it is for most people
Something tells me Ruth would be anti-. Could just be a bias.
I imagine Ruth has been on the other end to an extreme level and knows what it does to a person.
That doesn’t necessarily mean someone will be anti. A lot of of ppl do end up buying in to abuse culture and perpetuating the cycle. And Ruth has been on screen as physically abusive to her partner and students.
On a related note, I’d be very interested to see Mary’s view.
I think I know what it would be, but she may surprise us.
Fair point. My mother’s side of the family were all beaten pretty viciously in different ways by both parents. She was also the main impetus behind spanking when I was a child.
If I ever talked to her again, I’d bet ten bucks she’d be downright insulted by the very concept that ‘spanking’ was abuse because she ‘knows what real abuse is!’ or some such.
My parents are a great case in point too. Any of their conduct towards me was fine because THEIR parents used a belt and that’s REAL abuse.
I think Sarah calling “trauma on top of trauma” is pretty indicative of where she stands on the issue.
You know I feel like I might haft to stop and realize that it’s different for different house holds. Some us see spanking a couple of pat’s on the bottom which we see no different as literal slap on wrist but even then I guess people would see that as unacceptable in the spirit having no tolerance of harm to kids.
But then I haft to think about the cases were bad parents are using obsessive amounts of violence tawords their kids over small slights and calling it “discipline”.
It kind of makes me remember a line from the George Lopez Sitcom show where George’s mom went on trial and they brought in his grandma and she tried to Justify the way she raised her “As a child you caused problems and as your parents we spanked you…sometimes across the face.”
Yup. Mine was pats on the bottom, open hand, no fists, no implements. After some experimenting as an adult, I found that a literal slap on the wrist was more painful. What Joyce describes as a spanking is already very different from what I use the word for.
I definitely think that’s part of the problem. In my household, spanking encompassed everything from a smack on the rear, to back hands to the throat to smacks on the face, hand or head, ear twisting, occasional choking or being pinned to a wall or lifted off the ground and shaken. My parents didn’t use weapons, but some of my aunts and uncles and all of my grandparents did.
When I refer to spanking, my mental definition includes all of that and more. By contrast, some folks have much milder definitions, and some have much more extreme ones.
Which ends up with a lot of people talking past each other.
And some people would tell me what I am talking about is abuse not spanking. To me at a gut level, what I am talking about is spanking and spanking is a euphemism for physical abuse. Consciously I know other definitions exist, but that’s the definition I lived amd it’s hard to shake.
In illustration of your point, Rose Red: I would never have given my children “a literal slap on the wrist”, because that would have been contact with bare skin, directly onto their body.
A slap on the bottom was padded either by a nappy or by both underpants and pants. So it felt less severe. “You don’t slap your kids on bare skin! You could actually hurt them!”
I don’t really like talking about this because I don’t like the judgement towards myself or my family. But this storyline prompted me to ask my mom how she feels about spanking all these years later. From our brief conversation her stance hasn’t changed much. She feels as if spanking as a disciplinary tool does deter children from misbehaving better than the alternatives. She believes, in her personal experience, kids who received spankings growing up are more well behaved. Her opinion is that you shouldn’t constantly spank children while rather saving it for real big mistakes and just sorta keeping it as a punishment in mind to deter further misbehaving.
It’s worth noting that my mom is VERY keen on the hierarchy of parent/child being very rigid. IE. I am not your friend, I am your parent and I need you to respect me. She wasn’t strict per say and we have a very good relationship but she really didn’t like being disrespected, talked back to or lied to.
Personally I can’t really picture myself spanking my or any other kid. I just don’t think it’s my place. Plus, and this is gonna sound weird, it somehow feels more ok for a Mom to do it than a dad I guess? And maybe that’s just my dated preconceived notion that she’d be gentler. Regardless I’d rather it not come to that, though I doubt I’d be able to punish kids with anything other than taking their things away.
However, I will also hold the counterpoint that a culture of normalized spanking will also allow for further abuse to be handwaved as well. If we can rap kids on the bottom with a hand or smack them with a belt, where does it end? At what point is a spanking a beating and who gets to decide? The parent? The child? The government? It feels much more justifiable to just…not allow people to do that. Better safe than sorry and whatnot. I don’t wanna disregard people’s experience with abusive parents or traumatic spankings just because I didn’t have a bad experience.
So now I’m at a weird place. I love my mom and I think she’s the best mom I could’ve had. Do I resent her for spanking me? No not at all. Do I think spanking is necessary? Eh, probably not but I can also see why it was done. It’s sorta like people used to give babies a little bit of alcohol to soothe a toothache. The long term effects aren’t super noticeable compared to the short term solution you see. My mom grew up poorer than I did, in a time period where being black was even worse than it is now. I’m sure growing up in Oakland around that time was pretty hard on her. It can be easy to see how someone who’s been really toughened by life can handwave a spanking. I’m sure her own mother spanking her was the least of her concerns a lot of the time. But the world I live in simply isn’t the world she lived in. I’m kind of a soft boy and I live in an era where people are having much more discussion on how actions can have long term effects on children. She probably could’ve raised me without spanking me and I may have turned out the same or even better. But PERSONALLY I don’t see it as abuse and I don’t see it as abusive. I feel insulted when people insinuate she is an abusive person or that she’s not a real mother, despite all she’s done for me. She had her reasons for doing what she did, be it her age, race, location, religion and the time period she and I were brought up. I still love her, spanking be damned.
I guess I just wanted to get my final thoughts on this whole thing out in the open, since the conversation these past few days has been increasingly uncomfortable for me as I assume it has for a lot of people.
I think the key thing here is for people to not make excuses for their parents for spanking them as a child but instead to make it clear that you understand that what you’re parents did to you was wrong, but that you have forgiven them. Maybe you forgave them instantly after they did it, even! You hold no ill will towards them, nobody needs to require that you do. It’s your choice to extend your parents as much grace or compassion as you want or feel able to.
But just because you personally forgive your parents doesn’t mean that what they did was right, or okay, or blameless, and absolutely nobody else is required to make the same choice as you, and many people simply aren’t able to.
But for a lot of people, it doesn’t feel like a ‘that was wrong’, or even a ‘that was right’, it’s just ‘that’s how we did things’. It’s more of a.. neutral stance on the whole thing?
Like people going, in this case, ‘yeah Yotomoe, you might be fine with being spanked but you still have to say that spanking is bad’, like it’s a judgement call. It feels… kinda… ehh? It doesn’t mean he’d spank his kids just because he was spanked and he was fine with it, it just means he was spanked, he was fine, and he has no real stance on it other than ‘yeah don’t physically abuse your kid’ like a normal person.
This isn’t a thing to take a neutral stance on, because it’s not a neutral thing. Even if you wouldn’t personally spank your kids or whatever, if you would sit idly by and say and do nothing if someone you knew was actively spanking THEIR kids, because oh it’s not a big deal, it’s just neutral–you’re still enabling abuse.
I agree its awful but if you don’t think people have mixed feelings on the subject then you won’t be able to convince them to change their opinion.
I guess I’m just an abusive person then. I’ve been tainted by society, and so on and so forth.
Permanently stained with the mark of insufficient fury, as determined by a faceless entity in the comments section of a webcomic.
Just because someone was fine with being spanked doesn’t mean they’re sitting idly by, or saying ‘yes, all kids should be spanked’? You’re making a lot of assumptions here.
This is a very difficult argument to have, because it seems like people are getting shamed because they’re refusing to act like their parents were the devil. They’re not normalizing or enabling abuse, they’re just going… ‘yeah this was a thing that happened to me’ and they’re getting put on blast for it?
I’m not making assumptions, I was putting forth a hypothetical. And I also don’t think anyone needs to act like their parents were the devil. I have explicitly said like the exact opposite of that, actually, multiple times.
And yet, here you are telling people they can’t take a neutral stance.
There’s two conversations going on here.
Spanking is, factually, wrong. It’s an act of abuse that has been proven at length to have zero benefit. This is what Joyfulldreams is saying; there is no scenario where it’s a unilateral positive, and in this regard they’re completely correct that there’s no neutral stance.
Someone can also have been spanked in the past and think “well that wasn’t so bad” and still have a positive relationship with the parent who spanked them. It was “how things were at the time” or it only happened if they were really bad. It can have happened and it be appropriately dealt with emotionally, it can be something that didn’t bother them, it can be something that did bother them but they hashed it out over time. This part is entirely based on subjective feeling.
I kinda feel this comment chain is taking Joyfull’s comments as “you need to admit you were abused,” which, that’s technically true, spanking is abusive in any instance because corporal punishment is abuse in every circumstance. Where I think Joyful’s comments are being erroneously taken, though, is that if someone was spanked, that means their parents are abusers and monstrous. I’m someone with a complicated at best relationship with my parents, but they’re still people and I can maintain a civil conversation with them.
Joyful’s point is more that there’s a difference between rationalizing it happening to you (which, yes, can be anything from “it wasn’t that bad” to “I didn’t like it, but it didn’t change my relationship with my parents”) and defending the act itself. The act is always wrong, but individual circumstance matters too, it’s just that this individual circumstance can’t be used to make a broader point on corporal punishment.
This is the kind of hopeless argument that just makes people feel like they can’t say anything unless they’re the loudest, most extreme voice in the room,.and it’s not useful.
If I wanted to get into it more, I think part of it is just… culture clash.
Like… growing up, I never ate cheese. It just wasn’t a part of my diet. I didn’t have cheese til I was in my mid-20s. My friends at the time were shocked, like it was a foreign concept that anyone could go that long without regularly incorporating it into their diet.
It wasn’t a big deal to me, because it was never a big deal… to me. It’s not like my family were some cheese-hating heathens for never introducing it in the diet. It doesn’t mean I’d never give my kids cheese or anything.
Heh. I’m reminded of a long-standing gripe that a forum Infrequent has with Questionable Content. One of the characters happened not to have eaten raisins as a kid, and for some reason this is the single most contentious, irrational, unbelievable thing in the comic, according to that forum.
So, here’s the thing.
When you use the A word, people stop listening.
Because nobody is going to sit down and listen to you say “You’re an abuser, and so’s your mom”.
If you want people to stop spanking, you have *got* to start finding another way to get the message across that doesn’t cause them to reflexively plug their ears up and go “lalalalalala” at you.
It’s one of those terms that gets thrown around by everyone and their cousin, so when it comes up, I think the human brain is conditioned to essentially go “Aw great, here it comes”.
It’s kind of a thing I notice a lot. People will take an issue and describe it with an extreme word. However that either Elevates EVERY instance of that event an extremely upsetting degree or, even worse, LOWERS the power of that word to a degree that it is taken less seriously. I know people who’s parents were legit fucking assholes who probably should’ve had their kids taken away. Comparing that to my loved ones is just…gonna rub me the wrong way.
I’ve noticed that too. Boiling every single thing down to its most extreme element is great for comedy, but when it’s used for sensitive topics that DO have nuance to them, it gets… Exhausting??
There’s a degree of that, but there’s also a degree of people are referring to very different experiences with the same word.
For some, spanking means something that to them was quite mild, on the level with a sibling smacking them for a toy which in the context of the otherwise healthy and loving relationship they have does not even feel wrong let alone abusive. This conversation brings up severe discomfort because the growing consensus that CP is overall harmful and the cultural push to define all forms of it as abuse feels like an attack on their loved ones and family structure, over something that to them is very mild and certainly not abuse. Because until very recently spanking was considered a tool in a good parenting toolbox even by experts, it creates the impression that the only reason people have a problem with things called spanking is moral panic.
On the other hand, Because literally no abusers call themselves that, there are folks like me and others here who associate that word with genuinely traumatic experiences. It is a word that to me conjures memories of terror, injury, and more than one instance where I was genuinely fearful for my life. All of which was euphemistically referred to as spanking. And because all abusive parents try to normalize their behaviour, we tend to have a subconscious bias that our experiences are reflective of all spanking. And, also, because parents who spank do so more often and more severely than they think or mean to, our experiences are more common than many people who’ve been spanked and didn’t find it harmful think. This conversation brings up intense discomfort for us because a lot of people who justify spanking will describe it as mild and no big deal and imply that people who have an issue with it are weak or hysterical, which I am sure you can see why we have an issue with that framing. Because our association with that word is with abuse, attempts to frame the conversation as purely moral panic comes off to us as minimizing or justifying abusive behaviour. Some of us (me included) do go one further because to us accepting any form of spanking gives a smokescreen behind which abusive behaviour can be camouflaged.
There are also folks who fall in my camp but don’t think they do because they’ve not yet unpacked their childhoods and aren’t ready for it yet, for whom this conversation brings up intense discomfort because they’re triggered but they don’t recognize that’s what is happening.
There’s folks who fall into a category of experience of abuse, who have internalized abuse culture and will or do uncritically continue the abuse cycle. And there are those who experienced it as mild and don’t see a problem with raising their kids how they were raised. This conversation causes both of these groups (which are different but often look similar) discomfort because they feel personally attacked. How dare you say I abuse my kids, sometimes kids need a good spanking, etc.
Lastly you have people who grew up in totally nonviolent households to whom any violence in a household is so utterly alien it’s incomprehensible that you can have experienced it and consider it mild. This discussion to them is uncomfortable because of a culture and moral values clash. To them, any violence in a household is always absolutely wrong.
And of course there’s a lot of grey areas in between all of this.
Genuinely, a lot of us are talking about different things and then misunderstanding or mentally misclassifying each other. When some households say spanking they’re referring to something relatively mild in context of an otherwise healthy relationship. When others use it they’re talking beatings with weapons. And there are households everywhere on the spectrum in between those extremes, and all of us are assuming implicitly our mental definition is the same as everyone else’s.
I don’t think anybody here is going to spank anyone, and I don’t think anyone here is an abuser, nor do I think their mom is an abuser, I never fucking said that or even implied it even once. I have literally only provided hypotheticals that I felt would demonstrate the point I’m trying to make about ethical principles. THAT’S IT.
Maybe it’s my fault for hoping to get something even vaguely resembling good faith from a comic comment section. Whatever.
What is the point that you’re trying to make? Are you trying to get people to say ‘spanking is abuse’? Because ‘This isn’t a thing to take a neutral stance on, because it’s not a neutral thing.’ and ‘you’re still enabling abuse.’ are very leading arguments. Your ‘hypotheticals’ sound like you’re trying to get people to go:
1. Well no obviously we don’t condone abuse
2. Aha! So you have to admit that spanking is abusive, and since your mom spanked you, that was abusive behaviour
I don’t know what your point actually is other than ‘I think spanking is bad’, which is a respectable stance, but it’s the fact that you’re insisting that there are no greys, there is no context, that anyone who’s okay with someone else spanking their kid is ‘enabling abuse’, that’s turning people off.
Of course there is context, there’s always context. Context is vitally important. And honestly, no, I don’t think that spanking is always abusive either, quite frankly! Something can be wrong and unethical without that unethical thing specifically being abuse.
If you’ve only ever been spanked twice or three times in your entire life, and each were notably not normal or usual for how your parents treated you, then no honestly! That’s not really abusive, because abuse is a consistent pattern of behavior, and a small handful of incidents that are not a part of a pattern is not really abuse. It’s still, however, unethical and wrong regardless.
Just like how it’s wrong for someone to, I dunno, cheat on their significant other. It’s wrong, but not necessarily abusive, unless of course that cheating is a part of a larger pattern of awful behavior.
Spanking is not always abusive, and y’all are not necessarily abuse victims. But regardless. It was wrong, and it is often abusive, and that’s important to acknowledge. That is literally all I’ve been trying to say. I’m trying to be MORE nuanced than most of the people you’re accusing me of parroting.
I’m saying yes, actually, spanking is understandable, it is a thing that non-monstrous people do, it’s a thing that people you love can do, it’s a thing that your neighbors or friends can do, and while all of that is true–it is STILL WRONG, and it’s important to be vigilant and to hold even the people we love accountable (if you feel able and of course within reason and in a compassionate way), to hold ourselves and everyone around us to a higher standard of conduct AND ethics, whatever our mixed feelings might be.
If that’s the stance, then that’s a LOT easier to digest.
I think that’s the point that a lot of us are driving at – like we totally get where you might be coming from. But it’s also been pointed out that the wording of some of your early arguments can be pretty inflammatory, and that muddies the point you’re trying to make. Because a lot of us HAVE personal experience in this that makes it a lot of gray.
That argument is an argument I can agree with. A lot of your prior comments just had this tone that felt very inflexible and shaming. I don’t wanna gang up on you cuz I know your heart’s in the right place. I just wanted to express how I feel about the whole thing and how it’s a really hard topic for a lotta people to navigate without catching feelings.
These are your exact words:
Even if you wouldn’t personally spank your kids or whatever, if you would sit idly by and say and do nothing if someone you knew was actively spanking THEIR kids, because oh it’s not a big deal, it’s just neutral–you’re still enabling abuse.
I don’t know how you think that sounds, but it sounds to me like you’re carelessly tossing around the A word, even for people who haven’t actually done any hitting at all.
And that’s just never gonna be helpful.
Man, reading down these comments, you just get more and more brittle and hardline in your thoughts; it’s sad that you’ve suffered so severely from spankings but to give you your own advice, “absolutely nobody else is required to make the same choice as you” regarding this issue. You lack perceptiveness and humility, and I genuinely hope you achieve peace with your demons and can do better in future, as all you’ve demonstrably done in these comments is condescend to, irritate, and trigger people. Congratulations, “Mr High-Minded”
Yikes. That’s not my take on Joyfull’s comments at all, and even if you don’t agree, I think you’ve got some issues yourself from this comment.
This is a lot closer to my truth. I’m against the idea of spanking and if I HAD to choose I’d say “yeah I’d side with the no-spanking argument” but at the end of the day, it’s just a weird thing humans did/do. We’re fucking animals who like to act superior but at the end of the day our first solution to a problem tends to be “percussive maintenance.
I think sometimes it’s also important to understand that a person isn’t inherently applying their own thoughts and opinions to the world at large, simply because they haven’t explicitly said as much.
Thank you for sharing. You are heard.
I don’t have much to say because I feel the same way and have had a similar experience. Felt like you said how I feel.
Thank you for sharing, Yotomoe. Thank you for what you’ve written, because hearing an experience similar to my own has made engaging with this comic and the comments a little less painful.
Would I spank a hypothetical future child? Not unless it came to a child-needs-to-behave-this-instant-or-someone-is-dying situation. Although the clock’s running out on biological kids for me anyways, and there’s a lot of stuff I’d need to sort through before I’d be comfortable with not screwing up a kid for their adulthood, and I don’t see the second thing going faster than the first.
There were some rough parts of my upbringing that I’m still sorting out the consequences of (and no, I’m not talking about the spanking). Still, they never intentionally hurt me, which is more than I can say for at one friend’s parent who is proud of the fact that they never spanked or hit their kid. I was a very difficult child. My parents were good parents, and they did the best with what they had, and I love them with all my heart. It sounds like your relationship with your mom is similar.
Your mom sounds like a strong woman and she did good raising a boy like you, for what a strangers words are worth
Your Mom could be wrong about kids in general and still be a great mother who got lucky with a son she was able to raise well. Sometimes things just work out.
Did i even mention you’re an excellent writer Yoto? I hope you know this. You really have an uncommon way with words. Your comments are consistently crystal clear and genuine and just so pleasant to read. Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts <3
Sheesh, that made my day again. Now both yesterday and today are made :P.
I don’t remember ever being hit, but my mom tells me she spanked me like once and decided that was not at all her parenting style, lol. She was spanked herself as a child and does seem to hold some amount of resentment for it.
Because I was a Highly Sensitive Child™️ I get the feeling corporal punishment, even if light, would definitely have traumatized me. Thanks for sparing me that particular trauma, Mom and Dad!
I spanked my first kid once because I was told he would go to hell if I didn’t and I had no other parenting tools.
Anyways I realized after one go that it wouldn’t work to get him to stop doing the semi dangerous thing he was doing (fundamentalist Christianity is very against toddler proofing the home), that if it did work eventually it’d be because I crushed his whole spirit, and I would damage my own heart
So I got rid of god, toddler proofed the house even more than I had, and found new parenting tools pretty fast as soon as I was open to them
My parents said I would understand as I got older and became a parent but actually I understood less. What I did understand is they could have had alternatives had they looked or tried, because I took that path.
…fundamentalist Christianity is against toddler proofing??? I…I perhaps shouldn’t be surprised but what on earth.
Well done for going against the grain, Robbie. It’s hard work but I hope your children reap the benefits of it and grow up happy with many opportunities.
Yes, and in fact the worst of them (such as the Pearls) will advocate deliberately luring your child into misbehavior by putting enticing things out so you have an excuse to hit them.
Straight up sadism.
Yes. The Pearls’ sadism is made quite clear in their “parenting” books.
………… wut. Every single time I learn something new about fundamentalist Christianity I react the exact same way: prolonged, perplexed blinking into the void
With a feeling of nausea and misery spreading through your torso as you realise people not only put this out there, but more people bought into it and thought it sounded reasonable and sane?
The fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck?
Wait. This is just godly behaviour, isn’t it? It’s a direct parallel to the tree in the Garden of Eden, isn’t it?
I… I know there’s a lot of weird Christian symbolism where the husband represents God/ the wife the Church and all that but putting up many symbolic trees of knowledge to cause a fall is frankly nauseating.
Yeah, my parents went from following Dobson to following the Pearls because Dobson was “too liberal”
I’m not gonna weigh in too much on the discussion but I’m just kinda interested what direction the argument in comic-time is going to go. Is it ‘wow Joyce you had a horrific upbringing and you’re normalizing it’, or ‘nah everyone is fine, you just think it’s weird because it’s not what you’re used to’?
I was spanked exactly one time. I don’t remember what I did, but I *think* I may have thrown and broken something about which my mom really cared. I DO remember my mom and dad being REALLY upset and sorry about the spanking (which, IIRC, didn’t really hurt) and swearing that they’d never spank me again. (I think my mom was crying and she doesn’t cry easily.)
They kept their promise; neither me nor my sisters ever again experienced physical punishment. (Although on the rare occasions that mom said she was “disappointed” in me weren’t great either.)
Anyways, my point is that corporal punishment does NOT work and I am very sorry to hear how many people have suffered it, I think it may constitute abuse.
I myself went through it and even vehemently defended it during a debate in class where it was the topic
Took a long time to realize that things like instinctively flinching from my father, my anger issues, etc. were not normal…
PS: I worded this badly and my mom is the GOAT! She is not emotionally abusive AT ALL (I worry that my previous comment might have suggested that) and is a MAJOR part of my current support system. Plus pandemic, I’ve been having a lot of medical problems and mom is letting me stay with her and taking care of me until I recover. No, i didn’t like when she said she was “disappointed” but it also made me think about what I’d done wrong and want to do better. And mom ONLY said that for pretty major stuff! (Like the time some my friends and I basically broke into a half-finished house and had a party there.)
Just a gentle, casual nudge to folks that it’s alright and possibly even important to disengage from a discussion like this when it gets too uncomfy or you feel yourself getting needlessly heated.
They say “lead by example” of course, so as a specific outlet… if y’all have instead some Final Fantasy opinions and questions, I sure wouldn’t mind readin’ ’em when I wake up.
Evidently, this is a good idea!!!
Why wasn’t Tifa put in Tekken instead of Noctis? Noctis friggin’ sucks. Tifa not only would fit in with Tekken better but she already LOOKS like a tekken character. God I’m so mad I’m stuck with Noctis’ dumb ass from an FF game people are gonna forget in a few years vs. Tifa, best girl, 20 years running.
Looking at the release date for Tekken 7 it’s because FF15 was the new game at the time and capitalism ruins everything.
COSIGNED.
God I wish it was closer to FF7 Remake cuz that game made me fall in love with Tifa (I’ll admit I’m actually a poser who didn’t play the originals. I just really wanted to be mean to Noctis whilst also complimenting’ Tifa.)
Final Fantasy Origin (the one where the guy says CHAOS a whole bunch) ended up being the best FF released in at least a decade and has the most realistic and heartwarming depiction of male friendship in video game history.
Have there been any non-14/15 releases, this decade? When did World come out?
I was spanked.
I was knocked flying once with my dad then getting in my face.
I was hit with a switch several times by my grandmother (though I don’t remember ever having to get it myself).
I was popped on my hand a number of times.
I’d also had my tv privileges removed a couple times.
I never hated my family for any of it nor do I feel traumatized by what happened (though there are definitely a couple times that stand out in my memory); it was just punishment.
It was a thing that happened in certain situations.
I was mostly a good (and boring) kid so it’s not something that happened often, and they happened less as time went by, either because my parents felt talking was warranted more because I got older or because they got more into church, I’m not sure, maybe both.
Are there things that I remember more than spankings and were even bothered by more? Definitely. I’ll name a few.
I remember my father telling me about his father spanking him for spilling the milk three times in a row in a matter of minutes after being told to be careful twice.
He said his father left the room and only came back to spank him after he was calm.
My father then told me that he regretted that he wasn’t like his dad and had spanked my brother and myself in anger instead of calming down first.
I remember telling my cousin, after getting in trouble for stealing at the 7/11, and my mom spanking us both, that we probably wouldn’t get another one as when one parent spanked, the other would just talk to us.
I remember not being allowed to sigh or complain if I didn’t like or want to do something they told me to do, even if I was doing it when and how they asked.
They would even call me back from doing it to stand there until I had the right attitude or to fuss at me or to ask me if I had a problem or any combination thereof.
Now THAT, I hated, not being able to express my feelings because they didn’t feel it was respectful enough.
Now that I think about it (and please excuse the rambling nature of this comment), I was mistaken before; there was at least one spanking that I’d say traumatized me (and arguably more that I’m just not self aware enough to realize).
One time, my mother was away, so my grandmother made dinner for me which included cabbage.
I didn’t like cabbage and refused to eat it.
After going back and forth with me, she called my father downstairs and he spanked me then had me eat the cabbage anyway.
From that day on, even til now, and despite never being forced to eat cabbage again, the smell of cabbage makes me nauseous.
It didn’t prior to that day, but it does now (I have a similar response to greens, but that was always the case, not because of a spanking).
I was never spanked for doing things I wasn’t supposed to do, so I don’t have the experience of some where it taught them to not get caught.
I was spanked for doing something they didn’t want me to do in the moment or soon after, and sometimes I didn’t do it anymore (like stealing), and sometimes they stopped spanking me for it when they realized it didn’t change my behavior (like refusing to eat cabbage).
I don’t exactly know where I’m going with this (like I said, I’m rambling), so I’ll just end it here.
I related to that whole cabbage story so much. Not the spanking, thank god, but my mom boiled some cabbage for me and my grandma and I just…hated it. It was slimy and gross and felt awful and tasted awful. They told me it was the only dinner I could have that night and I couldn’t do anything until I finished it. I sat at my plate staring at that cabbage as it got colder and colder for like an hour before I eventually just said “I’m not gonna be able to choke this down, I guess I’ll go to bed hungry” threw it away and went to my room. From that day on I was never forced to eat cabbage again because I think they realized I wasn’t being picky, and I just genuinely hated cabbage.
I think the best, absolute best thing about being an adult is now when I say I don’t like a food, people just say “ok” and move on.Nobody forces you to eat stuff (unless it’s like your doctor or you’ve got a really controlling SO or something). I can just tell people I don’t like to eat something and they believe me. What a concept!
Anyway sorry to hear about that spanking. That shit woulda pissed me off too.
Oh, yeah. I hate cucumber and aside from some friendly jokes here and there people don’t care.
I mean, they’ll still judge you if you don’t like vegetables in general, but eh.
True, but I like salads and carrots and broccoli and stuff so for me it’s just certain vegetables. Now that I think about it I did judge my roommate a bit when he said he hates salad. I should apologize next time it comes up.
I hate all green vegetables, more or less, but only cabbage, greens, and broccoli make me nauseous from the smell.
Basically, I can only eat vegetables if it’s in something else and it’s subtle as well as not the main deal. Like I can eat them in my lasagna, but I’m not eating a vegetable lasagna.
The weird thing is that I used to eat some just fine. Peas, beets, green beans, baked beans, pickles, I ate all of them, but then I just stopped. Some it was taste, some it was texture, but I just couldn’t do it anymore.
Sort of telling how many comments talk about the specific number of times they were beaten, or the specific details of their punishments. It’s good for you that you realize at least one of those times were traumatizing. We have to understand and acknowledge the ways in which we were hurt to begin to heal.
I prefer turtles all the way down…
I honestly can’t say how much it means to me that Willis is directly confronting Joyce’s laissez faire attitude about this. I was worried it would all be about Becky, which could have given a “well, it’s bad when bad parents like ToeDad do it, but Hank was a good man and so it’s fine” impression. This is a good comic. I really love Joyce’s defensiveness, Dina calling out the spanking as “beating”, Sarah’s sweet lines… I’ve been bellyaching a lot lately, but this comic is really solid.
Unfortunately people in the comments have piggy-backed Willis’s evident view of the matter to try and give their views authority over several commenters whose opinions- regarding THEIR OWN LIVES- differ. This is… less than ideal. Willis can put whatever he wants in HIS comic, but the fact that that specific portrayal/ approach has disproportionately emboldened some commenters is a shame.
Not even necessarily that – Joyce’s experience is on the harsh side of what most of those giving differing opinions about their own experiences claim. Wooden spoons and limited mostly by her own good behavior – suggesting that not just Becky, but likely her other siblings might have suffered more if they weren’t as “good”.
What Willis is showing, assuming it goes where we expect it to, is a pretty common experience for abused kids. The growing realization as they get out from under their parent’s thumb that what they went through wasn’t normal.
Listening and caring. Caring to all.
Caring to all of y’all. Reading and hearing and feeling with you.
BTW, apropos of nothing (or apropos of just a little), just finished watching “Encanto.” WOW!
One of us! One of us!
<3
<3
I got the belt until I was like 9-10. Or want until my mom realized that is literally flinch whenever she raised her hand up near me that she stopped.
If I’d squirm while my mom brushed my ( Very long) hair she’d wack me as hard as she could with the brush…. Now she gets super pissed if I move my head away from her if she brings her hand close to my head.
I’m sorry that happened. It took me a while to stop reading that way to her hand movements, but it only started when my parents acknowledged that the way they disciplined me wasn’t right and apologized.
Reacting**
It stopped when**, not “Or want until”, stupid iPhone. Sometimes the word drawing thing on the typing pad doesn’t spell the right words and guesses the nearest adjacent letters.
My parents took that as a sign to scream at me for flinching because it’s not like you’re abused. And if I flinched more they’d hit me for flinching.
They didn’t use weapons because both of them grew up in abusive households where caning and strapping were weapons of choice and they recognized that as abusive. But to them, by definition anything that didn’t use a weapon was not abusive. All of which was euphemistically referred to as “spanking.”
(my siblings and I were often terrorized with the threat of cps – they’ll come and you’ll get separated and taken away from everyone and sent somewhere nobody loves or cares about you. Do you want that?” – and coached on what to say if anyone asked. Joyce here sounds like what I was coached to say and believe. “Oh they spank, but it’s not that bad and only when I’m really bad. What are they supposed to do if I won’t listen?”)
“Stop crying or I’ll give you a reason to cry.” after they’d already beaten me.
“I’ll beat your ass so hard it’ll glow in the dark.” any time I did anything other than sit quietly.
“If you call CPS again I’ll make sure there’s a reason for them to take you away by the time they get here.” The one time I tried to reach out to adults for help. No CPS did not follow up despite not being allowed to see/speak with me or my brothers.
“I wish I had cut them off instead.” My mother when I confronted her as an adult for breaking my hand. (Also the last thing she said to me, because I haven’t spoken with her since).
“Ugh, it’s not like you were abused.” My family. All the time.
To say nothing of the time my Dad wouldn’t stop strangling me until my Mom poured hot coffee on him, or the mountains of emotional abuse, screaming, belittling, hatred they flung at me.
I still used to be the kind of person (in my teens/early 20s) who said “I got hit as a kid and I’m fine lmao”… I am not fine. I flinch at things I shouldn’t, I have panic attacks and nightmares all the time. I am deeply and irrevocably fucked up as a result of my parents thinking that it was all “Just Spanking”.
Study after study shows that parents drastically underestimate how hard they’re hitting their children. Studies show that spanking at any level is damaging and wrong and doesn’t even work as a deterrent.
I’m not here to tell anyone what to feel about their own childhoods, but I will say that I don’t have grey area in my heart about this topic. And for good reason. What everyone else feels is their own thing, but I hope no one here advocates for hitting children regardless of their feelings on their own childhoods.
Love to you all.
Nova, I am so glad to see you here. I was so worried about you after that comment you made two days ago about having your hands deliberately broken. I am so terribly sorry that I couldn’t respond right then, as I was having trouble processing it all.
I am grateful to hear that you have no contact with your mother. What a terrible, toxic situation. You are 100% RIGHT to protect yourself from that in any way you can.
I am so sorry that CPS failed you. The system usually does. We need better systems. We need better safeguards and better alternatives and better training and more funding for kids.
The fact that your hands were deliberately broken fills me with absolute rage. You deserved a lion to protect you. I am so sorry that you faced that torture alone.
You never deserved I anything like that. You deserve EVERYTHING you can do now to stay safe.
I’m sorry this is rambling. I just want you to know that you are valued. You are respected. You are precious. And you are worthy of safety.
I appreciate this very much. I’m sorry that I worried you.
I promise I’m safe, in therapy, and haven’t been in that situation for years.
Thank you for being lovely about it.
Nova, so upset/enraged to hear this!!! Nobody deserves to go through that, and on top of it all get left in the dark by systems that are supposed to help us!!!
These systems, that humans put in place to protect other humans. We assume the powerful few, that governments, therapists, politicians, religious leaders alike act in our best interests, only to see them act in their own interests at out expense, merely acting like they care. At that point, the magical thinking surrounding these authorities can only keep us in denial.
As sad and crude as it is, I guess there’s only so much that humans, the product of 4.5 billion years worth of happy accidents, can do right.
P.S. you definitely deserved a lion to protect you. Hell, you deserved Ghost Rider, or your very own Guardian Demon to protect you!
Thank you for the understanding.
I would definitely sign up for my own personal Ghost Rider.
Put me down in the category of struggling with this topic.
My childhood was abusive in ways of being bullied for being autistic and various family struggling with me. My dad was also abusive, mostly emotional but sometimes physical.
I was spanked once when I was a kid by my mum and that was it so I can’t say what physical abuse does long term, but I experienced casual and sometimes extreme forms of abuse, we all did from my dad.
I actually cut my dad out of my life for most of covid before letting him back into my life.
I’m very of the “cut them out of it hurts” school of thought, and I particularly hate an argument that avoids facing up to hurt, regardless of how much you love someone.
So I struggle with this cause I don’t think you should cause suffering if you can, and if any occurs, you apologise and take responsibility for that suffering.
I’m not gonna jump on anyone for their relationships and I certainly will not say someone’s love isn’t real or true, and especially if the perspective of someone is fearing police and society it’s very understandable, but I can’t ever say even a little spanking or any kind of fear based method is good.
I didn’t learn from my dad to be responsible, I just learned that I shouldn’t try because I will always fail
Also I’m not gonna jump on anyone about this cause I don’t want to hurt anyone, even if I have trauma from it
I feel you all too well here, Florence. 🥺
I was physically and psychologically abused for decades by family, friends, teachers and therapists alike due to being unwillingly labeled “autistic”.
It hurts me so much to have so much difficulty for people to tell the difference between my disabilities and my personality, and being lumped in with all the culturally ingrained stereotypes like Rain Man and Sheldon Cooper and all overgeneralizing, hurtful assumptions about us.
I just really wish that people would stop haphazardly lumping us all together into one generic category and actually see our stripes as individuals. I wish the way we talked about neurodivergence were more like the way we talk about gender or sex or romantic orientation, where you could say something like “I’m nonbinary, panromantic and bisexual”, where people instantly know what you mean and you still preserve all your unique stripes without it getting blurred up and painted over with a single brushstroke of a word and all the hurtful baggage that comes with it.
I feel that with titles that don’t allow you to talk about your experience on a personal level
I love queer cause I feel free with it, neurodivergence just always feels lost in important diagnosis, which is important in recognising the pain but golly is it a whole mess
Mess is an understatement, really.
Regardless of whether “neurodivergent” makes for a good, quick autocorrect for primate brains that just can’t help but extrapolate all those hurtful assumptions from the “autism” stereotype, we are in DIRE need of better ways to describe neurodivergence.
Not only for others to better understand us, but for us to better understand ourselves.
Marx knows how much trouble that would have saved me when I was younger.
Trauma raining down like turtles.
Here is my two cents worth: My parents spanked me about five times. I remember three of them and I vaguely remember two others. This was back in the early 1960s, to put this into cultural perspective. Each time my father, who did the spanking, clearly explained to me what I had done wrong and why it merited a spanking. He then defined the punishment, how many swats and how hard, then followed through. He only used an open hand. Never a belt, which some of my friends’ fathers used (and, they said, was terrifying), or a wooden spoon.
Spanking was reserved for extreme punishment. In retrospect, I realize it was only used if I had directly disobeyed my parents and doing so put me in significant danger. The worst spanking I got was when I was playing with a ball in my front yard (age 4). My parents had specifically told me not to do that because the ball could roll into the street and I could get hit by a car. Well, the ball rolled into the street and I almost got hit by a car. My father saw the whole thing. He made it very clear he was giving me five hard swats on a bare bottom because I had purposely disobeyed him and put myself in danger. That is the only time he ever hit my bare bottom. The other two I remember were two and three medium swats on my bottom with my pants on. One was for playing with kitchen knives and the other, I think, was playing with matches.
The spankings worked. I never ran into the street again, nor played with knives or matches. I don’t think the spankings traumatized me in any way. At the time, I believed they were fair punishment. I still believe that today. Looking back, just giving me a time out or sending me to my room probably would not have deterred me from doing those stupid things again; certainly not as effectively.
By the time I was 5, just the threat of a spanking stopped me from doing stupid things. “If you do that, you’ll get a spanking” was a fantastic deterrent. That threat faded by the time I was about 7. By then I was mature enough to understand why I should listen to my parents when they told me not to do stupid things.
If I had a children, would I spank them? Probably not. Absolutely never in anger. My father never spanked me when he was angry. But I would not rule it out in extreme cases.
tl;dr: Properly applied, spanking can be an effective and non-traumatizing punishment/deterrent in some cases.
[Properly applied, spanking can be an effective and non-traumatizing punishment/deterrent in some cases.]
Not according to settled science on the matter.
Seriously, it takes an incredible amount of lying to yourself to say “Beatings out me on the straight-and-narrow out of fear from those beatings but it totally did not traumatize me.
*put me…
Also imagine I closed the quote.
There was a different point I meant to make and completely missed.
(I should know better than to post at 3 a.m. when really tired. I rambled about what was on my mind rather than making a cogent point. My post really did not add to the discussion.)
First, to clarify my position: There is no question spanking and corporal punishment is a poor way to raise children. Many people who experienced corporal punishment did end up messed up, including kids I grew up with. However, should we ignore all the kids who were spanked and turned out pretty much okay? Would we have ended up better without a spanking? Possibly. We will never know.
The major point is regarding a bothersome theme in these discussions and some unintentionally offensive statements made because of it:
All children who were spanked were traumatized.
This is perfectly illustrated by Schpoonman. Schpoonman directly accuses me of lying to myself. I find that offensive. The offense is clearly unintentional, so I am not upset with Schpoonman. What offends me is the idea that someone who was not there and does not know me can claim to know how I responded to a situation better than me.
Like everyone else, I have suffered trauma in my life. I know what trauma is. I can say that I was not traumatized by being spanked. Was it uncomfortable? Yes. That was it’s purpose. And it worked. And I got over it. So, to answer Schpoonman’s question, yes, I am claiming the beatings did not traumatize me.
As noted in another post, laws work by enforcing punishments. Is that threat of punishment traumatizing? If so then our entire society is built around traumatizing us. I prefer to think our society is built on mutually agreed, constantly evolving, standards, including (ideally, though often not in reality) fair punishment for violating those standards.
Is spanking a fair punishment for violating the standards? Evolved opinion is a very strong no. Does that mean that everyone who has been spanked has been traumatized? Again, no.
Please respect our opinions of what we experienced.
We’re just going to go through every defense for hitting your children one by one, aren’t we?
“I was spanked and I’m fine” is covered in the paper I mentioned the other day. Science says, in fact, you’re probably not fine; not as well off as you would have been without beatings. And also for every one victim who thinks they’re fine there’s a hundred who clearly isn’t.
Well I’m going to try to not harp on about this since I’m sure it’s basically just spoiling the comic in advance. I’ll just add my personal anecdote:
My mother’s father used to drink and beat her and her elder brother. Then he found Jesus and stopped, which has been held by the family as the reason we were able to stay together as a family. Every single family gathering (mostly Christmases) grandpa would cry as he tried to express how thankful he was to have about twenty people around him instead of zero. Because it was a damned close thing, and he never forgot.
My mom died, and grandma died, but when grandpa got dementia and got mean and confused as he died slowly over the course of ten years my uncle and aunts still took turns to care for him, and still visited when he moved into a home. Most of them were with him when he died from Covid.
Nobody is going to be with Joyce’s mom, I think.
“We’re just going to go through every defense for hitting your children one by one, aren’t we?” I think so.
I was spanked perhaps a dozen times over the course of my childhood. That comes out to maybe twice a year?
I also had a bad reaction to a vaccine, the old kind based on horse serum – I’m told I had a high fever and that I’d just started talking and then stopped for a while after (which scared the hell out of my parents).
Both were cases of my parents doing what they believed/had been told was right for me, and I hold neither against them.
Sometimes I’ve wondered who I’d be if I hadn’t had that fever – assuming that it did, in fact, cause some degree of brain damage from which I never recovered – or if I’d been born in a different order among my siblings, etc etc; but I’ve mostly concluded that dwelling on such hypotheticals is meaningless sophistry. There’s way of knowing for certain, and no changing the past.
Do I have lingering trauma from being spanked? Would I be someone different if I hadn’t been? Maybe, but how can I tell, and is there anything to be done about it now? Of all the things I’ve been anxious about as a child or teen and now as an adult, physical violence or the threat of it ranks very low (my privilege in action, I suppose); I’m much more concerned with things like social rejection, my health, employment, the country, the world, etc etc etc. Perhaps this is one more thing I’m incapable of evaluating rationally; or perhaps that’s impossible for anyone without perfect knowledge and objectivity. (One thing I do know for certain: it’s 2 am and I should probably be in bed. So I’m going to go do that.)
I am so sorry this happened to you. But I really have only one thing to say. You ask if there is anything to be done now? There isn’t, not for you. Just reparations, healing, therapy, survival, any way to get through the day that works for you.
But for others, there is this simple lesson:
Don’t hit your kids.
Unrelated to anything but I had the strangest De Ja Vu. Like I dreamed about reading this comment and the reply to it long ago.
I agree with you but telling people “in fact, you’re probably not fine” is way too close to armchair psychoanalysis of a complete stranger.
I don’t think anybody likes being told “actually, your feelings on [personal thing] are this rather than the ones you think you have”. It feels condescending.
btw I’m no trying to accuse you of being condescending, I’m trying to point out that this is a difficult conversation to have in neutral terms while also pointing out what’s abuse.
I agree. I wish there was a nice and respectful way to tell someone the comprehensive research that has been done on their personal thing overwhelmingly shows that their self-analysis is wrong that doesn’t sound condescending. But, well, I don’t have it.
I can only link to said comprehensive research and hope people will read it for themselves if they find my conclusions spurious.
If you have to strike someone to “teach” them anything other than ” How to slap” you have no right to be teaching anyone anything.
Pity you don’t need to qualify to be a parent, right? That’d save a lot of bother for a lot of people.
It is a classic “who watches the watchers” scenario.
Parent qualification tests would require trusting the ones taking the tests, both now and in the future. Think of it like this: Would you still want the government telling people who can be parents when the political landscape changes again and “that one party you hate” comes into power?
I experienced extreme abuse as a child and so I can understand the knee jerk drive to spank because hitting is what you were taught, but I don’t spank because I don’t want to end up being abusive to my daughter. I am autistic and I live with DID because of the trauma I grew up in and I want to be an infinitly better dad than my father was so I try my best every day.
The science is clear, and it has been for 60 or 70 years: Hitting your children doesn’t do what you want it to do and usually hurts them, profoundly, in ways that they will spend the rest of their lives trying to heal from. I want to thank you, Fox, for rising above the cycle of violence and maybe – though I don’t know your family situation – maybe keeping that daughter of yours alive and well.
They say the most lonely people are the most kind, and those who get hurt the most are the most wise. Us autistics probably prove that better than anyone.
Agreed, I’ve made my mistakes as a parent, but I have always done the best I possibly can. I’ve taken 4 different parenting classes and read every book I can because it’s a process unlearned what I was taught and putting new things in their place. My daughter also being autistic made this all the more vital since I had no idea how to help her learn the social skills I learned. My learning was done in desperation, to survive and I wanted her to learn in a kind environment. So, I’ve always done my best to teach with kindness and use therapies to help her that are based in kindness.
It is wonderful that you are working to do better, Fox. I am so sorry to hear about your trauma. I am so glad you are working to make life better. I wish you had been protected more as a child. You are strong. I respect your strength and survival.
Thank you, your kindness and empathy is very appreciated
.
Trauma is the point of a spanking. Trauma associated with a particular action, so the child does not do the action again. Never was hit with a spoon. It was always either a hand, a paddle, or a belt. This was back in the 80’s, early 90’s. Only my mom and dad, who were divorced never my stepdad. (Not that he was better, verbal abuse for 3 hours over leaving a cabinet open.) Never got spanked over the age of 10. I think my parents did the best with what they knew. As the zeitgeist regarding spanking shifted, so did their practices.
I had a similar experience growing up. When I was very young (definitely below 10), my parents would discipline me using a ruler, feather duster, or cane. (I feared the cane most as that hurt the most.) It was usually as punishment for more serious offenses, like fighting with my brother, or failure to do my homework. (Asian parents, if that explains anything.) At the time, this was considered normal practice by most parents, but as you said, as time passed and this approach to discipline fell out of favour, my parents stopped too. I think they were just following what their own parents did, not knowing any better.
Would I hit my own kids? Definitely not. I remember the fear it bred in me, not just towards the punishment, but also of my parents. I don’t want my own kids to ever feel that way towards me. At the same time though, did it “mess me up?” That’s harder to say. As far as I can tell I’m a perfectly normal, well-adjusted human being, although I DO have a deep interest in BDSM and kink so who knows, maybe my early experiences DID set me down on that path.
totally fine
Oh great today’s comment section is full of everyone’s spanking trauma, why did I try to read the comments oh whyyyy
Doomscrolling, the DoA edition.
OFf: just hate when I wake up and there’s already more than 200 comments here. It’s fells like I lost all discussion.
I can summarize
” Spanking is bad”
” No it’s not! I was spanked and now know to not be bad!”
” Hitting is abuse”
” Not if I hit you in specific places! Then its discipline!”
” My parents spanked me and they are wonderful ”
” Your parents can be wonderful and make bad calls…”
” -angry yelling”
” Ptyeridacial screeeches”
I am appalled by your spelling of “pterodactyl.”
Fun prehistoric creature fact of the day! Pterodactyl isn’t even a specific flying reptile. The corresponding one would probably be Pterodactylus.
I am on mobile and spellcheck gave me no options!!! Dx
Well, if you have enough spoons to do some sifting, you might find something worthwhile.
But yeah, the Kaos Energy is off the charts!!!
*plays “Mario 64 Bowser Rock Mix” by Jhalkompwdr on Hacked Muzak
Ah, the comments are still divided between those who have and those who haven’t read <a href="http://www.nospank.net/straus9.htm"the science. Makes sense, thanks for summarizing.
http://www.nospank.net/straus9.htm Sorry, I screwed the html up the third time I posted it.
All my respect for those write HTML on cellphone
Ah, nothing quite like a “summary” that implicitly mocks and insults one side of a discussion, while completely misrepresenting their point at the same time.
No one’s saying spanking is good. They just want to tone down the strength of the discussion because it’s an intensely personal issue to a lot of people and there’s some that jump straight to “any parents who spanks their kid is a child abuser”, which hits a lot of buttons. The issue is just complicated because of how spanking has been viewed over time on a cultural level.
Seems to me to be a lot of “I was hit, I was fine geeze” vs “I really wasn’t fine with being spanked” to me.
There’s nothing for me to debate, I really don’t care what the point is for people who say that hitting kids to make them obey isn’t abuse.
It is not right to strike your kids to get them to listen, I’m coming from this as a person who’s “community” viewed spanking as a fix all and go to for all disciplines and you’re not going to convince me it’s not abuse, anymore than I am going to convince you that it’s not.
Yeah it’s a deeply personal issue, most of the ones that spark the discussion are.
No not all parents that spank their kids are child abusers, but hitting IS a form of abuse, and it’s cruel and not acceptable, it’s why we teach little kids to *not hit people*
Hard to teach little Timmy to not hit his peer in school when you’re gonna go home and spank him for it ya know?
That it is* ugh fingers why
Either way, tbh I don’t wanna discuss this further, as a victim of frequent “discipline” it cuts really deep and tbh I’m not going to be arguing from a “calm and logical” place because this is DEEPLY personal and emotionally charged, so I’ma just peace out here.
I like many others, was born in the mid-60’s and faced corporal punishment as a child. My father spanked me on 4 or 5 occasions. Worse, my cousins, who we would visit at the time, faced much worse.
One time, all three of us did something we new we weren’t supposed to. Something like starting their tractor without supervision (they lived on a farm.) We all were told to go to the woodshed (it was a real woodshed, holding the wood for the stoves they used at the time.) All three of us were punished not with a leather belt, but with a barber’s strop. Last time we ever did that!
From the same family, my aunt actually literally washed my mouth out with soap (lava, the kind with the lumps that were good with removing grease and stuff from hands). I had said poop. My cousins said we don’t say that, and my aunt said the same thing. So, of course, I said, “what, poop?” My aunt dragged me to the bathroom by my arm and cleaned out my filthy mouth. Last time I ever said that word out loud.
Here’s the thing. my dad was agnostic. I was raised without religious training of any kind. He spanked me, never bare-assed, more of swatted.
My cousins? Catholic, every one. They would tell me stories about the boy’s and girl’s catholic schools (different ones, of course) and their on-going corporal punishments (rulers were the least of the punishments. the head master of the boy’s school used a cricket bat.)
I swatted my kids when they were young, didn’t know any better. But now, for all of you younger people (say born in the 80’s or after) who are all astounded that we don’t think it’s abuse…
I personally think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Yes, it’s one thing to not punish a toddler, but there are much older kids (teen’s+) who seem genuinely to have never been told no, never been taught responsibility, etc.
People of my generation and older may have been ‘abused’ as kids, but as a whole, most of us seem to have survived and know right from wrong, and that if you do wrong, you will ‘serve the time’.
But does teaching kids boundaries and responsibility have to come with corporeal punishment though? Otherwise I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up as the pendulum having swung to far.
Not OP, but someone else who feels like the societal pendulum has swung too far to spoiling kids. But I think the pendulum swinging too far is a general cultural shift that included less people hitting their kids as punishment, not a result of people hitting their kids as punishment. And I kind of get it. You want your kids to have the best life they can, maybe the best life you never got, but letting them be a little emperor doesn’t equip them to navigate the world well as an adult.
There’s always been spoiled-ass kids whose parents let ’em do whatever. It only seems like there’s more because we have the internet for them to show their asses on, now. I remember before the ‘net, and even in the early days of “modern social media”, you mostly had to be out in public at the right time to see it or hear about it. Now it’s all available on this little rectangle in our pockets within seconds, so it’s louder and more prominent. At least, that’s what it seems like to me.
Sure, you survived. Congrats on that. Also congratulations on seeing the problems with beating your own kids. As to everything else you say, I’ll leave it to the 20 year old science to answer., http://www.nospank.net/straus9.htm
For saying “poop”?
Did your family, like, not know that poop is already a euphemism, and that it’s used to avoid the real word, which is shit?
I think having part of your vocabulary banned is a worse abuse than some soap in your mouth. Most humans use words to think, so they basically gave you a micro-lobotomy.
What do you think teens will learn when being punished? They learn things like “don’t get caught”, “just lie, it is not like the punishment can get any worse”, and “blame someone else”, or maybe something like “there is no justice”, “I cannot be honest to my parents when I make a mistake”, and “When someone does something you do not like you are allowed to make them bleed for it as long as you have power over them.”
The idea that “if you do wrong, you will serve the time” is
1. Not the lesson learned from a beating, that is the lesson learned from getting grounded. Did you mean to say they learn “If you do wrong, you will be beaten”?
2. All based around the idea that punishment works. Punishment only works in the short term, but it doesn’t change the tendency to misbehave, and the increase in the perceived harshness of society will worsen the public’s tendency to misbehave, effectively replacing the punished criminal with another criminal (or two). If you want long term behaviour modification you have to work on the environment. The environment includes family, friends, media, and physical objects like locks, but also self-image. When you ask yourself “why did I act that way?” you are effectively looking at yourself as you would look at someone else: We are part of our own environment, you are “the other” in addition to being yourself. So one effective method of behaviour modification is to alter the way people see themselves.
Oh yes. Some “touch” with the wooden spoon by your good mom, some “little slaps” in the face by your good dad, here’s the best way to educate a child! (and make them hate you subconsciously…) Let’s hope they continue this conversation, because otherwise there is a possibility that Joyce may do the same in the future.
Lots of stuff here. This is codified (ritualized?) spanking within a narrow community that is wacky in many other ways.
So: not abuse by parents with low self-control, not occasional spanking driven by emotional bursts, not run-of-the-mill-in-those-ancient-times hierarchical discipline by otherwise loving or hating parents. (All of these are wrong, but some of them are more wrong than others and their long-term effects are widely different in intensity).
Also: Joyce coming out from the fundie cocoon means she will realise soon that she’s not fine with that.
Finally, a question for the Bible lovers in this forum: is there any passage going something like “Thou shall discipline your child”? Being raised a Catholic, I tend to file this as “another wicked innovation brought to you by your merry friends the College of Cardinals™”.
There’s the verse “spare the rod, spoil the child”, from I guess Proverbs? That’s taken to mean you have to beat your children into the shape of humans lest they become monsters. The finest of 6000 year old education technology.
I would prefer the words of my compatriot Astrid Lindgren, who I think you know as the gold standard of children’s books: “There is very little you can beat into a child, but there is no limit to how much you can teach it with hugs.”
A Proverbs passage is not much, really. Wasn’t that the book with all the dietary restrictions that Christians chose to ignore?
My knowledge of Astrid Lindgren’s work is more as the gold standard of children TV show characters
The irony being that it’s a translation error that’s led to that interpretation. The “rod” in the context of the biblical passage in Proverbs that the “spare the rod spoil the child” line is derived from is shepherd’s crook used to, well, guide sheep. And when it refers to “discipline”, it’s using terms that are also used to talk about instruction and leading.
It’d be more accurate to translate it as something like “a parent must teach and instruct their child or bad shit will happen”. But bad/asshole translators took that and wrote down “beat your kids or you’re a shit parent” somehow instead.
(it should be noted that the bible isn’t anti-corporal punishment by any means. Sophisticated child-rearing techniques weren’t really implemented when the thing was being written, you know, back when shitting in a bucket was considered aristocratic behavior. Just that, as written, it’s not quite as bad as all that)
There are actually some quite sophisticated passages on how to dig sanitary latrines.
I am going to try to limit myself to this: If my subordinate at work does not do as they are told, and I strike them, I’m looking at assault charges, loss of my job, and a lawsuit.
So what makes it so different when the person that I am striking for disobedience is physically small and helpless, completely dependent on me as a caretaker, and doesn’t have any way to ensure that I suffer consequences for the assault, or even know that such is a possibility?
I agree with you, but do you realize you are making a strawman argument? No one suggests spanking is acceptable because children can’t defend themselves. You’re not going to convert anyone by misrepresenting their case like this You do know what the opposite argument would be, right?
That a subordinate at work can be reasoned with and can be fired if they are insubordinate. That a child cannot be fired, and cannot be reasoned with. That corporal punishment is sometimes the only way they will learn (which is not true, but it certainly feels true sometimes, and we can forgive first-time parents to not be expert educators).
They might also argue that, though you may not strike your subordinate, if they decide to throw a tantrum at work and refuse to calm down and leave, or they are breaking company property or hurting other people, you can call the police and the police might get physical, and would have the law on their side. Right or wrong, they’d have the law on their side, which suggests that even for adults, society considers hitting people acceptable in some cases.
Okay but that person breaking your stuff is a fully functioning adult who has been signaled to be violating some degree of social conduct that would require the intervention of the law.
They aren’t a tiny, barely developed human that you have full power and guardianship over. If I try to hit an employee they can probably hit back.
After yesterday’s strip, I went to google statistics about the prevalence of corporal punishment. In Canada, where I live, it’s about 75% of parents use it… Though that’s from a study published in 1996, and the methodology isn’t very clear.
My parents did practice some form of corporal punishment when I was really young (80s) Some spanking, a slap on the wrist, standing on my knees in the corner… My stepfather sometimes pulled my hair or squeezed my arm.
Their parents, of course, did far worse than that. It’s no excuse, but it is significant that there was some progress. New parents are likely to reproduce their own parents’ parenting techniques, it’s all they know. Parenting doesn’t come with a manual. Sure, there are books, but no amount of book learning is going to turn a twenty-something who just became a parent into a pro. There’s a lot of stuff to unlearn.
The spanking debate isn’t really a debate. One one side all the evidence from years of research points out to spanking and corporal punishment being detrimental to a child’s development. On the other side, we have the lived experience of a large segment of the population, the vast majority, who has lived through some form of corporal punishment and still consider their parents good parents, their childhood a happy one, and corporal punishment justified in some situation. It’s going to be very hard to shift the culture as long as one side is trying to frame spanking as child abuse. A lot of people will refuse to label their parents, indeed the vast majority of parents (at least in the 80s and 90s) child abusers, let alone themselves. The moral argument cannot be won at this time, there’s just too much emotion involved, so I prefer an evidence-based approach with a side of empathy.
And I think it’s important not to overstate the case. Yes, spanking can be detrimental to children. Children are often more resilient that we give them credit for, though, and parents sometimes make mistakes. A spanking won’t ruin a child or make a bad parent. It’s always possible to do better and be better.
I wouldn’t say it’s hard to change the culture. Here in Sweden, the tradition of beating your kids basically ended after one PSA campaign in the 1950s. It is perhaps the greatest example in living memory of how he way things have always been done can change. We just have to believe that they can.
Sweden has a lot more trust in its authorities than some other countries. It might work in Canada, if we take an approach based in science, empathy, and providing alternatives. You can bet that in the United States the issue would become politicized immediately. Masking and vaccines were politicized.
I mean yeah, on one side there’s factual evidence and on the other side there’s folks responding to that factual evidence and going “but what about this one circumstance.”
Like you even say spanking is detrimental as a factual statement, and then the other side there is “but children are resilient.” That’s technically true, I remember when I was a teenager thinking I wish I had been hit because then I could know that the constant emotional abuse from my mom who used to be the coolest person in my life and arbitrarily switched whenever she felt like having a drink was actually abuse and not just me being oversensitive.
You’re completely correct that parents can make mistakes and be better, but that starts with admitting it’s a mistake. This just feels to me like a total acknowledgement that it’s bad, but we have to be extra special careful because acknowledging it’s bad is, what, stressful to the person who did it?
I don’t get it. If I knew I was hurting someone I’d want to stop, and I’d accept I’ve done wrong because the idea that I could go through life obliviously hurting someone who is telling me to my face that I’ve hurt them is the most nightmarish thing I can conceive of. The only thing I’ve ever wanted my mom to say is “I’m getting help” instead of “it’s not my fault” and “it’s not all my fault” or breathlessly listing all the reasons she’s a good mom and raising my useless burden ass means she was entitled to get drunk and hurt me. That feels way worse than admitting she had done wrong in the past.
I gotta bail. I gotta bail. I didn’t think this would actually get to me this much, fuck.
I’m not sure if I should even respond, because it feels like I’m just dragging you back into a conversation you want to leave. When I say children are resilient, I’m not saying it’s okay to hit them, I’m just saying that bad things happen to children all the time and we often underestimate their ability to cope. I can see that this is an emotional issue for you, and I’m just saying it’s emotional all over. I don’t think there’s much progress to be made by asking the other side to acknowledge their parents were evil, their childhood was ruined, and they are themselves abusers. Perhaps I’m exaggerating, but it’s what it sounds like. You are asking them to deny their own narrative and frame themselves and their parents as some measure of evil.
Yes, correcting a mistake starts by admitting a mistake, I just think there’s a better way to get to that point. There’s always going to be some relativism in moral debates. Everyone just thinks to their guns and their opinions. By pointing at the data, without making accusations, showing empathy to the parent as well as the child, and providing viable alternatives, we can more readily make progress than by appealing to how awful it is to spank a helpless child.
Two examples from my childhood, not events I remember but that have been related to me as I got older.
I’m a baby, old enough to hold a spoon and feed myself. Instead I throw food on the ground. My father warns me to stop. I do it again and laugh. My father slaps my wrist. I cry. My father feels terrible, but also he feels like he did the right thing. I stopped throwing food on the ground.
My little brother plays with the knob on the stereo. My father asks him to stop. My brother plays with it again. My father spanks hi , puts him in the corner. It takes a few times for the lesson to really stick. My brother was always a bit of a rebel.
Now, the alternatives might seem obvious to you. They are obvious to be, an early childhood educator. If your kid throws food on the floor, remove the food. Reintroduce the food when the kid is ready to eat. Perhaps introduce a game where we throw stuff with a spoon, but in a different setting, to really differentiate between play time and mealtimes.
If your kid plays with the knobs on your stereo, either set up your space in such a way as to make the stereo inaccessible to your kid, or do not leave tour kid unsupervised in the same room as the stereo. Provide your child with knobs he is allowed to turn.
These solutions may seem obvious to you, but they certainly weren’t obvious to my dad, and I’ll bet there will be several people here who would not find these solutions obvious either.
Take care of yourself, Spencer. I hope you can remember that there are people who care about you and value you. I do, and others here do too. I know that doesn’t help too much in the moment, but just remember to stay safe and give yourself space and time.
Well first I’ve got lengthy diatribes about how “you’re not allowed to call it abuse because I was spanked and I don’t think it’s abuse” and that if you call spanking abuse then, actually, you’re just trying to be woke on the internet or something, on top of how it’s a moral obligation to patiently explain to someone doing wrong the exact hows and whys of their wrongdoing or else they’ll keep doing it because they’re helpless to the slightest change and hearing “you’re hurting me” isn’t sufficient in perfectly kind and decent people. Now that’s been joined with “kids today are spoiled” and “Joyce is going to beat her kids.”
And the last like seven hours I’ve been caught in a loop where I got too real here and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about how my mother and stepfather could have physically beaten me and I still would have justified it as I did everything else that happened to me, and if I didn’t then someone else would do it for me.
So I should probably go touch grass because I’m letting names attached to cartoon pictures control my feelings again.
Yes. Do touch grass. Lots of grass. Please.
In the words of T-Rex, from Dinosaur Comics, “We need to touch grass.” (Can’t find the citation, for some reason, but it was about not needing to die on a certain hill.)
🥺 Spencer, you have my greatest sympathy. So sorry you had to go through that!
To people arguing wether Joyce is fine or not fine I say she’s not fine because the way she talks, she could very well do that to her own children. I’m not saying she will but “what else are you supposed to do” is a red flag.
I’m more in the “she’s fine but needs to educate herself”. She’s not traumatized by it, it’s not something getting in the way of her life or affecting her relationship with her parents or anything (I mean, there’s a fuckton affecting her relationship with her parents, this is just not one of those things).
She needs to learn that spanking is not okay, both for the harm it does to the child and their relationship with their parents and also because it’s just a shitty form of punishment in the first place, before she has children… but that’s not really a concern right now.
She needs a calm, friendly discussion about why spanking is bad that doesn’t impart judgement on anyone who’s been duped by society in general, absolutely. She doesn’t seem to need therapy or anything for it, at least based on what we’ve seen in this regard.
Is she fine if she didn’t process that what happened to her is not fine and shouldn’t be done to anyone?
Ignorance is bliss?
My point is just to separate Joyce’s situation from Becky’s. With Joyce, it’s a thing that happened, and isn’t affecting her relationship with anyone or her life or anything. It’s something she’ll need to address if she’s ever in a parental or guardianship position, absolutely, but that’s a long ways away.
With Becky, it is affecting her in an ongoing sense, she’s in a sort of perpetual cringe about doing things she knows that entities she’s used to being in authority might disapprove of. It’s something that addressing now would do a good job of improving her life and mental health.
I should note that, even with Joyce, we’re dealing with, what, three strips obliquely talking about it? With Joyce half-asleep for a lot of it? Entirely possible that a later strip where she’s fully awake shows more warning signs. But there’s a different between “potentially traumatic thing happened to a person” and “a person is traumatized”.
Human minds are weird. Situations are weird. Specifics get weird. Complexity of life and all that.
Well I need to agree with you that she doesn’t seem traumatized. I just don’t feel “not traumatized” is enough to qualify as “being fine”. It sets the bar really low. Also the more fine she feels about this, the more dangerous it is for her to do the same.
Yeah, it’s hard to really get a grasp on what “fine” really means in the long-term.
Most everyone could use more therapy. I just tend to say someone is “fine” if the issues they do have (because everyone has issues, yes, everyone, even you Steve, you’re not paranoid, I can see through the internet, put on a shirt already!) isn’t harming anyone, isn’t getting in the way of their lives, isn’t causing problems, if they’re under control and/or benign.
Hence why I’m emphasizing Joyce’s status as a non-parent. If she were a parent, or in a position where she were giving advice to parents, then it would sharply turn into “not-fine”, depending on how much she had internalized it.
Again, most people could use more therapy. Joyce certainly could, and if I were in the comic I’d certainly be suggesting it (although more for the whole *frantic gesturing at everything pre-time-skip* first and foremost). But Becky *needs* therapy on this subject, because it is getting in the way.
But it’s arguing over definitions, for the most part, which is something I hate doing because it tends to confuse points rather than clarify them. I fully get what you mean there, you’re absolutely right that “not traumatized” is a fucking low bar to set and we should do better overall.
Let’s say it appears at the moment to be way down on the list of reasons she’s not fine and the list of things she needs therapy for.
It’s possible that as she digs into that list with therapy, she’ll discover this is higher than she knew, but for the moment it’s not at all where I’d start.
I kind of feel an affinity for this discussion, although i don’t disagree with anyone here.
It’s just this idea of “people saying they’re fine”, when you have (sparse) evidence you should maybe be worried. It’s just suddenly boosting the frequency of this low hum of grief i have in the background.
I lost a friend in February. She was doing fine. She was doing pretty great even. Her mental health had been steady and well-treated like never before, she was sober, she was focused, she was enjoying her studies and planning for her future. Our conversations were livelier and longer than ever, she never ran out of smart thoughts to share or books to recommend or recently-attended lectures to explain for the lay but curious friend (me).
And then she died of a methadone overdose. we learned she’d been self-medicating recklessly for a while, had been using for weeks, had been basically deluding herself and everyone around her (after cutting off her girlfriend who demanded she get treatment for her addictions). Was she fine? We think she was just so tired of struggling against herself, that she just decided to be carefree, and forget about the poison inside her. So in a sense yeah. She was actually fine.
In another sense, well, she’s dead now.
So… yup. Being “fine” can mean different things for different lives.
Any parallel between this story and anyone’s point, or the comic, is purely coincidental. be kind to me <3
oh, milu. I hope you always have kindness. You deserve kindness. You need it and are worthy of it. I hope we folks will always be as kind as we can.
I am so sorry about your friend. It’s so hard to lose a friend, especially when you thought she was doing well. So hard.
My heart is with you in your grief. <3 <3 <3
We all need kindness around us.
awwww thank you so much Laura. <3 <3 <3
i'm genuinely not sure if it is worse to lose someone when you thought (and they themself thought) they were doing well.
I think beyond the sickening feelings of waste and loss there's a sense for me of, "at least she had a few really good months". Because in spite of her relapse, which she wouldn't have been proud of, she was actually living her best life for the first time in a while. I will treasure those last few months despite feeling just a bit guilty for not seeing the signs, because she was beautiful and cheerful and inspiring like never before. Was that energy and beauty built on delusion and denial? It would seem so. It was real just the same, though.
My parents did hit me/pinch me when I was a kid (though barehanded, and never with a wooden spoon or a ruler or anything) as discipline, and I recognize that it’s wrong to do to a kid, though when I was Joyce’s age I would have defended the act so it did take me some time to fully realize that corporal punishment is not okay. I don’t resent my parents for doing it though. It was very much normalized in their home country even if when I was growing up in the US (in the 2000s) it was largely frowned upon. I think I’m fine but I recognize that it could have screwed me up in ways I’m unaware of.
It’s amazing how much the world has changed since this comment began. Like, we always knew beating children was bad, but I feel like it didn’t quite become mainstream knowledge that it permanently inflicts psychological harm and that we have firm, objective, scientific evidence of this until, like, 2019. I don’t remember seeing anyone actually mortified about spankings back in 2012.
What else is amazing, though, is how well this comic has aged. It really does feel like the present the whole way through, from the very first strip, even though I struggle to imagine any other story that, say, started in the ’80s but somehow still felt ‘current’ in 1995.
So as far as I can see, there are 2 topics lately that have distinctly led to 200+ comments of debate and intense emotion
1) Christian religious trauma
2) spanking as punishment
What are the other intense topics so far?
We were reliably over 600 when Joyce and Becky argued about religion.
I promise I’ll make a robot to get the top comments days. I remember these cases:
– The Joshua/Joceline revelation (plus 1000 comments).
– Carla x Mary (from 800 to closed comments).
The Sal/Amber fight peaked at over 800 as well and was a couple weeks at 300+
Golly I was underselling it with 200. There have been some intense comment sections.
You got that right!
Care to take a small break from the intensity and tell me your favorite sauce for your McNuggets? 🤪
I’m in aus so don’t know how it compares but gotta go with sweet and sour
Always a favorite in my book!
What about hotdogs?
The last of the strips with John in it broke 1200.
Somebody did have a script or something that listed all the longest ones at one point.
Hello! Long-time reader, first-time commenter, chiming in on the anti-“physical discipline” side.
This is from a bit of a different perspective: when I was 11-22 (more frequently when younger) I would be physically abusive to my parents and brother, hitting them when I got angry. I had undiagnosed ADHD and temper problems but that was no excuse – I knew what I was doing was wrong.
Still, it was still frightening to me when my mother decided she’d spank me with a wooden spoon, as if that would scare me into behaving. I was 13. I ran into the other room, frightened and crying out. It didn’t end up hurting that much, but the idea that one of my parents would chase me with what I thought of as a weapon disturbed me.
So, although I “deserved” such a thing more than Joyce or Becky ever did, it didn’t solve my temper problem and just added to the mutual distrust.
My mom never threatened me with violence or spanking, but one of my sisters had bad anger issues and would often tell me “you’re lucky you’re not my child” with varying punishments. She’s gotten a little better over the years, n3ver once physically attacked me though so that’s something??
People are saying things on the internet that upset me. This is my alternative to arguing with them. It is not very gratifying, but less likely to be embarrassing in retrospect.
Glad to hear that Joyce is fine
My mother respected my intelligence and integrity enough to lecture me when I did bad stuff, I like to think that’s more normal in our society
First time commenter here, I just binged this entire thing in about a week… Really wanna see Joshua come out to Joyce at some point.
Also, I like the honest discussions that seem to be taking place in the comment sections. Some other time I might join in.
Hey, welcome to the comic! Just a heads up that we (generally, preferably) refer to Jocelyne by her name. The characters might not know that’s her name, but we do.
Hi, Saida. Welcome here.
Welcome to the comments section Saida!!!
With all due honesty, things discussions around here usually aren’t as serious as they have been for the past few days — the stuff that’s going on here right now is really more the exception then the rule.
Regardless, it’s always fun around here!
We’re a very diverse community, always here to offer support when you need it!
Also great music!!!
*plays “Seahorse Dreams” by Kubbi on Hacked Muzak*
I’ll honest your discussion, punk.
Welcome to Real-Time Fan Debate.
Trigger warnings implied by the comic itself, of course, but… I would like to place a big old “Trigger Warning” blanket over these while discussions of the past few days. Please be gentle with yourselves, reading this. Take breaks, look away when you can. Remember that none of this is your fault.
Please take what steps you can to stay safe.
I am not a mental health professional. I don’t have all the right words to say and not make things worse. But I do care and many others in community care, too. I hope each one of use can reach out to someone caring if we want or need help or a listening ear.
Infodumps (links and phone numbers) are my love language, and I know they are not useful most of the time. But if anyone needs help, in the US or Canada at least, I recommend calling 211. It’s not 911. It’s a 2-country network of social service directories. And that includes for emotional support. I hope they can point you in the direction of useful help if you could use it.
Stay safe out there, and in here.
Hey, you’re such a pillar, Laura. you’re such a darling. Thank you for all the thoughtfulness and care you spread around here. it makes this nook of the internet that much less scary, that much more welcoming <3
Oh, no, not a pillar, milu. I can’t hold up a single wall. Because I’m often not here. Nobody should depend on me to be here because my spoons are spotty and often absent.
But I am glad to be here right now, sharing this space with you. Thank you for being a good friend here and in the world.
I mean a good friend to the community in the world. I don’t know you IRL or offline. Sorry, that came out sounding weird.
Thank you, so much Laura, for being here!!! 🥹
yeah sorry, didn’t mean to ascribe some sort of mission or anything to you. you do seem to be around a lot lately, just being thoughtful and expressing care for this space and the people in it, and it means a lot to me. I like to think you inspire me and hopefully others to be a bit kinder and more supportive of each other, so that this vibe lingers when you’re not around. =)
Happy dance, happy dance to milu and the Wellerman! Sparkles and warm fuzzies!
Thank you buddies. <3
I do like the strips where theres no right or wrong answer.
Growing up I was spanked and sometimes hit which, with the benefit of hindsight, didn’t do me any lasting harm and, at the time, worked (by worked means it stopped me doing the things I was doing which I shouldn’t have been doing) and I’ve got no issues with it
Except the last time when I was 14 and was left with Tinnitus
My Father had been made redundant at a time when a lot of working class people were being let off (in the US it was called Reaganomics, in the UK it was Thatcherism and in NZ it was Rogernomics), and so had a lot of time at home and he decided that it was imperative he take a much active role in my education (spoiler he didn’t help and only hindered)
As part of that he decided that a spare room would be my homework room which was fine but it was also used as storage and there were a lot of old rugby books, rugby magazines, Giles annuals etc etc
So rather than do homework (which is boring) I read other more interesting or funny books instead
My Father saw this and as I was engrossed with what I was reading I didn’t notice him come into the room and so he decided that the best way to motivate me to do my homework was 5 open hand strikes (he was a big guy and I was a skinny kid) to my ears (hence the Tinnitus)
I now know why the reasons behind what he did (to a point) in that he had lost his job and therefore identity, didn’t know how to parent, probably realised that leaving a whole bunch of books in there was tempting but didn’t want to admit he was wrong to leave them and certainly didn’t like his authority being challenged
The problem is that it didn’t teach me anything except to pretend I was doing my homework and just sit there for 30 minutes and say its all done (he never actually got that involved that he would check my homework) and after that I deliberately didn’t do any homework or finish projects or anything of the sort and so my grades fell and I left high school with poor grades
I don’t know if theres a point to this or if its a form of therapy but there it is
Hey. BubbaFett.
I just wanted you to know that your story helped me.
Thank you.
I’m sorry it happened to you.
Hearing you placing these things in their historical context… it made things make more sense to me. I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate you. I appreciate your courage for sharing that.
After I read your comment, I called up my old man, and we had a good talk. I think it helped us. I am grateful to you for inspiring that call.
Tossing my hat into the ring here, but I do absolutely view it as abusive and traumatizing. I was spanked. It feels odd to me when people tell me they don’t see it in that way a lot of the time, because the very addendum people usually make “But I would never do it to my own kid.” Shows they know it negatively impacted them to that extent.
Well, this is a rather sensitive subject. And tricky. If you insist that someone went through trauma and they don’t agree, you’re just gonna wind up upsetting them to a degree and at the most extreme, having them probably lash out or cut you from their life forever.
Because I figure it’s gotta be insulting in a way. Or they feel insulted.